Finding Self Through Gestalt Therapy

Fritz Perls delivered "Finding Self Through Gestalt Therapy" as part of the Cooper Union
Forum Lecture Series: "The Self" in e! "or# City on $arch %& '()*+ The tal# includes many of
the same ideas set forth in !riting in Psychiatry in a e! ,ey+ -e have here a taste of Fritz
charming& .oring& infuriating and amazing an audience as he continued to do throughout his
life+ Fortunately& the tal# !as transcri.ed including the long pauses and the /uestion and ans!er
contact .et!een Fritz and his audience+
Joe Wysong
Editor
The Gestalt 0ournal
Cooper Union Forum -- Lecture Series: "The Self"
"Finding Self Through Gestalt Therapy"
Frederick S. erls
Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen: I see quite a number of people still coming in which
reminds me of an old psychoanalytical saying If you!re too early, you!re an"ious# if you are on
time, you are obsessional# and if you!re late, you!re hostile. $o, I hear you %eering at this. Well,
one can say, Whate&er you do is not right. 'r one can %ust say, Well, let!s classify people in
one of the three headings. In any case, I hope that the hostility of the late comers will not
influence us too much.
(ou see, my friends tell me I am a &ery bad lecturer and a &ery good teacher. $o, right now, I feel
&ery, &ery confused. I don!t )now what to do, what to say to you, because I don!t )now what you
want. I )now what I want. I want to get something across, but what do you want* (ou see, this is
my basic question. Whether I deal with a group, or with a patient, I thin) the basic idea is first to
establish: what do you want* +ow, what does a patient want from a therapist* , shoulder to cry
on* -oes he want somebody to confess to* -oes he want a better memory* In any case he wants
something. $o, I wish I )new what you want.
(ou see, I don!t thin) I can gi&e you something through a lecture. I don!t thin) words can con&ey
anything, especially anything about .estalt therapy. Maybe some of you )now something about
a peculiar philosophy, /en 0uddhism. If you )now something about /en, or e&en if you )now
something about .eneral $emantics and the significiances of the non1&erbal le&el, I might be
able to con&ey something to you. 0ut in order to con&ey something, we first of all ha&e to
establish communication.
+ow, communication ta)es place, li)e e&erything, in a field. ,nd the field is, li)e in modern
physics, the basis of .estalt therapy. We are here in a field. In this field there are a number of
people, and there is me. It!s a peculiar, let!s say 0oundary between me and you. 'r as 0uber, a
famous Jewish e"istentialist, would say between the !I! and !the thous!. 2his is, now, the essence
of the !self!. 2he self is that part of the field which is opposed to the otherness. (ou see, you can
loo) for the self. -oes the self e"ist* -oes the I e"ist* Can you dissect the brain and find the
I, or the superego, or the self* -efinitely not. I thin) this is ob&ious. $o what is this self*
+ow the self cannot be understood other than through the field, %ust li)e day cannot be
understood other than by contrast with night. If there were eternal day, eternal lightness, not only
would you not ha&e the concept of a day, you would not e&en ha&e the awareness of a day
because there is nothing to be aware of, there is no differentiation. $o, the self is to be found in
the contrast with the otherness. 2here is a boundary between the self and the other, and this
boundary is the essence of psychology. Inside this boundary, this contact boundary where you
and I meet, inside the boundary there are other disciplines: there is physiology, there is anatomy,
and so on. ,nd outside this boundary there is geography and sociology and so on. 0ut
psychology is e"clusi&ely interested in, and its place is e"clusi&ely, where the self and the other
meet. 'r, if you are outside the field, where a person and society clash, where an organism is
embedded in its en&ironment. +ow this contact boundary, to be sure, is nothing rigid. It is
something that is always, always mo&ing. 2here is always something either coming into the
foreground or receding. 0ut we always meet. Whether I loo) at you and my eyes meet a
picture that I can!t see beyond, whether I hear, whether I feel and touch, always, where I meet
the other there is the boundary. 2here is awareness. 2here is e"perience.
+ow we come to the basis of our approach. +amely, we consider oursel&es, as I consider myself
right now, a part of the field. If I am with the field and e"perience myself and my reactions as
part of the field, then I use myself as a tool of therapy. I get in&ol&ed. I can get in&ol&ed with the
total field situation, which we call sympathy. 'r I can )eep myself out and loo) at the patient
only through the microscope# then I feel empathy. 'r I am not interested# then we call it
apathy. Who listens* 2here is nothing going on.
+ow, what is going on in this field* What is the contact function of myself and the en&ironment*
Well, basically it is in the human being the idea of communication. +ow what do we
communicate and what do we want to communicate* Well, let us first loo) at the different stages
of communication as applying to therapy. I would say the first stage is non1communication. 2he
patient doesn!t )now what he wants# he has nothing to communicate. Whate&er he wants or
needs, as they say in the 3reudian %argon, is repressed. 4e is not aware of anything. $o, after a
while, I am aware of something in the patient. I see that you are playing with your hands, you are
doing this . . . , you are )ic)ing with your foot. In other words, I can already ha&e some
communication.
5ather, the patient, without )nowing it, communicates something to me with his gesture
language, often called fidgeting. +ow this fidgeting is the mast important language with which
the patient, at the non1communicati&e stage, tells us something:
If he does this. . . . .he might tell us he wants to be stro)ed,
If he does this. . . . . it means he probably wants to )ic) us, and
If he does this. . . . . . .it means I am sad or,
if he does this. . . . . .it means I could %ust bite you.
+ow, from there, the state of non1communication de&elops into a state of inhibited
communication. 2his means the patient feels something# he wants to cry# he has secrets but is
ashamed to tell you this. 2his is the moment of the state of inhibition# he holds something in:
inha.ile 6that cannot be handled or managed7. ,nd there you can always see the personal
conflict: one part is turned against the other. We can then deal with this conflict and ma)e clear
to the patient that a part of him, which, for the time being, we call the I is turned against
another part which we might call the self. 4e is nagging himself, he is telling himself, he is
punishing himself. ,nd he is doing all )inds of things with himself, thereby encapsulating him.
Instead of a contact boundary, which in the first state was completely missing, we ha&e now a
wall. 'r, as Wilhelm 5eich used to call it, we ha&e an armor between him and the world. I can
deal with the armor in se&eral ways. I am going to tal) about it somewhat later. 8et me first
finish the de&elopment. +ow, if the patient does not hold bac) anymore, we then get the third
stage, the e"hibitionistic state or random communication. 2his is the state which the 3reudians,
or the psychoanalysts in general, ore satisfied to achie&e. In this state the patient e"hibits his
dreams, he e"hibits his misery, his sins. 4e tal)s about himself. ,nd I call it random
communication because he puts, so to say, the cards on the table, waiting for somebody to pic)
up whate&er he wants to. 0ut this is not yet efficient communication.
2he ne"t state is the efficient communication, where you really e"press what you want, where
the patient really ma)es contact with the therapist. ,nd this is, again, in contrast to the
psychoanalytical procedure which, as you )now, deri&ed a lot of its technique from 3reud!s own
embarrassment. 3reud was a person with tremendous difficulties in ma)ing contact. 4e was a
brilliant writer but he couldn!t go out, he couldn!t meet people, he couldn!t loo) at his patients.
4e complained they were staring at him. 4is whole neurosis was built upon a&oidance of that
an"iety which results out of a good contact.
Efficient communication is so important. (ou can feel an annoyance with your wife, but if you
don!t e"press it fully what happens* Well, you can hold it bac). (ou can be on bad terms for
wee)s, days at least. 0ut if you ha&e it out, if you e"press 3or 4ea&en!s sa)e, let!s ha&e it out,
e&en if you fight, e&en if you ha&e a conflict which can!t be sol&ed, it is still better than ,
certain person doesn!t tal) to me. (ou )now all this )ind of random communication we use to
indulge in.
5ight now I ha&e nothing to communicate. 68ong pause, with uneasy, random laughter from the
audience7
+ow, you see what I %ust did was a typical little piece of .estalt therapy. I %ust e"pressed what I
felt and through this e"pression I managed to go on, I reestablished contact. I felt a warm
laughter. I felt that you were with me at this moment. I was able to finish this unpleasant
situation, this bit of discomfort that I felt, and maybe you felt, when I became silent.
$o, from there we come to the ne"t important point of .estalt 9sychology and .estalt therapy#
namely, the importance of unfinished situations. (ou can belie&e in instincts. (ou can belie&e in
two instincts, as the 3reudians ha&e it, or fourteen, as the 0eha&iorists want it, or you can belie&e
in two million instincts, or unfinished situations, as I li)e to do. I belie&e that our organism is so
complicated that e&ery time something happens to it, is e"perienced by it, we are thrown out of
balance and at each moment we ha&e to regain this balance. 2he scientists call this state
homeostasis, this eternal attempt to regain our balance.
+ow, in this disturbance of balance if something happens which, through something non1self,
comes about then we ha&e the unfinished situation. What does this mean* We ha&e an urge, a
simple urge. 8et!s say, I!m hungry. I eat. 2hen the hunger situation is finished for the time
being. 0ut now let!s assume something interferes. $omething says, ,h, this food is poisoned.
8et!s ta)e the simple case of a paranoiac who thin)s the food is poisoned, because he wants to
poison e&erybody, so he belie&es his food is poisoned. 2his interrupts his need for food, his
eating. $o he stops. 4is hunger remains unsatisfied, and this is the only moment where we, in
.estalt therapy, relate oursel&es and our patient to the past. Where&er we find an unfinished
situation it means we are still carrying with us some business from the past which we ha&e to
finish. ,nd if we don!t do it, well, %ust thin) for a moment of the symptom of insomnia.
What is insomnia, other than the attempt to finish unfinished situations* $ay you ha&e a re&enge
which you ha&en!t carried out, you want to get e&en with somebody. $omebody has hurt your
self esteem. $o you toss and turn until you finally hit on the idea, ,h, this is what I would li)e
to do to him. ,nd then you get angry, not with the dog that is bar)ing outside, but with the
sub%ect with whom you want to get angry. 2hen you can finish the situation either in reality or in
fantasy. (ou might get enough emotional release to fall asleep and then you might ha&e some
dream wherein you actually finish him off. $o, the need for finishing unfinished situations is
another important item of .estalt therapy.
2he ne"t point I would li)e to ma)e is the E"istential aspect. In .estalt therapy we are
E"istentialists, in contrast to being moralists or symbolists. When you loo) into your
relationships with people, into the relationship of yourself with yourself 6or your I with your
self7, you find that you are always, always full of shoulds. (ou should do this, -on!t do
this, 2his shouldn!t be, 2his isn!t fair. In other words, you are always trying to change the
world, to do something and, belie&ing that good intentions are mere words of you should, that
these letters $141'1:181- would ha&e an actual power of transforming reality.
In contrast to this we try to see what e"ists. ,nd what does e"ist are contact functions that stri&e
for creation, for creating situations in which you can complete your own &ocation, in which you
can be and e"perience. 2hese situations are not achie&ed with shoulds, but they are achie&ed
with an"iety. ,nd this is, I would say, perhaps my greatest difference with the psychoanalytical
schools. 2o them an"iety and guilt are the bugs of the neuroses and they say you ha&e to a&oid
creating an"iety in the patient.
2his is e"actly the issue about which we ha&e to tal) right now, the a&oidance of an"iety. 2o be
an"ious is the basis of going forward, of becoming outgoing, of doing something. +ow, what
happens if you are an"ious to do something and you do not dare to ta)e the peep into the
un)nown* (ou stifle your an"iousness, and out of this former state of an"iousness you are no
longer an"ious to do something but you de&elop, instead, a state of an"iety. ,nd, in this state of
an"iety, there is the choice of creation. 2hin) of the actor and his stage fright, and you can see
the two possibilities of an"iety. Either you create defenses, or you create outgoing e"periences.
'.;. (ou might be able to create a mess, a rumpus, a piece of art. Essentially, what you want is
to create something new, something that is not routine. 0ecause, if you are in a state of routine,
and this is, what happens to most, or many of us, you are bored with life, life goes by, nothing is
worthwhile, and once this tendency towards routine, towards li&ing in a safe place has started our
an"iety is then in&ested in defense mechanisms. We ma)e sure that we ha&e enough to eat
tomorrow, we ma)e sure that we get to our %ob in time, we ma)e sure of this, we ma)e sure of
that. 2he more you ma)e sure, the more insecure you become. 0ecause you can!t ma)e sure,
because the dri&e toward the world is there. 2he only state in which you can be absolutely sure is
the catatonic state, where you are dead.
+ow, this an"iety is based on the basic energy in us, of the basic being of the human organism,
namely, to be e"cited. (ou can be either bored 6or indifferent7, or e"cited. 2he e"citement is not
always &isible as e"citement. 2he e"citement can be bloc)ed. 8et!s start from there. 3or e"ample,
it can happen, as it did right now to a number of you, that you bloc) your e"citement and your
interest, and then you are bored. I saw a number of people %ust now yawning. $o, let!s interrupt
this, at this moment, and do a little bit of .estalt therapy, of .estalt group therapy, in order to do
something about the interest that is not here, in this field. May I please as) all of you, or those
who want to play, to close your eyes and imagine you are lea&ing this room right now. .o, in
fantasy, go outside, go to where&er you li)e to go. I will call you bac) in a minute!s time.
6general laughter from the audience7
$ilence. 6little more than half a minute7
I see at least one lady who was &ery bored before, now happy and smiling. ,nd, I hope that one
or another of you has also, in the meantime e"perienced the essence of the unfinished situation.
Maybe you went home or somewhere else, and tried to finish a situation which was unfinished
which you still ha&e to finish. ,ll right, you did it only in fantasy and, if I ha&e time enough, I
might still tal) about that. 0ut I hope that you are now a little bit more e"cited, at least, that you
can produce enough e"citement to pay attention. 'f course, if I ha&e nothing to communicate
you cannot possibly pay attention, you would rather go off to other places. +ow, this e"citement
is not always there as e"citement. (ou see, it changes. It changes mostly into emotions.
E"citement, for instance, can manifest itself first as impatience, then as rage or anger. 'r it turns
out as se"ual e"citement and it can turn into affection and enthusiasm. 'r the e"citement of grief.
2here are all )inds of forms of emotions into which e"citement turns. +ow then, when this
emotion is used by oursel&es for creati&e purposes, the whole catharsis theory is rubbish. +ature
is not so wasteful as to create emotions to throw them away.
Emotions are the &ery means of our ability to ma)e contact. E&en if I hit somebody, it might not
be a pleasant contact, but, at least, it is contact. If I tal) to somebody, it is contact, or potential
contact. 0ut contact is established only if it has the support of your feelings, of your con&ictions.
, scientist who wants to tal) to a scientific audience needs the support of his )nowledge, of his
interest, in con&eying something to that audience. +ow, an"iety is e"citement minus o"ygen. (ou
get e"cited but you don!t breathe, and because you don!t breathe the heart action has to race, to
bring more red blood particles to the different tissues of the organism. 2o cope with a state of
an"iety, breathe fully and, in fantasy at least, ta)e the leap into the future, dare to do whate&er
you want to do. +ot necessarily in reality, and then consider the alternati&e. If I don!t do the
things I want to do, if I build, instead, defense mechanisms, if I am afraid, what happens then*
0y the way, as I want to conclude these thoughts on an"iety, )now that breathing means
e"haling. 2here is a fetish in our time about breathing, the big chest, the he1man fetish that thin)s
breathing is inhaling. 0ut breathing means throwing out the bad air. (ou would not go to a basin
and wash your hands with the water, dirty water, half full in the basin. ,nd you don!t pour clean
water on top of it. +ow the same with breathing. 3irst get rid of the bad air, the carbon dio"ide,
and then bring in the fresh air. If you can do this, the acute state of an"iety, or asthma, will &ery
quic)ly disappear. ,s a matter of fact, in asthma, you often see children forcefully e"haling,
Wwhueeeue . . . whueeeue . . . 2hus nature ta)es o&er. 0ut the child is being told to
breathe. 2o him this means to inhale, and thus you create an artificial conflict in him. ,nd the
same applies to the orgasm, to the se"ual situation. If you don!t e"hale fully you cannot ha&e a
full se"ual e"perience.
+ow, as to the other idea of psychoanalysis, guilt as one of the basis of neurosis. 8et me gi&e you
a )ind of short cut. I )now how dangerous it is to gi&e short cuts if you are not fully &ersed with
the material. 0ut I thin) this little short cut, let!s call it a gimmic), I can use here# it can!t do any
harm.
It might, possible, ease the situation a bit. Especially in regard to guilt. It is a &ery, &ery simple
gimmic) which can help you when you feel terribly, terribly guilty and you do all )inds of things
to atone and to pay for your debts and your guilt. It is the reali<ation that guilt is nothing but
re&ersed resentment. 2here are two e"pressions which you ha&e to redisco&er. 'ne is I feel so
hurt. If you translate it and say, instead, I feel so &indicti&e, ! you are much nearer the mar). I
can e"amine you to see where you feel hurt, or where your poor, poor mother is hurt when you
come home late. If you e"amine where she is hurt, she isn!t hurt anywhere, but she feels &ery
mad at you. 2he same with guilt feelings. 2he other e"pression, I should not ha&e done it can
be translated, always, (ou should not ha&e done it. ,lso, instead of I feel so guilty that I didn!t
do thus and so, say instead, I feel resentful that you didn!t do thus and so. (ou will be ama<ed
how quic)ly you can sense that this is right, that it clic)s, that these guilt feelings and the
feeling hurt were merely hypocritical. 2hey were not honest feelings, they were not genuine.
6long pause7.
4ow is the boredom* 6another long pause7
I wish this was discussion time and you would as) me something, I would li)e to )now what you
want, whether you understood, whether I could ma)e myself clearer, whether we ha&e efficient
communication or not. I wish I could elaborate on this point, or that point, but, apparently, I ha&e
to go on gi&ing my monologue. 6laughter7 Well, let me as) something. 6turns to 3airchild, the
chairman7.
(ah, I am not allowed yet to . . . 6laughter7
Well, then, let me tell you something about my idea of a no mind organism. I don!t belie&e that
we ha&e a mind. 2his sounds &ery funny, I )now. (ou see, I belie&e that we ha&e, still, a
mentality li)e the pre1$ocratean naturalist. 2hey thought the uni&erse was made out of earth,
water, air and fire. $o, we belie&e we are made out of a body, and a soul, and a mind, and a
libido, and on unconscious that is sandwiched between the mind and the body. ,nd especially,
there is always the mind that is loo)ed upon as an entity, as opposed to the body, the mind,
where the associations are running along and pulling each other, as on a string, and somewhere
these are connected with the body. I don!t )now. 4ow* 2here are some &ague theories of 3reud
about psychological equi&alent but these are ne&er made clear. 2hen there is another theory of
a psycho1physical parallelism, that whate&er happens in the physical world happens, at the
same time on the mental le&el, or &ice1&ersa. +ow, my idea is this, I thin) the difference between
earth and water is not that of different entities but, rather, a difference of quantity. 3or e"ample#
ice, water steam and 4=' are different from each other merely by the quantity of temperature and
density. $team is e"istential, and 4=' is symbolic, a representation of the real thing. $omething
similar to this, I belie&e, is the case with us.
2here is first the basis. 8et us call it the animal self. 4ere, we are li)e little children, merely
organic beings with their needs, their primiti&e functions, though often &ery differentiated
functions, and their feelings.
2he ne"t layer would be a diminished layer. I call this the as if layer, or the social layer. In
the social system the loss of nature is replaced by rules of games. $ociety always copies nature
&ery badly, and the worse the copy, the imitation, the counterfeit, the easier it will be for a whole
nation to perish. 2he closer the rules of society, the laws, come to the laws of nature, which
cannot be &iolated without punishment, the more sur&i&al &alue that society will ha&e. 8et us
imagine a society that says, '. ;., now let us play tennis, but if you go beyond this white line,
that is a taboo, you &iolate the rules. If you &iolate the rules, and play beyond the white line, you
will be punished by death. 'f course, this is absurd and I thin) you reali<e that I deliberately
e"aggerated this e"ample. 0ut reali<e that whate&er society is, and does, is an as if function. It
is a game, a game unfortunately, which many people ta)e damn seriously. ,nd this game is
played by different rules in different societies, primiti&e societies and higher societies. 0ut what
is always there is the game. ,nd what is always there is a training in this game, a ritual of doing
things together so that one is sure that e&erybody follows the same rules, so that we all play
cric)et. (ou can see that this as if function is already less intense than the real function. If I
pretend to be friendly, and assume a character, an appearance, then I don!t in&est as much of my
energy as when I really mean to be friendly. 2he whole idea of character structure belongs to this
as if, this social layer.
2he ne"t layer is the fantasy layer, often called mind. 9lease reali<e when we tal) about
mind, in this conte"t, we don!t mean something opposed to the body. 5ather, we mean
something li)e the organism or the body, but in a &ery minute scale. It was 3reud, really, who
first pointed out the importance of this. :nfortunately, he lost it later on. 4e called the thin)ing
process a probe1handling, a trial act. +ow, this is actually what you ha&e a fantasy, or a mind,
for. -on!t be dismayed by the word fantasy, it does not mean that you ha&e to be irrational.
2here is a rational fantasy and irrational fantasy, %ust as our actions can be rational or irrational.
If you want to buy a piece of bread in a strange town it is &ery rational to start by imagining, I
could go this way, or in that other direction, where I saw those shops. In other words, you first
buy in fantasy. ,s a matter of fact, in all the ma)ing sure business I spo)e about in relation to
an"iety, you find a tremendous amount of fantasy wor) in&ol&ed.
(ou may ha&e to see your bass the ne"t morning so you start rehearsing, What am I going to say
to him* What is he going to say* ,nd so on. ,ll the time you try to ma)e sure, you imagine,
you fantasi<e what will happen. 2hen you are ama<ed, because the one thing you forgot to
rehearse will happen.
+ow, the ne"t layer would be co&ered by the isolation, or rarification, or ob%ecti&ation layer.
4ere you tear sounds and tools out of their conte"t and ma)e them ready for a new organi<ation.
3or e"ample, an ape has tools too. 4e ta)es a stic) and gets a banana down. 0ut he throws the
stic) away and the stic) doesn!t e"ist anymore# it recedes in the bac)ground. 0ut once we isolate
this stic) and ma)e this stic) a tool, always handy when need it, then it becomes an ob%ect, not
%ust a means whereby, as before. 2he same with sounds. 2a)e these original sounds, aruah1
gooah. If I use the word aruah1gooah often enough in connection with this then finally,
aruah1gooah will be a means of communication, if I soy this to somebody else, he will bring
me this aruah1gooah, or whate&er it is. 'f course, I cannot go into any greater detail into the
whole question of the relationships of symbolism, and language. I suggest that you read
Wittgenstein 6Tractatus Logico1Philosophicus and the Philosophical 2nvestigations7 about it.
+ow, the ne"t stage, the final stage, is where we combine and organi<e these symbols and tools
into machines and language. 2he essence of a healthy person is that there is a unity, an
integration of all the layers# he does not li&e merely in one le&el. 4e does not use %ust words,
but his words do ha&e feelings and &isions and con&ey all the senses. Words are used as tools.
2he same with machines, with gadgets, and so on. In other words, by integrating all these fi&e
layers we become truly oursel&es, which means, we can disco&er the other, the world. 0ecause,
this is the parado": the more we ha&e the other, the world, the more we can be oursel&es. 2he
more we lose the other, the more we become selfish and self1centered. ,nd the more self1
centered we become, again, parado"ically enough, the less we ore our real sel&es because, then,
we are open to all )inds of intrusions from others.
>:E$2I'+$ ,+- ,+$WE5$
>: (ou as), What does the patient want to )now, what does he want* Well, I thin) I ha&e an
idea what some patients may want, and that is, they want their analyst or therapist to help them
find themsel&es. Is that too big an order*
9erls: 2his is something, again, on which I could tal) for a long while. (ou )now the essence. 'r,
let!s put it this way, there are many dichotomies blooming in today!s psychiatry, and you )now,
they always ha&e dichotomies, body and mind, infantilism and maturity, and so on. +ow one of
these dichotomies is this idea that there is such a thing as infantilism and maturity. If a child at an
age of fi&e years beha&es li)e a child of three years, is this infantile or mature* (ou see how
arbitrary this idea is. 2he fact is that we mature all the time, that our de&elopment, and this is the
essence of growth, is from complete en&ironmental support to a possible complete self1support.
0ut, the child still needs a lot of support. 4e needs to be carried, he needs to be fed, as he gets
older, he needs financial support, he has to be gi&en emotional support, encouragement, and so
on. +ow the essence of the neurosis is that, the neurotic, instead of de&eloping his own self
support puts all his energy into manipulating the en&ironment for support. 3or instance, a
neurotic person cannot appreciate himself, so he tears himself to pieces to get the world to
appreciate him. 4e has not enough self esteem, emotional self support. 2his is where wanting
is of such great importance. It is so simple. We find out what does the patient want from the
therapist and then, we see, this is the &ery thing he lac)s, he needs. 4ere is the &ery attitude
which remained unde&eloped, unfinished in him. ,nd then, rather than pro&iding a goose chase
into the past to see where did he transfer this unfinished situation from, and so on, and so on, we
find out right now, what is he lac)ing* 4ow can we de&elop this lac)ing appreciation as, for
instance, in this case*
+ow, when we find, for instance, that he is depreciating himself, nagging himself all the time, we
ta)e this nagging and direct it toward us. 4ere we find out that he actually wants to nag us, to get
and squee<e some appreciation out of us. 3rom this he learns to appreciate his ability to nag and,
so, he de&elops some confidence from there.
>: I would li)e the doctor to e"plain, what is the real relation between the word gestalt, which
is form, and therapy. ,nd then there is another aspect of the word gestalt, in philosophy, as
used by ;ant. I would li)e to )now the difference between the philosophic and psychologic
aspects of the word.
Chairman: 'h, I!d li)e to hear it. 6laughter7
9erls: Wait. , I thin) it will be more interesting to e"plain what the e"perience, or the essence of a
gestalt, is rather than gi&e a definition or its historical de&elopment. (ou see, we couldn!t li&e if
we would register all the millions of shapes and forms, which we encounter day by day, without
bringing some order into them. ,nd we bring order into them by inherent ability of any
organism, the human as well as the animal organism, to form gestalts. +ow, a gestalt is a
cohesi&e one which you can!t cut up into different ports. (ou can, for instance, tear a house
down into bric)s, into windows, and so on. ,nd when you ha&e all the rubble there, you can
count them, but it!s not a house anymore. +ow, ta)e a quite well )nown gestalt, a melody. ,
melody can be transposed so that each part, each note, is different from the one that was before,
but the melody, the gestalt, is still the same. $o, the word gestalt comes from the .erman word
gestalten. It means form, to ma)e a form, a comprehensi&e one. (ou see, our time is &ery
much inclined to analy<e, to cut things up, to cut people up. ?ery much so. Which reminds me of
a &ery typical thing about growth and this cutting up. ,n old teacher of anatomy always told me
0e &ery careful when you cut up a corpse. (ou see, in a li&ing being the tissue grows again and
the scar heals, but when you cut a corpse, it ne&er grows together again. 2his is the essence of
the gestalt, the comprehensi&e whole, the perspecti&e.
,nd, if you are interested in the philosophical situation, let me tell you this much. 2he whole
idea of semantics, the whole idea of meaning, cannot really be understood without the gestalt
approach, because a meaning is the relation of a foreground figure to its bac)ground. 2his sounds
&ery strange to people who don!t )now anything about gestalt. 8et me gi&e an e"ample of what I
mean. 4ere, far instance, in a typewriter is a certain letter. 2his letter 6l7, can be read as el or
as one, you remember. If you put it in one conte"t, let!s say the word soldier, then this letter
6l7, this symbol, gets the meaning of el. If you type @AB@C then this same symbol 6l7
suddenly ta)es on the meaning of a number. If you use any word, let!s ta)e )ing, and use it in
the conte"t of a card game, this word has a different meaning than if held against the
bac)ground, let us say, of the 0uc)ingham 9alace. $o whate&er there is, the gestalt, which means
the relationship of one part compared with a conte"t, a larger unit, is what gi&es meaning. If you
as) for our meaning in life it means we place oursel&es in relation to the uni&erse, If our
bac)ground is one of religion then we get our meaning, from our beha&ior, according to our
religion.
>: -r. 9erls, I!&e been as)ed &ery frequently by my well intentioned friends, who find me in
therapy. Well, loo), if all you ha&e to do is to find out what happened to you long ago, won!t
you grow*
I reply to them that it is more li)e an emotional retraining. Would you settle this little detail*
9erls: Well, you see, we ha&e to loo) at how we, or originally our en&ironment but essentially we
ta)e responsibility or how we interrupt our ongoing, our natural processes. We interrupt our
processes, we interrupt oursel&es by tensing, by a&oiding, by running away, by de&iating our
attention, and so on. +ow, if we understand this type of interruption and, instead of interrupting
oursel&es, ha&e the courage to interrupt our en&ironment then we can ta)e the choice whether we
want to be polite and neurotic, or impolite and healthy. We can learn to become more outgoing in
reali<ing that in interruption there is contact, and in non1interruption there is isolation and
withdrawal from the world. 2hus we come to ta)ing up the interrupted de&elopment once again.
>: -r. 9erls, you spea) of a need to maintain a )ind of, let!s call it a )ind of mental equilibrium, a
homeostasis, if you will, or completion, as you put it. 9erhaps now, can you tell me what is the
reason for this, or the moti&ation or dri&e behind this need for closure or e"perience* ,nd when
you ha&e completed that can you tell me of any empirical studies which will bac) up your
statement, other than %ust clinical insights by gestaltists li)e yourself*
9erls: Well the question sounds &ery difficult, but actually it is &ery simple. +ow, what happens
if your organism is dehydrated* (ou )now that, for sur&i&al, you need a certain amount of water
in your organism. If it is dehydrated, you cannot thin) well, you cannot digest well, and so on.
Just imagine we are li&ing for ten days without water, in a hot desert. $o you come across a
gestalt in the en&ironment, in the otherness, namely an oasis, the thing, that will attract your
attention. 8et us say you ha&e a minus gallon of water in your system. 2o this minus gallon
you add a plus gallon from the oasis, you put it into your system and you ha&e a plus minus,
or <ero, which is a balance. I call this, lately, a reaching of the <ero1need. I don!t want to go
into technical terms but the essence is that we ha&e a lot of <ero balances required for optimal
functioning. Whether you ta)e the acidDal)aline balance, whether you ta)e the amount of
calcium, of hormones, and so on, that the body requires, there is always an optimum of
functioning. 3or instance, an optimum of functioning of temperature is around EF degrees. If you
ha&e a body temperature of AF degrees, you can!t function &ery well. $o, the unfinished situation
here is a need for a warmth of @G degrees. 2here is always the tendency toward the achie&ing of
this <ero point. If you ha&e a surplus, then you want to get rid of this surplus. If you ha&e a
minus you want to ta)e in this minus. Each breath is such a completion of an incomplete
situation. Just try to stop breathing for three or four minutes and then see if you can reali<e what
an unfinished situation is.
>: -r. 9erls, you mentioned before an idea that you had called the no1mind. I wonder if you
could elaborate on this with reference to the many arguments raised about the e"istence of a
mind, the e"istence of a spirit within the body as an entity from the body, or relating in some way
but still an entity, and how this fits into, whether this is a )ind of mechanistic naturalism. ,lso
whether this !as if that you tal) about, this game, also e"plains religion, philosophy, art,
aesthetics, and how all this fits into .estalt therapy*
Chairman: Can you do this in about BG seconds, doctor* 6laughter7
9erls: (ah, but I want to be polite, I do not subscribe to any mechanistic nor idealistic, let!s call
it, !eltanschauung 6world outloo)7. ,ll these mechanisms, idealisms, or mentalisms, they are all
obstructions of a total whale. If you ta)e a single pencil, a yellow pencil, you cannot say this
yellow is the pencil, you cannot say the wood is the pencil, and you cannot say the carbon is the
pencil. ,ll together, this something can be, or is, a potential pencil. 0ut again, only in the writing
situation. I can use this same pencil as a )ind of le&er.
$o, any )neeling down to words, as words, as absolutes torn out of their conte"ts is without
meaning. 2hat is why I emphasi<ed before that any idea you ha&e, any word you use, can be
understood only if it is related, and clearly related, to the conte"t. 'therwise, what you do is
ad&ertising, you tear things out of their conte"t. (ou print %ust a few words, which are %ust the
opposite of what the critic really meant, and you bluff your way through.
>: Could you gi&e us a little mare information about the therapeutic &alue of breathing, in
.estalt therapy* Is that the same as the (oga system of breathing*
9erls: 2he answer is no. 0ut, you see, this is a good moment %ust to mention something else,
namely, how we deal with questions. 9eople as) questions for many reasons. Mostly, they as)
questions in order to embarrass people, and to a&oid ma)ing a statement. ,ctually each question,
and this is a wonderful thing, each question contains its own answer. 2ry to ma)e a statement out
of any question, li)e the last question. If the questioner had made a statement he might ha&e said
something li)e I am interested in Jungian psychotherapy. I am, also interested in )nowing how
do you compare with this* In other words, we are shifted from his inquiry of a certain interest
which he has and which is worthwhile de&eloping. (ou see, I don!t thin) any answered question
will gi&e you anything for the simple reason that nobody can stand truth if it is told to him. 2ruth
can be tolerated only if you disco&er it yourself because then, the pride of disco&ery ma)es the
truth palatable.
Chairman: ,ll right, here!s a gentleman who will ta)e a chance though. 4e is going to as) you a
question anyway.
>: I!m &ery grateful, -r. 9erls, for your )indness and your great wisdom. (ou said, in the
beginning of your lecture, that if those among us who understood .estalt could understand
/en . . . I!&e ne&er been able to understand either and I wish to get a little help. I am &ery guilty
of falling under your last castigation, but I ta)e the guilt.
9erls: Could you please use the word resentful instead of guilty, and then repeat your
statement*
>: I don!t resent you, I resent myself, I hope that will satisfy you.
9erls: +a, it doesn!t satisfy me. E"cept if you could tell me, in detail, how you resent yourself. I
can!t &isuali<e that.
Chairman: -octor, it would ta)e too long, he %ust told me all he hates about himself. 0ut he still
wants to )now something about /en and the relationship with .estalt therapy.
9erls: Well, I gi&e you a /en answer. If you were hanging on a tree, by your teeth, o&er an abyss,
and your hands are full and your feet are tied, and somebody as)s you 4ow do you want to be
sa&ed* What would you do*
Chairman: I thin) we heard this story a little differently about two wee)s ago, doctor. It was two
men hanging together and one said to the other, 4ow will we sa&e oursel&es*
>: I ha&e two questions, -r. 9erls. (ou spo)e of sympathy, empathy, and apathy, as one being in
emotional rapport with another, in being in intellectual communication with another, and being
completely indifferent to another. (ou also mentioned, at
one time, that you had nothing to say. ,nd when the audience laughed you said that you felt they
were in sympathy with you, that you felt a warmth of human feeling there. +ow, is there any
connection between that and when an obese gentleman falls on the ice and the audience laughs.
Is that sympathy, empathy, or apathy*
9erls# 2his is schoden freude 6pitiful %oy7. 2here are as many different )inds of laughter as there
are of crying. (ou see, crying is not always grief. (ou can cry by being mo&ed, you can cry for
%oy, you can cry for a loss, and so on. 2he same with laughter. I don!t agree with +iet<sche that to
laugh is, always to be mischie&ous with good conscience. 2here are all possibilities, from a slight
smile that is bene&olent to the de&ilish laughter of a stage &illain going 4a, ha, ha, ha, 6&ery
raucous7. 2he ripple of laughter I e"perienced earlier, I e"perienced as something warm.
Whether it was or not I cannot %udge. I can only %udge, and this is what I mean, by my
e"periences, and this is the only thing I ha&e to go by.
>: (ou mentioned guilt, and my question relates to this concept of guilt. I understood from you
that it is not what we thin) it is, in ordinary language, but it!s some in&ol&ed psychological, or
psychiatric, process whereby it is actually re&ersed resentment. Well how about ordinary,
e&eryday things that you can see in the criminal courts e&ery day* 3or e"ample, a man goes out
and steals, he li&es licentiously for wee)s, comes home drun), )ills his wife or children. Isn!t it
normal, and natural, for him to feel a sense of guilt* Is there some re&ersed resentment there*
9erls: (ah. (ou see, if you read -ostoe&s)y, for instance, you notice that the more a person is a
saint, the more guilty he feels. ,nd the more a person is a %u&enile delinquent the less guilty he
feels. I don!t )now whether you )now this, that guilt is not related to doing, but to not doing,
which means, actually, the resentment, that another can do it but that you cannot.
,nd . . .
Chairman: +ot quite satisfied. 4e!d li)e to as) again.
>: 0ut I ha&e spo)en to clergymen, to priests, about that and they ha&e told me where people
ha&e done real wrongs, they!&e )illed, they!&e come bac), and in their confessionals indicated
tremendous guilt, where there was real guilt. I don!t quite agree with you, doctor, if I may.
9erls: Well, I don!t say that there isn!t such a thing as a real guilt. I ha&e been referring to our
feeling of guilt. 2o the neurotic guilt, which is based essentially on thoughts, on feelings, on
dreams, and so on. I don!t soy that a real debt, if you borrowed somewhere a thousand dollars,
that this thousand dollars is not real. 0ut if you imagined you borrowed a thousand dollars from
somebody and then you go to this fellow and say, I am so sorry I can!t pay you bac) the
thousand dollars, I feel so guilty about it. 4e doesn!t quite understand what you are doing. In
your e"ample there may be a certain amount of guilt, but e&en there, there is a tremendous
resentment, though in the form of pro%ection. 2his is strictly for the psychiatrist. In other words,
the resentment is pro%ected. 'ne feels that society resents one!s deeds, and so on. In these cases it
is not as simple as the ones I am tal)ing about. I am referring to the e&ery day I feel guilty, I
shouldn!t ha&e done it, and so on. I should ha&e said this, instead of telling the other person,
(ou should ha&e said this.