DCNH Hangout #12 Transcript

Transcript of Ben Vaserlan's Hangout with Victor Gulenko.

• Why we actually need Subtypes :

• In the 90s when Gulenko was conducting practical diagnosis, substantial differences
were noted between single types. Differences have quite a big influence on how
someone behaves in a group and the degrees of compatibility with their dual. Personal
Development takes whole life.
• If there are 2 people of the same type, choosing the criterion which differentiates them.

• Assessing the compatibility of people : To find similar points of interest. When

Socionics was a baby, many specialists noted that not all duals get on well, and DCNH
explains this.
• Next task : To assess personal change. Finding the direction of the change and the costs.

• Last task (quite important) : Stability of small groups—predicting it.

• In order to understand how these subtypes formed—introducing the ‘Core Shell' concept.

• Core Shell Concept : The psyche of a person, which is a complex system, has an unchangeable
and firm core surrounded by a soft and changeable shell.
• Subtype of a personality is at the junction between the Core and the Shell of a person’s psyche.
On one hand, subtype is quite stable but susceptible to change. However, to change it, you need
to have a certain things to happen (environmental catalysts). Main 2 factors for subtype change :
• Strong pressure from the outside environment.

• Strong Inner Motivation to change in a certain direction.

• If both these factors present and person at a critical point of life development (usually a personal
crisis) might change the subtype.
• Personality : Changeable and Stable. Both described in terms of a person’s type.

• Stable type is inborn.

• Changeable : Functional, dynamic type. Secondary to Stable type. This is actually the
subtype.
• Ascertaining the sufficient no. of subtypes : Starting from the fact that the small group we are
involved in consists of mainly 3-4 people—4 subtypes makes sense, feasibly.
• Experimental way to yield subtype : Gather a small group of 4 people. Give them a task of
evolving complexity and see how they deal with it.
• DCNH describes behavioural patterns of people within a small group. Also useful for describing
complex situations.
• Short definition : DNCH is a structural functional model for analysis and forecasting complex
communicative systems.
• In other words : A matrix according to which the stable systems where the feedback
mechanisms are assembled.
• Any system which has lost its elements (stability) will strive to return to its full DCNH form.

• Vaserlan’s DCNH Sheet. Accentuated functions correspond to the older 2006 model.

• The DCNH system is viewed using 2 methods (which still supplement each other):

• First Method : Distance, Order, Connection.

• Distance :

• Contact/Distance Dichotomy. Most vividly expressed in a stressful situation,

especially in certain dangerous ones.
• The Contact type will see to a completely opposite way of reacting to
danger—will not try to get away from danger. On the contrary—will stay
in place or even come closer to danger.
• The Distant type will behave in an opposite way—trying to get away as
much as possible from danger.
• From the studies of scientists (psychophysiology), we know that
there are two main kinds of stress hormones—adrenaline and
noradrenaline or norepinephrine and in the situations of very
heavy stress, the ratio of these two hormones in the blood of the
two subtypes (Contact/Distance), will be different.
• Adrenaline the hormone of fear—prevails in the blood of the
Distant types (stress).
• Contact type : prevalent hormone is noradrenaline although it is
released together with adrenaline in a situation of fear and stress.
Still, it (noradrenaline) prevails, explaining the active fraction of
the Contact type towards the source of fear and stress.
• These dichotomies for different subtypes can be measured scientifically—
chemically. These are, therefore, objective, unlike the usual dichotomies.
• Terminating/Initiating Dichotomy:

• Just like the previous one, more visible in siuations of elevated workloads
and/or stress.
 • The dichotomy shows the distribution of workload in time.

• The Initial types very quickly start a new task but find it hard to finish the
whole process.
• The Initial Type withstand a very heavy psychological or even physical
stress. However, not for a very long period of time.
• Terminating type : opposite way. Harder to switch to a new activity but
cannot stop until they’ve finished it.
• These parameters can also be measured scientifically. We can see this in
sports—sports medicine. In this field, there is an experimentally proven
distinction in sportsmen. The sprinter type and the stayer types.
• Sprinter types are the people of impulse—can sustain heavy strain
for a short time. Initial types.
• Stayer types, on the contrary are much more durable and very
good in the task of a more lasting distribution of their power.
Terminating type.
• The Intiating/Terminating dichotomy has one more interesting
expression :
• Order:

• Initiating types more likely to break the order : types of freedom.

Especially vividly seen in the Creative subtypes. However, the
Creative subtypes are the most disorderly people. On the contrary,
the subtype best at keeping the order is the Normalising subtype.
The Dominant subtype will be demanding and expects order from
people around him.
• Connecting/Ignoring Dichotomy: deals with:

• Connection. Tightness of the connection of a person with the surrounding

environment.
• Connecting Types more sensitive to the sensitive environment, have
more expressed reactions to feedback signals.
• Ignoring Types have very little sensitivity to the environment.

• Comparatively, Ignoring Types tend to ignore their surrounding signals.

• For instance, the Normalising type (ignoring) highly esteems

orders and rules but tends to not notice the reactions of other
people.
 • The most Connecting subtype—H-subtype feels very strongly
about what is happening around and cannot but react to it. If this
subtype feels that the surrounding is not in harmony, he will be
feeling the most stressful.
• Vaserlan : This change to a different subtype, does it start off with someone being
in a shift? What’s the relation between shift and subtype formation?
• Gulenko : So in this situation when a person appears to be in a social
environment which is not a good setting for his desired activities—take for
example the INTP when he is involved in a humanitarian environment. Therapy?
is achieved into the direction of Emotions (Fe) or the Intuition of Potential (Ne).
Both of these functions correspond with the Creative subtype, meaning that the
shift takes place towards the humanitarian environment, taking formation of the
Creative subtype. For another example, when the INTP appears in an
environment of Management structure. In this situation, more energy directed
into practical professional logic. This will come off as the INTP shifting himself
to become more like an administrator type and provokes the formation of the
Dominant subtype. Summarising, a shift is the first thing that happens in the
process of changing the subtype but again, the necessary factors—strong inner
motivation and social pressure that makes this change firm and stable.
• Second method describing the subtype-formation :

• According to this method, stable strengthening of 2-3 functions (not less than 2)
takes place.
• For instance, the Creative one is formed in the following way:

• This subtype is formed when Ne and Fe start working expressively together.

Strengthening of these functions makes these people creative. Right-brained
functions (creativity). These pair of functions can also be complemented with Se.
This is why Se is also strengthened, the representatives of the Creative subtype
associated with a complicated character—more prone to creating conflicts.
• On the contrary, the left-brained functions—Normalising Subtype. Consider a
situation with 2 people (short distance)—Creative (disorderly) and Normalising
(for whom chaos is a catastrophe), how shall they get along? Even if duals, they
will have quite a hard time coexisting.
• Creative subtype—most right-brained.

• Normalising subtype—most left-brained.

• Other two : between these two—intermediate subtypes.

• Creative Subype : Ne and Fe. Additional : Se.

 • Normalising Subtype : Ti and Si. Additional : Fi.

• Harmonising Subtype : Ni and Fi. Additional : Si.

• Dominant Subtype : Te and Se. Additional : Fe (not simply a leader but a

charismatic leader). Practical Leadership—most important focus (since different
types of leadership : Emotional Leadership. Here, the Dominant subtype has real
authority and can direct people in a complicated situation).
• Situations where as a result of social pressure directed to a person towards a shift due to which a
person acquires a role in a small group & small social environment and starts acting according
to it.
• Example : experiment conducted a year ago showing the way to study the subtypes
according to the DCNH system. Spring 2015. Two groups (3 people/group) competing
against each other.
• First group (3 girls, Te strengthened).

• Second group (3 girls, Se strengthened). 4 tasks assessing physical, emotional

responses as well as a group of experts assigned with the task of finding the
winner in the end.
• The experiment lasted for 4 hours.

• The second group won.

• This reflected what the theory said, that the Se group was predicted to win.
Reason : an advantage in these different tasks to the group that can produce more
energy—Se more than Te.
• Chief Q&A session :

• Vaserlan : If an INFP has accentuated Ni, will they have ambiguous feelings about the ESTP?

• Gulenko : Quite a complicated situation since there’s a third layer. If an INFP has a
clearly accentuated Ni, doesn’t mean they’re a Harmonising Subtype. If indeed a
Harmonising subtype and there’s a shift towards Ni as well as Fi, the person may behave
and indeed look like an INFJ—there will be some misunderstanding with the ESTP.
• Vaserlan : With the Left-Right handers, Dario used to have a rule—wouldn’t measure the brains
of lefties because half of their brains were very idiosyncratic, said they have very different
brains—in terms of which functions were active for certain functions. He recently relented, and
will now analyse the lefties.
• Gulenko : it isn’t physically possible to conduct the experiment with Nardi because this
requires the involvement of specific instruments. However, the studies in the
psychological field give the possibility to make the correlation of the left-right active
 part of the brain with the more or less Creative expressions in the person so as it was
described before the Creative-Normalising subtypes.
• Vaserlan : What about the INFJ with accentuated Ne? Can they look like an INFP?

• Gulenko : The confusion is unlikely. Shift towards Ne would look more Extraverted—
ENFJ/ENFP type. This quite often happens when an Introverted type has an Extraverted
subtype—making him Ambiverted (Vaserlan shocked that VG ‘believes in that term’).
• On INFJ scoring higher on Ne (Nardi’s test) :

• Maria : Error due to wishful thinking, what one thinks they’re good at, may manifest in
tests, leading to wrongful self-evalution. I don't trust tests too much.
• Gulenko : The psyche of a person develops and changes all the time. There’s a possibility that
the differences between the subtypes will, in the future, develop and evolve so much at a certain
point of time that they will yield different subtypes.
• Olena (chief translator) : By the way, it’s not the first time I’ve heard about this subtype
evolution probably to a whole number of different subtypes as far as I can see that
different Socionics scientists share this theory. That those differences evolve and become
larger, cause changes in the psyche.
• Vaserlan : Because the control function (Ignoring) is implementation, can an INFJ with control
Ne be very good at things such as trans-contextual thinking, creative thinking usually associated
with Ne ego types? Maybe the INFJ with accentuated Ne could display those characteristics but
not actually act in those possibilities, how would that look like—if they had strong Ne?
• Gulenko : Depends not only on subtype but also the environment. Smaller environment,
creative role and possibilities to act—everything in place and will function as predicted
by the subtype system. The Creative subtype of INFJ has a name : Exciting/Marvelling
INFJ : bewitched/marvelled by everything marvellous happening and capable of actions
that can marvel others.
• Vaserlan : What are the 3 functions usually accentuated? Different from 2006 paper because it
has new implementations.
• Older 2006 model.

• Gulenko : Differences because all those things gathered weren’t noticed and detected
during numerous consultations and diagnoses of different people. For instance, during
conducting the Socionics diagnosis where all subtypes of the Lyric type were detected—
concerning the previous question—accentuated for Creative was, in addition to Ne and
Fe, third one that might be strengthened is Se.
• Vaserlan : Right, so that’s why Victor mentioned my accentuated Fe.

• Gulenko : For those people watching Hangouts later might get an expression of
you being quite an emotional, Extraverted personality.
 • Vaserlan : Oh, the little they know.

• Maria : Control function usually the best during brainstorming because that’s where mirage shift
is taking place. Usually, my Ne is usually the best when I research a paper for myself.
• Gulenko : Control is informative in a big way and usually a person in the direction of
this function has obsessive thoughts that he cannot fight. However, cannot exclude them
at all from his mind.
• Discussed example. First one given by Olena : Fi : indeed works by producing a number
of obsessive thoughts and at the same time, a feeling of a lack of control—others vs my
own Fi, noticing that I’m not that skilful so I cannot stop thinking about it.
• Second example (given by Gulenko) : Inspector : Ti as the first : Control Te as the
ignoring, thinking about different structures and at the same time, the practical use of
their theories and ideas, cannot stop thinking about how to put these in practice.
• Vaserlan : Yes, trying to think about the most practical abstract thing they can
learn.
• Next DCNH hangout : A detailed comparison of the 4 types.

• Gulenko has written 4 booklets (segregation by Quadra)—with descriptions of each subtype of

each of the 16 types (total: 64 variant types). Had previously proposed to take a look at 4
subtypes. May be a good idea to look at the subtypes of ENFJ because they are very vivid and
expressive—easily observed and assessed for subtype-research purposes.
• Vaserlan : Beneficiary shift of INFJ to INTP, what does that look like?

• Gulenko : From what has been studied, a more productive shift would be from INFJ to a
more scientific field which gives us the ILE (ENTP).
• Maria : In agreement with what I said. The Beneficiary shift is more about self-
perception—the role a person wants to play and that’s how he perceives himself
but it’s not something really productive, it’s more of a style rather than essence.
• Victor’s last words from the Hangout (actually in English) : It is better we finish now (smiling).

Gulenko's updated DCNH article

I'll briefly explain DCHN:

Subtypes are a second layer of personality that's capable of slow changes to adapt to the environment.
They work the same way as your type only on the Social instead if Intellectual level. For example your
type could be ENTP while your subtype is INFJ. What this means is that internally the way you process
information and view the world is described the the functional model of an ENTP. But the role you fit
in society is primarily determined by Ni then Fi and the rest of the INFJ functional model. You will
always be an ENTP but you might eventually learn to approach society according to a different
functional profile instead of INFJ.
The subtypes are categorized by temperament: EJ = D, IJ = H, IP = N, EP = C. This is no different than
the temperament classification of regular types. So the "H subtype" is actually a category composed of
4 subtypes: ISFJ, INFJ, INTJ, ISTJ.
Gulenko claims his selection of Temperament as the primary classification criteria is not arbitrary and
that there's something fundamental about temperament not shared by most other quadriotomies.
Temperament: the primary determinant of the way a person gains and uses energy, the primary element
of compatibility in intertype relations, the principle behind psychological suppression and
compassionate, and hypothesized to occur first (chronologically) in the process of differentiation. Even
before subtypes Gulenko has given Temperaments more attention than any other small-groups.
There's a mistaken impression going around that there's some ambiguity regarding the function
composition of the subtypes or that Gulenko keeps changing his mind about it. In fact the functional
profile of a subtype is organized the same way as the functional profile of the analogous type (e.g. the
Model G of the INFJ subtype is the same as the Model G of the INFJ type). Most of his work and
experiments on subtypes are instead focused on justifying his elevation of Temperaments above the
other quadriotomies.
When someone asks "What are the strongest functions of the Harmonizing subtype" the correct answer
is not "Ni and Si"! None of the IJ types have Ni and Si as their strongest functions, such a thing is
impossible. The right answer of course depends on which IJ we're dealing with. Gulenko gives us an
example for each temperament. Let's say our Harmonizer is an INFJ subtype. Then the two strongest
functions are Ni and Fi: the Dominant and the Creative (using Model G terms, Demonstrative in model
A). So far nothing surprising, we already know the Dominant and the Creative are the two strongest
functions of a type and the most visible from outside.
The next bit is what Gulenko considers an exciting discovery: the third most visible funtion is the Role
funtion. He predicted this with Model G a long time ago with Management, Creative and Role being
labeled 1, 2 and 3 but while the first two where uncontroversial in socionics Role was not traditionally
seen that way. He claims his experiments have proven that the Role funtion is close to the Creative in
visibility and even, potentiality, strength because it's the easiest to train. This is important for him
because it supports his decision to place Temperament at the center of a person's type and subtype.
From /u/reLight's transcript:
Vaserlan : What are the 3 functions usually accentuated? Different from 2006 paper because
it has new implementations. Gulenko : Differences because all those things gathered
weren’t noticed and detected during numerous consultations and diagnoses of different
people. For instance, during conducting the Socionics diagnosis where all subtypes of the
Lyric type were detected—concerning the previous question—accentuated for Creative
was, in addition to Ne and Fe, third one that might be strengthened is Se.
We can see here that Vaserlan, like most of us here, has interpreted the new addition to the Creative to
be Fe but Gulneko is actually talking about Se. That's the part he expects the audience to be surprised
about. That's because he understands the subtypes as being the same as the types and it's suprising to
find that two mutually suppressing functions can be simultaneously strong.
If we just use C and EP interchangeably like Gulneko himself does on his website than what Gulenko is
saying makes perfect sense. It's not surprising to say that EPs are defined by Ne or Se but to say some
EPs have strong Ne and Se is. Finding EPs with strong Ne and Fe though is not surprising.
Let's look at how subtype is formed for a bit:
The two "methods" mentioned in the first transcript are more like stages: the first stage is the internal
motivation here a subtype is selected, this is the ideal position you seek in your current stage of life. It's
decided according to your current preference for those 3 dichotomies. It can be thought of as self-
ideation you target image for self-actualization. At this stage slight Accentuations start developing in
the two functions representative of the temperament. For the INFJ subtype example, the person now
has Ni and Si accentuation of similar strenght mirroring ecah other (at this point the person is a
different subtype from INFJ but they want to make a change towards being a Harmonizer). The
mirrored accentuation of both functions in a temperament is what distinguishes a normal accentuation
that can become a subtype from a pathological one.
Before we talk about the second stage we need to understand profiles. A "Profile" is a layer of
personality same as the Type and the Subtype. Your profile is determined by which functions you are
currently in the process of strengthening. Strengthening a funtion means literally training it. Your
profile is determined by your environment. You join the army: you now have an ESTP profile: you're
strengthening Se and Te. You leave the army and join a philosophy club: you're now strengthening Ni
and Fi so you have an an INFJ profile. You haven't lost the skills you gained in the army but Profile is
determined not by strength but by on-going strengthening. A change in environment produces a change
in profile only if you decide to actively engage and train the functions required for success in that
sphere. Say our example person enters a new stage of their life: they decide they had enough soul
searching so they quit the philosophy club, get married and a job as a restaurant manager. Their job
requires Fe and Se: an ESFJ profile. But that's not the profile our person assumes: they are disengaged
and uninterested in their job because they are distracted by their marriage. Their spouse has suffered a
accident and they need an emotionally sensitive person and a good listener but more then anything a
person who can physically take care of them. Our person decides to prioritize this more than the job at
the restaurant so they are strengthening Si and Fi: ISFJ profile. Their marriage will last, the job
probably won't.
It's important not to confuse subtype and profile. All layers influence each other but you can have any
combination if Type, Subtype and Profile. Through that whole story our character was likely the same
subtype (probably a Normalizer). Gulenko tries to make sure we don't mistakenly thing strengthened
functions are what creates a subtype (first video, responding to one of Vaseran's questions):
There's a third layer in personality the layer of strengthened functions. Just because a
Humanist has a strengthened Ni function this does not mean they are a Harmonizing
subtype.
Now we can explain the Second Stage of a subtype shift. This stage occurs when a person's profile
matches their internal motivations. If the future subtype will be Harmonizing the person needs to
decide between Ni and Si. If we take the Normalizer in the previous example and assume he had an
internal wish to become an Harmonizer then joining the philosophy club would have achieved this
switch. At this point the accentuation become externally visible with the Ni accentuation taking a
positive meaning and the Si one a Negative meaning. The person becomes inflexible in maters of Pi
both trying to promote Ni whether it belongs or not and to remove Si. This particular formation can be
seen in many famous philosophers and religious figures: a distaste for the body and anything associated
with it and an elevation of the "purely mental" above the mundane and the material.
Next comes deciding on the Creative funtion (or n other words the sign of the main Accentuation). For
our example person this will depend on the aprocahof his philosophy club, this one is more
Humanitarian than Analytic so he strengthens Fi and since he's in the process of a subtype shift an
accentuation follows: he start forming strong opinions on morality, his flexibility in this area decreases.
The Si accentuation, now neglected falls in the third place. It starts behaving like a role funtion: only
working when needed and disappearing the rest of the time. If it's neglected for two long the subtype
becomes maladaptive and pathological. The spouse's accident proves a fortunate accident for our
protagonist's psyche and it forces him to strengthen his Si and remain balanced. This is the key to
succeeding at the goals of your subtype. If this situation occurred before joining the philosophy club he
might have become an ISFJ subtype.
Gulenko gives some similar examples: doing therapy can necessitate an ENFP profile, this can turn in
to a subtype if the person already has an internal motivation to be Creative. Having a job with
administrative responsibilities requires an ESTJ profile, this can turn in to an ESTJ subtype if the
person already wanted to be more Dominant.
I hope this clears out most misconceptions.