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PressureTankSizing
WaterTankDesign
TankAirPump

SizingTankOverflowLine
StartedbyOliz,Nov28201402:30AM
overflowline,

gravityflow,

storagetanks,

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Oliz

I'vegotatasktorecheckanexistingtank'soverflowprotectionsincetheoldpumpsupplyingthetankhasbeenreplacedby
twonewones.

Thetankreceivesoilywaterandisusedasasettletankwherethewaterflowstothewatertreatmentfacilitiesandtheoilis
skimmedoff.Thetankisanatmospherictankwithfloatingroof.Theoverflowlinehasasyphonbreakatitstopandthesizeof
thelineis14"(I.D=0,3398m)bothupstreamanddownstreamofsyphonbreak.Themaximuminflowfromthepumpsis700
m3/h.

Icameacrossanoldpost(http://www.cheresour...overflowline/(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/topic/15663
sizingtankoverflowline/))whichhadalotofgoodinformationbutIamstillnottotallyclearifIhaveunderstoodthe
problemcorrectly.

Basedonequation3inP.DHillsarticleaboutgravityflow,hiscalculatedasfollows:

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h>0.811*(QL)2/(g*d4)=0,811*(700/3600)2 /(9,81*0,33984)=0,234m(2,29kPa)

Ialsocalculatedthepressuredropfromtheinletoftheoverflowpipetothetopbasedondarcyweisbachequation(justfor
comparison)andgotaresultof5.21kPawhichequals0,532m.

BasedonthecalculatedheightsIdrawthefollowingconclusions.

1.IfthemaximumlevelofthefloatingroofisabovetheheightoftheUbend+theheightcalculatedabovetherewillbeno
problem.

2.Ifthemaximumheightisnothighenough,thenthefloatingroofmustbeabletohandleatleast2,29kPag(or5.21kPag
basedondarcyweisbach)causedbyliquidpushingupwardsonthefloatingroof.Atthispressurethefullinflowcanbe
accomodatedintheoverflowline.

Nextthing,istocheckthefroudenumber.AsdefinedbyP.DHillsitiscalculatedlikethis:

JL<(2*h/d)0.5=(2*0,234/0,3398)0.5=1,175

FromthisIdrawtheconclusionthattheflowisnotselfventingandairwillbesuckedinthroughthesyphonbreakwhichinmy
applicationdoesnotmatter.

Anycomments?HaveIunderstoodtheproblemandthetheorycorrectly?

AttachedFiles
(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/index.php?
app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=9298)overflowline.pdf
(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=9298)
37.03KB109downloads

Posted28November201406:40AM

katmar

Equation3fromtheHillsarticleisforthecasewhentheoverflowoutletisatthesurfaceleveloftheliquid,andtheliquid
overflowsdirectlyintotheoutlet.YouroutletistotallysubmergedsoEquation3doesnotapply.AsfarasIcansee,youhave
appliedtheDarcyWeisbachanalysiscorrectly.YourflowsarequitehighforthepipediametersyouhavesoIwould
recommendasubstantiallysizedsiphonbreak.

Posted28November201406:50AM

Oliz

katmar,on28Nov20142:50PM,said:
Equation3fromtheHillsarticleisforthecasewhentheoverflowoutletisatthesurfaceleveloftheliquid,andtheliquidoverflowsdirectly
intotheoutlet.YouroutletistotallysubmergedsoEquation3doesnotapply.AsfarasIcansee,youhaveappliedtheDarcyWeisbach
analysiscorrectly.YourflowsarequitehighforthepipediametersyouhavesoIwouldrecommendasubstantiallysizedsiphonbreak.

Thankyouforyourreply.So,iwillusetheheightandpressurevaluescalculatedfromthedarcyweisbachequationinsteadof
equation3.Thesiphonbreakinstalledis3".Isthereawaytocalculatethesizerequiredorismorebasedonrulesofthumbs?I
guesswhatlimitsyouisthatifthepressuredropinthesiphonbreakistoolargeduetolargeamountsofairbeeingsuckedin
basedonthehighfroudenumber,thesiphonbreakmightnotworkandthereisariskforthesiphoneffectatleastforashort
periodoftime.

Posted01December201410:32AM

katmar

Idonotknowofareliableandprovenwayofsizingsiphonbreakvents,andIsuspectthatyouarecorrectinthatmostare
sizedbyrulesofthumborbygutfeel.ThereisagroupattheKoreannuclearresearchfacilitythathasdonealotofworkover
theyearsbuttheirresultsdon'tseemtohavereachedthepointofhavingarobustdesignmethodyet.Asearchontheterm
"soonhokangsiphonbreak"willgiveyousomeusefulhits.
UsuallyItrytodesignthistypeofUsealwiththedownlegbeingselfventing.Inthiscasetheliquidlevelinthedownlegis
fairlyconstantandverylittleairflowsinoroutoftheventandarelativelysmallventisadequate.Butthisobviouslyresultsin
largepipingwhentheflowsarelargeandthisapproachisnotalwayspracticaloreconomic.
ForlargeflowsandnonselfventingdownlegsthewayIsizeventsisroughlyasfollowsYouwantthesiphontobreakwhen

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thesurfacelevelinthetankreachesthetopoftheUseal,i.e.whenyourdimension"h"becomeszero.Infacthwillbecome
slightlynegativebecauseforairtoflowintotheUsealthepressureinitmustbelessthanatmospheric.Thisnegativevalueof
hiscalledthe"undershoot".Ifyouselecttheundershootthatyouwantthenthisdefinesthepressureintheairspaceatthe
topoftheUseal.Ifthevolumetricflowofairthroughthesiphonbreakventmatchesthevolumetricflowofliquidinthe
downlegoftheUsealthennoliquidwouldflowfromthetankandthesiphonwouldbebroken.
Thepressuredropoverthesiphonbreakventisdefinedbythedifferencebetweenatmosphericpressureandtheundershoot
pressure.ThemaximumvolumetricflowofthewatercanbecalculatedknowingtheheightoftheUsealandthelengthof
piping(anditsfittings)andtheairflowwouldbethesameinvolumetricterms.Knowingthepressuredropandflowratefor
theventallowsyoutocalculatetherequireddiameterfortheventpipe.
ComparingmymethodwiththeresultspublishedbytheKoreangroupindicatesthatthisisafairlyconservative(i.e.safe)
approachbecauseinfactairisalreadystartedtobedrawninbeforetheundershootpressureisreachedandyoucangetaway
withasmallervent.Asyoumaketheventsmallerandsmallerthetimetakentobreakthesiphongetslongerandlongeruntila
sizeisreachedwherethesiphonwouldneverbebroken.Ihavenotfoundawaytopredictthedelayinbreakingthesiphonasa
functionoftheventsizeandsoIusemyconservativeapproach.
Ifyoucomeacrossanyotherdesignmethodpleaseshareithereasthisisacommonproblem,butonethathasnoclear
answer.

Posted08December201407:55AM

Oliz

katmar,on01Dec20146:42PM,said:
Idonotknowofareliableandprovenwayofsizingsiphonbreakvents,andIsuspectthatyouarecorrectinthatmostaresizedbyrulesof
thumborbygutfeel.ThereisagroupattheKoreannuclearresearchfacilitythathasdonealotofworkovertheyearsbuttheirresultsdon't
seemtohavereachedthepointofhavingarobustdesignmethodyet.Asearchontheterm"soonhokangsiphonbreak"willgiveyousome
usefulhits.
UsuallyItrytodesignthistypeofUsealwiththedownlegbeingselfventing.Inthiscasetheliquidlevelinthedownlegisfairlyconstantand
verylittleairflowsinoroutoftheventandarelativelysmallventisadequate.Butthisobviouslyresultsinlargepipingwhentheflowsare
largeandthisapproachisnotalwayspracticaloreconomic.
ForlargeflowsandnonselfventingdownlegsthewayIsizeventsisroughlyasfollowsYouwantthesiphontobreakwhenthesurfacelevel
inthetankreachesthetopoftheUseal,i.e.whenyourdimension"h"becomeszero.Infacthwillbecomeslightlynegativebecauseforairto
flowintotheUsealthepressureinitmustbelessthanatmospheric.Thisnegativevalueofhiscalledthe"undershoot".Ifyouselectthe
undershootthatyouwantthenthisdefinesthepressureintheairspaceatthetopoftheUseal.Ifthevolumetricflowofairthroughthe
siphonbreakventmatchesthevolumetricflowofliquidinthedownlegoftheUsealthennoliquidwouldflowfromthetankandthesiphon
wouldbebroken.
Thepressuredropoverthesiphonbreakventisdefinedbythedifferencebetweenatmosphericpressureandtheundershootpressure.The
maximumvolumetricflowofthewatercanbecalculatedknowingtheheightoftheUsealandthelengthofpiping(anditsfittings)andthe
airflowwouldbethesameinvolumetricterms.Knowingthepressuredropandflowratefortheventallowsyoutocalculatetherequired
diameterfortheventpipe.
ComparingmymethodwiththeresultspublishedbytheKoreangroupindicatesthatthisisafairlyconservative(i.e.safe)approachbecause
infactairisalreadystartedtobedrawninbeforetheundershootpressureisreachedandyoucangetawaywithasmallervent.Asyoumake
theventsmallerandsmallerthetimetakentobreakthesiphongetslongerandlongeruntilasizeisreachedwherethesiphonwouldneverbe
broken.IhavenotfoundawaytopredictthedelayinbreakingthesiphonasafunctionoftheventsizeandsoIusemyconservative
approach.
Ifyoucomeacrossanyotherdesignmethodpleaseshareithereasthisisacommonproblem,butonethathasnoclearanswer.

Thankyouagainforverygoodinformation.IreadthatarticlefromtheKoreanresearchgroupwhichexplainedthe
phenomenaverywell(http://www.google.co....80642063,d.bGQ(http://www.google.com/url?

sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fptop.only.wip.la%3A443%2Fhttp%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FHo_Seon_Ah

scaled_research_reactor_pool%2Flinks%2F02e7e534bb4d73eee1000000&ei=Q6KFVMq8KsTnywOpwIH4Dg&usg=AFQjCNGf5sseHNO3HfWP
)

Iwilltrytoexplainmythoughtprocess.

AtthemomentwhenthepressuredropintheUtubeisovercome,i.e.whenthelevelinthetankishmetersabovetheUtube
centerline,waterwillstartsiphoningoutofthetank.Duetothepressuredrop,therewillbeanegativepressureatthetopof
theUtube.Theflowratewillbeatitshighestshortlyafterthestartofoutflow.Thepressuredropduetoflowofwaterwill
resultinanegativeabsolutepressureatthetopoftheUtube,decreasinginthebeginningasthelevelinthetankdecreases.In
thearticletheprocessisdividedin4stages.AttheendofstageA,justwhentheinflowofairwillstarttohaveaneffectonthe
pressuredropinthedownwardpipe,theabsolutepressurewillbeatitslowestatthetopoftheUtube.Thispressurewill
actuallybeslightlylowerthanthe5.21kPagcalculatedaboveduetotheeffectoflowerliquidlevelinthetank.

Duetothenegativepressure,airwillbesuckedinandbecomeentrainedintheliquiddownwardpipeandwillresultinlarger
andlargerpressuredropinthedownwardpipehinderingtheflowofwater.Atonepoint,theamountofairsuckedin

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comparedtotheliquidflowislargeenoughtobreakthesiphon.

Asaresultoftheresearchteamnothavingaflowmeteronthesiphonbreakertomeasuretheair/waterratiowhenthesiphon
brokeinthedifferentexamplesI'lluseyourruleofthumb.

Aslongasthepressuredropfortherequiredairflow(inthiscasein700m3/hwhichisequaltothemaximumliquidinflow)
throughthesiphonbreakerislowerthan5.21kPag,enoughairwillbeabletobesuckedintobreakthesiphonwithminimal
undershootonlydependantonthetransientnatureofthebackpressureinthedownwardpipe.Inmycase,thesiphonbreaker
isa550mmpipe(ID=107.1mm)withtwo90degreeLRelbowsforminga180degreebend.Icalculatedtheairflow@a
pressuredropof5.21kPagto3,900Nm3/hwhichismuchlargerthantherequiredflowsobasedonthisIthinkthatthe
siphonislargeenoughforthiscase.

Iftheinstalledsiphonbreakeristoosmall,theundershootwillnotonlybedependantonthetransientnatureofthe
backpressureinthedownwardpipecausedbyairinflowbutalsoonthelevelinthetankthatwillneedtodecreasetoacertain
levelbeforeyouwillreachyourdesiredinflowofair.

EditedbyOliz,08December201407:56AM.

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