-=-=-=-=-=-===

MISC
-=-=-=-=-=-===

Dave

I just took a look on ebay to see what you bought. The van looks about
in the same shape as mine, but from the pictures I see a couple of
things that you should check out. I noticed both behind the main
battery box on either side of the small rear battery box that contains
one traction battery and the accessory battery.

First, I see an empty air hose on the right side. This hose should have
a blower on it that runs during the charge cycle to clear out the
hydrogen gas that generated. Without the blower there is danger of
explosion, so this is a safety issue.

Second, I see some odd wiring on the left side. This is the location of
the safety disconnect. In the motor control circuit there is the actual
electronic controller, a safety contactor that opens / closes just off
zero throttle, and a manual safety disconnect that can be used if both
the controller and the contactor fail. On a stick shift, the disconnect
isn't absolutely critical since the clutch can be depressed ant the
motor allowed to fly apart. However, you probably should be sure that
the disconnect is there and working.

...My van is 1979 and things may have changed by 1981. My owner's manual
says 50 miles top range. It is closer to 30 miles in my experience.
Your batteries and motor look the same as mine, but perhaps the
controller is better. The seller says the controller was "specifically
designed to propel full sized motor vehicles." My controller is a GE
EV-1 which is a fork lift controller. Only the external wiring was
modified to make it appropriate for a motor vehicle.
--------------------------

====================================

Hi Mike (and all)

From someone who has the strongest tendency to DIY imaginable, for most things in
a full-sized EV, it is not worth the risk to build most things from scratch.

That said, the next best thing to DIY, is scrounge and make-do. That is where it
gets fun. 144V system? wreck a 72V forklift and put two contactors in series to
get the voltage rating on the contacts. Control a boost/buck transformer to trim
rectified (US) mains to control the charging.

Motor from a forklift, with modification (and buy a Zilla controller to look after
it with the money saved). Or use a robust motor such as a 9" and build your own
controller.

Find your local industrial junk dealers and haunt their yards. I have acquired:
Fuses, fuse holders, copper bar, cable, heatshrink tubing, amp and volt meters,
current shunts, motors, fans, auxiliary relays, relay bases, cable glands,
Industrial terminals, GE EV1 (SCR) controller, contactors, traction battery
chargers.

In addition I could have had: rubber sheet (to go under the batteries), fibreglass
boxes (to make battery boxes from), traction batteries (the heavy long-life type)
and other stuff.

James

-=-=-=-=-=========
MOTOR
-=-=-=-=-=========

----------------------------------------------
--------------------
apparently 80k miles is expected life of motor brushes. (or 3000 hours)
--------------------
----------------------------------------------
* From: Robb Zuk <[email protected]>
* Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:18:36 -0700
* Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
* Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

Hi All,

Thanks in advance for info on where to buy an appropriate

commutator stone and instructions on how best to use it.

It's time to replace the brushes in my GE motor (stock Jet

Electravan / Subaru 600) and I'd like to give the commutator a
proper cleaning. Last time I did this I used 1500 grit sandpaper
while turning the motor via the wheel and gearbox. I think
perhaps using a commutator stone while running the motor would be
better and easier?

Robb Zuk
Wanted: Commutator Stone and Instructions

--------------------------------------
Subject: Wanted: Brushes for GE 20 hp
Comments: To: [email protected], [email protected]

Where is a good place to get replacement brushes for my GE 20 hp? It's in a stock
Jet Electravan / Subaru 600 and as near as I can tell, the motor plate reads:
Model: 5BT1346838 HP: 20.9 SERIES V: 90 134 LR8-553LR RPM: 3707 BV CL M Duty 1 HR
140c The old ones are now down to 1 mm (1/16") from the rivet holes. Thanks, Robb
Zuk

One more thing...

The old brushed are marked (or were marked :)

JR456

Robb Zuk

---------------------------------------------------
* Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
* Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

Hi, all

I just got a new set of brushes for my GE motor (the 37 hp unit

originally used by Jet in their pickup and van conversions)

Price was $97.

Given that I paid 700 bucks for the motor, adapter plate, hub, bell
housing and clutch in the first place, it's a non-trivial sum.

Is this reasonable? I've never bought anything like this, so I have

nothing to compare.

Thanks

Russell Groves
Price of New Brushes

--
Russell, I paid $65 for a set of four brushes for the little 11hp GE
motor my Voltswabit has in it. Sounds like you're in the ballpark.

Bob Oldham
Re: Price of New Brushes
--
My contact for my GE motor and Brushes are which was a while back.

General Electric
Box 1316, Northland Center Station
South Field, MI 48075

1-313-552-3000

Bought two sets of spare brushes which is 8-each per set or total of 16
brushes. These cost me about $500.00 back then. These are like tool steel
and still running the originals on the back section on the commentator while
the front section worn down only 1 inch from a 2 inch long brush.

Roland
-------------------
2-6-05
Otmar,

I just recently had to find brushes for my Elec-trac GE sep-ex motor.

I called Repco, talked to Scott Tussey, and he dug up the right
brushes for me. He was VERY helpful and knowledgeable. He said he's
been selling brushes since '72. I highly recommend him:

http://www.repcoinc.com
Repco Inc.
6 Eves Dr,
Marlton NJ 08053
Scott Tussey
1-800-822-9190
.
.
.
Thanks a bunch Markus,
Your lead turned out to be the best one for me.
I just ordered a set of brushes from Scott, he was very knowledgeable about them.

If anyone needs brushes, these guys know their stuff and had the best prices as
well.

-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.

http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914

-------------------------------------
-----------------------
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Range
Comments: To: [email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi Mike, Which motor do you have ? Brushes are supposed to last 3000 hours
according the an engineer at Prestolite. I had one set of brushes that lasted less
than 1000 hours. The wire leading to the brush just vaporized. The Prestolite
engineer said it was a manufacturing defect and sent me a complete new set for
free. I have not had a problem since. Are you possibly hot footing around, drawing
more than the rated amps of the motor and thereby wearing out the brushes
prematurely ?? Menlo Park III, Bill ______

---------------------
--------------------------------------------------
From: Robb Zuk <[email protected]>
Subject: Wanted: Brushes for GE 20 hp
Comments: To: [email protected], [email protected]

Where is a good place to get replacement brushes for my GE 20 hp? It's in a stock
Jet Electravan / Subaru 600 and as near as I can tell, the motor plate reads:
Model: 5BT1346838
HP: 20.9
SERIES V: 90 134 LR8-553LR
RPM: 3707 BV CL M Duty 1 HR 140c
The old ones are now down to 1 mm (1/16") from the rivet holes. Thanks, Robb Zuk
One more thing...
The old brushed are marked (or were marked :)

JR456

---------------------
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Range
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Bill, I have the GE motor. (3000 hours) X (30 miles / hour) = 90000 miles No, I
don't hotfoot. When you commute 20 miles with a range not much greater, you drive
conservatively. Short of taking the motor to a shop which may not know how to deal
with it anyhow, how can I check the motor efficiency? Thanks, Mike
--------------------
Ricky,

Can you provide all of the data on the nameplate?

I probably donated that system to your school when I worked at GE (1993-1996).
Using a fan is dependant on the ambient temperature and vehicle weight (along with
many other factors).
If it is the 96V series wound motor, it will have a thermal switch built in that
you can use to activate a fan only when the motor is hot. I wrote an article that
I gave to high schools and college's for installation guidelines. I will try and
find this and forward it to you. I also have speed torque curves for the 96V
motor I can send. This will be very helpful for determining optimum shift points
for efficiency and power.

=================

>So process of elimination here, if I just hook the

>> field in series with the armerature and use jumper
>> cables and hook it up to a 12 volt battery I should
>> at least be able to get the motor to spin right?

Nope!!!
Connect the F1 and F2 terminals FIRST to 12Vdc, it
should only draw a couple of amps or less.
Then connect A1 and A2 to 12V (the combination doesn't
matter).
Make sure all other connections are off the motor
(control etc.).
This may seem confusing, but here is an example of a
series motor;
+12Vdc S1---S2--A1---A2 -12Vdc
Shunt/sepex connection
+12Vdc F1---A1 -12Vdc F2---A2
The field on this motor has �12Vdc and so does the
Armature.

Regarding the initial hookup; Even if you swapped

F1/F2 or A1/A2 it should just turn the wrong
direction, not blow things up. Where did you get this
aftermarket motor? When I worked at GE every motor
for EV's had class H insulation (including all of the
forklifts, this is standard). You may also measure
resistance between motor frame and terminals to see if
there is a short.
Rod

-----------

The first thing you can do, is to clean the motor while it is in place and
running! Yes, I said running.

Go to a motor shop and pick up some motor cleaning solution, the type which
is a dielectric type. I have clean all types of motors, while running in
place. You can even fill a cleaning tank with this cleaner and submerse
running motors in it.

This works, if the motor has some exhaust air grills on the end or bottom of
the motor. After you clean the motor. Then test it out to see what the
results are.

Before you clean the motor, you should take a resistance test of the input
motor leads to motor chassis, voltage and ampere readings of the motor.

After you clean the motor, repeat these test to see if there is a
difference. On my motor, I will see a difference of resistance to ground of
50K ohm before cleaning and 20M ohm after cleaning.

When you at a motor shop, you can get some commentator cleaning stones and
maybe under cutting tools. This is the next step, if you have some arcing.
Also brush spring tension should be look at.

After you clean and maybe stoning the commentator, than you again spray the
motor while running with a dielectric compound that lubricated all moving
parts, which may be degraded by the the initial cleaning.

The electronics cleaning compounds are made by Chemelectronics, normally

found at electronics parts suppliers which is in a spray can that should not
be used on arcing type motors.

The motor cleaning compounds are normally found at some motor shops, is in
fluid form that you used in a spray bottle.

This can be done without removing the motor from the EV.

Roland

----- Original Message -----

From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 7:57 AM
Subject: using a brush motor after long sitting

>> I got some time to do some work on Paul's 2 motor Porsche , when I started
>> it up the one motor made lots of brush sparks , I let it idle for a few
>> minutes , but the arcing didn't go away , This motor worked fine 6 months
>> ago , the car was out side and has seen 2 hurricanes , so dirt or water
>> has
>> been blown in it. I'm thinking that the brushes are not sliding in there
>> holders , motor is in a hard place to get to , . any easy ideas , taking
>> the
>> motor out would not be easy .
>> Steve clunn

--

Hi Steve,Try using a brush seater stone,then blowing out the dust being
careful not to breath the dust. Dennis Berube

----------

Thanks for all the tips ,everybody .

----- Original Message ----- From: "Roland Wiench" >

> Go to a motor shop and pick up some motor cleaning solution,

no real motor shops around my little town , I'll have to send off for this , .Buy
taking out the batteries that are right along side the motor I was able to get
right to the brushes . 2 sets where in so tight they wouldn't come out without a
lot of pulling and wiggling ( the other 2 where also hard to get and I don't think
the spring was moving them) . got them all out and lightly sanded the sides ,
looks like water marks on them . Blow everything out , brushes sliding nice now ,
put it all back and hooked a 6v battery to it and it took right off. Before I
couldn't get it to spin on less that 36v , no arcing , , looks good , .

the type which

> is a dielectric type. I have clean all types of motors, while running in place.
You can even fill a cleaning tank with this cleaner and submerse running motors in
it.

I had some contact cleaner in a spray can that I got from radio shack , I sprayed
it on also ,
Steve Clunn

--------

Steve,
You can get electric motor cleaner and contact cleaner in fairly large cans
at your local Home Depot. It is in the electrical dept. Try to find someone
that has been in the dept for awhile to find it for you, usually only a
couple cans in the run and its often tucked away as its not a fast moving
item. CRC brand IIRC. David Chapman.
---------------
<< Go to a motor shop and pick up some motor cleaning solution,
>>
Reliance Electric, a motor repair shop I worked at for a few years would NOT
use any type of contact cleaners on the armature.The mica on the comm has
natural fissures that you could wash carbon dust into.We would however steam clean
completly disasembled dc motors and then bake .Dennis Berube

---------------

It is best to replace the bearings at that time when you break down a motor.
Go to a motor shop for the bearings. Used seal bearings with high
temperature grease, Normally made by GE or Westinghouse.

While you are there, and if you can take the rotor in, see what they
recommend for undercutting the commentator. You can get your own
undercutting tools and commentator cleaning stones if needed.

Dark is good, you want a dark tan color on the commentator, as long as there
is no deep scratches or a deep recessed in the commentator brush area.

Take a note of the brush type and you may want to order brushes at this
time. The best brushes will be pre curved and just a touch softer than the
commutator. My brushes are as hard as tool steel running on a cast bronze
commentator segments for over 20 years with out replacements.

You may want to have the commentator, micro mirror, which some motor shops
do. It involves taking the surface down to a mirror finish, that increases
the brush life. It does not take so much brush wearing to fill a rough
surface left by lathing or stoning, which is the break in of a commentator,
making it dark tan color.

If you motor does not have a internal fan for cooling, you could add a
blower type fan, by mounting it on the brush covers. My is a 6 inch 12 VDC
Dayton blower fan, that I install a 6 inch diameter carburetor air filter
on.

If your motor is disassemble, that you could paint the inside casing of the
motor. I used appliance epoxy paint that does need any primer. I painted
my motor white in the inside and black on the outside with this paint. Its
very durable and its acid resistance. It made the inside of the motor very
slick for brush dust to be blown out the rear screen grills.

One more resistance test you could do on the motor is the field and rotor to
motor case continuity. When it gets down to 50K Ohms, it is time to clean
the motor from the brush dust that is tracking.

The area on the front of the commentator to the motor shaft, normally tracks
the brush dust and decreases the resistance to ground.

In this area, I painted the front of the commentator down and on the shaft
up to the bearing surfaces with high temperature motor enamel which you can
get from a motor shop in either a spray or can.

The resistance to ground should read over 3 to 20 meg.ohms with a clean

motor.

Roland

------------
No cooling needed... they have thier own internal fans.

blow the crap out of it. Find a 12 volt battery and jumper cables... Run
motor. listen for bad things.
Get some commutator stones from Grainger. Get the 3/8 by 3/8 white stones.
run motor stone motor until the com is prefectly clean. Let run on 12 volts
for about 10 hours.
It should draw less than 30 amps and run at over 1000 rpm on 12 volts. Do
this until the comm gets a light straw color or golden brown. Reinstall. Be
happy.

If you need to pull and inspect all 8 brushes. All should be polished and
show swept marks from leading edge to trailing edge. Replace any that are
cracked chipped or worn much more than others. All 8 should be withing .250
of the length of each other. Look for melted copper brush leads, or loose
and damaged leads.
If the slots have copper or are stuffed full of carbon, scrape it out with a
steel screw driver. Blow out dust.
Then spin it for ever.

It's pretty simple motor service...

==================
Rod Hower
W8RNH
Many folks run these motors at 144 Volts with no problem. A few racers run them
at 192 Volts but start having problems with arcing and overheating the commutator.
These are very conservatively rated motors! The main thing is to not overheat
them or overrev them. At 144 Volts you can get amazing short-term power -- Just
be careful if running up a steep 5 mile grade :)

Robb

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:31:52 -0500, Mark Freidberg wrote:

>>My Van has the original G.E. motor which is rated @ 90 volts.
>>
>>The 16 6 volt T-105 batts = 96v, but really more like 102 volts when fully
>>charged. How many more batts can I add (in new pack) without damaging the
>>motor?

--
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Motor Removal
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Andy, I had my motor out last year for a new clutch. Easy job.
Took me about 20 minutes for the job. You need stands a floor jack and normal
hand tools.
At 12:21 AM 10/11/03 -0700, you wrote:
>I am getting ready to fix up my ElectraVan and get it back on the road
>again.

-------------------
Subject: Re: Motor Removal
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Andy, Not to argue with Rob, but you have to take into account that he is a
mechanic. 20 minutes of his time is somewhat more for me. I have the GE motor and
I don't know if the Prestolite is different. I found that I was not able to get
enough clearance to disengage the motor from the transmission. So, I had to loosen
the transmission. I kept having to get just a little more clearance, and so I kept
having to remove or loosen more transmission stuff until only the shift linkage
and one CV joint was still attached. The second time, I just removed the
transmission to start with. The transmission is light but has a lot of stuff to
disconnect. The motor is very heavy, be careful. Thanks, Mike

-------------------------
Subject: Re: Motor Removal
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Mike I also have the GE motor and did not have any clearance problem
getting the motor out. Removed the wires, the mount bolt on the motor and the
bell housing bolts and out it came. You are correct, it is heavy. Rob.
>
>I have the GE motor and I don't know if the Prestolite is different.

-----------------------
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Motor Removal
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Rob, You may have given me an "Aha." Did you remove the 2 bolts from the motor
housing to the mounting bracket at the brush end of the motor or did you remove
the single bolt that holds the mounting bracket to the frame. I removed the single
bolt and perhaps there is more clearance by removing the two motor bolts instead.
I'm sure that Andy would like to know ... Thanks, Mike

----

Subject: Re: Motor Removal

Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Mike, you are correct! I did remove all 3 bolts and removed the
mounting bracket from the brush end. At 02:54 PM
10/13/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi Rob,
>
>You may have given me an "Aha."

---
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Motor Removal
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Rob, I wonder why it never occurred to me to remove the bracket? I suppose that's
why you are a mechanic and I write software. Thanks for the tip. Mike

---------
====================================
Sorry if I'm coming into this late, but if it's a DC
series wound, you need to seat the brushes correctly.
It's a matter of using a stone, and abrading them with
a slightly concave shape.
The brushes have little springy clip holders, and
they pull to the side and up, then you can pull the
brushes up. The idea is to give them more contact
area.

--- ohnojoe <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I just got my new motor installed in my S-10 (I also

>> have a tracker, which I
>> might be selling soon)
>>
>> Any tips on breaking in the new motor?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Joe

---

Run the motor on about 12 volts for 24 hours to seat the brushes. It is
important to keep the RPM down to a safe level. 12 volts might be too much
for low voltage series motors.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[email protected]

=================================

-------------------------------------
-=-=-=-=-====
CHARGING
-=-=-=-=-====

----------

The charger is fairly easy to remove from the van, but it is heavy, so
you need to think the supports through before you discover that you need
one.

1) Remove the connections. They all have plugs. Tape the wires out of
the way so they don't "hang up" on something.

2) Remove the bumper.

3) Loosen the bolts that hold the charger to the cross member. Loosen
the bolts that holds the cross member.

Two choices:

4a) Support the charger from below and remove the bolts holding the
cross member. Then lower the cross member with the charger attached.

4b) With an assistant to keep things stable, remove the bolts holding
the charger to the cross member. The remove one cross member bolt on
either side so the cross member can pivot. With some maneuvering, the
charger can be tilted toward the rear of the car and then slid back and
down.

Thanks,
Mike

===============================

Most chargers are classified by how the current is controlled.

You have a classic "Variac Charger."

You control the current with the knob on the variac. Be careful. There is no
current until the crest of the AC waveform exceeds the voltage of the
battery then the current rises very quickly.

If you want to implement a two stage or three stage charge profile, you will
need to put a motor on the knob and program a controller to turn the motor
to adjust the knob.

Be sure to fuse and measure the current at the output of the bridge going to
the battery. You should also put a fuse between the variac and the bridge.
If there is a problem, this are where you will need the overcurrent safety.

It would also be appropriate to put a GFCI or isolation transformer on the

input of the variac to reduce the shock hazard. The GFCI is lighter but is
subject to nuisance trips. The isolation transformer is heavier but immune
to nuisance trips. Either one will reduce the hazard. Some people like both.
Others like one or the other. Some people don't mind running without. You
are the designer and you are the user. You make your choice and build it
your way.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[email protected]

---

Hello Dave,

The variac AC voltage input adjustments should vary the DC voltage at 0 amps when
it is not connected to any load or battery. When it is connected to a battery and
the variac is turn all the way down, you should still get 0 volts at 0 amps on the
AC side.

If you have a AC voltmeter on the AC side of the bridge and a DC voltmeter and DC
Amp meter or Shunt and Amp meter on the DC Side, you be able to read the results
which would be 0 volts and 0 amps on the AC side. On the DC side, you will read
the standing battery volts and 0 amps.

Now when you start turning up the variac, you will note that the AC and DC voltage
rises. If a 12 volt battery has a standing voltage of 12.5 on it and you turn up
the voltage where it reads 12.6 volts, than you should see a slight rise of
amperes.

Continue to turn up the variac, you will see that the DC voltage RISE and the DC
ampere will RISE. On a 12 volt battery or for every 12 volt battery, the maximum
voltage you want to go to is about 15.46 volts for a balance charge and 15 volts
for a normal or bulk charge.

The ampere will rise as the voltage rises. On a discharge battery, you may only
get to 13 volts on the DC meter and the ampere could be as high as 20 amps or
more. So you will have to limit your ampere limit with the variac adjustments.

Lets say you set the variac so the AC voltage is at 15 volts or higher and the DC
battery charging current is now at 20 amps and the voltage is at 13 volts, the
voltage will continue to rise while the ampere will drop just like any taper type
charger.

This setup is normally a variable AC voltage type with variable DC voltage and
ampere.

Roland

--
The variac knob controls both current and voltage. On a variac charger,
you should permanently install a voltmeter and an ammeter. Without
meters to know what you're doing, you can easily set the knob to absurd
levels and kill something.

I'd also suggest installing a circuit breaker on the AC input rather

than a fuse. Mis-adjustment of the knob is going to blow the fuse often.
It's much easier to reset a circuit breaker than replace fuses.

Starting with the knob low, the charging current will be zero. As you
turn up the knob, the voltage rises but the current stays at zero until
you reach the point where the charger's voltage exceeds the battery's
voltage. As you turn the knob above this point, the voltage barely
rises, but the current rises quickly.

Charging is an entirely manual process. You crank up the knob until you
get the desired charging current and voltage, and wait the desired time.
You'll have to keep readjusting the knob from time to time as the
battery charges.

--

99% of all battery chargers have little or no filter capacitors. The

ones that do have them to protect the charger -- the batteries
themselves don't care. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that pulsed
charging currents actually improve battery performance.

The only exception is when a large charger is asked to deliver very low
currents -- for example, a large 20-amp charger that is float charging a
very small fully charged battery at 0.2 amps. With no filter capacitors,
the charger is likely to actually be supplying high-current pulses only
a few percent of the time (like 5 amp pulses at a 4% duty cycle = 0.2
amps average). The high peak currents into a fully charged battery cause
extra gassing and grid corrosion.

--

One of the more exciting things you can do with a homemade charger
is to connect it to a battery pack in the wrong polarity. This
will connect the rectifier diodes across the battery pack in the forward-biased
direction and short circuit the battery pack. The
result can be spectacular.

Use an Anderson connector or some other plug/socket setup which

can't be connected wrong to connect the charger to the battery pack.
If you use alligator clips it's just a matter of time until they get
accidentally conected backwards.

--
>Hi all,

<snip>

>> How do I size the variac and bridge rectifier (which is also a shotsky

diode?)? Does the variac have to be sized to the Pack V? If so, how do I
add batteries later to increase pack V, oversize the Variac now?
Make sure the diode is rated for the maximum pack voltage you intend to
charge. The diode needs to be rated for as much as the 1 minute rate on the
variac.

>> How do I make it adjustable for 110 V and 220V input? Will the variac

handle it?

You will need a 240 input variac to use it on 240 VAC. A 120 VAC variac can
be used on half of the 240 and make it a [0 to 140 VAC] or a [120 to 260
VAC] input to the rectifier but you will need to flip a switch for each
configuration.

>> Joe Smalley said to put a V meter and fuse between the Variac and Bridge,

and also a A meter and fuse between the rectifier and pack, and put a GFCI
at the input. Should that be a hardwired GFI circuit breaker? To make it
into a 2 stage charger put a motor/controller on the variac knob.

I intended an ammeter on output of the variac and a voltmeter on the output

of the rectifier. Each of these need to be fused (or breaker) separately for
the case of a rectifier failing shorted. The fuse between the battery and
the line is to prevent a fire from the battery backfeeding into the failed
rectifier. The fuse between the variac and the rectifier is to prevent the
shorted bridge from burning out the variac.

--
In my solar work I occasionally come across work done by amateurs eg
using a thermal overload AC only circuit breaker on a 120V battery bank.
If this ever trips in anger the result will be a Chernobyl and possible
fire.
David Sharpe
--

The way I have always used Variac's is to get to the proper voltage. The current
will start high & go down as the charge cycle ends. It has always provided a full
charge although not as quick as other charger that are more complicated. Very
dependable and once you set it at the right voltage it usually stays there with
little adjustment over time. LR..........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cover" <[email protected]>

--

Yes, you can use 10 individual chargers with isolated outputs. It's been
done, and it work reasonably well IF the individual chargers are
sufficiently reliable.

---

=======================================
I found 2 wheel chair batteries that looks new but where o volts , I charged them
for 2 days with a bad boy charger at 120v in series with a 60 watt light bulb. At
first the light didn't come on and both batteries showed 60v across them , the 2nd
day the light was on and as I had left it sitting on one of the batteries it had
melted the top of one . I did a few cycles and each one gave more ah , I then put
the one in my work truck and its still there working now . I had an idea for
cycling a string of batteries. hook 12 up ( or what ever your pack is , and what
the dc to dc will handle ) in series 144v and then run a dc to dc converter off
the 144 and with its output charge the battery in the string that is the lowest ,
then when that one is full , find the next , most empty one in the string and
charge that one . Keep doing this till your get around to all the batteries
( watching that non go below 10.5 ) . then when most are getting close to 10.5 add
another charger that is powered for the wall and keep charging and cycling till
they are all full , .
====================================

Howdy,
When I developed a charger with Trojan for GE-EV (US Patent no. 6,218,812
www.uspto.gov ) and Jim Drizos who was an engineer at Trojan, I was told
that pulsators, desulfators etc. were *junk science* and had no useful
effect on the battery. Experiments I did there didn't show any measurable
useful benefit. Follow the IEI dv/dt=0 standard charge regime and that's
the best life you can get out of your batteries. Just another way to
separate you from your wallet.
have a nice day, Mark
====================================

1. Dead batteries require a starting charge of just a few amps. Turn up the variac
until your ammeter shows 2% of C. In one hour, the pack should show its nominal
voltage (such as 144v). If not, some battery is damaged; use your voltmeter to
check each battery individually; one is probably shorted or reversed, and it will
need to be replaced.

2. Turn up the variac. You want to provide as much current as possible for a fast,
thorough charge, but you don't want to burn anything up. Check the extension
cords, plugs, and charger. If anything is too hot to touch comfortably, the variac
is too high. Turn it down immediately. Use your ammeter to determine the maximum
current you can safely provide during charging. Remember that using a variac from
AC power produces transient DC "ripple" currents; at 12A, the ripple current can
be as high as 20A. In fact, 12A has been cited as a reasonable charging current.

3. Watch the ammeter. As your batteries charge, their voltage rises. As the
voltage rises, the current falls. To provide constant current, you'll have to turn
up the variac. I recommend you check every commercial (15 minutes or so). Failing
to turn up the variac will not damage the batteries; it will just take longer to
charge.

4. Look for full batteries. When any battery reaches 2.5v per cell (15v on a 12v
battery), it's full. You don't want to overcharge it, since that will shorten its
life and release hydrogen into your battery compartment. You'll have to start
turning down the variac to ensure that this battery doesn't get higher than 15v.
When your pack isn't balanced, it's almost always the same battery that reaches
the limit first; when your pack is balanced, they all reach the limit at the same
time. (In that case, you can just use the whole pack's voltage instead of checking
each individual battery; for 12 batteries at 15v limits, that's 180v.)

5. Fill the whole pack. You'll have to keep turning down the variac as more
batteries fill up. As the batteries reach their full charge, less current will be
required. When you reach 2% of C, they're full. You're done; turn the charger off.

6. Equalize the batteries. Let the batteries sit overnight. In the morning,
measure each battery's voltage. They should all match (to within 0.05v for 12v
batteries, 0.03v for 6v batteries). To charge the weak ones, you can either try
charging them separately or running a 2% C charge to the whole pack for a few
extra hours. Eventually they'll equalize.

A properly connected E-meter can tell when the batteries are full. This requires
setting the minimum charging voltage, the maximum charging current, and the
measurement time. When the charging voltage is above the minimum charging voltage
at the same time the current is below the maximum charging current, and this
condition persists for the measurement time (usually 1 or 5 minutes), the charge
indicator on the E-meter will flash green. If the E-meter is equipped with a low-
voltage alarm, it will go off at this point; you could use that signal to turn off
the charger. Unfortunately, these conditions are difficult to meet with a variac,
and almost impossible to meet with even a single damaged battery.

================================

21.3 What is Article 625?

Article 625 refers to Article 625 of NFPA 70, otherwise known as the National
Electrical Code (NEC).

This article references minimum safe installation practices for Electric Vehicle
Charging Systems.

Some say that the NEC contradicts itself with this article, since the NEC also
states that it does not apply to automotive vehicles.

The NEC is not followed verbatim by every municipality. State, City, and local
authorities may have local codes that differ slightly from the NEC. Always check
with your local municipality to determine the requirements for your particular
installation.

Please consult a qualified electrician or electrical inspector regarding any

electrical installation for your home. this includes, but is not limited to,
outlets for charging your EV.

-------------------

From: Lee Hart <ev@l...>

Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:49 pm
Subject: Re: Electravan progress.

ADVERTISEMENT
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> What number of windings and/or device would you use for a 450 amp
> SCR controller. Where would you put the inductor? Neg or Pos side?
> What size wire if you wind the inductor yourself? It is the big GE
> motor 20 hp that came stock with the Electravan & most other JET
> products.

Here's how I would approach it.

Your GE motor already has a big commutator, twice the size of the
Advanced DC motors. So, I wouldn't worry about ripple current affecting
the motor. You shouldn't need to add inductance with this motor. Adding
inductance would help, but isn't worth the effort.
The bigger problem is ripple current affecting the batteries. This can
be more cheaply and easily dealt with by adding capacitors in parallel
with the batteries, on the input side of the controller.

Do you have a shunt to measure battery current? If not, add one. Drive
at some constant cruising speed, and measure both the DC and AC voltage
across the shunt with a digital multimeter. As a goal, you would like to
see an AC current less than 10% of the DC current. For example, if you
are drawing 200 amps DC (20 millivolts DC across a 500a/50mv shunt), you
want to see less than 20 amps AC (2 millivolts AC).

Now, add some large electrolytic capacitors; enough to get the ripple
current under 10%. It is likely to take 10,000uf to 100,000uf, spread
between 10 or so parts. It is not the capacitance that matters; it is
the capacitor's ESR (equivalent series resistance). Since resistance is
what counts, you want the wiring to these capacitors as short and thick
as possible, and connected as close as possible to the input of the
controller.

What this capacitance does is to carry the motor AC ripple current, so

the batteries basically deliver DC current.
---------

From: "damon henry" <ev@l...>

Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:50 am
Subject: RE: The Lester and Nicads

ADVERTISEMENT
It could probably be used to handle most of the bulk charging just fine, but
I don't think you would have much luck coaxing it into finishing the charge
very well. With flooded NiCads, you generally want to put back in about 10%
more than you took out, but after the cells reach about 1.6V each you
generally cut the current back to about C/10 rate. So if you had a string
of 100 34ahr Nicads and you had just taken 30 ahrs out of them, you can
charge like nuts until the pack reach about 160 volts then charge at 3.4
amps until you have put around 33 ahrs back in.

>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@j...>

>Reply-To: ev@l...
>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@l...>
>Subject: The Lester and Nicads
>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:22:45 -0700
>
>Could an old Lester (the one that came with the Electravan) work with the
>1000 pounds and three strings of Nicads(at 120v) in the Electravan . This
>would allow me to do other things with my limited funds. Lawrence
>Rhodes.....
---------------------------------------------------
----

Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <[email protected]>

From: Randy Duncan <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ?battery charging
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

Thanks, Norman. Currently(ha) I've gotten all 17 up to +/- 6v and will complete
the charge with the onboard system. Will keep you all posted on proceedeings. Keep
your fingers(but not your wires) crossed. Randy Norman Smith
<[email protected]> wrote:Hello all /randy The first time you charge the
batteries I would suggest overcharging the pack to level them all up with a low
current charge. At AC propulsion we managed to get about 32,000 miles out of a
pack. We did it by keeping the batteries between 45% and 85% state of charge. We
monitored the batteries and when one of them was getting low we would charge the
pack fully and float the charge to level the entire pack. This charge was
typically only once a month. The easy way to charge the entire groupe of not
equalized batteries is to connect them in parrallel / series configuration and
charge them with the 12 volt charger. Let them trickel charge for a couple of
days. Norman Smith

-------------------------------------------------
======================================

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

>> I have a 120v 20 battery pack. Weighs 1400 pounds. Lee recommended
>> 1000uf and check again. What is the problem of putting in a few
>> thousand?

No direct harm; the more, the merrier.

However, the goal here is to reduce the battery ripple current. With
perfect zero-resistance capacitors, 1000uF is plenty because almost all
the controller's ripple current will then flow in the capacitors, not
the batteries.

However, real capacitors also have resistance, called ESR on the data
sheets (Equivalent Series Resistance). Capacitor ESR diverts ripple
current back to the batteries. ESR also produces heat, making the
capacitors get hot. It ultimately determines the maximum ripple current
that the capacitor can stand without overheating.

So, your goal is a capacitor with:

a. At least 1000uF of capacitance.

b. An ESR at least as low as your batteries ESR.

For example, an Optima has an ESR of about 0.003 ohms.
A pack of 10 has a total ESR of 10x0.003 = 0.03 ohms.
Add 20 connections at 0.001 ohm each = 0.05 ohms total.
So you want a capacitor with an ESR of 0.05 ohms or less.

c. A ripple current rating of at least 1/4th your motor current.

400 amp motor current means the controller is switching between
0 and 400, which is �200 amps peak AC ripple, which is about
100 amps RMS.

What you'll find is that its easy to find a 1000uF electrolytic

capacitor; but its ESR will be 1 ohm and its ripple current rating is
only 5 amps. Just one provides the capacitance, but you'd need 20 of
them in parallel to satisfy the ESR and ripple current requirements.
This is what you see in many controllers; a large number of cheaper
electrolytics, with far more capacitance than needed just to get the
ripple and ESR ratings.

Or, oil-filled paper or polypropylene film capacitors can easily meet

the ESR and ripple current requirements; but their capacitance is low. A
big metal can oil-filled capacitor can have 20uF of capacitance, 0.1 ohm
ESR, and a 25-amp ripple current rating. You'd need only 4 of them for
ESR and ripple, but 50 to get the capacitance. These capacitors would be
a lot larger and more expensive than electrolytics. So what you see in
some controllers are a smaller number of electrolytics (just to get the
capacitance), in parallel with a smaller number of oil or film
capacitors (to get the ESR and ripple ratings).

That's why I suggested that you experiment.

-- Ring the bells that you can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack
in everything That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem" -- Lee
A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

=====================================

A fuse is necessary between the variac and the bridge in case the bridge
shorts out ONE diode. If the variac is set to a very low setting (like 12
volts) it can put massive current into the bridge and burn out the lower
several windings in the variac before anyone notices. If a second diode in
the bridge shorts, it can open the output breaker indicating a problem. It
all depends on which pair of diodes short out.

In this case, the fuse should be about 150% of the variac continuous current
rating.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[email protected]

---------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:40:52 -0800

Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <[email protected]>
From: Ken Huck <[email protected]>
Subject: Charger Schematic
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Welcome Norman, I have a schematic for the charger on my 1980 Jet 600 and I have
used it sucessfully to wire a cord. Get me your email address and I will PDF it to
you with 24 hours. If we had an online archive I could put a copy there as well.
Regards, Ken Huck Susten(sm) Building Systems "We build in comfort and
economy(tm)" [email protected] mobile (828) 273-5334 land (408) 223-1303 >I have
just aquired 2 1980 Electravan 600's. >I am in the process of reserecting them.
Only one of them has the origional >battery charger in it. They both drive with a
temperary battery pack made up >of Optima batteries. This leaves me 6 volts short
of the normal operating >voltage and a little short on range but it works. I have
no power cord for >the origional charger and don't know what the connections
should be for 110v >or 220v operation. I am currently using a variac based pulse
charger for >battery charging. Is there any documentation available on the
charger? If >not I will reverse engineer a schematic for it this month. > >Thanks
>Norman Smith
------------------------------------------

Sender: North Texas Electric Auto Association <[email protected]>

From: Russell Levine <[email protected]>
Subject: Charger woes
Comments: To: ElectraVan List <[email protected]>, EV List <[email protected]>

Hi Listees - 2 days ago, I plugged in to my pack (before plugging into AC)

backwards, got a "pop", then realized something was wrong, and turned the plug
around. When I did plug into the wall, the ammeter read zero. I've checked
everything in the ElectraVan, and that's when I discovered the plug from the pack
is live...all the time! So I must have fried something in the chargers. I have a
pair of series-wired 77.5V Todds (unlabelled, so I'm going by looks), and now one
puts out ~58volts, and the other ~38volts. I opened the sliding top of one (38V
now) unit by breaking the aluminum "rivets", but there is no obvious meltdown,
everything "looks" intact, and I have little knowledge of how to test these things
(I'm lucky I could even figure out how to measure their output voltages!). The
insides seem to have, among other things, four sets of the same circuit, but what
do they do? To quote The Talking Heads, "My god, what have I done?". Any ideas
will be showered with karma. Russell L
---
Based opun my experience of doing the same thing to other items, that pop was not
a good thing.
MOSFET/transistors have a tendency to go ballistic and EXPLODE when connected to
reverse polarity.
Unfortunately they are usually behind a big heat sink so you can't always see em.
It could also just have
cracked to. Some times you can replace the MOSFET you self, but it would be best
to send it in.

If you can't get it fixed, KTA sells EV chargers.

When you get it fixed, I would recommend ether a plug you can't get backwards or a
relay and diode setup
that won't connect the charger unless the polarity is right.

--

I wasn't sure if Todd would repair very cheaply, so I've ordered an

unregulated charger from Fair Radio. Their website has a page from their
catalog with a surplus 0-135V 115/230V charger for $49.50. We'll see how it
does with my 102V pack.

Russell

-----------------------------------------

My Lester I think is supposed to charge a 96v pack, and about

as high as I can get it to go is around 130, and by then
there isn't much current flowing, so if I leave them on
for a real long charge they might get equalized, but it's
faster if I remove one of the 6v's and charge it separately
with a Sears charger.

---------------------------------------
-------------------------

From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Range
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Rob, I have the original Lester charger. The result is that I balance my pack
on every charge and add water more often. Thanks, Mike
---------------
In their original configuration, with the EV-1 controller and 20
6V golf cart batteries, you could get about 20 miles range. With 10
12V marine batteries, you'd be lucky to get 10 miles.
When the EV-1 controller is replaced with a more modern
PWM mosfet controller, with the 6V pack and everything in good
running order, the range jumps up to 40 miles. With your 12V
marine batteries, assuming they're 100 ahr capacity, in the same
scenario you might get 20 miles or so.
Also, if you're using the original Lester charger that came with
the truck, it's set up for a pack of 6V 220 ahr flooded batteries and
will basically do an equalizer on them every time, finish charge
current around 8 amps. It would literally boil the snot out of the
smaller 12V marine batteries if you let it do a full charge cycle, and
if they're sealed batteries ( a fair assumption since you said they're
out of a UPS ) they'd be toast after the first time you charged them
with the Lester.

----------------------------

Mitch Oates

-=-=-=-=-=-==================
CONTROLLER
-=-=-=-=-=-==================

I was at my favorite surplus supply Excess Solutions when I saw some high voltage
capacitors. 150vdc 440uf. I bought ten just based on the size of the screw.
Then I read the email and saw 50 might be needed. These are the silver ones
General Electric 92F311AMMA,

440UF - 10+50%, 150vdc 200 surge, 85C Max Ambient. I got 10 of these. Should I
put them all on the positive or negative side or split them on each leg? Do I
have enough? Or is this over kill. Each is 1 3/8" x 3 1/8" long. Three bucks
each. LR>.
-

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

> I have an SCR based controller in the Electravan that switches

> at 1500 hz with inadequate filtering on the battery side.
> Is it possible that the battery sees high current pulses and
> behaves more like it is discharging at 1000 amps than 100 and
> consequently has much less capacity.

Yes, it is possible; even probable. You can measure the battery ripple
current with a multimeter. Measure across your battery current shunt, or
pick two spots along one of the wires from your batteries to the
controller. For example, the positive terminal of the battery and the
other end of that wire that connects to the controller. The voltage drop
in this wire is proportional to current.

Connect wires from these points to your multimeter, and go for a drive.
While cruising at some constant speed, measure the DC voltage and the AC
voltage. Their ratio is the percent ripple current. If the AC voltage is
more than about 10% of the DC voltage, then your batteries would benefit
from the addition of filter capacitors.

These old SCR controllers usually didn't have a large input filter
capacitor bank. There were several reasons.

First, they expected them to be used with huge forklift batteries, which
already have lots of capacitance (a "mere" 1000 amp load for these
batteries isn't a high rate :-) They may not have been aware that lack
of capacitors would be a problem for lower-capacity higher-resistance
batteries.

Or they knew, but were concerned about the reliability of electrolytic

capacitors. Modern electrolytics are merely bad -- back then they were
even worse! Note that a 20-year-old SCR controller still works; if they
had used electrolytics, it wouldn't!

Or, they knew and just wanted to save money.

You can add the filter capacitors yourself. You need to connect them as
close to the controller's input as you can, with as short and heavy a
wire as possible.

We don't have enough data to calculate a value, but it's going to take
thousands of microfarads. If it were me, I'd look for some surplus
electrolytics intended for switching power supply filtering, and put in
1,000uf worth. Measure your ripple current again, and see how much it
dropped. Then you can guess how much more it will take.
-----------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:19:15 -0800 Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600
Owners List <[email protected]> Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-
[email protected]> From: Ken Huck <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ElectraVan]
anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet
ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> In-Reply-To:
<[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Hello All, I did the voltage check that Mike suggested below. Backround: The
battery pack is a collection of 3 types of used 6V deep cycle batteries some of
which were very discharged. Each was cycled repeatedly, individually charged and
load tested with a 15 Amp constant current load, until it was able to charge up to
6.5 volts or more, and deliver 15 amps for at least 1 hour. The motor is a 96VDC
Prestolite MIC 4001, it turns freely. The vehicle may not have driven under power
in 20 years (18,000 on the odometer). Brake fluid is low (where is it added). Test
Results: 94 volts on battery pack at no load 93 volts on battery pack pack with
accelerator in mid range oscillating from 80 to 90 volts on battery pack with
accelerator to floor (also relay clicking open and closed sound at about 10 Hertz)
O volts between terminal A1 and A2 with accelerator in mid range about 0.6 volts
between terminal A1 and A2 with accelerator to floor (also relay clicking open and
closed sound at about 10 Hertz) O volts between terminal S1 and S2 with
accelerator in mid range 0.7 volts between terminal S1 and S2 with accelerator to
floor (again with relay clicking open and closed sound at about 10 Hertz) The
trouble shooting guide that I have seem to be pointing to rectifiers. A problem
that I have is I do not know if what I have is normal or abnormal SCR hum. >Now to
the EV-1. > >I think that you are asking how to determine whether the problem is
the >controller, the wiring, or the motor. Rather than trying to run the >motor
without the controller, I would try to measure the voltage at the >motor with the
controller humming. At the same time, I would note the >current reported by the
dash ammeter. Two of the motor terminals should >be tied together with a short
copper bar. Be sure that the bar and the >other motor wires are clean and tight
and measure both across the >armature alone ( near the tire) and the field alone.
> >Depending on the results of these measurements, you may wish to repeat >the
test at the other end of the motor wires. > >Please be careful since there is a
lot of voltage with a great deal of >current available. > >Let us know what you
find. > >Thanks, >Mike > >-------- Original Message -------- > Subject: >
[ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics > Date: > Wed, 10 Mar
2004 09:50:31 -0000 > >Hello, >My ElectraVan is nearly road worthy. > >When I
power it up and depress the accelerator the contactor >clicks and I get >a low 7
to 15 khz hum out of the controller but the motor >does not turn. > >I would like
to deliver power directly to the motor terminal >to see if the motor >will turn.
>I need to know the proper confiuration/connection for the >wires to do that test.
>Of couse it is a series wound motor. > >Thanks to anyone who can share some
insight or empathy. > >best regards, >[email protected]
http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=510

From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ElectraVan]

anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet
ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-
ascii
Ken, How much current did you see during your test? Perhaps the pack is sagging
enough to let the relay drop out before the motor turns. The volts may be OK if
the current is low. The sound of the controller is very subjective. The sound
under load comes from the motor, not the controller. The sound of the controller
itself is hard to hear. The motor acts similar to a speaker when pulsed by the
controller. Thanks, Mike--http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-
bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=638

From: Ken Huck <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C
controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List
<[email protected]> In-Reply-To: <[email protected]> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Hello Mike, Thanks for the info about the sound. I am having trouble getting a
trustable current reading. However I expect that 80 volts is sufficient to drive
the motor with the transmission in neutral. That comes back to me wanting to test
the motor by delivering battery voltage directly to the motor. If such a test was
sucessful it would narrow troubleshooting to the wiring and controller. I am keen
to find good controller schematics and test procedures also a configuration guide
for the motor. regards, [email protected]://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-
bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=783

From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ElectraVan]

anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet
ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-
ascii

Ken, The fact that the relay cycles implies that the controller is opening the
relay, or the battery voltage is too low to hold the relay in. A series connected
motor has a fairly complex relationship between applied voltage, current draw,
torque and speed. A simplification might be to consider that for a specific
current, the motor provides a specific torque. That implies if no load is provided
for the motor and a current is supplied, the motor will accelerate until it flies
apart. If the current is two low, the motor won't turn at all because of internal
friction. If the current is enough to get the motor started, but not too much
more, the motor will reach some speed equilibrium since its internal friction
increases with speed. From rest, the current is determined by Ohm's law where the
resistance is the motor winding resistance and the battery's internal resistance.
One of your 6 volt batteries will probably spin the motor without excessive speed.
Two in series should do if one can't get the motor started. I wouldn't use more
than 12 volts though. In order to try this, you must remove the controller wires
from the motor. Leave the jumper from the armature to the field in place. Apply
the 6-12 volts to the remaining two motor terminals. Polarity isn't critical. Be
prepared for a big spark, and be prepared to disconnect the battery if the motor
accelerates too much. There is no shock hazard, but the currents that the
batteries can supply can cause burns, melted tools, and could weld the wire to the
motor terminal. Please be careful. I don't have a controller schematic. Mike--
http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=911

From: Ken Huck <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C
controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List
<[email protected]> In-Reply-To: <[email protected]> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Hello Mike, Thank you so much for the tutorial. Using the procedure you outlined I
was able to get the motor started. Shortly after I discoverd a problem with the
drive train. With the drive wheels suspended in the air. The drivers side rear
wheel won't turn unless the passenger side wheel is stopped (must be held very
firmly). When the driverside wheel does turn it lifts up about 1/2 of an inch once
each rotation the whole transmission wobbles when this happens. One of the CV
boots looks slightly stretched. I will need to remove the wheel and check it out.
Any ideas on suppliers of axles for these vehicles? Do you know what kind of oil
to use in the tramsmission? I am thinking of making an approx. 3.5KW load using 3
120 V AC electric heaters that I have. I would do this to look for weak batteries
in the pack. Considering that the motor is known good do you think that I still
need to consider the pack as a potential source of trouble. The documents I have
suggest looking at shorted or open diodes when you get normal controller sound and
little or no power. Thanks again Mike. best regards, [email protected]
http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=1056
------------------

====================

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:35:10 -0700 Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600
Owners List <[email protected]> Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-
[email protected]> From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]> Subject:
Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To:
EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Ken, Drive train: My guess is that you have a stuck or damaged CV joint. I have
been surprised on my Vanagon how much these joints can be abused and still be
repairable. I have one that all the metal is discolored from the heat of running
it without lubricant. That happened to it 70,000 miles ago. So, take it apart and
see what's up. If it can be cleaned up and none of the surfaces are galled, it
just needs CV grease to make it like new. In any case, you will need a new boot. I
haven't had to replace my CV joint boots yet, but I'll bet that something can be
found that fits. If you go through the process of matching something up, please
let me know what you end up with. The only Subaru only parts that I've needed so
far were some tail light lenses. I helped a fellow in Japan get some Vanagon parts
and in return, he found what I needed. The Subaru 360 Driver's club has a couple
of ElectraVan owners. The club is always on the lookout for parts suppliers. There
is a Subaru dealer in Flagstaff AZ that has offered to get factory parts if they
are available for club members. You may wish to join the club. The club address
is: http://clubs.hemmings.com/frameset.cfm?club=subaru360 The dealer address is:
Eric Pifer (Parts Manager) Planet Nissan Subaru 2020 East Route 66 Flagstaff, AZ.
86004 E-mail:[email protected] Phone: 520-774-9163 I don't remember the
transmission lube spec, but I can look it up and have it for you on Monday. Motor
/ Controller / Battery pack: The good news is that you have eliminated the motor
as a cause. The question now is whether the contactor is dropping out directly due
to low voltage, because the controller senses a fault such as low voltage, or
because the controller itself is faulty. One factor in making the diagnosis is the
type of test equipment that you have available. The next test that I would
recommend is measuring the voltage on the contactor's coil to see if it is
dropping out because it is low, or it is actually being turned off. Since the
relay is chattering, an oscilloscope should be used to see the coil voltage. An
analog meter might work if the meter is fast enough and the chatter slow enough. A
digital meter would be useless. You mentioned that you were having trouble getting
a good current reading. What do you mean by that? Is the original meter shunt and
the dash meter no longer in place? You are correct about the diode checking
advice, but it may not be that simple. The EV-1 is SCR (Silicon Controlled
Rectifier) based and works a little differently than more modern controllers. If
the controller is humming, most likely there is drive (a control signal) to the
power devices. Without a schematic I am guessing here, but there are probably 3
power devices. A characteristic of an SCR is that it latches in the on state until
the current through it is interrupted. So, at the beginning of a power pulse, the
main SCR is turned on. When the logic of the controller decides to end the power
pulse, it turns on a second smaller SCR to discharge a capacitor into the motor
circuit. This momentary pulse stops (commutates) the main SCR from conducting.
And, since the capacitor discharge is only momentary, the second SCR turns off as
well. The inductance of the motor tries to maintain the current which causes the
voltage across the motor to reverse. This reverse voltage is conducted by the
third power device, a large diode. These three expensive components closely
interact and it is likely that if any go bad, they may all go bad. Plus, they may
be damaged by an incorrect logic signal, so replacing them may only result in a
second failure. I gather that most folks replace the EV-1 controller rather than
attempt to repair it. There is logic circuitry in the EV-1 that tries to preserve
the expensive devices from bad things and stop a runaway condition should one
fail. In other words for any real or imagined fault, the logic opens the main
contactor to stop or limit the damage. In my experience though, the logic shuts
down until the throttle is closed and then reopened. This is not consistent with
the contactor chattering that you observed, and that leads me back to the
conclusion that the pack voltage is falling enough to cause the drop out. I don't
believe that I would try anything with the heater load yet. Another test that may
give you some more information is to measure individual battery voltage under the
contactor chattering condition. You will have to use an analog meter, and scope
still would be best. You may just find a battery reversing. I sure talk a lot.
Mike--http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=1184

====================================

Newbee: GE EV-1 Controller help needed....

* To: [email protected], [email protected]

* Subject: Newbee: GE EV-1 Controller help needed....
* From: ed <[email protected]>
* Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:27:26 -0600
* Reply-To: [email protected]
* Sender: [email protected]

I just purchased a 1980 Bradley electric kit car. After working on

the mechanical part of the car and
purchasing (16) T145 batteries I have just found out that the GE EV1
controller is dead. I did get
a copy of the schematics on the EV1 from Bob (thanks). These were very
helpful but since this is
related to forklifts does leave out some info. After playing with this
EV1 controller for a while I concluded
that the osc card was probably bad. I did find a new EV1 controller
(thanks Gerald) but when installing
this controller had the same problem. This got me thinking that
something other than the EV1 is the
problem. Not having any diagrams on the car wiring I am now lost.

My EV1 is currently hooked up as:

 L3,L4,L5,L7 goes to 50 volts

L10 goes to pin #3 of the driver module (driver module checks out
ok)

R3 goes to pin #1 of the driver module

R4,R5 goes to the accelerator (I get 4k ohms normal, stepping on

the gas I get 200 ohms)

P goes to the main contactor

T2,A2 goes to the motor

N is ground for the 50 volts

A1 is not used

My first problem is that the main contactor does not pick. If I

remove the (-) wire from
the main contactor and ground this then when I step on the gas I do get
the main
contactor closing (pos side of contactor is 50 volts). So now I have
power thru the contactor
to the (P) terminal on the EV1. I also have power (50v) to the osc card
on the EV1 controller.

So even with the contactor picked (brute force method) supplying pwr to
the (P) terminal,
having 50 volts in the input to the osc card, have the accelerator
depressed, I do not hear
the SCR humming and the SCR does not switch on. I have checked all the
components of the
EV1 and they look ok (except for the osc card).

Question: How does the pot box interact with the EV1. It seems that the
wiring for the pot box goes
into the car frame and it is hard to follow this. Before I bite the
bullet on getting a new controller
I want to understand what is going on (or better stated what is not
going on). If anybody has
any ideas of whats going on these would be extremely appreciated......

And Yes, I know that I should get a new MOSFET controller but before I
do that I want to understand
this controller and at least drive around the block.

I want to thank all the people that have helped me get this far (Roger,
Brendan, and others)

Thanks Ed--
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:9E0kZacKPWwJ:solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev
/200001/msg01001.html+%22ev-1+controller%22&hl=en&start=1

* From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>

* Date: 24 Jan 2000 13:50:00 -0700
* Reply-To: [email protected]
 * Sender: [email protected]

Hi Ed,

A couple of things:

- 16 T145s sounds like 96V; why is the controller logic being fed
50V, and why is the main contactor connecting 50V to P? If your
EV-1 is spec'ed for 84-144V (as mine is), 50V may be low enough
that it won't start up properly.

- even when it locks out due to a detected fault condition, my EV-1

still makes an audible sound in the low kHz range (not very loud,
mind you... you'd need to stick your head near the controller while
power is applied to hear it); does yours?

- L10 is an INPUT to the controller (normally used to signal the

controller that you've selected REVERSE; L9 is the FORWARD input).
Regardless of which input you use (L9 or L10), it must be connected
to the positive side of the contactor coil, and the ground side of
the contactor coil must be connected to P3 (or P4) of the driver
module. Once wired correctly, L10 should be at pack voltage when
you expect the contactor to be closed. P2 of the driver module
should be connected to pack negative (controller N terminal).

- the potbox is a simple affair: a pot and 2 switches. The accelerator

start switch operates as the throttle is moved from the idle position,
the 1A switch operates as the throttle approaches wide open. The 1A
switch is for the 1A bypass contactor which isn't typically fitted
to a road car, so this switch will be unused (if even fitted). On my
potbox, it is the switch nearest the pot itself (side opposite the
lever to which the cable attaches). The start switch is the one nearest
the lever, and is used on my setup to apply power to one of the controller
inputs (see later). The wires from the throttle pot should run to R4
and R5 and nowhere else (i.e. if disconnected at R4 & R5 you should measure
the sort of resistances you quoted between the wires and an infinite
resistance between either wire and the chassis). Each of the switches
has 4 screw terminals, one pair raised above the others. One pair (e.g.
the raised one) will provide a normally-open set of contacts and the other
pair will provide normally-closed ones.

Unfortunately, I don't have the schematic for my car with me, so I'll
have to check it tonight and update you tomorrow because my setup
also applies pack voltage to L3, L4, L5, and L7 (through a relay when
the ignition switch is turned on), but uses the accelerator start switch
(switch in the potbox assembly which operates as the pedal is moved off
the idle position) to then connect power to (I believe) L9 (which my
setup uses instead of L10). This is important as the controller will
lock out if there isn't a slight delay between applying power to L3, etc.
and the accelerator switch operating (e.g. turning on the key with the
throttle matted). Anyway, I'll check the schematic and confirm this
with you tomorrow. The way mine is configured, the main contactor engages
as soon as the ignition is switched on, but the controller will lock itself
out if a fault condition is detected and must be power-cycled after the fault
is cleared before it will re-enable.

Hope this helps,

Roger.--http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/200001/msg01019.html

* In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
* Reply-To: [email protected]
* Sender: [email protected]

Bradley had a scheme where they ran at 48 volts at low speed and 96 volts
at high speed. All automatic and all while using the GE SCR controller.
They claimed this gave greater range because the pulse duty cycle was longer.--
http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/200001/msg01061.html

* From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>

* Date: 25 Jan 2000 13:05:00 -0700
* Reply-To: [email protected]
* Sender: [email protected]

Hi Ed,

Interesting about the Bradley's 48/96V setup; I was unaware of this.

I suspect that it is more likely that you have a wiring problem than
2 bad EV-1s; once the wiring is sorted, you might want to reinstall
the original controller or at least avoid "turbo" mode with the 48V
controller installed... not sure how it would take to 96V.

I'm not sure that the silence of your EV-1 is a bad sign; just wanted
to understand how similarly to mine it is behaving. The power supply
in mine might be noisier that it ought to be...

Your clarification of the PMT driver wiring sounds more or less correct,
but I'm still a bit confused (unclear on what P3 of the driver module
is connected to), so let me try an ASCII drawing of how my (working)
set up looks (use a fixed font such as Courier for best clarity):

Switch Accelerator
/ Controlled by key / START switch
Pack +ve ----/ ---+-----------+------------/ ---+
(or 50V) | | Main |
+--+--+--+ O Contactor |
| | | | | Coil |
L3 L4 L5 L7 | L9
========== PMT Driver
= P4 =
= P2=---+
= P1 = |
========== |
| |
R3 N

NOTE: L10 can be used instead of L9 and P3 instead of P4.

Your setup sounds like it puts the contactor and PMT driver on
the same side of the START switch as L9 (L10), which results in
the main contactor operating when you step on the throttle. This
should be fine (perhaps even more "correct" than the way mine is
wired).

Where does your main contactor's contacts appear in the circuit?

(I'm assuming it connects the battery pack +ve to the controller's P
terminal.)

I don't think it is advisable to try tying R3 to ground as this

might damage the controller card. If the driver module has tested
OK as per the manual, then the reason it is not engaging the contactor
is because the controller has detected some fault condition and is
deliberately inhibiting it (this is, after all, the reason for the
driver and it's connection to R3; so that the controller can drop out
the contactor in the event of a failed SCR, commutation failure, etc.).
The other possibility is that the controller card is fried...

One of the faults that will lock out the controller (but [in my case]
doesn't prevent the contactor from picking up) is if the commutating
capacitor(s) fail to charge up to the expected level in the expected
amount of time on power up.

BEFORE proceeding with any further troubleshooting, make sure the

car is in neutral with the handbrake set! If there is a failure
in your controller, you don't wan't to inadvertantly defeat its
lock out and launch the car!

It might be worth measuring the voltage across them while power is

applied to the controller to verify that they charge up with the key
on, even though the main contactor is not yet closed. The voltage that
the controller wants to see on the caps is a fraction of the pack voltage
applied to the controller: one side of the cap is tied to pack +ve
[the P terminal], and the voltage between the other side of the cap and
pack -ve [N terminal] drops as it charges up; while testing my pack was
at ~90V and the controller would lock out until the low side of the cap
dropped within about 25V of the N terminal. Since you're running 50V,
the voltages your EV-1 wants to see may be correspondingly lower.

-If the cap charges slowly, or not at all, recheck with the main contactor
closed. If it still doesn't charge, check for continuity through the
motor (e.g. disconnect the cable at T2 and verify continuity from this
cable end through to the controller's A2 terminal. Also confirm that
there is continuity from A2 to N and N to pack -ve). Without continuity
through the motor loop, the commutating caps can't charge and the
controller will lock out.

-Once the controller locks out, you must power cycle it to reset. Check
that the voltage on the L3 connection drops below 4V when you turn off
the key; if not, the EV-1 will/may not reset.

-Likewise, check that the voltage at L9/L10 is below 4V until you step
on the throttle. If the voltage at this pin is not below 4V for at least
0.5 second after turning on the key, then the controller will lock out.

-Check the voltage at R1 (Card power supply) with the key on. It should
be 8-8.5V. If it is above 10V or near 0V replace the control card and
check the PMT driver for a short (this is why I think shorting R3 to
ground may be a bad idea; it seems a shorted PMT driver could cause the
control card power supply to fry).

-The contactor (Pulse Monitor Trip, or PMT) driver allows the controller
to drop out or lock out the contactor if it detects an SCR failure,
commutation failure, or welded 1A bypass contactor failure. One of the
fault conditions is that battery voltage is not detected across the main
 SCR (1-REC) when it is off (i.e. failed shorted). If battery voltage
only appears at P when the main contactor is closed, then perhaps the
controller fails to see battery volts across 1-REC at power up and locks
out having decided it has failed shorted (we know that it hasn't failed
shorted since you didn't launch the car when you forced the contactor to
close). Test this by re-connecting your main contactor so that it picks
up when the key switch closes, but leave L9/L10 controlled by the
accelerator start switch.

If the contactor still won't pick up when connected as in my diagram:

-Turn off power and disconnect the cable from T2. Then, with key on and
contactor closed, check volts from T2 to N. It should be about 50% of the
voltage from P to N. If it is more than 70%, then the control card will
lock out 1-REC (no PWM). If it is near 100%, check for a shorted 1-REC
(unlikely since car didn't launch). If it is near 0V, check for a shorted
3-REC (freewheel diode).

If the contactor picks up when connected as in my diagram, but the controller

still doesn't PWM when the throttle is pressed:

-Re-check voltage on the commutating capacitors. If they are charged, try

turning the controller off then immediately back on (it will then be
guaranteed to see "good" cap voltage within the allowed time frame and
this cause of lock out can be eliminated). Then after 1-2s, prod the throttle
and listen for the SCR growl (you may have to give more throttle than you might
expect, so don't be shy).

-With key on and contactor closed, check volts from T2 to N. It should be 0V.
If not, check volts at S1, S2, A1 and A2 to locate the open circuit in your
motor or its wiring.

There are some other checks you can perform to check for proper voltages
at the throttle pot terminals, etc. which are described in the manual. Most
of the checks I've described are from the manual but modified for cars like
ours which use the PMT driver to control a main contactor to P rather than
to control a directional (forward or reverse) contactor between T2 and the
motor. You can't follow the manual's troubleshooting guide directly since
an open contactor for you means no power to P, while the guide assumes it
means an open between T2 and the motor.

Let us know what you find!

Cheers,

Roger.--http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/200001/msg01082.html

* From: "Mark Hanson" <[email protected]>

* Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:42:26 -0500
* Importance: Normal
* In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
* Reply-To: [email protected]
* Sender: [email protected]

Won't get any help from GE, their customer service department is gone. Best
to replace with a more reliable Curtis 1231C or equiv.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 3:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: GE EV-1 Controller

Just purchased a EV with a GE EV-1 scr controller....Does anyone have any

schematics or wiring diagrams that can help me trouble shoot this
controller.

Thanks Ed--
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:tNSeTXWJRKsJ:solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev
/200001/msg00201.html+%22ev-1+controller%22&hl=en&start=2

--- Begin Message ---

Mark Hanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Yes, but how does the ripple current formulae correlate to
> frequency?

The ripple current in the motor loop is dependant on the motor loop
inductance (essentially the motor inductance) and the switching
frequency. The lower the frequency, the greater the off time during
which the motor loop current decays further, resulting in greater
ripple. The lower the motor loop current is when the switch turns back
on, the lower the motor voltage and therefore the greater the initial
current drawn from the battery will be (i.e. greater battery ripple
current).

(e.g. the GE EV-1 SCR controller switches at 50-300Hz, which is slow

enough that the motor loop current (with a 7.2" Prestolite) dropped to 0
between pulses; the battery ripple current was the full motor current
(could be as high as 500A with this controller), despite the slow
switching speed of the SCRs).

> But since I'm switching at 1.5kHz instead of 15kHz

> shouldn't my switching spikes be less?

As I understand it, the switching speed is not necessarily tied to the

PWM frequency. That is, you are turning the switch on and off at
1.5kHz, but the 'switching speed' that affects the magnitude of the
switching spikes depends on how fast you get the switch to go from off
to on (or vice versa). That is, at 1.5kHz, you turn the switch on every
0.67ms but the time it takes to switch on might be 10us or 100us, etc.
depending on how hard you drive it, and it is this turn-on speed that
affects the switching spike magnitude.

> I mean if I switched once a

> second, that would obviously be very low ripple current
> averaged for the caps and they wouldn't even get warm.

Nope. See the above real-world example of the 50-300Hz switching

frequency for the GE EV-1 controller; the slower you switch the greater
the ripple current gets, at least until you are switching slowly enough
that the motor loop current can hit 0A between on pulses (switching mre
slowly than this doesn't worsen the ripple further). At 1Hz your caps
would be seeing full motor current as ripple (100s of amps) and they
would definitely get warm. 1Hz probably isn't slow enough for them to
cool singificantly between pulses, so they will heat up.

Hope this helps,

Roger.

--- End Message -----http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Y9Izy69ZI5YJ:www.mail-

archive.com/ev%40listproc.sjsu.edu/msg04857.html+%22ev-
1+controller%22&hl=en&start=9

---------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:55:20 -0700 Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600
Owners List <[email protected]> Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-
[email protected]> From: Robb Zuk <[email protected]> Subject: Re: High voltage
GE EV1 controller Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-
[email protected]> In-Reply-To: <[email protected]> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I ran my EV-1 controller at 120 Volts (16 x 8 Volt Batteries) for a year and it
was not problem. Now I'm back to the old 96 Volt pack because the 6 Volt batteries
have a longer life span. Re chargers... I used my old lester for charging at 96
and 102 Volts and it was fine both ways. 108 Volts... Give it a try! Won't hurt
anything but might not charge very quickly or might not give you a full charge. I
gave up on my old Lester years ago -- Too heavy. Now I just use a bad-boy charger
with a timer. Robb On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:00:51 -0600, Norman Smith wrote: > >I am
using 12 volt batteries in my Electrovan 600 and have been running it 6 >volts
below its rating has anyone had any experiance running it at a higher >voltage.
Also does anyone know if the charger can be adapted to charge a 108 >volt pack?? I
have a power supply that can charge just about any voltage up >to 300 volts but
would like to use the origional charger and keep the power >supply for bench
use.--http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=330

Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <[email protected]> From: "Michael

A. Radtke" <[email protected]> Subject: GE EV1 Controller Help Comments:
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>

Hello, I have a 1979 ElectraVan with a GE EV1 controller. I have a copy of the
service manual for the controller (thanks Bob Wing). After about 10 minutes of
driving, occasionally the SCR's will fire when the throttle switch opens. Since
they are faster than the contactor this causes a jerk of power applied before the
contactor opens. It is more than an annoyance since the contactor then opens at
high current which it normally does not do. Because the problem is heat sensitive,
I suspect that I have a failing component problem rather than the need to add some
filtering or shielding. So, is this a well known problem with a well know
solution? Hints and tips are appreciated. Thanks, Mike--
http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0009&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=61

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:34:17 -0500

Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <[email protected]>
From: Robert MacConnell <[email protected]>
Subject: Van no run

Greetings fellows, My inquiry is to find out if anyone is familiar with

troubleshooting the Curtis PMC 1221R-1105 regenerative braking controller. The
previous owner installed this (delete expletive)on my van. I thought regenerative
braking sounded like a great idea, but sadly, it has proven to be the source of
constant problems and breakdowns. Burned contact points, failed
microswitches,loose wire connections, etc. I decided to remove all the regen
components and wire it up as a normal (non regen) controller. Now, it dosn't run
at all. It has 10 pin Molex connector for the regen wiring and it needs to "see"
certain inputs before it will operate. I thought I had done a complete job, but
no-go. The Curtis engineering dept. sent me some general information, but claimed
ignorance on specific points. Appearantly this is an old design and no longer
made. The specific information I am looking for is, what inputs does this thing
need before it will turn on? I am grateful for any and all help. Thanks! Robert
MacConnell

--http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=56

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 22:58:13 -0700 Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600
Owners List <[email protected]> Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-
[email protected]> From: Robb Zuk <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Van no run
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> In-
Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Robert, Higher voltage = more horsepower (or same power with less current if
you turn down your controller). I wouldn't go higher than 120 Volts in the
Electravan for fear of damaging the clutch and possibly transmission. My clutch
will chatter even at 96 Volts if I shift to a higher gear too soon. Mind you, if
you keep your controller turned down or avoided matting the accelerator pedal
except for higher RPM, you could easily run the system at 144 Volts -- Then there
are charger issues to consider. I've heard of folks running their 96 Volt GE motor
at 192 Volts but that sounded hairy. I wouldn't worry too much about buying a used
controller -- Yes, the electronics can be stressed and still work but they tend to
be either fine or dead. And if you can get a used one for half the list price then
I think you're doing well. If it's not a current model then perhaps it's a
different story. Speaking of used controllers, if you decide to sell your regen
unit, let me know. I have the exact same one in a box and have been planning to
install it for three years... And having a spare appeals to me if the price is
right. I know the potential problems but I want to try it anyway. I will set up
the regen at a very low level so hope to avoid most of the arcing issues. Robb--
http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=524

From: Jim Jacobson and Jane Garvin <[email protected]> Subject: Re: van not
running- help? Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-
[email protected]> In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Sounds like a blown relay. Check the relay in the box to the left of the
controller. Mine blew last year. Easy to diagnose and repair it that is indeed the
problem. Jim On Thursday, June 17, 2004, at 12:27 PM, Randy Duncan wrote: > Got 17
t-105's charged & installed. System reads 99v on voltmeter. > Plug in
charger(lester)- nothing. Turn the key, step on the > accelerator- nothing. No
needles moving, no buzz, hum, chirp, etc. Any > ideas? Thanks, Randy --
http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=807

---------------------

If you need more than 20 miles range, instead of a new battery

pack, your first priority should be saving up for a new controller to
replace the EV-1. A used 400 amp Curtis 1221B will give adequate
performance with the GE motor and a 120V pack, and will probably
be quite a bit cheaper than a new controller. Failing that, a Curtis
1231C or Zapi H2 (minus regen) would be my choice for a reliable
controller with good performance where cost is the main factor.
My suggestion would be to first install a sacrificial used test
pack to test the truck and ensure everything works. Fix what's
broke and/or modify it to suit your needs. Then tackle any minor
upgrades you might need or want, such as a DC/DC converter for
reliable 12V power or a vacuum pump for power brakes. Third,
replace the controller with something more modern if needed.
THEN, after taking care of all the details and learning the proper
care and feeding of batteries with your sacrificial pack, you're ready
to drop in a new set of batteries and enjoy driving your truck.
The more work you put in at the front end means less work and
more driving time down the road.

----------------------------------
Don't know if someone already answered this thread,
but my VoltsRabbit was initially 120V pack with
1221B. Unfortunately, I had a 9" ADC motor. Vehicle
weight was 2937 lbs. My observations:
-Balky starts. Have been informed that this was the
motor, not the controller.
-Need to use 1st gear; slow acceleration.
Such a nuisance that I wound up switching to the
1231C.
Best of success to you.

--- [email protected] wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I have the chance to get hold of a Curtis 1221B-74xx
> 72 to 120 volt controller, which I know works.
> Will this be OK running from a 120v pack?
> Or could the voltage just after charging kill it?
>
> Apparently it does not switch between 15 kHz
> and 1.5 kHz, so it isn't one of the "whiners".
> Presumably this means the control at low throttle
> settings isn't as fine, will this be a problem for
> a Mini-sized EV? ( about 2500 lbs all in ).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Richard Bebbington
>

------------------------------------------
From: Lee Hart <ev@l...>
Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: Electravan progress.

ADVERTISEMENT
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> I got the 12v system working. Volt meter works. Contactor now works.
> Motor won't spin. SCR seems dead. Original wiring seems a little wimpy.
> Wondering if a 1221C will be equal to a 450 amp SCR. Awaiting Batteries.
> Lawrence Rhodes.........

Congratulations -- you're making progress! That always feels good.

On the wiring, you can get away with amazingly small wire if you don't
care about the voltage drops and heating. Try it as-is; drive a bit,
feel for hot wires and connection, beef it up as needed.

No, a 1221C won't be nearly as powerful as a 450amp SCR controller. For

one thing, the 1221C will cut back as it warms up, and probably not
deliver more than 250-300 amps sustained.

These old SCR controllers are pretty tough; probably just a loose or
corroded or mouse-eaten connection somewhere. But, they can be hard to
figure out and get fixed.

--------

From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <ev@l...>

Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:19 am
Subject: Re: Electravan progress.

ADVERTISEMENT
These old SCR controllers are pretty tough; probably just a loose or
corroded or mouse-eaten connection somewhere. But, they can be hard to
figure out and get fixed.

I hear they are tough on brushes and range eaters. Is anyone still using a
stock Jet with this EV-1 SCR controller? Lawrence Rhodes....

-----------

From: ev@l...
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:21 pm
Subject: RE: What would it take to run a GE motor at 180v+. Got Zilla?

ADVERTISEMENT
With the Zilla, if i remember correctly, you can set the max voltage the
motor will see independent of whatever battery pack voltage is. In other
words, you can wire the battery pack for 360 volts and programm the Zilla so
that the GE motor will never see more than 144V or whatever upper limit you
decide that it can handle.
IMHO, if you can afford it, get one of the Zilla's that can handle a 360
volt battery pack, wire the pack for 360V, and then program the hairball for
a max motor voltage of 144V to start. If later on via experimentation or
other means you find out that the GE can handle more voltage, all you have
to do is reprogram the hairball.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:bassoon@j...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 2:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: What would it take to run a GE motor at 180v+. Got Zilla?

I am looking at my pack and I have 360v/180v/120v options. This at stock

voltage normal performance & using the whole pack of 300 cells. The GE motor
is the original stock motor from Jet Industries. What has been done with
out taking away reliability? I am looking at a Zilla. This will be a daily
driver and I am hoping for 80 to 100 mile range in the Electravan. Lawrence
Rhodes..

------------
From: Otmar <ev@l...>
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:55 pm
Subject: RE: What would it take to run a GE motor at 180v+. Got Zilla?

ADVERTISEMENT
That might be great if the Zilla Z1K-EHV actually could handle 360V
packs. Unfortunately it's only designed for up to a 348V system.

Since it sounds like you are looking for a step up in performance

from the original 120V pack, I suggest running at 180V with a Z1K-HV
which is good for up to a 300V pack.

Even if the Zilla could handle 360V, considering the heavy weight of
the vehicle I would suggest the 180V pack would be better. The lower
voltage will reduce the stress on the controller capacitors and
reduce the ripple current (heating) in the motor.

hth,

-Otmar-

-----
Ran the GE motor in mine for a while with 132V of T-105's and 600 amp
current limit. Noticeable improvement in performance and hill-climbing
ability even with just an extra 12V and 200 amps. 144V and a possible 1000
amp limit would DEFINITELY wake that motor up!
If he is talking Nicads, perhaps two series strings of 180V, provided the
weight is acceptable.

------

From: Lee Hart <ev@l...>

Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 7:36 pm
Subject: Re: Electravan progress.

ADVERTISEMENT
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I hear [SCR controllers] are tough on brushes and range eaters.

This can be true; but not necessarily.

The usual application for these SCR controllers is in fork lifts. These
vehicles are transmissionless and extremely heavy. So, they draw
enormous motor starting currents. The motors have huge brushgear, and a
large amount of iron to avoid saturation. The controllers are built to
deliver 500-1000 amps on a routine basis.

If you put one of these SCR controllers in an EV with a smaller, more

lightly built motor like an Advanced DC, the high currents are more
likely to damage the brushes than a Curtis controller, which rarely
delivers its rated current.

On range, the SCR controllers are a little less efficient, but not
enough that you would notice without careful measurement. They also
often have bypass contactors, so they are essentially 100% efficient at
full throttle. (Notice that they don't need exceptional amounts of
cooling, which would have indicated low efficiency).

SCR controllers also switch slower than modern MOSFETs or IGBTs. This
makes motor and battery ripple currents higher. This also isn't a
problem with the typical huge amphour capacity forklift batteries, and
heavy forklift motors that have lots of extra iron.

But, if you use such a controller with low-capacity batteries and

lighter motors, the ripple current gets even higher; this increases
losses from peukert effects, and causes extra heating in the batteries
and motor. Indirectly, they reduce range. You can fix this problem by
adding extra inductance in series with the motor, to bring the ripple
current back down under 10-20%.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>
Subject: GE EV-1 Controller Information
Comments: To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>

Hello, I am re-sending the message below because I didn't get my copy of it, so
perhaps no one did. Sorry if it's a repeat. Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------ Hello, My
ElectraVan has its original GE EV-1 SCR controller. It seems to have a small
problem in that it turns on at 20% of pedal travel and off at 0% of pedal travel.
This would be OK except that the SCR's begin pulsing at about 10% of pedal travel.
In other words, the van starts with a bit of a jerk, but the traction can be
backed off to a lower level or even restarted from zero as long as the pedal is
not fully released. So, is this the result of hysteresis in a limit switch that
can be easily adjusted, or is it something more difficult to attack? Better yet,
does anyone know a source of a schematic for this controller? I am qualified to
read it. Thanks, Mike

----------------------------------------------------------------

Hello,

I have a 1979 ElectraVan with a GE EV1 controller. I have a copy of the

service manual for the controller (thanks Bob Wing).

After about 10 minutes of driving, occasionally the SCR's will fire when
the throttle switch opens. Since they are faster than the contactor this
causes a jerk of power applied before the contactor opens. It is more than
an annoyance since the contactor then opens at high current which it
normally does not do.

Because the problem is heat sensitive, I suspect that I have a failing

component problem rather than the need to add some filtering or shielding.
So, is this a well known problem with a well know solution?

Hints and tips are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

---------------------------------------------
Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <[email protected]>
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Wiring help
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Jim, When I first received your mail, I didn't know what to do since I didn't know
what a BDI was. So, after work, I checked all my documentation, and I still don't
know what a BDI is. What does BDI stand for? I have a hunch you are talking about
the controller. My van has an EV-1 GE controller, and it has terminals marked
R1,R2... and L1,L2,... Perhaps you have something very different than my van.
Sorry, Mike -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Wiring help Date: Fri, 23
Aug 2002 16:15:18 -0500 From: Jim Jacobson <[email protected]> Reply-To: EV600-L
-- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> To: [email protected] I have a
wiring question. It's concerns the wire labeled #2 connected to the #15 position
on the BDI. Where does it go? This wire in my van is connected to nothing right
now. I'm hoping it is a clue to fixing my dead van.
1 x-------(13a)-------- x
5 x-------(9)---------- BDI
6 x----------(8)------- x x x
13 x--- |
14 x---
15 X-------------(2)---- ?
Thanks, Jim

--------------------

Jim when I got my bus it had a Curtis controller so

I can not just look at mine. However I have the Jet supplied wiring
diagram
. The diagram
shows wire #5 (orange) to the B terminal and wire #6 (brown) to the I
terminal. They both go to the percent charge
meter. I
can send you a copy of the diagram if you need it.
Rob.
--------------
Rob,

Thanks for the info. My other BDI wires are fine, I really am only
concerned about the #2 wire from the 15th BDI position. Does your
schematic show this wire? I have a wiring diagram of the van, (I don't
know if it is a Jet diagram or not), but my van seems to have some
differences. I also have a Jet 007 diagram which seems to relate more
to my van's wiring. Could you email me off list a photo or scan of your
diagram? That would be most helpful.

How does your van do with Curtis controller? Which model 1221B or
1221C? If I discover that my controller or controller card are shot I
might need to slap a Curtis in there.

Thanks,

Jim

-------------------
From: Rob Vasichek <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Wiring help
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Jim,the Curtis is CRAP!! The ElectraVan is my 4th EV since the mid

70s. I have had a number of Curtis controllers and NONE lasted longer than
several days over warranty! The Curtis in my EZ Go utility cart did not last
and this was LIGHT duty. My Van came with a 1231C that caused me to walk 3
times under warranty. I have an Auburn Scientific now that works well.
I can send you a photo of the diagram, but down load will be quite long.
Send me your E Mail address. Rob.

------------------
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Wiring help
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Jim, I'll bet BDI stands for Battery Discharge Indicator. I have no schematic at
all for its wiring. However, it is completely independent of the controller wiring
and should not affect the operation of the car in any way. It just runs the
discharge meter. Once the car is running, you can deal with fixing or replacing
it. About 18 months ago, I put an electric reverse in my van. In doing so, I had
to understand the controller wiring. I found it very confusing since many of the
wires went nowhere. So, since the van was running, I removed each wire that went
nowhere. Then I made a schematic of what was left. I compared it with some fork
lift diagrams that used the EV-1 controller and convinced myself that I had the
diagram correct. I then designed my new circuit with the electric reverse. My next
step was to strip all of the old controller wiring out. I did this because even
though I didn't have any more dead end wires, I still had wires running from one
end of the box, turn around, and run back to a connection just an inch away from
where it started. When I replaced the wiring, I tried to use colored wires instead
of number tags. I can scan in a copy of the original wiring diagram for you if
you'd like, but I don't have wire numbers recorded, just terminal numbers. Mike _
Phoenix, AZ
--------------------
From: Jim Jacobson/Jane Garvin <[email protected]>
Subject: Wiring help
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

I replaced my low voltage (ignition) relay and now the van works! Since I've been
digging around in the controller area, I've discovered many wiring mysteries to be
solved later. I'm just glad it's running again. Thanks for the responses. Jim

-------------------

Motor / Controller / Battery pack: The good news is that you have eliminated the
motor as a cause. The question now is whether the contactor is dropping out
directly due to low voltage, because the controller senses a fault such as low
voltage, or because the controller itself is faulty. One factor in making the
diagnosis is the type of test equipment that you have available. The next test
that I would recommend is measuring the voltage on the contactor's coil to see if
it is dropping out because it is low, or it is actually being turned off. Since
the relay is chattering, an oscilloscope should be used to see the coil voltage.
An analog meter might work if the meter is fast enough and the chatter slow
enough. A digital meter would be useless. You mentioned that you were having
trouble getting a good current reading. What do you mean by that? Is the original
meter shunt and the dash meter no longer in place? You are correct about the diode
checking advice, but it may not be that simple. The EV-1 is SCR (Silicon
Controlled Rectifier) based and works a little differently than more modern
controllers. If the controller is humming, most likely there is drive (a control
signal) to the power devices. Without a schematic I am guessing here, but there
are probably 3 power devices. A characteristic of an SCR is that it latches in the
on state until the current through it is interrupted. So, at the beginning of a
power pulse, the main SCR is turned on. When the logic of the controller decides
to end the power pulse, it turns on a second smaller SCR to discharge a capacitor
into the motor circuit. This momentary pulse stops (commutates) the main SCR from
conducting. And, since the capacitor discharge is only momentary, the second SCR
turns off as well. The inductance of the motor tries to maintain the current which
causes the voltage across the motor to reverse. This reverse voltage is conducted
by the third power device, a large diode. These three expensive components closely
interact and it is likely that if any go bad, they may all go bad. Plus, they may
be damaged by an incorrect logic signal, so replacing them may only result in a
second failure. I gather that most folks replace the EV-1 controller rather than
attempt to repair it. There is logic circuitry in the EV-1 that tries to preserve
the expensive devices from bad things and stop a runaway condition should one
fail. In other words for any real or imagined fault, the logic opens the main
contactor to stop or limit the damage. In my experience though, the logic shuts
down until the throttle is closed and then reopened. This is not consistent with
the contactor chattering that you observed, and that leads me back to the
conclusion that the pack voltage is falling enough to cause the drop out. I don't
believe that I would try anything with the heater load yet. Another test that may
give you some more information is to measure individual battery voltage under the
contactor chattering condition. You will have to use an analog meter, and scope
still would be best. You may just find a battery reversing. I sure talk a lot.
Mike

-------------------

---------------------------
From: Rob Vasichek <[email protected]>
Subject: Range
Comments: To: [email protected]
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Mike your brake drag should be the same jacked up or on the ground. If
you have way more drag on the ground you need to check wheel bearing adjustment.
Your point about heat is correct. We normal look for a hot wheel if we
suspect a dragging brake. I think tire heat only indicates that the tires
are hot. When I had 145/10 Michelin tires I noticed they ran a lot hotter
then the 145/10 Falken tires. Also the Michelin tires only ran about 6000
miles and the Falkens always ran 11000. How many amps are you drawing at 40 mph
in high gear on a level road with no wind? My Bus runs about 190 amps at these
conditions. Also could you have a bad battery or cell? Did you check voltage
at each battery and S.G. in each cell? Is your controller OK. I noticed
a slight increase in range when I got rid of the Curtis and put in an Auburn
controller. Rob.

------------------------------
Subject: Re: Range
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Rob, I have the original GE EV1 SCR based controller. My ammeter and state of
charge meters are original as well. My indicated current under the same 40 mph
conditions is about 180 amperes. My range on brand new T-125s was about 25 miles
to 80% discharged (20% SOC). Now with about 450+ cycles, my range is about 20
miles. However, the batteries start to boil at 15 miles. Soon it may get cool in
Phoenix and maybe the batteries will stop boiling. In the life of this pack, I
replaced one battery, and the specific gravity of all of the cells is the same and
fine. My research indicated that the original batteries were about equivalent to
Trojan T-125s. Would T-145s be more appropriate? Thanks, Mike

--

============================

Subject:
Re: sources for motor and controllers
From:
"Bob Rice" <[email protected]>
Date:
Sat, 2 Apr 2005 23:41:36 -0500
To:
<[email protected]>

Hi Chris;

Most guys are using ether Warfield, Netgain motors, or Advanced Motors
offerings. I STRONGLY recommend the Warp/Netgain ones because they are, were
designed by guys right here on the List. J Wayland ran ideas that were built
into the new line of traction motors. OK shameless plug here, but when I'm
happy with a product I'll talk about it!!

There are old GE's floating around on the classyfied EV ads. Bulletproof,
and if you lose interest, in a EV they would make good boatanchors<g>! Don't
ya DARE! SOMEbody else would want to buy it out. I made a ironclad offer to
a friend that was gunna build an EV but chickened out. I sed that I would
buy his stuff out at what he paid for it. I found loving homes for
EVerything but the Curtis controller.

Controllers/ A no brainer. Go to Cafe Electric, Otmar is the dean and

garu of the genre! There are old Rapters out there but they, I'm afraid are
orphens, as Damon at DCP isn't making them anymore. BUT he has fixed a few
of mine, but they wern't blown out. Still have the factory smoke inside!
Otmar's Zillas are most any voltage ya want to run, check out his website!

OK guyz I missed stuff, I'm sure? Fill us in on the rest of the stuff!!

Bob..82 Rabbit 9 in motor Rapter controller PFC 20 charger.120 volts worth

of t 105's
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Seeley" <[email protected]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 10:13 PM
Subject: sources for motor and controllers
========

======================================
Mark,

I can think of a few things:

1) The controller is overheating. The controller will limit the current

to avoid damaging itself. The usual cause of controller overheating is
the failure of the blower that cools it. When the controller cools, it
works to capacity again.

2) Bad connection. This means that energy is being released at the bad
connection instead of the motor. So, you can look for some connection
getting very hot. Often, a bad connection gets worse when it heats.

3) Bad battery. Same as #2, except look for a boiling battery.

4) Accelerator pot going bad. This is probably not it since I doubt

whether it would get better after sitting for a while. However, if you
strike out on #1-#3, this is worth checking.

Thanks,
Mike

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Diagnosing temporary Power Loss
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:59:33 -0500
From: Mark Freidberg <[email protected]>
Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]

Normally the ammeter in my Evan will swing up over 200-300 amps if I

step
on the "gas." But on 3 occasions, after traveling several kilometers,
the
ammeter would barely creep over 100 amps and the van would barely
accelerate as I limped on home. But later the Van would operate normally
again. What is causing this?

Mark Freidberg

=================================

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=============
INSTRUMENTATION
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=============

-------------------------------------

...a 150 amp continuous draw which is what the Electra Van will do max.

-------------------------------------
===================================

Yes. The three Electravans I've worked with have standard 500 Amp, 50 mV shunts.

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 02:09:36 -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

>>
>>Does anyone know if the Electravans made by JET used a standard 50mv shunt.

-------------------------------------
I don't know what to conclude from this, but I am getting
> > suspicious that Hall effect meters don't work well with
> > the controller pulses these readings were made while
> > driving. Any advice or comments?

I have also found clamp-on ammeters to be untrustworthy in the presence

of switching noise, and would not trust either of your clamp-on
readings.

I have used a portable digital storage scope to monitor the current

ripple on the batteries in an EV I used to own that also had an EV-1 SCR
controller like yours, and the ripple was the full motor current, e.g.
200A pulses at partial throttle, so it is substantial.

If you are trying to establish the accuracy of the meter movement, you
could remove it from the vehicle and test it by applying an appropriate
voltage for full-scale reading (e.g. if you have a 500A 50mV shunt, and
a 500A full-scale meter, then applying 50mV to the meter should yield
full scale. 0mV should yield 0A. Adjust the movement to give the most
accurate reading at the region of interest.

Shunts are generally pretty accurate and unless subject to mechanical

damage, I don't think you need to worry about the shunt having become
inaccurate over time. However, you could pull the shunt and test its
output (in mV) vs the clamp-on meters with a pure DC load if you wanted
to verify that it is still OK after all these years.

Hope this helps,

Roger.

----------------
Don,

Two (or all three) voltmeters are out of calibration then.

The way to check your meters it is to measure voltage on a band-gap

voltage reference you can ger from digikey or others.
Say, 10V is convenient value. For example, you can use:

0.05% accurate: LT1236ACN8-10 or AD587KN both $6.14

0.1% accurate: ADR01AR %2.93 or LM4040 - $2.39

You can check all your meters against it.

Use spec's temp (usually room 25'C) when you do this.

That above is valid for pure DC measurements though.

When you measure voltage while on charge, results will vary

because of the waveform (not pure DC). Unless you use the scope
to see what you're measuring or you know what the voltmeter
error is, it will be a guess. Knowing the error exactly is near
impossible since the load changes the duration of voltage pulses
present on top of DC voltage, and that skews the measurements for
different voltmeters to different degrees.

Victor

Don Cameron wrote:

> Good question. I have three DVMs, I measured the same battery with each:
>
> Radio Shack: 12.78
> Meterman: 12.82
> OTC: 12.7
>
> I thought maybe the leads have an effect, so I tried each with each other
> leads and get the same results. I wonder, what can be used as an accurate
> voltage reference?
>

--

looks like what you need is a LMV431, the "low voltage" variant of the chip.
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LMV431.html

Here is the "General Description" from the datasheet:

"The LMV431, LMV431A and LMV431B are precision 1.24V

shunt regulators capable of adjustment to 30V. Negative
feedback from the cathode to the adjust pin controls the
cathode voltage, much like a non-inverting op amp configuration
(Refer to Symbol and Functional diagrams). A two
resistor voltage divider terminated at the adjust pin controls
the gain of a 1.24V band-gap reference. Shorting the cathode
to the adjust pin (voltage follower) provides a cathode
voltage of a 1.24V.
The LMV431, LMV431A and LMV431B have respective initial
tolerances of 1.5%, 1% and 0.5%, and functionally lends
themselves to several applications that require zener diode
type performance at low voltages. Applications include a 3V
to 2.7V low drop-out regulator, an error amplifier in a 3V
off-line switching regulator and even as a voltage detector.
These parts are typically stable with capacitive loads greater
than 10nF and less than 50pF."

=======================================

Lawrence, the SOC meters on Jet's an just not very accurate or reliable. Since it
determines state of charge solely based on voltage, it just hasn't got enough info
to do so properly. My Jet 007 twice fooled me when the percent charge gage read
100% but the charger had never been on at all. The batteries were probably at
about 60% charge, but after sitting 14 hours the meter indicated 100%. I suspect
yours is even less accurate for some reason, probably corrosion. After all, it is
25 years old isn't it?

I would get an E-meter or at least an accurate digital voltmeter. Right now you
don't even have a good guess at the true state of charge.

Thanks,

Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
----------------

From: Rob Vasichek <[email protected]>

Subject: 12 inch wheels
Comments: To: [email protected]
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Well I finally had enough of those 10 inch two part tube type wheels. I
made a set (5) of 12 inch tubeless wheels. I am running 155/12 Kelly tires.
$25.00 each. They can carry 882 LBS at 44 psi. This corrected the spedo
error I had with the 145/10 tires. The Bus rides better , steers better and
handles better. I was concerned that the range would be way down due to the
bigger/wider tires but this looks like it is statistically not significant.
Rob.

-------------------
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Range
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Bill, Thanks for the information about your current readings and your confidence
in them. I just borrowed a DC digital clamp on meter to use to check my ammeter. I
am uncomfortable with it since I don't have the manual and thus don't know how it
does its averaging. I moved a magnet through its pickup a few times at different
speeds and it seems to have a fairly long time constant. Oh, the thing is in
pretty rough shape as well; I had to repair the LCD display to use it at all. I
figure that if it reads the same as the van's meter, I'm OK. If it reads
differently, I will have to find another meter. I should get to my testing this
weekend. Do shunts fail? What if I just verified the panel meter's accuracy, and
not the shunt? So, let's jump ahead a little. Let's assume that the ammeter check
out, and my wheel alignment checks out. I think that I am drawing too much current
for the speed. I would next be suspicious of the motor. A year ago, at somewhere
around 10000 miles the brushes died. When I replaced them I thought that I ought
to look at the armature windings. Not having a growler, I ran a 60 Hz current of
about 1 ampere through each adjacent pair of commutator bars in turn and measured
the voltage with a separate pair of wires. All pairs had the same (tiny) voltage
within a close tolerance. I jumped to the conclusion that the armature was OK. I
did no testing of the field. Do you have any suggestions about how I could verify
the motor? Thanks, Mike

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==========
BATTERIES / BATTERY BOX
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=========

Here's a trick for fitting batteries in odd locations. Make your battery
boxes out of 1" styrafoam. It's easy to cut and fit it into the nooks
and crannies. Then fiberglass it, inside and out. Now you have custom
molded, insulated, acid-proof boxes that are tightly integrated into the
unibody.

-------------

Regarding your K&W and battery cleaning, I learned a nice way to clean
from Scott Cornell using Windex. The Windex is slightly alkaloid (or
opposite of the acidic PH gunk that tends to accumulate on your
batteries over time), so it cleans and neutralizes the battery tops. I
spray the Windex on and wipe them off once a month. I have never used
baking soda. Last summer I ran into the GFI-tripping problem with my
K&W. By convention, I check the voltage between the most-positive post
(battery 11+ in my car) to the hatch latch monthly. My car had been
towed behind a dirty ICE car, and the tops of my front batteries got a
lot of carbon and dirt on them. 11+ to hatch went to 100V, although it
had been building up slowly over a month or two. Cleaned the tops as
normal, and still 100V. So I had to find where the leakage was. I
noted that the "phantom" voltage seemed to build, or get larger, the
further away I got from the most-negative post, which is on the #5
battery up front. I de-cabled the front pack, and the only battery
that had a voltage leak to the car frame was #5. Some crud had built
up where it was very hard to clean underneath a cable in the corner. I
cleaned very carefully, but firmly, several times, and finally the
stray voltage went away. I then rechecked the voltages as I recabled
the pack, and the stray voltage stayed very close to 0. Bingo! Happy
K&W! Your alternative is to use an isolated charger such as the Zivan,
but an ironic benefit of the K&W is that it keeps you honest in keeping
your batteries clean.

-------------------------Subject: Re: new electravan owner

Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

I'm in central Illinois. Before putting in batteries I've got to clean out, repair
& repaint the floor under the battery box & put a new bottom on the box as the
owner before last ran down the batteries, let it sit over winter, & several
batteries froze & burst, leaking acid & causing a significant rust problem. If the
new batteries went in first and worked, I don't know when or if I'd get around to
fixing it right. But that's part of getting a bargain. The bus visually seems to
be pretty much ok - no dangling wires or half-baked homebrewed stuff hanging off.
Thanks for the interest. All the help I can get won't be too much, I know. Randy
[email protected] wrote:Hi Randy, Where are you located ? Menlo Park III, Bill,
Glastonbury, CT 1979 ElectraVan 600

-----------------------------
=========================

At 11:18 PM 3/05/05 -0400, Martin K wrote:

> I'm looking for a shunt in the 250 amp range, slightly more or less
> would be fine I assume. I posted this here because I'm looking for a
> used [read: cheaper] one. I'm broke.

Hi Martin

How many millivolts at 250A?

A shunt generates usually 50mV or 75mV for it's full scale continuous current
handling. What is your application?

I'd assume that you have a digital instrument that is scaleable? Or are you just
treating a meter as 100% is 250A (etc).
A shunt is just a low value resistor, if you have means of calibrating, and don't
want extreme accuracy, there is the option of making your own. 75mV at 250A is
0.0003 ohms.

I've mislaid my printout of wire resistance for size for length, but for example
you may find that a certain size of wire gives 75mV across (say) 18 inches. You
could make up a cable that is (say) 24 inches long, with a tap-in point 3 inches
in from each end. You can't put the sense wires into the power crimps, you will
get unpredictable errors. Now comes the hard part - you have to put a known
current through it, and see what your meter (or whatever) reads, then calibrate
accordingly.

I have only done this for a 50A circuit in a mobile home 'house' system. It worked
sufficiently well for their application.

James

----

12" of #10 solid copper wire ~0.001 ohm

1 milivolt per amp!

Simple. Cheap. 10% accurate.

BoyntonStu

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Maki, Garret
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: WTB: shunt
================================
Subject:
E-Meter Blues
From:
"Don Cameron" <[email protected]>
Date:
Sat, 2 Apr 2005 14:49:32 -0800
To:
<[email protected]>

I replaced my blown E-Meter with a new unit today. It all worked, so I

programmed it, then tested it, and I realized the current was reading
backwards.

So I shut everything down, then swapped the leads on pins 2 and 3 (which go
to the shunt). I checked the connections again then powered it up.
Nothing, blank, do display of any kind.

I tested all the connections with a volt meter (carefully), and the E-Meter
has power, ground and voltage from the prescaler.

Any ideas?

thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at

www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/ <BLOCKED::http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>

Subject:
Re: E-Meter Blues
From:
"Joe Smalley" <[email protected]>
Date:
Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:45:14 -0800
To:
<[email protected]>

1) When you removed and reinstalled the fuses, did you do it in the
specified order? Sometimes it makes a difference. Always hook up the blue
wire first, then the red according to page 18 of the manual. Make sure you
don't have a noisy powerup because it can scramble the microcontroller.

2) Did the bargraph come on? Did the Circle letters (V,A,Ah, &T) come on? If
they did, it means the power is connected (pin 5), but there is too little
voltage on the sense input (pin 4). In the Low Voltage section of the manual
(p25), it says the voltage on pin 4 must be at least 10 volts to get the
digits to illuminate.

3) The meter might come up configured for no prescaler. If you press the SET
button for three seconds, you can then press the SEL button until F13 shows
in the display. Press SET until 1 is showing for a 100 volt prescaler or 2
is showing for a 500 volt prescaler. Press SEL to exit the F13 setup.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[email protected]

-----------

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On

Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: April 3, 2005 8:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues

Don Cameron wrote:

>> 1) when I flipped the wires for the current connection, I did not
>> do it at the fuses, I simply swapped them at the back of the
>> meter (pins 2 & 3).
>>
>> 2) there is absolutely no sign of any light on the meter. No LEDs,
>> no digits, nothing :-(

Hmm... it's hard to analyze this sort of problem without seeing it.

Could it be that when you disconnected the shunt wires, you also
disconnected the prescaler's ground? This would open the low side of the
voltage divider in it, and put a tremendous voltage on the voltage sense
input. If this killed the voltage sense input, the E-meter might be working
but thinks it sees zero volts. If I recall correctly, some E-meters blank
the display when they see anything less than ~10v.

Another possibility is that something unrelated also got disconnected, and

you didn't notice. For instance, the + or - wire from your 12v DC/DC
converter that powers the E-meter may have fallen off, or the DC/DC itself
isn't getting power any more. (You *do* have an isolated 12vDC/DC powering
nothing but the E-meter, don't you?)
-------------------------------------

I am using 100 A-Hr. cells paralleled with 200 A-Hr cells, using 30 A fuses
between the two. Because the cell voltage drops steadily as they discharge
and drops more with higher current, they share the load well. However, if
you want around 150 to 180 A-Hr., it will be less expensive, more efficient
in space and less connections to make and maintain, if you just buy the 200
A-Hr cells. I used 100s and 200s because at low voltage and higher current,
(93 V on an 84 V regen controller) I needed more than 200 A-Hr. and there is
no 300 A-Hr. size.

How many cells (what voltage?) and what size/weight vehicle are these for?

Best Regards,
Doug

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: ThunderSky in Parallel

> Would there be any charging or discharging problems with ThunderSky

> batteries hooked up in series/parallel? For example, but together 2 90Ah
> cells in parallel to get 180Ah (or 3 50Ah cells for 150Ah), then hook a
> bunch of those up in a series string?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis

Bill,

I suggest that about 40 200A-Hr cells is the minimum Thunder Sky pack energy
capacity to power a small car - if you back them up with something like 12
of 12V AGM batteries to share the peak load currents of starting and
acceleration. Note that my pack of 26 200 A-Hr and 26 100 A-hr cells is
almost the same capacity as what you are planning to have, and has less
cells to monitor, so needs fewer BMS modules. It is OK for city use, and
does highway at about 55 MPH.. This pack is helped by the 12V lead acid
battery and contactor voltage boost, for short duration higher power when
needed (acceleration and slight uphill grades), AGM "shadow" pack and
regenerative braking (one reason I kept the lower voltage and did the
paralleling of cells) and range extender generator which can supply 50 A of
the load. You may not have planned to use all these aids to extend the
Thunder Sky capability or even 1 of them! Your higher voltage will enable
you to go faster but you will be drawing much more than the recommended 60
Amps for using them efficiently, and waste more of the capacity as heat.
Then you will be deeper-discharging the pack for the same distances
travelled and get less cycles/distance life than you would have otherwise.
That will make the TS pack even more expensive in terms of miles per dollar.
With the amount of money you would invest in this battery pack, it is in
your interest to consider all these factors. I am boosting performance and
stretching the TS capabilities at lower extra cost, by the 4 methods
mentioned above. If cost was not that important and space not a problem,
then you could skip some of those methods and just put in 80 200A-Hr cells
in pairs! I would consider that the minimum quantity for a TS-only (no AGM
support) battery pack. Note that Victor has a higher pack capacity than you
are planning and has added an ultra-capacitor pack to help out with peak
current.
Also consider the affect on actual weight of needing more aluminum end
plates (even though smaller), mounting hardware and cabling, which would
probably offset the higher Wh/kg of 50 A-Hr cells. There is also more to go
wrong with 3 paralleled cells, including accidents connecting and
disconnecting cables while installing or servicing the pack. You can use
120 50 A-Hr cells to move your car, but I think it is "false economy"
considering the likely lower performance and life and more trouble. With 40
200 A-hr cells you are just at the minimum point where you can have 1 clean
string of cells.

My 2 TS//

---------------------------

From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Range
Comments: To: [email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi Mike, T145s will give you more range, but the high temperature (if batteries
get above 115 degrees F ) will decrease the life of the batteries no matter what
lead acid battery you have. Do you have a digital temperature gage ($ 8 from Radio
Shack when on sale) on your battery pack ? Do you have a fan blowing air through
the battery box ? Do you have atleast 1/8 inch (1/4 inch or more would be
better)space on every side of the batteries to allow for maximum cooling area ? I
don't know off hand how high temperature affects battery capacity during a single
cycle if the batteries are not already damaged from excessive boiling just from
running the vehicle. I took the seven year old EV137s out of the ElectraVan and
put them in my 69 VW Beetle after the 10 year old T145s only gave the Beetle about
10 mile range. I will be adding these 10 year old T145s to my windmill / PV
battery bank. I will get a new battery pack for the ElectraVan after checking out
the wheel bearings, installing a new motor, taking care of the transmission
jumping out of reverse (will either change trany, try to fix, or replace trany),
and getting a wheel alignment some time next year I hope as there is just toooo
much to do and not enough time to do everything as usual. Any suggestions for a
new battery pack (T145s, Nickel Zinc, etc.) ? Menlo Park III, Bill On Thu, 2 Oct
2003 13:14:46 -0700 "Michael A. Radtke"
--

Mike, I have
T125s
in my Bus! I view
of your amp reading I think the problem in driving style. I
can easily run my pac down to 80% DOD in 15 miles.
Maybe
you have too many stops?
Hills? Shifting too early?
Also, why would the batteries boil when you are driving? And
at only 180 amps.
Rob.

--

Rob,

The batteries boil because they are old and have a high internal
resistance. Oh, and it still is over 100 degrees every day in Phoenix
with overnight lows of 80 degrees. Higher in the carport where it
charges.

The daily trip is flat but with a few hundred feet altitude gain in the
morning. On a good day, I can drive the 10 miles to work at 40 mph with
perhaps 3 stops. No boiling. The car sits all day in the sun. (It
never rains.) Then the trip home is at 30 mph with heavy traffic. More
stops, but still, I hardly ever use the brakes. When the batteries were
new, I got home with about 50% and no noticeable lack of response. My
acceleration would be considered in the slow. I target 200 amps as my
maximum. Now with tired batteries, I hit a 50% charge at 5 miles from
home and soon I can't keep up with the slowest accelerating traffic.
The batteries start spitting. It takes full throttle to hit 200 amps
once the car is rolling. I get home with 20-30% charge left.

I don't mind replacing the batteries, but I covet that 40 mile range.

Thanks for your thoughts,

-----------------------------
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Range
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Bill, 1) I don't have a fan except for hydrogen removal during charging. I am not
concerned with the battery life at this point. The 450 cycles that I've gotten is
OK with me. I want a 40 mile range on new batteries. 2) No, I don't have any space
between the batteries. The Trojans were a tight fit and swelled as they aged. 3) I
have only just begun looking at a new battery pack. I plan to stick with flooded
lead acid. I have had a few email exchanges with Jim Douglas (management) and
Chuck Pariano (sales) of Douglas battery and they seem to want to be in the EV
market. Thanks for sharing, Mike

---

From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Range
Comments: To: [email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi Mike, Well those batteries that are completely surrounded by other batteries
have been and will continue to overheat while charging and while in use during hot
weather. It is no wonder you have not gotten full cycle life and full range from
such a "HOT" pack. Blowing air over the top will not keep them cool enough. They
must have some space on all four sides to allow maximum cooling. Menlo Park III

--

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==========
DC/DC CONVERTERS
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==========

EVs need 12 volt DC power to operate standard automotive accessories, such as

lights, horn, radio, fans, and such. There are several ways to provide this 12v
power.

You can use a 12v battery and the original alternator, belt driven off the
electric motor. It works the same as it does in a normal car, i.e. it's not
particularly elegant or efficient.

Some budget EVs eliminate the alternator, and just use a large deep-cycle 12v
battery that gets recharged when the traction battery is recharged. It works, but
makes for weak headlights and poor accessory performance unless the 12v wiring is
improved to eliminate the typical 1-2 volt drops between battery and loads.

Another less-than-satisfactory approach is to tap the traction batteries to

get 12v. This tends to unbalance the batteries, and creates safety problems unless
the traction pack is itself a low voltage (24-48 volts).

Most modern EVs thus use a DC to DC converter. This is an electronic power

supply that takes high voltage DC power from the car's traction battery pack, and
provides an isolated 12 volt output to power standard accessories. They are small,
light, silent, and have no moving parts. The DC to DC converter is usually set to
provide a solid 14 volt output
so lights and accessories work the same as they would in a normal car with the
alternator charging the battery. The most common DC/DC converters used in
conversions are made by Todd, Sevcon, Curtis, and Vicor.
 Special thanks to Lee Hart for the assist on this page.

------------------------------------

====================================
I've been pondering a 72/12 volt DC-DC solution for my Citi and
coincidentally the new Astrodyne power supply catalog came in. They
have some new products that are right down our alley and very
affordable.

The first is the SD350 350 watt inverter.

http://www.astrodyne.com/astro/product_main_matrix.asp?dept_id=6&watts=86
Data sheet here:
http://datasheet.astrodyne.com/SD350.pdf

This inverter family is available with a DC input range of 19 to 144

volts. Output is adjustable from 11 to 16 volts at 27.5 amps. $129
in single piece quantities, $119 for 10.

I just got off the phone with an application engineer. One of my

questions was whether this 144 volt rating is working or max. He said
that it could probably withstand 10% more than the rating.

For higher voltages he recommended the AC/DC converter lines that will
run on DC input. This is similar to the Lambda supplies but cheaper.
The SP series will accept up to about 375vdc, minimum of about 120
vdc. They're available in ratings up to 1500 watts (100 amps out). A
320 watt unit (22 amps) is $149. These can be operated in parallel.
The PSP series has an extra terminal to force load sharing for
parallel operation.

I've just ordered an SP350 for my Citi. I'll report on its operation.

Meanwhile, considering the good discount on quantity, someone here

might consider organizing a group buy.

John
---
John De Armond
[email protected]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

---

I may have a clue for you...

The VI-N52-EM data sheet is at

http://www.vicorpower.com/documents/datasheets/ds_megamod.pdf

The VI-BXXX module is described on sheet 10 (page 3-1) of the applications

manual at
http://www.vicr.com/documents/applications_manual/apps_manual.pdf

The B modules have no control circuitry, they need to be clocked by a driver

module.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[email protected]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Matt Holthausen" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 10:00 PM
Subject: Vicor DC-DC VI-N(B)52-EM (from Halted)

>> Hello all,

>> Sorry to bring up this thread again, but I've got a question about one
>> of the units I ordered.
>> Very early on I purchased one of these DC-DC converters from Halted and
>> it sat around for a while. I got around to testing it and it worked
>> fine after I applied 150v to the input - I immediately got 15v out, and
>> didn't have to connect anything to any of the six logic terminals.
>>
>> After this, I decided that I could probably use two of these in my
>> conversion, so I ordered a second (also from Halted, from the same
>> listing on their site). This one just arrived today, and it looks
>> exactly the same, has the same input-output numbers stamped on it (150v
>> 750w in, 15v 600w out) but the model is VI-NB52-EM instead of
>> VI-N52-EM. I connected the input to the same source that successfully
>> ran the other one, and...nothing. It gives me a tiny spark when I
>> connect the (live) input, just like the other one did, but I don't get
>> anything out of it. Any ideas? I was unable to find exactly what the
>> 'B' meant in any of Vicor's literature. Has anyone else seen reference
>> to this model?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Matt Holthausen

---
All Vicor driver modules can be used as boosters. That's what the "Gate
In" and "Gate Out" pins are for. Connect them as show in the Vicor data
sheets.

You only need to trim the one Driver to set the output voltage for all
of them. If you try to separately trim each "booster" driver, you might
get the sort of instabilitiy (noise) you are describing.

Have you checked with Vicor's application engineer? Perhaps the

particular modules you have are "specials" or somehow different?

---
Yeah...and it works...but with sense lines left disconnected (as with
booster modules), she still screams like a banshee.

2nd generation Vicor modules don't distinguish between driver and booster.
Only the 1st gen.

Have you actually tried a 1st gen driver module as a booster as you describe
Lee?
I'd be happy to know.

-Myles

--

>The devil is in the details.

Sorry; you're right! With the standard VI-200 36vdc in, 12vdc out
modules, I had trim resistors on +sense, -sense, and trim to adjust them
both up to 13.5v. In the EV, I powered each input separately from 36v of
the pack. My EV had two 36v packs, and series/parallel contactors, so I
needed two independent DC/DCs to equalize the load.

But when testing on the bench, I used a single 36v supply to power them
both. I found that they did not share the load. Whichever one was
adjusted even 1 millivolt higher delivered *all* the current, until the
load was so great that it went into current limit; then the second one
began supplying current. To fix this, I cranked one VI-200's trimpot
wide open, and connected GateOut of the "driver" to GateIn of the
"booster". This caused them to share the load approximately equally
(their output currents matched within about 10%). I did not notice any
acoustic noise when they were operating this way.

But in my EV, I couldn't tie GateIn to GateOut because the two Vicors do
not share a common ground. So, to equalize the load delivered by each, I
ran them both as Drivers, and added a commoning diode in series with
each output. The diodes caused a small current-dependent voltage drop so
that setting each Vicor's trimpot for the same voltage resulted in each
supplying about the same share of the load current. The diodes also
prevented the Vicors from drawing current *from* the accessory battery
when their inputs were off.

The second case was with a pair of Vicor Batmods being operated as a
driver-booster pair. The booster had resistors on its Vtrim and Itrim
pins to command it to full current. Its actual power output was
controlled by the GateIn-GateOut wire from the driver. Again, I noted no
instabilities or acoustic noise.
-- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead
-- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
----

>If you have a 72V system you might expect that your actual battery pack
>>voltage would vary from around 60 volts to about 90V.
>>Thus I don't see where one of the specified input ranges would cover your
>>needs.

I discussed this with an application engineer. The voltage range is

nominal. If the absolute voltage rating is exceeded the unit shuts
down to protect the FETs, according to him. This is expected
behavior, I think, since it's hard to imagine a high voltage DC/DC
application NOT involving some sort of battery system. Since I plan
to interlock the control system with the charger so that none of the
controls are energized during charging, that problem will be solved
anyway.

>>I would also comment that you need to be careful about these types of power
>>supplies. They aren't designed to be mounted on a vehicle. They won't be
>>protected against water intrusion.

Mine goes in the passenger compartment so that's not an issue.

>>If you leave your converter connected

>>all the time does the fan run all the time?

I forgot to ask the apps guy but I bet that it has a smart fan that
only runs when necessary. Heck, even my cheapie $29 inverters have
that feature.

--

Most of the DC/DC converters will go below the

nameplate rating but are derated in current (unless
they have an undervoltage lockout, but most likely not
until you reach 60Vdc). I say go with it! John's
willing to experiment and maybe we can all benifit.
Rod
--

Regarding using Vicor DC/DC DRIVER modules as BOOSTERs, Lee Hart suggested:

>> ...load was so great that it went into current limit; then the second one
>> began supplying current. To fix this, I cranked one VI-200's trimpot
>> wide open, and connected GateOut of the "driver" to GateIn of the
>> "booster". This caused them to share the load approximately equally
>> (their output currents matched within about 10%). I did not notice any
>> acoustic noise when they were operating this way.

I tried this today----reconfigured one of my semi-hacked-up Vicor Modupac

Driver modules back to its Driver configuration, minus the GateIN filter cap
(so it'd respond as a booster), hooked it up in parallel with a driver
module, and "dzzzzzzt"...same electric frequency-variable banshee sound as
the "booster" module kicks in....
Then, I adjusted the trimpot to the high end of its range and tried it
again.
This time, no "dzzzzzzzt".
Rather, a continuous, soundless transition from 0-9amps (current limit for
one 24v/8a module), then 9-18+amps and finally current limit.

So, now that I know this works with the 24v modules, I need to hack the
24vDC modules out and insert 48v, 150w modules into these Modupacs and
VOILA-----0-3.6kw with 3 PFC Megapacs stuffed with 8 48v modules each. Or
so the theory goes...later I'll add a 3-stage charger control (wish I had
Vicor BatMods...oh well).

Thanks for the help Lee...I was reluctant to simply keep the Driver modupac
module unmodified except for the GateIN filter cap since I expected the
drivers would fight each other. But the Gate modulation prevents that as
long as the "boosters" are trying to put out at least as much voltage as the
driver or booster upstream---at least that's today's theory...

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.

-------

hey I just got a PDF from Mean Well for Power supplies for the PFC50
chargers.

The 125 watt units can be trimmed to 14.25 to 15.5 volts

And you can feed them 127 to 370 DC as well as 90 to 264 VAC. This gets to
be a pretty good DC/DC converter for $70 bucks.

As I have said The Uni input power supplies are getting close to useable
DC/DC converters.

These are the PPS-125 series Supplies

They are 2x what I am using, and 2x the price, But they have better specs
than what I am using now, and You can get them before August '05....

Madman
Manzanita Micro

--------------------------------

NEW Todd 12V charger PC-20 "B" will run on DC

-- POSTed for Gary
DATE: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:06:42
From: "Gary Flo" <[email protected]>

A number of people have posted that the NEW Todd 12V chargers don't
work on DC any more. According to my conversations with Todd
engineers that is not entirely true. They told me that the NEW Todd
PC-20 "B" will run on DC.

None of the others will...yet, but they are working on it.

Gary Flo [email protected] www.innevations.com

--------------------------------
Solid-state chargers
The latest thing in battery charging, these chargers are lightweight (no
transformer) and very efficient, but expensive. The only 2 brands currently
available are from Todd and Statpower. And if they say "50 amp," you'll get 50
amp into empty batteries.. Charging current is controlled electronically for best
efficiency. One note--with Todd chargers (the brand we use here), be careful to
unplug the charger from the generator when starting or stopping it, otherwise the
charger can be damaged over time.
-----------------------------------
=====================================

Mike wrote:

> I need a DC DC converter! I really don't have the money to spend on a Sevcon or
similar model, and need an inexpensive solution so I can drive my EV reliably.
>
> It was mentioned a couple days ago that a computer power supply could be used/
modified to be a DC DC Converter. Will this work on a 90 volt battery pack? Does
anybody have any suggestions/ instructions on how to modify it. I am familiar with
electronics, but not that much with DC DC converters. Also, does anybody have any
experience with Peak to Peack Power DC DC converters
(http://www.peacktopeakpower.com/catalogs/meanweel/sd-200.html)? It looks like it
puts out about 16 amps on 90 volts, and costs only about $77.00.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>

Hi Mike,
Computer power supplies are intended to operate from 87-247 VAC ( I might be off
by a few volts )

Because these are AC volts, the rectified voltage peaks on the low end at
87*sqrt(2) volts, or about 120 volts DC. This is 30 volts higher than your nominal
voltage.

What I am getting at is that it might work, or it might not. I would add a filter
on the input side and be careful of the current on the output.

-Computer power supplies don't back down gracefully, there's a good chance it'll
blow something out if you continually try to draw too much current. You could
compensate for this (If you can get it to make 14 volts!) by feeding your aux
battery from this P/S through a resistor of probably .25 ohms - the logic being
that your aux battery won't let a very large load go below 10 volts (transient),
so you have a 4 volt difference across .25 ohms effectively limiting your current
to 16 amps.

-They also aren't designed to run at more than about 75% of what the nameplate
reads (.25 ohms might be too low).

-You might also need to load the 5 or 3.3v rail a little bit to get 12v out
instead of 11.5 or so.

-There's a chance you could get it up to 13.25v, but I'd be surprised if it would
go to 13.8v like you need, without modifying the feedback divider resistors (if it
has any)

But hey, for $12 it's worth a try:

<http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-163-025&depa=0>

And yes, you can parallel them if you use a resistor on each one (do not connect
the power supplies directly)

Use fuses.
--

Just a few things to look out for here, some PC power supplies
only regulate the 5V (or 3.3V) rail as it is the main voltage
used by the computer. So if you are loading the 12V rail but not
the 5V rail it will not be able to respond to changes in load.
You might find you're only getting 10V instead of 12. And 12V
isn't really enough either, 14V would be much better. One idea
would be to connect 3 of these in series, either 5 + 5 + 3.3 for
13.3V or 5 +5 +5 for 15V. You'd also get a lot more current this
way too, 30 or 40A! Remember PC power supplies are isolated, but
the common (negative) wire is grounded to the chassis of the
power supply. So if you are putting them in series you need to
isolate the ground from the chassis. Using 3 supplies is a bit
messy, but you could take them apart and put them into a single
housing.
------------------------

Message-ID:
From: MitchellOates.com
To: ev.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: More Electravan maintainance. After 18 years sitting you
betc ha.
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:57:25 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

No, it doesn't have a DC/DC. the Lester also charges the 12V aux battery,
it's a total loss system - all the 12V items run solely off the aux battery.
FYI, on mine found that a 40 amp Todd DC/DC along with a Group 75 SLI
battery was more than sufficient - the gas version of these trucks came with
a 35 amp alternator!
As far as the frame, if it's just surface rust, you can get some of that
rust converting black paint in either spray can or brush-on and paint over
it.
--------------------------
Reverend Gadget wrote:

>> While we're on the subject, anyone know of a dc to dc

>> converter to use on a 156V setup? I've only found them
>> to 120V. If there is such a thing I'm sure you guys
>> would know. Thanks

A 156v pack is close enough to the peak of the 120v AC line (120 x 1.4 =
168vdc) that you can use a switching power supply. Just check to be sure
it has a bridge rectifier on its input (which works with DC), and not a
voltage doubler (which doesn't).
-- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead
-- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net

-----------------------
Seth Allen wrote:

>> As for the price: You will find that Vicor DC-DCs cost about a
>> buck a watt or more when purchased in high quantity. And that
>> Solectria DC-DC is more than a Vicor in terms of parts (housing,
>> heatsink, PCB, engineering) and labor, overhead, etc.

Yes; the Vicor module is 90% of a DC/DC converter, but you still need
all those little "extra parts" if it is to work right. Basically, it
needs:

- noise filters
- fault protection (fuses, overtemp limiters, etc.)
- protection diodes (or your battery will discharge back into
the Vicor when off)

>> I always *heard* that they functioned best as a standalone 12V.

>> My suspicion (and it is just that) is that there is not enough
>> resistance between the Vicor and a battery to make life easy on
>> the Vicor regulator.

Correct. The standard Vicor modules are *NOT* battery chargers. They are
precision voltage regulated power supplies. You aren't taking proper
care of a battery by forcing a constant voltage across it. If there is
no voltage change across the battery, then there is never any
charge/discharge current. You don't need the battery at all in these
circumstances -- you might as well replace it with a big capacitor.

If you *do* have a battery, then you need a reasonable charging

algorithm for it. The voltage *has* to be allowed to rise and fall for
the battery to deliver any energy, and for it to properly recharge
afterwards.

Vicor makes special versions of their DC/DCs for battery charging; the
Batmods. They work well with batteries.

Or, you can add parts external to the standard Vicors to accomplish the
necessary functions. Basically, a series diode and fuse (with their
associated resistance0 are a good start. From there, you need to trim
the Vicor's voltage to steer it toward some charging algorithm.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net

----------------
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-===========
BODY ELECTRICAL
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==========

Message-ID:
From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
Subject: More Electravan maintainance. After 18 years sitting you betcha.
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:09:34 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lots of things didn't work electrically. The ground wire on the tailight
harness was disconnected. That sort of stuff. Connected the ground wire.
Sanded the fuse box contacts. That solved everything. However I tried to
remove the passenger compartment light cover and it crumbled in my hand.
That needs replacing. I sanded a lot of the rust on the vehicle and
encapsulated it with green goo. I don't think this thing has a DC/DC
converter so I am considering adding one. Should I sand blast the frame
and paint it or just let it go. Seems it is just surface rust. Lights all
work now including brake lights. That's it for now. Lawrence
Rhodes...........

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==============
INTERCONNECTS AND CABLING
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==============

Mike (and All),

(Mike had asked for details to this previous post off-list, but I thought
other newbies might want some clarification. Lee, feel free to jump in on
this since you suggested it years ago!)

Set your meter to DC millivolts and touch your meter probes to the battery
posts at the end of each interconnect while running your charger. Remember,
you're checking the connection between the lug and the battery terminal
(also the crimp between the lug and wire), so make sure you're measuring at
the battery post and not the lug. On my truck, I do this with the Zivan
bulk charging at 13 amps, and on the RX-7 I use a bad-boy with manners
which is a variac through a full-wave bridge at around 10 amps (as I've
said, I normally use Soneil modular chargers on each battery and 30 amp
FrankenLesters for bulk charging). Since measuring such a low resistance
through the interconnects is difficult, you're instead measuring the
voltage drop with a known current flowing, which through ohm's law equates
to resistance. For a comparison, the short interconnects on my truck vary
from one to five millivolts (with 13 amps flowing), and the two long
interconnects from the back battery packs to the front measure around 16
millivolts each. Finally, the short interconnects on the RX-7 vary from one
to eight millivolts (with 10 amps flowing), and the two longer
interconnects from front to back measure 10 millivolts each.

Hope this helps,

Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/

----------------------
I've always used welding cable extensively in solar power installations. It's
flexible, so it's easy to work with and bend, and doesn't put physical stress on
the battery or inverter terminals.
In normal home-sized systems, I generally use #2/0 for battery interconnects and
#4/0 for inverter cables (and if a big ground wire is needed.)

BUT, welding cable is NOT code approved (NEC) for battery banks/inverters! What
gives?

Personally, I think welding cable is the SAFEST, esiest option. Home Power
Magazine ran a test of welding cable in a sulfuric acid environment (you can
download it at homepower.com) and it performed as well as the code-approved stiff,
nasty cable.

--

Dan, i have to agree,i have used welding cable for almost everything myself. its
way better in flexibility and the multiple fine conductors are more efficient.
We have a great source of big cables here,being near a military base,they use 50ft
long 1/0 to
jump off 24vdc equipment and trucks and they can sometimes be bought for little to
nothing at the auctions.these cables are identical to welding cable,with the fine
strands.It seems as usual,code is slow to change/follow. I have even used one of
these cables to run power to my workshop!
Anything i bury,i do put inside of electrical plastic conduit(pvc) having been
burned once long ago from burying cables directly.
=================

Don,

Did you use noalox or any other anticorrosion compound before crimping?

http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap2.jpg

Before crimp
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap4.jpg
After the crimp - extra noalox is squeezed out
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap5.jpg

End result
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap7.jpg

Nave no problems with my interconnects since day one.

Victor
'91 ACRX - something difrferent

======================================

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:50:14 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I got a half liter of Liquid Tin made by M.G Chemicals. Anyone have
>> experience with this product? I'll be using it to tin my buss bars on the
>> Electravan and other projects as they come up. This will keep corosion down.
>> Says it works in 5 minutes.

I've used it to plate circuit boards. It does work very fast when
it's fresh, although the smell is a bit disturbing. You're going to
want to make sure the metal is very clean before you do it, even
fingerprints show up well. But if the metal is clean, it works great.

I guess the other concern would be that the plating is very thin and
could scratch off easily...I don't know if that would be a problem or
not.

Andrew

----

It's very expensive, and in my opinion, not worth it.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/088.jpg

This picture shows three boards I treated with the stuff. I regret using it
because of its very dull appearance/texture. It's nothing like what you'd see on
a factory-built circuit board, which is what I was expecting. I recommend a 600-
grit sandpaper instead - it looks and solders great.

Hope this can be of help!

- Arthur Matteson

=====================================

Cable connections need to be clean and tightened. Use a baking soda and water mix
to clean terminals. To prevent corrosion of cables on top post batteries, use a
small bead of silicon sealer at the base of the post and place a felt battery
washer over it. Coat the washer with high temperature grease or petroleum jelly
(Vaseline). Then place cable on post and tighten, coat the exposed cable end with
the grease

-------------------------------------
================================

Those bolt post terminals are the worst thing foisted onto the battery
consumer! No matter how you play with the bolt, it STILL pulls out of the lead
post because it ISN'T soldered or anything like that. Sorta the same action
that they got rid of aluninum house wiring, the toothpaste tube effect. The
lead or aluninum squeezes out under pressure nomatter what you do to hold it
tight. If you are buying new batteries. Hey! That's BIG bucks, don't risk your
investment! Get ONLY the SAE automotive post! Insist on it and you will get
35000 miles WITHOUT any post failures, like I have. While yur at it get good
quality HD terminals, get mine from an Interstate dealer, and solder the cables
into them. End of problem! End of Rant.

Bob The best Connections!

============================

Hey Tim, Gadget here, in Los Angeles. If you need some

help with the cables I have all the tools here in my
shop to do it. As far as corrosion control I prefer
using a conductive, anti-corrosion compound such as
KOPR-SHIELD it's basically grease with fine copper and
zinc. It keeps the moisture out as well as aiding with
conductivity.
I also have a machine that will do louvers but I don't
have the tooling for it. still looking for a set of
dies. know where I can find some?
[email protected]

================================
TiM M wrote:

>> How much insulation should I strip from the wire? If I remember
>> correctly the barrel elongates some during the crimp. After the
>> crimp should there be any copper visible between the end of the
>> lug barrel and the cable insulation?

Just strip enough insulation so the wire bottoms out in the lug when the
insulation touches the end of the barrel. No, the lug won't elongate
significantly. Ideally, you'd like as little copper exposed as possible.

>> I'm going to heat shrink the crimps after-wards so this would cover
>> any exposed copper.

That's a good idea. I like to use the heavy-wall kind that has hot melt
glue inside as well to help seal it.

>> Where should the crimps be?

If there's room to crimp twice, split the length of the barrel in half,
and crimp once in the center of each half.

>> What about No-OX (sp) or something along those lines to coat the
>> copper before I crimp? Is there a particular brand out there that
>> is preferred over another?

In theory, your crimper is supposed to develop enough pressure to

cold-weld the copper together, so no grease is needed and it won't have
any effect on the connection. In practice, grease won't hurt, and might
help keep water out in case the terminal gets dunked in water. Some
people use fancy (expensive) concoctions; I just use vaseline.

-=-=-=-=-=-==
HEATERS
-=-=-=-=-=-==

Subject:
Re: Need cheep 12V thermostat circuit OT
From:
James Massey <[email protected]>
Date:
Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:50:05 +1000
To:
[email protected]

At 02:38 AM 17/04/05 -0700, David Chapman wrote:

> I need to come up with a cheap and easy to build but close tolerance thermostat
circuit that will work off 12V. Need to hold 1% or less at 100 deg F and be able
to turn on and off 1 maybe 2 relays. Preferrably without a microprocessor. I have
lots of thermistors & non specialized ICs and the like in the Junqueyard. Anyone
got a junk box circuit to share? Hmm, this MIGHT be ev related if it would work
for a battery heater control. Thanks in advance for any help.

Hi David (and all)

Easy, steal a comparator circuit from any good op-amp textbook. Thermistor goes on
one side of a comparator, (if you need it stable, then an instrumentation op-amp
or comparator). Not much feedback in order to keep down the switching hysteresis.
No doubt someone will be able to lay their hands on something like that.
How accurate do you realy *need* it to be? �1deg F stability, with 0.5degF
switching hysterisis? depending on the thermal lag demand, that could be hard. �
3deg F (6 degree swing max) should be easy.

Simplest way to determine if it is going to be hard, stick a low-mass thermocouple

into the load, power it up, switch off the heater immediately it hits desired
setpoint. Wait for it to run over and see how far it goes over. As it falls back,
immediately it hits setpoint, switch the heater back on and see how far under it
goes.

If it swings far over and under past the desired tolerance range, invest the money
in an industrial PID temperature controller. Good ones start at around $200US
retail, cheaper or surplus ones for less, but if surplus you don't get to choose
your power supply in that case.

I use a lot of the JUMO brand controllers (made in Germany [the former western
part]) and get good results (shameless plug, since we are also local dealers), but
as a low-cost item, they have great features and reliability. DC power supply is
indent-order here, though. And yes, I intend having one in my truck (motor brush
[thermocouple] alarm).

Regards

James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.

--

From:
"Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
Date:
Sun, 17 Apr 2005 06:57:39 -0600
To:
<[email protected]>

Hello David,

When I install my new Zilla, I wanted to read the heat sink temperature and the
water cooling temperature to this unit.

I had existing Stewart Warner 12 volt coolant gage that has a range of 0 to 250
degrees, and a engine temperature gage that has a range of 0 to 600 degrees.
These are the two units I used to read the data.

On any of these gages, you can install a sender that is used for detecting the
pilot flame of a heating system. This sender generates its own current, to drive
the meters.

I used the 0 to 600 degree sender to read the heat sink temperature. I went to a
heating and plumbing supply house where they sell Honeywell flame senders. Took
my multimeter with me to check out the current reading from each sender. Took one
with the highest current reading.

Before installing the sensor, I test it out on the meter, by connecting the sensor
to the meter, bolt the sensor tube down to a aluminum plate, connect my multimeter
temperature sensor to this aluminum plate, for tuning the Stewart meter to the
multimeter temperature data.
Heated up the aluminum and the when the Stewart meter went right to 250 degrees.
The multimeter temperature was about 150 degrees. So, I install a variable
resistance in the Honeywell line to the Stewart gage, and adjusted it until it
match the multimeter gage.

That is all that is to it, just one resistor and a piro-generator flame sensor
Simple and works good.

You could also used this type of sensor on a coolant or oil temperature gage that
has a range from 0 to 300 degrees.

Roland
------
Fortunat Mueller <[email protected]>
Date:
Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
To:
[email protected]

David,

I don't think you are going to get that kind of

accuracy out of a junkyard circuit. The thermocouples
alone will have a resolution of a couple of degrees
unless they are 'special limit' type. By the time you
add a circuit of some kind (especially a junk yard
circuit), i think the best you can hope for is about a
5 degree window.

RTD's are a little more accurate, i think, but I don't

have a lot of experience working with them.

~fortunat
-------------

The absolute simplest is the Dallas Semi One Wire thermostat. You
have to input the setpoint and deadband using the One Wire protocol
but after that, all it needs is power and ground. A third pin is the
thermostat output. Dallas has on their web site a simple serial (and
parallel) port level translator that you could build in an hour or so,
and the necessary software. They also sell the level translators
(what I use) if you don't want to roll your own. A three terminal
regulator, the One Wire device and either a low coil current relay or
a buffer transistor makes up the thermostat. If you need two relays,
simply use two One Wires. Only about $3 ea in single piece
quantities.

Another simple thermostat is a common electronic room thermostat. The

Hunter brand (Walmart) allows the deadband to be set down to one deg.
If you need a remote sensor, simply unsolder the thermister from the
thermostat board and extend it with some shielded twisted pair. A
simple resistor change will make the thermostat run on 12vdc instead
of 24vac. Or an RV thermostat could be obtained
(http://wwww.campingworld.com and other places) that run on 12vdc.

Omega engineering sells some quite inexpensive thermostat modules that

use thermisters.
You might also check places like Surplus Center for surplus modules.

Notice that I've not mentioned any circuits. That's because it takes
a lot of work to achieve 1% accuracy over the long term. Power supply
stability, temperature coefficients of the components, ageing
characteristics are all involved. Given the low cost of thermostats
in general, it seems to me it is better to buy someone else's
engineering via commercially available modules.

John
---
John De Armond
[email protected]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN

---------

Lees point about cheap household thermostats at HD or Menards was plan A2 so I hit
the local Depot and Lo, there on the shelf was a Rite-Temp (SKU 781-151) heat only
unit that was only 10 bucks. 2/3 the size of a pack of cigarettes, runs off 24 Vac
or can be self contained off 2 AA batts and has a onboard relay (rated 30V 2A DC
or 125Vac @ 1A). Score for me as I am running a 25w 12 V load!! What is even
better for EVers is that once I opened the case and figured out what the temp
sensor was (was expecting a thermistor but this one looks like a small glass
diode) it appears that there will be no problem extending the sensor thru the back
of the case so this can be mounted on the side of a (battery?) box and sense the
temperature inside the box. Could control a muffin fan directly or relays for
battery heaters, cabin heater etc. And it looks like with a simple mechanical
modification to the knob stop it can go somewhat above 100 Deg. There is also a
trimmer on the board that I am going to investigate to see if it trims the temp or
the hysteresis. Hmm wonder if I can get some design notes from Rite-Temp? Doubt
it, LOL.

---

I have been using the Rite Temp electronic thermostats to keep my

battery boxes within about 5 degrees F all winter ( I have 4 separate
battery zones). I did as you stated, cliped the thermistor (it does
look like a glass diode, but it's not), put a 20 inch lead on it. Put
the lead with the termistor in the battery box and the relay outside
down low (less chance of H2 burning that way)! I suspect you would
need to replace the batteries every fall to make sure they keep working.
If they do not, I'm on the bus. Haven't had to ride the bus for that
reason yet.

Lynn
14151 miles on my 136V pack of T875's (one died)

See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html

= = = = = = = = =

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=========
ACCELLERATOR
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=========

--
------------------------------------
-----

From: "Michael A. Radtke" <ev@l...>

Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:33 pm
Subject: Re: ITS inductive throttle

ADVERTISEMENT
Jim,

I built a new "pot box" for my Jet ElectraVan. I used a pair of audio
mixer quality linear potentiometers. I used linear pots to simplify the
mechanical design and a pair for redundancy and noise reduction. I
found that I still needed to add about 10 microfarads of capacitance
across the terminals to smooth some of the mechanical throttle linkage
twitches. The result was a small box and sealed except for the throttle
rod egress.

Mike
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=========
CONTACTORS
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=========

======================
Hello Duncan,

If you want the best contactors there is, and don't have to worry about every
replacing it again, or if you do 50 years later, you still can get the exact
replacement to fit the same mountings. My contactors are now 30 years olds and I
just order a spare unit with different coil voltages for some mods.

These contactors are a CableForm Industrial A1200 DC Contactors at 400 amp

continuous rating. They are a open type with silver-cadmium contacts with magnet
blowouts and any other option you want to add to it.

The source is:

Cableform, Inc.
8845 Three Notch Road
Troy, Virginia 22974-9512

Tel: 804-589-8224

---

Much better would be taking it apart and fixing

it!!!
Many times you can clean up the contacts or
silver solder them for a rebuild.
Or just buy the contacts and replace them. Take
them down to the contactor place you went to and they
most likely have the replacement parts if they sell
that brand. Many times other brand contacts will work
or even be an upgrade.
EV Parts or other EV supply stores will have
contactors and parts to rebuild them as most motor
repair shops will.
HTH's
Jerry Dycus
========
---------------
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:49:45 -0700 Toby Basiliko <[email protected]>
writes:
>Ok, list,
> All this contactor chatter has got me wondering about what I have,
>exactly:
>It's the contactor out of the old GE EV1 SCR controller that JET was
>using a decade or two ago. It's reasonably beefy looking, with heavy
>blowouts on the contacts. The coil's rated 108Vdc (!) but there aren't
>any contact ratings. The controller was a 120v setup, so I'm going to
>go
>out on a limb and say it's probably good for 120v!
>Anyone have any guesses on the current-handling ability of this relic?
>Toby
>Contactors

Hi Toby and all,

I used one of those Jet 108 volt contactors when I added a Curtis 1221B
to my Jet. I did check around and GE does offer replacement coils for
that contactor in 12 volts. I used the original 108 volt coil and drove
that with a 12 volt relay. My guesstimate rating on that thing must be
about 400 amps continues and about 600 peak, based on the capabilities of
the SCR controller it was part of. You might want to contact GE to find
out for sure. I have been using mine for almost a year now, and it shows
no signs of pitting or discoloration. I like having the pack voltage
coil, because my car has no DC/DC converter and the small 12 volt relay
pulls much less current than a big contactor. I also don't have to worry
about the contacts bouncing under low voltage conditions.
If you decide to use a small relay to drive the big one like I did make
sure it has 120 VDC rated contacts. I got mine from C&H Surplus
(1-800-325-9465) for $7.95. This is the same Potter & Brumfield
PRD-7DJ0-12 DPST NO that is commonly used for EV heater circuits. Their
stock number is RL9101.

BTW If you want to see how the installation worked out on my Jet, I've
got it on a web page at: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5565/

Thanks,

Mike Chancey
[email protected]

-----------------

>> Installing a freewheel diode across the coil prevents the voltage spike
>> by providing a path for the current to flow at the instant that coil
>> power is removed. The voltage across the coil is now clamped to the
>> diode's forward drop (typically <1V).
>
>
> A little trick I learned when I interned for a contactor mfr. is to put a Zener
diode in series with the diode (oriented the opposite direction). The voltage
rating for the Zener should be roughly what the coil is designed to be driven at.
>
> This e.g. 12V drop will soak up the power stored in the coil much more quickly
than the 0.7V drop of a just a diode. The coil current drops off much faster and
the contacts open with quite a bit more oomph (to the point that can actually hear
the difference).

I do something similar to this. I ship all my Zillas with TVS devices for
placement on the contactor coils. TVS stands for Transient Voltage Suppressor.
These are one small part that essentially acts like two zener diodes back to back.
They offer the advantage of electronic protection of the circuits while also
allowing the contactor coil field to collapse quickly due to the higher voltage.
As an added bonus, they are bidirectional and so there is no need to pay attention
to polarity when installing them. The one I provide is a 1.5KE24CA-T.

Data sheet is available here.

http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Diodes_Inc/Web%20Data/1.5ke6v8(c)a-
1.5ke400(c)a.pdf

If anyone needs one, I'll be happy to mail one to anywhere in the US for a buck.
Shipping and handling included. Such a deal! Or you can order them from Digikey
which is what I do.

btw, If you are using Kilovac contactors beware that a standard diode will reduce
the turn off speed so much that they will no longer meet their ratings. Thanks to
Rich Brown for researching that issue for us all. It was that which caused me to
find the TVS part.

----------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: ElectraVan 600s Reverse & Performance
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>

It's an Albrigh Eng. modem SW202B Reversing Contactor Set. That's right it's a
set. It's two large relays bolted together. They are rated at 250 amps continuous,
360 amps intermittent duty, 1500 amps rupture. Max volts is 120 VDC. Coils are
Dual 12 DVC 1.8 amps. Shipping Weight: 8 lbs. I am assuming that you are using the
stock GE series motor. You know that copper bar in the motor? That comes off and
two wires run from it, to the contactor. The motor negative wire from the
controller, comes off the motor and goes to the contactor. A wire from the
contractor go to the negative on the motor. Confused yet. One look at a diagram,
and you'll get it. The way the contractor works, is one side if the contractor if
energised you will go forward, the other side and you'll get reverse. In driving,
bolt sides are never on at the same time, nor are they ever off. You will need a
SPDT switch to control the contractor. It's not vary hard, I just seem to make it
sound that way. Ken Koch of KTA can help you out. A word of advice. Mount the
contractor in a dust proof box. If dust or dirt get between the contacts, they
arch and slowly get eaten away. I mounted my contractor out in the open first, A
year later I had to replace it because the contacts where burnt up. My new one is
in a aluminum box, with lots of silicone to seal it up. It work great now. Let me
know it you need photos or more info. Eddie KTA Services 944 West 21st Street
Upland, Ca 91784 909-949-7914
-------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]>
Subject: No Backing Out Now
Comments: To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>

Hello, As other folks have mentioned, reverse gear is pretty fragile. I had the
problem of the ElectraVan popping out of reverse. I have a lump in my driveway
that always caused the problem, so I got in the habit of holding it in gear while
I backed up. Last Thursday a lot of bad sounds came from the transmission while
reversing and hence the subject line. I tore down the transmission yesterday and
found all three gears used for reverse trashed. It was pretty plain to see that it
was because of heavy load while only partially engaged. The funny thing is that
the damage was on the side of sliding the reverse idler gear _beyond_ its fully
engaged position. That puzzled me for a while until I determined that the
transmission allowed the shift forks to move beyond the normal detents. This
happens in all gears, but can really only cause the mis-alignment in reverse due
to the way the other gears / synchros work. So, the bottom line is that my habit
of holding the car in reverse caused the destruction. Of course there still is the
question of why these cars like to jump out of reverse in the first place. So, now
I am looking for a new transmission, or transmission parts. Any leads would be
appreciated. I am seriously thinking of just blocking out reverse gear and going
to an electrical reverse. Has anybody done this? Any reason not to? Thanks, Mike
--

I had the exact same problem. Then bang. reverse was gone. I did not go as far
as taking the tranny apart.
Even if I did find the problem, getting parts would be the trickily part.

I went the electric reverse way with a reversing relay from KTA. Works really
well. Shifting from 1st to 2nd in
reverse spooks the heck out of the passengers. :)

I did find a problem with the KTA relay. It has a real problem with dust and dirt.
On our dirt roads, dust gets
between the contacts. Then when you switch to reverse, it arcs across the dust.
Producing a sudden jolt. Not
a big problem, but this arcing destroyed the contacts in about 6 months.

For the next relay, I made a large box to put it in, and silicone it up to keep
the dust and air out. It's been this
way for about 3 years without a single problem.

YFS200
--

1) All three gears in the transmission that carry reverse power were
damaged. I cleaned out the transmission and blocked off the selection of
reverse gear.

2) I elected to do an electric reverse. I cooked up a number of different

designs ranging from a true reversing contactor to building a manual
switch.

3) I was too cheap to spend the $320 on a reversing contactor, so I spent

$100 on some solenoid switches that were rated at sufficient current.
After a lot of effort rewiring the control circuitry I discovered that the
solenoid switches were a bit liberally rated and I was back at square one.

4) Since I could do it without further expense, I then designed and built a

manual switch for the job. After more rewiring, I was reminded why I
changed my career from hardware to software ... ease of debugging designs.
I went through many design / re-build iterations before getting it right.

So, now I have a remote, electrically controlled reverse switch. It has a

status indicator and disables the controller during the forward reverse
transition. I can share more information about my switch but it may be
more appropriate to do so off the list.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice.

Mike - Phoenix AZ
-----------
---------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: contactor

Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Jim, I am leaving town and I won't have a chance to look at the wiring diagrams
that I have. So, my answer is from memory and my memory being what it is ... The
main purpose of the contactor to provide a break in the current should the
controller fail. The box that holds the throttle potentiometer also holds a small
switch which controls the contactor. The idea is that the switch closes which
powers up the contactor before there is enough resistance change to start current
through the controller. If the controller fails on, the driver pulls her foot from
the accelerator and the switch opens, which opens the contactor. What I don't
remember is whether the switch works directly on the 102 volts, or through a PMT
driver. In any case, the controller itself is not involved. The most likely cause
of failure is any connector in the switch circuit. That's where I'd start looking
first. Always open the emergency disconnect before working on the controller. I
short the capacitor with a screw driver, but I have never found a charge on it. If
you don't like the possibility of a bang when you short it, use anywhere from a 10
to 500 ohm 5 watt resistor. Hold it across the terminals for a few seconds. That
would eliminate the surprise of a big spark. Just be sure not to let the discharge
current flow through you. Mike Phoenix AZ PS: When I put in my electric reverse, I
re-wired the entire control system. I found many redundant or unused wires that
were probably vestiges of the original use for the controller in fork lifts. This
is what makes it even more embarrassing that I don't remember exactly what the
contactor circuit looks like.
----