Nothing is better than nothing

Interview with a shaman - brought to you by Discount Buddhism

e are visiting a shaman today. Known by the name of Santos, he is a descendent of the Chan, one of Uruguays indigenous Charras tribes. His institute of shamanism based in Salto, close to the Argentinian border, offers ceremonies and retreats involving ayahuasca, kamb, tobacco and other spiritual techniques. Today he welcomes us in a simple, downtown Montevideo house that is being prepared for this nights ceremony. Large speakers, candles, incense and decoration are set up while the first ayahuasqueros arrive. We sit down with Santos and some traditional Uruguayan Mate tea in the hall and begin our conversation.
[Q] What is the shamans job?

[A] The shamans path is to explore and experience his own fears, principally. Besides that, we can generally speak of the curandero, the one that heals, and the essentialist, the one who transcends the healing function a bit and directly aims at the individuals capabilities to obtain self-knowledge. This is what I am doing in my ceremonies.
[Q] Do you consider yourself as a complete shaman?

[A] I dont consider myself as anything to begin with. When guiding I try to connect with my own guides. I act appropriately to the situation. Nothing else. Shaman is a label that people like to apply to be able to characterize people. I dont live through these kind of characterizations.
[Q] Is it important for you that people respect the plant, that they dont use it for parties on weekends or other playful purposes?

[A] Yes, but because it is impossible. You cannot really abuse ayahuasca. This plant is a shamans plant with an ample spectrum of consciousness. But maybe a user wont always know how to control, resolve, or get out of certain situations. Therefore, I recommend to take it with a person that does know the plant well.
[Q] So you yourself would take it with a guide as well? Or dont you need help in that?

[Q] But now you practice a different style than Santo Daime?

[A] I take it alone, but, for sure, in my first years I was guided. I was initiated within Santo Daime, which is the Brazilian Ayahuasca Church. There we had padrinos for thats what the guides are called in the shaman language. I was guided five years by these padrinos.

[A] For sure. I didnt invent my design either though. It is a canalized design. One day it came to me in meditation. 15 days after that I had the luck to find the internet page of a group in Brazil that practically had the same design, namely the Cu Nossa Senhora da Conceio guided by the padrino Xam Gideon, or Emiliano Diaz by his Christian name. He received the same design like me two years before, without us knowing about it. When I opened their portal I found out they were using the same music on the web like we do in our ceremonies. I couldnt believe it, the same tunes, that was magic. So, afterwards I went and connected with them.

[Q] In a certain way that is the concept of autopoiesis of the Chilean scientists Varela and Maturana: In different places the same actions emerge for the similar situations, without the acting persons communication (see Spanish document for further reading).

[A] I regard that the design of the ceremony exists on a superior plane and that through meditations, it can be accessed. That they have been developing it years before, even with the same music, is indeed very interesting.
[Q] Is the music important in your ceremonies? Does it fulfill the same function as the dancing structure in Santo Daime, or the wooden stick that some shamans would give to ayahuasqueros to ground them?

and the process is perfect alchemy. There are many varieties of ayahuasca, some are made with only one giant vine, others are mixed with a bush called chacruna. You crush the vine and you boil it in water with the leaves of the bush. With this mix you will have to go through some cooking process to concentrate it to finally obtain the brew called ayahuasca. There are indigenous brothers who drink tea made of the vine only without chacruna, but then you have to drink a huge amount, unlike in our ceremonies where you need one, two or three cups.

[A] I do include music a lot in ceremonies. But e.g. in the four to ten day retreats I also do people go through many different experiences - some with ayahuasca, some without (note: Santos also works with kamb, tobacco and other meditative techniques). There it does not matter so much if music is playing or not. The important thing is just that there is the plant. We did ceremonies in absolute silence, for example. Or you could drink it and go out for a hike. This is what I call Bsqueda de la Visin (Search of the Vision). One time I was at a crossroad in my life. I took a very strong ayahuasca and I went out to walk on the beach in Tramandai in Brazil and I walked until exhaustion. The images came but I didnt submit myself to this phenomenological world of visuals because I wanted to have an answer. The Bsqueda de la Visin is trying to reach the connection to what my enclosed purpose is. To obtain an answer is to have a vision of something. In my path I do this practice. There are brothers of other streams like of the Camino Rojo (Red Path) that take ayahuasca in other ways, too. They sit down under a tree and stay there for days.
[Q] Can you explain the technique called Rompiendo la barrera de la ilusin (Breaking the barrier of Illusion)?

[Q] In Brazil Ayahuasca is legal, right? It seems like here in Uruguay the law just disregards the plant.

[A] That is an exercise that I learnt in Cu Nossa Senhora da Conceio. It practiced through taking a very strong ayahuasca called ayahuasca miel, a very concentrated brew. One looks into the horizon, never on a fixed a point, with an open vision of 180 degrees. You can open the arms and see the fingers move at the sides. Let it manifest, with open eyes in plain daylight. And there, well, hahahaha ... Theres the thing.
[Q] How do you obtain the plant?

[A] What is happening here in Uruguay is that we have freedom of cult. All aspects needed for the religious cult cannot be prohibited, as long as they are within the ethical and moral norms. Luckily, there are no satanic or diabolic cults here anyway. Because even the wine of the Christian mass, if taken out of its religious context, can be a lethal drug. If consumed for recreational purposes its very harmful and can create a lot of addiction. Nonetheless, the priest uses it to transmute the blood of Christ. In the same way, we have our wine, which is the wine of the soul, and we drink a little bit. It is impossible to become addicted. Because the path of ayahuasca is very strong, it moves a lot of things for you. That is why it is not for everyone. I always say ayahuasca is for everyone but not everyone is for ayahuasca. For example, we cannot work with users of psychiatric medication and people with acute schizophrenic symptoms, we dont let them drink ayahuasca at all.
[Q] Why shouldnt schizophrenics drink it? What would happen to them?

[A] The plant is autochthonous to the Amazon Basin. The countries pertaining to that basin are Brazil, Peru, Colombia, a bit of Venezuela and the north of Bolivia. I myself produce ayahuasca. I bring it from Brazil

[A] From what I have seen of them is that they might at first hide their symptoms and then they fall into a mysterious delirium. E.g. they would stand up straight towards the wall, facing the portrait of Jesus, and they would start to talk, having a proper conversation with him. They dont have the mental stability to develop the process that ayahuasca can trigger. And there they

go, straight to mysterious delirium. Obviously, that is not what we want. In other cases, like with extremely obese people, ayahuasca is not advisable either.
[Q] Why not?

[Q] Is it a good way to cure the addiction to drugs?

[A] This person already has problems before taking the ayahuasca, like fainting and there is no chance for cardiac reanimation because of the amount of fat. If something happens it will be associated with the ayahuasca and not with their condition.
[Q] So, ayahuasca is a medicine, but you need to bring a minimum level of health to be able to consume it?

[A] Naturally. I have worked with drug abusers of cocaine paste. We treated them with ayahuasca and kamb, which is another medicine, derived from an amazonian frog. In one single session they liberated themselves of year long addictions. Its fantastic.
[Q] It must be difficult to describe what exactly helps them to abandon their addiction?

[A] Yes, basic and fundamental conditions are needed.

[Q] But for example with cancer its a different story?

[A] No, its that it extracts the devil out of them. When they come and take ayahuasca these guys see the devil fly out of their body, and no, it is not metaphoric. They see this horrible, monstruos energy leave the body. People are unaware of that drug addiction also allows unwanted visitors in.
[Q] Is that why there is a lot of symbolism of Jesus and the Virgin Mary here; symbolism that might help you in these processes?

[A] Cancer is something else. Some folks came here with cancer taking ayahuasca and we had tremendous results.
[Q] How does the process of healing occur with ayahuasca? Do you consciously realize how a knot opens or is that happening unconsciously?

[A] I cannot tell you what the plant will show you or should show you. It is something very intimate. If the moment to untie knots comes, she will facilitate this for you. The plant is marvellous, I have seen people solve psychological problems which years of psychotherapy couldnt. Like last night a psychologist came over to take ayahuasca. In years of therapeutic work she could not get her head around her issue. With ayahuasca she arrived at the emotional colour of her problem and resolve it. Today she called me and asked which reason there was for all of that. She always thought she would have understood but she never really had.
[Q] In my first experience with ayahuasca I have seen my own pride and that it impeded me from seeing things truly. Now, I am able to concentrate on the important things like eating or drinking water.

[A] The images that always have accompanied us in the big ceremonies are the ones of the merciful Jesus, because he has been one of the last great masters of love of the past era. He showed the path of love and ayahuasca is love. When people are in their moment of intimate distress or despair they open their eyes and they can find aid and orientation in these images and in what they represent. We need mystic tools and values to strengthen us. It could also be Buddha, Krishna or whoevers image one considers to be a guide or a master. We choose this one to ask for light, energy and love because it is a well known spiritual reference. Beyond all the content of his preaching, there is love.
[Q] The Christians believe we are here in one plane and that there are other realms like paradise and hell. The Tibetan Buddhists believe in six realms - the humans, the animals, the Gods, the Demi-Gods, the hungry ghosts and hell. Do you believe in any of the above, that they really exist?

[A] Sometimes with the force of ayahuasca someone asks for a bit of water, drinks it, and says Oh, how sweet! What is that, did you put sugar in there? and thats because in everyday life we dont realize and for the first time we know why it is called sweet water.

[A] One creates, one creates all the time. You can always create your hell or your paradise. The manifestation of this here and now is you choosing what to take and whom to give power. If you give power to ghostly images, to guilt, to punishment in hell, this is what you are creating. If you choose love, compassion, tenderness, forgiveness, that is also what you are creating. So, when we migrate, or transmigrate from body to spirit, we end our human experience, we are going to the world we have created. Thinking has this function in the etheric energy. When you leave the material world, you are a spirit. For now, you are experiencing

a dimension through the body, as an animal called human. I am experiencing myself in this animal that has certain forms, characteristics, has skin, etc. But I am not this. I know that at one time the human animal will have to die because that is the process. It is the consciousness that keeps travelling life after life, independent of birthplace, sex or race. What transmigrates is consciousness. And my experience of ayahuasca is that it is about love. It is not about inactivity, not about doing nothing. It is the here and now. Between us is love, because if there wasnt we wouldnt have this conversation, there would be apathy.
[Q] What are you referring to then when you talk about the Discipline of Love?

this memory, you know? Love has nothing to do with this consciousness of whether something is right or wrong. The evil is a manifestation of energy like day and night, like the yin, of yin and yang. Im a somebody who loves the day. I need sunshine, I love it. But there are people who cannot live without the night. They are completely nocturnal. So, who am I to judge them? Sure, if I see that someone is doing harm to me, I will not feel untouched or indifferent. If I can do something, I will. But if he is doing damage to me, if I interpret it as a damage, why should I just do damage to him in return? Maybe I dont understand, maybe he lacks understanding, maybe thats his way of processing, to understand something. If there is liberty, if in the divine order this manifestation is allowed, who am I to oppose myself? I am not submissive to that all is well. Of course there are things in this world that are very bad. But everything has its process, everything has its time. We have to wait for a fruit to mature. If we eat it too early it might even be poisonous. The same happens in our lives. Sometimes we have to see such things manifest because the spirit is still maturing. I do not believe there is a single human who has so much destructive power that he can destroy the whole planet. I say this with all due respect. I think that this is a manipulating fear, generating a psychosis of fear, to move the masses. The ones who generate this fear are the same who own oil companies or multinational corporations. They profess to fear, because it is their way to keep you tied up and feeling guilty of something that they enjoy and take pleasure in. I have not seen any ant destroy an entire anthill, that does not happen, brother. So, let us look at us like at a big anthill. None of us has the ability to destroy the planet. Its simple.
[Q] So, you are not scared?

[A] To be committed to the here and now, to the manifestation. Dont ask yourself to love more than you can, more than your consciousness allows you to. There is no ideal, there is no utopia in all this story of love. Love is the capacity to be in harmony with yourself, from within. There is nothing good and nothing bad. When I was facing this immanent, vibrational love being - because it wasnt material, it was energy, it was infinite - I was a tiny ray of light protruding within this immensity. And we were contemplating each other. It radiated so much, never in my life had I felt so much love, even the word love is too shabby to express what it actually is. We are here in this plane to experience the frequency of love, love in emotions, towards the partner, the dog, the car, the motorbike, it does not matter. In everything there is an expression of love. We should not mix it up with attachment, power, need, or the Dont you do that, because you make me suffer, if you love me, dont do that to me for that has nothing to do with love, that is just possessiveness, far away from love.
[Q] After ceremonies everybody recites an invocation to close the fountain of evil. How does that fit in with love? There are e.g. politicians that collaborate to sell products that destroy nature. Whats with these people, do we have to give them love too?

[A] Fear is ignorance of love. It is the absence of love. Whos going to have so much power to destroy a planet? There will always be an anthill required to live on.
[Q] Let us go back to look at the ceremony and your techniques. Why do you say it is better to focus on a question, to form a concise quest, rather than to just to let go and let the plant tell you what you need?

[A] Ill tell you one thing. When I stood before this great immanent being called great spirit, I had no ego, I didnt have this form. I was a pinpoint of light, I had no past or present, or future, or this awareness or

[A] Because many times people dont know why they are actually coming here. To them I say What is it that brings you here, what do you want to resolve?. I want them to have an intention. That doesnt mean they will get the response in the ceremony. Maybe

they will need many more to get to that point, or maybe they get answers but to different questions. This lady came to me the other day and asked advice for her practical life and she said ayahuasca took her to a bombastic journey instead. So I said, See, how miserable and small your problems are? You were drowning in a glass of water!. The ayahuasca gives you an answer, even if it is not what you have asked for. You see it or you dont. At the end, it is not my problem if you do the things you are supposed to do.
[Q] Why and how do you use tobacco?

essence, is sacred too. It is a medicinal plant, that like tobacco has experienced a commercialization of its use. They have put so much crap to it, generated habits of consumption, like with the cigarette.
[Q] Are you for or against the legalization of cannabis here in Uruguay?

[A] But, who are we to legalize nature? What an absurdity of these rubbish systems? Which apparatus of state can think of legalizing nature? Thats something that must have emerged from great unconsciousness.
[Q] And what about alcohol then? Because alcohol is certainly the most widespread intoxicant.

A Well, tobacco, in the autochthonous conception, is the son of ayahuasca. It is a mighty plant, a plant of vision. But it is like with water: The industry put flavours and sugars and stuff that it doesnt need. They made an addictive industry of it. Within ayahuasca tobacco can help you, but it is not for everyone. You need to be able to interact with the plants. Some people just need tobacco in their ceremonies, but there are many more that dont. In the first five years of ayahuasca, I never smoked tobacco.

[A] Yes, but alcohol is an elaborate product, won through distillation of plants, like of the sugar cane. And if it is used for a general healing purpose or for a specific use, like for the skin or something, then its fantastic. But now the common intake makes you hallucinate and addicted. Therefore, I think about the sale of alcohol, like with marijuana. The industry wants these consumption habits, its a multi million dollar business. The government is interested in harvesting the revenue. Now, with a new legalization, imagine the amount of cash flow.
[Q] What can the interest of the French government and former president Sarkozy be to criminalize ayahuasca?

But afterwards I started because I saw that there were certain manifestations and that in my design it would help. But in the design of Santo Daime, in the current of master Irineu, it is not used.
[Q] In daily life, can I use tobacco in a sacred way as well?

[A] What happened with Sarkozy is that he is a large shareholder of mega pharmacological corporates that know what ayahuasca is and that it cures many diseases. That goes against their business. Sarkozy, in his functions as minister before becoming president, prohibited ayahuasca from entering France. Later, as president, he reinforced his policies. He defends his business. Ayahuasca can heal cancer. Ive already seen people cured of cancer. Do you know how much a chemotherapy can cost? Here, you will just take a few plants. They would lose millions.
[Q] I think it cannot be that simple. The fear of Ayahuasca might stem from its strong and weird effects.

[A] Yeah, sure! Look, you can do that with anything, with water if you want. Take a glass of water, and make it a ritual, only with the first one of the day. You can make a similar ceremony of tobacco. Your ceremony.
[Q] What opinion do you have of the rest of the drugs, like marijuana, or of those that are compared to ayahuasca, like San Pedro or LSD?

[A] Well, there are differences. LSD has been invented. It is not natural. The experience of everything that is natural, with plants, that is all sacred: Plants to nourish the body and the soul. And there is a heap of plants to nourish the soul, whether they are called ayahuasca, San Pedro or tobacco. Cannabis, in its

[A] Look at what happened with LSD in the United States. The government allowed the intake of LSD and studied its effects. They found out that users would make themselves much more self-sufficient and stop being stuck so much to the madness of the state apparatus. They saw they were giving power to the individual, power they would not be able to control, because they could not keep up instilling fear, or other idiotic strategies, like they usually succeed in impos-

ing. So, they said, Ah, no, that frees the consciousness too much, it does not serve us, fear escapes us. The great tool of the system is fear. Whether you dont pay or you dont follow the law, you are always facing terrible consequences. But if you take ayahuasca, you dont turn against anybody, you dont turn against them. You just turn towards your own favour. It makes you more complete, more happy as a person. You could live on the mountain, in an apartment, it doesnt matter anymore. The system is not particularly interested in this. It doesnt serve its needs.
[Q] Well, I am optimist. Yoga, vegetarianism, nutrition awareness: There are a lot of new disciplines and ideas coming from the far east making themselves more and more popular in western society. What do you think about them?

[Q] From this viewpoint, do you see an increase in public demand for ayahuasca?

[A] Its like the tide. Sometimes it comes in, sometimes it goes out. Now there is a peak, but as it is going up, it might go down and we will have to go back to making ceremonies for four or five people. The overall volume of people coming here in this five and a half years has exceeded the thousands though.
[Q] It is not like you need a bigger place every time?

[A] Well, fantastic. All that brings consciousness to open itself to love is welcome! However it manifests, if your love awakens, if you get to feel blissful, if you feel integrated, in harmony, happy, welcome to all of this. Nothing is better than nothing. If there is perfect equilibrium, perfect harmony, nothing is better than nothing.
Further information:

[A] No and luckily people move on. This is not a web of people that take ayahuasca and keep trapped in that story, alright? It fills me with pride that people come and then go on. I dont want to gear up a religion here. I dont want to trap people thinking they need to take ayahuasca to liberate themselves and to feel divine love. I give them a good kick and throw them back to the street. People should come, heal, resolve their issues, and then go. For me, thats most important. [Q] Thanks very much for the interview. [A] Thank you.

Santos homepage (Spanish):

http://medicinayahuasca.blogspot.com/

Wall street broker invests all his money in a Peruvian ayahuasca temple:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ommNRJeMQ

Graham Hancock describes his experiences in a banned TED talk (English with Spanish subtitles):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLzgJnh-8pc

Stories on the beloved platform High Existence:

http://www.highexistence.com/ayahuasca-the-humbling-path-to-truth/ http://www.highexistence.com/ayahuasca-a-story-of-death-rebirth-and-love/

Vice Magazines Hamilton hunts down the Kamb frog: Conversation with grandmother ayahuasca:

http://www.vice.com/hamiltons-pharmacopeia/the-sapo-diaries-episode-1-1

http://www.reddit.com/r/Psychonaut/comments/1gy207/i_drank_aya_last_night_for_the_first_time/

Experienced ayahuasca before I was prepared: An article about ayahuasca in music:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Psychonaut/comments/1felya/i_experienced_ayahuasca_before_i_was_prepared_for/

http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/2013/05/ayahuasca_ben_lee_father_john_misty.php

Musician telling us about his album named Ayahuasca in New York:

http://newyorknatives.com/native-underground-underground-thought-welcome-to-the-work-with-ben-lee/#.UbH_xetk8-g

German scientist Christian Rtsch explains the effects of ayahuasca (German):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6spmdLRbnY

Claudio Naranjo discusses with psychiatrists (Spanish):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc8O2Z06LUg&feature=share