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1 SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE

2 U . S . SENATE

3 WASH I NGTON , D.C.

7 INTERVIEW OF : ANATOLI SAMOCHORNOV

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11 WEDNESDAY , NOVEMBER 8 , 20 1 7

12 WASHINGTON , D. C .

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17 The interview in t h i s mat t er was held a t t he

1 8 U . S . Capi t ol Building, , commencing a t

1 9 12 : 29 p . m.

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1 APPEARANCES :

2 SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITT EE :

3 Ja son Fos t er , Chief Inv e s ti ga ti ve Counsel ,

4 Chairman Grassley

5 Patrick Dav i s , Depu t y Chief I nves ti ga ti ve Counsel,

6 Chairman Grassley

7 Samantha Brennan , Investigative Counsel ,

8 Cha irman Grassley

9 Dan i e l P . Parker , Inv e s ti ga ti ve Ass i s t ant

10 Chairman Grassley

11 Lee Holmes , Chief Counsel,

12 Senator Graham

13 Brian Pri vor , Seni or Counsel,

14 Sena t or Feinst e i n

15 Heather Sawyer , General Counsel ,

16 Senator Feinstein

1 7 Molly M. Cl a fli n , Counsel,

18 Sena tor Feinstein

1 9 Lara G. Quint, Ch i e f Counsel,

20 Sena t or Whitehouse

21 Sarah Griswold , Counsel ,

22 Senator Feinstein

23 Caitlin Meyer , Pro f essional St a ff Member ,

24 Sena tor Feinstein

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1 APPEARANCES : (Cont ' d . )

2 FOR THE WI TNESS :

3 La rry H. Kr an tz, Esq ., Kr an tz & Berman LLP

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1 I N D E X

2 EXAMINATION BY

3 COUNSEL FOR THE MAJORITY: PAGE

4 By Ms . Brennan 1 2 , 15, 2 0 , 2 5 , 4 0 , 43 , 5 2 , 53

5 By Mr . Foster 15, 23 , 38 , 4 0 , 48 , 50

6 By Mr . Dav is 20

7 FURTHER EXAMINATION

8 By Ms . Brennan 88 , 91 , 97 , 9 9 , 1 00 , 1 01,

9 1 07 , 10 9 , 11 4

1 0 By Mr . Foster 8 9, 90 , 95 , 101, 102 , 104, 110

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12 COUNSEL FOR THE MINORITY

13 By Ms . Claflin 54 , 59 , 62 , 66 , 71 , 77 , 80 , 82

14 By Mr . Privor 65, 79 , 86

15 By Ms . Sawyer 67

16 By Ms . Quint 8 6 , 87

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1 EXHIBITS

2 SAMOCHORNOV EXHIBITS PAGE

3 Exhibit 1 62

4 Email

5 Exhibit 2 72

6 Ema il

7 Exhib i t 3 77

8 Email

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS . BRENNAN : Good morning . This i s t he

3 tran sc ribed interview o f Anatol i Samochornov . On

4 October 18, 201 7 , Chairman Grassley sent Mr .

5 Samochornov a letter stat i ng t hat the Judici a ry

6 Commi tte e was seeking information related to a

7 me eti ng held on June 9 , 2016 , at Trump Tower , as

8 well as r e lat ed mat t ers . The l e tter requ es t ed an

9 interview and certa i n categor i es of documents .

10 In response , Mr . Samochornov has through

11 h i s counsel agreed t o this voluntary i n terv iew.

12 On November 7 , 20 1 7 , Mr. Samochornov ' s

13 counsel sent the Chairman a letter stat i ng that he

1 4 would not b e prod ucing any documents , asse rting

15 that the responsive documents are privi l eged and

16 that there were no responsive d oc uments f or

17 several o f t he requested ca te gories .

18 Would t he wi t ness please s t a t e your name

19 f or the record .

20 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : My full name is Ana t oli

2 1 Vit a lievich Samochornov .

22 MS . BRENNAN: On behalf of the Chairman , I

23 wan t t o th ank Mr . Samochornov f or a ppe a ring here

24 t oday. My name is Samantha Brennan , and I' m

25 Investigative Counsel wi th the Commi ttee ' s

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1 ma j or i t y st a ff .

2 I'll ask everyone else from t he Commit t ee

3 who is here a t the t able t o introduce themselves

4 as well . We 'll get to Mr . Samochornov ' s counsel

5 in a fe w moments .

6 MR . DAVIS: I' m Patrick Davis , a l so with t he

7 ma j or i t y st a ff .

8 MR . FOSTER : Jason Foster, major it y s t aff .

9 MR . HOLMES: Lee Ho lme s , Li ndsey Graham ' s

10 office .

11 MS . SAWYER : Heather Sawyer . I' m wit h

1 2 Senator Feins t ein ' s Judiciary s t af f.

13 MR . KRANTZ : I apolog iz e . I j ust couldn ' t

14 hear it. I' m sorry . Hea t her Sawyer?

15 MS . SAWYER : Sawyer , yes .

16 MR . KRANTZ : Sawyer , S- A- W- Y- E- R?

17 MS . SAWYER : Ye s .

18 MR . KRANTZ : Thank you .

19 MS . QUINT: Lara Quint, wi th Se nat or

20 Wh it ehouse .

21 MS . CLAFLIN: Mol l y Cl afl i n , wi th Senator

22 Feinstein .

23 MR . PRIVOR: Bri an Pr i vor , with Senator

24 Feins t ein .

25 MR . KRANTZ : I apolog iz e . I j ust can ' t

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1 write as fast as you ' re goi ng . What was your

2 name? I'm sorry .

3 MS . CLAFLIN: Mol l y .

4 MR . KRANTZ : Molly?

5 MS . CLAFLIN: Cl a flin, C-L-A- F-L-I-N.

6 MR . KRANTZ : Thank you .

7 MR . PRIVOR: Bri an Pr i vor , with Senator

8 Feins t ein .

9 MS . GRI SWOLD: Sarah Gr i swo l d , with Senator

10 Feinstein ' s staff .

11 MS . MEYER : Caitlin Meyer , with Senator

12 Feins t ein .

13 MS . BRENNAN: The Federal Rules o f Civi l

14 Procedure do no t apply t o any of t he Commit t ee ' s

15 inv e s ti gative act i v iti es , including tran sc ribed

16 interviews. There are some guidelines we f o llow,

17 and I'll go over t hose now .

18 Our ques ti oning will proceed in rounds.

1 9 The majority sta ff wi l l ask quest i o ns fi rst f or

20 one hour . Th en the minority staff will have t he

21 oppo rtunity to ask ques ti ons f o r an equal amoun t

22 of time . We will go back and f orth until there

23 a re no more q ue st i ons and the interview is over .

24 We typically take a shor t break at the

25 e nd o f each hour , but should you n eed to take a

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1 break at any other time , please j ust l et me know .

2 We have an offici a l report e r taking down

3 everythi ng we say to make a wri tte n record, so we

4 ask that you give verbal responses to all

5 q ue st i ons . Do yo u u nders t and?

6 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Yes, I do .

7 MS . BRENNAN: So that the court reporter can

8 tak e down a clear r eco rd, we 'll do our best to

9 limit the number of people direct i ng ques ti ons t o

1 0 you during any given hour to those whose turn it

11 is. It' s a lso i mportan t t hat we don 't t a lk over

12 one ano t her or int e rrupt each other if we can he l p

13 it . That goes f or everybody present at today ' s

1 4 i ntervi ew .

15 Wh ile Sena t o r s o n the Committ ee may

16 o bserve, the Chairman and Ranking Member have

17 agreed t hat only sta ff will ask q ue st i ons .

18 We en courag e witness es who appear b e for e

1 9 the Committee to consult fre e l y wi th counse l if

20 they so choose . You are appearing here t oday with

21 counsel . Counsel , please s t a t e your name for the

22 record .

23 MR . KRANTZ : La rry Kran t z , K-R-A-N-T- Z .

24 MS . BRENNAN: We want you to answer our

25 quest i o ns in the most complete and truth f ul mann er

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1 possible, so we will take o ur time . If you have

2 any questions or if you don't und e rstand any of

3 o ur questi o ns , please let us know . If yo u

4 honestly don ' t know the answer to a question or

5 don't remember , it's best not to guess. Just give

6 us your best recollection. It's okay to tell us

7 if yo u l ear n ed info rmati o n from some o n e e lse if

8 you indicat e how you came to know the informa tion.

9 If there are things th a t you don 't kno w or can 't

1 0 remember , we ask that you inform us to the best of

11 your knowledge who migh t be ab le to provide a more

12 complete answer to the question .

13 It is this Committee ' s practice t o honor

14 va lid common law privilege claims as an

15 accommodation to a witness or party when tho se

16 claims are made in good faith and accompanied by

17 sufficient explanation so th a t the Committee can

1 8 eva luate the claim. When decidi ng whether to

19 honor a privilege , the Commi ttee weighs its need

20 for the informa tion aga inst any l eg itimat e basis

21 for withholding it. The Co mmittee typic a ll y d o es

22 not honor contractual confidentiality agreements .

23 You should understand th at a lthough the

24 interv iew is not under oath , by law you are

25 required t o answer q uestions from Congress

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1 truthfu l ly . Do you understand that?

2 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : I do .

3 MS . BRENNAN: Specifica ll y , 1 8 U.S.C.

4 Section 1001 makes it a crime to make any

5 mater i a lly f a lse, fi c titi ous , or f raudulent

6 s t a t ement or representation in t he course of a

7 congressional investigation . That statute appl i es

8 to your s t a t ements in this interv iew. Do you

9 understand t hat?

10 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : I do .

11 MS . BRENNAN : Wit nesses who knowingly

1 2 provide f alse s t a t ements could be subject to

13 crimina l prosecut i o n and imprisonme nt f or up t o

14 fiv e years . Do you und e rstand t his?

15 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : I do .

16 MS . BRENNAN: Is there any reason you ' re

17 un ab le t o provide truthful answers t o today's

1 8 questions?

19 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : No .

20 MS . BRENNAN : Finally, we ask th a t you do

21 not speak about wha t we d i sc us s in t h i s interview

22 with anyone else outs ide o f who ' s in the room

23 today in order t o preserve t he i n t egr i ty o f o u r

24 investigation. We also ask that you do not remove

25 any exh ibits or o ther Committee documents f r o m the

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1 interview .

2 Is there anything e lse th a t my colleagues

3 fr om the minority want t o add?

4 MS . SAWYER : No , thank you . We appreciate

5 you being here t oday .

6 MR. SAMOCHORNOV : Thank you .

7 MS . BRENNAN: Okay . The time is now 1 2 : 34 ,

8 and we will get started with th e first hour of

9 quest i ons .

10 EXAMINATI ON BY COUNSEL FOR THE MAJORITY

11 BY MS . BRENNAN:

12 Q. Please s t a t e your full name for t he

13 record .

14 A. My full name is Anatoli Vit a li evich

15 Samochornov .

16 Q. Where do you currently reside?

17 A.

18 New York

19 Q. Where are you from origi nally?

20 A. I was born in wha t is now known as the

21 Ru s si an Federat i on .

22 Q. When did you move to the United States?

23 A. I n 1 99 1.

24 Q. When did you become an American citi zen ?

25 A. I do not remember the exact year , but

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1 abo ut 2002 .

2 Q. Are you a dual citizen of the Russian

3 Federat i o n or any o ther country?

4 A. I do not want to correct the esteemed

5 Commi t tee , bu t leg a lly dual c i t i zensh i p is a

6 dubious concept . I do have a second passport of

7 the Russian Federat i o n .

8 Q. What is your educa t ional background?

9 A. I have a Master ' s i n Li ngu i stics and

10 Interpreting and another Master ' s in Business

11 Admi n i s t rat i on .

12 Q. What is your professional background?

13 A. Can y o u specif y what you would l i ke t o

14 know?

15 Q. Different compan i es y o u ' ve worked f o r ,

16 what your title has been , your responsibilities .

17 A. I star t ed my career work i ng f or an o i l

18 services company, Universal Ogden Services . Then

1 9 I moved o n and wo rked o n Wa l l Street f o r Bear

20 S t earns in private client services . Af t er t hat , I

21 have been an i nterpreter , pr o fess i o na l i nterpreter

22 in my own practice . On top of that , I have been

23 doing project managemen t f or a subcon t rac t or o f

24 the U. S . Department of State .

25 Q. Can y o u give us the names o f tho se

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1 companies?

2 A. My first company was called Unive rs a l

3 Ogden .

4 Q. The interpreter service and the last one

5 th a t yo u ment i oned?

6 A. I did no t have a c ompany . Until

7 recently , I had a company established in

8 par t nership with my thr ee colleagues . That was

9 cal l ed I n t erpre t er Bout i que . But for the

10 interpreting practices and for interpreting work ,

11 I a cted a s a sole pract iti oner . Now I have an

12 LLC, again , f or my interpreting business .

13 Q. What is your relat i o nship with the

1 4 Meridian I n t ernational Center?

15 A. I was f o r many years a contracto r f o r the

16 Meridian International.

17 Q. Yo u r Link ed i n p ag e s t a tes t hat you have

1 8 been a "i nterpreter a t high -leve l UN and private

1 9 sector meet i ngs f or the Secretary o f State and

20 oth e r VI Ps ." For wh i ch Secre t a ry of Stat e did you

21 s erve as an interpreter?

22 A. I have served as an interpreter for

23 Secre t a ry Clinton on one occasion . I was invited

24 by t he It a li an mission to serve a t a dinner f or

25 f oreign minist ers o n the -- wi thin the G- 2 0

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1 meeting at the UN . I have two or three times

2 int e rpr e t ed for Secretary Kerry when he had

3 meetings with his counterpart , Mr . Lavrov , and the

4 group rounds about Syria . I have also interpreted

5 Mr. Obama ' s summits a t the United Na tions, and I

6 believe Vice President Joe Biden also spoke th e r e .

7 Q. Do es that cover all of the VI Ps who y o u

8 described in that j o b description , or a re there

9 o thers?

10 A. I ' ve been interpreting f or 20 years .

11 We 're going to be here for a long time. I've

12 interpreted for many CEOs of U.S. companies ,

13 nonprofit world pe o ple . I int erpreted f o r No bel

14 Prize winner Svetlana Alexievich last year . So

15 quite a few peo ple .

16 Q. Have you ever held a security clearance?

17 A. I have wha t is known as a public trust

18 clearance , but I never had anything beyond that.

19 Q. And y o u presently have that public trust

20 clearance?

21 A. As f a r as I'm awa re, yes .

22 BY MR . FOSTER :

23 Q. Can you explain to us what th a t means?

24 A. Well , my understanding is that is basic

25 backgro und check, that I'm n o t int o drugs , I am

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1 who I say I am, that I pay taxes on time, and

2 basically I do not li e or misrepresent myself , and

3 I am a person who cou l d be tru s ted with the

4 assignments that I ' m given .

5 BY MS . BRENNAN :

6 Q. And can you explain your role at th e

7 Interpreter Bouti q u e?

8 A. We found ed a company with two p a rtners to

9 try to drum up mo re work f o r ourselves .

10 Q. Have you ever worked f or the Russian

11 Gove rnment?

12 A No .

13 Q. Have you ever wo rked for any government

1 4 oth e r th a n th e Unit ed States Go ve rnment?

15 A. No . I h ave prov i ded interpret a t i o n f o r

16 Kazakh Government , but typically the way it is

17 handled is by an i nterpreting a gency . So the

18 interpreti ng agency wo uld ask me to interpret , and

19 I did interpret for Presi d e nt Nazarbayev , I think

20 onc e for his d a ught e r , and l as t y ea r or was it

21 this ye a r? -- for the Prime Mi n i s ter of

22 Kazakhstan . But there is an interpreting agency

23 th a t cont a c t s me for t h i s wo rk , so I never

24 direc t ly contracted with any for e ign government .

25 Q. When did you first have communicati o ns

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1 wi th Nata l ia Vese l n i tskaya?

2 A. I me t her in the fall of 2015 .

3 Q. And h o w did y o u fir s t connec t wi th her?

4 Did you initiate the contacts? Did she , or a

5 third par t y?

6 A. It was ano t her par t y . It was a colleague

7 interpreter -- his name is

8 - who called me and asked me if I would be

9 ava il ab l e to d o some substitute work f o r him f o r

10 the depositions, and he gave me the dates, and I

11 a greed t o it.

12 Q. So he had been doing interpreter --

13 A. I b e l ieve s o . I 'm not 100 perc e nt sure .

14 I t hink he was an interpreter in par t of the

15 Prevezo n case , bu t the n for some reason he wasn 't

16 able to continue , and he asked me to -- whether I

1 7 would be able to step in.

18 Q. To the bes t o f your knowledge, is Ms .

1 9 Veselnitskaya an att o rney f or th e Russian

20 Gove rnment?

21 A. Yo u have to de fin e the quest i o n. What do

22 you mean by that? What is an att o rney for the

23 Russian Government?

24 MR . KRANTZ: Does she represent -- are you

25 ask i ng d o es sh e repr e s e nt --
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1 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : No . To the best of my

2 knowledge , no . I'm awa re th a t Ms . Vese lnitskaya

3 s tarted her career many years ago -- she t o l d me

4 that herself -- as a prosecutor in the Moscow

5 reg i onal prosecutor's of fi ce . But I have never

6 been made aware or known anything that would

7 indicate that she ' s presently emp l oyed in any

8 capacity by the Russian Governmen t.

9 BY MS . BRENNAN :

10 Q. Other than being a prosecutor , do you

11 know if she ever has represented t he Russ i an

12 Governmen t ?

13 A . No .

14 Q. When you first int e racted with Ms .

1 5 Veselnitskaya , what d i d you underst and her

16 business to be?

17 A. I underst and th a t she was t here

18 repres en ting her client , Mr . Ka t syv , Mr . Den is

19 Katsyv , who I also met at that time . And there

20 were t hree witnesses in a civil case t hat they

21 were prepar i ng f o r the deposition . So my

22 understanding was that she was the representative

23 o f t he Prevezon gro up o f compan i es .

24 Q. Did you have a con tr ac t wi t h her

25 persona l ly?
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1 A. No . I had a contract with

2 BakerHostetler , the law firm that r ep resent ed her

3 at the time.

4 Q. Has Ms . Veselnitskaya ever paid you for

5 your services?

6 A . Yes.

7 Q. Can you explain that?

8 A. Prevezon litigation proved out to be a

9 complex o ne, and the case was s tayed and their

10 counsel disqualified. And when she came, I

11 believe a t t he end o f 2 01 6 , to engage a second

12 counsel , before we could resume the arrangement of

13 me being paid by a l ega l firm, she paid for my

1 4 services for t he invoic e once in, I b e lieve it

1 5 was , January 20 1 7 .

16 Q. Were you ever paid by Prevezon or its

17 a ffili a t ed companies?

18 A. No. I was paid -- my services ,

19 interpreting services that I provided to Ms.

20 Veselni t skaya , we re paid t hrough BakerHos t e tl e r.

21 There was o ne payment that I described that she

22 made . And the rest of it happened through the

23 f oundat i on and also through Quinn Emanuel .

24 Q. So you said your contract was wi t h

25 BakerHostet l er , but --
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1 A. Yes .

2 Q. What is your r e lationship, if any , with

3 Prevezo n Ho l d i ngs?

4 A. I have no relationship with Prevezon

5 Holdings .

6 Q. Were you ever paid f or interpreter

7 services by the Human Ri ghts Acco untabi l ity Gl o ba l

8 Initiati ve ?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is your relationship with the Human

11 Ri ghts Glob a l Accountab ili ty I n iti a ti ve?

12 A. They took me on retainer, and t his last ed

13 appro ximate l y abo ut 4 o r 5 mo nths. And I was

1 4 off e r ed this posi ti on and this opportunity as both

15 an i nterpreter and potent i a ll y s o mebody who wou l d

16 manage their cultural exchange .

17 Q. What were t he d a t es o f th a t eng a gement?

18 A. Approximately fr om March 20 1 6 un til

1 9 August 201 6 . But , real l y , the active phase o f

20 their work commenced from mid - April to mid -Ju ne

21 20 1 6 .

22 Q. What were your responsibilities for that

23 engagemen t ?

24 A. I was int erp reting an awful lot o f

25 telepho n e cal l s , l etters , contracts , c o mmun i ques .

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1 I accompan i ed Ms . Vese l n i tskaya to Brussels and

2 to London.

3 Q. Were you ever --

4 BY MR . DAVIS :

5 Q. Sorry . Yo u men tioned t hat you were

6 considered for managing th e ir cult ural exchang e .

7 What does that enta i l?

8 A. I n the b eg inning it was descr i bed t o me

9 that t h i s was going to be found a ti on t hat wan t ed

1 0 to restart adoptions , and they wanted to do some

11 sor t o f a c ultur a l componen t, wh ich really wasn ' t

1 2 defined or described . It was a very brief a ff air .

13 But they wanted t o do s o meth i ng f o r the ch i ldren

1 4 th a t are already adop t ed here and bring some

15 Ru ss i an art i s t s here and br i ng some American

16 artists to Russia . That was the idea that was

17 proposed t o me .

18 BY MS . BRENNAN:

19 Q. Did yo u ever do any o f that?

20 A No.

21 Q. Were you ever pa i d for interpreter

22 services by Berryle Trading , Incorporated?

23 A No.

24 Q. Do you have any relationship with Be rryle

25 Trading , I ncorporated?
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1 A. That ' s the fi rst time I hear the name o f

2 this en tity.

3 Q. Were you ever pa id for interpreter

4 services by Denis Katsyv?

5 A. No .

6 Q. Pyotr Katsyv?

7 A. No .

8 Q. Were you ever paid for int erpreter

9 services by Aras Agalarov?

10 A. No .

11 Q. Have you ever received payments fr om

12 Fusion GPS?

13 A No .

14 Q. What int erac ti ons have you had with

15 Fu s i o n GPS?

16 A. I remember three or four meetings with

1 7 Mr . Glenn S imps on , wh ic h started approx imately in

1 8 the f a ll o f 2015. My understanding was that he

1 9 did research wo rk f or Prevezo n . I d o not remember

20 exactly whe t her he was always accompan i ed by h i s

21 assoc i a t e , but there was a certain person , and I

2 2 only remember her as Taylor . She is a young

23 woman . And the last ti me I saw Mr . S imps on was in

24 mid - June o f 2016. So al l in a ll, I have

25 interpreted maybe abo ut three o r f o ur meetings

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1 wi th Glenn Simps o n and Fusion GPS .

2 MR . KRANTZ : And just t o be clear , t o the

3 exten t t hat those meetings were a tt orney- cl i ent

4 privileged meetings , I just want to cauti on you to

5 not reveal t he subs t ance o f the communica ti ons .

6 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Yeah . Those meetings , a ll

7 o f my interactions o f Fus i o n GPS that I ever had

8 were all on the mat t er of U. S . v . Prevezon .

9 BY MS . BRENNAN:

10 Q. So we 'll talk about the June 9 , 2016 ,

11 mee ti ng in a bi t, b u t can you g i ve t he da t es o f

12 al l of t he other meetings , or approxima ti ons?

13 MR . KRANTZ : Yo u mean the meetings with Mr .

1 4 Simpson?

15 MS . BRENNAN: Correct .

16 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : I will try to do my best

17 remembering , bu t I might no t be exact . I met h i m

1 8 -- so I met Ms . Vese l ni t skaya and her team in

1 9 October 2015 . There was a series o f depo sitions

20 th a t t ook several days , and then t hey had a series

21 o f consul t a ti ons wi t h their l awye r s . So I must

22 have met Mr . Simpson for the first time sometime

23 a ft er October 20 , 2015.

24 The last mee ti ng that I recall with him

25 was in mid - June . I would say it was either June

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1 12th or 13th . If you need me to explain ho w I

2 r emembe r, we can go int o further details .

3 BY MR . FOSTER :

4 Q. Please go ahead .

5 A. Th at June , HRAGI F wan ted to screen a

6 movie made by Mr. Nekrasov , and I was no t able t o

7 be present at that screening . The reason I

8 r emembe r that, I had a prior commitment to work

9 for Random Ho u s e and PEN Amer i ca t o interpret for

1 0 Ms . Alexievich who came to introduce her b ook at

11 the New York Publ i c Libr a ry. So I believe Ms .

1 2 Veselni t skaya came on th e 7 t h or 8th of June. I

13 accompanied her to Wash i ngton , but I had t o come

1 4 back on Sunday of th a t week to be here for Monday

15 and Tuesd ay . So I was out of Washingt o n on tho se

16 2 days , and then I came back.

17 There was a dinner th a t Bake rHostetler

18 organized f or Ms. Veselni t skaya , and Mr . Glenn

19 Simpson was present there , and I be l ieve that was

20 the last ti me th a t I saw him . So it must have

21 been either Saturday or Sunday of that week .

22 Q. So can you walk us through each o f the

23 mee ti ngs t hat you recall having wit h Mr . Simpson

24 and tell us who was present a t each of t hose

25 meetings?
 25

1 A . That would require simony . I d o n't

2 r emembe r. Mostly wha t I rec al l of t he meetings ,

3 they did rese a rch for --

4 MR . KRANTZ : Again , to the extent that this

5 is at t orney- clien t privileged and you ' re ac t ing as

6 an i n t erp r e t e r, you really can 't r evea l th e

7 substance o f what transpired .

8 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Okay .

9 MR . FOSTER : We ll, my quest i o n wasn 't about

1 0 the substance but about who was present . I 'm

11 trying t o ascer t a i n --

12 MR . KRANTZ : I hear th e question was t hat ,

1 3 but I want t o caution the wi tness not to g o

14 somewhere else .

15 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : So a t the first meeting --

16 and , again , I might not be exact , but the people I

17 remember present we re Mr . Mark Simpson , Mr . John

1 8 Moscow o f BakerHostetler , probably some o t her

19 Baker Ho stet l er peop l e who worked on the case , Mr .

20 Akhme t shin , Mr . Glenn Simpson . And I'm bl ank ing

21 o ut o n the name o f Mr . Akhmetsh i n ' s partner . It

22 starts with L.

23 MR . DAVI S : Was it Ed Li eberman?

24 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Yes . Thank you . So Mr .

25 Ed Lieberman was there , and they came to ta l k to

 26

1 both Ms . Veselnitskaya and Mr . Katsyv . So that

2 was th a t group , app roxima tely, myself included.

3 That was the fir s t two meet i ngs .

4 Then Mr . Simpson -- and here my

5 recollect i on i s vague . He might have come at some

6 other time fr om Wash ington to see Ms.

7 Vesel nitskaya, again in the conjunction o f the

8 case . And it usually was with one of her lawyers

9 fr om BakerHostetler .

10 At dinner there was Mr . Cymrot . I might

11 have sa id " Simpson " be f ore . I t was Mr . Cymrot ,

12 Mark Cymrot . A fe w people fr om BakerHostestler

13 here in Washington . I also believe Mr . Lieberman

1 4 -- I'm not sure if Mr . Akhmetshin was a t that

1 5 meeting o r not . But it was a l a rge group o f

16 people , maybe 20 people .

17 BY MR . FOSTER :

18 Q. And just so the record's clear , that's at

19 dinner on what date?

20 A. Either 12th or the 13th. On th a t weekend

21 before I l eft for New York.

22 Q. 1 2th or 13th of?

23 A. June 2016 .

2 4 BY MS . BRENNAN:

25 Q. Okay . We 'l l talk some more about the

 27

1 June events later o n . Have you ever wo rked with

2 Ms . Veselnitskaya abroad?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was the context?

5 A. I was asked to accomp any her to Brussels

6 whe re Mr. Nekrasov attempted to premier his movie ,

7 and o nce I acco mpanied her t o Londo n where she

8 conferred with her lawyers th e r e . And I also went

9 to Lo ndon this spring to i nterpret the deposition

1 0 of a witness in the case . On those three -- oh ,

11 wa it a minute. Sorry . Fourth occasion wa s a trip

12 to Moscow with the Quinn Emanu e l t eam whe r e th ey

13 interviewed potential witnesses .

14 Q. Wha t is th e nature of your r e lationship

1 5 wit h Mr . Akhmetsh i n?

16 A. Professional .

17 Q. When did you fi rst mee t Mr . Akhmetsh i n?

18 A. Approximately at th e same ti me as Mr .

19 Simpson . I think it must have been that same

20 meeting , so sometimes end of October 201 6 .

21 MR . DAVIS: Sorry . Was th a t 20 1 6 o r 20 1 5?

22 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : '1 5 . Thank you f or

23 correct i ng me . '1 5 .

2 4 BY MS . BRENNAN:

25 Q. As far as yo u know , what is Mr .

 28

1 Akhmetshin ' s business?

2 A. I unders t a nd th a t he is some sor t of a

3 consu l tant and l o bbyist and works wi th Rus s i an

4 companies here in D. C .

5 Q. Have you wo rked wi t h Mr . Akhme t shin i n

6 his lobbying e f forts rela t ed t o the Magni t sky Act

7 and adopt i o n p o l icies?

8 A. No . There was one excep t ion . I helped

9 f a c i l i t a te a meet i ng between Mr . Akhmetsh i n and

1 0 Mr . Lieberman and the Satmar community when they

11 came t o New York . I accompan i ed t hem to t hat

1 2 mee t ing . But o t her than t hat , no .

13 MR . KRANTZ : What was th e community yo u j ust

1 4 said?

15 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Sa tmar .

16 BY MS . BRENNAN :

17 Q. What wa s the date o f th a t meet i ng?

18 A. July 20 1 6 .

19 Q. Can you d esc rib e th e nature o f that

20 mee t ing?

21 A. Mr . Lieberman and Mr . Akhmetsh i n c a me t o

22 see Rabbi Jacob Teite l baum, and Rabbi Teite l baum

23 and there wa s a lso Rabb i Moshe Landau , t hey a re

24 f riends of Mr . Ka t syv f rom his charity work in

25 Jewi sh char i t i es i n Ukrain e . And when Mr . Katsyv

 29

1 had this case , h e sought b o th th e i r spiritual and

2 l e gal guidance . And t here was a me e ting se t up , I

3 do no t know who by, but I was asked , since I

4 interpreted f o r Ms . Vese lnitskaya and Mr . Katsyv

5 wh en t hey met the rabbis be f ore , t o a ccompany Mr .

6 Lieb e rman and Mr . Akhme t shin and in t r oduce t hem to

7 th e rabbis .

8 Q. What was yo ur role in t hat mee t ing?

9 A. I sa i d , " Hel l o . This i s Mr . Akhmetshin ,

1 0 this is Lieberman . They ' re working at the

11 f oundat i on , and they ' re going to t a lk to yo u abou t

1 2 wha t t hey ' re t rying to accomplish ."

13 Q. Has Mr . Akhmetsh i n eve r said anyth i ng t o

1 4 yo u indicating or implying t hat he work e d with t he

15 Ru s si an Gov ernmen t ?

16 A. No .

17 Q. Ha s he ever s a i d an y t h i ng t o you

1 8 indicating or implying t hat he had worked f or

1 9 Russian intel l ig e nce?

20 A . No .

21 Q. Has he ever sa i d anyt h i ng t o you

22 indicating o r implying that he has contacts or

23 connect i ons wi th Russ i an Government o ffi c i a ls?

24 A . No .

25 Q. Do yo u have r easo n to b e l ieve that Mr .

 30

1 Akhmetshin has ties to the Russ i an Go vernment?

2 A. No .

3 Q. When d i d you f i rst mee t Ed Li eberman?

4 A. As I have stated previously, there was

5 this visi t, this meet i ng i n October o f 20 1 5 .

6 Tha t' s when I f irst met him .

7 Q. And as f ar as y o u know , what is Mr .

8 Lieberman ' s business?

9 A. I d o not kno w spec i f i cs . I be l ieve he

10 was a corporate lawyer involved in some business

11 in Russ i a , bu t I t h i nk he has ret i red s i nce then .

12 Bu t I am not intimately familiar with t he na t ure

13 o f his business act i v i t i es .

14 Q. What did you understand Mr . Lieberman ' s

15 role t o be i n the Prevezo n - Magn i tsky wo rk?

16 A. I don ' t know if it ' s privileged or not .

17 MR . KRANTZ : If your knowledge i s based on

1 8 privileged conversa t ions , then you can 't respond .

19 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : He did s o me work f o r the

20 Prevezon case .

21 BY MS . BRENNAN :

22 Q. What about Magnitsky work?

23 A. I do not know spec ifi cally wha t Mr .

24 Lieberman did f or Magni t sky work .

25 Q. What was your i nvo l vement with Mr .

 31

1 Li e b e rman in that work as f ar as yo u can te ll us?

2 MR . KRANTZ : Other t han b e ing a n

3 interpreter?

4 MS . BRENNAN: Cor rect.

5 BY MS . BRENNAN:

6 Q. So if it's li mited to interpreting or

7 anyth i ng b eyo nd that , pl eas e explain.

8 A. No. Ot her th a n t he meeting t hat I

9 de s cribed, e v erything e l s e was basica lly

1 0 interpreting and communications type o f work .

11 Q. Ok ay . I n yo u r interac ti ons with Ms .

12 Vese l ni t skaya , did she claim to be ac ti ng as an

13 attorney f o r Mr. Katsyv , Prevezon Holdings , both,

14 or other en titi es?

15 A. I d o not kno w ho w -- I do no t know the

16 precise answer t o this questi on . My belief was

17 th a t she ac t ed a s an a ttorney f or Mr . Katsyv a nd

1 8 that she r e present ed other i n t e r es ts o f th e Katsyv

19 f ami ly . I d o not kno w whether she was f o rmal l y an

20 a tt orney for Prevezon . I can 't t e ll you t hat .

21 Q. Are yo u f a mili a r wit h the film titled

22 "T he Magnitsky Act," purportedly by Andrei

23 Nekr a sov?

24 A. Yes .

25 Q. Do you kno w Mr. Nekrasov?

 32

1 A. I've met him .

2 Q. When did you meet him?

3 MR . KRANTZ : What was the name of the f il m?

4 MS . BRENNAN : " The Magnitsky Act . "

5 MR . KRANTZ : Th ank you .

6 MR. SAMOCHORNOV : I believe I met him at the

7 e nd o f 201 5 , in December , when he came t o New York

8 and brought the film with him .

9 BY MS . BRENNAN :

10 Q. Did you have any involvement in the

11 events related to screening the fil m?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you kno w Ike Kaveladze?

14 A. Yes . Yes , I know him .

15 Q. How d o you know him?

16 A. I met whom I later understood to be Ike

17 Kaveladze on June 9th, and then I met h i m a couple

18 of other times .

19 Q. Can yo u describe tho se meetings?

20 A. June 9th, Mr . Ik e Kaveladze joined Ms .

2 1 Veselnitskaya , Mr . Akhmetsh i n , and myse l f for

22 lunch and accompanied us to the meeting with

23 Donald Trump, Jr ., at the Trump Tower . The o t her

24 times, I thi nk that also could be privileged

25 because it concerned l ega l consultations that they

 33

1 had o n another matter , not on Prevezon matter , but

2 it was wi t h the lawyers. So I presume t hat it

3 falls under privilege. But there were two

4 additional meetings . I think the last one was in

5 January 2017.

6 Q. Without ge tti ng into the substance of

7 those meetings, can you tel l us who e l se attended

8 the mee ti ngs?

9 A. It was the attorney who , I saw o n

10 television , now represents Mr . Kaveladze .

11 MR . KRANTZ : If you don't remember his name ,

12 you don't remember his name .

13 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : I don't remember his name ,

1 4 but I saw him on t elevision , and I recognized him .

15 That' s the attorney that we saw two or three

16 times .

17 MR . FOSTER: And without getting int o the

1 8 substance of what the mee ti ngs were about , can you

19 j ust tell us what is the other matter?

20 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : It was still work around

21 the Magnitsky is s ue.

22 MR . FOSTER : Okay .

23 BY MS. BRENNAN:

24 Q. To the bes t of your knowledge, has Mr.

25 Kaveladze had any role i n the Preve z o n case or

 34

1 Magni tsky work?

2 A . Not t hat I can think of. No, he didn 't.

3 Q. So your meet i ng with h im and h i s attorney

4 was not related to Magnitsky work?

5 A . Oh, t he mee ting was mo re o f an

6 introduction, but I don't think he personally

7 himse lf did any work . As f ar -- again , as far as

8 I know , Mr . Kaveladze , as you 're aware , speaks

9 perfect Ru ss i an , s o my serv i ces were n o t needed ,

1 0 and I wasn ' t present for all the interacti ons

11 between Ms . Vese lnitsk aya and Mr . Kaveladze .

12 Q. Do you have r eason to believe Mr .

13 Kaveladze has t i es t o the Russian Government?

14 A . No.

15 Q. Do you kno w Ro b Go l dstone?

16 A No .

17 Q. Have you ever me t Rob Goldstone?

18 A . I me t an individual whom I later

1 9 u nderstood t o be Ro b Go ldstone from press reports

20 on June 9 , 201 6 .

21 Q. Do you have any under s tanding of h i s

22 work?

23 A No.

24 Q. Do you have any unders t anding o f whe t her

25 he has ties to the Russ i an Go vernment?

 35

1 A No .

2 Q. Do yo u have an und e rstanding of Gl en n

3 S i mp s on ' s role i n the Prevezon case?

4 A. No t a precise one , but some

5 underst a nding , yes .

6 MR . KRANTZ : Again , to t he ex t e nt tha t

7 that ' s bas e d on privi l eged conversations

8 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : I t is .

9 MR . KRANTZ : -- it shou l dn ' t be d i s clos ed .

10 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : It is based o n something

11 th a t I i n t erpre t ed be t ween Ms . Veseln i tsk aya a nd

1 2 Mr . Simpson and her a t torn eys .

13 BY MS . BRENNAN :

14 Q. Do yo u have an und e rstanding of his role

15 in the HRAGI l o bbying?

16 A. I ' m no t a ware that he had a r o le in the

17 HRAGI F lobbying .

18 Q. Do you know Ed Baumgar t ner?

19 A. Yes .

20 Q. How do yo u know him?

21 A. He a l so met I' m not exact l y 1 00

22 percent sure whether it was the same meeting that

23 I descr i bed th a t happened in l a t e October 2 01 5 .

24 But sometime around tha t t ime , he also came in

25 there , and h e a l so did some work f or the Pr evezon

 36

1 case . But I ' m not sure what was the precise

2 relationship between him and Mr . Simpson and how

3 it al l fit t o gether . I don ' t know .

4 Q. Okay . So you ' re not sure whether he was

5 wor king wi th Mister -- t hrough Mr . Simpson wi t h

6 Prevezon or direc t ly for Prevezon?

7 A. Correct . I d o not know that .

8 Q. Do you have any underst and ing of his role

9 in the HRAGI l o bbying?

10 A. I ' m not aware that he had a role in

11 HRAGI F lobbying .

12 Q. Okay . So we ' ll switch and talk abou t t he

13 June 9th meeting n ow . Who first contacted you

14 a bout a meeting between Ms . Veselnitskaya and

15 Donald Trump , Jr . ?

16 A. There was no such contact . I can explain

1 7 perhaps the nature o f my wo rk wi th Ms .

1 8 Veselni t skaya . So she had frequent visits t o the

19 United States , and I would b e contacted by h er

20 a ttorneys or herself directly , and she would ask

21 me whether y o u would be ava i lab l e o n such - and - s uch

22 dates .

23 I n June I wa s on retainer , so I made

24 myself available for t hat time , and she told me

25 that she was coming . And she told me to come and

 37

1 meet her at a certa i n time at her hotel . But the

2 o n ly t hing I knew about June 9th is that t here

3 wou ld be an appel l a t e -- a hear i ng at the

4 appellate court .

5 Q. Okay. So on June -- did you see Ms .

6 Veselni t skaya on June 8 t h?

7 A. I d o not remember . She must have c o me o n

8 the 7 t h or t he 8th , but I do no t have a diary , I

9 don't have records. Mo st likely, yes .

10 Q. Did you attend a dinner with her on June

11 8 t h?

12 A. I don 't remember, but could be, yes .

13 Q. Can yo u wa l k through the itinerary that

1 4 you had with her on June 9th? When did you mee t

15 her in the morn i ng?

16 A. I do not remember the precise time. It

1 7 mus t h a ve been sometime in t he morn ing . But I

18 remember t hat we took a car downtown to the

19 courtho use , and in the car she r e c e i ved a cal l

20 from Mr . Akhmetshin . And she asked me t o type a

2 1 message ask i ng t o add him to the r o ster o f peop l e

22 attending the meeting. And that , to the best of

23 my recollection, i s when I learned t hat Ms .

24 Veselni t skaya had a mee ti ng with Mr . Donald Trump,

25 Jr . It must have be e n b e f o r e 10 o ' clock , and I

 38

1 don't have a prec i se reco l lection . I ' m bas i ng i t

2 o n t he usu a l ti me the court s t a rts. So I mus t

3 have me t her a t 9 o ' c l ock , and we were i n a car

4 between 9 : 00 and 9 : 45 .

5 Aft er t he appellate co u r t hear i ng , there

6 was a conversation on the s t eps with her lawyers,

7 and then again someth i ng happened that I

8 completely forgot, bu t I was l a t er going t hrough

9 my t ax receipt s , and I f o und a pass fr om

1 0 BakerHostet ler dated June 6 -- June 9 , 2016 ,

11 marked 1: 27 p . m. So t here must have been a

1 2 mee ti ng a t Bake rHostetler wh ich I completely do

13 not remember .

14 Af t er t hat , t here was a -- we wen t to

15 luncheon a t the re s t auran t no t far from the Trump

16 Tower .

17 Q. You helped Ms . Veselni t skaya type a

1 8 message be f ore t he cour t hearing?

19 A. I did not have the exact time . I thought

20 it was e ith e r/or -- either going t here or going

21 back t here . I remember v i s ually t hat we were in

22 the car on FDR . But now it emerged that it was

23 9 : 24 , so i t k i nd o f fit s i n t o the timeline. I

24 initially did no t rememb e r t he precise ti me ,

25 whether it was before the court hearing or a f ter

 39

1 the court hearing, but s o metime in the mo rn i ng .

2 Q. Do you recall who from the Prevezon t eam

3 was at the hear i ng?

4 A. Not exactly . I think there were a lot of

5 BakerHostetler people. I think Mark Cymrot was

6 there; Mr . Mukasey , who argued for BakerHostetler.

7 Go sh . And th e r e must have be e n a t e am o f fiv e o r

8 six people , but I don 't remember exac tly.

9 Q. Do you remember if Glenn S impson wa s

10 there?

11 A. No, I do not remember him at th a t

12 hearing . He some ti mes -- I don't remember him

13 attending hearings . Just not something I

14 remember.

15 Q. At the hearing were yo u prov idi ng

16 interpreter services for Ms . Veselnitskaya?

17 A. At th a t point, in t he appellate court yo u

18 can't provide interpreting because it's very

1 9 stri ct and v e ry f orma l, so I was taking notes and

20 later expl a ined to her what happened .

21 Q. And did yo u at any point during the

22 hearing -- or did you discuss the meeting with

23 Donald Trump, Jr., or wit h anyone else on the

24 Prevezon t eam?

25 A. No .
 40

1 Q. Do you kno w if Ms . Veselnitskaya did?

2 A. Not t hrough me.

3 BY MR . FOSTER :

4 Q. Who was the message sent to you that you

5 typed f or Ms . Veselni tsk a y a ?

6 A. I do not know t hat . I was given a phone,

7 and actua ll y no w, f r o m press r e p o rts , that I

8 realize that it was an email , but I remembered it

9 as a text. I remember typing it, and when I saw

10 it in the press, this is definitely my wording .

11 This is definitely my work . I definitely

12 translated it. But my recollection is for some

13 reas o n i t was a text me ssage . But I r e me mber --

14 Q. So you typed it.

15 A. I remember typing it o n her phone . She

16 gave me a phone and dictated me what to type . But

1 7 who she sent it to precisely, I do no t know a nd

1 8 did not know at that ti me either.

19 BY MS. BRENNAN:

20 Q. At wha t point did she ask you to a tt end

21 the meeting wit h her?

22 A. She didn ' t specifically ask me . It was

23 a ssumed th a t I would be providing services t hat

24 day f or as long as she needed me.

25 Q. So wh e n yo u we nt to l unch , I 'm sorry if

 41

1 this i s repet i t i ve , but who was prese nt at l u nch?

2 A. I nitially, it was myself and Ms .

3 Veselni t ska ya. I believe then Mr . Akhmetsh i n

4 j o ined us, and the last to arrive was Mr .

5 Kaveladze .

6 Q. And t hen can you describe going fr om

7 lunch to the meet i ng?

8 MR . FOSTER : Before you do t hat , can you

9 jus t t e ll us e v erything you remember a bout what

1 0 the conversation was at lunch?

11 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Well , here I wo ul d ask yo u

12 to apprecia t e my role. I' m an interpreter, so if

13 I 'm not needed , I 'm not exact l y paying a l ot o f

1 4 a t t en t i on . So I spen t a lot of the lunch on my

1 5 phone . But the d i sc us s i o n was most l y about the

16 Magnitsky -- the circumstances around the

1 7 Magni t sky Act, as f ar as -- to t he best o f my

1 8 recollection.

19 I als o remember that at the l u nch eon

20 table, t here was a wh it e plastic fold e r, but I do

21 not remember what h appe ned t o it. I do not

22 remember it at the meeting . I do not remember it

23 passed on . But I remember t hat a t t he restaur an t

24 there was a f o l der t hat she intended to take to

25 the me eti ng wi th her . And a f ter l u nch, which was

 42

1 abo ut maybe a n ho ur a nd a half, maybe slightly

2 l onge r, we jus t got up and walked o ve r to Trump

3 Tower?

4 MR . DAVIS : Did you have any understanding

5 of what wa s in the folder ?

6 MR. SAMOCHORNOV : No . It wasn 't open , and

7 it wasn ' t speci fic a ll y talked about .

8 BY MS . BRENNAN:

9 Q. It wasn't opened during l unch?

10 A. No . Not that I recall .

11 Q. Were there a ny documents passed around a t

12 lu nch?

13 A No . It ' s j ust that -- then, aga in, you

14 asked me to give you some t hing t hat I learned from

15 o thers. I did no t have a recol l ecti o n personal l y

16 about any folder . But when I read Mr .

1 7 Akhmetshin's acco unt, I -- it's very funny. I' m

1 8 an interpreter , and I thought I would remember

1 9 more words. But I r e me mber th e imag e s. I j ust

20 remember t he image of a wh it e plastic folder on

21 the tab l e . But I do no t remember what happened

22 with it afterwards . So there was a folder .

23 BY MR . FOSTER :

24 Q. Was there discussion of the upcoming

25 me e ting during l unch , th e me e ting that was t o

 43

1 o ccur wi th Mr. Trump, Jr . ?

2 A. Not specifically about the agenda . It

3 was -- again , to the best o f my recollecti o n, it

4 was about the work that Ms . Veselnitskaya was

5 doing in reg a rds t o the Magni t sky Act a nd her case

6 and her travails related to those issues.

7 Q. So you don't recal l any specifi c

8 reference to Trump, Jr. a t t hat lunch?

9 A . No . It was known th at we 're going to

10 meet Trump, Jr . That was announced , and it was

11 known to me s ince I typed th a t message , a nd th a t's

12 when , as I recall, she told me t hat . But I don't

13 rememb e r any spec i a l i nstruct i o ns o r preparat i o ns

14 th a t were passed on a t t he meetings . At least

15 they were not g i ven to me.

16 BY MS . BRENNAN :

17 Q. Turning now t o the mee ti ng itself on June

18 9 , 20 1 6 , did anyone s t a t e that t he Russian

1 9 Government support e d Do nald Trump ' s Pr e sid e ntial

20 camp a ign?

21 A. No .

22 Q. Did anyone state that the Russian

23 Government opposed Hillary Clint on 's c a mpaign?

24 A No.

25 Q. Did anyo n e at the me et i ng o ff e r t o

 44

1 releas e hack e d emails to aid the Trump campaign?

2 A No .

3 Q. Did a nyo ne o ffer to manufacture or

4 distribute fake news to aid the Trump campaign?

5 A No .

6 Q. Did anyone offer to hack State voter

7 re g istrati o n systems t o o btain v o t e r data to aid

8 the Trump camp a ign?

9 A No .

10 Q. Was there any discussi o n of anything that

11 might re a son a bly be considered collusion between

12 the Trump campaign and the Russian Government?

13 A. No .

14 Q. Pl ea se list e v e ryone who was present for

15 any portion o f the June 9th meeting , e v en if they

16 did n o t attend the entire meeting .

17 A. Very well. It would be e a sier for me ,

18 if you do not mind , to describe what I remember

19 chronolog ically .

20 Q. Sure .

21 A. So we a rrived t o Trump Tower and went

22 thro ugh the main entrance on Fifth Avenue , and o n

23 the left there wa s an eleva tor door . And my

24 recollection is that ' s where we were met by Mister

25 -- whom I later understood t o be Mr . Go ldstone

 45

1 f r o m the publ i c i ty photographs . My impress i o n o f

2 him , t hat he was some sor t of a security agen t or

3 driver or some s o rt o f retainer, and he too k u s

4 upstairs . I again -- I d o no t remember which

5 fl oor it wa s, but it wa s in the middle o f the

6 building because we were above t he tre e tops but

7 not abo ve the top o f the n e i ghbor i ng bu i lding , s o

8 it must b e 20 , 30th floor. I do no t know wh i ch

9 fl o or it was . Bu t it was an office , and we wai t ed

1 0 in the l o bby. It has a glass wall separating the

11 lobby fr om t he con f erence room , and the con fere nce

12 room

13 MR . FOSTER : I th i nk the q uestion is : Who

1 4 was there?

15 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Oh , yeah , but we went into

16 the conference room . It was a rather large

17 con fere nce room, and we were a l most i mmedi a tel y

1 8 met with Mr . Donald Trump, Jr., and Mr . Mana f or t.

19 And what I remember meet i ng and what is my exact

20 r eco llection is th a t on this s id e of t he t a bl e ,

21 like I sit here tod ay , it was me, Ms .

2 2 Vese lnitskaya, and Mr . Akhmetshin. At the head of

23 the table over t here was Mr. Don a ld Trump , Jr .,

24 and Mr . Trump. I rememb e r t hat th e r e were people

25 across the r o om
 46

1 BY MS . BRENNAN :

2 Q. Sorry. You sa id Donald Trump , Jr. , and

3 who ?

4 A. And Mr . Manafort . So the table went

5 along the perimeter of the room , and on the other

6 side o f th e t ab l e th ere was Mr. Kushner , who came

7 later . I don ' t think he was part o f the initi a l

8 mee t- and - greet .

9 There were some other peop l e a l so wi th

10 him . Who they are I just do not remember exactly .

11 And Mr . Kushner did get up and leave a t abou t 5

12 or 6 minutes a ft er the beginning o f the meeting .

13 I don ' t remember anybody else comi ng or going

14 other than him .

15 A. Were a l l o f the at tendees i ntroduced?

16 A. I don ' t recall .

17 Q. Do you remember how Ms . Veseln itsk aya was

18 introduced?

19 A. No , I d o not .

20 Q. Not whether she introduced herself or if

21 someone e l se i ntroduced her?

22 A. I remember there was a meet-and-greet and

23 exchange o f business cards . But the precise

24 wording , I unfortunately do not remember.

25 Q. Do you remember if she said what type o f

 47

1 business she was in o r f o r whom she worked?

2 A. I don ' t remember her saying anything like

3 that.

4 Q. Did she or anyone else claim that she was

5 working for the Russian Government?

6 A No .

7 Q. Did it appear that anyone else in the

8 meeting from the Trump campaign had previously

9 interacted with Ms . Veselnitskaya?

10 A. To the best that I can ascertain , no .

11 Q. Did Ms . Veselnitskaya spe a k exclusively

12 through you as her interpreter?

13 A. Ye s . To th e e xtent that sh e spo k e at

14 all .

15 Q. Ho w was Rinat Akhmetshin introduced?

16 A. I don ' t remember .

17 Q. Do you remember whether he said what type

18 of business he was in or for whom he worked?

19 A. I d o n ' t r e me mber that .

20 Q. Do you remember if he or a nyone else

21 c l a i med that he wa s working for the Ru s sian

22 Go vernment?

23 A. I c a n definitively say th a t nobody a t the

24 meeting said that they worked for the Russian

25 Government .
 48

1 Q. Did i t appear that anyone else in the

2 mee ti ng from t he Trump campaign had ever

3 previously i nteracted wit h Mr . Akhmetsh i n?

4 A. Not to me, but I can't be sure . I d on ' t

5 know .

6 Q. Do you have any reason to believe t hat he

7 and Mr . Mana f ort knew each other?

8 A No.

9 Q. Do you rec a ll what Mr . Akhme t sh in wore to

10 the meeting?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you recall how I ke Kaveladze was

13 introduced?

14 A . No.

15 Q. Whether he sa id what type of bu s i ness he

16 was in or who he worked f or?

17 A. No, I don 't reme mber.

18 Q. Or whe t her he had ever interacted wi t h

1 9 anyone from the Trump campa i gn?

20 A. I do not r emembe r t he prec is e wordag e of

21 the intr od ucti ons . I jus t can 't sit here and

22 invent things . But I had an impressi on that Mr .

23 Kaveladze had some earl ier i n ter ac tions wit h at

24 least Mr . Golds to ne because in my , again ,

25 understanding , i t was he who made the connect i o n.

 49

1 That's how I understood the proceedings . But I

2 do no t -- I canno t t ell you exactly and precisely

3 what was said at that time.

4 MR . FOSTER : Sorry . Who is the " he " in that

5 sen te nce?

6 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Mr . Kaveladze .

7 MR . FOSTER : Mr. Kave l adze made the

8 connection between who and

9 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : My impression -- and ,

10 again , this is somebody who is n o t told everything

11 ex ac tly. My i mpression th a t it was Mr . Kaveladze

12 who helped arrange t he meeting and , when he

13 appeared at lunch , h e lped to take us there . But I

14 have no specific wordag e or proof to offer you.

15 It was just how I interpreted the s itu a ti on .

16 MR . KRANTZ : Just your impressi on .

17 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : It's my impression, yes .

1 8 When I first read this accoun t, I was very

1 9 surpr i sed o f Mr. Goldstone , and it didn ' t eve n

20 occur to me th a t he ' s Bri ti sh . I thought he was ,

21 like, you know , he ac t ed more like s omebody fr om

22 Queens .

23 BY MS . BRENNAN:

24 Q. Can you -- you said --

25 MR . KRANTZ : I' m from Qu eens . I take great

 50

1 o ffens e .

2 [L a ught e r.]

3 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : But my po i nt i s that I

4 thought that it was somebody who is a personal

5 helper or driver or an assistan t. To me -- and,

6 again , everybody has limits in t heir judgment of

7 character , but i t did not o ccur to me that he was

8 the publicist for a pop s t a r. It was not the

9 impres s i o n th a t I got .

1 0 BY MS . BRENNAN :

11 Q. Can you explain -- and you said t hat par t

12 of t he reason you thought Mr . Kaveladze had

1 3 o rgan ized the meeting is because he bro ught you to

1 4 mee t Mr . Goldstone . Bu t can you exp lain why you

15 tho ught that a littl e b it more?

16 A. First o f all , he appeared at luncheon ,

17 and he was t he person who k i nd o f ushered us and

1 8 organized us and said , "Let' s go . We should no t

1 9 be l ate ." So I assumed that he had some s o rt o f

20 connection t o the a rrangement.

21 Q. At the lunch d i d he seem to know about

22 the Magnitsky Act or the Prevezon work?

23 A. No, no t much. I think he heard some t h i ng

24 about it before, but he was not f amiliar abou t t he

25 detai l s , and that , as I recal l, was the

 51

1 conversati o n that Ms . Vesel nitskaya and Mr .

2 Akhmetshin had with him .

3 BY MR . FOSTER :

4 Q. Do you recall any o f the discussion at

5 the lunch abo ut providing negat i ve i nformat i on

6 about Hillary Clinton?

7 A . No .

8 Q. Or any plan to do that a t th e upcoming

9 meeting?

10 A. No , sir . No . Her name did not come up

11 at lunch, not th a t I rec a ll.

12 BY MS . BRENNAN:

13 Q. At the meeting did Mr . Goldst o n e describe

1 4 the nature of his business or who he work ed for?

15 A. I was trying to describe ear lier who I

16 remembered at the meeting , and I know fr om press

17 repor t s th a t Mr . Goldstone and Mr . Kaveladze we re

18 th e re. I personally have no recollection of them

19 being at the meeting or saying anything , s o I

20 cannot testify to whether they said anything at

21 a ll.

22 Q. Can you recount for us in as much detail

23 as you remember wha t happened a t t he mee ting?

24 A. Yeah . So after the round of

25 introducti o ns, which occurred o n this side of the

 52

1 tabl e , we were all s e ated , and Ms . Ve s e lnitskaya

2 through me e xplained that she has informa tion th a t

3 s he o btained thr o ugh her research o n the Magn i tsky

4 case abo ut the American hedge fund firm Ziff

5 Brothers who , a ccording to her , were i mpl i cated in

6 financial malfeasance in both Russia and the

7 Unit e d States for nonpayment of taxes . And th e n

8 she said that they were contributors -- a nd here I

9 don 't remember -- to either DNC o r Hillary Cl i nt o n

10 campaign . So that took about 3 minutes , 4

11 mi nutes , a ft er wh i ch Mr . Ma n a fort said , well , th a t

12 is not interesting, people give money to

13 campaigns , different campaigns all the time .

1 4 Again , this is not verbatim . This is my

15 remembrance o f what happened . And then he kind o f

16 withdrew from the meeting , and he sat with his

17 telephone k i nd o f turned h a lfwa y a way fr om us.

18 And then it was Mr . Akhmetshin who spoke

19 abo ut HRAGI and th e Magnitsky Act and how that

20 became a casus belli , you know , sort of a reason

2 1 why the first step that led to deteriorat i o n of

22 the relationship and that the relationship could

23 be rep a i red . I don't remember t he precise t h i ng ,

24 again , about what he said , but the general kind of

25 gist of th e conve rsati o n. And h e spo k e --

 53

1 BY MR . FOSTER :

2 Q. I'm sorry . What relationship?

3 A. Huh?

4 Q. What relationship?

5 A. The Russo - Amer i can relat i onship .

6 Q. Okay . So he was -- was he purporting t o

7 sp e ak f or th e Russian perspective in the

8 relationship?

9 A . No . No , no , no , no , no . But he s aid --

10 again , I don ' t remember the precise words of what

11 he s a id, bu t what the f oundat i on wa s t rying to do

12 is t o basically seek t he congressional review of

13 th e c i rcumstances o f Mr . Magn i tsky ' s arr e st and

14 imprisonment. And t hat ' s wh a t Mr . Akhmetshin

1 5 brief l y talked about and i n very broad terms. But

16 I don ' t think he was -- not to my recollection he

17 s t a t ed any kind o f government proposi ti on or

18 objec ti ve . And I don't remember any ques ti ons

1 9 being asked . I can tel l y o u that th e me e ting

20 lasted abou t 20 minutes , and t he reason I remember

21 that i s because I loo ked at my watch when we were

2 2 waiting downstairs at the bar, and it was 2 5

23 mi nutes pas t. And Mr . Don a ld Trump, Jr . --

24 Q. I' m sorry . I interrupted your narra ti ve .

25 I apolog iz e . Yo u we r e tel l ing us what you recal l

 54

1 abo ut Mr . Akhmetshin saying .

2 A. Yes .

3 Q. How l o ng d i d he speak? And what e l s e do

4 y ou remember abou t what he said?

5 A. He mus t have spoken f or 1 0 , 1 2 , maybe 1 5

6 minutes , some t hing like tha t, because , again , I

7 don ' t have the prec i se time log f or you , but if we

8 a rrive promptly a nd the mee ti ng s t a rt e d on t ime ,

9 it t akes t ime to ge t t o the e l eva t o r on 20 -

10 something flo o r . It takes time to get there and

11 be seated a t t he bar . The meet i ng , 1 8 minu t es , 2 0

1 2 minutes . So I remember Ms . Veselni t skaya is doing

13 her intro f or 3 o r 4 . One r ema rk that I r eca l l

14 from Mr . Manafort , t he rest I recall is Mr .

1 5 Akhme t sh in basica l ly t a l k i ng abou t his work for

16 the f ou ndation . And at the end Mr . Trump said

17 something a long the l i nes and t h i s is , a g a i n ,

18 not verba t im , but he said -- whether i f or when , I

1 9 don ' t remember , but he said that if my father

20 becomes President , we will revisi t t he issue . And

21 tha t was t he end of i t.

22 BY MS . BRENNAN :

23 Q. Did anyone men t ion Bi ll Browder?

24 A. At the mee t ing -- t hey mus t have , bu t I

25 don ' t exac t l y pr ec is e l y remember . I' m s o rry ,

 55

1 ma ' am . I can ' t g ive y o u the exact reco llection,

2 but logically, if they spoke about Ziff Brothers ,

3 Ziff Brothers were i nvestors i n Mr . Browder , s o

4 I ' m sorry to o ffer you a l ogica l deduction . They

5 must h a ve . But I just don 't remember the

6 specifics .

7 Q. Do you remember any specific discussi o n

8 about the Russian ba n on U.S. adop tion o f Russian

9 chi l dren?

10 A. That was what was the general topic that

11 Mr . Akhmetshin t a lked a bout .

12 Q. Did anyone ask that Donald Trump, Sr .,

13 take any action regarding th e Magnitsky Act o r the

14 Global Magnitsky Act if elected?

15 A No .

16 Q. Did anyone mention the Justice

17 Department ' s l awsuit aga inst Prevezon Holdings?

18 A No. Not that I r eca ll.

19 Q. No thing about the cas e that y o u r e call?

20 A. I don 't rec al l a discussion about th e

21 case , no .

22 Q. Did anyone mention support of the DNC or

23 RNC?

24 A. Can you --

25 MR . KRANTZ : I'm s o rry . When you say

 56

1 " support " ?

2 BY MS . BRENNAN :

3 Q. Suppor t of the Democra t ic Na t ional

4 Committee or the

5 A. Whose suppor t ? I' m sorry . I' m just --

6 Q. Was t here any discussion of t he DNC or

7 RNC?

8 A No .

9 Q. Okay .

10 A. Well , the only -- as I said , the only

11 thing th a t I do not remember exac t ly i s wh ere the

12 alleged Zi f f contribu t ion was , whether it was to

13 DNC o r dir ec t l y to the campaign . So i n that

14 con t ext , DNC migh t have men t ioned migh t have

1 5 been ment i o ned .

16 Q. What , if anything , did Ms . Veselnitskaya

17 or her associates o ff er the Trump camp a i gn?

18 MR . KRANTZ : I' m sorry . Beyond the

1 9 statement that h e a l ready testified to? I' m

20 sorry . I' m j us t no t following t hat question ,

21 o ffer --

22 BY MS . BRENNAN :

23 Q. Did t hey o ff er an y t h i ng t o the Trump

24 campaign? Did t hey of f er reins t a t ement of U. S .

25 adopt i o ns o f Russ i an ch i ldren if the Magn i tsky Act

 57

1 was repealed or anything else?

2 A. I do not remember any specific offer of

3 anyth i ng be i ng made at the meet i ng or later.

4 Q. Were there any requests made of the

5 campa i gn?

6 A No.

7 MR . FOSTER : You said you didn ' t remember a

8 specific offer . Do you remember a general offer?

9 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : There was no genera l

10 offer .

11 MS . BRENNAN : We are at our time, so we 'll

12 suspend and we 'll come back to t his .

13 MR . FOSTER : Off the record at 1:34.

14 [ Recess a t 1: 34 p . m. t o 1:45 p . m.J

15 MS . CLAFLIN: We are back on 1: 45 .

16 EXAMINATI ON BY COUNSEL FOR THE MINORITY

17 BY MS . CLAFL IN:

18 Q. Mr . Samochornov , I am Molly Cla fli n wi t h

19 Senator Feinstei n ' s staf f, and I want to thank you

20 aga in for coming in t oday and making t he tri p

2 1 down . I know it's a bit of a journey, and it

22 sounds like a tumultuous day .

23 I' m go i ng t o a pologi ze . We 're going to

24 have t o go back and fill a couple holes , so we may

25 have to go back in time a b i t here as we start .

 58

1 Just to b e gin, you said that you were

2 contracted through an a gency to do some

3 interpretati o n f o r Kazakhstan . You s aid y o u had

4 never d o ne any interpreting directly for the

5 Russian Go vernment , but did you ever do it for

6 other foreign g o vernments through agencies?

7 A. No . Kazakhstan was the only e xampl e that

8 comes to mind . With Secre tary Clinton , I was

9 contacted by the It a lian mis s i o n in New York, but

1 0 mo st o f my work is done thro ugh an agency , and I

11 never worked for the Russi a n Government or any

12 other g o vernment in any capacity.

13 Q. Including thro ugh wo rk that is contract e d

14 through a gencies?

15 A. I never wo rked for the Ru s si a n

16 Go vernment , n o .

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Through agencies .

19 Q. Yo u said before that yo u were r e f e rred to

20 Ms. Ve s e lnitsk a y a through a noth e r int e rpr e t e r.

21 Were y o u t o l d anything a bout her background o r

22 abo ut her from that person?

23 A. No. I wa s told that it is a deposition

24 prep , in our lingo, and interpreters do quite a

25 bit o f c o urt and l e gal wo rk , s o I was just t o ld

 59

1 that i t ' s a c i v i l l i t i gat i o n , that i t invo lve d

2 finances , a nd th a t t hey a re looking for

3 interpreter for p a r t icu l ar da t es .

4 Q. And in y o ur work with her , as you ' ve

5 spoken t o her and got to know her , I assume you ' ve

6 learned some more about her background . Do you

7 kno w if she ' s eve r d o n e any work f o r Aras o r Emi n

8 Ag a l a rov?

9 A. I read i t recent l y in t he newspape r

10 articles . In my interactions with her , she did

11 not men t ion these names , and she did no t t a lk

12 about tha t part of her work .

13 Q. Did she ever mention Yury Chaika?

14 A. She mentioned h i m as the prosecu t or

15 general , yes .

16 Q. But not as someone she ' d worked with?

17 A. No t spec ifi cally . Not th a t I c an rec a ll .

18 Q. Do you know anything about her work for

1 9 th e Russian Federal Securi ty Se rvi ce , o r FSB?

20 A . No .

21 Q. And I know you ' ve done s ome work wi th her

22 on the Prevezon matter . Are there any other

23 projects t hat you ' ve done f or her?

24 A. I was involved in a small case tha t she

25 a l so had i n New York . I t concerns Sberbank , so I

 60

1 d i d two o r three sess i o n s o f wo rk i ng on the

2 Sbe r bank case . It was ear l ier t his year , i n t he

3 spr i ng of this year .

4 Q. So it was after you had done the initial

5 Prevezon work wi th her?

6 A. The Prevezon case se t tled in May 20 1 7 , so

7 it was c o ncurrent wi th the Prevezon case .

8 Q. Okay . And any o t her -- and t hat was

9 trans l a t ion services again?

10 A. Yes . Interpretation services .

11 Transla t ion is when you wri t e . I nterpret i ng i s

1 2 when you speak .

13 Q. Thank yo u . That ' s help f ul .

14 A. Sorry for t he correc ti on .

15 [Laughter . J

16 Q. Very helpful . Go ing back quickly , what

1 7 was the con t ext in wh i ch she ment i oned Yury

18 Chaika? Do you recall?

19 A. No t specifi cal l y . And , again , it wo uld

20 be d i fficul t t o describe . I t was my unders t anding

21 tha t she had s o me sor t of a connect i o n at the

22 Office of Prosecutor General , and , rather , not she

23 b u t the older Mr . Katsyv . Bu t, aga i n , I can 't

24 give you t he speci f ic exact quo t e , unfortunately .

25 I d o n ' t remember that .

 61

1 Q. Okay. Have yo u ever done any wo rk f or

2 Mr . Chaika?

3 A. No .

4 Q. Have you ever done any work for Emin

5 Agalarov?

6 A No.

7 Q. The Crocus Gro up?

8 A No.

9 Q. Ho w abo ut I ke Kave l adze?

10 A No .

11 Q. Rob Goldstone?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Ho w about anyo n e f r o m the Trump campaign?

14 A No.

15 Q. Or the Trump Organ i zat i o n?

16 A. No . Can I say something?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. When you say " Trump campaign , " I do no t

1 9 kno w everyo n e o n the Trump campaign .

20 Q. Of course .

21 A. I' ve never done any po liti ca l wo rk, but I

2 2 might have done an assignment f or a company where

23 people we re involved. So I wa n t t o make t hat

24 cavea t, that 1 0 years ago I might have wo rked a t

25 Goldman Sachs at the same time that somebody was

 62

1 there , s o something like that --

2 MR . KRANTZ: I think it's implicit in the

3 quest i on that you knew t o be ass o ciated with the

4 Trump campaign.

5 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : No.

6 MS. CLAFL IN: Yes . I will clarify.

7 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Okay . Thank yo u .

8 BY MS . CLAFLIN:

9 Q. And before June 20 1 6 , had you e v er

1 0 communicated with Do nald Trump?

11 A No.

12 Q. Or Donald Trump , Jr.?

13 A. No .

14 Q. Paul Mana fort?

15 A. No .

16 Q. Jared Kushner?

17 A No.

18 Q. I vanka Trump?

19 A No .

20 Q. Or anyone that you knew to b e from the

21 Trump Organ i zat i on?

22 A . No .

23 Q. Okay. Have you ever performed any

24 translation or int e rpret e r work whe re anyone fr om

25 the Trump Organizati o n was present , if no t yo ur

 63

1 c l ient , that yo u knew?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I' m g o i ng t o jump back . You mentioned

4 that you were at a June 8th dinner .

5 A. I sa id th a t I don 't remember whe t her

6 th e re was a dinn e r or not , bu t Ms . Veselnitskaya

7 typ i cal l y inc l uded i nterpreters that wo rked wi th

8 her in dinners , and she typically f ed us. So wha t

9 I sa id i s that I d o n 't remember whe t her there was

1 0 a dinner , but if there was , there is a very good

11 chance t hat I wa s there.

12 Q. I t hough t you said th e re was a dinn e r in

13 ear l y June . Yo u said that there was a n umber o f

1 4 people t here , including Mark Cymrot .

15 A. Th a t was after June 9th meet i ng .

16 Q. After, okay .

17 A. Th at weekend , on e it her 1 2 t h or 1 3 t h .

18 Q. All right. Excuse me t hen . The 1 2th or

1 9 13th . So at that d i nner , can you walk us through

20 a littl e more who else you t hink migh t have b een

21 there. You mentioned Ms . Veselni t skaya . You

2 2 mentioned Mr . Cymrot . Do you recall anyone else

23 f or s u re?

24 A. I defini t ely recall Mr . Simpson . I t hink

25 Mr . Cymro t ' s wife was there . I think Mr .

 64

1 Simpson ' s companion -- I do not know whether he is

2 marr i ed , bu t a l ady was present . I r emembe r it

3 being a r a ther l arge group of people .

4 Q. Okay .

5 A. I wo ul d say maybe be t ween 1 6 and 20

6 people .

7 Q. Okay . As far as you know , does Ms .

8 Veselni t skaya only speak Russian? She does not

9 speak English. Let me rephrase it.

10 A. No . She has very limited ability in

11 English , and at some point t h i ngs th a t she knows ,

12 like t he story abou t Magnitsky , she asks people

13 not to i nterpret f or her . So she does have some

14 und e rstanding, and when we we re a t t he appellate

15 court , my bes t guesst ima te t hat in spoken English

16 on topics that she ' s familiar with , she gets 20

1 7 percent .

18 Q. Okay .

19 A. But I n ever heard her be i ng ab l e to order

20 or communicate even in eve ryday languag e .

21 Q. So a t some t h i ng li ke the d i nner on the

22 12th or 13th , did you facilitate any conversations

23 between her and the o t her dinner gues t s?

24 A. I don 't r emembe r. I mus t have , bu t I --

25 I remember that there was a d i nner . I remember

 65

1 that they talked about the mo vie that was abo ut to

2 be shown , I believe nex t Monday . But I don ' t

3 remember the spec i f i cs of tha t dinner .

4 Q. Okay . I think we can skip forward now

5 back t o the June 9th meet i ng , and , again ,

6 apologies f or skipping around . The joy of our

7 set - up we have here .

8 A . Glad to help .

9 Q. I just wan t t o c l arify a few things abou t

10 your involvement in the June 9th meeting . I think

11 you said t hat you were on retainer i n June o f

12 20 1 6 .

13 A . That is correct .

14 Q. And so you had planned on in t erpre t ing

15 for her for the day .

16 A . Yes .

17 Q. And yo u went to co u r t and t hen ended up

18 going to t his mee t ing with her . I s tha t more or

19 less

20 A . Yes .

21 Q. Okay . So i t sounds l ike you d i dn 't ge t a

22 specific call or email about this meeting . Is

23 tha t correc t ?

24 A . Yes .

25 MS . CLAFLIN : Okay . Document 1. Th i s

 66

1 document I'd lik e to b e mark e d Exhibit No . 1.

2 [S amochornov Exhibit 1 was marked for

3 ide n tific a ti on .]

4 BY MS . CLAFLIN :

5 Q. So this is an email be t we en Rob Goldstone

6 and Natalia Veselni t skaya that was prov ided to t he

7 Committee by the Trump Organization. She writes

8 th a t, " Mr . Akhmetshin has signed an NDA with us,

9 as did Mr . Samoc hornov ." Who is "us"?

10 MR . KRANTZ : What ' s his understanding?

11 MS . CLAFLIN: Wha t i s your unders t anding f or

12 this, yeah .

13 MR . KRANTZ : Tak e your time and read i t .

14 It' s no t his ema ils. You jus t wan t him to read it

15 and g i v e y o u his best underst and ing o f who "us"

16 is?

17 MS . CLAFLIN: Exactly .

18 [P ause . J

19 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : My b est guess , i t would be

20 with "us " meaning both BakerHos t e tl e r and HRAGIF.

21 BY MS . CLAFLIN:

22 Q. Okay . And who did you believe you were

23 wor king f or a t t h i s mee ti ng?

24 A. At that meeting I was paid by HRAGIF or

25 HRAGI.
 67

1 Q. Okay . So that ' s who you invo ic e d f o r the

2 mee ti ng?

3 A. Yes .

4 Q. Okay .

5 MR . KRANTZ : He wa s on re t a i ner .

6 MS . CLAFL IN: Right . I' m sorry . Yes .

7 BY MS . CLAFLIN :

8 Q. I s th i s t he messag e t hat y o u typ e d on Ms .

9 Veselni t s kaya ' s pho ne?

10 A. Yes .

11 Q. Okay, so this i s wha t we were re f err i ng

12 to ear l ier .

13 A. Co rrect .

14 Q. And now going on to t he lunch , I b e lieve

15 you sa id y o u went to l unch on June 9th as p a r t of

16 the meeting . Where was that lunch? Do you

l7 remember?

18 A. Yes . Can I make one more commen t --

19 Q. Yes .

20 A. -- a b o ut the NDA? The NDA was signed by

21 me on October 20 1 5 . I did n o t know anyt h i ng a bou t

22 Mr . Akhmetshin ' s NDA, but that was a general NDA,

23 and f or me as an i n t erpre t er , I j u s t wan t to s ay

24 tha t I have NDAs in 99 p e rcen t o f my contracts .

25 Q. So th e r e was not an NDA that was specific

 68

1 to the meeting?

2 A. It was not an NDA that was specifically

3 requested for the meeting, no .

4 Q. Just part o f the retainer .

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. Okay . Thank you . I appreciate t hat .

7 A. Sorry . You asked the name o f the

8 r es t a urant and --

9 Q. If you rec a ll.

10 A. The restaurant was called Nello , and it

11 was a f avor it e o f Ms . Veselni t skaya ' s .

12 Q. And you also men ti oned a t t he lunch t hat

13 there was a white fold er that you bel i eved she was

1 4 planning t o tak e with her?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What gave you the impressi on that she was

1 7 plann i ng t o take i t wit h her t o the mee ti ng?

18 A. It was rath e r my recollection, because

19 when I read the press reports , I i n i t i ally did not

20 r emembe r any documents brough t t o the mee ti ng .

21 But when I re ad Mr . Akhmetshin ' s repo rt and what

22 he said to the press , I had just a visual

23 recollect i on i t was a whi t e plast i c f older t hat

24 she kep t wi t h her , and I remember it being at

25 lunch . And I remember that she said that she was

 69

1 tak i ng i t to the meet i ng .

2 Q. Bu t you don 't rememb e r any documen t s

3 being d i sc us s ed specifically a t lunch?

4 A. No . I don ' t remember it being opened ,

5 and I can 't o ff er you any det a ils on t hat .

6 Q. Okay . No , that's fin e .

7 BY MR . PRI VOR :

8 Q. Wha t specifically do you r eca ll her

9 sayi ng t hat mad e you t h i nk she was t ak ing it wi t h

1 0 her?

11 A. Sir , I am a fr a id I' m not ab le t o g i ve yo u

1 2 precise language. I unders t ood -- it is rather my

13 recol l ect i o n and my u nderstanding rather than what

1 4 she direc tl y said th a t it was materials th a t she

1 5 prepared a bout t he Magn its ky Ac t t o t ak e and t o

16 l eave with Mr . Trump, Do nald Trump, Jr .

17 Q. Did yo u ever see wha t was i nside the

18 f o ld e r?

19 A. I did no t .

20 Q. Do you have any id ea whe t her those

2 1 documen t s were i n English o r Russ i an?

22 A. I do not . I would assume again ,

23 th a t' s my g u ess -- t hat they wo ul d be in English

24 s i n c e th ey we r e meant t o b e left with th e -- with

25 Mr . Donald Trump , Jr . But I have no direct

 70

1 knowledge o f i t .

2 BY MS . CLAFLIN :

3 Q. So you don 't rec a ll seeing any documents

4 that were prepared for this meeting or possibly

5 distributed a t t he mee ting?

6 A No.

7 Q. Okay .

8 A. I don 't even I cannot even t estify t o

9 whether t h is was l eft a t the meet i ng or not . I

10 don ' t know .

11 Q. And i t sounds like you didn't yoursel f do

1 2 much t o prepare f or th e mee ti ng because it sounds

13 l i ke you didn ' t rea l ly know what was happen i ng?

14 A. Wha t do you mean " prepare " ?

15 Q. Whether i t ' s preparing documents o r d o i ng

16 research .

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you communicate with anyone abou t t he

19 meeting be f ore i t too k place other than Ms .

20 Veselni t skaya?

21 A No .

22 BY MS . SAWYER :

23 Q. Before we move on , can I jus t ask another

24 question abou t t he lunch? You we r e asked a numbe r

25 o f q uestions about what top i cs did c o me up . Do

 71

1 you recal l any discussion at the l unch about the

2 Ziff Brothers?

3 A. No .

4 Q. Do you recall any discussion at the lunch

5 about tax improprieties and donations to t he DNC?

6 A. I don 't t hink it's more -- wha t I recall

7 and f org i ve me , i t ' s a l so go i ng to be genera l

8 i n charac t er . I rec a ll Ms . Veseln it skaya talking

9 to Mr . Kave l adze pr imar il y and Mr . Akhmetsh i n

1 0 about the research that she did on Mr . Browder and

11 Mr . Magni t sky . And so it was Mr . Browder ' s

12 fi nancial improprieties that were discussed, as

13 f ar as I can reca l l . But as I have described ,

1 4 since it was in Russ i an , I d i dn 't r ea lly need to

1 5 par ti cipa t e . I maybe t a lked wi th them f o r 1 4 , 1 5

16 minutes and then excused myself and just , you

17 know , did some o f the phone work t o catch up with

1 8 my messages . So I wasn 't exactly th e re present

19 f or the e ntire l u nch i n terms o f paying attention .

20 Q. Do you r eca ll hearing anyth i ng th a t Ms .

2 1 Veselni t skaya opened the meet i ng wi th d i sc us s ed

22 during the lunch that occ urred before the meeting?

23 A. No. And I can tell yo u my react i on , th a t

24 I was surprised that she was bri ng ing it up . I

25 heard her bring it up aga i n , and I was a l itt l e

 72

1 pers o na l ly surprised that she would d i scuss that .

2 MR . KRANTZ : The ques ti on was j us t what was

3 said .

4 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Sorry . I understand ,

5 yeah .

6 BY MS . SAWYER :

7 Q. When you say you heard her bring it up

8 again , what were you referring t o?

9 A. She discussed t hat mat t er severa l t imes

10 before .

11 Q. Be f ore the mee t ing on June 9t h?

12 A. Yes , ma ' am .

13 Q. So this was no t the first time you had

14 heard her discuss i t ?

15 A. Yes , ma ' am .

16 Q. And what was the context of those other

17 d i scuss i ons?

18 A. She t alked about i t wi t h her a t torneys in

1 9 the Prevez o n case be f ore the meet i ng , and then she

20 talked abou t it with her public relations person

21 after the mee t ing .

22 Q. Okay . So when did the --

23 MR . KRANTZ : Those are pr i v i leged

24 conversations?

25 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : I think that the

 73

1 attorneys ' were . The pub l ic re l ations ', I d o n't

2 think so . It was

3 MR . KRANTZ : We ll, it depends on if the

4 public relations firm is hired to assist the

5 lawye rs in t he represent a ti on , so I don't know t he

6 answer t o the question . It may be privileged ; it

7 may not . It depends on the specific

8 circums t ances .

9 BY MS . SAWYER :

10 Q. So when did the conversation with her

11 a tt orneys take place on this t opic?

12 A. It occurred several ti mes t hroughout the

1 3 wi nter and spring 2015 t o 2016 . I can ' t put

1 4 current issues with specific da t es .

15 Q. And t hen when did t he conversa ti on wit h

16 the public relations people take place?

17 A. I t mus t have been be t ween June 1 0 th and

18 June 1 3 t h .

19 Q. And why i s it that you recal l that time

20 span?

21 A. As I have described , I had a par ti cu l ar

22 circumstance where I had a previous commitment to

23 Random House and PEN Amer i ca and New York Li brary

24 to go and wo rk for Ms . Alexievich . And I took a

25 tra i n at the end o f late ho urs on Sunday t o start

 74

1 worki n g o n Mo nday in New Yo rk . And that ' s why --

2 and I r emembe r i n t e rpr e ti ng th e mee ti ng a t Cozen

3 O ' Conno r s o metime dur i ng th a t per i od . And if I

4 remember , that meeting o c curred precisely b e f ore

5 t he dinner t hat we t a lked abo ut. Actually , we

6 we n t fr om that meeting t o th e di nne r.

7 Q. And what was the purpo se o f that meeting

8 th a t occ urr ed b e f o r e t he dinner? And so t h i s was

9 o n the 1 3th , as best y o u can rec a ll it?

10 A. What was yeah , 13t h or 1 2 th . She was

11 t he f ounda ti on wa s engag i ng Cozen O'Connor as

12 th e ir PR people , and sh e me t with a gen tleman

1 3 whose name I d o n't n o w remember to ta l k about the

14 case and her findi ngs .

15 Q. And d o you rec a ll their re ac tion to thi s

16 conversation about the Ziff Brothers ?

17 MR . KRANTZ: So whose react i on?

18 MS . SAWYER : The public rel a tion s team.

19 MR . KRANT Z : So I j ust th i nk you n eed to ,

20 unfo rtun a t e ly, no t discuss t ha t conversation

21 because it may , in f ac t, be privi l eged . Co zen

22 O ' Connor ' s public relations firm i s a -- it' s also

23 a l aw fi rm , Cozen O ' Connor , and I d on ' t know if

24 th ey 're a cti ng a t th e directi on of l awyers o r no t.

25 So I wou ld suggest err i ng on the s ide o f sa f ety .

 75

1 BY MS . SAWYER :

2 Q. And so tha t dinner and this meeting was

3 in Wash i ngton?

4 A . Correct .

5 Q. Given t hat you never saw the mater i als in

6 the whi t e f older , is it possible t hat those

7 mater i a l s had to d o wi th al l egations she was

8 making abou t t he Ziff Bro t hers?

9 A . I can ' t answer --

10 MR . KRANTZ : Is it possible?

11 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Yes , it is poss i ble .

12 MR . KRANTZ : Anything ' s possible . I don 't

13 think he knows one way or th e o ther .

14 BY MS . CLAFLIN :

15 Q. Along tho s e l ines , d i d you tran s l ate any

16 documents in advance of the meeting?

17 MR . KRANTZ : For t he meet i ng?

18 MS . CLAFL I N : For the mee t ing .

19 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : For th e me e ting , no .

20 BY MS . CLAFLIN :

21 Q. Had y o u e v er tran s l ated any documents

22 about the Magnitsky Act befo re for Ms .

23 Veselni t sk aya?

24 A . Yes .

25 Q. But n o t , to your knowledge , specifi cal l y

 76

1 f or this meet i ng?

2 A No.

3 MS . CLAFLIN: I'm marking this as Exhibit 2.

4 [Samochornov Exhibit 2 was marked for

5 id en tific a ti on .]

6 MR . KRANTZ : Do you need to mark it or --

7 MS . CLAFLIN : I did.

8 MR . KRANTZ : Oh , you did.

9 MS . CLAFLIN: Yes.

10 BY MS . CLAFLIN :

11 Q. This is an email fr om Ms. Veseln itsk aya

12 to Mr . Kaveladze . My question is: Do you know if

13 this i s the document that you trans l ated f o r her?

14 A . No, I have never seen t his documen t

15 before.

16 Q. Okay . So it's not something you

17 recognize . You've done Magni t sky translations f or

18 her in t he past , but t his is no t t hat .

19 A. No .

20 Q. Okay . Go i ng back to the June 9th

21 meeting, what were y o u t o ld in advance abou t who

22 else would be attending?

23 A. Nothing.

24 Q. Did you know any of t he at t endees before

25 you got to the ma i n roo m?

 77

1 A. I knew Mr . Akhmetshin .

2 Q. Were you told that Donald Trump, Jr.,

3 wou l d be there?

4 A. Yes . When we wrote that note that you

5 showed me be f ore .

6 Q. Righ t.

7 A. I believe , it is my recollection , that

8 this is when I was told th a t th e r e would be a

9 meeting wit h Dona l d Trump, Jr.

10 Q. Were you told about Mr . Kushner?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Or Mr. Manafor t ?

13 A. No .

14 Q. Were you told abou t anyone else t hat was

15 expected , even if they didn 't end up a ttending?

16 A No .

17 Q. And you sa id, I t h i nk you sa id th a t you

18 had no t met any of t hem before t he meeting.

19 A. Except for Mr . Akhmetshin .

20 Q. Akhmetshin . At t he June 9t h mee ti ng , was

2 1 Mr . Goldstone a t the meet i ng?

22 A. As I said , I remember him taking us up

23 and t ak i ng us down . I remember a remark t hat he

24 made t aking us down . But I d o no t have a

25 recollection of him physically being in the room

 78

1 f or j ust whatever reas o n, a memory q u i rk .

2 Q. And I t hink you say t here were some

3 peo ple th at came i n wit h -- you said "him." I' m

4 just trying to clarify . Was that Mr . Kushner?

5 A. Ca n yo u give me t he contex t ?

6 Q. I believe when you had described the

7 me e ting , y o u had said that from th e Trump

8 campaign , Donald Trump, Jr ., arr i ved and t hen Mr .

9 Manafor t and Mr . Kushner and s o me o t her peo ple

10 that came with him .

11 A. That's not how I remember i t . I

12 remember, as I have described -- and , again , I am

13 going to b e sho wing you th e sides o f the r o om

1 4 because it' s e a s i er for me . So the mee t- and - gree t

15 happened here , t h i s s i de of the tab l e , and it wa s

16 Mr . Trump and Mr . Manafo rt . I don ' t think Mr .

17 Kushner was there a t t hat time. I t h i nk he

18 arrived later, and I don 't t hink he -- I don 't

1 9 rememb e r him b e i ng f o rmal l y introduc e d . I t ' s j ust

20 I don 't have t hat recollection. Bu t I remember

21 h im -- I reco gn i zed h im, and he got up and l eft a t

22 approximately a c o uple minutes after Mr .

23 Akhme t shin star t ed t a lking.

24 Q. Okay . But I believe you said earlier

25 that there we r e some oth e r p e op l e that came in as

 79

1 wel l.

2 A. And , again , I ' m no t t rying to be

3 d i fficu l t . I remember across the roo m that there

4 was Mr . Kushner in the middle , and there were some

5 people t oge t her wi th him , but I don ' t remember who

6 they were .

7 Q. Okay . Do you recall if any of those

8 o t her people stayed the whole mee t ing or --

9 A. I be l ieve -- I bel i eve Mr . Kushner was

10 the only one who left the room . But having said

11 th a t, I' m not 1 00 percent sure .

12 Q. That ' s okay. And you don 't recall how

13 many people?

14 A. No .

15 Q. Ba l lpark?

16 A. It ' s again , you know , kind of a funny

1 7 memory . I remember -- I t old you th a t Mr . Trump ,

1 8 Jr. , was seated here , Mr. Manafor t . I remember

19 somebody sitting next to him . So I remember there

20 were people all around t he t able , but how many , I

21 can ' t tel l yo u prec i sely . I remember the pos i t i o n

22 exactly of five people .

23 Q. Okay . And d i d you ever i n t roduce

24 yourself at the mee t ing or say who you were

25 representing or your r o l e?
 80

1 A. I d o n't recall .

2 Q. Did you go a round th e room and the oth e r

3 participants i ntroduced thems elves?

4 A. I don ' t recall . What I remember was this

5 initial meet - and - great , exchange o f pleasantr i es ,

6 and we were seated down .

7 Q. Was mo st o f the meeting c o nduct ed in

8 Russian or English?

9 A. So the first 5 minute s , whatever , Ms .

1 0 Vese lnitskaya took to speak was her speaking in

11 Russian wit h me tr ans l a ting -- i nterpreting ,

12 rath e r. I'm making my own mistake. Int e rpreting

13 her . And because I worked with her o n and off f o r

1 4 a year and a half , I'm able to almost tr ans l a te

15 her s imult aneously , so it was k i nd of a vo iceov er.

16 And then there was a question from Mr . Manafort ,

17 and the rest o f the meeting , Mr . Akhmetsh i n spoke ,

1 8 and Ms. Veselnitskaya asked me not to interpret.

19 Q. So you didn ' t int erpret back for her in

20 Russian what was going on for the r es t of the

2 1 meeting?

22 A No .

23 Q. Did you tr ans l a te for anyone else or just

24 for her?

25 A. Just for her .

 81

1 Q. I think yo u l aid o ut before what you

2 heard discussed a t t he meeting. Was Hillary

3 Clinto n ' s name menti o ned?

4 A. I don't recall her name being mentioned,

5 no.

6 Q. Do you recall any discussion about

7 negative info rmati o n on Hill ary Clin ton?

8 A. I don't.

9 MR . KRANT Z : Yo u i ndica t ed th at there were

10 contributions either to the DNC or Hillary

11 Clinton?

12 MR. SAMOCHORNOV : Yes, I believe t hat --

13 MR . KRANTZ : I' m no t sure which .

14 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Yeah, my understanding was

15 that th at o pening was the information.

16 MS . CLAFLIN: I'm marking this as Exhibit 3.

17 [ Sa mochornov Exhibit 3 wa s ma rked f or

18 identification.]

1 9 BY MS. CLAFLIN:

20 Q. I'll note t his i s an email between Rob

21 Goldst o ne and Donald Trump, Jr., and a few other

22 recipients . You are not a recipient on this

23 ema il. But if yo u go down t o the page Ba tes-

24 s t amped 11 897 , "Rob Go l ds ton e has offered the

25 campa i gn s o me o fficial d o cuments and info rmat i o n

 82

1 that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings

2 with Russi a and would b e very useful to your

3 f a ther."

4 A. Yes , I see that .

5 Q. Do you recall at the meeting if anyone

6 from the campaign asked about wha t was promised in

7 this email?

8 A. No, I do not .

9 Q. Okay . Do you recall if Don , Jr ., Jared

1 0 Kushner , or Mr . Manafort made any requests o f

11 Vese lnitsk aya or o f any other participants?

12 A. No, they did no t.

13 Q. I believe you said Mr . Manafort made a

14 comment a t some point . Did Mr . Kushner ever

15 comment dur i ng the meet i ng?

16 A. I don ' t recall Mr . Kushner speaking at

17 the meeting a t a ll.

18 Q. Do you recall Donald Trump, Jr ., speaking

19 during the meeting?

20 A. I rec al l the parting phrase , but I don 't

21 rec a ll any of h i s o ther rema rk s .

22 Q. Was there any mention during the meeting

23 of possible informa tion th a t might be provided in

24 th e future?

25 A. No .
 83

1 Q. Did anyone suggest they would o f f er at a

2 lat e r time neg a t ive informa t ion on Hillary

3 Cl inton?

4 A No .

5 Q. Was t here any ment i on o f a f uture meet i ng

6 a t all?

7 A. No . Li ke I d escri b e d , I remember , not

8 ve rb a t im , the closing th a t Mr . Don a ld Trump , Jr .,

9 pr ovided , but that ' s a l l th a t I rec a l l be i ng sa i d

10 fr om the othe r side .

11 MR . PRI VOR: Th a t closing being th a t Donald

12 Trump , Jr ., suggested --

13 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : If or when yes , and I

1 4 do no t rememb e r if or when , but if or when my

15 f a ther becomes Pres i dent , we wi l l rev i s i t this

16 issue .

17 BY MS . CLAFL I N:

18 Q. Did you t ake any notes during t he

19 me eti ng?

20 A No .

21 Q. Or I think you sa id yo u did no t reca l l

22 any d o cuments being exchanged?

23 A. Righ t. Yes , th a t i s correct .

24 Q. Okay .

25 A. I d o not .
 84

1 BY MR. PRI VOR :

2 Q. When Donald Trump, Jr ., referr ed to

3 rev i s iti ng thi s is s ue, were those the words he

4 used , do you recall?

5 A . That's the bes t o f my recollection.

6 Q. Do you know what he -- wha t did you

7 understand he meant when he said " this i ssue " ?

8 A. Frankly, if you are asking for my

9 reacti on , it was a very pol ite way of sayi ng ,

10 "T hank you very much . It ' s time for you to go .

11 The mee ti ng ' s over ." Bas i cally, he was very

12 polite , but after Mr. Akhme t shin ' s speech , t hey

13 k i nd o f started h i nting that , you know , time i s

14 up.

15 Q. But did you have any underst and ing o f

16 what he meant by " this issue"?

17 A . What he mean t was what he heard abou t t he

18 adoptions and the Magni t sky law . That was my

19 u nderstanding .

20 MS . CLAFL IN: I think th a t' s abou t most of

21 my questions f o r the ac tu a l meeting. Does anybody

22 want to jump in?

23 [No response .]

24 BY MS . CLAFL IN:

25 Q. You ' ve started on this path a b i t , but

 85

1 can you describe where yo u went after the meeting?

2 A. Yes . So when we came ou t of the mee t ing ,

3 Ms . Veselnitskaya remarked that she was

4 disappointed . She said in Russian , [Russian

5 phrase ], " This was i t ." And i t was e i ther Mr .

6 Golds t one or Mr . Akhmetshin who in t he elevator

7 said , " We l l , yo u put yo ur issue f orward . They no w

8 know abou t your issue . I t was a good mee t ing ."

9 And that was a conversation dur i ng the dr i nks that

10 we have had downstairs at the Trump Tower Bar .

11 Q. Do you know why she f elt d i sappo i n t ed?

1 2 Was i t t he reac t ion of t he other side? Was i t

13 something some o n e said?

14 A. I can 't speak for Ms . Veselnitskaya . I

15 kno w that s he wa s expecting something e l se from

16 the meeting , something bigger . She said , " This

1 7 was i t."

18 Q. Did Mr . Akhmetshin express any feelings

19 abo ut th e me e ting?

20 A. What I told you , I think he was t rying to

21 say, we l l , yo u ' ve put your i ssue f o rward , you

22 know , it ' s an introduction , that type of stuff .

23 But f eelings spec ifi cally, no , no t t o me .

24 Q. Was t here any discussion of what to do

25 next?
 86

1 A. No . I mea n, what t o do n ext that day?

2 Or yo u mean wha t t o do nex t i n r egards t o the

3 mee t ing and

4 Q. With regards to the meeting in terms of

5 she f el t t hat mee t ing was d i sappo i n t ing . Was

6 there discussion o f wha t she t hough t should be t he

7 next step?

8 A No .

9 Q. I t h i nk y o u sa i d you had drinks at the

10 bar?

11 A. Yes .

12 Q. Wi t h whom?

13 A. So there were f o ur pe o ple . I d o not

14 remember Mr . Goldstone being t here . So he left a t

15 some po i n t, e i ther upstairs o r d o wnstairs . Aga i n ,

16 I ' m not sure . But it was me , Ms . Veselnitskaya ,

1 7 Mr . Akhme t shin , and Mr . Kaveladze .

18 Q. Okay . Was there any discussion o f the

1 9 meeting wi th anyo ne after June 9th? Did y o u

20 con t act anyone or did anyone contac t you abou t t he

21 mee t ing?

22 A No . I had one conversation about this

23 mee t ing wi th Ms . Veseln i tskaya .

24 MR . KRANTZ : Aft er June 9t h?

25 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Huh?
 87

1 MR . KRANTZ : Afterwards , after June 9th?

2 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Afterwards , yes .

3 BY MS . CLAFL IN:

4 Q. Not with Mr . Kaveladze?

5 A No.

6 Q. Or Mr. Goldstone?

7 A . I have never met Mr . Goldst o n e after that

8 day .

9 Q. Or Mr . Akhmetshin?

10 A. No .

11 Q. Okay. Was there any other follo w-up th a t

12 you ever did fr om this meeting , any documents you

13 mi ght have translated at a lat er date?

14 A . No, ma ' am .

15 Q. Have you had any further contact with

16 anyone associated with the Trump campaign after

17 the meeting?

18 A No.

19 Q. It sounds lik e you ' ve d o n e more wo rk with

20 Ms . Veselnitskaya since th a t meeting .

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Have you had any future contact with Mr .

23 Akhmetshin?

24 A . After June 9th?

25 Q. After June 9th .

 88

1 A. Yes .

2 Q. And how about Mr . Kaveladze?

3 A. Yes, I met him, as I hav e described , o ne

4 or two times when he was introducing Ms .

5 Veselnitskaya to this other lawyer.

6 Q. Okay . And wha t was the Akhmetshin

7 contact?

8 A. I trave l ed to Washington , and he invit ed

9 me out f o r a coup l e o f dr i nks . And when he came

1 0 to New York , he also invited me out . And then I

11 saw him aga in sometime in spring o f 2 017. So we

12 saw each other kind of semi - socially, semi -

13 professionally every 2 to 3 months .

14 Q. Did you eve r discuss this meeting with

15 h im?

16 A No .

17 Q. You sa id there was one more discussion

18 with Ms . Veselnitskaya after June 9th .

19 A. Yes .

20 Q. What was discussed a t that meeting?

21 A. It was actua ll y me who rema rked th a t when

22 this meeting is going to become known , you might

23 have some very bad publicity about the case . And

24 her concern was whe ther her client will get a fair

25 trial with all the n egative information in the

 89

1 med i a . And she said , wel l, but that meet i ng was

2 nothing . I said , well , it wasn ' t exactly nothing

3 because Mr . Kushner was there . And she said ,

4 well , I don ' t remember Kushner . I said he was the

5 one who le ft. So f rom t hat conversat i on , i t

6 appeared t hat she , at least to me , said tha t she

7 didn ' t remember and didn ' t know that Mr . Kushner

8 was a t t he meeting .

9 Q. And when you say " negative information

10 about the case ," you mean the Prevezon case?

11 A. Correc t, yes .

12 Q. Okay . Had you done any work with Ms .

13 Veselnitskaya abo ut the Magnitsky Act in No vember

1 4 of 201 6 ?

15 A. I d o n ' t th i nk s o . I don ' t recal l.

16 Q. You don ' t recall translating any

1 7 doc umen t s f or her a t t hat t i me?

18 A. November 20 1 6 , Magni t sky Act? I might

19 have , but g i ve me more specifi cs . I don ' t

20 remember . There was a lo t of s t uff going on .

21 I n November , I rea l ly d o n ' t th i nk s o

2 2 because my recollection is , as I said , the case

23 was s t a yed , a nd I had v i r t ually no contac t wi t h

24 Ms. Veselni t skaya between June 20 1 6 , end o f June ,

25 unt i l abo ut Novemb e r . And she came back i n

 90

1 November to interview and to hire new counsel .

2 Q. Were you working with her in November

3 2016? Did yo u g o wit h her t o meetings and t o

4 court again?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But t his topic did not come up, t his

7 meeting?

8 A. Well , t he case -- no , t he meeting wi t h

9 Mr . Donald Trump, Jr., no , it did not come up.

10 But the Magnitsky issue did come up because that

11 was the predica te crime upon wh i ch t he civil c a se

12 was based .

13 Q. Okay. News o f the June 9th meet i ng came

1 4 out in t he press in July 201 7 . Ot her than your

15 lawyer s , did yo u discuss the meeting with anyone

16 else before the public reporting came out?

17 A. You mean before June 8 t h? No. July 8 t h ,

18 no.

19 Q. July, yes . Around the time that the

20 mee ti ng came ou t in the press , so July 201 7 , did

21 anyone else in the meeting contact yo u?

22 A No.

23 Q. Did Alan

24 A. Hold on. Rephrase that ques ti on . I did

25 tell you about my contact wi th Mr. Akhmetsh i n .

 91

1 Q. Right.

2 A. But other than th a t, nobody e lse

3 contacted me.

4 Q. So Mr . Go ldstone --

5 A. No.

6 Q. Kaveladze , Trump, Jr., Manafort , Kushner .

7 A. No n e o f those people ever c o ntact ed me

8 aga in.

9 Q. Ho w abo ut Alan Futerfas?

10 A. I do not know who that is, ma ' am .

11 Q. Ok ay . And as f a r as you know , no one

12 repres en ting or associated with , to your

13 kno wledge , the Trump Organization o r Trump

14 campaign contacted you?

15 A No .

16 BY MS . QUINT :

17 Q. Can I ask you one follow-up question?

1 8 Did you see anyone else in the Trump family other

19 than Do n, Jr ., and Kushner at the meeting?

20 A. Yes. I briefly saw Ms . I vanka Trump pass

21 through the lobby, but she did no t stop and it was

22 just she walked through .

23 BY MR . PRIVOR :

24 Q. I want to take you back to the end of the

25 June 9th meeting . Yo u said that yo u went

 92

1 downstairs t o the bar, and y o u t o ok the e l evat o r

2 down wi t h Mr . Goldstone was in the eleva tor

3 wit h y o u; is that right?

4 A. I don 't remember 100 percent. I think

5 that he was , bu t I can't vouch f or it.

6 Q. Did you see before you got on t he

7 elevato r -- after the meeting disbanded and had

8 broken up but before you go t on the eleva tor, did

9 you see Mr . Goldst o ne speak i ng t o Donald Trump,

10 Jr . ?

11 A. I don't know. I don't remember t hat . I

12 didn't see it.

13 Q. Okay. So n o side c o nversation that y o u

14 can recall wi t nessing?

15 A . I didn 't see it. I remember us kind o f

16 being ushered into the lobby and put on the

17 elevator and t hat was it. I don 't remember any

1 8 par ticul ar interactions that stuck in my mind .

19 BY MS. QUINT:

20 Q. Do you know why Mr . Kushner left early?

21 Cou ld you sense o r did he say anyth i ng?

22 A . No idea. He just got up with his phone

23 a nd left.

24 MS. CLAFLIN: I think we will go ahead and

25 break now then and switch back t o the majority.

 93

1 MR . FOSTER : We 'll go o ff at 2 : 26 .

2 [ Pause at 2:26 p.m. to 2 : 27 p . m.J

3 MS . BRENNAN: We'll go back o n the record a t

4 2 : 27 p . m.

5 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE MAJORITY

6 BY MS . BRENNAN:

7 Q. So Mol l y covered any top i cs that were

8 discussed a t t he meeting . Just to round ou t t hat

9 line of quest i o ning, outs ide of g i v i ng her

10 introductory summary -- or the intro ductory

11 informa ti on about the Ziff Brothers, did Ms.

12 Veselni t skaya speak a t all t hroughout the rest o f

13 the me eti ng?

14 A. Not t hat I recall.

15 Q. Did y o u give her a s ummary o f what

16 happened at the meeting, either during the meeting

17 or a fter t he meet ing?

18 A No.

19 Q. Do you know h ow she got a sense that the

20 mee ti ng was not as successful as she hoped it

21 wou ld be?

22 A. I know it on ly from her remark. She

23 looked disappointed , and in the eleva t or she s a id,

24 " This was it." That's what was said.

25 Q. And that was the extent o f your

 94

1 conversat i o n about the meet i ng?

2 A. Well , t hey later, as I sa id, con tinu ed

3 the discussi o n, I think, be t ween Mr . Akhmetsh i n

4 and Mr . Kavelad z e at the bar, saying that it is a

5 good fir s t step and you p ut your i ssue ou t t here .

6 And I t hink if I may offer my observation , they

7 were trying to how sho uld I put i t? -- make her

8 feel better.

9 BY MR . FOSTER :

10 Q. I'm sorry, but you said earlier , I

11 thought, t hat you didn't interpre t any o f wh a t

12 other people were saying for her .

13 A. Co rrect , yes .

14 Q. So how would she know t hat the mee ti ng

15 wen t poor l y? Does she understand English?

16 A. Maybe some of it, but I think as I said ,

1 7 on t he t opics th a t she's f a miliar wit h I canno t

1 8 tell you exactly what her knowl edge of English is.

19 I have n't t e sted her . Based o n my e xper i e nce

20 with her in the appella t e court and , aga i n , about

21 something , a ma tter that she was very familiar

2 2 with , she seemed to follow and understand roughly

23 between 20 and 30 percent o f what is be ing s a id.

24 So she can follow the genera l discussion on the

25 top i cs that sh e ' s f ami l i ar with . But that ' s what

 95

1 I have observed . I have not h eard h er speak

2 English with anyone b e yond asking for onions or

3 coffee. She asked me s e v er a l time s to find her an

4 English teacher because she wanted t o learn

5 English , bu t it never mater i a li zed . But I cannot

6 offer you decisive t estimony as to what her level

7 o f understand i ng of English was or is .

8 BY MR . DAVIS :

9 Q. Did yo u have any indic a ti o n th a t Mr .

1 0 Akhmetshin or Mr . Kaveladze filled her in in

11 Russian a s t o wha t had happened a t t he meeting in

12 English?

13 A. Say that aga i n , please? Sorry .

14 Q. To the b es t of yo ur knowledge , did either

1 5 Mr . Akhmetshin or Mr . Kaveladze spea k in Russ i an

16 to Ms . Veselnitskaya about the English portion o f

17 the mee ti ng?

18 A. That I can defi n itely answer in t he

19 negat i ve , because Ms . Vesel nitskaya was s i tting to

20 the l e ft of me and Mr . Akhmetshin was sit ti ng

21 next . I don 't remember Mr . Kaveladze . So

22 anything that was said was said in that very short

23 space .

24 BY MR . FOSTER:

25 Q. And you don ' t recall e i ther of them

 96

1 speaking to her in Russian about the --

2 A. No .

3 Q. -- Eng l ish portion o f the meet i ng?

4 A No .

5 BY MS . BRENNAN :

6 Q. Do you remember if Mr. Kaveladze said

7 anything during the me eti ng?

8 A. I don ' t know . And as I said , I cannot

9 te s tify whether he was at the meeting o r n o t . I

10 do not remember him at the meeting .

11 Q. I know th a t you ' ve said that you a lso

12 don ' t remember Mr . Goldstone being at the meeting ,

13 so I guess I ' ll ask : Do you remember if h e

1 4 discussed his VK proposal a t the meeting for

15 so c i a l media page?

16 MR . KRANTZ : His what? I ' m sorry . VK?

17 MS . BRENNAN : What ' s that abbreviat i on for?

18 MR. KRANTZ: Kontakte .

19 MS . BRENNAN : Kontakte .

20 MR . KRANTZ: The Russi an version of

21 Facebook .

22 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : I d o not remember that ,

23 Mr . Goldstone speak i ng at the meeting .

24 BY MS . BRENNAN:

25 Q. Okay .
 97

1 A. And I wo uld have r emembered the menti o n

2 of Kontakte . I und e r s t and t ha t. I don 't t h ink

3 t ha t ph r a se was mentioned a t the meet i ng .

4 MR . FOS TER: By anyone?

5 MR . SAMOC HORNOV: By anyone .

6 BY MS . BRENNAN:

7 Q. And j ust to c o nfi rm , o utside o f the

8 ot he r t han t he question -- o r ot he r t han t he

9 s t a t emen t t ha t Mr . Trump , Jr., made a t the end of

1 0 the meeting , do you remember if he asked any other

11 quest i ons or made any o t her s t a t ements?

12 A. I don 't r emember.

13 Q. Yo u sa id that you did no t take a ny notes

1 4 a t t he meeting . Do you r emembe r if anyone e l se

15 too k no t e s a t t he meeting ?

16 A. Aga in, my recollection i s not precise ,

17 and I d on ' t wa n t t o mi slead you . I have kind of a

1 8 v i s ion on th e periphery th a t someb ody th e r e t ook

1 9 notes . Whether it was Mr . Manafo rt typing on the

20 phone or whe t he r it was someb ody e l se , I cannot

21 honestly t e ll yo u. But Ms . Ve s elnit skaya d i d not

22 and Mr . Akhmetsh in didn ' t e i ther .

23 Q. Do you remember -- did Ms . Vese l n itskaya

24 le ave th e d ocume n t t hat she inte nded t o le ave with

25 Mr . Trump , Jr . ?
 98

1 A. Unfo rtunately, I don't remember . I' m

2 unable to tell you e it her way .

3 Q. Were there any documents passed around

4 during the meeting?

5 A No.

6 Q. Was t here any discussion between me mbers

7 o f the Trump campaign and the gro up o f y o u who

8 came to the mee ting a t t he end , or was it jus t Mr .

9 Trump, Jr. 's commen t ? As you were al l l eav i ng ,

10 was there any discussion?

11 A. No, and I t h ink, now th a t yo u are asking ,

12 that Mr . Manafort and Mr . Donald Trump, Jr., must

13 have s o meho w l eft through a different doo r because

14 they said that phrase, said their goodbyes , and

15 then we were ushered t o the e l eva t o r by Mr .

16 Go ldstone. But I don't think they walked us to

17 the eleva t or . I don't remember th a t.

18 MS . BRENNAN: Do you have any other

19 quest i o ns?

20 BY MR . DAVIS :

21 Q. Did any at t endee request add iti o nal

2 2 meetings or communications with any member of the

23 Trump camp a i gn?

24 A. Not t hat I' m aware of.

25 Q. And are y o u genera ll y familiar wi th the

 99

1 lobbyi ng pitch the Huma n Rights Accountab i l i ty

2 Global I n iti a ti ve has made t o Members of Congress

3 and congressional s t a ff, broad theme s ?

4 A. I ' m aware o f wit h the broad themes . I am

5 not awa re wit h t he lobbying p it ch , bu t I am awa re

6 of with th e d ocument s and with t he general

7 backgro und , yes .

8 Q. To the b es t o f your knowledge , was the

9 informa ti on provided during t he Trump Tower

1 0 meeting generally the same as that other Human

11 Ri ghts Acco u n t ab ility Glob a l I n iti a ti ve

12 info rmati on?

13 A. Yes .

14 MR . KRANTZ : Referri ng t o the info rma ti on

15 abo ut t ha t subject ma tter.

1 6 BY MR . DAVIS :

17 Q. I n general , t he t opic o f the Trump Tower

1 8 mee ti ng , does it i n general match your

1 9 u nderstanding o f the HRAGI i nfo rmat i o n?

20 A. Ye s .

21 Q. Were t he re any ma teri a l differences

22 b etween what was discussed at the meeting and the

23 general HRAGI concerns?

24 MR . KRANTZ : Are you t alking abou t t he piece

25 where Ms . Vesel nitsk aya spo ke o r the other piece ,

 1 00

1 o r b o th?

2 MR . DAVIS : Both pieces .

3 MR . KRANTZ : I think yo u need to clar if y

4 that . I ' m having trouble understanding that

5 quest i on .

6 MR. SAMOCHORNOV : I think Ms. Veselni t skaya

7 did not speak for a very l o ng time and certainly

8 did not add any details . Her previous

9 presentat i o ns were rather more extens i v e.

10 MR . KRANTZ : Maybe I ' m just going to say if

11 you underst and t he ques ti on , t hat ' s fi ne .

12 MR. SAMOCHORNOV : I rememb e r her drawing

13 d i agrams and gett i ng i nt o great detai l s abo ut what

1 4 she al l eged was the Ziff Brothers ' malfeasance .

15 So what she gave Mr . Trump was a ve ry brief

16 version , so it ' s actually the reverse fr om what

17 you have asked . So it was mo re o f a conc i se

1 8 version of wha t was presented . I am familiar with

19 her dec l aration to Co ngress . I ' ve read it , and

20 it's like 16 pages long . So , you know , rather

21 th an exp and o r say s o meth i ng th a t wasn 't sa i d

2 2 before , they were trying to communicate in a

23 concise wa y . Does t hat a nswer your quest i on?

24 MR. DAVI S : It does . Thank you .

25 BY MR . FOSTER :
 1 01

1 Q. So o n one o f these o ther o ccas i o ns that

2 you recall her g i v ing more ex t ensive -- a more

3 extensive presentati o n wi th diagrams and s o forth?

4 A. As I have said , she talked to her

5 a tt orneys a t least severa l ti mes t hro ugh t he

6 win t er abou t t he a ll eged Ziff Brothers'

7 involvement in the

8 MR . KRANTZ : Those are privileged

9 conversati o ns you 're no t g o i ng t o get into.

10 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Yes . And then there was

11 a no t her conversation abou t wh ic h we a lso do not

12 have clarity whether it was privileged. She

13 talked with her publicist as we ll after that

14 mee ting . But I can testify to you t hat there were

15 numerous several pr i o r and post o ccasi o ns where

16 that information and in greater detail was

1 7 provided by Ms . Veselni tsk a y a to other people.

18 MR. KRANTZ: So could I speak to t he wi t ness

19 f or o n e moment? Be cause I' m und e r a

20 misconcep ti on , and I want to see if it' s me or

21 you , or the quest i o n.

22 [Counsel confers with witness .]

23 MR . KRANTZ : Okay. I think the wit ness can

24 clarify, and t hen we 'll all be on the same

25 wavelength .
 1 02

1 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Okay . So I j ust would

2 like to make a clarification t hat the witness

3 spoke about Ziff Brother matters i n private

4 settings prior to the June 9th meeting .

5 MR . FOSTER: I' m sorry. Who

6 MR. KRANTZ: The wi t ness , he means

7 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Excuse me . Ms .

8 Veselni t skaya . I apologize . Ms . Veselni t skaya

9 spoke about the a lleged Ziff Brothers' i nvo l vement

10 in contributions in private settings before June

11 9t h mee ti ng .

12 MR. KRANTZ: I n the private set ting s t hat

13 are presumably pr ivile ged .

14 BY MS . BRENNAN:

15 Q. So after the meeting, y o u said that y o u

16 went to the bar in the building and had drinks.

1 7 Would you talk abou t what you did a fter th a t?

18 A. I don 't have a precise recollection. I

19 think I went h ome f or a whi l e , but I also remember

20 that Mr . Akhmetshin came to New York to a tt end a

21 play, and hi s relative was i n that play . And I

22 don't remember whether that evening or the next

23 evening we at te nded the play . It mi ght have been

24 that evening. It was a t t he Ci t y Center in New

25 York .
 103

1 Q. You attended the play as well?

2 A. Yes, tog e ther with Ms . Veselnitskaya and

3 Mr . Akhmetshin . As I rec a ll, he was the one who

4 invited me .

5 Q. And you don 't remember if that was on

6 June 9th or June 10th?

7 A. I do not . But it could have been on June

8 9th b eca use I r emembe r th e discussion th a t he was

9 in t own in the morn i ng f o r the theater, and I

1 0 remember the discussion that his either cousin or

11 relative was in th a t play.

12 Q. After the meeting did you travel to

13 Washington, D. C., with Ms . Veselnitskaya?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you remember on what day th a t was?

16 A. I remember how we traveled . We took a

17 tr a in. But I don't remember on wha t day. It must

1 8 be the next day or the day after.

19 Q. So e ither the 10th or 11th?

20 A. Or 11th, correct . Yes .

21 Q. Okay . And you took a tr a in.

22 A. Yes .

23 Q. Did anyone else travel with the t wo of

24 you?

25 A. I recall that Mr . Akhmetshin was also

 1 04

1 traveling with us.

2 Q. Do you remember what you did I guess

3 e it her on the 10t h or 11t h , o n the day when you

4 went to D.C.?

5 A. I remember th a t t here were mee ti ngs at

6 BakerHostetler, and I remember t hat one mee ting

7 wi th the publ i c i st . There was another meet ing

8 with another publicist who I t hink did t he

9 screening . And dinner. And th at ' s a ll that I

10 remember .

11 Q. At those mee ti ngs was t here any

12 discussion o f the mee ting a t Trump Tower?

13 A No .

14 BY MR . DAVIS :

15 Q. Did y o u have any indicati o n from Ms .

16 Veselnitskaya that you were to treat that meeting,

17 the Trump Tower mee ti ng , as secret?

18 A. No. But can I add that in my

1 9 pro f ess i o nal capacity as an interpreter, I am

20 bound not to t alk about my clients ; otherwise, I

21 wou ldn't get any work . So f o r me, I prefer to

22 keep my work away from my personal life, so I did

23 not talk t o anybody about th a t meet ing or , f or

24 that ma tter

25 MR . KRANTZ : And if I might add , you had an

 1 05

1 NDA as we ll.

2 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Yeah.

3 BY MS . BRENNAN:

4 Q. But I mean in the further -- in the

5 mee ti ngs at BakerHostetler , so wi t h o t her people

6 who were working on the Prevezon case and

7 Magnitsky work , was there any discussi o n with

8 those people about t he Trump Tower meeting?

9 A . No t th at I am aware of , no .

10 Q. And did you attend a dinner that night

11 wit h Ms. Veseln itsk aya in Washing t on , D.C.?

12 A . Which nigh t do you refer to?

13 Q. We l l , I guess i t would be either the 10th

14 or 11t h , so the day that you came down to D.C.

15 A . What happened t ypica lly i s that she would

16 have working meals , and she would have me and

17 there was a lso another interpre ter t hat she wor ked

18 with . So to an exten t t hat there was a meal , I

1 9 pro bably was there with her because I would e i ther

20 tr ans l a t e messages or help her in some other ways .

21 Q. Bu t y o u don 't have any spec ific --

22 A . I don 't have any specific recollecti on of

23 the sched ul e or those days.

24 BY MR . DAVI S :

25 Q. What was the name o f the other trans l ator

 1 06

1 she worked with?

2 A. She brought a fello w from Moscow , whose

3 name i s Murat Glashev , G-L-A-S-H-E-V.

4 BY MS . BRENNAN:

5 Q. Do you remember if Glenn S i mpson a tt ended

6 any of t he meetings a t Bake rHost e tler or t he PR

7 fi rm?

8 A. He was not a t t he PR firm, but he was at

9 at l eas t one meeting a t Ba kerHo stetler th a t I

1 0 remember . But that meeting occurred after I came

11 b a ck fr om New York on either t he 1 6 t h or 1 7 t h o f

12 June.

13 Q. So the me eti ng that yo u j ust re f erenced

14 b e f o r e , the one th a t was e ith e r on t he 1 0 t h or

15 11t h , was he there or

16 A. He was there f or dinner. That I

1 7 definitely reme mber. He might have been t here f or

1 8 ano t her BakerHostetler meeting . I do no t have a

1 9 precise recol l ect i o n. I have a precise

20 r eco llection o f Glen n Simpson in June 2016 on t wo

21 o ccas i o n s : the evening dinner, the l a rge group

22 dinner that I d escrib e d, which happ ened either on

23 12t h or 13t h .

24 Q. Okay .

25 A. And there was a separate me eti ng when I

 1 07

1 come back after my New Yo rk ass i gnment and wo rked

2 with her several more days in Wash ing ton before

3 she left.

4 BY MR . FOSTER:

5 Q. Do you recall any discussion o f t he Tr ump

6 Tower mee ti ng a t either of t hose --

7 A No .

8 Q. On either of those occasions?

9 A. No . In my presence there was no

10 discussion of the Trump Tower meeting with Mr .

11 S i mpson or wi t h any o f t he people there in

12 Washing to n at that ti me .

13 BY MS . BRENNAN:

14 Q. Do you remember any discussion between

15 Ms . Veselni t skaya and Mr . S impson a t those

16 meetings or dinners?

17 MR . KRANTZ : So to t he extent they're

1 8 privileged , you can't discuss them.

19 MR . SAMOC HORNOV : Can I divulge general

20 topic? That t hey were into the con t ext of t he

21 Prevezo n case.

22 BY MS . BRENNAN :

23 Q. And were you act ing as Ms .

24 Vese l ni t skaya ' s translator?

25 A. I nterpreter , yes .
 1 08

1 Q. Int e rpr e t e r.

2 BY MR . FOSTER:

3 Q. And what privilege wou ld there be between

4 Ms . Vese lnitskaya and Mr . Simpson?

5 MR . KRANTZ : If in t he context o f mee ti ngs

6 a t BakerHostetler discussing legal stra t egy in t he

7 Preve z o n case , I have no idea what ro l e Mr .

8 Simpson plays in t hat , but it's a mee ting a t a l aw

9 o ffice discussing leg a l s tr a tegy, so --

10 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : And it was in the presence

11 o f her l awyers. I do not recall her meeting with

12 Mr . Simpson one on one . It was always in the

1 3 prese nce o f her le ga l team , so that ' s why my

14 counsel a d v is ed me t hat th a t would be pr i v il eged .

15 MR . KRANT Z : We'd h ave t o get away from

16 that . I have no way o f knowing what Mr . Simpson ' s

17 role wa s in th a t meeting.

18 BY MS . BRENNAN:

19 Q. Are you aware o f lobbying efforts re l ated

20 to HRAGI during Ms . Veseln it skaya ' s Jun e tri p?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us more abo ut that?

23 MR . KRANTZ : I apolog i ze . I didn't I

24 lost my train of t hough t for a minu t e . Wha t was

25 the quest i o n?
 1 09

1 MS . BRENNAN : Are you aware o f l obbyi ng

2 effor t s r e lat ed to HRAGI during Ms .

3 Veselnitskaya ' s June trip?

4 MR . KRANTZ : Thank you .

5 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Yes. So Ms . Vese lnitskaya

6 supported this film maker , Mr . Andrei Nekrasov,

7 and helped promote his film and the screening o f

8 the film. And t o th a t ex t ent , she tr aveled to

9 Brussels where t he film was banned , and ultima tely

1 0 it is my understanding that HRAGIF secured the

11 Freedom Museum i n Washing t on t o screen t he movie.

12 BY MS . BRENNAN:

13 Q. Do you know wh i ch o ff ices -- whether --

1 4 do you know which offices or officials HRAGI and

15 it s assoc i a t es l obb i ed?

16 A . I am aware and Mr . Akhmetshin told me

17 th a t he met wit h Mr . Dana Rohrabacher , and t here

18 was ano t her Congress person , but I was no t

1 9 involved i n lobbyi ng direct l y . My understand i ng

20 was th a t it was Mr . Akhme t shin who was doing t hat

21 primari l y .

22 Q. Have you ever attended any l o bbying

23 mee ti ngs f or HRAGI?

24 A No. Ot her than t hat mee ti ng whe re I

25 acted as a facilitat or , and I do n ot know if i t

 11 0

1 could be d esc rib e d a l o bbying me et ing . But when

2 they me t and wa nt ed to ask for t he suppor t of the

3 Satmar commun i ty , I h ave n o t a t t ended any o t her

4 meetings .

5 Q. Do you know who f unds HRAGI ?

6 A. I was t old tha t t here are four Russian

7 privat e ind i vidua l s and that one o f them was Mr .

8 Denis Katsyv . And at one po i nt the direc t or of

9 HRAGI F ment i o ned t heir n a mes , but I don ' t h ave a

1 0 record o f them . My understanding is that there

11 a re f our pr i vate i ndividu a ls who did t hat .

12 BY MR . FOSTER :

13 Q. Yo u said you don ' t have a reco rd o f them .

14 Do y o u have y o u mean you don 't have a

15 recol l ect i o n?

16 A. I didn ' t put that down . It wasn ' t an

17 e ma i l . He t old i t t o me i n a convers a t i on t hat

18 th e r e were four people who did t hat .

19 Q. And y o u d o n ' t reca l l the o ther three

20 names?

21 A. No . They were not a nyt h i ng f a mi l i a r ,

22 necessarily known in th e Russian context .

23 BY MR . DAVI S :

24 Q. And wha t wa s th e relationship b e t we en

25 HRAGI and the Preve z o n l itigation team?

 111

1 A. I' m not sure I ' m the r i ght pers o n to ask

2 this ques ti on . I do no t know a ll the deta il s .

3 HRAGI F was set up to l o bby U. S . Congress t o take

4 on -- I understand you have a congressional

5 bure a u, investiga ti ons bureau , so wha t Mr . Ka t syv

6 and Ms . Vese l ni t skaya wan t ed to do is t o presen t

7 the i r fi ndings and to lobby e noug h Members o f

8 Congress t o l aunch an i ndependent i nves ti ga ti on

9 into the circumstances of the death o f Mr .

10 Magnitsky . That also was the predicate crime , and

11 I' m not a lawyer so I can ' t expl a in the

12 intricacies , but fr om my interpreting and fro m

13 reading abo ut the case , I understand that it was

1 4 a ll eged th a t a sma ll portion of the money

15 uncov ered by Mr . Magn itsky al l egedly ended up

16 being invested in rea l estate in New York .

17 Q. And given t hat Mr . Akhmetshin seems t o

18 have been a t some of t hese mee ti ngs wit h t he

1 9 BakerHostet l er team , when you were be i ng pa id f or

20 yo ur wor k as an i nterpreter for Ms . Vese l n it skaya ,

21 how was it de t ermi ned whe ther you were go i ng t o be

22 paid by BakerHostet l er or by HRAGIF?

23 A. I wa s p a id by Bak erHostetler fr om October

24 't il abou t February, and t hen t hey said a t t he

25 f oundat i o n -- and , actual l y , I th i nk i t was in

 11 2

1 January that the case was stayed . So they -- and ,

2 again , t his i s my understand i ng . I don ' t have

3 access t o any and I have never seen any charter

4 documents , but at some point HRAGIF was set up . I

5 wa s o ff ered a pos i t i on t here , and I wa s o ff ered a

6 retainer . And I star t ed being paid by HRAG I F up

7 unt i l July 201 6 . And then they k i nd o f f olded

8 HRAGI F comple t ely, and t hey disappeared from my

9 l i fe and reappeared aga i n in November when Na t a l ia

10 Veselnitskaya came to hire another representation .

11 And t hey wo rked wi t h them on and o ff unt i l May 1 5

12 beginning o f May 20 1 7 .

13 Q. And , sorry, I th i nk you did answer this

1 4 question before , bu t for my own clar i f i ca ti on , so

15 your i n t erpre t ing services at the June 9th

16 meeting , you were paid by HRAGIF for that?

17 A. Correc t.

18 MR . DAVI S : Okay .

1 9 BY MS . BRENNAN :

20 Q. I t hink you may have sa i d t hat you wen t

21 back t o New York during this t ime , bu t did y o u

22 attend the June 13th screening of " The Magni tsky

23 Act " f ilm?

24 A. No . At t hat time I was on s t age a t New

25 York Publ i c Library, at Brookl yn l ibrary, wi th Ms .

 11 3

1 Al exievi ch , so I did n o t attend that screen i ng .

2 Q. And , similarly, did you at t end on June

3 1 4th a congress i o na l hear i ng with Ms .

4 Veselni tskaya?

5 A . I did no t.

6 Q. Did you at t end a dinner wi t h Ms .

7 Veselnitskaya at the Capit o l Hill Cl ub on June

8 14th?

9 A No .

10 Q. When you came back to Washington , D. C .,

11 can you go t hro u gh again what the itiner a ry was

12 f or those days?

13 MR . KRANTZ : I' m s o rry . I just lost the

14 chronology . Which days are you referring to?

15 MS . BRENNAN: Wel l, I gues s I'm not totally

16 sure .

17 BY MS . BRENNAN:

18 Q. So you wen t back to New York , and t hen

19 you ' ve said that y o u came back t o D. C . Th e r e was

20 a dinner t hat you a tt ended . What else were you

21 doing tho se days wi t h Ms . Ve s elnit s kaya?

22 A . I think we are getting confused . The

23 dinner wa s it wa s be f ore I wen t --

24 Q. Oh .

25 A . So th e d i nn e r was either o n Friday o r

 11 4

1 Saturday before I le f t f or New York o n S u nday

2 night . And I mus t have come back on Tu esday .

3 There were t wo or three days where she worked and

4 met with Mr . Simpson at a time definitely at the

5 o ffi ces o f Bak erHostetler, and t here we re some

6 other BakerHostetler-rela t ed meetings .

7 Q. And what was the extent o f your servi ces?

8 All interpreting?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I think you said that you did not have

11 any role i n -- I t h i nk yo u sa id th a t yo u didn 't

12 know if Ms . Vese l ni t skaya had tried to connect

1 3 wi th the Trump transition team a f ter the election?

14 A. That i s correc t.

15 Q. So you d i d not h ave any r o l e in those --

16 A . No .

17 Q. Okay. Do yo u know whe t her she ever had a

18 second meeting wi t h Trump associa t es a ft er t he

1 9 June meet i ng?

20 A. I do not .

21 Q. And you have sa id th a t you d i d not h ave

22 any contact with Trump associates after the

23 mee ti ng ; i s th a t correc t ?

24 A. That is correct, yes .

25 Q. When did you fi rst become aware o f Gl e nn

 115

1 Simpson ' s o r Fusion GPS ' research abo ut Donald

2 Trump and Russia?

3 A. I re ad it in the papers s o metime .

4 Q. Okay .

5 A. When it came out in spring , I guess ,

6 2017.

7 Q. Did y o u ever discuss with Mr . Simps o n his

8 communications with the press?

9 A. No , n o t th a t I rec a ll. We ll, define

10 that , because -- and , again , to the extent o f the

11 Prevezon case , he might have done some press wo rk,

12 but I do not know

13 MR . KRANTZ : I think y o u ' re talking abo ut

14 the Fusion GPS matter and --

15 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Which communications with

16 the press? Can you be a little bit more specific?

17 BY MS . BRENNAN:

18 Q. Well , both , I thi nk . So whe ther his

19 communications related t o the Preve z o n case and

20 the Magnitsky Act and then also his work , his

21 re s earch related t o potential connecti o ns between

22 Do nald Trump and Russia .

23 A. What I can say is th at I have never heard

24 Mr. Simpson in any context -- and I hope I'm not

25 disclosing privileged -- menti o n the d o ssier

 11 6

1 MR . KRANTZ : If you want to confer , we 'l l

2 confer .

3 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : -- or Mr . St eele or any

4 election work at all . So the work that , as I

5 said , he was do i ng , he was do i ng i n the connect i on

6 to t he Prevezon case , and I' m aware that he did do

7 some publ i c i ty- type PR work . What exactly, I

8 can ' t t e 11 you . Bu t I heard t hat men ti oned . I

9 hope t hat ' s not privi l eged . Sorry . It' s a lre ady

1 0 too late.

11 MR . KRANTZ : Since t here ' s no con t ext f or

12 th e conversation , th e r e ' s no way t o determin e if

13 it ' s pr i v i leged or not .

14 MR . FOSTER : Wel l, yeah , I mean , I don 't see

15 how it can be . He's t a l k i ng with the press .

16 BY MR . FOSTER :

17 Q. So wha t i s your basis f or believi ng t hat ,

1 8 that part of his wo rk was PR wo rk?

19 A. Because I remember Ms . Vesel nitskaya and

20 Mr . Katsyv interv iewing several PR firms for t he

2 1 work on the Prevezon case , when it -- were it to

22 be litigated in court . I went to some o f the

23 mee t ings where t he i n t erv i ews were held , and I

24 heard it mentioned t hat Mr . Simpson did do some PR

25 work f or Preve zon case .

 11 7

1 MR . KRANTZ : Okay . To the extent that yo u

2 learned that at a mee ti ng with at t orneys where t he

3 press is no t presen t, that's pr i v ileged .

4 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Okay .

5 MR . FOSTER : Well , I' m no t sure that I agree

6 with t hat , but ...

7 MR . KRANTZ : Without further i nfo rmat i o n as

8 to how t here would be a breach of the pr i v il ege ,

9 we have to assume it's pr i v ileged .

1 0 BY MR . DAVIS :

11 Q. The dinner you ' ve ment i oned i n

1 2 Washing t on , D.C., the l arger one wi t h Ms .

1 3 Veselnitskaya and Mr . Simpson , d o you recal l where

1 4 that d i nner --

15 A. Vaguely . It is either a Peruv i an or a

16 Latin American restaurant . I believe there is one

17 in Ka lor a ma . And the re a son I remember it i s th a t

1 8 Mr . Cymro t has done some work in La ti n America ,

1 9 and I bel i e v e h i s wif e i s f r o m Pe ru . So they were

20 the ones who sugges t ed t he restaurant. But I

2 1 don 't remember what it was ca lled .

22 Q. I think you described previously a few

23 interactions with Mr . Ed Ba umg a rtner.

24 A. Uh - huh .

25 Q. Can yo u r e fresh our me mo ry? What was

 118

1 your int eract i o n with him?

2 A. I met him also in connection with th e

3 Prevezo n case , and it was in the fall o f 2015 when

4 I met the full group . I do not know whether he

5 worked for Mr . Simpson directly or for

6 BakerHostetler , and it wasn 't clear to me exactly

7 what his r o l e was . It was either public relations

8 or research.

9 Q. Was he present at any of the meetings on

1 0 or around June 9 , 2 016?

11 A. Not th at I recall . I rec a ll h i m being

12 present and doing some work in the fall of 2015 ,

13 but that he kind of dro pped o ut , and I d o n't

14 r emembe r him -- in f ac t, I' ve forgott en when was

15 the l as t time that I' ve s een him or heard o f him .

16 Q. So he wasn ' t at the dinners that you were

17 a t with Mr . S i mpson?

18 A. I don 't r emembe r. But it didn 't stick

19 o ut . I remember there was an active phase when he

20 was coming in th a t f a ll several days in a row, and

21 possibly maybe ano ther meet i ng i n l ater i n

22 January and February o f 2 016 . But I don ' t

23 remember him -- a nd definitely not i n the second

24 part of th e Prevezon trial, he wasn 't th e r e . In

25 June , maybe , but I d o n't have a precise answer f o r

 119

1 you , unfortunately . Sorry .

2 MR . FOSTER : Thanks.

3 MS . BRENNAN: I think that's a ll.

4 BY MR . DAVIS :

5 Q. Are yo u aware o f the Ag a l a rovs hav i ng any

6 interest in the Magni t sky Act?

7 A . No .

8 Q. And d i d you know who Mr . Kaveladze ' s

9 emp l oye r was?

10 A. No . Not at that time when I met him .

11 Q. And I t h i nk yo u may have a lre ady gone

12 over t his , but to the exten t you can restate it,

1 3 who do you reca l l attending the d i nner i n

1 4 Wash i ng t on , D. C ., with Ms . Vese lnitskaya in Jun e ?

15 A. Yo u refer t o the big d i nner?

16 Q. That's right .

17 A. So I men ti oned Mr . S i mpson and h i s wif e

18 yeah , his signi fi can t other . There was Mr .

1 9 Cymro t and his wife . And I remember there be i ng a

20 large table, bu t I can 't place any other people.

21 And can I make one c l arifica ti on? You

22 asked me if I ' m aware of whether the Agalarovs

23 were i nvolved in t he Magn it sky Ac t. I believe

24 that at second meeting t hat Mr . Kaveladze was

25 setting up with that l awyer whose name I' m

 120

1 forg ett ing was s o meho w c o nnect ed t o Mr . Agalaro v .

2 But to wha t extent , I do not know whether he was

3 invo lved financially. And , aga i n , th a t wou l d be

4 privileged because it was in the context o f the

5 legal conversation .

6 MR. KRANTZ: Before talking about a

7 conversati o n that you ' re c o ncern ed --

8 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Okay , sorry .

9 MR . KRANTZ : might be privi l eged , t ak e a

1 0 break and talk to me about it.

11 MR . SAMOCHORNOV : Okay . Yes, sir .

12 BY MR . DAVIS :

13 Q. So returning to the Wash ington, D. C .,

14 dinner , was Mr . Akhmetshin at th a t dinner , to the

15 best of your knowl edge?

16 A . I do not -- I do not know . Don ' t

17 remember.

18 Q. Do you recall if Ed Lieberman was at that

19 dinner?

20 A . I think so . Yes .

21 BY MS . BRENNAN :

22 Q. Were you sitting with Ms . Veselnitskaya

23 at that dinner?

24 A . I don 't remember. I rememb e r meeting

25 with Mr . Do nald Trump , Jr ., because it was

 1 21

1 something o ut o f the ordinary and it was s o meth i ng

2 new . This was just a r eg ular business dinner , and

3 forgive me, I jus t d o n 't remember tho se detai l s .

4 But there were some -- you know , if Mr . Akhmetshin

5 was there, t hen he speaks Russian , and , you know -

6 - and on social occasions , I did i n t erp r e t for

7 her , s o I could have been next t o her , but I d o n't

8 r emembe r.

9 MR . KRANTZ : Yo u d o n 't need to expl a in why

1 0 you don ' t remember .

11 MS . BRENNAN : Do you have anyt h i ng else?

12 [No response. J

13 MS . BRENNAN: That ' s al l we have , so we ' l l

1 4 go off t he record a t 3 : 03 p . m.

15 [Whereupon the proceedings were adjourned at 3 :0 3

16 p . m. J

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
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