Eight Days in Tiruvannamalai

Talks with Karl Renz

by Karl Renz
Transcribed and edited by Karen J. Quastler
Introduction by Ya'akov ben Avraham
 Copyright © 2005 Karl Renz
All rights reserved

"Introduction: Rollicking Advaita" Copyright © 2005, 2007 Karen J. Quastler

Cover photo: Arunachala, the holy mountain, as seen from a rooftop in

Tiruvannamalai, India. Copyright © 2007 Karen J. Quastler
For all who seek Truth
Table of Contents
Introduction: Rollicking Advaita......................................................................... ix
Editor's Notes.................................................................................................... xiii
January 15, 2004: From the oneness, everyone comes back; or, the end of
"divine love"......................................................................................................... 1
Breaking the mind, breaking the heart........................................................ 1
You are the absolute failure........................................................................ 5
Grace will break your heart ........................................................................ 9
A play of divine love ................................................................................ 12
Embracing loneliness................................................................................ 15
Any "me" is an enemy .............................................................................. 19
No place to land........................................................................................ 22
You will never reach love......................................................................... 27
Here, now, it's so extreme because you are that extreme, absolute
existence ................................................................................................... 28
Erasing the questioner .............................................................................. 32
January 16, 2004: Without a second, there is freedom; or, the end of "free will"
........................................................................................................................... 37
The directionlessness of Self .................................................................... 37
What is Karl? You must be joking! .......................................................... 42
Heart is all there is.................................................................................... 47
Grace without mercy ................................................................................ 54
Getting over Adam and Eve ..................................................................... 62
The absolute joke that you could escape this existence you are ............... 64
The silence you are cannot be disturbed by all the noise of India ............ 69
Nothing is more negative than positive thinking ...................................... 71
January 17, 2004: Still the happy failure; or, the end of intellect ..................... 79
The ghost in the bottle .............................................................................. 79
If you wake up, don't take it personally.................................................... 86
Fear is there, but no one fears................................................................... 92
Even the idea of a jnani is ignorance........................................................ 96
A person is one who hopes this will end .................................................. 99
The non-doer does the most.................................................................... 102
When my understanding drops, that is devotion ..................................... 107
Whatever you do about ignorance, you make it more ............................ 110
January 18, 2004: The problem that there is no problem; or, the end of worry
and boredom .................................................................................................... 117
It's the total demand of the totality of existence that you worry............. 117
The end of imagination........................................................................... 121
Lighting the fire of absolute burn out ..................................................... 125

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The family Karl never had...................................................................... 131
Between the wisdom of emptiness and the fullness of love ................... 136
Total doubt doesn't leave any doubter .................................................... 143
Be That which cannot be imagined ........................................................ 147
January 19, 2004: Shakti hunters and consciousness witches; or, the end of
control systems................................................................................................. 155
You make yourself an object of desire ................................................... 155
Life itself cannot get more naked ........................................................... 160
That helplessness is the Almighty .......................................................... 164
You're never prepared for the infinite you are........................................ 168
What needs some help is simply a dream character ............................... 175
Raped by existence ................................................................................. 178
You can never shut up ............................................................................ 183
You cannot not enjoy yourself................................................................ 186
January 20, 2004: In spite of my saying anything relevant, you sit there; or, the
end of all means ............................................................................................... 193
You are here for total relaxation............................................................. 193
Nothing has to go for you to be That which is........................................ 199
You will never be free from freedom ..................................................... 204
There is not even one who can control a second .................................... 212
Whatever you make an advantage puts you at a disadvantage ............... 217
You are the choicelessness ..................................................................... 220
Wanting to take a little control of your life, you become a little controller
................................................................................................................ 224
Doubt whatever you can understand....................................................... 228
January 21, 2004: Always in spite, never because; or, the end of "acceptance"
......................................................................................................................... 239
Consciousness is inexhaustible............................................................... 239
That which is Self doesn't know Self...................................................... 246
The idea of "better" is already quite worse............................................. 252
Only the mind minds the mind ............................................................... 256
Absolute control is being that controllessness........................................ 261
There is no moment without That which you are ................................... 266
That absolute "no way out" is peace, and the rest is trying to escape..... 272
January 22, 2004: You are That which is home; or, the end of all ends.......... 279
"Disappearing" the teacher ..................................................................... 279
Blowing away belief systems ................................................................. 285
Not finding the sufferer .......................................................................... 290
No avoiding the void .............................................................................. 299
Dropping the whole existence ................................................................ 303
You cannot not realize yourself.............................................................. 308
Finally, there is no "finally" ................................................................... 312

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Glossary ........................................................................................................... 319

vii
Introduction: Rollicking Advaita
by Ya'akov ben Avraham

Vorsicht! Watch out! Karl Renz is as sure to madden as he is to delight—

but people keep coming back anyway, because he is so right, or perhaps only
because he is so entertaining. With Karl, every idea, every theory, every sacred
idol of the mind, is fair game. Sooner or later, he will turn his attack to one of
your most cherished beliefs, and his bite is sure to sting, but then, amidst all the
fun and laughter and the relaxed atmosphere of acceptance that he generates,
you will start to laugh at yourself, and the hardened misconceptions with which
you perpetuate your suffering will begin to fall away.
Karl Renz is one of the foremost teachers of non-dual philosophy. "Non-
dual" really means non-multiple—all that is knowable and unknowable and also
the knower (and non-knower) of all these things are One. We use the term "non-
dual" because, in One-ness, no experience is taken to be relative to its opposite,
not even existence itself.
But though Karl is a teacher of non-dualism, he recommends no specific
technique and advocates no method. His talk will contradict itself, or run in
circles, or simply converge into indecipherable paradoxes. The room is full of
people determined to understand his system—struggling to figure it out, once
and for all, write it down, memorize it, and then walk away "enlightened"—but
there can be no figuring out, because any enlightenment you could "figure out"
would be a mere idea. Karl is always pointing to something beyond ideas and
conceptions, and he takes you there. Is Karl, therefore, enlightened? I have no
idea. What is "enlightenment"? What is "Karl"? I do not vouch for Karl Renz; I
vouch for the experience of non-duality that resonates in the words of this book.
As you read, you may begin to recognize a pattern in Karl's way of
thinking, but don't try to be clever. Enlightenment is not a matter of cleverness.
The important thing happening when you read is not the superficial meaning of
Karl's statements, but something much deeper and more mysterious. The "Karl"
we encounter in these pages has eliminated the idea of "personhood" in himself
and in his perception of others. He looks at those who ask questions, and he
responds, but for him, no one is looking, no one is being seen, no one is talking,
no one is listening; instead, there is only That which he is, which is also you and
everyone. He speaks only to That, not to the person, and by reading his words,
his perspective just might become your perspective.
The emphasis is on "just might." Karl insists that neither he nor anyone else
can do anything to enlighten you, and in fact he claims he can offer you nothing
at all. Your true state, according to Karl, is always in spite of anything you have
done, never because of anything you have done. He points out that any
enlightenment that someone could give you, or that you could somehow

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achieve, would be an enlightenment not worth having, because what is given or
achieved can be just as readily lost. An achieved enlightenment would, in his
view, be a mere mental construct, and only your mind, not the real you, has any
need for such a thing. Taking this general principle as his starting point, Karl
proceeds to obliterate (sometimes with outright vulgarity) every concept of
religion, piety, and sacredness that anyone has ever held dear.
But a word of caution is appropriate—though Karl might object. Do not fall
into the common trap of renouncing all spiritual effort as mere vanity, and then,
after a cup of coffee and a few exciting insights, imagine yourself to be
enlightened. One frequently encounters such people wherever non-dual
philosophy is being taught, but these intelligent souls have only substituted one
persona for another. Non-dualism has been called a "lollipop for the mind," and
with good reason; it offers a satisfying answer to every question. Nevertheless, if
you want to reach the highest state, you must strive and then strive some more,
just as so many others have done before you. Why? Because you cannot
possibly do anything else. As a soul that God has chosen, it is your very nature
to seek God with all your strength. But when finally you rest in the ultimate
Truth, you see very clearly that all your seeking achieved nothing, it never
actually happened, and God was there all the time, doing everything while doing
nothing at all.
One who categorizes religious philosophies might place Karl in a school of
thought known as Advaita Vedanta. Advaita means "non-dual," and the Advaita
philosophy asserts that there is no true distinction between knower and known;
the experience itself is the experiencer of the experience, while the eternal
Source remains unaffected throughout the illusory flow of change. Advaita is
rooted in the sophisticated musings of the Upanishads, Hinduism's philosophical
distillation of its ancient Vedic scriptures, and hence, it is Vedanta, that is, "the
end of the Veda." Some scholars suggest that Advaita Vedanta emerged as one
of Hinduism's responses to Buddhism, and in many ways the ideas of Buddhism
run parallel, but non-dual thought is much older than Buddhism and much
bigger than its relatively orthodox formulation in Advaita Vedanta. Non-dual
thought lies at the heart of heterodox South Asian traditions such as Kashmiri
Shaivism, and it is also a fundamental principle in Jewish mysticism. Most
important, the Advaita that Karl teaches is not confined to any religion; Karl
simply speaks from his inner experience. Nor should we dismiss Karl's teachings
as mere postmodern cynicism or the intellectual musings of a dry heart. True
Advaita is pure love, a love grounded in the experience that nothing is different
from one's own Self.
One of the leading classical teachers of Advaita Vedanta was Shankara
(686-718 C.E.), and in modern times, the Advaita philosophy was powerfully
restated and popularized by Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950 C.E.). At the foot of
the holy mountain Arunachala in the South Indian temple town of

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 Introduction
__________
Tiruvannamalai, Ramana Maharshi's hermitage continues to attract thousands of
students and seekers, and the surrounding village is like the Agora of Athens in
the time of Socrates. Under the warm tropical sun, amidst the dappled shade of
flowering trees, on temple verandahs, and in the courtyards of noisy tea shops,
teachers abound, presenting their competing versions of enlightenment. These
are informal gatherings, publicized by word of mouth alone. The seekers are a
relaxed mix of tourists and pilgrims, expatriates and native Indians. Many are
road-worn veterans of the spiritual path, bringing with them the wisdom of
many lifetimes dedicated to seeking God. They have experienced all the striving
and the hardships, all the ecstasies and the dark nights of the soul, all the hopes
and the crushing doubts of spiritual inquiry. And, at last, they have come to
Tiruvannamalai to be told, and perhaps to realize, that they themselves are the
thing they have been seeking, for Advaita teaches that in the midst of all the
seeking and attaining, you—the true You—have always been content, enjoying
an absolute contentment that is not relative to discontentment.
It is January in South India. Every day, the sky is the same clear, vibrant
blue. Flowers bloom on every creeper, bush, and tree. The warm air swells with
the sounds of birds singing, workmen shouting, and peddlers hawking their
goods. On a rooftop, under a palmleaf awning, with the holy mountain's
commanding presence as a backdrop, Karl chats and jokes, answers questions
from newcomers and longtime admirers, and all the time points everyone to
something beyond—while insisting he can do nothing at all to help you....

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Editor's Notes
This book attempts to convey the delight and drama of a week of satsangs
with Karl. It's a straight transcription, as true as possible to what was actually
said, including all of the joking around, even when it may not be "G-rated." But
this is part of the experience, and some may say that the surprise and the humor
are every much as important as the philosophy.
Although I've inserted titles and headings for the sake of readability, during
the satsangs there was no break in the flow of conversation. The first line of a
new section is actually the very next utterance. Also in the interest of
readability, I've removed some repetition and corrected some basic grammar.
(Much of the original phrasing is unedited in order to leave open the meaning of
the speech, preserve the fun of the banter, or allow the reader to "hear" the
voices through the page.) Other than these minor changes, the transcript is
complete.
People from many countries earnestly participated in these satsangs, and
some regular participants are identified by name. Except for Karl's, however, all
the names in this book have been fictionalized. In some cases, the nationalities
of the participants are noted. Based upon recordings of the satsangs, I
occasionally had to guess at a speaker's identity or nationality, and I apologize
for any error.
One convention may be worth noting. Karl's only prop is his own hand,
which he uses to symbolize the Self and three aspects or states of experience.
When Karl refers to the Self, or what he calls "Heart," he holds up a closed fist.
When he refers to the "I," or pure awareness, he raises his thumb. When he
refers to the "I am," or formless, non-identified consciousness, he raises his
thumb and index finger. And when he refers to the "I am so-and-so," or
consciousness identified with form, he raises his thumb, index, and middle
fingers.
The satsangs were held in the town of Tiruvannamalai, in the Indian state of
Tamil Nadu. Tiruvannamalai lies at the foot of Arunachala hill and is the home
of one of India's largest Shiva temples, Arunachaleswarar Temple, which is
associated with the element of fire. For centuries, the area has been regarded as
sacred and has attracted many mystics and sages…
From ten o’clock to noon, the satsang takes place on the roof of Ragini's, a
private home and one-room diner that is a short walk from Ramana Maharshi's
ashram (Sri Ramanasramam). A narrow stairway leads up to the roof. Although
there's a canopy above, the sides are open to the breeze and bright sunlight. The
roofspace is completely bare of decoration. On the concrete floor are several
mats, and five or six chairs are at the back for those who might be
uncomfortable on the floor. A simple chair waits at the front for Karl.

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A group of thirty to fifty people gather, a very international scene. Many
know each other from their years of meeting at ashrams and spiritual retreats.
The room has a relaxed atmosphere as people chat in several languages.
Punctually, Karl enters and joins in the chat, greeting and asking after people's
health. But soon the group quiets, waiting for the question and answer format to
begin. The near constant background noise comes to the foreground—"three-
wheeler" taxis and motorcycles, bicycle bells, children playing and crying,
peddlers calling out their wares, workers shouting, hammering, and drilling,
birds, cows, dogs, monkeys, etc.
With the first question, Karl speaks only to That which you are—with
hammering logic, confusing contradiction, stern compassion, and joyful, often
hilarious irreverence—and the room is transformed into a churn of the soul.
Karl's satsang is not simply an elaboration of concepts, but an experience of the
dance of Shiva, the Destroyer. And above all, in Karl's words, "It's Self-
entertainment, all the way."

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January 15, 2004: From the oneness,
everyone comes back; or, the end of
"divine love"

Breaking the mind, breaking the heart

KARL: Morning!
MATTIAS: Morning, Meister (master).
KARL: Meister? "Morning, Master" to you! Ein Meisterschreinerei (a master
carpenter's shop). Wir wird gehobelt (we will be made smooth; lit., planed like
wood). [to various attendees] Hello! How's Mexico? Good. Hello, is France
okay?
VICKI: [about the French man] Yes. He's coming back. No operation.
KARL: Maybe just seeing the hospital room, he changed his mind! [the group
laughs]
VICKI: And having the doctor tell you everything that can go wrong.
KARL: Yeah, it's like the dentist. Okay. Oh, Francesco, after yesterday, you
look shiny! He went to the hairdresser.
FRANCESCO: After he cut me, he asked, "You like this?"
KARL: [teasing] And you thought you'd better be quiet, or what? Ah, we go
again. Without questions, I will continue talking about Francesco's affairs.
[group laughs] You think now it's working?
A French WOMAN: I don't know. I am waiting for the question. Then I will see
after. [group laughs]
KARL: Okay, let's see. Looks very promising. James, it sounded like you had
something.
JAMES: I have a cold! [group laughs]
A German WOMAN: Today's an emotional carousel.
KARL: Merry-go-round. Mary goes round. Emotional merry-go-round!
A Mexican WOMAN: I have a question. What is the meaning of what Ramana
said, that when the mind is broken, we fall into the heart? Many times I've tried

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to understand what this is. Is this like a koan that the monks do? What's the
difference between "killing the mind" and "breaking the mind"? What's the
meaning of "breaking the mind"?
KARL: You have a broken heart.
WOMAN: And what does this have to do with the "split second" that you talk
about? Is the broken mind like the split second?
KARL: This is when the heart breaks.
WOMAN: You always say "heart."
KARL: When the heart breaks, you have a heartbroken existence. You are not in
love with anything anymore. When the heart is totally broken, in that split
second, there is no mind anymore. There is only mind as long as there is a
heart—a lover and something beloved. But with the heart broken, there is no
mind anymore, because you are not glued to anything.
So the breaking of the mind is actually breaking the heart. The heart is totally
broken in that moment there is no lover and nothing beloved anymore. As the
beloved is gone, the lover is gone, and being heartbroken, the mind is gone too.
There is only mind because there is a lover and something beloved, something
you care about. It is the same.
In that split second, you lose all the glue. You have no clue anymore. About
anything. Your heart is broken, there is no lover and nothing beloved anymore,
and even the idea of "love" is gone.
WOMAN: It is the same thing you have been talking and talking about.
KARL: Yeah, always pointing to That.
WOMAN: So what is this "split second"?
KARL: It breaks in one split second. You may dent it for a while, but then it
pops up again. When it breaks, it breaks at once and not in slow motion. That's
why it's called "heartbreak." At that moment, it's broken—it's a split second.
There is no time. Everything else, like meditation, may bend it, but you cannot
dissolve it. It breaks at once, because all the relationship ideas break at once.
That's being heartbroken.
When you lose that total love for yourself, there is no one left anymore. It's a
split second. You drop out of that existence. It's not something you can come to
by understanding, or anything. It simply comes by that total resignation of
loving love itself.
AIKO: Then what is all this about "opening the heart"?

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 January 15, 2004
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KARL: That's a surgery, but it will not break the heart. It simply makes it open.
AIKO: Must it be open before it breaks?
KARL: No. "Open heart" is like "oneness heart," like bliss or a feeling of
oneness. It cannot break anymore. It breaks here—being in love with the world
and then losing that love. But not by going to that oneness or any landing place.
It has to break here, now, and not in any special state.
[An explosion is heard in the background.]
AIKO: Can you dissolve in oneness? Is that a different way to lose the mind?
KARL: No. From the oneness, everyone comes back. What is love is oneness,
and it always goes back to the separation of a lover and something beloved.
Many people go from the relative love to the oneness love, but then a beautiful
girl or man comes their way and they step into the same thing again. It's worth
nothing anyway. That heaven of oneness is fleeting. It's promising a lot but it's
not delivering.
AIKO: I have a guru and he's love itself.
KARL: Who says so?
AIKO: I see it.
KARL: Who sees it? Who defines it? Who makes the standards of love? You.
AIKO: It's my hope.
KARL: It's your opinion.
AIKO: It's my projection.
KARL: It's your longing, it's your devotion, whatever. It's you who make it. It's
your imagination of what it has to be. Because you are longing for That, you
make an image of it and then you project it onto that guru. But it's still relative
love. Whatever love you can experience is relative. There's nothing wrong with
it, I say. I just point out that you can go to that place of oneness and love, but
wherever you go, you have to leave again.
That which you are has to be, in any circumstance, That which it is. What needs
a special circumstance, like a definition of love, is dependency. Love that makes
you dependant is, for sure, not the freedom you are looking for. So you frame it
again, putting it into some beloved guru. It's okay, but just see, freedom is not
that.
ROSA: Does the mind exist?

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 Eight Days in Tiruvannamalai
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KARL: As the clouds are, it is. Do the clouds exist? For a while they exist; then
it rains and they are gone.
ROSA: So it's a bundle of thoughts?
KARL: One thought surrounded by other thoughts. But whenever you want
them to go, you make them real. The cloud will rain one day and then the cloud
will be gone. That's the mind. It becomes a cloud again, then it rains again, and
then becomes a cloud again. What is water is always building a cloud again.
ROSA: What does it mean when one says "the mind drops to the heart," or "the
mind resolves in the heart"?
KARL: That's when the heart is broken. Then it's the empty Heart. And only that
emptiness can contain the fullness of existence. In that fullness of existence,
there is no place of mind anymore, because there is no mind in the fullness of
That which is. In that broken heart, where Heart is totally empty of any idea of
love or freedom, it can contain the totality.
But as soon as there's a definition of love, or one who defines love as "oneness"
or "divine" or whatever, it's occupied. There's occupation and possession.
There's one who defines something. This definer is mind. But in the emptiness
of Heart, there's no place for any definer anymore. So this emptiness of Heart
contains the absolute totality of existence—but not any idea. That first idea of
"me," the "I"-thought, the ownership idea, occupies everything.
ROSA: And the closest—any word will be an limitation—is stillness?
KARL: It is That which is stillness, but that stillness doesn't know stillness. It's
simply a pointer to That, that nothing ever happened to That. There is no coming
and no going in it. It's so solid in itself. It is never in time or out of time. It has
absolutely no definition. It's so absolute in itself that it doesn't even have to exist
to exist. Way beyond the beyond!
KLARA: Karl, is that something like a satori?
KARL: It is, but it is not. What wakes up is still asleep. That idea of
"awakening" makes you asleep, and what can wake up is still asleep. There was
never one who was not awake and there will never be one who is awake. Both
ideas make you asleep. Both come together and go together. There will never be
any satori for what you are, but for that which needs a satori, there is a satori.
But there is none.
THERESE: And Karl, for what you are, this split second doesn't matter either?
KARL: No. You long for it. It matters totally. Only that matters—to lose that
love for yourself. There is nothing else. Everything else pales before your

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 January 15, 2004
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longing to go to that ruthlessness you are. That ruthlessness is emptiness of
ideas, of one who is in love or not in love, of one who cares. That
concernlessness is what you're longing for so much. That Self is sitting here
longing for that concernlessness. That's all.
THERESE: And there is nothing to do?
KARL: In that split second, your heart will be broken totally. There will be no
one left, because in that heartbroken heart, there is no idea anymore. So you
have no glue anymore for anything. You have no relationship, because you see
there is no second. You are absolutely alone. You cannot avoid it anymore.

You are the absolute failure

THERESE: So, when I am on my deathbed and the split second didn't happen,
then I am a failure?
KARL: You're always a failure! That's a failure, that you always will be a
failure. You see that there's nothing to gain, nothing to lose. You are the total
failure, because whatever you did didn't bring anything. You are the absolute
failure, here and now, don't worry! [group laughs] You will always fail yourself.
GEORG: How can Self long for anything? If there's non-duality, how can Self
long for concernlessness?
KARL: Simply by taking a phantom image as real. It creates an image of itself
and then becomes trapped in that image by taking the image as real. What else is
there to take something as real? Being the Source of imagination, only the Self
can imagine something, and then step from that Absolute into some relative
experience. If there is any experience, it is always the Self.
GEORG: The Self does all that?
KARL: Whatever is done, is done by That, and by not doing anything. It's a
dream-like thing, so it's not doing anything, but still it is the Self experiencing
the Self in a dream of itself.
GEORG: With no difference between dream and reality, dream is just a word. If
it's experiencing anything, then it's experiencing something.
KARL: Whatever is experienced is experienced by the Self experiencing an
aspect of Self. There is nothing but That.
GEORG: [laughing] Okay!

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KARL: Thank you very much. [group laughs] Part of the experience is that you
become a jiva, a little self, so that you can experience that separation, that
dream-like separation, and then you step out.
GEORG: It sounds a bit tricky to have all this duality inside the non-duality.
KARL: Yeah, all comes together as you realize yourself. All that is part of your
absolute realization. In absolute realization, there's separation, oneness, and
awareness—as the trinity of your infinite body or whatever manifestation. You
cannot not realize yourself, and part of it is separation. So what? To be That, it
doesn't matter. That is what you are.
GEORG: So why should That give a damn? Why does it have this longing?
KARL: Why not?
GEORG: Yeah, why not?
KARL: If there's nothing to lose, my goodness, it can give a damn, but it doesn't
give any damn at all. It can give everything by giving nothing. It has nothing to
lose, my goodness!
GEORG: But what of this longing business?
KARL: Yeah, why not?
GEORG: [laughing] Why not!
KARL: What's the problem with longing?
THERESE: Because it keeps on creating this sense of failure.
KARL: Wonderful. Why not? Wonderful experience of being a failure . What's
wrong with being a failure? Be happy. Happy failure. Who cares? [group
laughs]
A WOMAN: And on the other hand, this longing is also you projecting that you
gain something.
KARL: Yeah, why not? You have nothing to lose. Even there is no advantage in
not longing. Why not long? You are the helplessness. You cannot decide to long
or not to long, that's all. So why not?
VICKI: Longing hurts!
KARL: Phew! I tell you, even that hurting or whatever you experience is totally
enjoyed by That which you are.
VICKI: But not by me!

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 January 15, 2004
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KARL: The "me" is part of the enjoyment. The "me" never did enjoy anything!
It's part of That which is enjoyed. That "me" is an idea and cannot enjoy
anything. Whatever is experienced is experienced by that experience itself, that
Absolute. That Absolute cannot not enjoy itself. It's joy itself, because there is a
total absence of anything, of any idea of joy or no joy.
TOMAS: Then how can there be joy?
KARL: How can there be no joy? It's just a name for something which is joy
because there's an absence of whatever. You are a total absence of any idea of
one who has joy or no joy, and that is the Absolute enjoying itself by not
knowing joy. So that joy doesn't know joy.
TOMAS: And doesn't experience it. If it doesn't know it, then how—
KARL: To be That is joy itself.
TOMAS: But joy itself is somehow defined by having an experience.
KARL: There is no difference. It defines itself in everything, but itself cannot be
defined. It defines itself as "joy" and "no joy," as "war" and "peace," but
whatever you define, comes out of that absolute Source, and that absolute
Source cannot be defined. That absolute definer cannot be defined, but it defines
itself in whatever you can imagine.
So that imagination is the definition of that definer in the realization of what it
is, but it's not the realization. It is still That which is realizing itself. It was never
part of the realization. It's here, now, That which is realizing itself, not the
reflection of it. Isn't it fun? [group laughs]
Come on! Enjoy yourself, or you will be enjoyed. That's all I am saying. Joy will
be there, whether you like it or not. [group laughs] So you can be That which is
enjoying itself, absolutely, or you can be enjoyed by it. What's the problem?
Both are no problem.
TOMAS: So it's somehow like saying "yes" to everything.
KARL: No one says "yes."
TOMAS: Without saying "yes," but there is acceptance.
KARL: Who needs it? Who needs that acceptance? Forget it. Forget the word.
Acceptance itself doesn't need acceptance. What needs acceptance is not That
which is acceptance. What to do?
It will not be your acceptance, I tell you. That's the whole problem! You cannot
put acceptance in your pocket and take it with you for the rest of your so-called

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existence. That is the person—"me"—trying to be happy all the time and then
trying to accept what is. But you can never accept That which is.
THERESE: But even this trying I can do nothing about?
KARL: Oh my goodness!
THERESE: No, I am asking.
KARL: Oh, yes, "I am asking"! You want to have a free letter or something?
Absolution all the time. "I cannot do anything. I am not the doer. I cannot help
myself." So that is okay too. "I'm not guilty!" But Thérèse is always guilty. She
is guilt itself. [group laughs] There's the confirmation!
THERESE: [laughing] Happy guilt and happy failure!
KARL: Always picking on herself. With her sword. "I'm not guilty!" [group
laughs]
THERESE: You know, when we were in Portugal, we never went there with all
this kind of talk, and as soon as I see you, it's like something goes. For four
months, there was no discussion inside, no moods, emotions coming up and
down—
KARL: Oh, come on! No discussion with your beloved? [group laughs] As I
always say, I can only sit here and blah, blah, blah, so that you see it doesn't
make any difference. There is no problem, blah, blah, blah.
FRANCESCO: So why you don't tell us all something beautiful?
KARL: Oh my goodness. I'll talk to your hairdresser! [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: It's only blah, blah, blah! Talk, talk, talk. Yeah, you like it.
KARL: Yeah, I like it.
FRANCESCO: [teasing] It's German! [group laughs]
KARL: [teasing] Staccato. It's what Italians do.
FRANCESCO: It's boring.
KARL: Especially yesterday. You could not think anymore. I saw it. [group
laughs] Totally there. I saw it in the reflection of their eyes.
FRANCESCO: What to do?
KARL: [to the group] You have to know, this is the Brahmacharya club here.
[points to some men sitting on one side, including Francesco] Seven years, nine
years, ten years of no sex. And then this young woman was sitting there with no
underwear, and they saw everything. [group laughs]

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FRANCESCO: Not only me. A lot of people saw.
KARL: Oh yeah, that other guy even when to sit from this side to that side.
[group laughs] I tell you, existence is such a director.
FRANCESCO: It makes no difference. Who cares?
KARL: Aw, wasn't that nice, Francesco! You saw her, and straightaway you
went to the hairdresser.
FRANCESCO: Maybe she comes back. [group laughs]
KARL: You were shaved, totally. Okay. [group laughs] It's dangerous to make
like this.
LIZ: [laughing] Sometimes when you stretch, it's trouble. You're a stretch itself!

Grace will break your heart

MR. RAO: You said, "Try to accept what is, but you cannot accept what is." I
do not understand. How can you not accept what is?
KARL: You cannot accept existence, because already existence is a crisis. Out
of that first notion of existence, the crisis starts. You are in a crisis with that "I"-
thought already. And then at "I am," the crisis of "I am so-and-so" starts. You
cannot accept that. Because the longing, the one who can long, the possibility of
longing, starts there. Maybe there is no longing, but the possibility will always
be there in that first notion of existence. This you cannot accept.
But for That which is, there's no problem, because it is acceptance itself. There
is nothing to accept, only to be That which is without a second. When you are
That which is, without any idea of what you are and what you are not, when
there is no second, then you are acceptance, because there is nothing left to
accept. Not even the idea of "existence" is there. So then there is absolutely no
necessity of acceptance, no need at all for That which you are.
So the total absence of any idea of whether to exist or not to exist is That, and
then you are acceptance. But then there is nothing to accept anymore. That's
why I am saying, you can never accept, as you are acceptance already. You
cannot have more acceptance for what is—as you are already acceptance itself,
there is nothing to gain by any relative acceptance.
What to do with it? You cannot add to that absolute acceptance that you are!
And then, when you accept, what then? So what? It's all coming and going,
fleeting shadows of acceptance. Then you reach some control system of
acceptance and understanding, and then you will be crossed by a camel again.

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Stepping on your feet. No way out. Only you may accept as a person, but it will
not be your acceptance.
But we cannot go further than this. This is the last thing. This is called satori.
This is stepping out of that wanting into that "not wanting." But that's all. You
cannot break your own heart. It will be broken when it breaks. In that split
second, not one whatever before, in spite of what happened before, with your
acceptance or non-acceptance, whatever you have done or understood or not, it
will break at that instant. That's all.
KLARA: What does "not wanting" mean?
KARL: Not wanting means "no wanting."
KLARA: Is it indifference?
KARL: Wanting no difference? Wanting to be indifferent? What an idea! [group
laughs] Wanting to be indifferent, you still make a difference of wanting to be
indifferent. Even the idea of "indifference" is different. Being totally attached to
detachment. Oh my goodness. "Oh, I'm so detached!"
ROSA: Will you talk about grace?
KARL: Grace? I talk about you all the time! [group laughs] I only talk about
grace. I'm always talking about That which is grace. What is grace is That which
is Self. That which is grace is what you are. And you are looking for grace, and
that's your problem.
ROSA: I just wanted to hear what you say about grace.
KARL: But I cannot talk about grace, because grace you cannot find.
ROSA: Exactly. That's what I wanted to hear.
KARL: It's like every seeker is looking every place, in every dimension, for
grace, but you cannot find it. Opposite! If grace is after you, you cannot hide. So
when grace is after you, it will break your heart. Because grace is breaking all
ideas; all concepts will be annihilated by that grace. By the annihilation of all
ideas, you become totally empty, and it breaks your heart.
This is like senselessness. You cannot cope with this; you cannot live by that.
That senselessness, that emptiness of whatever ideas, you cannot deal with, you
cannot grasp, you cannot exist in it. This will break your heart. It will break your
idea of "existence." Your loving whatever objective idea of existence will be, by
grace, erased. Eh-graced! [group laughs] It's grazing! Eating all the stupidity
away.
GEORG: Disgraced.

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KARL: [laughing] Disgraced!
MARY: What do you say about loving more and more, and still yet more, until
we become worthy of—
KARL: Worthy?
MARY: Worthy of this breaking, this ultimate blessing.
KARL: You will never be pure enough, my dear!
MARY: Not becoming more and more pure, but loving more and more the truth.
KARL: Your love is too dirty! No one wants your love! Dirty love. The idea of
"love" is dirty. More love is dirty. Quantity of love is dirty. Even the idea of "a
quantity of love" is dirty. You are offering me a dirty idea. You are dirt itself in
that moment you want to get love.
MARY: [softly] But love—
KARL: What love? "Let's talk about love, my dear!" [group laughs]
MARY: I wanted to know what you would say about it, and I got the answer.
KARL: You can never be ripe enough, or mature enough, by whatever you do.
MARY: Loving is not trying to get ripe. Loving is not trying—
KARL: What loving?
MARY: Loving is like—
KARL: Whose loving will it be?
MARY: Loving is not an "I-me-mine." "I-me-mine" is not a loving. "I-me-mine"
is a wanting.
KARL: Listen to you! You want to control what you are by loving yourself,
wanting to become ripe for it. So you still want to control it by you liking to do
something, to become something. What an idea! What a dirty idea. You want to
control existence! By what? My goodness.
MARY: Thank you.
KARL: Welcome. Very welcome. It always sounds so beautiful.
MARY: I wasn't trying to sound beautiful.
KARL: Oh, come on! Forget it.
MARY: Okay. Thank you.
MONIKA: [singing] "All you need is love, da da da da da."

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[Others join in singing.]
KARL: "Maybe I'm not the only one." "Let it be." [group laughs] One Beatle,
one bead from that side and one bead from the other side.

A play of divine love

MARY: Well, let's go into this a little bit more. I need to go into this more.
KARL: What?
MARY: Loving is a giving. It's not a wanting. It's not an asking. Real love is a
giving.
KARL: What real love? Even the idea of "real love" is shit.
MARY: Divine love has no purpose.
KARL: What purpose? You want to put it in your purse. You want to define it,
and that is putting it into your purse of your owning some understanding and
some definition of love. You make it dirty. Whatever you tell, whatever you say
about it, you make it dirty!
MARY: I have a reference for this.
KARL: What reference? You, reverent? You've become a referee for love?
MARY: Meher Baba.
KARL: Meher Baba! Ali Baba! Are you one of the forty thieves, or what?
[group laughs] "Open sesame! By my beauty, by my heart, open sesame!"
MARY: There's no "my" in love.
KARL: So no my love? Well, it's still very mean. You are still meaning
something.
MARY: I wanted to present this to you—that love, real love, is not
contaminated by wanting.
KARL: Of course. Even to call it "real love"—
MARY: I mean—
KARL: Whatever you say, my goodness, forget it! Romantic bullshit.
MARY: No, this has nothing to do with that. "Romantic" is bullshit.
KARL: This is romantic bullshit; this is divine romantic—even more bullshit!
[group laughs]

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MARY: Real love is not for the faint- or weak-hearted. That's romanticism. This
is something else.
KARL: Oh goodness. Always, "this is something else." Blah, blah, blah.
MARY: I won't, I won't— I thank you for the cutting. Because the speaking is
always an "I-me-mine." But this is a concept that's really—
KARL: What? Still a concept.
MARY: —that is beyond.
KARL: In German, we say it's still a Kotzept (vomit; play on Konzept meaning
"rough idea"). You have to break out.
MARY: Divine love is not a concept!
KARL: It is a Kotzept. You have to break it out. Vomit it out, here and now!
[group laughs]
GEORG: Concept, Kassette (cash-box; casket).
KARL: Kassette! You want to put love in the Kassette of your ideas.
MARY: It's a gift.
KARL: It's a gift, yes! Gift in German means "poison." It's totally poison!
[group laughs]
MARY: Divine love is a gift of God.
KARL: What God? What "God" are you talking about?
MARY: The One.
KARL: What One?
MARY: The Self.
KARL: What "Self" are you talking about?
MARY: Even Ramana says—
KARL: Even Ramana! Now you are even quoting Ramana! You want to get all
the sources together just to make your point, or what? Ramana, Meher Baba,
Tralala, Falala! [group laughs]
MARY: The true masters are all one and the same.
KARL: True master! What is a true master?
MARY: The true master is the Self realized.

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KARL: The true master doesn't know any true master! What are you talking
about? You want to be a true master. That's what you're wanting to be. "No, no,
not me!"
MARY: [laughing] I don't, I really don't. But I do have a reverence for this
divine love, this purposeless—
KARL: You're longing for whatever you can put into the pocket of your
experience.
MARY: One can't long for it; it's a gift.
KARL: What gift? Ah, forget it. Be gifted.
ROSA: Are you saying not to talk about it?
KARL: You can talk about it, but you cannot talk it to come and you cannot talk
it to go away.
ROSA: It's to be.
KARL: I have no idea! Whatever you have an idea of is like dirt in it. Whatever
you make out of it, whatever word you use, is dirt for That. That doesn't know
anything about "divine," or Self, or any master.
MARY: Right.
FRANCESCO: [laughing] This is true.
MARY: This I feel. That's what I was saying. But I feel that you should know
more of what I was saying.
KARL: Why should I know anything?
MARY: Oh, okay.
KARL: You want to control me, so that I should know something. No? You
want my agreement. You are looking for confirmation.
FRANCESCO: Me too. [group laughs]
KARL: "Please confirm my idea of 'love'! Please, if you only could see my idea!
How can I represent it to you? Please take it. Eat it from me!"
MARY: You know what? Really, it wasn't meant that way.
KARL: Okay. Don't worry.
FRANCESCO: "Don't worry. Be happy." "Tomorrow is another day."
KARL: Tomorrow may never come, thank God.

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 January 15, 2004
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FRANCESCO: [laughing] The problem is, I come again.
KARL: [laughing] You come again, everyday. What to do?

Embracing loneliness
KARL: Question? I'm not as bad as I look—maybe worse! Mexico, something?
Mexican WOMAN: In the case of saying, "no, no, no, not this, not this, not
this," by denying everything, does something happen if you wait?
KARL: Maybe, maybe not. It's always a "maybe," a speculation. Whatever you
can say, whatever you make up, is a speculation about it.
WOMAN: No, I really like it.
KARL: I can only talk about when the split second really breaks your heart.
Then there is no heart anymore. That's all. Then you have no glue anymore.
Because without that glue of ideas or whatever, there is That. But That was
always there.
MARY: So that's the divine love.
MONIKA: She comes again!
KARL: Forget it! Maybe if you drink enough wine, you are in the divine love.
MARY: Maybe I should use another word.
KARL: Yeah, maybe. Maybe you don't make it so special.
MARY: You used the word peace. You're not afraid to use that word.
KARL: Peace, yeah. Maybe it's more fitting.
MARY: Peace. Enjoyment. Love. Sing.
KARL: No, no. Peace is joy itself because there is no second. But there is no
idea of peace.
MARY: There is no second in love.
KARL: Yeah, but this "no second" is still a second.
MARY: Hmm?
KARL: That "no second" of love, that oneness, is still a second.
MARY: There's no second in peace; there's no second in love.

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KARL: I'm not talking about that "no second" of oneness. I'm not talking about
this "oneness love" thing. I'm not talking about the love of God, loving
himself—
MARY: The Self is peace itself, happiness itself, love itself.
KARL: But it doesn't know peace.
MARY: Peace itself, love itself.
KARL: But you can call it "underwear itself." [group laughs]
MARY: Love itself too. Why should I shy away from this word love?
KARL: Because it's such a high icon, and it simply makes it so special.
MARY: Then say that.
KARL: You make it by that. Just call it "the divine underwear," then I'm fine!
[group laughs]
MARY: Why so shy? You're not shy with the word peace. You're not shy with
the word bliss.
KARL: Whatever you say, I have to destroy it anyway. So forget it!
MARY: Maybe it's because love is such a misused word. It's not understood.
KARL: There's so much expectation in it. That's why it's called "Sat-shit-
ananda," because you don't expect something coming out of shit.
MARY: In love, there's no expectation!
KARL: What? By putting this word onto something, there is expectation.
GEORG: Karl, grammatically, love has an object and peace does not. It's as
simple as that.
KARL: Yeah, that's a point. There's only love when there is a lover and
something beloved. Peace, not.
MARY: Okay. Then I add the word divine love. [group laughs]
KARL: Forget "de wine"! My goodness. Don't drink so much. You still want to
be drunk?
MARY: Rumi has said—
KARL: What Rumi? We have a rumor now. You make a rumor out of it. Comes
a rumor from Rumi, or what?
MARY: Rumi, Hafiz—they were not afraid of the word love.

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 January 15, 2004
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KARL: So what? What does it mean?
MARY: They weren't afraid of the words peace or love.
KARL: You need confirmers from somewhere, now? Speak for yourself, and
not about who said something.
MARY: I know this is the truth. I'm just not gonna back down.
KARL: You know this is the truth?!
MARY: I'm not going to be reluctant to use this word.
KARL: We have to bow down to her now! She knows the truth. The only one I
know who knows the truth. She's to give satsang tomorrow morning, nine
o'clock, her place! [group laughs]
MARY: I'm not this truth. I do not feel that I am this truth. It's intuition. I'm not
gonna back down from this. It's not speculation; it's not conceptualization. It's
my very heart.
KARL: You are the mouth that found itself.
MARY: I won't bring it up again.
KARL: The divine speculation! [group laughs]
MARY: Intuition is not speculation. It's a whole other order.
KARL: What order?
MARY: What's the word speculation? There's the word speculation, there's the
word intuition, there's the word realization—these are different things.
KARL: But they don't make any difference. You are still the devil who wants to
make differences where there are none. [silence] Hallelujah. My goodness.
LIZ: I had this experience once.
MONIKA: Another comes.
LIZ: I sit here with you and it goes in my mind all over again. I was read to once
about Shiva. It was a poem of some kind, not quite in a language I understood.
But there was one line in it that went over and over, and I finally asked the
swami, "What is this line?" And he said, "It's not this, it's not this, it's not this."
So when I sit here, everything is "not this," and it's such a relief.
KARL: That's why I am sitting here. Whatever comes up, it's "not this."
LIZ: [teasing] And then I was enlightened. [group laughs] I'll hold satsang.
Downstairs.

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MARY: "Not this, not this, not this"—isn't that love? Isn't that the gift?
KARL: No. It cannot be given to you, not by any line, not by any beautiful
words, not by whatever—it cannot be given to you. It's not a gift, not a
transmission.
MARY: It's grace.
KARL: [sternly] It's not even grace.
MARY: That's what I mean by gift—"grace."
KARL: It's a joke here and now that grace is looking for grace at all.
MARY: Who can do neti-neti absolutely, but grace? And that's love.
KARL: Not even grace can do it.
MARY: And love has no expectation, so that's what I'm saying.
KARL: But you're still defining love.
MARY: This is no definition.
KARL: Of course it's a definition!
MARY: No!
KARL: Oh, come on. You are in a division.
MARY: Love has nothing to do with division.
KARL: Even the idea of "love" makes a difference.
MARY: What about "peace"?
KARL: The same. Whatever idea you make, it makes a division. Love makes no
difference.
A WOMAN: Here I am, with this I have to live, my God! This is why I am in
trouble. With all these concepts, it is a very lonely place.
KARL: That's why this is called "the embracement of loneliness," which is
grace. There is no idea of love anymore, or anything. This is not bliss, this is not
something—
MARY: That's what love is!
KARL: Forget it! It will break your heart, whether you like it or not.
MARY: Yes, love breaks the heart. [group laughs] That's love. Broken heart.
KARL: Whatever you say. My goodness.

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 January 15, 2004
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MARY: All right.
KARL: Is everything okay there? Is something coming up?
FRANCESCO: [pretending to cry] A question, a question! [group laughs] Poor
Karl!
KARL: Compassion from him! Thank you.
FRANCESCO: Welcome.

Any "me" is an enemy

KARL: You're from Berlin? Just arrived?
KLARA: No, I am three weeks now in India.
KARL: Everything fine?
KLARA: This is something, but I am just observing, and then it goes away
again.
KARL: Oh, just spit it out. It's called "spitting honestly." Someone called it
"core-splitting honesty." [group laughs]
KLARA: I just find that today, it's not so easy to laugh as yesterday. Something
happened yesterday evening. My heart was hurting because I realized how
attached I am to getting attention from others and to being seen. There was one
sentence from another person that—pow!—I wanted to just explode or—
KARL: [teasing] You wanted to jump out of the basement and kill yourself?
KLARA: [laughing] No, I just felt how much it hurts. Then afterwards I read
Das Buch Karl [a book by Karl Renz in German] about the war, and it helped
me, just to see what's happening.
KARL: Yeah, sometimes this war is not so intense, but it is always war once
you have the idea that you are in the world. It's always friendly fire.
A WOMAN: What's this?
KARL: In Iraq now, the American soldiers kill themselves by friendly fire. The
other one is no different from you, so it's always friendly fire. But they shoot
anyway.
GEORG: It's accidental.
KARL: Yeah, by accident they take you as an enemy, as you take them for an
enemy, and so they shoot. But they call it "friendly fire."

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MONIKA: But you're dead away!
KARL: This is like the world. Everyone shoots, because they think there is an
enemy. But being any "me," there are enemies.
GEORG: Divine love!
KARL: [laughing] The divine love is always friendly fire and not caring about
the other one. "It's my divine love!" That's why Jesus said that there will never
be any peace on earth. As long as there is a world at all, there is war. As long as
you are in any world and you see any world, there is war.
You are always at war with yourself. Whenever you make an image you take as
real and not Self, there is war. Any moment there is a second one, there is war.
Even if there is a world peace situation, there is still war.
Only That is peace which doesn't know any peace. Whatever comes out of it,
even divine love, is war. So you fight for that divine love, you fight for freedom.
Look, Bush is sending so many soldiers into Iraq simply for the idea of
"freedom," and out of that idea of "freedom," there is war. Out of the idea of
"peace," there is war! Out of the idea of "love," there is hate. Even if you call it
"divine love," there is still hate. Whatever you say—
MARY: Divine love has nothing to do with hate.
KARL: Oh, come on!
MARY: Love is of a whole other order. Should we make up another word?
KARL: What word?! There's just this word, this word!
MARY: I'll buy that. But let's not mix things that shouldn't be mixed in. Like, he
was sarcastic about divine love.
KARL: Yeah, I am too.
MARY: Divine love has no ego. There's no "I-me-mine."
MONIKA: Who is there to define it? You're defining it!
KARL: Who needs that definition?
MARY: I don't know.
KARL: You still want to land on something. That's all.
MARY: Love is not for the faint-hearted or the weak, that's all there is to it. It
has nothing to do with selfishness. I think, maybe, I don't know, there might be
some laughter here coming from a place of weakness and misunderstanding.

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 January 15, 2004
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MONIKA: Oh, that's enough. You call us weak and you're the strong one?
[group laughs]
MARY: No!
KARL: You make war here and now.
MARY: Isn't this knowing at all?
KARL: Listen, you are fighting. For what are you fighting?
LIZ: For a concept.
GEORG: For "love"!
MARY: No, real peace—
KARL: What is this "real peace" you are fighting for?
MONIKA: Peace is an experience, not a blah, blah, blah!
KARL: Even Bush would say, "I am fighting for real peace and real freedom."
MARY: No!
KARL: [teasing] Yeah, you're American, I know! [group laughs] You want to
bring that idea even to India.
MARY: Obviously, he's not! Bush is bullshit.
KARL: Bush is bullshit? I love Bush! [group laughs] What kind of divine love
says, "Bush is bullshit"?
MARY: You know what I mean.
KARL: What kind of "divine love" are you talking about?
MARY: That has nothing to do with it. Divine love is related to truth.
KARL: You're talking about apartheid. You are so apart! That is an "ab-heart."
MARY: I can't understand. I'm not understanding.
KARL: Talking about the divine love and then Bush is bullshit.
MARY: Divine love has nothing to do with Bush!!
KARL: Okay, forget it.
LIZ: Bush is fighting for freedom which translates to "oil."
KARL: [indicating Mary] Yeah, she wants to be in an oily situation. It's like the
divine love is a mechanic and you go to make an oil change.

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BERTA: Cars can run on water, and Bush is killing all these people.
FRANCESCO: Why not?
GROUP: Francesco?!
FRANCESCO: It's a part of the joke. Why do you like Bush?
KARL: I don't know.
FRANCESCO: I like him too. He tries to do what he thinks is good.
KARL: I like Bin Laden too. [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: Me too. Why not? It's not a movie. It's not inside a movie. It's
consciousness, is it not? Bush is coming from another way.
KARL: It's like when the towers came down, Allah came as Bin Laden. "There
cannot be two!" and then Boom!
FRANCESCO: Just this.
KARL: Consciousness has fun, I tell you. To make it really like this a big event,
on eleven September, there was Allah, the only one, saying, "I am the only God,
there can be no two. There is no money too; there is no many too. There is no
many at all. I have to show something. There is only one—Allah—the great
one!" Bomb!!
Divine love—Bomb! It all comes out of that divine love—Bomb! God himself
makes sure there is no second one—Bomb! [group laughs]
MARY: I thought Ramana Maharshi was divine love.
GROUP: Oh, no!
MARY: Why? I don't understand. Help me to understand. What is there to
understand?
THERESE: Get the CD! [group laughs]
MARY: [laughing] All right, I'll get the CD.

No place to land
ROSA: May I change the subject?
GROUP: Hooray! Bravo!
KARL: Thank you.

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 January 15, 2004
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ROSA: I don't know—it's the first time I'm here—you are talking about the
Self?
KARL: As an idea, a pointer. But the Self doesn't know any Self. There is only
"Selflessness," you may call it, "lovelessness," "existencelessness." I am
pointing to that "idea-lessness," where all the icons—of divinity, of God—are
gone. This Godlessness I'm talking about. You are That which is God, but God
doesn't know any God, no second or whatever. That which cannot be talked
about or defined—that's what I'm talking about.
This paradox cannot be solved. We talk about something that cannot be talked
about. So we can talk about it, but it makes no difference. It's just pointing out
that it makes no difference whether you talk or not.
For That which you are, it never makes any difference, whatever you say,
whatever you define or don't define. There is nothing more or less. There is no
quantity in it, of whatever idea of "divine" or anything. All this is gone. This is
freedom which has no idea about freedom.
ROSA: Emptiness?
KARL: Not even emptiness. Even emptiness is too much. This is That which is
emptiness, and this is That which is fullness, and this is That which is whatever
you name, but it has no name.
ROSA: So there is also no center.
KARL: No. There is no avatara center, where you can go and buy an avatar
idea. Whatever idea, it is not.
LIZ: Nothing to hold onto.
KARL: Even that is too much. Even nothing is too much. Everything is too less.
GEORG: Return to center. Address unknown.
KARL: Love letters. "Return to sender. Address unknown." Concepts come up
and then "whoosh." That's all.
ROSA: That's your job.
KARL: Yeah, it's like harvest. Cutting ideas. Head-chopping.
A WOMAN: Pongal [Indian Harvest Holiday].
KARL: Today is Pongal. Kali day. Chopping heads. Core-splitting. Kopf (head)-
splitting. Bone splitting. All the bones have to be spit out.

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 Eight Days in Tiruvannamalai
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KLARA: Karl, I see you are in a form and you are talking with yourself, and
you are making for me quite a funny impression. I am thinking, "Do I want to go
in that direction?"
KARL: For sure not! [group laughs] Better don't. You will not arrive. There will
never be any arrival.
KLARA: So absolutely nothing! There is not even nothing. It's a game with
words, I know.
KARL: You are on a journey that never started and will never end. There is no
place to land for that plane you are. And there's no pilot.
KLARA: God!
KARL: You're still looking for the pilot, but there is none. It's auto-pilot. There's
no landing place, no airport.
LIZ: What a nightmare!
KARL: You're a nightmare, whether you like it or not. Whatever dream you take
as real becomes a nightmare. So whatever nice dream of love, or anything, is a
nightmare. It's all dreaming. It makes you a dreamer. As long as there's a
dreamer, there's a nightmare. A dreamer will always dream again another dream.
A nice dream will always go back to an ugly dream. Happy dream, unhappy
dream, whatever.
TOMAS: It even doesn't make sense to realize that one is a complete failure. It
doesn't make any difference.
KARL: That's an absolute failure. You will fail anyway.
MARY: So in this, love has no purpose. So this fits.
KARL: Whatever. Make it. Keep it. Sit on it. Take it home.
MARY: Divine love—
[Mary keeps trying to make her point, but Karl doesn't pause.]
KARL: Sit it out. Do whatever you like. Falala. No one cares.
MARY: It should be given its proper place!
KARL: Yeah, you decide what is proper and what is not. Yeah, yeah, forget it.
Thank you very much.
MARY: Divine love has no purpose, right?
KARL: Thank you very much for your love.

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 January 15, 2004
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MARY: No, I don't have that love, that purposeless love. But that's love.
KARL: Ah, thank you very much.
ROSA: You are breaking her heart, right now.
MARY: [laughing] That's okay.
ROSA: That's your job.
KARL: That's my job. I am a heartbreaker.
FRANCESCO: Hey!
KARL: The absolute playboy.
A MAN: And we are in the "Heartbreak Hotel." [group laughs]
KARL: Yeah, the "Heartbreak Hotel" on the funny hill of Arunachala! Heart
itself.
Another MAN: Yesterday, you said that you make compost.
KARL: Yeah, everything together and then compost and then what comes out?
Lotus. Out of compost, divine lotus. I have the divine Lokus?
THERESE: Yeah, Lokus is "toilet" in German.
KARL: That's right.
THERESE: Your language is something! [group laughs]
KARL: I tell you!
THERESE: [teasing] And how come the Germans are so serious this morning?!
[group laughs]
KARL: [laughing] Don't ask me!
THERESE: What went wrong? [group laughs]
KARL: Am I not funny enough for you?
THERESE: You are the only one!
KARL: Oh, throwing stones! [group laughs]
MARY: Maybe this is a sign you're really free.
KARL: Of what?
MARY: Of your German birth. Because you're so funny.
KARL: I have no idea what you're saying.

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 Eight Days in Tiruvannamalai
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MARY: [laughing] You're really free! Okay, I'll shut up.
KARL: Now she really wants to kill me. Offending me all the time. Whatever
you call me, you offend me.
ROSA: [teasing] "German!" [group laughs]
KARL: "Oh, I have to accept that I'm a germ!"
MATTIAS: I can help you with that.
KARL: Germs are all over the place. There are more germs than people.
[indicating an Australian man] He is really lucky; there are only seventeen
million Australians.
Australian MAN: Twenty million.
KARL: Oh, twenty. In the early eighties, there were only fifteen.
MAN: The government is thinking about giving couples five thousand dollars to
have a child.
KARL: Same in Germany.
MAN: We're not into immigration.
KARL: The Germans have the same fear that they will die out. Eighty million
Germans are now having to —! [group laughs]
MONIKA: Are you doing your bit, Karl?
KARL: Now in Germany, if you don't have children, you have to pay more tax.
Like an extra tax for having no children. A single tax. They really make you.
Germany becomes a pimp that makes you have sex. You have to have sex now.
[group laughs]
MATTIAS: A non-Brahmachari country.
KARL: India was the same. It's a paradox. Twenty years ago, you were put into
prison for abortion, years of imprisonment for abortion. But a few years ago,
they changed it, and you got ten thousand rupees for abortion. There was one
day you'd be imprisoned, and the next day you'd get ten thousand rupees for the
same thing.
GEORG: Only a transistor radio, Karl. It's not worth that much.
KARL: That's like, one day can totally change everything.
LIZ: One concept to the next concept.

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 January 15, 2004
__________
KARL: This is actually consciousness. Unpredictable. It's really a bitch. You
never know when it bites you. You may cuddle with a little puppy for a while.
"My puppy, my puppy of acceptance." But then, you never know. Pow! It's
beautiful.

You will never reach love

Australian MAN: Karl, I have a question. It's about the Bodhisattva thing. I've
never had any conscious experience of it in this life. But some energy to do with
it is coming up lately.
KARL: This is your idea of a Bodhisattva.
MAN: It's not even an idea, but that's all I can relate it to. I don't know what it is.
I'm just wording it out in my head. But it's not even a word. I haven't even put
words to it. There was a sense that it was a totally ridiculous idea, a ridiculous
concept, for quite a few years. I was really damning it. But somehow, some
sense, some energy arises in the body, a certain sense of selflessness, with an
energy to do with it. I don't know. I could be right off the mark, but somehow, I
sort of tie it back into that. I don't know anything about it, or whether you know.
KARL: Ramana talked about that Selflessness that is simply then the
helplessness. And then, out of that, is like a "what is this?" You just do out of
Selflessness what has to be done. Without questioning it. This is not someone
doing it, or whatever. This is like you realize yourself in doing it.
MAN: Even the idea of wanting moksha, even the idea of not coming back, not
having rebirth, is just such a selfish idea.
KARL: Yeah. All that is gone in That. Because then no one ever came or will
go. That's all I talk about—that "no way out." This, whatever you experience
here, is That which you are, one aspect of it, and you cannot leave what you are.
This is as infinite as you are. That realization of what you are is as infinite as
you are. This is moksha—to see that there is only Self. Only That is what you
are. And there is no way out of it.
This is a total full stop. There is not even moksha anymore. That is moksha, that
freedom that there is no second, there is no way out of you being what is. There
will never be any reaching anything, such as an exit or love or whatever. There
is no love for you. Not even that. Whatever you have an idea of is simply gone.
There is no way out of it.

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 Eight Days in Tiruvannamalai
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All the ideas are made of the idea of an advantage, to find a way out. By simply
totally stopping, and with that seeing that there is no such thing as a way out for
you to be what you are, you see That is what is.
You are this energy, this Selflessness, inside. One may call it, like she's been
calling it, defining it as "love." But there is no love. There is simply that
absolute "no way out." It doesn't know any love or freedom or anything, because
it is a total absence of any way out of what you are. This is what is called
"peace," this immense peace, but this peace was always there. It was never gone.
This is what is called "peace of mind," but there is no mind anymore. Whatever
is, is Self. Whatever is. Whatever energy, vibration, whatever, is That which is
what you are.
There is no way out of it because there is no advantage in the next moment of
controlling anything. Whatever you can control is what you are, so it makes no
sense to try to control. This senselessness of doing or not doing, because it
makes no advantage, that is compassion. What you are talking about is
compassion. That is compassion when there is no one left to have compassion or
pity or anything. Pity is only there because you are longing for a way out. Then
you pity yourself and you see others who do. But when there is no second
anymore, you don't know.
This is so natural. It's nothing special. It's not a "divine love," or anything. It's
your nature, and this nature was never gone. What to do with it? Just have
another coffee, that's all. Cheers! [drinks from his bottle of juice]
MAN: Cheers!
KARL: By the way, whatever comes out here, like "divine," all these special,
apart things, they have nothing to do with it. You are totally, absolutely
independent of all that.

Here, now, it's so extreme because you are that

extreme, absolute existence
JUAN: Karl? "I am" in the world is loneliness.
KARL: Any idea of existence is loneliness.
JUAN: "I am" is lonely too?
KARL: It's a potential of loneliness.
JUAN: What we consider loneliness, or only when you're in the world?

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 January 15, 2004
__________
KARL: Yeah, but what is this consciousness? Consciousness is awareness, pure
"I"-awareness. Then the "I am"-ness is space, and "I am so"-ness is one aspect of
that.
JUAN: But the "I" is lonely too?
KARL: That already is loneliness. Out of that loneliness comes "I am"-ness and
then "I am so"-ness, defining itself. The "I," which is this [Karl holds up his
thumb to symbolize this state of awareness], then "I am" [holds up thumb and
index finger], what God called, "I am that I am," pointing to That which is the
Heart of '"I am," which is this [pulls his fingers in, holding up just his fist],
Heart itself, which is Self itself.
JUAN: That's not lonely.
KARL: There is no loneliness in it, because there is no one who could be lonely.
JUAN: When manifestation arises—
KARL: Already this [holds up his thumb]. When this "I" arises, as a notion of
existence, there is loneliness.
JUAN: But does it arise out of loneliness? Because otherwise, it wouldn't arise, I
guess.
KARL: It wouldn't? It did arise, not because of something, but without any
cause. There is no "I want to arise." There is nothing. There's a potential only, of
absolute existence as it was arising. But it never was arising. Even that has no
beginning and end.
There is no beginning and end of "I"-awareness, there is no beginning and end
of "I am"-ness, and there is no beginning and end of "I am so"-ness. Even that
world that is here, now, is as infinite as That which is Heart. All that trinity is an
absolute manifestation of That which is Heart. And so the manifestation is as
infinite as that infinite Heart. Whatever is, is Heart. Nothing is there but Heart.
But That which is Heart doesn't know Heart and would never define it as such
and such and such. All this is a dream-like definition. That which is dreaming,
the absolute dreamer, as what is Heart, cannot be dreamt of, cannot be imagined.
It cannot be defined by any big or beautiful names. They all don't fit. That which
is beauty itself doesn't know any beauty.
For That which is knowledge itself, to be That which you are, there is absolutely
not knowing what you are and what you are not. So there is an absolute absence
of one who knows or doesn't know. There's even the absence of an absence.

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This you cannot become by anything, as you are That already. Nothing is more
natural than That, to be That which is Heart. But any definition whatever,
whatever you say about it, is framing it.
JUAN: So the whole struggle is to get rid of loneliness, I guess?
KARL: No, in the total confrontation with that loneliness—being that—you sink
into That which is Heart. In this absolute confrontation, there is seeing that there
is no second and nothing will ever give you what you are. Becoming that
awareness itself, which becomes aware of being lonely, in that absolute
loneliness, you sink into That which is Heart, and you are That which is Heart.
In that absolute confrontation with what you are, by being absolutely loneliness
itself, out of that "alone," you become "all one."
This is like a total transformation. In that extreme of loneliness, there is no one
lonely anymore. In that extreme of loneliness, no one can remain as separate, as
you become That which is loneliness. But loneliness itself doesn't know
loneliness.
[pointing to Mary] She is talking about being extreme love, but by being
extreme love, you don't know love anymore. It's all concepts. Don't listen to it.
Nothing can make you what you are. Even extreme concepts are concepts.
Here, now, it's so extreme because you are that extreme, absolute existence. You
cannot lose it. You are it, and you can never leave it. By whatever extreme, you
can never become it. It cannot get more extreme than it is here and now. This is
extreme realization of That which is the extreme Self!
[Mary screams with laughter. The rest of the group is silent.]
AIKO: I can understand her. I have the same problem with words. I am in love
with "love." And we don't want to leave it because it is so beautiful.
KARL: Yeah, it's a beautiful prison.
AIKO: It's a trap.
KARL: That oneness is such a beautiful trap. I am here to point to that trap you
are in. You are trapped in that beauty, in that idea of "beauty." But this is a
temporary trap. You will drop out of it again. Don't worry. [group laughs]
This temporary heaven is hell. You have to see heaven as hell. So don't worry.
Heaven will be gone and hell will be back.
LIZ: The opposite of love is hate. It comes, it goes, it comes, it goes. You do
drop out of the illusion.
AIKO: Yeah, but you can nourish it. Endlessly.

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 January 15, 2004
__________
KARL: By effort, you can stay with it a bit longer. If you pay a bit more
attention to that oneness, you can stay a bit longer.
MARY: That's not what I was saying, by the way.
KARL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You never said anything.
MARY: Okay, that's true.
THERESE: It seems like we try to make a difference between "loneliness" and
"aloneness." Loneliness has suffering in it, and aloneness is a place where—
KARL: You make aloneness "all one." There is no one alone anymore. There is
no loneliness. Whatever. It's all blah, blah, blah. Just forget it. Forget it and be
happy.
That's why everyone is pointing to the deep sleep state, because in it, there is no
such thing as "divine love," or any idea of whatever. But you still say, "Ah,
wonderful," even though you don't know what is so wonderful. There is a total
absence of an absence of "me," of one who defines anything. Even to call it
"deep sleep" is a definition, but in deep sleep, there is no definition of deep
sleep.
So be That which is in deep sleep as That which is here, now—Absolute.
Absolute from any idea of "to be" or "not to be," in spite of knowing or not
knowing, in spite of defining yourself or not defining yourself, you are. Never
because. So be That, here, now, what you are in deep sleep, absolutely
independent of any idea of existence or non-existence.
SOFIA: But Ramana said that it is beyond the deep sleep.
KARL: Yes, but deep sleep is already not so bad. [group laughs]
MARY: So, is that a key?
KARL: Pointer! They call it "pointer," but no pointer can make you what you
are. That's another pointer. [group laughs] Forget Ramana. I don't want to hear
anything about Ramana anymore. Here and now. And no Ali Baba.
MARY: Okay, how about an image?
KARL: What image?
MARY: The Kaaba, the Temple of Truth. You don't like the word truth. What
word can I use? There was the Kaaba, Ramana said, others have said, and there's
infinite ways of coming to this one Kaaba, infinite, from infinite directions.
KARL: What an idea, that you can go there.
MARY: But there's only one way in.

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 Eight Days in Tiruvannamalai
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KARL: What way in? No way in.
MONIKA: The dirtiest thought on earth.
MARY: There's only one way in.
KARL: No way in. There's only one way out—no way out.
MARY: Okay. So that's the ultimate and last concept.
KARL: Ultimate? There's no ultimate.
MARY: [starting to laugh] It's too much!
KARL: "Ulti-mate." The ultimate mate? The ultimate love. [sings] "My soul
mate. I met my soul mate — in heaven —"
[Mary is giggling more and more. Others are noticing. Then she cracks up
laughing. The whole group erupts with laughter.]
KARL: She went through it.
GROUP: She went through it! She is finished! She got it. [laughter and sighs of
relief]
KARL: The devil is in love with his own grandmother.
[Mary continues to laugh.]

Erasing the questioner

VICKI: I have a question. From this [holds up fist], comes this [thumb up], and
then this [fingers up]?
KARL: You never left this [holds up fist]. That's the point. This [thumb up] is
already a phantom dream. The dreamer is "I" [thumb], "am" [thumb and index
finger up], "dreaming" [thumb, index, and middle fingers up]. It's all boom,
boom, boom [thumb and fingers in and out, in and out].
You never went from there [fist]. You never went to there [thumb], there [thumb
and index finger], or there [thumb, index, and middle fingers]. All this is dream-
like. You never left That which is home [fist], because you are home itself. You
cannot leave home, because there is no one at home. This [thumb] is the first
tenant, "I." Out of that tenant, come tendencies.
VICKI: So all this [wiggles fingers] is this [fist]?

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 January 15, 2004
__________
KARL: All is this [fist]. You are the absolute dreamer who dreams a dreamer.
This is the dream of a dreamer. Already a dreamer is a dream, but you are that
absolute Heart.
The dreamer, as "I," comes out of that Absolute, as a dream already. Part of the
dream is "I," then out of that comes "I am"-ness, as consciousness, as the
Creator. And out of that Creator comes all that you can create. All three, this
trinity of Father, Holy Spirit, and Son, is all a dream. Only Heart is.
Even Jesus was pointing on the cross to that Heart of existence. When he was
crossed on that, and he said, "Father, why have you forsaken me?", he was
pointing out that not even the Father can help you, as you are being crossed on
that existence itself. There is no father who can help you. That Godlessness,
which is Heart itself, doesn't know any Heart. No one can help That which you
are.
The beauty of it is that you never needed any help. In essence, you are all of
this—you are God the Father, that first idea of "awareness," Source, that
"Father" idea; you are that "I am" as Holy Spirit; and you are that "I am so"-ness
as Son, as Jesus. You are all this, in essence, as you are the I of the "I," the I am
of the "I-am," and the I am so of the "I am so." You are always That which is
existence itself, what is Heart of whatever is and is not.
In this sense, you are That which is emptiness and you are That which is
fullness. But you are not emptiness and you are not fullness. So be That, as you
cannot not be it. By whatever you try, you cannot leave what you are. There is
no advantage to be here, there, or there, and no disadvantage.
Whatever idea of advantage, or whoever tells you this is like "awareness" or
something special, whenever you make a landing place, you are separating
yourself from something else, from That which is separation. Whenever you
make a landing place, you separate from That. By making emptiness what you
are, you separate yourself from fullness. Whatever you define, whatever
"divine" idea you have, is separation. But you cannot separate yourself.
NATARAJAN: Why do people say the process of Self-inquiry works when we
know the right answer in advance? It's so confusing for my mind.
KARL: For the mind, everything is confusing. Because it is confusion.
NATARAJAN: When I hear of Self-inquiry, it's supposed to be this innocent
search into yourself, looking at your thoughts, asking "Who are you?" What's
the point, when we know the answer?
KARL: But this is a senseless question. You can only look for something that
you know. Otherwise, you wouldn't look for it. You can only not know because

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 Eight Days in Tiruvannamalai
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you know it. You can only look for something because you already know what
you're looking for. Otherwise, you wouldn't look for it.
NATARAJAN: This I couldn't do.
KARL: The moment that you get that, you are not there anymore.
NATARAJAN: So how does the Self-inquiry work?
KARL: It works like this.
NATARAJAN: I don't understand. I feel very stupid.
KARL: Yeah, in that absolute non-understanding, you understand. In that
absolute stupidity, in that absolute darkness, in that absolute absence of light, of
knowing or not knowing, you know. As you see in that split second, in spite of
knowing or not knowing, you are. Never because. In spite of stupidity, in spite
of ignorance, in spite of whatever relative knowledge or understanding or
insight, whatever you can name, you are—never because.
This is what "Who am I?" is always pointing to, that mystery, that "in spite."
Questioning the questioner all the time with that "Who am I?" and getting no
answer, never ever, it becomes an answerlessness. And in the answerlessness,
the questioner maybe dries out, gets annihilated. It's a nice concept.
This was the way of Ramana—"Who am I?" In that question, you burn out,
because in that question, there is no history. When there is absolutely no answer
to that question, you cannot make a history of an answer. You cannot make
something if you cannot experience a history. You cannot experience the answer
of that question mark, that mystery, which is always after "Who am I?" That
"Who am I?" is always there. So there is no time and even non-time—there's the
total absence of an idea which comes by an answer. No answer can it give you,
because there is no answer. This absolute absence of any answer erases the
questioner.
NATARAJAN: So it's an unanswerable question, like a koan.
KARL: It's a koan, an absolute koan.
NATARAJAN: I went through my mind. There was an answer, "I am the Self."
Then I start to imagine what the Self is.
KARL: Again it starts. Whatever you define. That's why I'm always hammering,
even divine love. All these answers mean nothing. They will simply make a
history out of it. Whatever answer you give, it's history. It's time-bound. It's
framed. Only that mystery, that total question mark, that absolute absence of
anything—

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 January 15, 2004
__________
Sometimes it sounds very beautiful, blah, blah, blah. But it's still blah, blah,
blah. Because only that absolute "no answer"—that's the only answer. This is
annihilating the questioner.
Twenty-four hours a day, three hundred sixty-five days a year, whatever second
there exists, this question should be That which you are. This question is
meditation itself—meditating about the meditator himself and not getting an
answer. And then you will see, there will be no expectation after a while. There
is nothing to expect.
In meditation, there is "I am" meditating about what is "I am," but without
expectation of an answer. Without that answer, there is only meditation but no
meditator. That is meditation. Everything else—whatever is doing something for
an answer, where there is expectation of getting something out if it—is not
meditation.
NATARAJAN: No need to close your eyes?
KARL: No. That's why I really like Buddhism. You have to open your eyes.
You have to see. You have to meditate about That, but not with any closed eyes.
You don't want to escape. You have to face That which is, not escape it with
closed eyes into some nice, cozy oneness, or emptiness, or whatever. Face it!
This is what you are.
You have to see the form and the non-form in the same moment. You see that
That which is form is formless and you are That which is seeing that form—you
are the Source of both. You are emptiness and fullness, or That which is form
and non-form, as both are there as what you are, space-like and That which isn't
even form. But you are not form and you are not even space.
Whatever you define, you cannot find. It's always like this. "Who am I?" is like
"Who is seeing?" You cannot find it. There is nothing. There is no one to find.
In that not finding yourself, you find that you cannot be found in anything
anywhere anytime. So, in absolutely not finding yourself, you rest.
But this is not like a place you land. This is absolute not knowing. This is the
total freedom of not knowing, not of some definition of whatever "divine
tralalala." [group laughs] "Thank God no one knows that my name is
Rumplestiltskin."
ANNA: When you speak about infinite realization, is this a dreaming
realization?
KARL: Whatever you can realize is a dream.
ANNA: And I am a part of that dream?

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 Eight Days in Tiruvannamalai
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KARL: That is realization—that whatever you can realize is a dream. That
which is realizing itself, you can never realize. Whatever you can realize is not
what you are. Sounds good, huh?
ANNA: Very good. [group laughs]
KARL: So there is no ending to it. That Self-inquiry of that consciousness is
infinite. That "I am" meditating about That which is "I am" is the realization of
what you are, and it will never stop because it never started. So you cannot wait
for anything to come, because there will be nothing that will ever come for That
which you are. There will never be an answer for that question "Who am I?"
But the "Who am I?" will still be there, as "I am who?" or "Who am I?" These
are two directions, and they will always vary. One says, "I am who?" and the
other says, "Who am I?" "I am who?" "Who am I?" This is infinite. This is the
realization of what you are, coming out of that starting to dream.
Waking up to awareness, the dream starts. Out of "I" comes "I am who?" and
then, in one moment in time, comes "Who am I?" That's all. The spider wakes
up to awareness, spins a network of the universe, and then withdraws it again.
But it never left Heart. All is Heart, as Heart is what you are. This you cannot
leave. There is nothing to leave. All that is, is what you are. It is called
"immense peace," and it is as solid as solid can be, because it is unmovable. It's
in spite of whatever you know or don't know. In spite of whatever comes and
goes, in spite of any idea or no idea, you are. Hallelujah.
The beauty of this is you don't have to like yourself to be yourself. You don't
even have to love yourself to be yourself. Imagine! You may even hate yourself.
It makes no difference. Imagine! It makes no difference. You may be even hated
by yourself, by another self. We all have to sit for a while. Don't worry. It's a sit-
in. Ha.
Some more questions? No? Okay. Thank you very much.
A WOMAN: May I just make an announcement? In case anyone doesn't know,
you may order satsang recordings on CD from me.
GEORG: Wrong day! [group laughs]

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January 16, 2004: Without a second,
there is freedom; or, the end of "free
will"

The directionlessness of Self

KARL: Hallo!
BERTA: Karl, I brought some friends, so make a good impression. [group
laughs]
FRANCESCO: Please!
KARL: She's warning me, if I don't do it, she'll beat me up again. [group laughs]
"How dare you not be good today! Better be good today!" Otherwise, I cannot
show my face again in Amsterdam!
BERTA: Ya!
KARL: That's really asking for something! Who knows? Come in! Come in,
Brazil! Come in, then you can look out. Merci Beaucoup. Danke schön. What
can I do for you?
MRS. ANGELINA: I have no idea!
KARL: Me neither, so we are in the same boat. I don't know how to help you,
and you don't know how to be helped. That sounds good.
ANNA: Karl, could I start with a question? Actually, many times I have
wondered, whether being in the being—
KARL: Being in the being?
ANNA: Being in the being, is it so, that that will also have an influence or an
effect or something like that on the personal structure of the normal person?
KARL: No, it cannot, because there is no person anymore. Never was.
ANNA: You know what I mean.
KARL: I know what you mean. There was a structure before, but there was no
person. That's all. What can change then?
ANNA: Not change, but sort of influence, sort of effect, because it's interrelated.

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KARL: There is no cause and interrelation between That which is the essence of
what you are and That which is realization of it. You cannot make an influence.
It has no cause and effect. It may change something, but not because of that.
Whoever said, "Because of this, something changed"—it was not that.
ANNA: But it's also not an automatic—
KARL: Side-effect?
ANNA: Side-effect, yeah.
KARL: Of a disease? The enlightenment disease? And you have side-effects?
That is what enlightenment is, really, that awakening from identified
consciousness to non-identified consciousness. Out of this you can make side-
effects, out of that identified consciousness as a person then becoming cosmic
consciousness. Then you can say there are energetic changes and other things to
talk about.
That you can talk about, but not about That, because That is in spite of whatever,
never because. But whatever is because of something you have done, sadhana,
Self-inquiry, or whatever, and you go from identification to non-identification,
maybe, from separation to oneness, all that you can go to—about that you can
talk and make side-effects.
ANNA: But the manifestation of the form as such, as we are all, in a sense, is it
not, let me say, sort of automatically manipulated?
KARL: Automatically manipulated? [group laughs] How can there be an
automatic manipulation? I have no idea what it means.
ANNA: Actually, basically, not.
KARL: Only when it's not automatic, there's manipulation. When it's automatic,
then there's no manipulation. It doesn't fit together.
ANNA: Then let's say "natural."
KARL: But when it's natural, there is no manipulation either. When it's natural,
everything is natural, so nothing gets manipulated by anything. You cannot put
these two together.
"Manipulation" is a concept coming out that "me-controller" idea of an
advantage, and then you have the idea that you take everything as your doing.
But these are ideas. Nature never manipulates nature, because there are not two.
It needs two for manipulation.

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But as there is only one nature, it cannot manipulate itself. So it stops. When
there is only consciousness, there is the end of manipulation. There is no side-
effect anymore. There is no influence whatever from one to the other.
ANNA: I just see, it's just a thing like seeing the manifestations and seeing the
absolute consciousness. They are not two, I know that, but it's a sort of
business—that is that, and this is this.
KARL: That's your concept.
ANNA: It's another concept. Yeah.
KARL: Consciousness in whatever form or shape is still consciousness, and
consciousness that is formless is still consciousness. Pure consciousness,
awareness, is simply that trinity of "I"-awareness, "I am"-ness as formless, and
"I am so"-ness as form. This all is consciousness, which is the realization of
That which is Self.
So you cannot say there is any manipulation in the whole game. There is not
even an interrelation, in a way, because there is nothing relating to something
else. Consciousness is simply as solid as solid can be.
ANNA: But if you take the spider and the web, so this is actually the same, and
the web can be done in such and such a way.
KARL: But there is no one who decides it. It's a directionlessness of Self.
There's a freedom of direction, there's a freedom of will, so you may say it's a
natural spinning. But there is no manipulation in anything, as there is no
direction in anything. There is no will at all, not even God's will.
ANNA: It just happens, just like that.
KARL: It is as it is. But not because of anyone who wants anything. You cannot
want what you want, because wanting comes out of that mystery which has no
direction. You may say that the totality of that moment is dictating the next
moment, and moment by moment is dictated by that totality. But not by any
wish or by any seeing what to do. There is no concept of how it has to be. It
simply realizes itself, moment by moment, not knowing why. There is no "why"
in it.
ANNA: And one can't even say "influence."
KARL: No.
ANNA: Sort of conscious unconscious influence.
KARL: You may say there's a karmic consciousness, like an action-reaction
chain, that you can see. When there is an action, there's a reaction. But That

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which is acting and That which is reacting are no different. And there is no
intention in action, and there is no reaction in reaction. There is meditation of "I
am"-ness as consciousness meditating. This is like realization of That which is
Self. But there is no intention in anything.
All this is Self-experience or Self-realization; there is nothing that is not. The
Self cannot decide how to realize. That helplessness is what is your nature. You
are in a total helplessness or hopelessness. That Selflessness, which has no
direction, can never decide what comes next.
ANNA: So it's just remaining in the helplessness and that's all.
KARL: Yes. Simply see that whatever is, is already there. Nothing comes and
nothing goes. When nothing comes and nothing goes, when there is no birth and
death, whatever comes and goes is not coming and not going. So then who is
there who has to control something that's not even there?
Maybe here, now, the only thing that can die is the idea of "birth"—which
includes ideas of coming and going, of dying, of mortality and immortality, of
infinite and finite—these all die at that split second that you see that nothing is
ever born, so nothing will ever die.
But no one can take that. Because in that split second, you are gone. That person
is living out of that idea that it was born and may die. But in that split second,
you see that nothing has ever happened to what you are, or will happen, and you
see that you are not born so there is no death for you. Because existence never
comes and never goes. What then? That's Zen. No, Zazen.
MATTIAS: Is there a certain order, although there is no intention, for dropping
these three—the "I," the "I am," and the "I am so-and-so"— or can it happen
altogether—gone?
KARL: Every night they drop together.
MATTIAS: But you are saying that, first there is this personal consciousness
[holds up thumb, index, and middle fingers], or consciousness as an imagined
person, and then there is the universal consciousness [holds up thumb and index
finger], and then there is "I" [holds up thumb], and I thought this was happening
somehow before—
KARL: No, it's not dropping, actually. By "dropping," it is meant that you see
that there is nothing that can drop. So it drops in that seeing that there is nothing
that can drop. It needs something to be born that can drop, but as you see
nothing came and nothing will go, this is a total drop of it. That's the total drop
of all three of these. If you are talking about first dropping "I am so-and-so" and

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going to "I am," that's all in the realm of effort, sadhana, and that interaction of
consciousness.
MATTIAS: But there is no need, somehow, so that this recognition can happen?
KARL: Not out of need. It never comes out of need. There is no rule in it. It is
always unique. But I tell you again, every night it drops. You know it so well.
CHARLES: Even the awareness drops?
KARL: Yeah, of course. You cannot remember deep sleep. Awareness drops.
You go back to That which you are. It's a natural thing. As you fall into sleep,
you die into That which you are. Let die what can die, as it was never there, and
you go to that place that is your nature where nothing happens. Never. Everyone
knows it so well. This is nothing new I tell you here. Every night you go to That
which is your nature.
The only thing that is maybe false is that, when you wake up, you go to that
which wakes up. You love what wakes up, and then you get involved in that, so
you are born. Every morning, you give birth to that idea that you are born again.
In deep sleep, there is no one left who has any idea of being born or not born.
There's simply no question.
But every morning you take that idea, that crazy idea that you are born, again as
real. So the joke starts again every morning! And then the whole day, you want
to get out of it! [group laughs]
MATTIAS: Is it true that something really extreme has to happen in order to
recognize it?
KARL: For sure not.
MATTIAS: Nothing? No death experience, nothing terrifying?
KARL: All that belongs to the realm of moving from "I am so"-ness to "I am"-
ness and back. But this comes and goes. This ping pong is always there. From
identification to non-identification, there are extreme experiences—of love, of
diving into the whatever. "The cosmic whatever went into me and was
exploding into the star system! And then I came back. I found the pearl and now
I want to share it!" [group laughs]
MATTIAS: I don't mean that. I mean in an extreme situation, like an accident or
as you were reporting in your book.
KARL: But every night you have this accident. Don't worry. It's an extreme
accident that everything drops in front of you, and you are again without any
glue to whatever. In the morning, the glue wakes up again. You have a clue that
you exist. You have an idea of "existence." Then you are glued on that again. So

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you fall in love every morning with your existence. And at night, you fall out of
it.
So, as I always sit here and tell you, you cannot not fall in love with what you
are, as you are not different from what wakes up, what is in front of you. You
cannot not love what you are. You have to be, in spite of that lover and beloved,
what you are, not because some lover and beloved has to go.
It will always happen again. Every morning. Otherwise, there was Jesus, there
were so many sages, there was Buddha, all this—if it really would help to know
yourself, there would be nothing left! Huh? Isn't that it? So many selves sitting
here, and it didn't help! Still sitting here!
MATTIAS: I was wondering about this. So many sages in India for centuries
and centuries, and nothing happened.
KARL: Even in Europe, there were so many! Go to the churches and see the
statues of saints and holy people. But that's the beauty of it. It cannot be
controlled by any knowing or not knowing. This will go on forever [holds up
fingers and then folds them back into fist, over and over, to symbolize infinite
movement between states of consciousness]; there is no way out of it. As infinite
as you are as the Absolute, that is how infinite is realization. There is no
stopping it, because it never started. So what?!
CHARLES: [holding up his fingers and then making a fist] Is this again and
again?
KARL: There is not again and again. There is at once! There is a solid block of
realization. And nothing comes and goes.
CHARLES: Who sees that?
KARL: There is no seeing. You are That. There is no seeing in it. The seeing is
part of an aspect of that realization, but there is no seeing in it. There is simply,
absolutely being That. It's what is meant by I Am That. Finished.

What is Karl? You must be joking!

BERTA: Hey, but Karl, you also wake up in the morning.
KARL: No, no, no. That's not true. I never wake up, because I never went to
sleep.
BERTA: All right, I'm going to come watch you tonight! [group laughs]

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KARL: You will only see this body sleep, but you won't see Karl, as you don't
see Karl here. You only see a body image, that's all. An idea of an image. The
rest you have to speculate. You have to make a speculation—there is a Karl in
some whatever. What is Karl? A space-like entity? A cloud? An idea? What is
Karl? A body? Do you know who Karl is? Then you know me.
BERTA: Well, I see your body-mind structure.
KARL: Yeah, that you take as Karl. That's all
BERTA: You call it "Karl."
KARL: No, I am not calling it "Karl." I am calling it "Me-steak." [slaps his leg]
This is my steak. But I don't take it as a "mis-take." I'm not being mistaken to
take that steak as me, as what I am. It's there, so I enjoy it. It will be eaten up by
existence soon enough.
So nothing goes to sleep at night. There's simply the dropping of the "body"
idea, and then some "I am" idea, and then the awareness goes. And then there is
That which you are, without it, in spite of it. And then in the morning, it wakes
up again. Because you cannot not wake up.
KRISTOPH: So this means that you do not lose consciousness when you fall
asleep?
KARL: Even consciousness drops, because even consciousness is part of it.
KRISTOPH: I don't understand. You get unconscious?
KARL: No, there is no one who is unconscious. There is simply That which you
are without any experience of experience or non-experience. Both are gone.
KRISTOPH: But do you stay present?
KARL: There is no presence because That which you are has no presence. It
needs two for presence. It needs one experiencer for presence. No one stays in
anything. There is a total darkness, mystery, whatever; there is absolute non-
experience. There is no history. There is absolutely no time or non-time in all
that.
KRISTOPH: And this is all the time?
KARL: It's here, now. This is what I am.
KRISTOPH: Always?
KARL: There is no break. That's what I meant. It is never asleep and never
awake and nothing you can name.

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The sleeping, the waking, whatever you name, is in it, but it is never in
something else. It's a statelessness in which all the states appear. Itself, it has no
state. It's a false state, or statelessness, wherein all the "I," "I am," and "I am so-
and-so" states appear. All this is a realization of "I am so-and-so"—the state of
awareness, the state of "I am"-ness, and the state of "I am so"-ness. But they all
appear within that statelessness of Heart, which is whatever you cannot define in
any sense. With the first "I," with the first word, you create the whole thing
every morning.
KRISTOPH: And how did it happen that you came to that experience, to the true
state?
KARL: I never came to it.
KRISTOPH: You always were there?
KARL: I never lost it. It was always there in every moment of every experience.
As "I am so-and-so," as "I am"-oneness, even as "I"-awareness, I was still prior
to that. In spite of the light, I am. Not because.
KRISTOPH: Yeah, but how about earlier in your life, before—
KARL: It was never my life, so I cannot talk about it. There was the life of this
body, you mean. There is a moment-by-moment history of this body-mind
organism. Wonderful. There was a time, there's still a time. We can talk now
about it now. It needs the illusion of time to make that experience of me and
others. This body, other bodies, can appear only in that illusion, or that dream,
of time.
KRISTOPH: I'm trying to get it, but I don't.
KARL: I know what you mean, that I'm mean! [group laughs] If you were really
interested in that answer, you'd be more—
KRISTOPH: More insistent? But I don't think I can solve it with my mind, that I
can get it by my mind through discussion. I feel I need to dive into myself. At
some time, it was there, but I lost it or something, so it's not complete.
KARL: I wouldn't say it like this.
ANNA: Could we put it in terms of sahaja samadhi, which is a continuous state,
and nirvikalpa samadhi, which is a state that can come and go?
KARL: All the states, samadhis, are in spite of it. That statelessness, whatever is
Heart, is in spite of any ideas of samadhi, of fleeting states. Whatever you can
talk about are fleeting states. Even awareness is a fleeting state.
ROSA: Have you been conscious always of where you are?

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KARL: There was never anyone who was conscious, and there was never
anyone who was unconscious. So it's futile to talk about what is not there. What
to talk about? When there was never anyone who was unawakened, how can we
talk about anyone who is awakened? There's here and now no one who is more
or less than you.
ROSA: So this is a big joke.
KARL: This is the first joke, and out of that joke, you are joking. You must be
joking!
ROSA: That's great, because I was always very serious. [group laughs]
KARL: That is the real joke. That's why I say there is a split second with
absolutely no before or after. This [holds up his fist to symbolize Heart] is in
spite. There is no awakening. From what? There is simply no way out.
Absolutely no way out. But even that is not there. You just have another coffee,
because nothing has changed.
There is simply "Aha." Because That which is awareness, or That which is
perception itself, was always as pure as at that moment, because in that split
second, you go to eternal existence. Back to Adam and Eve, or whatever. And
you see, there was always that perception, pure as it was, in no sense. Always in
no sense. There are sensations coming and going, and whatever ideas, but that
was, is, as it was. There was no time and even non-time.
ROSA: So I am watching a movie now?
KARL: You are the movie!
ROSA: Yes, I am in it.
KARL: No, you are not in it. You are the movie. No one was ever in the movie.
ROSA: But you are now in my movie.
KARL: Ah, you are guilty that everyone is here! It's all your movie. We found
her. You only have to kill her, and everything will be fine. [group laughs] "My
movie!" If you want to get rid of the movie, kill her. Cross her. We found Jesus
again. Cross her.
ROSA: But I'm not going to suffer. [group laughs]
KARL: You will be nailed anyway.
ROSA: That's what you are doing now!
KARL: I'm nailing you on the cross of existence and telling you that you cannot
leave what you are, as you are that absolute existence. In horizontal time, in

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vertical time, and even in That which is the Heart of awareness, you cannot
leave what you are. So I am nailing you, here and now, again, as Jesus was
nailed.
ROSA: So I'm liberated?
KARL: That's liberation—being nailed on existence. The only way out of that
drama you are in is being the drama, as the drama doesn't know any drama.
ROSA: I like it.
KARL: Be it. Because if you don't enjoy yourself, there will be no other Self
who enjoys you.
ROSA: [laughing] There are many who don't enjoy me.
KARL: Many? Where? What many?
ROSA: Many in me.
KARL: Many in you. Many ideas of yourself. Many images of yourself. But you
are not an image.
ROSA: I'm getting rid of them with you.
KARL: Rid of the images? Nothing has to go for That. You simply become that
absolute Source from where all the images appear. But yourself, you're not an
image. That's why I'm pointing to that split second where you see that you
cannot imagine yourself. Whatever came out of an imaginative world, of
awareness, light, whatever experience, you are not.
THERESE: So what is all this work, like you find everywhere, the work on the
images?
KARL: You keep the images alive. That's called dharma-keeping.
THERESE: Again, it's Self-entertainment. But—
KARL: But, but, but—
THERESE: Just—
KARL: There is no just. There is no justice.
AIKO: But I think there is a lot of promise to come somewhere—
KARL: But this is fine. It's part of the joke. You have laugh about your joke.
Because you are the trap and you are stepping into your own trap of wanting to
gain something.

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You are the inventor of religion. Whatever religion there is, is because of you,
because you have the idea that some knowledge or whatever can add something
to your nature. You create all this religion, all that you can imagine. You are the
dharma-keeper himself. You are the inventor of the idea of "purity," so it makes
you dirty. You are the inventor of whatever "divine," so it makes you shit.
Whatever is, is because of you.
If you want to complain, you find the one! [group laughs] It's fun to complain
about yourself, what you have done. So what!
AIKO: [laughing] In no sense.
KARL: In no sense, yeah. So it's not innocent. It's in no sense.
THERESE: Nonsense!
KARL: It's total nonsense, even before nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Just take
one letter out.
Prior to guilt, you are absolutely guilty, so that takes the guilty one away.
Because no one can take that guilt of being absolutely responsible for That. Only
when you are That, there is no one who can be responsible. But no one can take
that responsibility of being the Source of whatever is and is not.
Hmm? Anyone here who can take it? I think that everyone here can take it
because, as That which you are, there is no problem to take it. But no person, no
idea, can take that responsibility. Is there any idea here left that can take it?
As what you are, nothing is more easy than to be what is. But as that which is an
image, you can never become That which is the Source of the image, you can
never become That which is the image. So no way to become what you are.

Heart is all there is

BERTA: If there is no way, then we are sitting here for nothing.
KARL: That's fine. Imagine if you would sit here for something?!
BERTA: But I like to have a goal, actually.
KARL: Yeah, you are a goal-keeper. I know. Without a goal, there would be no
Berta. Berta will fight for a goal as if for life.
BERTA: It's true.
KARL: Yeah, I tell you. That's the survival system of an image. Without that
image of a goal, the image cannot stay. It fears death; it fears existence. It's in an

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existential crisis, and out of that crisis, it has to have a goal, it has to have a
reference point, because without a reference point, it's simply not there. It
simply disappears. What a joke—the Almighty, which is Berta, fearing itself,
the goallessness.
BERTA: In Amsterdam, I was dying with no goal and I also didn't have the
energy to make a goal. And then in the end, I almost didn't have the energy to
walk. There was no point in anything.
KARL: Maybe you would be the first Bench Baba of Amsterdam! [group
laughs] Maybe you missed it, Berta, again!
BERTA: I think so.
KARL: Bench Baba was a holy man [in Tiruvannamalai] who simply lay on a
bench for fifty or sixty years, just counting "one, two, three." Total
senselessness. But he was a total pointer to That which you are. Many students
came from all over India just to see him counting "one, two, three." Like me.
[laughs] I'm always counting "one, two, three." [holds up thumb, index finger,
and then middle finger]
THERESE: "Karl Yoga"! [group laughs]
MATTIAS: But you added something. There's the three states and the
disappearance into the fist. So you have four—four states.
KARL: Does it make the hand different when it opens or it closes? It's still the
hand. It's still the Heart. The Heart opening to this [holds up thumb, index
finger, and then middle finger] is still the Heart. And closing in at night [closes
fist], it's still the Heart. You never lost your Heart. You cannot lose what you
are, as you are Heart itself.
So, even as "I am so-and-so," you never lost what you are in what is still the
Heart. So all is Heart. Whatever is, is Heart. You cannot lose what you are. At
night, you simply go back to the potential. And out of that potential, in the
morning, you wake up again to that realization, Self-experience, all the way.
You can only experience what you are, in your infinite aspects and forms, and
all is Heart, as Heart is all there is.
KLARA: What do you mean when you say "Heart"?
KARL: I mean what I mean! [group laughs]
KLARA: Yeah, what do you mean?
KARL: I'm not talking about the physical heart, or any spiritual heart, or any
heart. I'm talking about that Buddha-nature you are, which cannot be defined,
which is the essence of existence—whatever you call it, it is not. But That is

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what you are. You cannot give it a name, a form, a shape, an idea. Because
whatever you could say is an image. It cannot fit.
Whenever you define it, you're wanting to frame that Heart, but the Heart cannot
be framed. You cannot imprison Heart, because Heart is all there is. When there
is only Heart, there is no imprisonment for anything. So you cannot imprison it
by knowing it or by not knowing it or by whatever idea you can have about
Heart. You cannot frame it.
That is freedom itself. Freedom, realizing itself in whatever, is still freedom.
Freedom in the idea of being imprisoned is still freedom. Because freedom
imprisoned by freedom is still freedom. So Heart in Heart is still Heart.
So, as there is only Heart, and That which is freedom itself is Heart, freedom
means there is no second Heart. There is no second edition of existence. As you
exist, you cannot doubt, because even for doubting, you have to exist. This
existence, which is totally "in no sense," has no second. Without a second, there
is freedom. Without a second, you cannot control anything, not even yourself.
There must be two in order to have a controller and one who is controlled.
That is paradise. Paradise means there is no second to control. You cannot
control another one, and you cannot be controlled by anyone. So whatever
controls you is what you are. Then who cares if you are controlled by what you
are? So what? You cannot step out of the absolute control which is the
realization of what you are.
That helplessness is sitting here, talking about what you cannot talk about again
and again, for centuries, even ages. I have no idea how long this goes on
already. It will never stop. The Self never gets enough talking about the Self.
Never, ever will it be satisfied by talking. That is the beauty. You cannot satisfy
something that is satisfaction itself. It's so complete. You cannot make it more—
or less. So you can talk and talk and talk and sing and sing and sing, blah, blah,
blah, and it's totally irrelevant. That's beautiful, that joy!
KLARA: But why don't I feel that?
KARL: Why don't I?! There is no feeling. This is being it! It will be not your
feeling, that's all. You cannot put this feeling or experience in your pocket and
say, "my experience of existence." You cannot experience existence. You have
to exist. This you cannot own as an experience. It will never be your experience.
So you can hear and see now there is no "mine." It will never be my experience
as I cannot own existence. What an idea! Even the idea that there is my
consciousness—what an idea!—as if you could own consciousness! What
bullshit!

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AIKO: I feel flat! [group laughs]
KARL: Rolled over.
JUAN: Karl, the idea of "impersonal existence" is so frightening somehow.
KARL: For a person, yes, but not when you are That. There is nothing to be
feared. Jesus said that you shouldn't fear what you are. What an idea to fear what
you are?!
Jesus was saying that he's an absolute man, he's absolute consciousness, and he's
absolute awareness, as he's the Heart of existence, as he's existence itself. So
what to fear? But he's not awareness, he's not "I am," and he's not "I am so-and-
so"— as he is Heart in whatever circumstance. Heart is all there is. So what to
fear? Do you fear to be Heart?
JUAN: The personal fear is great.
KARL: It's too heart. Too hard. Too soft, maybe. You fear to be soft, too fragile,
because you have learned that you have to defend yourself, because there is a
second, there is a world, there is "me" and the world. "I have to defend myself."
So you make all that armor around you, build a fortress. "Don't touch me!" Then
even you want to be detached from everything. You make all the techniques and
meditation to be "de-touched." "Don't touch me!" [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: You can laugh!
KARL: But then there is one moment when you fall in love with whatever, a
woman or a man, and then the helplessness comes. "Oh, hoo, no!" Then you are
really in trouble. Because you see, you cannot not fall in love if this happens.
The total armor breaks down, falling in love that moment, and whatever you
have done to be detached—"oh, shit" again. [group laughs]
Many have that experience. First, dropping out of that identification, going to
the oneness, "I am not doing anything! I am detached! I, whatever! No one can
touch me anymore! I'm out of it. The game is over for me. Now, I'm out"—and
then, "Oh, no!"
FRANCESCO: I don't believe it. [group laughs]
KARL: Oh, the day before yesterday, I saw your eyes! [group laughs] He was
looking like this, "No, no, not again!"
THERESE: She must have felt it. She left. I don't see her.
KARL: She just came yesterday, just looked over the railing and then she went
again.
FRANCESCO: She was in my house last night. Do you believe this? No.

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KARL: Oh, sorry.
FRANCESCO: It's okay. [group laughs]
THERESE: So many times when I wake up, there's a feeling like I didn't sleep.
There are so many dreams. Suddenly, there is this attack of pictures.
KARL: Attack of the clones?
THERESE: So many dreams.
KARL: It's a nice title of a movie, Attack of the Clones. Every night, she has an
attack of the clones. You are cloning yourself, imagining yourself, and then you
get attacked back by echoes of your creation.
THERESE: I mean, when I wake up, I feel I could write movies, I tell you.
KARL: Yeah, why not? So what, then? Night circus? "Circus Thérèse!" Soon
they will tape your brain at night, the dreams, and make movies out of it.
Nightmares. Power movies. Love movies. Emotional movies. Devotional
movies. Look at it, it's all here. Out of that dream comes everything.
A WOMAN: So, the second you wake up, the dreams, they make themselves
real, the moment you wake up?
KARL: You may say the body is still in that; it's all part of that body. All those
images come out of that energy of "I am"-ness, or whatever formless body, that
energy which is sitting here. There's a memory effect, and there's echoes of
information and dreams and movies, echoes of the day, echoes of the night
dreams. It's all echoes.
WOMAN: It's still very much identifying with it.
KARL: What's wrong with identification? When there is no one who can be
identified, what's wrong with identification? Why do you feel you need to be
unidentified to what you are? Who needs that to change?
You become a person at the moment you want to be happy all the time, that's all.
But with that dream come experiences of happiness and unhappiness, of heaven
and hell. All is included in that total program of your imagination, because it all
comes in that package of polarities and the shadows between it, the shades and
whatever. But it's all you and all by you and you are the absolute Source of all
that. This is all That which is your realization, whatever it is.
And there is no way out of it. It makes no difference if you go to this state or
that state, that dimension or that understanding. As all the understanding and
non-understanding is because you are, and they are all there because you are
That which is the absolute Self.

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So what has to come and what has to change? There is no advantage in anything.
This person is only there because you have the idea of an advantage in
understanding or even knowing yourself, that there would be an advantage for
what you are.
This first advantage idea is simply an image, a phantom. Even the idea of
"consciousness" is promising you something that it cannot deliver. Even
consciousness cannot make you more happy than you are. It cannot give you
more knowledge, as you are That which is knowledge already. And there is this
consciousness promising you something more, or less, of a quantity of whatever,
promising you that if you just meditate enough, you will disappear and then you
will be happy. You have to go so that you can be happy!
A MAN: Yeah, that's a weird one, isn't it?
KARL: It's a nice problem. You never solve it. [group laughs] "Oh, if I only had
this blank mind! If I only controlled thoughts, I would be happy!"
ROSA: I have a blank mind often.
KARL: Every night you have a blank mind.
ROSA: [laughing] No, no, sometimes—
KARL: Is this Alzheimer's? [group laughs]
ROSA: Maybe something like that. So it's not dead.
KARL: No, you are not dead.
ROSA: [laughing] Not yet.
KARL: No, it's not the absence of something. There was this Wei Wu Wei that
was always making it really hard. "It has to be the absence of the presence of an
object, and even the absence of the absence of the presence of any object and
image of what you would call the only presence of That which is Self, but this
presence has no presence because there is no Self to experience that presence of
that presence of that omnipresence of that Self!" [group laughs] Sounds good,
huh?
ROSA: So it's not even neti-neti?
KARL: It's neti-neti-neti. [group laughs] It's actually no no. It's an absolute no to
no. You become a no-no.
ROSA: But then there is a yes.
KARL: Yeah, that's a yes. So it's an absolute yes to existence, and this is
acceptance. An absolute no no—an absolute no to no—and that's an absolute

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yes. And then you are That which is existence in an absolute acceptance, as that
yes is as absolute as a no-no. But as long as there is one who says "yes" or "no,"
you're in trouble. So no-no includes yes, but yes alone always has an opposite.
ROSA: So it's a yes to no-no?
KARL: It's a no-no. [group laughs] Has to become a no-no.
FRANCESCO: This is basic.
KARL: Nitty-gritty. A no-no. Then you are full on.
ROSA: But I can't say "I am no-no," because then I can fall into the trap.
KARL: As I said, you have to be the no-no. The absolute no-no, in the absolute
absence of that no-no. If you are that paradox, it's like the koan again. When you
are the koan, there is no koan anymore. But as long as there is one who has a
koan, the koan you cannot dissolve. The moment you drop that, you are the koan
and there is no koan anymore. There is total understanding, because you are
understanding, but as long as there is one who wants to understand the koan, you
will never dissolve the koan.
So you sit in front of that wall and meditate about that koan "Who am I?" This is
a koan, because you cannot dissolve that. That koan "Who am I?" drops when
the meditation of that meditator drops. When both are going in that mystery, you
become that mystery. That dropping of that is simply like a side-effect.
By being what you are, everything drops, because there was never anything
before or after what you are. So nothing drops because there is nothing to drop.
No ocean, no wave, nothing to come, nothing to go.
ROSA: What is the effect of drugs?
KARL: Drugs? It's like meditation. The intention of taking drugs is to go to that
"I"-lessness, to that blankness, to that non-doership, that irresponsibility. You
are simply spaced out by whatever drug. Meditation is the same. As long as
meditation is because of that, meditation becomes a drug. It's all a drug.
Whatever you do, whatever you long for, you want to have this drug for being
happy all the time, or you want to step out of that misery of that intention. With
a drug, the one who has an intention drops. The intention drops, it's simply gone.
ROSA: So if I don't want to hear you anymore, I close my eyes and meditate. So
that is then my escape.
KARL: I don't know. Yeah, you can try. [group laughs] Anyway, I'm not talking
to ghosts. I am always talking to That which is understanding already there, so it
doesn't matter. It's not in your hands anyway. Whether you give attention or not,
it's not your attention anyway. So don't worry. Escape.

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ROSA: I am proud now that I understand this.
KARL: Welcome.
ROSA: It's fun.
KARL: It's really like this. Whatever understanding that can come, will go
again, so what to do with it? So again, in spite of understanding or not
understanding, you are That. Never because. It will never be your understanding
anyway. Because when there is understanding itself, there is no "me" left. It will
not be in your presence. When you are That which is home itself, there is no one
at home. So you'd better not look for it. Because when there is home, you will
not be there.
BERTA: I know a nice joke about this. There were two madmen, and one
madman goes to visit the other—
KARL: "Enlightened ones!" Last time, you said, "Two enlightened friends."
BERTA: Oh, okay. [group laughs] Made them laugh anyway!
KARL: Enlightened is a better joke.
BERTA: So one enlightened one rings the bell and the door opens and the other
one says, "I'm not at home!" "Oh," says the first one, "I'm happy that I didn't
come!" [group laughs]
KARL: "Wake me up before you go." Everything okay? Hi! Have a question?
Something?
KRISTOPH: Not now.
KARL: Not now. Now, later. The Power of Now later. [group laughs] Maybe
you?

Grace without mercy

A British WOMAN: I was just wondering, well, what do you do? I mean, yeah,
the paradox and the polarities and all that sort of thing, and when you're here
you don't know you're here because you don't exist.
KARL: I didn't say that you don't exist.
WOMAN: Well, you don't know about it.
KARL: I just told you, you cannot—

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WOMAN: It doesn't matter! It's just so many words, and they don't help. [group
laughs]
KARL: I hope so, I hope so! I actually say, I hope it doesn't help. Because
imagine if I could help you. You would be something I could help!
WOMAN: I imagine that I'm moving toward trying to understand.
KARL: Yeah, I know! That's the problem.
WOMAN: That has something to do with moving in a direction, which you can
call helpful or whatever. I don't know whether talking about it is of any use at
all, and yet, here I am.
KARL: That's a problem.
WOMAN: It's just irritating! [group laughs]
KARL: That's granted. I'm not here to make anything clear. It's more like a
confusion that gets bigger. That's the point. Maybe you can get to that
experience that—in spite of order or not order, in spite of understanding—you
are, and not because of anything. You are even that total confusion of not
knowing what you are and what you are not—and you still are what you are. It
doesn't matter.
WOMAN: So then this "by-product," as you call it, is that an accident?
KARL: My talk goes to That, so that, by words, That which is understanding
already can simply be there, without that ghost "me."
WOMAN: I don't understand what on earth you're talking about! [group laughs]
Sometimes I do, but I mean, you talk very fast.
KARL: Yeah, I tell you!
WOMAN: And you're German! [group laughs]
MATTIAS: In German, he is even talking faster!
KARL: He says, just be lucky that I am not talking in German, then it would be
double speed.
British WOMAN: So the frustration is that it goes round and it's all as if
something should land, but it never lands.
KARL: But that "not landing" is landing. Then you may absolutely see there is
no place to land. I am like just a flying carpet with no landing place. A magic
carpet. No one sits on it. I am just a carpet that has no place to land.

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WOMAN: I like the whole thing you talk about that you don't sleep at night.
You know, so, I wake up. Is there any choice in that matter?
KARL: No, you cannot not wake up to what you are.
WOMAN: So I do what I do and he does what he does.
KARL: No, that's the very point. You cannot want what you want, and you
cannot first want what you do before you want what you do.
WOMAN: Say that again. [group laughs]
MATTIAS: In slow motion!
KARL: Slow motion. Einstein was always pointing to that he could only bear
humanity by seeing that humanity cannot want what humanity wants. So, all that
war, all those disasters, all that ugly stuff and evil things, he could only bear
with whatever his fragile heart—
British WOMAN: Yeah, he was horrible to his wife!
KARL: Yeah, I tell you. He was so frustrated that he could not help himself
being it. But that acceptance came in him to see that he could not want what he
wants. So whatever came is coming out of that totality as a total order. It's like
demand. You have to do it. You have no choice. You cannot be other than you
are, even as a body-mind organism. There is no way.
WOMAN: Even in whatever his understanding, beating up on his wife had to be
included in that?
KARL: Everything. Whatever.
WOMAN: Pisses me off.
KARL: Yeah. Peace is "peacing" you off.
WOMAN: Well, I don't give a shit about people's understanding, I care more
about if they're kind to each other, to be honest.
KARL: You what?
WOMAN: I care more—
KARL: I know.
WOMAN: I care more if somebody is kind to somebody else than if they're
enlightened.
KARL: If they are enlightened, they are not kind. I hope not. Because the
ruthlessness that comes with this, the concernlessness, is not nice.

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WOMAN: So what do you do about that?
KARL: I have no idea. That compassion is so blind, so radical, and so without
caring. This concernlessness, this ruthlessness, is not nice. This is grace without
mercy. There is no mercy and no kindness and no bliss in it. It is so radical—
you cannot imagine.
WOMAN: I'm having difficulty with that.
KARL: Of course, you have to, because you will be erased.
WOMAN: What do you mean?
KARL: You will be annihilated by that grace you are, because it will simply
take that idea of "you" away. So you don't like it, for sure. You can never like it,
to be killed by that grace. How can you like it? You don't have to like it, to be it.
You make standards. "If I had a choice, I'd rather like this coming as a nice,
kindly, whatever, understanding." But in all the stories I heard, it was always
like disaster, despair, always frustration, depression, all that coming to the nitty-
gritty of existence, to that total nakedness of being. And then it simply was
there, that total absence of any idea of what you are, but not by any heavenly
experience of nectar coming, floating into your so-called existence.
WOMAN: It seems this is often through some kind of extreme suffering. Is this
what you're talking about?
KARL: Yeah, it's like Saint John of the Cross and "the dark night of the soul."
WOMAN: Many.
KARL: Yeah, many. The stories are full of this.
WOMAN: Why is that?
KARL: Because this is a total depression, a vacuum of sense. It's a total
senselessness of existence, and no one can bear that. In that vacuum, in that
desert, in that void of sense, you simply freak out, because you have no hold
anymore.
WOMAN: Everything collapses.
KARL: Everything is collapsing. You have no landing place, no place to go to,
nothing. This is unbearable for a person. But that is the only way out of that
idea.
WOMAN: That's the only way?
KARL: Yeah, absolutely.

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WOMAN: Is that what happened to you?
KARL: Yep.
WOMAN: You went into an extreme of suffering?
KARL: Absolutely.
WOMAN: So why don't you talk about it?
KARL: The "me-graine"?
WOMAN: It's interesting. You had migraines?
KARL: It's called "me-graine." The "me" was grained.
WOMAN: That to me is interesting. What happened to you in, whatever it was,
I don't know, in that implosion, in that going down? I'm interested as a human,
on a human level.
KARL: Normally, I don't speak about it because there is no use for it, because
it's simply like a story. I have to really make an effort to go back to, whatever,
experiences, because in spite of them, there was always That which I am. I have
no idea. But we can talk about it. It makes no difference.
So, maybe late seventies, there are these experiences of light, "life experiences,"
you may call them, which are really death experiences. You die. Totally. In
whatever. This darkness of existence is eating you up, and you remain at that,
and then there is perception that is pure light, or whatever.
WOMAN: Did it happen through your life circumstances?
KARL: No.
WOMAN: Did it just kind of happen in the middle of the night, or whatever?
KARL: In the middle of night. In a dream.
WOMAN: It was nothing to do with anything that was happening?
KARL: No, it was like the Castaneda technique you used to do, to find your
hands in a dream. You make a lucid dream where you control your hands. You
remember that you dream and you lift your hands and look at them.
FRANCESCO: This is good.
KARL: That's very good. You may die with that.
FRANCESCO: Oh, okay.
KARL: Then you start dying because that awareness wakes up. You become
aware that you are aware. And then something is, like, triggered. I don't know.

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Then that darkness comes and eats you up. Because you die in it. You simply
die, but "aware" dying.
British WOMAN: The "me" dies?
KARL: Whatever form, whatever idea, dies.
WOMAN: Is that very painful?
KARL: You fight like hell. You fight for your life as nothing ever. This is
survival system. You fight against that with whatever is your energy, and then
after hours, when everything is gone, there's a moment of resignation and then
you simply resign yourself into That. "Okay." And then it—wah!—all becomes
light. Before, it's like you fight against yourself, against that darkness of being
beaten, eaten up. But then there is a moment of total acceptance, of death. Then
suddenly, you are that light. You went through the eye of the needle because you
became nothing, and then out of the ashes, the phoenix rises again. You are that
light.
Actually, this is only the start. This awareness happens then, because you always
wake up again as the body, then the form comes back, and all this. Then all the
migraines, body experiences, side-effects, whatever, happen. But this is all part
of consciousness going from identification to non-identification, from the form
to the non-form, from the form of energy to energy itself. With all these
changes, every cell in your body becomes aware about that awareness. So it
wakes up to That which is energy. It becomes very painful. Body aching,
migraine, and all that, what you may call "kundalini rising," blah, blah, blah,
until the snake is totally awake, like this column of light.
WOMAN: What is the point of it?
KARL: I have no idea. That is what I mean. That's all we can talk about. This is
all phenomena. It's still in whatever timeframe of coming and going.
WOMAN: It does seem like there's a pull. I feel a pull to that.
KARL: Yeah, because it's interesting, because you're so in love with your
experiences, you want to make more of a collection of experiences of whatever
kind of excitement. You are excited by that, of course, because you want to
collect those interesting experiences. You long for some, whatever, experiences,
to collect them, for a cold night. You want to collect something, whatever you
can dream about.
WOMAN: So you don't think that the purpose of this existence is just Self-
recognition?

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KARL: No, for that wanting, it has nothing to do with Self-realization. It's part
of that dream.
WOMAN: Whatever name you put to what you describe—I don't mind what
words you use—is that not somehow the purpose, the thrust of where everything
is going?
KARL: No you may say that longing, what you are longing for, is always That.
But not by any experience. Even by those experiences I just explained. Not by
any experience can you become That.
Even to come to Arunachala here, to come and meditate in a cave, and you go
into that light of Arunachala, then you see that this is the center of the universe,
as out of that light the whole universe comes and disappears. It's always like
creating, creating, like the infinite Source of light, becoming some forms and
non-forms, and all that you can imagine, coming out of that mountain. But the
beauty of it is to see that and still be prior to it. That is the beauty of that
mountain. It's an absolute pointer. It shows you that you are not even that light,
that you are even prior to that light, so whatever comes out of that light, you are
not. So you are not even that light.
WOMAN: I can't understand.
KARL: This is not part of understanding.
KRISTOPH: Intellectually? Or how do you get it then?
KARL: No, no.
KRISTOPH: I've also had these experiences, but I don't have the realization. So
what is the difference?
KARL: I don't know. For me, it's simply that absolute evidence that That which
I am is prior to whatever I can experience. Even the experience of awareness as
the primary light of the universe is because I am, but I'm not because of it. This
is like the split second that I am, in spite of the experiences or the experiencer,
what I am, and never because of anything. Even that extreme experience of that
light, of that awareness, cannot help me.
So I really see that helplessness I am. This is total resignation of any idea of
help, this is dropping out, being totally heartbroken by hopelessness and seeing
no land anymore. In anything. Not even that light of awareness, of knowledge,
Source of the universe, can help me. So that total helplessness is there. And
then, so what? Have another coffee.
It's such a paradise, because you drop out of all that hopelessness, and whatever
you can imagine, as you can never imagine what you are. You become that

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freedom itself which you can never imagine. You are totally untouchable by
whatever you can experience or not experience. Isn't it beautiful? Such a joke
that you could ever expect something coming out of whatever you can
experience!
MATTIAS: It's a relief, I find. I was sitting in a cave this morning, and I really
experienced this wanting to get somewhere. I thought I'd just sit there, but then
all this effort to be a meditator, to get something, was there.
KARL: As a person, there is no way out.
MATTIAS: I could not meditate anymore.
KARL: Again, I want to really point out that That which is consciousness—the
"I am" consciousness of Brahma—has to create, and part of creation is longing
for oneself, always meditating about That which is "I am." This is the realization
of whatever is consciousness. And there is no beginning and no end to it. This is
the functioning of consciousness—"I am" meditating about That which is "I
am." There is no way out. This will never end.
MATTIAS: Yeah, no matter what I do, even if I decide to not meditate, it's the
same thing.
KARL: Not doing is the biggest doing you can do. What to do? That which is
consciousness is as infinite as what you are. Infinite consciousness has never
any beginning and no end. Consciousness means "I am" meditating about That
which is "I am." This is consciousness.
MATTIAS: When you are saying that, this is a big relief. I don't feel somehow
that something will annihilate me, but I feel fine. It's joy! It's joy!
KARL: No, maybe you find out that you cannot be annihilated by anything,
because there is nothing to annihilate. You see that nothing will be gone,
because there was nothing to go. This is as solid as it can be. There is no coming
and going in it. So nothing ever happens. Nichts passiert (nothing happens). No
passing. So you'd better get used to what you are because it will take awhile.
But you will never get used to That. No one can take That. As much as you try,
by understanding, by loving, by divine love, "pralala," you cannot take That. By
no means. You can never become what you are by any understanding, nor can
you take it to be that absolute, infinite existence. No one can bear That.
And when you are That, there is nothing to bear. It's such an easiness. It's such
an effortlessness in itself to be That.

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But at the moment that you want to become it—any moment you want to
become That—you suffer. It's like committing suicide about yourself. Any
moment you want to become what you are, you are committing suicide.

Getting over Adam and Eve

MONIKA: But Karl, why do you think the original split happened?
KARL: Original sin.
MONIKA: Original sin?
KARL: Yeah, that's in the Bible. At the moment you want to know who you are,
you step out of that paradise of being knowledge itself. It's the idea that, by any
more or less knowledge, you can add something to that knowledge you are. So
you step out of that timelessness you are, into that which is time and non-time,
whatever, this frame.
MONIKA: Why did this first happen?
KARL: There is no "why." You just step out. You cannot not step out. You
cannot not fall in love with yourself.
MONIKA: Is it like expansion and contraction of the universe?
KARL: No, simply, you cannot not fall in love with yourself. You simply wake
up to imagining awareness as light, as you cannot not wake up to that awareness.
And out of that awareness, you fall in love with "I am" and "I am so-and-so."
This is the nature of it. You cannot not do it. You are the helplessness. You
cannot avoid anything!
Your helplessness means you are That without a second. It means there is no
control. There's absolute controllessness, because there is no second to control.
The beauty of "no second" is that there is no second who can control you.
Whatever is there is an imagination of separation and oneness, and whatever
ideas are there are because you imagine something. And all those imaginary
sensations cannot touch what you are. That's all. They are simply dream-like
imaginings. And you are That, but they will never change what you are, as they
can never touch or move you one inch.
An Italian MAN: So is the mistake we make to make a separate world in it?
KARL: No, you are not in it. You are it. The crazy idea that you take this [Karl
slaps his own leg] as being born, as your limited existence, you cannot avoid.
But now, you as the Self place yourself in front of That whatever that is sitting

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here, just to be reminded, "Hey, come on, this cannot be! You're joking! You
must be joking to take that as real, as being born!" Ha ha ha.
[Karl laughs, but all others are silent.]
MAN: But there is no difference? When this drops in the night, it's not separate
from what I am now?
KARL: No. It's here, now. You simply fall in love every morning with an
image—"me"—and then you are again in that relationship with yourself. And
that relationship with yourself means there are two selves, and this is
unbearable.
At the moment you take any image as a second, as real, you are creating a
second self. That there is a separation, that there is a second at all, is unbearable.
There will never be any acceptance of that second. So, out of that, you are
longing to erase it. Whatever you do, you want to make it go, you want to kill
that which is not you.
But the more you want to kill that image, the more it becomes alive. And at the
moment you see it's only imagination, there was nothing to kill. You cannot kill
an imagined thing. So what? It's simply okay. "I cannot kill an image. I cannot
do anything with it. So what?" So you rest in that absolute peace by seeing that
there is nothing to kill. And then you find there never was any second for That
which you are. It was simply like an idea coming out of the blue.
British WOMAN: But still it goes on happening. You go on relating and making
mistakes and having successes—
KARL: Yeah.
WOMAN: And it goes on happening anyway, whether you have that second or
not, huh?
KARL: Doesn't matter. That's the beauty of it. Even that experience of that
whatever dropping out doesn't matter. You cannot drop out of what you are.
That's all. This is a total dropping out, but no one was ever in. So what to do? If
you are That which is, what to do?
WOMAN: Then it doesn't matter much if you go out and murder or if you go out
and give satsang?
KARL: Why, I'm a killing machine! [group laughs]
WOMAN: Like, same.
KARL: Same, same. This choicelessness of being, this helplessness that is
sitting here, this Sitz Karlchen (seat of little Karl), this name, this personal

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whatever—if this person had an advantage idea, I would not sit here. I would
simply go to some holiday place somewhere, as a person would do, and lie in
the sun, and have a nice margarita at night, or whatever.
WOMAN: So you don't choose. How come you sit here?
KARL: Can you tell me? I have absolutely no idea. But I just gave up wanting
to know it. That's all.
WOMAN: Somebody just asked you?
KARL: Yeah, and there was some resistance, and when the resistance was
broken, I was sitting here. So there was even resistance to sit here. Because
before, for years I thought, "I would never sit in front of bloody seekers sucking
around here, wanting to get something!" [group laughs]
WOMAN: Do you have preferences? Would you rather be sitting on a beach as
you said, really?
KARL: Right now, if you ask me, if I could just make like this [snaps fingers]
and I could sit there, I would sit there. But as I cannot do it, I would rather sit
here. I am too lazy to make all the effort. I'd rather be moved by existence, and
be totally lazy, moment by moment in that acceptance, and I let existence work,
as existence does it anyway.
WOMAN: And that works?
KARL: It works.
WOMAN: You do go and shit when you need to shit, and when you're done you
get up?
KARL: Yeah. You know, mostly the toilet woman in an ashram gets
enlightened. Because she sees it only comes when it comes. [group laughs] But
not under pressure. Under pressure is always constipation. In Germany, it's very
famous now, "family constipation." [group laughs] Bert Hellinger. You get over
your mother, you get over your father, and then you're free. You get over your
grand, grand, grand—you get over Adam and Eve.

The absolute joke that you could escape this existence

you are
AIKO: Well, it seems like all these people that dropped or collapsed, they did all
that they could do before they collapsed somehow.
KARL: They did what?

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AIKO: They did many things, very intensely.
KARL: But every one said it was in spite of that. It's not needed.
FRANCESCO: Are we to understand that we don't need this?!
KARL: It's not out of need. It's simply that they could not avoid it.
FRANCESCO: Are you really saying this?
KARL: It's a difference. There's no necessity, but you cannot avoid all the steps
before. That's different than needing it. You don't need it, but you cannot avoid
doing it. That's something else.
THERESE: And you think you need it.
KARL: Yeah, that's an idea that you need it, that's all.
AIKO: So with this idea, you can lift whatever you hear?
KARL: You cannot avoid what you are, because this is your realization as the
personal experience, moment by moment. Having this personal experience is
part of your realization. There's nothing wrong or right with it. You cannot avoid
that part of your infinite nature.
AIKO: It's like you're running and running out.
KARL: You cannot run out. You cannot run out of energy because you are
energy.
MONIKA: Then comes this idea of "predestination" again.
KARL: So what? It's fine.
MONIKA: Can predestination be a frame?
KARL: No, that's another idea only. The main thing to see is that there is no one
who has any predestination. Predestination or not.
MONIKA: Predestination happens.
KARL: It's simply to tell you, just to show you, if there is predestination, you
cannot change what already comes. Because then you rest, maybe, in that
"okay." But even that doesn't help. You always get up again, and try to,
whatever, control it.
MONIKA: It has to be okay anyway.
KARL: Out of an "okay" always comes a "not okay" again. You have to live
with it. Even to call it "predestination" is trying to control it, because by
understanding it as predestination, that freedom or that peace that comes by that

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is depending on that idea. So, whatever you do, you make yourself dependant on
that understanding of predestination. You cannot step out of it. No way out.
That detachment is so totally attached to that detachment. When I am asked
what you do, I say—Be totally attached to what you are, be that absolute being,
as you cannot not be attached to what you are, being that attachment itself. You
cannot leave what you are.
In absolute identification, there is no separate identification anymore, and the
separate one is simply dropping—but that cannot be done. That absolute
identification that you are That cannot be done—you have to be it! But not by
any understanding, not by choice, not by anything, as you are That anyway, as
you cannot not be it, that's all! So be it!
MATTIAS: Fertig (finished).
KARL: Aber fertig (but finished)! So it's not a question of, as you ask me, "How
can you become it?" You cannot not be it. As you never left what you are, you
cannot go back. As you have never forgotten what you are, you cannot
remember it. So what to do?
FRANCESCO: Yeah, what to do? Every day after two hours, I understand
nothing! [group laughs]
KARL: Ah, that sounds good.
JUAN: Karl, you had this experience of light, right? An experience of being
eaten by darkness and all that, and after that, it was easy for you to realize this—
the Heart of existence.
KARL: No. It was by the way, in spite of it.
JUAN: But it feels like I am identified with the body and mind, and you want
me to jump straight to That.
KARL: I don't want you to do anything. I just tell you, in spite of those
experiences, you are, and not because of them. You may have such experiences
or not, but it needs one who cares, and you only care because you think there is
a way to it. You want to have the experience that makes you become again blah,
blah, blah.
It may happen or not, but in spite of that, you are—not because. So you cannot
avoid whatever longing for the next step, whatever sadhana or tapas or
exercises you do. They will be done. But in spite of that, you will be what you
are—not because.
So in spite of that, I am sitting here and talking, being totally irrelevant. That
was what Buddha was saying in the Diamond Sutra. He made totally clear that

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there never was any Buddha on earth and never will be. He said that he'd
preached for forty years and said no word to anyone. So, totally irrelevant.
And even Ramana said it, when he was asked what was the realization of
Ramana. He said that there was no such thing as Ramana who ever realized the
Self. Self is ever-realized, so what is there to realize?
There will never be any image that realizes That which is the Source of itself.
That which is the Source of whatever image is ever-realized. It doesn't need any
realization of any pot.
So you'd better be That which can never be realized because it's already realized.
You cannot add more realization to That which is the realization of what you are
anyway. You cannot make it more—or less. By any understanding, by any
insight, by any separate knowledge, there is no adding something to that
absolute knowledge you are.
And as the last shirt has no pockets, whatever you get in this lifetime will be
gone when this body is gone. You are so proud of your collection of insights and
experiences and understandings, and it all will be gone at that moment when this
body is gone. This memory effect will be gone, that's all. We are so proud. "I
have done twenty-five years of Vipassana tralala!" [group laughs] But what
then? "I am a master black belt, ninth degree!" But so what?
So I stick to the sticks. In German, we say, Das letzes Hemd hat keine Taschen
(the last shirt has no pockets). Just live as that—have nothing, gain nothing,
nothing to get, nothing to come—because the last shirt has no pockets. And you
will be surprised. When this body is gone, you will still be what you are.
Whether you like it or not, there will be no end when this body is gone.
PETE: When the body is gone, is there still this? [holds up fist, raises thumb,
index, and middle fingers, then closes fist again, and then raises thumb, etc.]
KARL: Yeah, yeah. It always starts again.
LIZ: Even when the body is gone? I thought death was the way out.
KARL: No. [group laughs] The only way out is to see that there is nothing born.
The only way out of that idea is to see that there is no one ever who is born. The
only thing that can die is the idea of "death." By seeing nothing was ever born,
nothing will ever die—there is no way out, my dear. "I just was hoping, maybe
ten years more, then I'm over it!"
LIZ: There's some days when it's so frustrating, and there's some days when it's
all right.
KARL: Fantastic.

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LIZ: So what, I don't know. Or maybe I do know? Or maybe I am?
KARL: You have to know what you don't know, that you don't know it.
LIZ: Sometimes, you just give up.
KARL: Yeah? You never give up. Because there is nothing to give up. You
cannot give up what is not even there. And you cannot give up giving up.
AIKO: Oh, you're so hopeless!
KARL: But still smiling! [group laughs] I tell you hopelessness is the big
laughter, the laughter of the universe laughing about the joke that you could ever
think you could escape That which you are. It's really an absolute joke that you
could ever have the idea that you could die, that you could escape that existence
you are. What an idea!
LIZ: Well, the idea is, even though we're saying that we're not born and we don't
die, the idea is that when we die, we quit looking because there we are.
KARL: You what?
LIZ: The concept I have is that, when we die, we can quit this wanting to know
because there we are.
KARL: You cannot quit falling in love with yourself.
LIZ: That's fine. But I don't want the other stuff, the questions.
KARL: Yeah, but that love is wanting to know yourself. By that love, you want
to know what you love. By falling in love with yourself, you create an image of
a beloved, and that you want to know, because you want to know what you love.
There is no way out. And you cannot not fall in love with yourself.
You cannot imagine what you are. So that imagination is the realization of what
you are and you cannot not realize yourself. You cannot not imagine yourself.
And by that imagination, you imagine a lover and a beloved. This you cannot
avoid.
You have to be—in spite of the lover and the beloved—what you are. In spite of
coming and going, the lover and beloved, and all those ideas—you are what you
are—not because something has to go. You don't need anything to go because
there is nothing to go.
LIZ: I believe that this moment, but the next moment—whoosh—it will come
back, like a snake, coming back in.
KARL: Yeah. That's why you're sitting here.
LIZ: Wearing you out.

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KARL: I think it's impossible. Many have tried. [group laughs] For hours and
hours. Weeks after weeks. Day by day, they are trying to suck me out, but there
is nothing to suck, nothing to wear out.
LIZ: Good. I won't feel guilty.
KARL: Otherwise, it's impossible.

The silence you are cannot be disturbed by all the

noise of India
AIKO: So you could do this for eight hours, not for two?
KARL: Oh, I did. How was I in Santa Fe? Nine to five, and then seven to nine. I
do it for weeks. Day by day.
FRANCESCO: Oh, my God.
KARL: Yeah, oh my God.
FRANCESCO: Good boy.
KARL: Good boy? Feel sorry for the listeners! [group laughs] I don't have to
listen to what I say. That's why I am saying it.
MATTIAS: That's why people talk.
KARL: Yeah, so they don't have to listen.
MONIKA: That's why Ramana didn't speak.
KARL: But he didn't listen, either. What is this fairy tale that he didn't speak?
MONIKA: He didn't speak much, no? [group laughs]
KARL: A stone doesn't say so much either.
LIZ: But it says something.
KARL: Yeah, it says, "I am a stone," if you look at it. Who has this idea that
silence has to be there by not speaking, not saying something? As if silence
needs non-speaking. What an idea!
LIZ: What an idea here in India!
KARL: Yeah. You will see, you walk through the streets, and the silence you
are cannot be disturbed by all the noise. That's India for you! All the
catastrophic, chaotic noises coming from everywhere. Every morning at four,

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the temple there and blah blah blah there. After a while, you say, "Okay! If I
don't go, okay."
No, I am always pointing to That which is silence itself. You can talk or not talk.
That talking or not talking, who cares? Consciousness talks anyway. Even by
not talking, you talk so much. You cannot stop talking.
AIKO: [laughing] Obviously.
KARL: Obviously! Look at it! The whole thing comes out of talking. Talking
with yourself. Having the idea and imagining, and out of the first word, I, comes
all the universe. Out of that talking with yourself, Self-entertainment, you create
the whole universe. And then you say, "Be quiet!"
FRANCESCO: No. Just speak slowly. [group laughs]
GEORG: Speak limit.
SOFIA: Speak in Italian.
FRANCESCO: No, no. That is too much. Because then I could understand.
[group laughs]
KARL: If you really would understand what I say—
FRANCESCO: It's too much.
KARL: He is very happy that I speak so fast and in English. The angel language.
Language of the angels. Angle Saxon. In German, we say Engel-land, the land
of the angels.
FRANCESCO: Yeah? Look at this! Such a place.
KARL: And it's very narrow there, that's why it's Enge-land (narrowness land).
[group laughs] You can do everything out of a word. Something from Brazil?
JUAN: I rest my case. [group laughs]
KARL: "Judge, I rest my case." Now you have to question the witness.
MONIKA: There is no witness.
KARL: Yeah, that's what I mean. You have to question the witness. [group
laughs]
MARY and THERESE: That's what we're doing! We're questioning you!
KARL: [joining in the laughter] This is "Who am I?"—questioning the witness.
Who is witnessing the witness? So it's like "Who am I?" is "Who is the witness
of the witness?" What is perceiving that perceiver? Is there a difference? Who is
there, then?

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And you step back and back and back. Who is wit? Wit is "white." Witness of
blankness. There was white light, then there's a witness. If there's no more
questions, I just make puns. [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: You may rest your case.
KARL: But if you analyze the language, it's really great! Wit means "white,"
like pure light, and witness then is "that pure awareness of whiteness," being a
witness of that pure awareness. It's great! Go to that root of language.
It's all Self-made. Imagine! If the Self can talk with itself, then we have
Babylon. Out of Babylon came all of the different languages. They became all
sandwich-like language.
THERESE: And babiller in French is "babble"—blah, blah, blah.
KARL: In German too.
THERESE: And when a baby starts to talk, it is babil (prattle).
KARL: Blah, blah. Babble. Babble on. Babylon.
MARY: Babble means "to talk nonsense."
KARL: But it's like you talk different languages, because you don't understand
what the other one says. You're lost. Too many people anyway. Two is even too
much.
FRANCESCO: You only need one.
KARL: Yeah, out of one come two.
FRANCESCO: You!
KARL: Me!

Nothing is more negative than positive thinking

ROSA: When I watch you, I see you are always joking and laughing.
KARL: They call me "Mr. Teflon." [group laughs] In Berlin, this lady meant it
like an offense. "You are like Teflon. Nothing sticks to you! You are still
laughing. I can blame you, I can do whatever, and you are like Teflon. Nothing
sticks to you." Oh, sounds good.
ROSA: You are too happy. There is something wrong. [group laughs]
KARL: Too happy? In America, they say, "For a German, you have humor.
Something is wrong with you."

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MONIKA: [laughing] Yes!
KARL: "You are too happy. You cannot be German, because German means
something else."
ROSA: But what about suffering? You know, this is the path to enlightenment.
KARL: Yeah?
FRANCESCO: Uh, oh! [group laughs]
KARL: Enjoy your ride.
THERESE: I don't join you there.
KARL: Maybe you find some guests to suffer with you.
ROSA: Lots. Lots! [group laughs]
KARL: But I wish you suffer your last supper then. For the crucifixion, the end,
of suffering, may you suffer and then become the last supper. You will be eaten
up.
ROSA: Exactly. But is it necessary?
KARL: What?
ROSA: To be eaten up.
KARL: No, it's not necessary, but unavoidable. [group laughs] It's the same as
sitting here—you don't have to, but you cannot avoid it.
ROSA: It's cruel.
KARL: It's very cruel. You are very cruel with yourself, my dear. You like
yourself too much. That makes you so cruel. Yeah, you're so in love with
yourself that you are so cruel with yourself, because love is war. In love and in
war, there are no rules, so you are so cruel.
ROSA: So "love yourself" is really not good advice. [group laughs]
KARL: I wouldn't say so.
KAATJE: Why not love yourself?
KARL: Because there is no Self to love. How can you love yourself, as there
was never any Self to love? First, you have to create an image of yourself that
you can love. You want to dance with some partner, and you create a partner.
Then you forget that the partner is no different from what you are, because you
only imagined a second one. Then you dance with someone and take the second
one as real. So then you are out of That.

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But by seeing that, by your imagination, you created a dance partner, then you
dance with that imagined partner for whatever time of that realization. It's Shiva
dancing with himself, creating the whole universe. Then Shiva forgets that he
imagines a second, and steps into that trap of imagination and becomes a jiva, a
little self. And out of that little self, taking that image as real, you suffer. And
then I am sitting here telling you, "Hey, my goodness! Almighty!" And then
again, you say, "Okay."
But you cannot avoid again falling into the same trap. You always, by love,
open this same trap and you step again into that trap that of taking that imagined
second as real, and then you dance again. Unavoidable. You cannot not dance.
And you cannot say "no" to the invitation of yourself for dance. Du kannst dein
selbst keinen Korb geben (you can't reject yourself, turn yourself down). If
existence wants to dance, existence will dance, whether you like it or not. In
spite of that there's no necessity to dance, you dance.
KAATJE: So it's best to accept everything.
KARL: To see that there is no way out, that there is dancing. There is knowing,
there is not knowing, so that realization is whatever can be. You cannot not
realize yourself. And part of that realization is whatever you can imagine. You
are That which is realizing itself but itself cannot be realized.
KAATJE: Say it again?
FRANCESCO: This you don't ask! [group laughs]
KARL: You are That which is realizing itself, but That which is realizing itself
cannot be realized.
KAATJE: I see.
KARL: It's easy. You are That which is imagining everything, but itself, it
cannot imagine That which is imagining everything. So, itself, it cannot be
imagined. So that is life itself, but whatever comes out of that absolute life,
whatever you imagine as life, is imagination. But That which is life itself, cannot
be imagined.
So be That which cannot be imagined by not knowing, by not understanding, by
being what nothing can be done to. That's freedom itself. Because that not
knowing what you are and what you are not is paradise.
And the rest is being a sufferer, or whatever you imagine. Whatever you
imagine you are, you are, you become. So if you imagine yourself to be a
sufferer, you suffer. If you imagine yourself to be That, you are That. If you
imagine yourself to be a mountain, you are a mountain. Whatever you imagine,
you become.

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THERESE: But you have no choice on your imagination.
KARL: As I said.
MATTIAS: Tomorrow you may wake up as a mountain. [group laughs]
KARL: Maybe today she woke up as a mountain, but Thérèse is fine enough
right now.
THERESE: I'm so happy to be a happy failure! I'm still enjoying the happy
failure idea. [group laughs]
KARL: Failed again! That's the best thing. Oh, failure! Failed again! The nature
of the failure—failing. Fehler (mistake).
MATTIAS: Or loving, which is the same. Failing or loving.
KARL: Loving?
MATTIAS: New dictionary. Failure is "loving."
KARL: Out of loving, you fail.
LIZ: I failed at loving.
KARL: Out of loving, you miss. Or whatever. Yeah. Some more little
questions?
JUAN: Karl, if you imagine to be a sufferer, you're a sufferer; if you imagine to
be an enjoyer, you're an enjoyer—but you cannot control it.
KARL: You have to be, in spite of being a sufferer and suffering, only That
which you are. It's unavoidable. You cannot avoid what you are. That which is
whatever aspect of existence, you are. And you cannot not imagine yourself as
it, and by imagining it, you become it. And then there is the sufferer, the
suffering, and that which is suffered about.
But you are That which is the sufferer, That which is the suffering, and That
which you suffer about. You are always that experiencer, that experiencing, and
what is experienced—as you are whatever is. You cannot not experience what
you are. And by experiencing yourself, you become an experiencer experiencing
what is experienced. But there is no difference. There is no separation between
the experiencer, the experiencing, and what is experienced. It's all the realization
of what you are as consciousness.
JUAN: But I'd rather experience myself being the enjoyer rather than the
sufferer.
KARL: But that is part of the imagination.

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LIZ: You're saying there's no control.
KARL: No.
LIZ: I was hoping if I imagined myself—
KARL: That's a different story. That's like giving an order to the universe, or
this mystic—
LIZ: Controlling.
KARL: Yeah.
MONIKA: Positive thinking!
KARL: Nothing is more negative than positive thinking. This really makes a
discrimination for whatever. You put your blackness or your darkness in your
bag and then "Oh, my open heart! Embracing everything—Me! I just came from
heart surgery, and now I have an open heart! I came from that guru and he
opened my heart and now I'm embracing everything!"
FRANCESCO: This is not in your case.
KARL: Not in my case?
FRANCESCO: No, no.
KARL: Oh, I break your heart.
AIKO: The other day, you told me, "Embrace the devils, embrace the gods!"
KARL: Yeah, but you cannot do it. As you are the devil, you cannot embrace
yourself. [she laughs]
Total embracement is being That which is the devil. So there is nothing to
embrace. But this is absolute embracement. By being That which is the devil, by
being That which is heaven, by being That which is hell, that is absolutely
embracing whatever is. But not by one who is embracing it—by being it!
I'm not asking you for an act of embracement, I'm asking for absolute
embracement by being That which is. By being That which is the devil, by being
That which is God, by being whatever you can imagine you are. This is an
absolute embracement of being That which is. This is not a separate or relative
embracement of one who is embracing the world with an open heart. "Oh, you
still have a closed heart, my dear! Oh, I'm so sorry about you." I'm not talking
about that. I'm talking about that absolute embracement, by being it, by being
That.
LIZ: Acceptance. Just accepting that we're all of these things. Is that what you
mean?

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KARL: No, by being it! That is absolute acceptance itself. But you cannot
accept it. You have to accept that it doesn't need any acceptance, and that you
cannot accept. You aren't anyway, because you live by that idea that you can
accept something or not.
SOFIA: No controller then.
KARL: Yeah.
MATTIAS: And that we can imagine we can—that's also an illusion, because as
a person we don't exist, so it's not ours.
KARL: Whatever.
MONIKA: Anyway, it doesn't work.
KARL: It's not even God's. There's no institute.
MATTIAS: It just is. God's Loving Institute.
KARL: "God Loving Institution. Care-taking Institute of God. Brahman will
help you."
ROSA: So I have a question now. Maybe it's stupid. But there are no stupid
questions, only stupid answers.
KARL: Don't worry. There are only stupid questions and stupid answers. Don't
worry.
ROSA: So I have no decision, really. I cannot make a decision. The decision is
already made.
KARL: I have no idea.
ROSA: So am I free?
KARL: You? No.
ROSA: Is it avoidable? My decision—is it avoidable or is it unavoidable?
KARL: Both are concepts. Both need one who needs to know it, and one who
cares about free will or no free will.
ROSA: So I don't care?
FRANCESCO: You ask this? Funny question.
KARL: No, I would say That which you are is concernlessness and doesn't care
about if you care or not. There was never anyone who cared about that caring.
The free will or no free will, the decision or no decision, is always depending on
there being one who could have one. So both are concepts.

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If you see both are concepts, and both are there or not, you may experience free
will and you may experience no free will, but still the experiencer will be there
as a separate experiencer of having or not having free will. So it makes no
difference. So even the no free will is evidence that you exist as having no free
will.
There is no way out in that seeing that there is no free will. Because it's simply
like an exchange of concepts. Maybe it's a good psychotherapy; your life may be
easier because you lose your, whatever, guilt feelings, so you have maybe a
better personal life. There is nothing against it. But if you talk about That which
you are, it makes no difference.
So there is no advantage in seeing that you have no free will. Because if there
would be an advantage in seeing that there's no free will, it still would need one
who could have an advantage, one who could need an advantage. What an idea!
So that advantage of seeing that there is no free will and going to that
impersonal consciousness is still a disadvantage because it needs one to have an
advantage. Forget it. Both are concepts. Find the one who could have one.
ROSA: So it's not to find? It's not to be found?
KARL: So not finding what you are, in whatever, you rest—but never, ever, in
any finding of any concept or image or whatever landing place of whatever idea
or frame of concepts. By not finding, you are that freedom, because that freedom
cannot be found, because there is nothing to find for that freedom. Freedom
means there is no second, there is no object, there is no relative, there is no idea,
there is no concept about That which is freedom. So That which is freedom has
absolutely no idea about what is and what is not freedom.
I'm talking about that absolute absence of the concept of "freedom," not about
any understanding of free will, no free will, blah, blah, blah. All this is the realm
of consciousness. In consciousness, we always step back into that stupidity and
ignorance, so in love with itself. It always will create the lover and beloved
again, and then step back into that ignorance. So it will come to that
understanding, and that understanding you can become or you can go to, you
will leave again. Finally, you have to be absolutely in spite of whatever you can
understand or not understand.
You are in spite even of consciousness, as you are even prior to that concept of
"consciousness." Or energy, as That which is energy doesn't know energy. That
which is consciousness doesn't know consciousness. And That which is
consciousness, as the Heart of consciousness, doesn't even know Heart, or
anything, has absolutely no idea about consciousness, awareness, or whatever
you can name and frame with words and concepts.

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In what you are, there is that Selflessness, even, that Godlessness. That which is
God, as what you are, has no idea about God. So, for what you are, there is no
God. There never was and never will be. For what you are, which is grace, there
will be no grace. So you'd better not wait for it. Hallelujah!
I think it was a good goodbye. Thank you very much. Namaste.
GROUP: Thank you! Namaste.

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January 17, 2004: Still the happy failure;
or, the end of intellect

The ghost in the bottle

KARL: Shall we swap today?
A MAN: No, no. You sit there. This is okay.
KARL: Thank you very much. Welcome. Is everything okay?
A WOMAN: Is the microphone on?
KARL: Yeah, it says "on," but sometimes, you never know. Okay, who is on
today?
KAATJE: I have a lot of questions. I don't know where to start, though. [voice
wavering] I just arrived here three days ago, and I have this constant feeling that
I want to cry all the time.
KARL: Cry, cry!
KAATJE: [tears start flowing] It's so beautiful. The people I've been meeting,
and— like I've been carried from this, like I'm not doing anything at all.
Everybody, everything takes care of me. I didn't even know who you were, I
never heard of you, and everybody was astonished that I haven't heard of you
[group laughs], and I didn't know what to expect when I came here yesterday,
and I've been in this constant state of—I don't know how to [sobs]—I don't
know—
KARL: Welcome it. Just say "hello." Yeah. What to say?
KAATJE: What to say!
KARL: Sounds very good. So just enjoy it.
KAATJE: I do. I feel I am not doing anything also. It just happened to me.
Everything is happening to me. So beautiful! So beautiful!
KARL: What have you done right then?
KAATJE: Nothing. I've done nothing.
KARL: [to the group] You see?! [to Kaatje] Actually, you don't deserve that.
[group laughs]
THERESE: [teasing] Starts now. Was too sweet until now.

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KARL: No, the beauty is she has nothing done for her. That's the beauty of it. In
spite of whatever.
KAATJE: In spite of. Yeah.
KARL: So enjoy it.
KAATJE: I will. I do. I'm so grateful, so grateful. [weeps] I'm so overwhelmed.
KARL: You waited so long, huh?
KAATJE: Who knows? I don't know.
KARL: The beauty is that it's never too late. There is no time for it. It happens
when it happens.
KAATJE: Yeah.
KARL: Until the last minute of this body, anything can happen. What to do?
KAATJE: I don't expect anything. Whatever happens—
KARL: —may happen.
KAATJE: May happen.
KARL: Sounds good. There is a total welcome.
KAATJE: Yeah.
KARL: So what to say then?
GEORG: Welcome!
KARL: Welcome! But if you have any question, just tell me.
KAATJE: I will.
A Spanish MAN: Karl, you've been talking about the "I," the "I am," and the "I
am so-and-so." That "I am so-and-so," is that "I am a man, I am a husband?"
KARL: Whatever. Even if you say, "I am the world," it's the same. The pure "I
am" is simply space. There is no identification of "I am." It's simply the feeling
of "I am," without giving any object or idea to it, simply space-like. Then going
to some form—"I am the form or object," you go to the "I am so-and-so," "I am
the world," whatever you make of a form. So out of formless "I am" comes
form. There's a space-like "I am," and then comes something like a form into it.
You become that form.
MAN: And the "I," then?

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KARL: The "I" is simply pure consciousness, formlessness. This [holds up his
thumb to symbolize "I"] is the Source of formless [holds up thumb and index
finger to symbolize "I am"] and form [holds up thumb, index, and middle fingers
to symbolize "I am so-and-so"]. This is the formlessness which is the Source of
emptiness and fullness.
MAN: And those three go together?
KARL: All this pops up like this. [holds up his thumb, index finger, and then
middle finger, and then draws them back into a fist, over and over in cycles, to
symbolize the coming and going of different states of awareness] Out of this
awareness as "I" [thumb], come "I am" [thumb and index finger] and then form
[thumb, index, and middle fingers]. At night, these drop together [tucks in his
index and middle fingers], and this remains as deep sleep state [thumb]. But
even prior to that, is this [holds up fist to symbolize Heart]. So, as this is prior to
awareness, it's prior to "I am"-ness and prior to "I am so"-ness. In whatever
state, this [fist] is without any state. There is statelessness.
The first notion, the first experience of light, the first Om or sound, is "I." Out of
that "I"-thought comes "I am"-ness and "I am so"-ness. But this [fist] is always
what is realizing itself as "I" [thumb] "am" [thumb and index finger] "the world"
[thumb, index, and middle fingers]. This [fist] you never lose; this you never
left. So whether you go from this state [thumb, index, and middle fingers] to this
state [thumb and index finger] to that state [thumb], it cannot make you this
[fist], as you are this [fist] in any state. Simply this, Heart itself, not knowing
what is Heart and what is not Heart.
This is the absolute Source [fist]; this is the Father [thumb], the Holy Spirit
[thumb and index finger], the Son [thumb, index, and middle finger]. "I"
[thumb] "am" [thumb and index finger] "Jesus" [thumb, index, and middle
finger]—or whatever you say— "I" [thumb] "am" [thumb and index finger]
"man" [thumb, index, and middle finger]—comes out of this [fist]. But this
[cycles fingers into and out of fist] is the realization of this [fist]. So only this
[fist] is real.
But that's reality you cannot find, you cannot name, you cannot frame, you
cannot do anything to it. Even to call it "reality" is too much. Because reality
doesn't know reality, as Heart doesn't know Heart.
It makes no difference. There is no discrimination in the "I" or the "I am" or the
"I am so-and-so." In all this, even in separation, there is no separation, in
oneness there is no oneness, and in "I"-ness there is no "I"-ness. All these
[thumb, index, and middle fingers] are ideas. Even the first "I," the first word or
sound, already is a reflection of That.

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This [fist] can never be known or not known, as you are That. That absolute
knowledge you cannot leave, you cannot lose, you cannot gain, nothing is to do
with it. So when Ramana says to be That which you are, he is pointing to That
which is Heart itself. This you cannot forget and you cannot remember.
Simply be That which you are. But not by knowing or not knowing. In spite of
knowing or not knowing, you are That which is Heart, never because. That is
called "the causelessness" itself, the false state, or statelessness of existence. All
names that point to That which you are.
It's enough? If something's not clear, just ask. Even that clarity comes and goes,
so don't worry. You are in spite of clarity and un-clarity what you are, not
because. So even that understanding may come now, or not, because even
understanding comes and goes. But you may experience that absolute
experience that you are in spite of understanding, not because. Here, now, you
are in spite of whatever idea you have or don't have of what you are. Whatever
image you give yourself, you are in spite of that image, not because. So it may
come. Okay?
[The man nods.]
TOMAS: Well, Karl, what is this knowledge that you speak about based upon?
KARL: It is based upon the experience of "I am so-and-so;" it is based upon the
experience of "I am;" and it is based upon the experience of light. And as there
is an experience of light or "I" or Om, That which is the absolute experiencer has
to be prior to that. That's all. It's based upon the experience that whatever you
can experience cannot be what you are. So even that primal light as the first "I,"
the first notion of existence, is an experience. You, as the absolute experience,
have to be prior to that experience, but not by knowing it, then, simply by being
prior to whatever you can experience. So it's not like you know something. It's a
total absence of knowing or not knowing.
TOMAS: But is there any difference in your knowing that, and let's say, my
knowing that?
KARL: There is no my knowing. That's the difference. There's a total absence of
one who knows or doesn't know. There was never any knower or not-knower.
So there is no difference between my knowing and your knowing, because there
is neither my knowing nor your knowing.
TOMAS: I know, but isn't that also knowing? It's like that thing that you say,
that these are all pointers.
KARL: That's you making the difference, not me. I don't see any difference. For
me, you are That which is Heart as I am—Heart itself. I speak only to That

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which is Heart itself anyway. But not by knowing That which is Heart, simply
by being what is. It's not a form or non-form or any idea. I never speak to any
idea or image. I speak to That which is. Me. Not to an idea of myself.
TOMAS: Doesn't somebody have to know that?
KARL: I don't know if you have to know that. You cannot not know that. That's
the point. That knowledge you are. This you cannot lose. So as you have not lost
that knowledge, you cannot gain it back. That's all. As you are that knowledge,
you cannot not know it.
You are that absolute knowledge of That which is Heart, because that absolute
knowledge you cannot gain, and you never lost it. So whatever you do to gain it
back, you're stepping out of it, that's all. Simply by having the idea that you can
add something to what you are—
TOMAS: Yeah, but my question is—what you just said, isn't that knowledge,
and how far different is that from just knowing it intellectually, say? You say it's
based upon this experience, but the ultimate thing you cannot experience, so it
cannot be based upon anything.
KARL: That is the absolute experience—That which you are, you cannot
experience. That absolute non-experience is an experience too. It's an absolute
knowing, but without knowing or not knowing. It's a total absence of one who
knows or doesn't know, so it's in spite of any coming and going. And that is the
meaning of "nothing ever happened to That which you are."
That which is, not an image, not an object, neither born nor not born—whatever
you say, it's not—what can happen to That? Nothing every happened to That
which is you, or Heart, or whatever you call it. But this is an absolute
experience, to be that Absolute that is in every given moment, even prior to
birth, even prior to Adam and Eve, even prior to the beginning of the universe,
whatever, That which it is.
TOMAS: But there is nobody who experiences that?
KARL: There is no experiencer as a separate one, but there is an absolute
experiencer as That which it is. That is not a personal experience or impersonal
experience. It is simply experiencing itself, being That which is prior to
whatever can be experienced, being That which is prior even to experiencing,
being that Absolute— It's a pointer. I don't want to frame it by that. I simply
point to That which you are, as you cannot catch it in any way. Uncatchable.
"Catch me if you can."
There are differences between Tomas and Karl—all the differences of form and
non-form, whatever, knowing and not knowing, but in That, there's a total stop

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of differences. So, for what you are, all the differences make no difference. So
there are differences, but there are not.
TOMAS: I understand all this. I just don't understand how far this understanding
can be said to be based upon experience, or let's say, pointers.
KARL: It's a non-experience. It's not based upon an experience. It's based upon
the absolute absence of an experiencer.
TOMAS: But you have to know that, you know, otherwise, how could you talk
about it? It's like the pointer. You have to know what you point at.
KARL: I have to be That, and being That is absolute knowing it.
TOMAS: And how do you know that you are That?
KARL: [laughing] There is no "me" who knows or doesn't know it. That's the
point. There's a total absence of a "me" who knows or doesn't know. That I
cannot lose and I never gained. So this I cannot lose again because I never
gained it. I don't need to know it! Knowledge needs me to know or not to know.
I don't need knowledge to be what is prior to knowledge.
TOMAS: Okay, but in that sense, nobody is any different.
KARL: [laughing] Did I say anyone is different here? I said, "You make the
difference, not me."
TOMAS: Well, I'm just trying to figure out the difference.
KARL: But by trying to figure out the difference, you make a difference.
TOMAS: All right.
KARL: By trying to figure out the difference between you and me, you make a
difference already. I have no idea about it. There are differences, but they don't
make any difference. That's all. This paradox you cannot solve.
TOMAS: Um hmm.
KARL: This koan you have to be. So what to do? Okay.
KAATJE: The ghost is out.
KARL: Woo-oo! The ignorant ghost is out?
KAATJE: Well, it took me a long time to understand what that means. It was
never in!
KARL: That's the only way out, to see that there was never anyone in anything.
So there's still no way out, but there is absolutely no need for any way out,

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because there never was anyone in. So what to do? Yes, this is the ghost in the
bottle, eh?
KAATJE: Yes.
KARL: It's a special Dutch one, huh?
KAATJE: Yes, I was thinking and thinking—
KARL: How can that ghost come out?
[Both laugh.]
THERESE: How does the ghost get in?
KAATJE: Well, it was growing inside the bottle.
KARL: That's the point. You can imagine that it comes from wherever and it
was growing inside and how to get it out of that bottle? It's like you were born in
some frame, a time frame, and then you are like a little cell or whatever creation,
and then you grow in that bottle, but how can you get out of that bottle then?
[Kaatje laughs.]
So you go back to the question, "Is anyone born at all?" In this information,
images, rising and growing and transforming—is there anyone at all who is born
in it? That is like, "Who am I?" Who is here, now, born at all? Is that what I am?
When Ramana was lying down and questioning himself about what will happen
when he dies, when the body is gone, all ideas gone, whatever can go—what
happens then to That which I am?—then he had that life experience itself. That
which is life itself is independent of any image or idea of being born or not born,
of knowing or not knowing, whatever you can imagine, in spite of it, you are
That which is life, which is Heart itself.
This is such an absolute experience, this absolute independence or absolute
freedom of experience, being free of any image or idea of what you are,
absolutely independent of that. This is an absolute experience, but it's not an
experience of That which you are. It's experiencing that, even in that absolute
absence of whatever you can experience, you still are what you are. This is all I
am talking about, nothing else.
It's not an experience of something that I am. It's an experience that, in spite of
what comes and goes, in spite of whatever can be known or not known, I am
what I am. Never because.
When you go into that light of Arunachala, the first light of existence, of
notions, the center of the universe, and you still see, Arunachala is after me,

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because I am not that. I am prior to that. So this is an absolute pointer that you
are That which is Arunachala, but you are not Arunachala.
You are That which is light, but you are not light. You are That which is
formless, but you are not formless. You are That which has form, but you have
no form. Nothing is there without That which you are. But That which you are,
you cannot find out.

If you wake up, don't take it personally

JAMES: I seem to recall in the past you saying that you "saw" this.
KARL: I'm seeing it now.
JAMES: Well, what is it that sees?
KARL: There is no "what." Because whatever you make out of it, it's an
experience.
JAMES: Yeah. So it's the subject.
KARL: It's not even the subject. The subject you can describe, you can frame.
Even the witness is witnessed by That.
JAMES: Yeah, yeah. Prior to the witness.
KARL: For whatever you say.
JAMES: So if we go back in time—
KARL: Back in time? Oh, that's hard. For that, we have to imagine "time" first.
JAMES: Okay, so if we imagine time, and we imagine a "Karl"—
KARL: Imagining "Karl," yeah, that's hard. [group laughs]
JAMES: At some point, something happened, there was some scene that
happened. Not to "Karl," but within the reference of the body-mind—
KARL: You mean that at some point there was a little "Aha! Nothing ever
happened to That which you are."
JAMES: In what sense? Was that seen, felt, or heard?
KARL: No. It was simply "Aha!" And then you have a coffee. Nothing special.
THERESE: I drink so many coffees lately! [group laughs]
A MAN: Aha! Coffee!

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KARL: That's the whole problem with the experience hunters. They always
want to have a big one. "If I would, it would be a big one. Firework of existence.
Existence has to celebrate me then, when I have my experience!"
MAN: Cosmic orgasm.
KARL: Yeah, the cosmic orgasm everyone is looking for.
FRANCESCO: For one minute.
MAN: That's nice.
JAMES: At the same time, with all these masters, enlightened masters of the
past, there was always an event, a seeming event, that took place either in time
or out of time. Ramana talks about this perceiving that he was going to die, and
then seeing that he wouldn't die, and other teachers have had similar
experiences.
KARL: Yeah, but then absolutely pointing out that there was no before and no
after, because all the ideas of time, of coming and going and happening, were
totally gone. In that experience that whatever is life itself, there is no coming
and going, there was no before and no after. So whenever this moment in time
happens, there is no time anymore. Never was. So there is no special event in
anything. Because this is a non-event. Nothing happens! But this is so beautiful
that nothing happens.
JAMES: I don't understand that. I mean, in the past I've had experiences—
KARL: You collected experiences, that's all.
JAMES: And after those experiences, my reality changed.
KARL: That's what I say. By that experience, nothing will change. Because as
long as there is my reality, and my reality is changing by my experiences—what
an idea? You make a history. You take even enlightenment personally.
JAMES: Yeah, well, that's what we do, isn't it?
KARL: You cannot otherwise. No way. I always say, if you die, don't take it
personally. [group laughs] Yeah, but that's what I'm talking about. If some
firework of enlightenment happens, don't take it personally. It's simply another
experience of whatever you can experience, that's all. If you wake up, don't take
it personally! [laughs] Every morning, you can do that—if you wake up, don't
take it personally. That's all.
JAMES: I know these are just labels, but some people have the idea that there
are two separate things, Self-realization and enlightenment.
KARL: Some have the idea, yes.

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JAMES: You don't see that. From the absolute perspective, no, but in the
relative, is there?
KARL: Is there a difference? You can make a difference, if you like. You may
say enlightenment is going from the "I am so-and-so" to the "I am." Satori,
going from identification to non-identification, you can make it "enlightenment."
You can say enlightenment is even to have an experience of that light, or an
experience that you are light and everything else is illusion. Then you run
around like light. "I am real, but everything else is not." So you are landing there
in what is called "light." And then there is an enlightened one who sees all
unenlightened ones around him. So then you're in the God-consciousness and
you see only pigs sitting around you.
JAMES: So you can be an avatar, or whatever.
KARL: Whatever.
JAMES: But what about Self-realization?
KARL: Self-realization I would call the realization that That which is Self is
ever-realized and doesn't need anyone to realize anything. But this is not a
realization of something, this is a non-realization. This is a realization that
existence, for sure, doesn't need a pot to realize what is existence.
JAMES: And when you say that there's no advantage, you really mean that from
the perspective of the Self, there's no advantage.
KARL: From what else can I talk? Should I go into the level of "the other one?"
[group laughs] "Please come to my level so we can talk! Please confirm me as a
level. Please confirm me as an idea, otherwise I cannot exist as an idea. Take
care of me, please!"
FRANCESCO: I like this!
JAMES: Well, in a way, that's what some of us would like, I think.
KARL: Yeah, everyone likes it.
JAMES: Well, I see that you are talking from the Self—
KARL: No, I'm not talking from the Self.
JAMES: You are the Self talking to the Self, right?
KARL: I'm what Buddha said—there's preaching but no word is said to anyone.
JAMES: That's hard to believe over here.

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KARL: Believe? If That is what you are, when you totally see that, that nothing
ever happens—this irrelevance is paradise. Everything else is bondage, being
bonded to the importance of what you say, how clearly you can put it into
words, and whether someone understands it or not. Oh my goodness. And you
maybe can transmit by words or by look what you are. "You really go onto my
receiver." In German, we say "Du gehst mir auf den Sender" (you're
broadcasting to me).
A German WOMAN: Wecker (alarm clock).
KARL: You go on my clock or my watch. I would say, "I'm your alarm clock.
Now I am ringing. You have to wake up!" [group laughs] So, final question.
JAMES: Final question.
KARL: Sounds promising.
JAMES: The final question—
KARL: Will you ever get it? [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: There's no way! Not today. Maybe tomorrow.
JAMES: I'm not interested in that. Why would I want to get it, right? Final
question, for the time being anyway. In a relative sense, there seems as though
there is a progression in time for a seeker. Do you agree with that? You know,
that one gains more awareness or more peace.
KARL: I would say, the more you seek, the more stupid you get. [group laughs]
The more you think you collect experiences in your so-called seeker life history,
the more stupid you get. The more quantity of relative knowledge you earn by
seeking, the more you have to carry around, and that's stupid. So the more you
seek, the more you collect experiences around your neck. Even with that final
enlightenment pearl around your neck that you want to share and then you have
to polish and nourish, the quantity of ignorance is growing.
JAMES: All right. So that's quite depressing, don't you think? [group laughs]
KARL: When two hear the same thing, for one it's depressing, for the other it's
totally relaxing.
JAMES: Yeah, yeah.
KARL: "Hallelujah! All that for nothing. Thank God." Or, "All that for nothing?
Poor me!" You never know what comes out. [group laughs]
JAMES: So in a sense, there's no enlightenment, there's no realization, there's
just giving up the search.

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KARL: Who can give up the search? And who needs that advantage of giving
up the search? Another stupid idea! You are adding stupidity to stupidity,
ignorance to ignorance, that's all. Whatever you do, whatever you don't do—
JAMES: Is there some point where you can get so much stupidity that—
KARL: [laughing] That you explode out of that stupidity? [group laughs]
Sounds clever. But it's still stupid.
JAMES: Okay, I'll shut up now.
THERESE: No!
FRANCESCO: No, please don't!
KARL: That sounds promising, but I don't believe you.
FRANCESCO: You say all the time, "yes you want, you want, you want." But is
it in my hands to want?
KARL: What hands? Whose hands?
FRANCESCO: Oh, God, I understand this. Not today!
KARL: Not today? [group laughs] What is yours anyway?
FRANCESCO: I don't know.
KARL: You see? That's what I am pointing to.
FRANCESCO: Sometimes you say, "What do you want to do?" But if it's not in
my hands, why do you ask what I want? I don't want anything!
KARL: I have no idea why you want.
FRANCESCO: So I go home and—no, forget it. I don't go home. [group laughs]
It's too complicated.
KARL: Oh, Francesco!
FRANCESCO: Oh, I am happy. I don't know where, but this I know. [group
laughs]
KARL: This sounds promising. "I am happy, I don't know where or why, but—"
Yeah, that's good. So simply be That which you don't know. [laughs] That
sounds quite happy. That actually is that happiness that doesn't know if it's
happy or not happy. You must be very happy, the happiness that doesn't know if
it's happy or not happy.
FRANCESCO: I don't know anything. This is the problem.

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KARL: No, that's not the problem. That there is one who wants to know even
more nothing, that's the problem. Because the one who says, I know nothing—
FRANCESCO: It's so difficult to speak with you. Very difficult. So heavy. This
guy comes here this morning to ask you something, and bang, bang, bang
[pretends he's shooting a gun] in five seconds!
JAMES: I'm used to it by now.
KARL: I am a farmer! I have to cut at once.
FRANCESCO: You could take some time! [group laughs]
JAMES: There's a technique, Francesco. Here's how it goes. Whatever answer
you want, right, you suggest the opposite thing, and then Karl tells you—
FRANCESCO: Yes, I know that. But I forget it all the time. [group laughs]
JAMES: So, if you want there to be enlightenment, you say, "Karl, there's no
enlightenment, right?" Then Karl says, "Yes, there's enlightenment!" [group
laughs]
FRANCESCO: He changes. From stupid, he is coming.
JAMES: Now you've got me saying these things!
KARL: I got what?
JAMES: Nothing. I never said that! [group laughs]
CHARLES: [to Karl] He's giving classes on how to understand you.
KARL: In Holland, there was one who gave pre-satsang.
FRANCESCO: Oh, that is a good idea.
KARL: How to behave, what to do, how to dress, how to find a soul mate in the
satsang, and so on. [group laughs] But now he has a better position in a tantra
temple. From pre-satsang to tantra temple. Fantastic. [to Francesco] But pre-
satsang sounds good, no?
FRANCESCO: I think it's nice. To understand if it's possible to ask a question or
not—
THERESE: And after-satsang.
KARL: Or, make an after-satsang. [laughing] How to survive satsang. Sounds
really good.
CHARLES: Yeah, you need a hospital.
FRANCESCO: This is my karma. What to do?

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KARL: Karma. Karl-ma.
FRANCESCO: Quite. In Italian, karlma means "quite." Karlmo.
KARL: Now, Francesco, your new name is Karlmo.

Fear is there, but no one fears

JAMES: Karl, would you say, in a relative sense, there's any point to what's
going on here? Over and above entertainment?
KARL: Absolutely.
JAMES: Okay. Say more about that.
KARL: I would say that, without even one word I say, there would be no
existence. Every word has to be said so that existence can be as absolute as
existence is. Whatever aspect of existence is here, now, makes existence
complete. Like if you could take one grain of sand out of the universe, it would
destroy the whole universe. If you could avoid saying one word, you could
destroy the whole existence.
Every idea, every word, contains the totality itself. So, in that, it makes absolute
sense, but not relative sense. There is an absence of an advantage or a
disadvantage, but in that absolute sense, whatever is has to be as it is, so that
existence can be as existence is. It makes absolute sense. But who needs that
sense?
JAMES: And everyone who's here has to be here?
KARL: There is no one in it anyway.
JAMES: Yeah, well—
KARL: Any idea that's there has to be there as that form, that aspect of
existence, so that existence can be that Absolute that existence is. But there is no
one in existence anyway. So there is an absolute necessity, but not a relative
necessity of that.
Because That which is existence is Absolute, it demands that whatever
realization, whatever image, has to be as absolute as that Source. So any
reflection is as absolute as That which is reflecting itself. And without one
reflection, there would not even be That which you are.
There is only the absolute Heart, and the absolute realization of That which is
Heart, and in that absolute realization, whatever has to be has to be—exactly as
it is—so that That which is Heart is That which is Heart. So this is absolute

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acceptance, but there is nothing to accept. This is the total meaning of "no way
out," that this word has to be spoken as it is spoken at that moment. In whatever
given moment, everything has to be as it is, so that That which is can be as it is.
So there must be a Bush, there must be a Bin Laden, there must be all these
ideas, all these dream characters—that movie has to be, so that existence can be
Absolute, as it is. So there is absolutely no question that whatever is has to be as
it is. Otherwise, it wouldn't be. For some, it's quite relaxing.
JAMES: Yes, there's a certain freedom in that.
KARL: Already, it's quite peaceful. This is a peace of mind, not talking about
That which is, simply by seeing that, even intellectually, even being that spirit
which has a vertical understanding of that. It has to be as it is, so that it can be as
it is.
TOMAS: Still, it doesn't make any difference, whether you understand.
KARL: That's the beauty of it, that it doesn't make any difference. If it would
make a difference, you could control That which you are by that. If it would
make a difference, you'd really be in hell. As long as you have the idea it makes
a difference, you are in hell.
But by seeing that whatever comes, even peace of mind, makes no difference for
what you are, that's paradise. Then you are in spite of peace of mind or no peace
of mind, not because. So, blank mind or no blank mind—who cares? In spite of
a blank mind or no blank mind, you are what you are.
TOMAS: In spite of paradise or hell, you are what you are.
KARL: In spite of the idea, you are paradise.
TOMAS: But somehow knowing that also doesn't make any difference.
KARL: That's the beauty of it. Enjoy it.
TOMAS: Well—
KARL: Aw, it's very hard!
TOMAS: I can't enjoy it. Then it starts all over again.
KARL: So what?
TOMAS: No, nothing "what!"
KARL It will always start over and over again. You will never find an end to it.
So what's the problem? Enjoy it! "But then it will start all over again." Still fear.
Why? Why do you fear yourself?

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TOMAS: I don't know.
KARL: How can you fear yourself?
TOMAS: How can I not fear myself?
KARL: Because there is no Self to fear.
TOMAS: Sure, that's fine to understand, but it doesn't make any difference. I
mean, if I don't have a choice, how can you tell me to do something?
KARL: Who is there who doesn't have a choice?
TOMAS: I don't know.
KARL: You see? What you don't know, you fear. That you don't know, that you
fear something you don't know—what an idea!
TOMAS: But whatever it is, there is not an option.
KARL: That which you don't know—not an object in time or whatever—is
fearing what you don't know!
TOMAS: Right. But you just explained that it has to be this way in order for the
whole thing to be as it is.
KARL: No. Every fear has to be there, that's not the problem. But there is no
one who fears. As you just said, you don't know what is fearing and you don't
know what you fear. There is fear. So what? It makes no difference. Ha ha ha.
You just said that "I have to fear. No, I don't enjoy it. Because then it will start
again." [laughs]
JAMES: He has the sense of existing as a separate individual.
KARL: This is a far as you can go with intellect. You go to that point of
understanding, and then you see—it makes no difference. Thank God! But first,
you may become very depressed. Because you did so much for that
understanding, and then you see—it was all for nothing. Shit! All that seeking,
all that understanding, was for nothing. Shit again! Failed again! Ha ha ha.
And then I am sitting here telling you, "Oh, but that's the beauty of it!" What
you are cannot be controlled by any understanding or grasping or insight. This is
the beauty of freedom—that not by any understanding or insight, by any
grabbing it, by any control system of ideas, can it be controlled. That's why I'm
always saying that in spite of understanding, in spite of any control system, you
are—never because.
ROSA: I think we need an after-satsang. [group laughs]

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KARL: James will give a good after-satsang. James will share his clothes. Holy
James is always sharing his clothes of knowledge.
FRANCESCO: And what should I do today?
KARL: What's that?
FRANCESCO: What can I do in the time today?
KARL: What day?
GEORG: Uh oh.
KARL: What am I doing, meanwhile?
[A woman starts to laugh uncontrollably.]
FRANCESCO: This is therapy!
[That makes her laugh more. The group joins in the laughter.]
KARL: After satsang, she will tell you.
[Her uncontrolled laughter continues for a few more minutes.]
KARL: Ich warte Dir (I'm waiting for you). "The candidate has a hundred
points."
FRANCESCO: You're starting again.
ROSA: Is that called "eating up"?
KARL: Called? It's a call center. I'm a recall center.
An Australian MAN: Total Recall.
KARL: You've been eaten up by a total recall.
ROSA: But it's scary.
KARL: Yeah, it's a scary monster show here. All these ghosts! [group laughs]
Yeah, Rocky Horror Picture Show all over again. But it's nice music, yeah?
Ghosts can really dance. Ghost show.
ROSA: The ghost is out.
KARL: The ghost is out, but you see that it is a ghost. At the moment you see
it's a ghost, the goose is out.
KAATJE: That's right.
KARL: That's why it's called "a ghost," because it "goes-st." "Go-oh-st." [group
laughs]

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JAMES: Is that a new one, Karl?
KARL: No, I've used that for a while. [group laughs]
JAMES: You keep a few in reserve.

Even the idea of a jnani is ignorance

JUAN: Karl, doesn't everybody who realizes have to get to this point of
exhaustion you spoke of. "I was seeking and there was nothing to seek."
KARL: No.
JUAN: But everybody who realizes has does a lot of sadhana or techniques
before realizing.
KARL: I tell you, there never was any realized one at all.
JUAN: But does it make a difference for a given individual to watch TV all his
life or to go to satsangs?
KARL: No. No difference.
JUAN: There is a possibility for this person watching TV to realize himself?
KARL: Both may. Both have the same ability, not none. Both make no
difference, because by neither of them can you realize. When Ramana was asked
what was the realization of Ramana, he said that there never was any Ramana
who realized anything. That which is Self is ever-realized, so there is nothing to
realize.
But this non-event, to see that That which is existence is ever-realized and never
needs any more or less realization of anyone—in that moment, there was never
anyone who was unrealized. That's all. This is a paradox. You realize there is
nothing to realize. So there is no realized one left, because there was never
anyone who was not realized.
JUAN: But to get to that point, it seems that, for the individual, there is a
building up of energy.
KARL: This is all part of this consciousness business.
JUAN: But I never heard of anybody realizing himself in front of a TV!
KARL: Oh, there is even an artist, Nam June Paik, from Korea. He' a very big
artist—
FRANCESCO: Did you see this?

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KARL: Yeah, he makes a Buddha sitting in front of a television, an empty
television. He's always making sculptures of Buddha sitting in front of a
television. It means like Zazen, like nothing to realize.
It's hard to see that whatever you have done or not done, in spite of it, you are.
You cannot do; there is no way to it. But to see that—this is the way, to see
absolutely there is no way out of it. By no understanding, by no before and no
after, you are.
This is called "the divine accident," but it's not an accident. It's simply called this
to give it a name. It means the Self is realizing That which is, without any idea
of before and after, in spite of whatever is done or not done by whatever person
or object or consciousness, being in spite even of consciousness.
So, whatever you can realize, whatever is in the realm of consciousness, you are
in spite of it. But whatever happens is in the realm of consciousness, of "I am"-
ness, of coming and going, of Creator and creation, all that which is
consciousness, which is the manifestation of existence. But to see that you are in
spite of all that, in spite even of existence, there is no preparation for it. You
cannot prepare yourself to be yourself. That is this absolute experience that
nothing ever happened to That which you are.
This is in spite of whatever experience you had before or not. If I now would say
something you could do—that because of some experience you had before, of
light and this and this, that if you have this, you are what you are—you still
would look for something. This looking doesn't lead to anything. But you cannot
not do it. You have to seek. There will be looking. There will be longing. But in
spite of the seeking, longing, whatever your experiences, you are.
It will happen in one split second as a side-effect of whatever—by the way,
"Ah!"—then you have another coffee, because there is no event. It has
absolutely nothing to do with existence as you know it. So you cannot make any
plan or religion for it. All the religion, all the tactics, all the tick-tack, whatever
technique you use to get out of the tick-tack, is all part that tick-tock of time. By
no tactic can you get out of the tick-tack. This is like "tick"—and no more.
There is not even time, there are not even ideas, nothing coming, nothing
going—what to do?
But whatever you reach by any effort, by any technique, you make a religion,
and making a religion, a technique, or any understanding, you take it personally.
It becomes an autobiography of an awakening. And then you may say, "my
teaching is becoming clearer and clearer," or whatever. Whatever you say comes
out of that "my understanding," "my realization." But this is still ignorance. So
you add always ignorance to ignorance, because whatever quantity of
experience you have, even this "divine" experience of love, is ignorance.

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That which you are, you cannot experience in any sense. You are never in any
sense. So even those "divine" whatever experiences of blissful blah blah blah
light, fireworks—it's nothing. Images, sensations, fleeting shadows, but not life
itself.
KLARA: So somehow, you are a lucky one that you got that. [group laughs]
A MAN: We start again!
Another MAN: Come on, there's an hour left!
KARL: That's what you want next life?
KLARA: I don't know, since there's no way out. I could be a businessman.
KARL: Or maybe underwear.
KLARA: Or a bird flying.
KARL: Oh, always nice things, of course. Maybe you will be immobile
somewhere, not even knowing you exist, a bacteria or virus sitting in some nose!
MATTIAS: A nose full of reincarnations of sadhus, huh? Does one have to have
a coffee after seeing that, or can I have a lassi? [group laughs]
KARL: Whatever. What comes next will be next then. "Have another coffee"
just means nothing happened and you are in spite of that. So whatever makes a
difference in so-called life, the truth that you found that you want to bring into
life—my goodness. Then you define what is an enlightened one and what is not,
how should a sage behave, what should a sage perceive, and what is
enlightenment. All this is still part of that ignorance, of making frames for
whatever. Even the idea of a jnani is ignorance.
FRANCESCO: Oh, good day!
KARL: Good day?
FRANCESCO: Fantastic.
KARL: Fantastic, okay. But even calling that "ignorance" is ignorance. You
cannot get out of ignorance. But that's beautiful. If it doesn't make any
difference if you're ignorant or not, so what?
MATTIAS: It's like masochists; they also enjoy it. It's like enjoy it is another
way to say "no way out."
KARL: No, you are in an S-M relationship. Self-masturbate—no, self-
masochist? Some call it "master-bation." The master taking a bath in himself. I
didn't say masturbating; I said master-bathing. Master-basting. Master-baiting.
Don't take me wrong! [group laughs]

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KAATJE: I didn't.
KARL: No? But it would be easy! So what was your question?
KLARA: No, it was not a question, it was just a standpoint.
KARL: I was winning in the lottery, you said?
KLARA: Yes.
A MAN: Divine lottery.
KARL: Yes, but I got nothing out of it. But that's so beautiful! You get nothing
out of it. "Oh, you're the lucky one!" [group laughs] The lottery of gaining
nothing. You play the lottery and then you're happy. "Oh, thank God, I gained
nothing!" I have all the six numbers right, and zero in the pot.
Another MAN: Oh, they take the pot away.
KARL: You cannot smoke anymore?
MAN: No, the pot of money! [group laughs]
KARL: Okay, some serious questions now. [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: For a serious guru.

A person is one who hopes this will end

KLARA: How do you recognize a real guru?
KARL: Don't ask me. Every seeker knows better than me. Because seekers
make gurus. So you are the master. Ask yourself, what is a guru and what not.
There is always discussion. "Oh, my guru is better than yours, for sure, because
I have a real guru; you just have whatever. This is nothing compared to this one.
Just go to that one. Then you will see. In the presence of that— Oh, my
goodness, that one! Oy yoy yoy!" [group laughs]
CHARLES: Maybe the difference is a false guru creates seekers.
KARL: You mean, false gurus have disciples?
CHARLES: Yeah, they make seekers. Seekers make gurus, but gurus who make
seekers are a problem.
KARL: Dependency, you mean?
CHARLES: Yeah.

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KARL: Still no problem. But there are many concepts like this. They say the
Satguru is disappearing in front of you as you die in him. So he never makes
you dependent on anything. He simply takes your whole existence away, so that
you become That which is Satguru, what is Self. He will never try to make you a
dependent in any sense, for understanding or anything.
Anyone who tells you, "I can help you"—you have to run for cover. Anyone
who tells you, "I can give you something, I can transmit something, I can make
you 'pfft,' give you some experience"—it's fine, it's entertainment too, but it
would be not That. So whatever makes more dependency—I don't know, it's part
of the show, but if you look for That which you are, it will be radically erasing
whatever you are not. Der Sensenmann wird kommen (the man with the
scythe—Death—will come). Then it's Zazen. Sense (scythe). But this is all
concepts. I have no idea.
You just ask, simply, That which is the master himself, and whatever you go to,
it will be your master. At every moment, you are in That which is your master
already. So don't worry. Whatever is life itself is here, now, and always giving
you the right advice.
KLARA: I was also thinking about this, because why am I choosing to sit here?
There must be a certain force—
KARL: The totality is placing that totality simply there where the totality is
sitting. It's a total demand of totality that you sit there.
KLARA: And that I feel tense?
KARL: You play tennis?
KLARA: [laughing] There's a certain tension in my body.
KARL: Oh, you play too much or too little tennis? [points to a man in the group]
There's a Chi Kung master; he can take the tension away.
It's all sensations, whatever comes to that consciousness—movement,
vibration—interacting. What is your tension? There is no "your" tension. There
is simply a tension. There is energy in that vibration of that experience of feeling
there's a tension. So what is with this tension?
KLARA: It's just there. It's not actually a question. I like to talk with you.
KARL: Welcome. You have a question?
JOAN: I feel that I'm benefiting just by being here.
KARL: Ah, yeah, me too! [group laughs] It's an absolute benefit simply to be
what is. There is nothing to add to it.

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JOAN: I guess I feel that my mind needs to try to think this way more and more,
to practice it more and more.
KARL: We can talk about that inexhaustible need of that mind. As it is as
absolute as That which is existence, what you would call "mind," which is spirit,
is inexhaustible in realizing itself in whatever question. So there will always be a
question, answer, question, answer, "quention," quench, quench, quench,
squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, no way out.
That Holy Spirit of "I am," consciousness as "I am," always will create. It's a
functioning of that totality of consciousness. This is creating every moment new,
new, new, new—infinite, inexhaustible.
So there will always be again a question, a longing, a seeking, and this and this
forms and non-forms, and all this. If you really see there will never be any end
to it, because there was never any beginning to it—information, vibration,
consciousness, information—so what? There is only a person as long as there is
one who hopes this will end one day. "By my enlightenment, by my realization, I
will stop that."
But if you totally see it will never stop, because there is not even anything that
can stop, this is peace of mind already. There is mind, but you never mind,
because you see that whatever you do you cannot stop what is not there, what
never started, what never will end. What to do? I can only point again to this
Absolute you are, that in spite of mind or no-mind or any idea, you are, never
because of it. What to do with that?
JOAN: It's great.
KARL: It's not so bad. But that's the thing, it's neither good nor bad. You cannot
decide if it's good or bad, so that is very good. Thérèse! Still a happy failure?
THERESE: I'm waiting to see if it's going to stop. I'm like—ooh!—too good to
be true?
KARL: Is there a limit to happiness?
THERESE: [laughing] I'm really waiting.
KARL: [laughing] You just keep quiet. Steterstand (stand steady). Maybe you?
A Finnish MAN: Me?
KARL: Yeah.
MAN: I guess whatever I say, you will cross me anyway.
KARL: Never! I'm very kind. "Don't trust him!"

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MAN: This is my first time. I'm just listening. I think it's really good that you
cross whatever I'm thinking because then I might gain something new. But
really I don't have anything nice to say now.
KARL: No, it's good to say that. You might say something and it won't make a
difference. Whatever question comes out, with or without answer, it will be
"pfft."
So see that questionlessness you are, simply being That which is prior to any
question and answer, doesn't need even the fulfillment of that question as an
answer. There is not even the need of an answer. The question comes by itself
and goes by itself, but not by any answer. So in spite of an answer, it will go
again. So even that question "Who am I?" doesn't need an answer. It will be
there for a while and then it will drop by itself.
MAN: Okay.
KARL: What to do?
MAN: Nothing.
KARL: Just enjoy yourself, because this will take a while. Hello! Everything
fine? Do you have something? Just fishing.

The non-doer does the most

ROSA: It's not a question, it's just a thought.
KARL: I always starts like this, I know.
ROSA: My purpose to come here was—I said "was"— to quiet the mind. The
promise for me was that the place, Arunachala, and Ramana, will help me—I
know what you are going to say!—but that they will help me. [laughs] So there
is really nothing to do, because there is no one who observes, there is nothing to
observe the mind, the thoughts. Or the paradox that it's everything together, the
observer, the observed, etc.
KARL: Whatever you say.
ROSA: I feel my purpose is not to do anything about it?
KARL: Oh, that's still a purpose.
ROSA: Yes. Therefore I say, my purpose— Okay, there is no purpose.

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KARL: There is a purpose, but there is no purpose. There is time, but there is no
time. There is longing, but there is no longing. What do you say then? You come
and you see and then you go and you see.
ROSA: So sitting in a lotus position and meditating—
KARL: Oh, it looks very good.
ROSA: It's very fancy, yeah, but it's all—
KARL: No, it looks good. Isn't that enough?
ROSA: [laughing] It's never enough.
KARL: A rose is looking very beautiful, but it's never asking, "Why am I
beautiful?" So you take the lotus position, and it looks good. Wonderful!
ROSA: Half. I can only do half lotus. [group laughs] So, what to do? Nothing.
KARL: Even nothing is too much. Do your best.
ROSA: But that's pressure.
KARL: No. You can only do your best. You are the best you can be. The
Absolute. Whatever comes out of that All-goodness, what is goodness itself, it
can only be good. It cannot realize itself without that. Whatever you do is the
best you can do.
And it is the best. It's the absolute doing of that absolute existence. Whatever
doing there is, it's the absolute doing of that Absolute, doing what it can do
best—simply realizing itself. Whatever is experiencing itself is the Self
experiencing itself. It can only be the best.
ROSA: And the non-doer?
KARL: What non-doer? The non-doer does the most. [group laughs] The non-
doer! I had this man from Texas who said, "I am not the doer! I am the non-
doer!", and then riding a bike and then forgetting there is a street—boom!
[group laughs]
This is really the beauty. The understanding that there is nothing to do, even that
understanding, is fleeting. Forget it. You land on that understanding, and then
that understanding comes and goes. That understanding you have to nourish,
you have to keep, you have to stay in that clarity, you have to abide in that
understanding. But that effortlessness you are is in spite of understanding or not
understanding, of effort or no effort.
There is That which is effortlessness, which is your nature. This you cannot
reach by any effort of doing or not doing. So simply be it, what you cannot be.

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Be what you cannot be. Be be! You may come to some understanding, but that
will go too.
ROSA: So I'm going away empty.
KARL: For That which is you as absolute Heart, you are absolutely empty of
any idea of what you are and are not, even the idea of "emptiness," being even
empty of the idea of "emptiness," which no one can be. So you may come, but
no one goes. An idea came, but as an idea never came, you never go again. As
you never arrived, you cannot leave anymore. So the ghost is gone. The image,
the phantom, is seen as it is.
ROSA: And also there's no bottle.
KARL: You're right. There's neither inside nor outside—but there is. If you say
there is none, there's still is one.
ROSA: One?
KARL: To say, "there is no one," there's still one. If you say, "there's no inside
and outside," there's still an inside and outside, because it needs one to say that
there is no inside and outside, and that one is still making an inside and outside,
even by saying it. There is no escape.
This is still part of that understanding. It is still ignorance. Whatever you define,
it's ignorance. Any definition comes out of a definer, and that definer is a liar
anyway, so whatever lie comes out of that definer himself is a lie. The first
definer, "I," already is a lie, as it's an image, it's not what you are, as you are
prior to that liar. Out of that lie, only lies come. The liar is einerlei (one
something), and out of einerlei comes zweierlei (two something). German is
really—, or Dutch.
KAATJE: Double Dutch.
KARL: German is double Dutch, total Dutch. [both laugh] So see, even the lie,
the first image, the first mirror, the absolute mirror of what you are, already is
not showing yourself. That mirror doesn't show anything, so that is what you
are. Not anything you can say, name, form, frame, whatever. Even that first
frame of that mirror is a lie. Whatever comes and shows in that mirror of
awareness, as that first one, is already a lie, it becomes part of that lie. Then es
ist einerlei (it makes no difference; it doesn't matter).
So to see the phantom, the liar, already as a lie, who cares then about what
comes out of that lie? This lie cannot touch you. This lie can never change you
or move you one inch.

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A Polish WOMAN: The helplessness is, you see the world, but you are not in
the world, but you are also the world.
KARL: Also?
WOMAN: That which you are must also be in the world.
KARL: Must be? Are you a master? Must be? Forget it.
WOMAN: Yeah.
KARL: Still trying, clack, clack, clack.
WOMAN: No.
KARL: No? Must be. Okay. Whatever you say.
FRANCESCO: It's a wonderful movie, eh?
KARL: It's not so bad.
FRANCESCO: And sadhana is fantastic.
KARL: [laughing] As I always tell you, in spite of the sadhana, you are, but if
you could avoid one sadhana, you could avoid existence. So in that sense, then,
sadhana is fantastic. It becomes meditation without an intention that you can get
something out of it. And with that sadhana you are already that Absolute,
because there is no expectation coming out of that meditation. There is longing,
but nothing to get out of that longing, so that longing is meditation already.
FRANCESCO: Yeah, but for me to understand this, I need the sadhana.
KARL: In spite of—
FRANCESCO: In spite, in spite!
KARL: So enjoy the sadhana. Because that is enjoying meditation, enjoying
That which is meditation, because there is no expectation in it. When there is no
expectation, you see nothing can be added to That which you are by doing or not
doing. Then everything is meditation. You meditate about That which you are,
infinitely, but not expecting any result, as you can never gain that knowledge of
what you are by meditation.
So you are in spite of meditation, not because. And by being in spite of
meditation, there is meditation. Then you enjoy that meditation absolutely
because there is no importance in it. It's not heavy, it's nothing, it's so light.
Poof! It's a big poof.
KAATJE: No goal.

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KARL: Even no "no goal." You have no purse anymore, because you have no
purpose. You're all nothing. You have nothing to lose and nothing to gain by
anything. In Totale, habe nichts. Kann nichts, habe nichts, will nichts. How to
translate? "Completely have nothing. Do nothing, have nothing, want nothing."
A German WOMAN: Good for nothing!
KARL: Good for nothing, worth nothing. Everything you want to avoid, you
are.
An Italian MAN: I'm thinking about that meditation you are talking about. You
are gone. There's simply nothing. There's no gaining. There's simply nothing,
you disappear and then you are there again.
KARL: No, you never disappear.
MAN: It feels like that.
KARL: It feels like that, but that is only the sensation of an experiencer who
disappears, but never you. That sensation of being and then disappearing is all
part of the movie, but you never come and never go. You have to be unmovable
so that movement may happen, so that appearance and disappearance may
happen. What you are has to be unmovable.
That absolute experience you are is never moving one inch. So India came to
you; you never came to India. That body came to you, but no one ever came to
that body. Simply switch. You are not a child of time, but what you would call
"time" is a child of you. That appearance and disappearance are fleeting
shadows in what is you, as That which is experiencing itself, but you are never
part of what can be experienced.
So you are not the body that is moving to whatever place, the place is coming to
there. All the places, all the bodies, all the sensations are in you, but you are not
in any sensation. So out of that feeling that you go to sleep, sleep happens in
what you are, that's all. But no one goes to sleep and no one wakes up. So you
are asleep awake and awake asleep, as you are never asleep and never awake.
Both are appearances and disappearances, ideas and sensations, in what you are.
MAN: It needs a click to understand it.
KARL: No, it's not an understanding. It doesn't need anything. At that split
second, you see it was always like this. No one ever needed any click or
understanding or difference of perception. Even that difference of perception is
part of that dream. So whatever you can say, whatever needs a change of
anything, is part of that movie. But That which you are, which is prior to that
sensational movie with appearances, ideas, and objects, never will change by
any change.

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Maybe you? No. Something? No. No one helps me. Poor me. Maybe you have a
question, yeah?

When my understanding drops, that is devotion

MR. IYER: I read somewhere, don't pay too much attention to the words of the
master. They're not going to help you, something else is working on you. Just be
as you are in the satsang. Because in the satsang, several people are raising
different types of questions. Some are relevant to me, some are not. So, should I
pay attention to the things which are relevant to me and keep quiet for the other
questions, or are the others also relevant to me?
KARL: Be As You Are.
MR. IYER: Better the influence of hearing the words, or—?
KARL: No, the words have no influence. The words as a form have no
influence. That you are here, that I am not talking to a ghost, that what is talking
is no different from what is listening, it's all to see that That which is talking and
That which is listening is no different, in essence.
This is here, now, what is called "satsang," but That which is talking does not
talk to anyone. It's not what is said, not the forms, whatever ideas come as
words. Every word is loaded by that absence of separation. And being loaded
with that absence of separation, that listener and That which is saying something
are no different. So there is that nakedness talking to that nakedness, and that
counts, not the words, not the forms, not the relevant or irrelevant things. In
spite of relevance or irrelevance, That which is talking and That which is
listening are That which is, in essence, Heart. So Self talks to Self, as Heart talks
to Heart, as there is only That which is Heart.
So don't give so much attention to the forms and objects and words. Simply be
as you are, as That which you are listening to is no different from what you are.
This is always the message—there is no message, no messenger and no receiver.
There is transmission and receiving, but That which is transmitting and That
which is receiving are no different. So it doesn't matter what is transmitted, only
that there is no transmitter and no talking to anyone who is receiving. And that
absence of a transmitter and a receiver, that absolute absence of separation, of a
second one, this is called "satsang."
That is what is meant when a master tells you to "be as you are," and then see
and show devotion. Devotion means total respect by becoming That which is
your master, by seeing that That which is speaking is no different from That
which is listening, by being That which is speaking and listening, in that instant.

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That is devotion. By giving up individuality of "me" being a receiver, of my
understanding. When this "my" drops, that is devotion. And not emotion.
So I'm asking for that devotion, total devotion, by asking you to be That which
is me. I don't ask you to understand or do anything. Be As You Are means be
That which is talking, be That which is listening, but without any listener, and
without seeing one who is talking. So you have to see the essence, in whatever
word, in whatever comes and goes, in order to be that.
Again, these words I just said, they don't count. They are totally irrelevant. But
that they are already totally irrelevant, it's like they are erasing, annihilating,
forms and objects of that understanding. It's maybe that emptiness or that
absence of separation you are sitting here for. But this no one can make, no one
an create, there can be no doing for it. So what to do? Many words, huh? That's
okay?
MR. IYER: Many times when you've said something, I haven't understood, but
later I realize the fact of it. Right now, I don't find any difference.
KARL: The words make no difference, but if you see that words make no
difference for what you are, that makes all the difference. Because then you see
that, independent of understanding, independent of words, you are what you are.
Be as you are in spite of the words, not because of the words.
I cannot change what you are. I have nothing to give and nothing to share here.
The Absolute you are doesn't need anything from me, from That which is sitting
here talking. It cannot add something to what you are. I'm always pointing out
that there is no teaching, no teacher, and no disciple. Whatever I say is a total
pointer to that, if I am in a good position. The rest is—I don't know. So by grace,
you are sitting here and I am, by grace, sitting here, and grace is all there is. And
grace talks to That which is grace, telling grace, "Don't wait for grace, because
grace will not come."
A WOMAN: My name is Grace! [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: Thank you for coming.
KARL: Grace just arrived!
GEORG: Have another coffee!
KARL: So don't wait for grace, because grace is already here, and grace will
never come because grace is what you are. Whatever is, is grace. So you'd better
not wait for it, because it will never come. It's already here. It never left you, so
you cannot gain it back. You cannot lose what you are, as you are grace itself.

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So don't wait for any master or anyone to bring it to you. There will never be
anyone who can give it to you. And whoever tells you, "I can give it to you by
initiation, by transmission," or whatever, is lying, because it cannot be given to
you, as it could never be taken away from you. As you never lost what you are,
you can never gain it back by anyone, not by any word, transmission, shakti—
not by any experience you get—will you become what you are. Hallelujah!
A MAN: Is the satsang a symptom of craziness then?
KARL: Everything is a symptom of the crazy idea that you were born. You are
in a psychic hospital here, now, and I am the doctor who tells you there is only a
psychic hospital, but there is no one in the hospital.
This is like telling you there is no one sick because you cannot find that patient
you are. So by not finding yourself in any place—as there is a psychic hospital,
and all these ideas are part of that hospital—but by not finding anyone who is in
that hospital, there is simply a hospital, so what? So you see that you are in spite
of that hospital. There was never anyone in that hospital. There is craziness, but
so what?
MAN: It's fun.
KARL: Oh, it's fun, it's sport, whatever you call it. Olympic game of craziness.
MAN: Who's the master?
KARL: The doctor. The craziest one is always the master. That's called "crazy
wisdom." The master is always the most crazy; the peak of the craziness is the
guru. The craziest idea that you can have is that there is a Self or guru at all. So
on top of that craziness, there is a master of craziness. How much more crazy
can one get? It's all a crazy idea, the beginning of the idea that you exist. With
that crazy idea, the psychic hospital opens.
MATTIAS: Eternally open.
KARL: It never started, because this crazy idea has no beginning and no end. As
there never was any beginning of that idea of "existence," it will never end. So
you'd better not wait for this hospital to close, because it never opened.
THERESE: But what an imagination, eh?
KARL: What an absolute imagination you are!
THERESE: It's too much!
KARL: Too much?
THERESE: I mean, such variety, colors, smells, people—it's too much. It's so
much!

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KARL: And imagine, it all comes out of what you are!
THERESE: I know.
KARL: You know?
THERESE: [laughing] One first lie and boom!

Whatever you do about ignorance, you make it more

PETE: It's imagination. There are no patients in the hospital; they are all
imaginary. It's thoughts that arise in the mind. So, is there a corrective thought?
If there are these thoughts that create imaginary people, is there a corrective
thought?
KARL: You mean, is there a cure for it?
PETE: Well, I don't want to get into that trap of saying there's some
understanding, some breakthrough, but is there a corrective thought that kind of
backs you out?
KARL: Nisargadatta, he was making the ultimate medicine for that craziness,
that sickness, this disease of existence. You're looking for that one who is there
at all.
PETE: Every time my mind throws up the idea there's a person, then I have a
corrective thought that then reminds me, "Oh, I'm not a person. Now I
remember."
KARL: But this is depending on remembering. It seems to be that by
understanding there is a temporary way out of that mistake, but that temporary
way out is already a mistake. It's still a mistake. By understanding, you control
something, you accept that you are out of that impersonal consciousness, but
what steps out by effort, always drops back. At the moment that effort stops, by
whatever event, you're back into that. You are always depending on
understanding or some effort, alertness, whatever you call it.
But I'm asking you to be that total lazy bastard you are, which never has done
anything, which is in spite of doing or not doing, what it is, never because. Be
That which never was in any action or non-action, what was simply totally still
in itself, without any movement ever—for that, nothing ever happened.
So even that understanding never happened, as there never was any non-
understanding. There cannot be any understanding at all. So be That which is
absolute knowledge but by not knowing anything. All these are words and

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pointers, so that you will see in that split second that, in spite of knowing or not
knowing, you are what you are, not because of anything.
No one can give it to you. This is simply like when the heart is broken because
you drop the love for yourself. By your interest, by your loving yourself, you are
involved in these images, all the sensations—because you love yourself.
PETE: There's this imaginary person, and he came to this satsang, and he's
talking to this imaginary person over here, and when I look at the imaginary
person, he's done all these sadhanas, and I don't know why he's done them. I
couldn't stop him from doing them; he did it, I watched. He did all these
sadhanas, came to India, all these different things. I don't know why he did these
crazy things.
KARL: As I said before, all the sadhanas, all the action, every breath you take,
has to be done, as whatever is done is so unique and absolute in that action and
done by that totality. Without that action, there would be no totality, there would
be no Absolute. So whatever sadhana you have done or not done, had to be
there, absolutely, and the next step you will do has to be there, because there is
no way out of it.
PETE: As he's stumbling along this way, doing these sadhanas, this imaginary
person starts reading some books about Vedanta, and he starts hearing these
kind of satsangs, so then he starts having these corrective thoughts, what I'm
calling "corrective thoughts," that make him think about himself in a different
way. He starts thinking, "Oh, maybe I'm not a person, maybe this is just
imaginary, maybe this is just a film that I'm watching, maybe I'm something
prior to this." But again, this is all thought.
KARL: Yeah, as I said, you just add something to the ignorance that was before.
Only the quantity of ignorance is expanding.
PETE: And all the words I'm hearing from the imaginary person in the chair
here, the words are based upon thoughts that arise in the mind of the imaginary
person.
KARL: Always adding more to that quantity of ignorance. Whatever I can say
will always be ignorance. That which is—we cannot talk about anyway. I can
only sit here and talk and talk and talk and add more quantity, spitting it out, and
in spite of that, I am.
PETE: One person wakes up watching TV, another person does so many
sadhanas and wakes up, but it doesn't matter. He couldn't have not done the
sadhanas. They were done. They were there.

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KARL: Yeah. He had to do the sadhanas. The one who was sitting in front of
the television had to sit in front of the television, and that is meditation too.
Consciousness, in whatever given moment, is meditating about That which is
the Self. Whatever is consciousness is longing for that happiness, and out of that
longing, there is meditation for happiness. So, if you are sitting in front of a
television, you want to be happy. Everything comes out of that wish to be happy
all the time.
PETE: So if I go to the movie house, and I watch James Bond, and I start
thinking "I am James Bond," and when he comes out the door, I start thinking, "I
chose to turn right, I chose to turn left." And then later, someone says, "No,
you're not James Bond. You're watching a movie, you're in a movie house,
you're watching it, you didn't make those choices."
KARL: But then you are in another movie, that's all.
[The group giggles and murmurs, "Mmm," "Very interesting!", etc.]
KARL: You step from one movie to another movie.
PETE: There's some shift where I can be who I've been all along.
KARL: There's no shift. No! Never,ever.
PETE: First I thought I was James Bond; I thought I was the one who turned
right—
KARL: But even as James Bond, you are who you are.
PETE: —But all along I was sitting in the movie house, watching.
KARL: But that one who tells you that you are not the movie is still in the
movie. You cannot get out of the movie. You are That which is the movie,
whether you like it or not. You cannot get out of the movie. This is the "no way
out." You cannot go to another realm of understanding and then be out of the
movie. That would be by effort again and you would be depending on it. You
would still be depending on some understanding, on someone to tell you, "You
are not the movie, you are not the character." So what then?
In spite of Jesus realizing this Heart, there is still this existence, still seeking. In
spite of Buddha, in spite of Ramana, in spite of all the sages, there is still
seeking happening and seekers sitting around listening to what cannot be told.
So forget it!
AIKO: Is that called "the ultimate joke"?
KARL: The ultimate joke is that there is not an ultimate joke. There is not even
a joker. It sounds good, I know, that there will be a master and he will tell you

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that you are not the character you thought you were. So what then? You step
from the identification to the non-identification. You become the "I am." "Okay,
I am not in the movie," but that one who is not in the movie forgets and steps
back into the movie.
You have to be—in the movie and out of the movie—what you are. If you are
only in an understanding of what you are, what kind of understanding is it?
What kind of existence would it be? Is that freedom?
PETE: And it's not a question of just reminding yourself, like Ramana said, do
the inquiry, do the "Who am I?"
KARL: Did Ramana have a guru in the lifetime before he had that experience,
who told him, "You are not the body, you are not the character?"
PETE: It's not a matter of doing this kind of mental gymnastics of a corrective
thought that reminds you that you're not?
KARL: Yeah, but it sounded like it. You're walking around saying, "I'm not the
doer, I'm not the doer, I'm not the doer!" It sounds crazy. It's the same as if you
walk around saying, "I'm doing it, I'm doing it, I'm doing it!" What's the
difference? Corrective thought?!
Is there a "correct" thought at all? So I'm always pointing to that fact that in spite
of thought, correct or whatever concept you can bring up, in spite of that, you
are. So be That which is in spite of it and not because of any corrective thought.
PETE: Your words are pointers to the thoughts that you're having, they reflect
your thoughts, and they are corrective thoughts. They are correcting me.
KARL: I am correcting no one. In spite of what I tell you, you are, not because.
I have nothing to correct, as I don't see anything wrong. There was never any
problem, so there is no problem to solve. I am not talking to a ghost of
corrective thoughts. Who cares about these corrective thoughts and any thought
of any ghost anyway? Hmm? Do you care?
JOAN: I don't know if I'm going to interpret it right, but you were saying that
one who makes definitions is a liar. Immediately, this one is already a liar. So
are we making an action by recognizing that it's a lie?
KARL: That is part of the lie. What an idea that you could correct a lie?! This is
like the famous story of the "me" who, wanting to correct the "me," becomes a
policeman. First, there is a thief, a liar, and then the liar tells you, "Oh, I will
make sure that you will become truth. From now on, I tell you the truth. Before I
was a liar, but now I will tell you the truth. This will be a 'correct' thought. With
this thought, I correct you, as before I was incorrect, now I am being correct!
Am I now fine enough for you? Am I pleasing you now, or was I pleasing you

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before? Now I will please you. Before, maybe I was annoying you, but now I
will please you. From now on, I will behave. Oh my goodness, I give you my
attention again. You're very promising, my dear."
Consciousness plays both roles. "Incorrect. Correct. Now I can make you happy.
Now I'm in the correct position to make you happy, to fuck you right. Now I'm a
correct fucker, before I was an incorrect fucker. I'm fucking anyway!" [group
"ohs" and "ah-has" and giggles]
JOAN: But how do you make it stop? Correct, incorrect—
KARL: I have no idea. For whom does it have to stop? It never started! Who
needs this to stop?
JOAN: The person who is suffering.
KARL: Let it suffer. It's still the Almighty. "Oh, poor me! Poor Almighty,
suffering from an idea. Oh my goodness. Being so in love with yourself, taking
yourself as so important, then you suffer. Oh my Almighty, how you are
suffering by taking yourself as so important! I'm very sorry about you. You feel
my compassion. Hallelujah. The Almighty is suffering! Oh, I am suffering with
you now." [group laughs]
JOAN: We want to be free of all this!
KARL: Because you want to be free, you are in prison—by this idea. What an
idea! Freedom, wants to be free, freedom wants to be free! Hello, everyone
listen! Freedom wants to be free! Everyone understand? No? Okay. What a
joke! Freedom is looking for freedom. "Hey, look at me! Give me attention! I
want to be free. Give me freedom!" asked Freedom. [group laughs] Ai yi yi.
"Don't you see me as a person suffering?" No!
Spanish MAN: How many rehearsals this morning?
CHARLES: He's asking, how many rehearsals for this show?
KARL: Da Capo (from the beginning). Always Da Capo, Da Capo, Da Capo.
Kaputt, kaputt, kaputt (spoiled, ruined, broken to pieces).
Buddha said that the end of suffering is not finding the sufferer, that's all. So
whatever you do about the suffering or the ignorance, you make it more. The
more you want to avoid suffering, the more you make a sufferer. But you cannot
find the sufferer, that's all. There was never, and never will be, a sufferer.
The Self cannot suffer about the Self, because there is no second self it can
suffer about. So there was never any sufferer. So what! There is suffering. Oh,
my goodness. Have a drink. Prost (cheers for) suffering.

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THERESE: One more minute.
KARL: Okay, last question.
PETE: If the corrective thought is a liar, if any thought is a liar, and you're a liar,
and I'm a liar—
KARL: Isn't it wonderful? [group laughs]
MATTIAS: There's nothing reliable.
KARL: You cannot rely on anything! Everything is a lie. So you are totally
"irre-lie-able." Irrer.
THERESE: What is Irrer?
KARL: Irrer means you are totally crazy. You are craziness itself.
PETE: But you are a funny liar, so it's fun to sit here and laugh.
KARL: That's the only thing, the humor of That which is the liar. By seeing the
liar as a liar, liar, liar, it becomes all einerlei (one something; doesn't matter).
Einerlei means it's all Self. So if everything's a lie, then everything is Self. But
to point to truth, as long as you frame truth, you say, "Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie."
THERESE: It's like singing a song. "Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie!"
[Karl and others join in. "Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie!" Lots of laughter all
around.]
THERESE: Group singing. Let's make a CD.
FRANCESCO: Look what happens after two hours with this guy!
KARL: Thank you.
[Everyone is laughing.]

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January 18, 2004: The problem that there
is no problem; or, the end of worry and
boredom

It's the total demand of the totality of existence that

you worry
KARL: Okay. Everyone know how it works? Answer and question.
THERESE: Hey, last night I almost locked everybody in.
KARL: Yeah?
THERESE: I left the movie, and I went out to look for my shoes and somehow I
locked the door from outside. And then I hear boom, boom, boom, so—
KARL: That's famous. But there must be another exit somewhere else. Was it a
good movie?
THERESE: The plot was confusing and the English was too much. I could
understand nothing. The music was good.
KARL: You have to watch more movies. I learned my English from watching
television in America, so I'm used to it.
THERESE: I watch English movies. I'm more used to the British English.
KARL: Mmm. I'm used to Perry Mason. It's so amazing, because I learned my
English with Perry Mason.
MARY: My grandmother was addicted to watching Perry Mason.
KARL: Me too. Every morning. One hour Perry Mason and then ten minutes All
My Children. It was enough.
MARY: And a box of chocolates, she had. A box of chocolates and Perry
Mason.
KARL: Yeah, that's paradise.
CHARLES: All right, so now that we know what paradise is, we can go.
KARL: [laughing] Sounds good. I always had an E in English at school.

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THERESE: It's the worst note, no?
KARL: No, there's one more. In the German system, it's a 5. If you have two 5s,
you're out. One 6, you're out anyway. And two 5s, you're out too, but one 5 you
can stay in the same class. So I always managed with that 5. In the rest of the
subjects I was okay, but English—
THERESE: My English teacher had the most horrible French accent.
KARL: Ah, now we know where it comes from! Okay, then we start with
something—with a spiritual movie.
KLARA: Karl, I have a question. What did Ramana mean when he said to
"abide in the Self"?
KARL: Self-abidance? I would make a story out of it, because for me it's like
the snake of Shiva looking at his own tail. Looking at that movement and then
seeing maybe that abidance means you bite in your own tail, and by biting in
your own tail you see that That which is world is no different from what you are.
For me that would be "a-bite-ance." You bite in your own tail and then you feel
that That which is world is not different from what you are.
So that is compassion. You simply totally abide in That which is. You simply
totally go into That which is world, what is. You totally identify with what is
world, and then you see there is total compassion, there is total abidance in what
you are. So you bite yourself and then you see there is nothing different from
what you are. Sounds good?
But Ramana meant it a bit differently, I think. Abidance in the Self is like
simply being That which is Heart, which is prior to that "I"-thought, and then
staying prior to that "I"-thought. Being That from which the "I"-thought comes.
Staying in that Source, as that Source you are, by seeing that "I"-thought comes
in the morning into whatever form of "in-form-ation," but That which you are is
prior to that.
KLARA: It's actually not possible.
KARL: Nothing else is possible. You cannot not abide, as you are That anyway.
You are That which is the Source of that "I"-thought, what is Heart itself, and in
that Heart, the "I"-thought as an "in-form-ation" flowers or blooms. But you are
not what is coming as an "I"-thought, so stay in That which is permanent,
absolutely permanent, as solid as it can be, that Heart itself, unmoved by that
idea. That is abidance.
Be that unmoved Heart itself—which was never touched or untouched, never
shaken or changed in any sense—simply by seeing that "I"-thought already as a
phantom thought and staying at That which is prior to that thought.

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By being attracted to that "I"-thought, by taking it as real, you give it reality.
You give it life. But you are life itself. And by your life itself you give life.
Whatever you give attention to becomes reality. But if you give attention to That
which is attention, what is Heart itself, that is abidance. The awareness of
awareness. So stay in it.
But how can you stay in it? At first it's a concept, like a pointer, but that
question "Who am I?" maybe puts you into that mystery of That which is prior.
Maybe it can annihilate that story of "me," of doership, of whatever history you
can imagine, because that "I"-thought is surrounded by a cloud of history. By
asking that question, there is no longer an "I" who can collect history, and more
and more, that history of that "I"-thought vanishes into that awareness, as that
question puts you into that mystery. So it's a concept. It may erase that first
concept that you are born. And, without that first concept that you are born, That
which is "I" itself sinks into That which is Heart naturally. So stay in that
question. That's abidance.
But no one knows if it works or not. That's something else. But only by grace
you're sitting here, you're asking yourself the question by grace already. So
grace was all the time there, without any question. Grace was leading every step
you made in your whole existence anyway. The next step will be led by that
totality too. So don't worry.
KLARA: But this is exactly the point. I am worrying.
KARL: You're worrying, so that is actually what totality wants you to do, to
worry at that moment. Just don't doubt it. This is a total demand of the totality of
existence that you worry. And that worry is exactly the next step of whatever
step you do.
KLARA: I cannot follow that.
KARL: You cannot follow that, as you never followed anything. [Klara laughs]
You try to follow something that you cannot follow anyway. You try to
understand some mystery of existence, but you will never understand.
There will be total understanding when you are that mystery. Only by being that
mystery, there is absolute understanding, only by the total absence of a "me"
who is in the idea of "understanding." In that absence, there is absolute
understanding without any doubt. But in that doubter, "me," you'll always doubt.
Whatever is understanding or non-understanding, you will always doubt. This is
a functioning of "me." It has to doubt. Undoubtedly. So let the doubter doubt
what the doubter can doubt about. [group laughs]
KLARA: But then comes worry.

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KARL: Out of doubting come worries. For sure. Out of the doubt that you exist,
you worry about your existence. You become Shakespeare. Shakes by beer. "To
be or not to be." You doubt.
KLARA: Yeah, I'm very much worrying about what you said yesterday, that
there is no advantage.
KARL: But that there is no advantage is the absolute advantage. Just see it, and
relax in it. Because if you see there is absolutely no advantage for what you are,
with that idea of "advantage," the idea of "disadvantage" drops too.
Then you are free of that idea of "me," because this "me" is living out of that
idea of an advantage, that's all. Without that advantage idea there is no "me"
possible. But that "me" has to doubt, because this functioning then starts doubt
in that, the survival system starts.
So you have to doubt that because, by that understanding, "me" will not exist.
That understanding will simply annihilate you totally, taking that "me" away,
because that "me" is living out of hope and advantages. So that problem that
there is no problem— even that you make a problem, because you are living out
of problems, that's all.
KLARA: It's true.
KARL: Yeah, it's true—or not. [group laughs] That which is "me," like an
object, lives out of that doubting and that worrying and that advantage idea. So
whatever tells you, "there is no problem," by that understanding, you'll always
fight against it.
You will always say, "I have to meditate, I have to make something, so that I
can do something, so that I can own something of understanding. I first have to
understand, and then maybe I will agree. Me, the separate god of existence. I
have to make understanding. I have to first control existence so that I can agree
to existence. First, existence has to be tamed for me, by understanding, by
controlling, then I will agree to existence!" No? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The circus director always says that. But you are the circus, and the "I"-thought
is the director who thinks he can direct the circus. But the clowns do what they
want, never what the director says. The clowns are the other thoughts. And the
lions and the beasts. Hmmm? Maybe the penguins you can tame. The penguin
thoughts. Or the pigs maybe. [group laughs]

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The end of imagination
KLARA: I was thinking, hoping—the yogis are teaching that, at a certain level,
you can't fall back; it's not possible; you annihilate that.
FRANCESCO: You can't?
KARL: She means the supreme Yoga where, when you annihilate the first
thought of "me," of "I," the first "I"-thought is seen as a phantom and erased by
that being what you are, maintaining in That which is Heart, as That which is
Heart. After that total annihilation of the first thought, "I," then you cannot go
back because, without the first thought, there's no going back. So to control the
other thoughts is futile.
It all depends on the first thought. Go to the "I"-thought, directly, and simply in
that question "Who am I?" annihilate that "I"-thought, rooting it out totally by
that question. That "I"-thought is the idea of being born, of existence at all.
When that is really rooted out, totally up-rooted, then there is no way back. But
as long as this first card is there in that card-house of your concepts, that first
card will always make another concept. The house will build again.
You may cut some branches, but it means nothing, because the tree will grow
back even further. So controlling the mind is making it grow even more. You
have to go to the root of the mind, that "I"-thought. Without rooting that out
totally, it always will grow again even more, even making a religion out of it.
Then comes a religion out of experiences of whatever spiritual kind, but the "I"-
thought is still there, and it makes a personal history of religious experiences.
There are many enlightenments and awakenings and experiences, but they are
taken personally. And then comes a religion out of it, or a technique, or even a
Yoga technique, of cutting some branches.
Ramana was very radical, in a sense, to go directly to what is the root-thought.
Because without that root-thought, there is no tree anymore—never was, never
will be. That's the meaning of that supreme Yoga, which is the direct path to
annihilating the first thought, the first card of your card-house of concepts. The
first card of the idea even of "existence," the first notion of existence as "I,"
which is awareness, the "I"-awareness—already that is a phantom.
Out of that awareness—as the Father, Source—always comes "I am" and "I am
so-and-so." By seeing the first awareness, "I," already as a mirror and not what
you are, not Heart which is prior to that "I"-thought, you stay in That which is
prior, the mystery of That which is Heart. Being totally empty of any idea of
what you are and what you are not, there's an absolute emptiness which is
freedom of ideas of a second, of whatever.

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So the "I"-thought may come or not, but there is no one who cares anymore,
because this [holds up his fist to symbolize Heart] automatically comes as
awareness [thumb], "I am"-ness [thumb and index finger], and "I am so-and-so"
[thumb, index, and middle fingers]. But this [fist] is what you are absolutely. So
they [thumb, index, and middle fingers] may come or not, but they never came
and never will go. So they were never there. Even then, this trinity of your
realization [thumb, index, and middle fingers] is Heart itself too [fist]. There is
no difference anymore. This [fist] is the end of a total separation which comes
with the "I"-thought. Then there may be an "I"-thought or whatever comes out
of it, but all is Heart. So all there is, is Self, when this [fist] is what you are.
This is the end of imagination, because whatever you imagine then is no
different from what you are, as all this [thumb, index, and middle fingers] is
Heart [fist], in whatever shape and form it comes. Whatever is, is Heart. So there
is no separation anymore. No second.
Whatever you want to do with the "I," "I am," and "I am so-and-so," you're
simply wanting to cure something that was never. There was never any disease.
But by wanting to get rid of something, you make it real. So whatever you do in
"I am so-and-so" or "I am" is simply giving some reality to something that is
not. So this direct asking, "Who is that meditator I am?", going to that mystery
which is Heart itself, this is uprooting even the idea of "existence." And then the
absolute existence is there without even the idea of "existence."
It's enough supreme Yoga? Supreme. Some question about this?
MR. RAO: You understand that there is some technique, then, that you can
apply to the first thought?
KARL: Ramana was offering the technique of "Who am I?" This technique is
like a concept that will annihilate all the concepts of your existence, and then
finally, it will drop too. Say you have a concept of a disease you have to cure.
Ask, "Is there anyone who is sick at all?" This is the ultimate medicine which is
offered by Nisargadatta, by Ramana, by others for so long.
By that question "Who am I?" or "Is there anyone who is sick?", you are
wanting to find yourself. But then you have to ask, "What is this finding of the
Self, this seeking for That which I am?" Can it lead to some finding? Or, is it an
absolute "not finding" of what you are which is the absolute finding? Is it by
absolutely not finding what you are, that you are what you are, and not by any
finding of any object or concept or whatever experience you're hunting?
So you look infinitely and then, at one point, the seeking simply drops because
there is a resignation by seeing you cannot find yourself in any place or object or
experience. Then it's collapsing. And then you look inward for That which is,

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but even there, you don't find it within. So there is a "not finding" on the outside
and a "not finding" on the inside. So then, the total resignation comes, and you
stop full stop. Then you see you are already That which you are looking for.
So at the moment you seek, you go out. Then you have an awakening, and then
you go inside to the oneness. But even in the oneness, you cannot find yourself,
as you are neither the oneness nor the separation. Both are two sides of the
medal, but you are always That which is the medal itself, which has many sides.
But both extreme sides—separation and oneness—are only the sides of what
you are, so they are imagination. You are always That which cannot be
imagined, cannot be framed by any idea. Any idea comes out of That which is
the Heart itself. So you are neither oneness nor separation. You're neither
emptiness nor fullness. Whatever you say, you are not. Whatever you can
imagine and frame into some concept, you are not. What you are you can never
frame, you can never imagine.
So be That which you can never imagine. As That which is the eye of God can
never see itself. Even the "I"-thought, which is like the experiencer waking up,
is part of that experience. That "I" itself can never be experienced. Whatever you
can experience is no different from what you are, but is not what you are in
essence.
So abide in That which is prior to what you can imagine. And then, in that
abidance, there's annihilating, or burning out, of whatever is an idea. In that
awareness of awareness, there's this hellfire burning, and only that hellfire, that
holocaust, can annihilate the fire of the idea of "me," which is the devil idea of
"separation." So only that abidance in that awareness of awareness, which is
Heart itself, can burn out that "me."
But whatever the "me" does, meditation, whatever cutting, cannot lead to That.
You cannot avoid it, but in spite of that, the awareness of awareness happens.
But never because of any doing or not doing of any doer. So whatever you have
done or not done in your so-called life history—in spite of that—awareness will
happen of that awareness—not because.
Not sick anymore?
A British WOMAN: A bit better, yes.
MR. RAO: I'm wondering, if you sought inward, totally in, is there no part
anymore of existence?
KARL: Nothing will change by it. You simply step out of a separate
identification into that absolute identification where no one can be identified
anymore. So I'm not asking you to give up anything, not even a separate

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identification, as all these are aspects of what you are. I simply ask you to be
That which is, by identifying yourself with whatever is as That which is Heart.
But no one can do that. So whatever you do is avoiding that, because this will be
the end of you. This absolute identification will simply kill you. That idea of
"me" will be killed by that absolute identification, so no one will ever do that.
Whatever you do is avoiding that void of "me," because whatever the "me" is
doing is out of worry about his existence. So whatever comes out of that "me,"
that "I"-thought will be fighting against that. So even meditation or
understanding will be a technique to avoid that.
You will never by free will hit the tree of existence. You always want to make a
driving license to miss it. [group laughs] It is like that. That's the functioning of
that separate object and the survival system which is simply running as, "I want
to survive." So you want to become immortal and by wanting to become
immortal, you have to avoid death. You meditate on that immortality, what you
want to become. So you will never make that final whatever killing that is
needed, that Kali head-chopping business.
That's why it's said that by grace you will chopped, whether you like it or not.
But not by you wanting it. You can lift your head—"Oh, look, take me!" It
doesn't work. It doesn't know you. When you are after grace, you will never find
grace.
But when grace is after you, you'd better watch out. That watching out is like
trying to escape. Because you already feel there is something. You are already in
the tiger's mouth, and in one split second it will simply click shut, but you will
never know when. So you are always worrying. "Maybe—Oh!—What can I do
to avoid that?" And you are always doubting. "Oh! Am I in that mouth or am I
not? I must be in! No, I am not in. Am I ripe enough? Am I mature enough?
What can I do to get more ripe or less ripe? Do I really want it? Maybe I don't
want to be a couch potato watching television all the rest of my life. No, I don't
want this boredom of the absence of 'me.' No, the 'me' doesn't like that!" [group
laughs]
As I would know it myself. Yeah, we all go through this. And there is nothing
wrong with it. Simply see it as a functioning of that. And without one of those
ideas, there would be no existence. Without even one of those worries, there
would be no existence. Because whatever worry is there, whatever idea,
whatever aspect of existence, it has to be exactly as it is at that moment of
time—even if there is no time—that absolute existence is as absolute as it is.
So nothing ever had to go for that existence itself, because all that is what is
existence itself. All the little worries and all the little aspects of flowers and
blooming and clouds coming and going and raining and crying and tears—all

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this is what is. You. Not one aspect of it can you avoid. Even the avoidance you
cannot avoid. So don't worry. And as you are That which is Heart itself,
whatever is, is what you are. Even trying to avoid that is part of it. So what to
do?
So I am sitting here to tell you, "Don't worry, be happy," because even what is
worrying, that unhappiness, is part of that happiness you are. It's a "happy-ning"
because, out of that absolute happiness you are, only happiness comes.

Lighting the fire of absolute burn out

PETE: If you need to worry, for the reason you are giving, what part of you
doesn't worry?
KARL: The Heart never worries.
PETE: Where is the "don't worry," if you need to worry?
KARL: In That which is Heart, which is the absolute Source of whatever you
can imagine, there is an imaginary "I," an imaginary "I am," and imaginary
worries out of that "I am." But who cares then about that functioning, that
movie?
This is an absolute movie. You cannot change it because it is already shot. You
cannot change one frame of it, one aspect of it. In this totality of manifestation,
there is no coming and going. It is as solid as you are. There is nothing
happening. There is no happening. There is no passing. So if everything is
already as solid as it can be, and every frame at the moment it appears in front of
you, or in you, is a total frame of that infinite movie, then you can simply enjoy
the movie. You cannot change the movie, so you lie back into that absolute
experiencer you are, and you enjoy the movie.
PETE: If the movie is worry— You are imagining time, and at that particular
time, the movie is a movie of worry.
KARL: Yeah, enjoy the worrying.
PETE: So you can't not worry, because the movie is worry at that time.
KARL: But you shouldn't worry about the worry. [group laughs] That makes
you in the movie. You care about the caretaking and that makes you step in. You
become part of the movie because you care. You fall in love with the movie. So
by falling in love with the images in the movie, you step into the movie.

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That "high love" idea is maybe not so nice, because you imagine the movie is
different from what you are. This love makes even hate, love and hate come
together, because you step into that business of polarities—by love!
But you cannot not step into it, because you cannot not fall into love with
yourself. What to do? You have to be, in the movie and without the movie, what
you are, as you cannot avoid falling in love with what you are.
PETE: If you fall into the movie—fall in love with it—that's compassion.
KARL: No, no, no. That's not compassion. With falling into love and being in
that movie, already pity starts.
PETE: But you were saying earlier about the snake that bites its tail, and you
used the word compassion. I thought that was interesting. You were saying that
the more you're involved in this whole drama, the more identified—
KARL: Yeah, the only way out of that movie is to be the movie. That is
compassion—but without one who has compassion.
PETE: Be the whole movie.
KARL: In that absolute identification with That which is the nominal existence,
which never comes and never goes, there is no one identified anymore. But
whatever you identify with as separate from That, you are still on some landing
point of separate identification. It will swap again to something else. Even in
identification with awareness, you will go back to "I am"-ness and "I am so"-
ness.
This is abidance in the Heart, to be That which is Heart, which is the absolute
identification with the totality of existence. In that absolute identification, there
is no place, because it is so empty of "me." It is so full and so empty at the same
moment. So there's a fullness of emptiness. And in that fullness of emptiness,
there is no "me" anymore because there is absolutely no place for it. There is a
total absence and a total presence, both together. There is no "me," never was
and never will be. Then you are totally flattened by existence itself.
This is the absolute embracement of the infinite embracing itself. In that
absolute embracement, that idea of "separation"—whatever idea—simply
disappears, absolutely, because it was never there. There is no one who can do
that. This happens out of the blue. They call it "the outburst of love," or "the
outburst of existence," which is a total implosion and explosion into that
absolute identification of what you are. This is the "split second," because it's
not in time.
Okay?

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A WOMAN: Surely.
KARL: Surely. [both laugh] So even this, whatever words I can use now, or
concepts, are still only pointers to that.
PETE: That's always my problem. I am always doing it with my mind. I'm
getting into that state of mind of imagining that I am everything, but then that's
just another thought, another concept.
KARL: And by seeing that—
PETE: That's why I said yesterday the "corrective thought," you know?
KARL: Yeah, but that's what I told you. Even that corrective thought doesn't
help you.
PETE: Right because it might not come when you need it.
KARL: But that is helping you. That is the absolute helping, to point out that
That which you are never needed any help. You don't need any correction. You
are absolutely correct, even in being incorrect. So that futility of me trying to
help you, that is maybe helping you—to point to that helplessness you already
are, which never needed any help.
Whatever imagination, whatever concept I can give you, cannot change what
you are, as you already are That which is that Absolute. Whatever I can say is
only a pointer to That. But you see in the mind it will never work. Then you may
give up that idea that the mind can gain an advantage by understanding
something. And by giving up understanding, by seeing that understanding will
not deliver the goods, it drops.
The "jnani" idea drops and suddenly, "Oh, the jnani was always there. I am
understanding, and I was looking for more understanding. What an idea! I am
that absolute knowledge without any idea of knowing or not knowing. So what
is living out of knowing or not knowing—the mind—cannot help me, by that
seeing that the mind can do whatever the mind does, or what is consciousness
can promise whatever consciousness can promise."
So that devil of separation, of deliverance, can promise you something, but you
see absolutely it cannot deliver that treasure you are, which is being that
Absolute itself. It cannot be delivered by any idea, by any understanding, by any
insight. By whatever you can imagine, it cannot come.
There is no delivery system as "oops," coming and bringing you the goods.
"Oops, there it was. Oh, it is gone again." "Oops" comes, and "oops" goes. It's
like enlightenment. Enlightenment comes; then "oh!" its gone again. "Oh, shit,
missed it again!" [group laughs]

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PETE: "I had a glimpse of enlightenment, yesterday." [more group laughter]
KARL: "And before I could put it in my pocket it was gone. Shit. Next time I
will be more alert. When it will come, I will be ready with my purse— Ah, yeah,
I have it. Now, put it in my heart . Yes, I have it now. Then I can nourish it and
make it shiny. Look at it! I have it. I found it. Me! I'm in the God-consciousness
now. Me!" [lots of group laughter] There are many like this.
PETE: There's a very fine line between this and just spiritual burn out, you
know. You just get tired of it. You get tired of the struggle and you break
down—
KARL: I hope you absolutely burn out. And this question "Who am I?" is like
lighting the fire of that burning out. And then it depends how many concepts
there are, or how strong this "I" is still. Sometimes it is instantly gone and
sometimes it burns a bit longer. But who cares how long it takes. The end will
be the end of you.
And the end will be that you see that there never was any beginning. And by
seeing there was never any beginning of what you are, this is the end of the end,
the death of death, as nothing is ever born and can die, only death can die in that
split second when you see you are That which is.
No one can bear that "no ending." That which is this movie has no happy end, as
does a normal movie. You are always waiting for the end and then you can go
home, but this movie has no end, I tell you. [group laughs] You are so used to
going to the movies, and every movie has an end. But this movie never started
and will never end. So there will be no happy end. The happy end is seeing that
there was no beginning of the movie, but then there is no one left in that seeing
who can enjoy it. So it will not be in your presence.
PETE: It's not a mental enjoyment. It's not in the mind, this enjoyment.
KARL: Mental? Everything before is in the mind. You step out of that
imaginary joy into That which is joy itself. But in That which is joy itself, there
is no enjoyer anymore. There is no one at home. In That which is home, no one
can be at home. When you are That which is home, what is Heart itself, there is
no one at home anymore. And there is no idea of ownership or doership left, and
so you are not possessed by that idea which is the heart-knot, which is always
giving you this pressure of owning something.
"My heart." So you are always lonely. With this ownership idea, you step into
the loneliness of existence. Because at the moment you are identified with
whatever, the lonely guy starts. The lonely movie starts, with "me" owning
something. "Owner of a lonely heart." It's always there then, that sadness of that

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one, as that "I"-thought is sadness itself. It already is separation and like a
falsity.
You can never accept that falsity and that sadness. So that "no help" in that
moment makes you depressed or sad. Constantly sorrow is there. Then that
makes you seek. Seeking that happiness in an idea you imagine you have lost,
then you are looking for it any place, you even die for it. You will never know
when, but it will, it has to happen, because whatever comes has to go, so even
that idea that you imagine as a coming will go.
But no one knows when it will be burnt out by that. And no one can help you.
"Not even me!" So actually, as I am sitting here, I am absolutely irrelevant for
what you are. I have nothing to give you, nothing to take away. I can maybe
point to something but that doesn't help. So absolutely useless.
MR. RAO: But the pointing to it, that can help.
KARL: I have no idea. It's a paradox. I'm pointing to your absolute nature which
never needed any help. So this is not a help. No one is helping anyone. This
absolute "no help," you may call it "help," but it is not a help. You help yourself,
as there is no other Self who can help you.
But the Self doesn't need Self. So there is no help. This koan you will never
undo. What to do? I should be the most frustrated man on earth. Talking every
day about the same thing, and getting no results.
AIKO: Can I just tell you one thing?
KARL: I hope not!
AIKO: It makes more quiet.
KARL: But I tell you, the quietness which comes may go again.
AIKO: But still—
KARL: Yeah, still. Enjoy it. As you see that futility of doing, if it makes you
quiet, okay. By seeing it, first it comes into your spirit, into that "I am," that
understanding. And then it's resting, resting, resting more into That which is
Heart itself. It's simply disappearing into that futility, into that helplessness. First
it seems helpless, and then it becomes helplessness again. Because when that
helplessness starts, that awareness, it is naturally sinking into that helplessness
that is what you are, into that absolute paradise of seeing that whatever you can
see cannot give you anything, cannot deliver anything.
So it's not so bad. Putting you to sleep. I am a sleeping pill, maybe. You need a
sleeping pill today, Francesco?

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FRANCESCO: No, it's very sweet today. I don't believe why. What did you eat
last night?
KARL: We saw a good movie last night. Very bhakti. "Down to the river we
go." Baptism.
FRANCESCO: The title?
KARL: Brother, Where Art Thou?
FRANCESCO: Old movie?
KARL: No, four years.
FRANCESCO: It's not new. Is that why you're in a good mood?
KARL: I can blame it on whatever.
FRANCESCO: Sure. For you.
KARL: It can change any moment. [group laughs] As you say so. Something?
Everything fine? More or less. Mexico?
ROSA: I feel that I know less than at any time before.
KARL: Yeah, sounds good. Less and less and less and less.
ROSA: But I don't know.
KARL: Eventually, the question cannot come up, and then that awareness
simply burns out. That's all. So, question by question, coming into that
awareness of that helplessness or futility, it simply comes up, gets spoken out
and then disappears, until you become totally empty of even the questioner.
ROSA: Sometimes I feel good, and then sometimes I feel—
KARL: Bad again.
ROSA: But not really bad or really good. More even.
KARL: It's like, before, you feel bad and then good, like heaven and hell. It's
very polar. And then it comes closer and closer to that awareness line.
ROSA: Yeah, it's like that.
KARL: Then life becomes peace, like a stream or a line of peace, with fewer
and fewer ups and downs, without any ticks—
FRANCESCO: This is Parkinson's. [group laughs]
KARL: Ah, no. This is like the awareness stream. Even in deep sleep, it's there.
In daytime, it's waves up and down, peaks and valleys, then in sleep, you simply

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go down to that one-streamer. And then in the morning, it starts up and down
again. More or less, with emotions, touch, movement. So less and less means
you are going more and more back to that sleep state.
ROSA: Yes.
KARL: But is this being more and more detached?
ROSA: No words, no idea.

The family Karl never had

ANNA: Karl, I wonder if you can, or if you could, put across all these thoughts
to your parents or relatives?
KARL: If I could tell them?
ANNA: I mean, how do they react?
KARL: Oh, very nice. You think that they got a straitjacket and put me into a
hospital? No.
It was nice with my mother, because before she died, I was talking with her
about free will and all these things. Then she had a lung operation, taking half a
cancerous lung away, and she went into a coma for five weeks, and I talked to
her. When she woke up, she said, "Karl, you're right. I cannot decide when I die,
and if I cannot decide, even though I really want it—" She was really fed up,
with the whole movie— "But as I cannot decide when, as this may take
whatever time, who cares?" So then, after one year, she simply got it one night,
and then she was quiet.
But before, she was the most complaining person. I could not stand her. She was
Complaint itself. Complaining about her whole life, all the time, "I want to die
and boo hoo hoo and my mind and no one loves me." "Ah, shut up!" [group
laughs]
FRANCESCO: You said this?
KARL: Yeah, I told her, "One more word and I leave. One more word and you
never see me again."
THERESE: That's extreme.
KARL: Extreme consequence. And she knew I meant it. "One more word!"
[group laughs]
THERESE: Was that after the coma?

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KARL: No, it was before, but it was like a borrowed energy that I gave her this
consequence.
FRANCESCO: Then she went into a coma, because you told her to be quiet!
[group laughs]
KARL: But it was a wonderful teaching, this coma. It taught her that she could
not help herself. She really was ready to die at any moment. "I don't want to live
anymore! Totally. Absolutely. No. This pain, this whatever, no!" But then coma
and waking up, and then there was this breathing out of the hope that she could
decide. This idea of "free will" went. She was acceptance.
Then, for that year, she didn't complain. Everyone was so amazed. Even my
father didn't tell her not to smoke anymore. Because she was still smoking, even
with this hole in here [points to throat]. But no one told her to stop it. I told my
father, "One word of you telling her to stop, and I will stop you." It was great.
Smoking here and then the smoke coming out here. [group "ughs" and "oh
mys"] But she was happy. I said, "Don't worry. One month more or less of
smoking or not, who cares? My goodness. Enjoy it."
So that was like, sometimes it works.
THERESE: And your father could hear you?
KARL: No, my father was a different story. When my mother died and she was
in the grave, he wanted to jump in after her, to kill himself, absolutely. "Karl, I
cannot live anymore. Help me!" I said, "Okay, how can I help you? Should I get
a revolver, a rope, some pills? What should I do for you? How can I kill you?
How can I help you?"
[Silence.]
He became totally angry. [group laughs] "How dare you!" he said. He became so
angry at me, he totally forgot that he wanted to kill himself. [more group
laughter] And three months later, he had a new girlfriend. Fifteen years younger!
So much for "I don't want to live anymore!"
So, just to point out, if you are in that consequence of that acceptance, of that
ruthlessness, this is the only way. That is compassion. Not any helping, or "how
can I make you understand?"—that's all self-pity. But with that ruthlessness and
that concernlessness of that acceptance, in that moment you say, "Yes or no!" no
other thing, do it or not. "Okay. How can I help you?" With my total acceptance
of his wish, he was totally shocked out of that.
Everyone steps out of Kindergarten at that moment and grows up as the
consequence of that acceptance. Because this is so deadly. What to do?

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That's like here. If someone comes with some consequential thing, this
ruthlessness alone is pointing to that ruthlessness you are looking for. You're
looking for that freedom of concernlessness, moment by moment total
acceptance—in the next moment, there will be no next moment—being really in
that, so whatever comes, you can say, "Yes. So what?" Everyone coming here is
looking for that. Freedom alone, that absolute ruthlessness and concernlessness
about whatever is.
So this is a pointer, being an example of that maybe, being a running
advertisement for that ruthlessness. Look, it's easy! There's nothing more easy
than that ruthlessness and helplessness. Everything else is a concept of morality,
or whatever helping, and comes out of that idea of "me" of self-pity. But that
ruthlessness is compassion and not self-pity because there is no self who pities
himself anymore.
As long as there is an idea of "me," of self, there is self-pity, and you pity
yourself and you pity others. Only with that Selflessness, that ruthlessness, not
seeing anyone who is in any in danger, not seeing anyone who was born, so
whatever comes, you see no one gets hurt anyway, because there is no one to get
hurt, as consciousness is simply transforming into whatever. There is nothing
born and nothing will die, as consciousness is infinite in itself. It simply takes
another form. So what? If you are that immortality talking to that immortality
that is never born, that unborn existence, what is then to happen?
Years ago, I was working sometimes for my mother in the pub, and villagers
were coming, and the more drunk they became, the better I could talk to them. I
really hammered into them. "Aw, come on, have some more, you're not drunken
enough!" [group laughs] "I'm running the pub, so it's free beer. Come get drunk,
and go to the point of concernlessness, as you are That. Be drunken by
existence. Be That which is Heart, totally drunken by that nectar of
concernlessness and ruthlessness and freedom. Be that. So drink. Have another
one."
GEORG: Where is this pub? I want to go there. [group laughs]
KARL: You're sitting in it!
GEORG: I'll bring my glass tomorrow.
KARL: That's enough answer about my family. But the family I never had. Was
a nice show. Actually, it was preparation to sit here, because sitting with all that
drunkenness and old men complaining about their wives—it's not so different!
MARY: Your parents owned a pub?

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KARL: And a farm. Yes. So five o'clock milking the cows, afternoon playing
cards with some villagers, and at night, beer until one. And then, cows again.
MARY: They owned a farm and a pub?
KARL: Yeah. Still running. But I escaped. My sister is still there. She took over.
I am so grateful. Even when she acts like a mother, I am so happy.
MARY: What do you mean?
KARL: She has to worry about the kids, so she has to be mean sometimes. It's
her duty. She is a good mother. A good mother is a hassle to the rest of the
world. [group laughs] She cares only about her children, what they get. But it's
fine.
MARY: And you have kids?
KARL: Me? No. See, everything is a demand of that totality. If you are a
mother, you have to behave like it. You have to care more about your children
than others. So one side is facing love, and one side is—Grrr!—fighting. That's a
mother. That's the functioning; it's totally as it has to be. So what to do? There is
no one that can help it. The mother cannot not love the child.
MARY: Mothers are innately protective; it's biological.
KARL: That's what it is, protective. And if you are protective, sometimes you
have to kill someone else. It's part of that protection. Mr. Bush, protecting
Americans, has to kill Iraqis, because they need oil to run their cars. He's a
mother who protects America.
MARY: Father.
KARL: Or father. It's the same. But fathers go to war, and mothers send them.
[group laughs] Who is then worse? It's always the mothers sending their sons to
war. Warriors. Worry about the family. "Get something for me. I want to have
something on my table." It's an old tradition. What to do with it? Only we have
bachelors who want to get out of it. So that's about family business.
ANNA: Yeah, it's nice to know.
KARL: Maybe then you don't have to go to the "family constipation" seminar.
[group laughs]
ANNA: Of course.
KARL: Maybe you see there is nothing coming out of any person. It's just a
functioning of a functioning. So that is actually taking all the guilt out of
everyone. What to do then? They have to be as they are. They cannot be

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otherwise. As they are the functioning of whatever they are framed to in that
information system, genetic design, or whatever you call it, of history.
FRANCESCO: Not so bad.
KARL: It doesn't make them holy.
AIKO: My mother was more advanced than me. When she was dying, I was
thinking about reincarnation. That was my concept. But she said, "That's just
another hope."
KARL: Yeah, you see.
AIKO: She was very good.
KARL: She knew her daughter. All these ideas are only ideas of a way out.
AIKO: That's it.
KARL: "Maybe, maybe." Always like a ship on S.O.S. "Help, I'm sinking!"
"Okay, I am helping you!" [group laughs] Francesco, everything fine? Did I
touch on your mother too much?
FRANCESCO: Naw. For my father, it was something very different. "You think
what you want, but it is important that you work. If you work, you think what
you want."
KARL: But you have to work?
FRANCESCO: Yeah.
KARL: "As long as you do what I want, you can think what you like." Same
with me, no doubt! [group laughs] How is Italy?
MRS. ANGELINA: Strong story of family.
KARL: Strong family story. That's Italian. Mamma mia!
MRS. ANGELINA: Very heavy.
KARL: Even being an Italian mama is something.
MRS. ANGELINA: Yes, yes. Very difficult.
KARL: I tell you. What to do with it?
MRS. ANGELINA: Cooking, cooking, cooking! [group laughs]
KARL: Pasta, pasta, pasta—until basta (enough; stop)! And you never know
when basta is there, but until then, there is pasta.

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Between the wisdom of emptiness and the fullness of
love
MATHILDA: Being of the Self, you are beyond polarity. But if you live life on
earth, it cannot be.
KARL: You may say, you cannot bring it into life, because it will never be in
any polarity.
MATHILDA: Yes. I mean, living on earth is all the time polarity.
KARL: This relativity is simply polarity. There are simply differences. You
cannot bring the Absolute into life, because it is already there.
MATHILDA: I'm talking about in this system—
KARL: That's all there is. Even that relativity is That which is Self. But Self is
not relative by being relativity. It's taking the form of relativity or polarity. It is
That which is polarity, but there is no polarity. It's That which is polarity, but
there is no separation. It is That which is separation, and That which is
separation is not separated. That "is"-ness of separateness, that "is"-ness of
oneness, that "is"-ness of awareness, is always That which is existence itself,
taking the shape of separation. But that separation doesn't make That which is
Self separated.
MATHILDA: Every time there is separation or polarity there, I cannot
experience it.
KARL: It is the experience, but it cannot experience it. It takes the form of an
experiencer, and it is That which is the experiencer and it is That which is
experiencing and it is That which is experienced. There is no difference. But it is
not the experiencer and not the experiencing and not what is experienced. But
it's That which is the experiencer, That which is experiencing, and That which is
experienced. That's clear! [group laughs]
When there are three different things—a subject, a function of perceiving, and
what is perceived as an object—it is That which is perceiver, it is That which is
perception, and it is That which is perceived—in essence, as Heart is whatever
is. So That which is Heart takes the form of an experiencer, experiencing, and
what is experienced. But it's not an experiencer experiencing what is
experienced. But it's still That which is.
There is nothing but Heart. Whatever shape and form Heart takes doesn't make
Heart separated from what is Heart. So there is separation, but there is not.
There is a dream of separation, but there is no one who is separated. Clear?

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So nothing has to go for That which you are. Simply be That which is, as I Am
That. And then you are That which is the experiencer experiencing what is
experienced. So you are the "I," you are the "I am," and you are the world. You
are the "I," as the experiencer, as That which is the I of the "I." You are the
experiencing, as "I am," as space, as That which is the I am of the "I am." And
you are That which is the world, as you are the world of the world. So this is a
trinity of your manifestation. but you are That which is manifesting itself, so you
are not manifested, even in manifestation. You are That which is manifestation,
but you are still not manifested.
MATHILDA: So I can never feel it with awareness, because if I have
awareness, then—
KARL: Then there is one who has awareness. You cannot own it. In all this
trinity, there is no ownership. Existence cannot be owned by anyone. The owner,
the owning, and what can be owned is owned by That [holds up fist] alone. So
the owner [thumb], the owning [thumb and index finger], and what can be
owned [thumb, index, and middle fingers], is a dream-like manifestation owned
by that absolute owner which is Heart—by being That.
So the absolute owner of whatever—the ownership, the owner as relative owner
of owning, and something owned—you are in essence. That absolute owner, you
are, which is Heart. This you cannot leave and you cannot gain back. By any
relative ownership of ideas or understanding, you cannot become that absolute
owner. So whenever there is relative owning, you are not this relative owner.
As Jesus said, you can only come as the naked existence. No owner can ever go
through the eye of a needle. You cannot join me until you are totally naked,
naked of any idea of what you are and what you are not—naked existence itself.
In that nakedness, there is paradise. Because there is no one left who can be
happy or unhappy, lucky or unlucky, knowing or not knowing. All that—taking
that as real, as one who does exist, as "me"—is dream-like, you make a dream
real, and then you are trapped in those images and objects and you become an
object. But you are That which is Heart. And you have never left it, so you
cannot gain it back. By any technique or understanding, you cannot become
what you are.
This understanding is not an understanding; This understanding is actually the
total dropping of the one who understands. But this cannot be done by that one.
It happens by itself. As it came by itself, that falling in love with that image, it
drops out of love the same way, by itself, and not by any understanding or any
technique or whatever that meditator has done.
MATHILDA: And what do mean by saying you are a heartbreaker?

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KARL: To show you that love is not on earth, that you cannot find what you are,
that whatever is the beloved you cannot own. Because this love is like you're
embracing the beloved all the time, and then you are separate from what you are.
You become a lover and some beloved. Heartbreaking means to show you that
what you take as love is not That which is love. It cannot be controlled by you.
MATHILDA: Can you perceive it?
KARL: I would say you cannot feel it, and you cannot not feel it. You are
absolutely it, and that absolute being it, is absolute experiencing it.
MATHILDA: Because it's beyond polarity, I cannot recognize it?
KARL: You cannot not recognize it. You are recognition itself. Whatever you
recognize is what you are. What form it takes doesn't matter, it's still what it is.
You cannot not experience what you are, as there is only That which is Heart
experiencing Heart. In whatever experience, you are That which is Heart
experiencing that aspect of Heart. As you cannot not realize yourself, whatever
is realized is That which is Heart.
This is what you are. There is no difference between the real and the realization.
Whatever is, is Heart, and That you cannot not experience, as you are That. But
there is no moment without it. No experience was without Heart. So Heart is
That which is the experiencer, the experiencing, and what is experienced.
You don't have to bring anything into That which is Heart because the Absolute
is, even in that absolute separation, That which is the Absolute. There is only the
absolute Heart—in separation, in oneness, and even in awareness. All is heart.
Nothing has to come and go for That to be.
So you don't even have to bring anything anywhere, because it is everywhere
and nowhere. But it is nowhere and not anywhere. This paradox you cannot
dissolve. It has no place, but there is no place without it. It has no time, but there
is no moment without it. That you are—between both statements.
You swing between the wisdom of emptiness and the fullness of love. In
between, in that never-never land, you are. Both are sides of That which you are,
emptiness and fullness, wisdom and love, and you are That which is the essence
of both.
VICKI: If you are the essence of all polarities, do they become equal?
KARL: No. There is polarity, and then there is harmony in whatever this
polarity brings or not. That which is polarity cannot be disturbed by whatever
the polarity is or how it shows. There is no "how" anymore.

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It doesn't matter where you are in the pendulum's swing—as you are the whole
pendulum, you don't care where it swings. To that side, to love, to wisdom, or in
the middle—you have no discrimination of any kind. Because you are the
pendulum, you are the whole existence, there is no discrimination, as there is
nothing separate, no second you can discriminate.
Whatever given moment of that pendulum or on that watch, you are That. So
there is polarity, but there is not. There is separation, but there is no one who is
separated. That's the main point. It's not the separation that is bad. It's the idea
that you are "in separation." But there never was anyone that was "in
separation," as you are That which is separation. You can never separate
yourself from yourself, as Heart can never be separated from Heart. And Heart,
as That which is separation, doesn't know "separation."
MATHILDA: Slowly, slowly!
KARL: I tell you, everyday I can do that, and it's always new. Everyday, it's a
new hammer. Never get tired of hammering, hammering, hammering. Day and
night. Until the nail is gone. And then there will be another nail, and you
hammer and hammer and hammer. And another nail. And to see that for one nail
you hammer down, there will be ten others. Comes a music! Like words coming
out of that music. Always a singing heart. A hammering heart. Heart
hammering.
KLARA: This is like neti-neti.
KARL: Yeah, but an infinite neti-neti. You're drinking always tea. "Nay tea, nay
tea, I want coffee! [group laughs] No tea, no tea. Coffee!" So have another
coffee. Nay tea. No coffee.
KLARA: I'm free to have the choice.
KARL: Oy yoy, now were stepping back. It makes you choosy? Because you
have a free choice, it makes you choosy? Juicy! You will enjoy it even more
when you have a free will, or what?
GEORG: Karl, did anything change in your art after this event that never
happened?
KARL: Yeah, it was changed. Before, there was that "wisdom of emptiness"
thing, totally, and every painting was black. There were simply black paintings
and black sculptures. Everything was black. Emptiness! Black!
And then there was this outburst of this thing. You go to that emptiness and
you're getting totally empty of that idea and then, when you're absolutely empty,
the fullness comes. Totally. In that moment, total emptiness becomes fullness.
That's like this "outburst of love," they call it. When you reach an extreme point

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of emptiness, of wisdom, the fullness can come. Because in that emptiness of
Heart, it can contain the fullness of existence.
Suddenly, it's fullness, and from that moment on, everything was bright colors.
So it changed from that moment on—boom!—it was really like—boof! I was
really surprised. Black and then—boom!—the board was full of colors, bright
and things. But still, I make monochrome things, and totally informal things.
Total structure and out, out of anything. So both are there now, both extremes,
but nothing between really.
GEORG: And the painting is not just for money; it's for joy?
KARL: It's for money, I tell you. [group laughs]
GEORG: But even if the money weren't there, would you still be doing it?
KARL: Yeah, I'm stupid enough to do it without selling them. But I tell you, I
enjoy selling them, as much as I enjoy doing them. There is no difference.
VICKI: There's a waiting list, yeah?
KARL: I'm waiting for the buyers, or what?
VICKI: No, they are waiting for their paintings.
KARL: Yeah, I have to make some because they are already sold. It's a rare
situation, I tell you. [group laughs] After twenty-five years of being an artist,
this is really a rare situation. People see some, and then they say, "I want the
same style of thing."
VICKI: But in mauve. A different color.
KARL: Yeah, because my sofa is different. [group laughs] A bit different color,
please, so it matches.
MARY: There are some artists in this modern time who have the same problem
where they just can't get it out fast enough.
KARL: If you become famous. But I was always more proud to be not famous.
Because all the famous artists I didn't like too much. I'm more into the
"infamous." I was never into Monet or any of these famous ones. Actually, they
were too pretty.
MARY: Turner's pretty. You like Turner.
KARL: Sometimes I make an exception. Oh, in his time, he was not famous,
though. And I didn't want to cut my ear.
GEORG: At least not your tongue! [group laughs]

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KARL: Then I couldn't talk anymore. Then everyone would listen!
GEORG: We'd hear every word, Karl!
KARL: I would become Meher Baba. I would be very busy. These days, there
would be a keyboard, and there would be signs here.
MARY: Just to inform you, most of the time, he was using gestures, not the
alphabet board.
KARL: He had a translator besides.
MARY: Several.
KARL: But the last two weeks, he was talking.
MARY: Are you serious?
KARL: I have no idea. People tell me. They said that two weeks before he died,
he started to talk again.
MARY: It's so amazing, I'm starting to hear these things. For so many years, this
didn't happen.
KARL: Isn't it fun to make up stories?
MARY: Now they're coming.
KARL: Who cares if it's true or not? It's like J. Krishnamurti, you know, he had
stage fright. Two hours before he went on stage, he was on a psychotherapist's
couch. But then he went on stage and he was flamboyant. Everything was gone.
But two hours before, he was in hell of fearing to go. "I'm not worth it, I'm not
ready, blah, blah, blah." The whole thing. That's a good story. If it's true, who
cares?
MARY: Is it a story?
KARL: Ha, ha, now you are in— But who cares? It's always a nice thing to say.
The biggest teaching of Yogi Ramsuratkumar was there when he was in a coma.
Hanging on machines, being on strings, and then when somebody came, he
lifted the arm. He was like in a glass house. People could come and see him
being in that room, hanging on the machines, totally depending. And on the
auspicious day of Shivaratri three years ago, they turned it off. Just to make it
auspicious.
That's the biggest teaching you can get. The helplessness itself. He was known
as one of the biggest siddhi masters, but that teaching was the greatest I ever
saw—being that total acceptance, not changing anything, hanging on machines,
simply saying "Okay, what comes, comes. Let be what can be. So what?"

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That was the highest siddhi you can have. That was the almighty siddhi, that
helplessness, which makes no attempt to change anything. Total acceptance,
hanging on the machines, not doing anything. That I call "teaching by example,"
by that total pointer. "Look, nothing can happen to what I am. Hanging on
machines, disciples around me who put the machine on and off as they like—so
what?"
MARY: So Christ—
KARL: It's the same.
MARY: No, he went up to Kashmir.
KARL: That's another story. "Kashmir wenn du kannst ([catch me] if you can). I
go to Kashmir."
VICKI: There was an artist who did that in a museum too. He had an exhibit
called Visiting Hours, and he was in his hospital bed—in the museum!—and
people could come talk to him, and he was dying, of AIDS, I think.
KARL: The whole existence is teaching, teaching, teaching itself, all the time.
Every moment. It's just to point out—it's not that he can make a promise and
then keep it until he dies. Bullshit. It can change at any moment. "I promise you
this now, and I drop it the next moment."
MARY: Baba always broke his promises. Always. Endlessly.
KARL: If two weeks before he died, he was speaking again—
MARY: But I don't know.
KARL: Yeah, but who cares? It would be great. That would be a teaching. Not
one who keeps his promises.
MARY: You see, he did keep his promises, because he said he was going to
break his silence and he did.
KARL: Anyway. Just to say, the master is all around you, every moment. That
which you are is teaching yourself, infinitely, moment by moment, by whatever
is. The grace is all around you. You are That which is grace, surrounded by
grace. Don't worry. It's all by grace, and you are That which is grace.
So, by grace, there was Yogi Ramsuratkumar, and by grace there was Meher
Baba, and by grace is the mountain, and by grace is all that is. The coffee in the
morning is by grace, and the tea at night and the movie and the television and
whatever. There are no differences in it, as That which is grace is always
experiencing grace in whatever given moment. So what to do? You cannot not

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be That, so simply be That, what is grace itself, as you cannot leave what you
are. As you have never left yourself, be it.
That is the pointer of that mountain. Solid as solid can be. Never moving by any
experience around it, by any coming or going of any seeker or non-seeker.

Total doubt doesn't leave any doubter

Maybe you have some nice question or something? No, if everything is fine, it's
fine. I'm just fishing.
A Swedish MAN: Karl, do you experience our emotions? Do you pick up
emotions from us?
KARL: No. I heard of a teacher that only comes out once or twice a year
because he cannot stand seekers around him. It gives him headache. I am not in
that field. I know what he means, but then the back door is not really open. I
know the headache coming and going, but who cares about it?
I know when there is consciousness sitting there and being in that whatever
experience of kundalini, those experiences of fire coming, that inner fire, this
energy in the cells, energy coming and going, what is called "shakti,"
transformation of cells and things. Every experience, whatever exists, this
extreme—I feel it. But who cares? In a way, this body can take everything. It's
strange. Because the concernlessness is there, it simply goes in and out, likes
waves of vibration and energy. And as they are no different from what I am,
who cares?
There is no "my vibration" and "your vibration." All this is what I am. So it's not
touching anything. It's simply energy penetrating energy, in a way, vibration
penetrating vibration, and then all that vibration is what I am as consciousness,
as total. So what to do with it?
I don't call them emotions. There is simply vibration of consciousness, here and
now, as forms, at emotional and whatever levels. There are vibrations of energy,
taking form or taking emotional form of energy, and they are all here, the
totality, sitting here, as awareness. What to do? Enjoy the show.
It's like this filter system is simply not running anymore. There is no armor.
Without a filter in front of you, there is no filter in back of you. The un-filter!
There is no one here who collects the experiences. Without that "collector" idea,
or ownership idea, it comes and goes as waves. Infinite waves of experiences of
what you are.

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So that is maybe called "compassion," because there is no filter system. There is
no pity. There is nothing that collects them. And without a collector, they simply
come and go.
As there is this "collector" idea and you are in that "collector" idea, you collect
experiences and emotions, even of others. Not only your own emotions, you
collect the emotions of what you are surrounded by. "Oh, here is a black one;
here is a dark one; oh, he is lusty. All these lusty people around me!" [group
laughs]
A Japanese MAN: Does a jivanmukta know when he is a jivanmukta?
KARL: No.
MAN: So you cannot say you are in the same state as Ramana Maharshi or
another like him?
KARL: There is no state. The statelessness, you mean? I could not say. Ramana
was pointing to that statelessness, which is the absolute mystery of that absolute
existence, that "I am." About all the other states, there are different concepts
maybe. But That, you cannot talk about, it is not a concept.
Everything else that you can name and frame, I can maybe agree or not agree
with Ramana. But about That, there is no disagreement. There is no possibility
of a disagreement, because That you cannot frame anyway. That statelessness
which has no form or even non-form, what he was talking about, Heart itself, is
what I was referring to, and there is no doubt. There is a total agreement,
absolute agreement about That, to be That.
MAN: You don't have any doubts about the authority of what you're saying?
KARL: No. Even the doubting, I don't doubt. As I know everything is a lie
anyway, everything I say has total doubt in it. And this total doubt doesn't leave
any doubter. So in that total doubt, there is no doubter anymore.
So whatever I can say cannot bring you anything, cannot frame what is truth
itself, as I can never talk about That which is truth. So whatever I say anyway,
makes no difference. There's a total irrelevance in it. There's a total irrelevance
of saying, of singing, of doing, whatever. This total doubting is freedom. So I
totally doubt what I say. Absolutely!
Whatever can be said, what can be put in any frame of words, cannot touch That
which is existence itself. For That which I am, nothing ever happened. Talking
or not talking cannot change what I am. So I can doubt or not doubt. There is a
total concernlessness about whatever is.

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That's what Ramana was always pointing to, That which is Heart itself, which
you cannot doubt. For doubting and not doubting, you have to exist prior to that
doubting and not doubting. But That which is prior to that doubting and not
doubting, you cannot doubt. That nakedness of existence, you cannot doubt.
Even in doubting, you have to exist. This is Ramakrishna's basic teaching too.
It comes always back to that. In spite of knowing or not knowing, you are. In
spite of doubting or not doubting, you are. Totally in spite of whatever you say
or don't say, whatever you experience or don't experience, you are. That's what
I'm talking about. I'm pointing to it, but I cannot frame it into any concept. Even
that is a concept. Concept, concept, concept, but it makes no difference. Even
with all the differences in pointers, they all still only point to that pointlessness.
They cannot make the point that they are pointing to. Inexhaustible.
The only thing I can say is, day by day I talk about it, and it's always like—you.
It comes out of this inexhaustible mystery. I don't know. But That I am. It seems
like I can never get enough about it. Or, it cannot get enough of what comes out
of this mouth, who knows? Who cares?
Francesco, do you care? Today was nice?
FRANCESCO: I don't believe it. It was nice. I don't want to mess it up.
KARL: Normally, he complains I am too rough.
ANTONIO: Twenty more minutes, Francesco! [group laughs]
KARL: Better watch out!
A WOMAN: It's so boring somehow, if you are not the doer. There is nothing to
do—
KARL: Yeah, boredom will kill you.
WOMAN: It's very boring.
KARL: I hope so. I absolutely hope that boredom will kill you. I hope boredom,
what can be boredom, will kill that bored one. Because that "me" is always
bored.
WOMAN: I know.
KARL: It's so boring, that "me"! It's always bored, looking for more exciting
information, always wanting more. This hunger for excitement never gets
satisfied. I hope it will be killed by boredom alone. Because that boring "me,"
it's always boring.
WOMAN: Whatever I do, whatever gets done, it's not by me. So it's boring
anyway.

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KARL: It's not done by you? Who says so?
WOMAN: It's just done anyway.
KARL: It's not done anyway! Everything, whatever is done or not done, is
because of you! You are absolutely responsible for all action and non-action, for
whatever existence is and is not. It's all you.
WOMAN: I cannot influence it.
KARL: You cannot influence it? But you are the absolute Source of it. What
higher influence could there be, as you are the absolute Source of whatever is
and is not? Everything is by you. How much more influence would you like?
Hmm? Tell me, please. Maybe I can fulfill your wish.
WOMAN: [laughing] It would still be boredom.
KARL: It would for that "me," which is boredom itself, because you are boring
as a "me" anyway. Any person is totally boring, the idea of "boredom." So what
to do with this boring idea of "me"? Always boring, boring, boring, drilling into
some object. Everyday has to eat, everyday has to digest, everyday has to shit—
all those personal things you have to do. This history of a person, of a "me," is
boring anyway. Any history is boring.
THERESE: But there's another side too, Karl.
KARL: What side?
THERESE: Like this kind of easiness I seem to be experiencing. I find it to be
boring.
KARL: Yeah, I hope so. You will be kicked out by boredom, as "Thérèse" is
boring anyway.
THERESE: Nothing is coming up.
KARL: So what?
THERESE: I'd actually prefer if it were more up and down. [group laughs]
KARL: [to the rest of the group] You see, the complaining never stops! [more
group laughter]
THERESE: I'm a Pisces like your mother.
KARL: She's a monkey [in Chinese astrology] and a Pisces like my mother. See,
a complainer is born of that. It's never right for them anyway. That's perfect
teaching. You can do whatever you like. If you have a relationship with
someone like this, you give up very soon. [group laughs]

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THERESE: But maybe after the coma, something will happen!
KARL: What an idea! You're fearing yourself, because when you are yourself,
you fear it's too boring. Nice excuse, I tell you. [laughs] The Almighty is saying,
"Oh, maybe I better not be myself, because maybe it's too boring. I'd better be a
miserable seeker, and be in that misery, then at least I have some
entertainment!"
[People in the group are gasping from laughing so hard.]
KARL: "No, it's not for me, I don't like it. I don't want to be it, because this
movie I don't like. It's too boring. I'd rather be in hell and burning and being
nailed and the devil comes and every thought is burning me. Yes. But this
thoughtlessness, no, it's too boring for me. Me, the devil, I need some hell."
THERESE: You would be bored if you were thoughtlessness. You'd have
nothing to talk about.
KARL: What is all this?
THERESE: Of course, I'm meant to complain.
KARL: The devil will always be bored by everything, even by hell, because
boredom is the place of hell and that is the place of the devil—you! "Devil
Thérèse," another boredom of hell.
THERESE: Walking boredom.
KARL: Walking hell. The name of boredom is "Thérèse." Whatever comes will
not satisfy you. That's what you mean. So even that before, and whatever comes
then, will not satisfy you.
THERESE: It's just interesting to see all this. Just watching.
KARL: [laughing] Interesting? Aw!
THERESE: [laughing] No. Everything is fine with me. [group laughs]

Be That which cannot be imagined

VICKI: But to not be the doer doesn't mean to do nothing. It means you still
have to act as though you are the doer while you are on the planet.
KARL: No. This stepping out of the doership into non-doership is still doership.
Simply you change identification. First you identify with doing, then you
identify with non-doing. It makes no difference. You are still in the hell of doing
or not doing.

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VICKI: Yeah, but what if you're not doing? What if you take it literally and
don't do? Then you're not functioning.
KARL: But even the non-doing is doing. You're doing nothing and that's even
more. You're doing nothing and that is a big one, I tell you. You cannot not do.
VICKI: That's what I'm saying. You have to do.
KARL: But have you done anything at all?
[Vicki sighs.]
KARL: You mean, what you think you are is the body and the body has to
function as consciousness has to function. Whatever has a form has to function
as a form. And then there is doing and not-doing, and those ideas coming, one
by one, out of it.
VICKI: Yeah, but I don't have to take credit.
KARL: What credit? Who then doesn't have to take credit? For what? Who
needs this difference? And who makes a difference? Who needs that
understanding and who wants to control that then by that understanding? Who
wants to control doing and non-doing by that understanding of a "non-doer"
idea? Who needs that?
VICKI: I don't know.
KARL: "Me!" [Vicki laughs] It's the same as you wanting to step out of
identification to non-identification. Who needs it? Me. You step into the oneness
of non-identification for a while, then you get bored and you step back. "Oh, it's
sweet, but actually, it's boring." The devil will always find a way to step back
into that more hell-like but exciting separation. "Oh, I'd rather seek!" [group
laughs]
BERTA: But when it's a divine accident, whatever happens to you, you cannot
help it. You come into this boredom and non-boredom, and nothing is good
enough.
KARL: That's what I said.
BERTA: We have this desire, this longing, to be That which you are talking
about. That's why I am sitting here. I cannot get enough of what you talk about,
but I also cannot stand it that I cannot be anything.
KARL: Yeah, see. The paradox is there.
BERTA: But you have it easy, talking from there. [group laughs]
KARL: Come on up to the chair. Let's share the chair.

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BERTA: And then whatever you say, I hear this group start to say. It's like a
parrot. You say you are establishing that, so to say, and I am talking from my
personal "Berta" thing, trying to get it and doing this and that, and it doesn't
help.
KARL: Yeah, I hope so.
BERTA: Yeah, I hope so! [group laughs] It's actually agony, you know, to feel
all the time that I still didn't get it.
KARL: I tell you again and again, because we've had this discussion for three
years, [shouting] you will never get it!
BERTA: That is what I feel.
KARL: I hope so. Never, ever, anyone got it. That's the beauty of that
freedom—that you cannot have it. You cannot put it in your pocket and take it
home.
FRANCESCO: Are you sure? [group laughs]
KARL: What kind of freedom would it be if you could put it in your pocket and
take it home? That's what makes a person. A person wants to be happy all the
time.
BERTA: I can't help it.
KARL: I don't say it's wrong. That's the idea of "person," a personal
advantage—having that advantage of being happy all the time.
BERTA: Yeah.
KARL: But by wanting to be happy, you are unhappy. By wanting to be excited
or in amazement, you are "unamazed." Simply by wanting to be what you are,
you are out of what you are.
BERTA: But you cannot help it.
KARL: No one else can be it for you.
BERTA: I know that. There's also nothing in it that I know it.
KARL: I hope so.
BERTA: So you see, it's still—
KARL: Yeah, I see, you are still enjoyed by what you are, whether you like it or
not. And that's the beauty of what you are, you don't have to like yourself to be
yourself.

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BERTA: This morning I woke up and I was thinking, "Oh, I'm actually behind
it. All these words that I say, I am behind it, as the cow in the street, as
everything, I am behind it. I'm That which you've been talking about.
KARL: Prior, you mean?
BERTA: But that is then a kind of parrot-like talk. So then I say, "Let's have
another smoke," [group laughs] because then there's nothing. When I come to
India, at first I get a whole bunch of talking, and I'm very excited, but then it
seems so normal. And now I come to this frame of mind of yours, and it's all
empty.
KARL: Yeah, but isn't it nice, isn't it great? I can make these beautiful words,
and you can feel—ah, bah, fantastic!—and finally you see that they don't help.
But that is the absolute help, that you see that—not by any understanding, by
any fine words, by any beauty of words or whatever—there will be nothing ever
that can help you.
This is there because grace shows you. That total resignation is grace. You
resign whatever may come as able to give something to you. You resign that, by
any understanding of words, by any experience, by any technique, you can
become what you are. In that absolute resignation, that absolute stopping, the
total full stop, you are what you are, and it was simply there, without any
coming and going. So in that split second, nothing ever happened. Maybe it's
like preparing you, by seeing that no beautiful words can ever satisfy you. There
will be no satisfaction on earth, from anything.
BERTA: That I know by now.
KARL: You see?
BERTA: After fifty-five years, I know that.
KARL: You think you know. So grace is working. Resignation works.
It's really like a picture. By whatever accident, you sign into that universal
seeking, longing of consciousness, meditating about what you are. And by
accident, you resign from it. So you sign into that universe, or that school, but
by finding it cannot deliver the knowledge you're looking for, you sign out. But
then, by that absolute signing out of that idea that you can get something out of
that experience, suddenly there is that absolute knowledge of what you are. And
it was never gone.
But first you have to look, you have to listen, just to see, "Oh, it's not there, not
there, not there. Neti-neti, neti-neti. Okay, full stop." Then it is there suddenly,
so what, and then you step out again, because you cannot not step out. You sign
in again, and then you sign out again.

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That was what Ramana was referring to with the spider that wakes up, spins the
network of the universe, and then out of the blue, withdraws it again. But not
because of anything. In spite of whatever necessity, it does it. There is no
necessity to become a spider spinning the universe, and there is no necessity to
withdraw it. It's simply out of the blue.
No one knows why. There is no "why" in anything. It's simply Self-
entertainment. Signing into the universe and signing out of it. Hallelujah.
Infinite. So you have to be in the universe, just as you have to be out of the
universe. There is no difference for what you are, as you can never leave what
you are. And you never left—even while signing into that, being a seeker,
longing—what you are.
ANNA: And to put it in words, we are talking then about Self-realization.
KARL: Then you realize that there is nothing to realize, because whatever is
Self is ever-realized, and whatever is not Self will never realize. You simply see
that there never was any "no-Self." This is a paradox—you realize that there is
nothing to realize. That which is Self is ever-realized, and that which is a pot
will never realize itself.
You step into the problem that there is no problem. That is called "depression."
That is called "boredom," because then you become the bored one, the bored
person. Because when there is no problem, the person who was living out of
problems gets bored. Then it creates even— But don't worry. That there is no
problem, this problem is big enough for that "me." It can work with that problem
forever. Don't worry.
A WOMAN: This is a big problem. Everything becoming like "no problem."
Then we are bored for a while—
KARL: And then you step back. Both are trying to control. You think you step
into that emptiness or absence, and by that stepping into it by your whatever
effort, you want to control again That which is existence. You still want to put
freedom into your pocket. What an idea!
THERESE: And when you see all that so clearly—that even when there's no
problem, you manage to create a problem out of it—there is nothing to do about
it.
KARL: What to do then? Who sees it then? It will always step back into those
"doership" and "non-doership" ideas, identified consciousness, non-identified
consciousness—it's an infinite game. Forget it.
Consciousness cannot deliver the goods. Consciousness is as dumb as dumb can
be. That's why Nisargadatta said that, prior to consciousness, you are.

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Consciousness is your dream. But you are the absolute dreamer. You are, with
and without consciousness, what you are. Even consciousness is a dream.
BERTA: Is there never any relief?
KARL: No? Okay. [sings] "This will be the last time, this will not be the last
time." Nisargadatta said you are prior to consciousness. So I'm not the first one,
and for sure not the last one, who says consciousness is your manifestation, but
you are not your manifestation. You are That which is manifesting itself, but
you are not the manifestation. The manifestation is no different from what you
are, so even that manifestation is imagining, but what is imagining all that can
be imagined is That which cannot be imagined.
A German WOMAN: Very clear.
FRANCESCO: But this is abidance.
KARL: That is abidance—being That which cannot be imagined. So be That.
But how can you not be that? It's effortlessness itself. By no effort can you
become That. You become the laziest bastard you can know, but not by not
knowing what a bastard is at all.
KLARA: But this is boring.
KARL: Boring? For who?
KLARA: For me.
KARL: Yeah, for you. By whatever you do, whatever meditation or technique,
you want to stay in the tick-tack.
KLARA: It's terrible.
KARL: It's your functioning. That's the functioning of the Creator, Brahma. He
has to create. The "I am" has always to create. The functioning of consciousness
is to create, to dance with this [slaps his knees]. This Shakti, what is energy, and
this Shiva, what is dancing with himself, have to dance.
What an idea that you have to stop the dance to become what you are. Then it
becomes boring. Because then you stop, you have a blank mind for a while, and
then you step back. You even get bored by controlling something, because the
moment you control it, it's boring. "Oh, it was so nice when I didn't control my
mind, there is was misery." [group laughs]
If that controlling, or taming of the bull of the mind, really would stop it, there
would be no world anymore. But in spite of Jesus, Buddha, Ramana, whatever
sage or holy man, it runs. So that freedom of existence cannot be by
understanding, or by whatever pointer, controlled or stopped or killed. You

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cannot kill something that is not even there. So in spite of all the understanding
and sages and whatever, freedom is.
That's what Ramana was pointing to. Ramana was never realized, but the Self is
ever-realized. So where am I to go? What am I to do or not to do? As I am That
which is Heart, and Heart cannot leave Heart, so be it. Hallelujah.
It's time? Okay. Thank you very much.
GROUP: Thank you.
A WOMAN: If anyone wants to order a CD, you can do it through me.
KARL: As long as I don't have to listen to it again! [group laughs]

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January 19, 2004: Shakti hunters and
consciousness witches; or, the end of
control systems

You make yourself an object of desire

KARL: Santa Fe ist ganz schon vertreten (Santa Fe is already completely
represented)?
LOUISE: We're gonna melt you down.
KARL: Melt me down?
LOUISE: Yeah, the Land of Enchantment.
KARL: The Holy Spirit of Santa Fe will melt me down!
THERESE: I've tried; it never worked. But maybe Santa Fe is hotter.
KARL: Hotter?
THERESE: To melt.
LOUISE: Don't give up. Keep on going.
KARL: Keep on going.
LOUISE: If the going is good, keep on going.
KARL: Not going. The going never goes, or what? So okay, ready for whatever
again? If some easy question comes—but those are the most dangerous ones.
Sofia! Tired?
SOFIA: Of everything!
KARL: Of everything? But not retired. You ready to retire?
SOFIA: I am already.
KARL: And now you have to retire from retirement. No, it's like first you retire
and then you have to retire from that too. You get tired, and then you "re-tire."
Rewind. They always say that when you retire, fun starts, no? The pensioner
retires and then—what then? Okay.
LOUISE: Let's get serious!

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KARL: Yeah! [laughs] Whatever that means. Fresh from Santa Fe, there are
new questions from America!
A Santa Fe WOMAN: I'm running out of questions. I was just sitting in the
Ramanasramam bookshop, where I actually like to look, and I opened one book
but then I closed it. I just saw concepts.
KARL: Well, next time. Try again. It comes back.
WOMAN: You think so?
KARL: Why not?
WOMAN: Why not!
RITA: I have a question. Why does the waking state look so much more real
than the dream? When I'm in the dream then this looks real, and shortly after I
wake up it just gets a different density and not so real.
KARL: But this is the same. When you drop into sleep, this is gone. Then it's the
same. Maybe you ask in that dream, why is this dream so real and that dream
before was not so. Maybe there's more history in this, more contents.
RITA: Yeah, that's wonderful. Exactly.
KARL: Like day by day you can remember the days before.
RITA: I can remember the past chronologically.
KARL: But sometimes in a dream, you wake up in some whatever form, and
this man or woman has a history of whatever. Then at that moment it is so real,
that history that you speak from. No, I wouldn't say it's more or less. Right here,
now, you think this is more, maybe because you're more used to it. I don't know.
But more or less reality doesn't make it more real. The quantity of more history,
more whatever memory effects, you have here now, but the memory effects
don't make it more real. It's still pretty much an imagination of reality that
something is there at all. Because you think that there was a moment of birth and
then all the other ideas are surrounding that idea of being born and then you
make a cloud of memory and history—and you take that as real. So what to do
with it? If it were real, it should be there all the time.
RITA: What do you mean?
KARL: It should be there permanently. But there comes another dream and
another dream and even sleep and deep sleep and all that states, and in other
states you don't remember that state here. There is no remembrance, there is no
memory body, like an energy body of memories, and then you are in another
form or whatever. And then there is no memory of that, because in a dream you

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cannot remember this dream here. Maybe you can, but it doesn't make it more
real.
RITA: So it's just an infinite flower of dreams, never ending.
KARL: I would say it's an absolute dream of what you are. That total
manifestation of realization is an absolute dream and imagination of That which
you are. One aspect of one dream doesn't make it more or less, because even that
dream is what you are. Even to call it "a dream" is too much, I think. Even that
dream is Self. The Self in whatever dream images is still the Self.
But simply to say, "That's my dream," that's the only thing that is not fitting. The
"my," the ownership idea, that's the falsity. The rest, I have no idea. But that
"me" means there are me and myself, there are two selves. So whatever you then
come to, whatever this world is or not, it's like myself, my world—all is
depending on that "my," that idea of "me" owning something else. That is
separation.
From that "me," from that root "I"-thought, come all those ideas of ownership
and doership. Whatever dream comes out of it always starts with that dreamer,
"I." So that separate dreamer is already part of the dream.
So be prior to that dreamer, being the absolute dreamer which is never in any
relative idea of "me" and "my," for which no ownership idea or doership idea is
possible because, being prior to all that dream or not dream or whatever, you
cannot define.
Whatever you can imagine, even the imagination of that first dreamer, is
imagination. You imagine yourself, and that imagined self is already the "I"-
thought, and the dream starts. But seeing that you can experience that "I"-
thought means you cannot be it. It's already the imagination of some second self.
The mistake is then to take that second self as real. Then you step into that
separation. Then there's "me" and "myself," and even out of that, other selves
come.
RITA: So from your point of view, so to speak, there's nobody else here as a
second.
KARL: No, there are infinite forms and shapes of Self.
RITA: But not separate.
KARL: There is not even the idea of "oneness." For the Self, there is neither
oneness nor even the idea of "Self." There is simply That which is Heart, and
Heart is all there is, as That is life itself. There is nothing else alive.

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So every other idea of being alive, whatever life means, any definition, is a
reflection of That, but it is not That. So Heart is all there is, as That is life itself.
The rest is fiction anyway. It needs one who calls something a fiction or illusion,
so it needs an illusion to call something else an illusion.
Heart doesn't know anything. By not knowing what is Heart and what is not
Heart, you are That which is Heart. So the total absence of an idea of what you
are and what you are not, and not any definition, is what you are. Whatever you
say, or define, is separation. It's simply a pointer to call it "the emptiness of
heart," the emptiness of ideas of what is Heart and what is not heart, to call it
"the essence of existence" or "the nakedness of existence."
And the rest, no, to figure out if that dream is more real, and why this and this, is
all part of consciousness contemplating about what is consciousness. It's all part
of the Self-inquiry, but that Self-inquiry of consciousness will not lead you to
what you are. Not by that Self-inquiry will you become what you are.
RITA: So what to do? Nothing?
KARL: You meditate. Because your nature is meditation as consciousness, and
that meditation means you have no expectation of a result. So you are as you
are. You are that meditation, which is meditation in nature, action without
intention.
Simply see, there is no result coming out of whatever is done or not done. By no
understanding can you become what you are. In spite of knowing or not
knowing, you are. So if you are totally in spite of whatever you can know or not
know, then there is meditation because you cannot not realize yourself.
And realizing yourself is meditating about That which you are. Out of that
meditation, the whole dream starts. This dream is meditating about what you are
as consciousness. This is a manifestation of what you are. That is meditation
without intention.
At the moment intention is part of the meditation, it becomes a personal "me,"
because there is an advantage idea. "By meditating, I can become what I am
looking for, what I am longing for." You make yourself an object of desire, of a
goal. Then you are in that control business. You become "the meditator." You
are doing meditation.
But you have to be meditation. There is no doership in meditation. That is the "I
am" meditating about That which is "I am." That's all.
LOUISE: [laughing] That's all!
KARL: Very simple. So what? Out of that meditation, that totality of
manifestation is there. At the moment there is my meditation, with some kind of

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goal, then there is no meditation. There is a control system of "me" running on
the idea that there is something to control and something to gain. That is called
"seeking" and "longing." But by no seeking and by no finding, you will become
what is a seeker. So in spite of seeking, you are That which is the seeker, not
because.
If seeking would help you, if seeking were your nature, it would be always
there. But in deep sleep already, there is no seeker and no seeking. It simply
starts when you wake up, and then you take this Stone Age behavior of
collecting some food for the winter, even in that looking for what you are. Then
you collect experiences of whatever kind of shakti, because "maybe the
darkness, the winter will come, and I will need all those experiences of light so
that I can survive in that darkness of existence!" [group laughs]
That makes you a shakti hunter, hunting presences of gurus, experiences, just to
be warm in winter. This the genetic design, for whatever reason. With the Stone
Age behavior, you have to control your surroundings because, otherwise, you
die. But to put this control system onto That, to use it to look for what you are,
that makes you miserable. That is suffering. It becomes a psychological idea
that, by whatever you do, you can add something to what you are.
So what to do? What does Hungaria say to all of that?
Hungarian WOMAN: I don't have something original.
KARL: You don't have an original idea about it? No help?
WOMAN: You know, when you are looking at me, I get red.
KARL: You become shy?
WOMAN: [giggling] Like in my childhood, if I did something and someone
looked at me.
KARL: I feel it too. I catch you pretending.
WOMAN: Pretending what?
KARL: Whatever. It's like if you have a child who has done something naughty,
and then, "Oh, I know what you have done!" I knew that you pretend.
WOMAN: I have no idea what I did, though. [group laughs]
KARL: You have no idea? That you know. [group laughs] Okay, I look
somewhere else. Yes?

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Life itself cannot get more naked
RITA: Is there any aspect of the Self that is just contemplating on itself?
KARL: No, it's not an aspect who is contemplating. It's the Self. Nothing is
without the Self.
RITA: So there is no bad, no good?
KARL: There is, but there is not. You cannot say there is not, because if you say
there is not, there is still this "there is not." You have to say something like, "In
that dream, it is; in the reality, not." So in that realization, it is; but in reality,
not. So there is all the dream, but there is no dream. This paradox, you cannot
solve. This koan, you cannot understand.
RITA: It drives you mad.
KARL: Yeah, but by this being totally mad, totally confused, and then even in
that experience of total confusion, you see that total confusion cannot touch
what you are. So what then? You simply see that you are never in any senses,
that no senses of confusion, or experience of confusion, can touch what you are.
Because That which you are can never be confused. So even in that total
confusion of not knowing or whatever, being in that total chaos, you still are
what you are.
But this is actually the experience of Ramana, when he was lying down and
having this life experience, because whatever could die, he let die. But life itself
was still untouched by it. So life itself cannot be touched by any object or idea
which can drop, which comes and goes. So if you let all those dream ideas and
concepts, simply drop away, in that substratum which is left over—the total
leftover of existence, the total nakedness, what cannot get any more naked—you
will see that life itself is ever unborn and never dying and you can never leave it.
Simply see that, what you can experience, you cannot be. So by seeing whatever
experience, you drop, you go more and more back to what is the absolute
experiencer, as you see the experiencer as part of the experience. It becomes
again That which is life itself, which is never coming and never going, which is
not part of the phenomena of fleeting shadows of experiences, experiencers, and
whatever. That's why it's called "dream-like." It's not a dream, but it's dream-
like.
RITA: There seems to be a gap between what you're talking about and what I'm
experiencing.
KARL: No, no. It seems to be. But I tell you, That which is here, now, is That
which is the absolute experiencer sitting there in that camera position of what

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you are, just looking out. There is perception, pure perception. That pure
perception, what is awareness, is like a canvas. It was there as a baby and even
before, untouched by any sensation of being born or sensation of whatever this
dream meant to be.
I'm talking only to that nakedness which was never changed, never moved,
nothing ever happened to it. As I'm not talking to a ghost, not to any idea, I'm
always talking to That which I am, as That which is untouched by anything, and
can never be touched by any idea, so it cannot be made or unmade by anything.
So be That which is the baby even before that innocence. In no sense.
RITA: Innocent.
KARL: Not in no cent. You are in no sense. It doesn't pay.
LOUISE: And who needs to know that?
KARL: You. Who else? That which is asking needs to know.
LOUISE: Why?
KARL: Why not?
LOUISE: Okay, why not?
KARL: Why?! Otherwise you would not sit here. Would you? "Could you,
would you?"
LOUISE: That nakedness is sitting here.
KARL: Yeah. Facing itself in front of nakedness so that it can be made just an
idea, reminded to be that nakedness. That's all. But it's nothing new. It's simply,
"Aha! Oh, yes." So in this sense, I cannot help you. Just pointing to That, that
you are That which cannot be helped at all, not even reminded, because it had
never forgotten itself. So even reminding, it's too much.
LOUISE: And still stubbornness comes up, still I am stubborn, again and again.
KARL: It's fun. That's why she gets red, because she is so stubborn and she
never listens to what is told to her. [group laughs]
LOUISE: It's because you are so handsome, that's why she doesn't listen. [more
group laughter]
Hungarian WOMAN: Serious!
KARL: The ideas!
WOMAN: Now you are red!

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KARL: I know when she gets red. That's compassion! [group laughs] No, if I'm
honest, whoever comes with whatever emotional or energetic thing, it's here.
There is no difference.
Another WOMAN: If you're honest for her—
KARL: Otherwise I am lying too. But even if I'm honest, I'm lying, you know.
[group laughs] Especially when I say that I am honest. Especial lie. It's like,
"How often did I tell you!"
Hungarian WOMAN: This is my mind!
KARL: Hammering into you. "How often do I tell you again that this is not!"
LOUISE: It's a flowering, the blushing is a flowering.
KARL: A flowering.
LOUISE: Of the flesh. Blush of the flower of nakedness.
KARL: Yeah, I said, if that energy is touched, if this bump becomes awake, it's
like an energy flesh. It's like the elephant wakes up. Ramana would say, when
asked why he shook so much, "What to do when an elephant wakes up in a hut?"
This is unavoidable, because this is like falling in love. You cannot avoid that
this comes.
Hungarian WOMAN: [laughing] I know.
KARL: So I'm pointing out, when this happens, it's a good pointer for
helplessness, as you cannot avoid falling in love, you cannot avoid what is
coming out of the blue, out of That which is life itself. This life energy starts,
and it's uncontrollable.
A British WOMAN: It makes you blind.
KARL: That is the beauty of it. Complete controllessness you experience,
because this you cannot control. Everything you have, even thoughts, you can
control—maybe—by whatever meditation technique, you can control your
acceptance, your tolerance limits. But when this happens, you cannot. It's
simply, "Ah, shit! Again!" Everything for nothing.
So falling in love is the same, as the controllessness is simply showing itself.
Especially when you want to avoid it, you are even more in it than before. You
cannot not fall in love.
LOUISE: And then you fall out again.
KARL: Even that falling out, you cannot avoid. So it's the same for both
extreme situations—that you fall in love and you cannot avoid it, this

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helplessness, and then dropping out, as you can only drop out when you drop
out, and not by you wanting to get out. You want to split a relationship, but you
are hanging on like there's no way out. You are suffering, you are doing
everything, and then one split second, there is the total resignation of that
whatever, as it breaks your heart, and you drop out. But not one moment before.
And from that moment on, it's like, "How could I ever have been in love with
that one?" [group laughs]
But until that moment, you cannot help yourself. You are klingt (rung). Bam.
Isn't it amazing? But everything is like this. Smoking, every addiction, is like
this.
LOUISE: So first you have that going on with the nakedness, and after you fall
out of it again, do you just become Joe Blow and go to work, eight to five, or
what happens then?
KARL: When what?
LOUISE: Well, you're falling in love with the nakedness, and then you fall out
again, right?
KARL: No, no. Falling in love with the nakedness you cannot do.
LOUISE: You cannot?
KARL: Nakedness cannot fall in love with nakedness. Nakedness cannot avoid
falling in love with an image. That's different. But nakedness cannot fall in love
with nakedness. In nakedness, there's no idea of separation, there's no falling in
anything.
But out of that nakedness, with whatever image, you fall in love. And as you fall
in love with an idea, you fall into your own trap. You imagine something,
because you cannot not imagine yourself. You cannot avoid awakening to that
"I"-awareness, and then comes "I am," and this you cannot avoid. Then you fall
in love with that image around you, and you cannot avoid this either. Finally,
you fall out again—also unavoidable. So all the way, there is helplessness.
I'm always pointing to that Absolute you are, which is total helplessness. All the
way, in no sense, was there ever any control. You can never control yourself as
there is no second one to control. So in whatever circumstance or state, there is
neither control nor no control. Helplessness is all there is. So whatever is, is as it
is, but never because you control it or do something or have something.
So in that, everything is a totality of controllessness and freedom. Whatever is,
is freedom itself. In whatever circumstance, there's freedom. And that freedom
you cannot lose and you cannot gain, as you are that freedom of totality of
existence which cannot help itself. Total helplessness itself—that is freedom.

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And now you have a dream of control, you have a dream of free will, and all this
is dream, because there was never anything like this.

That helplessness is the Almighty

LOUISE: I just get caught in this duality again when you say "helplessness,"
because if there is helplessness, there is help.
KARL: No, no! Helplessness is prior to help and no help. You misunderstand
helplessness. You take it as a personal helplessness, but in helplessness, there is
no person left. Without any idea of help and no help, there is no one left. When
there is help and no help, it is a personal help and no help. But in helplessness
there is no separation.
LOUISE: Give me a practical example.
KARL: Wishlessness.
LOUISE: Give me a practical example; I'm just a simple-minded person.
KARL: Oh, she is always lying. What a liar! [group laughs]
LOUISE: Give me an example about the helplessness. What does it look like?
KARL: I just gave you an example. If you fall in love with someone, you cannot
help it. You cannot decide when to wake up in the morning. Very practical.
LOUISE: I do!
KARL: You never do!
LOUISE: I stay another hour in bed or something like this.
KARL: You stay, but you are awake.
LOUISE: Dream-like awake.
KARL: What "dream-like awake"?
LOUISE: [giggles] Oh, I don't know.
KARL: Listen to her! She's a Tai Chi type. She Tai, Tai Chi. "I am in control!"
[group laughs] Energy master. There are all these energy masters. She Tai and
Tai Chi, and then comes She Gong She Gong and Gong She! You once told me,
"With my energy, I can control everything." No? Didn't you?
LOUISE: [laughing] I told you that?
KARL: I remember.

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LOUISE: Look at all these people here. They're coming.
KARL: All because of you.
LOUISE: No, because of you!
KARL: Me? No, I'm sure not because of me.
LOUISE: Twelve thousand miles and here we are.
KARL: This helplessness is the almighty power. That helplessness is the
Almighty.
LOUISE: Uh, huh. So that's your practical example now? You're not satisfying
me.
KARL: Satisfied? You will never be satisfied. You cannot be satisfied. How can
you be satisfied? What an idea, that an idea can be satisfied?! And who wants
you to be satisfied?
LOUISE: You.
KARL: No, no, no. I'm not here to please you or make you satisfied. Who cares
about your satisfaction? No, no, no. That's everywoman, "Please make me
satisfied! Give me something!" [group laughs] No, no, no. "Try harder, now.
Give me some practical advice!" That's the old technique. [more group laughter]
LOUISE: [laughing] You're not falling for that! Now you're old enough.
KARL: "Oh, you can do better now. More practice. You promised to satisfy
me!" [group laughs] Michael?
LOUISE: Leave him alone! [group laughs]
KARL: "Don't talk to him!" Otherwise, head off for Michael. [group laughs] So
what is your practical—?
LOUISE: Okay, never mind!
KARL: Never mind?
LOUISE: Enough abuse for one day. [group laughs]
KARL: Abuse? Oh, she gets really psychological now. [group laughs] She is
really clever. Smarty, psychological—
LOUISE: [laughing] With a stupid mind.
KARL: With a stupid mind? Oh, I tell you!
LOUISE: Oh, you make me laugh and cry at the same time!

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KARL: That sounds good. First headache, and then laughing and crying.
LOUISE: Two for one!
KARL: Bam, bam. It's a good example. Okay. Some questions about this, some
more practical advice?
RITA: [laughing] So basically, everything is a paradox, and you cannot
experience—you cannot figure out anything, so all this searching is completely
futile.
KARL: Yeah, thank God. Imagine if you could control existence by your
seeking and your understanding? What an idea!
RITA: So better stay home, if you can.
KARL: No one can stay home. There is no one at home! First find home. You
will never find home. My goodness. There is no one at home. It's an idea.
"Stay home." "Abide in yourself!" [group laughs] If that would work, then after
Jesus, Buddha, and all these greats, the Self would never go out again. Hmm?
But look at it. It didn't stop. Even after all these holy ones, the dream runs and
runs and runs. So that's the beauty of existence, that freedom—you cannot
control it by understanding or by any insight of any kind or by any practical
advice. "How can I control myself?" No.
You can talk about that Almighty you are. What is the meaning of being
almighty? Almighty means there is no second you can control, and you cannot
be controlled by any second, by anything else. That is being almighty. But that
means, too, when there is no second to control and no second who can control
you, you cannot even control yourself.
So that controllessness is your nature. That controllessness is absolute
acceptance, but there is nothing to accept, because there is only Self. That is
absolute acceptance, and not any relative acceptance of practical advice or of
anything by control.
Whenever a person accepts, it's controlling. So whatever you do as practicing
acceptance, you want to control your surroundings by accepting them. You want
to be detached from whatever. Your control system is running. So you want
even to get enlightened, because you want to control. Even with enlightenment,
you take it personally, and you become "the enlightened one." Then you are in
the God-consciousness, and everything else is a pig stall.
RITA: Pig stall!
KARL: It has to be. Whoever is looking for something, it's because of that. "I
have to control because I see separation. There are separate worlds, separate

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others, and out of all that, I have to control myself." Then you even want to
control freedom. My goodness. Put it in your pocket and take it home, as you
want to stay home. No?
RITA: [laughing] Not particularly.
KARL: This absolute "no way out," this absolute helplessness, that is paradise.
That is being almighty, because that helplessness means there is no control from
inside or outside. For That which you are, nothing ever happened, and no one
else can control what you are.
And no circumstance can change you, or do anything to you, as all the
circumstances are because of you, but you are not because of anything. You are
causelessness itself. Whatever has a cause is not what you are. So that objective
and sensational life, or not life, can never touch that eternal life you are. So be it.
There is no practical advice to become that.
LOUISE: It's like an infant. You become like an infant.
KARL: You don't become anything.
LOUISE: It is like this! The helplessness is like an infant.
KARL: That is helpless. There is an infant who is helpless, but the infant is not
helplessness. You cannot make an object helplessness. In helplessness, there is
no object and subject anymore; there is no second. There is a total helplessness.
If you call it an infant who is helpless, it's not the helplessness I mean.
MATHILDA: It's more like an animal?
KARL: No. Even that is helpless, but not helplessness. Helplessness means a
total absence of an idea of control, of a controller. But even an animal you
would say has control, maybe. By "control," you define it. You cannot define it
as that.
MATHILDA: An animal does not want control, does not think about control.
KARL: An animal is hungry, and for hunger it kills. As your mind gets hungry
for ideas, you kill for them.
MATHILDA: It's not thinking about it.
KARL: But what is the mind? It's like a stomach that gets hungry. It's an infinite
hungry stomach that wants to get more experiences. What's the difference
between your stomach and your brain? Both want to work.
MATHILDA: It's instinct, I guess.
KARL: Instinct?

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LOUISE: It stinks. [group laughs]
KARL: It stinks! You think you smell and after the smell, you go. You have "in-
stinked." Because it stinks. But you are the tastelessness. You can never smell
yourself. So whatever you go for by instinct, it's not what you are. What you are
never stinks. So there is no "in-stinked."

You're never prepared for the infinite you are

MATHILDA: I have another question. If I cannot influence my future by wish
or by will, then how does it happen? When I have a thought or an idea, it
becomes true, sometimes very quickly. For example, sometimes when I'm
thinking, "Oh, I want to meet this friend of mine," even though he is living in
another country, when I go out on the street, I meet him!
KARL: But isn't it so logical? In order for you to meet a friend in the future, you
first have to think about meeting him. First you have to make an idea, or there
comes an idea, "I want to meet this one," and then you make an effort to meet
him. Because you have to make an effort, so that the future can be as the future
can be. It's an interrelation of future and past. It's very easy to understand. First
you have to want to drink before you drink.
MATHILDA: Yeah, but, normally—
KARL: Normally?
MATHILDA: This is very simple, this example, I should take a more
complicated one. [group laughs] Really, this friend, he cannot be there. I am
living in Germany, and he lives in Italy, and one day I think, "Oh, I want to meet
him," and then I go on the street to take a coffee, and he is standing in front of
me.
KARL: Do you really think consciousness doesn't know what comes next?
Where do they come from, the ideas?
MATHILDA: Sometimes—
KARL: What sometimes? There is no sometimes. Consciousness is the Source
of that ever-functioning of consciousness. There is no limit between yesterday,
tomorrow, and now. There is That which is consciousness all throughout the
manifestation. Why shouldn't consciousness know the next moment already?
Whatever consciousness is concentrating on, it can become like—the future,
whatever. Sometimes this is called "psychic."
MATHILDA: So I can—

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KARL: If you put all your concentration on becoming a witch, you will become
a witch who can look into the future. Consciousness can do whatever. If it's
meant to be, it will happen. So there is no limit in consciousness.
MATHILDA: So it's the consciousness which creates—
KARL: Yes, it's a witch. A bitch and a witch. The consciousness witch. [group
laughs]
MATHILDA: So it's the consciousness that creates my thoughts and ideas, it's
not my mind?
KARL: There was never any mind that created anything. Mind is created by
That. Consciousness, as formless consciousness, takes information of mind as
one "I"-thought, and then a cloud of thoughts are surrounding it. But all that is
an "in-form-ation" of consciousness. There was never any such mind that
created anything.
MATHILDA: But it seems to me that meditation and doing sadhana makes a
difference. In former times—
KARL: In former times?
MATHILDA: Before I did sadhana, it was not so much like now, that I have a
thought or an idea and it happens suddenly.
KARL: Oh, you cause this oneness, or what? Cause of miracles?
MATHILDA: No, I didn't say this well.
KARL: But it sounds like it. It's like an avatar seminar or something. Always
you want to have a parking place when you need one. [group laughs]
AIKO: There's your practical example!
KARL: That's your special trick, yeah. All the witches start with that. Nice
control system.
MATHILDA: I still don't understand. Yesterday, I was told that I cannot
influence my thoughts or wishes.
KARL: You cannot want what you want, because That which is wanting it
already wanted it. The movie is already shot. So that there can be wanting, out
of that wanting, something will happen, because this is part of the movie. It's a
cause and effect. There is an action-reaction chain, and everything is
interrelated, but no one is there who can want it. Even the wanting, you cannot
want. You cannot think before you think. You cannot want before you want.
MATHILDA: I thought that these visions and will come out of mind.

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KARL: Even that you cannot think. You cannot decide what you think next.
You cannot pre-think.
MATHILDA: I thought this was the construction, because I have this aim by my
mind.
KARL: Oh, you cannot aim, but you aim. Just simply see it. You cannot want
what you want. You cannot pre-think. You have to think. Then you think,
because of the thinking, you think.
BERTA: And it looks like you do it your own way.
KARL: It looks like this, but that's why I say it's a dream.
BERTA: Like, I think I'll go by Karl.
KARL: Yeah, but where does that thought come from?
BERTA: Ah, yeah. [group laughs]
KARL: Oy yoy! It's like dominoes. Your brain is like a domino play. First one
domino has to fall, and then all the others go together. It's like an action-reaction
chain. But first, the first domino has to drop. And who makes the first domino
drop? That's the whole question. After that first, you think, "Oh, that was
because of what was before," but what was before the before the before the
before? Who made the first domino drop?
BERTA: What came first, the chicken or the egg?
KARL: Is there any chicken or any egg? You come later! [group laughs]
MATHILDA: And there are many thoughts and visions which are not fulfilled.
KARL: I hope so. Imagine that the weather is like it is because there are so
many wishing for it. Imagine if every wish were fulfilled! [group laughs]
A MAN: What a mess!
KARL: First you're here and then—boom—you're in New York! Only by
imagination, you are already there. But imagine that flip flop. Nothing would be
there anymore, if every wish would poof, poof, poof!
FRANCESCO: One day you try!
KARL: Wishful thinking!
MATHILDA: So do you think everything is fixed? All my future is fixed by
karma?
KARL: No. Just find the one who could have a future, who has a past, and then
we'll talk about what is fixed and not fixed. First find one who cares about it and

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who needs to know it. "Me!" That first "any me" you have to find. And any
"me" is an enemy. Especially that "me" that wants to know "what is 'me'?" It's
an enemy. So first try to find that enemy, and then we can talk about the future
or past of that enemy.
AIKO: That's a trick that everyone uses.
KARL: Yeah, a trick.
A MAN: It's mean.
KARL: It's me.
AIKO: Then there's nobody to ask anymore.
A WOMAN: She got it!
KARL: She got it. Thank God, she "God" it.
AIKO: I read it.
KARL: "I read it"! [group laughs] There's a famous saying from Wittgenstein,
but Einstein said it too, that he could only bear humanity by seeing that
humanity cannot want what humanity wants. So there is no guilt or sin in
anything, doing or not doing of humanity, as humanity cannot decide what
humanity wants to want. That means everything is coming out of that absolute
Source of existence. That totality is demanding whatever has to be done and not
done. There is no separate "me" who can decide whatever.
This is freedom already. So what comes next is already decided, in the sense that
you cannot decide what comes next from what is "me." The totality, the total
circumstance, is dictating every next movement. Even the next breath or finger
move is coming out of that totality.
MATHILDA: So then I will become very lazy.
KARL: Lazy? You have never done anything. How can you become lazy? You
have never done anything at all. How can you become lazy? My goodness!
MATHILDA: Sometimes, it's stressful.
KARL: Stress? Where?
MATHILDA: Work, relationships.
KARL: Just to be alive is stress.
MATHILDA: So, if it doesn't matter, I will not work anymore.
KARL: You think you can decide? You think now, by whatever understanding,
you can decide what comes next?

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MATHILDA: I don't want to fight for something anymore.
KARL: Aw! When there will be fighting, there will be fighting, whether you
like it or not.
MATHILDA: I can decide.
KARL: You can decide? Oh, the witch again. "I can decide! You cannot take my
free will away! It's the last thing I will give away."
MATHILDA: I can give up, you know.
KARL: You cannot give up. What can you give up? What is yours anyway?
MATHILDA: Things I'm forced to do.
KARL: You're forced?
MATHILDA: By my own discipline.
KARL: By your own discipline? Oh, my goodness. Now we are really getting
into some trouble!
BERTA: But Karl, it's very confusing because we are living in a world where
the body is taken for what you are. So, when you say "you," the "you" that you
talk about, the "me" that is sitting here—I don't know how to say it—but it's
very confusing.
KARL: Yeah, I hope so.
BERTA: And this whole thing of free will—
KARL: I am sitting here to make that confused what can get confused, and for
you to see in one split second, that That which you are was never and will never
be confused, in whatever circumstance. And what can be confused is simply an
idea, an object that can be touched and moved and jiggled. That which you are,
simply being that absolute awareness, or That which is perception itself, the
absolute perceiver, Self itself, was never touched by any sensation, and was
never confused or not confused by anything.
So this is to make confused what can get confused. That which is here, now, is
so that you totally go to that helplessness or hopelessness or whatever, and you
see that That which you are never needed any hope or help, in any sense. And
what needs help and has any hope was never there, because it's a dream figure.
It's simply appearing and disappearing, and you were never depending on that
dream figure. So then you may become That again, what is concernlessness,
which never cared about anything.

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BERTA: But you are linked to this dream figure for—I'm already fifty-five
years—
KARL: Ah, no! [group laughs]
BERTA: So I start to call it "I" instead of a number. What can you do?
KARL: Yeah, for fifty-five numbers. You are such a number.
BERTA: Every morning I wake up with the same dream figure. "Oh, I'm there
again."
KARL: Hello, again.
BERTA: I know.
KARL: So what? At night you say goodbye, and in the morning, hello.
BERTA: And it goes on and on and on.
KARL: And it will never stop. It will never disappear, because there is nothing
to disappear. It will go on and on and on and on.
LOUISE: "A sweet song."
KARL: Hari Om! Carry On! Yeah, you have to face your infinite nature, and
your infinite nature means there is no coming and going even in the realization
of what you are. That dream will never stop, as it never started. That dream-like
realization is what you are, and the realization of what is you is as infinite as you
are.
And no person can bear that. If you look into that infinite, you will be gone. No
one can take it. No one ever could take that infinite. That was the meaning when
U. G. Krishnamurti came to Ramana and asked, "Can you give me what you
have?" And Ramana said, "I can give you, but can you take it?"
That's all, this question—can you take it? And there will never be anyone
prepared or ready to take that, to be that infinite, That which has no coming and
going in it, which is never born and never dying. What is living out of being
born cannot face That. Facing that never-stopping eternal life, you as Berta
would be gone at that instant and was never there. But Berta cannot take it.
That's why I am never talking to Berta. I am always talking to That which is the
Absolute already and never left what it was. Only that Absolute can take it, to be
That infinite, never-born and undying, immortal existence. Whatever is in the
idea of "mortality," being mortal, cannot take that immortality, never ever.
Because in the infinite embracement of being That which is infinite, you will be
annihilated as an idea of separate life, of being born and dying—in that instant.

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Whatever is before, of understanding, of "me" and any control system, doesn't
count anyway. You can never by understanding control That. By becoming a
sorcerer or bruha (witch) or whatever, you can never control existence. You can
never come to a point of being prepared for that infinite you are.
I can talk total nonsense about whatever is, what wish and not wish, and who
comes in this form and why is this like this—and it's all irrelevant, absolutely
irrelevant, because it cannot touch what you are. It cannot make you what you
are. So understanding or not understanding, who cares? I have nothing to give
you, not even understanding of anything. Because not by any understanding, or
by any control system, will you control existence or become what you are.
That's the beauty of existence, that not by any control system can it be
controlled. It's all ideas, all concepts, of one who would like to be in control. But
even I couldn't decide to get out of that womb at that moment! The first domino
came out. Then the domino becomes a "domina," a controller. Domination.
Dictation. [group laughs]
Simply out of the idea of being born, of that "me-steak" being born, the first
domino is falling. And then you think, after whatever came, it's because the
domino before was there, but it was all out of that "me-steak." Meanwhile, you
could not even decide whether to come out or not. But I am here to tell you, you
never came out of any womb as you are. You are always that "child of a barren
woman."
RITA: So there is actually no "me-steak"?
KARL: There is, but there is not. But to take yourself as that "me-steak," if you
identify with that steak, this is a "me"-steak, the first mistake, and you become
an object in time.
RITA: But it cannot be avoided either.
KARL: No. This first domino, popping up as "I"-thought, coming out of that
Heart, you cannot avoid. You cannot avoid waking up to "I"-awareness, and out
of that "I"-awareness comes "I am" and "I am so-and-so. Unavoidable. But I am
here, maybe so you can see, that as That which is Heart—which is what is you
as "I," "I am," and world—you never lost your nature. You are here, now, that
absolute existence, that nakedness.
You never lost that nakedness, so whatever dress you put on, whatever idea you
took over as a concept, it is merely a concept, and one day it will be gone, as the
last shirt has no pockets. Even that enlightenment you may have and whatever
body experiences, you cannot take with you to whatever.
RITA: So there is no sense of any personal history anyway.

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KARL: Yeah, this saying, "The last shirt has no pockets," means that, at that
moment, you are naked. Then you dress again. But you can be naked here and
now. Be that nakedness which is simply dressed by an idea, and be it simply by
seeing that dress as an idea, that body as an idea. You are that nakedness
dressed. You don't have to undress to become that nakedness. You simply see
that it's all dressing. Then you make a salad out of it. [group laughs]

What needs some help is simply a dream character

LOUISE: Can you talk about why it's not in everybody's nature, why are there
only a few, a handful of people, having this desire?
KARL: I tell you, there's even none.
LOUISE: Say it again.
KARL: "A few" would be saying too much. There is no one who has any desire.
Desire is there, but there is no one who has desire. So there is even none. Even
less than you thought.
LOUISE: He is such a fuck! [group laughs] He has this innocent approach, you
know—
KARL: [laughing] Innocent? Innocent approach?! It's like someone comes to
Jesus, saying, "I have a nail and a hammer. It's just an innocent approach. [group
laughs] Very innocent. Don't worry. I just have a hammer and a nail. I just want
to nail you on existence. Why are there only so few? Jesus, tell me."
LOUISE: Okay.
KARL: Okay?
LOUISE: Okay.
KARL: Then you go "from Pontius to Pilatus" and ask the same question. "Tell
me, why?"
LOUISE: No, this time I said "how." I didn't say "why."
KARL: Ah, "how." It's the same.
LOUISE: No really, how come?
KARL: You are too long in America. You become a red-skinned Indian. "How!
How is it? How can we get out of it?" How? "Beat me up before you go." So
what, how?
LOUISE: Okay, never mind!

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KARL: No, you have to see, any sausage saleswoman who is cutting sausage
wants to be happy. That's the approach of happiness. Whatever is done by
consciousness is the longing for happiness, coming out of the meditation about
That which is happiness itself, unconditioned happiness. Whatever you do as a
person is out of wanting to be happy all the time. This is the meaning of
"person." Whatever the person is doing, in whatever circumstance—
LOUISE: Yeah, we want peace, we want happiness, we want joy.
KARL: And even you murder, you kill, for happiness, for peace. So what is an
approach? There are six billion approaches.
LOUISE: So six billion would approach this place here.
KARL: But for them, there is maybe the "Mercedes Arunachala." They think,
"If I would drive a Mercedes, I would be Arunachala," because Arunachala is
simply that unconditional happiness, what is Heart. "If I drive a Mercedes, I
would be happy forever."
But at the moment you turn the key and drive, there will be a bigger car, and
you're still in a shit hole. There's always something better.
And then come even the ideas of "enlightenment." "First there will be realization
and then there will be realization of the realization of the—." Oh my goodness.
So even with enlightenment then. "Oh, there is enlightenment, but that is only
the first step." [group laughs] Is that like it? So then there is, "Oh, once there
was enlightenment, but that was only the first step, and then I realized, really!
And my first satori I had was at fifteen. Oh yes. But then later on, then was 'Ah!'
Then I didn't know, but now I know!" [group laughs]
What a bushel of ideas always coming, of always getting more and more of what
you cannot get anyway. Then there is even quantity in enlightenment. Imagine!
"Are you more or less enlightened?"
It's like this one exam, "Are you more or less pregnant?" It's a famous example.
"I feel a little pregnant." [group laughs] "I feel a little dead already." [lots of
group laughter and background noise]
LOUISE: [laughing] Did you say "twirls"?
KARL: Girls? Turtles?
LOUISE: Does it hurt? Are you hurting?
KARL: Are you heard? Shepherd. Sheep, sheep. There's something famous
lately, they call it "deep sharing." It's like a sheep shearing. Being together,
being totally honest to each other. It's like shaving you with a not-so-sharp knife.
[group laughs]

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LOUISE: Yeah, they put the sheep between the legs—
KARL: I know.
LOUISE: —squeeze the butt, and that fixes it.
KARL: Okay.
LOUISE: Now you say "okay"!
KARL: Why not? I'm always surprised.
LOUISE: Really.
KARL: What to do? Okay. Back to that experience. You can have the
experience of free will, but there is still no one who has free will. It's a dream-
like experience. I don't deny it. You can make that whatever. It's okay. But to
call it then "my experience" and "my doing," it becomes a history.
You have the experience of free will, but so what? With a history, with "me"
being born and being in a history of every moment of my so-called life,
collecting it around my neck and then wanting to have that enlightenment
experience, or whatever avatar experience, and putting all the bullshit behind so
that no one can see it anymore, and only wearing that one shining one in front of
you, nourishing it and showing it to everyone—that's a person. What to do with
it? It has to be like it is, because it's meant like this. Otherwise, it wouldn't be
like this. So enjoy the show.
But the happiness you're looking for and longing for, whatever everything you
are is wanting to be, you cannot become by anything we just talked about. No
sensation, no experience, no understanding, whatever comes and goes, can make
you That which you are. But that you have to see by yourself. No one else can
give it to you. It cannot be transmitted. It cannot be given by understanding, by
anything.
So if I say, I hope I was as irrelevant as always, pointing to that hopelessness
that I cannot give you anything as hope or help, since what you are is already
that Almighty and for sure doesn't need any help. What needs some help is
simply a dream character in what you are. That idea that needs help—so
what?—it may need help and get help or not, but who cares about that phantom
who gets some help or not. It's that phantom who is in the idea of having free
will. Hallelujah. My goodness. Being a bitch or witch.
Hungarian WOMAN: Stubborn.
KARL: Stubborn.

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MATHILDA: If there's nothing to do and nothing to think, isn't it the most
comfortable to do nothing?
KARL: Try. Yeah, try. Try not to digest. [group laughs] Very simple. I just ask
you very simply, try not to digest. It's the same as if I asked you not to think.
"Wouldn't it be then the most easy thing that I just stop thinking?"
MATHILDA: No. I mean, to do nothing.
KARL: It's the same.
MATHILDA: I know I cannot not think.
KARL: But what' is the difference? This is like a digestion of existence, making
you do something. Lifting your finger is a digestion of existence. It's really like
this idea, that you have done anything at all, it's an idea. All the doing, what was
done and will be done, is coming out of that existence itself, out of that energy
itself which is consciousness, creating always the next action out of what is the
chain reaction of the karmic consciousness. There was never any personal doing
or not doing. So you cannot not do anything. And that "nothing" you want to do
is much too big for you. Imagine if you could do nothing. No way.
FRANCESCO: Nice drink with sugar?
KARL: Urine with vitamins. I'm in a therapy. [group laughs]
A WOMAN: Really?
KARL: Yeah, I have inner therapy. All the time. It's called "digestion." [group
laughs]
[Karl drinks his lemonade.]
FRANCESCO: It's good?
KARL: Fantastic!

Raped by existence
ANTONIO: I have a little question.
FRANCESCO: Oh, God! I don't believe it. Be careful! [group laughs]
ANTONIO: Not because, but—
FRANCESCO: Not because!
ANTONIO: In spite, in spite! Whatever language you use. You say that the Self
has no taste—

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KARL: No, I did not say "no taste." The Self is tastelessness.
ANTONIO: Okay, tastelessness.
KARL: The tastelessness cannot be tasted.
ANTONIO: Yeah, so the question is—
KARL: I didn't say it doesn't have any taste!
ANTONIO: Okay, okay! Whatever you say! [group laughs] That is not the
point. The question is, when Ramana realized— Oh! [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: Don't say it like that!
ANTONIO: Okay. Here was this experience of dropping everything, but he was
not giving satsang. Somebody picked him up to give satsang, to put him in this
position to give satsang. So who says "the tastelessness" without saying this?
KARL: Don't make me sit here, or what?
ANTONIO: You or Ramana or Buddha. Because there is no Buddha himself, no
Ramana himself, no you yourself sitting here. You have no choice.
KARL: You have to say, "I am sitting by myself here." Not by anything else.
SOFIA: Because there is the aspiration of That.
KARL: There is a freedom of decision, and that freedom of decision itself is
existence. That freedom of decision decided to sit here.
ANTONIO: So this means also in Buddha's case?
KARL: In whatever case. Buddha was saying that there was never any Buddha
on earth and never will be. You see a person sitting somewhere, but Buddha
might say that there is a figure, but there is no one sitting. And Buddha, That
which is the nature of what you are, is never a part of anything. This dream, this
manifestation, is as it is. There are whatever objects and things, and dream
objects, but there is, in no sense, any decision.
Freedom is all there is. That helplessness. That absolute absence of an idea of
"my will" or "not my will" or "my freedom" or "not freedom"—that sitting here
or not sitting here, that concernlessness, is freedom. Because, you see, you
cannot not sit here, because at the moment you sit here, there is simply like a
total demand.
ANTONIO: So in this case, existence put you just there?
KARL: No, no one is put anywhere. It's part of the dream.
ANTONIO: In the dream.

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KARL: But no one puts anyone anywhere. There is simply a dream of existence.
No one is put or asked to do anything.
You are still in this thing where, out of the point of view of a person, it seems
like you are being forced to sit there. By seeing that you cannot decide to sit
there but there is still one sitting there, you think you are being raped to sit there.
You become a helpless person. You're seeing existence as raping you, every
minute, because it does with you what existence wants. Huh?
ANTONIO: No idea.
KARL: If you would sit here as you are, thinking that existence is demanding
that you sit here—that's what I mean when I say that you would feel raped by
existence. Against your will, you are sitting here. There is still the idea, by
thinking "it is not my will to sit here," that existence forces you to sit here and
you're being raped by existence.
FRANCESCO: I lost you. I lost everything.
KARL: Alla understood?
FRANCESCO: No, I mean a la dent. [group laughs] I tell you. I know.
KARL: I just want to point out, with that understanding, where you see
existence as in total control but you are still there as a "me," you are raped. This
is again misery, because you think you are raped by existence and existence is
against you. You make even existence your enemy. No?
FRANCESCO: She needs to lie down. Let's make room for her.
[Mrs. Angelina lies down and rests. She is not well. She and Francesco talk to
each other quietly in Italian while the satsang continues.]
A WOMAN: That's true. This is again the helplessness.
KARL: No, it's helpless. It's not the helplessness. When you are That which is
the helplessness, there is no existence who does anything with you. Then you
are That which is existence, and there is no one who does anything with anyone.
But if, by whatever understanding, you come to seeing that existence is doing
everything, you're still separate from existence, and then you are raped by
existence. "Oh, poor me again!" All that is self-pity. All those ideas of "self" are
always self-pity. There is still separation, and separation is hell.
CHARLES: Because you think you have a choice.
KARL: Yeah, but even if you think you have no choice, you are still in that
misery of having no choice. First you think you are the doer, and then you
become the non-doer by understanding "I am not doing anything," but you are

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still in the misery. It makes no difference. So that understanding, where you are
the non-doer and existence does everything, doesn't help either. Because even
that you make then as my understanding and there is no freedom in
understanding. There is no freedom in an idea of "freedom," and there is no
understanding in understanding.
MARY: "I-me-my" is the only problem.
KARL: Even that is not a problem.
MARY: Yeah, but I mean, you know.
KARL: Yeah, I mean! You know what I mean, you know! [group laughs]
MARY: To see that is—
KARL: It means nothing. Again and again, I have to point out that, by no
moment of understanding, by whatever insight, by whatever high knowledge
you can get, by whatever!—Forget it.
This is like in the Mahabharata, when Yudhistara went with Krishna to hell.
This is hell for the mind to see that there is no way out. And then the question of
Krishna, "Can you take it to be in that misery for whatever you imagine of time,
for eternity? Is there any wish of avoidance left in what you are?"
And then there was simply a total resignation of that which cares. "Whatever.
Let it be as it is." Then suddenly, there was no hell, no Krishna, no Yudhistara—
there was nothing left. There was simply that Absolute itself, without any
avoidance, as that absolute blankness of ideas of what it is and what it is not.
That is a direct pointer to that absolute acceptance, which cannot be done.
That emptiness of Heart is suddenly there, but not by any doing or not doing,
nor by understanding, nor by anyone who understood or not. It's a total absence
of understanding, a total absence of freedom. Only that total absence or
emptiness of Heart can contain That which is absolute existence. And That is
what you are here, now, and there is nothing to come for it.
You are naked here and now, and you don't have to undress for it. You are
totally empty. Whatever ideas come in the morning, they were not there before.
So you're prior to those ideas which come as a dressing. You are in spite of ideas
and concepts, never because. So whatever comes with that idea of "me" in the
morning, whatever understanding or not understanding, is fleeting. It cannot add
something to what you are.
You dress and then you undress at night. Infinite. But you are still that
nakedness itself that was never dressed by anything. So simply be that
nakedness. Very simple. Stay at that nakedness. In the morning, when the

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dressing comes, say, "Okay. Hallo and Goodbye." Absolute goodbye and
absolute hello. Every night, "If I don't see you tomorrow morning, it was very
nice to meet you." In the morning, "Ah, hello you again. Okay."
[Silence. A few giggles.]
KARL: That's hell.
Hungarian WOMAN: What is it?
KARL: When That which is life becomes aware of that Absolute which it is,
hell starts. Because when awareness is there, the holocaust starts. In that
holocaust or hellfire of awareness—only in that awareness of awareness, which
is the hellfire itself—the devil gets burned out.
WOMAN: [laughing] You think I have any idea of what you are talking about?
[The group explodes with laughter.]
KARL: Makes no difference. I'm not talking to any idea anyway!
WOMAN: I know, I feel you are not talking to me.
KARL: No, see!
WOMAN: Maybe that's why I'm not getting it.
KARL: I always say I don't talk to ghosts.
WOMAN: I know. I feel it's ghosts—
KARL: Ghosts. Way behind. Everyone always says, "If you look at me and you
talk to me, I don't understand anything."
WOMAN: Yeah!
KARL: "You have to talk to someone else. Then maybe I understand the
words."
WOMAN: No, even if I just sit here. Before, I thought I understood something,
but now there's no way to keep any—
KARL: That sounds good. It's like there is nothing anymore that this knowing or
not knowing can hang onto. It simply always drops again.
WOMAN: Yeah, it feels like sleeping.
KARL: But you're still awake.
WOMAN: [laughing] I'm awake. I'm driving, but I'm not sleeping.

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KARL: Hmm. Aw, it's not so bad.
WOMAN: No.

You can never shut up

KARL: Maybe something there? No? If something is there, just out with it. I
may bite, but it's not so tragic. Everything fine? There's always life's little
questions, it always starts like this, and then it becomes very big. Berta, on your
birthday, you have 55 questions.
BERTA: I'm collecting them. [group laughs]
KARL: Saving them for later.
BERTA: But knowing this doesn't help. Like sitting with you, I get a kind of
very sharp mind and a direction, but it doesn't help.
KARL: That's why it's so sharp. Because it doesn't help.
BERTA: It's not meant to help, I know.
KARL: Yeah, by this paradox, you see even that sharp mind, intellectual
understanding, or beautiful words cannot touch you. They are there, and for a
while it may be relaxing or not, or whatever it is, but so what? And then?
BERTA: Yeah, "and then?"
KARL: That's what I mean—"and then?"
BERTA: That is what I am now into.
KARL: And I was pointing to "and then?"
BERTA: [sarcastically] Yeah, "and then?"! [group laughs]
THERESE: Sixty-five times "and then?" "and then?"!
A MAN: Have a cup of tea.
KARL: Have a cup of tea because if nothing helps—wah—hallelujah!
BERTA: Yeah, nothing helps.
KARL: Yeah, wonderful.
BERTA: [exasperated] Yeah, wonderful! [group laughs]
KARL: That's peace. Only the idea that you hope that someday there will be
some help for you, there will be someone or something that helps you, there will

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be some event of whatever understanding and then you will be happy ever
after—this makes war. But if you see there will be no moment like this that
helps you, that can get you out of what you are—this is peace. You are in war
only because you hope to win something, to gain something. But if you really
see there is nothing for you to gain by anything, you are already in that peace of
mind, because there is no "so what?" There is always that "so what?" "And
then?"
BERTA: What you just said, that's what I say to myself. So there are two again,
talking, and one self says to the other, "Oh, you are That already."
KARL: Isn't it fun? One self says, "Hello again." The other self says, "Oh, yes, I
am here. Nice to meet you gain." "Long time, no see." "Ah, last night. Oh, yes."
"Last night?" "Ah, yeah, interesting." "Very interesting." [group laughs]
BERTA: There is this eternal—
KARL: Conversation.
BERTA: Reporter.
KARL: The eternal conservation.
BERTA: All the time reporting, blah blah blah, you know. It's all the time.
KARL: But if you're not conserving it anymore, there's a conversation but not a
conservation. If you don't put it in a tin of history, there's a conversation
running, but so what? Now by now, you talk with yourself. Infinite talking,
infinite universe. But if there is no history in it, no yesterday, no tomorrow, no
moment before, it's simply now speaking, talking with yourself, without any
thought before. Always new and fresh. [stands up, shifting from side to side to
take alternate roles] "Hello!" "Ah! Do I know you?" [group laughs] "Ah, nice to
meet you." "It seems I know you, but I don't know."
THERESE: It's good to stand up?
KARL:[sitting back down] Oh! It's a circus. Soon I will be—
MARY: Juggling.
KARL: Juggling! Berta, there is no problem.
A MAN: "There has to be a problem, there has to be!"
KARL: You talk always with yourself. What's the matter? You see by all the
talking, it's only fun because nothing comes out of it. You're shutting all the
time. Shutting around. But you cannot shut up. That talking never started and
will never stop. You can never shut up.

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The more you try to shut up and control yourself, the more you are involved in
that talking, and you make it serious, important. You become more and more
heavy, and then you become a person who takes himself as so fucking
important. "Whatever I say is so fucking important! I'm a fucking important
speaker!" [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: I've had enough of that!
KARL: "I am really fucked by myself! But it's fucking important!" [more group
laughter]
MARY: This is as good as words, the body language.
KARL: Body language. Sandwich walking. Ein Witz zwischen zwei Ohren (a
joke between two ears). Walking. "Hello!" That's called "me."
BERTA: It's already a long time. There's no use in that.
THERESE: She sees you as a joke, no?
KARL: Yeah, but what about herself? That's the problem.
A WOMAN: But others do.
KARL: Others do?
BERTA: No, for myself—
KARL: For yourself? Oh, show me yourself.
[Silence.]
KARL: What does Berta's self look like?
BERTA: I only can parrot you.
KARL: Ah, parrot me. Become a parrot. Parroting. [birds are squawking in the
background] Hmm. Something today? Israel?
An Israeli MAN: It's a secret. I can ask myself.
KARL: [laughing] "I don't need you anymore!" Yeah, that's the best thing! Who
needs you? Enjoy!
MAN: Enjoy, back!
KARL: So it's so simple you can even ask yourself. Ha! Beautiful. I can go
home. Ha! As if you didn't always ask yourself. But this Self doesn't know more
than yourself. Is there any "me-self" in "your-self"? What to do?

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BERTA: But you never have—you talk yourself. You say, "I cannot help
anybody, so my talking is useless, so what the fuck am I doing, let's stay at
home." That kind of talk.
KARL: That's what you would say if you would sit here, I think. [group laughs]
BERTA: If whatever you say doesn't help—
KARL: Yeah!
BERTA: So you just talk and talk and talk.
KARL: I'm always saying, I should be the most frustrated man on earth. But it
makes me so happy. This is freedom, that no one gets it anyway. I can say and
sing, I can make nonsense, whatever. It makes no difference. That it doesn't
make any difference, that's freedom. I can make so much nonsense, because
always everything is anyway so much nonsense. It never will make any sense,
because it doesn't need any sense! This is beautiful!
Imagine if I could be helpful. That would be hell! I would be the devil. Whoever
tells you "I can help you," for sure it's that devil himself. And that devil himself
needs self-help. [group laughs]
RITA: You could just sing songs or something.
KARL: No, I couldn't. Every word has to come out just as it is now. When there
is singing, there is singing; when there is talking, there is talking. I could not. It
could not be other than what I am just doing now. It's all fairy tales, comparison
to whatever. "Ramana didn't saying anything for twenty years, and then he
spoke. Why are you speaking?" Comparison, blah, blah, blah. "Jesus walked on
water. Ha, he couldn't swim. Ha ha ha." [group laughs]
MARY: This is true. The avatar doesn't swim. No, serious! Meher Baba says—
[group laughs]
KARL: Thank God I'm not the avatar. I can swim.

You cannot not enjoy yourself

SOFIA: I can understand about the nonsense, but I cannot drop the homesick.
KARL: I can tell you the joke again.
SOFIA: I cannot drop that. It's not a joke for me. That's it.
KARL: But I tell you, it's a joke. For That which is home itself, being homesick
is a joke, whether you like it or not. Your sickness is a joke.

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AIKO: So that's the good news. Where is the bad news?
KARL: Any news is bad news, because nothing is new anyway. And when
nothing is new, nothing is old. That's the beauty of it.
LOUISE: "No news is good news." It's a saying.
KARL: But it's still news.
MARY: It's still "in-form-ation." [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: This is a present for you.
KARL: Everyday birthday, or what?
FRANCESCO: Yeah. For you.
KARL: Congratulations! Da da da da da!
LOUISE: Now you are singing!
KARL: Every morning, before I wake up, it's like "Junge, komm bald wieder"
(boy, come back soon). [group laughs] My ship will come. "Relation-ship" will
come. The Titanic will sink anyway. If you are a Titan, you become a Titanic, a
sinking ship. The ship was called Titanic because it was the biggest at that time.
But all those giants of understanding, they have to sink.
RITA: Better to keep a small profile.
KARL: A postcard from nowhere?
RITA: No, better to keep a low profile.
KARL: A low profile? Where?
RITA: [laughing] I don't know.
KARL: You don't know? Some will say that you have to make yourself visible
so that it can hit you. But it doesn't work. Every seeker says, "Ah, the guillotine!
Enlightenment! Please cut my head first. Please, please!" But then the saddest
existence comes and says, "No!" [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: This is very depressing.
KARL: That is his position all the time. "Take me! Take me!"
MARY: That was a good film, The Titanic.
KARL: I haven't seen it.
MARY: You haven't seen it? You've seen all the films, I thought.
KARL: I don't watch romance. Bah! Disgusting. "Relation-shit." [group laughs]

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A MAN: There was one point—the special effects guys are all hanging on—
KARL: Well, maybe one minute of the movie is okay. There's always a happy
end, I know.
MAN: No, it sinks.
KARL: But that's a happy ending for me, when everyone dies! [group laughs]
MARY: Did you see Liar, Liar?
KARL: No.
THERESE: You need to see it.
MARY: It's out there.
KARL: Out there?
MARY: I think you would like it.
KARL: I like everything. That's not the issue.
A WOMAN: Except Titanic.
KARL: Except Titanic.
MARY: What about About Schmidt?
THERESE: As Good As It Can Get. That's a good one for you.
MARY: Yeah. If you like—
KARL: What I have not seen, I don't like. [group laughs] Very easy. What I
have seen, I liked. She wants to make a menu. "Ah, this is nice, that is nice."
Can't be. Because I have not seen it.
ANTONIO: It means the first one was enough. You liked what you have seen,
so the first film was enough.
KARL: What film?
ANTONIO: This film.
KARL: The first horror, coming out of that womb, I tell you, was enough! That
movie of coming out of that darkness—Ahhh! It's enough. It's enough horror to
be alive. Moment-by-moment horror movie.
MARY: Unless you know it's a dream.
KARL: Who knows it's a dream? Still part of the horror movie. "Unless"! What
an idea, "unless"?!

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MARY: Those are just words.
KARL: Yeah, again! "You know what I mean!"
MARY: Let's get another word for mean.
KARL: It's a very nice word. With "you know what I mean," it's like already
you are mean enough.
There was one very mean one coming to a talk in Berlin. Very mean. He was
saying, "Oh, you're wearing a watch, you must be disturbed." The beginning
was, "You are wearing a watch. You must be disturbed."
THERESE: Why?
KARL: Because whoever wears a watch is disturbed. Why? I have no idea. Ask
him.
He was one of those teachers, whatever, spiritual teachers, came with three or
four of his disciples and wanted just to make a noise at one. "I'll show you who
is better!" Whatever. Said, "Okay." Then I talked and he stared and shouted, "I
know!" "You know? Oh, welcome. Please tell us what you know." "I know!" He
was really coming into a rage. "Please tell us. Everyone is waiting for you.
Everyone is curious to know what you know." "I know!" He became really
angry. And the peak was, "If you would know, you would know that I know!"
[group laughs]
MARY: He's really red.
KARL: [laughing] I'm not joking. But that was really the meanest thing. As you
say, "You know what I mean." It's like, "If you would know, you would know
what I mean."
MARY: It's a good word.
KARL: Yeah, it's a good word.
MARY: But to sneak by, it's not a good word with you.
KARL: To sneak by? To sneak by the snake? It's not so good with me?
MARY: Never mind.
KARL: You're really confronted with many faces, I tell you. Many faces of
being mean. "I mean." "If you know what I mean." "Very meaningful." Maybe
the last question now.
ROSA: Last call.
KARL: The last Karl for today.

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LOUISE: [giggling] The cup is full. No, the tape is full.
KARL: No, no. There's two hours more. Don't worry.
LOUISE: It's on overload.
KARL: Because you are talking on it.
LOUISE: Who is talking?
KARL: I have no idea.
FRANCESCO: That's a big question for the last question.
KARL: Look who is talking. Look Who's Talking.
MARY: Karl? So the framing, just for the beauty of it. Just for the beauty of it?
KARL: For what beauty?
MARY: The framing, not to get anything, but just for the beauty of it.
KARL: No, the framing is there is because you make a picture, and then you
have a picture and you like to frame it. That's all.
MARY: I get it.
KARL: Especially when you have a good picture, you want to frame it. You
want to keep it.
MARY: It's nice. Not to get anything from it. But just—ooh.
KARL: What "ooh"? That framing it, you make a history of framing something,
of framing the moment.
MARY: To remember.
KARL: What can you not remember? To say you can't remember it, you have to
remember it.
MARY: I'm not saying that this is truth.
KARL: What's true? What lie?
MARY: I like framing.
KARL: Then you like to frame, frame it. Then you are stuck in that framing.
MARY: I'm not stuck!
KARL: Of course you are stuck in framing.
MARY: I'm not stuck!

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KARL: [sternly] You are stuck in framing! [group laughs]
MARY: I like framing.
KARL: Even the divine love she is framing. She's framing everything. She's a
framer. It's her job. She's a framer. She's selling frames.
MARY: [laughing] No, I'm not! I'm not making any money.
KARL: The one who says, "No, I'm not!" I know for sure is one. "I am not, I am
not. No, I have not done it! No, no, not me! No, I'm not like this. No!"
MARY: Should I do anything with this liking of framing?
KARL: I have no idea what you should do. I have no idea.
MARY: Neither do I.
KARL: Enjoy it.
MARY: I do enjoy it.
KARL: Yeah? Okay. As you cannot not enjoy yourself. As if anyone could sit
here and not enjoy himself. Whatever is sitting here is Self enjoying itself.
Infinitely. Even not enjoying is enjoying itself. You cannot step out of
enjoyment, as you are enjoyment itself. You are entertaining yourself infinitely.
You cannot step out of that entertainment you are. Part of that entertainment is
that talking and not talking. And you cannot not entertain yourself, as that is all
that you are—entertainment. My goodness. Hallelujah! Thank you very much.
[group laughs]

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January 20, 2004: In spite of my saying
anything relevant, you sit there; or, the
end of all means

You are here for total relaxation

CHARLES: Tomorrow everybody will be in straight-jackets, I think.
JAMES: We already are!
KARL: You get straightened up. By Jin-shin-jitsu. It's a material art for
straightening up people.
THERESE: A martial art?
KARL: Material. It straightens up matter. Makes me very strong. Ready?
ANTONIO: Ready. I don't know for what, but ready.
KARL: Sofia?
SOFIA: Just one thing. Where I can find some peyote? [group laughs]
KARL: Is it for you?
SOFIA: Yeah, why not? At this point! [more group laughter]
KARL: "I'm ready for peyote."
FRANCESCO: I'm ready for something.
KARL: Let's see if peyote is ready for you.
FRANCESCO: Maybe it's good news.
KARL: Okay. Whatever. [background noises] Another one died, or what? The
drums. Yeah, they go to the burning place with music.
GEORG: Do you know where the burning ghats are?
LIZ: Varanasi.
GEORG: No, around here.
KARL: Liz is happy again.
LIZ: Oh, yeah. I'm home. And I can be all cut up in pieces again. I love it!

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KARL: Ready for becoming mincemeat again! If there is no serious question, I
am just joking around.
ANTONIO: Go on. Continue.
A WOMAN: Keep going!
ANTONIO: It doesn't matter. It's fine.
KARL: For me too. It's just if someone wants to have a more serious one. You
can always trigger something with a serious question.
ANTONIO: That's true. Even more than two hours could be taken up with a
serious question.
KARL: With an easy question!
ANTONIO: Yeah, with an easy question too.
KARL: Just a simple, easy question today!
THERESE: Hey, Karl. You know what comes up because I meet all those
friends from the past? So many from Lucknow [where Papaji lived] are
wondering, "Why do you need to sit again with someone?" I've been thinking it
over, and I don't feel I need to sit again.
KARL: I hope so.
THERESE: It's just pleasure. It's just fun. And then questions are poking out of
the blue. "Yeah," they say, "why do you have to sit with someone?"
KARL: Because they went over. They got rid of their addiction and they are
saying, "Why are you still addicted?" They think they have gotten rid their
addiction. It's like a smoker who stops smoking, and then says, "You still
smoking? You didn't make it now? Look at me!"
LIZ: I'm thinking about that myself. But to me it seems like, if I sit, it goes
deeper somehow. Maybe I need to hear it over and over again, but it goes
deeper. It helps me get quieter. I don't know if it's an addiction. I don't care. It
works.
KARL: Well, I always say, when you accept that the addiction will never go, so
what, then? Do you enjoy the addiction?
LIZ: Yes.
KARL: And you are not proud to get over it. You will never get over that
addiction of that Self-inquiry. That Self-inquiry is the nature of consciousness.
There is nothing to get rid of. So then it's fun, just to ask, "Who am I?," but you
don't expect any insight or whatever answer or whatever. This is "Who am I?"

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This is actually going on here. "Who am I?" without the expectation of a result.
That is fun. It becomes really light and relaxed and peaceful. Because already
peace is there—then peace is not like an idea. So what?
MONIKA: We could do it alone.
KARL: You are never alone, my dear.
MONIKA: By the self.
KARL: By what self? [group laughs] Me and myself can do it alone. Me and me
and me. We can do it alone. In Germany, there's a t-shirt—on the front it says
"I'm schizophrenic," and on the back it says "Me too." "I could do it alone. Just
me." You are alone here. Who is here?
MONIKA: Yeah.
KARL: Anybody at home here? [group laughs]
MONIKA: I feel like a school failure.
KARL: I hope so.
MONIKA: I've heard it for twenty years.
KARL: Sitzenbleibe, hängenbleibe (held back in school, stuck in a jam).
MONIKA: Yeah, genau (exactly)!
THERESE: I don't see the difference. Like, for example, my friends are hanging
out on the mountain all the time, and for them, the mountain is no problem, but
then to sit with somebody, it's like, "How can you still do that?" But I don't see
the difference. You are a mountain.
KARL: I have no idea. Let them sit and then they sit again and they sit again. As
you will sit and sit and sit. It's a sit-in. You have to sit it out. But you can never
sit it out; it's a sit-in.
MARY: It's a happening.
KARL: "How many years do I have to sit in, being an inmate in a prison, before
I get released out of that prison?" But people first have to feel like an inmate,
and then they step out and say, "Oh, I am free now out of that prison!" But the
outside is as a prison as the inside. You cannot escape what you are. There's one
idea of being an inmate, and then one idea of being an "outmate." It's a psychic
hospital anyway. There's an inner and an outer. But the universe is a psychic
hospital, whether you like it or not. And you are the only patient. [group laughs]
LIZ: That's too hard, too rough.

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KARL: Too rough. [outside, a workman hammers] Oh, today we have sound
here. Not only me hammering? Some co-worker! [group laughs]
LIZ: The outer reflects the inner.
KARL: Yeah? All because of you!
LIZ: Because I believe that? Ah, problem.
KARL: Problem. Fine. What to do?
[The hammering stops.]
LIZ: You see I stopped? I stopped the hammering.
KARL: Ah, you! Thank you.
LIZ: In one minute, they'll start again. [hammering starts again; group laughs]
FRANCESCO: Take them away.
KARL: Or get used to it. Everything fine?
KAATJE: Maybe you can elaborate about time?
KARL: Oh, that's hard. First we have to find time and then we can talk about it.
KAATJE: Because sometimes we say "time flies" or "there is no time."
KARL: It seems to be there is no time, and then again there is a flow of time.
Slow motion and speed. So what's the question about?
KAATJE: I don't get it sometimes. Some people can say what is going to
happen, and then it already happened. Sometimes I experience things and I say,
"I've been there before. I have experienced this before." How can I know?
KARL: If you concentrate on this, maybe you'll get an answer out of it. I have
no idea. If you're interested in this, you concentrate on it, and then you find
maybe an answer. Because for That there will be an answer. But are you
wondering about if there is destiny or not?
KAATJE: Sometimes I'm sure, sometimes I'm not sure. Sometimes I just know,
sometimes I don't know at all. It's confusing.
KARL: Yeah, I hope so.
KAATJE: It is. It is!
KARL: The question would be, who wants to know it? Who needs to know why
this and this? Who gets confused and who needs to know then and who wants to
control by knowing that?

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KAATJE: That's it. I want to control.
KARL: For sure. You want to have it as you like it. That's a person. That's the
functioning of a person who wants to control whatever future, because there was
a past and all this. There's differences and then the differences have to be
known, because what you know is your friend and what you don't know is your
enemy. So you want to know everything because you want to make friends with
everything. Because if you have only friends around you, then you can relax
yourself. Then the war will be over. "When I know totally what is, then by
knowing it and controlling it, I will be in charge, in self-control, the king of the
universe." This is the avatar training they offer somewhere.
KAATJE: I'm not in control at all.
KARL: I'm sitting here for you to see that being that controllessness is paradise.
Whatever idea you have of control is controlling you. So, as you want to control
time, time controls you. At the moment you give your attention to that—
whatever you want to know, whatever you want to control—it controls you.
KAATJE: That's right.
KARL: So even by knowledge—if you put all your concentration on the Self,
what you want to control is the Self—you are controlled by that wanting to
know yourself. That is misery. This is like—whew!—stuffed into that. That
wanting it.
KAATJE: Wanting.
KARL: But what to do? How can you not want that? Because you're longing so
much for that, to be That which you're longing for. So out of that longing comes
all that trying to control That. But you did it so often, you have so much
experience to trying to control it, and the end was always misery.
KAATJE: Yeah.
KARL: Because the moment you want to control yourself, you are separated
from what you are. You make whatever you want to control the object of your
control. So you make yourself an object of knowledge, an object of time, and
object of whatever, and this is suffering. So how to stop that suffering?
KAATJE: How to stop that suffering? Even this morning, we were doing this.
[laughs] Ridiculous! I can see it's crazy and still I do it.
KARL: She asked, "Why am I still sitting here?" If there is no "because," no
goal, it's fun. It's just relaxing and peaceful and doing it but without any
expectation. So life becomes meditation itself.
FRANCESCO: Relaxed?

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KARL: Luxury.
FRANCESCO: You told her to relax?
KARL: The luxury of being relaxed.
FRANCESCO: This is not in my vocabulary! [group laughs]
KARL: Put it down.
FRANCESCO: I didn't know I came here to relax.
KARL: You are here for total relaxation.
FRANCESCO: Are you sure?
KARL: Yeah!
FRANCESCO: You tell me this now?
KARL: Two months later, I tell him why he is sitting here.
FRANCESCO: Normally, I am depressed. Now I relax.
KARL: But you have to go through that eye of the needle to go to that total
relaxation. Before that is a depression. You have to become very small.
FRANCESCO: Now I become relaxed. Now I know.
GROUP: Aw!
FRANCESCO: Yes, I like this. [group laughs]
KARL: "I'm loving my depression."
FRANCESCO: For me, it's nice. [group laughs]
KARL: Compassion.
FRANCESCO: Yeah. You tell me!
KARL: Flowering of compassion.
FRANCESCO: Yes. I know.
KARL: You will be reduced to the max. And when you are reduced to the max,
you are that emptiness and that fullness. There is a total absence of an idea of
what you are and what you are not. And when you are reduced to that nakedness
of existence, there is no eye of the needle anymore, there is nothing. There is no
second anymore, no idea of you and others anymore, and that is total relaxation.
For that, you are sitting here.
FRANCESCO: So this means you help me.

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KARL: No, I am not helping you.
FRANCESCO: Who makes this? Why do I come here?
KARL: For That, you come here, but not to be helped. To get rid of some idea
of "help," you are sitting here.
FRANCESCO: But inside is help. Maybe.
KARL: Maybe? He always wants to offend me. He tells me, "You help me."
[group laughs] I tell you again and again.
FRANCESCO: Oh, "again and again" starts!
KARL: Again and again and again. There is nothing to gain. [group laughs]
Sounds good, eh? I tell you again and again and again, there is nothing to gain.
Gähnen in German means "to yawn." Zum Gähnen (leads to yawning)—again
and again and again. Nothing to gain.
FRANCESCO: Will you repeat? I don't understand something. [group laughs] I
lost the last pieces.
KARL: The last pieces you lost.
FRANCESCO: I will write it down.
KARL: You write it down. And then you have to repeat it a thousand times
today.
FRANCESCO: Oh, yeah, this is sadhana! [group laughs]
KARL: That would make you happy. "Ah, he gave me something to do! He
likes me! I can do something."
FRANCESCO: You give too much free time.
KARL: That's okay?
KAATJE: It's okay.
KARL: It's time now. [both laugh] Now in slow motion. Aaah-gggainnnn—
Okay. If there is some question about whatever?

Nothing has to go for you to be That which is

JAMES: I have a question about what you were just saying, about that there is
nothing to gain. I can see from your perspective of the Self that there is nothing
to gain or lose, but if we were to take the perspective of an individual, there is
something to lose, isn't there?

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KARL: Yeah, to be an individual.
JAMES: Exactly.
KARL: But you think that has to go for That which you are.
JAMES: No, it doesn't have to go for That which you are. But for this sense of
individuality, it has to go for there to be peace.
KARL: No, it has to be. The idea that individuality has to go enables
individuality to stay. As long as you are in the idea that individuality has to go,
as an individual, you can stay. It's a survival system.
JAMES: I understand that.
KARL: It's again the thief who becomes the policeman.
JAMES: Same old thing.
KARL: Whatever it does is wanting to survive. Every technique you do, every
tapas, sadhana, whatever you do is a technique of survival. As a ghost. you say,
"I have to be relevant. Without being relevant, I don't exist. So I make myself
relevant by making relevant some technique of getting rid of myself. In order to
say 'I have to go,' I can stay."
JAMES: Yeah.
KARL: Fantastic.
JAMES: It's great.
KARL: Really great.
JAMES: So this teaching that there's nothing to get, nowhere to go, nothing to
do—
KARL: In that sense, for what you are. But in every other sense—if you want to
be a millionaire, for example, you have to do, you have to work really hard.
JAMES: But I think a lot of people take that teaching of "nothing to get,
nowhere to go, nothing to do" from the perspective of the individual.
KARL: They want to bring it into the daily life.
JAMES: They have an intellectual understanding of that and then believe they
are there.
KARL: No problem.
JAMES: It's no problem. Well, I know that. There are no problems.

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KARL: There's problems, but they don't make a problem. There are differences,
but they don't make any difference. So in that dream-like individual existence,
there are all kinds of problems and doing and understanding and concepts, and
they all come out of that first concept of "me." And they will always be there.
As you see, after Jesus, Buddha, all those enlightened ones, still the world is
running as the world is running. With all the individual ideas of dream
characters doing their daily life or not, with time and non-time—all that goes on
and on and on. There are pundits and teachers and disciples and all this goes on
and on and on. It will never stop. Because even that never started.
The beauty of all this is nothing has to stop, nothing has to come, nothing has to
be changed for you to be That which is, what is you. That's why we are talking
here and now about That which is. Nothing has to go, not even that "me,"
whatever idea of waking up in the morning. There is no danger for That. Simply
relax. No one wants anything from you, even as an individual. You can be
absolutely individual; nothing has to go for it. That one who says something has
to go is that little devil inside who always tells you that you have to do
something.
JAMES: Okay, my understanding has been, prior to this conversation, that there
really isn't an individual here, or anywhere, but there seems to be, and that there
is nothing this sense of individuality can do to lose that sense of individuality,
yet that sense of individuality can actually drop, if that is destined. Now what I
heard you say then, what I thought I heard, is that the sense of individuality
doesn't have to drop at all for there to be, whatever, freedom.
KARL: Exactly.
JAMES: Now that's not something I knew prior to a few minutes ago, and that
seems worth exploring a bit more.
KARL: It's simply when you see that whatever is, is what you are. You are That
which is Absolute. There's a sense of individuality, but there is no one. It's a
paradox. There's an absolute sense of individuality, but no one has this, there is
no ownership in That of my sense of individuality. There's simply one aspect of
existence, as what I am, as the Self, expressing itself as a sense of individuality.
But even that is totally Heart.
Whatever is, is Self, or Heart. With whatever you name or frame, you cannot get
rid of That. You cannot get rid of what you are. And that sense of individuality
is part of your infinite nature. There's nothing wrong or right with it. It's simply
one experience, one Self-experience, you have with yourself. There is nothing to
do with it or not to do with it.

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Even that sense, that the individuality has to go as a concept, has to be there.
This is another part of Self-experience. It goes on and on and on, like a chain
reaction of consciousness, of one concept creating another concept creating
another concept or experience, whatever you may say. It's all experiences of
That which is Self, experiencing itself, realizing itself in infinite possibilities.
Sometimes individual, sometimes personal, sometimes impersonal, sometimes
even as whatever.
And the only thing that I point to is that there is no way out. You cannot escape
one single aspect of your infinite nature. One aspect of that absolute nature you
are is that sense of individuality. This Absolute is everything, as the Absolute is
all there is. So even the aspects are as absolute as That which they come from.
Even the reflection is an absolute reflection of that absolute, infinite sun you
are—Self. And for the sun, I tell you, nothing has to go, because the sun doesn't
know any shadow, no reflection, nothing. It's simply there as it is. Solid and
fixed, as unmovable as That which is sun.
And that shadow keeps having the idea that shadow has to go. "Shadow has to
go, shadow has to go!" It's an infinite dance of shadows. But find the one who
needs that to drop.
By not finding yourself in all those movie-like experiences, you become the
absolute experiencer, where the separate experiencer is simply part of that
experience. So for the absolute experiencer, nothing ever had to change at all.
There was nothing that ever happened to That.
And for that shadow-like experiencer, always the shadows will change, the
ideas, the points of view, whatever you think, every minute there is a change in
it. One day you think, "Oh, I have to go," the next day, "Maybe I can stay." It
will always change. But in spite of that change, in spite of personal or
impersonal, you are. This is part of the change. Going from the identification to
the non-identification, then even to awareness, is all part of the shadowland. It's
all that dreamland.
JAMES: It's still the shadow.
KARL: Even the light of awareness is shadow. Even the experience of that light
is shadow. For That which is Heart, there is no experience as light, because That
which is light itself doesn't know light.
So the first experience of light already is a mirror. It's a reflection of that
Absolute. But that Absolute may be in total darkness, because that total darkness
is as if you cannot experience yourself. It's an absolute non-experience, a non-
event. So whatever is the first event as awareness, already is a reflection of that
absolute non-event. Whatever happens then out of that Father, Holy Spirit, and

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Son, all those reflections—they never will change. Or they change, but because
they change, they will not change. That which we are talking about is always in
spite, never because. To say that something has to change for you to be what
you are is all part of a conceptual framework.
JAMES: But I'm saying for there to be freedom in the individual.
KARL: Imagine if freedom would need you to drop in order to be freedom!
What kind of freedom would that be?
JAMES: Yeah, well, obviously.
KARL: What kind of freedom are you looking for? Relative freedom you could
put in your pocket, and because of "you" dropping, you will be free?
JAMES: I think that's what we're all looking for.
KARL: But as you are That which is freedom, by looking for freedom, you are
looking for an idea of "freedom," and you make yourself an object of desire, of
freedom. And then you are in that longing business.
JAMES: That's what we're all in, isn't it?
KARL: But imagine if you could find freedom? Then you could put it in some
concept of yours. It could be your freedom. What kind of freedom would it be?
It could be owned by James.
JAMES: No, no, okay. There's an understanding that freedom can't be obtained
by anyone, but in spite of that, in certain individuals, as far as we can say that—
KARL: Never, ever!
JAMES: —there is an experience of freedom—
KARL: You cannot experience freedom. It's not an experience. It's an absolute
absence of an experiencer experiencing what can be experienced. It's a total
absence of an absence of an experience.
JAMES: Right. So in certain individuals—
KARL: What?
JAMES: [laughing] What you just said— [group laughs]
KARL: It never happened. It never happened to anyone.
JAMES: Yeah, I get that.
KARL: You get that? [more group laughter]
JAMES: Kind of.

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KARL: Kind of? Those are Buddha's words and Ramana's words. They say all
the same thing—it never happened to anyone. As the Self is ever-realized, what
is not the Self, as a reflection, can never realize That which is the Self.
JAMES: And we're all being the Self.
KARL: You are not the Self. You cannot be the Self. Even the idea of "being" is
too much. That absolute existence has the absolute absence of any idea of
existence or non-existence, even of the notion of existence. So your "being" is
still too much. Even that impersonal being is too much, because there is still
separation from personal being. You're still separate.
Whatever you define, whatever "my being" and "I drop" and "bop bop,"
whatever you do, is separation. Whatever you do for That which you are, is
separation. But you cannot separate yourself from yourself.
As you never lost yourself and you cannot lose yourself, there is never any way
out of what you are. So do it. It's fun. That's why I say it's totally irrelevant to
talk about it, but it's fun. It's entertainment. But nothing will come out of it.
And that is the beauty of that entertainment. You can enjoy it because there's no
heaviness, no importance in it, because it's totally irrelevant. It cannot bring you
anything.
This is relaxing. The next moment cannot add something to what I am. So as I
cannot gain something, I cannot lose something. By whatever. So be it, or not.
Who cares?

You will never be free from freedom

TOMAS: But Karl, when you say that, it seems to me at least, that it's based on
something else than if I would say it.
KARL: Maybe.
TOMAS: I could say the same thing, but there seems to be a difference.
KARL: Because you would like to talk out of experience.
TOMAS: Well, I'm not saying that. But whatever you are talking out of is
obviously not the same thing that I talk out of.
KARL: We can talk about where I am talking from.
TOMAS: So where are you talking from?
KARL: I have no idea. [group laughs]

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TOMAS: That's a cop out. It's not fair.
KARL: No, that's actually what's there. It's a total absence of any idea of where
it comes from or where it doesn't come from.
TOMAS: But even that is based upon something. I don't have that.
KARL: It's based on the non-knowing but not on any experience. It's based on
that non-event, on that non-happening.
TOMAS: I could say that too.
KARL: Yeah, say it!
TOMAS: But it is not the same. I mean, there must be something there, whether
you say it happened or it didn't happen, that makes a difference—even if maybe
there is no difference.
KARL: There's an absolute difference that, for That which I am, nothing makes
a difference. You're sitting there because you think it will make a difference. But
there is an Absolute here for which, never, ever, anything made a difference. But
you are still in the idea that it will make a difference when this is there.
TOMAS: But if I am still in the idea, it implies that sometime in the future, I
will not be in the idea.
KARL: Maybe you will not be in the idea. Yes. Why not?
TOMAS: But that wouldn't make any difference.
KARL: Again, it will not make any difference. As I see you, as I am That which
is you, there is no difference. There is freedom all over. There is nothing to
come, nothing to go, for That which you are.
TOMAS: But somehow there must be a difference because I don't see that in
you.
KARL: I don't see anything in you because I don't know you. I don't speak to
ghosts.
TOMAS: Right. But I do.
KARL: Yeah, you are in ghostland. You give attention to the ghostland and I
give attention only to That which is.
TOMAS: So is that a difference or not?
KARL: It is a difference, but it doesn't make a difference.
TOMAS: Well, I do understand that but—

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KARL: Isn't it beautiful? There is all this difference. You look out of the
difference of "me" and "others," and I look out of the absolute absence of that.
But it makes no difference.
TOMAS: To you! [group laughs]
KARL: No, for that existence I am speaking about, that freedom, it makes no
difference. For that individual point of view, it makes a hell of a difference, for
sure. But it still makes no difference.
FRANCESCO: Yes, what you say is very clear—very, very [kisses fingertips].
But—
KARL: What?
FRANCESCO: It's for you. For me, it's only masturbation. Big masturbation.
All the time. [group laughs]
KARL: As I always say—
FRANCESCO: I come only for that.
KARL: He comes for masturbation. He's a Brahmachari.
FRANCESCO: Maybe. Some people tell me.
SOFIA: There's something I don't understand. You said there can be a sense of
individuality with no one there.
KARL: Why not?
SOFIA: How can you have a sense of individuality while no one is there?
KARL: It was before, and why should something change? Like Nisargadatta
said in his last ten days—there's a little booklet of that—even the last day, one
hour before he died, he said that the last traces of individuality were leaving
him. What would you say about that?
SOFIA: Is this no one?
KARL: More or less sense of individuality—why not?
SOFIA: But in this case, there is someone.
KARL: Yes, of course, there is an absolute one!
SOFIA: No, you said there is no one.
KARL: What "no one"? There is no person. But there is still the Absolute. As
you are, there is no difference. You are still the Absolute who thinks there is a
little absolute, little self. But it's still the Absolute. Makes no difference. What?

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FRANCESCO: I know nothing! I don't know anything. You know. I don't know.
What is the difference? I don't know. For me, it's the same. [group laughs]
KARL: Why should it go? For whom should it go? Who needs something to go?
SOFIA: But you always say that no one has to be there!
KARL: Yeah, but there is still one there. Even if there is no one there, still one is
there.
SOFIA: In the absolute point of view, yes.
KARL: No. There is an absolute Self, but not knowing the Self. In that sense,
there is no one there.
SOFIA: But then there is no individuality!
KARL: In that sense, there is no one there. But there is still a reflection of That
which is. As long as this body is there, there is a sense of individuality.
LIZ: And what you're saying is that's part of the Self, that sense.
SOFIA: And then you say that nobody is there. You're saying, "I don't see
anybody."
KARL: There is, because I see there are shadow-like shapes, but the essence of
those shapes is what I am. It makes no difference.
SOFIA: Oh, okay.
KARL: What okay?
SOFIA: What can I say? Nothing.
LIZ: What I'm hearing is that you're saying that, within the individuality, that's
part of the Self.
KARL: There are no parts of the Self.
LIZ: It's a shadow of the Self. It will be there anyway, whether you know the
Self or not. [silence] No.
KARL: I simply point out that knowledge about it will make no difference, as
there is no advantage in knowing yourself.
LIZ: Okay.
KARL: But in that absence of an advantage is an absence of a disadvantage. In
knowing and not knowing, you are what you are. I'm talking about that absolute
freedom from dependency on knowing or not knowing. I'm not talking about

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some knowledge of myself, because that would still be dependency. In spite of
knowing and not knowing, I am what I am, not because.
LIZ: Okay.
KARL: I'm always talking about that. In spite of individuality, of personal and
impersonal experiences, I am what I am.
LIZ: And in spite of attachment, in spite of desire, I am what I am. Regardless.
KARL: That's what God was saying when he was asked who he is. "I am that I
am." In spite of whatever. So who needs this drop of individuality?
LIZ: It's there, but it doesn't matter, because I am what I am.
KARL: As I say, there's all these differences, moment by moment, differences
of experiences, but they make no difference. So enjoy the differences, because
they don't make any difference! Only because you think the next moment makes
a difference for what you are, you make it important. You become self-
important. Then you become very heavy and very important.
LIZ: The garden or the satsang. Doesn't matter. You are what you are. That's it.
KARL: It's entertainment. Enjoy it!
LIZ: Enjoy gardening. Enjoy satsang.
KARL: You cannot not enjoy it.
SOFIA: Enjoy the separateness and so on.
KARL: Because even in the separateness, you cannot be separate, that's all. You
cannot separate from what you are.
SOFIA: But if this is just a matter of comprehension then—
KARL: What? It always starts in that understanding, that understanding of that
Holy Spirit, "I am." It can start in that vertical understanding, in spite of any
horizontal understanding of coming and going, of experiences. That vertical
understanding of that spirit, it always starts with it.
SOFIA: Between this vertical and horizontal, there is a meeting.
KARL: A meeting. It's always now. A meeting now.
SOFIA: So that's in space and time—now, now, now.
KARL: No. There is a vertical now and a horizontal eternity. In the middle is the
Heart of that now and eternity, which is an eternal now. This eternal now you
are, in essence. This eternal now is what you are, which is the Heart of
existence, the nakedness. And out of that nakedness, there is a horizontal

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eternity and a vertical now. And you cannot step out of it. [silence] Sofia gets
angry now.
SOFIA: No, no. Not anger. Something else.
KARL: What is it?
SOFIA: I don't know.
KARL: Fed up?
SOFIA: I don't know.
JAMES: Karl, would you say that you were speaking very clearly about
something that we can't understand.
KARL: I hope not.
JAMES: All right. Would you say that you were speaking unclearly about
something we can't understand.
KARL: I hope not. [group laughs]
JAMES: You hope not.
KARL: I don't speak at all about what I cannot speak about.
JAMES: Can we understand what you say?
KARL: No.
JAMES: No. Thank you.
FRANCESCO: This is funny.
THERESE: What's wrong if we do?
KARL: Nothing. But you still don't understand.
JAMES: You can't understand.
KARL: But that's the beauty again, really, if you absolutely see, in spite of
understanding or not understanding, you are. No understanding can make you
what you are, and no not understanding can unmake you. What the hell are you
looking for?
FRANCESCO: Why are you telling me this?!
KARL: Why not?
FRANCESCO: Yes, why? If I have this, why do you come here? Why do you
spend your time here, and I spend my time in this boring sitting?

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KARL: I'm sitting here because there is a "why not" sitting here. You are sitting
there because there is a "why" sitting. It's a "why" meeting a "why not."
FRANCESCO: Yeah, but why do I need this all the time? Why do I need you to
tell me, "you are, you are." You are who? You are—
KARL: [barking like a dog] Row row row!
FRANCESCO: —the stupid self! This is a very stupid self. [group laughs] No,
this morning, I don't believe what I tell you.
KARL: No, the Self is not stupid.
FRANCESCO: I am very stupid.
KARL: Consciousness is stupid.
THERESE: This morning, he was cross with the Self! [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: I blow everything. You stupid boy!
LIZ: "Stupid" is a concept.
FRANCESCO: I don't believe it. Who needs this junk? Who needs this play?
Who?!
KARL: You.
FRANCESCO: Who?
KARL: You.
FRANCESCO: I don't believe. I keep doing my sadhana, and it's no good to
make sadhana, because sadhana is not what I am. But at the same time, I don't
know what I am. But I do know, because I am. [group laughs] You tell me I
need nothing, but at the same time, I need to come here for you to tell me I don't
need anything!
KARL: But that's freedom!
FRANCESCO: But I don't know who is free. "But I'm free!" [sarcastically] Oh,
fantastic. [group laughs]
KARL: But that's the beauty of freedom.
FRANCESCO: This is very useful information.
KARL: I always tell you. Self-satisfaction.
FRANCESCO: No, no. It's only masturbation. "But you don't write." Oh God, I
want to write, but no. All the time!

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KARL: After the cosmic orgasm, he will be happier, masturbating all the time.
[group laughs]
FRANCESCO: But at the same time, I don't want to stop it.
KARL: I know.
FRANCESCO: This is very crazy. [group laughs]
LIZ: And I must say, I love the way you speak for my own frustration. Thank
you.
FRANCESCO: Ah, this is only the beginning. [big group laughter] Every time
that you tell me, "you are free," [makes a choking sound] this is terrible.
KARL: I never tell you you are free.
FRANCESCO: Oh, or something. Who is free? This is too much.
KARL: You will never be free.
FRANCESCO: Okay. Thank you, because I couldn't decide. [group laughs]
KARL: I always tell you there is no way out. How can freedom be free—from
what? You will never be free from freedom.
FRANCESCO: [offering his chest] More. You get me more. Please! [group
laughs; Karl pretends to shoot him] Oh God.
KARL: Yeah. It's a joke, totally. Like freedom is there looking for freedom. It's
the joke of the universe. All the time.
SOFIA: You are the only one who sees that.
KARL: Come on!
FRANCESCO: Come on what? What do you mean, come on?
KARL: You are simply so much in love with your self-importance that you
cannot see it. You are so in love with yourself.
FRANCESCO: You know this?
KARL: Yeah, I see it.
FRANCESCO: I don't know.
KARL: Well, I just tell you.
FRANCESCO: You tell me what?! You don't know what you say! When I ask
you, you tell me, "I don't know."
KARL: But this I know.

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There is not even one who can control a second

JAMES: Karl, are you in love with yourself?
KARL: I have no idea about love or no love or hate or anything. I'm talking
about That which is prior to love and hate and all this. There is no idea. There is
a total absence of that love or hating or all that polarity of concepts about
myself. That all belongs to that dream.
That dream figure, Karl, maybe he is in love or not in love. For That which is
Karl, what is in spite of Karl and never because of Karl, there is no concept of
love or no love or anything. There's a conceptlessness about everything.
JAMES: The place where you come from, where the sense of something comes
from—
KARL: What is Heart. That is called "Heart," which is the absolute Source that
has no source.
JAMES: Whereas the sense of identification that most people have is with this
personal sense of self.
KARL: Because they are glued by love to their image.
JAMES: They are glued by love to that sense?
KARL: They are glued by falling in love with an image of themselves. The Self
is glued to the Self because it takes an image of itself as a second self, as real. It
starts the lover and the beloved, and that is the beginning of separation. Then
there is "me" and the other. So even with an image of divine truth, divine love,
or whatever, you are separated from That. However you define yourself,
whatever you fall in love with, it's separation. Because for love, it needs two.
For That which is called "peace," there is no second, there is no action or non-
action. Love is like an idea of the lover and the beloved. But with peace, this
immense peace, this absolute peace, you cannot make a concept of it, of some
high peace or low peace, for example. There is only peace.
JAMES: Sometimes that glue seems to be less gluey and there's a peace.
KARL: That's why it's called "a split second." You drop by that split second out
of that love. And then the glue is gone.
JAMES: For me, sometimes, there's this thing in time, for maybe days or weeks,
a sense of peace, a sense of knowing.

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KARL: You simply step into the oneness, from the separation into the oneness.
Then you step out of the hate, because at separation, you hate separation. You
can never accept separation. Then you step into oneness, what you may call
"love." And then you are in that love—that "ah, love!"
JAMES: But it's just experience.
KARL: What you can step into, you can step out of again. This is like the ping
pong everyone knows. Heaven and hell. Hell is separation and heaven is
oneness, and both are because the other is.
JAMES: They are just polarities.
KARL: They are simply representing the polarity of heaven and hell. Heaven is
creating hell and hell is creating heaven. Both are co-dependent, totally
depending on each other. Without the idea of "heaven," there is no hell; without
the idea of "hell," there is no heaven. Both need each other totally. So "hate" and
"love" come together as concepts too, as polarity. When you make the oneness
"supreme love" and separation "hell," you make this stretching out of the
extremes of heaven and hell.
JAMES: So there is no advantage to either?
KARL: No. You realize yourself in oneness, in what is love, and you realize
yourself in separation which is hate. Both are coming out of the same Source,
out of that absence of both, out of That which is awareness, That which is the
Father, the Source [Karl holds up his thumb].
But with any source, there is always the question "What is the Source of that
source?" So then the concept is made of "the absolute Heart" [holds up fist],
which is prior to the "I"-thought as the first "I," That which is prior to the "I" of
awareness. With that notion of existence [thumb], already, out of that light,
come "heaven" and "hell" [index and middle fingers], the ideas, as polarity.
Then it is called "enlightenment" when you experience that awareness that is
prior to heaven and hell [thumb]. But even from that awareness you can always
go back. So then it said that you have to have "awareness of awareness." That
even that awareness of "I" has to sink into That which is prior [fist].
So finally you come to that absolute experience that you are in spite of the light
[thumb], in spite of "I am"-ness [index finger], in spite of "I am so"-ness [middle
finger]. This [fist] is absolute being in spite, the realization that, in that split
second, for That which you are, never anything came or will go. There is
absolutely no need or necessity for anything to be or not to be, as you are not in
any idea or non-idea of any existence.

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That first notion of existence is depending on you, but you are not. That's
freedom, that's moksha, but that moksha you cannot reach, not by awareness, not
by "I am"-ness, not by whatever, by no samadhi, by no understanding.
This is understanding [thumb and index finger]. Then you can go to super, super
understanding of awareness [thumb]. But even that awareness of super, super
understanding is fleeting. This [thumb] is already the root of heaven of heaven
and hell. So to get a total root treatment—what is there to do? That's why I'm
always hammering on that "in spite."
JAMES: I think I understand something here now.
KARL: They're jealous.
JAMES: Don't worry, it's not an ultimate understanding. [group laughs]
Basically, there's nothing one can do for that [fist]. But sadhana can lead to that
[thumb].
KARL: Sadhana ends there [thumb]. And then, what comes then, as everything
before, is by grace.
JAMES: I think there's a lot of confusion. A lot of people think this is it
[thumb], and sadhana can get one to this, so let's do sadhana, lots of sadhana.
KARL: Yeah. It's not bad. Why not?
JAMES: But it doesn't lead to this [fist].
KARL: No.
JAMES: Nothing can lead to this [fist]. So then there's this thing, okay, sadhana
is pointless, a waste of time. That is an idea out there.
KARL: I know.
JAMES: I'm not sure whether you've said that.
KARL: No. You cannot not do sadhana. Sadhana will happen, like a dream-like
experience. You cannot avoid what you are. And sadhana, tapas, whatever
technique, is part of your realization. But simply see there is no one who is
doing it or not doing it.
JAMES: Yeah.
KARL: There is absolutely no way out.
JAMES: You can't get to there [thumb] unless you know that [index finger].
KARL: But from there [thumb] you always go back.

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JAMES: Many teachers have said that there is no point in doing sadhana.
Papaji, for instance, said this. Yet he did years and years of incredible sadhana.
KARL: Yeah. "Krishna, Krishna, Krishna!"
MONIKA: He said that he wasted his time. It didn't get him anywhere.
LIZ: That's what he said.
KARL: I'm sure he would say, "I could not avoid doing it, but not by doing, I
am. I am, in spite of it. But still, I could not avoid it."
JAMES: When he came to Ramana, Ramana said that sadhana had brought him
to there, and then Papaji had the experience. You see what I'm saying?
KARL: One thing leads to the other thing.
JAMES: Right. So why would anyone say it's pointless?
KARL: There is a point in that dream-like realization, but it makes no difference
for what you are anyway.
JAMES: No.
KARL: But you come to that point you cannot go to.
CHARLES: It makes a difference for the dream, but not for the Self?
KARL: Even for the dream, it makes no difference because, in spite of that
understanding, the next moment will be as the next moment is. Never because of
understanding, life will continue as it is. Everything, whatever is, is in spite of
any understanding or not understanding, or whatever.
You cannot control the uncontrollable because there is nothing to control. There
is not even one who can control a second. So in that absence of a second, there
is a total controllessness. And even in time, what you would call "time," this
dream is uncontrollable because there is not even a dream you could control.
FRANCESCO: So?
KARL: What "so"? So la la.
FRANCESCO: All the time, this!
KARL: Now you hate yourself because you made yourself do so much.
FRANCESCO: Oh.
CHARLES: Before you used the analogy of electricity that flows through a light
or a blender or anything else—that is like the life force.
KARL: But electricity, energy, or consciousness is the same.

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CHARLES: Right. And the mistake is to believe that this thing is independent of
the life force or the electricity.
KARL: No. That which is electricity takes the form of information, but it's still
electricity. That formless energy, as consciousness, taking the form of
information, makes no difference. So there is a personal and an impersonal
consciousness. But even the impersonal consciousness, what is awareness as
pure consciousness, takes the form of impersonal, cosmic consciousness and
personal, individual consciousness. But it makes no difference.
CHARLES: To the electricity?
KARL: For consciousness, it makes no difference.
CHARLES: Right.
KARL: So whatever shape and form it takes, it makes no difference. It's still
That which it is.
CHARLES: It would seem to make a difference to the personal consciousness,
as an experiencer.
KARL: Yeah, but there is still no difference.
CHARLES: Still no difference. Even though it seems to make a difference for
us.
KARL: There's simply a different point of view, of information, or whatever,
but it makes no difference. There are different points of view. So what?
CHARLES: It's only a point of view, which isn't real.
KARL: Yeah, and that point of view is changing all the time. Changing,
changing, changing. Not for one minute are you the same person. The point of
view is changing absolutely every moment. You are adding something to that
point, or you are taking another position. One day you are pro-war and the next
day you are anti-war.
CHARLES: One day we want to sit with somebody, and the next day we think
we don't need to.
KARL: One day, "He's the greatest master I ever met," and the next day, "Oh,
shit." [group laughs]
LIZ: Just another German.
KARL: Yeah. You bow down to him, and then the next day, just another
German. But I like it.

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Whatever you make an advantage puts you at a
disadvantage
JAMES: Karl, can you just go back to the point you were making about the
movie—there's nothing anyone can do to control the movie—can you say some
more on that?
KARL: The movie is already shot.
JAMES: That analogy is quite helpful.
KARL: The next frame of that movie is already. You cannot change That which
is already there. That absolute realization of That which is Heart happens at
once, and even then, nothing ever happened, because this is as infinite and
without beginning and end as That which is the Absolute itself. So the next
moment is already absolutely there because there is nothing new, as nothing is
old.
There is this infinite now—absolute infinite time, you may say, with all the
infinite forms. All the aspects are there, whatever can possibly be an aspect of
what is existence. And then the vertical now as a formlessness is always here.
With a "moment," you're simply cutting through that, taking one aspect, one
moment, out of that infinite manifestation of what you are. So the next moment
is already part of that manifestation.
You cannot change that manifestation. It's called "mani-fest-ation." It's many
faltig (folded, wrinkled), many aspects, but it's fest (firm, solid). There is no
moving, no coming, no going, nothing happens in it.
All the dream-like happenings and comings and goings are you experiencing,
moment by moment, what you are from infinite perceptions and points of view.
So that absolute perceiver you are is perceiving itself out of that individual
perception, or from whatever point or space-like camera position, looking into
That which one is. So we take dream-like positions, looking into That which we
are, as consciousness.
But absolutely, you change your point of view every moment. So that absolute
perception itself is never in any senses. It's never part of the sensation, but all the
sensations are in that. You are that absolute Source, wherein time and all the
ideas and all that movie plays, but you are never part of it. No matter what your
perception, point of view, or camera position, you are still not part of it. You
may still have the experience of being in it, but you are never in it.
CHARLES: So what I perceive as "me" is just a point of view? But I try and
maintain it, somehow.

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KARL: You want to fix it.
CHARLES: To fix it, to have continuity.
KARL: You want to make this person real by fixing that point of view.
CHARLES: Right.
KARL: You make a history with my experiences. By this little idea, "my," that
ownership idea, falling in love with that image, you're trapped into that.
CHARLES: So small.
KARL: But it's okay too.
TOMAS: So Karl, within the image of the movie, how does "the split second"
that you sometimes refer to fit in there? I mean, what is that within the movie?
KARL: Even that is part of the movie.
TOMAS: So it does happen?
KARL: It does happen, but nothing happens.
JAMES: It only happens in the movies!
TOMAS: It only happens to the movie?
MONIKA: It's an explosion.
MATTIAS: An implosion.
KARL: It's just a word, just an expression, for something you cannot name, you
cannot frame, you can't do anything with it.
TOMAS: What is that "split second" or "divine accident" or whatever it is?
KARL: It's here, now.
TOMAS: What are you pointing at when you say that?
KARL: I'm pointing to That which you are.
TOMAS: And the split second?
KARL: You are the split second.
TOMAS: Wow. Can you say more about that?
KARL: I point always to That which is perception itself, wherein all the ideas of
time and non-time and all the experiences are appearing, but itself is never an
appearance. I'm always pointing to That which is neither in time nor in non-
time, which is in absolutely no idea, which is always in spite. I am pointing to

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that absolute Source you are—which is an infinite accident! An infinite split
second!
TOMAS: So the whole movie is the split second?
KARL: Yeah, in that second, in one awakening, in one realization, everything is
there. So that split second is here, now. With this [claps once], you create the
manifestation. Boom! Every moment the manifestation—boom—boom—boom!
TOMAS: And then within that one split second, the movie will continue, but
somehow it also stops.
KARL: It's a full stop. By seeing it's a movie—
TOMAS: What is puzzling to me is, it seems so obvious, so simple and clear,
and yet somehow, it doesn't happen.
KARL: No, if it's not meant to be, then it's not meant to be.
TOMAS: Who needs it to be?
KARL: I don't know. Who wants to control it?
TOMAS: I don't know.
KARL: You see? I don't either. Who needs the control, and who needs to know?
CHARLES: And when deep sleep happens? It's like the electricity is no longer
going through that form?
KARL: In that, you are like a pot in which electricity bubbles. And then in deep
sleep—
CHARLES: There's no bubbling?
KARL: There is no attention, so there's no energy, because the attention is
putting you down.
CHARLES: But the electricity is still there, the same?
KARL: But it's a flat line. And then you wake up and bing bing bing again. But
it's still the same energy. Between deep sleep as a flat line and in the morning
bing bing bing—it makes no difference. There is consciousness in a flat liner
and consciousness in a bing bing bing—individual bing bing bing or impersonal
bing bing bing or flat line as awareness.
MONIKA: Why don't we stay in flat line? I mean, why is the bubble always
coming back?
KARL: Look at all the masters. They always go to that samadhi of awareness.
And after a thousand years, they come out again—and they are thirsty.

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SOFIA: But deep sleep is not samadhi.
KARL: But deep sleep and awareness are the same. So they go to that deep
sleep state of awareness, and they stay there by whatever concentration, by
whatever siddhis, by whatever they do. They want to control that awareness
state of deep sleep and then to stay in that. With all the sadhanas, all the
attention you give to that, you can stay there. But one moment without that
effort and—boom—you are out. It needs one that could have an advantage. And
whatever you make as an advantage, even that awareness state, whatever
samadhi you make an advantage, you are in a disadvantage that you need one.
SOFIA: Well, it feels peaceful.
KARL: For a while. That's why I wanted to show everyone that Samsara movie,
because it's really clear. For three years, three months, three weeks, three days,
three hours, he was in samadhi, in that awareness, nails like this, hair like this
[shows long fingernails and hair], everything was fine, everyone was happy.
"Oh, he made it!" All the friends—"Wah!"
Then they woke him up again. It was in Tibet. So they woke him up with some
rituals, pujas, life energy, electricity. Out of the flat line, ooh, slowly, "whoo,"
into the form again. Ah! Everyone was happy. They made puja. Tibet. Blare,
blare, blare [makes trumpet sounds]. "He made it! One lama!" Tra la la.
The very first night, his friend was full of bliss and looking at him. "My friend
made it. Ah! Light! Three years. He made it!" And then he looked, and then
slowly, in the blanket, came a little tent. A "tent-dency," a tendency! Oh! And
then slowly a white circle around that tendency. [group laughs]
MONIKA: Oh dear.
KARL: And his friend said, "Ah no! Lost it again!!" [group laughs]

You are the choicelessness

FRANCESCO: But not every case is this.
KARL: What is every case? Not in your case? You're still hoping that in your
case, it will not happen?
FRANCESCO: But not in every case is this.
KARL: What case?
FRANCESCO: Ramana or Nisargadatta or—
KARL: Did you go to Ramana at night? [group laughs]

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FRANCESCO: Not this! Boy, boy, boy, not this!
KARL: That's what I'm pointing to. It doesn't matter. I just said that samadhi,
whatever you can reach, is nothing.
LIZ: If you keep coming in and out.
KARL: You will always keep coming in and out. You have no choice. You are
the choicelessness. You cannot choose to stay in whatever.
FRANCESCO: But Nisargadatta—
KARL: My goodness. Bullshit. There never was any Nisargadatta Ramana
bullshit. My goodness! Shut up with this!
FRANCESCO: Shut up him. Nisargadatta told all the time, "You stay, you stay.
That is so important. You stay for to understand it."
KARL: I tell you, how can you not stay?
FRANCESCO: For me, it's the same. You and he are only two different voices
speaking. One told me this is true; the other told me this isn't true!
KARL: Both are bullshit.
FRANCESCO: Maybe this is more true because—
KARL: He's more famous. [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: No, this is the same. It's only two different voices. And he told
me different. One told me, "That is nothing. That is not you." Oh, I understand,
it's not me, but—
KARL: Isn't it wonderful?
FRANCESCO: Oh, it's not wonderful! What are you doing, if you are coming?
He told me, "Don't make this!" This is boring. Please don't come. I don't want to
stay in this samadhi, please.
KARL: Who doesn't want to stay there?
FRANCESCO: If you tell me one thing, I don't want it. If you tell me the other
thing, this is boring. This is nothing for you. This is not what you are.
KARL: That puts you into the neti-neti. So not even that, it is. Neti-neti,
whatever you can experience.
FRANCESCO: I understand that in these two hours you want to speak only on
the Self, but it's not simple to understand what I am, and at the same time, I am
this boy.

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KARL: Yeah, you will never understand it, thank God, you will never
understand.
FRANCESCO: I don't know why I come here. [group laughs]
KARL: But to see that beauty of that freedom, that you can never understand
and control freedom.
FRANCESCO: But this is only what you tell me now. If I don't believe or if I
believe, for me it's the same.
KARL: Yes.
FRANCESCO: Because it's all in my mind, or maybe, this hour. After one hour,
I don't believe anything.
KARL: Thank God there was never was any mind. Who cares about what was
never there?
FRANCESCO: This is only another idea.
KARL: So what?
FRANCESCO: Okay.
KARL: For who? Me, me, me.
FRANCESCO: Yeah. Me, me, me.
KARL: Love yourself.
FRANCESCO: I don't know! It's the same for me. It doesn't change anything.
KARL: I hope so.
FRANCESCO: This is very heavy.
KARL: What's heavy?
FRANCESCO: "I hope so." [group laughs]
KARL: I absolutely hope so. That's the absolute hope that nothing will change
by what I say. Imagine if something would change by my saying something?! I
could control existence. Oh my goodness.
FRANCESCO: "I want to control everything!" [group laughs] This control,
control, control! Yeah, why not?
KARL: Yeah, why not? Try hard, Francesco.
FRANCESCO: In reality, I don't know why I like you. [group laughs] But
sometimes, some words from you, from your voice, from this—sorry—this

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stupid consciousness, it told me all the time what I am, and I am free, and you
want to control, and out of this control, oh my goodness! I like my father now.
[big group laughter] My father was into control. I think, maybe I go home. "My
father, you are my guru, and I didn't understand anything in my life!" [group
laughs]
KARL: Don't you see? I am working for your father. [group laughs] [to group]
Son of a manufacturer in Italy and his father wants him to take over the factory
and he said, "No, I want to make my sadhana."
FRANCESCO: I want to go to Tiruvannamalai! And you think this is a stupid
idea. I don't believe I stay here in the flat, in the stupid flat with the water that
doesn't—Aaah!. [group laughs] For what? For nothing! .
KARL: Then I tell him, "That's freedom, my dear!"
FRANCESCO: This is stupid consciousness.
KARL: That's freedom, because you have no choice. That choicelessness is
freedom. Wonderful.
FRANCESCO: Don't touch the rose. You put this down!
VICKI: That's really controlling! [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: From now on, I want to control everything. [group laughs] I go
home, I make a lot money. I want to control the world.
KARL: So now I can go to your father and get my salary? [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: When I worked inside the factory, he looked at me and said,
"Oh, my son! You are very nice."
KARL: "I love you."
FRANCESCO: This, no.
KARL: No?
FRANCESCO: This, no. Too much.
KARL: This is always saved for the last words. "Son, I never told you, but I
loved you. Ugh." "I worked so hard—for that. All for nothing. He loved me all
the time, and I worked always for that love. Why didn't you tell me earlier?"
MONIKA: See, that's why the Americans always say "I love you" all the time.
[group laughs] They don't want to miss the opportunity.
KARL: No moment without. Just to fill that with that.
FRANCESCO: I'm sorry.

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KARL: The Italian. Drama!
FRANCESCO: No, maybe people understand everything. Maybe people
understand what is "free."
KARL: Don't worry.
FRANCESCO: No, no. I don't worry. I'm happy for them.
KARL: [laughing] No one believes you.
FRANCESCO: I don't believe one person.
KARL: Okay, that's good.
FRANCESCO: But not from you. From this stupid consciousness.

Wanting to take a little control of your life, you

become a little controller
EMMA: I have a question. Again with this "split second." It's somewhat
frightening for me. Is it that the split second takes care of itself?
KARL: No. The split second never cares one bit. There's a total concernlessness
in that split second.
EMMA: By this I meant, actually, that I don't have any influence?
KARL: No, it doesn't take care. It's simply That, to be That which is, that "I"
experiencing what is. In spite of whatever is experienced, That is never changed
one inch, by whatever experience of sensational world or dream or whatever
comes and goes that changes. That's all.
That is here, now, That which it was as a baby and before, or as you can go in
that split second through the whole eternal time, to Adam and Eve, to the
beginning of experiencing, and since then, it never changed one inch. That
unborn, never-changing perception itself, which is the eye of God, the eye of
Buddha, your Buddha-nature, cannot see itself, but whatever it sees, it cannot
be. So it was never changed by any experience, and never by any circumstance
could it be changed.
So for That, nothing ever happened. In that split second you see that, for That
which is perception itself, nothing ever happened. Those separate experiences,
that person, is simply part of circumstance, but That which is perception itself
was never a part of any circumstance.

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It's never in any world nor not in any world. All the ideas, all the knowing and
not knowing, all that you can name and not name, you are in spite of, as
everything is appearance-like, sensation-like, but That which is sensing
everything, That which is prior to all ideas of sensing and sensation and what
can be sensed, cannot be touched. So it's a non-event, because there is a total
absence of any event, because nothing ever happens there.
EMMA: And why are you winning the lottery and not me?
KARL: What lottery? As I said again, consciousness doesn't know separation,
and consciousness doesn't care who wins the lottery, who gets the pot. It takes
six billion possibilities, and maybe one out of six billion, or maybe two, or
maybe one out of one billion. But who cares? There is not even one who gets it.
If consciousness as this [points to his body] gets it, the whole of totality gets it.
The Self, what is the totality of consciousness, doesn't care about who gets it. It
doesn't know anyone! It has so many possibilities of trying and sitting and
sadhanas and whatever, and maybe for one form it drops out, but it's in all the
forms anyway, so it doesn't care in what form it happens.
So it happened for you—but not in what you think you are. And in what you
think you are, it will never happen anyway.
EMMA: [sighing] Yeah, yeah.
KARL: That non-happening happens now. There is always that non-happening.
That split second is here, now. Nothing to come. It happened for no one. It didn't
happen for Karl, I tell you. It never happens to anybody. It never happens to any
concept of spirit. It never happens to consciousness. When that inner sun rises,
of that Self-awareness, when awareness becomes aware about that awareness
which is awareness, it's in no one's hands.
That's why it's called "an accident." By accident you step into that dream, and by
accident you step out. You fall in love by accident and, by whatever resignation
of that love, you step out. That is "split second." In a split second, you fall in
love; in a split second, you drop out.
So love is a glue. You're glued by love to what you are. You are in a total
relationship with yourself. And any relationship you hate because it makes you
suffer.
MRS. ANGELINA: How do you remember all of these things?
KARL: Nothing has to be remembered. As you have never forgotten anything,
there is nothing to remember.
EMMA: So love is actually my enemy?

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KARL: No. No enemy.
EMMA: Isn't that what you said?
KARL: You're simply that choicelessness. That freedom cannot choose not to
fall in love. So love is one aspect of your nature. There is nothing wrong with it.
But I just tell you, love that you make as an icon, like a big one, is nothing
special. You cannot not love yourself. But not by love, you are. In spite of
loving or not loving, you are what you are, never because. But this is freedom.
In spite of loving, in spite of oneness, in spite of whatever idea, you are. Never
because. My goodness.
You are the Almighty. You are absolutely in control, but you have no control.
You are That which is control, but you have no control. So by wanting to make a
little control of your life, you become a little controller. But you are the
Almighty already. Because of you, everything is. What is more control and more
power? You are power itself. But you have no power. There is no ownership in
it. There is no my control. Only by that idea of "my control," you step into that
little controllership.
FRANCESCO: No, no, big. Not small. I don't want small.
KARL: [sweetly] Francesco!
FRANCESCO: All or nothing.
KARL: Yeah, so totally see, by no experience, by no coming and going of any
sensation, will you become That, what is That. So be That! And by being That,
you are that Almighty, but not by becoming it, by any sensation, by any second-
hand experience.
FRANCESCO: So the samadhi is this.
KARL: No. There is no samadhi anymore. For what Ramana pointed to, That
which is your nature, your absolute nature, which is a statelessness, there is no
idea of samadhi anymore. There is no state of samadhi.
FRANCESCO: Yeah, yeah. but I tell you many times.
KARL: What?
FRANCESCO: I'm not interested in the Self. At all.
KARL: Oh.
FRANCESCO: Yeah.
KARL: I know. You are interested in control.

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FRANCESCO: No I am not interested in the Self because I don't want to
understand something, because it is not possible to understand anything about
the Self. So I think—sorry—but I think it's very boring, this talk on the Self.
Why do I spend my time to look into understanding what is not possible to
understand?
KARL: Who wastes his time here? What is your time?
FRANCESCO: Stupid waste of time.
KARL: It's very stupid to say, "I waste my time." You will be wasted, whether
you like it or not.
FRANCESCO: This is a problem. A very big problem.
KARL: You will be enjoyed, whether you like it or not.
FRANCESCO: It's another problem.
KARL: [laughing] It's another problem! As I always say, God loves you
anyway. By the love of God you are, and by the hate of God you will disappear,
or what?
FRANCESCO: Yeah, but, sometimes, it's difficult not to understand, because I
don't want to understand, it's too much for me to understand—maybe— Is there
another word in English for not to understand, but near?
KARL: Close? Getting close to understanding?
FRANCESCO: Many times you tell us, "You're it, you're it," but when you read
Nisargadatta or someone else—
MARY: "Apperceive." Nisargadatta Maharaj speaks about apperception.
FRANCESCO: I feel it. And I believe that. At the same time, I'm right here, this
boy, right in this place, and in front of me is you, and I repeat, I don't know why
I believe you. You tell me, "No, that is not true." I understand I am the Self, I
don't need sadhana, but at the same time, to understand what I am, what do I
do? So I do it.
KARL: Whatever you do, don't worry.
FRANCESCO: In spite of, eh?
KARL: No I tell you, that absolute consciousness knows best, so don't worry.
The next step will be perfectly the next step.

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Doubt whatever you can understand
MARY: There's a little bit of a smell of faith here.
KARL: Faith?
MARY: Well, you were saying, "Don't worry, don't worry." So talk about faith.
KARL: I'm talking to that Absolute that can worry or not worry. In spite of
worrying or not worrying, it is this Absolute, and don't worry.
MARY: What is faith?
KARL: I have no idea. Who needs it? I have no idea.
MARY: It's a step.
KARL: Yeah. It's a step, a stepping stone.
MRS. ANGELINA: It's a movie.
FRANCESCO: Samsara. Stupid movie. Not that movie, my movie is stupid!
MRS. ANGELINA: Delicate smell of roses. Just joking.
KARL: Pure love!
FRANCESCO: Yeah, this is the problem with this.
MARY: In faith, there is listening.
KARL: No. It starts to hate because it cannot control not to come here. [group
laughs]
MARY: But it keeps on coming. Is it addiction or faith?
KARL: Faith makes you an addict. So fate is part of love, of addiction.
MARY: No, faith.
KARL: Yeah, face to face with fate. I'm fading away. Face to faith with fate, I'm
fading away! [group laughs]
MARY: Yeah, that's good. I really think a book should be made of all these little
Karlisms. Right? Really awesome. It'd really sell. You could make a lot of
money.
KARL: Thank God I don't know where they come from.
MONIKA: Now I know why we sit here!
KARL: Karl-ower. It's Karl Hour!

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FRANCESCO: It keeps changing, maybe, but if you tell this, no—
KARL: Tell what?
VICKI: He's saying that you wouldn't make a lot of money.
KARL: No. That's my destiny. I won't make a lot of money by my blah blah
blah. Because I don't promise—
MARY: We'll see. The day is young.
KARL: He says.
FRANCESCO: I don't know.
KARL: But I tell you, the beauty of that, that I can say whatever I want bullshit,
and you will sit there or not.
MONIKA: Worse!
KARL: Yeah, I tell you. Everyone is sitting here about that concernlessness, to
see, in spite of my saying something stupid, intelligent, or anything relevant, you
sit there. What to do?
But that's freedom. Again and again, I put that this is freedom. In spite of
whatever bullshit or nonsense one says, you have to sit there. You martyr your
brain. "He says something, but I cannot find any sense in it. But I'm sitting here.
There must be something! Why am I sitting here? I'm not sitting here for
nothing! There must be something. Then again, no, no, no, blah, blah, blah."
MARY: I've never been so relaxed.
KARL: You see this nonsense. It's so relaxing. For one. But not for him [points
to Francesco].
MARY: He's just pretending. He's an actor. The Italian actor.
KARL: He wants to intrigue us with something. Total mischievous
consciousness. He's like a bitch. Consciousness is a bitch.
FRANCESCO: I know, I know. I tell you!
KARL: But you are that bitch.
FRANCESCO: I know. That's the problem.
KARL: You bite yourself. That's called "Self-abidance." You bite yourself.
Then you become the dog who bites his own tail and gets so hungry for his own
blood. It's a famous story. The bliss story of biting your own tail and then
getting hungry for your own blood all the time.

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SOFIA: I know.
KARL: You remember that story, Sofia? Pundit, here, you read everything!
[Sofia laughs]
It's from one of the Upanishads, the Self biting its own tail and getting the taste
of that blood of bliss, and simply thinking it's something else, like that bliss of
gods, blissful states of oneness or something. Then it bites again and again,
sucking and sucking on that bliss of biting its own tail. "It hurts but, oh, I cannot
get enough of it, that nectar of existence!"
This is like being addicted to the bliss or the oneness of heaven. It's like the Self
becoming a dog. God becomes a dog who bites his own tail and sucks his own
blood out of that bliss, because it thinks, "This is something different that gives
me something." In one split second, it sees it's its own tail, "Oh, I'm biting my
own tail! I am the blood itself. I am That which is the dog." Then it's God again.
But in that idea, you become a dog. Then it really becomes a dog's life. Very
dogmatic. [group laughs]
That's where it comes from. You become a dog and you become dogmatic. Then
you write "dog-uments" about it. [more group laughter] It all comes from that.
Dog dreams, "dog-tors"—
MARY: I never go to "dog-tors"!
KARL: Now you see it's a joke. Ha, ha, ha.
LIZ: I'm going to sit here dogmatically, until the dogma of it—
KARL: Yeah, it's another dogma!
LIZ: I'm going to abide in it until I understand it. I'm going to come back and
back!
KARL: "I'm going to sit here until I get it!" [group laughs]
LIZ: Until the dogma is set.
KARL: Dog, sit! Bow wow!
FRANCESCO: What is nice, is that after, I don't remember anything. Not only
this, but in my life.
THERESE: That's why you come back in the morning! [group laughs]
KARL: It's the grace of forgetfulness. Bow wow wow! Sofia soon comes
barking.
MARY: Francesco, me too.

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SOFIA: Perhaps not only you. Perhaps many others! [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: Can I touch your feet? [big group laughter]
ANTONIO: Some sadhana for him. Please allow.
FRANCESCO: I want to control—
KARL: He wants to control me.
FRANCESCO: No, not that. I want to control, but maybe I made a mistake. So
maybe touch this and control another time.
MONIKA: Maybe this will work!
KARL: Just in case.
A German MAN: Maybe there will be a miracle from touching your feet.
KARL: A miracle? Yeah, yeah. Ein Mirakel wird von oben (a miracle will come
from above). Miracle Whip. [group laughs] So some questions about the dog?
MONIKA: It's God spelled backwards.
KARL: It's the opposite only, the reverse. God reversed is dog. First you become
a dog by "I am who?," getting into the dogma of concept, and then with the
question "Who am I?," the dog becomes God again. But the whole way, there
was God, as a dog or as God, makes no difference.
SOFIA: The last teaching.
KARL: It makes no difference.
FRANCESCO: Tell me this consciousness—
KARL: What?
FRANCESCO: It's not normal. [group laughs]
KARL: Normal?
FRANCESCO: I don't believe it.
KARL: It's like the split second. You step into the "I am who?" and become a
dog—still God, but as a dog—and then one moment, you "Bow wow wow, Oh,
God! Oh, yeah."
MARY: The consciousness is not natural.
KARL: In the old scriptures, they characterize consciousness as a bitch. And
you never know when consciousness will bite you. So you can behave well, and
for a while, it's very kind to you.

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FRANCESCO: No, no.
KARL: But one day—it bites you. Out of the blue, it bites you, so that's why it's
called "a bitch." You never know. It's totally unpredictable. That which is this,
what is consciousness, the manifestation of whatever, is unpredictable. You can
never predict what comes next.
But you try so hard to control the next moment, living out of the past into the
future, you want to control the future by wanting to control the past, by clearing
the past, by unlocking the knots of karma, maybe, even then, you want to
control the next karmic step. In that control system, you are as a dog. But to see
the unpredictable nature of existence, and to be That, unpredictable—pow!
MARY: That's really cool.
KARL: It's really cool! Or hot. It's very hot. Can you take the heat you are?
FRANCESCO: No, no.
KARL: No one can take it. But for what you are, it's nothing. But you can never
take it, as you cannot own it. But simply by being it, nothing is more simple than
that. Simplicity itself. By being it. But not by becoming it. Hmm?
ROSA: I'm speechless. It seems so simple.
KARL: Because it is so simple, it's impossible to do.
ROSA: The mind doesn't like simplicity.
KARL: The mind? What mind?
ROSA: [pointing to her head] That one.
KARL: That one? That one which is not. The one which is not doesn't like what
is not neither. That sounds good.
ROSA: It's a nice phantom.
KARL: Phantom likes to be confused.
ROSA: You know, today I had the idea, "I understand, so this must be wrong,
because it's beyond understanding." [laughs] So I felt guilty that I understood.
KARL: Oh, that's good. Doubting whatever you can understand. Totally doubt
it. Become that total doubting. Because whatever is new, cannot be it. You are
still in spite of whatever understanding, however beautiful it can be. Whatever
makes sense or not, in spite of it, you are. It will go again. So don't hang on it.
Because the trip is always that you hang on whatever blissful experience you
take as understanding, as deep. "And I was never as close as then, to what I am."
What an idea?!

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ROSA: Then it's gone. It was just a moment.
KARL: You simply make a document out of an experience. You take it
personally, to make it a history, even you want to make a personal history out of
Self-experience. But there is no history in Self. Never will be.
ROSA: So I must doubt myself?
KARL: If this happens here, now, that you doubt even this understanding which
comes—if you doubt totally and say "no, no, no, no"—then stay in that no-no,
and just simply see what comes out of that no-no. Nothing will come out of it.
So when nothing is rising out of that no-no, which is Heart, this non-happening,
this non-event, this no-no, will become what you are, that emptiness of a non-
event. This is the emptiness of Heart. That is peace, an emptiness of Heart which
contains the fullness of existence.
But with the slightest idea of ownership, you occupy it. With the slightest idea,
"I understood," there is one who understands, and that one who understands
occupies the whole of whatever is Heart at that moment. So whatever you
define, whatever understanding is yours, this "me," this "mine," this ownership,
is a heart-knot, and with this knot, you're always in that pressure.
ROSA: It's great!
KARL: It's great! So the no-no—
MARY: Absolute neti-neti—
KARL: Yeah, the absolute no-no is an absolute yes to be That which is, but
without saying it, being quiet. Whatever comes is an absolute no-no to what
comes and goes. That is an absolute yes. But that is a quiet yes. A silent yes,
without anyone who says it. But that no-no is depending on the consciousness,
so that consciousness has to go to the no-no. That which is silence itself, which
is an absolute yes to existence, is simply what it is. Sounds good, no? But it's
another document in time.
MRS. ANGELINA: Karl, perhaps I don't understand what you say. Are you
saying that out of this nothing, something comes?
KARL: No. Because there is nothing, there can be something. So out of nothing,
something has to be. Because as long as there is nothing, there has to be
something.
MRS. ANGELINA: It's not clear.
KARL: Yeah, I hope so! If you understand that, there is no one who understands
anymore.

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MRS. ANGELINA: Good.
KARL: Good? So you'd better take care about your non-understanding, because
that keeps you as you are.
MRS. ANGELINA: Yes, but non-understanding, forgetting, another movie,
another movie. What's the use?
[Mrs. Angelina is serious and upset. The boisterous room becomes silent.]
KARL: Don't ask me.
MRS. ANGELINA: You can't use anything. Nothing is real then.
KARL: But is that relevant?
MRS. ANGELINA: It seems relevant.
KARL: But to talk, to make that a statement, is that relevant?
MRS. ANGELINA: Just put together any kind of words, you know? Just put
together any kind of action, it doesn't matter what, blah, blah, making together
another movie, another time, another timeless you—
KARL: No, now you are talking out of the person who wants to make
everything the same. This is boring personal history.
MRS. ANGELINA: It's not boring. It's relevant.
KARL: But that relevance for the person makes it a boring story. Because it's an
idea.
MRS. ANGELINA: So what's the use of learning anything?
KARL: Why not?
MRS. ANGELINA: To unlearn?
KARL: What "unlearn"?
MRS. ANGELINA: To unlearn what we already know and shouldn't know.
KARL: For what?
MRS. ANGELINA: For no reason.
KARL: So learning for no reason and unlearning for no reason. Both—
MRS. ANGELINA: Both are irrelevant.
KARL: Both are irrelevant. So what? It's fun.
MRS. ANGELINA: It's confusing.

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KARL: So what?
MRS. ANGELINA: So what!
KARL: You are That which is confusion. Who cares? Huh?
MRS. ANGELINA: Out of nothing is nothing rising. Nothing rising out of this
nothing!
KARL: I tell you!
MRS. ANGELINA: You start like this—
KARL: No, I'm not starting. As long as there is the idea of "nothing," there is
something. Nothing is too much.
MRS. ANGELINA: It's already too much. Something—
KARL: As long as there is nothing, there is something. Out of emptiness comes
form. So even the idea of "emptiness" creates form. You cannot avoid that.
Nothing is the same. Or, you can make another concept that everything is
unique, every moment is as unique as it can be. As the Self is always absolutely
unique in its expression, then whatever comes is never the same. There is no
boredom.
There is only boredom the moment there is a history of experiences and you
want to compare. At the moment you are a dog, you are boredom itself. Because
you write everything down in a history of your thing, and you want to make it
relevant or irrelevant, and whatever comes out of that traps you into that
loneliness. That's boring. "Owner of a lonely heart." Francesco! Enjoying
himself.
FRANCESCO: Oh, I don't know.
MRS. ANGELINA: Neti-neti is not like this.
KARL: Yeah, but who cares?
MRS. ANGELINA: Nobody cares.
KARL: But you care that you don't care?
MRS. ANGELINA: Nobody don't care.
KARL: No?
MRS. ANGELINA: No problem. Everything I can hear or see, I cannot say to
anyone.
KARL: Aw.

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MRS. ANGELINA: No problem.
KARL: Sounds good.
MRS. ANGELINA: Maybe—
KARL: Maybe.
MRS. ANGELINA: It's not a definition that you can say, "Oh, this is maybe
another concept, another loneliness, another boredom, another teacher, frame,
definition of something." After one second, it's different. Then, I could say,
"Yes, maybe it's like this, so I can keep this good thing tomorrow." But this
time, it's not like this anymore.
KARL: Don't ask me.
MRS. ANGELINA: Who do I have to ask?
KARL: I have no idea. I'm not a pastor who gives confirmation.
MRS. ANGELINA: If I want confirmation, I don't come here.
KARL: You see?
MRS. ANGELINA: Maybe I go to some other possibility.
KARL: Many possibilities. Confirmed.
MRS. ANGELINA: Timeless time gone very fast. One day so short.
KARL: What day?
MRS. ANGELINA: From the night to the sunrise to the sunset. So fast.
KARL: Or very slow, huh? [birds are chirping loudly] It's a wedding or
something!
[Silence.]
KARL: So is everything okay?
[Silence.]
MRS. ANGELINA: I don't like silence.
KARL: Who doesn't?
MARY: You're holding us.
KARL: Yeah. If you move it, you don't see it.
[Silence.]

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EMMA: I'm very much amazed you are talking every day two hours about what
you can't talk about. It's a miracle.
KARL: Yeah, if "I" could do that. That's amazing, incredible, like Incredible
India. It's a bluff.
EMMA: [laughing] It's a bluff?
KARL: Yeah, it's a bluff.
MRS. ANGELINA: Don't say this is a bluff.
KARL: What?
MRS. ANGELINA: You know what is not a bluff.
KARL: What is not a bluff?
MRS. ANGELINA: Some moment, some expression, the one you can receive,
perhaps is not a blah, blah.
[Silence.]
KARL: [rubbing hands and clapping] No question? Then we are through? Okay.
Thank you.
GROUP: Thank you.
FRANCESCO: So can I touch your feet? [group laughs]

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January 21, 2004: Always in spite, never
because; or, the end of "acceptance"

Consciousness is inexhaustible
LOUISE: You bow to her. It's so masterful.
KARL: Bow wow.
LOUISE: Nicht (not) boo, bow.
KARL: Boo-boo. Always the naughty things you put down. The nice things you
never give me.
SOFIA: Oh yes. Rare. [group laughs] You never give any nice things.
GROUP: Aw!
SOFIA: I'm just doing what you are saying. That's it. Nothing else.
KARL: Okay. You get back what you deserve, I know. Sounds good. Can you
see? Can she see? Can we see?
A WOMAN: [inquiring] Is there anything to see?
LOUISE: [laughing] Is there anything to see!
KARL: Still two minutes to go. We can have some fun. Everything fine?
SOFIA: It's better not to ask.
KARL: Oh, I like to ask. Okay, then. Same procedure as everyday—no
procedure. If you're new, it is like question-answer. Simply informal. Whoever
has a question, it may be answered.
FRANCESCO: And "may be" is true!
KARL: Francesco!
FRANCESCO: You told me only ten percent.
KARL: I give you nil.
FRANCESCO: I talk—oh no!—I started up. [group laughs]
KARL: You promised yourself not to talk.
SOFIA: He said, "I will not ask him anything today!"

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FRANCESCO: We start now, no? [group laughs]
LOUISE: So it appears that, if there are clear instructions, one to ten, or if there
is a belief—you can select whatever—it appears that things can be easy, if there
is a structure. So if you were to give us one-to-ten instructions—-
KARL: Instructions?
LOUISE: Why does it appear so easy in life when you follow certain
instructional rules? Like you purchase a machine, right, and you read the
instructions and it tells you how to plug it in and—boom—it functions.
KARL: Manual. You need a "man-u-el." Manuel. [group laughs]
LOUISE: So, Karl, the confusion only begins if there is no instruction and no
structure and no guidelines.
KARL: Yeah, it's good.
LOUISE: Why would it be good?
KARL: Because whatever can be confused, should be confused. That which you
are can never be confused by any confusion. That which is left over, total
leftover, is always That which can never be and never was and never will be
confused, by whatever confusion.
LOUISE: [laughing] Okay, paβ auf (watch out)!
KARL: You asked for it! [group laughs]
LOUISE: It's always like this—ah ya, ah ya, okay, okay, thank you, thank you,
and then boom! Finished.
KARL: Yeah, that's the point.
LOUISE: Machine broken.
KARL: This is not for giving you some techniques to occupy your time for years
to come, so you get out of whatever boredom you are in and you have something
to do. It's not the right place here. Bang bang bang.
LOUISE: Bang, bang. Yeah.
KARL: The simple answer is, what you are, you cannot find in time or in space
or in any circumstance. So whatever technique, it's nice, it keeps you occupied,
but it will not bring you what you are. So, what to do then? A nice ten to one,
and then? You count back down to one, and then? You count again, one, two,
three, ten, and then? Down again. Infinite.

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LOUISE: There's a constant weaving in and out of easy and difficult, easy and
difficult.
KARL: There's an ease and there's a disease. Ease and "dis-ease." Health and
sickness come together.
LOUISE: Hmm.
KARL: The sickness you may cure always comes back. You are asking for a
technique to get out of the disease of ignorance, but the ignorance that can go,
can come back.
LOUISE: Uh-huh.
KARL: So what to do with that? You still will be depending on something to go.
Imagine freedom and the dependency that something has to go for freedom, so
freedom can be what freedom is—what an idea?
LOUISE: Yeah.
KARL: Then it will be your freedom, because you had a technique to count
down to. You will put it in your pocket, and what then? "Ooh, that's the one who
has freedom!" I hope not. So it's "and then."
LOUISE: And then I get this headache again, and you say there is no
transmission. [laughs] You know, I can feel it right now again. Then you say
there is no such thing as transmission or radiation of shakti.
KARL: No, it's not a transmission.
LOUISE: What is it then? Why do I feel it right now when you speak to me, and
it goes and it goes and it goes?
KARL: And I see it and I see it and I see it.
LOUISE: Yes, yes, and then, boom!
KARL: This is not a transmission as I am talking to That which you are and not
to any ghost. So I'm not transmitting anything. I don't have to penetrate
anything, as I am talking to That which I am. There is no transmission, there is
no transmitter, and there is no receiver.
And in this absence of a transmitter and a receiver, life wakes up. That you feel
as shakti, heat, body heat. Then that resistance of the third eye starts. Then you
get a headache or migraine out of that heat or energy, which is simply arising
because there's an absence of a transmitter and a receiver, as that awareness of
that life itself wakes up in every cell. And then the resistance of the controller
brings headache.

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LOUISE: The resistance of the controller?
KARL: Because you want to know, you want to control your energy, this idea of
"my energy," this "me," is always a controller idea. So whatever comes then, you
want to make it your energy, your control system, yeah? Then comes resistance,
and then you become a little pipe, and the energy has to go through a little pipe,
and then it becomes headache. With controlling, you want to narrow down.
When you control, you are narrow. But you cannot help it.
LOUISE: No. Just breathe.
KARL: Just breathe. [both laugh] No, I tell you, I went through five years of
migraine, and I know where it comes from. And the moment it went, it was just
gone. Because with the controller, everything goes. Then there is simply a total
openness of all the parts when that acceptance is there without any control
system.
I feel your heat here and now, all this energy, but it doesn't bother this [points to
his body], whatever is here, at all. It goes in and out, like waves of energy. But
its not my energy, or anything. It just comes and goes.
Controlling, controlling. [Louise breathes deeply] Intense. You have some
question about that?
MATHILDA: Yeah, I was wondering why aspirin is not working.
KARL: No. Because this is not a chemical thing that you can solve by another
chemical. No, I tried. When this migraine was there, I tried everything. Forget it.
Homeopathy, allopathy, blah, blah, blah. Antipathy.
ROSA: [laughing] Antipathy!
KARL: Yeah, sympathy didn't work either.
SOFIA: So the controller can fall down, or not?
KARL: Oh, it was by seeing the Mahabharata on television. Going through all
the free will and all the Krishna stuff, and the final thing, going with Yudhistara
to heaven and hell and being totally identified with Yudhistara, with that
character. And then, not wanting to stay in heaven because in heaven there were
only enemies, he went to hell, and Krishna asked him, "Could you accept hell
for eternity? Is there any wish to avoid that, any tendency left for you to avoid
what is hell, what is separation?"
Then it was simply an absolute no. "I've absolutely worn out that tendency."
And then at that moment there was total acceptance, total breakdown of control.
SOFIA: In the total "no," there was acceptance.

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KARL: In the total "no way out." There was hell, and there was no wish to go
out of it, simply no idea of exit anymore. "If it should be like this, it's like this.
Okay." Absolute acceptance, without even saying it. In total acceptance, the
controller is not there. And without the controller, all the resistance and all the
migraine dropped at that moment and didn't come back.
But it's not by anyone's free decision to drop it. Acceptance is when acceptance
is, and not because of any technique you do, because whatever technique you
use is against it. Whenever you try to control acceptance, you want it to become
your acceptance. You want even to control acceptance, and then it becomes even
more narrow.
So I say the techniques are all against that acceptance, in a way. Because
whatever you do is against it. You want to control it by your technique. You
want to make it your acceptance. So you become more and more a controller.
You become even the god, the avatar of the universe, by controlling it. Because
in consciousness, there's no limit to it, of controlling. So you become even the
greater god of the universe, but you are still "an owner of a lonely heart."
PETE: There's this imagined person who's doing all this seeking and trying to
control— Maybe there'd be some benefit to just tell this imagined person,
"Yeah, do your seeking, keep trying to control"—until it just collapses, you
know? Just keep trying, keep trying—
KARL: No, it cannot collapse because that is consciousness already, and
consciousness is inexhaustible. If it would be like a person you could exhaust,
because there is a personal energy you could exhaust, it would be easy. Then
there's a technique of Yoga where you could exhaust that personal energy. But
as that person already is consciousness itself, it's inexhaustible because there's
an inexhaustible energy.
There's absolute consciousness and you cannot exhaust that. It will always have
another trick in the book to avoid that exhaustion. Suddenly, there's a second
wind, and a third wind, and a fifth wind, and whatever comes for that seeking.
PETE: There's never the collapse.
KARL: It will never collapse, because there is nothing to collapse. There is
absolute consciousness, and that idea that consciousness is so real and so
absolute—you cannot exhaust that idea. Because even that idea is absolute.
Those ideas of exhaustion, they work within certain frames. Say, you're a
runner. You might have the idea you get exhausted after forty miles or fifty
miles or ten miles or one mile or even a hundred meters. But a marathon runner
might, after twenty kilometers, have a break where he feels he cannot even walk

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anymore, but suddenly there's a dead point, a point of acceptance, and he runs
again as if he'd never run before.
You never know—that energy is such a mystical, such a miraculous, such a
magical whatever. Inexhaustible. If it has to happen, if it's meant to happen that
you run again, you will run and run and run.
PETE: I did so many sadhanas like a lot of people, and then it seemed to hit a
crisis where I realized the futility of this, you know? But what you're saying is
that, as soon as you get some rest, that little make-believe man jumps up and
starts doing his sadhanas again. Or maybe not. Maybe he wakes up?
KARL: Maybe not. I don't know. Not because you made sadhana will you
resign from it. If it was meant like this, it would be like Ramana saying,
"Because I was lucky, I came to this world and went straight to That on the only
'Who am I?' without going first through all the other things." So you never
know. It's a mystery. Absolute mystery. There is no rule in it. Absolute
rulelessness.
There is nothing I would say you could frame into some rule or technique. There
is no "because" in anything. There is only "in spite." Any moment it can change
totally to something else. It's not like coming from A to B with all the technique
between, and then you exhaust your sadhana, and then you become more
conscious, and then you are more aware because, blah, blah, blah, the card house
falls down—no. You have to be in spite of the seeking, in spite of sadhana, not
because of some stopping. Again and again, I hammer on that—that in spite of
knowing or not knowing, you are what you are, not because.
That knowledge you can gain, it's second-hand anyway. So forget it. That
knowledge that comes because of an absence of mind or a blank mind, it's
dependent again.
PETE: But that collapsing, where you become completely naked and then you
can go through the eye of the needle—I'm not saying that because of sadhanas
you can achieve something—but sometimes that nakedness point arrives when
you've tried so many sadhanas, you've poured everything out, and then it's all a
big failure for you, and then suddenly sometimes, you get that nakedness right
there, there's a moment when you realize—
KARL: But every night you have that nakedness in deep sleep. So you could
make sadhana to sleep. Do you have any sleeping pill and technique for
sleeping in deep sleep? Is it because you make your sadhana that you go to deep
sleep? In deep sleep, no one worries about sadhana or knowing or not knowing
or whatever will come in the next moment, because there is no worrier, there is
no question and no answer. So you make your sadhana that you get sleep?

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PETE: [laughing] Unless waking is sadhana. I don't know. Once I'm slept out, I
have to be awake for a while until I can sleep again.
KARL: So because you sleep, you wake up again. Sounds good. "I sleep so I
can wake up again, and I wake up so I can sleep again." Infinite circle—you
exhaust yourself that you can sleep again, and then because you're fresh, you can
exhaust yourself that you can sleep again. This is sadhana, even as a spiritual
technique then. You want to use that technique to get exhausted that you can
sleep better, and then you wake up very refreshed for work again. Sounds good.
But this is like it is. Look at the world. So many big masters went into the
samadhi of awareness, for a thousand years sometimes, but then they woke up
again and worked. That dream has all these kinds of waking up and exhaustion
and refreshment and doing and not doing. Your idea of "total resignation
because of exhaustion" doesn't work. You cannot exhaust what you are. It
sounds always nice and good and very logical, but it doesn't work. It works if
you want to buy a Mercedes or have a new house or some goal like this. You
can have an A-to-B, step-by-step approach to reach that. But not for That which
you are seeking.
So that precious mind, that precious intelligence, you can dump into the next
rubbish, because for That it won't work. But it's beautiful, huh, that it doesn't
work? You have a tool, you can use it, but it doesn't work anyway. Okay. You
play with it. You play with the mind, you play with intelligence, you play with
sadhana—that is meditation. You simply play. You get entertained.
You are in the Self-entertainment only when you have no result coming out of it.
At the moment you have an expectation of a result, you're working, then you are
working really hard. You want even to have the result of becoming what you
are. My goodness! "That will be my Self. I reached myself." What kind of self
would it be that you could reach?
CHARLES: A limited self.
KARL: Yeah. Relative self, relative freedom, relative whatever. Limited,
limited, limited. So what? So what is all this "personal freedom"? An idea.
Simply an idea. It's nice, but it's worth nothing. So still in spite you are, not
because of your doing or not doing. If you see it, if you really see, that you are
in spite of your sadhanas, in spite of what you have done or not done, in spite of
your sins or not sins, in spite of your guilt or not guilt, really in spite, always in
spite, never because—that's freedom already. My goodness.

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That which is Self doesn't know Self
MATHILDA: But can you see that?
KARL: Of course you can see that. You can see that you cannot be what you
can see. That is being That which is seeing itself. When you are That which is
seeing itself, there is absolutely no idea in that seeing itself of what it is and
what it is not. You simply exist as that seeing without any concept of what you
are and what you are not. Whatever you see, you cannot be. How can you not
see that, as you always see that?
You always experience, but whatever you experience, you cannot be. Because
what you experience is not a second, is in time, is an idea, an image. But that
eye of what is seeing, that eye that is sight itself, cannot see itself. So what? You
can only see, but you cannot be what you see.
But for seeing, you have to exist. That existence is naked. So whatever you take
as a dress of seeing, you're dressed by what you imagine. But it's simply a dress.
You're nakedness all the time, although you dress yourself with concepts,
mistaking those images for real and wearing them. This body is worn by what
you are, but the body will be gone like any other dress. You put it on and you
take it off, but you still are that naked existence. So what? There's nothing
wrong with the body, or any dress, but see it as a dressing! But if you take the
dressing as real, you are in the salad. [group laughs] No? Quite a big salad!
MATHILDA: Not to identify with it.
KARL: Even that is a concept.
MATHILDA: Yeah. For example, instead of going to a temple, I go to the
market, and I know I would rather go to the temple, for my head, but I am going
to the market and I am just doing what I'm doing. I have no choice. I'm doing it.
I see I'd rather go to the temple, but now I'm here in the market. So I accept this.
And it's easy then.
KARL: No. It's not in your hands to accept that. It's still a personal acceptance
and means nothing. The temporary little acceptance of seeing something, this is
understanding by mind.
But I'm talking about being That which is prior to whatever idea, being that
acceptance which has no second, as there is no second anything even to accept.
This effortlessness of you nature, that nakedness, I'm talking about, and not
about some understanding that "in spite of wanting to be there, I'm here." I'm not
talking about that "in spite." No, this will come and go. Don't worry. It's not
even there. I'm talking about what is understanding itself, knowledge itself,
which never was gone.

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The knowledge that you exist, in whatever idea or concept, that knowledge of
that existence was never gone. So you never lost that absolute knowledge that
you are. It is in spite of all the relative knowing or not knowing, not because.
This is acceptance to be That which is acceptance. As that absolute knowledge
was never lost, so you are in that Absolute, but not by knowing or not knowing.
MATHILDA: That's what I mean. You cannot know it nor not know it.
KARL: Yeah. You are that paradox. You cannot not know it, but you can
neither know it nor not know it. Knowing and not knowing are there because
you are. So in spite of the knowing and not knowing, you are. That is absolute
existence. So in spite of relative or not relative existence, you are That which is
absolute existence.
The relative existence and non-relative existence, the limited and unlimited, are
there because you are, but you have no idea of limited or unlimited, because
even the idea of being unlimited is limitation. Whatever defining you do, you
frame yourself. But in order for you to frame yourself, prior to that, you have to
exist. So I ask you to be prior to what is a concept already, of "I," of even
awareness, to be That which is that "absolute prior"—that I am speaking to, to
that nakedness alone.
So in spite of your understanding, in spite of your little acceptance, you are. Not
because. A little personal peace may be with it, or freedom. But this little
personal freedom or peace goes again. You may think it's a way out, but no.
LOUISE: It comes in handy. It's like a little toolbox.
KARL: Sounds good.
LOUISE: So if you are in a stressful situation, you can reach out to that part.
You know, it's kind of comfortable then. You know, if you are in stress and you
know how to relax, it comes in handy.
KARL: Yeah, sounds good. But what can relax is still very tense. Even in that
personal relaxation, you are already in waiting for getting back to the stress. I'm
talking about that absolute relaxation, where there is no second, there is no one
left to be in any tension, in any relationship.
LOUISE: But meanwhile, what do you do?
KARL: Meanwhile? There is no meanwhile.
LOUISE: [laughing] Meanwhile, I can't go on like this all the time!
KARL: Time is very mean, I know. "Mean-while." Time means there is a
second. And after a second, there comes a minute, and after a minute there

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comes an hour, and after an hour comes a year, and blah, blah, blah. So with the
first second, time starts.
To see the first second, stay in That which is prior to the second, to that image.
Then you see that time is a child of you, you're not a child of time. That's the
difference. There may be time and non-time, and all the experiences and images,
but they are all a child of you. You are not a child of time.
You are prior to that absolute Source, wherein all the images appear, but you
yourself are not an appearance, as you cannot imagine what you are. Whatever
you can imagine as a second self—at the moment "me" and "myself" appears—
already that self is fake. The lie starts, and you are the liar. So whatever comes
out of you is a lie. Is that true?
LOUISE: [laughing] Okay. Yes!
KARL: You see, about a lie you don't care, but about truth you make a very big
fuss. So that's why I am calling you the absolute liar you are. Whatever comes
out of you is a lie. So whatever comes out of you, you cannot be. It's simply a
reflection, an aspect, and it's no different from what you are, but it's not what
you are, as in spite of that you are. But it's wonderful. It's freedom. What to do?
Imagine you could control yourself, as you try now. [Louise laughs]
SOFIA: Karl, you said you have just to see. That means intuition.
KARL: Yeah.
SOFIA: Is this the "split second"? You have just to see.
KARL: Just see. Not, "You have just to see." Just see. When you just see, there
is no one who makes a concept about anything. Just see, because that seeing is
prior to time and non-time. If you just see, you are simply That which is
perception itself, and you are prior to time, which is an appearance in That
which you are. Whatever appears and disappears in you is simply like a coming
and going of shadows. But you are the infinite light that all the shadows are by.
So what?
FRANCESCO: It's so hard to understand what you mean by "just see."
SOFIA: It is the apperception?
KARL: Maybe.
An Australian MAN: You mean seeing without a seer?
KARL: Yeah, because within that absolute perception, the perceiver appears. So
that experiencer that wakes up in the morning appears in That which is
perceiving itself. You are that absolute perceiver which is a never a part of what

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you can perceive. The separate perceiver, "me," and whatever body, images,
appear in That, but you are never part of the appearances. So be That which is
seeing itself.
The seer comes always later, is always second. But first there is seeing and then
comes "the seer" as an idea. So don't be the idea, be That which is prior to the
idea. Prior to the idea of "I" is That which is the "I," what is experiencing the
"I." First there is seeing itself, and then comes the seer, or the "I." So be That
which is Heart itself, wherein the "I" appears.
FRANCESCO: Too, too, too—
KARL: Too what? It's very easy!
FRANCESCO: No, it's too difficult to remember. Bye-bye, this.
KARL: You can never remember. My goodness.
FRANCESCO: Oh, God, everyday you talk and I don't remember what you said
yesterday! Everyday is new, and everyday I think, "What does this mean? I don't
remember what you said yesterday."
KARL: Look at the beauty of it, that you cannot remember yesterday, or even
the moment before.
FRANCESCO: It's stressful.
KARL: Only if you try to remember, it's stressful. If you see, there is nothing to
remember, it's fun, wonderful!
FRANCESCO: But why sit here? I need to remember to understand what you
say.
KARL: But you don't have to understand. [sternly] I tell you again and again,
you don't have to understand anything!
FRANCESCO: Yes, I know, but this is normal for me! [group laughs]
SOFIA: So in this apperception, there is no witness?
KARL: Even the witness is witnessed.
SOFIA: Yeah, okay.
KARL: So That which is the witness doesn't know any witness. You may call it
"the absolute witness," but the absolute witness doesn't know any witness. So
what is an idea of "witness" appears in that absolute witnessing. Sounds good.
ROSA: Is it like a baby that doesn't know anything, just opens the eyes?

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KARL: No, even prior to that. Because even in the baby there is a notion of
existence already. That notion of existence is already second-hand.
AIKO: It's already lying.
KARL: It's already lying. Lying down. No, you cannot place it in any object or
circumstance. It's always prior to whatever circumstance, even the circumstance
of the first notion of existence. Prior to that first state of "I," that first baby-like
"I"-awareness, is what you are as Heart.
You cannot place it in any circumstance, to say, "As a baby I was better off. I
want to be a baby again." You are still longing then for some special
circumstance; you think that in that special circumstance you are better off. But
you have to be what you are, Heart itself, wherein all these states appear, but
you never are an appearance.
So you have to be in any circumstance what you are. If you are only what you
are in special circumstances, such as a baby, you are again dependent. And That
which is Heart can never depend on any special circumstance. So I am asking
you to be That which you are by being That which is prior to whatever you can
imagine.
ROSA: That makes me not here right now.
KARL: No. Only you want to understand that.
ROSA: Yeah, exactly.
KARL: Then you have a knot around your heart. You want to make it your
understanding. So again, you want to control yourself. But this is unavoidable.
ROSA: Old story.
KARL: Old story. That is called the "heart-knot," the attempt, the intention, to
control yourself by the first wish to know yourself. By the wish to know
yourself, you step out of the paradise of that absolute "not-knowing" you are.
Yeah, stress. As soon as you attempt to know yourself, you create a second self.
You imagine a second self you could know, and that already is separation.
But the first notion, the first waking up to that wish, you cannot avoid. You
cannot not wish a wish. As the wish comes out of the wishlessness, you cannot
not wish the wish, the wish to know yourself.
ROSA: So it doesn't even need courage?
KARL: No.
ROSA: Even that is already a sensation.

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KARL: Nothing is needed. Whatever you create is coming out of that idea to
wish or to control yourself. Then you need something. But if you are in that total
understanding of what is existence, you can never be controlled by That which is
existence, as there is no second edition of existence. You are That which has no
second edition of existence. Hallelujah. What to do?
This controllessness is paradise. But any attempt to control yourself, and you are
in that hell. You become a devil who wants to control God. There is a devil in
"me," or "me" in God. And the "me" is a devil, and God has to be controlled by
that devil, "me." That is how hell appears with the first lie and the first liar,
"me." Whatever comes out of it, is a lie.
ROSA: That's the original sin, then, I guess?
KARL: And you are the original sinner. You cannot blame anyone else. You can
only blame yourself. But that would be stupid.
ROSA: But it's also yourself.
KARL: It's not myself.
ROSA: It's "our-self."
KARL: It's not even "our-self."
ROSA: It's myself?!
KARL: It's especially yourself! [group laughs] As long as you see it as yourself,
"our-self," all this comes out of yourself. But I have no idea where it comes
from.
ROSA: But there is no "myself."
KARL: No? Who tells you?
ROSA: You.
KARL: Me? There's not even Self, I tell you, because even "Self" is an idea.
And for what you are, there's not even Self. There's a total Selflessness. That
which is Self doesn't know Self, so what to do? There is no myself, there is no
yourself, there's not even Self. So there is not my bag and your bag. Bag is for
everyone. Bag off. Back off. [group laughs]
FRANCESCO: Drink.
KARL: Oh, the famous drink again. Today's looks really good.
THERESE: The color changed.
KARL: Yesterday, it looked like lemonade, but this is brown. Healthy.

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MONIKA: Hell-o.
KARL: Oh, hell-thy. Hallelujah.
FRANCESCO: Did you put sugar?
KARL: No, it's tea or something. What is it?
MAN who made the drink for Karl: Noni juice.
A WOMAN: Nomi juice. Tropical?
KARL: No me?
MONIKA: No me! Finally we know the secret! [big group laughter]
THERESE: We can go out and buy it!
KARL: It's a "no-me" juice. You can buy it in the Ramana Supermarket. Not in
the ashram, but in the market across the street.

The idea of "better" is already quite worse

LIZ: Karl, I have a question that rolls around the mind. I can't quite get an
answer that satisfies me, so I'm sure you'll sort this one out. What is it that
reincarnates? If we are never born and we never die—the fetus comes through,
the Self is there waiting to just stand within the fetus and the adult and so on? I
keep wondering, what the hell is it that reincarnates, and why do we bother?
MONIKA: Yeah, right.
LIZ: If the Self can't be born and can't die, what is reincarnating? The mind?
KARL: Tendencies. Action-reaction of consciousness is transforming infinitely.
You can call it "karmic consciousness," "karmic energy." A chain reaction of
energy. So there is here, now, incarnated consciousness.
MONIKA: Desires?
KARL: All is consciousness. You cannot say desires incarnate.
LIZ: So molecules that stick together all the time?
KARL: No molecules! Consciousness as That which is molecules, what is the
energy of existence which is "pure shakti," you may call it, or "consciousness,"
or whatever.

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LIZ: We don't get the same thing over the same—the same self doesn't keep
coming back to the same bunch of molecules? It's just there to be used as it
comes through the body.
KARL: What body?
LIZ: The dress.
KARL: So this body is molecules, but this is like an "in-form-ation" in what
dream? There are not even molecules that are building something. Where are the
molecules you're built of? You go back and back and you can't even find
anything.
The whole scientific world, for centuries, they want to find matter, but they
haven't found any matter up until now. So it doesn't matter. [group laughs] So
first find something that has incarnated and then we can talk about what that is.
But as they never found anything that is incarnated, it doesn't matter.
LIZ: It doesn't really matter, I know that. It's just my mind keeps rolling this one
around. It won't let it go.
KARL: Enjoy it.
LIZ: Keep it alive.
KARL: Why not ponder about it? If you would see, you ponder about matter,
but as you cannot find matter, it doesn't matter.
LIZ: It really doesn't matter. I think what's going on is it's an old concept of how
it works that I can't have anymore, so I'm needing a new concept.
KARL: You can't get over your Buddhist nature. No, I don't know.
LIZ: I see what I'm doing. It's an old concept that's been killed, and I want to
have another one to take it's place.
KARL: You want to have a better one instead.
LIZ: A different one. That void is very hard.
KARL: Only a better one could replace that not-so-good one.
LIZ: One that fits.
KARL: Until now, you've found only not-so-good ones.
LIZ: I've found nothing!
KARL: Yeah, but "nothing" cannot replace something, because "nothing" is
again something.

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LIZ: Maybe sitting in the void, sitting in nothing, is helpful.
KARL: No.
LIZ: I have to have something?
KARL: No, no. You have to become emptiness itself.
LIZ: It takes some time.
KARL: It doesn't take time. It's here, now. It never takes any time to be That
which is emptiness. But to become emptiness, it may take eternity, because you
can never become emptiness. But here, now, you are emptiness, so there is no
time in it. And by being That which is emptiness, you are That which is fullness.
But not by becoming emptiness, you become fullness.
If you try to become emptiness, you will never reach it. There will always be
one too many—that one who is emptiness. And this one who was never there,
you cannot get rid of .
LIZ: There's nothing to do.
KARL: I don't know. Even that "nothing" is too much. First find one who did
anything at all, who has something to do. So by not finding that, by that question
"Who am I?," by not finding that Self which has done or not done anything, by
that absolute not finding what you are, there is freedom, there is peace of that
absolute existence that doesn't know to exist even. But not by anything that you
can achieve. Schief (slanting, bent, distorted). It's in meine schiefe Lage (my
predicament or awkward position). [group laughs]
Just see here, now, what is there. There is an experiencer experiencing what is
there to experience. All this that I just described, like an experience of an image,
appears in That which you are. And there is nothing right or wrong with it. It's
simply experiencing That which you are in whatever shape and form. So what to
do? As there is nothing incarnated here now, where is this idea of
"reincarnation"?
LIZ: It's just another concept, just another idea.
KARL: No, the easiest way to find what is reincarnated is not to find That which
is incarnated here and now. I promise you, you will not find what you are in any
circumstance. So by not finding That which you are in any circumstance or any
form or anything, who cares then about what you find? You find out that you
cannot find out what you are. What a paradox, hey?
LIZ: I know. It's always a paradox.

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KARL: So what would you gain with all the knowledge of the world, with
whatever understanding of physics and how this works or doesn't work, and
what is reincarnation and all that?
LIZ: You're right. It doesn't matter and it's just killing another concept. One
more concept—"reincarnation"—gone. Or working on leaving.
KARL: You're working on leaving? [group laughs]
LIZ: No, the concepts! I'm not leaving.
KARL: She's looking for the departure plane. It always sounds like, step by step,
you can become something less, you reach something. Again, it's a concept. It's
an idea. You cannot get "less enough" to be what you are. The whole knowledge
of the world, whatever you can know, cannot satisfy you.
LOUISE: And yet it appears that it gets better and better as you walk on this
path, whatever path it is you are walking. I mean, that's how I experience this
journey. It gets better and better.
KARL: But what can get better, can get worse again. That idea of "better" is
already quite worse.
LOUISE: But not at the big picture.
KARL: What big picture?
LOUISE: That three hundred sixty degrees, up and down, back and forth, there
is some—
KARL: Improvement?
LOUISE: No, I wouldn't call it "improvement," actually. It might even look
worse on the outside, but there's a sensation or an image, I don't know what it is,
but there is this essence, there is a texture to it. It feels better. I feel better now
than I felt when I was sitting with Osho. I feel better now than when I was a
suicidal teenager.
KARL: It's a different hormonal circumstance. Different hormones now than
were running your life then. Now the hormones are a bit quieter maybe. [group
laughs]
LOUISE: Sure they are.
KARL: I'm serious about this.
LOUISE: It appears that—
KARL: It's a relative peace now appearing.

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LOUISE: Relative peace. Okay.
KARL: It's a more personal peace coming because hormones are getting quieter.
After the menopause or something, they always—
MARY: Men-pause! [group laughs]
KARL: Pause from the men!
LIZ: After menopause, you get lighter.
KARL: And the last enlightenment is when you go to the grave. The flash light
of the photograph. No. It's still something you can find in the realm of the
mundane world. You can get quieter by whatever, but I'm never talking about
that peace. Because that is the relative peace. You can become very harmonious,
but it's in spite of that.
LOUISE: Yeah.
KARL: In spite of that, you are Teflon. Even that peace will not stick on you.

Only the mind minds the mind

KLARA: I have a question. There's a permanent reporter in me. It reports
everything. Changes, blah blah blah, everything.
KARL: Reporting, "Now more peace than yesterday." [group laughs]
KLARA: It's permanent. It leaves me alone in sleep, but I wake even in dreams
with the same guy. But I have a question—do you have that still?
KARL: The devil in my neck? That always talks to me? No, there is no
difference.
KLARA: Who is uninvited?
KARL: Oh my goodness. A guest you didn't invite. What do you do with a guest
you didn't invite and cannot get rid of?
KLARA: It's terrible.
KARL: Only because you want to get rid of that guest.
KLARA: Oh.
KARL: If you just let him talk, "Daily report." "Yes, sir." What to do with a
guest you cannot get rid of, as you say you cannot get rid of that reporter. The
moment this body wakes up, there is reporting. "How did I sleep? What did I
dream? What will happen today? Blah blah blah." What to do with it?

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You kill him by cognizance. You become totally cognizant of that reporter.
Because the devil is no different from what you are. This is an experience of
what you are. You are giving a report to yourself. There is no difference. All is
Heart. All is Self. When there is a second Self, it's no different from the first
Self. It's simply two appearances of one and a second.
There's an interaction as consciousness. It's a play. Acting. One role is the
reporter, and one role is "me." But in essence both are Self—Self taking the
image of me, and Self taking the image of this permanent reporter.
You kill them both by seeing that, in essence, they are no different from That
which you are. So by seeing whatever, or by being That which you are, then the
experiencer that is experiencing what you experience as a reporter is no
different. In essence, there is no difference. So what is the problem then when
the reporter reports something? Can freedom be bothered by freedom?
KLARA: No.
KARL: No, see? Freedom is all that is there. There is no moment without
freedom. So in that freedom, there is an image of an experiencer and a reporter,
there is an interaction of consciousness. So what? What to do with it?
KLARA: Just leave it in my head?
KARL: Who is bothered?
KLARA: Me!
KARL: Yeah, "me." So what is wrong with the "me" being bothered by
something else? Only you take yourself as a "me" and something else as a
second. Then everything is an enemy.
Out of that first lie that you exist, out of that first "any-me," you are in an enemy
situation. At the moment you are, as being born, or whatever, you create six
billion others, and these six billion others are enemies. As the first "me" already
is an enemy. So by being prior to the first "me," you are prior to those six
billion, whatever, images. So they are all living by what you are, but you are not
living by them.
What to do then with that first "me" and those six billion other ones, if you
cannot get rid of them? As you are that helplessness that cannot not imagine
itself as that one and six billion others, as you cannot not wake up to that
awareness of "I" and then "I am" and then the world, as you cannot not create by
being That which is absolute, That which is the manifestation—what to do?
Australian MAN: Have another beer.

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KARL: Have another coffee, yeah. And then you have a Shakespeare. When this
is gone, when Shakespeare is gone, when there is no question, "To be or not to
be?"—
KLARA: So that means that the reporter will always be? I mean, I hear the
mystics talking about the "no-mind" state—
KARL: Yeah, if you would recognize yourself in that "me," in the reporter, in
whatever you experience, consider it as no different from what you are. You are
That which is the experiencer experiencing what is experienced, in essence, as
you are That which is. In That, there was never any mind, there is no anything,
there is nothing that can disturb you, as That which is freedom itself cannot be
disturbed by freedom.
That freedom is the absence of a second. So whatever is there is an
entertainment of talking, the Self is talking with the Self. So what? Self-
entertainment. And who needs then the Self to shut up? What other Self?
So what is with this "no-mind"? The absolute no-mind is if you see that
whatever is, is the Self and being it. By being absolutely what you are, you are
That which is existence itself. So you are That. There never was, never will be,
any mind. So what is then the no-mind? There's neither mind nor no-mind. Both
are ideas.
And who needs a "no-mind"? The mind. Only the mind minds the mind. Never
mind! [group laughs]
Whatever you come up with comes out of that idea that something has to be
changed, something has to be different for what you are. It's all coming and
going and cannot unmake you, as nothing ever could make you. So what then?
KLARA: Maybe I should try a coffee instead of a tea.
KARL: A coffin? [group laughs] I tell you, at the moment you think you are
alive, you step into the coffin and you are dead. Any idea that you are alive
makes you dead. So that idea of being alive, of being born, is a "coffin" idea.
This is right away your funeral. Any idea that you are alive is a suicide. You
become an object. You're stepping out of that absolute existence into that
relative idea of "I am alive." So this is all a coffin. All the inmates are corpses.
AIKO: Papaji said "graveyard."
KARL: Graveyard, yeah, shadowland of corpses, those images.
LOUISE: From shadowland to graceland.
KARL: It's graceland, so it's empty.

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LOUISE: Crazy.
KARL: That's what Jesus said. "Let the dead bury the dead." Don't worry. By
the idea that you are incarnated, that you've been born, you're killing yourself.
So being reborn is seeing that what you are was never born. This is a rebirth of
what you are.
LOUISE: It's a recall.
KARL: Total Recall. Schwarzenegger has to come? No, leave the Governor in
California. [group laughs]
This being reborn is like a Krishna idea. Even Ramana talked about it. The
rebirth of your absolute nature is seeing that what you are was never born. Any
idea you create about yourself, any way you define yourself, is killing yourself.
So any moment you're not that Absolute—that absolute "not-knowing" what you
are and what you are not—any moment you give yourself an identity of
whatever kind of definition, it's suicide. Hello, suicide! Hello, corpse! Aw, it's
not so bad. [group laughs]
LIZ: You give us no hope, Karl.
KARL: Hope? No hope. But that's nothing new.
LOUISE: [laughing] Not so bad. Not so good either!
KARL: It's neither good nor bad, that's the good thing about it.
LIZ: No divine love, no acceptance, no reincarnation. There's nothing.
KARL: No way out.
THERESE: No better life, no relaxation.
MONIKA: No enlightenment.
THERESE: No improvement.
KARL: I would say that you cannot get more enlightened than you already are.
MONIKA: Oh dear!
KARL :You always want to make more.
MONIKA: No, better!
KARL: Better enlightenment. [group laughs] No, it only comes down to this
very mind, to this idea of ownership. If this is not there, no one cares. There's a
concernlessness. But at the moment you identify with whatever, "my" comes.
This "my" comes out of being born, of being separated. You create a "my

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existence." Whatever you do then is wanting to improve that existence which is
yours. That's the nature of it.
But whatever you can improve is dead. It's empty. It's all second-hand. Clothes.
Still a headache?
LOUISE: Right now, it's okay. At this very moment, it's okay.
KARL: At this very moment, it's gone. Banishment right away.
LOUISE: Punishment?
KARL: Punishment of controlling. Headache.
LOUISE: Are you working on it again now, hey?
KARL: Am I working on it? [group laughs]
MONIKA: He would send it back.
KARL: No, I have a big compassion for this. Normally, really, I don't do
anything. But that is something really hard.
No one can take it. If there is one who doesn't want anything from you, nothing
to give, nothing to change, nothing to do, it's really hard for a person to stay in
that. Because this is the worst thing a person can go through. There is no one
who wants anything from it. You don't have to change, you don't have to
improve, you don't have to do anything—this is like it's killing you. It's killing
the idea of "you who has to do something." You really resist that, because this
takes out all your ideas of being alive, being a person who has to improve. There
is no reaction to you. It doesn't even know you.
"Who is this guy anyway? He doesn't speak to me. Speak to me!" "No. I don't
even know you." "Acknowledge me! Tell me that I am mature. Tell me that I am
maybe a failure, whatever, but talk to me. Tell me something has to change with
me, because if I can change, I am still alive. But you talk to me as if I am
already dead." "Yes, you are!"
LOUISE: Yeah, it feels like that. This creation of that hammering thing, it draws
the attention so I can feel it in the body-mind system. You know, it's like a print.
Otherwise, maybe I wouldn't feel it. It's like a trick, with a sense of
manipulation.
KARL: What?
LOUISE: [laughing] Every time I think I am on it—da dun da dun da dun da
dun!—I fall off that horse. A horse with no saddle or nothing gallops off back to
the desert!

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KARL: The horse simply disappears from under you. My goodness, you are a
flying carpet. You cannot land anywhere. Pad for existence.
LOUISE: A pet?
KARL: A pet of existence. Petal. Hmm.

Absolute control is being that controllessness

JAMES: Karl, going back to what you were talking about in the beginning,
about the seeing. In that seeing, the "I" and the universe disappear, right?
KARL: There is only That which is existence itself, because when you are That
which is seeing, then you are whatever is—there is no separation. When you are
That which is the experiencer, you are That which is experiencing and what is
experience, as you are that existence absolute.
So you are That which is the experiencer, but you are not the experiencer. You
are That which is the person, but you are not the person. You are That which is
the body, but you are not the body. So if you are That which is, then you are
what is the experiencer, that experiencing, and what is experienced—in the
presence of that and in the absence too. Then there is no difference. In the
presence of what is world, or in the absence of the world, only That which is, is.
And That has no idea of being That or not. So even to say you are That which is
seeing, you are not seeing, you are That which is seeing. And by being That
which is seeing, you are what is seer and what is the whole world. Because then
whatever is, is Heart. As you are That which is the world, you don't know the
world anymore, because whatever is, is what you are. So in that moment, you
are not the seer, not the seeing, nor the seen, as you are That which is. In the
presence and in the absence. It makes no difference any more.
In order to exist, the experiencer needs the presence of experiencing and
something to experience. But That which is the experiencer doesn't need the
presence of an experiencer experiencing blah blah blah. This is absolutely
independent of any circumstance. All the circumstances need circumstances, the
experiencer needs a circumstance of experiencing, but That which is the
experiencer doesn't need anything.
It's too complicated, huh?
JAMES: Yeah, I pretty much lost it.
KARL: It's very easy, actually. It's easy to be it, but not to understand.
JAMES: Impossible to understand.

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KARL: But "impossible" is another word of the mind. That which is absolute
spirit has no limit of understanding.
JAMES: Right.
KARL: At that understanding of that unlimited spirit or intelligence, there is no
"me" anymore. The "me" can only live when there are limits to understanding,
as the mind can only be there when there is a limit of mind. In that unlimited
intelligence or spirit, there is no mind anymore.
This is like what she was saying, a total "no-mind." Because in that absolute,
unlimited intelligence or spirit, there was never any mind. Mind is simply like
one aspect of understanding, of that absolute understanding. Mind simply means
limitation, a limit of understanding. But there was never any limit of
understanding, as that "limit" is only an aspect of experiencing a limit. That limit
was never there, except as an appearance of a limitation in That which is
unlimited, which is prior.
Taming the bull, controlling the mind, is not by any control, it's by simply being
what you are. And when you are what you are, which is existence itself, there
never was, and will never be, any mind. Then the mind is simply only an image,
like a dream image or shape, and it is never there. But not by any control, of the
mind controlling the mind, of needing a "no-mind" blah blah blah—the absolute
control is being that controllessness, being That which is existence itself, which
has no second. In That there is no control possible.
There is only control in the idea of "a second self." But by seeing the second self
only as an idea, an image, a phantom—what to control? That phantom you
cannot control anyway. Anna, everything okay?
ANNA: Yeah, in a sense. but I'm pretty dull today so—
KARL: Oh la. Today's a Shiva day. Very dull.
ANNA: It's just like that.
KARL: No moon. Shiva moon today.
LIZ: Shiva moon? Doesn't exist!
MR. IYER: New moon.
KARL: Or you can call it "no moon." Next month is Mahashivaratri [Night of
Shiva]. The big one.
LIZ: Will you be here for that?
KARL: No, I just fly out that day. I'd rather not be here because it will be quite
crowded. Is maha every twelve years?

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MR. IYER: Every year.
KARL: Every year. Every twelve months.
MR. IYER: Every month there is a Shivaratri, but that particular month,
Shivaratri is celebrated.
KARL: Yeah, it's a maha. Every twelve months, the twelfth moon or the
thirteenth moon. Then many coming.
MR. IYER: But not from outside. Usually from the nearby villages. Not that
much crowd.
KARL: Not so many as Deepam [Festival of Lights].
MR. IYER: No.
KARL: But still enough, I think.
THERESE: Last year I was in Varanasi for Shivaratri. There were processions
of sadhus and elephants and everything.
KARL: Big celebration.
LIZ: That's special.
KARL: So what to do? I remember three years ago, when Yogi Ramsuratkumar
died. Three or four years ago?
FRANCESCO: Three.
KARL: Three. They unplugged the machines.
THERESE: On Shivaratri day?
KARL: Yeah.
MONIKA: Oh, really?
KARL: To make it really auspicious. That's a total teaching of helplessness.
Yogi Ramsuratkumar, the biggest siddhi master in India, caught hanging on the
machines and unplugged on that auspicious day. Could not decide anything, and
he didn't care, I tell you.
FRANCESCO: Well, what kind of day you like?
KARL: Me? Well, whenever you like.
FRANCESCO: Tomorrow? [group laughs]
KARL: If you can find the plug.

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FRANCESCO: You don't believe, but it can be possible. Everything can change.
Still too much. Still. Oh my God.
KARL: But coming back to that helplessness, it's really like a big teaching, an
absolute teaching. Being the biggest master around and lying there, being totally
dependent on machines, and then the disciples decide when to pull the plug and
make it really auspicious. That concernlessness, lying there, even the arm was
lifted by a string. Because there was a glass house all around, everyone could go
visit him. Nice scene, huh?
FRANCESCO: I went.
KARL: It was great! I liked it.
FRANCESCO: It was good energy.
KARL: Yeah, but to see that! Then when he went, the corpse was sitting in the
chair and the whole room was full of that blueness, totally blue energy, that
cosmic energy. Whew! It was great. The elephant was released out of that
corpse.
MRS. ANGELINA: Karl, this apperception, is it there in spite of my seeing or
not?
KARL: Do you mean, it's in spite of the action or non-action of seeing?
MRS. ANGELINA: Yes.
KARL: But in the absence of whatever can be perceived, there is simply what
you may call "blankness," or the total absence of any dream. But you are still the
absolute dreamer. And then waking up to awareness, the dream starts with the
relative dreamer. The absolute dreamer is always that apperception, wherein the
perceiver appears. With the perceiver comes perceiving and what can be
perceived, "I am so-and-so." So that apperception, That which is Self itself is,
with and without perception or perceiving, what it is. But the perceiver needs to
perceive.
MRS. ANGELINA: So when you are saying "just see"—?
KARL: When there is seeing, just see, but without being what is the seer.
MRS. ANGELINA: Okay.
KARL: Just see. The seer is only there when the seer is defining what he is
seeing. So the definer, as the seer, defines what is separate, what is seen.
MRS. ANGELINA: The seen is always there?

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KARL: Not always. You cannot say always. That absolute seer, That which is
prior to the relative seer, has no coming and going. But that separate seer, which
is there when there is seeing and something seen, is temporary. So That which is
prior to the relative seer, wherein that seer seeing what is seen appears, is what
you call "apperception."
You may say, here, now, is what you are, perceiving what can be perceived, and
what is part of that perceiving, what is the relative perceiver, you are not. You
are no different from that, but that is already an imagination—that imagination
of the seer seeing what is seen, or what can never be imagined. All that
imagining is a dream-like imagination of Self-realization you cannot avoid.
Be That which is prior to what can be seen. That's what Meister Eckhart called
"the eye of God." What the eye of God is seeing is no different from That which
is God, but it's not what is God. So even the seeing is not what is God. You
cannot define it. But it comes close to that awareness, or canvas state, which is
not in time or no-time. Therein all the ideas appear, but itself is never moving.
It's like a pointer to That, but it's actually not it. It's even beyond that canvas, or
prior to that canvas, by being That which is the canvas but neither the canvas nor
what is shown on it. Question?
A German WOMAN: Ich verstehe leider kein Wort. Ich kann kein Englisch.
KARL: Ah, sounds good. She's in the best position one can be in. She doesn't
understand English. [group laughs]
LIZ: She'll get it better than us.
KARL: I tell you, many would like to be in her position, out of the fire. Ya,
genieβest einfach. Just enjoy it. Ich weiβ niemals was ich sage. Even I don't
know what I say. But this is really paradise, if you don't know what you say. It
absolutely doesn't matter. This total being absolutely irrelevant. I'm totally
Irrer—crazy. Absolutely crazy.
LIZ: But I enjoy every minute of it.
MONIKA: There must be merit. Otherwise, we wouldn't do it.
KARL: If That which is the Self wants to be reminded by whatever is the Self
and places then the Self in front of that Self to be reminded, only to see it doesn't
even have to be reminded to be the Self—if that is merit—whew—sounds good.
CHARLES: Maybe you could do a whole satsang in German one day, so all we
non-German speakers could benefit. [group laughs] Just the Germans would
suffer.
KARL: And next day in Japanese.

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CHARLES: Zulu!
MONIKA: Swahili!
THERESE: Gibberish.
KARL: I speak all the time in gibberish. Babble-lonian. Out of Babble-lonia.
THERESE: Or monkey talk. Ee-ee-oo-oo-ah-ah!
KARL: Oh, you will sit here! [group laughs]
THERESE: I saw this movie, Greystoke: The Legend of Tarzan, and afterwards
I spoke monkey. I loved it. You don't think anymore. You just express—ah ah
oo oo!
KARL: Oh, they are quite horny, I tell you.
CHARLES: Don't try that here with us. They can understand!
KARL: Thérèse, did you hear? Don't do it in Tiruvannamalai, they might
understand you!
THERESE: Yeah, where I live, the roof is quite full of monkeys and I watch
them and it's like uh-oh!
KARL: Better speak Hebrew. Oy yoy! Question? You didn't collect some in the
last days? You don't come with a collection of questions for me?
LIZ: She knows better.
KARL: She leaves them at home where they are safe. [group laughs]

There is no moment without That which you are

MR. IYER: Can you tell something about your view about the mystical powers
exhibited by the yogis, for example, Yogi Ramsuratkumar? He has cured many
people's health problems.
KARL: I would say they blamed him for that, but it was not him.
MR. IYER: Pardon?
KARL: You may say, there would be health, but it was not because of Yogi. It's
simply like a coincidence. The healing comes out of the same source as the
disease, and not from Yogi. He never gave anything, and he was always pointing
to that. If you call him "Godchild," it's simply his being That which is the
absolute Source of the universe. But not by that does anything happen.

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That absolute siddhi—that you are what is that absolute Source, what is
acceptance itself, or what is grace itself—is the Source of whatever. It is the
Source of both sickness and health. By that, everything comes, but you cannot
say what—nothing special comes out of it. You have to take that you are the
Source of war and peace, of whatever ugliness and beauty—whatever—you are
the Source of that.
And Yogi Ramsuratkumar was a pointer to that, to be that helplessness which is
the absolute Source of whatever you can imagine. But by that, there is no special
healing or anything. It even makes sickness, I tell you.
MR. IYER: You don't come across these kinds of events with Ramana or
Nisargatta Maharaj. Only in the case of Yogi, you come across these kinds of
events.
KARL: I didn't read Yogi's books or what he said. I just look into That which he
is or was or represented. And for me, when I met him and saw him, he
represented that concernlessness or ruthlessness of existence. He didn't represent
whatever was written, about a beggar or siddhi master or I don't know.
MR. IYER: Here is one thing. My brother was attending him every evening
some ten, fifteen years back. So one evening, he said, "Swami, I won't be here
for a few days because I need an operation on the throat." Yogi asked about the
problem, and my brother explained. Then Yogi didn't say anything. He just
called him and he blessed him. Next day, he went for the operation. Before the
operation, they did the preliminary check-up, but then they found there was not
even a trace of the need for the operation. So they sent him home.
KARL: Magic.
MR. IYER: He came all the way from Pondicherry right away to see Bhagavan
and tell him what happened in the hospital. He said, "I know everything. You go
home, take this, you come please tomorrow."
KARL: They said the same thing about Jesus and others.
MR. IYER: Yeah. In the case of Jesus, he did a lot of healing.
KARL: But still, the one who heals—that, no.
MR. IYER: That's what I'm not able to understand.
KARL: But the final healing is giving you the total knowledge of what you are,
by giving you the knowledge of being That, unborn, never dying—and not
healing some body. Because that healing, that pointing to the nature of that
Heart that you are, that is the absolute healing. The healing of the body is maybe

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a side-effect, or whatever, but whoever's body was healed is dead now. It's a
temporary adjustment.
All these wonders and miracles are temporary too, simply relative, like an
amazing show, like David Copperfield, who can make a whole plane disappear,
or Sai Baba, who can produce a linga. What to do? Doesn't matter. Both mean
nothing. Both are the magic of consciousness that can do everything. It can
make a mountain appear and disappear. It can make the whole universe appear
and disappear.
What is more magical? You are the total magician. You let the whole universe
appear by simply taking it as real. You are creating everything simply by
looking at it.
A WOMAN: Is this leela or maya?
KARL: Maya? Hugo? He is a big guru here, a German guru. [group laughs]
THERESE: Hey, who comes and goes? Hugo.
KARL: Hugo Mayer. Nice name. "Who goes? Maya." So maya comes and goes.
BERTA: What about Karl? [group laughs] Renz!
KARL: I rent and rend.
MR. IYER: Another thing. I heard there are some good spirits and bad spirits
possessing humans and controlling their activities. Even that kind of thing you
don't come across with Ramana or Nisargadatta, but in the case of some yogis,
sometimes you come across this. How to take it? Is there a possibility of
controlling one by other beings? Is there such a thing?
KARL: If you are in the idea that you are born, that you are a being at all and
there are other beings, you are in the ghost shadowland, and you will be
controlled by other spirits. As you want to control their spirits, you are
controlled by them. As long as there is a second "me," as long as there is a "me"
at all as a ghost, you are surrounded by enemies, any ghosts. You are full of
ghosts, you create six billion ghosts simply by taking that first ghost "me" as
real. So in that spirit, then, there are good and bad spirits for you as a spirit
yourself. As long as you are that ghost, surrounded by other ghosts, there are
good and bad ghosts, like good and bad people. There's simply different realms
of material, personal, spirit realms, dimensions. All is there in that dream.
It all comes with the first "I"-thought. With the first ghost, you create all the
other ghosts. You are surrounded by good and bad ghosts, because you have to
control.

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But seeing that first "I"-thought as a ghost, a phantom, you are prior to that,
absolutely prior, in the total absence of any idea of what you are and what you
are not. Then there is no ghost, no world, nothing anymore, only That is what is.
The rest are fleeting shadows or images coming as a dream, and even the
dreamer, as "me," is a dream-like figure who comes and goes.
But the moment you take that first dreamer as real, the dream is real too. And in
this dream, there are spirits, ghosts, good and bad boys, whatever. So it all
depends on the first root of "me."
When a yogi tells you that there are good and bad spirits, and you can be
occupied by this, he himself is still a ghost. He can only talk out of what he
knows. Whatever he knows, then, in that spirit—ghost, magician, sorcerer blah
blah blah—he becomes. Maybe he can control energy, maybe he becomes a big
master of whatever. But it's still—
MARY: Projection.
KARL: Projection, and it's like one shadow controlling another shadow. That's
all.
SOFIA: But what about Ramana who appeared to Papaji and told him—
KARL: Why not? Still there. It's not a ghost appearing to another ghost, it's
simply one image appearing to another image, like giving some hint. Like the
mountain. Is there a mountain? Sofia, is there a mountain? One sees a mountain,
and another sees pure light. What's the difference?
So there is Ramana, there is light taking the image of Ramana, as a symbol, like
a hint, like the mountain being a total pointer, an absolute pointer to That which
is prior to the mountain. So if the whole existence, That which is existence itself,
takes that mountain as being a total pointer to That which is existence, so what?
When Ramana as an image is taken as a symbol for Papaji in that appearance, so
what? As that image was an aspect, it never was alive, so it cannot go. Even
here, now, Ramana is still alive as images.
FRANCESCO: Yeah, but in that crisis, Ramana appeared in front of Papaji and
told him to go to Tiruvannamalai and see Ramana, that that was for him.
KARL: Yeah, so what? Consciousness cannot do that?
FRANCESCO: It helped him, because he had travelled around India for many
years looking for a guru and he didn't find one.
KARL: He was always dancing with Krishna.
FRANCESCO: Yes, but that is different.

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KARL: What different?
FRANCESCO: Well, Ramana appeared right in front of him and told him to go
to Tiruvannamalai.
KARL: And Ramana asked him where is Krishna now.
FRANCESCO: Yes, but when Papaji actually went to Tiruvannamalai and was
in front of Ramana, Papaji said that Ramana looked in his eyes and gave him the
possibility to understand what he is.
KARL: I was not there.
FRANCESCO: Me neither. But I hope.
KARL: I hope one day it will happen for you.
FRANCESCO: That's what I come here for. Every day!
MARY: Hint, hint!
FRANCESCO: Look in my eyes! [group laughs]
KARL: In spite of what you just said, in spite of whatever Ramana figure, in
spite of the mountain or whatever you imagine, you are. I can only point again.
In spite of your understanding that "why," you are, not because. Afterwards,
there will be not more understanding. There is maybe some controlling of some
understanding of some circumstances, but it cannot control That which is you, as
That which is understanding. You cannot add something to that absolute
understanding that you are, by any relative understanding, of why Ramana
appeared to who, of whatever tralala.
FRANCESCO: Yeah, but it's only nice. If I were in Italy, and Ramana was
outside the door and he said to me, "Oh, Francesco, how are you?" It would be
nice, you know. It's only like "have another coffee."
KARL: If it would be, then you wouldn't talk about it. I don't say there's
anything wrong or right with it, I just say, it's nothing special to have some
visions of someone.
SOFIA: So, if you dream about the master, or have some vision of the master, or
the master is there, it's exactly the same?
KARL: Again and again, I can only tell you, there is no moment, there is no
thing, without That which you are. And That is the master himself. You are That
which is the master. That master you can experience is simply a reflection of it
only. So those images you call your master are only images. But that master you
are, which is always there in whatever given moment or circumstance—without
that, what is the master? There would not be even a circumstance, and no

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Ramana appearance, and no dream of any one master, and all this. So that
master, that grace that is what you are, is always there without any coming and
going.
Any master of images coming and going is maybe like a nice extra or
something, but it cannot add something to what you are. If you enjoy it, okay.
But if you make it special and make it my experience of a master, and "I'm
specially chosen because the master comes to me at night," and then you take it
personally, then you are in the shithole again.
MARY: It's false.
KARL: False or not. You simply take something personally. Like the experience
of enlightenment. The moment you take it personally, you run around and want
to sell it. "My experience!" What is that? But that's what happens.
BERTA: We are talking about That which you are established in.
KARL: No, I'm not talking about anything. Forget it!
BERTA: You are talking about something that is impossible to talk about.
KARL: Yeah, and I say I am talking about what I cannot talk about.
BERTA: That's what all the masters do. So that's another word for "master."
KARL: It's your problem if you call me "master." I don't know any master.
BERTA: But that's what masters do. They talk about what cannot be said.
KARL: Yeah, I'm a talk master. [group laughs]
THERESE: A head master.
MARY: No head!
KARL: I'm the revenge of Germany on Holland! [group laughs]
MONIKA: No, the revenge of the Dutch on the Germans! Other way around.
[more group laughter]
MARY: Someone gave a beautiful image the other day. They said that Ramana
Maharshi and Arunachala were one. Arunachala is the potential, totality,
electricity, and Ramana is the light bulb, kinetic, the shining, the radiance. And
that they are one and the same. I thought that was good. It's just an image.
KARL: Nice image. I would say, there's a stable light and a running light. That's
all. Both are light. Like, Mount Kailas is the home of Shiva, and this is Shiva
himself.

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That absolute "no way out" is peace, and the rest is
trying to escape
A French WOMAN: About the creation, the sense you use it—I create the world
by using the senses?
KARL: No, you are not creating something. You cannot create what is already
there.
WOMAN: Yeah, but you say we are the creator.
KARL: But the creator is part of the creation. The idea of God as "the Creator"
is part of creation. That Creator God is part of the manifestation of Self. But
there is nothing created, so there is no one who creates anything by giving his
attention or seeing something. There is only Self, only Heart, and there is no
creator and no creation. So you can never create anything by your giving
attention to something.
WOMAN: Before you said, by looking, you create, you make this world real.
KARL: No, by taking that creator as real, there becomes a creator and some
creation. But actually, it's all Self, and Self is infinite and never coming and
going. In becoming that creator, as "me," by taking that creator as real, you are
separate from what you are already. You take an image, a form, as real, but even
that "Creator God" is an image, simply an idea. You're still stepping out of that
Godlessness you are, out of that paradise of that not knowing, into some idea.
Out of that "creator" idea, you create images and forms. So you become that
formless consciousness as a creator, creating all kinds of "in-form-ation." But
already that is a dream. It's fake. It's false. So you never created anything, as
there was never any creator nor any creation. All that is, is Heart or Self. And in
That, there is nothing ever coming or going. So there is no creating, there is not
even appearance and disappearance. What to do with that?
WOMAN: Nothing.
KARL: Then you see that whatever comes out of that dreamer, out of that idea
of an image of a dreamer who wakes up in the morning, is simply part of the
absolute dream, which is absolutely there without any coming and going. As
there is no difference between That which is the absolute dreamer and the
absolute realization, there is no coming and going in it. Nothing happens.
Nothing can ever disappear, as nothing ever appeared. Nothing is ever created,
so there is nothing that can go.
There is not even the illusion of coming and going. Even that illusion is infinite.
Nothing is by you.

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WOMAN: When I say it, the "me" is not a small me.
KARL: Even the big me. The giant me. [both laugh] No, That which is Self
never created anything. There is no such thing as creation or creator in whatever
is existence. There is only that absolute existence with no coming and going.
Nothing is ever created by anyone, not even by That which is the Creator. All
this is the dream-like realization, and the dream is as solid as it can be, as a
manifestation or realization of that absolute existence. There's nothing to see or
understand. Simply be That which is never coming, never going, ever unborn,
which can never be created or create anything.
[Silence.]
MONIKA: I thought it was all my fault! [group laughs]
KARL: But even that was not your fault, that you thought everything was your
fault. But that is a total pointer only. And that is peace. The rest is fiction. The
rest is, again, trying to understand and control what is existence.
That existence, that mystical existence, the mystery of absolute existence, you
can never reveal as it is. You have to be it. By being it, there is no knowing of it
and no not knowing. There is simply That which you are as what is. And never
in That is anything created or coming or going. So nothing ever happened to
That which you are. So all those happenings, dream-like ideas coming and
going, cannot touch what you are. And only that is peace itself. The rest is
fiction!
A British MAN: How do we realize that peace, then?
KARL: That peace is ever-realized and doesn't need your realization of it.
MAN: How do I realize that that is the case?
KARL: There is no "how" to it. It will never be in time. It will never be in any
idea. It will never be owned by anyone. So that nakedness of existence cannot be
owned by anyone. You have to absolutely be it. You have to be that nakedness,
which is an absolute absence of any idea of what you are and what you are not.
Even the absence of the absence, you are, which is the omnipresence of That
which is existence itself, and which has no experience of that presence.
MAN: You seem to be giving me an objective, in a sense, to be what I am, to be
existence prior to phenomena.
KARL: Whatever you can leave, you cannot be. To exist, you cannot leave. So
you cannot not be what you are, but whatever can leave you, you are not.

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Whatever ideas come and go, they are simply concepts. They may leave you. So
you may believe in them or not, but they will leave you anyway. Whatever you
"be-leave" in, will leave you.
In order for you to believe or not believe, you have to exist prior to both. And
That which is prior to a belief system of being and non-being, you cannot reach.
But in spite of knowing or not knowing that, you are that absolute knowledge,
never because of any relative more or less knowing. So as I tell, you cannot not
be what you are, as you never lost yourself.
MAN: But you see, I'm so habitually—I feel I have to have a technique. It's just
so ingrained. I can't escape this feeling that I need to know how to do it.
KARL: Good. You can do techniques. Why not? I have nothing against it.
MAN: But what you seem to be saying is that I don't need any technique.
KARL: No, That which you are doesn't need any technique. And what you are
not needs all the techniques just to stay alive. [group laughs]
You cannot mix it. That which you are never needed any technique, but the false
"me" needs all the techniques just to survive. So whatever the false is doing,
whatever technique, is keeping the false alive. That false "creator" idea, "I am,"
consciousness, does everything, whatever tactic, to get out of that tick-tack. But
by trying everything to get out of that tick-tack, it's fixing that tick-tack to time.
Whatever you do to get out of time makes sure that you are in time. And as a
person, as a "me," you have to make time real. Otherwise, there would be no
"me" anymore.
MAN: Yes.
KARL: So whatever you do, it's a survival system.
MAN: Well, I do understand you, but it hasn't clicked.
KARL: No, it will never click. That's a click. Never ever. You are never-never!
But you will never, ever hear that click. Because when that click is there, there is
no one to hear it.
MAN: Is it like shooting yourself? You never hear the bang.
KARL: Something like this. You're already dead before you hear the bang.
[group laughs]
Sounds good. It will always be too fast or too slow for what you are. So if I tell
you, you cannot not do sadhana, but in spite of the sadhana, there is That which
you are. But that sadhana is keeping what does the sadhana alive.

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A MAN: Why not?
KARL: Yeah, why not? I just point out that you cannot by ending sadhana
become what you are, just as you cannot become by sadhana what you are. Both
are okay; both are irrelevant.
That's the beauty, even of sadhana. You do it, but no one is doing it. It's simply
Self-entertainment, all the way. But this is meditation! This is freedom, even in
meditation.
There is meditation only then when there is not expectation of results. Without
intention, there is no person anymore. So when there is meditation, already there
is absolute cosmic consciousness, as That which is consciousness meditating
about That which is Self.
But with intention, when there is action with intention, it makes you a person.
That intention keeps your "me" alive, because there's an advantage idea,
meditating to get something out of it—more personal freedom, peace, whatever
you can name. There's nothing wrong or right with it. I'm simply pointing out
the functioning of it, of that experience of "me" [holds up thumb, index, and
middle fingers].
The function of "me" is having an intention to keep itself alive. And then comes
"I am," simply meditation without intention [holds up thumb and index finger].
And prior to the "I am" is "I," awareness [holds up thumb], and prior to that is
Heart [fist]. Heart never needs "I," "I am," and "me," but all of these appear in
That which is Heart. So nothing is ever created because Heart is the first and the
last.
So in every realm, in every dimension, in that whatever world, time, it all needs
intention, because there's only time when there's intention. There's only "me"
when there's intention. So whatever you do is keeping that alive. It's a survival
system of that [thumb, index, and middle fingers]. When there is no intention,
there is the formless "I am" [thumb and index finger], meditating. By no
intention, it keeps the "I am" alive. And then prior to that is the pure
consciousness as "I" [thumb], simply awareness. And awareness keeps
awareness alive, simply like automatic.
But prior to that is That which is awareness and That which is "I am"-ness and
That which is "I am so"-ness. This [shows fingers and then closes them back
into fist again and again] is always That which is Heart [fist] and this [shows
fingers and then closes them back into fist again and again] is the realization of
this [fist], and there is no difference.
You cannot create any need for That [fist] which never needed "I" [thumb] or
this [thumb and index finger] or this [thumb, index, and middle fingers]. But this

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[thumb, index, and middle fingers] needs intention, this [thumb and index
finger] needs no intention, and this [thumb] needs being the Source of no
intention and intention. So that timelessness is creating time and non-time. But
timelessness already needs That which is timelessness, as what is non-time
needs That which is non-time and what is time needs That which is time. And
That is Heart. Very simple! So be That, as you cannot not be That.
British MAN: Yes. The way to be it, is to be it.
KARL: There is no other way.
LIZ: Very simple!
An Irish MAN: This "no intention" keeps "I am" alive? This happens very
naturally. There is no effort in it.
KARL: Yeah, but "no effort" needs no effort to be no effort.
MAN: I don't deny that.
KARL: Yeah, but it's still a definition, "no effort."
MAN: But I was listening to what you were saying—"no intention" keeps "I
am" alive.
KARL: But the "no intention" is only because there is intention of the "I am so-
and-so." Otherwise, you would not define it. There's only non-time because
there is time. There is only "no intention" because there is intention.
MAN: No question, no question.
KARL: I'm just pointing to it. It's like a survival system because there are
polarities that keep both alive. Emptiness is only there because fullness is. So
fullness is empty, and emptiness is full. Form is non-form, and non-form is
form. The survival of "non-form" is to be non-form. The survival of "form" is to
be form. The survival of "I" is to be I. But for this [fist], there is no survival.
MAN: But it feels that there is no one.
KARL: There was never one. But there is still one. Even to say, "There is no
one," there is still one. Who is experiencing that "no one"? [laughs] Nice trick.
Nice bush and no bush. The no-bush trick. A notebook trick. A laptop.
CHARLES: Can you now not answer the no-question?
KARL: [laughing] That will be the final trick. You have to see even the
dependency of "no-dependency."
Irish MAN: [laughing] What does that mean?

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KARL: An idea of "no dependency" needs no dependency. So it's depending on
no dependency.
MAN But there is no idea of "no dependency."
KARL: But you just talked about it.
MAN: I listened to you! [group laughs]
KARL: But even the "I am" is depending on the I am. "I" is depending on I.
MARY: What about "is"?
KARL: What "is"?
MARY: Just "is."
KARL: "Is" is depending on is.
MARY: "Is" is better than "I am."
KARL: Better? [group laughs] You cannot get out of the dependency of
existence. This is a "no way out" that you are depending on what you are. You
cannot escape existence as you are That which is existence.
So there is an absolute dependency as you cannot escape what you are. This is
the absolute no way out. A bit more or less dependency, who cares? That's the
point. There is dependency in the "I," there is dependency in the "I am," and so
on, all depending on the absolute dependency that you are That. So that absolute
"no way out" is peace, and the rest is trying to escape.
MRS. ANGELINA: Not possible.
KARL: Whatever attempt you make to find an exit out of what is, is suicide, and
then you complain that life is a misery. Any moment you want to escape what is,
you want to escape what you are, and then you suffer because of that. That is the
beginning of suffering, stepping out of acceptance of being That which is
existence. You step into some objective life, and then you want to escape that
objective life. But even that you cannot escape, as even that is an experience of
what you are.
You cannot not experience what you are. You cannot not realize what you are,
so there will never be any escape in any sense. Hallelujah! Bye-bye. Finally,
amen. Thank you, thank you. I'm always amazed that someone listens to me.
Total amazement. [group laughs]

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January 22, 2004: You are That which is
home; or, the end of all ends

"Disappearing" the teacher

KARL: Windy, a bit. Kommt die Katze (the cat's coming) today.
GEORG: Hier kommt die Katze (here comes the cat)! Kamikaze!
MONIKA: Comfy cats, comedy cats. Sie kommen wie Kätze (they come like
cats).
THERESE: Kamikaze! Meow!
[Karl is not usually surrounded by any of the indications of respect that
customarily accompany spiritual teachers in India, such as garlands of flowers
and incense. There is only a simple chair set at the front of the room for him to
sit in when he arrives. But on this day, someone has placed two flowers on the
bamboo beam behind and above Karl's chair and two flowers on the arms of the
chair.]
KARL: Here and here— What?
FRANCESCO: [pointing to Monika] She did it.
KARL: Oy, my, my—
GEORG: Flower power.
KARL: Flower power! Back to the sixties.
GEORG: California, yes.
MONIKA: That's from Holland, the flower Bauer (farmer).
THERESE: I have good news. Today is a confusion day.
MONIKA: That's good news?
SOFIA: Only today?
THERESE: Even more today. This Indian man gave me a ride from Mountain
View, and I said to him, "Oh, I am a bit late today," and he said, "Oh, don't
worry, today is a confusion day, because of the astrology." So even if you have
plans, they will be all confused. I said, "That Karl is going to like—confusion
day!" [group laughs]

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KARL: So you get an infusion from confusion. Okay. Confusion again. What to
do?
KRISTOPH: Mind is confusion.
KARL: Then there would be some mind. To give it another name doesn't make a
difference. First, you have to find mind, and then you call it something. So that's
confusion, what you cannot find?
KRISTOPH: Just a play with words.
KARL: That's what I said.
THERESE: Hey, Karl, it's getting dangerous. You are getting flowers around
you. Respect is coming!
KARL: Yeah, I have to watch out.
THERESE: Respect, authority.
KARL: I did something wrong, I think. [group laughs] Something went wrong
here. [looks around at the flowers that mark four corners of a square around
him] Four.
GEORG: Framing you.
KARL: Framing. Everyone wants to frame me, for sure! [group laughs] It's
really dangerous. The "divine love" frame.
JAMES: The reason they want to frame you, Karl, is because they know it's all
your fault.
KARL: Okay, crossed! Nail me. Frame me. It's the same.
JAMES: I didn't bring any nails.
KARL: No? You didn't bring any questions?
JAMES: I've got a question, for entertainment. From the point of view or
perspective of Self-realization, it would seem that an individual who is Self-
realized wouldn't be critical of the manifestation, and in particular, of other
teachers.
KARL: Who says so?
JAMES: Well it's just an idea, but every teacher that I have known criticizes
other teachers.
KARL: Yeah, that has to be.
JAMES: Can you explain that. Why does that have to be?

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KARL: Because that Shiva aspect has to destroy all, even himself as a teacher.
This is teaching to destroy all the teaching and teachers and whatever can be
said. This is not criticism or being cynical; it is simply that nothing can be left
over. No teacher, no teaching, no disciple. That is the Shiva aspect of
destruction.
So this is not a critical point of view. It is simply that you take everything that
can be taken away. All the teachers, even, because you point out, "Look they
cannot help you. There is no one who has it more. No one has that nectar to give
you."
JAMES: Yeah, I mean, it sounds good to criticize other teachers.
KARL: It's not criticizing anything. It's destroying them—in front of you.
JAMES: I mean it's fine to be criticizing other teachers and then at the same
time criticize oneself. But they just criticize other teachers, some of them just
criticize other teachers.
KARL: Some. Then they have to go one step further. Because they have to
"disappear" the teacher in front of you too. So they have to destroy the whole
world and then themselves in front of you. But maybe that comes next then.
Who knows? Why do you question it?
JAMES: I see it brings up another thing and that is, some people they take a
teacher or guru and they place them on this pedestal you know that's way, way,
way up there.
KARL: Then they think they are safe or what?
JAMES: It's projection, right?
KARL: Just fun. No danger.
LOUISE: Is there anything besides entertainment in that?
KARL: Entertainment.
LOUISE: Is that all—entertainment?
KARL: Yeah, besides entertainment, there is entertainment.
LOUISE: Besides that?
KARL: There is entertainment.
LOUISE: Keep on going, keep on going.

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[Karl sits silently for a moment. All eyes are upon him. Suddenly, one of the
flowers falls from the bamboo beam above Karl's head and lands on the floor
with a small bounce. Several people exclaim "Ah!"]
KARL: See, and then it comes down. [group laughs]
LOUISE: Then you have a hangover.
KARL: From what?
LOUISE: From too much entertainment?
KARL: Of whom? Entertainment is the absence of one who gets entertained or
not entertained. Then there's only entertainment and there is no hangover. But as
you see it, as a personal entertainment, there is always a hangover afterward,
because you make a difference between entertainment and something else. But if
there is nothing but entertainment, there is no one who is entertained anymore.
There is no hangover from that. Only when there is a polarity of entertainment
and non-entertainment, happiness and unhappiness, then you are getting a
hangover of that bliss, of nectar, whatever, of entertainment, of divine,
blissful—
LOUISE: Infinite entertainment!
KARL: Okay. But maybe there's not even entertainment.
LOUISE: Oh!
[Suddenly, from the beam above Karl's head, the second flower falls to the floor.
The group explodes with laughter.]
KARL: So I'm getting out of the frame again—by doing nothing. They just drop
by themselves.
FRANCESCO: [picking up flower and offering it to Karl] Want this?
KARL: No, it looks better on you.
FRANCESCO: Thank you. Tomorrow I change gurus.
KARL: Tomorrow you change gurus? Okay.
FRANCESCO: Okay? One second! Before "okay," you tell me "no, why?"
KARL: You think you would get that from me?
FRANCESCO: I know. I'm joking.
KARL: That would be something. "Please, stay!" So maybe not even
entertainment. [covers his head] Something has to drop now? [group laughs]

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MONIKA: The roof!
JAMES: Would you say Karl has to go?
KARL: No. How can something go that was never there? First find something
that is there, then we can talk about something that has to go.
JAMES: That's a good answer. [group laughs] I think that probably for some of
us, myself included, I still think of there being a "Karl."
KARL: Yeah, have fun with Karl, as this [points to himself] has fun with Karl
too.
JAMES: Another good answer.
KARL: It's all "fan-tastic." All "fan-tasy." Everything is "fun-tasy." Everything
is "fun-tastic," and everything is fun.
Sofia, something to add to that? [to the rest of the group] Sofia wants now
urgently to take peyote and really fly away. [Sofia laughs] "Once and for all, I
want to break out of that bondage of—"
THERESE: Entertainment! [group laughs] This morning I was thinking how I
have to go to another teacher, and then already I was missing the fun here. I
don't want to sit in silence.
KARL: You can never sit in silence anyway! What an idea, that someone would
be left in silence. "I'm sitting in silence."
BERTA: Yeah, but that was also Ramana's teaching.
KARL: But not sitting in silence.
BERTA: He was silent.
KARL: No, no, he was not silent. There was silence, but there was no one who
was silent. That's the difference. As what you are is silence too, there is no
difference. And that noise, that movement, or whatever, cannot disturb that
silence, that's all. He was always aware of that silence, but there was no one
aware. There was simply that silence aware about itself.
BERTA: I think that was what delighted me so much with Papaji.
KARL: I have no idea.
BERTA: Because he also was what you said but cannot say. It is like he also
was in silence.
KARL: But there was no one in silence.
BERTA: That's what I mean; I cannot say it like you.

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KARL: Forget Papaji, the form, the name, whatever. There was never any
Papaji. Silence will be there, with or without that name of Papaji or whatever
master or anything. Silence is what is existence itself. It doesn't need any name
of Papaji or Ramana or anything, even Arunachala.
BERTA: If you never heard about it, it's great to have a man like Papaji with
whom you sit in silence, and then you become aware of That which you are
already.
KARL: No, he may show you that you will never sit in silence. It will not be
your silence—that he can show you. But you can never sit with anyone in
silence. No one can bring you that silence you are. Not even Papaji or Ramana
or any, whatever, form. He can point to that he is no different from what you
are, that silence is your nature, your very nature. There's nothing to come,
nothing to go for it, and he cannot bring it to you, and he cannot give it to you.
There is nothing to give, nothing to teach, nothing to get, from whatever, not
even from him.
I tell you again, if you really respect Papaji, let him die as a figure, as a name.
Be what is Papaji, forgetting him totally and not making him an icon. That he is
asking you now.
KRISTOPH: If you meet Buddha, kill him.
KARL: If you really have respect for That which you call your teacher, let him
die in front of you, because he wants you to let him die, so that you die with
him, at that very instant, into That which is silence, where there is no Papaji, no
you, no nothing else anymore—where there is pure silence, That which is Self,
without any second.
KAATJE: So we just have to relax and let go.
KARL: You can never relax! You cannot get more relaxed than you already are.
You are relaxation itself. What an idea, that you can get more relaxed or a
person can ever be relaxed enough that it can go to that silence. Never, ever can
any form reach that silence. What an idea that you can relax! [pause] Nothing to
hope for.
And the new relaxation, what will it bring to you? What is new, gets old and can
go again. Forget it. That which is your nature is here, now, absolutely relaxed.
And that new relaxation is simply like an idea, a fantasy, of one who is himself a
fantasy.

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Blowing away belief systems
PETE: Will you talk about the difference between the "I" and the "I am"? I'm
confusing those two. You were saying the "I am" is formless and the "I am so-
and-so" is form—
KARL: Yeah, and what is the pure "I" is formlessness. This is the Source of
form and non-form, which is awareness. There is not even the idea of "non-
form." There is no second in awareness. There is not even space. The "I am" is
already space-like, formless consciousness. And out of that space, or emptiness,
comes form. "In-form-ation." Both come together at once, as polarity, form and
non-form, as one. Both come together out of what is awareness.
PETE: So the "I am" is potential form?
KARL: No, even the "I am" already is form-like. Even the non-form is a kind of
form. They both come together. There is no form without non-form. There is no
emptiness without fullness. Both come together at once out of what is the
Father, the awareness.
In Christianity, you might say the Father [holds up thumb] is awareness as
Source, and then the "I am" [thumb and index finger] is the Holy Spirit, and out
of the Holy Spirit there comes information as "I am so-and-so" [thumb, index,
and middle fingers]. So the formless "in-forms" itself into "in-form-ation." Both
come together as that "in-form-ation" of that manifestation, as form and
formless. Both come out of the Father, out of what is awareness. So Father
[thumb], Holy Spirit [thumb and index finger], Son, or world [thumb, index, and
middle fingers] is like another trinity.
But That [fist] is what you are. So even with awareness, you are That which is
awareness. Then comes "I am"-ness, and you are That which is "I am"-ness.
And then comes "I am so"-ness, or the world, and you are That which is the
world. And you are here, now, That which is Heart itself, as awareness, as "I
am"-ness, and "I am so"-ness [fingers up—one, two, three—then back into fist,
in quick succession again and again].
And there is silence in all this. Because silence is all there is. Nothing happens
in That. Never anything comes or goes in That which you are.
THERESE: [showing fingers and then drawing them back into fist] But from
there, it goes to there—something happened.
KARL: Nothing happened. This awakening of the awareness is infinite. It never
started. As this is [fist], these are there too [thumb and fingers]. There's no
waking up from that to that [finger to finger]. You cannot wake up, because it
never happened.

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There is a totality as Heart and the manifestation. It never comes and never goes.
As infinite as is That which is Heart, is That which is manifestation. There is no
coming and going in anything. It never wakes up to anything. Awareness is as
infinite as That which is awareness, and "I am"-ness is as infinite as That which
is "I-am-ness," and "I am the world" is as infinite as That which is the world.
There is no coming and going in anything.
So there never was any waking up. You cannot put some time into something
where there is no time. There was never any such thing as time, as something
creating, something created, because nothing ever was created. Whatever is, is.
There was never any point of big bang. Maybe there's a Big Ben in London but
not a big bang in existence. Hope that it's clear! [group laughs]
But that alone is peace, this absolute, immense peace of That which is Heart,
never coming, never going. Realization is no different from That which is Heart,
as everything that is, is Heart, or Self. That is as solid as solid can be. Never
changing, never coming, never going. This moment is as infinite as That which
is Heart, because the essence of this moment here, now, is That which is Heart.
JAMES: Those three states, they exist simultaneously? They both exist
simultaneously and don't exist simultaneously?
KARL: They are, but they are not.
JAMES: And there is no one in any of those three states?
KARL: No, you are That which is Self in any circumstance, but yourself, you
don't have any circumstance. You're never in any circumstance. All the
circumstances are your infinite realization, but there is no one who is in any
circumstance.
That is what is meant by If You Meet the Buddha On the Road, Kill Him,
because Buddha cannot walk the earth. It's never some form or name or
anything. It's a nice book title. It helps you see what is your nature, That which
is Buddha himself, that Buddha nature, can never incarnate into anything. It's
never in any circumstance or walking the world or whatever. It's never a part of
anything, because it cannot be divided from something to another thing. So it is
never in any place, but there is no place without it.
JAMES: Which is why there is no one that gets enlightened?
KARL: No, never was, never will be. Again, when Ramana was asked about his
realization, he said that the Self is ever-realized and Ramana is no different from
the Self, so That which is Ramana is as ever-realized as That which is Self.
There is no question. There is no new realization of any kind. So you realize that

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you are realized. But that is nothing new. There is no one who is realized then,
more than another one.
Come in, then you can look out. Have a seat. Have a sip? [drinks from his bottle
of juice] Thank you.
FRANCESCO: I love you. [sound of water trickling is heard] Oh, very quickly
you— [group laughs]
KARL: So, very quickly it goes! Is there some question about this, about
personal entertainment?
KRISTOPH: At some point the personal story has to end. Isn't it like that? How
can you say there's no personal story?
KARL: Nothing has to end. You may say at the end, in what you would call
"end," you see there was no beginning.
KRISTOPH: Okay. You see it from the point of the Absolute, but there's also
the personal view, no?
KARL: Yeah, I heard about it. [group laughs]
KRISTOPH: But if you remember your story—maybe you cannot remember
anymore—you were also once in that state where you were identified with your
form.
KARL: No, I was never in any state. That state of ignorance appeared in That
which I am, but That which I am was never ignorant. So I was never in any
ignorant state. That ignorant state, what you would call "a person," appeared in
That which I am. And then it may disappear. But there is no need of it, because
it was never there. That appearance of that personal ignorance, whatever state, is
there or not, but who cares about it? And who needs it to drop? And who needs
what to end? I have no idea.
KRISTOPH: So its just like a fleeting— like a leaf in the wind. You get
identified or not.
KARL: Yeah, it's a "be-leaf" system. It's a leaf in the wind, because it's a "be-
lief" system. [group laughs] "Be-leaf" it or not!
As long as you are in a belief system, you are like a leaf in the wind. And then,
"Oh, existence is blowing me! Maybe where I don't want to go. Maybe blowing
me away." So you are blowing in the wind.
And then you come to this point, "Oh, I am the wind. I am consciousness. I am
the all-creator." From one "be-leaf" system, you've gone to another "be-leaf"
system, of being then the creator of that leaf and that belief system. Then you

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think, "Oh, this place is maybe a better place for me to land. I am not a leaf
anymore, I am the wind who blows the leaf." It's a big blow system, a blow job.
[group laughs]
Yeah, because you're still quite dependent. It's a dependency. First you are
dependent on the wind that blows you, then you are the blower, but you are still
depending on blowing the leaf, because you cannot otherwise. You have to
create. You have to blow because you are the wind. The function of the wind is
to blow, the function of the leaf is to be blown—blown away.
KRISTOPH: But in reality, you are both?
KARL: You are neither one. You are neither the wind nor the leaf.
KRISTOPH: You are that one who sees that? You are the one in whom this is
happening?
KARL: No. You are That which is that. But there is no one who sees it. Even
that one who sees it is part of that belief system. Even that relative seer, that
perceiver or experiencer, is part of that absolute experience. So I am not
whatever you call "experiencer."
You may call it, as Ramana did, "the absolute dreamer," and the relative
dreamer, as an experiencer, is part of that dream, that absolute dream or
realization, but That which is the real, That which is the Self, is never a part of
that dream. So there is neither the subject nor the object nor whatever you name
or frame. All that is dream-like in it, or no different from what is the dreamer,
but it is not That which is Self.
A truth you can talk about is not the truth. The truth you can frame by any name,
even "the witness," whatever you call it, cannot be That. The Taoist would say,
"The Tao you can talk about is not the Tao. But there is nothing but the Tao." So
you have to become that paradox, as you are That already.
KRISTOPH: So even if I wanted to find a name for it, that's a problem.
KARL: It's fine. That's what we are sitting here for. You bring something up,
and I klopp (beat) it. Then it's kloppt (beaten, broken).
But that's the whole thing. You want to imagine yourself, and by imagining
yourself, you want to frame yourself, maybe, because you want to know
yourself. Then you are in that imagining, so you become one who is imagining
himself, wanting to know himself. So you become consciousness meditating
about what you are. You are in the seeking, Self-inquiry business of
consciousness always looking for That which is consciousness.

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And one moment or one split second, consciousness becomes totally aware that
That which is consciousness cannot be in any frame. Of whatever. Then it's full
stop. And then in that full stop, that split second, it simply is then That which is
Self having absolutely no idea of even existence or non-existence. It's a total
absence of any absence or presence.
That's the life experience of Ramana when everything dropped, whatever can
drop as an idea or belief system, of being a body, being spirit, whatever comes
up. Everything is leaving you. Every belief system is seen as only a belief
system, a concept, but you are in spite of it. That which is Absolute, in spite of
any belief system or even awareness—That you are, That is life itself.
But this is not an experience; this is an absolute non-event. This is an absolute
non-happening, as whatever can happen, you can drop as an experience. Even
that experiencer gets dropped in That. What is left is home itself. But no one is
at home anymore.
TOMAS: And in which sense is that now different from any other belief
system? Isn't that also a belief system?
KARL: That's another belief system. This has to go too.
TOMAS: So there is no qualitative difference there?
KARL: This is a pointer to that quality you cannot frame. So even that frame
cannot fit That. You cannot frame it.
TOMAS: Even the pointer is a belief?
KARL: The pointer is a pointer. You can make it a belief system, if you like, if
you make it my belief system, and "by that pointer I will become something."
Then it becomes a belief system. If you take it purely as a pointer, then there is
no belief system because this pointer is now, not in any timeframe.
TOMAS: The pointer doesn't point to a belief system?
KARL: No.
TOMAS: So there is something different from a belief system?
KARL: There is something different. That which is a belief system, you cannot
believe in. You have to be that belief system itself.
TOMAS: As you are all beliefs systems anyhow.
KARL: Whatever you believe, you are.
TOMAS: So it makes no difference.

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KARL: It makes no difference. Only that you may totally see, by getting that
pointer, that whatever difference may be there, it makes no difference. Whatever
comes and goes will never make any difference for what you are. It never made,
and it never will make, any difference.
So all the differences, and all the different flavors and shapes of existence, and
states of coming and going, are there, wonderful, unique. Every moment is as
unique as can be. Every snowflake is as unique as you can get it. There is no
snowflake the same as any other. There is only the Self in a unique expression at
any moment. It's fantastic. So enjoy yourself.
TOMAS: Thank you.
KARL: There is no other Self that will enjoy you.

Not finding the sufferer

SOFIA: [quietly] I am just, uh, realizing that the mind cannot cope anymore
with all of this that is going on.
KARL: Yeah, that's what I'm here for.
SOFIA: Sort of— I don't understand— No. No, not today. Just—
FRANCESCO: For me, it's normal.
KARL: For him, it's normal.
SOFIA: Full, full— I don't know.
KARL: In German we say, it's like a universal— [asks the group] What is a
universal answer? Was ist eine universale Lösung? Yeah, its a solution.
Universal solution. The mind gets into that universal solution of that pointer to
that absolute silence, and it gets a total solution. It's an absolute solution.
GEORG: Absolution.
KARL: Absolution! You're in the church here, now. Every morning you go to
church, whether you like it or not. [group laughs]
But I don't sell the letters, the absolution letters. It was famous in the Middle
Ages to sell letters for the sins you have not even done yet, the sins you will do
the next day or next week. Best big business the Church ever was in. Most of the
churches in Europe were built by those letters. Best business, to create a sinner,
and then to give him absolution.
MONIKA: In advance!

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KARL: In advance, even. Until you die—but it's very expensive. [group laughs]
KLARA: But this is also a game of the Self.
KARL: Yeah, it's fun, isn't it? The Self gets paid by the Self. It's a joke anyway.
But if you don't laugh about the joke, no one else will laugh about the joke you
are. [group laughs]
THERESE: It's easy to laugh about the joke everyone is—except mine.
KARL: Oh, we can help you!
THERESE: [laughing] That's why I come.
KARL: You need a good mirror to laugh?
MONIKA: Such a happy failure!
KARL: Every morning, "Thérèse!" [group laughs] Your name? I always forget
your name.
MRS. ANGELINA: I have no name.
[The group reacts with a big "awwww!"]
KARL: They call her "a nobody." Oh, it's a big name—No Name. Well, we
found the No Name.
MRS. ANGELINA: Indian people call me "Auntie."
KARL: Italian Auntie. Auntie is good. "I'm Auntie—I'm not pro, I'm anti. I'm
against everything. I'm anti!" [group laughs]
MRS. ANGELINA: Anti-work, anti-meditation, anti-realization, anti-master—
KARL: You're the Anti-Christ! [group laughs] We found the devil! Coming
from Italy. Diavolo. Oh, so your name is Diavolo.
MRS. ANGELINA: Yes.
KARL: Ah, now we see. The Anti-Christ.
MRS. ANGELINA: [quietly] Anti-crisi (crisis; epileptic seizure).
KARL: The Anti-Crisis?
MRS. ANGELINA: [very seriously] I don't want any more crisis [seizures], any
more suffering.
KARL: [with mock sympathy] Aw!
MRS. ANGELINA: I am here for peace, for not suffering anymore.

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KARL: But as you don't want to suffer, you suffer.
MRS. ANGELINA: I know, but I am very—
KARL: Consistent, and stubborn.
MRS. ANGELINA: Yeah, yeah.
KARL: You always think, "I have a nail and I have a hammer; I have to do
something with them. Otherwise, I wouldn't have that. I have a mind; I have to
do something with it. Otherwise, I wouldn't have it. It has to be used. The
system doesn't give anything for nothing. If there is a possibility of suffering, I
have to do it. Otherwise, there would be no possibility." Yeah? Hallelujah. You
are a good dummy. They call it "crash test dummies for existence." [group
laughs]
FRANCESCO: It's a test. [explains to Mrs. Angelina in Italian]
KARL: Test dummy. It tests if the car is stable enough, or if the safety belt is
working. Or enlightenment—is this way or this way good enough? [group
laughs]
GEORG: So is every suffering actually optional, or is there a physical
component of suffering, and you only create a belief system to deny and get out
of this?
KARL: No, suffering starts with the first idea that there's an individual "me."
Your "I," already, is a psychic problem, a crisis, so with that suffering starts
already. Whatever you do out of that, is managing the existential crisis of that,
even to exist. Because that already is an existential crisis at the beginning.
Whatever you do afterwards, is trying to manage that suffering, because with
that already—taking that image of existence as what you are, giving some
reality to whatever experience, even to the first notion of awareness—you are in
separation.
There is me and myself, in a very subtle way. There is Heart and the idea of
"Self" as awareness, as a notion of existence. And out of that notion of
existence, taking that as real, you fall in love with what you are—and then you
start managing that crisis of existence.
So that suffering starts at that moment you take that awareness, or whatever
image, as "I," as real. That's the moment you fall in love with the second self,
you fall in love with the image even of awareness. You're in the potential of
suffering and that potential will always show itself.
With the beginning of taking whatever as Self, even the idea of "Self," the "I"
starts, the "I"-thought is there, and out of that potential "I"-thought, the Source

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of "I am" and the experiencer starts. Whatever is an experiencer is, in a way,
suffering, because there is separation. In whatever you find yourself, in whatever
way, whatever image you take as yourself, whatever form or name you give
yourself, it is suffering, because you step out of that Absolute you are.
GEORG: Yeah, I think I understand that, but I'm trying to apply it to practical
matters. If I get hit by a truck, let's say, I'm in physical pain and—
KARL: That's not suffering, that's pain. Suffering starts if you call it "my pain."
If you make it minute by minute my pain, "I have a history of pain," and "the
history of pain comes by me, who has a history of pain," then it becomes
suffering.
Without that ownership idea that it is your pain, there is simply like a vibration
of energy of what you would call "pain," of some body having pain. And
without the idea of "my body," without that ownership idea of any kind, or
without that experiencer taken as real, there is no suffering. There is simply one
experience of That which is existence.
There's an absolute acceptance of That because there is no way out of it. You see
that experience of pain as unavoidable, as it is what you are, and it simply shows
one aspect of your infinite nature. Only if you take that body as a separate
individual body, as my body, then whatever comes to this body is suffering.
From birth, the first mistake, taking that "steak" as real, you become a sufferer.
First you seek the breast of your mother to become satisfied in your stomach,
but even then there is no "me," there is no ownership. It only starts at three
years, when you say "my body," because your mother told you that it's your
body, it's your toy, and it's you who did it, so take care!
The caretaking starts with three years; before that there is no caretaking. There is
whatever experience of being hungry and then looking for that milk to get
normal working energy. Action-reaction. But with three years, there is a
conditioning. It's finished, and then the "me" is there, completely developed as
an ownership—my body, my individual existence. Then the suffering is really
built in.
KRISTOPH: One needs the individuality to function, or what?
KARL: Oh, I don't say there is something wrong with it. It's simply for you to
see the functioning of what is consciousness coming out of that non-
identification into identification. Again, I want to point out, it's unavoidable that
consciousness does this. This is a functioning of consciousness—stepping out of
that formless into form, "in-form-ation," and identifying with that.

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Still, there is something prior to that consciousness, wherein all that happens,
which was never touched by that, never involved in anything, which is
perception itself, you may say. That which is the absolute dreamer was never a
part of any dream that identifies itself with consciousness.
It's not you, but you're taking that awareness—that second self—as what you
are. You're falling in love with it; you're glued to it. And the only solution is that
heartbreaking thing, because heartbreaking means you drop out of that self-love.
By accident, you love some image, whatever, even light, you take that light as
an image of what you are, as a second one, and you fall in love with yourself,
and out of that love, all the rest comes, and that love then becomes love and
hate, and all the polarity, and all the suffering.
The source of suffering is falling in love with what you are not, an image of
yourself—as even the first image of awareness, of light—and out of that first
"I," all the rest comes. So by seeing awareness is there because you are, as you
are That which is awareness, then even awareness cannot touch you. Everything
is because of you, but you have no cause.
Then who cares about what is coming after the first awareness as "I am"? All
that is dream-like realization, and it cannot touch what you are. So as you are
never born, That which is not born cannot suffer from something that is
objective experience. That's all.
So you're that total "split second." For That which you are, nothing ever
happened at all. There is no birth, no death. Everything will come as belief
systems, but only That which you are is life itself. So whatever you can
experience is dead, is empty. And That which is an absolute experience of life
itself, you can never experience. You simply are that unimaginable,
unexperienceable Self. Whatever comes out of That is imagination coming and
going, but there is no caretaking. Because whatever you can imagine is simply
an imagination.
This is simply pointing to that absolute unborn you are, which was never in any
suffering system. But the first moment you step out of that, by taking any idea or
belief system as real, the sufferer starts, the suffering starts. For you, it's
unacceptable that there is a second, because you step out of that absolute peace,
out of the freedom from a second, into that idea of "a second," and then there is
war. Even if you call it "love," that love is war. The defense system starts, the
conserving of whatever is there then, as you make an individual existence, a
separate being.
Even this idea becomes so real, because whatever you give your attention to is
reality. Whatever you take as real is real. So at the moment that you take that
separation as real, it is as real as it can get.

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Only when That which is awareness turns around to That which is awareness,
it's like a mirror that is totally mirroring That which is prior They call it "the
inner sun rising," but this has no cause, it comes and goes, not by any effort, not
by any doing or not doing in front of it. So in spite of all your effort, you are, but
you cannot avoid any effort. This paradox you cannot solve.
That helplessness—to see that as paradise—that's what I'm sitting here for. I'm
pointing to That which you are, that helplessness, as there is no second.
Whatever you like to control, you are controlled by. Whatever you see, whatever
you experience, is no different from what you are. By trying to control what you
see—and thinking that by controlling it you are getting out of it—what an idea!
So whatever you like to control puts you in that frame, and you get imprisoned
by that idea or belief system, whatever you do. Whatever definition you start
with is imprisonment.
Only the absolute absence of any idea of what you are and what you are not, and
even the absence of that, is That which you are. That is silence and That is
peace, this immense peace which you cannot experience, because you are That.
That is why it is called "the nakedness of existence."
MR. RAO: Is it what you call "the natural state"?
KARL: You can say it's the statelessness that is your natural state, That which
has not, and never will have, any state. All the states are from that absolute
Source, but That which is the absolute Source has no source. So it's a
statelessness wherein all the other states and ideas and images appear.
There is no state without That, but itself, it has no state. You may say there is no
place for it, but no place is without it. It is always this absolute essence of
existence, never the form or non-form, or whatever you give it as a name or
frame or belief system.
I Am That means "I am that—question mark." Absolute question mark. That
absolute mystery of what you cannot frame, and as much as you try, you cannot
put it into any system. By not finding what you are, whatever you found, in
whatever experience, drops. By not finding that absolute experiencer, as that
relative experiencer which comes up in the morning is already part of the
experience, you cannot be that experience of that experiencer. That absolute
experience has to be prior to that. That's all.
Always prior, prior, prior. It's a pointer, but simply go to That which is prior,
what they call "the total abstract," "the total substratum." It's a concept, but just
the concept that you cannot be a concept.

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In German, they call it "kotzept" (vomit; play on Konzept). So it is an outbreak
of all the ideas at once. It's even the outbreak, the vomiting out, of any idea that
you even exist. It's an absolute diarrhea of concepts. [group laughs]
MRS. ANGELINA: [with deep anguish in her voice] But Karl, when strong pain
comes—
KARL: You cry.
MRS. ANGELINA: What can I do?
KARL: Cry.
MRS. ANGELINA: I have to make it something.
KARL: What?
MRS. ANGELINA: I don't know. Karl, I ask you because you can answer
maybe.
KARL: Well, I answer you—cry. What to do?
MRS. ANGELINA: [crying pleadingly] But you have to make it something
when you have this big suffering.
KARL: Whatever you do, you feed it. Whatever you want to avoid, you feed by
avoiding it. You cannot avoid the avoidance.
MRS. ANGELINA: I cannot?
KARL: [sternly] You cannot avoid the avoidance. You cannot avoid the pain.
MRS. ANGELINA: [weeping] I cannot?
KARL: No!
MRS. ANGELINA: It's not possible?
KARL: But that is the "no way out," and that's the only way out of that pain.
MRS. ANGELINA: But I have to have the suffering stop!
KARL: There is no sufferer. Simply try to find the sufferer. Full stop. And I
promise you, you will never find that bastard!
MRS. ANGELINA: I will never find—
KARL: You will never find that bastard of suffering. As you cannot find the
sufferer, there never was any suffering.
MRS. ANGELINA: [quietly] You sure?
KARL: But if you try to stop the suffering, you feed the sufferer.

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MRS. ANGELINA: Because I see my suffering increasing.
KARL: Yeah, it's a crisis. Always increasing. As much as you want to avoid it,
it is increasing. And I'm asking you, as Ramana would ask you, to find that
bloody sufferer.
The ultimate medicine to whatever is suffering is trying to find the sufferer, and
by not finding the sufferer, there was never anyone that was suffering. It's part of
history. And if you could not find that ownership of history, of "me" being in
any history, what is the history of suffering? A joke. An idea suffered by another
idea! [sarcastically] Oh my goodness, I'm really full of compassion for that idea
who is suffering about another idea!
[seriously] I absolutely don't want the pain to stop for you. Absolutely not. As
every pain, whatever aspect of existence, is there to be experienced by that
absolute experiencer you are. There is no avoidance. You cannot escape what
you are. And every pain is one Self-experience of your infinite nature. There's
nothing to get away from. You cannot escape what you are. Never, ever!
[Suddenly, Mrs. Angelina smiles through her tears.]
KARL: Ah!
MRS. ANGELINA: I like this!
[The group, which had been utterly silent witnessing Mrs. Angelina suffering,
now erupts in loud laughter.]
KARL: As you feel— That is paradise!
[The group is delighted and amazed. People are clapping and sighing with
relief.]
MRS. ANGELINA: Because everyday I try to feel better, and I don't feel it.
KARL: You feel worse. That's the thing of it—by trying to feel better, for sure
you feel worse.
MRS. ANGELINA: And the people tell me, "Take this pill, or take this, or take
that," and every day is worse. [with lightness in her voice] But now, I don't
know, something—
FRANCESCO: For now, it's okay.
KARL: Here's the devil again. He just said, "Don't worry; it will come again."
[group laughs] He knows himself. "Mea culpa!"
This ultimate medicine is the only pointer I can give you. The ultimate
medicine—find the sufferer, or find the one who could be sick. And by not

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finding that one who could be sick, because That which you are cannot be found
in any circumstance, this is the absolute end of suffering. The end of the sufferer
is the end of suffering, because by not finding that sufferer, there was never any
suffering. That's all. It's not even ending anything, because there was never
anything to end. So enjoy yourself.
MRS. ANGELINA: Karl, you see, sometimes I lost consciousness. I have
epileptic seizures.
KARL: Yeah, I like it.
MRS. ANGELINA: And when the epileptic crisis arrives, I feel, "O my God, all
finished!"
KARL: You will be finished.
MRS. ANGELINA: It's very strange because I don't have any control over my
body.
KARL: But that is great. This is a total pointer of grace to your helplessness.
Enjoy it! There's nothing that can harm you. There's nothing to lose by losing
that which is being conscious, losing control of whatever kind. There's nothing
better than losing that bloody controller. Then grace comes, and the hellfire
starts. By giving you even that epileptic experience of pure electricity, electricity
from the whole universe going through your little body—ohhhhahhhh! That's
grace! You get shocked out.
MRS. ANGELINA: It's grace? You tell me it's grace?
KARL: Yeah, I tell you.
MRS. ANGELINA: Oh, I am happy! [group laughs]
KARL: Believe it or not, this electricity is what you are, is consciousness. Pure
electricity. All the forms, everything, is electric, so when that armor breaks and
that electricity goes through you, it's like an epileptic seizure, because you
cannot keep alive that individual armor around you, as a body-mind organism.
I had so many dreams, reality dreams, in the seventies, where I went to different
teachers. They all came and said, "Blah, blah, blah," and at the very end was
always this electric shock, touching the elbow. Boom! That was like epilepsy, as
I know it fully. Then you are totally shocked for hours, in that electricity, pure
"bvbvbvvvvv," always giving you what you cannot take. Yeah, sounds good.
Ah, I'm very happy for you.
MRS. ANGELINA: Thank you very much.

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KARL: No, this is actually only that you get used to what you are, in a way, by
becoming That which is energy. You see that whatever high electric voltage,
whatever goes through you, cannot touch you, as you are That already.
Whatever can be touched is an experience, but it cannot touch you as That
which is perception. That perception here, now, is no different from that
perception in your childhood, or as a baby, or even before. It was never touched
by anything. Not even that high electricity can touch That. So this shock, you're
not shocked by.
FRANCESCO: Just have another coffee.
KARL: Just have another coffee, yeah. [tenderly] Francesco!

No avoiding the void

LOUISE: But with that electricity, don't you have to be plugged in? Like, you
know, this Tauchsieder (immersion heater) thing? You plug it in and then it
boils the water.
KARL: But you're never plugged out. How can you plug out of existence?
LOUISE: But nothing comes out if you don't plug it in.
KARL: There is no plug! How can you plug in, when there is no plug?
LOUISE: Well, let's say I'm the Tauchsieder.
KARL: You're the Tauchsieder? Oh my goodness.
LOUISE: I mean, just talking about that electricity. Dreaming about that thing.
Electricity itself is nothing.
KARL: What nothing?
LOUISE: You have to plug in and use it.
KARL: It's nothing? Put your finger into the plug and you will see what
electricity is. Nothing?
LOUISE: Well, there's something at the end.
KARL: At the end?
LOUISE: There's first water, and then there is electricity.
KARL: Did you see the film Matrix? You saw that they were using bodies of
humans as batteries, giving electricity to the whole system. So you are already
electricity; you don't have to plug into it. You are already that electricity.

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LOUISE: Okay.
KARL: So what, okay? Where is the Tauchsieder now?
LOUISE: I just got stuck.
KARL: You got stuck in the Tauchsieder, yeah.
LOUISE: [laughing] I started boiling!
KARL: You are boiling. Let's see where the Siedepunkt (boiling point) is
reached. Steams up.
JAMES: In Buddhism, there is a kind of ongoing discussion about what
enlightenment is. In one school, they're pointing to this refining of awareness to
the point where one maintains this experience of awareness.
KARL: They call it in German "die Scheidewand der Wahrnehmung." Sounds
good. What's that in English?
MONIKA: The wall of perception.
KARL: No, the border, the border of perception. Like the borderline. In the
Bible, they would say "the youngest day." Stay on the youngest day, before
time, before time or any idea of time and non-time—be on that border, the
judgment border, before judgment.
So it's judgment day. The youngest day before any judging, any time or non-
time, before any concept happened. You stay in That which is prior, simply
prior, to what wakes up in the morning. Not going with that body waking up and
its experiences. That is what is meant in Buddhism, no?
JAMES: Well, the other school says that—in a sense, what I'm hearing from
you—it's prior to awareness.
KARL: They call it "awareness of awareness," "emptiness of emptiness." They
put always two things on it. And for me, it's the same. That which is awareness
is the awareness of awareness. So it's like the fullness of fullness. The I am-ness
of "I am"-ness. It's always that pointer to that absolute Heart of existence. So
there is no difference.
JAMES: So from that then, you come into this thing you talked about, this non-
event and the non-experience. Can you talk a bit more about that?
KARL: By the way. Not on the way—by the way. In spite of the way. In spite of
what are fleeting experiences in front of who you are. This "in spite" is the "split
second," and then there is nothing to add. In spite of all the history, in spite of all
that ever happened to what is in front of you, to that body-mind, or whatever, as

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an experience you can experience—in spite of all that, you are. But That which
you are, you absolutely don't know.
JAMES: But still, this is tricky.
KARL: Tricky?
JAMES: There was a time when that non-event, or non-experience, happened.
KARL: You may say, for that body-mind organism, there is still time, because
without time, without separation, there would be no form or non-form. But there
was not a time. It is here, now. This body needs time. This imagined object
needs a subject in a circumstance, simply to be experienced. So you need that
imaginable time and frames and bodies and objects, so that experiences can
happen.
JAMES: So that non-event, that non-experience—
KARL: Is here, now.
JAMES: All the time?
KARL: There is no time in it. Not even non-time. Time and non-time appear in
That.
JAMES: So that's the reality of what is Karl, constantly?
KARL: No, this is the reality of That which doesn't know reality. And That
doesn't want to know it, because there is nothing to know.
JAMES: The thing I was trying to get from you—which I haven't succeeded in
getting yet [group laughs]—is, Was it a one-time event? I know there's no such
thing as time, but time does seem to continue.
KARL: No, no. This—to be That to which nothing ever happens—was never
different. In That, there is no coming and going. So it's here, now—or never.
JAMES: Yeah, but in that, in what you say—
KARL: No, its simply a pointer. It is never, never! That's a split second of being
never-never. Not even ever. It's never-never. So what then, when what you are is
never-never? Are you ever? No. You are never-never.
JAMES: That's why I asked that question yesterday. In that non-event, in that
experience, does the world disappear?
KARL: It's not a non-experience. It's the experience that, what is an experiencer
and whatever you can experience, you are not. It's an absolute experience of
being absolutely independent of whatever you experience, even absolutely
independent of that experiencer. It's an absolute experience of That which you

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may call "freedom," but having no idea of what is and what is not freedom. It's
simply being That which can never be touched by any senses or by anything you
can sense of objective life.
So you are as That which is ever in no sense. All the senses are there, but you
are never in any sense—never was and never will be. And for That which was
never in any sense, which was never born and may die, in that moment, the idea
of "death" is dying. That's all. You see what you are is never-never.
But this is nothing new or old; this was never-never. So that anything can be
there—any concept, any belief system, any image—you have to be there first as
That which is never-never. That which is never-never is that substratum that you
cannot reduce anymore. At that moment of total reduction, you reduce yourself
to the max. So, in that moment, you become emptiness and fullness together. As
you are in that emptiness of ideas, the Heart is so empty in itself that only then
can it contain the fullness of that absolute existence. So you go back to that
maximum reduction to become that maximum of absolute existence.
The other way is simply impossible. That is why the Buddhists are pointing so
much to this emptiness, to go into that emptiness. To reach to the absolute
aspect, to become that oneness with everything [makes a big exhale], you cannot
reach. But to get to that emptiness of Heart, there's a natural pull from inside.
You just see that pull as what you are, and then you simply rest in that. And that
void which is there, it simply becomes a best friend, that paradise.
So you don't want to avoid the void anymore. Maybe before you wanted to
avoid that dying, or whatever, because the void means dying, dying of objects.
But if you see, that void is what you are, by becoming aware of that void, that
emptiness, then you simply rest in that—by that seeing that there is nothing to
fear. That is what Jesus was saying—don't fear what you are. Because that
absence, that absolute absence of any idea, you are, that absence of any idea is
the void. The total void, that abyss, you are. That darkness of knowledge, you
are.
You are not the light of anything, because that is called "Lucifer." Whatever will
bring you light is Lucifer. Whoever brings you something, promises you some
knowledge, even if it's what is consciousness or light, promising some
knowledge that can add something to your nature—it's all a lie. It cannot add
something to whatever is you. So that lie of light, that Lucifer light who tells
you, "I can bring you something. I can help you. I can make you more happy
than you are. I can bring bliss, whatever, heavenly bliss of the god tralala,
divine," even the "divine love" idea—is the devil's idea.
All the imagined belief systems and enlightenment—even the idea of
"enlightenment"—is coming out of that devil again. As if enlightenment can add

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something to your nature! What an idea? Always a joke! You are talking to
yourself, and you're creating that devil imagination, and then it talks to you all
the time, and it's promising something, but it never can keep the promise.
It will never deliver the treasure you are. You are That which is God itself. All
the ornaments—whatever it says, even the promises—are still gold. They cannot
touch you.
So don't believe yourself. You cannot even trust yourself. That's the beauty of it.
There's always this image of yourself—"Trust me. I lead you. Trust me."
Always talking. "Trust me. I can deliver." Hah! No. You cannot even trust
yourself, as there is not even a Self to trust, as even the idea of "Self" is coming
out of the same whatever. No.
"Whew. Absolutely alone. No one to trust. No God, no Self. Whew!" But that's
paradise, that Godlessness, that helplessness, that "one without a second," that's
paradise. Not even knowing yourself. A total absence even of an idea of "Self"
or "God" or anything, you are That which is, whatever it means.
FRANCESCO: Whatever! That's paradise.
KARL: Ah!
JAMES: Now you've got flowers. Next there will be candles and incense.
FRANCESCO: Tomorrow, that. I forgot this morning. No, the flowers were
from her.
MONIKA: In spite of myself! [group laughs]

Dropping the whole existence

KARL: Tauchsieder, something?
LOUISE: I find it sometimes more difficult to be in the world, with what can't
be known, that void you are speaking of, and so this body-mind functioning,
anywhere, everywhere, nowhere, it appears sometimes one is not so much in it,
or one can step out of it.
KARL: Who can step out of it?
LOUISE: I don't know.
KARL: Yeah, I don't know either! I don't see anyone in the world. I don't see
anyone that can step out of it. What an idea that you can step out—of what?
LOUISE: Well, I do that.

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KARL: So you are still in. You did not step out. Because of that stepping out,
you are still in.
LOUISE: I know, and I find that sometimes harder.
KARL: What? Stepping out? Because that stepping out makes you in. You trick
yourself.
LOUISE: When this woman walked in, you said, "Come in so you can look
out."
KARL: Yeah. There is no difference.
LOUISE: So there it is. "Again and again, nothing to gain!" Well, what am I
asking? I don't know. [laughs] I'm not asking anything. I just, you know, could
also bring you roses and flowers, and I could just kiss your feet, or not, or throw
tomatoes.
KARL: You don't dare. [group laughs]
LOUISE: Tomorrow I bring tomatoes.
KARL: I will never wash my feet again.
LOUISE: I do have a question, but I don't know how to ask it. Sometimes I find
it harder.
KARL: What?
LOUISE: What? Yeah, really—what? What is harder?
A MAN: "I have to suffer! I have to suffer!"
LOUISE: You're not helping. [laughs] Bail me out!
KARL: I see the controller, and by controlling suffering, being in. Then
controlling, getting out, and then still controlling. Controlling, controlling. Yeah.
Enjoy your controlling.
LOUISE: But this is now an old number when you tell me that.
KARL: Yeah, I tell you every day, "Enjoy your controlling."
MAN: Until you believe it.
LOUISE: Until I believe it!
KARL: Until you get enough about controlling? No, you'll never get enough
control.
LOUISE: How come?

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KARL: It's part of the game.
LOUISE: But why me?
KARL: "Why me?" Take another "any-me." Take your enemy.
LOUISE: No, why do you tell me this? Is there nothing else?
KARL: Because I see the controller. By whatever you do, you control.
LOUISE: Any idea?
KARL: To step out of it? The moment you want to step out again you want to
control. You cannot escape that controlling. No way out of controlling.
LOUISE: Ooooh. [group laughs]
KARL: Until the brain is—
LOUISE: Bursting.
KARL: Bursting.
LOUISE: To pieces.
THERESE: That's why she put the scarf on.
LOUISE: It's a bandage!
KARL: Bandit. She's the bandit now.
LOUISE: [laughing] Bandito!
KARL: But you feel it. You just feel that heat.
LOUISE: Yeah, I do.
KARL: This is like the controller, here [points to forehead], the third eye. And
this is always controlling. Whatever it does, it controls. This is the devil,
controlling.
THERESE: So the one who doesn't have pain there is not controlling? I don't
have pain there.
KARL: She can simply not avoid the energy anymore, because the energy
comes too much. So there is that life energy waking up, and then the controller
really is in trouble, because the resistance makes that headache, that migraine.
So it doesn't work anymore, that controlling of whatever, because this "energy
hell" comes, this life energy that shows you your control. It's teaching you. "Oh,
you are controlling; let's see what we can do about it." That brings headache.
Then even she wants to control that headache or that energy, and then it

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becomes more headache. Like a self-running system, feeding itself. As I would
know it, eh?
But it's actually not so bad. Because only by that hellfire, by that pain, by that
"me-graine," the "me" is grained away by that life energy itself. That total
awareness annihilates that idea of "controlling," because there will be a point
when you see there was not any control in controlling, so even the control you
cannot control. So what to say? Grace all the way.
THERESE: But Karl, when I hear about this migraine— I don't have migraines.
KARL: Oh, now you want to have migraine?
THERESE: Yes. [group laughs] It seems like it's a stage, it's a great step, you
know, if you have migraines, lots of energy coming out.
KARL: I never say it's a great step; I just say it's a functioning. I just tell you
about the energy, how it's functioning. I don't say it's an advantage; I never say
that. I just say how it works. There's no advantage.
THERESE: It's no rule, because many people don't have migraine and they still
have life energy. Life energy is still in movement, and not everybody has
migraines.
KARL: No? But it may come.
THERESE: I sound like I'm saying, "Oh, I want a migraine."
BERTA: Oh, terrible—migraine.
KARL: Yeah, I tell you. If you look into that, there is a whole library in the
Vatican, rooms full of stories about sages with that inner fire arising, and always
with inner fire comes the body fire, and then the heart fire, and the migraines, all
the body-aches, and whatever you can imagine. It all comes with it. It's very
famous. I don't say it's an advantage. I simply say it happens like this. I don't say
it's a necessity.
THERESE: I'm missing all the time then—
KARL: You're missing everything! You're a happy failure! [group laughs]
THERESE: [laughing] On my death bed—
KARL: Now she's complaining again, "Oh, poor me. I have no migraines!"
That's a perfect example of individual personality.
THERESE: I'm having migraine now. Stop. [group laughs]
MONIKA: She's happy!

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KARL: It's in the Bible. If you ask for it, it will be given.
BERTA: Yeah, and if you never heard about it, it will not happen, so I don't talk
about it anymore. [group laughs]
KARL: When it will happen, it will happen; if not, not. It simply means there is
no disadvantage or advantage in anything. But if it happens like this, this is part
of that entertainment, whether you like it or not. But again, there will be no
advantage for whoever, because there is no one who could have an advantage by
anything. Not even by that migraine. I know there are many people who then
think, "Oh, I am now in that energy thing, with kundalini and migraines, and
now I am mature and ripening."
MONIKA: At least something's happening.
SOFIA: But sometimes it doesn't lead anywhere.
KARL: It never will lead anywhere. Not sometimes. There is never anything. It
never leads to anything.
SOFIA: But sometimes this "split second," sometimes not.
KARL: The split second is never. I'm not talking about something that will
come. This split second is here, now. If it wouldn't be here, now, it would be
never. So there is nothing to come. It will never happen, that which cannot
happen. You'd better not wait for it, because it will never come.
That's the good news. It will never come. With or without migraine, it will not
come.
If it really would help some existence to become That which is Self, it would
stop right away, because there was Buddha, there was Jesus, there was Ramana,
there were so many big sages. If it really would help—those experiences of
whatever transformation, coming from identified consciousness into cosmic
consciousness, all that energy happening, then back to it—if it really would
help, this would simply stop. It could not continue. For one Self, that would be
the end. By whatever transformation or transmutation into something else, the
whole existence would simply drop.
If you could control That which is existence itself, as That which is Self, by
whatever experience of heat, or whatever transformation, what kind of freedom
would it be? So all this is part of the show, but it makes no difference. There
will be Thérèse forever, Thérèse still waiting for migraine. [group laughs]
THERESE: It's new now, a new one, migraine.
KARL: Then there's maybe one who gets this experience, split second, blah,
blah, blah, and then he goes, "Oh, what have I done before this split second?"

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And then it becomes a religion or a technique of Yoga. "Because I, by doing this
and this, had this and this experience of my body, of heat, so it has all to be
connected to my experiences before." He takes even that experience of that non-
happening as a personal experience. Then whatever was before is taken as
"because of that, I came to that point."
But never because of any step before, That is. In all of the steps, it was already
there, so it's nothing new. I'm always pointing only to That. Never because of
any doing or not doing, in spite of the heat, in spite of migraine, in spite of all
the sensations and happenings and stories and histories, you are what you are,
never because.
So forget it. It may happen or not, but who cares? It's not an advantage or
disadvantage. It's simply like a different sensation in what you are. It's a
different body sensation.
And by seeing that, for what you are, there is never any such thing as an
advantage in anything, the disadvantage drops too, and then you are what you
are, in spite of whatever, never because of any body heat, or anything to drop.
There is nothing to drop. This is part of the show. You may enjoy it, but it will
not help you.

You cannot not realize yourself

BERTA: Utterly hopeless.
KARL: [laughing] Isn't it fun? Imagine there is hope! Hope is hell. This devil
always is there who wants to pick something up and say, "Look, maybe this will
help. If you do this, I promise you paradise."
BERTA: That's also why I'm sitting here, not only because you take this hope
away, but because you have the ability to talk about That. Then if I don't hear
that for a long time—when I met you it was like three years that I didn't hear
anybody—it feels like I forget. I cannot get it out of books or tapes. Hopeless as
you are, somewhere there's a hope.
THERESE: Hopeful hopelessness.
KARL: Hopeful hopelessness! There is still hopeful hopelessness.
MONIKA: But there must be something. Something, somewhere, must be
getting something out of this, because really there's no logical reason to sit here.
[group laughs]

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KARL: Yeah, I'm a running advertisement. "Look at me. I should be the most
frustrated man on earth, because I'm sitting here talking to whatever, shadows,
and they cannot understand anything, and it's all irrelevant, means nothing,
nothing has to be helped, or anything. I should be totally frustrated."
MONIKA: Yeah, so are we. I mean, I am. [group laughs]
KARL: But I tell you, that helplessness, that total irrelevance, is paradise.
Because this is freedom. Absolute freedom. There's nothing to get out of any
circumstance. So it's absolutely irrelevant what I say or not. But this is absolute
freedom—in spite of what I say or don't say, I am what I am.
MONIKA: But in this association, whatever, of no expectation, no getting—
KARL: No, it's not "no expectation, no getting." I'm not talking about "no
expectation."
MONIKA: Okay, expectation, but not getting.
KARL: There may be expectations, but who cares?
MONIKA: Some merit, or some thing is there.
KARL: Maybe not.
MONIKA: It makes no difference. But I don't even understand.
KARL: She thinks, "If that German can do it, I can do it too." But there is no
one who has done it. I tell you over and over again, I never reached anything, as
I never left anything. I cannot reach again what I am. So I didn't reach anything.
So from me, for sure, there is nothing to get.
FRANCESCO: True.
KARL: You cannot get anything out of emptiness.
MONIKA: Emptiness?
KARL: Maybe That is what you are, but That you cannot get. Because by that
seeing, that out of emptiness nothing comes, that you never left emptiness and
you are That, so you see emptiness cannot be given. You are that emptiness.
That is like this paradox. I point to it. You may see that, out of emptiness
nothing comes, and nothing goes back to emptiness.
You are that emptiness itself, which has nothing to reach, nothing to gain, by
anything. As you never left emptiness, you cannot gain it back. So that pointer,
that you can get nothing from That which I am, as what is emptiness, is pointing
to That which you are. So that nakedness talks to that nakedness. That you think
is a merit.

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MONIKA: It's a pointer.
KARL: Sometimes they call it "the divine wedding." When you see the beloved
is emptiness, and the lover is emptiness too, and in that emptiness, both
disappear. But this is again a concept.
I'm always pointing to that "no way out." There was never anything coming
from what you are, and as you have never left whatever it is, there's no going
back to it. But this "no way back to it," maybe that is a way back. Who knows?
Simply by you seeing that you never left. You are That which is home anyway.
You never left home. There is no one at home. Never was anyone at home, as
you are That which is home. All this is a pointer. Maybe on one point, pointing
to That which you are totally, you will be pointed out.
MONIKA: And then I'm pointless.
KARL: Then you are the pointless point. You are not pointless; you are the
pointless point.
MONIKA: But it has been pointless?
KARL: Before?
MONIKA: Before. [both laugh]
KARL: So you have pointing. Sometimes there is a nail and a hammer,
hammering it in. "There is nothing to hammer! I'm hammering, but there's
nothing to hammer. There's not even a hammer. "
TOMAS: I'm wondering about how somebody could take this split second
personally. It doesn't make any sense.
KARL: It makes sense.
TOMAS: It makes sense?
KARL: Yeah, because it doesn't make sense. Everything is possible. As no one
could ever experience that split second.
TOMAS: That's what I mean.
KARL: A person will always make it into an experience.
TOMAS: But the person cannot take something personally that he or she didn't
experience.
KARL: I tell you, it always takes everything personally even if there is nothing
to take personally. What is here? Everyone is— There is nothing personal here,
but you still take it personally. So even that split second—that experience of

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non-experience—you take personally, for sure. How can you not take it
personally?
TOMAS: Well, for sure, it is not for sure.
KARL: Not for sure? Maybe. Maybe not.
TOMAS: So it's not sure?
KARL: But that's sure. [group laughs]
TOMAS: So even the split second is not a way out?
KARL: No.
TOMAS: Well, I'm waiting for it, whatever you say.
KARL: Yeah, you're Waiting for Godot, but Godot never comes. You cannot not
wait. But you can see Godot never comes, so you wait, but without waiting. That
is meditation.
When you meditate because you want a result of some whatever knowing what
you are, it's action with intention, which makes it personal. It's like an advantage
idea. "I'm doing something and wanting to get something out of it, even the
knowledge of myself."
But if you see that That which is what you are cannot be known in anything, and
you still meditate, without expectation, then there is doing without doership.
There is action without intention. There is no one who is acting. So there is still
action, but there is no active one or non-active one. As nothing can come out of
it for what you are. So it is unfolding itself by itself.
Infinite realization of what you are as the Self-experience can never stop, as you
cannot not experience what you are. So even the non-experience is an
experience. As you cannot step out of That which you are, you cannot step out
of that Self-experience. By Self-experiencing, you realize yourself. And you
cannot not realize yourself.
Whatever aspect of life, whatever moment, is part of that Self-realization and
Self-experience. And this will never stop. And this has all kinds of
experiences—there is heat, there is every sensation of what can happen with this
body—whatever in this time frame of this dream of experiences can happen. But
even as they can happen, they are not real.

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Finally, there is no "finally"
A Latino MAN: I have a question. It's sort of personal. Are you happy in your
life? Do you have any sufferings? And has your life changed after you have
come to realize your true Self?
KARL: I'm sitting here. There are always changes. For that body, whatever,
everything is changing every moment, but not because of that split second.
There is no cause and effect in That.
MAN: My question is—
KARL: If I'm more happy after that?
MAN: If you are just happy.
KARL: No. I have no idea of happiness.
MAN: Do you have an idea of suffering? Do you cry?
KARL: Crying? I cry often. When there is a sad movie, I cry. How can I not cry
when there is a tear-jerker movie? [group laughs] Really. It's made by me. They
call it "tear-jerker," and so I have to cry.
If you see, that compassion you cannot avoid. You are that. Whatever you see,
you are. There is no difference between the experiencer, the experiencing, and
what is experienced. Whatever sadness is there, you are. Whatever happiness is
there, you are. Whatever you can bring up, you are. How can you not be in
compassion with what you are?
MAN: Let's take the large scale, for the whole planet, for humanity.
KARL: For humanity? Oh. First you have to find humanity, and then we can
talk about it.
MAN: Anyway, there is what there is. Okay? Each week, every day, people give
more pain to one another.
KARL: Since humanity was there, there was war and pain and suffering. You're
right.
MAN: But it's getting more and more now.
KARL: No. Go to the Middle Ages, I tell you, there was enough pain and
suffering. Maybe the quantity of people is getting more, so you think there is
more quantity of pain and suffering.

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So what's your question? What shall we do with that humanity, or what? Don't
fuck anymore, because then there will not be more pain, maybe, because there
will not be people.
MONIKA: Brahmacharya!
KARL: No, if you ask me what to do with humanity, with all the people, I
would tell everyone, "Don't fuck anymore," so there would be no people
anymore, and then there's no suffering. Make a really radical cut.
Another MAN: Then you have a different kind of suffering!
KARL: You suffer for a while, until you die, because you don't have sex
anymore, but you simply stop that population. Stop popping, then there is no
population. [group laughs]
Latino MAN: So you're saying, there will always be suffering and pain.
KARL: No, there was never any suffering and pain. That's the problem. You
cannot stop something that was never there.
MAN: But you see the woman crying. She will cry tomorrow and the day after
tomorrow.
KARL: Yeah, she will always cry; it's her nature. [group laughs]
MAN: What's the ultimate goal?
KARL: That there is no goal. That's the ultimate goal—that there is no goal.
Finally, there is no "finally."
MAN: But the fact is still there—
KARL: What fact?
MAN: The fact—
KARL: Yeah, "fack-ing" around, it's still there.
MAN: We are not happy.
KARL: No? You can never find anyone who is happy. You're right. As there is
no one who can be happy. You cannot find anyone. First find one at all; and then
we talk about happiness and unhappiness.
MAN: It depends on the definition of happiness—
KARL: Only by definition, you create an idea of one, that's all. If you simply
stop defining, who is there? You have to define "humanity," so that there is
humanity.

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MAN: Buddha, Krishna, Rama, Ramana Maharshi, they say there have been
few, very few people who really became enlightened.
KARL: No. All of them you just mentioned said there was never anyone who
was enlightened. Buddha in the Diamond Sutra makes it totally clear. He said
that there was never any Buddha walking the earth and never will be. So there
will never be anyone enlightened. He said he'd preached for forty years and
hadn't said one word to anyone. That's Buddha.
And that was what Ramana was saying. That which is Ramana is Self, and that
Self is ever-realized. What you may call "Ramana" will never realize that Self,
as the Self is ever-realized.
So there was never any realized person on earth, as there was never any person
at all who could be realized. That which is any person is ever That which is Self
and is ever-realized and doesn't need any more realization than it already has.
The pot never will realize That which is a pot. So what is it about
enlightenment? First find one who is unenlightened, then we talk again about
enlightenment.
MAN: We are all unenlightened.
KARL: Who is here anyway? I'm not talking to ghosts! I don't see anyone here,
as ghosts can never be enlightened or unenlightened. I see Self here, now, as
That which is. There is no one, any one, here who is enlightened or not
enlightened. And I'm not talking to shadows. I'm not talking to ghosts who come
and go. I'm talking to That which I am.
MAN: But—
KARL: But? Yeah, but, ahh, ahh, brings but.
MAN: You said that there is this armor through which we cannot come through
toward the realization.
KARL: No, no, I didn't say that. In spite of the armor, you are what is Self. Not
because of some armor that drops. Then you didn't listen. I never said that
realization will come by anything. I always said realization is your nature. And
that realization, you cannot add something to it. So with or without armor, you
are what you are. Whatever circumstance you are in, the circumstance is because
of you, but you are not because of the circumstance. So in spite of the
circumstance of armor or no armor, you are what you are. So having an armor is
part of the realization, and there is nothing right or wrong with it.
MAN: So you might call some maniac or mass murderer—

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KARL: Yeah, you are that. You are that! By you thinking you are alive, you are
creating six billion others, and by making them alive, you are killing yourself.
You are the mass murderer by saying there are six billion people. You are the
biggest mass murderer I know. Simply by your thinking you're alive, you're
killing six billion.
MAN: I don't think so—
KARL: You create them! By you creating them, you kill them.
MAN: Then how to uncreate them?
KARL: You don't have to uncreate them; just stop creating. Be what you are,
and there is no one left.
MAN: And how to be what you are?
KARL: How? There is no "how."
MAN: You say, there is that emptiness of emptiness and stuff, but you don't say
do this or do that. Why?
KARL: No. Because you cannot get more empty than you already are. Whatever
you do is avoiding that. Whatever technique, or meditation, whatever you do, by
Self-inquiry is like avoiding that void. And by seeing the futility of any
technique, maybe, by seeing that nothing can come by any technique, by any
meditation, nothing can add something to what you are, you cannot find yourself
in any circumstance. So by not finding yourself in any circumstance, by any
looking or seeking, it may stop. In that full stop, you see you never lost
anything, and as you never lost anything, you cannot gain back something.
MAN: So there is a sort of action, which is called "seeing"—
KARL: Yeah, and you see, maybe by action, there is nothing to gain. Again and
again, I tell you, there is nothing to gain.
MAN: There's nothing to change?
KARL: First show me something that is there at all. The whole scientific world,
since the beginning of scientific experiences, is wanting to prove that there is
matter. Until now—no proof. They cannot even say if there is anything at all.
They can only say, "Oh, there is a quantum physics. There is a wave or a
particle, but we don't know what. It's always changing." So now all the scientific
people become Buddhists because they cannot find what is God. So they are
looking into this mysticism, and they've all become mystics.
THERESE: So now they look for techniques to find what they found already.

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KARL: They didn't find anything by anything. By any electron microscope,
nothing was found, because you always can split again, less, less, less. Infinite
less.
A WOMAN: Infinite parallel universes.
KARL: Whatever, but there is not even one you can find. So many parallel
universes, but there is not one you can find.
Latino MAN: So Karl, you told me, stop creating murders?
KARL: Yeah. Stop creating murders by imagining that you are alive. You stop
taking as real something that you imagine. You imagine you're alive, and this is
a concept. When you stop taking imagination as reality, at that moment when
you are not, when you have absolutely no idea if you exist or not, there are no
others anymore. At the moment you take yourself as that imagination, as real,
you create six billion others, so by your stopping—full stop—being That which
is prior to any imagination, there is no you and no others anymore. But at the
moment there is you, there are six billion others. So you create six billion others.
So you are the mass murderer here, now.
MAN: And so you.
KARL: No, not me. You! Especially you. [group laughs] There is no general
relation. Look only on what is you. There are no others anyway. I ask you, look
at what you are, not at what anyone else is. It's only you that counts. There are
no others anyway. So be totally shellfish in that. Shellfish? [group laughs]
Try to fish that fish you are. Become the fisherman who tries to fish the fish you
are. And as you cannot fish the fish you are, you become that fisherman who
cannot fish the fish the fisherman "ish"!
MAN: The thief cannot catch himself.
KARL: Yeah, but that's what you try to be. First you are a thief, and then you
become a policeman by saying, "I know the thief has to go." The mind first
becomes a thief who is stealing your attention, and then, by your not wanting to
give it attention, it says, "Okay, now I'll become a 'no-mind.' I'll make sure there
will be no mind anymore," says the mind, "so you will be not bothered anymore,
so I don't steal your attention anymore."
So after being a thief who steals your attention, then it becomes even the
policemen who tells you, "I'll make sure now there will be no thought anymore
that will bother you." So the "no-mind" then is there. What to do?
MAN: Nothing.
KARL: Nothing is quite a lot, I tell you. Even nothing is too much.

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[Silence.]
THERESE: So, Karl, with quantum physics, they have the answer, so-called.
KARL: No, they have no answer—that is the answer.
THERESE: But then they go to Buddhism to understand what they saw or they
didn't see.
KARL: First they go into that scientific thing, into that belief system of
scientific proof, and then they go to the opposite, to another extreme of another
belief system that there is—what? So they come from something into nothing.
First they want to find something, and then they want to find nothing. That's
Buddhism then, or whatever religion.
First you go into the world, to the outside, you want to find matter, or whatever
matters on the outside, happiness. And then you don't find matter, you can't find
it, so you go within, you go to the inside, and there you cannot find it either.
And by not finding, outside or inside, what you are, you stop totally—full stop.
So by not finding existence on the outside, you drop the idea of "outside," then
you go inside, but by not finding existence inside, you make a full stop.
First out and then in, but by no way do you find yourself. Neither the outer nor
the inner. There is neither outer nor inner Self. There is not even an inner Self,
as there is never any in or outside for what you are. So by absolutely not finding
what you are and what you are not, in any circumstance, you rest in that "not
finding." And by that not knowing, you know that you are not something you
can know.
That is Absolute itself. That is the freedom of the knower who knows or doesn't
know. Because in that absolute not knowing of what you are, you rest, in That
which is, that absolute knowledge that cannot be known by any relative knowing
or not knowing. So in spite of knowing or not knowing, you are that Absolute
you are, which is knowledge itself, but not by knowing or not knowing. Clear?
GEORG: Hammer.
KARL: Hit, hit, hit. Hit machine. This song is a hit. [group laughs] Ah, it's not
so heavy. It's so light. Unbearable Lightness of Being.
An American MAN: Not being. The unbearable lightness of not being.
KARL: No, of being.
MAN: Okay. Being and not being.
KARL: There is no "not being."
MAN: There is no being.

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KARL: But when there is no "not being," there is a being.
MAN: There's no being and there's no "not being"?
KARL: There is still a being. Even when there is not a being, there is still a
being. You cannot get out of being. You try hard. [group laughs] Here's another
one who wants to land in the "never" land.
MAN: [laughing] Never-never land.
KARL: In the "not being" land.
MAN: Okay, then practice being?
KARL: Whatever. Can you practice being? A practical being. Can you put being
to practice? "Now I want to learn how to be." Would you ask for that? Being is
your nature. It's totally natural. You are. You don't have to practice That. But
then you mediate on it. "How can I be That which I am?"
Ah, okay. Thank you very much.
GROUP: Thank you!
THERESE: Survived one more!
KARL: Survived another time. [sings] "This won't be the last time, this won't be
the last time—"
[Everyone is laughing.]

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Glossary

All terms are Sanskrit unless otherwise noted.

Advaita: non-duality; philosophy of non-dualism

ashram: hermitage; place of spiritual striving and retreat
avatara: divine descent
Bhagavan: Lord; revered person
bhakti: loving devotion
Bodhisattva: awakened one; compassionate one
Brahmachari: a person who follows the spiritual path of
Brahmacharya, which can include celibacy
Chi Kung: exercises to increase vital energy (Chinese)
dharma: "what holds together;" order; duty
ghat: landing place along a waterway
guru: teacher; spiritual master
Hari Om: Indian salutation; Hari is a name of Vishnu
Jin Shin Jitsu: energy work; a form of acupressure (Japanese)
jiva: individual soul; life; embodied self
jivanmukta: a person who is liberated while living
jnani: knower; wise one
karma: action; cause and effect
koan: paradoxical statement or unsolvable riddle (Japanese)
kundalini: life force; primordial or cosmic energy within the body
that, when dormant, lies coiled like a snake

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lassi: Indian drink made with yogurt and sometimes fruit
leela: divine play
linga: symbol of Shiva
maha: great; mighty; noble
maya: appearance; illusion; mysterious power of creation
moksha: liberation
Namaste: Salutations; I bow to you
neti-neti: not this, not this
nirvikalpa samadhi: non-conceptual state beyond all thought;
samadhi without any mental modifications
Om: the primordial sound
puja: worship; ritual
sadhana: self-effort; spiritual discipline
sadhu: a holy person; monk
sahaja samadhi: natural, spontaneous state of one-pointed
concentration or meditative oneness
samadhi: one-pointedness; absorption; union
samsara: empirical existence; objective universe; worldly illusion
sat-chit-ananda: being-consciousness-bliss
Satguru: teacher of reality
satori: insight; a state of spiritual enlightenment sought in Zen
Buddhism (Japanese)
satsang: holy company; spiritual talk
shakti: power; energy
siddhi: attainment; supernatural powers

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Tai Chi: supreme ultimate (Chinese)
tantra: rule; ritual; scripture; often used to denote "sacred
sexuality"
tapas: austerity
Vedanta: end of the Vedas; end of knowledge
Yoga: union; a process leading to oneness
Zen: meditation (Japanese)
Zazen: sitting meditation (Japanese)

Glossary Sources:
Godman, David, ed. Be As You Are: The Teachings of Sri Ramana
Maharshi. London: Penguin Books, 1992.
Grimes, John. A Concise Dictionary of Indian Philosophy: Sanskrit
Terms Defined in English. Albany: State University of New
York, 1996.
Nisargadatta Maharaj. I Am That. Durham: The Acorn Press, 1973.
Ramana Maharshi. Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi (Ninth
Edition). Tiruvannamalai: Sri Ramanasramam, 1996.
Seung Sahn. The Compass of Zen. Boston: Shambhala
Publications, Inc., 1997.

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