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"People have to be
strong to cope with
good architecture"
An interview with Sverre Fehn
By Ingerid Helsing Almaas

Published 10 May, 2010 Share

Sverre Fehn (1924-2009) was an architect and

Norway's only Pritzker Prize laureate.

Ingerid Helsing Almaas is editor-in-chief of

Arkitektur N.

Are Norwegians culturally

closer to to nature than other
people? And why are there no
decent cities in Norway? Sverre
Fehn dispels some myths about
the foundations of
Norwegian architecture.

Ingerid Helsing Almaas: The general

impression abroad is that both
traditional and contemporary
Norwegian architecture is influenced
by two things: our very close
relationship with untouched nature,
and our well developed skill at
building in wood. Do you think
theres anything in this?
Sverre Fehn. Photo: Stina Glmmi. Click to
enlarge

Sverre Fehn: The nature of Norway is

nature untamed by cultivation. Here
in Norway nature is the norm,
whereas in many other places it is the
cultivated land that people take for
granted. In most parts of Europe
almost every tree has been planted,
while here, even in Oslo, you can
build a villa, lets say a villa like Villa
Schreiner, on pristine land. This
aspect of nature in Norway is
sensational. On the other hand, I
dont think Norway has been
especially innovative in this respect.
When someone wants to build a
house, they first cut down all the
trees, then they sow a lawn, and plant
a few plum trees [laughs], and then
along the foundation wall they might
put a row of tulips. Its as if you were
to put a tree in a flowerpot in the
middle of a wild landscape. Its quite
moving, really, theres something fine
about it [laughs]. But this form of
culture isnt particularly inspired... In
Japan, for example, nature is
enhanced, they cut off a couple of
branches, and train and wire them,
and make the tree smaller or larger
and that sort of thing, you could
almost say they torture nature...

"Here in Norway nature is

the norm, whereas in many
other places it is the
cultivated land that people
take for granted."

IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas): But are

Norwegians any kinder? Is this why
they just plant a few plum trees?
SF (Sverre Fehn): No, not at all,
theyre just naive. Or perhaps our
nature is so harsh that we do
everything we can to make it seem
romantic and pretty. But you wont
find anything especially inspired from
an architectonic point of view. And
then this passion for traditional log
houses. All these farms and barns,
they take up so much space, its
absurd to try to develop this trend any
further today. This is also a form of
romanticism that we havent managed
to do anything with we really
havent managed to do much at all
with the log.
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas): So
do Norwegians have a thoughtless
approach to nature?
SF (Sverre Fehn): Yes. Yes, you
could say that.

Nature as metaphor
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas):
Architects have to make a real effort
to get people to understand what they
do. One of the easiest arguments to
use is to associate the project with
nature contact with nature is some-
thing that almost everyone regards as
positive, whether its nature in terms
of a lovely view, or a closer contact
with the landscape and topography. In
Norway its easier to explain
architecture with reference to nature,
or by using natural metaphors, like
calling the building an iceberg or a
birds nest. Isnt that a little
too simple?
SF (Sverre Fehn): Yes, but in
Norway our relationship with nature
is an active one, we escape into it as
often as we can. You cant make
contact with God unless youve been
skiing! Every week! [Laughs.] So there
is something in it. In some projects
this relationship is a fundamental
principle. You follow it to its logical
conclusion and build something like
the Glacier Museum, for example,
which is a kind of altar to nature. You
can go there and worship nature and
find God in nature. But this idea
hasnt been developed very far.
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas):
Does this kind of experience of nature
lead to anything? Some insight?
SF (Sverre Fehn): Nature is
basically cruel. Human nature is also
fairly ruthless, and when it breaks out
it can have quite violent results. We
dont really understand very much
about this aspect of nature. Our
present culture is taking us further
and further away from for instance
perceiving the horse as an animal that
pulls the plough or works as a war
machine. The horse is being reduced
to the level of aesthetics; it flies
around a race track, and its so
beautiful you think youll faint. But
its no longer anything more. Even
though the horse is a fantastic thing
that has shaped a lot of our
technology. So in our culture we are
moving further and further away
from nature, and from nature as
something that we use.
Architecture also follows these
trends. But this means we can become
like the Japanese, who have cultivated
nature in relation to the home: sliding
doors, a view you can look out on, the
way you step down onto the ground,
the stones placed before the threshold
of a door, that kind of thing. Through
their religious philosophy theyve
raised the use of nature to a
philosophy, which has resulted in a
very particular architecture. But if
you try doing something like this in
Norway, as Ive tried to do in Villa
Busk and Villa Schreiner for instance,
it isnt really successful. In cases like
this you work closely with nature and
try to find a cultural expression that
will achieve a dialogue with the trees
already growing there. This is what I
tried to do, but I didnt really manage
it. But after all those houses are also
in Europe, part of a tradition that
includes Le Corbusier and his table
structures, and his very different way
of doing things... It was something
like this I was thinking of when I
created those houses. But in Norway
we havent done very much that
reflects the relationship between
nature and architecture.

"Norwegians worship of
nature consists merely of
going as fast as you can as
far as you can."

IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas): Why is

this? Is it because over the last two
generations people in Norway have
been so prosperous that it hasnt been
necessary for most people to think
very hard about anything, or because
before that we lived under such
demanding conditions that we werent
able to think about anything other
than our basic needs? After all,
Norway was one of the poorest
countries in Europe before the success
story of Norwegian oil began in 1970?
SF (Sverre Fehn): No, we dont
have a philosophy on which to base
our ideas. We have a concept of God,
but thats still rooted in Palestine and
the country of the Jews, which is
natural I suppose... But when we try
to imagine that God is here, with us,
we turn to nature to find out what
constitutes the sacred and the holy...
But then, Norwegians worship of
nature consists merely of going as fast
as you can as far as you can its just
an achievement. You climb to the top
of a mountain and look at the
spectacular view and so on, but this
form of belief is really quite a
simple one.
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas): But
nature isnt anything in itself. When
you stand on a mountaintop and look
at the view and say Isnt this a
marvellous view?, its not nature
thats marvellous, nature just is. You
are the one who feels marvellous on
your mountaintop.
SF (Sverre Fehn): Yes, thats right.

Norwegian cities
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas): But
what about our cities?
SF (Sverre Fehn): If we do have
any cities. Well, the cities are there,
there are urban places in Norway, but
only just. The cities are very small.
 Because people live so close to
each other, cities need a love of other
people. You have to like shoes, your
hat and coat, you must become a
distinctive figure in a place. You have
to love looking at another individual
the clothes theyre dressed in, what
theyre carrying, what mask theyre
wearing. This is what makes a city. I
think this actually has to do with
laziness because people think cities
are productive, but they dont actually
produce anything. The production of
a city serves idleness: chairs, jewels, a
beautiful dress, beds and tables are
conceived and produced in cities.
Everywhere in a city, even on the
street, youll find places to sit. When a
culture has developed up to a certain
point, people have time, they have
time to sit, and to think. This is the
nature of the city, sitting and thinking
and waiting for a war, for the boat
to leave, working out how to
earn money.

"The production of a city

serves idleness: chairs,
jewels, a beautiful dress,
beds and tables are
conceived and produced
in cities."

As soon as youre in the countryside,

youre immediately involved in
production the hay has to be
brought in, the cow has to be milked
and its a hell of a life [laughs]. You
cant turn round without having
something to do. But the city is a kind
of container; the most natural thing in
a city is the chemists, where the
poisons are locked up
 IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas):
Well, in the countryside they have
time off as well...
SF (Sverre Fehn): No, they bloody
well havent.
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas): ...
for weaving rugs and decorating
their things...
SF (Sverre Fehn): No, they sneak
some time in for those activities
during the winter [laughs]. I
remember being interested in the
fishermen on the Spanish coast, that
was before all the hotels were built
there. I was filming the fishermens
houses down by the water. But
although their boats are drawn up on
the beach, the first thing they build is
a wall, and then a house behind it,
and then they cant see the sea from
inside the house. Its not until they
open the door that they come in
contact with production, the beauty
of nature, the fish and grey skies and
hard work. And then they go into
their little walled-in houses, all
clustered together.
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas):
Perhaps to get away from the sea ?
SF (Sverre Fehn): Yes, to avoid
looking at their factory. But this leads
to very beautiful dwellings, very
organised and well thought out... But
if one perceives the city as a function
of the waiting I mentioned above, the
situation changes completely. In a city,
thieves give rise to law courts, and
morality gives rise to the church and
the monastery, and this is quite
different from thinking in terms
of production.

Architecture and democracy

IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas): Whats it
like being an architect in a
democracy? Building projects are
large scale operations and involve a
lot of money and a lot of people. As
an architect, you have to make
decisions on behalf of others, and
sometimes your decisions have to be
altered to fit in with other
considerations and interests?
SF (Sverre Fehn): Yes, but in
urban architecture you must always
have an initial idea, a proposal. Today
proposals have become so
democratised that its no longer a real
proposal. The user or the developer is
actually the one to submit a proposal,
but they dont go through the
government bureaucracy, they go
straight to lets say the city council,
and its the political parties
represented in the council who then
make the decision... Its no longer a
question of beauty or size or anything
like that, its a question of whether the
developer has the right contacts. This
leads to a city based on commerce,
which is what Oslo is becoming.
Theres no brake that can be applied
to such a process. But you dont
actually need a brake, you need a
positive proposal. If you had an
architectural competition, or a City
Architect or planner with a vision...
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas):
Perhaps this also has something to do
with resistance, like in our discussion
about nature? These forces also need
some resistance to develop?
SF (Sverre Fehn): Yes, you have to
be able to put a brake on the process...
Because the people on the city council
arent experts, poor things! But Ive
noticed that if a client is presented
with a really interesting project, they
usually go along with it. But you must
always be in a position to make
a proposal.
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas):
Would you say that the more complex
or diffuse the commission is, the more
important it is to find ones own
approach? In order to present this
initiating proposal?
SF (Sverre Fehn): Yes, of course.
And the weaker the client, the more
you have to contribute, the two have
to balance each other. And yet, if you
provide a weak man with a solution,
hell actually be afraid of it, because it
shows up his weakness. I think people
have to be very strong to cope with
good architecture.
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas): If
youre going to persuade others to
adopt your proposal, you need a
strong argument. But must one have
the gift of persuasion in order to be
an architect? In order to produce a
good design?
SF (Sverre Fehn): No, not at all
as Matisse once said, if you want to be
a painter, cut out your tongue. But
you have to be able to persuade
people and so on ...
IHA (Ingerid Helsing Almaas): But
in this case wouldnt it be tempting to
go with the design that is easiest to
explain? That is the easiest to justify?
SF (Sverre Fehn): Yes, but youre
anyway always trying to find the
simplest solution. There are a lot of
factors you have to take into account,
but a simple solution often provides
answers to several different questions.
But you cant just begin building, you
have to reach an architectonic
expression before you start. The
drawing is vital. To be a good
architect actually requires great
humility. You have to make the most
of the very small amount of
knowledge you possess. Many young
people today dont have the patience.
In my time we had to make maximum
use of what little we had. In my case
what remained was a tiny little villa
this sort of thing is mainly what Ive
been doing. And this kind of humility,
or patience, is basically missing in our
society today.

Facts:

This interview took place in Fehns office in

Oslo, Thursday 18th September 1997. Photo:
Stina Glmmi

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