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Jason Hall Twin Galaxies Declaration

Declaration by Twin Galaxies CEO Jason "Jace" Hall in the Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong defamation suit

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740 views1,032 pages

Jason Hall Twin Galaxies Declaration

Declaration by Twin Galaxies CEO Jason "Jace" Hall in the Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong defamation suit

Uploaded by

Gizmodo Edit

We take content rights seriously. If you suspect this is your content, claim it here.

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1 David A.

Tashroudian [SBN 266718]

Mona Tashroudian [SBN 272387]
2 TASHROUDIAN LAW GROUP, APC
5900 Canoga Ave., Suite 250
3 Woodland Hills, California 91367
Telephone: (818) 561-7381
4 Facsimile: (818) 561-7381
Email: [email protected]
5 [email protected]
6 Attorneys for defendant Twin Galaxies, LLC
7
8 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

9 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

10
11 WILLIAM JAMES MITCHELL, Case No. 19STCV12592

12 Plaintiff, Assigned to: Hon. Gregory W. Alarcon

[Dept. 36]
13 v.
DECLARATION OF JASON HALL ISO
14 SPECIAL MOTION TO STRIKE OF
15 TWIN GALAXIES, LLC; and Does 1-10, DEFENDANT TWIN GALAXIES, LLC
[CCP § 425.16]
16 Defendants.
[Filed concurrently with: (1) Memorandum of
17 Points & Authorities; (2) Declaration of David
A. Tashroudian; (3) Request for Judicial
18 Notice; and (4) [Proposed] Order]
19
Hearing
20 Date: July 6, 2020
Time: 8:30 a.m.
21 Place: Department 36
22 RESERVATION ID: 095658146502
23
Action Filed: 4/11/2019
24
25
26
27
28
1
DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL

2 I, Jason Hall, declare that:

3 1. I am an individual over the age of 18 and I make this declaration in support of the

4 special motion to strike of Twin Galaxies, LLC (“Twin Galaxies”) to the complaint for defamation

5 of William James Mitchell (“Billy Mitchell”). I make this declaration based on facts known to me

6 personally to be true, and if called as a witness to testify to them, I could and would do so.

7 2. I am the Head Custodian of Records for Twin Galaxies, and have held that position

8 since I purchased the organization from Walter Day in 2014. In my position as Head Custodian

9 of Records, I am responsible for maintaining the integrity of all scores that appear on Twin

10 Galaxies records of video game achievements. I am also the head administrator of Twin Galaxies

11 and have access to all metrics regarding users, submissions, scores, forum posts, and other

12 information generated by the Twin Galaxies Website – defined below. I am the person most

13 knowledgeable about all of Twin Galaxies’ current business practices, and all of the website’s

14 functions as well. As the Head Custodian of Records, I make the final determination as to the

15 validity of any dispute claim related to an existing score which appears on any of the Twin

16 Galaxies video game score leaderboards.

17 THE TWIN GALAXIES PUBLIC WEBSITE FORUMS & SCORE LEADERBOARDS

18 3. Twin Galaxies operates a web site at the address: www.twingalaxies.com (the

19 “Twin Galaxies Website”). The Twin Galaxies Website is a comprehensive social platform that

20 facilitates a competitive community and provides official structure and parameters to video game

21 playing achievement across all electronic gaming platforms. It is where competitive video game

22 rules are officially set, player performances are objectively measured and adjudicated, and the

23 statistical data of official records and rankings are logged, maintained, updated and made publicly

24 available.

25 4. The Twin Galaxies Website provides a public forum for members of the public to

26 discuss all things related to video games, including video game industry news, video game scores

27 and score performances. Any user is allowed to start a new discussion “thread” in a forum related

28 to a variety of video game related topics. All threads and forums are available for the general
2 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 public to view. That is, anyone with access to the Internet and who navigates to the Twin Galaxies

2 website is able to view all forums and threads on the site. The general public can, and is

3 encouraged to, join the discussion on the forums and threads by registering as a user and posting

4 their comments.

5 5. The Twin Galaxies Website publishes leaderboards for thousands of video game

6 titles across dozens of video game platforms, including but not limited the personal computer,

7 Arcade, Sony PlayStation consoles, Microsoft Xbox consoles, Nintendo consoles, emulation

8 platforms such as M.A.M.E (Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator) and a variety of other video

9 gaming platforms. The leaderboards recognize video game achievements for various aspects of

10 the video game such as high score, or fastest time, and ranks players according to their verified

11 achievements in those categories.

12 6. As an example, the Twin Galaxies Website publishes leaderboards for the Donkey

13 Kong video game on multiple platforms which include Arcade, and M.A.M.E. There is a

14 leaderboard for most points scored in the Donkey Kong video game on the Arcade platform; while

15 there is another completely separate leaderboard for the most points scored in the Donkey Kong

16 video game on the M.A.M.E platform. Although both high score point achievements relate to the

17 same game, the fact that they were achieved on a different platform means that the scores are

18 recorded different leaderboards.

19 7. The records and rankings of video game achievement that appear on the Twin

20 Galaxies Website leaderboards for a particular game have been historically recognized world-wide

21 as the official records of achievement in that video games. Many records and rankings appearing

22 and recognized on the Twin Galaxies Website leaderboards have been used by Guinness World

23 Records in several Guinness World Records Gamer's Edition books, and continue to be recognized

24 as world records by the Guinness organization and others.

25 SCORE SUBMISSION PROCESS

26 8. Any verified user of the Twin Galaxies Website is allowed to submit a recorded

27 video game performance for inclusion on a particular video game’s leaderboard. However, every

28 submission must comport with that video game’s leaderboard track rules. The track rules set forth
3 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 the game settings and parameters that must be observed for the score to be recognized. The track

2 rules make sure that all achievement submissions are performed on an equal basis – that is,

3 following the rules allows Twin Galaxies to ensure that everyone is playing on an equal footing.

4 For example, the Donkey Kong Arcade leaderboard has a specific set of track rules as follows:

5 “Dip-Switch Bank: 1-7 = OFF; 8 = ON/OFF [Upright/Cocktail]; Number of Jumpman: 3; Score

6 Level for Extra Jumpman: 7,000 Points.” The rules also require that the submitted performance

7 be on an original, unmodified Donkey Kong Arcade system with original printed circuit board.

8 The Donkey King M.A.M.E leader board has a different set of track rules as follows: “ROMSet:

9 DKong; Lives: 3; Bonus life: 7000; Special Rules: None.” Any variation from a game’s track

10 rules is grounds for disqualification of a score or submission.

11 9. Once a verified user submits a recorded video game performance for inclusion onto

12 a leaderboard, it is placed in a forum for the community of users registered on the Twin Galaxies

13 Website to adjudicate and vote on the veracity of the performance. The Twin Galaxies Website

14 utilizes a one-of-a-kind, highly controlled, blind system of peer review to adjudicate scores. The

15 peer review is conducted by other registered members of the Twin Galaxies Website who are

16 known as adjudicators. The adjudicators are members of the public and not employees or otherwise

17 compensated by Twin Galaxies. When voting on the submission, the adjudicators are asked one

18 question: Based on the evidence provided, do they believe a score claim is valid? Yes or No.

19 Adjudicators do not know when a voting period will end. Adjudicators do not know exactly how

20 many people voted, adjudicators do not know how many votes it will take to close a vote.

21 Adjudicators have no control over the adjudication process; they merely vote.

22 10. If a score submission passes the peer review process, the achievement is placed on

23 the leaderboard, and is presumed valid.

24 SCORE CLAIM DISPUTE PROCESS

25 11. The Twin Galaxies Website provides a process to dispute the veracity of a verified

26 score appearing on a leaderboard. Next to every score performance record on a leaderboard is a

27 button that allows a registered user with a minimum credibility rating to dispute the score

28 performance and achievement claim.

4 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 12. Once a score dispute claim is submitted, it is placed into a public dispute voting

2 forum where the gaming community will publicly discuss, debate and vote on the veracity of the

3 claim and present evidence which is supplied by the public or the one making the dispute claim.

4 The public dispute claim forum is the evidentiary record from which the score dispute is decided

5 by the Twin Galaxies Website administrator. This public process is designed for transparency and

6 accessibility. All registered Twin Galaxies Website members can participate in the process of

7 providing evidence and discussion that is for or against the dispute claim's assertions. The public

8 can too, so long as they register to post on the site.

9 13. A dispute claim remains open until it accumulates enough supportive votes to

10 trigger a score removal recommendation. When a score removal recommendation is triggered, a

11 Twin Galaxies Website administrator is notified and will review all of the presented dispute claim

12 evidence and the comments in the public forum supporting, or disagreeing with, the dispute claim.

13 If after reviewing the evidence, the Twin Galaxies Website administrator agrees with the

14 community’s removal recommendation, the disputed score will be removed.

15 14. If, however, after reviewing the evidence, the Twin Galaxies Website administrator

16 does not agree with the community removal recommendation, the disputed score will not be

17 removed, and the disputed claim will be placed into inactive status while simultaneously remaining

18 open to allow it to continue to gather additional evidence and further votes until it triggers another

19 score removal recommendation event.

20 15. The disputed claim voting / review process may continue to escalate indefinitely

21 until a claim becomes compelling enough for the Twin Galaxies Website administrator to agree

22 and remove the score. Every dispute claim is handled uniquely, on a case-by-case basis, and driven

23 by the community review process.

24 16. Only evidence that is specifically provided and documented within the public

25 dispute claim discussion thread will be considered toward any decision.

26 17. Twin Galaxies' default position is that all of its stored adjudicated performance

27 record data has already been proven valid, and does not need to be re-proven. Therefore, the onus

28
5 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 is on the dispute claim submitter to definitively and objectively prove the invalidity of any Twin

2 Galaxies adjudicated performance record in order to have that record removed.

3 18. Twin Galaxies, as part of a comprehensive process and in its position of authority,

4 must ensure due diligence. The public documentation of our processes and conclusions are

5 intended to satisfy scrutiny for the long term. So in instances where warranted, Twin Galaxies’

6 comprehensiveness must go above and beyond what would normally satisfy the public. This means

7 that the dispute claim process can be lengthy.

8 19. The dispute claim process, and rules and procedures for disputes, appear on the

9 Twin Galaxies Website at: https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Policy:The-

10 Dispute-Process-Guidelines-and-How-To-Submit-a-Dispute-Claim.

11 DISPUTE CLAIM RELATING TO THE BILLY MITCHELL DONKEY KONG SCORES

12 20. On, or about, August 28, 2017, Twin Galaxies Website registered user Jeremy

13 Young, under the pseudonym Xelnia, submitted a dispute claim whereby he disputed Billy

14 Mitchell’s 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and

15 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores (the “Disputed Score Performances”) which had previously

16 appeared on the Donkey Kong video game points (with hammer allowed) leaderboard for the

17 Arcade platform.

18 21. The dispute claim was published on a public forum accessible to anyone on the

19 Twin Galaxies Website on or about August 28, 2017 (the “Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread”).

20 The Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread can be accessed at the following web address:

21 https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-

22 Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800.

23 22. For ease of reference, I am attaching to this declaration as Exhibit A a true and

24 correct copy of the entirety of the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread. This exhibit encompasses

25 all of the comments from Twin Galaxies Website users who submitted evidence or other

26 commentary in connection with the score dispute from the time the dispute claim was started on

27 August 28, 2017 through the time it was printed on March 13, 2020 and it remains publicly

28 accessible. This exhibit was created in the regular course of Twin Galaxies’ business. That is,
6 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 whenever a dispute claim is started, it along with all comments posted within that dispute claim

2 forum and thread, are recorded on Twin Galaxies Website servers for presentation on the Internet

3 and for posterity. I was able to extract that information in a document format as presented in this

4 exhibit. Each of the comments that appear on this exhibit were recorded in this writing at the time

5 they were posted in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread. The source of the information has

6 not been altered in any manner, and thus the information contained in this exhibit is the same

7 information that would be accessed by navigating to the link provided to the Mitchell Score

8 Dispute Claim Thread in the preceding paragraph. The only difference between the information

9 contained in this exhibit, and that appearing on the Twin Galaxies Website, is that any video,

10 pictures, or other media which appears on the Twin Galaxies Website does not appear in this

11 exhibit. However, all text comments between the two sources are identical.

12 23. In connection with drafting this declaration, I had the Twin Galaxies Website

13 engineers prepare a statistical analysis of the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread. The statistical

14 analysis revealed that as of March 14, 2020: (1) Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread was viewed

15 on the Twin Galaxies Website 2,394,329 times; (2) there were 170 unique contributors who

16 commented in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread; (3) there were 211 users who voted to

17 adjudicate the score dispute (198 agreeing with the dispute, and 13 disagreeing); and, (4) there

18 were 3,770 content entries in the evidentiary record which comprise the entirety of the Mitchell

19 Score Dispute Claim Thread.

20 24. The substance of the dispute claim made by Jeremy Young is that Billy Mitchell’s

21 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the

22 Boomers score) scores were not created on an original Donkey Kong Arcade platform system, but

23 that they were instead created on an emulation platform such as the M.A.M.E. platform system,

24 and they were therefore ineligible for inclusion on the Donkey Kong video game points (with

25 hammer allowed) leaderboard for the Arcade platform. Jeremy Young contended that the

26 performances that were recorded onto video tape and submitted to Twin Galaxies as evidentiary

27 proof of his Donkey Kong accomplishment, could not have been produced by an unmodified

28 original Donkey Kong Arcade system. The dispute claim contended that the images and other
7 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 artifacts that were recorded and being displayed in the video tapes that Twin Galaxies referees

2 used to verify and authenticate Billy Mitchell’s 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200

3 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores could not have originated

4 from an unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade system.

5 25. The rationale for Jeremy Young’s dispute claim was based on purely objective

6 technical, scientific evidence. There was and is no subjectivity to the claim. Jeremy Young’s

7 assertion was completely testable and measurable to an absolute definitive conclusion. His

8 technical presentation can be found in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread at posts numbers

9 186 and 187 dated February 2, 2018, at the following web address:

10 https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-

11 Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-

12 800?p=946633&viewfull=1#post946633. The presented evidence comprehensively demonstrated

13 that it was technologically impossible for the videotaped performances that were used to verify

14 and adjudicate Billy Mitchell’s 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage

15 Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores to have originated from an unmodified

16 original Donkey Kong Arcade system.

17 26. It is an absolute Twin Galaxies requirement that all Donkey Kong Arcade platform

18 performances adhere to a specific ruleset to be considered valid. One of the primary rules is that

19 unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade hardware be used. The very specific and detailed

20 ruleset can be found here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/168098-Twin-

21 Galaxies-Donkey-Kong-(Arcade)-Recording-Rules.

22 27. After Jeremy Young made his technical presentation, public interest and discussion

23 on the matter escalated further, and on February 2, 2018, Twin Galaxies administration made a

24 public statement in the dispute claim file that it would be impartially reviewing and verifying the

25 technological assertions in the dispute claim: “To clarify, time will be needed for Twin Galaxies

26 to fully-review this evidence. We will do this thoroughly and impartially. In the meantime we will

27 continue to observe this discussion by experts in our community.”

28 ///
8 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 INVESTIGATION OF THE JEREMY YOUNG DISPUTE CLAIM

2 28. Upon receiving this claim, and all of the technical and scientific evidence provided

3 along with it, Twin Galaxies independently embarked to verify and duplicate the science and

4 claims that Jeremy Young provided. The process of verifying Jeremy’s Young’s specific technical

5 claims took more than 2 months. It is important to understand that as we were working to verify

6 Jeremy Young’s claims, the public kept supplying additional evidence to the dispute file that also

7 needed to be looked at and verified.

8 29. The person who assisted Billy Mitchell in the recording of his score performances,

9 Robert Childs, placed an evidentiary contribution to the public dispute thread, describing exactly

10 what he did to “record” the performances. Robert Childs’ contribution to the Mitchell Score

11 Dispute Thread was made on February 11, 2018 and appears as thread post number 946. Childs’

12 post can be found at this web address: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-

13 Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-

14 Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=949192&viewfull=1#post949192.

15 30. Childs indicated that the Billy Mitchell’s performances were recorded to a VCR

16 tape with a direct feed device, meaning that a video camera was not pointed at an Arcade machine

17 to record the performance. In order to accomplish this type of recording, a person must access the

18 printed circuit board (“PCB”) inside an original Donkey Kong Arcade system and connect a

19 special device known as a converter board that splits the signal so that a direct feed can be sent to

20 a recording device.

21 31. Twin Galaxies found the exact converter board that Robert Childs claimed to have

22 used to record Billy Mitchell’s score performances. We confirmed with the manufacturer of the

23 board that there has only ever been of one type of board and it was never revised/updated. We

24 purchased two of these converter boards, and we also purchased an unmodified original Donkey

25 Kong Arcade system that contained an original Donkey Kong PCB. We also purchased high-

26 speed video cameras capable of shooting at over 120 frames per second for capture purposes and

27 multiple VCRs. We made these expenditures to determine if we could replicate the images and

28 artifacts identified by Jeremy Young in his dispute claim as not being able to be drawn by an
9 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 original unmodified Donkey Kong Arcade system. Twin Galaxies completely replicated Billy

2 Mitchell’s claimed hardware recording setup in an attempt to produce the signature images seen

3 in Billy Mitchell’s recordings. We were never able to recreate those images and artifacts.

4 32. Twin Galaxies publicly presented its testing setup in the dispute thread with

5 photographs as well as a complete walk through video inclusive of some real time testing on March

6 30, 2018 at dispute thread pos number 2387. The evidentiary post can be found here:

7 https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-

8 Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-

9 800?p=961122&viewfull=1#post961122.

10 33. Twin Galaxies dedicated the following four staff to research the Jeremy Young

11 dispute claim. Jace Hall – (Software Engineer and video game developer credited with more than

12 30 top tier video game titles produced.) I handled the vast majority of the investigative work, while

13 the other Twin Galaxies staff members assisted with set up and then participated in result

14 discussion. Anthony Marin – (Information Technology Specialist.) Helped to set up the various

15 testing configurations, along with myself. He also helped to acquire any needed hardware, cables

16 or software. Todd Roy – (Video production specialist) Helped to set up and capture high speed

17 footage of the Donkey Kong machines as needed during the investigation. Franny Maufras –

18 (Community and Administration support) Went through all the stored video tape archives of TG

19 to find any relevant material needed for comparative or origination.

20 34. Twin Galaxies held a four-plus hour live public discussion stream reviewing and

21 showing Billy Mitchell’s taped performances frame by frame with full and complete transparency.

22 I moderated the public discussion. Throughout the broadcast, Twin Galaxies was fair and unbiased

23 as it discussed Jeremy Young’s claims, and the claims of other contributors to the Mitchell Score

24 Dispute Claim Thread. I clearly stated throughout the broadcast that the review effort is not

25 malicious or representative of anyone’s character.

26 35. Twin Galaxies spent thousands of dollars to adjudicate the claim. The expenditures

27 were in form of equipment purchased, and salaries paid. Twin Galaxies believes that this was the

28 most professionally documented and thoroughly investigated video game score of all time. We are
10 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 currently aware of no other video game score investigation that matches the expense, transparency,

2 and length of investigative time that went into this dispute claim.

3 36. At all times, Twin Galaxies publicly checked and posted its ongoing results against

4 the results of other third-party public results that were being discovered and posted simultaneously

5 in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread. Twin Galaxies also examined results of others for

6 comparative purposes. This was done throughout the dispute claim thread. This was truly a public

7 process. The overall collection of data by the public and the subsequent verification of the data

8 took a total of 7 months from start to finish.

9 INVESTIGATION RESULTS

10 37. After all of Twin Galaxies investigation and testing process had concluded, I, in

11 agreement with the rest of the Twin Galaxies staff involved, determined that Jeremy Young’s

12 dispute claim was valid. This determination was based on (1) a consideration of the public’s

13 comments and investigation as set forth in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread and (2) Twin

14 Galaxies’ inability, and all known 3rd party public investigation’s inability to replicate the image

15 and artifacts appearing in Billy Mitchell’s submitted taped score performances on original,

16 unmodified, Donkey Kong Arcade system and PCB with, or without, a converter board.

17 38. Based on my determination that Jeremy Young’s dispute claim was valid, on April

18 12, 2018, I caused to be posted in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread, the ultimate findings

19 of Twin Galaxies that: “[w]e now believe [Billy Mitchell’s Donkey Kong scores leaderboard

20 scores] are not from an original unmodified DK Arcade PCB, and so our investigation of the tape

21 content ends with that conclusion and assertion.” A true and correct copy of Twin Galaxies’ April

22 12, 2018 statement is attached hereto as Exhibit B, and is incorporated herein by reference. Billy

23 Mitchell’s records of achievement were erased from the Donkey Kong score leaderboard

24 accordingly.

25 ///

26 ///

27 ///

28 ///
11 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 LACK OF MALICE

2 39. Throughout the course of the investigation into Jeremy Young’s claim dispute

3 regarding Billy Mitchell’s Donkey Kong score, I reiterated to the community that the investigation

4 into Jeremy Young’s claim dispute does not reflect on Billy Mitchell’s character, and that the

5 investigation is not malicious. Rather, the investigation was to verify the veracity of the

6 evidentiary content provided with Jeremy Young’ dispute claim submission whose goal was to

7 ensure that only valid scores appear on Twin Galaxies Website leaderboards.

8 40. I personally harbor no animosity or ill will toward Billy Mitchell. I am indifferent

9 one way or another whether his Donkey Kong or other scores appear on the Twin Galaxies Website

10 leaderboards. My only concern is to maintain the integrity of the leaderboards.

11 41. I was in communication with Billy Mitchell during the time Twin Galaxies was

12 investigating Jeremy Young’s dispute claim. In my communications with Mr. Michell, I

13 encouraged him to submit evidence to the public thread for comment and consideration. I also

14 encouraged him to have anyone with evidence on his behalf to contribute to the public discussion

15 for comment and consideration. I encouraged Mr. Mitchell to do so because I wanted to ensure

16 he had a fair opportunity to present his case. At no time did Mr. Mitchell personally comment, or

17 personally present any assistance to Twin Galaxies in support of the validity of his scores in the

18 public Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread.

19 42. On March 12, 2018 an evidentiary entry to the Billy Mitchell Dispute Thread was

20 made by Joel West who announced that Billy Mitchell had formed an independent technical

21 investigation team (self-titled “Team Billy”) to provide evidence in support of the validity of his

22 taped score performances. This announcement is evidentiary entry #1690 in the Billy Mitchell

23 Dispute Thread, found here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-

24 Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-

25 1-062-800?p=955912&viewfull=1#post955912.

26 43. This team was provided direct access to Billy Mitchell’s Arcade and recording

27 equipment and was lead by former Sega technician, Carlos Pinerio. After Twin Galaxies concluded

28 its technical investigation, and was preparing to come to a final decision, “Team Billy”, requested
12 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 that I delay the final decision in the dispute case until Carlos Pinerio had an opportunity to provide

2 his findings to the public evidentiary dispute thread.

3 44. I granted this request, provided all of the time requested without constraint, and

4 carefully reviewed and considered all the evidence provided in Carlos Pinerio’s summary, which

5 contained the statement: “My Conclusion on the 1.047 & 1.050 game tapes is that they were NOT

6 generated from a Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong PCB. The signatures which are normally

7 produced by those PCB's are NOT on the recordings. Repeated testing and viewing of the game

8 on those tapes do not demonstrate the signatures found on recordings coming out of Genuine

9 Nintendo Donkey Kong Arcade boards.”

10 45. “Team Billy’s” evidentiary entry is found as post #2935 in the Billy Mitchell

11 Dispute Thread here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-

12 Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-

13 800?p=963313&viewfull=1#post963313

14 46. After the investigation was completed, and particularly after Twin Galaxies had

15 replicated the setup that Billy Mitchell claimed he used to capture the Donkey Kong score

16 performance, and considering the fact that we were unable to replicate the images and artifacts

17 appearing in the submissions, I had no subjective doubt that the performances did not comport

18 with the rules for submission and inclusion onto the Arcade leaderboard. To be sure, I had no

19 doubt that Billy Mitchell’s Donkey Kong score performances were NOT from an original

20 unmodified Donkey Kong Arcade system and PCB. I still have no subjective doubt that that is

21 the case. We could not replicate the images and artifacts, and we tried. That fact showed me the

22 scores were not from Arcade cabinet, and they were performed on some other system.

23 I swear, under penalty of perjury of the laws of the State of California, that the foregoing

24 is true and correct. Executed this 30th day of March, 2020 at Los Angeles California.

25 /s/ Jason Hall

26
27
28
13 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
EXHIBIT A
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong -

Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell
- Score: 1,062,800
Printable View

08-28-2017, 05:47 PM
xelnia
Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell -
Score: 1,062,800

Exhibit A - 000001
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 1/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Dispute: Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hamm - 1,062,800

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Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1135817 Copy

Exhibit A - 000002
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 2/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Arcade -
Donkey
Kong -
Points
[Hammer
Allowed]
Score Track https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=22
Dip-Switch Bank:
1-7 = OFF
8 = ON/OFF [Upright/Cocktail]

Note: The above Dip Switches, are not only the FACTORY DEFAULT
Rules
settings, but are also the correct Twin Galaxies Tournament Settings for this
title and will provide the following settings:

Number of Jumpman: 3
Score Level for Extra Jumpman: 7,000 Points
Player Name Billy L Mitchell
Original
N/A
Adjudication
Verification
Referee
Method
Verification
2010-07-31
Date
Disputed
1,062,800 (Rank 12)
Score
Disputed By xelnia
This score has been questioned for years in the DK community, so I felt it
was time to create an official dispute. Since I'm not sure how much text can
Dispute
be entered in the Dispute message, the bulk of my post will be in a reply. The
Evidence /
key piece of evidence is the so-called "Board Swap Video":
Rationale
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k

08-28-2017, 05:48 PM
xelnia

For context, Billy supposedly set a new record on Donkey Kong (this 1.06M score) and then
immediately followed that up by setting a new record on Donkey Kong Jr. This occured, and
was claimed to be recorded, at a Boomers park in Florida with witnesses being TG referee
Todd Rogers and Todd's significant-other-but-also-TG-referee MorningDove Mahoney. The
Board Swap Video supposedly shows the downtime between the two records when one of
Billy's friends, Robert Childs, is swapping out the Donkey Kong PCB for the Donkey Kong
Jr. PCB. However, there is no Donkey Kong PCB in the above video. Childs is swapping a
Donkey Kong Jr. PCB for another (or probably the same) Donkey Kong Jr. PCB.

This raises many questions, but here's what stands out in my mind.

Exhibit A - 000003
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 3/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

1) If everything was performed and recorded legitimately, why go through the motions to
record a board swap video using only a DKJR board? And then why mute the video?

2) If the board swap video is a deliberate falsification, created to give the impression that
everything is being done legitimately, then it's not unreasonable to think that other facts
regarding this score may have been falsified.

3) It's been shown that Todd Rogers was anything but an impartial referee with impeccable
integrity during his tenure at TG. Numerous scores supposedly done by him are under
dispute, his history of self-entering scores into the database has been confirmed, and the other
verifying referee during this score attempt was his significant other. In my opinion, any score
verified simply by the word of Todd Rogers has a serious credibility problem.

4) Billy's previous 1M+ scores all had some sort of video evidence. The quality of that
evidence has been questioned, but they at least exist. A 1.014M tape was viewed by Robert
Mruczek but never submitted to TG. Billy's 1.047M and 1.05M are "direct feed"
performances, claimed to be live, but with no actual known witnesses.

5) Billy has never demonstrated live that he capable of the scores that TG gives him credit for.
He has never scored over 1,000,000 in a live, neutral venue.

lord have mercy

08-28-2017, 06:48 PM
Robert.F
how

how can this be possible Billy said at his Announcement At the Big Bang 2010 in Ottumwa
IA; at the International Video Game Hall of Fame
that there was lots of people there when he was playing live . up to a 100 at some point with
cell phones and video,,,,,, https://youtu.be/b7YdkD9Ffvg?t=5m10s

08-28-2017, 06:55 PM
DadsGlasses

Subscribing to this thread.

08-28-2017, 07:00 PM
The Evener

Original board swap video with audio intact for reference:

Exhibit A - 000004
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 4/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_5cuc-ayP0

08-28-2017, 07:04 PM
datagod

I find the evidence presented not very convincing. Sure it raises a few questions, but there is
no solid proof here, just conjecture. I'll hold off my voting of course until more evidence is
presented.

08-28-2017, 07:08 PM
DadsGlasses

In the interview video, Billy states that Todd recorded the entire game. He points to a garbage
bag that supposedly contains the tapes. Just to be clear, are you saying that those tapes were
never reviewed and that the score was based solely on Todd & MorningDove's viewing of the
game? I just want to make sure I'm understanding the Dispute claims. Thanks.

08-28-2017, 07:41 PM
Robert.F

the DK pcb has white text on the pcb and the Dk jr has banana yellow text printed on the
board ,, the DK pcb is 1/2 digital and 1/2 Analog sound and there is a adjustment pot on the
dk pcb for the Analog sound`s, The Dk Jr board is fully digital and has no Analog sound
adjustment pot in the exact same position on the dkjr board, and the 3rd noticeable differences
and you will see; it if you review the video carefully Dk has the same ROM socket lay out
and the same number of sockets as a Dkjr pcb ,, But DKjr has one of them ROM socket
empty ,,,,,, as i pointed out to the man, who is in the video (telling him he was lying), saying
he was pulling out a DK pcb first in the video in the comments; he deleted my comments and
remove the audio and replace it with music ,,, so no one would ever hear him make that clam
of pulling out a DK pcb first,,, but it was to late i recorded the video before he could remove
the audio and cover up his statements,,,, Nixon try this trick deleting 18 mins of tape and look
what happen to him :) i just saying

08-28-2017, 07:55 PM
Robert.F

up to a 100 at some point with cell phones and video,,,,,,

https://youtu.be/b7YdkD9Ffvg?t=5m10s

08-28-2017, 08:05 PM
ruse_sr

Subscribing to thread

08-28-2017, 08:23 PM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 36626

I am sure that the DK community experts will have their say with this one.
Exhibit A - 000005
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 5/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

08-28-2017, 08:49 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

I'm not convinced any thing was put on tape at Boomers. I believe it was added to the
leaderboard based solely on Todd and MorningDove being witnesses. In the video that Robert
F. posted above (Billy Mitchell Makes Announcement), Billy implies that the videos in front
of him are the games he played at Boomers. If that's true, then it raises even more questions.
Those videos appear to be the same type of "direct feed" videos Billy used for his 1.047M and
1.05M scores. There is nothing in the Board Swap video (or the other Boomers videos) to
indicate that any type of direct capture setup is being used. I don't know for sure, but I was
under the impression that this type of recording was banned by TG at one point...before or
after Billy's last submission, I don't know.

08-28-2017, 08:57 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Robert has given permission to post a video he made for Hank Chien and Steve Wiebe
illustrating the problems with the Board Swap Video:

https://youtu.be/Tc8G0gXh5Og

08-28-2017, 09:54 PM
Robert.F
wow

wow i don`t remember making that video that was 7 years ago :)
Exhibit A - 000006
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 6/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

08-29-2017, 12:52 AM
dwwnp

Board Swap video: pretty straightforward... there's no Donkey Kong PCB and there is clear
intent to deceive. That alone is enough to demonstrate the involved parties are willing to be
dishonest. Billy states he doesn't know how to swap PCBs. There's also no obvious recording
equipment.

Billy Mitchell Speaks video: the title is misleading as it suggests the video was taken
"moments" after the DK record had fallen, but DK Jr. is the game in the background and Billy
speaks as though he's already achieved both scores. That's fine. Late in the video I can see
something that looks like a laptop setup next to the cabinet... maybe it's their recording
equipment?

New DK Jr. Record video: Todd, the verifying referee, does not know the final score nor is he
aware it's impossible to score 50 points in DK Jr. Billy has to stare off into space when asked
for the final score, when the much easier method for recalling the score would be to turn
around and look at the monitor, which should/could still have the score displayed. It sure
looks like Billy intentionally blocks the monitor when the cameraman approaches. Both
records are apparently on tape at this point despite the tech who was previously required to
swap PCBs having just arrived on the scene. Perhaps the recording of a direct feed was
previously setup by the tech before he went home to sleep? There's also a Youtube comment
on this video from someone who claims to have been there and never saw Billy break 400K.

Billy Mitchell Makes Announcement video: the first and only public showing of the score in
question. Clearly this is a direct feed recording. Billy claims up to 100 onlookers witnessed
his score.

2013 SDCC video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxGaWi1dFdw): a staged event

wherein Billy claims to have been on WR pace when by pure accident the cord to his DK
machine got pulled. Totally fake, and regardless of its possibly good-natured intent, again
demonstrates Billy's willingness to misrepresent the facts.

1.05 Direct Feed video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI): without access

to the 1.06 tape this video is the only way we can examine any possible improprieties in
Billy's direct feed recording method. There's plenty of oddities in this video, namely the
constant flickering, consistent contrast change that occurs at the end of most levels (after the
rivet boards), and the altogether low skill level on display -- it looks like someone playing at
1.1+ pace who doesn't know how to play at 1.1+ pace and at one point late in the game there's
a death that is inconceivable by 1.1+ standards, meaning an action is taken that would never
ever be taken by a legitimate 1.1 player.

Demonstrating the 1.05 direct feed to be doctored is the only way we'll be able to concretely
prove Billy is a cheater. The other videos, while very suggestive, will never get this score
removed. But even if the 1.05 cannot be proven to have been falsified, at the very least this
1.06 score will forevermore be asterisked. The "No Direct Feed" rule was put in place after
the controversy over this 1.06 score came to light and was instated at the behest of modern
DK players to prevent further shenanigans from Billy.

Further controversy exists around every 1 million score Billy has ever submitted. Be sure to
check out the DKF "Strange Scores" thread for more information:
http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=1610.0

08-29-2017, 02:23 AM
Exhibit A - 000007
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 7/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

dwwnp

And here's the tape from King of Kong, another suspicious direct feed score.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk

08-29-2017, 03:54 AM
The Evener

Xelnia, I am very quickly learning that there is a lot of TG history to catch up on.

I reviewed the messages in the threads you posted - Classic Arcade Gaming (CAGDC), and
Donkey Kong forum as well as the three videos.

The principal interest in this score from the two links you provided seem to pivot on whether
the scores were performed "live" or not. I gather that there was added prestige when making
new records in public (live) venues in front of people watching the game play.

In the video "Billy Mitchell speaks (july,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record,"
DK Jr is plainly visible (albeit very briefly) on the DK cabinet at the 2:01 mark. Title chosen
by uploader is unambiguous, but could have been recorded after DK Jr run and given wrong
title.

Posters at the DK forum and here plainly assert that the alleged DK PCB to DK Jr PCB
"swap" depicted in the "Board Swap" video was DK Jr in both instances.

The videos show that two referees were on-hand to witness these world records, including
Todd Rogers. According to the video, Pete of Twin Galaxies was informed about the feats and
was on his way down to the venue, although it's unclear why since everything seems
"wrapped up" and we're told Todd has the video tapes.

The score was subsequently entered into the TG database as verified by "Referee."

I agree that events depicted in the videos - usually a high point for both the player and those
gamers who gathered around to watch - seem a bit off. In fact, the most celebrated moment -
flaunting your new world record for the camera while it's still on the game screen - isn't done
for either DK or DK Jr records.

Given the suggestion that the videos of these two WRs are direct feeds (notwithstanding
questions about equipment), it makes more sense that these supplementary videos were taken
with the goal of establishing "real time" that the direct feed videos were done in a live venue,
including documenting the high scores - although verbally communicated in each instance
(hence the banter about sleeping in and being late, rushing down to take the video, Pete is on
his way, etc). If so, one could reasonably expect that the videos would also document
elements required by for a TG submission. The TG wall post is 2017, but the requirements
sound like they were written many years ago - at least 2011, I presume before then as well as
documented here:

http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/f...p?topic=3584.0

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...ecording-Rules

Historically, the submission requirements for DK are one of the most strict for any game
tracked by TG, maybe without exception.

Exhibit A - 000008
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 8/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Based on what I've seen, if this was a submission package, it would be rejected on the basis of
the PCB issue alone. But since this is score is already in the database as verified by Referee, I
think that we're now left to examine if the score is plausible by the player in question. At
least, that's my understanding from earlier comments in different dispute threads. For the sake
of argument, what if a player went through the trouble of creating a narrative that they
achieved a high score in a public venue, but actually submitted to a referee a video of a high
score achievement recorded weeks earlier at a private venue? In that scenario, the score
actually "happened," but not according to how the player publicly explained. In reviewing a
subsequent dispute, would we reject the score based on the supplementary videos, or would
we set aside that issue and satisfy ourselves that the score was legitimate from the view that it
was achieved by the player?

08-29-2017, 04:09 AM
pwnasaurus

IBTL.......

08-29-2017, 04:39 AM
The Evener

Okay, based on the discussion in other dispute threads, I overstepped in proposing that our
next task was to view the score as plausible.

Here are some quotes from Jace Hall that are pertinent:

"The fact that you now don't have access to evidence of the score occurring does not mean
that there never was evidence of the score occurring.

The data entry into the Twin Galaxies database suggests that there was evidence at that time.

Only speculation suggests that there wasn't.

Prove that it never took place and that will prove the score guilty.

The fact that you don't have access to proof that it took place does not mean it did not
happen."

08-29-2017, 04:41 AM
Blackflag82

subscribing

08-29-2017, 05:26 AM
Robert.F
the good old boy system out of date

Well i don`t think Billy counted on the good old boy system to be dead at TG. The timing was
perfect (As predicted by Dwayne Richard) just before the open of the video game hall of fame
Billy retakes both records. we or all no strangers to Billy's tricks and his off the shelf VHS
tape`s and sure his library has run out. lets call call episode one last stab at an old trick to
amaze and surprise :) I do believe the scores are legit and were most likely recorded in the
privacy of Billy`s home basement. But Billy has an ego i guess and the temptation to make it
look like he did it live, in wake of all the King Of Kong controversy and Billy own words
laying down the myth scores are done live iv your a real gamer , a vary macho thing :) lol
anyhow there you go , I`m not going to vote Yes or No; one way or another i feel I`m going to
Exhibit A - 000009
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 9/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

get burn for submission points; besides the angry mob of Billy supporter that would probably
like to see me burn at the stake for evening question the man ...... :)

08-29-2017, 05:41 AM
WCopeland

good god almighty

08-29-2017, 06:53 AM
rotunda

Subscribed, this should be an interesting one...

08-29-2017, 07:28 AM
TT

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

good god almighty

+1.

At the time these scores were submitted, and as I understand it, a legitimate verification
method was having a TG referee witness your score live. You didn't have to submit physical
evidence.

TG supplied a referee to adjudicate on the day, he witnessed the scores, and approved them.

Unless someone has a taped "confession" from the referee or player in question stating
unequivocally that the scores were false, there is no case to answer here.

The "evidence" submitted with this thread means absolutely nothing (as odd as the videos
might be).

There is a reason why the old guard at TG is no longer here. There is a reason why much of
the arcade community are no longer here. It's because of threads like this. Sure, if there's a
case to answer, by all means look into it. But posting a video of a guy "not" swapping a board
out is hardly concrete evidence that the scores in this case never occurred.

You cannot apply today's binary video-based ruleset of Twin Galaxies submissions, to the
rules and requirements that were in place in the past. Different times, different submission
requirements - as flaky as they might seem today, that's what they were.

While the present-day TG community is frothing at the mouth at these historical witch hunts,
real arcade enthusiasts are out there playing games, having fun and looking in shaking their
heads. Suddenly everyone is an expert and has an opinion on everything?

Twin Galaxies is not about scores. It's about the games, the community, the history, having
respect for each other and having fun. (Remember fun anyone?).

Casually browsing around the forums here today, sadly, I see very little of that, and too much
of this sort of thread. The house we occupy is being taken apart brick by brick.

08-29-2017, 08:18 AM
Exhibit A - 000010
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 10/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Desidious

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
+1.

At the time these scores were submitted, and as I understand it, a legitimate verification
method was having a TG referee witness your score live. You didn't have to submit physical
evidence.

TG supplied a referee to adjudicate on the day, he witnessed the scores, and approved them.

Unless someone has a taped "confession" from the referee or player in question stating
unequivocally that the scores were false, there is no case to answer here.

The "evidence" submitted with this thread means absolutely nothing (as odd as the videos
might be).

Twin Galaxies is not about scores. It's about the games, the community, the history, having
respect for each other and having fun. (Remember fun anyone?).

Casually browsing around the forums here today, sadly, I see very little of that, and too much
of this sort of thread. The house we occupy is being taken apart brick by brick.

I guess I don't understand this because I'm too busy having fun playing games and submitting
my times/scores to at least track all of what I'm doing. :)

08-29-2017, 08:19 AM
dwwnp

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
At the time these scores were submitted, and as I understand it, a legitimate verification
method was having a TG referee witness your score live. You didn't have to submit physical
evidence.

TG supplied a referee to adjudicate on the day, he witnessed the scores, and approved them.

Exhibit A - 000011
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 11/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The referee in question was Todd Rogers, who is not a credible witness, and the videos
presented here suggest there was no live score performed that day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
Unless someone has a taped "confession" from the referee or player in question stating
unequivocally that the scores were false, there is no case to answer here.

These videos are as close to a confession as we'll ever get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
The "evidence" submitted with this thread means absolutely nothing (as odd as the videos
might be).

It means both Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers are willing to fabricate a story as to how things
played out that day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
There is a reason why the old guard at TG is no longer here.

Because cheating isn't allowed anymore?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
There is a reason why much of the arcade community are no longer here.

Who?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
...posting a video of a guy "not" swapping a board out is hardly concrete evidence that the
scores in this case never occurred.

Again, it is concrete evidence that Billy will misrepresent the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
You cannot apply today's binary video-based ruleset of Twin Galaxies submissions, to the
rules and requirements that were in place in the past. Different times, different submission
requirements - as flaky as they might seem today, that's what they were.

No we cannot apply the same submission requirements of today to historical scores, but not
submitting a falsified score has always been a requirement.

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000012
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 12/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by TT
While the present-day TG community is frothing at the mouth at these historical witch hunts,
real arcade enthusiasts are out there playing games, having fun and looking in shaking their
heads. Suddenly everyone is an expert and has an opinion on everything?

Not a witch hunt. Still playing. And not suddenly. The only change is that the community has
finally been given a voice to help clean up the scoreboard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
Twin Galaxies is not about scores. It's about the games, the community, the history, having
respect for each other and having fun. (Remember fun anyone?).

TG is and always has been, in part, about the scores, though I agree community is far more
important. Do you think these theatrics by Billy were respectful and done to better the
community? Or were they self-serving?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
The house we occupy is being taken apart brick by brick.

It's about damn time!

Nothing but respect for you, TT, but we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one.

08-29-2017, 08:28 AM
DadsGlasses

I see both sides of this discussion.

The reality is that Twin Galaxies is at a cross roads when it comes to the "integrity of the
Legacy scoresbairds". A decision needs to be made:

1. Clean up the entire scoreboard to the best of our ability and abide by a consistent standard
of submission acceptance.

2. Decide that the Legacy scoreboard is unable to be brought to modern day standards without
doing more harm than good.

If decision 2 is chosen, what can be done to honor the scores of the past while at the same
time allowing for modern day competition standards on those tracks?

08-29-2017, 08:33 AM
TT

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwwnp

We're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one.

I don't doubt it. ;)

Exhibit A - 000013
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 13/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I'll watch with interest as to how this plays out, but I think you're rearranging the deckchairs
on the Titanic.

For clarity, I know Bill and Todd, and happen to like them both as people. I'm not questioning
the validity one way or another of these particular scores, more the methods used to question
them. I hope the correct conclusion is reached whatever that might be.

08-29-2017, 08:44 AM
pwnasaurus

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT

I'll watch with interest as to how this plays out, but I think you're rearranging the deckchairs
on the Titanic.

Hit the nail squarely on the head IMO. Accurate statement from my vantage point, though I
must admit the popcorn for this viewing is delicious.

08-29-2017, 09:43 AM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 36642

Ordered another Hefty bag of popcorn, carry on...

08-29-2017, 09:53 AM
CWK

Judgement day has come

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YJayj0F2Rw

08-29-2017, 10:01 AM
spectre

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwwnp

The referee in question was Todd Rogers, who is not a credible witness, and the videos
presented here suggest there was no live score performed that day.

why isn't Todd credible as a TG referee?

08-29-2017, 10:12 AM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectre

why isn't Todd credible as a TG referee?

Exhibit A - 000014
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 14/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Well, according to Todd's own signature, he is a credible "adjudication supervisor".Not too

shabby with a credibility of 1000, eh?
A video game legend, I have ABSOLUTELY no problem accepting.
Attachment 36643

08-29-2017, 11:23 AM
dwwnp

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectre

why isn't Todd credible as a TG referee?

Dozens of impossible claims throughout the years and there was a period where he was even
entering his own scores into the TG database, though I think most of those got pulled when he
was asked to provide evidence and could not. He currently has three scores under dispute.
And as it pertains directly to this dispute, the man wasn't aware that scoring 50 points in DK
Jr. is not possible, information he would have readily picked up if he spent any time at all
watching Billy play that day.

Take a look at this page here (a likely biased accounting of things, but still worthwhile):
http://www.ataricompendium.com/game_...gh_scores.html
& the 4th post on this page here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/110619-

Quite the fishy history, in my opinion. Fishtory.

With that said, it's not my goal here to degrade the reputation of players like Billy and Todd --
though it seems an intrinsic side-effect of seeking the truth -- but to build the credibility of the
TG scoreboard as a place that is both fair and historically accurate.

08-29-2017, 11:45 AM
Robert.F
WOW

WOW , so many skeletons in the closet :)

08-29-2017, 11:54 AM
Ripper

I wish I knew more about these scores but all I can do is promise that I didn't verify this score
and know nothing about it being legit or fake. I do know it's had question marks surrounding
it for quite some time. You guys are doing a great job of investigating it.

08-29-2017, 12:36 PM
zallard1

Wow... I commend the Donkey Kong community for finally building up the courage to make
this thread. They did this knowing fully well that it would be met with unreasonable
resistance from TG members and staff that still cannot fathom the possibility that their idols
could have ever pulled any foul play. They did this knowing that they could be hated in the
classic arcade community for ever daring to question the great Billy Mitchell in any capacity.
This is an important dispute for this website to undergo, even if it's obvious what the outcome
is going to end up being considering how poorly the Dragster dispute is being handled
currently.
Exhibit A - 000015
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 15/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

From the perspective of someone who somehow made this dispute system actually work
correctly once (which I'm now realizing was nothing short of a literal miracle), the evidence
against this score is pretty heavy. The suspicious activity surrounding the score should not be
brushed aside; it should be considered and have more questions asked about it. When you see
a video of a DKjr board being swapped with a DKjr board where one of them was supposed
to be a DK board, it should immediately break your trust in whoever is involved with the
video.

Why would someone lie over something like that? What reason does it serve? Why make it a
spectacle to involve that enough to record the process of changing the board? If the TG
community that's participating in these disputes aren't asking questions of a similar vein for
just this one piece of evidence out of several, then there is just no hope for this dispute
process, or Twin Galaxies as a whole.

This dispute is valid.

08-29-2017, 01:11 PM
TT

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

They did this knowing fully well that it would be met with unreasonable resistance from TG
members and staff that still cannot fathom the possibility that their idols could have ever
pulled any foul play.

I think you're making a huge assumption there and one that is inaccurate. Where is the
"unreasonable resistance"? But I do think if a score is to be put into question, more solid facts
need to be put forward than supposition and finger pointing - whoever's score it is. I think the
days of any player having protection or favouritism are over.

08-29-2017, 01:14 PM
WCopeland

Let me preface with this: every interaction I've ever had with Billy has been overwhelmingly
positive. He has been very kind, respectful, and supportive to me. He has gone the extra mile
for me in ways that are inspirational in my conduct towards other players. His handling of
how I broke the DK record is how I want to treat the next person who breaks the record,
regardless of who that may be. That is how well I have been treated.

At best, the board swap video and gameplay tapes demonstrate that the scores were not done
live as advertised.

I suspected this thread would appear as soon as Todd's credibility was put into question on a
grander scale in the public spotlight; never did I think this thread would appear as soon as it
did.

To qualify what I'm about to say: I can score 1.1m+ on Donkey Kong at will, and I have a
near-complete understanding of the game. I've seen the tapes before and they demonstrate
gameplay mechanics that no well-grounded player would do to maintain 1.1m+ pace. Simply
put, with the playstyle demonstrated in these tapes, the odds of making it all the way to the
end on a single attempt are infinitesimally small. With perfect luck, it's doable, but I'd argue
it's even better luck than my world record game in which I scored 1.17m in a single life... and
by better luck I mean by a huge huge margin. With hundreds of attempts, it's conceivable.
Exhibit A - 000016
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 16/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I've considered streaming and doing deep gameplay analysis and commentary of the tapes. Up
until now out of respect for Billy I haven't done that. Now that everything is out in the open
and on permanent record anyway, I might do it.

To conclude, I believe what's proven here is that the scores were not done live. If Todd's 5.51
is removed from the database, then his dishonesty will be publicly validated (and many of us
will feel vindicated), and that would shine an extremely negative light on this score.

08-29-2017, 01:30 PM
Robert.F
say what

if a score is to be put into question, more solid facts need to be put forward than supposition
and finger pointing ..............., hmmmm the score in question its origins would seem to be
falsified,,,, an out right lie,,, base on the fact not a single shred events the score was varied
live , not a single video recording of the 100 onlookers has come to light .....yet here we have
un conclusive video`s by the record holder trying to draw out for us events to make us think it
was do live only one of theses videos clearly show deception . maybe Billy would like to
chim in on this one and eat a little crow

08-29-2017, 01:36 PM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by TT
I think you're making a huge assumption there and one that is inaccurate. Where is the
"unreasonable resistance"? But I do think if a score is to be put into question, more solid facts
need to be put forward than supposition and finger pointing - whoever's score it is. I think the
days of any player having protection or favouritism are over.

You're correct in that the unreasonable resistance hasn't happened... yet.

I disagree in your assertion that "the days of any player having protection or favouritism are
over" when the biggest reason that Todd's 5.51 is still on TG despite the literal mountain of
evidence against his time, is his namesake and reputation. This dispute against Billy is
undeniably going to go down the same path that the Dragster dispute did. If it doesn't, then
color me shocked.

08-29-2017, 01:56 PM
TT

Probably worth quoting this post again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Okay, based on the discussion in other dispute threads, I overstepped in proposing that our
next task was to view the score as plausible.

Here are some quotes from Jace Hall that are pertinent:

"The fact that you now don't have access to evidence of the score occurring does not mean
that there never was evidence of the score occurring. Exhibit A - 000017
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 17/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The data entry into the Twin Galaxies database suggests that there was evidence at that
time.

Only speculation suggests that there wasn't.

Prove that it never took place and that will prove the score guilty.

The fact that you don't have access to proof that it took place does not mean it did not
happen."

(my emphasis).

08-29-2017, 02:22 PM
Robert.F

what what , how is this irrelevant taking ramblings from the owner of TG to what contexts we
do not know what he is speaking of ?

08-29-2017, 02:26 PM
dwwnp

"The data entry into the Twin Galaxies database suggests that there was evidence at that
time."

This testimony from a former TG referee suggests otherwise:

https://www.facebook.com/OriginalPSP...14171866109920

08-29-2017, 02:36 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwwnp

"The data entry into the Twin Galaxies database suggests that there was evidence at that
time."

This testimony from a former TG referee suggests otherwise:

https://www.facebook.com/OriginalPSP...14171866109920

A few points made in this post:

-Was Todd Rogers a ref at the time of this submission? Or was he Head Evangelist? Both?

-At the time of this submission were there rules in place that required more than "referee
verification" for DK scores?

08-29-2017, 02:48 PM
Robert.F
Oh dont bring psp in to this

Oh dont bring psp in to this

08-29-2017, 02:55 PM
Robert.F
Exhibit A - 000018
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 18/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

interesting what he saying and sounds about right ,along the lines of the good old boys system
:)

08-29-2017, 03:04 PM
d3scride

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwwnp

"The data entry into the Twin Galaxies database suggests that there was evidence at that
time."

Here's the full statement for more permanent archival in this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Scott Patterson

A personal statement. I'm hoping someone will do the right thing and direct people to this so
it may be taken into consideration.

It's been brought to my attention that the 2010 Donkey Kong score listed by Billy Mitchell
has come under the scrutiny of the Twin Galaxies Challenge System that I've recently
criticized. While I still think old scores should not be removed from the database based on the
opinions of the general public, in this case that community has valid reason to doubt the
legitimacy of that score.

Why? Because it was entered without proper verification.

I've told this story before, so I'm going to do the short version here in hopes that people
actually note and use the information this time.

In 2010, DK had more verification rules that other titles simply due to the desire to avoid
further controversy over title changes.
Days before the Big Bang 2010 event, I personally received a voicemail from Mitchell
informing me he had "an exclusive" for me and to call him back. So I did.

He told me that he had set the DK and DKJ records at an arcade near him and that it was
witnessed by a TG referee. He asked me to write the article that announced these
accomplishments to the world so that it could help draw media attention to his induction into
the Hall of Fame in Iowa that upcoming weekend.

For six hours I received calls with a variety of people on the calls, literally dictating to me
how I was going to write the article. Mitchell took offense to the part where I stated that it
was "pending official verification" by telling me "it's verified and official now". At that point
- when I finally got a word in - I declined to have anything to do with it.

I woke up the next day to learn Mitchell was instead just calling a press conference at the Big
Exhibit A - 000019
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 19/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Bang to announce it. This was news to David Nelson when I called him about it that
afternoon, and he wasn't happy.

The first day of the Big Bang event came, and David went to have a chat with Mitchell about
this. He came back to me frustrated, telling me that Mitchell said "If you don't publish the
score, I'm going to ***** ya".

So it came down to a simple vote. All then-TG referees that were at the event (most of the
staff at the time was there) went into a hotel room and voted via a private ballot on if we were
or were not going to accept the scores. Billy won the vote.
Pete Bouvier almost overrode it, but that's when Mark Kiehl popped up at the hotel to give me
a disc with his Donkey Kong Junior record on it. Essentially, Mitchell was set to announce a
record score he'd already lost and technically never set. That got Bouvier to spin around the
other way.

He wasn't proud of it, but there it was. Billy told the TG staff what to put, Pete said to do it,
and even the "Because I'm Billy Mitchell" line was faked, created by the writer of the article
rather than Mitchell. To quote Pete Bouvier, the scores were entered "to shut him up"

So yeah... Billy Mitchell's 2010 Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior scores were entered
into the Twin Galaxies database simply to placate him.. .because he'd brought pressure to do
so.

Worse yet, we were told to defend accepting the scores, and given that Bouvier owed me
$4,000 I needed at the time, I went along with it. Had I known he'd pay us only $800 of it
after nearly five months of waiting, I'd have gone ahead and spilled it.
But it's also one of the reasons - along with that shorted payout - that I quit in early 2011. It's
also the point in time where I began to question the legend of Billy Mitchell. While some like
to defend him against me claiming I have some personal grudge... that's not it, people. It's
going through this and seeing other instances that suggest he's done this to many that make
me question most of what he says. He tried - and failed - to order me as to how to write an
article about him... but he successfully lobbied to have scores entered and press created for
him with ZERO validation as per the rules at that time.

I'm sick over not standing up for it back then. Then again, standing up against that stuff now
gets me heat, too. Either way I guess.
But at the end of the day, I have serious doubts about the validity of that 2010 score and while
I still believe that Challenge System is the wrong idea... in this case I can personally attest to
the fact that there are numerous reasons to question it.
I know there are people there who don't care for what I have to say about anything, but there
it is. I wouldn't feel right if I didn't bring this back up now, as I think there are valid reasons to
question that score and the even

08-29-2017, 03:21 PM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)

Exhibit A - 000020
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 20/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

"I know there are people there who don't care for what I have to say about anything, but there
it is. "

Attachment 36655

Thank you, please drive thru!!!

08-29-2017, 03:35 PM
Blastaar
1 Attachment(s)

Already been linked, and pasted, but attached is a screencap of Mr. Patterson's remarks on
Facebook.

08-29-2017, 05:07 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blastaar

Already been linked, and pasted, but attached is a screencap of Mr. Patterson's remarks on
Facebook.

Still, all the inconsistencies aside, it is interesting to hear a former ref admitting he was
willing to falsify scores for money. Maybe thats why he's not posting here, because he knows
he'd be quickly asked how many other scores did he falsely enter in hopes of money? Just
how many bribes did he accept?

08-29-2017, 06:57 PM
CONSOLEPLAYEROFTHECENTURY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

The only problem I see with someone who admitted they lied is this: Did he lie then, or is he
lying now about the lying? All we know for a fact is he's a liar and so I cant be sure which
time he lied. And why is someone who's so interested in doing the right thing just telling
people to tell others on TG to come to his page to see this? Why doesnt he post it here
himself? Is he just trying to get more views and comments on his facebook page? If he really
just cared about getting the truth out there it seems he'd come to this thread to make sure
people find out instead of hoping someone else posts for him. Nothing about his comment ads
up.
Exhibit A - 000021
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 21/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Well he falsified many historical facts

Cat Despira told me he created Ryan Bland, Mark Merica and Jack Wiers even BEFORE The
submissions
I was told by several former refs and people at TG he was handshaked promised cash to pad
the database, make fake scores and harm history Per Pete later to find out he was not
respected or liked so Pete STIFFED him while others got money!!!!!!

Here is the bottomline for the MANY impaired reading this weather he lied about this,
something else, or everything, he lied and that is the problem, he will do anything for
MONEY, he did it when caught by people using their stuff in ill ways.

Same Quote I got a family to feed, ill do whatever it takes....

Message to you Patrick Scott Patterson you feed your family making honest money get a job,
you don't steal and false info to get a paycheck, lie about your own life and history, might as
well sell your body or drugs for that way of living.

You go out like normal people get a job, invest, start an honest business.

You have been involved in everything dirty from being caught entering your own scores
creating fake players
changing rules without permission or being told to do so
you have done anything ill to make a buck which now you and your family are paying for and
ain't it sweet????
you have stolen videos, pictures, got caught being part of more scams than Nixon, Clinton
and Clinton combined
You never take responsibility for anything you done or involved in, you always say, it was
someone elses fault.
You say you were forced
or you were told to do so and the world famous call lies

No matter what you are an evil person who cannot be trusted and I will make sure Retro
Justice gets this to all your contacts, your events and of course your fake followers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I pray to god you are deleted from Twingalaxies History you are the most disgraceful person
and gamer in history of the Gaming and should be ashamed of yourself!!!!!!!!!

Dirty Pool at it's finest

08-29-2017, 07:44 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

people to tell others on TG to come to his page to see this? Why doesnt he post it here
himself? Is he just trying to get more views and comments on his facebook page? If he really
just cared about getting the truth out there it seems he'd come to this thread to make sure
people find out instead of hoping someone else posts for him. Nothing about his comment ads
up.

Not trying to be coy here, but if PSP did log on and enter his recollection into the dispute
thread, would that change your view of his testimony, or to put it a little differently, would it
carry more weight?

08-29-2017, 08:05 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Technically, it would give it a little more weight -- not much, but a little. His non entry here is
just one of many issues, but yes, if he were to actually submit it in the proper place that would
remove one of the issues i have with it for what thats worth. It would've also helped if he
admitted what he did was wrong instead of justifying it as he "needed the money" and solely
attacking billy comes off more as a vendetta than an interest in truth.

also, if he posted here and actually responded to follow up questions that would count for a
lot more.

08-29-2017, 11:08 PM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 36674

Its hump day, FOLKS! Time for more popcorn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IafvYG_vGcY

08-30-2017, 06:55 AM
timmell

Chief, I wonder what that ever meant. Maybe ref??? drove me crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0B4esSDUc0&t=1s

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

Exhibit A - 000023
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 23/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

A few points made in this post:

-Was Todd Rogers a ref at the time of this submission? Or was he Head Evangelist? Both?

-At the time of this submission were there rules in place that required more than "referee
verification" for DK scores?

08-30-2017, 07:12 AM
Robert.F
Is this it

Is this it will this argument bring the TG family or will create stem roller effect anarchy and
TG as we know it :)

08-30-2017, 01:25 PM
rotunda

So is there any other evidence to be shown here?

I'm keeping an eye on this to see what turns up and potentially vote either way but so far it
just seems to be a few questionable things but nothing solid to actually prove it...?

08-30-2017, 02:26 PM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

...questionable...

Don't mind if I do...

1) Any chance of getting a statement from Billy to the effect of "I played live games of
Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr at Boomers on 7/31/10 and set the scores in question at
that time" or Todd to the effect of "I witnessed Billy play live games of Donkey Kong and
Donkey Kong Jr at Boomers on 7/31/10 and set the scores in question at that time"?

2) Who else was at Boomers on the date in question? Certainly it would have been a big deal
that Billy was doing this and people would remember it.

3) Has the tech in the video been asked why the narration indicates that he was removing a
DK board but it was really a DKJR board?

4) Can it be confirmed whether or not Todd and Morning Dove were really referees on the
date in question?

5) Any chance of getting a comment from Dave Nelson as to what he knew of this affair?

6) Can it be discovered who the other referees were that took the secret ballot that Referee
Patterson described? If so, can comments be obtained from them?

08-30-2017, 02:50 PM
Robert.F
Curious George has join the TG thread
Exhibit A - 000024
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 24/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Wes told me Curious George has join the TG thread and the man with the yellow hat
where are there post

08-30-2017, 07:18 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

also, if he posted here and actually responded to follow up questions that would count for a
lot more.

one more thing about this as i see he's repeatedly refering to me and trying to get me to see his
facebook posts. If he has something to say about this and wants us to see it, I dont have time
to go to some obscure page on the far corner of the internet -- particularly one that blocks me.
I'm way to busy to create a fake account and login just to verify what people are telling me he
said about me or this thread. If he really wants us to see something, he can post it here. Its not
that hard. If you want people to here you talk to them, if you want people to read your release
about something post it where they already are. Until then he needs to shut up and let the
grown ups handle this one.

08-30-2017, 07:42 PM
Robert.F

fk psp he is not of any imprints , let`s get to the matter at hand , did or did not Billy Mitchell
try to deceive people as to when he set that score on DK ,, i say hell yeah

08-31-2017, 01:01 AM
rotunda

Quote:

fk psp he is not of any imprints , let`s get to the matter at hand , did or did not Billy Mitchell
try to deceive people as to when he set that score on DK ,, i say hell yeah

I believe the reason people are going through all this and asking various people questions and
getting statements is because we lack solid evidence right now. We need to paint a picture of
what exactly happened. Sadly, those who can do this are likely going to not come here and
post or be tricky to contact.

I can definitely see that something weird is going on with the current evidence BUT you have
to prove it without any doubt if a score is to be removed and personally, i don't see that yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blastaar

Don't mind if I do...

1) Any chance of getting a statement from Billy to the effect of "I played live games
Exhibit of
A - 000025
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 25/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr at Boomers on 7/31/10 and set the scores in question at
that time" or Todd to the effect of "I witnessed Billy play live games of Donkey Kong and
Donkey Kong Jr at Boomers on 7/31/10 and set the scores in question at that time"?

2) Who else was at Boomers on the date in question? Certainly it would have been a big deal
that Billy was doing this and people would remember it.

3) Has the tech in the video been asked why the narration indicates that he was removing a
DK board but it was really a DKJR board?

4) Can it be confirmed whether or not Todd and Morning Dove were really referees on the
date in question?

5) Any chance of getting a comment from Dave Nelson as to what he knew of this affair?

6) Can it be discovered who the other referees were that took the secret ballot that Referee
Patterson described? If so, can comments be obtained from them?

Can we action these and get some answers, anyone?

08-31-2017, 02:32 AM
creech

I have a question. Hypothetically this score is removed, BIlly would then have to submit a
new score to be on the DK record list correct? His previous high score wouldn't be added
correct? If there is record and evidence of it.

08-31-2017, 02:37 AM
creech

Quote:

Originally Posted by creech

I assume the player would have to submit a new score under the Jace TG adjudication
process? In regards to players that had scores in the past on the scoreboard.

08-31-2017, 03:39 AM
pwnasaurus

Quote:

Originally Posted by creech

This is a valid question.

I assume his previous high score would be added back and another dispute would have to be
opened up for that particular TG verified score should someone wish to challenge it.
Exhibit A - 000026
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 26/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

08-31-2017, 04:02 AM
rotunda

I would love Billy to come back and submit a new score.

Highly unlikely at this stage I'm sure but that would be one awesome adjudication to
participate it. I've literally never seen him play a full game of DK and i would love to see him
play.

I'm also not sure how i feel about his previous score being added back into the database. Isn't
that the score from KoK? If so, that would likely raise even more eye brows than this dispute
has. I now the KoK was fixed and edited to make Billy look like the bad guy and all that but
honestly that video tape was dodgy as hell!

I always wondered why Billy would direct capture his game play for DK instead of use a
camera. How do you even get direct capture from an arcade machine?!

Did he do the same direct capture recording for his other scores or use a camera?

08-31-2017, 04:09 AM
creech

Actually, I recently learned @stella_blue questioned this in the forums but, I'm not sure what
records TG still obtains as far as record submitted and surpassed as well as evidence if not
witnessed by a ref. It'll be easier to take the next best previous score in the @jacehall era
because for the most part all submission evidence is retained.

08-31-2017, 04:14 AM
creech

I have been restricted for "spamming" so this was probably meant for another area on the site,
I meant no intention to disrupt the dispute.

08-31-2017, 04:56 AM
rotunda

I had a look and answered my own question from earlier. It would seem his last record was
not the taped score but the one at the mortgage brokers.

For those (like myself) unfamiliar with the exact goings on with this record in past years.
NOT what the KoK portrays. Here is a detailed video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAQ2vEHq2N4

08-31-2017, 05:21 AM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

It would seem his last record was not the taped score but the one at the mortgage brokers.

Was there any video of him scoring a million live at the mortgage brokers? If not, isn't it
possible he just did the same thing there that he is accused of at Boomers in this dispute?
Everybody thought it was odd that he did it at that venue instead of an arcade.
Exhibit A - 000027
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 27/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

08-31-2017, 05:29 AM
pwnasaurus

Each year, mortgage brokers are the biggest consumers of arcade Donkey Kong*. It seems
only fitting that they be given a dedicated event to satisfy their appetite.

* Based on Nov 1982 findings in National Mortgage Professional Magazine

08-31-2017, 05:36 AM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

That I cannot answer however, the video i posted does seem to show video during the
discussion of his run at the brokers so perhaps there does exist one? The narator on the
YouTube video states that no one was there to see him do it so I guess there must have been a
video.

Oddly, it also shows the exact same tape issue that his score on the KoK had. I find this very
strange.

Attachment 36711

Here is the part where he discusses this and also shows the same issue as the KoK video. If
this was recorded live surely this glitch should not occur? Tapes get that sort of problem when
you copy a copy of a copy and so forth.. Don't tell me he copied his live performance there to
a load of tapes too? It seems very strange to me.

https://youtu.be/LAQ2vEHq2N4?t=16m28s

08-31-2017, 05:49 AM
rotunda

I also noticed this... he mentions it was displayed on a big screen, with no audio and Billy was
playing in the other room...

Wasn't the original KoK tape without audio as well? I could be wrong but I seem to recall
there being no audio of it on the TV there in the film. If there was none at the mortgage
brokers either would this not prove he was playing a tape at the mortgage brokers event and
not actually playing live? The same thing he is said to have done in this dispute?

Unless of course his direct capture only captured the video and not audio. That seems odd to
me though.

Any MAME runs I've seen lack the correct sounds for walking, jumping and Kong banging
when he jumps on the barrel board.

Doesn't it seem ironic that the audio is missing from both his direct capture runs?
Exhibit A - 000028
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 28/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

08-31-2017, 06:40 AM
WCopeland

It's suggestive, but it's also difficult to capture audio from a DK PCB while using a direct
capture setup. In the one event I've participated where there was direct capture from the
board, they gave up trying to get audio and actually put a microphone on the cabinet itself.
@Jace Hall is actually pretty knowledgable when it comes to getting direct capture from a
DK PCB, and he might be able to provide some illumination here.

08-31-2017, 06:56 AM
Robert.F

"displayed on a big screen, with no audio and Billy was playing in the other room..." wow
that make of The Wizard Of Oz hiding in a room behind a curtain pulling levers and pushing
buttons ,,, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE

08-31-2017, 09:44 AM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

[COLOR=#333333]"displayed on a big screen, with no audio and Billy was playing in the
other room..." wow that make of The Wizard Of Oz hiding in a room behind a curtain pulling
levers

OMG...one couldn't write comedy like this if one tried.

09-01-2017, 02:48 AM
CWK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudy J. Ferretti

Well he falsified many historical facts
Cat Despira told me he created Ryan Bland, Mark Merica and Jack Wiers even BEFORE The
submissions
I was told by several former refs and people at TG he was handshaked promised cash to pad
the database, make fake scores and harm history Per Pete later to find out he was not
respected or liked so Pete STIFFED him while others got money!!!!!!

Same Quote I got a family to feed, ill do whatever it takes....

You go out like normal people get a job, invest, start an honest business.

You have been involved in everything dirty from being caught entering your own scores
creating fake players
Exhibit A - 000029
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 29/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

changing rules without permission or being told to do so

you have done anything ill to make a buck which now you and your family are paying for and
ain't it sweet????
you have stolen videos, pictures, got caught being part of more scams than Nixon, Clinton
and Clinton combined
You never take responsibility for anything you done or involved in, you always say, it was
someone elses fault.
You say you were forced
or you were told to do so and the world famous call lies

No matter what you are an evil person who cannot be trusted and I will make sure Retro
Justice gets this to all your contacts, your events and of course your fake followers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I pray to god you are deleted from Twingalaxies History you are the most disgraceful person
and gamer in history of the Gaming and should be ashamed of yourself!!!!!!!!!

Dirty Pool at it's finest

Lmfao!!!!!

09-02-2017, 09:25 AM
Robert.F
setting the record right

Todd Rogers has just uploaded a video to tell us the story of Dragster :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=bmXFb-ElXm8

09-02-2017, 09:28 AM
CONSOLEPLAYEROFTHECENTURY

His first Mistake was Letting Issaih get involved won't even watch
Todd Upload yourself

09-02-2017, 09:43 AM
ruse_sr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Todd Rogers has just uploaded a video to tell us the story of Dragster :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=bmXFb-ElXm8

Thats nice, but this is a DK thread.

09-02-2017, 10:17 AM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)

Butter and salt please!!!

Attachment 36798

09-02-2017, 10:34 AM
CONSOLEPLAYEROFTHECENTURY
Exhibit A - 000030
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 30/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Butter and salt please!!!

Attachment 36798

Perhaps a Rescue of games from an invalid sixteen year old

or wait till a huryyycaine arrives and take advantage than lol

09-02-2017, 10:44 AM
Riatoju

I wasn't going to chime in but part of the evidence suggested the referees involved with this
are corrupt. Is there email conversations, screenshots, or a confession, or links that can back
this up? You cant call someone corrupt as evidence.

09-02-2017, 04:31 PM
Robert.F

I have a upload for you to watch Rudy if you wont look at Todd`s , I`m sorry but for it will be
offensive to your,er person

09-02-2017, 07:48 PM
Riatoju

Hey bert!!!!!!!

09-03-2017, 01:41 AM
rotunda

This dispute is going off track real fast...

09-03-2017, 05:45 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

This dispute is going off track real fast...

True, but I got a question for everyone. Is 5.51 possible by a human?

09-03-2017, 05:50 AM
rotunda

I have a counter question, why is it relevant to a Donkey Kong dispute?

This is what you are looking for: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...e-05-51/page21

09-03-2017, 11:01 AM
Jace Hall

Yes. I have become aware that very recently a former TG ref has stated that without making
any public protest he allowed a score to be entered into the database thatExhibit
he believed to be
A - 000031
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 31/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

improper, and that he did that in the hope of recieving money.

No need to PM me about this further. It is disappointing, but I would like the community to
consider that all TG refs are not the same and that the admitted actions of one does not reflect
them all. The historic TG refs that helped build TG should be appreciated for their great
contributions during all the challenging times.

Score disputes shall continue to be handled on a case by case basis.

Thank you.

09-04-2017, 07:01 AM
Robert.F

Money, it's a crime

Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a raise it's no surprise that they're giving none away.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave

When first we practise to deceive!

09-04-2017, 07:18 AM
Dave Hawksett

We are slowly but surely untangling it. If we do it in a hurry, like some expect, we will tangle
it further.

We would not be able to untangle it at all without the enormous community input from
everyone.

09-04-2017, 07:24 AM
swaggers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Yes. I have become aware that very recently a former TG ref has stated that without making
any public protest he allowed a score to be entered into the database that he believed to be
improper, and that he did that in the hope of recieving money.

Score disputes shall continue to be handled on a case by case basis.

Thank you.

Exhibit A - 000032
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 32/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Not directly related to this score but what are your opinions on this person's personal standing
and scores at TG considering he has publically admitted to these actions?

09-06-2017, 08:09 PM
xelnia

Todd speaks about these scores for about two minutes here (from about 55:01 to 57:16):
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/172863299?t=55m01s

Todd states twice that he has recorded footage of Billy's DK and DKJR games. He also states
that he gave this video footage to the "appropriate" referee, without giving a name.

If Todd is to be believed, he was not acting in a referee capacity, but simply as a witness. This
would also cast doubt on MorningDove's participation as a verifying referee. Why submit
tapes to the "appropriate referee" if one was already a witness? There should be some 2010-
era referee out there who attended the 2010 IVGHOF Big Band event, viewed these tapes,
and can confirm this story. Stephen Boyer has already said he did not verify this score. It
would bring into question the "Referee" method of verification currently listed in the
database.

If PSP is to be believed, no referee ever received tapes for this game (or DKJR). PSP claims
Billy told him that the scores were witnessed by a TG referee (presumably implying Todd
and/or MorningDove) and were already official. The games were subsequently "verified" by a
group of TG referees with a secret ballot at the 2010 IVGHOF Big Bag event. While PSP
doesn't explicitly state it, the implication here is that this group of referees never received the
tapes Todd claims to have.

It might be worth starting a dispute on Billy's DKJR score as well.

09-07-2017, 12:03 PM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

If PSP is to be believed...

I'd really like to hear Dave Nelson's account of this affair at this point.

Can nobody get a statement from him?

09-07-2017, 06:59 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaggers

Not directly related to this score but what are your opinions on this person's personal standing
and scores at TG considering he has publically admitted to these actions?

Any score can be challenged and it will stand or fall on its own merits.

Quote:

but what are your opinions on this person's personal standing Exhibit A - 000033
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 33/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

My opinion is that it is unfortunate that his admitted self-interested breach of ethics as a TG

ref may potentially have an undermining negative impact on the perception of the other
initiatives or projects that he is involved with.

There are many good people associated with some of those other projects and I worry now
that they might get negatively branded as also having "questionable moral character" due to
the default perception of guilt-by-association that the community has.

It's challenging. Once a person has shown themselves capable of making unethical decisions
for direct personal monetary gain, its hard to undo that perception and assumption that
everything they touch is tainted by that motivation.

09-08-2017, 04:51 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Any score can be challenged and it will stand or fall on its own merits.

My opinion is that it is unfortunate that his admitted self-interested breach of ethics as a TG

ref may potentially have an undermining negative impact on the perception of the other
initiatives or projects that he is involved with.

In the new TGSAP system that is easy to disprove. Sure, people can vote/not vote for certain
people but that's as far as it goes. In the old TG, the evidence verified by a single ref who has
taken money to allow certain scores to be entered, or maybe in some cases not entered, has to
be there. If he did it once, we will automatically think he did it for all, just human nature. We
simply can't know due to the way the evidence needed back them to have scores verified.
Your right, he may have only done it on a handful of scores, maybe only 1 score, but they will
all be viewed like this.

Worst part is, some of the scores found to be skeptical that were verified by PSP will now
automatically include the player as bribing PSP to enter them. It's going to be a huge snowball
of a mess to fix. Glad he didn't verify any of my stuff.

Side note, since he has admitted this has anybody asked him what scores he entered for
money? I seriously doubt people will ever trust his word, but he has admitted to accepting
money for scores and people believe him. If he calls out some scores that people are able to
dispute, might be able to help find a few cheaters as well. Paying someone to over look rules
and let scores be entered for money is cheating in my book.

Sorry this message might not make complete sense, I've been awake for 5 minutes. Context is
there though. Exhibit A - 000034
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 34/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

09-08-2017, 06:22 AM
Snowflake

Hes very jealous of billy mitchel and a few others. He'll have no problem saying he falsified
mitchel scores but that just begs the question of if he's making that up to hurt Mitchell. I'm
also sure plenty of good people with real scores submitted and had psp verify their real scores.
You know what though plenty of people did real scores and didn't have a camera on hand at
the time it happens. I don't see how verification from a ref who will make his decision based
on money is any different than someone just saying "trust me". We all suspected but now have
an admission that scores verified by pat do not require evidence to get into the database so the
claim that evidence must've existed at the time is a fallacy. All that said I'm not about to just
believe pat when he makes a claim like this and actually wields his own bad reputation to try
to hurt people. Remember todd said there were tapes. So although I would agree any score
entered by Patrick is meaningless I'm not about to take his word for which scores he did and
didn't enter.

09-08-2017, 12:02 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

So then how can you/anybody believe he actually took money to enter false scores? He could
be making it up to hurt others because he doesn't like them.

09-08-2017, 02:09 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

So then how can you/anybody believe he actually took money to enter false scores? He could
be making it up to hurt others because he doesn't like them.

I dont fully, I explained that in earlier comments. As i said when the first came up is, when
someone says they lied, either it means they lied then or they're lying now. Therefore I do
know for sure they're a liar but dont which time the lie was. As we know for sure he's a liar it
brings into question everything else he said. Also, either its true he did it for money, or he
actually thinks lying about doing it for money was clever. Anyone who thinks lying and
saying they did a score for money is a good idea says alot about them. So although I dont
think we can use his "confession" against billy, I absolutely think we can use it when
determining if we believe anything he says or anything he verifies. Exhibit A - 000035
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 35/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

09-08-2017, 02:26 PM
The Evener

Whether you believe PSP or not, he has outlined the following scenario:

-Mitchell's score was not verified on the eve of the event

-TG referees were asked to vote by secret ballot whether to accept the score on the day of the
event
-a majority voted yes

It would seem to me the simplest action would be to confirm that a vote took place; according
to PSP, it involved all TG referees at that time. How many individuals would that be? More
than five?

As well, might the closed TG referee archives contain any discussion following the event
about the vote/subsequent entry of the score into the database that would corroborate PSP's
account?

09-08-2017, 05:32 PM
JJT_Defender

From the Bottom Video at about :40 Seconds in When Billy Mitchael States that their were
many World Champions Video Game Players from Boomers many Years ago

he was talking about Grand Prix Race 'O' Rama at the Time The Worlds Largest Arcade
Game Room in the Early 80's Built like a Castle I JJT Estimate 4,000 Arcade Games &
Redemption Machine's

With Rows of 20 Defender, Pac-Man, Galaga, Donkey Kong, Robotron etc. It was a
Awesome site Wow! I lived just up the Road about a Half a Mile away I JJT Johnny went
there every day Open 24 Hours a Day

It Started out in the early 70's Pinball Machine's later Go Karts & Bike Races Then Arcade
Games etc.

it was Off of State 84 & University Drive Close to the The Florida Turnpike in Fort
Lauderdale, Florida it Later Moved to Dania off Ih-95 they were Bought Out and Renamed it
Boomers Originally from California.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

When this was pointed out in the comments section of the YouTube video, those comments
were deleted and the audio was muted and swapped out for some royalty-free music that
YouTube provides...but not before the original video with original audio had been saved.
Exhibit A - 000036
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 36/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This raises many questions, but here's what stands out in my mind.

1) If everything was performed and recorded legitimately, why go through the motions to
record a board swap video using only a DKJR board? And then why mute the video?

5) Billy has never demonstrated live that he capable of the scores that TG gives him credit for.
He has never scored over 1,000,000 in a live, neutral venue.

Now with This Dispute is just insures it for sure.

I agree with you all their Funny and Inconsistent & Questionable things in these videos.

It is like watching a Magic Show , or Broadway show you do not know what is behind the
Curtain.

09-09-2017, 01:43 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Here my Prediction I see Billy Mitchael coming out of Retirement inside of 1 Year he will
Try to WR on Donkey Kong.Donkey Kong jr. m Ms. Pac-Man, Burgertime.

Although I find this doubtful, I would love to see that happen!

09-13-2017, 04:59 PM
Robert.F
Billy need a spanking

Billy needs a spanking ,,,, There no concrete proof this score was achieved on the day in
question,,, Tape`s (TAPES?) with no sound are the only advance that the score was play out...
but by whom? the probability are endless... Maybe Billy has people chained up in his
basement cranking out Donkey Kong tapes for him; that why there no sound, for the
porpoises to hide there moaning and groaning on them poor soles. Maybe billy got that score
on his own with his Frankenstein recording setup (direct feed to a vcr no sound),,,, Either way
there was collusion invalid in this and direct deception all the way, is what I`m saying,
Enough that would get any TG submission disallowed , and i even thing back in the day ,,,,,
Billy needs a spanking he need`s to eat some crow,,,,,, manipulation and distortion of the facts
"Hay Billy What The **** is up with that"

09-15-2017, 07:59 AM
tudose

dwayne [08|Jan 11:08:50 PM]: did anyone know hank did a power point presentation to get
bills score removed long time ago
dwayne [08|Jan 11:09:24 PM]: that was when dave was referee and the new crew took over

can anybody shed some light on this? i know for a fact that it happened, but not much is clear
about how exactly it went down or what specific pieces of evidence were provided. dwayne
had a lot to say about billy and todd during his visits to DKF shoutbox a couple years ago...

09-15-2017, 03:07 PM
Blastaar
1 Attachment(s)

Okay, here's a staff photo from 2010. Can anybody name the rest?

1) Pete Bouvier (RIP)

2)
Exhibit A - 000038
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 38/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

3) Dave Nelson
4)
5) Patrick Scott Patterson
6)
7)
8)
9) Adam Wood
10)

09-15-2017, 03:16 PM
Barra

2- Michael sroka
4- josh houslander
6- PSPs wife?

09-15-2017, 03:19 PM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

6- PSPs wife?

How does that happen? She's cute.

09-15-2017, 03:20 PM
Barra

@RaGe will know the rest

09-15-2017, 03:51 PM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blastaar

Okay, here's a staff photo from 2010. Can anybody name the rest?

1) Pete Bouvier (RIP)

2)
3) Dave Nelson
4)
5) Patrick Scott Patterson
6)
7)
8)
9) Adam Wood
10)

From Left to Right: TGI CEO Pete Bouvier, Michael Sroka, David Nelson, Josh Houslander,
Patrick Scott Patterson, Melissa Leigh Patterson, William Willemstyn III, Matt Bradford,
Adam Wood, and Tim Stodden

So, can any of THEM be asked about Patterson's claims about how the score was accepted?
Exhibit A - 000039
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 39/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

09-15-2017, 04:15 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blastaar

So, can any of THEM be asked about Patterson's claims about how the score was accepted?

Bradford, Josh and I were left out of any discussions as we were not referees.

I have been digging through video footage to see if there is anything that can help from that
time/event as I have hours of footage.

09-15-2017, 04:40 PM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Bradford, Josh and I were left out of any discussions as we were not referees

Does that mean that William, Adam, and Tim were referees? Do you know of any others circa
2010?

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

I have been digging through video footage to see if there is anything that can help from that
time/event as I have hours of footage.

Awesome. Please let us know whether you find anything of interest.

09-15-2017, 08:23 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blastaar

Does that mean that William, Adam, and Tim were referees? Do you know of any others circa
2010?

Awesome. Please let us know whether you find anything of interest.

Yes, plus Nelson, Patrick Patterson, his wife Melissa were the 6 staff refs there at that time.

09-16-2017, 06:37 AM
Blastaar
Exhibit A - 000040
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 40/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Yes, plus Nelson, Patrick Patterson, his wife Melissa were the 6 staff refs there at that time.

So you can confirm that Todd Rogers and Morning Dove Mahoney were not referees in
2010?

09-16-2017, 03:24 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blastaar

So you can confirm that Todd Rogers and Morning Dove Mahoney were not referees in
2010?

Todd was a ref in 2010. Morningdove no to best of my knowledge.

todd was not working as a ref at the IVGHOF 2010, as he was a inductee.

09-17-2017, 06:12 PM
timmell

here is footage of Billy Announcing the record, Don't if it has anything worthwhile. The end
of the video is great with Mr. Awesome.

http://persistentproductions.net/tgi/mitchell2010.mp4

09-18-2017, 04:27 AM
Robert.F
Cool 1080p

Cool 1080p now only if there was a 1080p recording of Billy sitting down at Boomers
playing DK with the 100 or so cheering and recording with there cell phones :)

09-19-2017, 11:50 AM
rotunda

Is this thread pretty much dead now then?

Seems to have run out of steam and there is no new evidence coming forward. I very much
doubt this score will be challenged successfully.

09-19-2017, 03:49 PM
Robert.F
for me its the opposite

For me its the opposite , Are you a Billy supporter planted here to put doubt in or minds or
maybe you or lacking in understanding to the Dispute ,Its the lack of bios evidence outside of
TG insiders that is missing here ,,,,, and amazingly there not bringing anything to the table the
ones where there (I`m not hanging my self for billy i bet there saying and i dont blame them)
...... What billy did was bull crap (Unbelievable) i say,; Pulling off the DK and DKjr record in
one day. Even more unbelievable is his thinking we would not like some proof other then Him
Saying he Did... it not Enough for me thank you vary much, he had to much influence with in
Exhibit A - 000041
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 41/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

TG and i want out side evidence to proof the even`s as the they say they did happon ........ The
End :)

09-19-2017, 04:05 PM
Barra

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Is this thread pretty much dead now then?

Seems to have run out of steam and there is no new evidence coming forward. I very much
doubt this score will be challenged successfully.

I agree it'll never be removed without the testimony of at least a few of the refs involved in
the PSP Saga. The evidence is circumstantial at best but you can't deny there's at least a
suspicion of something untoward happening.

However at this point even being able to dispute this should be considered a win. This score
will forever be marked with [Disputed] next to it. That's good enough for me.

09-19-2017, 04:09 PM
Robert.F
cover his tracks

I bet Billy wish he had a time machine to go back and cover up his tracks better (maybe 5
min`s of him playing at Boomers) but he doesn't or at less i never seen it , I like to see Robs
videos on the day in question; you know the guy at Boomers that upload this deceiving tape to
YouTube (the proven to be deceiving Tape of the board swap) , You know the guy Billy
proclaimed has more video footage of Billy in the world then any other guy, i like to see him
come foreword.... there is not enough events it did happon really happon; but more it didn't ,,,
innocent till proven guilty i say , So bring on the proof i say, it really did it happon?

09-20-2017, 01:41 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Are you a Billy supporter planted here to put doubt in or minds or maybe you or lacking in
understanding to the Dispute ,Its the lack of bios evidence outside of TG insiders that is
missing here

No, I'm not a Billy supporter I'm a proud neutral when it comes to things here at TG. I don't
get involved in the politics.

I'd also like to think I don't lack understanding of the dispute system and I think I'm pretty
close to being correct in my assumptions here. To remove a score we need solid evidence and
I don't see that happening. The thread lost steam a long time ago now.

I agree something does look off here but, I also don't think at the stage we can prove it 100%
and in that case the score will remain.

09-20-2017, 02:24 PM
Julius Reigns
Exhibit A - 000042
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 42/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

No, I'm not a Billy supporter I'm a proud neutral when it comes to things here at TG. I don't
get involved in the politics.

I agree something does look off here but, I also don't think at the stage we can prove it 100%
and in that case the score will remain.

Agreed 100%. A score shouldn't even come close to being removed because its suspicious. It
should be disputed with a chance to prove it wasn't achieved within the rules if its suspicious.
In this case, the dispute system worked great I think. There was never any evidence submitted
that would prove this record false, therefore it should stand. If any evidence ever comes to
light, the door has been opened and it has a platform to be submitted. Until then, if ever,
congratulations to Mr. Mitchell on his achievements.

09-20-2017, 08:53 PM
Robert.F
false evidence

"There was never any evidence submitted that would prove this record false" Ok Fine but
where is the evidence submitted proving it real ?

09-21-2017, 07:07 AM
Julius Reigns

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

"There was never any evidence submitted that would prove this record false" Ok Fine but
where is the evidence submitted proving it real ?

Oh, I definitely agree with you, but it's been made clear that unless we have a time machine to
prove a negative (which is about the only way) or admission of guilt, nothing will be done.
Because even if you prove a score impossible, the troops will be rallied and you and anyone
who agrees with you will be labeled as having an agenda outside of just wanting to get rid of
bogus scores.

09-21-2017, 09:22 AM
Mapler90210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

"There was never any evidence submitted that would prove this record false" Ok Fine but
where is the evidence submitted proving it real ?

Jace has stated this before, but any score's presence on the leaderboard is an indication that it's
evidence package met the requirements of the time it was instated. While historical
requirements have proven to be not very convincing in the current time (and worse, it was
often wholly dependent on individuals to be trustworthy, some of whomExhibit
proved later on that
A - 000043
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 43/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

they were not), the offical TG stance seems to be that it will honor that history. If we want a
score removed, we can't just state that the evidence was lame, we have to prove that the score
was fake.

In this case, the evidence proves that Billy and some others lied and misled people, but it does
not prove that the score was fake. I think the current dispute system simply does not make
removing this score possible at the current time. I am happy that it is at least marked disputed
and that the first page of this thread is sufficiently convincing that Billy pulled something
shady with this

09-21-2017, 03:10 PM
Benjamin Frew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapler90210

Jace has stated this before, but any score's presence on the leaderboard is an indication that it's
evidence package met the requirements of the time it was instated.

If this mantra also applies to fake scores typed into the system - Todd Rogers style - that is
concerning.

I'm thankful to not be in Jace's shoes. It's tough dealing with a leaderboard that has been
compromised.

09-21-2017, 03:17 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Frew

If this mantra also applies to fake scores typed into the system - Todd Rogers style - that is
concerning.

I'm thankful to not be in Jace's shoes. It's tough dealing with a leaderboard that has been
compromised.

That would also making walking difficult for the both of you!

09-24-2017, 08:35 PM
Robert.F
ha ha ha haaa hA A

ha ha ha haaa hA A

09-24-2017, 11:34 PM
francoisadt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

The video clearly shows a Donkey Kong Jr pcb , Bering removed and the same Donkey Kong
Jr pcb being put back in to the cabinet ,, to a UN-trained train eye Dk and DKjr look the same
and in fact they are vary similar, except for a few noticeable differences...
Exhibit A - 000044
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 44/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

To those DK expert adjudicators, if somebody today play a DK game and just do the same ,
pulling out a DK PCB putting in a DK Jnr PCB will that eliminate the chance that such a
submission be approved in the TGSP system today? The main aspect is actuualy to show the
real PCB if not most gamers vote it off. Look at previous examples in the adjudication system
that do not contain video of the PCB. So in this case what is acceptable for future
submissions? So if I do the same it would be acceptable and so also other's playing DK or DK
Jnr?

09-25-2017, 05:55 AM
Mapler90210

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

I don't understand what you're asking here.

Billy didn't pull out a DK PCB and put in a DK jr PCB. He took out a DK jr PCB then put a
DK jr PCB in. Then he claimed it was footage of him changing PCBs out between his DK
score attempts and his DK jr score attempts.

09-25-2017, 06:05 AM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapler90210

I don't understand what you're asking here.

Exhibit A - 000045
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 45/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

That's correct. The "board swap" video is clearly intentionally faked evidence from the event.
There is no other explanation. You don't accidentally film yourself twice with just a DK Jr
PCB and claim you're swapping out a DK PCB.

We don't have access to all of the original evidence submitted for this score and we don't
know if the faked "board swap" video was submitted as part of the evidence to TG, but if a
new submission was made with this video as part of the evidence package the adjudication
would certainly be rejected and the player would probably be banned from TG for cheating
for submitting faked evidence.

09-25-2017, 06:12 AM
Mapler90210

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

The issue with this, as I understand it, is that supposedly the evidence for TG was the in-
person verification. The videos themselves were for publicity or something.

That said, I'm not actually 100% sure if what I just said is true because of all the conflicting
information around this score.

09-25-2017, 07:53 AM
francoisadt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapler90210

I don't understand what you're asking here.

My Apology I misunderstood what others have written below, thought it was two different
types of PCBs.
My question in essence is that: Is swapping PCBs allowed even if it is the same type of PCDs
then?

Second question:
What real proof is this then that he has cheated if the same type of PCB is displayed? If he did
play a DK game on a DK Jnr PCB is that allowed?

Question 3:
Exhibit A - 000046
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 46/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

if one do play two type of DK games using the same cabinet then swapping PCB before game
play should be allowed. Just plug them in do the wiring and play?

09-25-2017, 08:53 AM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

Second question:
What real proof is this then that he has cheated if the same type of PCB is displayed? If he did
play a DK game on a DK Jnr PCB is that allowed?

You can't play a DK game on a DK Jr PCB. They're different games. There is no DK PCB in
the video, so the questions are:

1) How did he play and set the DK record live that day as claimed if there was no DK PCB
present?
2) Why did they make a fake video that claimed to be showing a "board swap" when there
was no actual "board swap"?

09-25-2017, 08:59 AM
BenMullen
yep

Just read through a bit on this score on the DK forum, watch some of the videos etc... Seems
pretty scammy. I think I would call the score either fake, or at least unverifiable to the point
that it should not be on a record site. It remains not only here but on the DK forum as well
(which is really more official in the context of DK, so that is interesting).

One tricky bit is its involvement in a movie. People might come looking for it so this could be
a lone instance where an asterisk is in order.

Heck Mr. Mitchell himself would likely simply concede that this is not even that good a score
by modern standards so what the heck right?

I say vote yes.

09-25-2017, 09:31 AM
JJT_Defender

Twin Galaxy Members Were Voting on Did Billy L. Mitcheel Score 1,062,800 on the Arcade
Game Donkey Kong

1. If their is Video Evidence & Pictures of the of the Score 1,062,800 on Arcade Game
Donkey Kong then their is No Problem it gets Accepted

Regardless of the Wild Odd Video's it was like a TV show and the Many Questions that came
along with them

Twin Galaxy Members Keep Focused the Main thing is Did Billy Mitcheel Score 1,062,800
on the Arcade Game Donkey Kong if their is Video Evidence of the Score then Vote YES
Accept or was it Based on his Word & Hersey from other People then Vote NO don't Accept

Really Easy Not Complicated Exhibit A - 000047

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 47/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Score 1,062,800 on the Arcade Game Donkey Kong Score 1,062,800 on the Arcade Game
Donkey Kong

JJT_Defender Johnny World Champion & Worlds Best & # 1 Racer, 1st Place on the Modern
Arcade Game Fast & Furious Super Cars 43 Cities, & 7 Years Created by Raw Thrills &
Owned By Eugene Jarvis Vid Kidz Williams,Midway & Creator of Cruis'n Series & Defender
Many More.

These are Just Stats for my Record Keeping Log been their More than a Year

Submission Points 13,366 + 60 for Sponsor = 13,426

I JJT Johnny Correctly Adjudicated 13,426 Video Game Submissions at .99777% Percent
Accuracy

Adjudicated Video Game Submissions I JJT Johnny Got Wrong a Total of 30 in Twin
Galaxy's Adjudication Archives Accepted, Rejected & Cancel Archives

09-25-2017, 10:36 AM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMullen

Seems pretty scammy. I think I would call the score either fake, or at least unverifiable to the
point that it should not be on a record site. It remains not only here but on the DK forum as
well (which is really more official in the context of DK, so that is interesting).

A current rule of the DK forum high score list (http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?

topic=366.0) is that scores accepted at TG are automatically included in the list. That is why
this score is listed on the DK Forum High Score List. If this dispute was accepted and the
score was removed from TG, it would certainly be removed from the DK forum high score
list as well.

That said, this score dispute review of this 1,062,800 score at TG was started by Jeremy
Young who is currently the principal maintainer of the DK Forum High Score List (username
xelnia on the DK Forums and here on the TG forums).

09-25-2017, 08:29 PM
xelnia

George is generally correct about DKF accepting TG scores. This used to be explicitly
defined in the DKF ruleset, but has been removed for two reasons: 1) The rules went through
Exhibit A - 000048
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 48/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

a massive rewrite, for simplification and clarity. This was done in large part to help players
whose first language might not be English (a situation I dealt with first-hand while living in
Japan). 2) With the TGSAP system, all evidence can be examined directly, so there's no need
to rely on TG's stamp of approval for a score. Any score submitted to TG will always be
given a TG source credit, however.

All pre-TGSAP scores (including this one under dispute) fell under the umbrella of Corey
Chamber's original vision: accept all DK scores from reputable leaderboards (TG, MARP,
etc.). While I'm currently the principal maintainer of the DKF leaderboard, @stella_blue also
put in an enormous amount of crucial work. He could chime in regarding our process if he
wishes. I believe there has only been one strict removal of a TG score from the DKF
leaderboard without any sort of community discussion/involvement: Jonathan Hale's score of
100 points. This was due to him admitting to hacking the TG database at one point and
"leaving breadcrumbs" on the scoreboard. Some DK3 scores have been re-classified (but not
removed) when their INPs became available and it was found that they were played on the
wrong settings, despite being accepted by TG.

I acknowledge the low possibility of this dispute being successful, and that's the primary
reason Billy's scores still stand on DKF...all we really have is a long history of shady behavior
with no real smoking gun. I had hoped that raising the dispute on TG would've helped with
that. And if this score does get removed, which of his scores do we put in its place...the
equally shady 1,050,200 or 1,047,200? Or one of his actually public 900k games?

10-11-2017, 07:24 PM
Robert.F

So is this feasible with the sale of TG; dose Billy have a A contractual agreement
A gag order a kick you in the teeth leagalaty thing ?
Why has billy not been hang

Too many puppies are being shot in the dark.

Too many puppies are trained not to bark.

10-15-2017, 07:53 AM
RTM

As a matter of historical record (I'm not voting in this thread)...

-> The 1.014M which I verified from Bill...mentioned on page 1 of this thread...was only
submitted to TG AFTER I received the 1.006M tape from Steve Wiebe.

Bill was totally miffed that TG was potentially going to acknowledge Steve's run as the 1st-
ever 1M score. So what he DID was this...

Steve's 999,500 run (never logged into TG) was received shortly before the 1.006M around
7/02-7/05 range if I remember correctly. Then news of the 1M came in.

There was an August event in NYC which Walter and Billy were both speakers for at Lincoln
Center. I was there in attendance as was "Arkanoid" record holder Zak Hample and a few
others who came in to see. For this event, Bill brought in his tape and had it playing in the
lobby for the hour prior to the event, and then he publicly announced at the event that he had
done what no one thought was possible and scored 1M on DK.

Billy told me...not via E-MAIL but over the phone...that when he found out Steve had got 1M
Exhibit A - 000049
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 49/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

he called Steve to congratulate him BUT told him that he had done so a year earlier.

Bill was annoyed that at inception I was prepared to acknowledge Steve's tape as the 1st-TG-
verified 1M...he said he did his earlier and told Steve as much, but Steve is the one who sent
the tape in.

I had a 30+ page article written on the world's first TWO 1M point games...not indicating
which had come first...but that article never made it into TG because of the Brian Kuh
revelation as highlighted in KoK about Steve's boards. We had at that point a "fool me once,
shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" position, to be honest.

Being that Steve's tape was not being accepted as initially planned Bill withdrew his
submission of the 1.014M performance.

It was an ego thing. Back in 2000/2001 during an MTV interview, Bill gave a speech about
how he had something planned that would be if accomplished the biggest thing in gaming
ever. Quite the hype. At the first Mall of America event, I told Bill in person what I thought
he meant by this if I were him, and I've stated this within the TG forum...I felt that he would
be going for a simultaneous re-capture of all 5 of his old records (DK, DK Jr, Burgertime, etc)
and that would include 1M on DK, 1M on DK Jr, etc.

HE TOLD ME...with Dwayne Richard walking by right next to us but I doubt Dwayne would
remember after 17 years..."Who told you that ?" and I told Bill that if I were him, that's what I
would do. And then he told me that I was the closest to guessing what he had intended. he can
deny this conversation all he wants but I know dang well what he told me back then with
crystal clarity.

Anyway, point being, his hand was forced when Steve did the 1M submission on DK so he
rushed announcing his 1.014M only to have it rescinded. In effect...someone else stole his
thunder. Like I said, it was an ego-thing.

-> As for the board-swapping. I never actually saw his 1.062M performance, I only read
about it. But also as a matter of historical record, I had refused to validate Steve Wiebe's
1.049M performance on related grounds. He botched the filming of the board inside the
machine both immediately after it was inserted and again after the performance ended.
Therefore, had this performance come by way (Bill's 1.062M) I have to imagine that in line
with my decision on Steve's 1.049M performance I would also have not accepted the 1.062M
by Bill. On technical grounds alone, but such decisions have to be called based on the letter of
the law.

10-15-2017, 06:33 PM
xelnia

@RTM Thanks for the history. I've actually been meaning to ask you a couple of questions.

1) Do you remember if the 1.014M score you reviewed was a direct feed tape or a recording
of a live performance? If it was live, do you remember the circumstances around it (was it
filmed at home, at a local arcade, etc.)?
2) Is there any way to accurately date either the 1.014M or 1.047M scores, either absolutely
or in relation to each other or Wiebe's early 1M+ scores?
3) For @RTM , @timmell , @Barthax , @Ripper , and any other former TG refs who
might be reading this: Have any of you seen, or are you aware of (without a doubt), video
footage of the LIVE performances of Billy's 1.014M, 1.047M, 1.05M, or 1.062M scores? I'm
talking about real, over-the-shoulder, clear camcorder footage of these games...not direct feed,
Exhibit A - 000050
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 50/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

not post-game high score tables, post-game board swaps, or anything else like that.

Moving on...there has been a lot of discussion recently, off TG, about the methods Billy used
to record his previous scores. This discussion has focused around whether the available
footage has truly been generated by a Donkey Kong PCB, or something entirely different, like
a PC video card. There is very little footage for THIS score, but some can be seen in an earlier
post by @timmell :

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

here is footage of Billy Announcing the record, Don't if it has anything worthwhile. The end
of the video is great with Mr. Awesome.

http://persistentproductions.net/tgi/mitchell2010.mp4

While he's not a TG member, DK/DKJR remix developer Sock Master has some observations
that are worth noting. I'm posting some excerpts of our conversations here:

This deals directly with this 1.062 scores, as seen in Sroka's video:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sock Master

In the Billy Mitchell videos announcing his record where we see gameplay in two monitors...
There is *WAYYYYY* too much blank area around all four edges of the screen. DK output
pretty much fills the entire screen at the sides and there is very little vertical blanking
(horizontal to us once to the monitor is rotated) in the video signal.

Originally Posted by Sock Master

DK hardware, created in 1980, which was never intended to generate broadcast quality video
does a pretty poor job of following standards so it's actually a lot different from standard. The
timing of it's signal elements is non-conforming. It omits a lot of signals.. It just generates the
minimum it needed for a monitor to display something reasonable and uses the least amount
of electronic components to do it.

A PC video card on the other hand makes an effort to do things to standards and
specifications. It's more modern. Electronic components are cheaper and more capable in the
2000s. A PC generates all the calibration and sync signal elements to keep monitors happy.
PCs also support features like colored borders, etc.

When a VCR records video, it records the video signals - even the ones outside of the visible
portion of the screen onto the tape. Normally we don't get to see these signals unless we use
an oscilloscope, but if the tape is damaged, the rotating head slows down when it hits
damaged/wrinkled portions of the tape. When it slows down, the recording loses sync with
the source video and we can see these signals shift into the visible picture area.

Vertically (horizontal to us because the monitor is sideways), DK hardware generates a simple

video signal. It outputs exactly 224 scan lines of picture data, then exactly 40 blank lines of
black between frames. Halfway through those 40 lines it generates a simple vertical sync
pulse which lasts 3 or 4 lines (between 3 or 4 depending on the position of the knobs on the
Exhibit A - 000051
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 51/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

back of the video PCB because the circuit generating the signal is pretty dodgy)

For reference, 40 scan lines is exactly the width of 5 girder tiles in the game screen. We can
use ratios of 'girder tile lengths' to estimate widths of signals outside of the visible portion of
the screen even in blurry youtube videos

...[t]his also shows *how difficult* it is to generate a signal that a VCR can record from DK's
dodgy video. It's really improbable that anyone had actually gone through all the trouble to
successfully do this in the early 2000s.

With all of that in mind, I ask you to take a look at the known direct feed recordings of Billy's
games. Perhaps there others out there with knowledge of PCBs, PC video, and VCRs that can
chime in. At any rate, these videos don't directly relate to the 1.062M under dispute, but might
be useful to establish a pattern of behavior that IS directly related.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxE1amo6QxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obx10--ftL0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoLYQxJ0g7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_JfLRIiiQw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe28rDdJ7xQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GilzqqNYiyE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfk0WxlSqpo

10-15-2017, 06:50 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

@RTM Thanks for the history. I've actually been meaning to ask you a couple of questions.1)
Do you remember if the 1.014M score you reviewed was a direct feed tape or a recording of a
live performance? If it was live, do you remember the circumstances around it (was it filmed
at home, at a local arcade, etc.)?2) Is there any way to accurately date either the 1.014M or
1.047M scores, either absolutely or in relation to each other or Wiebe's early 1M+ scores?3)
For @RTM , @timmell , @Barthax , @Ripper , and any other former TG refs who might
be reading this: Have any of you seen, or are you aware of (without a doubt), video footage of
the LIVE performances of Billy's 1.014M, 1.047M, 1.05M, or 1.062M scores? I'm talking
about real, over-the-shoulder, clear camcorder footage of these games...not direct feed, not
post-game high score tables, post-game board swaps, or anything else like that.

RTM REPLY - dang, not allowing me to use bold, underline and colour again...I tell you,
replying on the TG forum is totally inconsistent :(As for the questions above...1st - the
1.014M was definitely direct feed...I am 100% positive of this2nd - the dates...you are not
going to like this. Bill turned in the 1.014M AFTER Steve turned in the 1.006M and
BEFORE Aug15th of that year as he presented it at the NYC Lincoln Center event. However
Bill CLAIMS that he did the score approx a full year earlier. There is absolutely no way to
verify that claim. As for the 1.047M...I can only tell you when the score was presented. It was
during the May 2005 ACAM event, and to be more specific Thursday of that very week was
when "part 1" of the performance was shown in the Cram cabin (referred to in KoK as "Brian
Kuh's Cabin"). However, Billy did this obviously before the event. He ALSO did this at some
point after Steve Wiebe's original 947,200 score because Billy intentionally made the score
1,047,200 points. 3rd - I have only personally seen VHS footage of the 1.014M and 1.047M
scores. I never saw any subsequent score. I DID, however, see Billy playing live at ACAM
way, way back in either 1999 or 2000 when he died in the mid-300K range in an elevator
Exhibit A - 000052
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 52/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

stage on his 1st life and immediately quit playing...that was the famous event which was the
catalyst for Billy's claim that the Funspot machine was "possessed". A fun factoid to be sure.

10-15-2017, 06:51 PM
RTM

Any idea why the TG forum reply eliminated all the blank lines in my last reply ? I was
unable to use bold-face, underline and colour as well.

10-16-2017, 12:17 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

1st - the 1.014M was definitely direct feed...I am 100% positive of this

Do you recall any statements from Billy as to why this was, or why he only submitted direct
feed footage for all of his DK games?

On an unrelated note, I recently watched a Steve Wiebe interview from 2009 in which he
claims that he submitted an 885k DK score to TG around 2002, which was accepted. He says
this was done on the same Double DK as the 947k, but it's incredibly significant if there was
an 885k score before the 947k...it would have been the world record! That interview (with
Mark Alpiger) was the first and only time I've heard of such a score. Do you know anything
about it?

10-16-2017, 03:50 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Do you recall any statements from Billy as to why this was, or why he only submitted direct
feed footage for all of his DK games?

RTM REPLY - I might only be able to answer partially on these queries.

As to Billy, I have never heard from either himself or from his buddy Chris as to why he
engages in direct feed for DK. I won't even hazard a guess as it would be pure speculation.

I never heard of an 885K from Steve. After the 947K his very next submission was 985K...a
score which nearly mirrored what he had done at ACAM in 2005. The 985K was around May
of 2004. Towards the end of June 2004 he did 999,500 an then a few days after that 1.006M.

Exhibit A - 000053
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 53/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I have NO idea why Steve said 885K was TG-accepted in 2002 when his 947K score has
remained for quite awhile before it was yanked due to DDK revelations.

10-16-2017, 11:20 PM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

3) For [...] @Barthax , and any other former TG refs who might be reading this: Have any of
you seen, or are you aware of (without a doubt), video footage of the LIVE performances of
Billy's 1.014M, 1.047M, 1.05M, or 1.062M scores? I'm talking about real, over-the-shoulder,
clear camcorder footage of these games...not direct feed, not post-game high score tables,
post-game board swaps, or anything else like that.

That's an easy answer for myself: I never took part in any Arcade submissions during my
tenure. Just for clarity: MAME was a different platform back then as it is now and I did help
queue-bust for MAME irregularly (it was, by far, the most popular platform).

11-20-2017, 11:38 AM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

This raises many questions, but here's what stands out in my mind.

1) If everything was performed and recorded legitimately, why go through the motions to
record a board swap video using only a DKJR board? And then why mute the video?

4) Billy's previous 1M+ scores all had some sort of video evidence. The quality of that
Exhibit A - 000054
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 54/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

evidence has been questioned, but they at least exist. A 1.014M tape was viewed by Robert
Mruczek but never submitted to TG. Billy's 1.047M and 1.05M are "direct feed"
performances, claimed to be live, but with no actual known witnesses.

5) Billy has never demonstrated live that he capable of the scores that TG gives him credit for.
He has never scored over 1,000,000 in a live, neutral venue.

Originally Posted by gstrain

Indeed it is.

11-20-2017, 09:46 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

RTM REPLY - it is worth noting that pre-2007, Todd was formally recognized and
empowered as a senior referee, and that allowed the privilege of verifying a live score without
the need for a second person to witness.

Post-2006 is a different matter. From what I know, succeeding TG management (Bouvier) at

some point created and implemented a new set of rules and guidelines for referees. I'm not
sure what privileges referees were granted during this administration and how they might
have varied based on their role.

Exhibit A - 000055
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 55/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If, for sake of argument, the same privileges were maintained, then there was nothing
technically wrong with Todd verifying Billy's "live" performance in 2010. If his role and
privileges changed under the Bouvier administration, only someone familiar with the new
guidelines could definitively confirm whether Todd's role at that time continued to allow
single-referee validation of "live" scores.

11-22-2017, 07:34 AM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Indeed it is.

Thanks Jeremy.

Also, if there is no video showing any environmental evidence, how can you tell from the
videos that it wasn't just played in MAME or was a video of a MAME replay?

11-22-2017, 11:21 AM
Robert.F
just thinking

it never accord to me before , but in one video Rob`s demonstrating a pcb swap (all of watch
we know now was stage) anyhow that not my point ,,, so rob puts in the DKjr pcb and billy
play`s then after the game record was set , there another video with billy giving rob **** for
being so late,,, in Robs words "he pull me out of bed" you mean to say Rob when home to bed
well Billy play ? lol how long did it take for billy to get the record maybe 3 hour`s? not
including games he fail to set the record and how many of them did he do? So Todd was there
with the Tapes in a bag for a live event? was Todd not the referee at the time and why not,,,,
all this thinking hurting my brain :)

11-22-2017, 12:04 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

Thanks Jeremy.

One other thing I noticed looking at these videos is that none of the Donkey Kong gameplay
in any of Billy's available gameplay footage for any of his 1M+ games ever shows the actual
arcade cabinet during gameplay or has any sound. Were such submissions generally accepted
by TG at the time? I've heard that additional scrutiny was given to some of Steve Wiebe's
Donkey Kong submissions because of sound discrepancies that indicated the use of a Double
Donkey Kong board or an 8-way joystick. If there's not sound on Billy's videos, how can they
be subjected to the same scrutiny? Exhibit A - 000056
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 56/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I would say the level of scrutiny for different players was...inconsistent. @RTM can
obviously provide better insight to what the culture and thought-process was at the time, but
here's how I see it:

-Tim Sczerby's 879k world record in August 2000 was accepted by TG, without any apparent
walk-through of his cab, just complete footage of the gameplay.

-Steve Wiebe claims, in an interview with Mark Alpiger in February 2009, that TG accepted
an 885k score from him in 2002, which would have been the arcade world record. There is no
apparent record of this game anywhere other than that interview.

-If memory serves, Wiebe's 947k game (June 2003) was DQ'd for being on Double DK and
his 1.006M game (July 2004) was DQ'd for using an 8-way joystick and the possibility that
Roy Shildt was involved. The scores between 947k and 1.006M were simply just never
verified (985k in May 2004 and 999k in June 2004). Wiebe's 1.049M game (August 2006)
was DQ'd for breaking continuity during the post-game verification process. From the looks
of it, every single score Wiebe submitted between 2003 and 2006 was ultimately either
rejected or never verified. His current TG-verified PB (1.064M) is from August 2010, four
years after the 1.049M, but I don't know anything about how that game was recorded,
submitted, or verified.

-As far as Billy Mitchell is concerned:

-1.014M ("revealed" July 2004) - Submitted in response to Wiebe's 1.006M. The

circumstances around the performance (location, exact date) are unknown. Confirmed as a
direct feed submission by @RTM although he would have to comment on whether there was
audio or any sort of known external footage that accompanied it. This submission was later
retracted when Wiebe's 1.006M was rejected.

-1.047M ("revealed" June 2005) - The "King of Kong" score. Submitted as a direct feed with
no sound and, as far as I know, no external footage of any kind. Initially accepted right away,
but later removed and reinstated. @RTM knows the history of that better than anyone, I
reckon. As with the 1.014M the circumstances around the recording are unknown, other than
Billy claiming that it happened in front of "crowds and crowds of people":

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/32378833?t=11m15s

"But the game itself was actually played in a room in front of, you know, crowds and crowds
of people. And I never actually had...I never actually had access, um, to the board."

-1.05M (July 2007) - The Florida Mortgage Brokers score. This game was supposedly done at
an 80s-themed party during the convention of the aforementioned brokers. The only known
footage of it is direct feed with no sound. I am unaware of any external footage of this game
or any footage of Billy at this event. However, I don't know if this was submitted to TG as a
video performance or verified as a live performance by a referee. Embattled former TG ref
Todd Rogers was supposedly on-hand to witness this game, as were some other unknown and
unidentified witnesses (supposedly a Gamestop manager and someone from a security firm to
verify the chain of custody of the DK PCB, I think). Whatever the circumstances, it was
accepted by TG.

-1.06M (July 2010) - The subject of this dispute. Supposedly performed at Boomer's in
Florida. The only external footage related to this game are the clearly staged videos posted by
Robert Childs. The extremely minimal gameplay footage claimed to be from this performance
Exhibit A - 000057
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 57/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

(and the accompanying DKJR performance) are direct feed, and only visible on monitors in
videos shot from the crowd when Billy was announcing the scores. Comments by former
referees indicate that no TG referee ever saw this gameplay footage and it was voted on and
accepted under pressure. Todd Rogers was also a supposed live witness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

Also, if there is no video showing any environmental evidence, how can you tell from the
videos that it wasn't just played in MAME or was a video of a MAME replay?

There is something that can be measured, but it depends heavily on the quality of the video
and the potential version of MAME. Earlier versions of MAME use a 60 Hz refresh rate for
Donkey Kong, instead of the 60.606060... Hz used in new versions. While this is completely
unnoticeable moment-to-moment for a player or viewer, it creates a measurable difference
over long periods. For example, a 100,000 frame INP of DK in MAME 0.106 at 100% speed
would be 27:46.666 in length. The same 100,000 frame INP in current versions would be
27:30 in length at 100% speed. I've done some preliminary examinations of the spring boards
in Billy's available direct feed games. Since the spring board offers the longest uninterrupted
view of the bonus timer, these are the best boards to measure. The direct feed games
definitely seem to have an unusual amount of lengthening in them, but more work is required
to verify it.

11-22-2017, 02:18 PM
Max

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

The direct feed games definitely seem to have an unusual amount of lengthening in them, but
more work is required to verify it.

I may have missed a previous explanation of this, but you mention that numerous recordings
contain no sound. How might not having sound relate to the validity of a submission? For
what purpose might a gamer not record with sound other than an occasional recording error?

11-22-2017, 04:25 PM
RTM

HI Xelnia:

LOTS to comment on so I'll handle it in sections as that works best for me...

Xelnia said - I would say the level of scrutiny for different players was...inconsistent. @RTM
can obviously provide better insight to what the culture and thought-process was at the time,
but here's how I see it:

-Tim Sczerby's 879k world record in August 2000 was accepted by TG, without any apparent
walk-through of his cab, just complete footage of the gameplay.

RTM REPLY - sadly I never got to see this performance as it was verified before I was part
of TG...can't confirm the specifics one way or another nor do I know who verified this one

Exhibit A - 000058
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 58/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Xelnia said -Steve Wiebe claims, in an interview with Mark Alpiger in February 2009, that
TG accepted an 885k score from him in 2002, which would have been the arcade world
record. There is no apparent record of this game anywhere other than that interview.

RTM REPLY - this is very strange...my recollection of the sequence of Steve's submissions
to TG thru end of 2006 is quite clear, yet I have no recollection of verifying a score of 885K.
Maybe Walter verified that one ? If Steve said he did it I am not doubting that, I just know it
would have been verified by someone other than myself, that's all.

Xelnia said -If memory serves, Wiebe's 947k game (June 2003) was DQ'd for being on
Double DK and his 1.006M game (July 2004) was DQ'd for using an 8-way joystick and the
possibility that Roy Shildt was involved. The scores between 947k and 1.006M were simply
just never verified (985k in May 2004 and 999k in June 2004). Wiebe's 1.049M game
(August 2006) was DQ'd for breaking continuity during the post-game verification process.
From the looks of it, every single score Wiebe submitted between 2003 and 2006 was
ultimately either rejected or never verified. His current TG-verified PB (1.064M) is from
August 2010, four years after the 1.049M, but I don't know anything about how that game
was recorded, submitted, or verified.

RTM REPLY - to the best of my recollection, Steve's 985K on VHS tape arrived or was
submitted on May25-29/04. His 999,500 score arrived just a few days, a week at most, before
the 1.006M which arrived very early within the range of Jul01-04/04. The 985K was being
cross-verified at my request and unless my memory is off, that's the performance which was
no longer on DDK BUT was started with coins already inserted which, as the cross-verifier
informed me, blocked showing the splash screen which was key to seeing the copyright info
at the bottom of the screen. The 999K score was verified but by the time it was the 1.006M
score was either announced or in-hand.

Those with long memories and forum access may recall that the actual write-up on the
1.006M score was done along with an accompanying EXCEL breakdown...it was never
published once word got out that Steve had Roy Shildt-provided boardsets and that needed to
be further investigated due to Roy's longtime efforts to blow one past TG. Anyone interested
in seeing the write-ups and the EXCEL file, please drop me a PM with your E-MAIL address
and I will be happy to send out.

Xelnia said -As far as Billy Mitchell is concerned:

-1.014M ("revealed" July 2004) - Submitted in response to Wiebe's 1.006M. The

RTM REPLY - there's a long story behind this one and I am sure I chronicled it multiple
times on the forum but here goes.

Billy was annoyed that TG was prepared to announce and validate Steve's 1M score as the
"first TG-verified 1M on DK" because Billy claimed he did it first, the difference though was
that Steve actually mailed it in for validation but Billy did not. I told Walter fair is fair and
Steve would have to be acknowledged for being first. Behind the scenes, Billy said he
contacted Steve to congratulate him on the 1M and according to Billy he told Steve that
approx a year prior he had achieved 1.014M. Nice way to burst the guy's bubble, Bill.

Around this time...post-receipt of the 1.006M tape and Aug/04, the discovery of those Shildt-
Exhibit A - 000059
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 59/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

supplied boards in Steve's garage was found as part of Brian Kuh's visit to Steve's home
accompanied by Perry Rodgers. New of this was later included in KoK though spun in such a
way that it made it sound like this was a TG plot to break-and-enter without permission into
Steve's home, but that's another matter.

Anyway, plans to announce the two 1M scores were put on-hold when the Kuh-discovery was
made. Now here is where my memory is shaky. Either immediately before this discovery or
after it, there was an Aug/04 event in NYC's Lincoln Center attended by Walter and Billy as
speakers, and at THAT event Billy brought out a copy of his tape to be shown in the entrance
area on a TV that was stood on it's side, and at the event itself when speaking Billy revealed
his "world's first 1M score on DK" taking full credit for being first even though he knew
damn well another performance by Steve was undergoing verification.

This was Bill's ego coming out. In 2000 on MTV he made a big announcement that he would
do something so big that it had never been done before in gaming. My personal speculation,
which I shared with him at the first Mall of America event, was that he would reclaim all five
of his previous records inclusive of a 1M on DK, 1M on DK Jr, 1M on Ms Pacman, and
reclaiming Burgertime and one other title. So here is Steve with 1M and his thunder was
stolen as he did nothing towards this big announcement since 2000. Steve already had 1M
officially on DK Jr and now he had submitted the first 1M on DK. Thunder stolen.

As for the specifics of Bill's tape...no sound and direct feed, I am 100% certain of this.

Xelnia said -1.047M ("revealed" June 2005) - The "King of Kong" score. Submitted as a
direct feed with no sound and, as far as I know, no external footage of any kind. Initially
accepted right away, but later removed and reinstated. @RTM knows the history of that
better than anyone, I reckon. As with the 1.014M the circumstances around the recording are
unknown, other than Billy claiming that it happened in front of "crowds and crowds of
people":

"But the game itself was actually played in a room in front of, you know, crowds and crowds
of people. And I never actually had...I never actually had access, um, to the board."

RTM REPLY - another long story accompanies this one and it is most distasteful. Although
this is 13 years ago I remember it very clearly. Here goes.

The annual ACAM event was about to take place and typically occurs on a Thurs-Sun. Billy
announced he was sending Greg Erway a special tape in the mail for us to watch in the cabin.
On the first night of the event, we were in my cabin watching this tape, or rather started to,
and it was NOT Donkey Kong but rather some TV show. Billy said to Greg he accidentally
sent the wrong tape. Now pay attention as this is going to be VERY telling.

Billy arranges to have a tape specially sent to Brian Kuh to pick up at the airport to be
delivered to us at Funspot on Friday to watch in the cabin. There is actual film footage of
Brian Kuh picking up the tape as per Bill's instructions. Now, ask yourself...why the HECK
would anyone be filming that ? Keep this in mind.

Evening comes and this tape is shown at what is called in KoK "Brian Kuh's Cabin"...it is
actually Sun Valley's "The Lodge", a large triple-trailer sized cabin and 30+ people are
watching. I remember this well because the guests made such a loud noise and overstayed so
late that they were NOT allowed to watch this second third of the tape on the following night.
Exhibit A - 000060
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 60/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Supposedly, Steve Wiebe was not allowed to watch this because Bill had given Brian express
orders not to show the tape to Steve if he showed.

Saturday came. In my cabin (cottage 5) we watched the "second third". Steve and Mark
Alpiger happened to be in my cabin chatting along with many others when Kuh showed up
and said he could not show the rest of the tape with them present. They left, probably very
insulted (especially Steve). Walter was present as well as one of the film crews present (Ross
Tuttle, I believe and his co-film maker Josh). Other gamers were present as well. We watched
and when the "second third ended Kuh shut it off with the intent to show the rest the
following day (Saturday), however after the other gamers left, Kuh remained as did Walter
and I forget who else, and we continued to watch the rest on our own. It was at this point we
discovered Bill sent us a copy as there was a major glitch as the score rolled at 1M points.
Thus...at the cabin...we discussed that the score could not be accepted. Again, Walter was
present...keep this in mind.

Saturday came. Kuh was out of control and attempting to place a TV set on TOP of the
ACAM DK machine and have Bill's performance played WHILE Steve Wiebe was possibly
playing DK below. UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE :(

Gary Vincent shut that s**t down and Kuh was relegated to having an empty table set up in
the back of ACAM, approx 15 feet from the Nintendo row where DK was, and the
performance was shown there in the entirety. Meanwhile, right around the bend, Steve set a
DK arcade record live of 985K surrounded by the pressure of dozens of people...including
Kuh who was at time standing over him like a hawk, and unlike some gamers Steve delivered
live under immense pressure. Everyone applauded.

Unbeknownst to myself, as is caught on film by KoK, Walter was filmed sitting on a chair at
the back of ACAM talking to Bill and asking him if he wanted the score verified. This is
AFTER we determined the night before in the cabin that it could not be. In fact, Walter was
ALSO filmed entering Randy Lawton's private office, logging onto the TG website and
personally keying in Bill's new record, all in an effort to keep Bill on top. Meanwhile,
Steve...who bothered to show up live (and delivered), he gets shafted in the process and his
thunder was stolen.

AFTERMATH - Two important things happened both on Sunday after Steve got the 985K
and the following Monday after the event ended.

Sunday - Walter SAID to me that Bill's intent was that anyone who could beat the score in
question would get $10,000. Obviously with no one else ever reporting let along attaining
1M, that was a safe bet. Additionally, Bill's score of 1.047M was intentional, something I
have little respect for as a competitive gamer. He intentionally orchestrated his game so that
he rolled the score to all zeros in the level 20 elevator stage them he slow-played the game to
finish up with 1,047,200 which was exactly 100,000 points more than Steve's original TG
submission of 947,200 and then Bill killed off the rest of his lives just to show that he could.
CLearcut grandstanding, plain and simple.

Monday - I'm still chief refeee and a TG Board of Directors member at this time in 2004. I
am at work and checking the TG website during lunch and see on the front page Bill's score.
Back in the early ACAM days I would drive home early Sunday thus missing the ACAM
awards ceremony, and it was during this time (post 2:00pm) that Walter entered the score into
the TG database.

SO, I called fellow Board member Brien King and we agreed to yank down that score due to
the "glitch" at 1M. Anyone who owns the KoK DVD, listen to director comments and you
Exhibit A - 000061
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 61/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

will hear them talking about how I took that score down...it is not in the movie to make me
look like I was part of the conspiracy, but in the director comments they confirm my action
taken.

Months later Bill sent the original 1.014M tape for verification, BTW.

Xelnia said -1.05M (July 2007) - The Florida Mortgage Brokers score. This game was
supposedly done at an 80s-themed party during the convention of the aforementioned brokers.
The only known footage of it is direct feed with no sound. I am unaware of any external
footage of this game or any footage of Billy at this event. However, I don't know if this was
submitted to TG as a video performance or verified as a live performance by a referee.
Embattled former TG ref Todd Rogers was supposedly on-hand to witness this game, as were
some other unknown and unidentified witnesses (supposedly a Gamestop manager and
someone from a security firm to verify the chain of custody of the DK PCB, I think).
Whatever the circumstances, it was accepted by TG.

RTM REPLY - I never actually saw this one. However, it was either Todd or Billy who told
me that while the game was performed, there were two (2) cameras working at the same
time...one was direct feed. The other was poised at the second floor balcony/mezzanine level,
whatever it was called, and was filming Bill playing from an overhead perspective.

I have no idea as to whether the tape(s) contained sound or not, nor who verified the
performance other than Todd.

Xelnia said -1.06M (July 2010) - The subject of this dispute. Supposedly performed at
Boomer's in Florida. The only external footage related to this game are the clearly staged
videos posted by Robert Childs. The extremely minimal gameplay footage claimed to be from
this performance (and the accompanying DKJR performance) are direct feed, and only visible
on monitors in videos shot from the crowd when Billy was announcing the scores. Comments
by former referees indicate that no TG referee ever saw this gameplay footage and it was
voted on and accepted under pressure. Todd Rogers was also a supposed live witness.

RTM REPLY - on this point I cannot contribute at all as I have very little info or knowledge
of this event.

11-22-2017, 04:27 PM
Riatoju

Exhibit A - 000062
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 62/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

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blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

11-22-2017, 04:28 PM
Riatoju

Exhibit A - 000063
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 63/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Just kidding RTM, you know I love you <3

11-22-2017, 04:29 PM
RTM

One small tidbit - I am guessing that "@RTM" creates some social-media-based tag of a sort
to get that person's attention.

If so, I haven't a clue how that works as I neither own a SmartPhone nor use any text-
messaging app.

So no need to tag a post like that. Send me a PM to draw my attention to something...I'm very
"old school" when it comes to messaging.

11-22-2017, 05:21 PM
RTM
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Just kidding RTM, you know I love you <3

RTM REPLY - you are of course referring to your enjoyment of my lengthy forum replies
and shared anecdotes, otherwise...

Attachment 44618

11-22-2017, 06:56 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max

For DK, not having sound can mask some tell-tale signs of MAME usage. Earlier versions of
MAME did not emulate the DK sounds very well, relying on WAV samples instead. It wasn't
until version 0.116 or thereabouts that full emulation of all sounds was implemented, and
there is a very clear difference. Sound quality aside, older versions of MAME don't (or can't)
emulate the true sound of a DK machine being switched on. On a real machine, this initial and
distinctive "squawk" sound is the result of all the game sounds being played simultaneously.
In older MAME, this sound was replaced with Donkey Kong's "growl" sound on boot up. On
a related note, when MAME boots up DK, the rug pattern is all 0s, in different colors, every
time. When a real machine boots up or is reset, the rug pattern is still multi-colored, but filled
with random graphical garbage. None of the available footage of Billy's games show any sort
of boot up or reset.

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000064
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 64/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by RTM

One small tidbit - I am guessing that "@RTM" creates some social-media-based tag of a sort
to get that person's attention.

If so, I haven't a clue how that works as I neither own a SmartPhone nor use any text-
messaging app.

So no need to tag a post like that. Send me a PM to draw my attention to something...I'm very
"old school" when it comes to messaging.

It's not intended for any outside social media. I believe it only functions within TG and it
creates a notification in the upper right (the Earth icon) that a person has been mentioned in a
thread.

11-22-2017, 09:07 PM
RTM

[QUOTE=xelnia;932442It's not intended for any outside social media. I believe it only
functions within TG and it creates a notification in the upper right (the Earth icon) that a
person has been mentioned in a thread.[/QUOTE]

RTM REPLY - thanks for the info !!

11-22-2017, 10:22 PM
RTM

Apologies to Xenia...my memory ain't what it used to be.

WEDNESDAY, the day before the ACAM event started, is where we started to watch that
first DK tape in my cabin

THURSDAY, the first day of the event, Kuh brought the tape to show it in the Cram cabin

FRIDAY, the second day of the event, we watched the second third in my cabin.

SATURDAY, that's the day Kuh tried to place the TV set on top of the DK machine at ACAM
and also when STeve set the 985K live while Bill's tape was playing 15 feet away on a TV set
at the back of ACAM

Sorry, got the dates wrong !! It's been awhile :)

Robert

11-25-2017, 06:21 PM
Lauren Tyler

Oh please, give me a break! I vote no!

01-29-2018, 09:54 AM
xelnia

I think it's worth noting that, as of earlier this morning, Todd Roger's Dragster dispute has
been accepted, with the consequence that all of Todd's scores will be removed from TG and
Exhibit A - 000065
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 65/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

he will be banned from submitting scores.

So, to recap:

-One of two supposed live witnesses/refs (Todd) has been outed as a cheater and liar. The
other supposed witness/ref was his girlfriend.
-The only live, in-person footage of this attempt shows no actual gameplay and was staged.
-Hardware experts have cast doubt that any footage available of Billy's gameplay was actually
recorded from a DK PCB.
-A former ref (PSP) has admitted that this particular score was accepted by private ballot, and
not because anyone actually viewed the performance.

01-30-2018, 01:24 AM
RTM

I haven't a formal opinion on the outcome of this dispute, however I did notice something
moments ago that I found to be most...ironic.

As the reply with quote feature can't capture a quote within a quote, here is how to navigate to
what I am referring to within this dispute thread.

08-29-2017, 07:04 PM #49

Post by "D3SCRIDE"

The quote from Patrick Scott Patterson - "To quote Pete Bouvier, the scores were entered "to
shut him up" - So yeah... Billy Mitchell's 2010 Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior scores
were entered into the Twin Galaxies database simply to placate him.. .because he'd brought
pressure to do so."

RTM REPLY - now for the ironic part, and this is VERY ironic all things considered.

Years back when I was first chief referee for TG and we were dealing with Roy Shildt and the
many anecdotes regarding his claim of 1.695M for "Missile Command" at TGTS, what Billy
informed me was that eventually, Roy showed up in-person in Iowa and approached Walter
directly regarding his score at the tail-end of TG's existence, to petition Walter to formally
recognize him as well as two others into the non-existent video game high score hall of fame.

According to Billy, the structure of TG was that it required two (2) "officers" to approve, and
Walter was just one. Billy never agreed to this, and as Billy explained, knowing full well that
TG was going the way of the wind in 1987, Walter agreed to sign Roy's petition just to
(placate him and) make him go away.

So the irony is that the very same situation that Billy described to me as having occurred back
in 1987 between Walter and Roy in Iowa, fast forward 25+ years and we have Bouvier and
Billy instead of Walter and Roy in the respective "roles" in this anecdote.

Like I said...very ironic.

01-30-2018, 06:24 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Exhibit A - 000066
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 66/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

So, to recap:

You do know Patrick Scott Patterson has a personal grudge against Billy Mitchell and has lied
about things in the past such as his accomplishments on Donkey Kong. There is more as well.
Like the allegation his wife entered in his scores. I really don't think he is a very credible
witness.

01-30-2018, 06:36 AM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

-A former ref (PSP) has admitted that this particular score was accepted by private ballot, and
not because anyone actually viewed the performance.

It is worth noting that the aforementioned referee said he did not want to speak out publicly at
that time because he was waiting on a payday from Pete Bouviere and he did not want to risk
that. In other words, he kept quiet about corruption and collusion in hopes of financial reward.
Can you trust anything this guy says?

01-30-2018, 09:37 AM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I guess that would put him on par with Todd in terms of credibility at this point. So, we have a
situation where virtually no one involved in the achievement and verification of this score can
Exhibit A - 000067
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 67/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

be trusted. PSP's account has the potential to be corroborated by any of the other refs who
voted in the secret ballot. And PSP always has the option of posting here and giving a more
thorough account (at least if he's being honest about wanting to see Billy held accountable).

01-30-2018, 05:49 PM
Robert.F
Pete Bouvier gone

will never know about Pete

Bouvier roll he passed away on
September 12, 2017
http://gamesrelated.com/?
p=3284
02-01-2018, 06:06 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

So, to recap:

It's crystal clear that the "footage" confirming live venue game play is an utter farce. DK
Junior boards are apparently used to play DK. The camera developed a pathological fear of
the game screen and any chance of gleaning the displayed (rolled) high score.The dialogue
feels forced and awkward. Cranking out two new high scores back-to-back on games that we
know are incredibly unforgiving is awesome sauce.

And yes, we have a ref in the room who alleged that it was a forced vote driven by the
player's schedule to announce his high scores. There were other refs in the room -- won't any
other ref step forward to support or deny PSP's recollection?
Exhibit A - 000068
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 68/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-01-2018, 08:15 AM
gstrain

I'm having a hard time keeping track of the arguments against this score here. Does anybody
have a PowerPoint or can make a video that summarizes things?

02-01-2018, 09:00 AM
homerwannabee

Apparently new evidence is emerging that Billy Mitchell's game was done on MAME based
on the directfeed screen at the IVGHOF. In fact ALL of Billy Mitchell's games show evidence
of being played on MAME.

02-01-2018, 10:40 AM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by homerwannabee

Interesting. If this is true George, you or someone else please post this evidence here on this
dispute thread. Otherwise, it is circumstantial evidence. So far, all I can see is evidence of
Jeremy's videos of a PCB board swap.

Not all of us here are members on the Donkey Kong Forum.

Thanks... :)

02-01-2018, 12:52 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by homerwannabee

Please be more specific George. If the evidence is apparent, post it here. Otherwise it is
hearsay / conjecture / noise.

02-01-2018, 04:03 PM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Please be more specific George. If the evidence is apparent, post it here. Otherwise it is
hearsay / conjecture / noise.

Be patient ;)
Exhibit A - 000069
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 69/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-01-2018, 04:38 PM
homerwannabee

What many people don't realize, including me before today is that the older versions of
MAME built Donkey Kong boards differently than the Arcade version. With the Arcade
version right before the board is fully built you'll get part half of a board. With the old MAME
version you would have just the springs show up at first, and then all of the board shows up.

Here is a video of Billy Mitchell's 1,050,200 score. Go right before any board transition and
put the speed at 0.25. Then press play and pause a few times. Most likely you won't see the
transition the first or maybe even second time around, but if you play with it enough the "half
board" will show up. What you'll see is springs with no board.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&t=2217s

Now go to any part of Robbie Lakeman's 1,230,100 score. Go right before any board
transition and do the same thing. If you catch the "half board" you'll see more than just
springs. You'll see springs and segments of the board mixed in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJzMCIZzgQ&t=2638s

Arcade builds boards differently than MAME boards. Billy Mitchell's "half boards" look like
old MAME "half boards."

Now, newer MAME doesn't do this. This is only something from "Old MAME"

02-01-2018, 04:49 PM
homerwannabee

Now, to make one thing clear. I did not come up with this information. Some much more
knowledgable about the Donkey Kong code was the one who presented the information.

02-01-2018, 04:51 PM
homerwannabee

Also, I meant ladders with no board. Sorry about that.

02-01-2018, 04:58 PM
WCopeland

George Riley:

Please do not jump the gun on this investigation. Evidence is currently being gathered and
you have put out misrepresentations of facts. A comprehensive post is going to be made about
this matter soon enough in this thread.

02-01-2018, 05:06 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by homerwannabee

Now, to make one thing clear. I did not come up with this information. Some much more
knowledgable about the Donkey Kong code was the one who presented the information.

Who is the source? I think it deserves mentioning? Someone will eventually demand knowing
so I'm asking, haha. This off course will lead into the agenda arguments when you bring forth
Exhibit A - 000070
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 70/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the source so be ready.

02-01-2018, 05:12 PM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

A comprehensive post is forthcoming. George Riley jumped the gun on an investigation that
the Donkey Kong community has been doing, and in the process misrepresented a few facts.

I would like to ask the TG adjudication community to please be patient. A lot of evidence has
been gathered, and we are trying to put it together in a clear and concise way that is easy to
understand. A comprehensive post will be made on this matter soon.

02-01-2018, 05:18 PM
homerwannabee

Yeah, I screwed up. I misinterpreted a major portion of the presentation. Sorry about that.

02-02-2018, 07:35 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwwnp

"...and the altogether low skill level on display -- it looks like someone playing at 1.1+ pace
who doesn't know how to play at 1.1+ pace and at one point late in the game there's a death
that is inconceivable by 1.1+ standards, meaning an action is taken that would never ever be
taken by a legitimate 1.1 player."

RTM REPLY - I'm neither defending nor challenging Bill's scores, but this statement is a bit
unfair.

Don Hayes and I are the world's two best "Super Cobra" players and yet each of us on many
an occasion experiences a game death that is quite "basic" in nature. We screwed up...period.
Should have not allowed such deaths to happen. But they do.

Bottom line is that even the best players can experience a bit of a brain fart in gaming or make
a beginner-level mistake. It happens, though not very often. Still, it can happen.

02-02-2018, 09:23 AM
xelnia

This will be a two-post since there is a limit on the number of images allowed in one post.
Below, you'll find a large collection of animated GIFs. PLEASE take the time to read this
ENTIRE post before jumping to them, and please continue read what is posted AFTER them.
In summary, these GIFs show that each of the Donkey Kong world record direct feed
recordings presented by Billy Mitchell and verified by TG were generated in MAME
Exhibit A - 000071
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 71/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

and not by original Donkey Kong hardware. These scores are: 1,047,200 (the King of
Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score). In
order to demonstrate this, it's necessary to understand how DK images are generated by
MAME versus an original PCB.

Video emulation has changed across MAME versions, but there are basically 4 eras: 0.115
and prior, 0.116 - 0.121, 0.122 - 0.126, 0.127 and newer. Each of these groups or eras show
different methods of video emulation as a result of MAMEdev making various improvements.
As it currently stands, video emulation is not perfect, but it's closer than it used to be.

The important bit: prior to version 0.127, MAME generated video in essentially a "snapshot"
fashion. The Z80 would run for 1 frame, then the video emulation takes the "snapshot" of that
point time and displays the image. Then the Z80 runs for 1 frame, the next snapshot is taken,
displayed on the monitor, etc. etc. Real DK hardware, on the other hand, generates video in a
"rolling shutter" fashion: the video generator scans left-to-right/bottom-to-top, while the Z80
builds the screen in memory from the opposite direction right-to-left, top-to-bottom. Both
video generation and the Z80 are running concurrently with no "snapshots". The result is that
it becomes fairly easy to determine WHAT generated the image based on HOW the image has
been generated.

A simple analogy would be this:

-Real DK hardware generates the image in the same way you would open or close vertical
window blinds...from side to side.
-Older versions of MAME (pre-0.122) generate the image in the same way you would put
together a puzzle...piece by piece.

Since Billy has claimed that his footage is all direct feed, it's also CRUCIAL that we take a
look at an extremely well-documented process of creating a direct feed setup for DK. Chris
Gleed went through the entire painful process, documenting each step in his journey. You can
read about it in the links below. He discusses his hardware choices and provides photo
updates throughout. It is very likely that he has the only true DK direct feed setup in existence
and his scores have been accepted at DKF and TG. Footage of his direct feed gameplay is
included in the GIF collection for comparison...if we are looking at direct feed footage, THIS
IS WHAT WE SHOULD SEE.

Idea: video/audio capture from edge connector

Donkey Kong Direct Feed How-To

For further comparison, I've included footage from my own DK cabinet. This was recorded
using a Samsung 8 phone filming at 60 fps. This gives us a high-framerate comparison of true
DK hardware that is NOT direct feed. It also captures the idiosyncracies in filming a monitor
with a camera (brief ghost images or double frames). Since existing footage of Billy's 1.047M
and 1.062M are cameras-pointing-at-monitor-playback, those sources will exhibit some of the
same effects. Note that this is VERY different from the concepts discussed earlier regarding
how video is generated...these are artifacts caused by the external re-recording of the original
sources, not artifacts present in the sources themselves.

Another MAME behavior that is worth pointing out is rotation. Although we see DK in the
correct orientation when we play on a real cab, the video is actually generated on its side, with
the top of the screen being on the right-hand side. MAME also emulates this incorrectly. If
you've read through Chris Gleed's threads, you can see posted photos of correctly rotated DK
video. Billy's 1.047M and 1.05M games show the incorrect rotation. The 1.062M recording,
however, appears to be the correct orientation. Since MAME versions haven't changed the
Exhibit A - 000072
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 72/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

rotation, it's likely this discrepancy was noticed at some point and corrected for future
recordings (simple as using the -ror command).

A final note before the GIFs: all of this can be independently confirmed by anyone. I am not
in sole possession of any critical, secret piece of information here. Knowledgeable hardware
experts like Sock Master, who played a crucial role in dissecting all of this, can verify the
hardware aspects. Any person can inspect any and all versions of MAME, the provided video
sources, and their own hardware if they have it.

So, with all that being said, let's get to the GIFs. These are small segments from each source,
showing the transition from the break screen into the next. Each GIF is showing every frame
in the transition; there is no cherry picking here. Each frame in the GIF lasts approximately
750 ms to make it easier to see. As for framerates, the MAME sources, Chris Gleed's direct
feed, and my cab are recorded at ~60 fps. Each Billy source is ~30 fps. I apologize in advance
for the formatting/placement. :D

They have been grouped by screen type (barrel, pie, spring, rivet) and show a variety of
sources:

MAME 0.115 (relevant for versions 115 and below)

MAME 0.117 (relevant for versions 117 - 121)
MAME 0.122 (relevant for versions 122 - 126)
MAME 0.194 (relevant for versions 127 - 194)
Billy 1.047M
Billy 1.05M
Billy 1.062M (pie transition only...this is the only transition footage available for this
game)
Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed
Test footage from my personal cab, recorded at 60 fps with a Samsung 8 phone

BARREL TRANSITIONS

MAME 0.115 and below MAME 0.116 to 0.121 MAME 0.122 to 0.126 MAME 0.127 to
present
https://i.imgur.com/ygRJmPy.gif https://i.imgur.com/L2EyYP7.gif
https://i.imgur.com/t9OLFrO.gif https://i.imgur.com/d5IhtrX.gif

Billy 1.047M
https://i.imgur.com/ZGY568Q.gif

Billy 1.05M
https://i.imgur.com/06RAEUu.gif

Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed

https://i.imgur.com/h8uzEIn.gif

Jeremy Young Test Footage - 60 fps camera phone

https://i.imgur.com/0cYAQjt.gif

PIE TRANSITIONS

MAME 0.115 and below MAME 0.116 to 0.121 MAME 0.122 to 0.126 MAME 0.127 to
present
Exhibit A - 000073
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 73/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://i.imgur.com/nD2130A.gif https://i.imgur.com/l3NfEDi.gif
https://i.imgur.com/fbbAtun.gif https://i.imgur.com/7TskeiL.gif

Billy 1.047M
https://i.imgur.com/b4mHlsN.gif

Billy 1.05M
https://i.imgur.com/eVLzU3o.gif

Billy 1.062M
https://i.imgur.com/jgEy8NJ.gif

Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed

https://i.imgur.com/3jHIZJn.gif

Jeremy Young Test Footage - 60 fps camera phone

https://i.imgur.com/6BA9Q83.gif

02-02-2018, 09:24 AM
xelnia

SPRING TRANSITIONS

MAME 0.115 and below MAME 0.116 to 0.121 MAME 0.122 to 0.126 MAME 0.127 to
present
https://i.imgur.com/beSYXPX.gif https://i.imgur.com/WKPHmUD.gif
https://i.imgur.com/9ygYcfn.gif https://i.imgur.com/66zcnQs.gif

Billy 1.047M
https://i.imgur.com/s5W3xkj.gif

Billy 1.05M
https://i.imgur.com/oH8IXcm.gif

Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed

https://i.imgur.com/Mx23mSD.gif

Jeremy Young Test Footage - 60 fps camera phone

https://i.imgur.com/F35BTGH.gif

RIVET TRANSITIONS

MAME 0.115 and below MAME 0.116 to 0.121 MAME 0.122 to 0.126 MAME 0.127 to
present
https://i.imgur.com/lF5ZAdg.gif https://i.imgur.com/lF5ZAdg.gif
https://i.imgur.com/FFBdNWv.gif https://i.imgur.com/L8C8HJ0.gif

Billy 1.047M
https://i.imgur.com/0ACVyTR.gif
Exhibit A - 000074
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 74/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy 1.05M
https://i.imgur.com/W5HiUgi.gif

Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed

https://i.imgur.com/GtUMNEo.gif

Jeremy Young Test Footage - 60 fps camera phone

https://i.imgur.com/ZOAHnMk.gif

Beyond the evidence above, it's worth pointing out some other questions and issues:

1) While clearly MAME, there is no way to tell exactly how these games were performed. It's
possible they were recorded in one shot. Given the play style in Billy's videos, it's more likely
that vanilla MAME's INP recording feature was abused, in which a person can re-record an
INP as many times as they wish to craft their desired performance.

2) While many people have seen Billy play in public, there are no known independent,
impartial, objective witnesses to any of the The Big 3 WR games. He has never scored over
1,000,000 in a live venue. Billy claimed the 1.047M was done in front of scores of people, but
that he had no access to the inside of the machine...so how did he set up the direct feed? The
1.05 was supposedly done at an actual convention, but Billy was conveniently playing in
another room. The 1.062 was done in arcade in Florida, but the only live footage from that
day was staged (the Boomer board swap) and shows no evidence of a direct feed setup.
Todd Rogers, of Dragster infamy, was a supposed witness to the 1.05M and 1.062M games.

3) It's unclear if ANYONE ever reviewed the 1.062M recording. According to Patrick Scott
Patterson, the TG refs present at the IVGHOF event in Ottumwa in 2010 simply voted on
whether to accept the score, without reviewing any footage. While PSP's credibility in
anything DK-related is questionable, his version of those events is still worth noting.

4) For Billy, who has taken special care to point out how little he knows about DK hardware,
it would have been essentially impossible to create a direct feed setup in the years he was
submitting tapes. So, who would have done it for him and why has that person never been a
part of any verification discussions? Creating a dual-display version for the Mortage
Convention (sending quality video to another room, not just a VCR) would have required
even more technical know-how.

(The remainder of this post is DKF-specific, but provided here for thoroughness)

So...PLEASE KEEP READING

In light of the evidence presented here, I am removing Billy Mitchell's current score of
1,062,800 from the Donkey Kong Forum High Score List.

This score will be replaced with his live score of 933,900, performed at the Midwest Gaming
Classic on May 7, 2004. This score was performed in public and was witnessed by at least
one TG member as well as Dwayne Richard.

As DKF's (currently) sole high score moderator, I've taken my responsibilities very seriously.
I've always tried to apply what I felt were the community standards to every performance.
When Corey Chambers was first crafting the original version of the HSL rules, an important
section of the "Auxiliary Rules" was that a score may be accepted without following the main
rules as long as it was convincingly supported in multiple other ways. This idea was tested
Exhibit A - 000075
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 75/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

early on with MAME games by Robbie Lakeman and Christian Van Meter...performances that
were accepted with no INPs. In my view, this door swings both ways. Scores already on the
board are ALWAYS subject to review, and if the preponderance of evidence is against it than
the score should be removed, even if no single bit of evidence is a "smoking gun." In my
view, we have reached that point with Billy Mitchell.

The idea to challenge Billy's scores has been floating around for quite some time now. I
lodged a formal dispute on TG months ago. A poll on DKF showed an almost even split
(10-13) on whether Billy's scores should be removed from our HSL. Top players and former
TG officials, some quietly and others not so quietly, have been questioning his gameplay and
the circumstances behind his recordings for over a decade. I don't know Billy personally.
We've never met and the only time we've been in the same place was KO3. I'm well aware of
his importance in gaming history and culture and especially to the arcade and DKF
community. I understand this will not be a popular decision. It is not my wish to fracture a
community or affect anyone's personal life. But ultimately, I have to do what I think is right.

Short of live, time-stamped, complete footage (including full views of cab hardware) of the
games in question, I will not be reinstating any of Billy's scores in question. Should the
community as a whole wish for reinstatement, then I will step down as DKF high score
moderator. It's worth noting that there are still other forum mods (and an admin) that can
update the scoreboard if they so choose.

If this community (and others like it) are built on the idea of friendship through competition,
camaraderie through our shared pains in pushing ourselves, our friends, and these games to
their limits, then we must strive for honesty and legitimacy. A house built on lies is not worth
living in.

02-02-2018, 11:55 AM
Dave Hawksett

Thank you for your efforts in putting together this body of evidence for discussion by Twin
Galaxies members.

02-02-2018, 12:08 PM
Dave Hawksett

To clarify, time will be needed for Twin Galaxies to fully-review this evidence. We will do
this thoroughly and impartially. In the meantime we will continue to observe this discussion
by experts in our community.

02-02-2018, 01:10 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

It did exist, and I actually owned the tape for a short while and watched it myself. My
memory is a bit hazy as this was 15 years ago, but I remember getting the tape in a box of
various tapes to pull video clips from and make online video snips from as per Walter's
request. I remember watching the 885k and being very impressed, and IExhibit
specifically read the
A - 000076
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 76/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

name on the tape and was surprised to not see Billy's name on it, but instead Steve Wiebe's! I
asked Walter about it, and he seem both concerned and shocked that such a tape fell into my
hands. I got the sense that it was 'mis-filed' and purely by accident. I was asked to send it back
(I forget whether to him or another referee). What happened to the tape after that I honestly
don't know.

I'm willing to swear in court that it existed and I had the tape in my possession (for a time
anyway). In fact, I've often told this story that I was technically the first referee to verify a
Steve Wiebe DK tape, albeit accidentally. So rest assured, Steve is telling the truth about that.

02-02-2018, 01:16 PM
DadsGlasses

Great job @xelnia Very well presented evidence.

02-02-2018, 01:25 PM
zallard1

Incredible evidence package.

Many people who have no in-depth game knowledge of Donkey Kong are seeing clearly how
damning this evidence is. Well done Sock Master, @xelnia & the DK community.

02-02-2018, 01:26 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

It did exist, and I actually owned the tape for a short while and watched it myself. My
memory is a bit hazy as this was 15 years ago, but I remember getting the tape in a box of
various tapes to pull video clips from and make online video snips from as per Walter's
request. I remember watching the 885k and being very impressed, and I specifically read the
name on the tape and was surprised to not see Billy's name on it, but instead Steve Wiebe's! I
asked Walter about it, and he seem both concerned and shocked that such a tape fell into my
hands. I got the sense that it was 'mis-filed' and purely by accident. I was asked to send it back
(I forget whether to him or another referee). What happened to the tape after that I honestly
don't know.

RTM REPLY - I don't doubt your word, but I never knew of this tape as being submitted to
TG...could have been submitted to a referee other than myself.

I received/watched the initial 947K, then 985K, 999.5K and finally 1.006M from Steve, and
then much later his 1.049M featured at the tail-end of KoK. Plus I saw his live 985K at
ACAM.

Steve's VERY first contact to TG occurred before he sent in the 947K. I remember him
contacting me thru E-MAIL announcing a new WR but he was using 6-man settings, so he
Exhibit A - 000077
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 77/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

told me he would try again, and obviously he did as I eventually received the 947K (Double
DK board or not)

02-02-2018, 01:56 PM
thegamer1185

Probably ended up with all those tapes of Todd's that went missing. This mystery is to big for
me. Better get the Hardly Boys.

OK, no more jokes. Lets be honest here. It is very disheartening that TG and other sites are
being put up to the task of now proving older scores did in fact exist. That just shows you
how far these websites, technology, and gaming has come. Proving/disproving old scores is a
very huge deal. We are seeing that there was a lot of BS and collusion surrounding many of
these so called "legends" of gaming. It's never an easy position to be in disproving something
that people could view as legendary or whatever term you want to use.

This all leads to one thing though. Justice for all gamers. It's impossible to chase a score that
never existed/isn't possible. You want to achieve something so badly but when you find out it
wasn't even a thing, it can lead to anger/disappointment. It's for the better though. These
scores on TG/DKF/all gaming websites need to be cleaned up and removed. If that damages a
"legends" reputation, they never were legendary to begin with. They were
frauds/shady/cheats.

Hats off to all of you guys putting together these evidence packages. Good for DKF and TG
for actually allowing these things to be disputed and actually doing something about it. Sure,
you may take a hit in the short run, but look at the aftermath of the Todd Rogers dispute.
EVERYONE who doesn't know him personally is celebrating. Keep it up.

02-02-2018, 02:09 PM
Robert.F
i Want to know have you done this

What i Want to know..... have you done this tested with mame from a computer svga to a TV
with stander 720 x 480 for NTSC signals composite input like using this converter Svga to
composite and tested the farm rates thory you are proposing
......https://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-to-RGBS...kAAOSwa~BYT~Du

02-02-2018, 02:13 PM
Robert.F
or even

Or even tested gone from Svga to

Component Input on a VCR

recording,,, play back to a play
TV 3:4 720 x 480 NTSC signals
02-02-2018, 02:14 PM
FBX Exhibit A - 000078
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 78/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - I don't doubt your word, but I never knew of this tape as being submitted to
TG...could have been submitted to a referee other than myself.

I received/watched the initial 947K, then 985K, 999.5K and finally 1.006M from Steve, and
then much later his 1.049M featured at the tail-end of KoK. Plus I saw his live 985K at
ACAM.

Steve's VERY first contact to TG occurred before he sent in the 947K. I remember him
contacting me thru E-MAIL announcing a new WR but he was using 6-man settings, so he
told me he would try again, and obviously he did as I eventually received the 947K (Double
DK board or not)

The 885k was before all those 900k + submissions. I'm 90% certain the tape came from
Walter, because I remember it being in a box of various tapes Walter wanted me to make
online video clips from. I asked my brother if he remembered when I had that tape, and not
only did he remember it, he was able to recall the score of 885k without me telling him.

I do recall later when Steve broke 900k shortly after that, it was a situation where the 885k
tape become a moot point and probably that's why it never got entered in. Walter just never
got around to it, and then there was all the CSI treatment Steve was getting for daring to break
one of the Old Guard's records. I remember they were wanting instant disqualification over
the use of a 'double-board' or whatever it was called, and I thought Steve was being treated a
bit harshly. It was in stark contrast to questioning Todd's records, where no effort was made to
investigate the claims, and I had to be the 'bad guy' for proving 32.04 on Barnstorming was
flat-out impossible.

02-02-2018, 02:16 PM
Robert.F
the finel nale

if this going to be the finel nale in Billy coffin it better be proven with out a dough, and no
Jace your input not needed

02-02-2018, 02:29 PM
Robert.F

How a TV Works in Slow

Motion scan lines and how they
are drewin on crts and lcd s
i want you to analyse a mame game to a converter to a TV .............................. and report back
here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJU2drrtCM

02-02-2018, 02:29 PM
Exhibit A - 000079
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 79/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

datagod
2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

And PSP always has the option of posting here and giving a more thorough account (at least if
he's being honest about wanting to see Billy held accountable).

As far as I can tell, the last time PSP posted on TG was to brag about finally getting a
killscreen, after going dark for a few weeks during a heavily promoted (facebook, local TV
station) quest to do so. At the time, he was also posting L=22 as proof, which turned out to be
a pixel-for-pixel match of the same image on Hank Chien's DK Killscreen submission table
from a week earlier.

I think the Donkey Kong community is doing an excellent job of looking after the DK cores.
You will note that PSP's beloved killscreen has never been accepted or displayed on the
Donkey Kong High Score List. In other words, PSP cannot be trusted when it comes to
anything related to Donkey Kong or high scores in general. And his professional jealousy of
Billy Mitchell only magnifies that.

Attachment 49504

Attachment 49501

02-02-2018, 02:34 PM
Ninglendo

Is there any video evidence that exists of Billy's DK Jr. score or is Sroka's video the only one?
Thanks.

02-02-2018, 02:38 PM
Robert.F

Darwin theory seam right at the time , but know one understood at the time that These
changes can be caused by environmental factors such as ultravioletradiation from the
sun, or can occur if an error is made as DNA copies itself during cell division. Acquired
mutations in somatic cells (cells other than sperm and egg cells) cannot be passed to the
next generation

02-02-2018, 02:50 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

Is there any video evidence that exists of Billy's DK Jr. score or is Sroka's video the only one?
Thanks.

Todd had them in his Hotel room the night before. Maybe Nelson got them that weekend.
Exhibit A - 000080
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 80/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-02-2018, 02:52 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Todd had them in his Hotel room the night before. Maybe Nelson got them that weekend.

The VHS tapes that is.

02-02-2018, 02:59 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

The VHS tapes that is.

Part of the infamous Ron Corcoran collection I bet. @Robert F, are you trying to confirm the
evidence in the MAME images? Or are you saying there is another possible way Billy
Mitchell may have recorded the game? Sorry I'm not understanding what your asking.

To that point, is the evidence saying Billy played using a MAME emulator and simply played
a recording back through a DK cabinet? I'm just wanting to make sure I'm reading all of these
correctly.

02-02-2018, 03:24 PM
Robert.F
put up or shut up

Put up or shut up i agree John ,, Tommrow i will e presenting my Thearys on svgs to TV

frame rate`s and how Billy is being play by TG of all places :)

02-02-2018, 04:24 PM
CaptainJivePants

Easy accept. Good work Jry and Sock.

02-02-2018, 04:30 PM
Robert.F
fancy pants

Easy accept. Good work Jry and Sock.thats all you got to say ?

02-02-2018, 04:41 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Easy accept. Good work Jry and Sock.thats all you got to say ?

I'm confused. Robert, are you upset that this score is being disputed? I can understand if you
do happen to have evidence it existed, but from what your saying it's possible he played this
using MAME and displayed it to something. Or are you saying that you can actually use a DK
Exhibit A - 000081
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 81/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

board and display it to a regular monitor and that is why the picture frames appear the way
they do? Right now your asking questions and being very vague as to what your intentions
are? I'm not saying you have an "agenda"(I hate this word now because of that Dragster
dispute), I'm asking if you disagree with the dispute and have evidence to verify your stance
is all. I'm all for this score staying if that is the case. We have just seen this scenario in the
Dragster dispute where people are backing Todd because they are and it becomes an agenda
show with no evidence.

Again, I'm just asking and don't mean to imply anything towards you one way or the other.
Thanks.

02-02-2018, 04:56 PM
Robert.F
up set never

no im not upset just surprised this kinda evadeind did come sooner :) the card are stacking up
against Billy

02-02-2018, 04:58 PM
Robert.F

DIDNT come sooner... sorry i cant edit what i say for the

Grammar ***** :)
02-02-2018, 05:15 PM
Ripper

If there are some old scores that were filmed by Billy when he was breaking 1 million on DK
then it would sure help his cause. I don't mean a small portion of a video but the whole game.
Getting 1,014,000 with 100% video proof would almost be close enough to this score you are
debating to say he may have indeed achieved the score. Recording your game sure helps out a
lot.

02-02-2018, 05:31 PM
andrewg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

No! He is good at games, he can achieve the score. Literally if all it took to defend his legacy
was a 1 million point game he could probably do it this month... especially given the
evolution of dk high scores. 1m is easy now.

There's this fallacy that people think since people are capable or close to a world record, it
means we should believe their claims.

Exhibit A - 000082
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 82/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Close, but no cigar. I wouldn't be surprised if Billy did get 1m, but the point is moot if it's
proven he fabricated scores

02-02-2018, 05:34 PM
andrewg

BTW, I just got a 4:55 in Super Mario Bros. Here's my close PB TO PROVE IT

02-02-2018, 05:41 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewg

BTW, I just got a 4:55 in Super Mario Bros. Here's my close PB TO PROVE IT

Congrats man! Submit that fabricated photo and you got my vote! Haha, I see what you did
there you silly goose. I agree, saying it's close enough isn't good enough. If he did do it, I
would be happy to take his close enough score though. Full video evidence pending. I hope
Billy comes out and says something about this. Not in a negative way but the way I thought
Todd should have done it. "OK ****ers! You want some Donkey Kong. It's on like ****ing
Donkey Kong". Have fun with it and play the game. That would be the best way to handle it.
Accept the challenge. Only problem is that replicating a PB is well, very hard since it's your
PB, AKA the best you've ever done.

Which brings up that there may need to be some rule stating that 90-95% of your highest
score on a second performance might be enough to prove you actually did it. Really, what if
I,you, anybody had a score disputed and you put up a 98% of your record? If it was me, the
only argument I could have was the one I just gave. It's the highest I've ever gotten, did you
really think I could do it again? 98% is still ****ing awesome. I might need to start a new
wall post about this.

Seriously, if Billy came in and got 1,045,000 pts, could we really say it's not possible he didn't
actually get the score we are disputing. Yeah, this needs a wall post.

02-02-2018, 06:01 PM
serphintizer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCgy0dphOGc

02-02-2018, 06:08 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

i don’t accept this at all. He could get 1.3 million with one hand tied behind his back blind
folded playing only by sense of smell in another game and it wouldn’t justify any wrong
doing in this game
Exhibit A - 000083
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 83/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-02-2018, 06:11 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Seriously, if Billy came in and got 1,045,000 pts, could we really say it's not possible he didn't
actually get the score we are disputing. Yeah, this needs a wall post.

But if the hard evidence does in fact show that a MAME Score was knowingly aubmitted as
an arcade score, then the actual score doesn’t matter. It would be cheating with pure intent to
deceive.

02-02-2018, 06:13 PM
andrewg

Simply put, if you can't prove the initial claim it doesn't matter what you do after the fact.
Putting up a close score means you can prove a close score. Todd got 5.61, that's close. I
guess that means his 5.51 is real after all.

02-02-2018, 06:16 PM
andrewg

And again, even if he got 1.2m now it still means nothing. Time changes things. Scores
evolve with time, skill evolves with time. You can't use skill as a defense. You can be the best
in the world at a game and not have the world record. There is a difference between setting a
world record and having the ability to. Many have the ability to break the dk record, but not
many have.

02-02-2018, 06:29 PM
BenMullen
repeatbility

i don't really think there is a lot to add to the blockbuster post from this morning that was
written by some true experts in the game. That post DID reference that all the findings were
fairly easy to reproduce so I guess it should be asked that official TG people do exactly that to
confirm what they have uncovered.
Exhibit A - 000084
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 84/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Looking beyond this score there might be others to look at as well but I think the subtext here
is that a LOT of collusion at the highest levels of TG had to exist to make this possible.

Sad.

02-02-2018, 06:48 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMullen

Looking beyond this score there might be others to look at as well but I think the subtext here
is that a LOT of collusion at the highest levels of TG had to exist to make this possible.

Sad.

I sincerely hope as more of these scores come to light that we get an official acknowledgment
others were in on it and they’re dealt with as well

02-02-2018, 06:49 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

RTM REPLY - Thanks for the reply...this is great info as it fills in a gap in my own
recollection that until now I did not even know existed !!

As for the DDK disqualification. The exact sequence of events would take some
reconstruction, but it wasn't until awhile after the 947K was recognized that TG was told of
the DDK boardset. Truth be told, Daren Harris had discovered a blurb about this on some
other gaming forum, something like "RGVAC" or the like, one I am not familiar with.
Anyway, in response to Steve's DDK Jr performance I believe, and again I am a little shaky
Exhibit A - 000085
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 85/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

on the sequence here as it has been awhile, a person identifying himself as the designer of the
boardset posted that he disputed Steve's score as he used a non-traditional boardset. This
knowledge was not passed along to TG until about a year later when Steve submitted his DK
score...I believe he submitted DK JR first and then later DK. Again, it has been quite awhile.
Usually I am quite sharp on sequences but this one in its entirety had a LOT of caveats along
the way.

I can understand how an 885K performance could be lost from observation/recognition...the

same can be said of Steve's 999.5K which was never formally announced as by the time it
was watched a 1.006M performance was announced that it was being sent...and both of these
trumped his 985K on tape that was never accepted because of clear indication that DDK was
used...again if I remember correctly. And that was a 985K other than the live that he did at
ACAM in May/June of 2005.

As for Steve's "treatment". When the 985K came in that one was shipped by me to Chris Ayra
for an expert opinion...which he did provide and which lead to Steve having to re-game using
a traditional boardset...which Steve did, in my opinion. But the s__t hit the fan when those
Shildt-originating boardsets were found in his home which raised the spectre of comments
made years back by Roy that he would try to blow one past TG. It just smelled
wrong...collectively...so formal acceptance was postponed.

In retrospect, had those Shildt-mailed boardsets NOT been found/seen by Brian Kuh, things
would have been a lot different.

However, what truly irked me both personally and professionally was when...before Kuh saw
the boardsets...TG was preparing to acknowledge Wiebe as the 1st ever 1M score on DK.
Billy was fuming and claiming that he already had done it first though never sent in the tape
to TG and also that he informed Steve that he had done when he called Wiebe to congratulate
him on the 1M...Billy told Steve he had done so a year earlier.

Rules were rules and Steve's tape was in-hand, so Billy and his massive ego lead to him
showcasing his 1.014M at a NYC Lincoln Center-based event...which I attended along with
Walter and a few others including NYC gamer Zack Hample...where Billy showed his taped
performance and proclaimed before the crowd that "they said 1M could never be done..."
followed be "here's the tape". What an ego :(

I had a nice 30+ page article written comparing what would have been the announcement of
simultaneous 1M scores that never was published on the TG forum. If anyone is interested in
reading it as well as the accompanying EXCEL files which detail the progress of each game,
drop me a PM with your E-MAIL address and I'll be happy to send. I already shared these
with Robbie Lakeman, BTW, and he enjoyed reading it.

The rest could take up 50,000 characters in this post, but so much has been said before I'll
leave this at that.

02-02-2018, 06:52 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Which brings up that there may need to be some rule stating that 90-95% of your highest
score on a second performance might be enough to prove you actually did it. Really, what if
I,you, anybody had a score disputed and you put up a 98% of your record? If it was me, the
Exhibit A - 000086
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 86/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

only argument I could have was the one I just gave. It's the highest I've ever gotten, did you
really think I could do it again? 98% is still ****ing awesome. I might need to start a new
wall post about this.

RTM REPLY - might be that I am not reading what you said the right way, but TG
previously had an "85% Rule" in the early days which was junked in the 2001-2005 range at
some point and replaced with the "100% Rule". I believe that I made mention of this in a
recent forum reply in the dispute forum within the previous 60 days or so.

02-02-2018, 09:45 PM
Almighty Dreadlock

MAMEr of the Century

02-02-2018, 09:50 PM
DadsGlasses

1,247,700

Amazing to see true competitors pushing the limits of the game. Their legacy and hard work
deserve credit. They also deserve to not be surrounded by fake scores.

02-03-2018, 05:05 AM
FBX

@ RTM,

You definitely know more about the timeline than I could remember! One name you brought
up was Daren Harris, and I remember him having the loudest voice that Steve 'didn't
accomplish anything' because it was on a double board. We then had a big debate about what
advantage that gave Steve (if any at all), and that didn't matter to Daren. He was in that
mindset of 'original hardware or it didn't happen', which I can understand to some degree, but
I felt he was going overboard with it in order to avoid awarding Steve any credit whatsoever.

That wasn't my first run-in with Daren either. He also talked trash on modern gamers and the
idea of video taping gameplay. To him, referee in person or go home. I remember getting into
'heated' debates with him and his lack of respect for anything modern game related.

02-03-2018, 05:35 AM
Ripper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying Billy didn't fabricate his score or anything. It was
around the time of KOK and may have been meant to help promote the documentary but I
agree, it's NEVER right to fabricate any kind of gaming score at all. Trust me, I was firm as a
referee and never verified any of Todd or Billy's scores. What I was really getting at is Billy
never really released full game play footage of a big score game. It was always talked about
Exhibit A - 000087
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 87/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

like a video tape is out there or someone saw it or it was verified at a live event, etc...
Everybody else around 2007 had to have real proof but scores were accepted at live events if
a TG referee were around to verify it? It was never me as I never verified any live event
score. Me personally... I wanted 100% proof as well with a high quality video to back it up
and NO breaks in the video whatsoever. I totally get where you guys are coming from here.

02-03-2018, 05:54 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying Billy didn't fabricate his score or anything. It was
around the time of KOK and may have been meant to help promote the documentary but I
agree, it's NEVER right to fabricate any kind of gaming score at all. Trust me, I was firm as a
referee and never verified any of Todd or Billy's scores. What I was really getting at is Billy
never really released full game play footage of a big score game. It was always talked about
like a video tape is out there or someone saw it or it was verified at a live event, etc...
Everybody else around 2007 had to have real proof but scores were accepted at live events if
a TG referee were around to verify it? It was never me as I never verified any live event
score. Me personally... I wanted 100% proof as well with a high quality video to back it up
and NO breaks in the video whatsoever. I totally get where you guys are coming from here.

ah, sorry for inferring incorrectly. Often times the implication when talking about percentages
is that regaming a certain percent somehow makes it ok. If however the implication is that he
cant even get that percentage, well then, thats different. Thank you for the clarification.

02-03-2018, 03:47 PM
Robert.F
what hell

This Copy / Past stuff driving me crazy , i dont care where you from you opinions from just
speek out ,, this like a freekin game of point counter point ,,

So when dose Billy get the Bad New`s ?

02-03-2018, 04:17 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

This Copy / Past stuff driving me crazy , i dont care where you from you opinions from just
speek out ,, this like a freekin game of point counter point ,,

So when dose Billy get the Bad New`s ?

I've heard via long facebook post that he is aware. This is from one his many friends who are
not happy about this dispute. Either way, I have been told he is aware.

02-03-2018, 04:55 PM
RTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIe...ature=youtu.be
Exhibit A - 000088
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 88/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-03-2018, 05:05 PM
Riatoju

How do we even know the video being dissected is Billys? I'm just curious as I may have
missed that part of the discussion.

02-03-2018, 05:57 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

How do we even know the video being dissected is Billys? I'm just curious as I may have
missed that part of the discussion.

Compare the 1.047M footage with any footage from King of Kong. Here's some bonus
footage.

Compare the 1.05M footage with footage post by Settle It On The Screen (formerly TG
Podcast?), here.

And Billy is standing in front of playback of his 1.062M. Unless you're saying that's NOT his
gameplay?

02-03-2018, 06:28 PM
Riatoju

Heh interesting. That's a trip.

02-03-2018, 06:46 PM
RTM

The 1.047M footage was originally sent to be shown at the ACAM 2005 event. A big
production was made as to how this tape arrived...I think it was part of a "plan" to contribute
to the hype.

Originally A tape was shipped express mail to Greg Erway who brought it to the event and
when we started to watch in my cabin it was clear that the wrong tape was sent. So, according
to what I recollect, Bill then sent via overnight express mail a tape to arrive at an airport for
Brian Kuh to pick up. Makes you wonder why a camera person was there to capture that on
tape...all staged in my opinion to add to the hype.

That tape we started to watch and it was clear it was a washed copy, not the original,
especially when we reached the 1M roll-over point which was quite controversial.

As history records, Walter...at the 2005 event...asks Billy if he wants to submit the score
EVEN THOUGH we had earlier determined, including Walter, that the tape was not
acceptable due to the quality. On camera they are captured in cell conversation with Billy
indicating yes, and on camera (without my knowledge has by that point I was driving back to
NY), Walter entered the score into the TG database.

Upon my return I saw the score on the TG front page since the last 50 scores entered was a
front page feature back then. I called up Brien King and we agreed to take the score down
which I did, replacing it with Bill's former score whatever it was at the time.
Exhibit A - 000089
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 89/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Then, 8 or 9 months later, the original VHS tape was submitted and watched.

At no point did any of us watching the tape realize it was a MAME submission masquerading
as an arcade performance. Considering the steps taken by Bill to get this tape to the ACAM
event, and the hooplah generated by having it playing while Steve was there playing live, this
is in retrospect a slap in the face at all gamers in attendance, especially to Steve, and to all of
Bill's colleagues who he specifically entrusted to be part of this process of watching his tape
and promoting his "bounty" at the event of offering $10,000 to anyone who can beat his score.

Further, he claims in KoK that he did NOT know Wiebe was in attendance which is a crock
and then some.

Unknown to most gamers is the fact that Brian Kuh at one point was trying to put a television
set ON TOP OF the very same DK machine that Wiebe would be playing at, so as to play the
1M performance by Bill while Wiebe was trying to play live. That attempt, even though it
was rightfully blocked by ACAM management, shows an absolutely egregious amount of
poor sportsmanship on behalf of Bill.

Also known to most gamers is the fact that the way this transpired, it cost TG the resignation
of senior referee Mike Stulir who resigned in absolute disgust that Walter would allow for this
to happen. And I never blamed Mike one bit for doing so.

Poor sportsmanship aside, to find out in the here and now that the very performance involved
could be potentially faked is an affront to me as both a gamer and as a former staffer, and if it
is determined beyond all doubt that this was a MAME performance as well as the current
1.06M that is being reviewed, I would call for not just an outright removal of all of Bill's
scores but ALSO would contact whoever issued Bill that "Player of the Century"
certificate and have that yanked as well...in the same fashion and spirit that some
University recently rescinded the "honorary degree" bestowed upon Bill Cosby.

It has been said by Bill himself repeatedly that he always "has a plan"...sadly we might find
out soon enough that these "plans" were calculatingly devious in nature for many, many years.

And, if it is determined that the performance was faked, it should make you wonder, as he
was the financial lifeline for TG for as many years...was TG upper management aware of this
going on and if so was a blind eye turned ? If so that would stink to the high heavens.

02-03-2018, 06:56 PM
lexmark

Good post, Robert!

john

02-03-2018, 07:17 PM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

And Billy is standing in front of playback of his 1.062M. Unless you're saying that's NOT his
gameplay?
Exhibit A - 000090
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 90/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Hahahaha, it's really funny to me how something so blatantly obvious has to be said. Of
course this is Billy's footage. Who could possibly be dense enough to assume otherwise in
this instance?

02-03-2018, 07:23 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

Hahahaha, it's really funny to me how something so blatantly obvious has to be said. Of
course this is Billy's footage. Who could possibly be dense enough to assume otherwise in
this instance?

do you want the list, or is that rhetorical?

02-03-2018, 07:23 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

Hahahaha, it's really funny to me how something so blatantly obvious has to be said. Of
course this is Billy's footage. Who could possibly be dense enough to assume otherwise in
this instance?

Opossum! My mom always said when something is so blatantly obvious, but someone is to
dense enough to assume otherwise, you hunt Opossum. Wasn't Joe Cartoon back in the day
awesome?!

02-03-2018, 07:30 PM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

do you want the list, or is that rhetorical?

I am saddened that this is a serious question, but at this point I believe it.

List away, if you want.

02-03-2018, 07:39 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

I am saddened that this is a serious question, but at this point I believe it.

List away, if you want.

I'm not gonna do that, I will however fill in the reasons for statements like the above that may
seem a little confusing. A lot of us are either facebook friends, or friends of friends with
everyone else on site. Theres a lot of talk about this on facebook by people who wont post
Exhibit A - 000091
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 91/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

here, and so some cryptic responses that seem odd to you only seeing the context here are
actually included because of the ridiculous counter arguments made off site.

02-03-2018, 07:39 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

I am saddened that this is a serious question, but at this point I believe it.

List away, if you want.

Just go on facebook and look at Hectors wall posts. That one article pretty much gives you all
the answers. I keep telling them to come here to back Billy's play but they don't. Now I've
resorted to telling them it's a damn shame I didn't record my 5.51 second **** for the record
books. Doesn't mean it didn't happen if you guys believe I did it. Yeah, after so long I finally
start giving people ****. I did in that same post tell them if they really do give a **** about
this score to come here and look at the evidence and defend Billy. Still waiting. Oh yeah,
ALL OF US at TG are a bunch everything derogatory under the suns for what happened to
Todd and what is happening to Billy. It's pretty awesome stuff.

02-03-2018, 07:49 PM
Marcade

If your interested, there is a potential Donkey Kong score removal, if you want to watch.

02-03-2018, 07:54 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

Hahahaha, it's really funny to me how something so blatantly obvious has to be said. Of
course this is Billy's footage. Who could possibly be dense enough to assume otherwise in
this instance?

There are people outside this dispute who have no clue what is going on. I too don't know all
the details, so it is pretty rude to call people dense when many of us aren't as invested in this
as you and others are. It also doesn't help that everyone in these disputes are all one sided. I
haven't taken any sides on this, even so we are going after a score that isn't even second place,
however it's likely Billy will get the Todd treatment but he'll be fine, he's a villain and is
known for cheating as a villain, this will only make him stronger. In any case hopefully this
dispute doesn't drag on like Dragster and gets resolved as quickly as possible. If TG chooses
to milk this too, this place is seriously messed up.

02-03-2018, 07:56 PM
datagod
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 49564

Nope. Not dragging on at all.

Exhibit A - 000092
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 92/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-03-2018, 07:57 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

If your interested, there is a potential Donkey Kong score removal, if you want to watch.

You mean a career kill screen?

02-03-2018, 07:59 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Attachment 49564

Nope. Not dragging on at all.

There was no meat on this bone until now. This was pretty much a dead dispute. Now it spits
hot fire.

02-03-2018, 07:59 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I agree it shouldnt be milked, however, thats not to say fair time shouldnt be put in. TG
should took the time to verify it really is billy's video as well as review the explanation. I dont
think its so unreasonable this is till open.

As for "one side", should people purposely take a side they dont believe just to balance things
out? Should we always walk around in life only be half sure half unsure of everytihng? When
asked how you feel always say "I dont know i'm right in the middle"? The "other side" has
every opportunity to speak up. If only one side exists, then what does that tell you? Xelnia put
forth a great evidence package and now this is again reducing to just an emotional thread.

02-03-2018, 08:05 PM
timmell

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000093
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 93/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by xelnia

Compare the 1.047M footage with any footage from King of Kong. Here's some bonus
footage.

Compare the 1.05M footage with footage post by Settle It On The Screen (formerly TG
Podcast?), here.

And Billy is standing in front of playback of his 1.062M. Unless you're saying that's NOT his
gameplay?

Here is the 1.062 video of me showing (on my desktop) the original video file slowing it
down going frame by frame.
You will see the date I off loaded my camera on Aug. 10th, 2010 three days after the event.

https://youtu.be/pDHSoe74TDc

02-03-2018, 08:06 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

The evidence package Xelnia put together is incredible work, it's likely going to put this
dispute to rest unless someone can come up with something to discredit it. Unless Billy
submits different tapes I don't think it can be discredited unless Dwayne Richards went
through the work of fabricating tapes using multiple save states to mimic known
performances of Billy's but I doubt he would go through the trouble. From my understanding
the tapes came from Dwayne right?

02-03-2018, 08:10 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

https://youtu.be/pDHSoe74TDc

Wait so is this footage from the event showing possible proof this was from an emulator?

02-03-2018, 08:13 PM
timmell Exhibit A - 000094
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 94/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Roy tried to use a dispute system back then.

"When you have enough money you can create whatever you want." - Roy Shildt

https://youtu.be/VkeAnCmusf0

02-03-2018, 08:15 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Wait so is this footage from the event showing possible proof this was from an emulator?

Yes watch it, read the in this thread.

02-03-2018, 08:20 PM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I'm not gonna do that, I will however fill in the reasons for statements like the above that may
seem a little confusing. A lot of us are either facebook friends, or friends of friends with
everyone else on site. Theres a lot of talk about this on facebook by people who wont post
here, and so some cryptic responses that seem odd to you only seeing the context here are
actually included because of the ridiculous counter arguments made off site.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Ah, understandable. I do not have a facebook account, nor do I ever plan on having one, so all
of that content/context is unreachable for me unfortunately.

Seems a bit odd that there's apparently a lot of talk on facebook backing Billy, but none of it
is here, in the place where any statements they make could have actual weight on the outcome
of the dispute. If they are that invested in Billy's standing in the community and have actual
sound evidence or reasoning as to why the evidence package doesn't hold verifiable water, it
only hurts their cause for nothing from them to be posted here for public discourse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

There are people outside this dispute who have no clue what is going on. I too don't know all
the details, so it is pretty rude to call people dense when many of us aren't as invested in this
Exhibit A - 000095
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 95/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

as you and others are.

This has nothing to do with any of the details in xelnia's post, or understanding them in any
capacity. I do not blame anyone for not understanding every part of the analysis posted earlier,
as there are a lot of parts to it that have to be considered carefully. What I'm talking about is
the fact that there is an eleven and a half minute video where Billy's new DK & DKJR world
records are being announced. The two runs on display are VHS direct feed recordings of both
games. In what reasonable scenario could those two televisions displaying those two games
not be Billy's gameplay from those records?

02-03-2018, 08:21 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Roy tried to use a dispute system back then.

"When you have enough money you can create whatever you want." - Roy Shildt

https://youtu.be/VkeAnCmusf0

honestly, this is why we have to care. Yeah, I dont play donkey kong, i really dont like the
game. But I see guys like Roy who knew they were getting bamboozled, they spoke up, and
nothing was done. Now THAT is one sided. These guys had a one side control for years, and
now the other side is finally speaking up. Dont get me wrong, at some point I think the people
who were cheated should've moved on with their lives, but at the same time it shouldnt have
come to that.

02-03-2018, 08:23 PM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

https://youtu.be/pDHSoe74TDc

I was actually just about to post that you can use the frame advance feature on the youtube
video to do the same thing (press , and . to go back/forward 1 frame), but I'm glad you
showed it on the original raw video as well.

02-03-2018, 08:23 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

In what reasonable scenario could those two televisions displaying those two games not be
Billy's gameplay from those records?

Exhibit A - 000096
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 96/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

There are many witness that those were the tapes that Billy presented at IVGHOF. Paul
Zimmerman allowed Billy to use his VHS players (used for his own attempts that weekend)
to play back the tapes. He could have assisted with playback.

02-03-2018, 09:01 PM
Riatoju

Asking for a friend but is there any evidence of emulation while Billy is performing live? I
mean so far we have tapes that strongly suggest being his and we have footage of playback of
those tapes showing proof, but do we have the actual live performance? If not all Billy has to
do is deny that was his game play and that ends this dispute. We have no proof that any of that
was his actual live performances. He could deny Srokas video was his or admit it wasn't his
therefore lying but that wouldn't have any effect on this dispute because showing playback is
out of the bounds of the rules that apply to live performances. I have no reason to believe the
tapes are fabricated but we don't know that for sure. Dwayne Richard's isn't a credible source
from what I've heard, he has some sort of grudge if I recall.

02-03-2018, 09:06 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

But I see guys like Roy who knew they were getting bamboozled, they spoke up, and nothing
was done. Now THAT is one sided.

RTM REPLY - I wouldn't put too much faith in believing that Roy was "bamboozled". There
is sufficient anecdotal evidence accumulated over the years to suggest that he did not achieve
his claim of 1.695M on TGTS, but Walter in his non-stop kumbaya efforts to avoid bad
kharma was why he chose to ignore all of that in the end.

And he most definitely did not achieve a 59M score on marathon settings based on Roy's very
own testimony during the AllGamesRadio interview of Feb-Mar/07 when he clearly indicated
that he played under "Atari Rules", a fact that he never mentioned not even once since the
1980's or in the hundreds of calls and discussions with TG officials since then, which was not
allowed under TG policy thus immediately DQ'ing that score.

The fact that Walter Day chose to retain these two scores in the TG database in light of al the
evidence gathered and presented/proven to him over the years was one of the three reasons
why I resigned from TG in December of 2006.

02-03-2018, 09:10 PM
timmell

Tell your friend, to get a TG account then. And post here. If Billy denies that those are his
tapes ,then there are many witness that were there, that he and Steve presented those videos as
his two latest new world records on DK and DK jr.

02-03-2018, 09:10 PM
Snowflake

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000097
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 97/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I wanna make sure I understand your concern. If i understand you correctly, that would mean
things would have to happen like this:

Dwayne would fake tapes in such a way that billy, who was there, was also tricked and
believed they were his.
Dwayne would do this on the hopes someone would take a video that could resurfaces years
to be analyzed by others when jace hall eventually institutes a dispute system that was
unthinkable back then.
Dwayne makes plenty of anti-billy videos, but plays the long game on this one, never
bringing it up, just sitting back hoping someone somewhere will eventually find the trap he
lied.

I mean, some people do go to extreme lengths with this stuff, but there are limits.

02-03-2018, 09:14 PM
Riatoju

Nevermind. Forget what I said. Someone settled that question for both of us. There is new
evidence that digs the hole deeper. I don't have permission at this time to post it but things
aren't looking good for Billy.

02-03-2018, 09:15 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Exhibit A - 000098
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 98/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

i'm confused, are we talking about missile command or donkey kong? Cause it looks to me
like roy was upset a suspicious donkey kong score tried to be passed off as legit. While its
clear roy wasnt actually tricked, this video does seem to show billy's attempt to bamboozle
him despite it failing. You cant dismiss roy's complaints back then and at the same time
validate this dispute now. Roy spoke up and got ignored. Poor guy. I'm glad your other
comments back up his suspicions. Now lets have some sympathy for the people who were
victims of these shenanigans

02-03-2018, 09:26 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Should anecdotal evidence really be considered in such a serious dispute as this? Also, it is
not helpful to claim to know Walter's (or anyone's) inner knowledge of why they made a
decision. Unless you have a signed affidavit from the person, it is just hearsay.

02-03-2018, 09:40 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY

02-03-2018, 10:01 PM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

also tell your friend, that at the 6:10 mark of that announcement video, billy refers to his
video tapes, “ the two of these are gonna play here”
as he rests his hands on the TVs playing the tapes.
Exhibit A - 000099
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 99/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY

To add to this, at 2:40 or so into the video, Billy says "I managed to set a new world record
that I guess you're going to see finalized right here"

02-03-2018, 10:07 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

RTM REPLY - in the case of the 1985 "Ironman Competition", and with respect to the
behind-the-scenes events leading up to the "perfect pacman" at ACAM, only anecdotal
evidence exists. The very nature of what happened in both cases precluded hard evidence
from being possible aside from two known exceptions regarding debunking Roy's claim
(airfare tickets debunking his claim that both Chris Ayra and Darren Harris both saw him play
at the event, and the TG "Bible" of Rules plus the copy of the rulebook used for the 1984
"Guinness" Masters Event which further proved TG (or anyone for that matter) was not taking
into consideration a certain dip switch).

02-03-2018, 10:11 PM
thegamer1185

OK, so the evidence that has surfaced regarding the MAME images, can some help explain to
me how they work again using this new video? The monitors in the video are set on their
sides to display the images properly I'm assuming. Help a simple guy like myself, and others,
in determining why the set up is the way it is. I understand the imaging is rendered per frame,
but can you use this video and package those MAME images so they are in the same post for
easier viewing. Please and thanks.

02-03-2018, 10:14 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Are you talking about this DK score Robert, or another score entirely? If this is in regards to
the Roy guy and one of his scores, open a dispute on it I guess. Otherwise, where is this
heading? I'm sure a lot of people have no idea what you keep referring to.
Exhibit A - 000100
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 100/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-03-2018, 11:53 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

From what I been told a direct feed when converted displays the image sideways, there is no
way around it, unless this was recorded using MAME and flipped back. Hope that helps.

02-04-2018, 12:24 AM
expandedidea
2 Attachment(s)
Some clarification...

For those having issues with the GIFs, this might be a bit easier to see. I have attached the
frame by frame diagram of the board transitions from DKF. Just to clarify, the easiest way to
see the differences from mame/billy videos and arcade is that the ladders are drawn all at once
on early versions of mame and the billy videos, no matter where you skip to in the game. On
arcade, the ladders appear to us to be drawn progressively from right to left, to simplify. You
can see this on the Chris Gleed's direct feed video screenshots.

While not on here, some have argued that the way a VHS tape displays an image could cause
the intermediate frames where the ladders are drawn to be obscured... this is simply not the
case. I also attached a screenshot from Tim Sczerby's arcade world record killscreen from
2000 (https://youtu.be/1P6edH95LCc), which is a VHS tape captured using a camcorder.
Even here, it is obvious that the ladders are drawn on the right first. This NEVER happens on
Billy's gameplay. I have jumped all around these tapes looking for an anomaly and it isn't
there. This is as cut and dry as it seems.Attachment 49575Attachment 49574

02-04-2018, 01:41 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by expandedidea

If you are so inclined, I think it could be helpful to the investigation if you also included in
your overall comparison picture some frame shots from the gameplay in this video where
Billy is present:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=7y15Y6xrpXY
Exhibit A - 000101
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 101/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-04-2018, 05:38 AM
Ripper

Yes, I totally admit that I've wondered about this score for years myself and I've been on the
fence about it but people have told me point blank, they were there and witnessed it! No
matter how this turns out I'm still voting NO!

I'm beginning to see things as a witch hunt on the older generation gamer's. I mean, who's
next and when will it stop? I also understand that some guys back in the day did indeed lie
through their teeth for the sake of a little fame. However, to me there has to be without a
doubt 100% proof before throwing someone under the bus. Especially someone like Billy
who helps promote classic gaming by traveling around with Walter multiple times a year. It's
not a crazy high score, there are witnesses saying he achieved this score and Billy does indeed
have skills on Donkey Kong.

02-04-2018, 05:57 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=7y15Y6xrpXY

Sounds to me you don't believe the tapes with Billy's full performance could actually be his.
The analysis of them should be more than enough proof right? Unless you feel these tapes
don't matter enough to make a call.

02-04-2018, 05:59 AM
DadsGlasses

Have you noticed that the people that “swear Billy actually achieved these scores” didn’t
actually see Billy actually achieve these scores? What they are swearing to is that they
“believe” Billy got these scores. Keep in mind that many of these same people swore that they
just knew that Todd got a 5.51. Some even swore that they had proof that Todd got a 5.54.

The details of the story change a little, but the theme remains the same. People do not like to
discover that something they believed in is actually false. There is reason for this rooted in
our evolutionary psychology. It goes hand in hand with the fundamentals of “belief”.

The evidence appears to be stacking up. The comparison of screen building. The spread sheet
comparison of run rates and pace. The blue barrel quantities. The anecdotal evidence. The
first hand accounts of other 1.1m+ players. Etc.

Conversely, and understandably, the emotional defense of a “belief” begins to stack

Exhibit A - up.
000102
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 102/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

People don’t like to have their beliefs challenged. It’s a normal human emotional response.

At the end end of the day, this is a score tracking website. If the evidence shows that the score
submission is not what it was said to be, then the score should be removed and appropriate
action should be taken regarding cheating. That should not be an emotional decision based on
friendships, legacies, marketing, community building, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

02-04-2018, 06:06 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY

Now I don't know what to believe. Notice in this video the monitors are sideways, a direct
feed from authentic boards would cause this to happen, not to mention these particular
Nintendo boards only work with Nintendo monitors which means the technician would have
had to make a converter for this so it could be recorded to a VHS, where with MAME they
could directly feed it to a VCR from a video capture device used on a PC. Not to mention,
MAME properly orients the screen which would make putting the monitors sideways
unnecessary.

02-04-2018, 06:08 AM
Barthax

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000103
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 103/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Not to mention, MAME properly orients the screen which would make putting the monitors
sideways unnecessary.

Very minor technical note: MAME has had the ability to rotate the screen before display since
very early versions.

02-04-2018, 06:09 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

From what I been told a direct feed when converted displays the image sideways, there is no
way around it, unless this was recorded using MAME and flipped back. Hope that helps.

Yeah that`s true hector simple direct feed will allays be vertically frames on the screen,, and
All of the videos iv seen of billy's game play the tv`s are on there sides except for this video i
cant tell if the TV on it side https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk... at any rate if you where playing
mame you can choose how to display the orientation and if recording an inp... ones the inp
recorded you can only play back at the orientation it was recorded in ,,, anyone planing to
fake a live direct feed would be well aware of this im sure :)

02-04-2018, 06:15 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

That video is of a tv on its side for sure.

02-04-2018, 06:22 AM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Yes, but you can tell MAME to orient the output in any direction, 90, 180, 270,0.

Exhibit A - 000104
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 104/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

As terms of the converters, someone else will have to chime in. But the claim in this dispute
seems to be at this point that the drawing of boards on the output on Billy's video are more
like the drawing of graphics is similar to the earlier versions of MAME. And not similar to
other footage of filmed arcade machines with PCBs in tact. I don't think the interlaced signal
60i of a VHS recorder would change the image so much it would like MAME.

02-04-2018, 06:26 AM
WCopeland
1 Attachment(s)

I would like to present a chart I've held onto for about a year now:

Attachment 49589

This is a representation of how many blue smashes were awarded for each of these top games
that we have footage of, and the percentage of actual score was earned from blue smashes.

Blue smashes are completely RNG-based and depend totally on cooperation from the game.
Mitchell's blue smash count is extraordinarily over the mean, and is indicative that he did not
know how to play at the desired pace target, therefore used MAME's rewind feature to
utilize blue smash RNG as a crutch to get there.

Before Jeremy and John did their research, this was purely circumstantial. However, paired
with their evidence, it is very compelling.

02-04-2018, 06:29 AM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

I would like to present a chart I've held onto for about a year now:

Attachment 49589

This is a representation of how many blue smashes were awarded for each of these top games
that we have footage of, and the percentage of actual score was earned from blue smashes.

Before Jeremy and John did their research, this was purely circumstantial. However, paired
with their evidence, it is very compelling.

Is there a chart like this for the score that officially disputed here of 1.062

02-04-2018, 06:31 AM
Riatoju

I'm confused, why does an emulator draw the screen differently from the actual hardware, I
thought emulators had to accurately mimic the hardware for a game to properly work. Any
difference could throw off how the game operates. I can't see any reasonExhibit
why theAauthors of
- 000105
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 105/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

MAME would have the drawing emulation operate differently from the actual hardware it
makes zero sense.

02-04-2018, 06:32 AM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Is there a chart like this for the score that officially disputed here of 1.062

No full tape of the 1.062m has ever been released, so we could only use Billy's next-highest
score that actually does have a leaked tape.

02-04-2018, 06:37 AM
andrewg

Just gonna say this again:

Just because someone is good at a game doesn't mean they won't cheat.

Reasons someone who is good would cheat: Spotlight, fame, money, lack of time, laziness,
lack of motivation to get a good score, and the fact that most won't question it or your ability
to achieve it.

Hardcore fans: "He doesn't need to cheat because he is Billy Mitchell."

I don't deny Billy is good at games, but anyone can cheat. Just because he can achieve a score
doesn't mean he wouldn't cheat to do so.

We found our first witch, why would we stop there?

02-04-2018, 06:41 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Most emulation is inexact. MAME devs are still finding nuances in old games that are still not
accurately emulated. There used to be a difference in Pac-Man (may still be there) where the
length of time a ghost takes to go through a tunnel was different in MAME, for example.

02-04-2018, 06:44 AM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I'm confused, why does an emulator draw the screen differently from the actual hardware, I
thought emulators had to accurately mimic the hardware for a game to properly work. Any
Exhibit A - 000106
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 106/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

difference could throw off how the game operates. I can't see any reason why the authors of
MAME would have the drawing emulation operate differently from the actual hardware it
makes zero sense.

Hector, with all due respect, I'm not convinced you've actually read all of Jeremy's extensive
post with his evidence. It goes in great detail to explain this question, and others which you
have asked. Please thoroughly read the post, as things like this only muddy the waters in
something that should otherwise be a slam dunk.

02-04-2018, 06:46 AM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Go back and read the original post, it explains it better than I can. Maybe the authors of
MAME did that so it at least it would be playable/emulate on a PC, etc. It might have been a
work around. I bet someone will chime in shortly why. If MAME and Arcade were the same
thing we wouldn't be having this dispute.

02-04-2018, 06:51 AM
RTM

Wes, not sure if this will help, but I already have the count of smashes done for the 1.014M
earlier performance from 2005, in case checking out the earlier progress would hold some
meaning.

Drop me a PM with your E-MAIL and I can forward you the EXCEL files. I also happen to
have the same analysis done for Steve's 1.006M game.

02-04-2018, 06:58 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Okay I had to go back to reread it, it didn't make sense at the time but now I get it.

02-04-2018, 07:32 AM
maxim_recoil
2 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000107
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 107/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Now I don't know what to believe. Notice in this video the monitors are sideways, a direct
feed from authentic boards would cause this to happen

Recording from MAME would cause that to happen too, as long as you rotated the game in
the MAME settings. For example, this is MAME being displayed on my PC monitor:

Attachment 49591

Quote:

not to mention these particular Nintendo boards only work with Nintendo monitors which
means the technician would have had to make a converter for this so it could be recorded to a
VHS,

Nintendo arcade boards work with any standard ~15 Khz RGB arcade monitor. However,
Nintendo arcade boards output inverted colors, so if you connect one directly to a monitor
that is not a Nintendo/Sanyo monitor, the displayed colors will be inverted (Nintendo/Sanyo
monitors invert the colors by design, so when you invert inverted colors they are back to
normal). Nintendo/Sanyo monitors include a color inverter board (most of them do, anyway).
It is not used with Nintendo boards, but it is used if you want to connect a non-Nintendo
board to a Nintendo/Sanyo monitor. You could also use it if recording gameplay from a
Nintendo board (no need to build one). Even if you didn't have a color inverter board, you
could capture your gameplay digitally, then use video editing software to invert the colors
back to normal in the recording, then record the color-corrected digital video to a VHS tape.
You could also go from tape to digital, color-correct, and then back to tape, but that would
result in an extra generation of loss.

Quote:

where with MAME they could directly feed it to a VCR from a video capture device used on
a PC.

You don't use a video capture device for that. A capture device is for transferring analog video
to your PC, not the other way around. You would need a video card which has NTSC output
(e.g., composite video).

Quote:

Not to mention, MAME properly orients the screen which would make putting the monitors
sideways unnecessary.

Yes, MAME does that by default, but like I and others have mentioned, it's a simple setting to
rotate it 90 degrees. Or you can globally disable MAME's default function of auto-rotating
vertical games to display upright on horizontal monitors, in which case all of the vertical
games will display in their raw state like the arcade boards do.

02-04-2018, 07:33 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Exhibit A - 000108
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 108/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Compare the 1.047M footage with any footage from King of Kong. Here's some bonus
footage.

Compare the 1.05M footage with footage post by Settle It On The Screen (formerly TG
Podcast?), here.

And Billy is standing in front of playback of his 1.062M. Unless you're saying that's NOT his
gameplay?

I just want to get on the record where each of these videos came from? Who did they come
from and how were they leaked. I apologize if this was answered already but knowing where
each video came from is pretty important.

02-04-2018, 07:58 AM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Hector, if I didn't know better I'd say you were intentionally trying to muddy the waters in this
dispute thread.

Tapes of Billy's play were leaked by multiple TG refs to multiple DK players over the years.
The latest leak came from Dwayne over a year ago, but it wasn't the only source of footage.
Again, the jigsaw rendering problem is exhibited in the footage shown that Billy is standing
right in front of when presenting the 1.062m, the score this dispute thread is all about. This
is a bug in MAME and has absolutely nothing to do with the capture method.

You, of course, would know this information if you comprehensively read Jeremy's post.

02-04-2018, 08:03 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Any updates on this evidence?

02-04-2018, 08:05 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

Hector, if I didn't know better I'd say you were intentionally trying to muddy the waters in this
dispute thread.
Exhibit A - 000109
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 109/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

You, of course, would know this information if you comprehensively read Jeremy's post.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters, I'm asking on behalf of interested parties close to Billy as
I'm assuming he wants to know. I can't find where someone posted where the tapes came from
but maybe I missed it.

I don't get why everyone here has a problem with me asking questions, that's part of what's
going in here and if I'm missing stuff or don't understand I apologize but give me a chance,
I'm not the only one who doesn't fully understand what's going on here, I'm trying to gather
info to report back.

02-04-2018, 08:07 AM
WCopeland

I specifically told Billy over two years ago that I had his tapes. This should not be a shocker
to him.

02-04-2018, 08:10 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

No matter how this turns out I'm still voting NO!

An incredible statement. Completely dismissing any and all evidence that has either been
presented or might be presented in the future. In one single sentence, you've let it be known
that you will not be swayed from a subjective opinion based entirely on hearsay. Even if
tomorrow Billy were to come out and issue a confession, by your own statement, you would
still vote no. This is you going on the record as to what motivates your vote.

02-04-2018, 08:11 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Probably easier just to have people ask their own questions and thoroughly read the evidence
themselves.
Exhibit A - 000110
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 110/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-04-2018, 08:14 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Any updates on this evidence?

Yeah an anonymous friend is talking with Tanner about it as we speak. But I feel what was
gathered here is way stronger as we all been discussing it privately and it's evident that it may
not contribute much to this discussion. Tanner would know better than me, he can chime in,
he could lay it out better than I can but again maybe it's nothing new.

02-04-2018, 08:16 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

Probably easier just to have people ask their own questions and thoroughly read the evidence
themselves.

They are reading it and not getting it fully. Even then that's what the purpose of this dispute is
for, asking questions gathering evidence. I don't get why that's a problem. It's going to get
repetitive I'm sure, Dragster did. This is well laid out but I'm not the only one who finds it
confusing.

02-04-2018, 08:19 AM
WCopeland

Part of the confusion here is TG's forum software wasn't able to format Jeremy's GIFs
correctly for the side by side view.

Check the DKF thread that was posted -- it's a lot easier to follow and understand.

02-04-2018, 08:19 AM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

I'm beginning to see things as a witch hunt on the older generation gamer's.

No one is questioning what he did in the 80s or his skill. We are questioning a single
submission just a decade ago where the technology was already readily available to record a
proper attempt.

In today's age of ***** recording equipment, there is no excuse to not fully document your
record attempts. There was no reason Billy couldnt have recorded himself in front of an
original can and shown the boards on camera.

So what we are left with is the tape he allowed people to watch at one event. The TG
community has the responsibility for judging it's validity.

02-04-2018, 08:20 AM
Exhibit A - 000111
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 111/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

IAmNerdJock

*original cab

02-04-2018, 08:20 AM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I'm trying to gather info to report back.

You should link them this thread so they can ask these questions themselves.

02-04-2018, 08:28 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Probably easier just to have people read the dispute for themselves and ask their own
questions.

Obviously I am not discouraging people from asking their own questions. I am encouraging
people to ask their own questions.

Attempting to ask questions for other people based on not understanding things and then
trying to ferry that info back to other sources just seems like a silly game of telephone that
won’t help anyone.

Probably best for people to read the dispute themselves and ask their own questions.

02-04-2018, 08:29 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

Part of the confusion here is TG's forum software wasn't able to format Jeremy's GIFs
correctly for the side by side view.

Check the DKF thread that was posted -- it's a lot easier to follow and understand.

It's all very solid and damning if you ask me, I got enough were I can explain it to people
now. Yeah the tapes origins have come into question but the answer is satisfying enough. I've
known you and the folks in the Donkey Kong community for a while now. I also knew this
was in the works for a very long time. You guys did a great job putting this together.

02-04-2018, 08:44 AM
Riatoju
Exhibit A - 000112
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 112/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

Probably easier just to have people read the dispute for themselves and ask their own
questions.

Obviously I am not discouraging people from asking their own questions. I am encouraging
people to ask their own questions.

Probably best for people to read the dispute themselves and ask their own questions.

I totally get that. These guys want no part, but I know enough now that there isn't much else
to tell them. I have friends who are friends with Billy and they are convinced, they are also
friends with Todd but they weren't convinced about Dragster.

02-04-2018, 08:48 AM
Riatoju

There is enough evidence here and from past submissions for Donkey Kong to say I can't see
why Billy wouldn't get the Todd treatment? Am I crazy for bringing this up? Or do we expect
him to get special treatment. I'm actually curious.

02-04-2018, 08:51 AM
Robert.F
100 people around Billy, with cellphones and videos at Boomers

Billy tells the story of the 100 people around him with cellphones and videos at Boomers
when he set the Donkey Kong record ,,, can anyone pls anyone who was there pls come
foreword show up your videos of bill playing his record scoring games,, a video of the screen
and score pls if any have :) i like at the end of video Billy blocking the screen im sure that
was not intentional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVGt...ature=youtu.be

02-04-2018, 09:13 AM
Max

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

The thread is for evidence or the discussion of evidence, not presumed TG actions. This
question may be best served by way of a wall post, otherwise it risks derailing the intent of
the issue at hand. It is in all of our interests to make every effort to maintain focus in dispute
threads.

Evidence supplied in this thread has already been adequate for DKF to take action.
Exhibit A - 000113
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 113/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

TG has clearly set precedent as to how they handle intentionally falsified scores, regardless as
to who is making the score claim.

02-04-2018, 09:19 AM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I totally get that. These guys want no part

Ok, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

They are reading it and not getting it fully. Even then that's what the purpose of this dispute is
for, asking questions gathering evidence.

Seems like they do have reason to post here if this statement is true. They could ask these
questions directly here instead of you acting as their only conduit of understanding the
material. They would likely understand it more comprehensively this way, since the person
who created the evidence package is also here and willing to elaborate on any specifics that
are unclear to them.

02-04-2018, 09:35 AM
thegamer1185

Can we stop using "witch hunt" as a term? It's dumb. First of all, "witch hunts" actually
burned people alive based on exactly what Billy's blind backers are doing. He said this and I
believe him, lets burn the *****. No people. Same thing happened with Todd. So lets analyze
this from my perspective, that of a guy who doesn't know Billy, who has only been around
since 2014, and could actually give two ****s less about a score being removed unless it was
found to be faked. Key word there is faked/cheated. Then I give a ****.

So, the people who backed Todd seem to be some of the very same group that is backing
Billy. Fine, circle of friends. All good with me. Here is where it gets silly. Firstly, the people
who backed Todd and Billy are saying this is a "witch hunt" because name it. We are jealous,
we are the new generation. Not accurate. It's actually the older players who had issues with
the scores because again, I don't give a **** about Dragster and never heard of Todd until the
dispute. Still don't care. Moving along with the reasons we are "witch hunting", we aren't
purists of gaming, we can't beat their scores so they cheated, you believe in unicorns. OK, so
your using the everyone is against these players and WE ARE ALL IN ON IT. Everyone. All
of us. We all somehow woke up the same day and said, Todd and Billy are no longer welcome
in any gaming community. The evidence is presented that is so strong in favor of our
conspiracy that the "Legends and Friends" only come back is they say he did it/saw him do it.
OK. We will just have to take your words for it and turn a blind eye like everyone did back in
the day. Wait, that's not accurate at all is it. I meant silenced. So hard to keep track of all these
things. Not one person in the Todd dispute or Billy dispute has presented one single piece of
evidence that could actually be taken seriously. Think about that. Not one. There is evidence
of Billy's performance right here in the dispute and instead of using it to confirm his score, we
get nothing but how the evidence isn't right because it could be this. Did you do this? The
evidence is there people, they have done it. What your talking about isn't disproving the
evidence presented. Show us something as to why the score is valid. Or disprove the
Exhibit A - 000114
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 114/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

evidence. I find it even funnier that instead of proving these things yourselves, your asking
the people who presented the evidence you disapprove of to do it for you, haha. Think about
that. The ones you don't already believe are the ones you want to do your work for you?
WTF?

The people who are doing these disputes are doing the same thing to the "Legends and
Friends". They are going to take every single one of them down, systematically until not a
single one of them is left. There is a long list of people created by some people from back in
the day that used to be refs, and where all friends and most have scores that are questionable.
I say most, but if the theory is correct, every single TG ref will be found as a cheat and
removed, right? That's what a "witch hunt" is people. You don't leave a single person left
standing, that's why it's called a "witch hunt". After all these "witches" are dealt with, they
will turn on each other and start tearing one another apart. Because the evidence that is being
presented against these former refs will start giving us the idea that if it's true for one, it's true
for all. That's not accurate either, the term "witch hunt" is what will determine the destruction
of every Ref who has ever existed. This conspiracy of a "witch hunt" is so strong that the refs
are in on it, knowing that will eventually be removed because of it. This **** is for reals
people.

Of course, the true ending to this story is it becomes a zombie apocalypse. Hector, I've said it
many times on facebook and I honestly can't believe you still doing it. Tell those people to
come here and look at the evidence and defend/prove Billy did the score. This is nonsense.
Why even waste your time with it, man. Tell them to grow a pair and come talk to the people
they are having the problem with to begin with. Oh, that's right, we TG people are cowards.

02-04-2018, 09:36 AM
thegamer1185

By the way, regarding the "witch hunt" term, I'd prefer if we called it "the cleansing". Just me
though.

02-04-2018, 09:54 AM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Many things

Wow that is a whole lot going on that's directly related to this score for people who
supposedly want no part in this dispute.

02-04-2018, 09:55 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

By the way, regarding the "witch hunt" term, I'd prefer if we called it "the cleansing". Just me
though.

Maybe "The Purge" or my favorite but over the top "Operation snuff out all the corrupted
people and have their scores removed so we can get back to gaming...plan" or
"OSOATCPAHTSRSWCGBTG...P" for short.
Exhibit A - 000115
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 115/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-04-2018, 09:57 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

Wow that is a whole lot going on that's directly related to this score for people who
supposedly want no part in this dispute.

I don't play games when the kids are awake, it's cold outside, I'm seasonally unemployed.
What the hell am I supposed to do?

02-04-2018, 10:13 AM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I don't play games when the kids are awake, it's cold outside, I'm seasonally unemployed.
What the hell am I supposed to do?

Oh no, that wasn't directed to you or your post. That was more aimed to those who are bold
enough to post to facebook that this is apparently a "witch hunt" but not brave enough to back
it up with hard evidence here.

02-04-2018, 10:14 AM
serphintizer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVGt...ature=youtu.be

Yeah, that part had me rollin'.

Backed up like a shark!

02-04-2018, 10:36 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I don't get why everyone here has a problem with me asking questions, that's part of what's
Exhibit A - 000116
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 116/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

going in here and if I'm missing stuff or don't understand I apologize but give me a chance,
I'm not the only one who doesn't fully understand what's going on here, I'm trying to gather
info to report back.

billy and all these interested parties dont seem to interested to come here themselves. it would
seem if they wanted the info, it would be better to come there, than go through you. using you
as an inbetween as opposed to getting the info directly, well thats really just emulating
reading of the thread as opposed to reading it for real. hmm, now that i think of it like that,
and billy's love of emulation, i believe you.

02-04-2018, 10:44 AM
Marcade

Hector Telloc: The "Brian Kuh" role of modern day TGSAP!!! :P

02-04-2018, 10:46 AM
Barra

Billy supporters don’t want to come here because they know their “evidence” will be swiftly
and severely debunked by those who actually have a clue what’s going on.

This isn’t a “witch-hunt” to take down the previous generation. This score (and others) have
been questioned for YEARS. Only now is there a way to make it official.

02-04-2018, 10:49 AM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

Billy supporters don’t want to come here because they know their “evidence” will be swiftly
and severely debunked by those who actually have a clue what’s going on.

This isn’t a “witch-hunt” to take down the previous generation. This score (and others) have
been questioned for YEARS. Only now is there a way to make it official.

Well put. It's the only conclusion I could come to as well.

02-04-2018, 10:53 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

Well put. It's the only conclusion I could come to as well.

Seriously, "The cleansing".

02-04-2018, 10:53 AM
xelnia

It would be difficult, if not impossible, for me to try and respond to everything that's
happening on social media. I did attempt to post something for someone on Facebook who
was misguidedly trying to create counter-evidence. That response was either missed or
ignored...so what am I supposed to do? TG also can't be expected to track down every
Exhibit A - 000117
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 117/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Facebook or Twitter post as they make their decision. Evidence has been presented for the
two relevant bodies to assess: DKF and TG. Anyone wishing to be taken seriously as they
dispute (or even support) that evidence should do so on those respective forums...not by
proxy.

02-04-2018, 10:56 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

It would be difficult, if not impossible, for me to try and respond to everything that's
happening on social media. I did attempt to post something for someone on Facebook who
was misguidedly trying to create counter-evidence. That response was either missed or
ignored...so what am I supposed to do? TG also can't be expected to track down every
Facebook or Twitter post as they make their decision. Evidence has been presented for the
two relevant bodies to assess: DKF and TG. Anyone wishing to be taken seriously as they
dispute (or even support) that evidence should do so on those respective forums...not by
proxy.

Yep, understandable. There have plenty of TG people on facebook telling those Billy
believers to bring their questions here. Not really sure what more anybody can do other than
to point them to the source. Us cowards here at TG are just to lazy to go find them I guess.
Shame on us all for telling them to go to the source.

02-04-2018, 10:56 AM
Snowflake

I understand discerning between intentional trolling and honest mistakes as well as honest
questions can be difficult

I understand many of us get off topic

Even still, this thread was very logical and very informative for a while. Then it seemed to
really get cluttered. Now, even people who want the valuable information are gonna have
trouble finding it. Can I suggest admins take time to considering maybe removing certain
individuals posting ability? I would suggest a very light hand since intentions are hard to read,
but when it becomes really clear someone is just here to throw in clutter and make it harder
for people to find info I think something should be done. Maybe give us a chance to
downvote and hide comments? Theres gotta be some solution. Most people arent gonna have
time to sift through the foolishness to find the gold, and thats really unfortunate

02-04-2018, 11:03 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Exhibit A - 000118
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 118/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

They don't want nothing to do with this community, I gave them links, discussed this with
them, ect...They had questions that I was interested in hearing myself, go between or not, I
wanted to know as well. It's settled now. If someone had evidence that could save Billy I'd
post it here. As you know there are people who think they have stuff but it's useless. There is
no one that can save Billy from this except Billy, maybe he'll say something, maybe he won't,
whatever. At this point I already spoke to more than a dozen people, they get it but they all
have their reservations, some talk about witnesses they spoke to, some talk about waiting for
Billy to respond. Some were convinced of the evidence. You all know as well as I there is
nothing left! It's time to sit back and enjoy the ride :)

02-04-2018, 11:04 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Hector Telloc: The "Brian Kuh" role of modern day TGSAP!!! :P

I have a friend named Rod Togers who wants to dispute your scores.
You better watch out, I heard he is the Marc Cohen of petty disputes.

02-04-2018, 11:10 AM
Robert.F

spare the Rod Togers and spoil the child :)

02-04-2018, 11:11 AM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I have a friend named Rod Togers who wants to dispute your scores.
You better watch out, I heard he is the Marc Cohen of petty disputes.

When it comes to Petty, and disputes (with evidence like I see here) ...No I "Wont back
down".

Attachment 49599

02-04-2018, 11:31 AM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

After a lot of thought and talking to people who were at this event and swear Billy actually
achieved these scores I find it more and more difficult to think this was faked. Maybe
someone else edited some video or something in the past to make it look that way but do you
really believe at a live event, with so many people in attendance, that this was actually faked
and everybody is in on it and staying hush hush? It's not even close to being a impossible
score and it's 200K off the current world record on Donkey Kong.
Exhibit A - 000119
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 119/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Yes, I totally admit that I've wondered about this score for years myself and I've been on the
fence about it but people have told me point blank, they were there and witnessed it!

Stephen, thank you for your input. I appreciate your perspective. Do you know if the people
you talked to that swear they were at the Boomers event and witnessed this 1,062,800 score
live would be willing to post a statement to that effect? Ideally, they'd make that statement
here on this thread, but I understand not everyone is a verified TG member or choses to
frequent the TG site. So, if they could post it elsewhere and someone could at least share
screenshots or links that would help as well. I feel if there are eyewitnesses that will attest to
the performance, that should be recorded on this dispute thread.

Also, can you make sure they are talking about this particular score, and not another score?
Billy has a lot of scores, included performances at the Kong Offs, many of which lots of well
know Donkey Kong players saw and of which there is plenty of video showing him playing.
He's definitely performed live kill-screen arcade Donkey Kong games. I'm interested in this
1,062,800 score. If we can't find witnesses that will swear they witnessed this score being
performed live on an arcade Donkey Kong machine, can we find them for his 1.05M or
1.047M scores?

Thanks,
George

02-04-2018, 11:56 AM
CWK

Based on the proof of Billy's other scores being done in mame I'm going to go out on a limb
and say this score was probably done the same way. Crazy rng also suggests a doctored inp in
his previous score

02-04-2018, 11:57 AM
CWK

Accepted!!

02-04-2018, 12:24 PM
Riatoju
1 Attachment(s)

I love you Wes and I have nothing but respect for you but this just gave my brain cancer.

Attachment 49601

02-04-2018, 12:41 PM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I love you Wes and I have nothing but respect for you but this just gave my brain cancer.

Attachment 49601

Completely irrelevant to the dispute & is something that should be sent to Wes via PM instead
of in this thread.
Exhibit A - 000120
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 120/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-04-2018, 12:43 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by zallard1

Completely irrelevant to the dispute & is something that should be sent to Wes via PM instead
of in this thread.

Oh you know you love it :)

02-04-2018, 12:53 PM
Riatoju

its true though...everything she says and provides are IRRELEVANT

02-04-2018, 01:19 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

its true though...everything she says and provides are IRRELEVANT

Then why post it here of all places?

02-04-2018, 01:23 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Then why post it here of all places?

Oh fine I'll stop. I figured I'd brighten everyone's day.

02-04-2018, 01:24 PM
Snowflake

we need to drop the appeals to authority and the ad hominems. I dont care if some disliked
person off site believes the score is fake. I dont care if some liked person thinks the score is
real, i care about evidence.

Now, that said, witnesses accounts do count for something. In the case of witnesses, we can
evaluate the trustworthiness and weather or not the witness testimony is believable. At that
point, its not ad hominem at all to question the witnesses reliablitly and expertise. I'd like to
point out, if I saw billy playing a game i'd say "oh neat billy mitchel playing" i wouldnt stare
the entire time looking with a keen eye like I would if i was an official ref or adjudicator. The
fact someone just happened to be near while he was playing doesnt mean a lot. Likewise
someone with a reputation of making things up doenst mean a lot. The only time to talk about
an individual, is as a witness, and if that witness is not just trust worthy but also took the time
to actually thoroughly examine the performance.

02-04-2018, 01:27 PM
DadsGlasses
Exhibit A - 000121
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 121/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I would also add that any “witness” should come forward on his or her own. There is no need
to hear from someone that “knew a witness or talked to a witness or heard about a witness”.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

02-04-2018, 01:29 PM
Riatoju

Wasn't this score performed in a backroom while all the witnesses watched in another room?
I'd hardly call that a witness. Or was that another event?

02-04-2018, 01:42 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I wouldn't really say eye witness testimony would be any good here. The youtube video of
billy sitting in front of the two monitors shows without a doubt his "direct feed" came from a
mame cabinet. Even if people came forward and said they saw him perform it that wouldn't be
enough evidence.

02-04-2018, 02:10 PM
The Evener Exhibit A - 000122
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 122/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=7y15Y6xrpXY

Unfortunately there isn't a barrel transition to compare in this instance - it only provides
footage of the pie transition.

I decided to listen to Billy's explanation of how he ended up with the score of 1,062,800. I
backed it up a bit for context. Apparently 1100 points is a significant marker in passing Hank
Chien's record:

Yes, it's a million sixty-two thousand eight hundred and I know it's been said that I passed the
score by the same mark that I did Steve - the truth is I was going up the last ladder and the
last board that I played - I was calculating the last - the score and the bonus - I saw that I had
beaten it by 12 hundred - I just sort of stalled for a second and then I went across losing a
hundred points so I beat it by 11 hundred points - yeah, maybe that's a little bit of a wise guy -
but it's fun

He must be talking about the last rivets board, as the next and final screen is barrel.

A small error in Billy's explanation - so he finds a quiet place to calculate that he has the
current world record beat by 1200 points with score and bonus combined, so he stalls for a
second so the bonus drops 100, and then he crosses the last rivet - "I went across losing a
hundred points so I beat it by 11 hundred point." He forgot you get 100 points for clearing a
rivet.

To Hector's question - at Boomers arcade Billy recalled:

There was lots of hugs and kisses and hootin' and hollering...There were scores of people -
maybe as much as a hundred people at a time behind you - they had their cell phones and
videos, so word leaked out to some degree one way or another [before the announcement]

To my knowledge, no one has ever seen footage or photos on social media from the 100+
audience documenting the moment.

02-04-2018, 02:16 PM
xelnia

It's not particularly relevant to the evidence at hand, but I'd like to share this post from over at
CAGDC. In that post, Ben Jos Walbeehm recounts the pain and suffering he went through
after he beat Billy's 1982 score using MAME. He was actually the first publicly known
person to beat Billy at DK, pre-dating Tim Sczerby's arcade WR. It's heart-breaking to read
how he was treated by the community, especially knowing what we know now about Billy's
use of MAME.

Ben Jos was a DK champion, and he rarely gets the credit for it.

02-04-2018, 02:31 PM
The Evener
Exhibit A - 000123
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 123/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

[snip]A small error in Billy's explanation.

Argh - I hate quoting myself, but I can't edit an existing post. I recall we don't know what the
last screen Billy played - I think it's been suggested he didn't go for the kill screen in this one?
He could have paused on the last ladder on the second barrel on Level 21, forfeiting points the
next rivet screen to maintain his 1100 margin. Sorry about that.

02-04-2018, 02:35 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Unfortunately there isn't a barrel transition to compare in this instance - it only provides
footage of the pie transition.

Yes. However, the pie transition rasterization on MAME is not the same as the Arcade
rasterization to original CRT and adding the pie comparison to the image document provided
previously may be helpful as a complete reference point as we continue to dig further into this
matter.

Again, only asking for this if he is inclined to add it. We are already aware of the animated gif
provided in this thread and the video itself for our own examination.

02-04-2018, 04:27 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Again, only asking for this if he is inclined to add it. We are already aware of the animated gif
provided in this thread and the video itself for our own examination.

If you catch the video with the two screens when a level is starting. You can slow down
youtube to .25 speed and it is actually very evident that it is mame rendering the game.

02-04-2018, 05:30 PM
Robert.F
what wrong with you

What wrong with you Billy why dont you Defend yourself! , id be kicking up my heals and
spouting foul words by now if i felt i was being mistreated or Wrongly accused

02-04-2018, 06:02 PM
RTM

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000124
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 124/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by The Evener

RTM REPLY - Bill pulled this stunt on at least two prior occasions. One I am 100% sure
of...he did this in conjunction with the 1,047,200 point performance revealed at ACAM 2005
where he willfully threw points away just to achieve two (2) target goals within the game
(000,000 roll-over in the L=20 elevator stage and the 1,047,200...exactly 100K higher than
Wiebe's original submission to TG).

From what I remember being told, he did it again at a subsequent event, and the quote he gave
at the time was that he was just "being BIlly Mitchell" as he abandoned the game in progress
at a certain point nowhere near the kill screen.

As for the 1100 point differential, it was stated in some post within the TG forum what the
significance of this number is to Bill...I just cannot remember the details of it.

02-04-2018, 06:04 PM
Barra

I thought the “1100” points was some sort of reference to 1.1m, which hadn’t been achieved
at the time

02-04-2018, 06:19 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

Billy supporters don’t want to come here because they know their “evidence” will be swiftly
and severely debunked by those who actually have a clue what’s going on

RTM REPLY - not "entirely" accurate.

Some "supporters" he has lost over the years, myself included, because of number of actions
and inactions on his part largely stemming from how he acted post-KoK. He claimed never to
have seen it was but made aware of the statements contained within, and was perfectly fine
with having some of us posting and defending on his behalf on the TG forum, the old
Picturehouse forum and elsewhere.

Others just never post on the TG forum. I cannot remember the last time that I saw either
Brian Kuh or Chris Ayra make a post even before the relaunch by Jace.

Lastly, a lot of the "old TG'ers" quite simply avoid the new forum. Bear in mind that the
golden era of gamers are now in their 50's and beyond, and monitoring gaming forums let
along keeping pace with recent developments, never mind throwing themselves into the
"arena" of public debate, is not something that many of them want to engage in. I can't blame
them for a number of reasons.
Exhibit A - 000125
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 125/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Perhaps Bill's biggest supporter for 30+ years has been Walter...has anyone tried to get a
statement from him ?

02-05-2018, 06:38 AM
francoisadt

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

My igoramnt question: If this Billy did perform on a MAME DK cabinet hen it is just a
MAME score and not a Arcde PCB score? Is there clear evidence that he did not lay the DK
"MAME" enabled cabinet games at all? What if he did but the reording was only that of a
MAME game? If proven to be so will his score listed under MAME at TG?

02-05-2018, 07:04 AM
Muerto

Just spend 2 hours to get up to date, do to all the noise posted...

Is there a way to make links at the top of a dispute, that actually takes you to the evidence - so
one doesn't have to spend hours and hours reading about ppl joking/*****ing each other/etc?
Maybe it's in a future update? @jac eHall

02-05-2018, 07:05 AM
Muerto

And it was @Jace Hall

Please read above

02-05-2018, 07:20 AM
Robert.F
lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

"If proven to be so will his score listed under MAME at TG?" ha ha ha ha :) , no i think he be
tarted the same way As Todd Rogers , Todd Rogers got scores removed and Ban for falsifying
records in TG data banks , Bill more less doing the the same thing if it true, it call
multiplication of the system! cheating for the lack of a better word and with this mame thing
who`s to say Billy even play theses games and just got INP from another source...:) the
possibilities are endless when using this method of mame with no sound and no boot up
screen on top of it.

02-05-2018, 08:06 AM
Exhibit A - 000126
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 126/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM

It should be pointed out that any scores banned by TG are NOT automatically banned by
other record tracking organizations.

SO...of the outcome of the Bill Mitchell ban results in the same treatment as was handed
down for the scores by Todd Rogers, then should TG no longer recognize his scores inclusive
of the "perfect Pacman", the Aurcade scoreboard, which handles scores set at ACAM and
other Aurcade affiliates, is unaffected by that decision.

02-05-2018, 08:10 AM
RTM

In all fairness, with respect to the lengthy pictorial posting by ErockBrox...

When Bill said he was playing "two...two long" he most likely was being dramatic and meant
"too...too long".

Just my thoughts on that part.

02-05-2018, 08:45 AM
Robert.F
yes

yes bill thinks he`s funny

02-05-2018, 11:34 AM
maximumsteve
The Salem Witch Hunt of Billy Mitchell LOL...

For those that don't know me, My name is Steven Kleisath and I am the undisputed Guinness
and TG world record holder for High Scores of "Mario Bros." single player and doubles play.
I mention this because a score being legitimate is as important to me, when I know the hard
work and determination it takes to break through to take down a mammoth score. I am just
catching up with this relentless scrutiny of Billy Mitchell's DK scores on here and on the
Donkey Kong Forum website.

I am friends with Billy Mitchell and Robert Childs. I have known them for years, and interact
with them regularly on our Retro Arcade Night event we put on throughout the year at Arcade
Game Sales in Fort Lauderdale, FL.

On a personal note, I have known these guys for years, and they have families and full time
careers of their own, and don't have time to go to such lengths to fabricate game scores.
As for the Direct Feed/MAME board part of this....
There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the
defect on the right hand side. There is no way you can emulate a monitor defect like this in
Mame, so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet, there would be a significant, obvious
wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture, then it
wouldn't have the monitor defect. I haven't read into the whole post explaining the allegations,
but from the screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo
EZ20 Monitor.
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then, and even if they were, I am not aware
of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust an inverted video signal. For example,
if your TV screen had a bunch of wavy lines and you recorded the Super Bowl on your DVR,
then moved that DVR to a different TV, you shouldn't see any wavy lines.
In closing for now, Billy Mitchell will begin addressing this whole situation tommorrow,
Tuesday February 6th, between 7:00-8:30 PM at https://www.compoundmedia.com on the
East Side Dave Show. MUCH will be revealed in Audio and Video form in the coming
weeks, so tune in and stay tuned.

02-05-2018, 11:47 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

whats the timezone for this?

02-05-2018, 11:51 AM
maximumsteve
Time Zone is EST, Eastern Standard Time...

Time Zone is EST, Eastern Standard Time...

02-05-2018, 11:52 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Boomers, also known as Grand Prix Raceway, which was considered the world's largest
arcade at the time, ironically did not have a DK cabinet at that time, so a distributor brought
to the venue the cabinet that Bill would play on. Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance,
Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the distributor who brought the game was there,
but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a
family member, was 100% there in attendance at the time of the rollover of the game, along
with others witnessing in the room.

Thanks for the account. Just so that I am clear, when you say these people witnessed the
rollover do you mean they witnessed Billy Mitchell playing the game and causing
Exhibit A the
- 000128
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 128/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

wollover? Or do you mean they witnessed the rollover playback or a recording on a monitor?

Thanks.

02-05-2018, 12:40 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

Billy claimed it was done on a real cabinet. Since he lied I would assume he would be taken
off the leaderboard for either.

02-05-2018, 12:43 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

I also consider myself a friend to some of the DK players that have launched this new wave of
trying to disprove Bill's past scores on Donkey Kong.
It is to the point where I feel I need to give my 2 cents worth of what I know and what I
believe to be true and clear.
First order of business is Boomers in Fort Lauderdale in 2010.....
Boomers, also known as Grand Prix Raceway, which was considered the world's largest
arcade at the time, ironically did not have a DK cabinet at that time, so a distributor brought
to the venue the cabinet that Bill would play on. Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance,
Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the distributor who brought the game was there,
but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a
family member, was 100% there in attendance at the time of the rollover of the game, along
with others witnessing in the room. These Original Tapes will show not only the gameplay,
but the room overview of everyone that was in attendance. Also the manager of Boomers and
a technician working there, were present.
On a personal note, I have known these guys for years, and they have families and full time
careers of their own, and don't have time to go to such lengths to fabricate game scores.
As for the Direct Feed/MAME board part of this....
There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the
defect on the right hand side. There is no way you can emulate a monitor defect like this in
Exhibit A - 000129
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 129/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Mame, so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet, there would be a significant, obvious
wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture, then it
wouldn't have the monitor defect. I haven't read into the whole post explaining the allegations,
but from the screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo
EZ20 Monitor.
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then, and even if they were, I am not aware
of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust an inverted video signal. For example,
if your TV screen had a bunch of wavy lines and you recorded the Super Bowl on your DVR,
then moved that DVR to a different TV, you shouldn't see any wavy lines.
In closing for now, Billy Mitchell will begin addressing this whole situation tommorrow,
Tuesday February 6th, between 7:00-8:30 PM at https://www.compoundmedia.com on the
East Side Dave Show. MUCH will be revealed in Audio and Video form in the coming
weeks, so tune in and stay tuned.

The video of him standing in front of 2 TVs saying he broke the world record, the screen
showing the donkey kong game is obviously a mame version of donkey kong. Are you saying
he recorded a different world record specifically on the MAME cabinet? It doesn't matter who
was there or who saw what. The video evidence shows he was using a mame cabinet for his
million point games.

02-05-2018, 12:58 PM
maxim_recoil
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Can you link to what you are referring to by "the T.V. post"? By the way, there's no mistaking
a direct-feed recording for a video-camera-pointed-at-the-screen recording. The most obvious
difference is that you can't get a straight-on view of an arcade monitor while someone is
playing the game (assuming it is an original arcade machine, rather than something with
remote controls), because their head/body is in the way. That's why they are always shot at an
angle.

Quote:

CGA to Vega converters were not available back then

Do you mean CGA to VGA? Those were available back then, and long before that as well.
Also, a CGA to VGA converter is not what you'd need for a direct-feed VHS recording from
an arcade board or a MAME PC rigged to output ~15 KHz RGB. You'd need a ~15 Khz RGB
(sometimes referred to as "CGA") to NTSC video (e.g., composite) converter. Those have
been available for ages. For example, Jrok has sold one for at least ~15 years. Here's the FAQ
page for it - http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB-FAQ.html - and notice the date that it was
last revised (May 10, 2003). You need an RGB to NTSC converter to make a VHS recording
Exhibit A - 000130
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 130/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

because a VCR only has composite inputs.

Quote:

and even if they were, I am not aware of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust
an inverted video signal.

You'll have to be more specific about the "monitor defect", including how you know it's not a
defect of the CRT TV that the tape is being displayed on, but as for the inverted colors, as I
mentioned in a previous post, Sanyo included a color inverter board on the Nintendo arcade
monitors; it is mounted on the flyback cage:

Attachment 49637

It has an input header on the right-hand side and two output headers on top; the one on the
right is labeled "non invert out" and the one on the left is labeled "invert out". "Non invert
out" is simply a pass-through connection. You would use it with a Nintendo game board, or
do like I do, and just not use it at all, but rather, plug the RGB video wires from the game
board directly into the header on the monitor chassis. If using a non-Nintendo gameboard,
you would plug the RGB wires from the game board into the input header on the color
inverter board, then plug one end of that short white video cable into the "invert out" header,
and the other end into the header on the monitor chassis. This will invert the colors from the
non-Nintendo game board, and then the monitor chassis will invert them again, which brings
them back to normal.

In the case of recording a direct feed from MAME, you don't need a color inverter board at
all, because MAME outputs normal colors. You just need a way to output a composite video
signal from your PC so that you can plug it into the composite input on a VCR. You don't
even need an arcade cabinet or arcade monitor of any sort to do this. You can do it at home
from any PC which has a video card with a "TV out" (very common and inexpensive to
obtain if you don't already have one; old laptops often had them by default even).

If you want to do it from a Donkey Kong cabinet which is all original except it is running
MAME instead of the original boardset, that would mean it has a PC that's been rigged to
output a ~15 Khz RGB signal (which can be done via software, such as "Soft15khz", or by
using a special video card such as the Ultimarc ArcadeVGA card), which has been connected
to the "invert out" header on the Sanyo monitor's color inverter board. For this arrangement
you would make a parallel connection with the video cable before it reaches the color inverter
board, and run that parallel connection to e.g., a Jrok RGB to NTSC board, and from there run
a composite video cable to a VCR.

To summarize: there is nothing about a direct feed recording from MAME (or the original
Nintendo boardset for that matter) which is impossible, or even difficult; not now, and not
then.

02-05-2018, 01:00 PM
datagod

Patrick Peterson was interviewed by Kotuako (the huffington post of the gaming world). He
gets his digs in against Billy Mitchell whenever he can. To summarize Peterson's contribution
to the article: "For all we know, he did a white lie and did it on MAME or something on the
computer. I have had lots of questions over the years."

Peterson is on record stating he doesn't know the answer. Great research there, Kotuaku.
Exhibit A - 000131
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 131/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Why would anyone take the word of a person who lied about getting a killscreen on DK
seriously, I'll never know. He made his quest public, did an appearance on a local TV show,
was posting daily scores for months....then nothing. Weeks go by, and Hank Chien submits his
score. A few days later Peterson makes the big announcement, showing a screen cap from
Hank's tape as his own. "L=22". Huge posts in the TG forums, boasting of this life long
achievement. Turns out he was a fraud. What a surprise.

Of course Peterson is out there, pouring gasoline on the fire trying to be seen as relevent. He
is not though. Not at all.

02-05-2018, 01:13 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Billy claimed it was done on a real cabinet.

RTM REPLY - as a matter of semantics, if the surrounding shell (cabinet) was an authentic
DK cabinet yet what was going inside via direct feed was from MAME, then technically
speaking it was a "real cabinet"...if your definition of "cabinet" just pertains to the outer shell.

Then again it could be okay depending on what the definition of the word "is" is...to quote
someone famous who was also under the gun.

02-05-2018, 01:16 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Then again it could be okay depending on what the definition of the word "is" is...to quote
someone famous who was also under the gun.

I forgot how could people could be at spinning stuff. Short of him coming out and saying yea,
it was done on mame but I will go live and twitch and go for a million with a real machine. I
think this matter is done. It is beyond a reasonable doubt the "direct feed" video he is
displaying on the two monitors when showing off the world records is from a mame cabinet.
Donkey Kong is not rendered like that on original hardware.

02-05-2018, 01:16 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

For those that don't know me, My name is Steven Kleisath and I am the undisputed Guinness
and TG world record holder for High Scores of "Mario Bros." single player and doubles
Exhibit play.
A - 000132
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 132/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I mention this because a score being legitimate is as important to me, when I know the hard
work and determination it takes to break through to take down a mammoth score. I am just
catching up with this relentless scrutiny of Billy Mitchell's DK scores on here and on the
Donkey Kong Forum website.

I also consider myself a friend to some of the DK players that have launched this new wave of
trying to disprove Bill's past scores on Donkey Kong.
It is to the point where I feel I need to give my 2 cents worth of what I know and what I
believe to be true and clear.
First order of business is Boomers in Fort Lauderdale in 2010.....
Boomers, also known as Grand Prix Raceway, which was considered the world's largest
arcade at the time, ironically did not have a DK cabinet at that time, so a distributor brought
to the venue the cabinet that Bill would play on. Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance,
Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the distributor who brought the game was there,
but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a
family member, was 100% there in attendance at the time of the rollover of the game, along
with others witnessing in the room. These Original Tapes will show not only the gameplay,
but the room overview of everyone that was in attendance. Also the manager of Boomers and
a technician working there, were present.
On a personal note, I have known these guys for years, and they have families and full time
careers of their own, and don't have time to go to such lengths to fabricate game scores.
As for the Direct Feed/MAME board part of this....
There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the
defect on the right hand side. There is no way you can emulate a monitor defect like this in
Mame, so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet, there would be a significant, obvious
wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture, then it
wouldn't have the monitor defect. I haven't read into the whole post explaining the allegations,
but from the screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo
EZ20 Monitor.
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then, and even if they were, I am not aware
of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust an inverted video signal. For example,
if your TV screen had a bunch of wavy lines and you recorded the Super Bowl on your DVR,
then moved that DVR to a different TV, you shouldn't see any wavy lines.
In closing for now, Billy Mitchell will begin addressing this whole situation tommorrow,
Tuesday February 6th, between 7:00-8:30 PM at https://www.compoundmedia.com on the
East Side Dave Show. MUCH will be revealed in Audio and Video form in the coming
weeks, so tune in and stay tuned.

"First order of business is Boomers in Fort Lauderdale in 2010.....Boomers, Todd Rogers and
his wife were in attendance."
"Robert Childs of course was in attendance" although he did state "billy had to wake him out
of bed" so his attendance not so good.
the distributor who brought the game was there, good that would help .
owner of Twin Galaxies Peter Bouvier was there OK but not import in he`s no longer with us
may he rest in peace. One of Peter family member was there Ok so guess we have mystery
guest that`s nice.
Along with others witnessing in the room,,,we all love to see come foreword and hear there
recollection of the day did any of them watch the whole game till the end?
"These Original Tapes will show not only the gameplay, but the room overview of everyone
that was in attendance" good love to see them.
Exhibit A - 000133
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 133/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Also the manager of Boomers and a technician? working there, were present. Did any of them
watch the whole game till the end?

"On a personal note, I have known these guys for years, and they have families and full time
careers of their own, and don't have time to go to such lengths to fabricate game scores." Ok
so everyones a nice guy and would not lie.

ok lets get to the niddgreedy

"There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the
defect on the right hand side"
No but a recording of mame game on a VCR would , remember i said VCR not to be
confused with a DVR two totally different kinds of technology.

"so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet"

well i dont know about that? what would be the purpose of using mame if you have access to
a working DK pcb. So some people dont fully the understand the dispute no big deal.

you lost me on this one

"obvious wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture,
then it wouldn't have the monitor defect"
sure there would and could , , maybe the monster a peace of crap. Non of this really has
anything to do how mame draws different on the screen over a PCB.

"screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo EZ20
Monitor."
It was how know this? who ever posted this screen shot please comforter and tell what is he
talking about?

" CGA to Vega converters were not available back then"

You mean VGA to RGBS to put mame on an arcade monitor?
Again why would Billy do that if you have access to a working DK pcb.

"For example, if your TV screen had a bunch of wavy lines and you recorded the Super Bowl
on your DVR, then moved that DVR to a different TV, you shouldn't see any wavy lines."
Again Billy using old tapes and VCR`s with tracking issues it would be mess up on any TV it
was hook to.
This not about waves on the screen or drag down edges and bleeding colors , it about how
mame works differently then a PCB , this is about how its not visible to the naked eye; but if
you slow things down things you can see how the the game fills the image on the screen, right
from the vary first frame all ways the same way. the people who brought all this stuff
foreword test over and over to be absolutely certain they where right and it is understandable
by the average non technical person. Give it a read it pretty damning stuff.

02-05-2018, 01:19 PM
RTM

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000134
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 134/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by datagod

Patrick Peterson...He made his quest public, did an appearance on a local TV show, was
posting daily scores for months....then nothing. Weeks go by, and Hank Chien submits his
score. A few days later Peterson makes the big announcement, showing a screen cap from
Hank's tape as his own. "L=22". Huge posts in the TG forums, boasting of this life long
achievement. Turns out he was a fraud. What a surprise.

Of course Peterson is out there, pouring gasoline on the fire trying to be seen as relevent. He
is not though. Not at all.

RTM REPLY - wow...the only times I had to deal with someone claiming another screen
grab/performance as their own was way back in 2001 during the summer console challenges,
and again in 2004 at the Philly Classic. That's as low as someone hitting it in a slot machine
and then a stranger claims the jackpot is theirs as the real winner is busy flagging down an
attendant. Low, low, low.

Makes me happy, in some respects, that my DK personal best (MAME) is reaching L=7 but
not even clearing it. Lame...but at least it's the truth :)

02-05-2018, 01:21 PM
Robert.F
original DKF post

original DKF post on the mame and Billy tapes http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?

topic=2055.0

02-05-2018, 01:40 PM
BenMullen
Please stop posting irrelevant garbage to the thread

This is an example... it has NOTHING to do with the dispute in question and should be
stopped. Not everthing is an opporitunity to bad mouth people you don't like ;)

Ben

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Peterson is on record stating he doesn't know the answer. Great research there, Kotuaku.

Exhibit A - 000135
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 135/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Of course Peterson is out there, pouring gasoline on the fire trying to be seen as relevent. He
is not though. Not at all.

02-05-2018, 01:43 PM
Robert.F
Yeah data

YEH DATAGOD STOP IT :)

02-05-2018, 01:47 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Peterson is on record stating he doesn't know the answer. Great research there, Kotuaku.

Of course Peterson is out there, pouring gasoline on the fire trying to be seen as relevent. He
is not though. Not at all.

In that same article, Dave Nelson corroborates PSP's account of what happened regarding the
verification of the 1.062. I've heard that PSP isn't happy with my characterization of him in
my recent evidence post and that's fine; he's the one that has to live with his mistakes. But his
testimony in this particular instance has been backed up and is therefore important to the
overall dispute.

02-05-2018, 01:55 PM
xelnia

I think it's important to point out that the crux of the issue here is MAME vs. PCB. The direct
feed issue is important, but it doesn't affect the main body of evidence.

02-05-2018, 02:53 PM
Barra

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

In closing for now, Billy Mitchell will begin addressing this whole situation tommorrow,
Tuesday February 6th, between 7:00-8:30 PM at https://www.compoundmedia.com on the
East Side Dave Show. MUCH will be revealed in Audio and Video form in the coming
weeks, so tune in and stay tuned.
Exhibit A - 000136
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 136/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I have a massive problem with this.

None of this evidence will be available for public reviewal by being posted in this thread.
And as far as I can see you have to PAY a subscription fee to be able to listen/watch this
show. Is this really expected of people?

02-05-2018, 03:09 PM
Barra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

I have a massive problem with this.

Apparently a free 7 day trial is available, and the video will be posted on Youtube on
Thursday.

02-05-2018, 03:13 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

Apparently a free 7 day trial is available, and the video will be posted on Youtube on
Thursday.

He is only using this as a way to make him and his friends money. He could easily come here
and say his peace but he wants it to be on a money making platform. Nothing he could say
besides an apology would count for anything. The evidence is objective.

02-05-2018, 03:17 PM
maximumsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

I have a massive problem with this.

You can get a 7 day free trial of the show or it will also be available on YouTube on Thursday.

02-05-2018, 03:23 PM
TWIN GALAXIES
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 49647
In order to keep clutter to a minimum, Twin Galaxies will start removing posts we regard as
Exhibit A - 000137
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 137/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

spam or unnecessary/irrelevant comments.

While we encourage conversation, we ask that users utilize their own walls for off topic
discussions.

We appreciate your cooperation.

02-05-2018, 03:25 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

You can get a 7 day free trial of the show or it will also be available on YouTube on Thursday.

Thanks Steve. Can you reply to my question from earlier regarding the eyewitnesses that you
mentioned? Who exactly watched Billy play the game live on a cabinet? Will any of those
people be coming to this dispute thread to voice their account?

02-05-2018, 03:28 PM
The Evener

Hi Steven - It's completely understandable after the passage of almost eight years, but as we're
discussing the venue and witnesses, I wanted to add a few clarifications for the record:

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance, Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the
distributor who brought the game was there, but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the
owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a family member, was 100% there in attendance at the
time of the rollover of the game, along with others witnessing in the room."

Pete Bouvier was not in attendance for the DK record or the DK Junior record.

Billy Mitchell: "Pete was on his way there [after the DK record] …I said 'one more thing I
got to take care of,' and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior. And I thought it was neat
because I think it would have been the first time Pete would have seen a world record, am I
right?…so I played and I guess I was about three quarters of the way through before I said
'Where's Pete?' then Todd said 'oh, he's not going to be able to make it - so that's the story
about Pete."

https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY?t=3m31s

Billy Mitchell, after achieving the DK high score: "Another person we're hoping to say hi to
is Pete - Pete from Twin Galaxies, he's on his way here"

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=1m51s

The distributor who brought the game, Ezno, was also not in attendance.

Billy Mitchell: "The Donkey Kong [cabinet] donor is Enzo, he donated the machine out of his
own house…he's the manager of Brady Distributing, he's on vacation"

Exhibit A - 000138
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 138/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=2m4s

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

As for the Direct Feed/MAME board part of this....
There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the
defect on the right hand side. There is no way you can emulate a monitor defect like this in
Mame, so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet, there would be a significant, obvious
wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture, then it
wouldn't have the monitor defect. I haven't read into the whole post explaining the allegations,
but from the screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo
EZ20 Monitor.
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then, and even if they were, I am not aware
of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust an inverted video signal. For example,
if your TV screen had a bunch of wavy lines and you recorded the Super Bowl on your DVR,
then moved that DVR to a different TV, you shouldn't see any wavy lines.

The claim is that Billy Mitchell recorded a MAME session of Donkey Kong, and most likely
Donkey Kong Junior as well off-site. From a review of the Boomer videos uploaded to
YouTube by Robert Childs, the leading hypothesis is that Billy Mitchell, Todd Rogers and
others came on site to have Robert film everyone in an attempt to establish that the DK and
DK Junior scores were performed live at the arcade.

02-05-2018, 04:14 PM
RTM

I would honestly like to know why, since TG has "live" interview capacity, "live" podcast
capacity, and is where the score in question resides, is this interview taking place at any venue
other than TG ?

This is as media-driven as "The Decision" by LeBron James. Granting an interview at TG is

potentially not as high profile as granting one to the venue that he chose, otherwise why
bother to choose any other venue at all ? Makes no apparent sense.

Just saying.

02-05-2018, 04:17 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Hi Steven - It's completely understandable after the passage of almost eight years, but as we're
discussing the venue and witnesses, I wanted to add a few clarifications for the record:

Pete Bouvier was not in attendance for the DK record or the DK Junior record.

Billy Mitchell: "Pete was on his way there [after the DK record] …I said 'one more thing I
got to take care of,' and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior. And I thought it was neat
because I think it would have been the first time Pete would have seen a world record, am I
right?…so I played and I guess I was about three quarters of the way through before I said
Exhibit A - 000139
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 139/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

'Where's Pete?' then Todd said 'oh, he's not going to be able to make it - so that's the story
about Pete."

https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY?t=3m31s

Billy Mitchell, after achieving the DK high score: "Another person we're hoping to say hi to
is Pete - Pete from Twin Galaxies, he's on his way here"

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=1m51s

The distributor who brought the game, Ezno, was also not in attendance.

Billy Mitchell: "The Donkey Kong [cabinet] donor is Enzo, he donated the machine out of his
own house…he's the manager of Brady Distributing, he's on vacation"

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=2m4s

Everything here pretty much completely contradicts what @maximumsteve said on page 37
here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

but the room overview of everyone that was in attendance. Also the manager of Boomers and
a technician working there, were present.
On a personal note, I have known these guys for years, and they have families and full time
careers of their own, and don't have time to go to such lengths to fabricate game scores.
As for the Direct Feed/MAME board part of this....
There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the
defect on the right hand side. There is no way you can emulate a monitor defect like this in
Mame, so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet, there would be a significant, obvious
wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture, then it
wouldn't have the monitor defect. I haven't read into the whole post explaining the allegations,
but from the screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo
EZ20 Monitor.
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then, and even if they were, I am not aware
of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust an inverted video signal. For example,
if your TV screen had a bunch of wavy lines and you recorded the Super Bowl on your DVR,
then moved that DVR to a different TV, you shouldn't see any wavy lines.
In closing for now, Billy Mitchell will begin addressing this whole situation tommorrow,
Tuesday February 6th, between 7:00-8:30 PM at https://www.compoundmedia.com on the
East Side Dave Show. MUCH will be revealed in Audio and Video form in the coming
weeks, so tune in and stay tuned.

At this point, I can't believe or take into consideration any possible eyewitness statements.
Essentially, Billy in the videos above is either terrible at recalling his own events, or
maximumsteve is terrible at recalling events. Or doesn't know. Or he really does remember
and Billy is wrong. How can we even know. These two are supporting Billy and the fact he
performed these scores live, yet they contradict each other? Maximumsteve, Billy Mitchell,
can one of you please explain how this possible? I'm pretty sure the two quotes I copied are
referring to the same event as well. Maybe I'm wrong? Either way, eye witness testimonies
can not be accounted for with the evidence. If 100 people do actually come forward and every
single one of them tells a different other than "Billy was playing DK, I saw it" what does that
prove? Give us evidence that supports Billy. Tell us what we aren't seeing from these videos.
The more Billy's supporters talk, the more they are actually hurting him if you ask me.

If I am wrong, I'll admit to it and apologize if you can show me where I'm misunderstanding
this. Right now, I'm voting yes.

02-05-2018, 04:21 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

This is as media-driven as "The Decision" by LeBron James. Granting an interview at TG is

potentially not as high profile as granting one to the venue that he chose, otherwise why
bother to choose any other venue at all ? Makes no apparent sense.

Just saying.

I'd like to expand on this and wonder how permanent the evidence there will be. Would the
owners of the material (assuming its the interviewer and not billy who own it) give TG
Exhibit A - 000141
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 141/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

permission to upload the video here? I wouldnt be too thrilled for example if billy gives his
interview, holes are found, and then the interview is taken down. Too much evidence has
already been hidden. What exactly does billy have against permanent evidence?

02-05-2018, 04:25 PM
DadsGlasses

Only evidence that is provided here in this Dispute thread, or legally imported into this
dispute thread, should be considered. I’m pretty sure Billy Mitchell and his supporters know
how to find Twin Galaxies website.

02-05-2018, 04:26 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I'd like to expand on this and wonder how permanent the evidence there will be. Would the
owners of the material (assuming its the interviewer and not billy who own it) give TG
permission to upload the video here? I wouldnt be too thrilled for example if billy gives his
interview, holes are found, and then the interview is taken down. Too much evidence has
already been hidden. What exactly does billy have against permanent evidence?

There is no evidence that can contradict the evidence presented in this thread regarding the
MAME rendering.

02-05-2018, 04:29 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

There is no evidence that can contradict the evidence presented in this thread regarding the
MAME rendering.

I agree so far. That's why I'm asking his supporters to show us what we are missing. We have
to give them a chance otherwise every dispute will always be once sided. If they can show me
what I'm missing, I'm all for listening and changing my vote if it's really good evidence. I also
think it's crap Billy is not even talking about this, contacting either DKF or TG about this.
He's going to a 3rd party site to handle this? That makes zero sense. Hell, bring back SIOTS
for one episode and they can interview him. Pretty sure everybody would be on board for that.
Shout to those SIOTS guys.

02-05-2018, 04:35 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I agree so far. That's why I'm asking his supporters to show us what we are missing. We have
to give them a chance otherwise every dispute will always be once sided. If they can show me
what I'm missing, I'm all for listening and changing my vote if it's really good evidence. I also
think it's crap Billy is not even talking about this, contacting either DKF or TG about this.
He's going to a 3rd party site to handle this? That makes zero sense. Hell, bring back SIOTS
Exhibit A - 000142
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 142/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

for one episode and they can interview him. Pretty sure everybody would be on board for that.
Shout to those SIOTS guys.

This IS a completely one sided dispute. The direct evidence is he used MAME to record his
world records and they were not done at boomers. The "direct feed" videos are 100% from
mame. All he can do is submit other videos of the same scores or better on original donkey
kong hardware. The fact that he purposely faked scores though. I think he might wind up
being outright banned like Todd.

02-05-2018, 04:41 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I will even send back my SIOTS piece of the set that @timmell sent me. It just so happens to
be a Billy Mitchell signed poster!

02-05-2018, 04:46 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I understand that, but the TG community has been called pretty much everything by Billy's
backers. I figured I'd be a little more mature and actually give them a chance. I mean little
more mature in the smallest of all possible fractions, haha. Yes, this is one sided because
everything points against him evidence wise. We can at least be somewhat judicial about this
and let them at least attempt to defend him. It's only fair.

02-05-2018, 04:49 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I understand that, but the TG community has been called pretty much everything by Billy's
backers. I figured I'd be a little more mature and actually give them a chance. I mean little
more mature in the smallest of all possible fractions, haha. Yes, this is one sided because
Exhibit A - 000143
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 143/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

everything points against him evidence wise. We can at least be somewhat judicial about this
and let them at least attempt to defend him. It's only fair.

I completely agree with giving him a chance to defend himself. This is the venue to do it
though. This is where the dispute is being decided and he wants to go on some random
internet radio show.

02-05-2018, 05:06 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I completely agree with giving him a chance to defend himself. This is the venue to do it
though. This is where the dispute is being decided and he wants to go on some random
internet radio show.

I don't recall anyone asking the other two individuals who analyzed Dragster to participate.
Omnigamer certainly didn't have to even though it was his work that helped bring the dispute
to life. I personally don't blame Billy, he's probably making way more money there than the
nada he'd make here.

02-05-2018, 05:09 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

People were asking Todd to show up in the thread and defend himself. People here are asking
Billy to come here and defend himself.

02-05-2018, 05:33 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

This statement right here shows you why that Dragster score was infamous. They didn't have
to be asked, they wanted to prove that **** was not valid. So they did their homework and
did it the right way. That's what I'm asking of the people in Billy's corner. Nothing more.
Honestly, this whole episode thing is only going to do one thing. Cater to his already believers
and appear to be smoke and BS to the those who are viewing the evidence here. You are right
though, he will get more money.

Exhibit A - 000144
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 144/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I'm really curious how he plans to dispute the evidence of the MAME and Cabinets being
rendered differently. I'll bet he says it's because of the tapes/recording devices. Any takers?

02-05-2018, 05:39 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I'm really curious how he plans to dispute the evidence of the MAME and Cabinets being
rendered differently. I'll bet he says it's because of the tapes/recording devices. Any takers?

My guess is that he will not directly address it.

He will stick to predetermined talking points that appeal to his base of supporters. I also think
he will attack current TG administration.

02-05-2018, 05:40 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

To add to this statement, you wouldn't defend your honor if somebody offered you money
elsewhere? I guess I have to ask the question then, is the person interviewing Billy reputable?
Is he non-biased and going push for some answers? Is he in Billy's corner/the disputers
corner? This plays a pretty significant part in how the interview is conducted. If he is for
Billy, we will only here the stuff supporting him. If he is against him, we will here only what
has been shown here and pressure Billy to disprove it. If he is non-biased, he will listen to his
answer, ask the next best question tying the two sides together to put the whole picture of the
event together.

As for the reputable part, if he is just another gaming fan, he won't get on Billy's bad side and
might be "star" struck. If they have done many interview, better questions will be asked. I
could go on but you all know what I'm getting at. Who is the person doing the interview and
are the informed enough in regard to MAME and Arcade cabinets to even be able to ask the
right questions. I haven't looked and don't know the person doing the interview. I'm just
asking questions for the dispute thread since this is where it belongs.

02-05-2018, 05:41 PM
Riatoju

Quote: Exhibit A - 000145

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 145/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I'm really curious how he plans to dispute the evidence of the MAME and Cabinets being
rendered differently. I'll bet he says it's because of the tapes/recording devices. Any takers?

The facts are the facts no matter where they are posted, but with Dragster it would have been
great to talk to the other guys.

That's the only way he can save himself, if the videos shown in Sroka's video were the decoys
that could hardly be used as grounds for score removal as that wasn't his actual performance.

But...that's all a very unlikely scenario. :)

02-05-2018, 05:46 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Interesting, so you suspect all he cares about is the money and doesnt care at all about the
integrity of the database. It seems like we've all come to the same conclusion, except you
seem to view that as a good thing while we view it as something less than ideal.

02-05-2018, 05:56 PM
thegamer1185
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

The facts are the facts no matter where they are posted, but with Dragster it would have been
great to talk to the other guys.

As for Billy, here's my guess, the tapes that everyone has were decoys, fakes created so that
the real ones never got out. The demonstration in Sroka's video were using the fakes. But to
resolve this dispute he will release the real performances which Twin Galaxies was in
possession of at one time.
Exhibit A - 000146
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 146/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

That's the only way he can save himself, if the videos shown in Sroka's video were the decoys
that could hardly be used as grounds for score removal as that wasn't his actual performance.

But...that's all a very unlikely scenario. :)

Not really. If I write down all the facts in my notebook, it doesn't do much good does it. Much
like facebook or anywhere else for that matter. There are two places for this to take place,
DKF and Twin Galaxies. I'm sure those two are being cross referenced as they should be. As
for facebook, I haven't seen any counter arguments other than fans backing him up and that
they seen him do it. In addition, that means not only do "Billy's Backers" hate TG, they
apparently hate DKF as well? The site he helped build or whatever it was he has done for
them? I posted this in facebook and I'll post it here. You can call me/TG/DKF/whoever all the
things you want. You can tell me the entire event 1 second at a time, doesn't do any good
doing it anywhere other than TG or DKF. It's just smoke and BS. Now, if they really gave a
****, they would be here. Some are, don't get me wrong and I appreciate them coming here.
However, there is still no evidence of him actually performing THIS score or other for that
matter other than their word. Would those same people believe me if I said I just got a 5.51 on
Dragster? Bad joke, but it makes my point.

Attachment 49648

02-05-2018, 06:11 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

[snip]MUCH will be revealed in Audio and Video form in the coming weeks, so tune in and
stay tuned.

Could you clarify the reasons why you were told that the presentation of missing audio and
video from Billy Mitchell's DK records will occur "over the coming weeks" rather than in the
next 24 hours? I don't understand why the audio and video under Billy's control couldn't be
comprehensively released tomorrow.

02-05-2018, 06:13 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

He doesn't care about TG, the evidence against him seems to prove that. But if he has some
hard evidence that can more than prove his score is legit he can post it on CNN and this
community would be compelled to accept it. TG doesn't make something legit, hard evidence
and facts do.

02-05-2018, 06:15 PM
Snowflake

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000147
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 147/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

great. then he can move his score to the CNN leaderboard

02-05-2018, 06:24 PM
gstrain

02-05-2018, 06:32 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

. Hopefully the lion's doing the interviewing. :)

02-05-2018, 06:33 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Ummmm, I thought it WAS TG that verified his scores and ours? Now I know I'm missing
something. He also doesn't care about DKF. Sounds to me like he's a pretty self centered guy.
I'm sure many will say "I've met Billy before. He's an good guy." Where does all this hate
towards TG come from? Man, the old days must have been a bunch of assholes having a
pissing contest and nobody ever won. Did TG not do anything for Billy? I thought Walter was
always helping these guys out? So many holes I feel like I'm on the Vegas strip and
surrounded by hookers. Just filth around every hole.

02-05-2018, 06:35 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

This is an example of the fine journalism and insight offered by the East Side Dave Show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHQ56pQjDJs. So I'm sure we'll get some hard hitting
CAG investigative journalism in Billy's chosen venue for presenting his evidence.
Exhibit A - 000148
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 148/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Wow. TG is going to get roasted. This will be nothing but a mockery of gaming. You watch.
Not a serious thing will be addressed here.

02-05-2018, 06:36 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Noted we would love to be the intermediate for Billy Mitchell and this dispute. If he wishes
not to participate in this online thread. But as he is using a outlet other than TG is already a
slap in the face to TG. TG is about the score then the gamers. If TG isn't important to him,
then he shouldn't even care if TG removes his scores or not. SIOTS would love to come back
at full capacity, but isn't in the cards right now.

02-05-2018, 06:43 PM
Robert.F
like really this is the time to post this ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES

In order to keep clutter to a minimum, Twin Galaxies will start removing posts we regard as
spam or unnecessary/irrelevant comments.

While we encourage conversation, we ask that users utilize their own walls for off topic
discussions.

We appreciate your cooperation.

like really this is the time to post this ?

02-05-2018, 06:46 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

Ummmmmm. Now that I see this, I don’t think Billy is making that much money to be on
there. This guy’s videos have a few thousand views and about 40 likes. (Based on the content
Exhibit A - 000149
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 149/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I admit I’m shocked they have that many.) But as far as YouTube revenues go, this isn’t high
stakes.

Tein Galaxies is the place the record is stored. If Billy is not interested in coming to Twin
Galaxies to defend himself, that’s fine. He doesn’t have to. The evidence speaks for itself.
Fire Blaster.

02-05-2018, 06:54 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

As far as I know Billy owned TG at one time. Even so there would be no TG without Billy
and of course Walter. The fact he is being questioned is like a spit in the face. I agree no one
is off limits when it comes to disputes but ultimately when it comes to world records, I
personally am only here to eventually end up in Guinness. I'm sure Billy has plenty of those
records which are greater than TG. But.. TG did get all of Todd's Guinness certificates pulled.
However one does not need TG for validation. Carrie Swidecki goes straight to Guinness. So
there you go. Wes Copeland said his next DK world record won't be submitted here. Think
about that one.

02-05-2018, 06:55 PM
datagod

I just want to remind everyone (especially lurkers) that we the members of Twin Galaxies do
not get to decide the fate of the score, or the person with regards to removal or not.

We are here to present the evidence, to discuss it, even to debate the merit. We get to cast our
vote on whether or not this dispute is valid, based on the evidence presented. If the dispute is
voted to be valid, the Twin Galaxies Commissioner will then then conduct their own
investigation, reviewing all evidence presented, and make a decision.

People out in the world are freaking out saying there is a witch hunt going on, that Twin
Galaxies is a joke because they simply make decisions based on rumors, etc. Of course these
particular types don't bother coming here to see what is going on, they simply have their view
of the world and choose to keep it that way.

As for Scott Peterson and David Nelson, it matters not if they corroborate their stories.
Peterson is on record as approving sketchy records in exchange for monetary gain. He is
likely not the only former referee to do so.

02-05-2018, 07:07 PM
DadsGlasses

It’s so weird to me that you see this dispute as spitting in Billy’s face, rather than Billy
cheating as spitting in the entire gaming community’s collective faces. My hunchAis- that
Exhibit Twin
000150
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 150/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Galaxies will outlast the legacy of a cheater. Especially if they continue to do the right things.

Collect and examine evidence. Valid scores stay. Bogus scores go, regardless of who
submitted them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

02-05-2018, 07:09 PM
Snowflake

I feel gratitude to anyone who gave up their own time and money to help create a system
where we could compete failry

I feel zero gratitude to anyone who gave up their own time and money so they could trick
other into thinking they had a system of fair play when in reality they just controlled and
manipulated it to advance themselves.

02-05-2018, 07:24 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

It’s so weird to me that you see this dispute as spitting in Billy’s face, rather than Billy
cheating as spitting in the entire gaming community’s collective faces. My hunch is that Twin
Galaxies will outlast the legacy of a cheater. Especially if they continue to do the right things.

Collect and examine evidence. Valid scores stay. Bogus scores go, regardless of who
submitted them.

I concur. Hector is a "Billy's Buddy". So it isn't weird. Come on Hector, you can say what you
want. You backed Todd to the end no matter what you said, and your doing the same here.
Just because he owned TG at one point means that WE are spitting in his face for possibly
cheating because he owned TG and he's being called out for it? I just want to make sure I,
Rob, and others are actually reading that right. So Hector is OK with people he knows
cheating? Didn't you just say Billy doesn't care about TG, the place along with Walter that
kind of made him the "legend" he is? Isn't him saying that spitting in TG's face? Is that what
you are saying Hector? That's what I read.

I would also like to add TG can actually remove me from the thread if they want since I know
I'm not adding much to the thread. I did try to bring all the facebook people over here
multiple times and that was when the evidence being discussed. There hasn't been much
Exhibit A - 000151
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 151/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

evidence since so not much to really say except respond. I would understand. I would still like
to view it though. If Hector keeps saying things like this, I'm going to keep questioning him.
Do what you will with that.

I'm trying to be non-biased to both parties here, but this exactly how Todd's dispute ended up.
Hector seemed to be doing the same thing there as well. Sorry to call you out Hector, but man
this is not helping anything at all, for either side. Yes, I include myself in that last sentence so
you can't all me a hypocrite since I'm doing what I did in the Todd dispute as well. Question
every off the wall statement being made that made zero sense.

02-05-2018, 07:36 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

Collect and examine evidence. Valid scores stay. Bogus scores go, regardless of who
submitted them.

I'm talking about him probably viewing this dispute as that. This dispute is solid in my eyes,
it's enough for the Todd treatment.

02-05-2018, 07:38 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I just want to remind everyone (especially lurkers) that we the members of Twin Galaxies do
not get to decide the fate of the score, or the person with regards to removal or not.

Based on Patterson's comments in the past I will confirm his statements on the matter. (crazy
huh?) From my vantage point, There was no review of the tapes prior to the announcement at
the Big Bang 2010, other than Todd Rogers, to the best of my knowledge. There was a lot of
tension between David Nelson, Pete B, and Billy Mitchell. No one was in a good mood that
Exhibit A - 000152
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 152/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Saturday afternoon.

I totally believe this dispute is valid to bring up at this time. As Billy Mitchell got special
treatment for this score. He was able to get this score verified/approved within hours. When
other gamer's scores (even arcade scores) were in a long queue sitting at some a couple of
ref's homes. He cut in line. So IMO the extra attention this score is getting now is only fair. If
this score stays or not.

His evidence at the time did not meet the standards that were en-force at TG (2010) at the
time. No Audio, Direct Capture,etc Patterson's statements about Todd Rogers not being a ref
at that time are also true, to the best of my knowledge. Based on the Twin Galaxies, phone
conferences leading up to that event.

02-05-2018, 07:41 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I'm talking about him probably viewing this dispute as that. This dispute is solid in my eyes,
it's enough for the Todd treatment.

Moving forward, can you just speak for yourself in this dispute? The more you try and speak
for others, and ask questions for others, and interpret evidence for others, and interpret
emotions for others, the more it gets confusing.

02-05-2018, 07:50 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Seriously? Hell, @Jace Hall should remove the score based on it not even meeting the
requirements of the time it was accepted to begin with. That right there proves how corrupt
things really were back then. That would be like someone posting a submission with a score
Exhibit A - 000153
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 153/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

and nothing else and being accepted. No video, no photo, it's all good. This whole thing just
stinks. Put an end to this...this is me just saying things in disgust, haha.

02-05-2018, 07:55 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I would also like to add TG can actually remove me from the thread if they want since I know
I'm not adding much to the thread. I did try to bring all the facebook people over here
multiple times and that was when the evidence being discussed. There hasn't been much
evidence since so not much to really say except respond. I would understand. I would still like
to view it though. If Hector keeps saying things like this, I'm going to keep questioning him.
Do what you will with that.

Unlike Dragster, I agree with this dispute. Although I haven't seen evidence that 5.51 is
possible TG failed to do a third party analysis that concluded if the score was even possible
thus stripping Todd of his Guinness certificate that Activision, not TG helped him get. Ben
Heck said on Atariage.com something along the lines that he wasn't interested in looking into
if the score was possible. Omnigamer confirmed this. TG later said they would continue with
the analysis then dropped the whole thing after months of piling evidence on other scores.
Cheat or not TG promised Todd a fair trial, was the decision right? Yes, but what happened to
the third party analysis to confirm if 5.51 was possible or not. It didn't happen. Magically
Omnigamer was right, even though TG said the opposite for months. This is the same TG you
all put so much faith into.

However here we have multiple videos from various events with proof they were performed
on MAME. I knew this day was coming for a long time, as Wes told me things in 2015. These
things need to be done. I'm friends with alot of close friends of Billy's including Walter. But
I'm just a spectator asking questions when they come. Right now I've heard nothing from my
pals that can save Billy. The word on the streets is Billy is about to lay the smack down, but I
won't believe it until I see it. I just can't see how he can explain this.

02-05-2018, 07:58 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000154
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 154/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

I agree, I'll encourage folks to bring it here or get Billy to defend himself through other
means. I can ask most of the folks who put the evidence together directly as alot of them are
my friends too. At this point I'm just watching the show.

02-05-2018, 08:02 PM
The Evener

For background: looks like East Side Dave McDonald and Billy Mitchell go back to at least
2009, when Billy appeared a few times on the Special Delivery Show, which was broadcast
on satellite radio.

For the curious, here's an interview from January 2009 - in this interview Billy discusses
submitting high scores tapes, including his KoK 1,0417,200 "just for entertainment purposes."
(around 4:10). I wonder if this entertainment element will come up in tomorrow's interview.

I don't want to fan the flames of a KoK rehash, but Billy's entertainment-only stance doesn't
sound completely accurate, as I understand despite the score's temporary removal by RTM on
June 7th 2005, Billy ultimately submitted a master tape which was "formally and definitively
approved" the 1,0417,200 score on 6 January 2006.

http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.ca/20...d-history.html

Billy also mentions that there isn't a world record that he holds or held where he doesn't have
a personal score that's higher. (6:11)

https://youtu.be/ao90Mvwr-t0

02-05-2018, 09:17 PM
TWIN GALAXIES
5 Attachment(s)

Quick update:

We have been following this evolving dispute very closely and have started the
comprehensive process of verifying some of the technical assertions being made, as well as
searching through our very limited previous-TG-era video tape archives for further data.

We have also been receiving direct private contact from various historical TG community
members who would like to contribute information regarding this score.

Those who have contacted us privately have been directed to place any and all testimony they
care to share here in the public dispute thread, as the content contained in this formal dispute
thread will be the only official body of evidence considered. We look forward to those
contributions should those people choose to step forward.

In the meanwhile, the community can rest assured that we are methodically examining all the
compelling evidence presented in this dispute thread and as we discover new information (or
confirm things) we will make it all publicly available here.

Exhibit A - 000155
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 155/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Thank you for your patience.

Attachment 49656Attachment 49657Attachment 49658Attachment 49660Attachment 49659

02-06-2018, 05:39 AM
CWK

Mame can be played on a sanyo monitor...no problems

02-06-2018, 05:46 AM
maximumsteve
Info for Tonight(Tuesday Feb. 6th) and addition to my message yesterday...

I am about to give the info required to sign in for free to hear the show Bill will be on
tonight and also give the Youtube addy to view it there, as it will be up by Thursday...
To follow up on a personal note to what I put out there yesterday, Ultimately,to be a
devil's advocate, if you will, and completely objective about this whole thing, I did
express to Bill that in the end, what he needs to do is just go to a welcomed and
official place/arcade, whatever, and sit or stand in front of a DK machine that has been
deemed 100% verified official and get his score in question. Play all day or weekend
if he has too, as we know even the most skilled player in DK doesn't automatically
achieve a score like that on a first try live. Possible but not probable, but at the same
time, extend an open invitation to anyone who wants to show up to be there in
person/attendance to witness it at the same time. There should also be a live stream
or broadcast of it such as FB Live/Twitch, etc.. If any of you people disputed any of my
Mario Bros. or Turbo Ms. Pac Man records, that is exactly what I would do. Put your
money where your mouth is and watch me play the game in front of all the skeptic's
faces, get the score in question or better, and drop the mic. So even though Bill will
start to address the past tonight, I told him of my own accord, that he should do that
in the near future and soon. Now on to the login info for tonight.... If you go to
www.compoundmedia.com and type for the user name, [email protected], and
the password is Temppass2017, you will be logged in for free. Make sure on the
password, that first "T" is upper case. The youtube channel to view it as soon as
Wednesday or Thursday, is https://www.youtube.com/user/eastsidedavevideos
Thanks.

02-06-2018, 05:51 AM
DadsGlasses

What does thus have to do with the claim that Billy submitted Mame recordings and passed
them off as Arcade?

Can you answer the question from earlier as to who exactly witnessed Billy playing the game
in question live and achieving the stated score?

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

official place/arcade, whatever, and sit or stand in front of a DK machine that has
been deemed 100% verified official and get his score in question. Play all day or
weekend if he has too, as we know even the most skilled player in DK doesn't
automatically achieve a score like that on a first try live. Possible but not probable,
but at the same time, extend an open invitation to anyone who wants to show up to
be there in person/attendance to witness it at the same time. There should also be a
live stream or broadcast of it such as FB Live/Twitch, etc.. If any of you people
disputed any of my Mario Bros. or Turbo Ms. Pac Man records, that is exactly what I
would do. Put your money where your mouth is and watch me play the game in front
of all the skeptic's faces, get the score in question or better, and drop the mic. So
even though Bill will start to address the past tonight, I told him of my own accord,
that he should do that in the near future and soon. Now on to the login info for
tonight.... If you go to www.compoundmedia.com and type for the user name,
[email protected], and the password is Temppass2017, you will be logged in
for free. Make sure on the password, that first "T" is upper case. The youtube
channel to view it as soon as Wednesday or Thursday, is
https://www.youtube.com/user/eastsidedavevideos
Thanks.

02-06-2018, 05:53 AM
Robert.F

I used mame in my DK cab no problem!

The converter just need to be plug in to the sanyo monitor inverter board that on the flyback
cage
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Ar....c100705.m4780

02-06-2018, 06:01 AM
Robert.F
im not saying

I`m not saying i think Billy had mame in his cab at boomer`s and if all billy proving is he did
have a pcb in the cab (SO WHAT?) it has no baring on the fact that his tape he supposedly
made at boomer`s are mame

02-06-2018, 06:04 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

I am about to give the info required to sign in for free to hear the show Bill will be on
tonight and also give the Youtube addy to view it there, as it will be up by Thursday...
To follow up on a personal note to what I put out there yesterday, Ultimately,to be a
devil's advocate, if you will, and completely objective about this whole thing, I did
express to Bill that in the end, what he needs to do is just go to a welcomed and
official place/arcade, whatever, and sit or stand in front of a DK machine that has been
deemed 100% verified official and get his score in question. Play all day or weekend
if he has too, as we know even the most skilled player in DK doesn't automatically
achieve a score like that on a first try live. Possible but not probable, but at the same
time, extend an open invitation to anyone who wants to show up to be there in
person/attendance to witness it at the same time. There should also be a live stream
or broadcast of it such as FB Live/Twitch, etc.. If any of you people disputed any of my
Mario Bros. or Turbo Ms. Pac Man records, that is exactly what I Exhibit
would do.A -Put your
000157
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 157/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

money where your mouth is and watch me play the game in front of all the skeptic's
faces, get the score in question or better, and drop the mic. So even though Bill will
start to address the past tonight, I told him of my own accord, that he should do that
in the near future and soon. Now on to the login info for tonight.... If you go to
www.compoundmedia.com and type for the user name, [email protected], and
the password is Temppass2017, you will be logged in for free. Make sure on the
password, that first "T" is upper case. The youtube channel to view it as soon as
Wednesday or Thursday, is https://www.youtube.com/user/eastsidedavevideos
Thanks.

thx for the free link cause i sure aint giving those guys any money. Also, you should really
warn people that since those guys like to speak highly of hitler, make fun of people with
disabilities, laugh about beating wives, and other hideous things that this interview might not
be child safe.

02-06-2018, 06:07 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

What does thus have to do with the claim that Billy submitted Mame recordings and passed
them off as Arcade?

Can you answer the question from earlier as to who exactly witnessed Billy playing the game
in question live and achieving the stated score?

Would witnesses know the difference between MAME and an actual machine? I doubt it.

02-06-2018, 06:08 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

I did express to Bill that in the end, what he needs to do is just go to a welcomed and
official place/arcade, whatever, and sit or stand in front of a DK machine that has been
deemed 100% verified official and get his score in question. Play all day or weekend
if he has too, as we know even the most skilled player in DK doesn't automatically
achieve a score like that on a first try live.

This make's me question if you understand what the issue is here. The issue is not if Billy can
achieve a certain score. The question is if Billy submitted falsified evidence for a score
(Currently all evidence points to yes).

If I cheat on a test and get caught and the teacher flunks me, I don't get to go back and say,
well, if you let me retake the test I can get the same score. It doesn't matter why I cheated. It
doesn't matter that I may have been capable of acing the test on my own.

This show is likely a waste of time in regards to any evidence for this dispute

02-06-2018, 06:10 AM
Riatoju

Quote: Exhibit A - 000158

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 158/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Now you sound like... Well nevermind... But I am thankful for the login credentials because I
sure as hell don't want to put my credit card on the line.

02-06-2018, 06:11 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Now you sound like... Well nevermind... But I am thankful for the login credentials because I
sure as hell don't want to put my credit card on the line.

yeah, scary isnt i? but this time it actually is true.

02-06-2018, 06:16 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Would witnesses know the difference between MAME and an actual machine? I doubt it.

I don’t know or care what those witnesses would know about Mame.

The gentleman made the claim that many many people witnessed Billy achieving the score in
question. So far, no one has been able to verify that anyone actually saw Billy achieving this
score. A witness account of seeing Billy actually achieving this score live would be helpful to
the overall dispute, regardless of that persons expertise in Mame.

Lets not forget that there were people claiming to be experts in Dragster that claim they saw
Todd get a 5.54. When pressed, that evidence fell apart and it turned out they didn’t actually
see it. I wonder if that would be the case here?

02-06-2018, 06:19 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

yeah, scary isnt i? but this time it actually is true.

Don't get me wrong I agree with you for pointing it out. This doesn't help him.

02-06-2018, 06:24 AM
maximumsteve

Why do you think I just gave out the info for the show tonight glasses? Think about it.

Exhibit A - 000159
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 159/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-06-2018, 06:31 AM
maximumsteve

I know what the issues are. A lot of the same people who are accusing and making these
allegations, ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE Bill can get these scores period, including today.
That's my point Black Flag. "My War, You're one of them, you say that your'e my friend but
your one of them" Listen to that song from the band you chose to make your screen name of,
lol.

02-06-2018, 06:41 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

I know what the issues are. A lot of the same people who are accusing and making these
allegations, ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE Bill can get these scores period, including today.

Again, it doesn't matter if he can get the score and it doesn't matter if people believe he can
get the score. The only relevant thing here is that there is overwhelming evidence that Billy
submitted a falsified score, and you nor anyone else has posted a shred of evidence that says
otherwise. His ability to get the score or higher is a moot point.

02-06-2018, 06:51 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Why do you think I just gave out the info for the show tonight glasses? Think about it.

Please convey the following statement to Billy from Twin Galaxies about how the dispute
review process functions:

02-06-2018, 06:58 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Why do you think I just gave out the info for the show tonight glasses? Think about it.

Because your the new Brian Kuh?

In any case, as already stated, unless the interview is going to get heavy, deep, and real into
the code of DK MAME and the DK PCB I'm not sure it will have much bearing on anything.

02-06-2018, 06:59 AM
Blackflag82
Exhibit A - 000160
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 160/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

*you're

inability to edit is a killer

02-06-2018, 07:10 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

Because your the new Brian Kuh?

In any case, as already stated, unless the interview is going to get heavy, deep, and real into
the code of DK MAME and the DK PCB I'm not sure it will have much bearing on anything.

On second though, this is probably a low blow to Brian and may be exhibiting some toxicity,
so please feel free to remove it Heavy Hand...my apologies.

02-06-2018, 07:26 AM
maximumsteve

Brian Kuh? Spare me with your geeky grammar shots. You just want to keep asking questions
instead of just listening to a show that will provide a platform for the person being accused to
address on his own behalf. I just got through posting my opinion to him on what he should do
AFTER he addresses the past, meaning all of the technical questions, complaints, and
skepticism of the previous scores in question. I speak for myself and my game records speak
for themselves.

02-06-2018, 07:29 AM
DadsGlasses

Maybe you dont understand?

This is the Dispute thread. This is the body of evidence that will determine if TG removes the
score. You made a claim, here in this thread, that multiple people witnessed the score. I asked
for clarification so that it could be documented here, where it matters. Others have disputed
the claim you made about certain individuals as witnesses. Billy’s own words on video
dispute some of your claims.

So again, who witnessed Billy playing live and achieving the score that is in dispute?

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Why do you think I just gave out the info for the show tonight glasses? Think about it.

02-06-2018, 07:31 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Exhibit A - 000161
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 161/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I think maybe you need to re-read the dispute? Whether or not Billy can achieve this score
today is of zero significance.

02-06-2018, 07:32 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

You just want to keep asking questions instead of just listening to a show that will provide a
platform for the person being accused to address on his own behalf.

Actually I just want him to come to either of the forums (here or DKF) which already provide
him a platform to answer his accusers and the questions. You are right, I don't want to spend
time listening to a show which is not going to deal with the questions at hand.

02-06-2018, 07:37 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Why do you think I just gave out the info for the show tonight glasses? Think about it.

I’m asking you to clarify a statement that you made here in this dispute thread. I am asking
that you clarify it here. I’m not sure what this has to do with Billy going on an internet show?
I assume you speak for yourself? You made a claim. I’m asking you to clarify. If anything,
that should help Billy? I’m not sure why this would cause you to get defensive?

Who watched Billy playing live and achieving the score in question?

02-06-2018, 07:46 AM
IAmNerdJock

I think Wes' evidence should be taken pretty seriously. Correlation does not equal causation,
but Billy's scoring is certainly an outlier

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVDyEHrX4AEnxP0.jpg

02-06-2018, 07:48 AM
IAmNerdJock

What Wes put together is something Billy must address in the interview

02-06-2018, 07:52 AM
RTM

Is the format of this interview closed, or will call-ins be allowed either via phone or online
messaging ?
Exhibit A - 000162
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 162/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I'm guessing the former thus wonder if just "softball" questions will be asked.

02-06-2018, 10:03 AM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Now on to the login info for tonight....

Steve,

Thanks for this login info and for taking your time to post here and try and facilitate
communication and the sharing of information. I may not agree with you on everything with
regards to this dispute, but I sincerely thank you for your efforts.

People, can we please lay off any personal attacks and insults to Steve? It's completely
inappropriate, does nothing to facilitate this dispute, and just gives ammunition to those
labeling TG disputes as lynch mobs. While it would be great if Billy and any witnesses of his
scores would come here and post on this thread themselves, it seems unlikely that is going to
happen. However, none of that is Steve's fault so please don't take anything out on him. It's
certainly fair for people to ask him questions about his posts, but repeating them over and
over doesn't accomplish anything. We should be patient, wait a reasonable amount of time for
answers, and focus on the evidence.

-George

02-06-2018, 10:17 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

Steve,

-George

Thanks for answering for Steve, who could have simply answered the questions. Or could
answered by saying I can't answer that yet, I will get back to you. I see what you mean
though. Damn it, now I'm doing it to you. I must be a lynch mobber. Thanks for not calling us
Exhibit A - 000163
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 163/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

names though. Will this start to ever sink in that people answering for other people and
sticking up for other people doesn't solve anything? Oh wait, you said that. I should be patient
by asking the same questions over and over by getting ignored while person posts another
comment not answering the question. See, now I'm answering for Rob who is the one asking
the same question over and over but gets no answer. Hope this solved the issues by me
speaking for him not really knowing what Rob would really say.

Seriously? It's the god damned Dragster dispute 2.0.

02-06-2018, 10:32 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

Steve,

-George

I assume I was the one that “asked him the same question over and over.” I apologize to
anyone that saw that as an “insult or personal attack”. To be honest, I don’t even understand
how that could be seen as a personal attack of any kind, but ok.

To clarify: this thread is considered the definitive body of evidence for Twin Galaxies and his
dispute. So if a person makes a statement that impacts that body of evidence, clarification
should generally be seen as a good thing. Steve’s statement regarding witnesses was a bit
ambiguous. That’s not an attack or a judgement against Steve. Clarification regarding this
statement can be very helpful to the dispute and the to statement that Steve was trying to
make. He has continued to post here, but not answer the question. It’s hard to tell if that is
because he missed the question and it got buried? Or if he just doesn’t want to answer the
question. I don’t know unless he answers.

No slander, insult, disrespect, or anything else negative towards Steve was intended by me.

Steve, I apologize if my question came across as insulting. I can always be reached via PM if
you have concerns about my treatment of you or anyone else on the forum.

02-06-2018, 11:07 AM
xelnia

Exhibit A - 000164
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 164/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

@timmell Can you describe the circumstances around the following piece of footage, posted
on the SIOTS YouTube channel? Specifically, do you recall the original source of the video, if
that clip was part of a larger piece of footage, and if it was something "officially" published
by TG at the time? Thanks.

https://youtu.be/hbRN549NYuU

02-06-2018, 11:20 AM
Robert.F

""Final minutes of Billy's former record.

This is a direct recording that was done of the game Billy played LIVE in Florida after the
filming of the King of Kong ended to regain the record.
In attendance live was a referee, 300+ witnesses, and notary publics who had the machine's ""

Again with the witnesses 300 plus this time and in attendance live was a referee and and and
no less then Two

Notary public`s Wow cant dispute that kind

of dedication to to Make People Believe in
You
02-06-2018, 11:40 AM
Robert.F
We can all learn something

Billy Mitchell at Big Bang 2010

This video is a precursor to tonight interview, rebuttal whatever you want to call it. watch him
in action and how he go`s about things when talking about himself and other`s ,, enjoy :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMNriufgg0g

02-06-2018, 11:43 AM
timhett

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

""Final minutes of Billy's former record.
This is a direct recording that was done of the game Billy played LIVE in Florida after the
filming of the King of Kong ended to regain the record.
In attendance live was a referee, 300+ witnesses, and notary publics who had the machine's ""

Again with the witnesses 300 plus this time and in attendance live was a referee and and and
no less then Two

Exhibit A - 000165
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 165/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Notary public`s Wow cant dispute that kind

of dedication to to Make People Believe in
You
This is very fortunate. So this means that there is a notarized document that exists with
someones name on it that swears that they saw the whole thing.... ?

02-06-2018, 11:46 AM
Robert.F
yes vary suggestive Tim :)

"This is very fortunate. So this means that there is a notarized document that exists with
someones name on it that swears that they saw the whole thing.... ?"
that sounds about right :)

02-06-2018, 11:50 AM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

https://youtu.be/hbRN549NYuU

This video ends at 1,050,200 not the 1,062,800 score in question. So whats the purpose of that
video?

02-06-2018, 11:56 AM
Robert.F
Steve Wiebe at Big Bang 2010

Steve Wiebe not happy there no

Donkey Kong cab at the big
bang ,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KGGBVBoPWA

02-06-2018, 12:01 PM
Robert.F

i hope the thing tonight with billy dose not go like

Exhibit A - 000166
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 166/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Steve Sanders remarks :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YL2txwQdPg

02-06-2018, 12:34 PM
IAmNerdJock

Looks like this is turning into some publicity/ marketing stunt as Richie Knuckelz just
announced King of Kong 2

28 min mark

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...8&id=620523377

02-06-2018, 12:43 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

This video ends at 1,050,200 not the 1,062,800 score in question. So whats the purpose of that
video?

Please refer to
this post to see the relevance of ALL of Billy's supposed 1M+ scores to this dispute.

02-06-2018, 12:43 PM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Looks like this is turning into some publicity/ marketing stunt as Richie Knuckelz just
announced King of Kong 2

28 min mark

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...8&id=620523377

Going on the record to say I want no part in or involvement with any King of Kong 2 project.

02-06-2018, 12:57 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Looks like this is turning into some publicity/ marketing stunt as Richie Knuckelz just
announced King of Kong 2

28 min mark

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...8&id=620523377
Exhibit A - 000167
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 167/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This Dispute is about Billy Mitchell’s Score. Sounds like the plan tonight is to name other
cheaters as a means of distraction?

02-06-2018, 01:00 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

This Dispute is about Billy Mitchell’s Score. Sounds like the plan tonight is to name other
cheaters as a means of distraction?

let the man speak. I'm perfectly happy to hear about other cheaters.

02-06-2018, 01:02 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

let the man speak. I'm perfectly happy to hear about other cheaters.

Im all for hearing about cheaters. I just hope it’s not the, “Everyone was doing it so it’s ok”
routine.

02-06-2018, 01:10 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Please refer to
this post to see the relevance of ALL of Billy's supposed 1M+ scores to this dispute.

What software did you use to break down the videos, and how much did you slow down the
videos to be able to see the piece by piece loading? I took that 1.05m video that Timmell
linked to, stuck into Premiere, and slowed it down to 0.58% speed (the slowest Premiere can
go). I am not seeing the piece by piece loading that MAME does.

https://youtu.be/MpbfO8glw6s

02-06-2018, 01:14 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

https://youtu.be/MpbfO8glw6s
Exhibit A - 000168
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 168/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Did you check all the load screens?

02-06-2018, 01:16 PM
IAmNerdJock

I looked at several from that video and didn't see it. I haven't looked at all of them yet.
Haven't had time

02-06-2018, 01:17 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

https://youtu.be/MpbfO8glw6s

I literally just slowed down the youtube video to .25 and saw that it was mame rendering it.
check at the 32 minute mark during the game screen loading.

02-06-2018, 01:19 PM
IAmNerdJock

32 min mark? Could you link that video?

I was referring to the video Timmell linked too here https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=hbRN...ature=youtu.be

02-06-2018, 01:20 PM
RomulusVonFlex
1 Attachment(s)

Right here. See what I mean? That is mame.Attachment 49685

02-06-2018, 01:36 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Right here. See what I mean? That is mame.Attachment 49685

I agree that that is absolutely MAME and can easily see that. Its the 9 min video that shows
"Final minutes of Billy's former record" where I don't see it. Its almost like there's two
different videos. At the 990,700 mark in the Settle on the Screen video, it doesn't show piece
by piece. In the direct feed at the same mark, it does show piece by piece MAME style
loading

02-06-2018, 01:38 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Exhibit A - 000169
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 169/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Different rendering could cause the frams to drop. It is extremely quick.

02-06-2018, 01:40 PM
IAmNerdJock

I just wanted to be sure, which is why I tested it myself. The Direct Feed showing the 1.05m
attempt in entirety is absolutely MAME.

02-06-2018, 01:41 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

I just wanted to be sure, which is why I tested it myself. The Direct Feed showing the 1.05m
attempt in entirety is absolutely MAME.

After checking that time on both videos, the transition happens to fast at that point and can't
be slowed down enough.

02-06-2018, 01:44 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

After checking that time on both videos, the transition happens to fast at that point and can't
be slowed down enough.

Pulling it into Premiere you can. With the Direct Feed, its very easy to spot. The SOTS video
must have really dialed down the frame rate, because I slowed it down to the maximum and
couldn't see it.

02-06-2018, 01:45 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Pulling it into Premiere you can. With the Direct Feed, its very easy to spot. The SOTS video
must have really dialed down the frame rate, because I slowed it down to the maximum and
couldn't see it.

That was uploaded like 8 years ago as well. Youtube kind of sucked back then with
compression even more than they do now.
Exhibit A - 000170
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 170/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-06-2018, 01:48 PM
BenMullen

Just watched that as well. I guess its all fine they are not presenting anything here in that case
as it wont be relevant. Mostly looks like this whole days comm traffic will have been one big
distraction. Let us not get distracted. On with the dispute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

This Dispute is about Billy Mitchell’s Score. Sounds like the plan tonight is to name other
cheaters as a means of distraction?

02-06-2018, 01:50 PM
erockbrox

Here are my thoughts on the matter. I hope that I do not offend anyone as I'm just trying to
partake in this dispute thread.

1) Billy Mitchell was a big arcade player in the early days of video games arcades.

2) Billy set some records which held the test of time for many years.

3) One day Steve Wiebe comes out of nowhere and challenges Billy's record.

4) Steve is at the top of his game in Donkey Kong.

5) Billy probably hadn't played Donkey Kong in a while.

6) Billy sees Steve as a threat.

7) Steve is forced to preform live Donkey Kong scores to prove himself.

8) Billy is out of practice on Donkey Kong so he won't do any live performances.

8) Billy then sets up a plan to prevent Steve from beating his score.

9) This plan involved a VHS tape submission.

10) The score Billy submitted on the VHS tape has questionable integrity.

11) Billy probably originally submitted the tape as a "stunt" just to mess with Steve Wiebe.

12) But the stunt and score was taken very seriously by everyone and the record on the tape
was accepted.

13) The score on Billy's tape probably represents a score that is above Billy's own natural
abilities.

14) Steve works harder at Donkey Kong and gets better.

Exhibit A - 000171
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 171/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

15) Billy works harder at making better stunt tapes.

16) Billy then needs to submit his stunt tapes to a referee to get them verified.

17) Billy cannot get these tapes verified by any normal means as they are questionable.

18) Billy then gets a special referee, Todd Rogers to verify the special tapes.

19) The scores on Billy's tapes get entered into the Twin Galaxies database.

20) The scores on the tapes are questionable since Billy never got close to these scores at the
Kong Offs.

21) The Kong Offs are a live venue where the best Donkey Kong players preform live in front
of an audience.

22) Now we are talking about these tapes and their integrity in this very thread.

https://i.imgur.com/P8Wtq7K.png

02-06-2018, 01:52 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

Going on the record to say I want no part in or involvement with any King of Kong 2 project.

If that's the case, I will burn every DK cabinet/ PCB before any filming. Even computers with
MAME and the rom on it. Hide your machines everyone.

02-06-2018, 01:54 PM
Dwayne Richard
Is This the only score of Billy Mitchell that needs to be checked into?

While were are checking into the facts about Billy Mitchell's video game history. How about
we get a referee to validate his Pacman score?!

What people are unaware of is a number of scores ended up in the database without having
been validated by other then bill himself! Take for example Chris Arya's perfect pacman it
was not validated by a referee. Their tape shows bill just calling up walter in the middle of the
night and telling him to put the score in the database.

How about what we seen from the King of Kong? Bill is on the phone with Walter and say do
you want me to put the score in the database and what does Walter do puts score in database.

What people have to understand is that Walter has owned tg and so has Bill. They were both
owners of Tg when the pac man score was achieved. Think about what happened. There is
what you were told which were lies that obscured the truth of the matter. How was the press
release able to be sent out so quick? This is a scandal between owners of Twingalaxies at the
time. They did because they could. All the people that were around then realized Bill's score
was never validated much like his current scenario!

Exhibit A - 000172
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 172/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The donkey kong and pacman story are very similar. Bill is under pressure to make sure he is
recognized as the best. Both Rick Fothergill and Steve Weibe put pressure on Bill that he was
not expecting and was unprepared for. He never really was playing pacman at all until Rick
Fothergill told him he was gonna go for it a a fun thing to do at funspot.

Bill was out-classed with continuous forward moving grouping patterns that allowed Rick to
finish the blue time boards in under 45 minutes. Bill with his old techniques was 2 hours give
or take an half an hour. He was supposed to wait to play Rick head to head but he knew he
could not beat him. So Bill and Walter broke the agreement that was announced to play later
in Vegas that year.

Bill and Walter were the only ones who knew what the plan was. Bill went to go play at the
Funspot and he was to stay there and play till he got the score. The Problem is there was no
referee there! How did a press release go out the next day proclaiming BIll a hero? Did Bill
overnight the tapes to Walter or any referee? No. Did anyone view are confirm the legitimacy
of the performance?

This is where most don't realize Bill did get a score of 3,333,360 but he broke the rules of
submission. If the game were to be validated and checked into it would not stand up to the
standard even from the 80's rules for tg and guinness we all knew.

What do i mean. There the time took to play was too long for a non marathon game. He took
way too many breaks. They could never come up with a straight answer as to how long the
game took. Why because they knew someone could call them on it. It was first announced as
6 and a half hours which is way to long and even 6 is too long. The times are so many times
they claim Bill did the score in. If the score was properly validated do you not think they
would be able to say a correct time and settle on it? They put a bogus time in the Guinness
record book that went to print in 2007

The guinness rules and tg rules which we all knew is that the most you can do for break is 5
minutes an hour. He admits on his tape that it took him two hours to do his blue time and he
took a 30 minute break right after. Right there his game should not be accepted.

But because i have part of the tape and he admits on it he has to change tapes. I believe we
shall find out Bill's actual performance was not captured on one continuous recording.
Another reason for disqualification or rejection of the submission.

Bill and Walter play fast and lose with themselves being exceptions to the rules. They have an
agenda to make tg famous and make some money off it. So i believe we shall find another
smoking gun if anyone cares to call him out. The tape i have came from Robert when he was
cleaning out tg stuff when we all got fired and replaced as referee's.

Donkey Kong

What people don't realize is that the announcement he made to shock the world beyond his
pacman score during his MTV interview was a 1 million point Donkey Kong score!

He thought this would give him more popularity and make him more famous. What
happened? Steve Weibe came out of nowhere to challenge his ego. The king of kong movie
put pressure on Bill and his attempt to be the first one to a million and get the attention. He
was not practiced just like when Rick challenged him on pacman so he had to make a plan to
gain an advantage. "Oh Billy Mitchell always has a plan!" He friend Robert Childs is very
Exhibit A - 000173
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 173/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

gifted in this technology. He was the one to help with the direct feed cheating method. Bill is
a control freak when he is on a mission to fulfill a plan. The king of kong documentary put
even more pressure on Bill to be able to perform. He wasn't able so they had to do something
to put up a score.

What people don't realize unlike now we no how to score a million points. 1.1 million and
over 1.2 now. There are certain things you cannot do to get a score that high and things you
have to do to get a score that high. Bill had to figure that out pretty quick. He used everything
he knew in how to get a score that high. The problem is no one in reality would or could play
that risky and be able to stay alive long enough on 50 plus barrel boards to get the extra point
you needed.

What do I mean? Bill would group barrels on the third level and force them down the left side
so he could go back to the second level and beat them for points with the hammer. He would
get as many as 16 barrels averaging around 10 to 12. This is the only way he knew how to get
the extra points he needed to get to a million. The problem is he could only do that in mame
and not live on a real game.

Not one of the 1.1 million players would do this or even the 1 million point players. But Bill
was closer then he realized to fooling us all. If he would have been able to use the barrel
grouping at the top to get his extra points by forcing multiple 300 point jumps in a row. Like
Ross Benziger figured out from watching Bill's tape. He would have been able to save state a
method that would have been believable.

Hank Chein was the new guy on the scene and took awhile to figure out what was going on
really. The backdrop of the king of kong documentary distracted everyone including me.
When I got fired i was on a mission to find the truth and i thought the truth would expose
weibe as a cheater and Bill as the victim. That is not what i found out. Again Steve did break
the rules in his submissions! but he could play.
The problem I had was I originally thought Bill's gameplay was the touchstone to compare to,
but I was wrong.

When I got fired I went through all kinds of scenario's how someone could cheat. I checked
into possibility of changing the code i talked with Jeff who did the never versions of donkey
kong but what i realized is using mame save state would be perfect. I asked Rick Fothergill a
couple times if we could record a fake mame save state recording to submit to see if the new
referee's could catch it. He declined and so i never followed up on that, but at the same time
Hank told me his concerns about Bill's gaming techniques.

He showed me a number of things that had him convinced there was something wrong with
Bill's submissions and his playing style. It got to the point where he prepared a power point
presentation to Dave Nelson to show all the problems and inconsistencies of the donkey kong
universe. But as luck would have it, Hank broke the world record at funspot that weekend and
Dave never did anything about his concerns. That was when Hank got the 1091 and has never
had Bill or Steve even come close to beating it.

After looking more at Bill's game I realized he did use the mame technique which would have
been perfect to cheat. Not that anyone cared. Bill and Walter did alot to demonize me.

Bill told me long time ago that he never lies! What he means by that is that if he is forced to
potentially lie by saying it he just won't say anything. Bill has not talked to me in a decade
because he has to lie if he wants to keep the same story going.

Bill is my friend but were not close any longer. I have been upset for a long time about this
Exhibit A - 000174
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 174/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

bull**** he has pulled at the expense of the community. This needs to be dealt with and we
all need to move on to real achievements.

So i would like to see tg get Bill to shows us the Complete GAME of PACMAN to get an
official time and to see whether he followed the submission rules we all knew. He has been
****ting on Bill Bastable for not following the rules of submission on his game. How about
we check his? BECAUSE NO ONE VALIDATED IT! It was just put in the database and
press release sent out.

That is why in my doc i said Rick Fothergill was the first beginning of proper submissions
and should get credit for doing it first

02-06-2018, 02:00 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

https://youtu.be/hbRN549NYuU

This video was uploaded prior before I got control of the Twin Galaxies YouTube page. I
don't know who uploaded it from the TG staff. Sorry couldn't be more help.

02-06-2018, 02:12 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwayne richard

While were are checking into the facts about Billy Mitchell's video game history. How about
we get a referee to validate his Pacman score?!

Start a dispute! If you have the evidence.

And Everyone, Let's try to keep to keep this subject about the score of the 1.062. I know some
times other evidence to be referred to like the other scores that Donkey Kong Forums
removed. Also the score is Disputed. Not necessarily the gamer. But I understand connection
and assumptions are made and sometime hard to avoid.

02-06-2018, 02:13 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Start a dispute! If you have the evidence.

And Everyone, Let's try to keep to keep this subject about the score of the 1.062. I know some
times other evidence to be referred to like the other scores that Donkey Kong Forums
Exhibit A - 000175
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 175/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

removed. Also the score is Disputed. Not necessarily the gamer. But I understand connection
and assumptions are made and sometime hard to avoid.

Wouldn't something like faking scores to cheat the world record get you banned from
submitting scores and all of them deleted?

02-06-2018, 02:13 PM
Omnigamer

For everybody trying to watch through and see the transition stuff, there's no need to try and
watch them in slow-mo: you can move through YouTube videos frame-by-frame. Simply
pause the video, press [.] key for frame advance, and [,] key to rewind. Many other online
video players have similar functions, although often with different keys.

02-06-2018, 02:15 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

https://youtu.be/MpbfO8glw6s

The best section of that video is frame-by-frame around the 3:58.367 mark. An easy piece of
software to use for frame-by-frame analysis is VirtualDub. You can also frame advance a
YouTube video using the "," and "." keys, or even the "E" key in VLC. At that point you see
the older MAME-style drawing of the screen, mixed (because of YouTube's encoding) with a
future video frame (NOT an artifact resulting from MAME or PCB video generation). The
main reason I asked @timmell about that video is because there has been, and will likely
continue to be, insinuations that the footage used is somehow not original or manipulated.
That YouTube videos matches the other full footage available.

02-06-2018, 02:24 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Yep, that video is uploaded by twin galaxies and at 3:58 shows the mame rendering qualities.

02-06-2018, 03:13 PM
CWK
Exhibit A - 000176
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 176/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The 7:00PM show is not working for me. Why am I not surprised

02-06-2018, 03:16 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWK

The 7:00PM show is not working for me. Why am I not surprised

It's working for me. No Billy yet though. Really looking forward to what he has to say.

02-06-2018, 03:23 PM
Snowflake

Its working for me, and these guys are literally boring and classless -- which is tough to do is
classless is normally not boring. They are actually more offensive then the banned one we
dare not name and somehow boring to boot. Truly offensive. They're just throwing out swears
and offensive statements with no creativy, no punchline, just stupid middle school stuff trying
to piss off mommy and daddy. We get it mommy and daddy dont love them and they want to
be to get attention. Just awful. Even worse than i suspcte. Well, gave billy a chance and he
proved just how classless he can be chosing this venue.

02-06-2018, 03:25 PM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWK

The 7:00PM show is not working for me.

I REALLY wish it wasn't working for me, I feel like I'm just torturing myself at this point.
Nothing can prepare you for how bad this is.

02-06-2018, 03:28 PM
datagod

This show is shockingly bad. The topics they are discussing in the first half of the show are
depraved and disgusting.

I don't know who decided to put Billy on this show, but I would be deeply ashamed if I were
them. They make Howard Stern look like Johnny Carson.

02-06-2018, 03:29 PM
CWK

Still not working oh well...28 minutes wasted...could've been worse could've been the whole 1
1/2 hrs

02-06-2018, 03:29 PM
RTM

Dwayne, great post, thanks for chiming in !!

One minor point...I resigned, I was never fired.

Exhibit A - 000177
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 177/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Thanks for confirming where one of Bill's performances ended up...I was not 100% sure
about all of them.

02-06-2018, 03:30 PM
Ninglendo

I can barely stomach this. SIOTS would of been the proper platform for Billy to state his case.
I feel like we will learn nothing from this.

02-06-2018, 03:31 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

I can barely stomach this. SIOTS would of been the proper platform for Billy to state his case.
I feel like we will learn nothing from this.

oh we learned something. we already knew billy was a cheater, now we see what sort of
person he is too.

02-06-2018, 03:31 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

I can barely stomach this. SIOTS would of been the proper platform for Billy to state his case.
I feel like we will learn nothing from this.

My guess is that he dismisses this as a witch hunt and says it won't matter when he breaks the
world record on King of Kong 2

02-06-2018, 03:41 PM
Robert.F

wow what a chit show , man

02-06-2018, 03:41 PM
RomulusVonFlex

I am 90% sure these guys are making fun of billy and he doesn't realize it.

02-06-2018, 03:45 PM
Robert.F

i dont Bill can even hear the music

02-06-2018, 03:46 PM
Robert.F

Richie pls pls dont do it run run run

02-06-2018, 03:47 PM
Robert.F Exhibit A - 000178
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 178/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

WE ARE THE L>L>C>

02-06-2018, 03:47 PM
gavv

He and they are calling us the 'LLC' (Lonely Losers Club)... that's all you need to know to
show how this is going.

02-06-2018, 03:53 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Is he not going to address the faked scores on this interview?

02-06-2018, 03:59 PM
Snowflake

name caling with no substance im fine with name calling if its based on something.

sorry "pattycatty" as you call them I now respect more than you. its hard to say, but its true.
you've sunken that low billy.

does anymore even need to be seen? ban this guy already

02-06-2018, 04:00 PM
Ninglendo

I can't take this interview serious when the host calls @xelnia a snake and other names. The
host is obviously not a neutral party and name calling is downright disrespectful.

02-06-2018, 04:01 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

name caling with no substance im fine with name calling if its based on something.

sorry "pattycatty" as you call them I now respect more than you. its hard to say, but its true.
you've sunken that low billy.

does anymore even need to be seen? ban this guy already

He is just jumping around like crazy. He is refusing to answer the MAME question.

02-06-2018, 04:02 PM
Robert.F

ARGGGGGGGGGGG RGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

02-06-2018, 04:03 PM
gavv

He's bragging because of this he's getting more interview bookigns and movie deals

02-06-2018, 04:04 PM Exhibit A - 000179

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 179/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

So this is what you call "addressing this whole situation"?

02-06-2018, 04:06 PM
Robert.F
stick the fork in him

Maybe there building him up till he full blown , and THEN stick the fork in him with the
mame question :)

02-06-2018, 04:08 PM
RomulusVonFlex

There is video evidence of billy himself saying Pete wasn't there.

02-06-2018, 04:09 PM
Snowflake

i've lost track of all the lies i already caught him in, is anyone else able to keep up?

02-06-2018, 04:10 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

i've lost track of all the lies i already caught him in, is anyone else able to keep up?

Is someone recording?

02-06-2018, 04:11 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

i've lost track of all the lies i already caught him in, is anyone else able to keep up?

I keep trying to cross reference stuff but I can't do it fast enough. Dude is lying at 60 mph.

02-06-2018, 04:15 PM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)

ZOOM IN ON THIS WHAT THE SCORE

02-06-2018, 04:17 PM Exhibit A - 000180

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 180/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Robert.F

"That guy a little dark skin" way to go billy

02-06-2018, 04:21 PM
Snowflake

Key slip up, Richie Knuckles came right out and said he'd help billy cover up a murder
(assuming/hoping thats metaphorical). So with Richie admitting on air he'd lie for billy can
we really trust anything Richie says?

02-06-2018, 04:29 PM
RomulusVonFlex

The video of Billy and his lawyer friend showing off the two donkey kong world records
shows it is MAME. It has nothing to do with faked doctored footage from angry trolls. That
evidence is directly from billy!!!!!

02-06-2018, 04:30 PM
thegamer1185

Well, I'm not going to speculate anything. Sounds to me like Billy is relying on TG to still be
in possession of the tapes to help prove his score. Guess that's what we are waiting on.

02-06-2018, 04:31 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Well, I'm not going to speculate anything. Sounds to me like Billy is relying on TG to still be
in possession of the tapes to help prove his score. Guess that's what we are waiting on.

The tapes billy had in his possession and was showing off as his world record were MAME
rendered Donkey Kong games. They were not faked by anyone and he is just stalling and
talking nonsense so he can save face.

02-06-2018, 04:31 PM
datagod

I transcribed most of the interview with Billy Mitchell. Apologies for errors.

======================================

Twin Galaxies is headquartered in Ottumwa Iowa.

- Billy Mitchell is now skyping in

- Billy Mitchell is an honest man with great hair
- he is handsome
- he is like Russel Crowe, not fat Russel Crowe, Gladiator
- get gets the job done!
- he would never cheat
Host: I am so happy you are here Billy. Your story is trending more than Superbowl.

Exhibit A - 000181
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 181/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy: I am used to that kind of trending.

Host: You are a star! You need to get this story out. Nice tie.

Billy: (holds up his tie)

First things first. Are you ready? I have lots of text messages regarding this show.

Host: I said there would be no cursing. Billy has a hot sauce to worry about. No cursing Bill.

Billy: I'll do my best. Obviously this is an illustrious journey. The history began back in 1982,
ant the very first
gathering of of e-sports gaming. I dont' know what it was that grabbed me and brought me
there, but thank God I
went there. Througought the 80's, I had an awesome time. I went there, 16 players. It was
intimidating. I played
Donkey Kong.

Host: what did you do?

Billy: I dropped a quarter and pushed a button. I had a nemesis there. He got 190,000. I got
830,000 on my first man.
In 1986, the golden age of video games ended, and I had to go get a real job. I had my fun in
the 80's and I sat on it. Then came 1999.
20 years into the gaming industry, games became like cars.

I got a call from somebody who said he could beat me at Pac Man. He was my nemesis. He is
my friend now.
Host: (comments on his hair)

Billy: I went to funspot, in front of the media, and I did a perfect score. It was an explosion of
media that sent me to Japan! There were a few other people that went with me. When I came
back, that is when the camera crews came. That is when the documentary crews came out.
Something else was born in that era: LLC. The lonely losers club.

I'll tell you more about them later. I came back with a different attitude. It wasn't important for
me to come back and beat people in
an arcade. I wanted to be an advocate for competitive gaming. I wanted to be an ambassador.
I wanted to push competitive gaming.

Host: This is where the lonely loser club comes in.

Billy: The fact of the matter is that it is more satisfactory to participate in moves or
tournaments, bringing honor and recognition to the people working hard, and giving these
people credit. When you go to the conventions yes there is fun, yes there is hugs and
conversations but what I really do is push the competitive culture. We go to places to present
certificates to people with amazing feats. We give them recognition. Nolan Bushnell was put
on a trading card. #2. Ilike to remind him that he is #2.

Host: Billy was number 1!

Billy: There were so many people, thousands of people that contribute so much, they deserve
Exhibit A - 000182
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 182/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the recognition. Pac Man Rick is a great guy, he deserves that recognition. Most recently we
went to a convention where Ernest Kleine was there.

Host: Speilburg movie!

Billy: So we went to award him with a certificate. Ernest gave me his book and told me that
he was inspired by me to write his book. That really hit me in the feels. John Glenn was the
first man in space. He said that every time he saw somebody follow in his footsteps, he gains
satisfaction that people were doing what he enoyed.

Host: No Bill Mitchell, no moon walks! NASA fuggettit

Billy: There became a greater inspiration than competitive gaming. The one exception that
kept getting put in my face was Donkey Kong. Richie Knucklez is the Authority in the
Donkey Kong world.

Host: Billy and Richie came to my studio and brought in their own Donkey Kong. I
personally saw their brilliance. I don't like Billy, who is simply trying to make the world a
better place -- he is getting taken down by these internet weasels. You don't have to say it,
because you are gracious.

Billy: They are the LLC.

Billy: We were in your studio, when Richie twisted my arm, threatened me, etc. to get me to
join with him and do the Kong Off.

Host: I went there. All the guys were there. Billy put up a huge score.

Billy: Hank Chien put up the high score. No killscreen, but Hank won.

Billy: Here is a story about Steve Weibe. I got approached by Disney. We want you to be in
Fix It Felix. I wanted to keep the machine, and I said that Steve should get to keep his
machine too. The lady from Disney agreed. Billy and Steve would play each other by
Satellite.

Host: Peter Dinklage was based off Billy Mitchell. Is there a documentary? Sequal? King of
Kong, Chasing Ghosts?

Billy: Last night I received an email with a movie offer. Today, I received an even bigger
offer from a name you would recognize. My friends and I are pondering this one. It is a
director you recognize.

Billy: However, as soon as we became in touch with the Kong Off, unfortunately, Richie kills
himself for these Kong Off's. My job there is to be the MC, to bring recognition and bring
deserved recognition to the players there. However, because I am there and I am me, I am
responsible to play. I pretty much play it once a year. There are other players, Vince Lemay.
There is a lot of camaraderie.

Billy: The friendships we create is far more valuable in the gaming world. The Kong Off is
very competitive.
Exhibit A - 000183
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 183/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Host: Jermey Young (the villain) makes claims that Billy played on a home machine that
perhaps was tampered with. I shudder when I see this. I get sweaty and upset.

Billy: I have been asked to address a lot of things, and I will. The fact of the matter is that
from a very early time, I was extremely cautious. For example, I was in Twin Galaxies when I
got 800,000+ points on the first man. It was indisputable. I went to funspot, I went there to get
a perfect score. There was a crow, news people, people who became referees. I did it there, I
called it there, it was all awesome. It was a bullet proof environment.

Host: why all of a sudden would somebody with that kind of skill would fake a score? It don't
make sense, LLC.

Billy: I dont' think he is saying that. I have never been on the DKF or TG forum. Nobody has
ever seen me address the LLC. It was founded by PattyCat and Mr. Bigwig (Dwayne). I dont'
say their names on air, I don't want to give them satisfaction or recognition. When people you
know, people you consider you friends, when you keep getting kicked between the knees.
When that happens enough, I get irresponsible sometimes. I have not gone on any forums, I
will never go on the forums and roll in the mud. I will however answer questions from
authority, because I respect authority.

Host: (reading Jeremy Young's question) I understand this will not be a popular decision.

Billy: It sounds pretty popular. I just got two movie offers in two days. People say to me that
when people act this way, they constantly barrage the situation (speaking of PattyCat). I
explain it as it doesn't matter who you were for or against for president. Nobody can argue the
fact that Donald Trump got massive amounts of free press. The haters drove the engine.
Whether they like it or not, they constantly keep my name in front of everybody. Every single
week I get requests to be booked somewhere. I don't have any social media or anything.

Hosts: Are they jealous?

Billy: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (speaking of PattyCat). The fact of the matter, very

few people fall into that category. Most people are good people. I'll answer their questions.

Billy: So to describe the situation, or the problem, or the concern...in 2010 I did what I did at
the time what was far more than I though was necessary. They brought a Donkey Kong
machine in. They were always accommodating, and it was not the first time.

Host: They roll out the red carpet when Billy goes into an arcade.

Billy: (desribes a lot of people in attendance) Nobody hit the score you wanted on the first
attempt. The arcade was 5 miles away from Pete Bouvier's house. It was his introductory to
Boomer's Arcade. I was playing, I am locked on the screen. The game is being recorded.
Behind me 9 feet on a tripod is a camera getting a wide room coverage. When I had the good
fortune to get the score, and I turned around. People who shook my hand and saw me get the
score, Pete Bouvier was one of them. We went above and beyond what was required to make
sure we recorded what happened. Then we went to get something to eat. I was antagonized
that I should play now. I played again and again. I then played DK Junior. When I finished the
Exhibit A - 000184
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 184/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

score, Pete was NOT there. However, there is the game play, the room shot in the back, and
the fact of the matter is everybody is looking at the film, and everybody is questioning
whether it was arcade, or was it MAME.

Billy: I never played mame, I never played it in my home. It is an emulation, but it is NOT the
arcade. There are MAME world records, and the footage that Jeremy has shows MAME

I contend that if he gets the original tape, or if he gets the room shot, he will see what I am
saying is true. That original footage was given to twin galaxies. They should have it, they
must have it. The original tape shows the truth.

Jace Hall says that Twin Galaxies is going through a grown spurt. Walter is out of the
Country. He is kinda weird.

When you look at the tape, you will see Pete Bouvier. When you see the second board put
into the cabinet, it was an authentic DK Jr. Board. I got a call from somebody that said once
we review the tape, the room shot, we can simply zoom in on the DK screen and we can
absolutely see the game play.

Host: You will be vindicated!

Billy: Let me say it another way. I go to these shows. I have my place in history. I spread the
good will. With or without the tape, I'll still get the bookings and I will still have the fun. It
doesn't matter what they say. Another group of people will complain, but that means we will
get even more media coverage. I keep getting calls while talking. My phone is ringing.
(answers phone).

The lunch mob mentality has gotten hold of Todd Rogers. They said his score was not
possible. These so called experts took away his score. Now what you have emailed to you,
what was emailed to me, is the same scenario. They showed a video that has Todd's score
BEAT!

These so called experts will still complain.

Host: We have Richie, do we want to go to him?

Bill: Richie is really fired up.

Summary: the tapes showing Mame are from Dwayne, and Dwayne is a cheater. He cheated
on Nibbler, and he asked Richie to help him cheat on a mame tape in the past to make Twin
Galaxies look bad.

Exhibit A - 000185
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 185/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I got tired of typing. Richie is very pumped. Big bombshell. King of Kong 2. The LLC
(Lonely Losers Club) will NOT be in the movie. They are irrelevent.

02-06-2018, 04:32 PM
Ninglendo

Spoiler Alert: TG doesn't have the Boomer's tape that he said they have. I will bet the farm he
blames current administration for losing it.

02-06-2018, 04:36 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Haha, yeah, common sense would suggest that Billy is the one who played the tapes. I'm not
arguing that at all. He said TG has the originals. If they do, it's going to be very open and shut
case one way or the other. Those tapes will prove who was there/wasn't there, maybe even a
score. Don't know, but yep, it's on TG again???to prove another score was possible?

02-06-2018, 04:36 PM
DadsGlasses

Billy said he doesn’t really even care if the real tape shows up and vindicates him.

02-06-2018, 04:36 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

Spoiler Alert: TG doesn't have the Boomer's tape that he said they have. I will bet the farm he
blames current administration for losing it.

Dont worry @Jace Hall , billy lied about little things to big things. Lying just for the sake of
lying on things that dont matter. When he adds you to the list and lies about you losing the
tapes we'll know how to believe. Man that was just awful.

02-06-2018, 04:38 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Exhibit A - 000186
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 186/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Also, was it Todd's Dragster score being beat, or another game. Might as well talk about that
while we wait for TG to go back in time. Hope they didn't misplace there flux capacitor.

02-06-2018, 04:54 PM
DadsGlasses

Always hard to trust a witness testimony that starts out with, “I would help this guy hide the
body if he murdered someone.”

02-06-2018, 05:08 PM
maximumsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

So this is what you call "addressing this whole situation"?

Well from the start of the middle portion of Bill talking about Peter at Boomers for his DK
game, TG having the original tape of the game and overhead view of the room and people
witnessing, and Richie calling in to mention info about Dwayne, that's when the addressing
was happening, although I will say that the start of the show was horrible and unlistenable
leading up to that point, lol. It comes down to does TG have the original tape of the game and
the room or not? If they do, then it is a open and shut case.

02-06-2018, 05:09 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

There is video evidence at the time of Billy saying peter from twin galaxies never showed up.
He said that himself back in the day and is now changing his story. Is Peter still alive or has
he passed away? If he has passed away I have just lost all respect for Billy as he has changed
his story after the man died.

02-06-2018, 05:09 PM
Robert.F

yeah it was a real eye opener Not , biil fill of it and hes draging Richie down with him

02-06-2018, 05:12 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Well from the start of the middle portion of Bill talking about Peter at Boomers for his DK
game, TG having the original tape of the game and overhead view of the room and people
Exhibit A - 000187
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 187/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

witnessing, and Richie calling in to mention info about Dwayne, that's when the addressing
was happening, although I will say that the start of the show was horrible and unlistenable
leading up to that point, lol. It comes down to does TG have the original tape of the game and
the room or not? If they do, then it is a open and shut case.

so billy in this interview that said pete saw it, or billy on the other video that said pete didnt
see it? Which billy is the liar and which billy is telling the truth. Oh wait, their both billy....

02-06-2018, 05:13 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

But this doesn’t address @timmell ‘s tapes that also show MAME. The two monitors that
Billy presents himself. Aren’t those his own tapes,

02-06-2018, 05:17 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

The footage in these tapes is also Mame. Aren’t these Billy’s own tapes?

https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY

02-06-2018, 05:20 PM
dwwnp

Couple of things to address from that interview...

1.) Richie suggests that Dwayne, as the source of the initial distribution of Billy's tapes, is
untrustworthy. Well, the truth is Dwayne, assuming Billy's play to represent the standard (as
Dwayne states in post #485), distributed those tapes for comparison with the tapes of Wiebe,
in effort to discredit Wiebe. None of us at the time really understood what 1.1m gameplay
looked like, so even when we recognized inconsistencies between the two playstyles we didn't
know which one was legit. Furthermore, I believe Dwayne was friends with Billy at the time
and I think Dwayne was a TG ref, so there's an easy explanation as to how he procured the
tapes.
Exhibit A - 000188
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 188/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

2.) Billy states there exists Boomer's footage from a room cam that will demonstrate he in fact
did play the game in question live. If this is proven to be the case, then suddenly Billy can
claim he wasn't aware he was playing on a MAME setup. Of course, this applies only to the
Boomer's score, and does not directly address why all of his 1m+ games were played on
MAME... Perhaps the same tech that set him up at Boomer's was responsible for his 1.047
and 1.051 configuration.

4.) In the interview Billy essentially takes the stance that none of this matters, as he'll still get
asked to make publicity appearances regardless of the outcome. This may be true, which
makes it even more important to uncover the truth and prevent Billy from continuing to shape
his own narrative.

02-06-2018, 05:28 PM
The Evener

datagod, I hate to ask, but this is what Billy said?

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Host: They roll out the red carpet when Billy goes into an arcade.

Billy: (desribes a lot of people in attendance) Nobody hit the score you wanted on the first
attempt. The arcade was 5 miles away from Pete Bouvier's house. It was his introductory to
Boomer's Arcade. I was playing, I am locked on the screen. The game is being recorded.
Behind me 9 feet on a tripod is a camera getting a wide room coverage. When I had the good
fortune to get the score, and I turned around. People who shook my hand and saw me get
the score, Pete Bouvier was one of them. We went above and beyond what was required to
make sure we recorded what happened. Then we went to get something to eat. I was
antagonized that I should play now. I played again and again. I then played DK Junior. When
I finished the score, Pete was NOT there. However, there is the game play, the room shot in
the back, and the fact of the matter is everybody is looking at the film, and everybody is
questioning whether it was arcade, or was it MAME.

Billy Mitchell 2018, meet Billy Mitchell 2010.

Billy Mitchell 2010 says Pete Bouvier was not in attendance for the DK record.

Billy Mitchell 2010 said, after achieving the DK high score: "Another person we're hoping to
say hi to is Pete - Pete from Twin Galaxies, he's on his way here"

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=1m51s

Exhibit A - 000189
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 189/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy Mitchell 2010, after the DK record, said: "There was a lot of hugs and kisses and
hooting and hollering, and from Twin Galaxies, Pete, was on the phone, and Pete was on his
way over - so I thought this will be great I'll introduce him to the manager and I really wanted
Twin Galaxies to have a strong foothold in south Florida with a place that is really friendly
and cooperative just like other places like Funspot. So Pete was on his way there, and I
turned and I said to the two Twin Galaxies people there, I said one more thing I got to take
care of, and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior.I said 'one more thing I got to take care
of,' and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior. And I thought it was neat because I think it
would have been the first time Pete would have seen a world record, am I right?…so I played
and I guess I was about three quarters of the way through before I said 'Where's Pete?' then
Todd said 'oh, he's not going to be able to make it' - so that's the story about Pete."

https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY?t=3m31s

02-06-2018, 05:32 PM
maximumsteve

02-06-2018, 05:34 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwwnp

Couple of things to address from that interview...

3.) But wait! We know from the Boomer's footage a Junior PCB was on hand, so if we can
demonstrate the Junior footage from the IVGHOF video to also be MAME-generated, then
we can debunk point (2). Additionally, for the 1.051 score allegedly performed at the broker's
convention, Billy went as far as sending his DK PCB off to Nintendo for verification... If
Billy had access to a Nintendo verified DK PCB, then why is his 1.051 score a MAME
performance?
Exhibit A - 000190
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 190/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Is the DK jr footage online anywhere?

02-06-2018, 05:35 PM
timmell

Take aways from Billy on that East Side Dave Show.

Pete Bouvier was not qualified to review a video game score. Let alone a Arcade submission.
If he is there great, but he always referred to David or some other ref. He tried to make TG a
business and understood the WR draw. No technical knowledge.

I also asked a friend on Facebook to ask Billy about my footage. If they are throwing Dwane
under the bus. What about my footage? If this altered or faked. I'm waiting on response. At
this moment. Does Billy even know about my video?

Billy presented those tapes at the IVGHOF as "his" performances. If he claims those are not
his, then he mislead the public back in 2010 at a event where he was inducted in the 1st ever
Video Game Hall of Fame. If today he claims those are not his, IMO then this score should be
removed based on him misleading the general public for " his big announcement." At a
historical gaming event.

02-06-2018, 05:42 PM
DadsGlasses

Devils advocate here: If Billy knows that Twin Galaxies does NOT have the tapes, then
saying that Tein Galaxies has the tapes is a great response. Put the burden on Twin Galaxies
knowing that they can’t deliver.

BUT........ then @timmell ‘s footage comes into play of the IVGHOF event.

02-06-2018, 05:45 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

datagod, I hate to ask, but this is what Billy said?

I was typing as fast as I could, it was hard to keep up. I cannot answer the question without
re-watching the show. I likely have typos, please don't take my transcription as gospel.

02-06-2018, 05:48 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

datagod, I hate to ask, but this is what Billy said?
Exhibit A - 000191
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 191/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Pete B. was there for the Donkey Kong record, but no the Donkey Kong Jr. record, which was
set later (after supper). At least that is what I think Billy said in the interview.

02-06-2018, 05:54 PM
DadsGlasses

Billy also claimed that John Glenn was the “first man in space”. Clearly he wasn’t paying
attention when he heard John Glenn speak. Yuri Gagarin’s estate is not happy about this error.

02-06-2018, 05:56 PM
RTM

I read the transcript thanks to "Datagod's" post as I missed the show.

As expected these were softball questions...kind of like when a defense attorney is

questioning their client on the stand.

Looks like the "Blame it on Corcoran" defense has now become the "Blame it on TG"
defense...same defense, just a bit of a variant.

Dwayne may not be a cheerleader for Bill at this point, but he most certainly would not craft a
doctored performance unless I do now know Dwayne as well as I believe that I do.

I personally only saw Bill's 1.014M performance but I guarantee I did not check it for that
draw-sequence as outlined earlier in this thread as I did not know that MAME behaves
differently than the arcade original when it came to screen draw of the barrel stage. In fact this
thread is the first that I am reading of it, even going back to my recollection of every
discussion among my gaming peers of that era when 20+ of us were watching a replay of
Steve's 1.006M and a presentation of Bill's 1.047M at the cabins during an ACAM event over
a decade ago.

02-06-2018, 05:59 PM
Robert.F

With all the outrage and disbelief tonight over billy and his cast characters a blatant attempt to
sway us all really any surprise? ; skewed facts and smock screen are not going to help you
billy I`m truly sorry

02-06-2018, 06:00 PM
Riatoju

The show was a disaster, I didn't even watch it.

02-06-2018, 06:26 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Peter passed away last year, but you may have missed when he said that Peter was not there
for the DK JR. record part of the day that Bill did after the DK game. Peter was there and
congratulated him right after he finished the DK game but wasn't there after that during his
DK JR. game. Again if TG has the original tape of this game and the overhead shot of the
room and the cabinet, then it will show this exchange between them obviously. Do they have
the tape or not? That question is for Jace Hall to answer. Exhibit A - 000192
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 192/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Jace doesn't need a fictional game-day tape to answer that question, because we can all watch
a real tape from Robert Childs where Billy said Pete wasn't there; we also have another tape
where Billy ribbed Pete publicly at his IVGHOF world record announcement about missing
both the Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior records. The video link has been shared a
few times in the course of this dispute.

It would appear that Billy's disdain for on-line forums hasn't served him well in preparing for
his on-air interview tonight.

02-06-2018, 06:46 PM
Jace Hall

One assertion that seems to be getting made is that the footage from the allegedly leaked tapes
matches the gameplay performance footage used in the KOK. Is that the case?

It would be helpful if someone could produce clear evidence that the footage shown in the
leaked tapes is the same as what is in the KOK film.

Perhaps a screenshot side-by-side comparison placed in the dispute thread for public scrutiny
and evaluation.

Does anyone have that available?

02-06-2018, 06:52 PM
maximumsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwwnp

Couple of things to address from that interview...

3.) But wait! We know from the Boomer's footage a Junior PCB was on hand, so if we can
demonstrate the Junior footage from the IVGHOF video to also be MAME-generated, then
we can debunk point (2). Additionally, for the 1.051 score allegedly performed at the broker's
convention, Billy went as far as sending his DK PCB off to Nintendo for verification... If
Billy had access to a Nintendo verified DK PCB, then why is his 1.051 score a MAME
performance?
Exhibit A - 000193
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 193/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Its been confirmed that the Boomers Donkey Kong arcade cabinet/machine which Billy used
is still alive and well. A Miami arcade collector / gamer (Neil Hernandez) owns the SAME
EXACT machine. The machine was verified by numerous arcade collectors in Freeplay
Florida about 4 years ago who compared the markings on the cabinet with the one on film.
Plus the person who Neil bought it from turned out to be the same arcade operator Billy spoke
about who lent him the machine. I believe the machine should be inspected for any extra
holes or modifications to see if a MAME computer was used at one point in the machine.

02-06-2018, 06:58 PM
Neilhdz

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Hi everyone ,
Yes I am the owner of that very same machine. It's nickname is "The Enzo Machine". It's
named after its previous owner.
Anyone who feels they would like to inspect my machine is more than welcome to come to
Miami FL. and inspect it. I've owned it for 4+ years and that machine does not have any PC
MAME things related inside of it.
The same exact machine Robbie Lakeman DK champ and Wes Copeland DK Player both
have played on the same exact machine in Freeplay Florida.

02-06-2018, 07:07 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Compare the 1.047M footage with any footage from King of Kong. Here's some bonus
footage.

Compare the 1.05M footage with footage post by Settle It On The Screen (formerly TG
Podcast?), here.

And Billy is standing in front of playback of his 1.062M. Unless you're saying that's NOT his
gameplay?

I think this is what you were looking for @Jace Hall

02-06-2018, 07:08 PM
thegamer1185 Exhibit A - 000194
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 194/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

datagod, I hate to ask, but this is what Billy said?

Billy Mitchell 2018, meet Billy Mitchell 2010.

Billy Mitchell 2010 says Pete Bouvier was not in attendance for the DK record.

Billy Mitchell 2010 said, after achieving the DK high score: "Another person we're hoping to
say hi to is Pete - Pete from Twin Galaxies, he's on his way here"

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=1m51s

https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY?t=3m31s

Billy said in the interview that Pete was there for the DK run, but not the DK Jr run. I
remember that part very clearly. So Pete was there for the DK and shoot his hand, they went
to eat, Billy was pressured to play more instead of the next day, he got the DKJR score and
Pete was not there for it. That's what he said in the interview. So Pete was there for one, not
both.

02-06-2018, 07:09 PM
Robert.F

its over man give it up

02-06-2018, 07:12 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

The show was a disaster, I didn't even watch it.

This doesn't even make sense. How do you know if you didn't watch it?

02-06-2018, 07:14 PM
Riatoju

Quote: Exhibit A - 000195

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 195/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

This doesn't even make sense. How do you know if you didn't watch it?

Because everyone I know who supports Billy thought is was disgusting. I think he lost alot of
supporters today.

02-06-2018, 07:14 PM
Dwayne Richard
richie suggesting i asked him for help?

The summer of king of kong's release was the first year richie was at funspot as far as i know.
We went out for dinner, gary v and his wife, dave nelson and jenn sweet, richie and myself.
We were talking about king of kong. I had been released for my protests about king of kong
scores and acceptances. I said at the dinner table that someone should submit a bogus dk score
to see if the referees could catch it. That is my experience with Richie. I think he is unstable
so i avoid him. Nothing more nothing less.

I don't know anything about MAME that is why i asked Rick if he would help in a possible
scenario to see if the new referees could catch it and then let them know. He wanted no part
and i never pushed any harder. That was it because Hank had me convinced it had already
been done.

The other thing is duplication is on thing how would i set up as direct feed tape with no
sound. I have to know everything. I'm smart but i don't know everything.

The man vs snake guys were riding my ass about this. Hank told me not to do anything at the
time when dave ignored his evidence. I still have our emails. He told me is i pushed it forward
at that time he would deny everything. So i kept quiet about it. It wasn't until the film guys
pissed me off that i showed him my communication with hank. I would have exposed bill not
me for doing something wrong. These stupid people find it easier to accept a lie then believe
the truth.

I care about the integrity of the scoreboard. In classic games there is alot of my efforts there.
Who the **** cheats at nibbler?! I had no idea what was wrong with my board. They got
experts to find out and were surprised I didn't know? wtf They had a hard time excepting that.
Why would i knowing submit a score which is so easy to see that something is wrong? I never
hid anything i gave them my tapes and boards. They had more info from people and never
explained why they were asking me certain questions. They were looking for answers i didn't
know or have in the doc.

Tim knows exactly why i started playing again. There was an article by Josh Bearman that
pissed us both off because his facts were wrong about nibbler holding a billion and not rolling
over. Josh called me to fact check and i told him it rolls over but walter told him it didn't. I
played to show walter had no idea wtf he was talking about. Everyone listens to him and he is
clueless. TIm didn't have a machine yet and man vs snake had not started filming. That was
the only reason i started playing nibbler again.

02-06-2018, 07:15 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

This doesn't even make sense. How do you know if you didn't watch it?
Exhibit A - 000196
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 196/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

because even the people involved are no in panic mode promising they'll be a better follow up
and already trying to backtrack

02-06-2018, 07:15 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Time to get the dragonballs and wish him back to life. Or we could use them to end this
dispute, that would be awesome too.

02-06-2018, 07:18 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

You don't need to make any holes or modifications to use a MAME computer in a Donkey
Kong cabinet, plus such an inspection wouldn't prove anything either way anyway.

02-06-2018, 07:30 PM
dwwnp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilhdz

Testimony the machine used at Boomer's was not running MAME, and thereby testimony the
videos being shown by Billy at the IVGHOF were not captured from the Boomer's machine.

Thank you. Billy is lying. Case closed.

Exhibit A - 000197
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 197/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-06-2018, 07:45 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)

This issue was brought up years ago by others and touched upon earlier in this thread, and
most recently by @Robert.F , so it’s timely to revisit it.

In light of research from @xelnia identifying MAME game recordings, and the ability to
cross-reference Robert Childs’ “DK world record” video with the Billy Mitchell video
statement recorded by @Tim mel at the IVGHOF in 2010, one can definitively confirm that
the footage at Boomer’s arcade was staged for the sole purpose of creating a visual
narrative of a live public performance on a DK arcade machine to accompany the
MAME play-throughs. Additionally, we can confirm there was no DK world record set
that day since the DK cabinet on site only had the Donkey Kong Junior PCB installed.
We know because Robert Childs accidently exposes the ruse in his video.

"Billy Mitchell speaks (july,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record"
https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc

“We have a new donkey kong junior record July, 2010”

https://youtu.be/UvdrEgk2l6g

“Announcement of Billy Mitchell's dual DK and DKJR records”

https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY

In outlining the potential content of a dispute review, Dave Haskett wrote, “If there is
evidence [a game] did not happen, as opposed to being impossible, that would belong here.” I
am including this analysis in the spirit of that criterion.

Robert’s description for the Donkey Kong video reads: "After breaking the DK world record
billy walks away from the game with 2 men left and another 5 or so boards to go before the
kill screen. Its simply Billy being Billy."

What many of us found strange is when Billy said in the video, "when the records came, they
came," which cast doubt on whether Billy was referring to DK alone, or DK and DK Junior as
"records." This confusion was compounded by a separate Boomer's video intended to
document the moments following Billy’s DK Junior world record; Robert rushes in after he
was at home sleeping and only Todd is still present. It didn't make chronological sense that
there were two videos documenting the time after the DK Junior record, particularly with
Robert's absence and return to the arcade.

What's clear now is that the "moments after breaking donkey kong record" video was indeed
intended to document the DK record alone. When viewing this video in tandem with Billy’s
statement at the IVGHOF, we can identify a key timeline marker – Pete Bouvier – to firmly
establish the intended sequence of the videos.

In Robert’s DK video, Billy remarks that he’s hoping to speak to Pete from Twin Galaxies,
who is apparently on his way down to the arcade following word of the new world record.

In the IVGHOF presentation video, Billy recounts again that he was waiting on Pete
following his DK record, and he learned that Pete wouldn’t make it after all while playing
Donkey Kong Junior.

With clear confirmation of the timeline – Billy looking to talk to Pete after his DK record - we
Exhibit A - 000198
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 198/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

can emphatically point to the Robert Childs DK video as “evidence” created to support a false
narrative of live game play only moments after Billy achieved a DK record.

More damning still - despite best efforts to keep the camera point away from the DK cabinet,
the sheer impossibility of a DK record run is accidentally exposed at the 2:02 mark of
Robert’s DK video as he rapidly pans the camera past Billy. A small corner of DK screen is
mistakenly caught on film, showing not the expected Donkey Kong game screen, but Donkey
Kong Junior.

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=2m2s (When the video loads, pause and frame advance by

hitting the ‘.’ key.)

Attachment 49710

The exclusive presence of a DK Junior PCB in the Donkey Kong cabinet is corroborated by
Robert’s PCB swap video, which is intended to document a DK / DK Junior board swap, but
actually shows Robert pulling out and replacing the same DK Junior PCB.

What originally appeared to be an bizarre vanity project now has a comprehensive

explanation – the videos were designed to “document” Billy’s visit to Boomers and obfuscate
the MAME-based origins of two records he passed off as occurring on original hardware
during a public arcade visit. Further, the video also confirms that an original Donkey Kong
PCB was not present in the arcade machine in the moments immediately following the
claimed DK performance, rendering any claim of a live arcade DK record a logistical
impossibility.

02-06-2018, 07:56 PM
Robert.F

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvk

02-06-2018, 07:58 PM
timmell
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

One assertion that seems to be getting made is that the footage from the allegedly leaked tapes
matches the gameplay performance footage used in the KOK. Is that the case?

It would be helpful if someone could produce clear evidence that the footage shown in the
leaked tapes is the same as what is in the KOK film.

Perhaps a screenshot side-by-side comparison placed in the dispute thread for public scrutiny
and evaluation.

Does anyone have that available?

I don't know if that is case for those scores.

This Dispute is for 1,062,800. Here is the frame on loading of the graphics for the pie stage.
Side by Side comparison. Everyone can make the call for themselves.

Attachment 49709
Exhibit A - 000199
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 199/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy's Video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHSoe74TDc

This video is slowed and shows the capture date of the video from my video camera as I
filmed this in 2010.
Chris Gleed Direct Capture. Pie level load. https://youtu.be/L5araM3eIuo

There is other evidence so please go back to Page 19. The information above is what I can
provide based on my experience and know how.

02-06-2018, 08:34 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

One assertion that seems to be getting made is that the footage from the allegedly leaked tapes
matches the gameplay performance footage used in the KOK. Is that the case?

It would be helpful if someone could produce clear evidence that the footage shown in the
leaked tapes is the same as what is in the KOK film.

Perhaps a screenshot side-by-side comparison placed in the dispute thread for public scrutiny
and evaluation.

Does anyone have that available?

Here are two videos:

"Billy Mitchell vs. Steve Wiebe: Donkey Kong" - from "The King of Kong: A Fistful of
Quarters" DVD Bonus Material

https://youtu.be/jkwECcfqX_I?t=2m13s

"Billy Mitchell 1,047,200 Donkey Kong [From King of Kong]"

https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk?t=58m32s

I selected times on both videos to start on the rivets board at 391500. You can use the first
video as an official KoK document to skip through and compare to the "leaked" video. The
KoK video will not show transitions, but it will confirm that the "leaked" video is the same
game play, thereby permitting confidence in evaluating transitions on the "leaked" video.

02-06-2018, 08:37 PM
dwwnp

There's also this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk#t=2h21m50s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zhMlFOyZvQ#t=48m50s

02-06-2018, 09:18 PM Exhibit A - 000200

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 200/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The Evener
2 Attachment(s)

Here is a photo from the "leaked" KoK tape, and one from KoK both at 989,400 points.

Attachment 49717
Attachment 49718

02-06-2018, 09:53 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

It's starting to make my head spin how many different disputes of footage and witnesses and
hearsay there is. We need someone obsessive to make a timeline flowchart with each pertinent
'event' that includes the disputes and who was caught lying or changing their story.

I mean as far as I've seen, the side-by-side photos are a slam-dunk. I keep thinking the line
Bill Paxton gave in Aliens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZmL1sck6LE

So glad you didn't use "Game over man! Game over!" Still so good, but over used. I always
laugh when he says "Maybe you should put her in charge." Referring to Newt surviving on
her own. Or sometimes, it could work if you really wanted to be blunt "How do I get out of
this chicken fit outfit?"

02-06-2018, 09:53 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)

Adding another set of photos to provide a second point of comparison from the KoK movie
(top) and "leaked" video (bottom). Both at 998,400 points.

Attachment 49719

02-06-2018, 09:59 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

And auto correct ruins yet another posts. Either way, about the dispute. I was afraid that
interview was going to play out 1 of 3 ways. It was either all Billy's favor (hugely it turns
out), all against him, or actually some good interviewing would happen. He did address why
the dispute was occurring because of the MAME/Arcade differences. His lack luster attitude
toward the whole thing was kind of disappointing. OK, I get it. You get older and start caring
less about things, but his DK scores are what made the guy. You could at least pretend you
will be disappointed. He wasn't at all. Maybe the guy always has a "hang loose and hanging
Exhibit A - 000201
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 201/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

ten" attitude and never lets anything bother him. He is right, I'm sure he will be getting
contacted more than ever, but for the wrong reasons. Any big time interviewer or movie guy
will have their facts straight before doing anything major with him. If they don't, they are only
hurting their product. Then again, people like some really stupid ****.

02-06-2018, 11:24 PM
Ninglendo

I can verify somethings that have been brought up after having a community discussion
tonight. @falcor781 was there at Funspot when Billy presented his tape for the KoK movie.
If he wants to chime in on this I'm sure he is willing to. Anyways, from what Falcor781 told
us all and what I have seen from the tape presented later we had the exact same occurrences.
Meaning, video errors and fuzziness were in the exact same spot. I can also verify that what
Billy said about TG having the infamous Boomer's crowd tape is a complete lie. Most of the
TG tapes are from Tom Votava and other gamers that have nothing to do with the dispute.
According to what I was told there was 7 boxes of tapes none that have any Billy tapes. This
is important because I don't want Billy or anyone else coming down on TG and saying they
simply lost the tape which is an excuse I have seen before. Another thing I had gathered is
that Billy straight up lied about the meaningless stuff like being the #1 TG card. While this
isn't completely untrue the way he brought it up was in the fashion of "Would their be any
other?". Paul Zimmerman shared that honor with Billy. Billy knows this as well and it isn't a
fact you would simply forget given the ego of Billy.

02-06-2018, 11:30 PM
Ninglendo
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 49720
Here is the shared #1 card.

02-07-2018, 05:51 AM
IAmNerdJock

Is there more footage anywhere of Billy's DK Jr run? From glancing at the following
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHSoe74TDc it looks like it loads in pieces

02-07-2018, 06:07 AM
datagod
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

Spoiler Alert: TG doesn't have the Boomer's tape that he said they have. I will bet the farm he
blames current administration for losing it.

We need a sad face button. "Like" and "Thank" options are not enough.

Attachment 49722

02-07-2018, 06:14 AM
Snowflake

all i'm saying is, its not atari and time period is off so ron didnt destroy the tapes. they didnt
get sent to some ref in texas to melt in his locker. so tg had the tapes right? now they're gone?
Exhibit A - 000202
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 202/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

and tg had someone on the inside willing to destroy evidence for billy....

02-07-2018, 06:59 AM
bh_

Hi, the users over at the Donkey Kong Forum asked that I cross post here.

The smash scores in the 1,050,000 WR are very suspicious. So far I've only examined barrel
stages. It'd be nice to transcribe the 1,047,200 WR but the video quality is atrocious. I'll
donate $50 to Child's Play if anyone can provide a complete transcript of either game
including points, timestamp, type and stage for each non-fixed value smash.

Quote:

After seeing Wes Copeland's argument against Mitchell's run, I decided to

figure out just how unusual it is.

I started by transcribing all of the blue barrel and flame smashes from
barrel stages on Mitchell's 1,050,000 game. Here's my spreadsheet with
timestamps. I hope this is accurate. The video has serious quality
problems and much of the time I was stuck inferring scores from digit
rollover in the blurry total score. I welcome any efforts to replicate,
extend or amend this transcript.

What I found is that the score distribution in the 1.05m run is significantly
shifted toward the high range. There are fourteen 300 pt blue barrel
smashes and thirty-four 800 pt smashes. On average his blue barrel
smashes were worth 570 points and his flame smashes 477 points.
Between these two types of smashes he scored 78,500 points over his
runs. The odds of this happening fairly are about 1 in 360 (99.73th
percentile), or about once per 450 hours of near perfect play.

I suspect a transcription of variable scoring events in rivet and conveyor

stages will push the odds into absurd heights.

Thanks goes to @othercriteria for double checking my math, and Wes

Copeland and the folks on #mame for patiently answering my questions.

02-07-2018, 08:26 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

RTM REPLY - I'll answer in parts...

Exhibit A - 000203
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 203/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

-> Ron would have never seen a Billy performance. He was gone before Billy submitted the
1.014M (in response to Steve's 1.006M) within the July-August 2014 range. No previous
Billy performance as far as DK or DKJr was ever submitted to TG during my administration
Apr/01 up to that point. I cannot speak as to pre-Apr/01.

-> I had Billy's 1.014M tape as part of my comparative article for the two simultaneous 1M
submissions to TG. The 1.014M is either currently in the possession of Dwayne Richard as
part of his documentary effort, or was sent to Shawn Carm in Maine (via Brian Kuh driving it
up on Nov/07)

-> I am aware that Bill's 1.050M performance was circulated among key TG advisors shortly
after its completion as part of a validation process. I was not one of the recipients but I know
of one of the recipients for sure as I just received confirmation yesterday evening. Who the
other recipients are I will try to find out.

-> To the best of my recollection, I have never, EVER seen or heard of a Billy DK Jr
performance ever being submitted on tape for TG validation at any point. The latest
"reclaiming" WR performance was likely validated by on-premise TG staffers "live" but I do
not recall hearing of a tape being distributed to anyone for co-validation.

02-07-2018, 08:33 AM
RTM

I would add that no one working with me during my administration at TG...myself

included...would willfully destroy a performance, though I can in no way speak as to staffers
hired after my departure.

Dwayne was, if I remember correctly, never a formal TG staffer. I am not 100% certain as it
has been 11+ years since I left TG, but I do not believe that he was even a "referee-at-large"
(like Shawn Cram). I believe that at best he was consulted on technical issues on an as-
neededs basis though he was never a formally recognized TG technical advisor such as Greg
Erway was.

********************

I saved Steve Wiebe's 947K, 985K, 999.5K as well as 1.006M even after his 1.049M was
received. They were TG intellectual and physical property and I would have had no right to
throw them out.

This is why I am so offended and annoyed at what Corcoran most likely did back in the day
with respect to his cache of 2600 tapes he was acting as custodian for on behalf of TG.

02-07-2018, 08:37 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I would add that no one working with me during my administration at TG...myself
included...would willfully destroy a performance, though I can in no way speak as to staffers
hired after my departure.

Dwayne was, if I remember correctly, never a formal TG staffer. I am not 100% certain as it
has been 11+ years since I left TG, but I do not believe that he was even a "referee-at-large"
Exhibit A - 000204
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 204/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

(like Shawn Cram). I believe that at best he was consulted on technical issues on an as-
neededs basis though he was never a formally recognized TG technical advisor such as Greg
Erway was.

********************

I saved Steve Wiebe's 947K, 985K, 999.5K as well as 1.006M even after his 1.049M was
received. They were TG intellectual and physical property and I would have had no right to
throw them out.

This is why I am so offended and annoyed at what Corcoran most likely did back in the day
with respect to his cache of 2600 tapes he was acting as custodian for on behalf of TG.

ah if you think i was implying it was you let me elaborate, on the low class show that billy did
his interview on, he got richie to say how much he trusts and loves billy and that if billy
murdered someone he'd help dispose of the body. Sure sounded to me like he said he'd help
billy destroy evidence of wrong doing. its on the record now, and i call no backsies. The
admission of willingnes to help bily destroy evidence should not be ignored.

02-07-2018, 08:39 AM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

So is the DK Jr on the left monitor being played in this video the recording of his DK Jr
record?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHSoe74TDc

If so, it loads just like MAME

02-07-2018, 08:47 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

So is the DK Jr on the left monitor being played in this video the recording of his DK Jr
record?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHSoe74TDc

If so, it loads just like MAME

RTM REPLY - I would not know, myself...in all the years that I have known Billy I have
only seen him play DK in person just once at an early ACAM event in the 1999-2001 range.
Exhibit A - 000205
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 205/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

He MIGHT have played during the Mall of America event in 2001 but if so then I missed that
as I was likely working on one of the many sub-events taking place within the staging area
(most likely the Marvel-vs-Capcom 2 event)

02-07-2018, 08:55 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

RTM REPLY - Richie I do not trust for a number of reasons. He definitely did not have
custody of the 1.014M tape and I do not believe he had primary custody of the 1.05M tape
either. As for any higher performance, that I would not know.

Has anyone tried to get comments from Walter on these ongoing developments ? I have to
imagine that Walter would not only have some personal comments and recollections to
provide which would be useful, but I believe that he should feel obligated to explain his own
involvement...or stated lack thereof...with respect to Bill's many performances.

Walter was the "referee" who entered Bill's much-vaunted "Pacman" score into the TG
database as well as his earliest scores on both DK and DK Jr. Walter would have also entered
Bill's midwest event DK score in the 930K-range.

Walter also entered...which I immediately deleted...the 1.047M DK score revealed at ACAM

2005. Post-1.047M I was no longer part of TG so have no idea who would have entered Bill's
subseqeuent DK or DK Jr scores into the TG database.

But someone needs to ask the hardball question to Walter...

-> did he have ANY knowledge or personal suspicion that Bill might have been using MAME
performances masquerading as arcade performances when submitting to TG ?

And that's just for starters.

02-07-2018, 09:18 AM
Julius Reigns

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - I would not know, myself...in all the years that I have known Billy I have
only seen him play DK in person just once at an early ACAM event in the 1999-2001 range.
He MIGHT have played during the Mall of America event in 2001 but if so then I missed that
as I was likely working on one of the many sub-events taking place within the staging area
(most likely the Marvel-vs-Capcom 2 event)

Exhibit A - 000206
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 206/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

in the most respectful way: Robert, if you do not know, please stop clouding up the evidence
field with what you think could or would have happened. Some of your posts and
recollections are invaluable, but please, wait until this type of evidence is required if it will be
at all. I can't thank you enough for you sharing your accounts and memories of what's
happened. Right now, we are simply looking at a clear name video done by Billy Mitchell. If
that falls through, the dispute will stay open and we will have a chance to present evidences
like this, but at the moment I feel these types of posts are just confusing and muddying up the
dead-ringer evidence we have. If someone asks you a question I think by all means answer it.
But these types of posts just don't seem to make sense to me and as of now, seem to only
serve to give more long written material people need to read through with no real substance as
compared to the packet that was assembled and put forth. I'm not a moderator and I can't tell
you what to do, this is just a friendly request to wait and let's see where the clear cut evidence
goes before we get into all this.
Thanks for understanding hopefully.

02-07-2018, 10:45 AM
Mitch Mitchell

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

BUT........ then @timmell ‘s footage comes into play of the IVGHOF event.

Precisely my thoughts, he attempts to hinge it on a tape he (potentially) knows doesn't exist;

however at his event announcement with Sanders he showed both games playing side by side,
clearly supplied by himself and might not know that being recorded would catch him up.
He might then position those tapes at the announcement must of been switched without his
knowledge (insanity) and mention Mr. Awrsome was there maybe he did it; on and on rolling
with the punches, compounding lies for wiggle room.

02-07-2018, 11:43 AM
expandedidea
1 Attachment(s)
Different board sets...

I have heard the argument recently on other venues that differing revisions of the board could
cause the girders to be drawn as they do on mame. Without getting into technical details on
this, there is no reason at all why this would ever be the case. The way that the video ram is
read whilst simultaneously drawing the raster image is the same across all of the DK board
revisions.

For reference, I have attached a screenshot from a TKG-3 4 stack board that shows the
characteristics that the more common TKG-4 2 board stacks shown in this thread. Notice how
the ladders are the top are still shown to be partially drawn, despite the fact that the video was
not recorded at a very high frame rate. To sum it up, the revision of the PCB has nothing to do
with the theory used by nintendo when designing these boards. And the "brand of the
components" or anything like that certainly has nothing to do with changing a fundamental
characteristic of the design of these boards.
Exhibit A - 000207
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 207/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Referenced video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI0qS8ce0ug&t=270s (used "," and "."

to skip frame by frame on youtube)

Attachment 49732

02-07-2018, 11:57 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Reigns

RTM REPLY - there were a few comments made about non-specific former TG staffers who
may/may not have seen this of that. My posts were largely not intended to "cloud up"
anything...to be honest in many respects they are to clear either myself or those under my
tenure at the time from culpability as finger-pointing is in part underway.

02-07-2018, 12:12 PM
Marcade

The edited version (THANK GOD) is now available on YouTube for those who missed the
interview.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX3TCiCiMWs

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwmQl_AUfkQ

Carry on...

02-07-2018, 12:12 PM
Snowflake
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - there were a few comments made about non-specific former TG staffers who
may/may not have seen this of that. My posts were largely not intendedExhibit
to "cloudAup"
- 000208
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 208/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

anything...to be honest in many respects they are to clear either myself or those under my
tenure at the time from culpability as finger-pointing is in part underway.

speaking of finger pointing, Joel west, who has worked on Billy’s recent pr nightmare has
actually said he knows of cheating but keeps it secret and encourages us to keep cheating
secret explaining that’s somehow the course of wisdom. I don’t know if he knows of billy
cheating per se or others but the cheating he does know of and cover up is surely worth an
investigation whether billy is that cheat or not Attachment 49733Attachment 49733

02-07-2018, 12:25 PM
Julius Reigns

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I understand. My point was I thought you quit Twin Galaxies in 2006. His question was about
a video from 2010 of DKJR. It just seems like I find my self reading long drawn out posts that
are just how YOU FEEL what MIGHT have POSSIBLY happened interlaced with a bunch of
recollections you feel are interesting (most, if not all of them are to me as a reader) but hold
no bearing on the dispute and I feel only muddy the amount of material someone must read in
this dispute to find factual evidence. The reason I make sure to read them is because some of
your post are invaluable to this dispute, but others I think could be answered like this one. "I
don't know, I left Twin Galaxies in 2006, this video is from 2010. Maybe someone else can
confirm it."

But at this point I'll let you go on, as I am now distracting from the dispute. Have a good one.

02-07-2018, 01:10 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Reigns

But at this point I'll let you go on, as I am now distracting from the dispute. Have a good one.

The dispute is simple, even on the tapes billy played to the crowd displaying his "world
record", it was done on mame. Billy isn't a million point player.

02-07-2018, 01:20 PM
rotunda Exhibit A - 000209
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 209/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I have to agree.

Billy seems like a nice guy but you can't knock the evidence. This is clearly a MAME score
with possible INP manipulation and maybe even save state usage with the VHS being
paused/resumed.

The fact there is no sound always made me wonder about this score. I remember by default
some MAME versions had incorrect sounds or missing sounds which you could add on later
MAME versions or it was "patched" at some point. Not exactly sure when. By default the
jump sound and a few others were missing. I bet Billy at the time couldn't "patch" this issue
so just went with no sound.

Again, I'm no Billy hater I like the guy but you can't ignore this score is really, really dodgy.
Everything about it is dodgy and questionable.

With the recent evidence on top... You literally can't ignore the fact this is MAME.

Going with an accept.

02-07-2018, 01:38 PM
DadsGlasses

I am absolutely not making excuses for cheaters. At all.

I said during and after the Dragster dispute that I thought Todd was a kid that got caught up in
a wave that overtook him. Once in, he didn’t really know how to get out. (And didn’t want
out.)

With Billy, things seem to be similar. (Yet different). Seems like he got caught up in this idea
that he was the lead ambassador for Arcade video gaming. Walter seems to have stoked this
notion. The industry was swelling and there was finally some money to be made.
Unfortunately this all happened at a time when Billy had reached his peak. Competitors were
rising up and surpassing his skill level. Based on the recent interview, Billy seems to feel that
his role as Ambassador and MC was equally as important as his role as a player. He doesn’t
seem to have much technical know how when it comes to Arcade hardware or software. He
found a way to produce tapes that showed a game with the scores he needed. (Or rather I
believe he found someone else that was capable of producing the tapes.)

Now, after all this time, he continues to believe that the role he plays is of vital importance to
the gaming community. More important than Twin Galaxies, or Donkey Kong Forum, or any
other gaming entity.

I know this post post does not add any evidence to the dispute. Mods can certainly delete if
this is seen as clutter. My purpose was to point out that as a member of the gaming
community, I stand behind the importance of Twin Galaxies, Donkey Kong Forums, and other
entities like them. No individual player is more important than the integrity of the community
as a whole. Maybe that was the case at one point in time. It is no longer.

02-07-2018, 02:05 PM
Mitch Mitchell
Something Nagging Me

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000210
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 210/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

I am absolutely not making excuses for cheaters. At all.

I said during and after the Dragster dispute that I thought Todd was a kid that got caught up in
a wave that overtook him. Once in, he didn’t really know how to get out. (And didn’t want
out.)

He has indeed said multiple times that he has no idea how PCB's work and has no tech
knowledge and always goes above and beyond to mention this time and time again (like
during the dkjr board swap clip in this dispute); and even during the East Side Dave Show
yesterday he added he doesn't have MAME at home and seemed to be treating it with the
same purported ignorance of its workings as arcade hardware.
Its been naggin at me that he's been trying to sell his hardware ignorance to actually hide the
fact that he does indeed have the knowledge thereof, you'd never suspect someone of
hardware or software manipulation who always acts clueless about it, but thats a well
established tell in poker; when someone is selling you a situation the truth is usually the
opposite.
Now all this MAME footage scomes to light and it could be save stated and many runs
threaded together; that sure sounds like someone who has more knowledge about it than he
lets on.

02-07-2018, 02:36 PM
DadsGlasses

Don’t get me wrong, I think he knows enough to know what he has. Mame generates
fakenscore performances. I doubt he knows how to create them on his own.

But it no matter what he knows, I think he believes that “Billy Mitchell” matters more to
gaming than fake scores do. That’s the tragedy.

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000211
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 211/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

02-07-2018, 02:43 PM
Snowflake

Oh no you mean billy might not be legit. Guess I gotta throw away all my games he was the
only reason I played. Somebody warn Nintendo employees they’re all about to get laid off.
Whatever will we do gaming can never survive without those amazing performances of his.

02-07-2018, 04:23 PM
thegamer1185

So I have been going rounds, literally rounds, with Joel West, Eric Tessel who absolutely
refuse the evidence presented in this case on Facebook. I have asked numerous times for them
to show us what they have. Every response has been screen captures don't prove 100% that
Billy used MAME. I then have to ask the same questions again, telling them to show their
evidence on TG/DKF to those who think this score isn't possible. I then get answers like I'm
jealous or can I prove he didn't do it. It's been going on for 2 days now. I personally don't
care. I'm watching South Park and uploading scores TG while doing this. I am as non-biased
as anyone regarding this score. I have tried to get Billy's supporters to come here and dispute
the evidence against Billy or show evidence he did it. Nothing, at all.

I'm stating for the record, I don't know Billy, I don't know Todd Rogers. I have treated each
dispute as non-biased as possible. One side has dominated the evidence while the other has
literally done nothing but talk with no evidence. I have tried. @admin staff , @Jace Hall , if
you haven't seen some of these threads on Facebook you should go take a look. Not as
evidence for or against Billy, but just as a quick point of none of Billy's friends will be
coming to TG to dispute the evidence. So if your giving them time, your wasting your time.

I'm incredibly stubborn at times, but it's with logic behind it. This is beyond me. They seem to
worship Billy so much, talk of his abilities, back him 100%, yet they are too good to come
here to defend him? I do not compute.

Just want to let you all know, if you guys have a score that is disputed or need me to back you
on something, I will. I will use what I know, either against or in favor, to help clear things. I
would never use another source to do so. I'm not trying to be all high and mighty, but god
damn. This is beyond insanity.

I only have one last thing to say to any of Billy's supporters who are taking this stuff of
TG/DKF. If one of your friends/family was on trial for murder, and you had evidence they
Exhibit A - 000212
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 212/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

were innocent, would you take that evidence to the trial? Or would you let a friend explain
your story/post it to another source expecting it to affect the trial? This is literally insane. No
other word for it. It's insanity.

Again, I have tried asking questions off site for evidence. Nothing. I have stated it probably
15 times now where all could see to come to TG/DKF to dispute the evidence. Nothing. There
may have been a few of you and for that, Thank you. My god thank you. Whether you
provided any evidence or just to give your 2 cents on the matter, thank you.

02-07-2018, 05:43 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

The sounds in MAME DK have never been right. The older versions of MAME used sound
samples for the analog sounds (if you didn't download those samples, put them in the right
folder, and make sure they were enabled in the settings, DK would simply be missing the
analog sounds during gameplay), which didn't sound right at all, and the newer versions of
MAME emulate the analog sounds rather than use samples, and it still sounds wrong, just in a
different way. So regardless of which version of MAME someone used, and regardless of
whether they had the sound samples or not, it could always be identified as MAME just by
listening to it. There are only two possible solutions for the would-be cheater in this case: (1)
record all of the DK sounds from a real PCB and then go in and manually dub them into the
video, all at the perfect locations, like a Hollywood Foley artist might do, or (2) don't record
any audio at all and hope no one thinks there's anything fishy about that. Conveniently (or
inconveniently, depending on your perspective), the tape in question has no sound.

Do any of Mitchell's taped 1 million+ point scores have sound? I would think that a video
would have been required by TG rules to have sound back then. Does anyone know what the
specific rules for taped submissions were at the time? Sound is a key element of a video game
which can help the adjudicator verify that the PCB is authentic and in proper working order.
For example, the arcade game that I know best is Super Punch-Out. If I were to adjudicate
someone's tape, I could tell if it was played on MAME just from the incorrect sound effect of
Dragon Chan's kick, not to mention the audio being slightly out of sync.

02-07-2018, 05:48 PM
thegamer1185

Finally saw an answer regarding evidence. Joel West is going to show his evidence tomorrow
night. He said this, I'm just reporting it here. I wish it was shown here, but I doubt it will be.
Hope I'm wrong.

02-07-2018, 05:50 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185 Exhibit A - 000213

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 213/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

we also heard the bomb would drop last night

i predict "tune in next week when i'll tell you to tune in next week for evidence"

02-07-2018, 05:52 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

we also heard the bomb would drop last night

i predict "tune in next week when i'll tell you to tune in next week for evidence"

That's all we can do until this is closed I guess.

02-07-2018, 06:03 PM
rotunda

Quote:

That just says to me, as a non-biased TG member that they have no evidence to show. If i had
a lifeline for someone i admired/supported I would be there in a flash.

I'm sorry but this evidence is pretty conclusive... I guess it's just hard to accept if you support
someone and/or admire them as much as Billy's followers appear to. I would love to be
proved wrong but I'm saying this is a MAME run hence my prompt acceptance of this dispute
on my previous post. You just can't deny the evidence against Billy is very strong at this
stage.

I hope they do show up and provide me with a reason to change my vote though, as I hate to
see any score removed to be quite honest.

But like you say... I can't see that happening as I really can't see how anyone can alter the
facts here.

02-07-2018, 06:09 PM
zallard1

So, this case seems pretty open and shut in my eyes; seems like that's the case for many, many
other people too. I'm guessing Twin Galaxies is looking for the tape thatExhibit
Billy mentioned at
A - 000214
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 214/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the moment? Or did that that come up dry? I legit don't know, I haven't caught up with all the
happenings around this yet.

As it stands right now, it is indisputable that those 3 runs that Billy has presented to Twin
Galaxies (1047200, 1050200, and 1062800) are played in MAME.

People suggesting that Billy can prove this score by performing a run today are completely
missing the point of the dispute. Him doing a run right now that gets 1 million+ points does
not change the proven fact that his runs are fabricated. Not. One. Bit. Stop suggesting it; it has
no actual impact on the dispute at hand.

The other argument I'm seeing, and it really seems to be the only possible realistic argument
that's even left to grasp onto for Billy's side at the moment, is that the runs that Billy
submitted were not actually Billy's runs.

My question, how on earth could Billy possibly let that happen, not just once, but three
"known" times? You would think that at least one of these times, he would, oh I don't know,
WATCH his own runs before passing them off as his own. Even at the IVGHOF event with
his 1.062 million game running in the background, you're telling me that he didn't realize that
the game playing wasn't his? Not once with it running for people to spectate? Not even for 5
seconds? Not any time before that? Really???

And then there's the issue of why. Why would Dwayne go to such preposterous lengths to
even do this? If he had a falling out with Billy and supposedly swapped the tapes with tool
assisted MAME footage, then why has this not been brought up until 2018? Wouldn't
Dwayne's motive be to expose him for this if that was his master plan? This theory assumes
that Dwayne swapped the tapes himself, meaning he obviously would know that those were
all MAME runs for years and years by this point. If he knew about the tapes being swapped
for so long, then why would he just do nothing the entire time? It makes zero sense from a
motive perspective in my eyes. Does anyone have any logical takes on this to where this
makes sense to me? I'd appreciate even the slightest bit of extra context here just in case I'm
missing something here.

This theory also assumes that the MAME footage was so authentic and convincing looking
that Billy would never have noticed that any of his tapes were different, let alone that it wasn't
his play at all. I don't think some of the people accusing Dwayne over Billy actually realize
how incredibly difficult and time consuming it is to create a tool assisted run in the first place,
even for a run that's on the order of 10-20 minutes! These Donkey Kong runs are supposed to
be 2 and a half hours or longer each?! Imagine someone hating someone else so much that
they go through this incredible, unbelievable task of recreating each of these behemoths
completely fueled by hate. The amount of work that would go into that would be incredible,
and something that would probably be a feat in and of itself.

Now imagine after this inconceivable amount of work on doing those 3 fabricated MAME
runs, transferring them over to VHS's that are mocked up to look like the original ones that
Billy supposedly had, and successfully swapping them without Billy detecting anything,
Dwayne does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING after that.

Occam's razor is a concept that some people at TG should consider sometime.

Maybe Billy played his 3 runs on MAME hardware by playing on 3 different arcade machines
strategically planted to disqualify his records years later. Maybe Billy just really got obscene
luck that has never been matched by Donkey Kong players in any subsequent record runs to
this day. Or Billy got all 3 of these runs legitimately on original Donkey Kong machines, but
Exhibit A - 000215
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 215/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

then Dwayne spent an incredible amount of time making 3 separate optimized Donkey Kong
tool assisted runs in MAME for Billy that are identical in length and score and movement
decisions in every possible facet of each score such that Billy wouldn't ever notice the
difference. Maybe Dwayne concocted the ultimate plan for revenge by swapping these tapes
and never calling it out, but waited for someone to randomly stumble upon extremely vague
evidence that you can only see for one frame on any given video so that Billy's scores would
be removed from Twin Galaxies and his reputation to be forever disgraced.

Or maybe Billy Mitchell just cheated because he wanted the Donkey Kong world record.

02-07-2018, 06:14 PM
Chaco Chicken

Hey folks, I’m anarchaeologist who is taking a break from the ancient world andpursuing an
anthropological look at a very specific demographic ofmodern culture (a primatologist might
make a gorilla pun given thedispute). I’m taking a deep dive into famous frauds,
cheats,charlatans, fakes, and liars. I’ve also been an arcade and Atari2600 video gamer since
my childhood so the dispute thread concerningDragster/Todd Rogers was of particular interest
to me. That spurredme to investigate the video game and e-sport venue as well.

Analyzing thecollected data, I’ve seen the emergence of a specific pattern ofdeceptive
behavior that exceeds simple mendacity. It seemsa certain class of fraud or cheater has to be
equally flamboyant andaggressive in their defense. For comparison take a look at Uri
Gellerthe “psychic”, Frank Dux of Bloodsport infamy, MLB player RyanBraun, and former
president Richard Nixon to name a few of the morefamous. They all follow a this distinct and
uncanny pattern ofsubsequent post-accusatory/post-revelatory dishonesty regardless ofthe
subject matter. Todd Rogers and Billy Mitchell are adhering tothis pattern.

I’ve watched theKing of Kong some years ago and became familiar with Billy Mitchell.I
recently observed several of Billy’s interviews both new and oldto try and gauge his overall
pattern of conduct.

The case against thescore:

1) All of Mitchell’savailable DK footage of his 1 million + scores is indisputably
MAMErendered as illustrated by Xelnia (That MAME constructslevels/screens differently
than the arcade PCB is or was presumablynot widely known). The lack of sound in available
footage supportsthis as well as earlier MAME often had out of sync sound and music.

2) There are noexisting documented live competition event records that indicateMitchell has
passed the threshold of 1 million points.

3) The means bywhich Mitchell’s 2010-Boomer’s score was tallied suggestsidiosyncratic

circumstances. As Wes Copeland commented earlier, whilecertainly being an excellent player,
Mitchell had not developed thetactical acumen necessary to exceed 1 million points.

4) Footage of the2010 score shows deceptive behavior in a false pcb switch and then
adeliberate effort to block the view of the score total. Furtherdetails of the event seem to vary
widely by the telling includingciting the possible but unclear presence of a deceased person in
Exhibit A - 000216
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 216/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

abrazen and odious attempt at an appeal to authority.

5) The appearance ofreferee verification of 2010 event by Todd Rogers and/or Morning
Dove(?). Roger’s participation here is largely unhelpful to Mitchell’soverall claims as Roger’s
numerous falsifications have now beenremoved and he has received a ban from Twin
Galaxies.

6) The claim,possibly corroborated, by a now disgraced TG referee that Mitchell’sscore was

inappropriately verified. This is the weakest point butdoes establish a consistency in the
deceptive behavior on Mitchell’spart.

Given Mitchell’spersonality, I expected he would display the double down effect andcontest
this dispute. He did not disappoint. But as frauds are wantto do he did not directly address the
evidence but attacked theaccusers. He sent at least one proxy here to obfuscate who issued
adefense with yet another appeal to authority. He has expressedcontempt for Twin Galaxies
and its members suggesting they aremotivated by envy.
Mitchell also arguedthat any mention of him positive or negative will benefit him in thelong
run which is a telling marker in my fraud conduct chain. Hewill avoid any specifics and attack
the weakest part of the disputebeing the mention of former referee Patrick Patterson as
lackingcredibility. He will continue to plead ignorance on technical details(this probably is
generally true; I suspect he deemed himself quiteclever in thinking that a VHS tape of MAME
rendered game would beindistinguishable from an arcade PCB)

If he follows thegeneral model, he will very likely, as Dadsglasses posited, divertblame to TG

for having “lost the originals” and decry negligenceas custodians of vital evidence and
suggest a conspiracy to defamehim. He will probably issue vague legal threats or more likely
have aproxy suggest he do so. Other proxies and loyalists will continue toobfuscate by
providing irrelevant or misleading information asevidence and they will begin character
assassination on membersquestioning the validity of Mitchell’s scores. He will point to allthe
his professed witnesses that saw the performance. If confrontedhe will continue to tout his
fame and question the motivations of TG.

Mitchell will notaccept fault or admit cheating under any circumstances. Once thelarger
community understands the evidence against and realizes thatit is irrefutable I anticipate a
Mitchell loyalist will take blamefor providing the wrong tapes or Robert Childs will imply
that hedeceived Mitchell by having him play a MAME rather than an arcadePCB.

I applaud TwinGalaxies for trying to improve the integrity of the scoreboard. Tothat end, with
the evidence presented and the conduct of Mitchell, aremoval of his score and a ban similar to
what Todd Rogers receivedwould be consistent and appropriate.

02-07-2018, 06:45 PM
starcrytas

I never noticed how MAME renders the screen compared to the Arcade machine for DK until
now.
Given the evidence presented, I vote yes on this dispute.

Exhibit A - 000217
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 217/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-07-2018, 06:57 PM
rotunda

I'm sorry? I must of missed that part...? Did i read that right... Billy/his supporters are saying
the tape(s) are now not his/not him playing? HAHA!!

Ok that's just ridiculous I'm sorry...

Anyone who's seen the KoK knows how sure he was of this tape. The moment he hands it
over to Doris Self (RIP) at the airport.. You can see he's pretty damn certain about the tape
and states "I've had this for all too long" or something a long those lines. Then tells Brian Kuh
to guard it with his life... I'm sorry but a tape that important isn't just going to get switched out
without notice.

Even if it did, Billy was questioned about the poor picture quality and tape displaying lines on
the left side of the screen at times by Walter Day. Billy clearly stated that the tape was a copy
so he was obviously aware of the tapes contents in great detail... or wait let me guess...
Someone duplicated that too, right?

I know the KoK was edited to make Billy look like a bad guy and all that but seriously... you
can't edit those parts. It's clear as day he knew what he had and that it was his performance.

This is looking like damage control at this stage. In fact to make up such excuses like these is
just making you look more guilty of cheating by using MAME. To me anyway.

Again, I like Billy but come on... seriously?

02-07-2018, 07:12 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

RTM REPLY - Not quite.

The first third of that tape was initially shown to a group of 20+ people and no one there
questioned anything about the performance. THe second third was shown the following night
in my cabin to a much smaller group including myself, Walter, one of the film crew (Ross or
Josh Tuttle, if I remember correctly) and several other trusted classic arcade gaming names in
the hobby in attendance that event.

We had to point out to Walter that the quality of the tape was unacceptable especially as it
reached certain points i the game, most notably the roll-over, and at that time he agreed with
us that the tape could not be accepted.

This is why I was so annoyed when he went against our recommendations and accepted the
score anyway, which I later removed.
Exhibit A - 000218
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 218/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

But don't just believe me...read it in Walter's own words here -

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...e-was-Accepted

02-07-2018, 07:13 PM
Chaco Chicken

Sorry about that previous post, I copied it from a document and didn't check the spaces so if
you choose to read it enjoy the challenge of parseing it out.

Let me add that I don't know Billy Mitchell and I have only vague feelings about him outside
of his cheating. He could be quite a decent person and very well liked. He probably has good
friends and has been a good friend. However many of the greatest cheats and frauds are very
decent people aside from their charlatanism. So that has no real bearing on the substance of
this dispute. If any of his close friends read these forums after a year or more of data
gathering and study, let me say continuing to defend this score in light of the evidence will
not benefit Billy Mitchell in the long run especially given the context of competitive gaming.

02-07-2018, 07:27 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - Not quite.

This is why I was so annoyed when he went against our recommendations and accepted the
score anyway, which I later removed.

But don't just believe me...read it in Walter's own words here -

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...e-was-Accepted

Thank you for the clarification RTM. I actually do remember now that it was you who
questioned the tape. Walter said so on the KoK while on the phone to Billy.

Did the original tape surface and was it seen by either yourself or someone at TG thus
allowing the score to be submitted? As that would show that he knew what he had on that
tape without any doubt.

Having an original which was seen by a TG referee and seen to be the same performance only
enforces that he knew what he had.

02-07-2018, 08:28 PM
RTM
Exhibit A - 000219
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 219/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Thank you for the clarification RTM. I actually do remember now that it was you who
questioned the tape. Walter said so on the KoK while on the phone to Billy.

Did the original tape surface and was it seen by either yourself or someone at TG thus
allowing the score to be submitted? As that would show that he knew what he had on that
tape without any doubt.

Having an original which was seen by a TG referee and seen to be the same performance only
enforces that he knew what he had.

RTM REPLY - it is my personal recollection that the original was indeed sent by Billy
several months after that ACAM event. There is a strong likelihood that it was even sent
directly to myself for viewing, or it was sent to Walter who forwarded it to me...it's been
awhile so I cannot be sure. However, no one back in the day would have thought to compare
the way the screens are drawn arcade-vs-MAME in viewing the tape.

02-07-2018, 08:29 PM
TWIN GALAXIES

Update:

While it is somewhat duplicative to include evidence that has already been presented, we
wanted to provide a sample of some of the work we are doing to confirm both the MAME and
Arcade rasterization assertions that have been previously made in this dispute thread.

We feel that working to specifically confirm this element is key since it sits as one of the
technical foundations of the dispute claim.

Below you will see footage of an original Donkey Kong arcade display output as well as a
Donkey Kong MAME Version 0.145 display output (we are in process looking at all MAME
profiles we feel could be relevant for internal reasons.)

This footage was shot with a 4K camera capable of capturing 120fps.

We shot each game twice. Once at 120fps and once at 60fps.

The results of our testing so far have been unilaterally confirming the assertions made
regarding MAME rasterization, regardless of MAME version used, as being distinct and
discernible from original Arcade rasterization in all instances.

(You can slowly drag the control bar maker to view frame-by-frame)

Exhibit A - 000220
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 220/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Donkey Kong Original Arcade 120fps Capture

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Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1324635 Copy

Exhibit A - 000221
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 221/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Donkey Kong Original Arcade 60fps Capture

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Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1324635 Copy

Exhibit A - 000222
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 222/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Donkey Kong MAME version 0.145 120fps Capture

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Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1324637 Copy

Exhibit A - 000223
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 223/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Donkey Kong MAME version 0.145 60fps Capture

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This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

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Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1324636 Copy

Exhibit A - 000224
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 224/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

We continue to investigate this dispute.

02-07-2018, 08:42 PM
The Christian Pac-Man

The following is what I posted on my facebook page.

check the link for images and videos.

"The first image is a comparison of a screenshot from a game that Hank Chien was
playing (left) and a screenshot of the barrel board being drawn in a later version of
MAME (right). The very top left ladder is the 8th one to be drawn. The 2nd ladder
from the left on the 2nd level (from the bottom) is the 11th one to be drawn. Notice in
Hank's game that the bottom ladder in question has already been drawn, but is also
partially obscured by an artifact of the monitor, notice the diagonal dark strip running
from the top left to the bottom right. The top left ladder has also been drawn but it
does not appear due to how the monitor is captured in connection with its scan
orientation and refresh rate.A recording of a direct feed to VHS doesn't detail how the
screen is drawn, no more than examining frames in MAME does. Such a recording
that is played back on a TV that has been placed on its side that is copied via
camcorder may capture any monitor artifacts displayed by the TV (ie. horizontal scroll
becomes vertical moving either right to left (if turned clockwise) or left to right (if
counter-clockwise).
The timer is drawn first, but as I have pointed out by simply recording the playback of
a youtube video with my phone (recording of a recording), the barrels at the top left
may indeed show up first. Things may appear in chunks when examining a 1/30th of
a sec frame capture, but the elements of the board are not drawn that way whether
by arcade OR MAME.
Since the frames of the actual youtube video shows both the barrels and the timer
appearing simultaneously, I was accused of creating a fake video.
That is complete and utter nonsense.

The first video is my phone recording (30fps) of a few seconds of Robbie Lakeman’s
1.23 million game. The next pic is a screen shot where the video is paused to show
the barrels, even though the timer does not appear. The timer IS indeed there, yet it
does not appear for the same reason the top left ladder did not appear in the
screenshot from Hank’s game.
It should also be noted that Donkey Kong has also been drawn in Robbie’s example,
yet you only see a portion as the rest is obscured by a similar dark strip running
diagonally from top left to bottom right.
The last video is the barrel board being drawn in slow motion.
If the recording device and playback source are similar, then one may detect a more
consistent synchronization in how each board is displayed as one examines it frame
by frame. The fact that not every frame sequence is the same illustrates less than
perfect consistency. The same is true of both arcade and MAME. I have played back
frames on MAME 106 and had different results.
Until the original recordings and accompanying footage of Billy’s gameplay are
examined, one should not be so hasty in a rush to judgement since the purported
evidence comes from uploaded recordings of 2nd or 3rd generation copies and this
doesn’t prove what some are saying that it does. No one to my knowledge has taken
the time to duplicate the process involved in the recording of Billy's games using
similar equipment and technology. This would involve recording a direct feed from an
original DK cabinet to VHS via converter. Another VHS copy would then have to be
made (at the very least) and then played back on a TV through a VCR and recorded
by a camcorder similar to that used by Dwayne Richard. The results of such a project
Exhibit A - 000225
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 225/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

would go far to either establishing or eliminating the disputed claim that such
gameplay could not be from an original machine.
Remember it is incumbent on those making claims of fraud or cheating to back up
those claims. These recent claims have been challenged and disputed, showing the
so-called evidence fails in supporting such claims.
Unless there is conclusive evidence forthcoming that Billy Mitchell or his associates
cheated or did what they are being accused of, I would suggest a measure of
restraint and decorum.
Thank you"

https://www.facebook.com/david.race....04596409565773

02-07-2018, 08:47 PM
The Christian Pac-Man
1 Attachment(s)

Here is a progression of 5 frames from MAME 194. If one were to go solely on this
kind of presentation, you would believe that the left ladders were drawn first in this
version of MAME, when they certainly are not. Check out my previous video where I
show MAME 135 drawing in slow motion. I have compared that with MAME 194 and
they draw the board in the same way.Attachment 49749

02-07-2018, 09:02 PM
The Christian Pac-Man

I would suggest duplicating this using the methods which are claimed to have been used for
Billy's games. This certainly would not involve a 4K piece of equipment filming at 120fps.
Most recorders of the time would only be capturing at 30 fps and the playback of vcrs would
be the same.

02-07-2018, 09:07 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Isn't that the reason no one back them could detect such video anomalies though? With the
ability to capture frames faster, you can see better how things where done. So TG using a
higher speed camera to capture a cabinets picture vs MAME picture would be way more
accurate wouldn't? I'm since that's how I would interpret it. If it's slower, it would mean more
things could be left out. I'm only bringing this up because I just happened to watch an animal
show and it was capturing a how fast a hummingbird's wings move in very high speed
cameras shows so much more than slower cameras. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I
understand your point for accuracy from the technology back in the day, but how does using a
more advanced camera be a negative?

02-07-2018, 09:34 PM
TWIN GALAXIES
2 Attachment(s)
Exhibit A - 000226
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 226/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Update:

Attached are complete frame-by-frame shot sequences of both Original Arcade and MAME
.145 versions of Donkey Kong.

They are both shot at 120fps equally under the same environmental conditions and camera.
The high speed capture ensures that no display information can be missed when recording
screens displaying 60fps or 59.94.

The results appears to confirm the rasterization differential between MAME and arcade
versions definitively.

Attachment 49750

Attachment 49751

02-07-2018, 09:45 PM
francoisadt

Question to those posting evidence: If a gamer player on a cabinet and do not know MAME is
inside, can such a person be held accountable? Nowadays one do get PCB with MAME
running with the ROMS so if one do not look carefully it can appear from the "side| as a
normal PCB?
In this case, what if the player did not know it was MAME inside? If someone else do provide
a cabinet for game play and present it as an original machine but is not? The person providing
the machine was not honest and not the gamer platying the game?

02-07-2018, 09:46 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

You are correct. Higher speed captures more information.

02-07-2018, 09:49 PM
Tessman

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

The first video is my phone recording (30fps) of a few seconds of Robbie Lakeman’s
1.23 million game. The next pic is a screen shot where the video is paused to show
the barrels, even though the timer does not appear. The timer IS Exhibit
indeed there, yet it
A - 000227
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 227/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

does not appear for the same reason the top left ladder did not appear in the
screenshot from Hank’s game...

Recordings at 30 FPS are unfortunately difficult to take seriously in an analysis.

If the playback is 60 FPS, or 59.94 FPS, then a 30 FPS recording of that output is skipping at
least 1 frame between it's own capture, and will often be skipping 2 frames. As such, 30 FPS
footage does not accurately represent the output of the source screen since it's literally
skipping frames of output.

In Twin Galaxies own post, they mention they are recording at 120 FPS, as to make sure none
of the source output data is lost or otherwise obscured.

02-07-2018, 09:57 PM
Snowflake

I think what the christain pacman is trying to imply, is that the video of the day would've been
lower speed, and that somehow that lower speed could make a recording of arcade appear to
be a recording of mame. I dont follow this logic one bit. I agree a lower quality video may
make it impossible to decipher mame from arcade, but I dont see how anyting in his analysis
explains how the recording of billy's arcade could possibly be an arcade recording that was
just made to appear to be mame from the copy of the copy

02-07-2018, 09:59 PM
thegamer1185

Just throwing this out there, I've got 2 VCRs in my house if anybody wants to use them for
some experiments? Or you could just go to salvation army and buy one.

02-07-2018, 10:01 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

I would think it's on the player more than anything. I would not call it cheating on the player
at all, but it is solely on the player to know what they are playing. That's my opinion. If
someone says the safety is on and hands you a gun and you pull the trigger and it fires, they
aren't blaming the guy who said the safety was on. I wouldn't call the person a cheater if they
truly didn't know, but they could have had someone they knew/trusted to double check.

02-07-2018, 10:03 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Exhibit A - 000228
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 228/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I am just happy that some of the people supporting Billy are bringing their arguments against
the evidence here.

02-07-2018, 10:07 PM
Tessman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I think you are correct about Christian PacMans assertion.

What I'm getting from his post is that VHS recording would be of a lower quality and of a
lower frame rate. Working off of that idea...

Someone more intimate with the tech can probably correct me if I'm wrong here, but it is my
understanding that NTSC VHS records at 29.97 FPS, interlaced. While a 'whole' frame is
drawn only at the rate of 30 FPS, there is data on such a recording at the rate of 60 FPS. If
these are indeed true facts, then we could still analyze such video, and a recording at a 'real'
30 FPS does not represent an accurate reproduction of the kind of data collected by NTSC
VHS.

02-07-2018, 10:22 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

I think you are correct about Christian PacMans assertion.

What I'm getting from his post is that VHS recording would be of a lower quality and of a
lower frame rate. Working off of that idea...

Exhibit A - 000229
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 229/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I'd like to add to the VHS possibilities as well. There were also 3 types of recording you
could. LP (Long Play), EP (Extended Play), and SLP(Super Long Play). Each one extending
recording abilities at the price of reducing quality. I'd say read this for more exact details as it
would explain it better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS

02-07-2018, 10:22 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

I think you are correct about Christian PacMans assertion.

What I'm getting from his post is that VHS recording would be of a lower quality and of a
lower frame rate. Working off of that idea...

I'd like to add to the VHS possibilities as well. There were also 3 types of recording you could
do, LP (Long Play), EP (Extended Play), and SLP(Super Long Play). Each one extending
recording abilities at the price of reducing quality. I'd say read this for more exact details as it
would explain it better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS

02-08-2018, 01:44 AM
RomulusVonFlex

The video of billy standing in front of 2 tvs showing off his world records is definitely mame.
Did someone switch out the tapes before he put it in the VCR? That isn't third party or some
weird sourced video. That is Billy himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Until the original recordings and accompanying footage of Billy’s gameplay are
examined, one should not be so hasty in a rush to judgement since the purported
evidence comes from uploaded recordings of 2nd or 3rd generation copies and this
doesn’t prove what some are saying that it does. No one to my knowledge has taken
the time to duplicate the process involved in the recording of Billy's games using
similar equipment and technology. This would involve recording a direct feed from an
original DK cabinet to VHS via converter. Another VHS copy would then have to be
made (at the very least) and then played back on a TV through a VCR and recorded
by a camcorder similar to that used by Dwayne Richard. The results of such a project
would go far to either establishing or eliminating the disputed claim that such
gameplay could not be from an original machine.
Remember it is incumbent on those making claims of fraud or cheating to back up
Exhibit A - 000230
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 230/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

those claims. These recent claims have been challenged and disputed, showing the
so-called evidence fails in supporting such claims.
Unless there is conclusive evidence forthcoming that Billy Mitchell or his associates
cheated or did what they are being accused of, I would suggest a measure of
restraint and decorum.
Thank you"

https://www.facebook.com/david.race....04596409565773

02-08-2018, 02:40 AM
J.C. Harrist

Billy has already acknowledged that the tapes presented as evidence in this dispute are
MAME.

At 39:27 of this video of yesterdays show , Billy states :

"There are MAME world records. There is Donkey Kong MAME world records. OK? And
the film footage that he has... that Jeremy has.... shows MAME play."

https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=2367

02-08-2018, 02:48 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

RTM REPLY - The answer should be a yes as there was an unrelated precedent to this
situation that should be applied unilaterally to all such scenarios involved where the gamer
"does not know" something about the game they are playing on for TG submission.

For a good 2+ years at ACAM the "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" arcade original,
unbeknownst to players, allowed for one (1) single additional man to be awarded over the
course of the game...if memory serves, 16 vs 15.

This attribute was not initially noticed by players until about 2 years later when multiple
records and personal bests had been logged into the TG database. Upon discovery, all these
scores were summarily removed thus allowing interested gamers to "re-game" under the
proper settings.

Exhibit A - 000231
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 231/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Using this scenario, it could be applied that the onus is on the player to make sure that they
are playing on the proper settings before beginning their performance for the purpose of
recording/submission for TG. Same would apply towards games with established boardsets
for that title such as "Robotron".

Remember, Steve WIebe's very first contact of TG announcing a new WR on DK resulted in

the discovery that he had been playing on 6+1 settings. I never saw that performance but
Steve himself revealed this when he contacted me at my job back in the day to announce his
new score. When I explained the proper settings were 3+1 he was disappointed but said that
he would try again...and as history has shown, he did and he delivered albeit on a DDK board
set which was not known to me at the time.

So...if a DK player starts recording in an arcade for the purpose of a WR submission to TG,
and the inside of the game is MAME, onus of responsibility is on the player. Just as, for
example, if a player starts playing one of those old laser disc games and unbeknownst to them
it is not an original laser disc playing but rather a computer emulator program.

02-08-2018, 04:19 AM
The Christian Pac-Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

Recordings at 30 FPS are unfortunately difficult to take seriously in an analysis.

In Twin Galaxies own post, they mention they are recording at 120 FPS, as to make sure none
of the source output data is lost or otherwise obscured.

If you are going to analyze a 30fps video of another 30fps video then how does your logic
apply. You are kind of proving my point. The refresh rate of the DK monitor may be about
1/60th of a sec, but it still would have been recorded on a device running at 30fps.

02-08-2018, 04:24 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

I think what Tessman is getting at is the vertical syncs are unlikely to be aligned, so partial
frames of the source will be available and might be discerned by the interlacing effect
recorded. Far from ideal, but if you've only got a VHS tape to go on, that's the best hope
available.

02-08-2018, 04:27 AM
The Christian Pac-Man
Exhibit A - 000232
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 232/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

Recordings at 30 FPS are unfortunately difficult to take seriously in an analysis.

In Twin Galaxies own post, they mention they are recording at 120 FPS, as to make sure none
of the source output data is lost or otherwise obscured.

If you are going to analyze a 30fps video of another 30fps video then how does your logic
apply? You are kind of proving my point. The refresh rate of the DK monitor may be about
1/60th of a sec, but it still would have been recorded on a device running at 30fps.

02-08-2018, 04:37 AM
rotunda

Something I just noticed while i was watching random videos on YouTube...

These demos he does for various people on the perfect pac man score. In this video he's using
some sort of MAME multi cabinet and he is the one operating it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jDA5dq7GuI

I'm 99% sure in most of his demos of this perfect score he didn't sit there for hours working
up to lvl 255. I could be wrong but i doubt it...

This shows he's not quite as naive as he portrays to be when it comes to MAME. Even today
he acts like he knows next nothing about it when this video was shot in 2015 and again he's
clearly the operator. I believe he even said in that recent interview that he never used MAME
(can't be bothered to look for the exact quote, the presenter drives me absolutely nuts!) Well
clearly he has.

02-08-2018, 04:48 AM
gavv

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

30 frame-per-second VHS is 60 field-per-second. There isn't an inherent loss of all

information come from sn NTSC VHS camera shooting or VHS recording of a
monitor/source.

02-08-2018, 04:52 AM
The Christian Pac-Man

Sorry for duplicate post.

Exhibit A - 000233
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 233/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-08-2018, 04:56 AM
The Christian Pac-Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavv

30 frame-per-second VHS is 60 field-per-second. There isn't an inherent loss of all
information come from sn NTSC VHS camera shooting or VHS recording of a
monitor/source.

You still only have 30 frames for analysis.

02-08-2018, 04:58 AM
DadsGlasses

What are the chances that “missed or dropped data” caused by conflicting frame rate
recordings would possibly cause Arcade to build screens EXACTLY like MAME does? That
probability seems far lower than it actually being a MAME recording.

02-08-2018, 05:09 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

You still only have 30 frames for analysis.

The VHS isn't taking a snapshot of one frame and then spreading it across two half-frames.
Each half-frame is going to represent a different frame in the original 60Hz (probably two due
to unsynchronised behaviours).

02-08-2018, 05:18 AM
Chaco Chicken

Divert blame to TG for having "lost the originals" and decry negligence upon the custodians
of vital evidence (as part of a conspiracy to defame him...wait for that).

Other proxies or loyalists will continue to obfuscate by providing irrelevant or misleading

information as evidence.

This is sticking to the script.

02-08-2018, 05:38 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

This is what I'm not really understanding from the post. @The Christian Pac-Man are you
saying that the lower frame rate could result in a change (perceived or actual) with how the
screen renders at the beginning. I have to agree with DadsGlasses here that it seems unlikely
Exhibit A - 000234
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 234/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

that frame rate would change programming, but maybe I'm missing something here. Could
you please elaborate?

02-08-2018, 05:42 AM
Riatoju

I just want to say, I'm adding this video to contribute to the body of evidence.

This video is a podcast I did with Triforce last night offering his opinions about the overall
dispute. What's more important is his message at the end asking via proxy for the community
to make a plea bargain with certain individuals or face the consequences. It is a long podcast
but I encourage everyone to listen to the whole thing or someone to summarize it. I'd break it
down into sections but I'm on my way to work.

Why is this important is because of the message at the end. More importantly many of you
might not know this but Triforce and Billy are brothers from another mother.

In this podcast he brings up the question of if the tapes leaked are a fabrication, about how
Dwayne Richards went to Richie Knucklez about making fabricated game performances
using MAME. He mentions how if Billy played on a MAME machine but didn't know how
could that be cheating. Could this be a possible window into what to expect? Also the
message at the end... I feel that's the most important part.

Now I just want to point out, I'm just the messenger, I wasn't asked to post this here by
Triforce but by a few other friends crucial to this investigation on both sides who suggested I
post it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T8uBcyQ5-Rk

02-08-2018, 05:46 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

I am interested to hear David’s response to this as well. This seems more like distraction than
actual evidence?

02-08-2018, 06:15 AM
homerwannabee

Here's the thing though. The 30 frames captured look exactly like MAME. Now if you were
to multiply that out 116 boards then the 30 FPS is going to capture every single possible
board drawing during transition stages. So far all the captured tranistion frames look exactly
like MAME instead of Arcade.

02-08-2018, 06:27 AM
Chaco Chicken
Exhibit A - 000235
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 235/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

What's more important is his message at the end asking via proxy for the community to make
a plea bargain with certain individuals or face the consequences.

Why is this important is because of the message at the end. More importantly many of you
might not know this but Triforce and Billy are brothers from another mother.

Proxy begins character assassination. The conspiracy to defame Mitchell begins to take shape.
Floating possibility of loyalist taking blame and Mitchell pleading ignorance to the
circumstances.
All this in under 24 hours. I couldn't have written a better version of this if I tried.

02-08-2018, 06:31 AM
DadsGlasses

Im sorry Hector. There is nothing of value here. TriForce makes a “plea” at the end basically
asking for Twin Galaxies to leave his friends alone. His claim that Jace promised a “clean
slate” does not mean that @Jace Hall agreed to keep bogus scores in the database. Each score
is being treated independently and both sides are being given a chance to present evidence.
There is no “Twin Gate Conspiracy”.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I just want to say, I'm adding this video to contribute to the body of evidence.

Why is this important is because of the message at the end. More importantly many of you
might not know this but Triforce and Billy are brothers from another mother.

Now I just want to point out, I'm just the messenger, I wasn't asked to post this here by
Triforce but by a few other friends crucial to this investigation on both sides who suggested I
post it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T8uBcyQ5-Rk
Exhibit A - 000236
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 236/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-08-2018, 06:34 AM
DadsGlasses

@TWIN GALAXIES thanks for the great updates. I really appreciate how this dispute is
being handled.

It appears Billy is trying to claim that the original tapes will vindicate him and that Twin
Galaxies has the tapes. This appears to be the “Ron Corcoran lost the tapes defense”.

Can you confirm at this time whether or not Twin Galaxies is in possession of the tape in
question?

Thanks again for all of your efforts.

02-08-2018, 06:34 AM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
Sorry just trying to make sens of the missing tape explanation

Sorry just trying to make sens of the missing tape explanation and will the missing tape ever
surface , that a pun :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLmUJCCKBTk
Attachment 49773

02-08-2018, 06:39 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

I think you missed the threat of a "nuclear bomb being dropped" by Richie Knucklez and
Billy's camp, don't you that matters? The message I got was back or be destroyed.

02-08-2018, 06:43 AM
Riatoju

Basically it was a message to the Donkey Kong community that they should retract this
dispute or face the dead hand.

02-08-2018, 06:45 AM
DadsGlasses

No. Of course that doesn’t matter. Not one bit. Threats from outside sources make zero
difference in this dispute. These appear to be more attempts to distract from the facts.

One dispute at a time. One score at a time. Evidence based dispute system will help continue
to bring integrity to the scoreboard. Anyone that doesn’t want integrity in the scoreboard
Exhibit A - 000237
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 237/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

should leave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I think you missed the threat of a "nuclear bomb being dropped" by Richie Knucklez and
Billy's camp, don't you that matters? The message I got was back or be destroyed.

02-08-2018, 06:51 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Basically it was a message to the Donkey Kong community that they should retract this
dispute or face the dead hand.

If they have some bombshell information they need to release it. It doesn't matter how this
dispute turns out. They need to come out with their "dead hand" information. Ask triforce
why billy was standing in front of two tvs showing off his world records that were mame
rendered games. Did someone switch out the VHS tapes for fakes before billy put them in the
VCR?

02-08-2018, 06:52 AM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Basically it was a message to the Donkey Kong community that they should retract this
dispute or face the dead hand.

I can't think of a better way to unite the DK community than to threaten them.

02-08-2018, 06:52 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I think you missed the threat of a "nuclear bomb being dropped" by Richie Knucklez and
Billy's camp, don't you that matters? The message I got was back or be destroyed.

Just a reminder, Joel West says he is going to post his evidence tonight. So in the last 24
hours, Billy's supporters are stating that the MAME rendering is doable by recording a
recording of a recording. That's fine. It's very easy to test. Someone just needs to record a
cabinet for a few minutes. Make a copy of that original, then make another copy of the copy.
Check to see if the image is rendered differently. There you go. They also talk about cam
corders. Go ahead and use the cam corder to make a video of the 3rd copied tape being played
on a TV. This would be a very easy and short process to resolve. Do the same for a MAME
play as well. I would test several types of CRT screens just to be thorough. See what the
results are. Someone also suggested testing the picture rendering of every single DK machine
you can find and see what it looks like. Exhibit A - 000238
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 238/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The real main defense they have is that Dwayne (I have no idea who this person is, they just
keep saying he is the one who is after Billy) somehow switched tapes at the Boomer event/or
doctored an entire play of Billy's hoping it would be caught by others instead of making the
copy and telling people something looks and they should check it out.

This is just summing up what has happened.

02-08-2018, 06:54 AM
Robert.F
Makes sens

threat you say Hector hmm.... So i guess we are at stage 2

The five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance

02-08-2018, 06:56 AM
Snowflake

Plea bargain? Really? Its too late to bargain AFTER you're already found guilty. The time to
come clean has passed. This is equivalent to someone the defendant interrupting the closing
arguments and asking for a plea bargain knowing full well he lost. way too late.

Not only was it mame, but deception has been established with numerous lies, one of the most
significant being mame enthusiast mitchel regularly uses mame yet goes out of his way to try
to pretend to be naive about it. Insults everyone invovled. Accuses of a witch hunt. Calls us
loers. Suggests ridiculous notions that would pretty much mean dwanye was a sorcerer
capable of some pretty powerful magic to pull off what team billy accusing him of. You dont
get to treat everyone like that and then after all the pathetic excuses fall apart ask to plea
bargain.

As for the threat, let that be seen for what it is, corruptoin and collusion. An attempt to
intimidate the vote. Remember, billy has been accused of intimidating votes before to even
get his score in the first place. While I was loathe to take Pattersons word for it, we're seeing
now the willingness to intimidate. The fact in\timidation tactics are such a quick go to alone
should be cause for a ban, and it further makes it likely to believe intimidation tactics were
used in the past making me think none of us his scores were real and he just intimidated TG
into accepting them.

Shows over.

02-08-2018, 06:57 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Just a reminder, Joel West says he is going to post his evidence tonight. So in the last 24
hours, Billy's supporters are stating that the MAME rendering is doable by recording a
recording of a recording. That's fine. It's very easy to test. Someone just needs to record a
cabinet for a few minutes. Make a copy of that original, then make another copy of the copy.
Check to see if the image is rendered differently. There you go. They also talk about cam
corders. Go ahead and use the cam corder to make a video of the 3rd copied tape being played
on a TV. This would be a very easy and short process to resolve. Do the same for a MAME
play as well. I would test several types of CRT screens just to be thorough. See what the
results are. Someone also suggested testing the picture rendering of every single A
Exhibit DK machine
- 000239
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 239/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

you can find and see what it looks like.

This is just summing up what has happened.

I would think @Jace Hall , @TWIN GALAXIES is already going to be doing this process
to see if it is actually a possibility. I don't understand how any recording of anything changes
how the image is rendered, but that is what they are suggesting. The way I understand
recording devices is exactly how it works in the videos of Billy's Boomer exhibit. The video
recorder records the image however it does, either frame by frame, skipping frames, top to
bottom, left to right, upside down, whatever. It does not alter any image or how they are
rendered just by being recorded. This is me and I could be wrong. It's like saying I recorded a
piece of paper my daughters colored with vertical lines but the recording device changes them
to horizontal line? Sorry for the sarcastic approach but this how I'm understanding this.

02-08-2018, 07:00 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

I can't think of a better way to unite the DK community than to threaten them.

not just the dk community but the rest of us.

i've mocked you guys and we've had our back and forth but I would never try to use
intimidation on you and im convinced none of you would use it on me. If team billy wants to
show its true colors all their doing is showing how they made the records in the old days.
Apparently its easier to use mame and intimidate others than it is to learn how to play. Way to
prove to the world what a bunch of skillless cheating colluding would be jury riggers they are

02-08-2018, 07:04 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

No. Of course that doesn’t matter. Not one bit. Threats from outside sources make zero
difference in this dispute. These appear to be more attempts to distract from the facts.

One dispute at a time. One score at a time. Evidence based dispute system will help continue
to bring integrity to the scoreboard. Anyone that doesn’t want integrity in the scoreboard
should leave.

I respect that and after our last interaction I did encourage people to come instead of using me
as a messager. They are here at my request, it may be a distraction but they need to
understand what's going on. Like Christian Pacman for example. I'm glad he could join us.
I'm trying to contribute in the best way possible, that's why I asked several key people if I
should post this, they felt it is worth noting.
Exhibit A - 000240
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 240/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-08-2018, 07:08 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Answer my question please. Why was Billy showing off his world record tapes that were
mame rendered donkey kong. Did someone switch out fake tapes for his real VHS tapes
before he put them in the VCR? He is standing there announcing he got another world record
with his lawyer friend and the games are obviously played on mame based on the board
loading. Ask his friends on facebook too.

02-08-2018, 07:08 AM
Ninglendo

I would just like to point out that the theory of Billy accidentally playing on a MAME cab has
a lot of flaws in it. At the end of all three runs in question he would of had to go through the
proper TG verification process. Meaning, he would of had to open up the cab to show the
board. I'm pretty sure even with his limited knowledge of boards and MAME that he could
tell the difference between a PCB and a PC. So that leaves us with two scenarios with this
theory. Either Billy did not go through any verification process on all three runs or he did and
after realizing it was MAME passed it off as an arcade score.

02-08-2018, 07:10 AM
DadsGlasses

Nevermind the drastic difference in sounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

02-08-2018, 07:10 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

I would just like to point out that the theory of Billy accidentally playing on a MAME cab has
a lot of flaws in it. At the end of all three runs in question he would of had to go through the
proper TG verification process. Meaning, he would of had to open up the cab to show the
Exhibit A - 000241
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 241/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

board. I'm pretty sure even with his limited knowledge of boards and MAME that he could
tell the difference between a PCB and a PC. So that leaves us with two scenarios with this
theory. Either Billy did not go through any verification process on all three runs or he did and
after realizing it was MAME passed it off as an arcade score.

Or he created the fake scores using mame. The only reason he hit over 1 million points was
the RNG from the smashes.

02-08-2018, 07:17 AM
DadsGlasses

On a side note, I am of the opinion that threats should be handled seriously. People making
threats and people spreading threats should stop or be removed.

Ive engaged in multiple disagreements here on TG. Disagreements happen. Threats are a
different story.

02-08-2018, 07:38 AM
Chaco Chicken

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

Nevermind the drastic difference in sounds.

This is important as it establishes that Mitchell couldn't unknowingly play a MAME game.
The sound and music would be out of sync. Removing sound from gameplay footage shows
knowledge of the difference.

02-08-2018, 07:43 AM
Scoops

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

"It's authenticity on a scale like never before," - Billy Mitchell

From The Mortgage Brookers 1,050200 score

http://www.mtv.com/news/1565744/donk...s-to-prove-it/

How can anyone seriously believe a word Mitchell says? Too many good people are making
themselves look ridiculous backing up such nonsense.

02-08-2018, 07:47 AM
RomulusVonFlex
Exhibit A - 000242
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 242/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoops

"It's authenticity on a scale like never before," - Billy Mitchell

From The Mortgage Brookers 1,050200 score

//www.mtv.com/news/1565744/donkey-kong-king-reclaims-top-score-and-hes-got-witnesses-
to-prove-it/

How can anyone seriously believe a word Mitchell says? Too many good people are making
themselves look ridiculous backing up such nonsense.

"Twin Galaxies senior referee Todd Rogers witnessed the session, securing it as an official
high score." That makes it way more credible.

02-08-2018, 08:20 AM
Mitch Mitchell

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

These demos he does for various people on the perfect pac man score. In this video he's using
some sort of MAME multi cabinet and he is the one operating it.

I'm 99% sure in most of his demos of this perfect score he didn't sit there for hours working
up to lvl 255. I could be wrong but i doubt it...

Here he is in this video running a seemingly save stated Pacman for his demonstration and
you'll notice HE is the tech at the 14:00 mark, after finished speaking he begins working
inside the back of the cabinet on the machine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNvVnG_cZk&t=3049s

02-08-2018, 08:34 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNvVnG_cZk&t=3049s

Exhibit A - 000243
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 243/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I can already see the back peddling now - "When he said he'd never played MAME he meant
he'd never played it for DK. Of course he would use it for Pac Man and other games"

02-08-2018, 08:42 AM
Muerto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNvVnG_cZk&t=3049s

Here is a thread from the KLOV forum explaining this: https://forums.arcade-

museum.com/sho...&highlight=255

Would anyone be interested in my Pac-Man Level 255 patch ? This patch modifies Pac-Man
to start at level 255. If this level is completed the next level (level 256) is the kill screen. Two
ROMs need to be patched, 6E and 6J. I have two versions of the patch, one which also
supports free play and one which does not.

This was playable at California Extreme in a cabinet provided by Jonathan (jkoolpe) with a
custom marquee and topper done by a former coworker of mine, Norm Badillo.

02-08-2018, 09:12 AM
The Evener

So it's come to this.

Whether directly in his own words or through the statements of emissaries, Billy Mitchell -
like some 1980s action flick villain - is promising to blow up the place and take everyone
with him. This, from a so-called champion. This is how he deals with adversity.

Got it.

And to the friends of Billy who are enabling and actively promoting this, or even standing
passively by - shame on you.

Nuclear bomb, TNT, pick your explosive.

Forget the last 35 years. Billy's goal of destroying the community (or trying to) will be his
lasting legacy.

Whatever happens, we will rebuild - and that will be ours.

02-08-2018, 09:37 AM
Chaco Chicken

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

So it's come to this.
Exhibit A - 000244
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 244/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Forget the last 35 years. Billy's goal of destroying the community (or trying to) will be his
lasting legacy.

Whatever happens, we will rebuild - and that will be ours.

A word of caution here. This is bait. The advantage of utilizing proxies is that one can deny
they speak for him and in turn accuse you of putting words into his mouth. He can state that
the guys over at TG are claiming I said I was going to ruin them and destroy the community.
He can then claim you are making up things about him.
Be wary of this tactic.

02-08-2018, 09:57 AM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

I'm not usually one for posting things like this, especially in a dispute thread but I will make
an exception here...

Why is all this recent behaviour starting to remind me of a certain someone...

Attachment 49775

02-08-2018, 09:59 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaco Chicken

Thanks for the caution - that was something I consciously considered in trying to formulate
my reaction. So yes, let me be more clear - people claiming to be conveying Billy's words -
time will tell if those purveyors of words were truthful or not.

02-08-2018, 10:11 AM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
IM sure you all seen this

I`m sure you all seen this im still stund....Attachment 49776 This Bill saying TG should have
the original copy... watch know one can find,,, how convenient for bill look at photo ã€€ and
this tape shows him playing live in the room not direct feed (so what Right) Bill has more to
Add with this room shot from 25 feet away you can zoom in on the screen and test if it mame
.... but until that tape where ever that is , is found billy sticking to his story and the would
goose chase starts .. more then enough explanation for the Billy camp
https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=38m44s Exhibit A - 000245
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 245/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-08-2018, 10:27 AM
Robert.F

And lets not forget the second monkey wrench thrown in to this thing.
Dwayne Richards has master minded a Mame direct feed tape matching Billy record from
boomers.
Dwayne has swap it before or at the hall of fame and this is the tape playing this being play at
the big bang,
This explains how Bill ended up standing next to a TV monitor showing a mame from direct
feed to a VCR.

Wow the plot thicken`s and we all been put into a holding pattern , well play Bill i must say

02-08-2018, 10:41 AM
CWK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Wow the plot thicken`s and we all been put into a holding pattern , well play Bill i must say

This is truly an amazing feet for Dwayne. I now have a new god. All hail to Lord Richards

02-08-2018, 10:42 AM
timmell
6 Attachment(s)

This is Billy Signing the VCR that played back his 1.062 score at the IVGHOF 2010 Big
Bang Event.Attachment 49777
Attachment 49778

Attachment 49780
Attachment 49781

Attachment 49782

02-08-2018, 10:47 AM
CWK

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

This is Billy Signing the VCR that played back his 1.062 score at the IVGHOF 2010 Big
Bang Event.Attachment 49777
Attachment 49778
Exhibit A - 000246
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 246/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Attachment 49780
Attachment 49781

Attachment 49782

I can see the dispair in Steve's eyes. Poor guy wondering why his fake score had to go but
Billy's could stay.

02-08-2018, 10:48 AM
CWK

Is that Steve Weibe in the last photo? The true star of the show

02-08-2018, 10:50 AM
zallard1

[QUOTE=timmell;948236]This is Billy Signing the VCR that played back his 1.062 score at
the IVGHOF 2010 Big Bang Event.

*insert pictures*/QUOTE]

Wow, looks like Billy watched his own footage after all. Somehow he seems pretty ok with
his videos being MAME generated here, so I don't believe you can say that Billy is unaware
that he was playing someone else's tapes at this point.

02-08-2018, 10:52 AM
Snowflake

Has anyone proven that really is billy mitchell? Maybe dwayne has a billy costume with
prosthetics and all. Dwayne did it. Dwayne Dwayne Dwayen

02-08-2018, 10:52 AM
The Evener

@timmell , thanks for the photos. One of them features a man with a camcorder - can anyone
identify who that might be?

02-08-2018, 10:54 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Did you even suspect at all when you recorded it that it was faked footage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

This is Billy Signing the VCR that played back his 1.062 score at the IVGHOF 2010 Big
Bang Event.Attachment 49777
Attachment 49778

Attachment 49780
Attachment 49781

Attachment 49782

Exhibit A - 000247
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 247/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-08-2018, 10:58 AM
CWK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Has anyone proven that really is billy mitchell? Maybe dwayne has a billy costume with
prosthetics and all. Dwayne did it. Dwayne Dwayne Dwayen

No way man. This is definitely a clone. Either Dwayne truly is god or there is government
conspiracy going on here

02-08-2018, 11:01 AM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Did you even suspect at all when you recorded it that it was faked footage?

I was fresh on the scene, I only knew how Consoles worked at the time. Why would I have
doubts, Todd said it was good.

02-08-2018, 11:03 AM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Attachment 49780

Yes, please buy me 1000 shares of SONY stock, as this "PlayStation thing" is going to
explode! (Your Welcome)

Attachment 49782
"Thank you TG refs for "overriding" the current DK arcade rules (at the time) of "live
performances only", and giving me the "special treatment" of a taped game instead, just for
me !!! "

..........

02-08-2018, 11:13 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

I was fresh on the scene, I only knew how Consoles worked at the time. Why would I have
doubts, Todd said it was good.

Am I correct in thinking that it is your footage?

Exhibit A - 000248
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 248/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-08-2018, 11:20 AM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Am I correct in thinking that it is your footage?

Yes and the footage him announcing his records was mine too. I was there to record for the
Twin Galaxies Podcast.

02-08-2018, 11:21 AM
voodoo_chilly
camcorder

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

@timmell, thanks for the photos. One of them features a man with a camcorder - can anyone
identify who that might be?

The guy with the camcorder (with the Dr. Pepper shirt) looks like David Race (The Christian
Pac Man)

02-08-2018, 11:28 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Yes and the footage him announcing his records was mine too. I was there to record for the
Twin Galaxies Podcast.

We can all assume you didn't edit it to include MAME on the screens correct?

02-08-2018, 11:31 AM
voodoo_chilly

The guy with his back to the camera appearing to be talking with Steve is "Crazy Kong
Fan"Ochs. I forget his first name at the moment, but he always goes by "Crazy Kong Fan" in
forums. I've seen him at events and he usually just takes photos, but maybe he videotaped
too? I dunno.

02-08-2018, 11:32 AM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

We can all assume you didn't edit it to include MAME on the screens correct?

No I did not alter the video or edit it. If that claim is ever made...... well we will leave it at
that. Here it evidence of the capture date of my video from the camcorder for the record. And
the frame by frame playback of the area in questions. In the original format.
Exhibit A - 000249
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 249/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://youtu.be/pDHSoe74TDc

02-08-2018, 11:36 AM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

We can all assume you didn't edit it to include MAME on the screens correct?

There is footage from another person in the audience that day.

https://youtu.be/b7YdkD9Ffvg

https://i.imgur.com/3iCh8AB.gif

02-08-2018, 11:53 AM
rotunda

That last gif... has anyone thought to check and see how DK jr loads in MAME vs real
hardware? Looks like hes used the same method to record that as well.

And yes that's Steve in the last photo. Poor guy should of been the one making the
speech/announcement.

02-08-2018, 11:54 AM
Robert.F
billy-mitchell-breaks-silence-about-donkey-kong

https://kotaku.com/billy-mitchell-br...-sc-1822815818

02-08-2018, 11:54 AM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

That last gif... has anyone thought to check and see how DK jr loads in MAME vs real
hardware? Looks like hes used the same method to record that as well.

And yes that's Steve in the last photo. Poor guy should of been the one making the
speech/announcement.

I slowed down the DK Jr on that video by Timmel and it looks like MAME as well

02-08-2018, 11:58 AM
rotunda

Has anyone done any side by side comparisons of DK jr like DK? I'm not familiar with how
DK jr loads on actual hardware but if that does prove to be dodgy as well then... what more is
there to say.

It's pretty obvious to me already whats going on here hence my vote.

Exhibit A - 000250
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 250/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-08-2018, 12:08 PM
DadsGlasses

Is it correct to assume, based on this quote, that Twin Galaxies is NOT in possession of the
tapes that Bully refers to?

Quote from Kotaku article, “Whether Bouvier, who passed away last year, was in the room or
not, former Twin Galaxies employees said to Kotaku that they have heard of the existence of a
video tape recording of Mitchell’s 2010 scores, but that no one can locate it.”

02-08-2018, 12:35 PM
Robert.F

Yup and billy has put all the focus on this tape that missing , but sure loves to tell the story of
what you would see if the tape found , if it even existences.. to watch makes no sens to give
TG a tape of a shot of the room but not a closeup of the screen ,, BUT BUT watch again
would make no sens the game was referee live ,,,,, BBB classic Triple B Bullcrap Baffles
Brains

02-08-2018, 02:09 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I feel the Triforce podcast I posted covers exactly how they plan to address this unless they
get some expert to come up with some thoery and decide not to answer it. Another interview
is coming soon. Keep an eye out.

02-08-2018, 02:13 PM
starcrytas

I was just about to ask if the DK Jr. record done by Billy was maybe a MAME score passed
off as an arcade score.
Another dispute for Billy's DK Jr. score???

02-08-2018, 02:25 PM
richard31337

I've been reading this thread for days. I voted near the beginning because of the clear
evidence. I have learned a lot of history here too, being reasonably new to Twin Galaxies in
the scheme of things.

It is MAME. The score should never have been entered into then International Score Board. I
vote valid dispute.

Thanks to all for their valuable input and evidence.

Exhibit A - 000251
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 251/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Fairly disgusted on a more personal note. Yes, Billy was an idol and legend of mine as with
many of the early gamers.

And Robert M, thank you for continuing to be involved in this and providing useful posts
throughout.

That is all.

Richard

02-08-2018, 02:38 PM
thegamer1185

So I've got to ask this question. Hopefully not all disputed scores that are removed will end in
a person being banned for life and all scores removed. @admin staff , @Jace Hall , what are
the details you examine when determining those factors? Todd had many scores found to be
impossible. Billy may have tried passing this score off as MAME. Just curious.

02-08-2018, 02:43 PM
starcrytas
1 Attachment(s)

This score is a MAME passed off as an Arcade score and seems to be spliced as well.

Attachment 49787

02-08-2018, 02:49 PM
maxim_recoil

It looks like an easy, "open and shut" case to me. From the "East Side Dave" interview:

Quote:

“The film footage that he has, that Jeremy has, shows MAME play,” Mitchell said. “Now,
I contend that if he gets the original tape, or he gets the original room shot, he will see that
what I say is true. I’m not disputing what he says. What I’m disputing is the fact that I want
him to have the original tape. And the fact of the matter is that that original footage was given
to Twin Galaxies, Twin Galaxies has it or should have it, and if it’s anywhere other than Twin
Galaxies, that’s a real problem.”

https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=39m33s

In post #679, this picture was posted:

https://i.imgur.com/cgphL3q.jpg

Billy Mitchell is looking at the TV which is displaying what he recently admitted is "MAME
play". Another picture in that same post even shows him signing the VCR that was playing
that "MAME play" tape. His reference to an "original tape" is irrelevant. He was clearly
presenting the above-pictured tape as being his gameplay, and he's now admitted it's from
MAME. What else is there to prove? He has confessed.

02-08-2018, 02:53 PM
rotunda
Exhibit A - 000252
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 252/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I agree.. there really isn't much else to say at this stage. It's as clear as can be.

02-08-2018, 02:55 PM
thegamer1185

I agree at this point. He admits it's MAME. Is he trying to say that if you don't have the
smoking gun, in this case, the original tape you can't 100% prove it? Someone close to Billy
needs to ask him why the original tape means anything.

02-08-2018, 03:00 PM
The Christian Pac-Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

It looks like an easy, "open and shut" case to me. From the "East Side Dave" interview:

https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=39m33s

In post #679, this picture was posted:

https://i.imgur.com/cgphL3q.jpg

Where did Billy Mitchell say that what he was playing at the Big Bang was a "MAME play"
tape?

02-08-2018, 03:09 PM
The Christian Pac-Man
1 Attachment(s)

I visited a local arcade after I got off work today and just took some videos with my
phone. Here is a screenshot from one showing all the ladders and part of the oil
barrel at the bottom.
I spoke with the owner and may be able to arrange a time within the next few days to
bring an old camcorder and my vcr and record some footage.
Attachment 49790

02-08-2018, 03:10 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Where did Billy Mitchell say that what he was playing at the Big Bang was a "MAME play"
tape?
Exhibit A - 000253
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 253/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In Billy's appearance on the podcast, he says: "And the film footage that he has, that
Jeremy has, shows MAME play." He is thus admitting that the Big Bang footage posted in
this thread, that he is presenting, is MAME.

Also, someone in this thread earlier claimed you were at that event with a camcorder. Do you
have additional footage from that day?

02-08-2018, 03:11 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Where did Billy Mitchell say that what he was playing at the Big Bang was a "MAME play"
tape?

It is mame...

02-08-2018, 03:11 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Where did Billy Mitchell say that what he was playing at the Big Bang was a "MAME play"
tape?

Again, with regard to the tape being displayed on that TV at the 2010 Big Bang IVGHOF
event, Jeremy said it was MAME play (and backed his assertion up with solid evidence). In
the recent East Side Dave interview, Billy Mitchell agreed with Jeremy:

“The film footage that he has, that Jeremy has, shows MAME play,” - Billy Mitchell

And reaffirmed his agreement with Jeremy when he said that he doesn't dispute Jeremy's
assertions:

"I’m not disputing what he says." - Billy Mitchell

02-08-2018, 03:16 PM
thegamer1185

In that East Side Dave Show that interviewed him Tuesday night.

02-08-2018, 04:10 PM
The Christian Pac-Man
9 Attachment(s)

These pictures are of VHS freeze frames. I recorded some of Billy's playback at the
Big Bang in 2010 using a Sony Handycam, digital 8mm, and then transferred it to a
VHS tape.
Attachment 49791Attachment 49792Attachment 49793Attachment 49794

Exhibit A - 000254
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 254/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Attachment 49795Attachment 49796

Attachment 49797Attachment 49798Attachment 49799

02-08-2018, 04:15 PM
The Evener

Would you consider uploading the game video to a site so it can be reviews and compared by
others in this dispute review?

02-08-2018, 04:29 PM
The Christian Pac-Man
1 Attachment(s)
Handycam used to record at the Big Bang 2010

This is the video camera I used when recording some of Billy's playback.
Attachment 49800

02-08-2018, 04:31 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Would you consider uploading the game video to a site so it can be reviews and compared by
others in this dispute review?

Agreed. It must be video

02-08-2018, 05:00 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voodoo_chilly

RTM REPLY - that's Fred Ochs.

Also, Billy said he never does MAME yet admits that some performances at events (threads
in pages 71 & 72) were MAME...that means he lied. The issue at hand is too fresh for him to
simply forget what he said.

You have to take whatever Billy says and believe what you want to. Remember how, after
KoK came out, his friends at the time (self included) defended his portrayal, yet shortly
thereafter he opened up the "King of Kong Arcade:" at some Florida-based airport
Exhibit A - 000255
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 255/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

terminal...using the very poster from KoK no less as the primary advertisement for it ? If the
portrayal was so incorrect, why do that at all, and second, what about permission to do so ?

Some of what he says is either not 100% accurate or is a lie. You have to judge for yourself
the veracity of some of his statements.

As for the location of the tapes. Blaming TG is simply a scape-goating. Some performances,
such as the 1.050M, were sent as copies to other TG staffers and technical advisors by Walter
to have several opinions as to the integrity of a performance. I doubt Walter sent out a master
tape in doing so, therefore TG (or Walter) must at least have possession of 1 or more tapes.
And I Have reason to believe that Dwayne has (or at least had) possession of 1 or even 2 of
the performances at some point, so they are around...just a matter of finding and collecting
them.

And I seriously doubt Dwayne "doctored" a received performance. Not even one from Steve
Wiebe. Dwayne may have his doubts and even gripes, but "doctoring" is a tactic that he
would never employ.

02-08-2018, 05:17 PM
DadsGlasses

Thabks for sharing these. When will you be uploading the full video?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

These pictures are of VHS freeze frames. I recorded some of Billy's playback at the
Big Bang in 2010 using a Sony Handycam, digital 8mm, and then transferred it to a
VHS tape.

02-08-2018, 05:47 PM
The Christian Pac-Man

https://www.facebook.com/david.race.9/videos/2303626392996108/

02-08-2018, 05:51 PM
The Christian Pac-Man

Here is how the screen is drawn in MAME 135. It also appears this is the same way
it is drawn in the latest version (194). If someone has the ability to do this with MAME
97, as that would have been the latest version of MAME at the time of Billy's
1,047,200 score, please do so.https://www.facebook.com/david.race.9/videos/2303626392996108/

02-08-2018, 05:52 PM
zallard1

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

https://www.facebook.com/david.race.9/videos/2303626392996108/
Exhibit A - 000256
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 256/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I think you meant to embed this, because it's not showing up in the forum (I can only see it if I
attempt to reply to this post). Here's the link David intended to have in his post here.

https://www.facebook.com/david.race....03626392996108

02-08-2018, 06:17 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Could you please outline and compare your findings with what was presented in Xelnia's
post? I'm unclear how we're supposed to interpret your video in light of the evidence
previously discussed.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...l=1#post946633

Also, do you have any footage of other screen transitions from your 2010 video?

02-08-2018, 10:32 PM
erockbrox

I have an interesting proposition.

When a player has a score in a track, usually they only have one score for that particular
track. When they beat their current score then the current score gets updated or replaced or
overwritten with the better score.

Maybe the computer keeps track of the older replaced scores, but they are not publicly visible.

This means that if there was any questions regarding the legitimacy of this very score. The
1,062,800 score that is. If Billy had beaten this particular score with a better score at one of
the Kong Offs or elsewhere legitimately, then the 1,062,800 score would have been replaced
on the scoreboard with the better score.

This means that even if the 1,062,800 were done in MAME, if he had beaten it with a better
score on an actual arcade then the score would have been overwritten from the public view.
While there would still be these "direct feed" videos still around, aka the Big Bang event,
nobody might have questioned them with such scrunchy that we are doing today.

People would just know him for his better score and not this 1,062,800 score. So it is
interesting because Billy had years to actually kind of "fix" this situation long ago. But
because he never beat this 1,062,800 score at a Kong Off or elsewhere it never got replaced
and was in the public's eye.

I think the moral of the lesson here is that... sure we might all mess up and make a poor
decision at some point in our lives, but if one ever does this and if there is a way to fix it later
then you probably want to fix it. All he had to do was legitimately beat his 1,062,800 score
and this whole thread may have been completely prevented.
Exhibit A - 000257
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 257/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

He also could have possibly contacted Twin Galaxies and request that his own score be
removed to prevent it from damaging his image.

I also want to talk a little bit about cheating in general. The main problem with cheating is
that when you do it, you are literally investing in it. When you are cheating then you are
nurturing that skill. Whatever you do, you usually try and get good at it. So when you are
cheating, all you are really doing is perfecting that skill. Essentially you are getting better and
better at cheating.

When you start cheating, you loose confidence in your own natural abilities.

It seems to me that Billy did this in the King of Kong movie, but then he did it again with this
score and the Donkey Kong jr score. Another problem is that when you cheat, it is hard to go
back to not cheating. It's like being on performance enhancing drugs. There are many
professional athletes who use performance enhancing drugs. Sometimes they get caught and
they are thrown out of the game. I think this is a similar comparison to Billy.

So basically Billy setting a Donkey Kong score on MAME is analogous to a Baseball player
doing steroids. Billy wanted a performance enhancement, so he did some MAME and got
messed up with it... as if it were a drug.

Just think how Billy must have felt when Steve was setting Donkey Kong records over the 1
million mark for real all while Billy is using MAME. Billy must have been shaking in his
boots the whole time. The thing that bothers me about Billy is the fact that he talks so much
smack. Sometimes people say that when someone is talking big like that, really on the inside
it's just that they are insecure with themselves.

The thing that also makes me suspicious about the double world record with Donkey Kong
and Donkey Kong Jr. is that isn't this really hard to do in a single day? I mean, one record is
hard enough... but two... in the same exact day? That means that Billy played for like 6 hours
on these machines at the minimum. I could believe two world records in the same week or
same month, but in the same day is questionable, especially on these games.

I honestly want to see him come forward and apologize before a conclusion is drawn upon
this matter. Anyone can mess up, but come one man. You have to fess up and apologize if you
are in the wrong. But knowing Billy, his own ego and personality won't allow him to make a
formal apology.

02-09-2018, 01:07 AM
TriForce
Correcting a misinterpreted message

This is to everyone involved or have interested in Donkey Kong dispute. @Hector post my
podcast in this thread last night where I shared my opinions with my community and team of
players on my stance about Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers. However his interpretation of my
opinions is off a bit. This is no slight at him but I do need to correct his interpretation of what
I said on my stream. So I'll make it straight forward here so no one can say I said A or B. It is
what I'm writing below.

...

There is no "THREAT" to anyone here about anything. What I know, I'm simply giving a
informative heads up to whats coming. The people involved, know who they are and they
Exhibit A - 000258
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 258/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

know what they've done. I honestly don't care as much as it sounds on my stream because it
is neither here or there. My only concern is what damage it will do to the scene as a whole
and is why I have some level of consideration to give out a warning. I've actually gone back
on the trust of those who told me what I know to be used as a atomic bomb. While a part of
me thinks is literately justice being served, the potential destruction is not worth it. There is a
simply choice, heed the warning or not. Simple.

However, what is coming is coming and where things land is where things will land. The
"suggestion" of, "back off or else" is a FALSE understanding of what I said. Far worst it has
nothing to do with @jac e. I don't know how that thought even came about. It's not what I
mean or said. I said, a bomb is going to go off and for those DK competitors who know what
they did, they need to go speak to @jac e confidentially and confess or something. I don't
really know what to tell you to do but do something and see if you can get a plea deal or
something because when the bomb goes off, it will be too late then. It may be too late now.
Oh well. I could careless about who wants to champion the dispute against Billy. Do what you
want to do. That's on you, I have no say in what you do or say in this dispute which is why I
stayed out of it.

I'm only here because of my opinions off this site were put here and are being misunderstood.
I stream all types of topics on my podcast as I share my thoughts with the community. None
of what stated in my podcast is to be used as evidence here. If I wanted it to be evidence, I
would simply submit it myself. I've learned in this scene that, whatever you know, you keep
to yourself unless you are willing to face anything you've said coming back to you. What I
said on the stream is what I said and is my opinion about the matter as I was sharing it with
my discord community. It has no place here. I wanted to make that it CRYSTAL CLEAR!
As my opinions was accidentally misinterpreted.

02-09-2018, 01:54 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Aren't you the one still defending Todd Rogers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriForce

...

There is no "THREAT" to anyone here about anything. What I know, I'm simply giving a
informative heads up to whats coming. The people involved, know who they are and they
know what they've done. I honestly don't care as much as it sounds on my stream because it
is neither here or there. My only concern is what damage it will do to the scene as a whole
and is why I have some level of consideration to give out a warning. I've actually gone back
on the trust of those who told me what I know to be used as a atomic bomb. While a part of
me thinks is literately justice being served, the potential destruction is not worth it. There is a
simply choice, heed the warning or not. Simple.

However, what is coming is coming and where things land is where things will land. The
Exhibit A - 000259
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 259/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

"suggestion" of, "back off or else" is a FALSE understanding of what I said. Far worst it has
nothing to do with @jac e. I don't know how that thought even came about. It's not what I
mean or said. I said, a bomb is going to go off and for those DK competitors who know what
they did, they need to go speak to @jac e confidentially and confess or something. I don't
really know what to tell you to do but do something and see if you can get a plea deal or
something because when the bomb goes off, it will be too late then. It may be too late now.
Oh well. I could careless about who wants to champion the dispute against Billy. Do what you
want to do. That's on you, I have no say in what you do or say in this dispute which is why I
stayed out of it.

02-09-2018, 02:10 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Attachment 49795Attachment 49796

Attachment 49797Attachment 49798Attachment 49799

Thank you for posting these. Your participation here is honored and appreciated.

If it is possible for you to post the source video as well as the complete VCR recording of the
video your made if the source that would be helpful as there are missed frames in your posted
VHS frame capture sequence.

Your current set seems to provide additional support of the assertion of a non-Original Arcade
rasterization (possibly MAME) which would make this a 3rd perspective posted on the Big
Bang performance producing similar results, but the missing frames in your sequence makes
it more challenging to definitively verify that.

Just for informational purposes:

Exhibit A - 000260
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 260/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

From the limited frames you provided, on the basis of our own internal testing with an
Original Donkey Kong arcade machine so far, we are able to discern these images were likely
not produced by an Original Arcade rasterization.

Your 3rd image provided contains information that helps make that determination (based on
our internal testing so far) as an Original Arcade Donkey Kong PCB does not ever render the
Donkey Kong character to the gameplay screen without also rendering the Oil Barrel in the
bottom left corner simultaneously. From our direct testing we have determined that their
moment of screen rasterization are always together in the Original Arcade version without
exception. So far, all of our testing indicates that they can never be separately depicted under
any capture conditions.

We have only been able to re-produce the separate Donkey Kong / Oil Barrel rasterization
you are showing in your VHS frame capture using MAME software emulation (WolfMAME
.193 and higher address this issue and render together like arcade.) However we continue to
test and investigate the matter further, as there is still a lot of ground to cover to be
comprehensive.

02-09-2018, 02:51 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

For informational purposes and with great simplification, I want to help people try to
understand the difference between the way the game "draws" into memory and the way the
memory is pushed to screen rasterizaton during the 1/60th of a second that it has to occur in.

The Donkey Kong game code "drawing" (which is a combination of a number of elements
that are technical involving things like video ram and etc.) can not get through its entire full
screen sequence within one frame of execution (1/60th of a second - technically there is an
alternating scanline thing but lets not worry about that.) This is why it takes the original
arcade machine several frames to construct the full screen and the entire Donkey Kong game
screen does not just instantly appear on frame 1.

This is why the Chris Gleed original arcade capture contains a minimum of 5 frames to get to
a complete DK game screen.

These frames are what are actually shown to the human eye and are what are captured during
video recording. That is why you will see large "chunks" of the gameplay screen appear over
the course of 5 frames, and not the visual depiction of your step-by-step walk through of the
game drawing those tiny pieces you see in your video.

In your step-by-step walktrough, you are giving the emulator far more time to process and
render to the screen each item as it steps through the ROM drawing code. It no longer has to
try to get through the entire screen display in 1/60th of a second. If it had to do that, it would
only get as far as it could through the video ram in 1/60th of a second and then have to render
the rest on the next pass.
Exhibit A - 000261
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 261/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In any case, using your step-thru method, virtually all of the MAME renderings might look
identical, and they should because they are all executing the same exact ROM drawing code
and all trying to emulate DK PCB. Since they have near infinite time to do the job, only
grotesque flaws in the rasterization emulation would ever show a difference between them
under those conditions.

I hope that made sense.

02-09-2018, 05:14 AM
Chaco Chicken

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriForce

I said, a bomb is going to go off and for those DK competitors who know what they did, they
need to go speak to @jace confidentially and confess or something.

I'm only here because of my opinions off this site were put here and are being misunderstood.
None of what stated in my podcast is to be used as evidence here. If I wanted it to be
evidence, I would simply submit it myself. I've learned in this scene that, whatever you know,
you keep to yourself unless you are willing to face anything you've said coming back to you.

~ What does this have to do with Billy Mitchell utilizing MAME to produce his high scores?
~ If you have some substantive issue with other scores on TG then you should create the
relevant disputes and provide evidence
~ "face anything you've said coming back to you" is a condition of co-existence with fellow
humans. I would take your own advice here.

02-09-2018, 05:25 AM
Snowflake

Interesting I accept @TriForce explanation how it wasnt actually blackmail but rather him
warning us about Richie's blackmail. I mean its a bit of a semantics game, but i'll give him
credit, he pulled it off.

One issue remains though. There's still the acknowledgement that he knows about wrong
doing, and is warning the wrong doers. What sort of person keep knowledge of wrong doing
covered up? We have right there an admission from @TriForce himself that when he knows
of wrong doing, rather then do the right thing and turn in the evidence he instead tries to warn
the wrong doer and help protect them. I have two take aways from this
1. I implore @TriForce to reveal his information. These people he's warning deserve no
warning. Let the alleged "bomb" drop. Let all cheaters be exposed.
2. I suggest everyone else take this into account when conisdering the reliablity of triforce's

Exhibit A - 000262
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 262/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

testimony. Why would I trust someone to vouch for Billy when he just got caught admitting to
trying to help and warn cheaters?

02-09-2018, 05:34 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

If there's something that I can understand from my years with TG and the personalities that
make headlines: marketing of persona. ;) Keep the persona in the spotlight regardless of
background story. Doesn't matter what spectrum of reason is behind the marketing exercise
(hot sauce [Billy], arcade/media exercise [Richie], team [not necessarily individual in
TriForce's case]), there's a need to be constantly near the top of the media to gain reap the
rewards of being a personality.

02-09-2018, 05:41 AM
DadsGlasses

“Keep the persona in the spotlight”. I couldn’t agree more. If anyone is looking for basic
motivation as to why Billy might use Mame to generate a fake high score, and why Walter
might support its acceptance into the database without proper adjudication, it’s right here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barthax

02-09-2018, 05:42 AM
Snowflake

Quote: Exhibit A - 000263

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 263/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Barthax

i agree. Another thing i've noticed though, is that with asymmetric goals, sometimes, both
sides in the argument can actually both get what they want. I'm fine with billy doing well with
hot sauce, richie having a succesful arcade, and triforce succeeding at whatever it is he does. I
wish no harm on them outisde of the game world. My only goal is that we have a fair place to
compete. If they want to play the bad guy to help their business and at the same time expose
what billy has done and destroy their own previous support of him, then we all win. They get
all the attention they want, and we get the clear scoreboard we want.

02-09-2018, 05:45 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Yes but what benefit does any personality get if they relinquish all the facts in one lump?
They're done & dusted for that media possibility. Slow release & milking the spotlight is the
most "rewarding".

02-09-2018, 05:57 AM
The Christian Pac-Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barthax

So has anyone taken the time analyze the tape(s) available to show what you are saying, or is
talking about something sufficient for proof?

02-09-2018, 06:04 AM
The Christian Pac-Man

I will try to upload some video after work tonight, or at the very least a link to the video since
the last time I tried posting here I had problems.

In the mean time this is something I recently posted on facebook.

Exhibit A - 000264
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 264/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I copied footage from my camcorder to my vcr and took pictures of stills as I went frame by
frame. I also transferred the same video to my computer through an A/V capture device. I also
went frame by frame on the finished video file. I found, as expected, that the frames displayed
differently than the VHS frames. Surprise!!

What I find is that the ones making these serious accusations don't think they have to do any
real work to support their claims. Not a one has attempted to reproduce a direct feed set up,
(the technology was readily available in 2005 when Billy scored 1,047,200), and record the
feed first through a monitor and then to an analog recording device, or directly to VHS.

Relying on how a direct feed displays through an A/V capture device on a computer and then
subsequently streamed online or uploaded to youtube as proof of how something must appear
through a different process is not being responsible or thorough in ones assessment. In other
words, some people are neglecting their due diligence.

Until one is willing to do this, this dispute simply falls into the category of " unfounded".

Thank you

02-09-2018, 06:07 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

So has anyone taken the time analyze the tape(s) available to show what you are saying, or is
talking about something sufficient for proof?

It seems like no one is opposed to testing this. In fact I think TG asked you to upload the
original footage that you took your screen shots from since the screens shots alone point to it
being MAME, but without the full footage, this can't be confirmed. Ostensibly, you feel the
footage you posted screen shots from is a valid example of what you are attempting to
illustrate, so allowing multiple parties to analyze your evidence would be the quickest route to
determining what issues with frame rates might exist, wouldn't you agree?

So if you could just upload the video you grabbed screenshots from speculation can likely be
put to rest unless there's something I'm missing.

02-09-2018, 06:08 AM
Blackflag82

just saw your previous post. Thanks!

looking forward to seeing the video

02-09-2018, 06:08 AM
datagod

The story so far

A score is being disputed. Thorough, well thought out evidence has been presented
Exhibit A -that shows
000265
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 265/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

MAME was used to record the game in question, instead of an original Donkey Kong PBC
with some sort of direct video capture as originally claimed.

To this date there has not been an official response from Billy Mitchell. He has had one or
two of his supporters try to provide their own evidence, but no statement from the man
himself. Instead it seems that the court of public opinion is being used on facebook and on
shock radio shows.

I know that scores are important and the integrity of the database is paramount, but what is
more troubling to me than a fake score is the way the close supporters have responded.
Personal attacks, yelling, screaming, foot stomping, tantrums, name calling. All in a
misguided effort to intimidate people either into recanting their beliefs of corruption or
shutting the hell up. They are already demanding apologies for when the true facts are made
known (as soon as a suitable talk radio show can be tracked down!). The hubris, the
arrogance, it is mind boggling.
@TriForce @Hector, whoever is reading. Tell Billy Mitchell that his friends are here waiting
for him to respond officially. Tell Billy to dump his advisers because they are making matters
10 times worse.

Tell him to make his case here in the dispute thread where it belongs. This has nothing to do
with friendship (at least in my case). This has to do with not insulting people's intelligence
any further.

02-09-2018, 06:08 AM
IAmNerdJock

Please provide a link to the video then instead of complaining. How can we review it if you
don't show us?

02-09-2018, 06:12 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

So has anyone taken the time analyze the tape(s) available to show what you are saying, or is
talking about something sufficient for proof?

Two points:
1) what tape? Billy mentions the tape is in the hands of TG. At that time "TG" typically meant
a lone referee whose personal possession was not monitored by an other official at TG (I was
one & FBX mentions earlier in this thread his own experience of one such tape).
2) You answer your own question quite eloquently in your following post. ;)

02-09-2018, 06:16 AM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriForce

I don't really know what to tell you to do but do something and see if you can get a plea deal
or something because when the bomb goes off, it will be too late then. It may be too late now.

Sorry to burst your bubble dude but I already know what's coming and it's next-level
desperate. Exhibit A - 000266
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 266/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

You're going to try to hit me and other players over using a third-party jump button on their
control panel. This is not against the rules either on TG or DKF. Robbie and I followed the
letter of the law in all of our officially submitted games, and we've been very transparent and
open about our use of non-Nintendo jump buttons. It is no well-guarded secret like has been
implied.

02-09-2018, 06:17 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

So has anyone taken the time analyze the tape(s) available to show what you are saying, or is
talking about something sufficient for proof?

You do realize MAME and the original PCB draw the game in almost completely different
ways? The video on youtube of Billy standing in front of 2 tv's showing off his world records
shows it was MAME. There aren't any conditions that would allow for the game to load in a
completely different looking way that looks exactly like a mame load. They don't load the
same objects in the same order. This thread is full of evidence showing the tape BILLY
HIMSELF showed off as his world record was mame rendered donkey kong.

02-09-2018, 06:18 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

Sorry to burst your bubble dude but I already know what's coming and it's next-level
desperate.

Oh wow, a third party jump button that would absolutely no affect on game play? That is what
the bombshell is supposed to be? That isn't even anything.

02-09-2018, 06:21 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Simply assuming that both scenarios MUST display in the exact same way is just being lazy,
and an example of having your mind made up and not willing to go the extra mile in order to
establish or eliminate options. Exhibit A - 000267
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 267/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This seems similar to the point you were making the other day, but never responded to when
asked about it (at least that I saw). So I'll re-ask the question-

Are you saying that taking a direct feed and making a vhs copy of it, and then playing that vhs
copy of it on a tv and then taking footage of that video will somehow change the rendering? I
mean I get that it might make it too low of quality to tell, but if it is good enough quality to
tell how would the rendering change in this process? This goes against my understanding of
these two processes (though I'll admit my understanding is limited), so please explain how
this process might cause that change. thanks

02-09-2018, 06:25 AM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

That's like saying a Neo Geo CD game will load faster if you record it. The loading time only
changes if you modify the recording. If its a real time playback of the record, nothing changes
the programming of the hardware or software.

02-09-2018, 06:53 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

The story so far

A score is being disputed. Thorough, well thought out evidence has been presented that shows
MAME was used to record the game in question, instead of an original Donkey Kong PBC
with some sort of direct video capture as originally claimed.

Tell him to make his case here in the dispute thread where it belongs. This has nothing to do
Exhibit A - 000268
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 268/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

with friendship (at least in my case). This has to do with not insulting people's intelligence
any further.

I've told them time is about to be up. If they got something that can discredit all the evidence
it's time that they encourage Billy to come forward and present it. Otherwise it's over.

02-09-2018, 06:58 AM
DadsGlasses

@The Christian PacMan are you trying to say that issues caused by recording like dropped
frames etc would somehow cause the boards to be drawn out of order? An order that just so
happens to match Mame 100%?

02-09-2018, 07:04 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

I think we both asked him this yesterday, and he decided to not answer either of us. I think the
silence implies straws are being grasped at and stalling is being employed...but I would love
an answer as to how the recording, copying, and re-recording of an item can change code
after it's removed from the computer or arcade.

02-09-2018, 07:15 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

He is ignoring all 3 of us because there is no answer. It is a big "what if" quantum mechanics
type thing. Well maybe in a 1 in 3 billion chance it happened to fall on those frames to look
like mame. This is what they are reaching for at this point. It is extreme denial.

02-09-2018, 07:18 AM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Did he even link us to the video? He said he was having trouble uploading it, so why couldn't
he use Youtube or Facebook?
Exhibit A - 000269
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 269/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-09-2018, 07:18 AM
DadsGlasses

Im interested in him clarifying. I can’t tell if he is just trying to distract, if he simply doesn’t
understand what he’s saying, or if I’m missing something.

As it stands now, his argument is actually helping his opposition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

02-09-2018, 07:22 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

i asked the same question back before he even came here and first posted on facebook. he was
aware of the flaws in his story before even coming here. He knows he cant decieve us, his
audience is for those that just need something to grasp on to.

02-09-2018, 07:50 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Exactly, even with missing frames it's not going to change how a game loads up and what
order things begin to appear as the game is loaded. This is getting almost funny the excuses
people are trying to use. The writing is on the wall at this point.

I'm sure missing frames on a tape would display ever so slightly different to seeing it in
person but NOT in which order objects appear and certainly not in an order that ironically
matches MAME perfectly.

On top of this add the no sound issue and all the other reasons that makeExhibit
this submission
A - 000270
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 270/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

incredibly fishy. Oh, and if you want to start going on about third party jump buttons
(seriously..?) how about how did Billy even get the score(s) accepted without showing the
PCB properly. I see the rules are very strict on this regarding DK scores here on TG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Did he even link us to the video? He said he was having trouble uploading it, so why couldn't
he use Youtube or Facebook?

How do you even upload videos to TG without an actual submission? Attachments are clearly
limited to:

Valid file extensions: bmp doc gif inp jpe jpeg jpg pdf png psd txt zip

Why would you not use YouTube like everyone else here has...

02-09-2018, 08:15 AM
TriForce
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

Sorry to burst your bubble dude but I already know what's coming and it's next-level
desperate.

*smh This is why I stay out of these things. The mentality in this community is just negative.
First, don't change or state that "I'm" going to do anything. No where did I say I was going to
do anything. I heard information about what is coming and I feel it can be destructive to the
scene as a whole so I gave a "HEADS UP". How did you get
Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

"You're going to try to hit me and other players over using a third-party jump button on
their control panel."

It's because you've got that "them vs. us" mentality. You completely ignored what I said
regarding my "involvement" in this whole thing. I don't know enough to be involved. I have
my opinion, if asked and no one asked me. You only know my personal opinion because it
was linked here. Outside of that I have nothing to add here. I don't have any input nor do I
personally care what you've done. It was a general heads up, I made that crystal clear in my
previous comment. My only concern is the health of Twin Galaxies Integrity and how it is
perceived by the public.

Thoughts like this are becoming common place on the internet...

Exhibit A - 000271
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 271/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Attachment 49811

Finally, don't involve my name. I don't involve yours. Don't write about me. I don't write
about you. None of you. If you have something to say about me you can contact me outside of
Twin Galaxies. I'm simply here to bring a new generation of players from my team to Twin
Galaxies and to help in whatever way I can to merge the ages. That's my agenda and I'm sure
you all have your own so let's keep them separated and stay out of each others way.
Comprehend what I said.

02-09-2018, 08:35 AM
expandedidea
Unrelated content.

I would like to say that this talk of "having a plea bargain" to avoid some mysterious "bombs"
being dropped is completely irrelevant to this thread. Consider making empty threats
somewhere besides an evidence discussion thread. All this serves to do is confuse spectators
on evidence and dilutes important conversation.

02-09-2018, 08:48 AM
TriForce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaco Chicken

My opinion outside of TG was put here and misinterpreted. I only commented to make clear it
up. I have no interest in posting any information to prosecute or defend in this dispute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I gave no testimony. Do not lie. I clearly stated that none of my opinions are to be used as
evidence. You clearly ignored that.

Exhibit A - 000272
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 272/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barthax

*smh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barthax

This right here is why I don't get involved. Information is shared with me, information that I
didn't ask for nor can I substantiate. If I can't substantiate it, its not proof or evidence. If it's
not proof or evidence you don't throw it in the pile. All that does is confuse or distract the
matter at hand. All it was, is what someone told me. I see how it can possibly be destructive
and decide to give my opinion on it, in my own community. I tell them hopefully they take
heed to the heads up. That is taken here and now is considered as blackmail? I wasn't
speaking to anyone here it was on my stream not in this thread. I gave my opinion on it away
from this site on my own podcast to my own team and discord community who asked me
what do I know about what's going on in TG. What I said there is brought here and
accidentally misinterpreted. I come in to clarify it and asked to I be kept out of it and my
opinion not be used as any sort of evidence for anything. Not to prosecute or defend. What
do I get in return? My character questioned and how I'm some how trying to market the
situation.

Yeah, this is why I don't get involved. Tell you all what. This is my last post to the matter in
this thread. I'm returning to what I'm doing, "away" from this dispute thread. Don't mention
me and you won't be further distracted from your task here. I will no longer post here to
acknowledge any of your ill conceived notions and thoughts of me.

02-09-2018, 08:54 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriForce

...

I gave no testimony. Do not lie. I clearly stated that none of my opinions are to be used as
evidence. You clearly ignored that.

*smh

Exhibit A - 000273
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 273/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

now you see, just because you go around blackmailing people and then say "dont you dare tell
anyone i blackmailed people" doesnt mean i have to obey that order. Sorry, what you're
saying will be used as evidence against you. You wanna go around threatenig people, you
dont get to then order people not to complain about your threats. Thanks for trying though.

02-09-2018, 09:00 AM
J.C. Harrist

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

The story so far

To this date there has not been an official response from Billy Mitchell. He has had one or
two of his supporters try to provide their own evidence, but no statement from the man
himself.

No official response?

Perhaps you missed this interview where Billy acknowledges that the tapes Jeremy have
SHOW MAME PLAY ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLxh9Yi5Dc&

02-09-2018, 09:15 AM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

No official response?
Perhaps you missed this interview where Billy acknowledges that the tapes Jeremy have
SHOW MAME PLAY ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLxh9Yi5Dc&

The Billy Response Team™ didn't post the video here (thankfully, what a piece of garbage).

On day one they should have sent an emmisary here to say "Hang on folks! Give us some
time to make a case!"

02-09-2018, 09:16 AM
pwnasaurus

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

No official response?

Perhaps you missed this interview where Billy acknowledges that the tapes Jeremy have
SHOW MAME PLAY ?
Exhibit A - 000274
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 274/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLxh9Yi5Dc&

Doesn't this acknowledgement pretty much end the dispute? If the score being disputed has
admission of being done in MAME, with no .inp submitted that TG is aware of to review,
doesn't this end the dispute of this particular score?

02-09-2018, 09:29 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnasaurus

all that proves is the score is fake. However Billy's continued lies among other things help
establish billy knew about it. Remember theres a difference between on an honest accident
and intentional cheating. There's no doubt the score is fake, its important though to conitue
the investigation and establish billy willfully cheated.

02-09-2018, 09:41 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriForce

My opinion outside of TG was put here and misinterpreted. I only commented to make clear it
up. I have no interest in posting any information to prosecute or defend in this dispute.

I gave no testimony. Do not lie. I clearly stated that none of my opinions are to be used as
evidence. You clearly ignored that.

*smh

situation.

Not sure why I quoted this, anyway. I will actually ask you a direct question since I am
curious. How does removing false/cheated/colluded scores end up being a negative on the
party removing them? Can you give one example in history, and I mean of all time, where
someone was caught cheating and people said that's not right we hate you for it?

P.S. All of the gaming community outside of Todd Rogers circle were happy with his removal
of scores.

02-09-2018, 10:05 AM
J.C. Harrist

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

The Billy Response Team™ didn't post the video here (thankfully, what a piece of garbage).

Was the person who posted the announcement of this interview and supplied the login
credentials a member of this "Billy Response Team"?

02-09-2018, 10:13 AM
pwnasaurus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Then I'm furthermore confused. If I'm not following correctly, please forgive me.

But this is what I gather so far....

A video recording of an .inp file was submitted as a WR on an arcade track, that WR was met
with live event coverage/praise. During that event the submitter was filmed standing in front
of the video recording presenting it to an audience that assumed they were viewing an arcade
WR. The score is entered into TG's db as a new arcade WR. On a recent show referenced
above, the arcade score that is the subject of this specific dispute was acknowledged to have
been done using MAME.

What's the next step in the investigation at this point for this particular score dispute?

02-09-2018, 10:38 AM
timmell

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000276
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 276/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by pwnasaurus

Then I'm furthermore confused. If I'm not following correctly, please forgive me.

But this is what I gather so far....

What's the next step in the investigation at this point for this particular score dispute?

Based on logic many think this is closed. But for the past few disputes, I feel that TG is
allowing disputes not to be "closed" is sorta like in the US court system. Where this might be
a time (or right now in this dispute) of discovery motion and a motion to suppress evidence.

These disputes themselves are discovery. The dispute thread is a vehicle to present all items
of evidence.
At this current time period this dispute might be in the time of a motion to suppress evidence.
To give defense or "the defense" time to challenge any of the evidence before it goes to
trial/judgement.

But there is no trial or jury. It is just the judgement of TG based on the evidence presented
here.

02-09-2018, 11:10 AM
RomulusVonFlex

TG is running their own tests on donkey kong arcade cabinets and mame as well. Apparently
Christian Pac Man without meaning to helped prove the dispute as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

But there is no trial or jury. It is just the judgement of TG based on the evidence presented
here.

Exhibit A - 000277
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 277/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-09-2018, 11:15 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

Was the person who posted the announcement of this interview and supplied the login
credentials a member of this "Billy Response Team"?

That would be MAXIMUMSTEVE J.C> after i posted it on FB i got this responses

(interesting he knew about the interview first :)
Steven KleisathThat info and post is from me Robert Felstein, and everyone else on
this thread. I presented initial info yesterday, and shared my thoughts and opinion to
Bill going forward, and on my post today. Everybody has the right to be entitled to
their own opinion, but John Salter... spare me your remark of the classic arcade
community as a "Joke". You are what you make of it. You have an arcade and have
attended events like Free Play Florida, where I met you for the first time, run by Brian
Jones. There are people like myself and many others that embrace friendship, fun,
and passionate competition of gaming. We are NOT a joke

02-09-2018, 11:25 AM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

Was the person who posted the announcement of this interview and supplied the login
credentials a member of this "Billy Response Team"?

I don't think so. I got the info from Steven Kleisath. I would say he is a supporter, but does
not appear to be on the inner circle. Anyway, in a regular court the accused is asked to stand
and make a statement or plea. In this case the accused fled the country.

02-09-2018, 11:32 AM
J.C. Harrist

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Ok, so we should disregard any other evidence presented by Steve Kleisath as well? Since he
isn't in the inner circle?

02-09-2018, 11:33 AM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

Ok, so we should disregard any other evidence presented by Steve Kleisath as well? Since he
isn't in the inner circle?
Exhibit A - 000278
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 278/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

That is weird. Why would you ask that? PM me if you want.

02-09-2018, 11:34 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

Ok, so we should disregard any other evidence presented by Steve Kleisath as well? Since he
isn't in the inner circle?

Any and all evidence in either direction is welcome I would assume. There has been no
evidence presented that supports Billy telling the truth.

02-09-2018, 11:42 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriForce

Your character was not questioned in any capacity by my words. I did not accuse you of
anything. I certainly don't understand why you quoted me to make any reference of blackmail.

I talk obliquely of people using their online persona to gain rewards and that maintenance of
that persona is something that needs to be nurtured. I do not infer what any individual's
reward is and I do not attempt to guess at what such a reward is. To expand on my analogy:
personas utilise typical soap opera style cliffhangers to keep the watchers returning. The only
mention I make of you directly is that you use your persona to support your team. Am I so
wrong in this? Anything else you make of my words is from your own generated
interpretation of my words - your response I quote seems to show you displaying a
misinterpretation of my words in exactly the same method you accuse others of
misinterpreting yourself.

I take from this that you wish to quash any expectation that your words are in any way for or

Exhibit A - 000279
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 279/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

against nor are they supportive of any argument that could be made for or against. I hope
that's what you wish to convey.

02-09-2018, 11:46 AM
J.C. Harrist

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

That is weird. Why would you ask that? PM me if you want.

You posted that Billy has made no official statement. I found that pretty weird.

02-09-2018, 12:00 PM
Blaque Pauldron

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barthax

Your character was not questioned in any capacity by my words. I did not accuse you of
anything. I certainly don't understand why you quoted me to make any reference of blackmail.

I take from this that you wish to quash any expectation that your words are in any way for or
against nor are they supportive of any argument that could be made for or against. I hope
that's what you wish to convey.

His last reply wasn't meant to you specifically. It was a general response to everyone that
responded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barthax

I don't think you have to hope here. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way.

02-09-2018, 12:05 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex Exhibit A - 000280

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 280/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

TG is running their own tests on donkey kong arcade cabinets and mame as well. Apparently
Christian Pac Man without meaning to helped prove the dispute as well.

That may be the current impression, but a full posting of the video could challenge our
understanding up to this point - that's why it's ideal if we can consider all existing video
evidence. Considering his proximity to the TVs displaying the DK and DK Jr tapes, I'm
grateful that Christian Pac Man preserved the tape and is willing to share through his
participation in this dispute review.

02-09-2018, 12:10 PM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaque Pauldron

His last reply wasn't meant to you specifically. It was a general response to everyone that
responded.

His text was not prefixed as such - it was a paragraph following my own quotation. For
someone highlighting misinterpretation problems, he leaves a wake of reasons for his word to
be misinterpreted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaque Pauldron

I don't think you have to hope here. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way.

Merely making my intentions clear: hope his message is received because other portions
(according to you as a third party who may just as easily be incorrectly interpreting both of
us) have been misinterpreted.

I envision this particular sub-subject to be in full circle - any further discussion on

misinterpretations will just be:
a) misinterpreted
b) something already answered above by someone

Feel free respond: I'm not suggesting you shouldn't, only that I probably won't. ;)

02-09-2018, 12:29 PM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Exhibit A - 000281
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 281/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

But there is no trial or jury. It is just the judgement of TG based on the evidence presented
here.

@timmell ... Did Billy reply back to you as of yet, in regard to your 2010 Big Bang video
you took of his own MAME display?

02-09-2018, 01:04 PM
Blaque Pauldron

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barthax

His text was not prefixed as such - it was a paragraph following my own quotation. For
someone highlighting misinterpretation problems, he leaves a wake of reasons for his word to
be misinterpreted.

I envision this particular sub-subject to be in full circle - any further discussion on

misinterpretations will just be:
a) misinterpreted
b) something already answered above by someone

Feel free respond: I'm not suggesting you shouldn't, only that I probably won't. ;)

I'm sitting right next to him. I told him what you post but he said he's not interested in posting
in this thread again. I just didn't want you two to get mixed up with what each other was
saying. He told me that his final response was not meant for you specifically it was general to
those who quoted him. "If it doesn't apply to them then it doesn't apply." I told him to write
that but the look he had on his face when I asked him was priceless. So I'm just doing him a
favor and conveying this to you. I asked him if I could clear that up with you and he said he
doesn't care, he's just posting in this thread again.

02-09-2018, 01:05 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

You posted that Billy has made no official statement. I found that pretty weird.

When you are arrested what the first question a layer ask you? "did you say anything" and the
first peace of advice the give you? "dont say anything and i mean anything" , That interview
Billy did was nuts! He acknowledge that mame was on a tape at the hall fame lol That like
saying in a murder investigation "I dont know the guy but i was at his house before he was
murder" lol

02-09-2018, 01:32 PM
datagod Exhibit A - 000282
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 282/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

You posted that Billy has made no official statement. I found that pretty weird.

OH! I meant to say he made of official statement here in the dispute thread. Sure, he said all
sorts of things on that radio show. I even transcribed it, remember? But that is still not his
official statement regarding the disputed score. Anything I wrote is just hearsay and likely has
typos. I acknowledge that. I did my best.

I am not defending him. That is his role. I have been yelling it to his support staff on
facebook, only to get called names and insulted in a lame attempt at intimidating me into
silence.

02-09-2018, 01:35 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

OH! I meant to say he made NO official statement here in the dispute thread.

...fixed a typo...

02-09-2018, 02:27 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaque Pauldron

Since you are sitting right next Triforce, could you ask him what his answer would be to my
question I posted directly to him and not indirectly at him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

P.S. All of the gaming community outside of Todd Rogers circle were happy with his removal
of scores.

02-09-2018, 02:31 PM
thegamer1185 Exhibit A - 000283
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 283/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I am not defending him. That is his role. I have been yelling it to his support staff on
facebook, only to get called names and insulted in a lame attempt at intimidating me into
silence.

Man, you too huh? I tried for days to get them to bring their arguments here but all I got was
how I assume this or that. It's all on facebook, I didn't assume anything. I simple kept telling
them there was all evidence pointing to this being MAME and no evidence what so ever to
the contrary, so of course I'm saying the score as of right now is not valid. Go to TG and tell
me/them/us how the evidence is wrong and we will gladly listen. Only a few have and I said it
earlier, thank you for bringing your evidence here.

02-09-2018, 03:14 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

@timmell... Did Billy reply back to you as of yet, in regard to your 2010 Big Bang video you
took of his own MAME display?

No I did not call him, Was busy today with 14 inches of snow and work. By now he got to
know what going on here. If he actually cared about TG and the leaderboard he would
participate by himself talking with TG directly, on the forum, or maybe someone here to have
someone post on his behalf. But, nope. Only about him and his lucky/media game.

Settle It on the Screen is open to do a interview where we will ask fair questions and be
respectful of him and his answers. And if they (Billy) don't reach out to us, then that is on
Billy. If he actually cares about his record he should respect and applaud the current admin at
TG for keeping the name going. Instead of his response on that show the other night. " TG
should have the tapes".

Settle has always have took the professional level to respecting guests, the scoreboard,the
scores (except a angry birds submission here or there, sorry) TG, and will always listen to the
other side.

So if he has any respect for TG, maybe he should ask to come on our show to prove his
worth, or at least respond in some type of officially capacity here on the website or directly
with TG . Cause last time I checked @Jace Hall and co. can only remove the scores. Not any
of us in this forum thread. So he should not be afraid of any of us.

Technically he could do nothing at all. But what he did on that other show was a disgrace to
TG and DKF regardless if his score is valid or not. With his accusation of Dwayne without
evidence.

To long of a answer, sorry Marc, No reply.

Exhibit A - 000284
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 284/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-09-2018, 03:18 PM
rotunda

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/em.../1100-6456696/

02-09-2018, 03:22 PM
The Christian Pac-Man

I posted a few minutes of video of Billy's 1,062,800 million point game. It was
recorded on an 8mm Sony Handycam. This tape (because it was a tape) was then
played back and fed into an A/V USB capture device and recorded as an MPG. I cut
the video down and saved it as an mp4 file.

Here is the link to the video:

https://www.facebook.com/david.race.9/videos/2307300509295363/

02-09-2018, 03:30 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Here is the link to the video:

https://www.facebook.com/david.race.9/videos/2307300509295363/

Can you please put this on YouTube so we can look at it frame by frame?

02-09-2018, 03:39 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/em.../1100-6456696/

Can anyone locate a cab that can do direct feed? Billy's whole argument here is that they
direct feed loads differently.

02-09-2018, 03:46 PM
DadsGlasses

Exhibit A - 000285
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 285/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

@xelnia provided direct feed video already from Chris Gleed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Can anyone locate a cab that can do direct feed? Billy's whole argument here is that they
direct feed loads differently.

02-09-2018, 03:53 PM
The Christian Pac-Man
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 49818

Here is a link to the pics on my facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/david.race....07359215956159

02-09-2018, 03:54 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Attachment 49818

Here is a link to the pics on my facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/david.race....07359215956159

Again, please put the video on YouTube so we can review it frame by frame

02-09-2018, 04:03 PM
timmell

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000286
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 286/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Can anyone locate a cab that can do direct feed? Billy's whole argument here is that they
direct feed loads differently.

So based on that "statement" of Billy's then he admits our video recordings from IVGHOF
2010( mine and everyone else angles)" look like MAME" because of the direct feed capture.

Once again at that time in 2010, direct capture wasn't allowed for verification. But he had a
privilege of friend referee, to jump in and verify when he needed them on call.

02-09-2018, 04:22 PM
IAmNerdJock

Is it that difficult to upload it to YouTube? Do you need instructions?

02-09-2018, 04:42 PM
Snowflake

I’m at the arcade and no time to search but there’s a free website where you can input s
Facebook video and it’ll download the video for you

02-09-2018, 04:43 PM
timmell
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Is it that difficult to upload it to YouTube? Do you need instructions?

Really not needed anymore as

Billy already admitted that the direct capture looks like MAME in that latest article. And now
we wait with his support why "direct capture will look like MAME.

Get the popcorn out! And be amazed. Never Surrender!Attachment 49822

02-09-2018, 05:06 PM
paramylodon

I downloaded the facebook video and uploaded it to youtube so people can view it frame by
frame. Just use "," and "." to advance and rewind frames.

https://youtu.be/4lpbM1Fr3Gs

02-09-2018, 05:09 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Here are consecutive screenshots for each of the last few barrel boards in Billy's
1,062,800 game. I already took pictures of individual VHS frames as they were
played back on the TV. Earlier I mentioned that there was a difference in the displays
between VHS playback and the A/V capture into my computer. You can actually see
more stuff in one that doesn't appear in the other. Go figure.
Exhibit A - 000287
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 287/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Attachment 49818

Here is a link to the pics on my facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/david.race....07359215956159

Just so I am following and am clear on things. From what I gathered, a cabinet doesn't do any
of the things in your photos. A cabinet draws the entire picture from the right side of the
screen to the left. Not in pieces or in groups. If my thinking is correct, none of these photos
are doing this. All of these would be displaying as MAME. I'm not trying to muddy the
waters, I'm just making I am having my facts straight. Only later versions of MAME could
render an image like the cabinet (I think) and those versions where well after this
performance. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

02-09-2018, 05:16 PM
thegamer1185
1 Attachment(s)

So at 3:10 in the youtube video, this is the image I screen captured from my computer. This is
displaying as MAME. So is the recording device the thing in question now causing this? I'm
asking questions everyone so chill out. This is what is being used as counter evidence, they
deserve a chance to explain it.

Attachment 49823

02-09-2018, 05:18 PM
thegamer1185

Further more I would also like to ask this question. While I can understand how certain
boards may "appear" to be drawn correctly, there should never be a single image captured like
I just captured it displaying as MAME, correct? Unless of course....yes I'm going to say
it....some splice together an actual cabinet performance with partial MAME performance to
allow this to even be possible.

02-09-2018, 05:30 PM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

It seems like this is displaying as MAME. We've already known this from the get go, but now
there are multiple videos of the same recording all in agreement. It seems that now, Billy has
admitted that this is looks like MAME, but for some reason the direct feed tech makes it
render like MAME even though it's not. He says he doesn't get it, but someone else is going to
explain it.

So now I think we're waiting for Billy's tech guy to explain to a bunch of people A
Exhibit why his
- 000288
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 288/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

direct feed displays like MAME (unexpected) while Gleed's direct feed displays like one
would expect

02-09-2018, 05:31 PM
Blackflag82

though, it's hard to keep track of what lie we're waiting on, so perhaps I'm off on that. 'm
going to go play some gameboy games and not look at this junk til tomorrow.

02-09-2018, 05:33 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

though, it's hard to keep track of what lie we're waiting on, so perhaps I'm off on that. 'm
going to go play some gameboy games and not look at this junk til tomorrow.

Quitter, ha

02-09-2018, 06:01 PM
FBX

So from what I'm understanding, the claim from camp Mitchell is that, even though it 'looks'
like MAME, it's still original hardware. But at the same time, he acknowledges the original
disputed record and footage shown is definitely MAME, but not his gameplay. I'm sorry but
this sounds like a volley of defenses so that any one person can pick what they want to
believe. Either he played on MAME, or he didn't. He can't have multiple defenses since the
question is binary in nature.

In any event, I've cast my vote. The facts of the case were presented, the evidence
overwhelming, and the defense too vague and fragmented. When you're innocent and know
you didn't cheat, the defense is easy. It's only when you're guilty that it becomes a side-show
of fragmented accusations and double premises.

02-09-2018, 06:39 PM
Riatoju

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/em.../1100-6456696/

via that article, I think we should discuss this...

Quote:

Mitchell claims that the arcade tape footage may also have a technical explanation for looking
like MAME. Mitchell says he has spoken with experts, who explained to him how the visual
look of the arcade footage could have been altered due to Mitchell's use of a direct feed--one
that takes its signal straight off the arcade's board rather than from the monitor.
"I talked to the company that manufactured it, and I asked, 'Why would the right look
different from the left?'" says Mitchell. "And he explained it to me--not that I understood.
And I said, 'Oh, you've got to explain it to these other guys.' So they're in the process of
quickly putting that together. [They said that because I was] obsessed with capturing the
screenplay this way, that's why I'm having this mess. Every single time, I recorded it that
way."
Exhibit A - 000289
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 289/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

AND

Quote:

"Rob was there when this happened," reiterates Mitchell about his 1.06M score. "The
technician from the arcade was there when this happened. They were the ones who set up
everything and set the board. There were Twin Galaxies people there. They set this up. There
were cameras set up. There was an event set up. There were crowds. There were people.
There was media. So all of those people are in on a big conspiracy? That's just stupid."

02-09-2018, 06:59 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

holly you sound like a Louisiana lawyer at trial :)

02-09-2018, 07:16 PM
thegamer1185

Lots of questions being asked to Billy except the direct one. Did you actually perform this
score? Not one person has asked him that direct question yet. Of course gamespot wants to
ask Billy questions and write an article. Everybody is getting in on the "most views" train.
****ing social media.

02-09-2018, 07:29 PM
bh_

As I mentioned earlier, the RNG is unusually kind to Billy in the 1,050,200 point WR game.
On barrel stages he had 105 blue barrel smashes and 38 flame smashes for a total of 78,500
points, a >99th percentile performance for the RNG.

At my request Jeremy Young provided me with transcripts of Wes Copeland's 1,170,500 and
Robbie Lakeman's 1,172,100. Over the entire game, Wes had 99 blue smashes and 85 flame
smashes for 91,000 points. This puts him in the 62nd percentile. Robbie made a paltry 95 blue
and 72 flame smashes for a measly 80,500 points. This is a 21st percentile RNG result. Tough
luck, Lakeman!

This is interesting because it shows that top players world record with bad RNG performance.
Billy knocked down the record with an amazing RNG. This is exactly the sort of thing you'd
expect to see with a segmented run. Taken with the video evidence of MAME usage it's
downright incriminating.

I'm slowly working on the 1,047,200 game, but I expect to see another super lucky RNG.
Does a full tape of the 1,062,800 exist? I'm not picking over video artifacts, so really any
copy would do.
Exhibit A - 000290
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 290/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-09-2018, 07:47 PM
starcrytas

I just realized that there were some strict Donkey Kong recording rules that had to be
followed. These were posted on 11/24/2009.
Not sure if it applies to this specific score, but here they are:
https://web.archive.org/web/20100107...x?c=19&id=1905

02-09-2018, 07:48 PM
Robert.F
freeze frame shows mame

i want to enter this in to advents,, I think this video of freeze frame will be the end of billy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHo43B6nu60

02-09-2018, 07:53 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by starcrytas

It does say in the rules "it may be disqualified." Even back then TG had grey areas easily
found. Can't really use this against Billy if you ask me. Good digging though. Oh, the whole
using a cabinet part can be though, haha.

02-09-2018, 07:57 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by bh_

I'm slowly working on the 1,047,200 game, but I expect to see another super lucky RNG.
Does a full tape of the 1,062,800 exist? I'm not picking over video artifacts, so really any
copy would do.
Exhibit A - 000291
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 291/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I can explain this...It's because of The Human Element™

02-09-2018, 07:59 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I can't see why Twin Galaxies didn't allow for a change of rules at the time to allow the direct
feed.

02-09-2018, 08:04 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I can't see why Twin Galaxies didn't allow for a change of rules at the time to allow the direct
feed.

Same reason they won't change the Duck Hunt rules for 2 Ducks. That's the way they are and
you better follow them. No matter how stupid or out dated they may be. Either way, still
waiting for someone to tell us that direct feed changes the way a TV monitor displays a video
game. I'm very interested in hearing from these experts Billy talked to about how this is even
possible. It's like they used a specifically designed direct capture device that is designed to
change the way a game is rendered and recorded. That is pretty much the only answer I would
accept if it really exists. I'm not slamming the door on that one possibility, but I'm not making
that bet for it either.

02-09-2018, 08:06 PM
LMDAVE

Those rules didn’t apply for live performances at that time, for live performances (on DK)
you needed two (2) TG refs present. He had Todd Rogers and his girl friend Morning Dove
(who was annointed as the second ref). That’s why the tape didn’t have to follow tbe normal
tape submission rules. The tape was just a secondary submission. But that tape ended up
revealing what We are seeing now. Poetic justice in a way.

02-09-2018, 08:35 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Here are consecutive screenshots for each of the last few barrel boards in Billy's
1,062,800 game. I already took pictures of individual VHS frames as they were
played back on the TV. Earlier I mentioned that there was a difference in the displays
between VHS playback and the A/V capture into my computer. You can actually see
more stuff in one that doesn't appear in the other. Go figure.
Exhibit A - 000292
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 292/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Thanks for sharing the video and the photos.

It may be moot as it now appears Billy is saying that the direct feed screened at the IVGHOF
looks like MAME, and now he's trying to figure out why, but would you be able to post a
copy of the video from the source tape? The posted video appears to suffer from a substantial
loss in quality (compression?) compared to even the photos you posted - people who are
clearly visible on the screen's reflection in the posted photos are square blotches in the video.

Attachment 49829

02-09-2018, 08:37 PM
Robert.F
thank you

thank you for clearing that up Dave :) (Dave got one first mill DK PCB score on new years
eve live whoo hoo :) ) ,, i seen a few post talking about how Billy didn't preform the ruler`s
AND Tg ignore the Submission Rules for DK ... This not true,,,,,,, because it would not be
necessary at a live event (hen`s the boomer THING) wittiness live by TG Referee :) and what
a chit storm phony pcb board changes started this all ,,,, no thanks to me for saving the
original video befor rob remove the sound 87 or 8 years ago

02-09-2018, 08:38 PM
Robert.F

He Who Lagts last lagts the loadest

02-09-2018, 08:56 PM
cavman

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

If the frames would load out of order wouldn't the rest of the game play load out of order once
converted not just that part of the video? Both would act the same of course as anyone knows,
@The christianpacman makes zero sense.

02-09-2018, 09:11 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

He Who Lagts last lagts the loadest

Go to bed.

02-09-2018, 09:17 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000293
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 293/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Go to bed.

picking on a handicap people hector how low can you go , imDislyxsic

02-09-2018, 09:17 PM
Robert.F

and so there

02-09-2018, 09:34 PM
bh_

The Sony Handycam used in ChristianPacman's video is a DCR-TRV120. This camera uses a
CCD sensor rather than a CMOS sensor. On a CCD sensor all pixels are recored at once
rather than being scanned in serial. CCD sensors are not susceptible to rolling shutter
artifacts. It's an NTSC camera, so it's recording at 29.97 FPS. CRT refresh rates are generally
60Hz. Since we can't see scan lines it should be possible to establish an upper bound on the
frame drop rate.

That said at this point I think hunting for video artifacts is beating a dead horse.

02-09-2018, 09:48 PM
JJT_Defender

2 Questions

1. Did Billy Mitchell do this Score on a Arcade Donkey Kong or was it MAME?
The Strong Physical Evidence shows that it was Done on MAME Check Yes for the Dispute

2. Did Billy Mitchell Actually play at Boomers Amusement Park when he set the Score?

In the Video of the Donkey Kong Play their should be Sounds of Many Arcade Games,
Music, People Talking, Announcements on the Speaker & Kids Playing at the Boomers
Amusement Park the Day Billy Mitchell Played?

If their is None of these Sounds on the Video of Billy Mitchell Arcade Donkey Kong Score of
1,062,800 then you can Check Yes Again for the Dispute

3. Is Billy Mitchell Capable of Scoring that high Yes Absolutely I have Watched &
Adjudicated Many Donkey Arcade Games both Live and Online Wes Copeland, Robbie
Lakeman, Mark Kiehl, etc.

02-09-2018, 09:52 PM
cavman

It is beating a dead horse but as in the post the claim is during conversion the frames load
differently, shouldn't they load differently during play as well? It's not like the transfer from
VHS to computer knows the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

I will try to upload some video after work tonight, or at the very least a link to the video since
the last time I tried posting here I had problems.
Exhibit A - 000294
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 294/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In the mean time this is something I recently posted on facebook.

I copied footage from my camcorder to my vcr and took pictures of stills as I went frame
by frame. I also transferred the same video to my computer through an A/V capture
device. I also went frame by frame on the finished video file. I found, as expected, that
the frames displayed differently than the VHS frames. Surprise!!

Until one is willing to do this, this dispute simply falls into the category of " unfounded".

Thank you

Obviously a last ditch attempt that has nothing.

The sad part to me is that guys like Billy and Todd didn't have to do this. They could have just
made appearances and said they don't have the time to practice to be at the top anymore. They
still would be in demand and be considered legends in video gaming.

02-09-2018, 10:10 PM
datagod

Not sure if this was posted here already, but here is an article about Billy Mitchell and the
dispute.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/em.../1100-6456696/

02-09-2018, 10:14 PM
JJT_Defender

Here is my Prediction I said this Last Year Billy Mitchell will Play more than Likely at the
Kong Off 6 http://www.arcadeexpo.com/kongoff/

Billy Mitchell Like's Being in the Spot Light & likes to do it in a Big Way He will Play
Donkey Kong Again it will be in the Next 3 to 6 months at a Special Event, a Gaming Expo
or a Live Feed from His Place or Online on a Show.

It Fresh News on the Internet.

He does own Arcade Games Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., Pac Man & Ms Pac Man

Because of Recent Events this Dispute and Other One he would like to Prove to everybody
that he can still Play it bothered him.
Exhibit A - 000295
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 295/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

http://www.arcadeexpo.com/
Get Connected Online
Facebook - www.facebook.com/arcadeexpo
Twitter - www.twitter.com/arcadeexpo
Instagram - www.instagram.com/arcadeexpo

02-09-2018, 10:25 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjt_defender

Here is my Prediction I said this Last Year Billy Mitchell will Play more than Likely at the
Kong Off 6 //www.arcadeexpo.com/kongoff/

It Fresh News on the Internet.

He does own Arcade Games Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., Pac Man & Ms Pac Man

Because of Recent Events this Dispute and Other One he would like to Prove to everybody
that he can still Play it bothered him.

//www.arcadeexpo.com/
Get Connected Online
Facebook - www.facebook.com/arcadeexpo
Twitter - www.twitter.com/arcadeexpo
Instagram - www.instagram.com/arcadeexpo

Maybe Richie can bring a Donkey Kong cab with MAME on it for him to play.

02-10-2018, 12:26 AM
Jace Hall
3 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Exhibit A - 000296
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 296/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Attachment 49818

Here is a link to the pics on my facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/david.race....07359215956159

Thank you for posting this as well as making the video available.

You are correct that your computer captured video shots are displaying a different sequence of
images from your VHS frames previously displayed. Here is an explanation as to how that
difference is possible:

Based on a quick comparative analysis, it has been determined that when you transferred your
Sony HandyCam footage to your VHS recorder, it had to be an analog transfer. While your
Sony HandyCam uses digital tape to store information, its output to a VCR is facilitated by its
digital to analog converter and routed through a traditional RCA type connector. You likely
used this to plug in to your VCR to record from your camera.

Fortunately, the information signal being sent down the RCA type connector to the VCR is
fully complete with all signal information. No frames are missed, because a "frame" in the
analog world is really a unit composition of two signal fields occurring at a specific rate and
is very different from a discrete digital video frame. So basically, unless there is hardware or
tape failure, an individual "frame" can't be "lost" in a continuous uninterrupted analog
electronic transfer (such as your VCR transfer.)

However, what can be lost in this process is discrete resolution fidelity and absolute timing
(compared to digital Hi8 tape) due to the limitations of the VHS format and recording
process. So the recording will appear less detailed, and can theoretically run faster or slower
than perfect due to the potential VCR motor speed having variance (or other things) - just like
an old record player.

So your VHS copy is very likely a faithful depiction of all the frames that your HandyCam
may have captured. Just blurrier. (This would also be the case with any direct feed to VCR
from a classic arcade machine that was designed to output to a standard CRT screen. All the
frames would be present in the RGB to NTSC converted signal and the VCR would record the
signal without issue.)

For your computer captured video shots, it is an entirely different matter.

If you used any kind of consumer level USB capture system to capture the analog signal
coming out of your camera, and did not instead use the direct DV OUT (digital output) of
your HandyCam to bring in a perfect digital copy of your camera footage, it is almost
guaranteed that your USB capture of the footage missed numerous frames of the analog
camera output.

This is because your USB capture device has to "look" at the incoming analog signal, and
convert it back to digital with an analog-to-digital converter so the computer can store it. The
way it does this is by first allowing the A/D converter to process the incoming NTSC signal
and render a digital frame/picture into memory, then taking a "snapshot" of the
picture/memory and storing it, then continuously repeating that process upon the
incoming/changing NTSC signal at whatever the capture rate was set to. Since an analog
signal does not have discrete digital frames to sync with (this is one reason why SMPTE
Exhibit A - 000297
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 297/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

timecode was invented) the A/D converter just has to snap away in its own right, essentially
creating its own unique discrete frames.

This would not seem to be a problem on the surface, however there are a couple of important
factors that impact the capture process -

1.) The framerate of the snapshots. I analyzed your original video and you captured at a
progressive rate of 29.97. Even though NTSC video signal is 29.97, your USB progressive
capture can not perfectly sync with every analog frame/field without SMPTE. Capturing an
interlaced signal using a progressive capture format at the same rate of the source video
without signal lock pretty much guarantees that your capture system missed frames in the
process. This gets into the whole 60hz, interlaced frame vs. progressive frame stuff that is too
lengthy to describe here. If you only have the ability to do analog capture with your capture
device, you may want to go back and recapture the video at 60fps if it supports that framerate.
This oversampling helps to ensure that it becomes nearly impossible for the A/D converter to
miss any incoming information. Unless you are using very high end equipment that carries a
SMPTE signal throughout all devices involved, the capture process of analog to digital
MUST be faster than, or identical to, the incoming source framerate to have any chance of a
complete grab (progressive capture is not the same as interlaced.)

2.) Compression. Lossy compression methods will optimize or reduce entire frame
compositions in order to keep file size down. A typical non-high end USB video capture
system will tend to utilize a lot of compression and be normally set for consumer level use
quality. If you did not override many of the default settings, this could be another place that
frame information might be altered or lost. Generally, proper video capture is sourced using
lossless compression methods or no compression at all to ensure that no information is lost in
the capture process.

At minimum, I would encourage you to recapture your footage into your computer using the
DV OUT of your camera. It is the best way to make sure you get an exact copy of what you
filmed into your computer digitally. That information could be very helpful in the dispute
evidence body should you choose to provide it.

Another indicator that your computer capture process likely missed frames that your VHS
capture might not have is that both your recent screenshot sequence and actual video (when
stepped through) are showing the complete rasterization of the pie factory as well as the rivet
board in many less discrete frames than it actually takes both MAME and Original Arcade
Donkey Kong to construct and send to the screen.

The example below shows the rivet board being completed in 2 frames in your video, which
we have confirmed is technically impossible for the game to do during normal operation in
MAME or Arcade, so frames seem to be demonstrably missing in your computer capture (see
below):
Attachment 49832Attachment 49833Attachment 49834

Hope that helps to explain why there can potentially be a difference in the comparison process
you are exploring.

For what it is worth, these types of technical issues are exactly why the TG investigative
group is using very high end professional equipment and processes to either confirm or
invalidate each technical aspect of the evidence assertions being made in this dispute case.
(120 fps, etc.) Nothing is being left to conjecture in regard to the overall technical parts of this
matter. The technical assertions being made about MAME, video tape recordings, and the
original Donkey Kong arcade machine rasterization behavior are quite explorable to absolute
Exhibit A - 000298
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 298/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

definitive certainty, which is what TG is comprehensively doing to its own level of

satisfaction.

Again, all of this is helpful and your participation in this discussion is appreciated.

02-10-2018, 04:34 AM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)

I agree with @timmell – Billy’s latest Gamespot article reiterates his concession that the
existing footage of his 1.062 million run does bear the hallmarks of a MAME performance.
Billy is now working with experts on direct-rig feeds to explain why an arcade performance
ultimately ended up like MAME. The most simple explanation in this case is, not surprisingly,
being overlooked. However, the more interesting technical question for me is understanding
how a DK Junior PCB is capable of providing a direct feed of a DK game, as captured by
Robert Childs in the moments after Billy achieved a DK world record.

Attachment 49849

There are some other elements in the Gamepost article I’d like to touch upon.

“Mitchell has two primary objectives at the moment. The first is getting original tapes of the
scores' direct feeds, which Twin Galaxies should have, according to Mitchell.”

This appears to be a dead end according to a post from then-TG referee OriginalPSP, who was
weighed in on a question about the belief that direct feeds were no longer permitted:

//www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/130764-A-rumor-about-Billy-Mitchell-and-the-DK-
record?p=704225&viewfull=1#post704225

Quote:

Originally Posted by OriginalPSP

The direct feed recording had NO bearing on verification of the score, which was done in
public and viewed in full by two referees, one of which also verified a live score for another
gamer on a Wii titles at the IVGHOF event. That recording only existed for Billy's
announcement. The score was verified live when it happened.

PSP added, “This is an amazing feat that deserves all the props it gets, and went through a
great deal of verification on our end involving many referees, not only including the two who
saw it live but also myself, David and several more.” This could be a reference to the secret
vote that occurred on the eve of the announcement.

There appears to be some "seeding" about the existence of additional video since PSP also
references the apparent existence of recorded footage “over Bill’s shoulder and, I understand,
some witness stuff on YouTube I just became aware of today and have not seen yet.”
However, in the very next post, Lmdave points out that the clips are simply the three Robert
Childs’ videos: “I would have thought this guy with the camera that walks up after DK Jr.
would have at least for a second pointed at the screen to see the score up there.”

02-10-2018, 07:26 AM
JJT_Defender

Exhibit A - 000299
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 299/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Here is a Video of Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong Last Few Minutes of Score of 1,050,200
with no Sound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbRN549NYuU
Questions
1. Is their Video of Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong Full Game Play and Score of 1,062,800 that
All Twin Galaxy Can See it?
2. Question if the DK Video Play Shows is in the Dark then Billy Never ever Played Live at
Boomers Amusement Park when he did this Score
Hopefully Their is Sound & Light in the Back Ground that shows Billy in Fact did Play at
Boomers Amusement Park if not it is False

3. Did Billy Mitchell Actually play at Boomers Amusement Park when he set the Score
1,062,800?

In the Video of the Donkey Kong Play their should be Sounds & Multi Color Lights of Many
Arcade Games, Music, People Talking, Announcements on the Speaker & Kids Playing at the
Boomers Amusement Park the Day Billy Mitchell Played?

If their is None of these Sounds on the Video of Billy Mitchell Arcade Donkey Kong Score of
1,062,800 then you can Check Yes Again for the Dispute

Plus their is Evidence that Shows that Billy's Donkey Kong Play was Played On MAME
Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator

02-10-2018, 07:28 AM
JJT_Defender

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbRN549NYuU

02-10-2018, 07:33 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjt_defender

3. Did Billy Mitchell Actually play at Boomers Amusement Park when he set the Score
1,062,800?

If their is None of these Sounds on the Video of Billy Mitchell Arcade Donkey Kong Score of
Exhibit A - 000300
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 300/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

1,062,800 then you can Check Yes Again for the Dispute

Plus their is Evidence that Shows that Billy's Donkey Kong Play was Played On MAME
Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator

All of that is here, all of that has been covered. Welcome back JTT!

02-10-2018, 07:42 AM
Riatoju
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Attachment 49849

There are some other elements in the Gamepost article I’d like to touch upon.

“Mitchell has two primary objectives at the moment. The first is getting original tapes of the
scores' direct feeds, which Twin Galaxies should have, according to Mitchell.”

This appears to be a dead end according to a post from then-TG referee OriginalPSP, who was
weighed in on a question about the belief that direct feeds were no longer permitted:

//www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/130764-A-rumor-about-Billy-Mitchell-and-the-DK-
record?p=704225&viewfull=1#post704225

PSP has made about a million posts on the subject matter from what I am aware, including an
article or two. If you feel any of that can contribute to this dispute I'd suggest taking a look at
what he said on Facebook. He seems to keep beating the deadhorse that Direct Feed was not
allowed per the rules when obviously Twin Galaxies made an exception and added it to the
rules. However does any of what he is talking about matters if he is not willing to participate
Exhibit A - 000301
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 301/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

in a discussion regarding the one person he has been harping about for years? He must not
have anything important to contribute if he isn't here. However, it's a footnote to this
discussion that might as well be noted. Let's not forget he is biased.

I'll let you guys take from this what you will and make your own decision. I could just be
looking at it through rose colored glasses.

Attachment 49858

02-10-2018, 08:19 AM
Riatoju

@The Evener The link is not working maybe this will help:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...1%23post704225

That PSP post is interesting because it seems like he had a different tone back then, I only
skimmed it, if you see his recent posts on other media from this week his tone is different. So
that post does contribute some interesting insight from before and after what I perceive as a
"grudge"

02-10-2018, 08:26 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

He seems to keep beating the deadhorse that Direct Feed was not allowed per the rules when
obviously Twin Galaxies made an exception and added it to the rules.

not so "obvious". I mean, it seems like a reasonable conclusion if you're assumption that was
TG was a fair organization. However, since it wasnt added to the rules and an exception was
made for billy in particular, the only thing "obvious" about all this is that Billy didnt have
follow the rules. Is it also "obvious" that the rules allowed you to play mame for arcade?

02-10-2018, 08:32 AM
thegamer1185

Am I the only one who only really cares about actual evidence and not what ANYONE who
may have seen/seen/believes Billy did these things? Evidence people. I can say right now big
foot is sitting on my couch and there are some people who would believe it, most wouldn't.
That's all these posts regarding what people have to say are. They do nothing but add
DRAMA to this thing. It fuels the side that already believes in Billy he did, and it fuels the
side that thinks he didn't do it. Evidence. Videos/pictures. For the love of god, please no more
posts of what people have said they saw. It does nothing. Literally, nothing. I thought TG was
going to handle these posts getting out of hand? Evidence. Again, I realize I'm not posting
evidence but I at least ask questions regarding the evidence in question. It's just making it
harder and longer (haha, weiner joke and I wasn't even trying) for people to actually find
evidence for or against this dispute.

By the way, Big Foot says "Hi."

02-10-2018, 08:38 AM
Riatoju

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000302
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 302/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

By the way, Big Foot says "Hi."

I look at this dispute this way, everything related to this story should be documented, every
angle explored. Many notable people felt PSP's testimony contributes to this dispute, but
clearly we see from his old posts and new posts he contradicts himself, this should be noted,
what is good is his story has been collaborated, but those in the future looking back on this
dispute need to know why did we need to have to collaborate his story with someone else.
Also this information will come in handy in the future as evidence for other disputes ect...

02-10-2018, 08:44 AM
Riatoju

Well everything needs to still be covered and touched upon, but right now what is vital to this
dispute is Billy providing the original tapes, as well as showing how this direct feed theory
could be the smoking gun that debunks the evidence claiming he played on MAME. As
someone who is on Billy's side I am a skeptic, I have spoken to many of the experts in the
community and they don't see this theory as being plausible or as a smoking gun. Also be
prepared, a huge distraction is incoming, however you're going to have to deal with it as not
everyone seems to understand the evidence which is clear as night and day if you are willing
to sit and study it.

02-10-2018, 08:44 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

It all depends on person/persons telling the stories. Right now, I would not believe a single
word from anyone backing Billy for a couple reasons.

1. He is the one being disputed. Therefore, some might say anything to prove he did this
score. I'm not saying all of them, but how could I possibly know.

2. Most of the people you are showing quotes from are already people who simply can't be
Exhibit A - 000303
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 303/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

trusted because of their past/what they have said, in this case contradicting stories.

3. The evidence right now is proving everything they are saying to be inaccurate.

I guess it was wrong of me to tell people to stop making posts from people have "said" may
have happened. There are so many versions of this story, all with varying details, it's
impossible to know who was right/wrong. Evidence in the shape of video/photos is all I can
really go off. Informational evidence such as what Jace has posted regarding video analysis is
also acceptable since it referring to the evidence. Again, apologizes for asking the posts of
peoples words to be stopped, that was wrong. Hope you understand where I'm coming from.

02-10-2018, 08:45 AM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

@The Evener The link is not working maybe this will help:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...1%23post704225

Of course he had a different tone, this is before he got screwed over by Pete B. He bit his lip
when this was going on, because of the special treatment of the scores. We have all heard the
stories about the secret vote and to allow it or not at Big Bang 2010. I assume that was one of
the factors that drove him to quitting. My issues with him is he made it more difficult after he
left TG for the few of us left trying to restore credibly to TG. With his articles and posts
aimed at what Pete B. did to him rather than Twin Galaxies as whole.

But none of this matter as Todd Rogers and Morningdove were the "refs" at the time and the
secret vote was valid. The score is in the database.

All this proves is many people were skeptical back then about the score. Doesn't prove
anything either way.

They did based on Todd and Morningdove's approval. But none of that matters, because this
score is currently accepted.

02-10-2018, 08:47 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Well everything needs to still be covered and touched upon, but right now what is vital to this
dispute is Billy providing the original tapes, as well as showing how this direct feed theory
could be the smoking gun that debunks the evidence claiming he played on MAME. As
someone who is on Billy's side I am a skeptic, I have spoken to many of the experts in the
community and they don't see this theory as being plausible or as a smoking gun. Also be
Exhibit A - 000304
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 304/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

prepared, a huge distraction is incoming, however you're going to have to deal with it as not
everyone seems to understand the evidence which is clear as night and day if you are willing
to sit and study it.

02-10-2018, 08:53 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

It all depends on person/persons telling the stories. Right now, I would not believe a single
word from anyone backing Billy for a couple reasons.

1. He is the one being disputed. Therefore, some might say anything to prove he did this
score. I'm not saying all of them, but how could I possibly know.

2. Most of the people you are showing quotes from are already people who simply can't be
trusted because of their past/what they have said, in this case contradicting stories.

3. The evidence right now is proving everything they are saying to be inaccurate.

I get what you are saying but this is still a community discussion and because it is that this
thread is going to go over the place. You're going to have people ask the same questions over
and over again because nothing is centralized, you're going to have people provide what they
believe counters the evidence even though it's a distraction, all of these angles need to be
considered and debunked so that they never get asked again. Mark my words, a huge
distraction is coming, the best you guys can do is debunk it and get those who bring it forth to
understand why it is such. Even if they don't want to hear it at least others who might have
had the same question will. Also, you never know, it could have some useful stuff in it. I have
a saying, for every crazy person or liar comes a hint of truth out of their crazy hat. That hint
of truth could be extremely vital for this dispute or for documentation purposes down the road
for some historian to look at as this could be a historic gaming moment, or is.

02-10-2018, 08:59 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Exhibit A - 000305
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 305/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

What will matter after that is the direct feed evidence Billy talks about in the GameSpot
article, as well as the original tapes. <- This is the vital stuff! This is what we are waiting for
and hopefully ends this dispute quickly.

02-10-2018, 08:59 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

They have yet to debunk the evidence presented against Billy. Even if there is some
extraordinary way to get a video copy of a copy of a copy to look like MAME, it can't be
verified that process was used making the videos used against Billy used them. I'm just
assuming that is what the big distraction is. Some has figured out a way to make this possible,
some how. OOOORRRRR, Billy has the original tape and he never sent the original to TG, he
sent a copy. However, that would make Billy look even more shady stating TG has the
original in that interview knowing full well he had the original, so if that where the case he
would actually really be hurting himself. Criss-cross. I could keep speculating but it does no
good since I'm looking at the evidence. By the way, I dropped a bomb this morning and it was
distracting for a few minutes but that was it.

02-10-2018, 09:03 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

The bomb mentioned in Triforce's podcast turned out to be a dud, as Wes exposed it, what's
going to come is a huge distraction - "new evidence", that needs to be picked apart. Like what
Christian Pac-Man has provided, however notice how out of it some important things came
Exhibit A - 000306
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 306/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

about? What's coming next needs to be clarified, picked apart, and debunked but with respect.

(Karate sounds) SMOKE BOMB

02-10-2018, 09:08 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

You've seen what people on my Facebook wall are talking about, some are close friends of
Billy, some are huge supporters. Do you notice something in common? They all haven't
looked or understand the evidence. The original hardware has this shutter effect when it goes
to redraw the screen, MAME puts everything together like a puzzle. No matter how many
frames you drop, or what medium you record with, there is no mistaking actual hardware for
MAME, but everyone I talk to about this can't see it!!!! I'm sure they read everything Jeremy
Young posted but didn't really take it in like I did originally. So don't be surprised that they
start showing up excited with their own theories but need to be educated, please educate them
for the outside onlookers who might ask the same questions. It will be a huge distraction but
one that needs to debunked if it is wrong.As for Billy's direct feed thing, the only way it could
render similar to MAME is if you used some device that bypassed the converter that translates
that information from digital to analog. Maybe then you'll get the puzzle formation thing that
MAME does, other than that I just can't see this direct feed thing as being plausible.

02-10-2018, 09:09 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Am I the only one who only really cares about actual evidence and not what ANYONE who
may have seen/seen/believes Billy did these things? Evidence people. I can say right now big
foot is sitting on my couch and there are some people who would believe it, most wouldn't.
That's all these posts regarding what people have to say are. They do nothing but add
DRAMA to this thing. It fuels the side that already believes in Billy he did, and it fuels the
side that thinks he didn't do it. Evidence. Videos/pictures. For the love of god, please no more
posts of what people have said they saw. It does nothing. Literally, nothing. I thought TG was
going to handle these posts getting out of hand? Evidence. Again, I realize I'm not posting
evidence but I at least ask questions regarding the evidence in question. It's just making it
Exhibit A - 000307
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 307/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

harder and longer (haha, weiner joke and I wasn't even trying) for people to actually find
evidence for or against this dispute. By the way, Big Foot says "Hi."

All evidence is relevant; you may value certain kinds of evidence more than other, and that is
fine - you wish to limit your interest to videos/pictures. What Billy claims happened in his
words is evidence, what people claim to have seen is evidence - if you deem it uninteresting,
of course no one is forcing you to value it. I'm not sure why examining people's claims is
"drama" - I can assure you interpreting video evidence and declaring "Look! Billy was
playing MAME all along!" has its own dramatic elements. I haven't attempted to curb the
scope, frequency, or nature of your contributions. If you don't wish to read something, then all
you have to do is hit the space bar on your keyboard, and you'll zip right by it.

02-10-2018, 09:10 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

(Karate sounds) *SMOKE BOMB*

Wes was correct, the bomb was a misunderstanding that using a custom jump button could
disqualify all of the top donkey kong players scores. Apologies were made and people were
put in their place, at least that was my take from it.

02-10-2018, 09:22 AM
DadsGlasses

The Christian PacMan provided evidence. Apparently it was “evidence” that he didn’t really
understand. A technical explanation was quickly provided.

02-10-2018, 09:36 AM
WCopeland
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I never received an apology.

02-10-2018, 09:41 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

My god, can the "threat" of dropping bombs/something huge is coming stop as well? Just
saying that means you are keeping something from the community or you really don't know
what it is because someone said they have something that will blow this whole thing up. It's
been a few weeks now, I figured this would have come up by now. You should just say it or
don't post until it comes. It only adds to the cloudiness of Billy's side at this point. I'm saying
this to help Billy's counter evidence. Right now, it's only making his claims look worse.
Exhibit A - 000308
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 308/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

man, you got no idea how many bluff and idle threat the old guard likes to make. its all they
got. intimidation and bluffs. every once of a while they finally reveal their "bomb" and on the
few cases that its the truth, its meaningless. Its something like "oh i warned you, now that
does it, here it is, video proof you forget to brush your teeth during the last kong off"

02-10-2018, 09:45 AM
The Evener
2 Attachment(s)

I was reviewing The Christian Pac-Man's video again that was posted by sandinboots. I
noticed that the bonus timer disappearances behind what looks like a rectangle around the
1000 mark. Does that look strange to anyone else? Just wanted to get a second opinion.

https://youtu.be/4lpbM1Fr3Gs?t=4m59s

Attachment 49864
Attachment 49865

02-10-2018, 09:45 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

wrong. everything is centralized right here. If two friends past a note to each other in study
hall, that hardly counts as part of the discussion somehow making things uncentralized.
People are avoiding the official dispute because they know their "evidence" is fabricated and
their logic flawed. They dont want to show up here and have their errors pointed out to them.
They get angry and just respond with "witch hunt""toxic" rather than accept their world view
is incorrect. Let them come here. If they dont want to come here, then their actions admit that
they know they got nothing

02-10-2018, 09:48 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

wrong. everything is centralized right here. If two friends past a note to each other in study
hall, that hardly counts as part of the discussion somehow making things uncentralized.
People are avoiding the official dispute because they know their "evidence" is fabricated and
their logic flawed. They dont want to show up here and have their errors pointed out to them.
Exhibit A - 000309
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 309/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

They get angry and just respond with "witch hunt""toxic" rather than accept their world view
is incorrect. Let them come here. If they dont want to come here, then their actions admit that
they know they got nothing

Christian Pac Man got a lot more quiet after Twin Galaxies or Jace pointed out that the
footage he was posting showed it wasn't an original arcade cabinet.

02-10-2018, 10:08 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

I never received an apology.

Yeah, I retract what I said. Hopefully no more threats are made.

02-10-2018, 10:12 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Christian Pac Man got a lot more quiet after Twin Galaxies or Jace pointed out that the
footage he was posting showed it wasn't an original arcade cabinet.

He's still kicking that horse on Facebook. I just can't tell you if it is alive or dead. What I can
tell you is things are about to get ridiculous until the real stuff stated in the GameSpot article
are provided, which is hopefully tapes and a direct feed technical explanation.

02-10-2018, 10:21 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

psst...there is no real stuff and so it'll never be provided. the entire thing is "something big
coming next week" "ok fine that was a dud but next week there really is something big" "ok
fine that was nothing too, but have some patience something is about to come out" "ooo you
got me again, i admit i had nothing, but now i do just wait a little bit longer"....

02-10-2018, 10:30 AM
BenMullen
Patience

I'm reading every day and things continue to seem pretty clear cut overall. I think my only
relevant input to this thread is to register my personal happiness in the concept of allowing
time for any and all evidence to come forward. I believe it serves a few important purposes:

1) Assuming he loses the score which looks probable at this point it keeps pro-billy folks
from being able to claim they were not given ample time to mount a defense.
Exhibit A - 000310
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 310/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

2) Waiting does not really change the end result and there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

3) Well, if we are advocates of Twin Galaxies growing its user base... whos gunna complain
about the increased traffic? ;) This one really is not a "good" reason, but it is a fringe benefit.

I guess number 1 is the only truly important one but it is important. So even though I think the
evidence exists to remove the score immediately, I appreciate TG's running after any evidence
people bring forward with vigor and taking time to do it.

02-10-2018, 10:33 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Everytime the dreaded 3 notification quote thing happens I cringe knowing someone is about
to pick me apart. No these guys need to have this new evidence by Friday or at least an update
on what's happening so far and what is coming. It would also help to know what hardware
they are using for the direct feed, how it was set up ect, because maybe someone else can get
that ball rolling quicker.

The clock is ticking and Billy is about to turn into a pumpkin if he can't explain this. I already
tried to do what little I can on my part.

02-10-2018, 10:40 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Christian Pac Man got a lot more quiet after Twin Galaxies or Jace pointed out that the
footage he was posting showed it wasn't an original arcade cabinet.

I pleaded with him on Facebook to bring his “evidence” and argument here. He won’t. He has
blocked me.

02-10-2018, 11:03 AM
datagod
Recreate a sample video

Here is what I suggest that Billy's team do:

1. Find the original arcade cabinet the score was achieved on. I believe Neil Hernandez has it
in Florida, but i may have mis read that.
2. Hook up the original direct capture device.
3. Play some Donkey Kong.
4. Record to a VCR via direct catpure device noted in step 2.
5. Upload the video so people can analyze it.
Exhibit A - 000311
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 311/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If it exhibits the same "wow, that looks just like Mame" behavior, the it requires further
investigation.
Surely it cannot be that hard to put this together. The same people who did it the first time are
still in Florida, are they not?

02-10-2018, 11:06 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

The direct feed thing is worth exploring. It's only fair as that was the setup that was used,
what they need to do is get the guy who did it, the hardware they used and capture it. That's it!
The original tapes would help as well.

But as I already explained I just can't see how that would make the screen render like MAME
unless it bypasses the digital to analog conversion which would be overkill in my book.

02-10-2018, 11:10 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

But as I already explained I just can't see how that would make the screen render like MAME
unless it bypasses the digital to analog conversion which would be overkill in my book.

We already have direct feed video. It shows that it does not load anything like mame.

02-10-2018, 11:14 AM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fendersonia

I hate to do this, but can someone shut this ****-stirrer up already? Where's the mythical
"heavy hand"?!
Maybe you're a great guy, Hector.... but for the love of christmas, can somebody squelch this
drama lover's attempts to obfuscate things? He has literally *never* brought anything useful
to the table.

Yeah, THAT's not toxic at all. Thanks Cat.

02-10-2018, 11:16 AM
Riatoju
Exhibit A - 000312
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 312/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

We already have direct feed video. It shows that it does not load anything like mame.

Right but the hardware or setup Billy and co used is different. If they did something
unorthodox it's worth looking at. The experts agree they likely didn't, this shouldn't take but a
few days to put together. The only way it could render even remotely to mame is if they
bypassed the analog conversion process. But I'm sure the experts here may have mentioned
that you would have to have different video hardware for that to happen.

02-10-2018, 11:27 AM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I would like to see some sort of official statement from Billy (or his video guy) of EXACTLY
what they claim their recording technique was. People are saying we should recreate it and
test that way, but I still haven't seen any details given? Why are we having to guess?

I'm also very curious about your statement that, "The only way it could render even remotely
to mame is if they bypassed the analog conversion process". What expert has said "it could
render remotely to mame if they bypassed the analog conversion process"? Everything I've
seen indicates bypassing analog conversion isn't going to make it render like MAME. Can
you please provide a reference to this expert's claim?

02-10-2018, 11:36 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

No expert said that, It was my theory that if you bypassed the analog conversion and used
something else to convert the raw digital data through another converter then it could render
like MAME. In video memory everything is handled like tiles, well at least on the NES. What
I noticed with MAME rendering is on some screens the ladders load, the platforms load, then
the sprites. The NES uses nametables to store tiles, and that could render like MAME through
Exhibit A - 000313
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 313/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

an emulator, while on an actual console it may render differently. But I think Tanner Fokkens
debunked that with me privately because of how the video hardware handles raw data...

02-10-2018, 11:45 AM
Riatoju

Old game consoles, and likely old arcades as well store everything as tiles in their memory,
when these tiles are drawn to the screen on an emulator they will render like a puzzle. I
imagine the Donkey Kong arcade has a place to store all the tiles and sprites, and before
rendering to the screen they render in some memory like tiles, a converter draws this to the
screen using a snapshot of the memory.

The reason I post this here is maybe someone can chime in, there are people who know about
this here. It's a good topic while we wait.

02-10-2018, 11:45 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

No expert said that, It was my theory that if you bypassed the analog conversion and used
something else to convert the raw digital data through another converter then it could render
like MAME. In video memory everything is handled like tiles, well at least on the NES. What
I noticed with MAME rendering is on some screens the ladders load, the platforms load, then
the sprites. The NES uses nametables to store tiles, and that could render like MAME through
an emulator, while on an actual console it may render differently. But I think Tanner Fokkens
debunked that with me privately because of how the video hardware handles raw data...

That is a hypothesis not a theory. I don't see how it would change how the board is drawn by
the hardware.

02-10-2018, 11:54 AM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

That is a hypothesis not a theory. I don't see how it would change how the board is drawn by
the hardware.

I just explained how these old games store and display information before drawing it to the
screen. It is in fact rendered like a puzzle, the conversion to screen takes a snapshot of that
displays it to the screen. The puzzle rendering only occurs in memory. These old games keep
everything in memory as tiles and assembles them like puzzle pieces to the screen. The only
problem is the puzzle rendering of each of these videos of Billy's may have a corresponding
MAME version that they match up to.

It would be great to hear if this direct feed thing can be debunked, the question I have is,
could a particular setup render things differently from the known setup that's part of this
evidence against Billy?

02-10-2018, 12:00 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Exhibit A - 000314
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 314/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

The way the direct feed is set up should not affect how the board itself renders the game.

02-10-2018, 12:06 PM
Riatoju
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

The way the direct feed is set up should not affect how the board itself renders the game.

But that's the problem we don't know how the direct feed was set up for this, but supposedly
they'll be covering all those bases in the next several days. Internally the game puts the screen
together as a puzzle, than that memory is captured and rendered to the screen. All these old
games work that way. Donkey Kong for NES as you can see is made up of tiles that are then
rendered to the screen, everything is broken up into these small tiles, even the sprites.

Attachment 49881

02-10-2018, 12:07 PM
erockbrox

I have a question. Has Billy Mitchell responded anywhere in this thread to try and defend his
own score?

I think that if he were to do this that it would speak volumes. If everyone sees that you are
defending your score dispute then they at least see that you are putting effort into trying to
remedy the situation.

I have read arguments that he might be trying to milk the spotlight to promote his hot sauce
business or something, but honestly if someone is getting a bad reputation, as a consumer it
doesn't make me anymore interested in wanting to get that product that they sell. Being a
good businessman is about honesty and ethics.

So I have a message that I want to send directly to Billy Mitchell.

Exhibit A - 000315
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 315/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy, I suggest that you get out the Donkey Kong machine and start recording some games
and posting the results and redeem yourself. No more direct feed videos of your Donkey
Kong games. If you don't defend your score dispute then people may assume that you are
done with video games and that you have retired.

02-10-2018, 12:15 PM
Riatoju

This is pretty good, someone posted a direct feed capture to VHS today on the Donkey
Forums!

Source: http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...cseen#msg33655

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XbB0d3LDhY&feature=youtu.be

02-10-2018, 12:16 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

What I am saying, is there is no way to set up the direct feed that would affect how the
hardware renders it. Consoles and arcades do not worth the same.

02-10-2018, 12:18 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

This is pretty good, someone posted a direct feed capture to VHS today on the Donkey
Forums!

Source: //donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.msg33655;topicseen#msg33655

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XbB0d3LDhY&feature=youtu.be

Yep, this isn't rendering like mame. It is doing the window blind rendering.

02-10-2018, 12:18 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

If I were Billy and saw this thread, I think the best thing to do would be to get out the old
Donkey Kong machine and just start setting records and start doing some live streaming and
start proving myself.
Exhibit A - 000316
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 316/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The dispute is not Billy's skill. The dispute is that he used MAME in his 1.062 million record.
Anything he does by way of DK scores after the fact is irrelevant.

02-10-2018, 12:21 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Yep, this isn't rendering like mame. It is doing the window blind rendering.

I'm not seeing the shutter because of lack of frames but apparently they have screenshots of it
happening on the DK Forums.

02-10-2018, 12:26 PM
FBX

By the way, I'd be very apprehensive about the stalling tactics going on right now. It could
mean a fake video is being cooked up behind the scenes and then passed off as exoneration
evidence. And be prepared for deflections like "it's not our problem if you can't replicate what
this new video shows" and so forth.

02-10-2018, 12:27 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

I'm not seeing the shutter because of lack of frames but apparently they have screenshots of it
happening on the DK Forums.

Slow it down to .25 and pause it when you see the "how high..." with the kong. Then click the
period key on your keyboard to progress it frame by frame.

02-10-2018, 12:33 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Slow it down to .25 and pause it when you see the "how high..." with the kong. Then click the
period key on your keyboard to progress it frame by frame.

I have been, not all the level transitions have it but I believe it is there. The screenshots is
convincing enough. It's also great to see this transferred to VHS. I think this solves alot of
questions I had, I am very interested to see how they will tackle this.

02-10-2018, 01:15 PM
bh_
Exhibit A - 000317
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 317/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

The dispute is that he used MAME in his 1.062 million record.

I suspect he used MAME for his 1.050m and 1.047m games as well. There's still more to be
done but I'm 90 minutes into transcribing his barrel stage smashes for the 1.047m. In his first
50 blue barrel smashes, he scores 300 points only four times. This puts the 1.047m game in
the 99.8th percentile for RNG good fortune.

To lay out the case:

1. He gets more smashes than other top players. A linear regression on (total score) vs. (#
smashes) show's Billy is an outlier. I don't have enough data to assess significance. His smash
count puts him on a pace to exceed 1.1m points. This is consistent with restarting stages until
a favorable outcome appeared. A good reason to drop your controls on a cheated run is to
avoid showing a ridiculous improvement over your last record.

2. His smashes are worth more. He has >99th percentile RNG luck in the 1.047m and 1.050m
games. This is consistent with restarting stages. Other players WR with middling luck. It's
very surprising that he'd WR twice with a ridiculous RNG.

3. The DK RNG is not trivially susceptible to manipulation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by source

0057 3A1860 LD A,(RngTimer1) ; load A with timer
005A 211A60 LD HL,FrameCounter ; load HL with other timer address
005D 86 ADD A,(HL) ; add
005E 211960 LD HL,RngTimer2 ; load HL with yet another timer address
0061 86 ADD A,(HL) ; add
0062 321860 LD (RngTimer1),A ; store
0065 C9 RET ; return

In another routine,RngTimer2 is incremented on every time an event is handled. This is a

lousy RNG for sure but to manipulate it in real time you'd need to:
1. Infer its internal state.
2. Track the number of events on screen.
3. Figure out which frame to smash on.
4. Smash on that frame.
5. Repeat over a 2:30 hour game.

My high score in DK is about 3000, but this strikes me as a dumb strategy for a human and an
awesome TAS strategy.

02-10-2018, 02:40 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by bh_

I suspect he used MAME for his 1.050m and 1.047m games as well.
Exhibit A - 000318
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 318/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I don't doubt it, but this thread is over the 1.062 million score. If you add in the other two
scores, it creates a more broad scope with which to defend and deflect from. For example,
there might be less evidence in one case, which Billy could latch onto and completely ignore
the other two cases where there's more iron-clad evidence. That's already been happening in
this thread.

02-10-2018, 04:10 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

All three have the same iron clad evidence. The rendering of the games is absolutely mame on
the videos he presented as direct feed donkey kong scores.

02-10-2018, 06:06 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)

We're all familiar with how Billy has claimed up to a 100 people were watching him at
Boomer's arcade taking photos and videos of his run. Billy also mentioned in interviews that
he went "above and beyond" with a camera on a nine foot tripod about 30 feet back
confirming his live arcade play. From a crowd this size, there must be pretty good odds of a
social media footprint - hopefully with photos or videos - showing these DK fans, the 9 foot
camera, Pete Bouvier actually on-site to bless the score, you name it. Before taking a look, I
wanted to reconfirm some timeline details of the Boomer visit to help with the search.

The Robert Childs' videos don't make mention of what time of day it is, beyond referencing
he was pulled out of bed for the DK Junior score. Billy doesn't make mention of how long his
games took, but we know from the Twin Galaxies press release in 2010 that his DK game
took 2hrs 42 minutes, and Dk Junior required 3hrs 58 minutes.

In his 2010 interviews, Billy says that while waiting for Pete, he decided that he had "one
more thing to do," and then started playing DK Junior. In his recent interview with East Side
Dave, Billy changed some details and added clarity around others. Billy said after his DK
record, "we went, we had something to eat, and when I say we, I don't mean Pete, the rest of
us went, had something to eat, finished up, it was only about six or seven o'clock in that area,
and...I was antagonized quite a bit that I should play now and I played again, and again I'm
the first to acknowledge through good fortune I got the score that I got on Donkey Kong
Junior."

So with a 6 or 7pm start on his DK Junior game, factor in time for a suspicious PCB swap,
setting up the direct feed equipment a second time, and we're probably looking at anywhere
between 11:00pm-12:00am midnight when Billy finally clinched the new DK Junior record.
This would seem to jive with Robert claiming he was pulled out of bed when he ran down to
film the aftermath.

The social media landscape was different in 2010, but with up to 100+ people with cameras
Exhibit A - 000319
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 319/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

and phones, there was bound to be something.

YouTube turned up nothing except the Robert Childs videos, which was the case in 2010.
Next, I searched the Twitter archives a few days on either side of July 31 to account for
anyone who might have witnessed both the DK and DK Junior score.

I turned up a single tweet from a Fort Lauderdale-based account. No attached photos or video
links. It simply read "Breaking: Billy Mitchell takes back both Donkey Kong an DK Jr
records today" -- posted on July 31 at 4:27pm.

Attachment 49893

02-10-2018, 06:14 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

The social media landscape was different in 2010, but with up to 100+ people with cameras
and phones, there was bound to be something.

I turned up a single tweet from a Fort Lauderdale-based account. No attached photos or video
Exhibit A - 000320
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 320/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

links. It simply read "Breaking: Billy Mitchell takes back both Donkey Kong an DK Jr
records today" -- posted on July 31 at 4:27pm.

Attachment 49893

Billy changed his story about pete being there after he has passed away. That is kind of gross.

02-10-2018, 06:31 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

All three have the same iron clad evidence. The rendering of the games is absolutely mame on
the videos he presented as direct feed donkey kong scores.

On the other hand, if you focus on the currently disputed record at hand, he has no outs, no
means to deflect to other events, and it must be dealt with accordingly.

02-10-2018, 06:37 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

On the other hand, if you focus on the currently disputed record at hand, he has no outs, no
means to deflect to other events, and it must be dealt with accordingly.

Do you realize how damning the evidence is?

02-10-2018, 06:49 PM
JJT_Defender

I Agree Deal with this First Dispute &

Welcome Wolf & your Brother Mike to Twin Galaxy
God Bless You

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

You still allow him to choose a perceived 'weakest link' where if there's any doubt whatsoever
of the events surrounding any of the 3 tapes and him presenting them, he can hyper-focus on
that as a means of rejecting the other two. It's effectively a "you can't prove I committed
Exhibit all 3
A - 000321
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 321/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

acts because of this one slight unknown variable in event #1, so therefore I'm innocent of all 3
acts"

On the other hand, if you focus on the currently disputed record at hand, he has no outs, no
means to deflect to other events, and it must be dealt with accordingly.

02-10-2018, 06:59 PM
Snowflake

I like how the argument is no longer is he guilty, but rather which piece of evidence is the
most convincing way to prove his guilt.

02-10-2018, 07:06 PM
erockbrox

I just thought of an interesting idea. Which could be used as evidence.

I just watched the VHS tape of a Donkey Kong arcade with a direct feed video.

So when you look at these old arcades, sometimes there is a "burn in" image that is on the
monitor. Now I don't know if the direct feed captures this burn in effect or not so can anyone
confirm whether a direct feed capture also records in the monitor "burn in image" too?

We know which Donkey Kong arcade these records were set on right? So we need to see if
those monitors have a burnt in image on them or not and to also check to see if a direct feed
capture off of an DK machine will also capture the burnt in images.

Now not every arcade monitor has a burnt in image on it, but its pretty common and could be
used as clear evidence in this case.

02-10-2018, 07:12 PM
erockbrox

Can someone confirm whether a direct feed capture from an arcade would also include a burn
in image onto the monitor if the monitor should have one.

For example, this arcade monitor has a burn in image of Pacman on it. Would a direct feed
capture a burn in image similar to this one in the picture?

https://i.imgur.com/uLFaWTx.png

02-10-2018, 07:16 PM
bh_

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

Can someone confirm whether a direct feed capture from an arcade would also include a burn
in image onto the monitor if the monitor should have one.

For example, this arcade monitor has a burn in image of Pacman on it. Would a direct feed
capture a burn in image similar to this one in the picture?

Exhibit A - 000322
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 322/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

No.

Apparently I need to use at least ten characters, so here are a few more.

02-10-2018, 08:06 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I like how the argument is no longer is he guilty, but rather which piece of evidence is the
most convincing way to prove his guilt.

At this point we are just waiting for twin galaxies to finish their findings. I think truth will
prevail here.

02-10-2018, 08:10 PM
karljobst

I think it is fine to delve into his past runs in great detail. Cheating/lying is a bannable offense
so if we have conclusive evidence that his past run was a cheated score we may not even need
proof for his latest score.

You dont need to prove EVERY score is fake. You only need to prove one.

02-10-2018, 08:19 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

So with a 6 or 7pm start on his DK Junior game, factor in time for a suspicious PCB swap,
setting up the direct feed equipment a second time, and we're probably looking
ExhibitatAanywhere
- 000323
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 323/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

between 11:00pm-12:00am midnight when Billy finally clinched the new DK Junior record.
This would seem to jive with Robert claiming he was pulled out of bed when he ran down to
film the aftermath.

The social media landscape was different in 2010, but with up to 100+ people with cameras
and phones, there was bound to be something.

Attachment 49893

Did you contact this man to ask how he know about the records being set?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bcirce

02-10-2018, 08:27 PM
serphintizer

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

At this point we are just waiting for twin galaxies to finish their findings. I think truth will
prevail here.

Well hold on now...this screen burn-in tidbit may be something to follow-up on.

Are there any experts that could maybe analyze this a tad more?

02-10-2018, 08:30 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by serphintizer

Well hold on now...this screen burn-in tidbit may be something to follow-up on.

Are there any experts that could maybe analyze this a tad more?

No, the screen burn-in is not really something to follow up on. The quality of the monitor
would not have any affect on a direct feed video as that bypasses the monitor.

02-10-2018, 08:31 PM
datagod
Videos and articles right after Billy played

I did a bit of googling tonight to see what I could dig up with regards to Billy's submissions.

This one is immediately right after the DK record: Exhibit A - 000324

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 324/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFLGF933tgc

Here is a video or RTM and Dwayne discussing the machine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-CBb7dNUjI

02-10-2018, 09:06 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I did a bit of googling tonight to see what I could dig up with regards to Billy's submissions.

This one is immediately right after the DK record:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFLGF933tgc

Here is a video or RTM and Dwayne discussing the machine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-CBb7dNUjI

There was a video talking about how Pete was NOT there for the world record. He was
talking in front of a group of people. I can't find it now though.

02-10-2018, 09:18 PM
datagod
1 Attachment(s)
Twin Galaxies official release

This is a screen cap taken from the internet archives

Attachment 49902

02-10-2018, 09:20 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

The reason I post this here is maybe someone can chime in, there are people who know about
this here. It's a good topic while we wait.

I can confirm right now since I just did it, that FCEUX Nes emulator doesn't render a single
thing. The entire picture shows up all at once. So I can confirm Billy did not use FCEUX,
haha.

02-10-2018, 09:23 PM
Exhibit A - 000325
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 325/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

This is a screen cap taken from the internet archives

Attachment 49902

I feel like they would have mentioned if Pete was there? The two referees who verified it
aren't exactly trustworthy either.

02-10-2018, 09:29 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Attachment 49881

I think the issue here is Billy's side is trying so hard on convincing people that it is possible to
get different picture rendering because of the recording device. Whatever is being captured
doesn't care what is recording it. It will function the way it was programmed. Also, if the
cabinet Billy played on did in fact read as a normal cabinet but the video output appeared as
MAME, wouldn't the only explanation be because some sort of mod was used to get it to
function that way? Aren't mods a no go? I'm asking, I don't know much about cabinet
submissions.

02-10-2018, 09:30 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Or he just used MAME, but I'm trying to cover all possible angles faster.

02-10-2018, 09:31 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000326
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 326/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Or he just used MAME, but I'm trying to cover all possible angles faster.

The arcade and MAME render so differently you can't really mistake it.

02-10-2018, 09:35 PM
datagod
1 Attachment(s)
Patrick Scott Peterson

Peterson (OriginalPSP) confirmed here that direct feed was allowed at the time, and had no
direct bearing on the game because it was verified live by a referee.

Attachment 49903

02-10-2018, 09:41 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Peterson (OriginalPSP) confirmed here that direct feed was allowed at the time, and had no
direct bearing on the game because it was verified live by a referee.

Attachment 49903

What does PSP think of the whole situation now with one of the two referees being banned
and all scores wiped from the leaderboards and the other referee was his girlfriend? oh and
the whole the gameplay was faked using mame to increase his smash chances to better his
score without actually learning better routes.

02-10-2018, 09:42 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I did a bit of googling tonight to see what I could dig up with regards to Billy's submissions.

This one is immediately right after the DK record:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFLGF933tgc

Here is a video or RTM and Dwayne discussing the machine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-CBb7dNUjI

The first video was posted in this thread last August, on the first day of this dispute. The
second video is a conversation about Steve Wiebe's 1.049M performance, not Billy Mitchell.

02-10-2018, 09:46 PM
datagod

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000327
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 327/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by xelnia

The first video was posted in this thread last August, on the first day of this dispute. The
second video is a conversation about Steve Wiebe's 1.049M performance, not Billy Mitchell.

Oops! Sorry about that. I saw somebody say the couldn't find video, so I spent some time
googling.

02-10-2018, 09:49 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

The first video was posted in this thread last August, on the first day of this dispute. The
second video is a conversation about Steve Wiebe's 1.049M performance, not Billy Mitchell.

i think some interesting points are still made there though. For example, for steve, due to the
filming, there was no way to be sure the board in the machine was the board shown earlier.
Well for billy, its kinda the reverse, there's no way to know the dk jr board wasnt the dk board
with the sleight of hand they tried.

02-10-2018, 09:53 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Do you realize how damning the evidence is?

Yes I do. Do you realize the lengths some people will go through to make even the worst of
evidence seem trivial nonsense? Think back to a certain trial in 1995...

02-10-2018, 09:57 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Yes I do. Do you realize the lengths some people will go through to make even the worst of
evidence seem trivial nonsense? Think back to a certain trial in 1995...

Good thing there isn't a jury and the adjudication team delivers the final verdict based on the
evidence and not whatever someone says might have happened. "it might have been this but i
have no evidence" won't be good enough.

02-10-2018, 09:57 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Exhibit A - 000328
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 328/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Attachment 49893

Direct link to tweet

02-10-2018, 11:41 PM
erockbrox

I read that Billy's blue barrel and fireball smashes were in the 99th percentile in terms of
RNG. Which is highly improbable.

The best explanation that I can think of is that Billy simply thought that the Donkey Kong
game was already maxed out and that the only way to really beat another player at this level
was the luck of the RNG. While now we know Donkey Kong can be pushed much further, at
the time Billy probably thought that manipulating the RNG was the only thing that could be
done to further the game.

Also in the direct feed tapes that Billy submitted does there exist a start up of when the arcade
was actually booted up? Like video footage in the direct feed video of when the arcade is
turned off then turning on showing the transition of the on/off power state.

02-11-2018, 01:39 AM
erockbrox

On the East Side Dave Show, Billy Mitchell says "I've never even played MAME. I don't
have MAME loaded in my home."

I find this rather interesting. I think that the majority of professional players out there would
agree that MAME is an indispensable tool to any arcade player looking to set a serious record
on an arcade game.

For Billy to say that he's never played MAME... not even to use as a tool to practice with is
odd. Most people don't have access to hundreds upon hundreds of arcade machines at their
convenience, but with MAME you can. This is why people use MAME.

02-11-2018, 06:49 AM
karljobst

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkwECcfqX_I

On this video I noticed that the 1-up on Steve's footage is flashing faster than Billy's footage.
Is this because the flashing on MAME is slower in general? Is this a known difference?

02-11-2018, 06:50 AM
bh_

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

The best explanation that I can think of is that Billy simply thought that the Donkey Kong
game was already maxed out and that the only way to really beat another player at this level
Exhibit A - 000329
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 329/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

was the luck of the RNG.

This isn't just a 1 in 100 event. He was in the 99th percentile for his mean smash score for two
games AND he had a ridiculously high number of smashes AND this happened to occur on
the same day he started exhibiting supernaturally perfect play. Each of these on its own isn't
suspicious, but together and in the context of other evidence, it's suggestive of cheating. The
red point is his 1.052m game plotted versus other world record games. He was on a 1.2m
pace. He had 14% more rivet smashes than Robbie Lakeman with nearly 200,000 fewer total
points. I don't have enough data to show just how extreme his smash count is, but it looks
dodgy.

Attachment 49920

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

While now we know Donkey Kong can be pushed much further, at the time Billy probably
thought that manipulating the RNG was the only thing that could be done to further the game.

He doesn't know how to manipulate the RNG. None of the top players know how to do this in
live play. This is harder than SMB wall bumping or the Bullet Bob trick. You could execute it
on a TAS, but I seriously doubt a human could pull it off in real time. Speaking of TAS, the
1.047m video looks like one. For example, at around 57:16 (https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk?
t=57m16s) he pulls a trick that top level players tell me they'd be ambivalent about doing
while speed running. Risking a supernaturally good RNG an hour into a game that's already
on WR pace is absurd. A more plausible explanation is that he restarted a stage when he got a
result he didn't like.

02-11-2018, 06:53 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by bh_

Attachment 49920

Exhibit A - 000330
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 330/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

on WR pace is absurd. A more plausible explanation is that he restarted a stage when he got a
result he didn't like.

The whole point of mame is you can keep playing the same levels over and over until you get
the right RNG. You can use save states and construct a run then output it to VHS.

02-11-2018, 06:57 AM
RomulusVonFlex
1 Attachment(s)

Also from that youtube video you posted.Attachment 49925

02-11-2018, 07:39 AM
bh_
2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Also from that youtube video you posted. (image)

Same thing on the 1.057m video:

Attachment 49928
Attachment 49929

02-11-2018, 07:39 AM
Robert.F
getting confused

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Peterson (OriginalPSP) confirmed here that direct feed was allowed at the time, and had no
direct bearing on the game because it was verified live by a referee.

Attachment 49903

Data im getting mix up here .. Is there a copy of bills 1 062 800 direct feed of he boomers dk
record? If there is,,,, has it been proven to be mame? i mean if there is a 1 062 800 direct feed
mame score and a so possibly live setting of this record 1 062 800 on a DK PCB how would
be possible? it cant be :) or is this the smoking gun defense Bill is playing,,,, The tape feed
tape is missing so it cant be verify as mame and the game play live was verified good but it to
missing any prof he play it other then the word of a cheater that been band :) this fin nuts I`m
tell you but Billy has made other games direct feed of mame watch until now or still to now
Billy wants us to be leave he never play mame never own a copy of mame and its not in his
house lol this is nuts ,

02-11-2018, 07:51 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Exhibit A - 000331
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 331/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In the video of billy standing in front of 2 tvs showing off his 1062 score, the game is
MAME.

02-11-2018, 08:03 AM
Robert.F
i hate to think

So at this Point we been told by billy supporters just wait (Billy will present his defense in
due time) I hate to think Billy is Playing right now some ware on a DK pcb cab with direct
feed with the hopes to play a dk game scoring 1 062 800 and he himself will pop up mouths
maybe a year from now and say "AH HAAA HERE IT IS I FOUND THE TAPE" LOL , This
reminds me of the time i was watching a friend`s kid and my kids.. $50 bucks when missing
from my wallet well everyone was still in my house, After me yelling and screaming for hour
saying "whoever did it going to get a butt whooping and how that all money i have to buy
food and how the mother of the friend`s kids going to upset" the $50 bucks was located under
my bed by my friend kid..... :)

02-11-2018, 08:05 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

We have enough of the original gameplay on that video from michael sroke to verify if it is
the same video. The odds of him being able to construct the exact movements would be
tough.

02-11-2018, 08:12 AM
thegamer1185

So I guess we are waiting on two things to happen at this point. Billy's side to drop their
distracting evidence, as Hector calls it, or for TG to officially close this dispute.

02-11-2018, 08:13 AM
DadsGlasses
Exhibit A - 000332
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 332/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

We have enough of the original gameplay on that video from michael sroke to verify if it is
the same video. The odds of him being able to construct the exact movements would be
tough.

What about them splicing in cut scenes?

02-11-2018, 08:19 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

What about them splicing in cut scenes?

It's 2018. We have the technology to figure out if it is doctored footage.

02-11-2018, 08:23 AM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

It's 2018. We have the technology to figure out if it is doctored footage.

Haha! Thank you. I assumed that was the case, but wasn’t sure. My brain works on 1979 level
technology!

02-11-2018, 08:28 AM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
the problem

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

In the video of billy standing in front of 2 tvs showing off his 1062 score, the game is
MAME.

Hay The problem with the video of billy standing in front of 2 tvs showing off his 1062 score
, There is dough that has been place on them tapes watch i dont buy.... like saying , maybe i
have my facts wrong but it (that`s was not my tape) or (someone swatch the tapes used at the
hall fame) , It`s like the juvenile delinquent in a court who charge with stealing a bicycle
saying to the judge "I didn't steal it i found it in the local creek" or the cookie jar defense “I
didn’t take those cookies from the cookie jar.” a statement that something that is true is false
(or something that is false is true) :) Attachment 49933

02-11-2018, 08:36 AM
DadsGlasses

The problem with the IVGHOF tapes is that Billy is seen watching his own game play. He
even autographs the VCR that is playing the tapes. It’s hard to make the claim that “Hey those
weren’t my tapes” if he was proud enough to display them and even autograph the player.
Exhibit A - 000333
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 333/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

02-11-2018, 08:41 AM
Ripper

Quote:

Originally Posted by karljobst

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkwECcfqX_I

On this video I noticed that the 1-up on Steve's footage is flashing faster than Billy's footage.
Is this because the flashing on MAME is slower in general? Is this a known difference?

Thought for sure you knew this but the 1 UP is controlled by the players heart beat. :-P

02-11-2018, 08:45 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

02-11-2018, 08:52 AM
Robert.F
HOW HOW HOW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

yeah I`m sure Steve Sanders or Billy handle them tape`s,, Heck Bill may have even autograph
the tape`s ... Meaning if it was not the same tape as clam how would the perpetrator know
what brand of tape how would the perpetrator know what was written on the tape.... (only
ridicules answers opens the doors to even more ridicules question ) :) Exhibit A - 000334
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 334/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

How would Billy know if the tapes where change if the tapes are missing lol

02-11-2018, 09:06 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

How would Billy know if the tapes where change if the tapes are missing lol

so billy submitted to TG the change tapes thinking they where the originals ?

02-11-2018, 09:10 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

so billy submitted to TG the change tapes thinking they where the originals ?

So if that is true! Then regiments of the original tapes would have to come from the one who
toke them? and not from billy

02-11-2018, 12:43 PM
erockbrox

I just had an idea to compare the audio sounds of a Donkey Kong arcade to that of the audio
sounds from Donkey Kong on MAME to see if there are any differences.

There are some emulators which are a little off in reproducing the official sound. For example
ZSNES is a SNES emulator known for misrepresenting the actual SNES sound chip.

The only thing is that, I forgot that Billy's run had NO AUDIO at all.

02-11-2018, 12:54 PM
bh_

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I just had an idea to compare the audio sounds of a Donkey Kong arcade to that of the audio
sounds from Donkey Kong on MAME to see if there are any differences.

There are some emulators which are a little off in reproducing the official sound. For example
ZSNES is a SNES emulator known for misrepresenting the actual SNES sound chip.

The only thing is that, I forgot that Billy's run had NO AUDIO at all.

DK on MAME has known sound problems.

02-11-2018, 01:42 PM
IAmNerdJock

Maybe this has been asked before, but IF Billy recorded it direct feed, would a direct feed
capture audio as well. If so, why wasn't there audio on the TVs Billy used for hisA - 000335
Exhibit
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 335/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

presentation? Has anyone asked him about audio?

02-11-2018, 01:50 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Maybe this has been asked before, but IF Billy recorded it direct feed, would a direct feed
capture audio as well. If so, why wasn't there audio on the TVs Billy used for his
presentation? Has anyone asked him about audio?

I didnt want to steal anyone else's thunder as others figured this out years and years before
me, but since the question has been asked multiple times, people have been suspcious about
billy's score LOONG before finally showing its MAME. The lack of sound was one of the
many suspicious things. Billy went out of his way to make an "evidence" package that was
missing key pieces of evidence.

02-11-2018, 01:59 PM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

It is possible to capture audio in a direct feed setup. Refer to Chris Gleed's setup in the initial
MAME evidence post. Billy's explanation is that, back then, "they didn't have a way to tap in"
to the audio. See 32:17 in the following clip:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/32378833?t=32m17s

02-11-2018, 02:59 PM
Robert.F

DK pcb have no sound amp on them,,,,, but they do put out a low level audio signal that go`s
to the amplifier on the EZ20 monitor , vary much the same computers speakers work (i have
used a computer speaker amplifier on my VS cab no problem) my point is it is a cake walk to
take sound off a DK Nintendo board (low Level) and feed it directly in to the low level audio
input of a VCR, All got to do is make a cable ...just cut one end off a RCA cable and hook the
RCA end to he VCR and the Center wire and ground shield to the dk pcb audio output
er

02-11-2018, 03:03 PM
maximumsteve
Read with patience and a open mind please...

This is from my friend and colleague Robert Childs regarding the dispute.
There is a lot here, so please be patient with yourself, and when you have
time read with a open mind....

Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong Dispute my tech analysis

Exhibit A - 000336
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 336/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

NORMALLY I do not get involved in disputes and arguments especially one

as silly as this, however, as a witness to the event and technician who
performed the game/equipment set-up for Billy Mitchell, I can attest Billy
did not submit his record scores playing on MAME. It all boils down to
this. When you hook up a 1980s era Donkey Kong board to a 2000s era
RGB to NTSC converter board and then run it to a 1970s technology VCR
for recording God only knows what it will do to the signal. Billy is my
childhood friend, however, I am not writing this post because Billy is my
friend but rather it is the truth.
The following is a LAYMAN’S explanation of the hook-up used for each of
Billy Mitchell’s scores
Also below is posted a TECHNICAL explanation for those who are so
inclined.
In the comparison between Weibe’s video and Billy’s in the side by side,
the differences are apparent. The purpose here is to explain the
difference. Those unfamiliar with the explained method of hook-up to
record have raised an unnecessary firestorm of innuendo and accusation.
Said firestorm could easily have been avoided if Billy Mitchell had first
been asked instead of first being accused. This explanation and the more
detailed TECHNICAL explanation below will answer the claims of those
unfamiliar in this method of recording.
In Wiebe’s video, he used a camera on a tripod angled slightly behind him.
This showed on the recording the screen as Weibe actually saw it. This is
the common way of filming a score submission.
In Billy’s video recording, he did not use MAME. Billy used a RGB to NTSC
Video Converter Board to record his footage. I still have the original
receipt for this board which I can post if asked . He paid $200 for the
board.
The way the video converter board works is that it TRANSLATES the
entirety of the RGB type signal, which is what originates from the DK
video game board, into NTSC when that signal is run through the
converter. The NTSC signal is what VCRs and TVs of all types used back in
the day. The entire reason Billy used a Video Converter was for direct feed
after MY expensive camera was once destroyed when it was knocked over.
Cameras were nearly $1000 in those days versus a safely out-of-the-way
$200 video converter board.
It is important to understand that the visual Billy saw on his DK monitor is
EXACTLY the same type RGB display that Weibe saw on his monitor (and
ultimately was recorded by his camera).The converted video offers NO
advantage to the player as the player never sees it during gameplay. The
converter signal is sent solely to the VCR.
The Converter hook-up works like this:
The video converter is connected directly to the video output of the DK
inverter board. The inverter receives the video from the DK board itself
NOT the Sanyo monitor that the player sees from his view. The converter
board does its job translating RGB to NTSC which goes to the VCR and is
recorded as the finalized media. There is NO possibility of an advantage to
the player using this method of recording.
The TRANSLATION of RGB to NTSC changes the video’s appearance and
characteristics of the signal (as in a CGA monitor) to a “more MAME
looking signal output”. However, if you want to make the argument this
Exhibit A - 000337
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 337/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

recorded video signal APPEARS more MAME looking, maybe it does.

Looking MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches
“cheating”.
Why would any player, nearly eight years ago, desire to put a MAME
computer in the back of a Nintendo cabinet and connect the output to a
Sanyo monitor? No one playing MAME had approached the 1 million mark
at that time. The accusation of using MAME doesn’t make sense. It would
be too much work. Anyone who could reach 1 Million on MAME could
undoubtedly reach MORE on an arcade machine. The alleged deception
does not make sense. The risk would not present enough gain over the
possibility of being discovered.

Even if …
multiple eyewitness testimony is discounted (which it should not be),
Even if …
TG would dismiss the video footage that was in their possession which is
TG’s responsibility to produce since they initially certified the record (if
they dismiss THIS record because they can’t “find the tape” then how
many thousands of other records/scores MUST they AUTOMATICALLY
dismiss upon any challenge?). TG has a responsibility to honor tapes that
were once in their custody, regardless of ownership changes, especially if
they cannot “find” a tape that was in their charge to protect in the
“archives”,
Even if …
the prescribed method of verification at that time was put aside (which
would be “changing the rules after the acceptance of proof”),
THE FACT REMAINS that the hook-up described here produces these
results and that alone is enough to prove, along with Billy’s ability in other
high scores, that cheating was not involved.
$5000 CHALLENGE
If ANYONE can disprove what I have stated within this explanation, not in
opinion, but in ACTUAL proof I will donate $5000 in their name to the
charity of their choice . We also will test/prove any discrepancies in
opinion in my shop on video. A contract will be provided if this option is
sought.
Regards
Robert Childs

TECHNICAL EXPLANATION

A TG member has made an accusation that Billy Mitchell used MAME

used. However his argument is weak for he either leaves out nor
considers that the Sanyo monitor used is known to have capacitor
problems in the vertical circuit (namely c407 (10uF, 160v) which often
causes a fold to the bottom half of a Horizontally mounted monitor.
Nor does he consider other plausible explanations such that the majority
of these games from that era were notorious for image burn on the face of
picture tubes and that most likely the picture tube was changed and the
donor tube’s yoke was either installed 180 degrees the wrong way and the
header connector was flipped to correct the orientation, or the yoke may
not have been wedged in correctly and the picture was off center, or that
the yoke was that of the donor monitor and was close enough to work
with that monitor chassis. (Please read //www.junknet.net/tube-swap-diy-part1)
That TG member made a comparison to his own 60 fps video shot with a
high definition Samsung S8 to Gleed’s direct feed captured at 60 fps
(which is assumed to be a direct digital recording in mp4), to a direct DK
board to video recorded on a 30 fps VHS tape which was then encoded
into an unknown video format. That TG member makes no mention of the
technology that is used to convert digital TTL RGB to analog low level
composite, nor does he mention the inferior quality and losses of a VHS
recording and how that might be problematic to his comparison.
The main issue here to consider is that TG member compares video
recorded in high definition to a video that was converted from TTL RGB to
low level composite video. Let’s explain the evidence and why it’s
important to keep Billy’s direct feed and type of recorded media in mind.
Billy’s direct feed was born out of a necessity to avoid people tripping over
a camera on a tripod pointed at the screen and I was also tired of hearing
“Rob watch the camera”. In the last few years cameras have become
cheaper and more lightweight, but the situation a dozen or so years ago
was not the same. Direct feed was a viable option. It's a very simple
process to wire and does not take much skill. To wire a DK machine to an
external display you would use an RGB to composite signal converter.

In the very early 2000s, Two Bit Score (a company that sold coin op video
accessories), sold such a device. It cost $199.00. This was a simple device
where you took standard positive digital TTL RGB video signal and a
composite negative sync from a standard 15.7 kHz video game and
converted them to a composite low level analog video signal that a TV or
VCR could display. The quality of this reproduction while acceptable, never
truly reproduced the original (please read this link to see note of this
known issue. //www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB-FAQ.html).

To make a connection to this RGB adapter from a Classic Nintendo coin op

you needed to invert the TTL output from the negative signal to a positive
signal. Please pay attention to the TTL acronym. TTL means Transistor-
Transistor Logic (current driven switching), which was the architecture of
integrated circuits of the time (1980’s). It was inefficient, slow, and bulky.
The negative signal that was generated from the board was fed into a
buffer transistor and then to a driver transistor that drove the individual R,
G, or B guns on the neck board of the monitor (Please search out and see
schematic online as I don’t have time to post I have a family to get back
to today).
Exhibit A - 000339
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 339/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In order to successfully output the correct colors to an RGB to composite

signal converter, you need to invert the colors. Billy’s machine utilized
Nintendo’s built in video inverter board, mounted stock above the
horizontal flyback transformer, to do that. Normally this board is wired in
“pass though” by default. With the movement of the output wire to this
board to the inverted pin header, the games image displayed white as
black and vice versa. This board is a very simple device composed of a
couple potentiometers, a few resistors, a couple capacitors, some diodes
for the power supply, and some 2N3904 NPN transistors. In short, the
video was inverted from one state to its opposite state with two
transistors: one for buffering, the other for inversion. Just by simply using
this board you introduced some delay due to the slow switching nature of
transistors. Now I bring this information to you for this reason: it is
possible to invert the video signal by either rewriting the color PROMs on a
stock board or by utilizing a CMOS 74HC IC with a few resistors and get
far superior results. For those who do not know CMOS (Complementary
Metal Oxide Semiconductor) is much faster than TTL. Since it is possible
to invert the original DKs by other means, which scheme did Gleed use for
his direct feed is not stated nor is it considered.
The adapter, used to make the video (from Two Bit Score), had the IC’s
number scratched off, so I can’t give you exact information on its
construction. This company was notorious for removing identifying
information from their products to prevent people from copying them.
However a quick google search will produce a popular IC, AD775, which is
probably what their board was built on (Please see data sheet for more
information-//www.analog.com/…/technical-doc…/data-
sheets/AD725.pdf).

Here is the important part. The simple explanation is that by inserting an

RGB signal into this device you introduce loss, delay and latency. This is a
by-product of the AD775 process. If you take a look at the IC’s block
diagram you’ll see the many processes that are utilized in order to convert
the signal to a low level video signal.

The simplest explanations of the AD725 conversion process are as follows.

If you simply follow each signal line in the function block diagram(get
online) you will see that each RGB color signal is fixed to an equal level,
inserted into an RGB (lumence matrix) to YUV (basically YCbCr colors),
encoding matrix. From there the Y signal is put in to a 3 pole low pass
pre-filter and a composite sync is added, the U and V signals are put to a
4 pole low pass filter to remove the harmonics of the switching modulation
and clamped down to a fixed level and then color burst vectors are added
to the U and V signals. The U and V signals are used to modulate a pair of
quadrature clocks (sine and cosine) at one-fourth the reference frequency
input 3.579 545 MHz for NTSC. In order to be time-aligned with the
filtered chrominance signal path, the luma signal must be delayed before
it is output. The AD725 uses a sampled delay line to achieve this delay.
A layman explanation of the inner works of the AD725 IC would simply
be: Signals are inserted, balanced, inverted, and filtered (where noise is
removed). In the case of the Y signal it is sampled and delayed in order to
Exhibit A - 000340
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 340/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

synchronize colors then again filter. In the case of U and V signal, the
combined signals are summed and then again filtered. The entire Y U and
V signal is then summed to produce the single composite output.

SUMMARY
To surmise what the converter board does in its simplest form: You put in
a signal, you balance the signals, you invert them, you filter them, you
delay, you filter them again, you add timing signals, and you sum them
again. This entire process distorts and adulterates the original input thus
no comparison can be made by recording the original RGB signal at 60fps
and then comparing that to that same signal that had been converted with
the AD725 and then recorded to a VCR (which has 3 MHz of video
bandwidth and horizontal resolution which is 240 lines per picture height).
Simple put: THE INFORMATION IS JUST NOT THERE! You are comparing
two unequal sources!

That concludes both the Layman and Technical explanation. Please take
time to examine the intricacy and accuracy. I have a DK machine along
with a two-bit score converter board,and VCR if you would like to see Billy
play another game on this setup and see the results this can be arranged
in my store in Fort Lauderdale .
//www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/2251-tbc-time-base.html

Thanks for Reading

Robert Childs with Steven Kleisath....
Arcade Game Sales
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

02-11-2018, 03:10 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

This is from my friend and colleague Robert Childs regarding the dispute.
There is a lot here, so please be patient with yourself, and when you have
time read with a open mind....

Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong Dispute my tech analysis

NORMALLY I do not get involved in disputes and arguments especially one

inclined.
In the comparison between Weibe’s video and Billy’s in the side by side,
the differences are apparent. The purpose here is to explain the
difference. Those unfamiliar with the explained method of hook-up to
record have raised an unnecessary firestorm of innuendo and accusation.
Said firestorm could easily have been avoided if Billy Mitchell had first
been asked instead of first being accused. This explanation and the more
detailed TECHNICAL explanation below will answer the claims of those
unfamiliar in this method of recording.
In Wiebe’s video, he used a camera on a tripod angled slightly behind him.
This showed on the recording the screen as Weibe actually saw it. This is
the common way of filming a score submission.
In Billy’s video recording, he did not use MAME. Billy used a RGB to NTSC
Video Converter Board to record his footage. I still have the original
receipt for this board which I can post if asked . He paid $200 for the
board.
The way the video converter board works is that it TRANSLATES the
entirety of the RGB type signal, which is what originates from the DK
video game board, into NTSC when that signal is run through the
converter. The NTSC signal is what VCRs and TVs of all types used back in
the day. The entire reason Billy used a Video Converter was for direct feed
after MY expensive camera was once destroyed when it was knocked over.
Cameras were nearly $1000 in those days versus a safely out-of-the-way
$200 video converter board.
It is important to understand that the visual Billy saw on his DK monitor is
EXACTLY the same type RGB display that Weibe saw on his monitor (and
ultimately was recorded by his camera).The converted video offers NO
advantage to the player as the player never sees it during gameplay. The
converter signal is sent solely to the VCR.
The Converter hook-up works like this:
The video converter is connected directly to the video output of the DK
inverter board. The inverter receives the video from the DK board itself
NOT the Sanyo monitor that the player sees from his view. The converter
board does its job translating RGB to NTSC which goes to the VCR and is
recorded as the finalized media. There is NO possibility of an advantage to
the player using this method of recording.
The TRANSLATION of RGB to NTSC changes the video’s appearance and
characteristics of the signal (as in a CGA monitor) to a “more MAME
looking signal output”. However, if you want to make the argument this
recorded video signal APPEARS more MAME looking, maybe it does.
Looking MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches
“cheating”.
Why would any player, nearly eight years ago, desire to put a MAME
computer in the back of a Nintendo cabinet and connect the output to a
Sanyo monitor? No one playing MAME had approached the 1 million mark
at that time. The accusation of using MAME doesn’t make sense. It would
be too much work. Anyone who could reach 1 Million on MAME could
undoubtedly reach MORE on an arcade machine. The alleged deception
does not make sense. The risk would not present enough gain over the
possibility of being discovered.

Exhibit A - 000342
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 342/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

What he doesn't understand is that how the signal is captured won't make the original arcade
hardware render the game like MAME. His entire theory hinges on a point that doesn't make
technical sense. Please find out his response to that. The original hardware acts in a very
specific way. The capture method won't make the game render completely different.

02-11-2018, 03:18 PM
Robert.F
jibarish

"""That TG member wrongly concludes that due to the rotation of the

image and its alignment to the left instead of the right, that MAME must
have been used. However his argument is weak for he either leaves out
nor considers that the Sanyo monitor used is known to have capacitor
problems in the vertical circuit (namely c407 (10uF, 160v) which often
causes a fold to the bottom half of a Horizontally mounted monitor. """

its call [COLOR=var(--ytd-video-primary-info-renderer-title-color, var(--yt-primary-text-

color))]vertical foldover on account the monitor mounted vertically... it still would have
ZERO effect;;;; on whatever video signel is being put in to it ... be it pcb or mame throw a vga
to rgbs converter , whatever being feeded to the monitor that what it will show ,,, just becuse
the monitor has [/COLOR]vertical foldover means nothing , where is this coming from steve
?
https://youtu.be/73hJsPslhaU

02-11-2018, 03:22 PM
DadsGlasses

Thanks for sharing this, Steven. Do you know, by any chance, if Robert actually read the
evidence against Billy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

This is from my friend and colleague Robert Childs regarding the dispute.
There is a lot here, so please be patient with yourself, and when you have
time read with a open mind....

Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong Dispute my tech analysis

NORMALLY I do not get involved in disputes and arguments especially one

Also below is posted a TECHNICAL explanation for those who are so

TECHNICAL EXPLANATION

A TG member has made an accusation that Billy Mitchell used MAME

instead of a legitimate and original Donkey Kong board. He assumed that
MAME was used based on comparisons of three sources that were not
equal. That TG member used Gleed’s direct video feed recorded at 60fps,
and used his own camera phone that recorded at 60fps, and compared it
to Billy’s direct feed video tape (30fps, non TBC (please read for more
information //www.digitalfaq.com/…/video-r…/2251-tbc-time-base.html)),
which was encoded to digital format, to make an assumption that cheating
was involved since Billy’s video does not behave as his standard. That TG
member wrongly concludes that due to the rotation of the image and its
alignment to the left instead of the right, that MAME must have been
used. However his argument is weak for he either leaves out nor
considers that the Sanyo monitor used is known to have capacitor
problems in the vertical circuit (namely c407 (10uF, 160v) which often
causes a fold to the bottom half of a Horizontally mounted monitor.
Nor does he consider other plausible explanations such that the majority
of these games from that era were notorious for image burn on the face of
picture tubes and that most likely the picture tube was changed and the
donor tube’s yoke was either installed 180 degrees the wrong way and the
header connector was flipped to correct the orientation, or the yoke may
not have been wedged in correctly and the picture was off center, or that
the yoke was that of the donor monitor and was close enough to work
Exhibit A - 000345
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 345/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

with that monitor chassis. (Please read //www.junknet.net/tube-swap-diy-part1)

That TG member made a comparison to his own 60 fps video shot with a
high definition Samsung S8 to Gleed’s direct feed captured at 60 fps
(which is assumed to be a direct digital recording in mp4), to a direct DK
board to video recorded on a 30 fps VHS tape which was then encoded
into an unknown video format. That TG member makes no mention of the
technology that is used to convert digital TTL RGB to analog low level
composite, nor does he mention the inferior quality and losses of a VHS
recording and how that might be problematic to his comparison.
The main issue here to consider is that TG member compares video
recorded in high definition to a video that was converted from TTL RGB to
low level composite video. Let’s explain the evidence and why it’s
important to keep Billy’s direct feed and type of recorded media in mind.
Billy’s direct feed was born out of a necessity to avoid people tripping over
a camera on a tripod pointed at the screen and I was also tired of hearing
“Rob watch the camera”. In the last few years cameras have become
cheaper and more lightweight, but the situation a dozen or so years ago
was not the same. Direct feed was a viable option. It's a very simple
process to wire and does not take much skill. To wire a DK machine to an
external display you would use an RGB to composite signal converter.

To make a connection to this RGB adapter from a Classic Nintendo coin op

In order to successfully output the correct colors to an RGB to composite

transistors: one for buffering, the other for inversion. Just by simply using
this board you introduced some delay due to the slow switching nature of
transistors. Now I bring this information to you for this reason: it is
possible to invert the video signal by either rewriting the color PROMs on a
stock board or by utilizing a CMOS 74HC IC with a few resistors and get
far superior results. For those who do not know CMOS (Complementary
Metal Oxide Semiconductor) is much faster than TTL. Since it is possible
to invert the original DKs by other means, which scheme did Gleed use for
his direct feed is not stated nor is it considered.
The adapter, used to make the video (from Two Bit Score), had the IC’s
number scratched off, so I can’t give you exact information on its
construction. This company was notorious for removing identifying
information from their products to prevent people from copying them.
However a quick google search will produce a popular IC, AD775, which is
probably what their board was built on (Please see data sheet for more
information-//www.analog.com/…/technical-doc…/data-
sheets/AD725.pdf).

Here is the important part. The simple explanation is that by inserting an

The simplest explanations of the AD725 conversion process are as follows.

If you simply follow each signal line in the function block diagram(get
online) you will see that each RGB color signal is fixed to an equal level,
inserted into an RGB (lumence matrix) to YUV (basically YCbCr colors),
encoding matrix. From there the Y signal is put in to a 3 pole low pass
pre-filter and a composite sync is added, the U and V signals are put to a
4 pole low pass filter to remove the harmonics of the switching modulation
and clamped down to a fixed level and then color burst vectors are added
to the U and V signals. The U and V signals are used to modulate a pair of
quadrature clocks (sine and cosine) at one-fourth the reference frequency
input 3.579 545 MHz for NTSC. In order to be time-aligned with the
filtered chrominance signal path, the luma signal must be delayed before
it is output. The AD725 uses a sampled delay line to achieve this delay.
A layman explanation of the inner works of the AD725 IC would simply
be: Signals are inserted, balanced, inverted, and filtered (where noise is
removed). In the case of the Y signal it is sampled and delayed in order to
synchronize colors then again filter. In the case of U and V signal, the
combined signals are summed and then again filtered. The entire Y U and
V signal is then summed to produce the single composite output.

SUMMARY
To surmise what the converter board does in its simplest form: You put in
a signal, you balance the signals, you invert them, you filter them, you
delay, you filter them again, you add timing signals, and you sum them
again. This entire process distorts and adulterates the original input thus
no comparison can be made by recording the original RGB signal at 60fps
and then comparing that to that same signal that had been converted with
Exhibit A - 000347
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 347/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the AD725 and then recorded to a VCR (which has 3 MHz of video
bandwidth and horizontal resolution which is 240 lines per picture height).
Simple put: THE INFORMATION IS JUST NOT THERE! You are comparing
two unequal sources!

Thanks for Reading

Robert Childs with Steven Kleisath....
Arcade Game Sales
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

02-11-2018, 03:26 PM
Robert.F

we have yet to see any video of the monitor in the cab....and yes direct feed wont show that ,,
but no mater the set up the pcb and mame from a PC will be recognized this has putty much
been establish , there no going back on that , but i like to see some prove this theory that
monitor and video eqwipmint with change how mame and PCB loads up the screen :) bring it
on

02-11-2018, 03:28 PM
Welp

This is the only part that matters.

Quote:

I have a DK machine along with a two-bit score converter board,and VCR

if you would like to see Billy play another game on this setup and see the
results this can be arranged in my store in Fort Lauderdale

There is no need for Billy to play a game. Simply show that the results of this setup will
produce screens that are identical to MAME, and Billy is cleared. A $5k bounty is
unnecessary.

02-11-2018, 03:31 PM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

In Billy’s video recording, he did not use MAME. Billy used a RGB to NTSC
Video Converter Board to record his footage.

Is it possible that both statements are true? Is it possible that Billy had a friend hook up a
direct feed to a VCR to record his attempts, he then played for several hours claiming
Exhibit he
A - 000348
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 348/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

broke records, then submitted the tapes of prerecorded MAME play?

02-11-2018, 03:31 PM
DadsGlasses

My question for Robert, through @maximumsteve , would be this:

If your claim is that your direct capture method caused distortion of the video how is it
possible that it randomly distorted it in such a way so that it happens to be exactly the way
MAME draws boards independent of capture method?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

Thanks for sharing this, Steven. Do you know, by any chance, if Robert actually read the
evidence against Billy?

02-11-2018, 03:36 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

This is the only part that matters.

[/FONT][/COLOR]
There is no need for Billy to play a game. Simply show that the results of this setup will
produce screens that are identical to MAME, and Billy is cleared. A $5k bounty is
unnecessary.

oh would you pls show us photos of this two-bit score converter (score WHAT SAY WHAT)
and maybe a video of it making a dk pcb looking like mame in action and pls show the whole
set up no tricks mister $5000 dollar man

02-11-2018, 03:38 PM
Ripper

I wonder if a DK 4 board set loads differently than a DK 2 board set.

02-11-2018, 03:39 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

I wonder if a DK 4 board set loads differently than a DK 2 board set.

I believe this was addressed earlier in the thread. The answer was “no”.

02-11-2018, 03:41 PM
Robert.F

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000349
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 349/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Ripper

I wonder if a DK 4 board set loads differently than a DK 2 board set.

if that was true watch it not , then Billy would disqwlafy him self using a 4 board stack

02-11-2018, 03:54 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

This is from my friend and colleague Robert Childs regarding the dispute.
There is a lot here, so please be patient with yourself, and when you have
time read with a open mind....Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong Dispute my tech
analysisNORMALLY I do not get involved in disputes and arguments
especially one as silly as this, however, as a witness to the event and
technician who performed the game/equipment set-up for Billy Mitchell, I
can attest Billy did not submit his record scores playing on MAME. It all
boils down to this. When you hook up a 1980s era Donkey Kong board to
a 2000s era RGB to NTSC converter board and then run it to a 1970s
technology VCR for recording God only knows what it will do to the signal.
Billy is my childhood friend, however, I am not writing this post because
Billy is my friend but rather it is the truth. The following is a LAYMAN’S
explanation of the hook-up used for each of Billy Mitchell’s scores Also
below is posted a TECHNICAL explanation for those who are so inclined. In
the comparison between Weibe’s video and Billy’s in the side by side, the
differences are apparent. The purpose here is to explain the difference.
Those unfamiliar with the explained method of hook-up to record have
raised an unnecessary firestorm of innuendo and accusation. Said
firestorm could easily have been avoided if Billy Mitchell had first been
asked instead of first being accused. This explanation and the more
detailed TECHNICAL explanation below will answer the claims of those
unfamiliar in this method of recording.In Wiebe’s video, he used a camera
on a tripod angled slightly behind him. This showed on the recording the
screen as Weibe actually saw it. This is the common way of filming a score
submission.In Billy’s video recording, he did not use MAME. Billy used a RGB
to NTSC Video Converter Board to record his footage. I still have the
original receipt for this board which I can post if asked . He paid $200 for
the board.The way the video converter board works is that it TRANSLATES
the entirety of the RGB type signal, which is what originates from the DK
video game board, into NTSC when that signal is run through the
converter. The NTSC signal is what VCRs and TVs of all types used back in
the day. The entire reason Billy used a Video Converter was for direct feed
after MY expensive camera was once destroyed when it was knocked over.
Cameras were nearly $1000 in those days versus a safely out-of-the-way
$200 video converter board.It is important to understand that the visual
Billy saw on his DK monitor is EXACTLY the same type RGB display that
Weibe saw on his monitor (and ultimately was recorded by his
camera).The converted video offers NO advantage to the player as the
player never sees it during gameplay. The converter signal is sent solely
to the VCR. The Converter hook-up works like this:The video converter is
connected directly to the video output of the DK inverter board. The
Exhibit A - 000350
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 350/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

inverter receives the video from the DK board itself NOT the Sanyo
monitor that the player sees from his view. The converter board does its
job translating RGB to NTSC which goes to the VCR and is recorded as the
finalized media. There is NO possibility of an advantage to the player
using this method of recording.The TRANSLATION of RGB to NTSC
changes the video’s appearance and characteristics of the signal (as in a
CGA monitor) to a “more MAME looking signal output”. However, if you
want to make the argument this recorded video signal APPEARS more
MAME looking, maybe it does. Looking MAME is not MAME, nor a violation
that even approaches “cheating”. Why would any player, nearly eight
years ago, desire to put a MAME computer in the back of a Nintendo
cabinet and connect the output to a Sanyo monitor? No one playing MAME
had approached the 1 million mark at that time. The accusation of using
MAME doesn’t make sense. It would be too much work. Anyone who could
reach 1 Million on MAME could undoubtedly reach MORE on an arcade
machine. The alleged deception does not make sense. The risk would not
present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.Even if …
multiple eyewitness testimony is discounted (which it should not be), Even
if … TG would dismiss the video footage that was in their possession which
is TG’s responsibility to produce since they initially certified the record (if
they dismiss THIS record because they can’t “find the tape” then how
many thousands of other records/scores MUST they AUTOMATICALLY
dismiss upon any challenge?). TG has a responsibility to honor tapes that
were once in their custody, regardless of ownership changes, especially if
they cannot “find” a tape that was in their charge to protect in the
“archives”,Even if … the prescribed method of verification at that time was
put aside (which would be “changing the rules after the acceptance of
proof”),THE FACT REMAINS that the hook-up described here produces
these results and that alone is enough to prove, along with Billy’s ability in
other high scores, that cheating was not involved.$5000 CHALLENGEIf
ANYONE can disprove what I have stated within this explanation, not in
opinion, but in ACTUAL proof I will donate $5000 in their name to the
charity of their choice . We also will test/prove any discrepancies in
opinion in my shop on video. A contract will be provided if this option is
sought. RegardsRobert ChildsTECHNICAL EXPLANATIONA TG member has
made an accusation that Billy Mitchell used MAME instead of a legitimate
and original Donkey Kong board. He assumed that MAME was used based
on comparisons of three sources that were not equal. That TG member
used Gleed’s direct video feed recorded at 60fps, and used his own
camera phone that recorded at 60fps, and compared it to Billy’s direct
feed video tape (30fps, non TBC (please read for more information
//www.digitalfaq.com/…/video-r…/2251-tbc-time-base.html)), which was
encoded to digital format, to make an assumption that cheating was
involved since Billy’s video does not behave as his standard. That TG
member wrongly concludes that due to the rotation of the image and its
alignment to the left instead of the right, that MAME must have been
used. However his argument is weak for he either leaves out nor
considers that the Sanyo monitor used is known to have capacitor
problems in the vertical circuit (namely c407 (10uF, 160v) which often
causes a fold to the bottom half of a Horizontally mounted monitor. Nor
does he consider other plausible explanations such that the majority of
Exhibit A - 000351
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 351/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

these games from that era were notorious for image burn on the face of
picture tubes and that most likely the picture tube was changed and the
donor tube’s yoke was either installed 180 degrees the wrong way and the
header connector was flipped to correct the orientation, or the yoke may
not have been wedged in correctly and the picture was off center, or that
the yoke was that of the donor monitor and was close enough to work
with that monitor chassis. (Please read //www.junknet.net/tube-swap-diy-
part1)That TG member made a comparison to his own 60 fps video shot
with a high definition Samsung S8 to Gleed’s direct feed captured at 60
fps (which is assumed to be a direct digital recording in mp4), to a direct
DK board to video recorded on a 30 fps VHS tape which was then encoded
into an unknown video format. That TG member makes no mention of the
technology that is used to convert digital TTL RGB to analog low level
composite, nor does he mention the inferior quality and losses of a VHS
recording and how that might be problematic to his comparison.The main
issue here to consider is that TG member compares video recorded in high
definition to a video that was converted from TTL RGB to low level
composite video. Let’s explain the evidence and why it’s important to keep
Billy’s direct feed and type of recorded media in mind.Billy’s direct feed
was born out of a necessity to avoid people tripping over a camera on a
tripod pointed at the screen and I was also tired of hearing “Rob watch the
camera”. In the last few years cameras have become cheaper and more
lightweight, but the situation a dozen or so years ago was not the same.
Direct feed was a viable option. It's a very simple process to wire and
does not take much skill. To wire a DK machine to an external display you
would use an RGB to composite signal converter.In the very early 2000s,
Two Bit Score (a company that sold coin op video accessories), sold such
a device. It cost $199.00. This was a simple device where you took
standard positive digital TTL RGB video signal and a composite negative
sync from a standard 15.7 kHz video game and converted them to a
composite low level analog video signal that a TV or VCR could display.
The quality of this reproduction while acceptable, never truly reproduced
the original (please read this link to see note of this known issue.
//www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB-FAQ.html).To make a connection to this RGB
adapter from a Classic Nintendo coin op you needed to invert the TTL
output from the negative signal to a positive signal. Please pay attention
to the TTL acronym. TTL means Transistor-Transistor Logic (current driven
switching), which was the architecture of integrated circuits of the time
(1980’s). It was inefficient, slow, and bulky. The negative signal that was
generated from the board was fed into a buffer transistor and then to a
driver transistor that drove the individual R, G, or B guns on the neck
board of the monitor (Please search out and see schematic online as I don’t
have time to post I have a family to get back to today).In order to
successfully output the correct colors to an RGB to composite signal
converter, you need to invert the colors. Billy’s machine utilized Nintendo’s
built in video inverter board, mounted stock above the horizontal flyback
transformer, to do that. Normally this board is wired in “pass though” by
default. With the movement of the output wire to this board to the
inverted pin header, the games image displayed white as black and vice
versa. This board is a very simple device composed of a couple
potentiometers, a few resistors, a couple capacitors, some diodes for the
Exhibit A - 000352
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 352/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

power supply, and some 2N3904 NPN transistors. In short, the video was
inverted from one state to its opposite state with two transistors: one for
buffering, the other for inversion. Just by simply using this board you
introduced some delay due to the slow switching nature of transistors.
Now I bring this information to you for this reason: it is possible to invert
the video signal by either rewriting the color PROMs on a stock board or
by utilizing a CMOS 74HC IC with a few resistors and get far superior
results. For those who do not know CMOS (Complementary Metal Oxide
Semiconductor) is much faster than TTL. Since it is possible to invert the
original DKs by other means, which scheme did Gleed use for his direct
feed is not stated nor is it considered.The adapter, used to make the video
(from Two Bit Score), had the IC’s number scratched off, so I can’t give
you exact information on its construction. This company was notorious for
removing identifying information from their products to prevent people
from copying them. However a quick google search will produce a popular
IC, AD775, which is probably what their board was built on (Please see
data sheet for more information-//www.analog.com/…/technical-
doc…/data-sheets/AD725.pdf).Here is the important part. The simple
explanation is that by inserting an RGB signal into this device you
introduce loss, delay and latency. This is a by-product of the AD775
process. If you take a look at the IC’s block diagram you’ll see the many
processes that are utilized in order to convert the signal to a low level
video signal.The simplest explanations of the AD725 conversion process
are as follows. If you simply follow each signal line in the function block
diagram(get online) you will see that each RGB color signal is fixed to an
equal level, inserted into an RGB (lumence matrix) to YUV (basically
YCbCr colors), encoding matrix. From there the Y signal is put in to a 3
pole low pass pre-filter and a composite sync is added, the U and V
signals are put to a 4 pole low pass filter to remove the harmonics of the
switching modulation and clamped down to a fixed level and then color
burst vectors are added to the U and V signals. The U and V signals are
used to modulate a pair of quadrature clocks (sine and cosine) at one-
fourth the reference frequency input 3.579 545 MHz for NTSC. In order to
be time-aligned with the filtered chrominance signal path, the luma signal
must be delayed before it is output. The AD725 uses a sampled delay line
to achieve this delay.A layman explanation of the inner works of the
AD725 IC would simply be: Signals are inserted, balanced, inverted, and
filtered (where noise is removed). In the case of the Y signal it is sampled
and delayed in order to synchronize colors then again filter. In the case of
U and V signal, the combined signals are summed and then again filtered.
The entire Y U and V signal is then summed to produce the single
composite output.SUMMARYTo surmise what the converter board does in
its simplest form: You put in a signal, you balance the signals, you invert
them, you filter them, you delay, you filter them again, you add timing
signals, and you sum them again. This entire process distorts and
adulterates the original input thus no comparison can be made by
recording the original RGB signal at 60fps and then comparing that to that
same signal that had been converted with the AD725 and then recorded
to a VCR (which has 3 MHz of video bandwidth and horizontal resolution
which is 240 lines per picture height). Simple put: THE INFORMATION IS
JUST NOT THERE! You are comparing two unequal sources!That concludes
Exhibit A - 000353
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 353/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

both the Layman and Technical explanation. Please take time to examine
the intricacy and accuracy. I have a DK machine along with a two-bit
score converter board,and VCR if you would like to see Billy play another
game on this setup and see the results this can be arranged in my store in
Fort Lauderdale .//www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/2251-tbc-time-
base.htmlThanks for Reading Robert Childs with Steven Kleisath....Arcade
Game SalesFort Lauderdale, Florida

Thank you, I'm not a tech and I'll take your word for most of what you say, but I fail to see
how anywhere in this long explanation you adressed the points actually made. I definitely
found it interesting that noone could figure out how to use a tripod and prevent people from
bumping into it, always fascinates me how things that are so easy to do nowadays were so
impossible back then. I'm also not sure what relevance billy's others scores have, but anyway
on to your explanation.lets assume all you say is true -- it probably is, I think you need to
reread the original argument. The issue wasnt simply things being distorted, or inverted, or
rotated, it was entirely wrong things being drawn, which coincidentally looked exactly like
MAME looks. So while I found that explanation interesting you were however countering
points that noone made.

02-11-2018, 04:05 PM
Welp

It's great to hear Robert Childs has the ability to replicate Billy's setup, and I look forward to
seeing him record a few boards on it. The great thing is there is no need at all for anyone to
take his, or anyone else's, word for it. Everything needed to sort out this mess is right at his
arcade, and I hope he'll put it together soon and upload the result.

02-11-2018, 04:09 PM
Ripper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

if that was true watch it not , then Billy would disqwlafy him self using a 4 board stack

True but it would eliminate any MAME talk at least.

02-11-2018, 04:15 PM
LMDAVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Why would any player, nearly eight years ago, desire to put a MAME
computer in the back of a Nintendo cabinet and connect the output to a
Sanyo monitor? No one playing MAME had approached the 1 million mark
at that time. The accusation of using MAME doesn’t make sense. It would
be too much work. Anyone who could reach 1 Million on MAME could
undoubtedly reach MORE on an arcade machine. The alleged deception
does not make sense. The risk would not present enough gain over the
possibility of being discovered.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it is believed Billy had a PC inside of a
arcade cabinet and played the game live, but that the tapes were made using MAME
Exhibit at a
A - 000354
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 354/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

previous time and passed off as the live performance. There were no true witnesses to the
games other than Todd/MD. Even Robert himself was home sleeping for the Dk Jr
performance and just took their words when he came in, along with Todd saying "If they don't
believe it all they have to do is look at the tape".

As for MAME vs Arcade, myself, along with a lot of others were very active in the DK
community back then (8 years ago) and up into recently (last couple of years), MAME scores
were higher than arcade, but that's beside the point.

But I know what's done is done, but given all of this technical converter boards descriptions,
etc...why didn't he just put a camera over his shoulder like everyone else? Why is it every
time Steve Wiebe made any type of public Donkey Kong performance for WR attempts, it
was preannouced, documented through streaming and camera, and updates given online while
he was playing the game.

I agree with others that if you demonstrate a standard DK arcade producing MAME frames
with that NTSC converter, that would shed some light on this.

02-11-2018, 04:33 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMDAVE

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it is believed Billy had a PC inside of a
arcade cabinet and played the game live, but that the tapes were made using MAME at a
previous time and passed off as the live performance.

Correct. This appears to be a distraction technique or at the very least a refusal to look at the
actual evidence.

02-11-2018, 04:52 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

I think we would absolutely like to see this setup in action. Direct feed recorded, along with
video of Billy playing (or anyone rally) the machine live so we can compare both videos
together.

02-11-2018, 05:41 PM
bjones

Why doesn't someone just recreate what is being stated as what might cause this and find out
instead of being internet scientists? If the type of capture card can be shared then the system
Exhibit A - 000355
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 355/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

can be recreated and tested in the real world.

02-11-2018, 05:53 PM
Ninglendo

Just wanted to add this to the discussion. I know it's already been mentioned a couple times
but here is a video. This was the required verification process that TG had for whenever
someone had a Donkey Kong record or submission. This is important because it shows you
the extreme lengths a person had to go through to get a score verified. Obviously, with all of
Billy's submissions he skipped over this entire process. That alone back in those days should
of had his submission DQ'd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg5ct3nrRzA&t=11135s

02-11-2018, 05:59 PM
bh_

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjones

If someone can provide me with the receipts I'll dutifully reconstruct the rig.

02-11-2018, 06:10 PM
LMDAVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg5ct3nrRzA&t=11135s

Well, back in either 2008-2009 there was too much skepticism over 1,000,000 pt DK games
submitted by tape that TG put a ceiling on Donkey Kong recording submissions. Anything
over 1 Million had to be done live only (with 2 TG refs present). This aggravated a lot of us
that were close to getting 1 million but didnt have the venue of trying live. The solution about
a year or less later was this special set of recording rules that was completely overblown, but
we all ended up just doing it because those were the rules and basically was told if you
wanted to submit a tape you had to go through these extensive checks just for DK...not any
other arcade game.

But....Billy's game was done live. So, these recording rules didn't apply.

02-11-2018, 06:19 PM
timmell
Exhibit A - 000356
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 356/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjones

I wonder if Ben Heck is busy?

02-11-2018, 06:21 PM
foddon

Also Robert Childs: "now the Donkey Kong record has been broken, taking the Donkey Kong
board out of the game and putting the Donkey Kong Jr board back in"... proceeds to take DK
Jr board out and put it back in. Later removes incriminating audio of this explanation from the
video. Yes, very unbiased and trustworthy witness.

Wonder what his defense is for that (surely not caused by a 70s vcr)? Or the incredible RNG
on each of Billy's runs?

02-11-2018, 06:38 PM
CWK

Don't think this one has been posted yet. Roy Shildt and Todd Rogers discussing Billy's
Scores
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v3lltxquS2Q

02-11-2018, 06:41 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWK

Don't think this one has been posted yet. Roy Shildt and Todd Rogers discussing Billy's
Scoreshttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v3lltxquS2Q

so much for "all anyone had to do was ask billy"

02-11-2018, 07:06 PM
Robert.F
What you mean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

so much for "all anyone had to do was ask billy"

what you mean ?

02-11-2018, 07:14 PM
Robert.F

I love Roy Shildts

02-11-2018, 07:16 PM
Exhibit A - 000357
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 357/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Robert.F
Roy Shildt`s got *****

https://youtu.be/v3lltxquS2Q?t=16m3s

02-11-2018, 07:28 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

what you mean ?

i mean people have been raising issue with this for a while and billy's only response is to call
people losers so the idea that this could've been avoided by just asking billy is just another,
um, dang, whats a polite word for "lie"?

02-11-2018, 07:32 PM
erockbrox

I think they just used MAME since they never had a real Donkey Kong arcade board.

They showed a DK Jr. board, but no actual DK board. So since they didn't have an actual DK
board they used MAME and said "***** it, nobody will know the difference".

02-11-2018, 08:16 PM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMDAVE

But....Billy's game was done live. So, these recording rules didn't apply.

Who were the 2 TG refs present for this score? Can somebody contact them and get
statements from them that we can get shared on this dispute thread?

Given the scrutiny this score is getting based on the other evidence available, I can only hope
that they have unimpeachable reputations.

02-11-2018, 08:44 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

Exhibit A - 000358
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 358/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Who were the 2 TG refs present for this score? Can somebody contact them and get
statements from them that we can get shared on this dispute thread?

Given the scrutiny this score is getting based on the other evidence available, I can only hope
that they have unimpeachable reputations.

Unimpeachable reputations. That's funny.

02-11-2018, 09:11 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

Who were the 2 TG refs present for this score? Can somebody contact them and get
statements from them that we can get shared on this dispute thread?

The 2 TG refs were Todd Rogers and Morning Dove, Billy's girlfriend at the time. I'm not
sure statements from them would be very credible though...

02-11-2018, 09:52 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

The 2 TG refs were Todd Rogers and Morning Dove, Billy's girlfriend at the time. I'm not
sure statements from them would be very credible though...

So you have one 'ref' with a clear conflict of interest, and another ref now banned from the
site for bogus records. Figures.

02-11-2018, 10:19 PM
erockbrox

When you watch the video of Billy right after he "set" the record you see Todd and Todd's
girlfriend (the two refs). Notice how when the camera is put on Todd's girlfriend that she
hides her face and walks away so that she can't be seen.

To me, this looks like she knows something and doesn't want anyone to know that she was
apart of this event. Watch the video again and pay close attention to her.

02-11-2018, 10:25 PM
Mitch Mitchell
Swap Footage Statement

Has Robert Childs' explained his deceptive dkjr pcb swap footage yet? Or has he just made
statements pertaining to converting rgb to ntsc?

02-11-2018, 10:46 PM
Snowflake
wondering about the monitor affecting the direct feed

So just curious, if defects with monitor can affect the direct feed, does that mean if I'm
recording something on a small TV, but then connect the VCR to a big TV and rewatch the
Exhibit A - 000359
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 359/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

tape that the image on the big TV wil still be small because the original recording was from a
small TV?

Just wanted to let Billy's team know thats what their so-called tech sounds like when he talks
about the monitor defects affecting the direct feed recording. As much as I"m all for
thoroughness I really hope Jace doesnt feel obliged to waste any money or time on testing the
newest wave of poppycock.

we went from "you're all a bunch of jealous losers", to "stop this now or I'll blackmail you so
hard it'll destroy you all", to "ok fine the evidence looks bad but dwayne did it", to "ok fine
dwayne didnt do it but let me rattle off a bunch of technical terms while making ridiculous
claims including but not limited to monitor defects affecting direct feed". I cant wait to see the
newest excuse they come up with tomorrow.

02-11-2018, 11:09 PM
bounty bob

Here's a different question.

Robert claims that the gameplay was recorded via direct feed connected from the monitor to a
vcr. In the infamous board swap video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k
shouldn't we see the cables connected to the monitor and some cables leaving the machine
and being connected to the VCR?

Also, after Billy had just 'beaten' the DK Jr record, there is another video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvdrEgk2l6g Where in this video is the VCR to which
the game is recording? Also, at the start of this video should we be able to see the room
camera which Billy claims was recording the room?

02-11-2018, 11:42 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I noticed this too. It seems like this latest bit is to pull back from the 'conspiracy' defense and
circle around to "These aren't the two droids you're looking for" (i. e. even though you see
MAME, it's not MAME).

02-11-2018, 11:46 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

So just curious, if defects with monitor can affect the direct feed, does that mean if I'm
recording something on a small TV, but then connect the VCR to a big TV and rewatch the
tape that the image on the big TV wil still be small because the originalExhibit
recordingAwas from a
- 000360
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 360/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

small TV?

I used to be help desk back in the day. The amount of people who called in wanting an
"HDMI splitter so they can have a dual monitor setup for more workspace" was staggering.
Even people who use technology all the time don't understand how it works and when trying
to explain things sound like a toddler.

02-12-2018, 12:29 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

Here's a different question.

Does anybody have that first video with the original audio instead of the youtube stuff they
used to cover up whatever they were saying?

02-12-2018, 12:43 AM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 50118

This is the toy we've been dealing with, btw.

02-12-2018, 12:55 AM
Jace Hall

Just want to drop a quick note for all interested participants:

Matters involving computer rasterization, NTSC signals, RGB signals, the specific technical
knowledge of how a VHS records (or any form of magnetic media), framerates, video
encoding and other forms of compression, video conversion, the technical differences
Exhibit and
A - 000361
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 361/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

implications between analog and digital, lines and refresh rates, color encoding, modulation,
field order, and colorimetry are all topics I am personally very familiar with and have worked
with numerous times on a professional level across my career.

There has been nothing discussed from a pure technical standpoint that I (and the TG
administrative team) do not personally and greatly understand.

While all relevant information is welcome, participants should be aware that it will be
impossible for any misinformation or random speculation provided to confuse or detract from
the issue at hand from our perspective.

This entire matter is 100% discernible and will conclude with absolute definitive
determinations that can be proven over and over again by anyone who would care to further
investigate the final findings when we eventually conclude this dispute with a decision.

Everyone's participation in this dispute is appreciated. We look forward to the continued

accumulation of evidence in this thread as we continue to do our own internal testing to
confirm or invalidate each relevant evidentiary piece of information in this dispute claim.

02-12-2018, 01:09 AM
Muerto

All I have been reading these last10+ pages is speculation - there have been some facts, but
not much.
The main evidence, like I see it, is to get a hold on the guy there hooked up the “direct
recording” from the PCB
Billy must know him, so it would be easy to find the guy - unless a direct recording was never
made!

02-12-2018, 02:40 AM
maximumsteve
From Carlos Piniero, SEGA Gameboard Tech in the late 90's/Early 2000's...

This is from Carlos Piniero, a SEGA Gameboard tech in the late 90's, early
2000's.....

"I was a game board tech for Sega in the late 90s and early 2000s. I
worked on board level repair of our gaming venue pinball machines to
building the cabinet/controllers for our classic games. Working the classic
games was ALWAYS tricky cause the pre-Jamma / Jamma boards always
expected an exact original monitor. Donkey Kong was a vertical CGA output
which the board was component tuned for the raster color monitor refresh
rates. And these older Raster monitors were hard to find when the
Internet was still growing in 1998. I can concur with the technical
explanation that has been posted.
Compared to the old pc running mame to the hdmi RasPi new Mame
output, the conversion technic would not work with explained setup cause
of the video frequently outputs on a computer VGA port.
Robert's explanation is how it would have to be done with an original
Donkey Kong board multi output."

02-12-2018, 04:05 AM
Oh_DeeR
Exhibit A - 000362
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 362/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

This is from Carlos Piniero, a SEGA Gameboard tech in the late 90's, early
2000's.....

This also seems to be a counter argument to a point that nobody actually made: it is assumed
(or pretended) that this dispute is about Billy Mitchell having performed this score live on a
physical cabinet running MAME. However, the evidence provided by the dispute author as
well as the evidence amassed throughout this thread suggests that the score was achieved
using MAME off-site and also with the use of save states. It is suggested and supported by
evidence that there was no live performance of this score in the first place.

As long as those central arguments are not addressed any further technical explanation of
signal loss / distortion / conversion is mere distraction from the core arguments.

02-12-2018, 04:57 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Just want to drop a quick note for all interested participants:

Matters involving computer rasterization, NTSC signals, RGB signals, the specific technical
knowledge of how a VHS records (or any form of magnetic media), framerates, video
encoding and other forms of compression, video conversion, the technical differences and
implications between analog and digital, lines and refresh rates, color encoding, modulation,
field order, and colorimetry are all topics I am personally very familiar with and have worked
with numerous times on a professional level across my career.

There has been nothing discussed from a pure technical standpoint that I (and the TG
administrative team) do not personally and greatly understand.

This is a nice change of pace compared to previous Twin Galaxies administrations. I seem to
remember The Powers That Be at Twin Galaxies in the past making technical calls on matters
they clearly didn't understand, like requiring (or talking about requiring) a Donkey Kong
machine to have an original Nintendo power supply, as if there's something magical/unique
about the voltages that Nintendo power supplies output.

All of this talk about the technicalities of converting ~15 KHz RGB to NTSC and recording it
with a VCR is nothing but obfuscation. Yes, you get a lot of information loss when doing that,
but it obviously doesn't magically transform it into something fundamentally different. For
example, bad TV reception might cause Harrison Ford in Raiders of the Lost Ark to look
fuzzy, but it won't transform him into, e.g., Tom Selleck. Likewise, converting/processing a
video signal from an original DK boardset won't magically transform it into a video signal
that draws the screen like MAME.

02-12-2018, 05:10 AM
DadsGlasses
Exhibit A - 000363
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 363/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Thank you @jac ehall for the detailed response from TG Admin.

Recently we received second hand statements from Robert Childes and Carlos Piniero.
Unfortunately Robert didn’t actually address the evidence against Billy. Carlos then “agreed
with Robert”. To an uneducated third party, it might appear that “experts” are confirming and
agreeing that the evidence against Billy is false. This is clearly NOT the case for anyone that
has actually examined the evidence and the argument.

Robert offers a $5000 bounty and claims to have all of the necessary equipment at his
disposal to exonerate Billy. My recommendation would be to keep the $5000, and prepare the
evidence himself. When it’s ready, post it here in the dispute thread.

It seems very clear that @TWIN GALAXIES respects hard evidence. Any technical
evidence provided here will be tested and either confirmed or denied.

02-12-2018, 05:21 AM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

...bad TV reception might cause Harrison Ford in Raiders of the Lost Ark to look fuzzy, but it
won't transform him into, e.g., Tom Selleck. Likewise, converting/processing a video signal
from an original DK boardset won't magically transform it into a video signal that draws the
screen like MAME.

This is an excellent lay analogy for the benefit of those that don't understand all the technical
details of the criticisms offered here attempting to delegitimize the evidence. The underlying
argument is utter nonsense.

02-12-2018, 05:25 AM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

Here's a different question. Robert claims that the gameplay was recorded via direct feed
connected from the monitor to a vcr. In the infamous board swap video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k shouldn't we see the cables connected to
the monitor and some cables leaving the machine and being connected to the VCR?

That is an excellent point and must be addressed.

02-12-2018, 05:32 AM
LMDAVE

Just for the record, page 1 of this thread, the original post has the board swap video with the
original audio before it was changed to opera music.

02-12-2018, 05:37 AM
IAmNerdJock
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000364
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 364/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Everyone's participation in this dispute is appreciated. We look forward to the continued
accumulation of evidence in this thread as we continue to do our own internal testing to
confirm or invalidate each relevant evidentiary piece of information in this dispute claim.

Can someone here just call Shigeru Miyamoto, so he can settle all of
this?

Attachment 50123

02-12-2018, 06:02 AM
thegamer1185

So I think I see what is happening here. So there are many truths coming out regarding this
dispute. Firstly, it was done using MAME. Arguing that point, or lack thereof is a waste of
time, that's why they aren't arguing it. They are trying to find any way to replicate it, which I
know enough and am not even close to an expert know you an image can't be changed until
after recording it. They could copy poorly, but that's about it. All changes are afterwards using
software. That's my simple minded take on, even if it's wrong.

There are a lot of people around Billy trying to attach themselves to his fame. I can't say for
sure but this looks like the I'm hanging with the popular kid in school in hopes I become more
popular. Or in this,maybe get in some these documentaries.

Lastly, I'm starting to think the technician that did the "rigging" actually did things properly.
He keeps saying he did it this way, now there is another technician backing him saying that's
how you do it. If you think about it, he is going the opposite way of the high school popular
guy statements and is trying to clear himself. Would you want your name attached to this
****? I wouldn't if I had nothing to do with what the evidence is suggesting. The guys job is
Arcade repairs, and to be trustworthy at that. Call me crazy, I believe heset up the rig exactly
how they wanted it to be, and the aftermath had nothing to do with him. It makes a lot of
sense.

We've all been in a scenario at one point where it was getting out of control and we all said,
nope I was here doing my job, I don't give a **** what was happening over there. I'm staying
out of it.

02-12-2018, 06:05 AM
thegamer1185

Essentially I'm saying he rigged it for direct capture, but Billy then used MAME as the "direct
capture" video. It fits if you ask me, and worked up to this dispute.

02-12-2018, 06:36 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Essentially I'm saying he rigged it for direct capture, but Billy then used MAME as the "direct
capture" video. It fits if you ask me, and worked up to this dispute.

Billy made a spliced together MAME recording.

He knew direct feed didn't record sound.
He put the MAME recording on a tape to cover up the splicing and explain the lack
Exhibit A - of sound
000365
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 365/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

in the gameplay.
He orchestrated an event with a direct feed arcade setup and performed.
The few folks there were kept back too far to see the score closely while he played (later this
was turned into a 100 people and everyone was watching which once put into print becomes
the mantra).
He "get's" the record, claims victory, and hands his bogus tape over to Todd (or whomever).
the rest, as they say, is history.

Bottom line, this is not a crazy scenario. If you read about master forgers and con men, this is
a pretty straightforward and simple con. It literally takes no one except Billy (and one other
person willing to stretch the "truth" in a seemingly inconsequential way)to pull off. Think
about it:

If we gave Todd the benefit of the doubt: I can imagine Billy calling him up one day and
saying "I've got this tape with this score I just got. It's direct feed. I'm going to submit it, but I
was thinking it'd be better for TG publicity-wise if I "do" it live. We won't be lying about the
score, we'll just stretch the truth about when I did it for the greater good" Todd says, "yeah
that makes sense."

Billy calls Robert and says "Hey, I need a direct feed machine set up, I'm going to do a live
DK attempt." Robert says , okay, and sets it up.

A bubble is set up around Billy while he's playing that doesn't allow folks to get too close for
distraction purposes. It's close enough that they can kind of see the screen, but far enough that
no one wants to stand there watching continuously for a couple hours. When no one else is
standing there, Billy says, "hey, I did it, I broke the record" all he would need to do to even
show the record on the screen is score 62,800 and then end the game since he supposedly
killed off his men.

There might have been 100 people there. It is an arcade after all with an event going on.
When I set my Dr. Mario arcade record at Funspot there were at least 200 people there that
day. There were only about 4 watching when I broke the record though.

All of this creates this "huge" group of people that according to camp Billy can't be in on a
conspiracy of this magnitude. And yet, when it gets broken down, it turns out it just takes
Billy creating a con, and Todd telling an "inconsequential" lie to fabricate this entire thing.
Everyone else could literally do what they were supposed to by the book (Robert's description
of his direct feed set up for example seems legit) and it would seem like the record was
broken that day.

02-12-2018, 06:52 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

There are a lot of people around Billy trying to attach themselves to his fame. I can't say for
Exhibit A - 000366
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 366/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

sure but this looks like the I'm hanging with the popular kid in school in hopes I become more
popular. Or in this,maybe get in some these documentaries.

We've all been in a scenario at one point where it was getting out of control and we all said,
nope I was here doing my job, I don't give a **** what was happening over there. I'm staying
out of it.

if the did things properly then how come he installed a dk jr board for billy to play donkey
kong on?

02-12-2018, 08:08 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

if the did things properly then how come he installed a dk jr board for billy to play donkey
kong on?

There are so many BS things going on I might as well attempt to answer it. Maybe Billy
"supplied" the boards and asked him do it. It's Rob's job, why would he care. Maybe Rob only
knows how to install the boards and can't identify boards. Maybe this was just a staged re-
enactment showing that boards where swapped "for evidence". You could name tons of them.
I'm being told we can't overlook testimonies and statements. So far we have Rob saying that's
you do it, and another guy confirming it. The above scenarios could all happen. Some of them
make more sense then others. Hell, the cab is a DK cab. For all we know, Billy and them
unplugged it, asked Rob to do it. Rob said sure, took the board out and put in an actual DK
board not paying attention to the board. I don't know, it's just a theory. Might as well cover all
these possibilities while they are happening since we are still waiting for a debunk of the
evidence being MAME or how it is possible to completely change the rendering of a game by
recording device.

Also, I like to think that there are some innocent people involved in this and didn't know what
they may be involved in. This whole thing just sucks.

02-12-2018, 08:19 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I'm being told we can't overlook testimonies and statements. So far we have Rob saying that's
you do it, and another guy confirming it. The above scenarios could all happen. Some of them
make more sense then others. Hell, the cab is a DK cab. For all we know, Billy and them
unplugged it, asked Rob to do it. Rob said sure, took the board out and put in an actual DK
board not paying attention to the board. I don't know, it's just a theory. Might as well cover all
these possibilities while they are happening since we are still waiting for a debunk of the
evidence being MAME or how it is possible to completely change the rendering of a game by
recording device.

Also, I like to think that there are some innocent people involved in this and didn't know what
they may be involved in. This whole thing just sucks.

Damn it, I really hate this no editing crap in disputes...Edits below.

Hell, the cab is a DK cab. For all we know, Billy and them unplugged it, asked Rob to do it.
Rob said sure, took the board out and put in an actual DKJR board not paying attention to the
board. I don't know, it's just a theory.

02-12-2018, 08:30 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Damn it, I really hate this no editing crap in disputes...Edits below.

its on the video, no need to theorize. He takes out a donkey kong junior and then puts the
same donkey junior board back in for the "board swap" between billys "dual world records"
on both games.

02-12-2018, 08:30 AM
Ninglendo

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't recall Morning Dove (Todd's girlfriend) ever being an
official ref you would send tapes to or have scores verified by. If anyone ever had any scores
verified by her please let us know. So the whole "two refs had to verify any 1 million point
scores at live events" in this situation would be wrong. That alone should have thrown the
whole live verification out the window in this situation. I think in this case they looked at
Todd's credibility and for some strange reason lumped his girlfriend in with that credibility he
had at that time. It's along the lines of just because this guy is a plumber doesn't mean his
friends are qualified to do the same job.

02-12-2018, 08:37 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMDAVE

Just for the record, page 1 of this thread, the original post has the board swap video with the
original audio before it was changed to opera music.
Exhibit A - 000368
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 368/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

LOL I Was searching for any videos about Billy Mitchel when Rob`s NEW video of the board
swap pop up ...i watch it carefully in hopes to see how Billy uses direct feed. But then i could
see it was the same board being swap in and out of the cab. I suspected cheating going on,
The part where Billy turns the camera on his self and for a min i think was intestinal in order
to give Rob a chance to hide the pcb and act like he`s pulling another one out).. I immediately
recorded the video then i contacted Robert Childs. I telling him i know he did and the video a
fake board swap. a few Hour`s later Rob didn't take the YouTube video down but remove the
audio of him implying there was a Donkey Kong PCB being taken out of the Cab. i sent my
copy of the original video to a few DK Players and Walter Day , Walters reaction was he no
longer has anything to do with TG and i should tell TG about it.. Anyhow hear we are today 8
years later , i have only one question for Robert Childs why you do it man! why did you
tamper with the evidence and try to cover it up Man? :) god chose of music Rob, Billy can
will use it as swan song when this all over. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k

02-12-2018, 08:58 AM
JJT_Defender

Any Video Game Player Especially if they Broke a World Record would Show The WR Time
or Score They Set on the Arcade Game without a doubt.
I JJT Johnny Have Adjudicated 14,865 Video Game Submission Every Single Twin Galaxy
Member Always 100% Showed a Close up of Their High Score or Fastest Time Especially a
World Record Performance on a Arcade Game.

It Look like it was for Show to Say that Billy did it in a Public Venue But Never Showing His
WR DK Score it Was Set up like a Magic Act A Slight of Hand I worked with Magician as a
Assistant this is My Perspective on what I saw in the So Called DK & DK Jr. Board Swap
Really Suspicious Indeed.

02-12-2018, 09:03 AM
JJT_Defender

Question to Any Twin Galaxy Members or Twin Galaxy Staff

Can Any Twin Galaxy Present the Actual Video Complete Game Play Of Billy Mitchell
Arcade Donkey Kong Points Hammer Allowed World Record Score at the Time of 1,062,800
So All Twin Galaxy Members Can See it to Verify?

If The Video of Billy Mitchell Arcade Donkey Kong Points Hammer Allowed World Record
Score at the Time of 1,062,800 Shows that
Billy Actually Played At Boomers Amusement Park

This is What Would Be on the Video Without Question I been their Many Times then their
would be Colored Lights, Sounds Of Arcade Games, Music Sounds, Sounds of People
Walking By or Near, Announcements on the Loud Speaker, Kids Playing & Laughing.

If this is Not on Billy's Arcade Donkey Kong Game Play Then without a doubt Billy Never
Ever Played Their Simple As That.

02-12-2018, 09:53 AM
Robert.F
Roy Shildts Todd Rogers

This is Roy Shildts Clip from his "DK MC Conspiriacy pt6" video,, at the video hall of fame
Aug 7th 2010 talking with Todd Rogers and asking questions about boomers....
Exhibit This was
A - 000369
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 369/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

posted earlier in the thread but maybe a few you miss it ,, its cued up at the start of Todd
inteview by Roy :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKTK...ature=youtu.be

02-12-2018, 10:05 AM
starcrytas

With the evidence provided so far, does TG have an estimated time on when this dispute will
end?
Or will this dispute DRAG on like that other one?

02-12-2018, 10:35 AM
Robert.F
Good question

Good question : the only thing i can see holding this up (to be fair) is Jace conditioning his
own investigation on the mame vs pcb issue in Billy Mitchel's tapes and giving Billy Time to
respond (or s i like to call it give him enough rope to hang himself so he cant deny it later
saying he was farm) get it fram get it get it? that`s a pun ,, anyhow ,,, Now just on my own
thoughts if i was Jace, knowing Bill is A Big name in gaming circles and this dispute; will
bring a lot of attention in media circles for TG ... I would milk it for all the free press i could
as long as i could , then drop the hammer on Billy and milk it some more :)

"There's no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary"

Brendan Behan Irish author & dramatist (1923 - 1964)

02-12-2018, 11:44 AM
Marcade

I just got off the phone with my good friend, Al Gore.

And he swears to it, that Billy Mitchell is responsible for global warming!

02-12-2018, 11:52 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

I just got off the phone with my good friend, Al Gore.

And he swears to it, that Billy Mitchell is responsible for global warming!

Be that as it may, Billy put America on the map. Oh sure it existed before him, and lots of
peole to this day who never heard his name still love america regardless, even still without
him America would collapse. Respect your history

(if you think that sounds ridiculous just cause billy wears a US tie then replace "America"
with donkey kong just because faked out some scores and get himself into an obscure movie)

02-12-2018, 12:04 PM
Ripper

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000370
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 370/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Marcade

I just got off the phone with my good friend, Al Gore.

And he swears to it, that Billy Mitchell is responsible for global warming!

Did Billy use MAME when he created global warming?

02-12-2018, 12:07 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

Did Billy use MAME when he created global warming?

If he messed up he could at least go back and redo it until he got it right.

02-12-2018, 02:38 PM
Mitch Mitchell
Interesting

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

This is Roy Shildts Clip from his "DK MC Conspiriacy pt6" video,, at the video hall of fame
Aug 7th 2010 talking with Todd Rogers and asking questions about boomers.... This was
posted earlier in the thread but maybe a few you miss it ,, its cued up at the start of Todd
inteview by Roy :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKTK...ature=youtu.be

Todd gives an interesting account, he says Billy wasnt at Boomer's that day to break the
record; huh. I wonder how that played out with needing a dk machine present as the arcade
didnt have a dk cabinet, because Billy stated he had to have the arcade locate a machine ahead
of time...

02-12-2018, 03:51 PM
YesAffinity

For further analysis and review, for anybody that wants to. I've been posting this stuff only at
DK Forums, and I think many of you are tuned in to that thread also, but also wanted to put it
in the official record here. I have made many attempts at replication of what the setup could
have been, in either a arcade direct feed or a MAME direct feed. Some liberties have been
taken in assuming how the video would have been handled once committed to a VHS tape,
and some other scenarios/configurations. We now have the statement from Robert Childs on
what the direct feed from arcade setup allegedly was, and it pretty much jibes with what how
I was approaching things. The RGB to NTSC encoders and the inverters may not be identical,
between the alleged setup and mine, and that may warrant some additional analysis and/or
recreation.

I am offering these in the interest of impartiality. Wherever there is a DKF link included, I
took frame-by-frame screenshots using VLC, and compiled them into the progressive collages
you will find at each link. These were taken at random, from as many boards on each of the
various videos as possible, but I did get lazy on some of them. By saying I got lazy, I should
qualify that I spent the better part of Friday afternoon through yesterday (Sunday) afternoon
compiling all of this, with not a lot of sleep. I offer some opinions at some of the links, but
encourage anybody interested in analyzing the videos, frames, etc., to do so impartially.
Exhibit A - 000371
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 371/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I hope this is useful. I will be recording MAME CRT and Arcade CRT at 60fps with a camera
that is capable of 60fps, at Jace Hall's request. I hope to do that and get it uploaded tonight.

Donkey Kong Arcade - Direct Feed to VCR Direct feed, composite out to VCR recording
Yes, the image quality is garbage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk-RW9K_vF0&t=91s
http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.msg33647#msg33647

Donkey Kong Arcade - Direct Feed Recorded on VHS, Captured at 29.97fps

Taking a different approach, I dug out an old USB composite/s-video capture device. Using
the same VHS recording of a direct feed composite output from DK arcade hardware, I then
played back directly from the VCR to the USB capture device. The video was encoded with
MPEG-2, and captured at 29.97 fps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XbB0d3LDhY&t=290s
//donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.msg33654#msg33654

DK MAME CRT captured with phone camera, then transcoded

Phone camera live streams MAME CRT at 640x480/30. The stream is captured by OBS at
60fps, to avoid OBS bottlenecking or having influence on the video. The captured stream
video is then transcoded w/ VLC at the video resolution, framerate and bitrate of the Billy M
1.05 video currently on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKE...). This was an
attempt to:
1) Somewhat recreate a camcorder recording
2) Transcode it to the same format of the above linked video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywu8y89CpeI&t=3s
//donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.msg33664#msg33664

DK MAME - phone camera recording LCD

MAME PC is outputting composite direct feed to a VCR for recording. I recorded the LCD
screen connected to the VCR with my phone camera, at 640x480/30fp, while the VCR was
recording. MediaInfo identifies this video as being NTSC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9XwZa8TRKk
//donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.msg33663#msg33663

DK MAME composite direct feed recorded with VCR, captured to PC

Video was direct fed from my MAME PC to a VCR and recorded to a VHS tape. The VCR
was then played back to Happauge PVR USB capture device. The stream was captured as
MPEG-2, 720x480 @ 29.97 fps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlmwEbKpDRg&t=141s
//donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.msg33666#msg33666

DK Arcade - Webcam Capturing Sanyo 20EZ, Video File Transcoded

This is another effort to replicate a camcorder recording. My webcam captured the DK arcade
screen at 720x480/30fps. This file was then transcoded to the resolution, bitrate, framerate
and compression type of this video of Billy’s 1.05M run (https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=Y0ZKE...).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUb7H0DMv5o
//donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.msg33667#msg33667

DK Arcade - Webcam Capturing Sanyo 20EZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HftSTw9wC8&t=4s

DK MAME CRT recorded with phone at 720p30, no post processing

Exhibit A - 000372
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 372/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0upbIdGW3XA&t=30s

DK MAME composite direct feed to VCR - 60fps capture from VHS playback
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrkaw9qhiTI&t=7s[/h]

02-12-2018, 03:58 PM
YesAffinity

One last note - if you dig around on my youtube uploads, you may find 1080p60 recordings
of the MAME CRT and Arcade CRT screens already uploaded from yesterday. Jace
commented on these, with some concerns about the ability of my Samsung S8 to adequately
capture at 1080p60. For this reason, I will be using a different camera (semi high-end
consumer level camera - Nokia Finepix P500), that is capable of 720p60 video recording, and
will be uploading that.

02-12-2018, 04:32 PM
DadsGlasses

@YesAffinity thanks for sharing these links, Chris.

02-12-2018, 04:32 PM
Robert.F
I Am Ban

I Am Ban DK Forums :)

02-12-2018, 07:23 PM
Robert.F

Sorry if i`m getting a Little off topic here, The evadints has been a bit shocking rally never in
a million years would i think Billy Mitchel would be a to proponent to MAME... But it seams
to be.. A realty some must have face and meany have embrace... iv lost my train of thought ,
oh yeah now i remember , So with the emergent`s the jammyyy king of kong part 2 , or so i
have hurd interest me... Who can pls tell me or imagine under what scenario will this movie
be base a pawn ?

02-12-2018, 07:26 PM
Robert.F

And will there be any hard ship with in this movie that will tug on the heart strings to the
point it will make you cry

02-12-2018, 08:56 PM
Dwayne Richard
what im not responsible for the collapse of billy mitchell's house of cards? how can that be!

After walking around with a big head for awhile being the most clever person in the world. Of
course i'm not responsible for Bill's tapes.

One thing people need to be aware of is bill has the original's he never sent in an original.
Look at the scene from kok with walter and bill discussing quality of the tape he sent to brian
kuh. It is alway's a copy or a copy of a copy. I got copies from walter. The referees sent the
tapes back to him he had them duplicated for the people involved and sent out.

Exhibit A - 000373
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 373/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I sent some email's off to a few people besides tg about the tapes, I was authorized to have all
the ones available at the time to investigate. A number of referee's were helping me, but it was
really to look at weibe's stuff. We did discover cheating but it was no where near the level of
bill's fraud.

Once the dk community started to grow and more players beyond the two clowns of kong
were accessible i continued to share the material for further scrutiny and examination. I didn't
think it would finally get to the point it has now technically. We all know Hank Chein was the
first to discover the problems in Bill's dk play never mind how it was recorded. It took me
abit to overcome my bias but i did realize what he was telling me.

I knew for sure simply by how bill played at every kong off. I told rick fothergill that if bill
doesn't play the way he did on his tapes the tapes are bogus. What you are seeing is a hacked
together attempt to get a million points without knowing how to do it actually. The problem of
seeing is believing terms of methodology of play you think well if the game didn't kill him he
didn't deserve to die. Those tapes are total reckless play. Played over and over to stay alive
and compound a score. Grouping barrels on level 3 to use the hammer is not away to get a
million points and a killscreen but certain death by level 6 at best.

I was Bill's only hope but i saw through the bull**** and lies. He never thought i would
figure it out. But i did with help from hank and all the dk community to expose bogus scores.
Unlike Bill i have no problem asking for help when needed. I have strong opinion's but that
doesn't mean i cannot change my mind after further education.

As far as weibe goes he is still a liar and a fraud for not telling the truth about the kok. A
million points in public doesn't make up for the lies. All of them were in on the joke Bill,
Walter and weibe. They all made alot of cash promoting the bull**** and real fragmented the
community.

I sent the tapes i got from walter to Jace today and the story should be ending soon.

As far as the 1050 goes. I got a call direct from Bill moments after he supposedly got the
score at the convention. The first thing he said to me was, "do you believe in god, do you
believe in god, I got the score on my second game. I got a million fifty thousand." That is real
odd language for Bill. I have never had a serious theological discussion with him in my life
and beat told second hand he thinks i'm the devil now.

Todd sent me that tape right after it was done so i didn't have possession of it by illegitimate
means. People forget i am recognized as the best player in classic games so that is why i was
given this task. Now they are sorry they asked me but it is what is.

I also sent in a couple tapes to consider looking into Bill's pacman fraud. I got them from
Robert when he gave me a box of tapes he was gonna throw out that had my joust 2. It was
really lucky i got them and they were not lost. Billy was never the best at anything he just
never had any competition. He lost all his scores and never will get them back because he isn't
good enough, which is a problem for an ego so invested in this triviality.

Knowing what he did to cover up the real pacman story not surprised at all now he had to go
lower to be a paper champ on dk.

dwayne

02-12-2018, 09:28 PM
thegamer1185
Exhibit A - 000374
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 374/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Boy, I called him having the original copies a few posts back didn't I? I'll hold off on really
exploding about this possibility if he really does have the original tapes and he has let this
entire thing become essentially an "attack" based on the data available. Turns out the possible
"witch hunt" (**** that phrase) may have been Billy towards TG?? Like I said, I'll hold off
until this is confirmed or not.

02-12-2018, 09:46 PM
Snowflake

Does TG have any of Billy's tapes for any games? I ask, because if it can be shown billy
submitted copies in the past and not originals it makes it easier to believe Dwayne. Dont get
me wrong, i personally believe Dwayne right now in light of everything else, but when team
billy accuses dwayne of holding onto the original it'd be good to have some sort of pattern to
look at to know whom to believe. If billy had a history of submitting copies and not originals
that certainly will back up the claim that never billy never sent in the original for this one
either. not proof, but it should be enough for any reasonable person.

02-12-2018, 11:29 PM
Jace Hall

Looking for further information:

As part of our investigation we have been examining this video closely to either confirm or
invalidate some assertions that have been made regarding the content presented in this dispute
claim.

Exhibit A - 000375
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 375/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Dispute: Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hamm - 1,062,800

Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Color Black Transparency Opaque
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1135817 Copy

Exhibit A - 000376
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 376/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Aside from the DK/DK jr board swap issue itself, which we are looking closely at, we have
been thus far been unable to locate any wiring or hardware associated with direct-feed
recording in this video.

We have closely examined the unplugging of each connection demonstrated in the video and
we have been able to account for each line being disconnected via comparison. Since all lines
are accounted for, we have so far been unable to discern any direct-feed line splits,
modifications, or any other manner in which a direct-feed video could have been produced
from the unplugged connections depicted.

However, it would be helpful if others are able to confirm this finding or invalidate this
finding and post the results into this dispute thread for our review.

We have not made a final determination in this matter, but in the interest of being
comprehensive we wanted to ask if any 3rd parties have investigated this aspect already, and
if so, ask for that information to be added to the evidence pool for further review.

Thank you.

02-13-2018, 12:24 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

He knew direct feed didn't record sound.

Minor point: yes, it can. My Driver submissions currently in the queue are testament, just
depends on the equipment used.

02-13-2018, 12:29 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

I've not examined this particular footage but I can state that the vast majority of submissions
via TGSAP could have had a subversive video feed from elsewhere. Of course, this neither
proves nor disproves anything related to the dispute but camera angles are very easy to
manipulate in this fashion.

02-13-2018, 12:39 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Looking for further information:
Exhibit A - 000377
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 377/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

MaximumSteve posted the response from Robert Childs stating that the direct feed was
connected to the machine at the video convertor, so you just need to concentrate on that area,
if it is shown on the video.

From MaximumSteve post:

The Converter hook-up works like this:
The video converter is connected directly to the video output of the DK
inverter board. The inverter receives the video from the DK board itself
NOT the Sanyo monitor that the player sees from his view.

02-13-2018, 01:10 AM
erockbrox

I don't even know why these videos:

- the board swap video

- moments after setting the DK Jr. world record video

even exist at all. I honestly would have never uploaded these videos as it seems they cause
more harm to the credibility of the scores than good. I mean, if Billy was trying to hide
evidence, he did a bad job at allowing these videos to surface on the internet.

Also if Billy can submit a score with video, but no audio then can I submit a score with no
video and only audio. Like seriously, what if submitted a score that was nothing but audio?
Would that count?

02-13-2018, 01:15 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Looking for further information:
We have closely examined the unplugging of each connection demonstrated in the video and
we have been able to account for each line being disconnected via comparison. Since all lines
are accounted for, we have so far been unable to discern any direct-feed line splits,
modifications, or any other manner in which a direct-feed video could have been produced
from the unplugged connections depicted.

However, it would be helpful if others are able to confirm this finding or invalidate this
finding and post the results into this dispute thread for our review.

A direct-feed recording from a classic Nintendo cabinet such as Donkey Kong would not split
off from the connections at the boardset, but rather, it would plug into the unused "invert out"
header on the color inverter board, which is mounted on the flyback transformer cage of the
monitor:

Exhibit A - 000378
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 378/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://i.imgur.com/i8jclaK.jpg

This is not only the most straightforward way of doing it, but Robert Childs, in his lengthy
post on this thread, said that that's how he did it. So that's where to look for a direct-feed
connection, though that area doesn't appear to be visible in the video. It seems that even
without being able to see the color inverter board, if Childs really did what he said he did, you
should be able to see an extra cable / wire bundle coming out of the back of the cabinet.

02-13-2018, 01:26 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

From MaximumSteve post:

Yes, this is why we have some confusion when examining the video. You can clearly see the
video display outputs being disconnected and there is no splice or deviation to that connection
that we can discern in any way.

For a direct feed to exist, the initial signals must come from the PCB and then be routed to the
conversion process. In order to do this and also have the DK CRT display simultaneously,
both the CRT and the direct feed must be receiving signals at the same time. We believe that
this would result in additional wiring to be present and visible at the PCB level, or at the very
least within the cabinet in near proximity to the PCB.

Perhaps @YesAffinity might take a picture of his DK PCB to illustrate since he is set up for
direct feed.

02-13-2018, 01:30 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We believe that this would result in additional wiring to be present and visible at the PCB
level, or at the very least within the cabinet in near proximity to the PCB.

See my post and picture above. The stock color inverter board, which is mounted on the
flyback transformer cage, acts as both a video signal splitter and a color inverter. That is
where the RGB video signal is being split.

02-13-2018, 01:38 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000379
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 379/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

https://i.imgur.com/i8jclaK.jpg

Yes you are correct. This would be the easiest way, but so far we have not been able to
identify any cable coming out of the back of the cabinet to support this either.

02-13-2018, 01:43 AM
Dwayne Richard
direct feed

That was another big thing that got Hank worked up. No direct feed equipment in the video. I
asked todd about that when we were still talking and he had nothing to say.

02-13-2018, 01:58 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Yes you are correct. This would be the easiest way, but so far we have not been able to
identify any cable coming out of the back of the cabinet to support this either.

I don't see one either, though I suppose it's possible to place the RGB-to-NTSC converter and
VCR inside the cabinet, which would allow you to put the door back on the cabinet. Donkey
Kong and other classic Nintendo cabinets have an AC outlet inside the cabinet which you
could plug a VCR into, along with a wall wart for the RGB-to-NTSC converter. Normally
both of the outlets are occupied (the monitor and the marquee lamp fixture plug into it, but
that's easily solved with a dime-a-dozen power strip. By default it is only 100 VAC though,
which is the Japanese power standard (a big stepdown transformer brings the 120 VAC mains
down to 100 VAC; if you plug a Nintendo/Sanyo monitor directly into 120 VAC you'll fry it
in short order). I don't know if a typical U.S. VCR will run on 100 VAC or not, though there
is also a terminal block in there where you can easily tap into straight 120 VAC:

https://i.imgur.com/VaHcdB7.jpg

02-13-2018, 03:31 AM
The Evener

It may be possible, but it seems improbable. The bottom of cabinets are not space-friendly
places - it's a loaner cab, and if the issue is getting access to power, they'd just as easily run an
extension cord from an outlet outside the machine. As well, I don't see any secondary light
sources from within the cab that would highlight the presence of additional equipment like a
VCR. I would also think you'd want to have clear access to the VCR during game play, which
isn't possible from within the cabinet. As well, isn't there an interlock switch on DK
Exhibit cabinets
A - 000380
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 380/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

for the back door?

Ultimately, on the video Robert fires up DK Junior, and then the camera pulls out to show
Billy, as Robert says on camera "go get the high score," or something to that effect. I don't see
any plain reason why the intended audience of this video should believe that after stopping
the video, Robert went back into the cabinet to either complete set up of the direct feed or
replaced the back door.

02-13-2018, 04:08 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

It may be possible, but it seems improbable.

I know. It would be a pain. The floor of the cabinet is cluttered with the power supply and
stepdown transformer. There's some floor space behind those things, but you'd have to lean
way in there. It would be easier with a camcorder that has a composite video input. I don't
think this is an important issue either way though. If the screen is being drawn like MAME
then it is MAME, regardless of any of the side issues.

Quote:

The bottom of cabinets are not space-friendly places - it's a loaner cab, and if the issue is
getting access to power, they'd just as easily run an extension cord from an outlet outside the
machine. As well, I don't see any secondary light sources from within the cab that would
highlight the presence of additional equipment like a VCR. I would also think you'd want to
have clear access to the VCR during game play, which isn't possible from within the cabinet.
As well, isn't there an interlock switch on DK cabinets for the back door?

As far as I know, classic Nintendo cabinets never had an interlock switch, though it wouldn't
matter either way. Interlock switches are made so that they can be manually switched on even
if the door is off, plus many of the cabinets that did come with them have long since had them
removed and bypassed; my Missile Command cabinet for example.

02-13-2018, 05:02 AM
Robert.F
Iv Try

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Looking for further information:

As part of our investigation we have been examining this video closely to either confirm or
invalidate some assertions that have been made regarding the content presented in this dispute
claim.

Exhibit A - 000381
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 381/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Dispute: Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hamm - 1,062,800

Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Color Black Transparency Opaque
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1135817 Copy

Exhibit A - 000382
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 382/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

However, it would be helpful if others are able to confirm this finding or invalidate this
finding and post the results into this dispute thread for our review.

Thank you.

Iv own a few Nintendo cab`s, one being a Donkey Kong with the multi wire system and I`m
vary well acquainted with the wire harness size and color. I have look at this video over and
over and can not see anything out of the ordinary in terms of extra wire`s that are not original.
The white video ribbon cable shows no sighs of being splice and the cable go`s up to the
monitor as it should and disappears out of sight ,,, I can see no evidence of direct feed.

02-13-2018, 05:05 AM
LMDAVE

Not sure if this has been focused on or not or related, but when the second board is pulled out,
what is the laptop on the table with some converter box next to it? Hard to capture what it is,
or even identify whats on the screen.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL215.../413774653.jpg

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL215.../413774643.jpg

02-13-2018, 05:22 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMDAVE

[IMG]//pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/413774653.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]//pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/413774643.jpg[/IMG]

Interesting question - we know though that Robert's direct feed set up did not require use of a
laptop.

02-13-2018, 05:36 AM
Robert.F Exhibit A - 000383
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 383/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

hay

hay , yeah Dave iv notice that thing to ,, by the shape and color it looks like some kinda router
box , iv never seen RGBS to component or vga converter like that looks like that one on the
market and it dose seam to be quite large to be one , the cables going to it are to fat looking as
well

....there is one other thing i forgot to talk about was; you can see Rob taking the back door off
the back of the cab in the video.
this would mean the only way to route cables in and out of the cab with the door on would be
, throw a hole in the cab or throw the ventilation hole in the back of the door ,, If a cable was
going throw the ventilation hole then you have to be care full opening and closing the door
and have sufficient amount of cable length to do this. The other scenario is having a hole that
was drill throw the cab, watch i dont think the owner of the cab would like this :)

02-13-2018, 06:45 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

do you really think someone who thinks monitor burn in can affect direct feed recording
would be able to set that all up? I'd like to suggest none of us help robert and billy come up
with excuses. While some of us may be able to come up with enough plausible deniability, if
we instead let them do the explaninng they'll surely further expose themselves.

02-13-2018, 06:51 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Yes you are correct. This would be the easiest way, but so far we have not been able to
identify any cable coming out of the back of the cabinet to support this either.

Because he didn't use direct capture. He used MAME. You are looking for something that
isn't there. It's not even a needle in haystack, it's a just a haystack. I would focus more on
these so called original tapes....or the fact that everyone has been lied to regarding the original
tapes actually being in TGs hands, essentially blaming TG for not having the evidence it
needs to prove the score possible. Feels like a dirty cop getting caught for tampering with
evidence and the suspect being set free because of it. You know, the deception part. Good for
TG for being incredibly thorough, but I think you've reached the extent Exhibit
of what you
A - need to
000384
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 384/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

do regarding the cabinets. I mean, you are looking for things that aren't there. Think you've
done a pretty thorough job, haha.

02-13-2018, 06:57 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMDAVE

[IMG]//pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/413774653.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]//pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/413774643.jpg[/IMG]

I'll take a stab at this one. Could the video from the computer be the MAME game he had
already played, being sent to the cabinet via wires making it appear to be direct capturing
when it may have in fact been displaying? Making it appear that Billy was "playing"? I can
hook my computer up to my TV just using an HDMI cable and nobody would know the
difference. It would have a very solid look for the passer by-ers of him using direct feed.

02-13-2018, 07:18 AM
YesAffinity

Here is my direct feed setup in the cab:

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...24950#msg24950

It is fundamentally different from the alleged one used by Billy, in that mine pulls A/V and
power for the conversion devices from the unused edge connector of the 2-board stack. I used
a 44-pin edge connector from Mike's Arcade and soldered lines to their appropriate
connections on the edge connector. The only exception is power for the Mike's Arcade
inverter/sound amp board, which gets power directly from the PSU unused 7P SOU connector
(unused in uprights).

^To Robert's point, I started thinking about that possibility this morning. Something like this
would take VGA output to RGBS:

https://www.ebay.com/i/172443808131?chn=ps

From this board (or similar), the nintendo inverter would have to work in reverse, taking
uninverted video and inverting it. Not sure if the nintendo inverter board can do that, possibly
someone with more logic level savvy can chime in.

On a separate note, it would also be good to qualify whether the nintendo inverter board can
simultaneously output pass-through and de-inverted video and/or any side effects of sourcing
parallel signals from the nintendo board. I can say that, on my JAMMA direct feed, the
monitor dims slightly when I've got the NTSC-to-RGB pulling a parallel signal for direct feed
capture. It's not a major side effect, but still opens the door on the potential that something
similar or more noticeable could happen with the nintendo inverter board.

There is also speculation on the parallel DK Forum thread, that at least one of the videos was
indeed direct fed to a PC. One of the videos has a thin white line border around it, which is
Exhibit A - 000385
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 385/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

indicative of PC capture software. In that case, the (let's assume it was arcade) gameplay
would've been captured to a PC, then played back to a VCR for recording. This scenario
doesn't really support MAME play, if you think it through, but could support the lack of the
"signature" transitional frames that we are looking for to determine that it is or is not arcade
gameplay. Composite capture to PC (unknown framerate, loss), playback and record to VCR
(loss), and then what we are actually looking at was again recorded by some external method
(camera) and uploaded to youtube (more loss). Just saying if that is truly what the setup is, the
total loss of granularity and detail could equate to a very poor video image/quality that looks
similar to the best of MAME quality/images. This, of course, contradicts what the "people
who were there" are stating was the direct feed setup, tho.

Again, just voicing some impartial analysis based on all the evidence we have in front of us. :)

02-13-2018, 08:16 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Because he didn't use direct capture. He used MAME. You are looking for something that
isn't there.

If there is footage from Robert during the suspect PCB swap, there's no harm in noting for the
record that the direct feed set up attested to by Robert is not visible anywhere. He just fires up
the game and Billy dives in with his world record attempt - no cables or VCR visible, no last
check to make sure the direct feed set up is working and recording before Billy dives in. It's
just credit up and go. Imagine if everyone tried to perform direct feed experiments to see if
we end up with MAME transitions to validate something where an arcade direct feed set up
wasn't used in the first place.

And for the record, it's the only time in Robert's three videos that we get a clear, unobstructed
view of the arcade game screen playing DK Junior - but not after Billy nabs the world record.
No parallel footage of the DK run start up is captured by Robert.

02-13-2018, 08:28 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Correct. I was implying looking any further than what Jace had already stated they have done
would result in the same result. I'm all for looking once at something, but if it isn't there after
Exhibit A - 000386
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 386/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

a thorough look the first time, it's not there. Obviously this doesn't apply to many scenarios,
but this one is pretty obvious to see. A bunch of wires that aren't normally there being there. It
would be hard to miss a set up that required as much.

02-13-2018, 08:48 AM
Jace Hall
2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

There is also speculation on the parallel DK Forum thread, that at least one of the videos was
indeed direct fed to a PC. One of the videos has a thin white line border around it, which is
indicative of PC capture software. In that case, the (let's assume it was arcade) gameplay
would've been captured to a PC, then played back to a VCR for recording. This scenario
doesn't really support MAME play, if you think it through, but could support the lack of the
"signature" transitional frames that we are looking for to determine that it is or is not arcade
gameplay. Composite capture to PC (unknown framerate, loss), playback and record to VCR
(loss), and then what we are actually looking at was again recorded by some external method
(camera) and uploaded to youtube (more loss). Just saying if that is truly what the setup is, the
total loss of granularity and detail could equate to a very poor video image/quality that looks
similar to the best of MAME quality/images. This, of course, contradicts what the "people
who were there" are stating was the direct feed setup, tho.

Again, just voicing some impartial analysis based on all the evidence we have in front of us. :)

Yes. We have been considering the possibility of a PC capture-to VHS recording, which could
easily miss signature transitional frames if not done correctly.

However, we are having difficulty supporting that premise due to the fact that all our original
arcade testing so far has shown that the arcade rasterization NEVER outputs the Donkey
Kong character to the screen without simultaneously rasterizing the Oil Barrel in the bottom
left corner.

That always happens within one frame.

Example:

Attachment 50214

In the alleged Billy Mitchell performance recordings, we find instances of a rasterization

separation between the two objects.

Example (not DK character is not present but Oil Barrel is):

Attachment 50215

Under no circumstance have we been able to achieve this yet with the Original Arcade
hardware. We are finding this rasterization scenario to be impossible to be produced from the
machine, which then makes it impossible for any recording device to record.

We HAVE been able to reproduce this rasterization separation with various versions of
MAME and other EMU types.

Exhibit A - 000387
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 387/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If you can confirm or invalidate our findings on this issue with your original hardware set up
and provide that information to the dispute thread it would be helpful in our overall evaluation
of this assertion.

02-13-2018, 09:14 AM
Snowflake

well, there's a 6 hour warning to people friends with Josh Houslander on facebook that he'll
be interviewing billy tonight. Considering no update here, and only a 6 hour warning, i'm
assuming billy doesnt want much of a crowd. Wants to be able to claim he's putting himself
out there while informing as few as possible and avoiding questions that come from a larger
audience. Link here
https://www.facebook.com/josh.housla...eply&ref=notif

It should be noted this is Josh's own project, neither settle it on the screen, twin galaxies, or
any members of settle it on the screen should be blamed for the trainwreck that is to follow

02-13-2018, 10:02 AM
maximumsteve
From Joel West..

Joel asked me to post this regarding the situation. While I personally do not agree or in
concert with Joel on many matters that have nothing to do with this dispute, I feel there are
some points addressed in this message and questions that have yet to be answered that
everyone should take a look at.... Thank you...

Billy Mitchell Dispute: Common Sense

It is important to look at two areas of salient points from Robert Childs’ Video
Analysis:
Relating to using a RGB to NTSC Converter to a camera:
1. The visual Billy saw on his monitor was the same as Steve Wiebe saw on his
monitor.
2. Billy could not see the feed going to the saved tape while playing.
3. Billy had no advantage by using a video converter.
4. The only advantage to using a video converter was to the camera owner. A
camera could not be knocked over standing on a tripod behind the player.
Relating to the legal and common-sense aspects:
1. Looking like MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches “cheating”.
2. The accusation of using MAME doesn’t make sense. It would be too much work.
* The risk would not present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.
* Any player who could get 1 Million nearly 8 years ago on MAME would be able to
probably get more on arcade than a mere 1,062,800 points. This is speculative but a
highly possible speculation.
* If Billy was so well versed on MAME, when arcade scores became beyond his
current reach, why did he not “retire from arcades” and go onto mastering “another
platform”? Cheaters love attention … that is WHY they cheat. No one was close to
1M in MAME at that time. Why did he not do this? Fear of discovery? No. If he had
put a computer inside an arcade cabinet, he would be brazen enough to switch
platforms … because he craved the attention. Cheating is like an addiction … once
you “get away with it’ the next time is easy, and oft times bigger. Billy has submitted
nothing since 2010.
* If I remember correctly, MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that
time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.
Exhibit A - 000388
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 388/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

3. Even IF …
* the prescribed method of verification at that time was put aside (which would be
“changing the rules after the acceptance of proof”), changing the standard of proof
after acceptance is an unfair standard.
Even IF …
* multiple eyewitness testimony is discounted (which it should not be) … when a
dispute is involved and the tape is missing from TG “archives”, as it is in this case,
when representatives present of TG at that time are not consulted or even “trusted”
to comment their remembrance … then other standards that HAVE been used in the
past (eye witness testimony, etc.) MUST be used.
This situation is NOT to certify a NEW record/score, but to confirm an OLD,
ALREADY EXISTING score. Therefore, TG would NOT be violating their current
standard of accepting video only to verify a record because this is NOT a new record.
The goal is to establish the validity of THIS record/score, already once certified by
older standards.
Using the standards of the past when current standards cannot be met, mainly
because TG cannot find the tape in their “archives”, that is NOT the fault of the
player.
4. Even If ...
TG would dismiss the effort to find the video footage that was in their possession
WHICH IS TG’s RESPONSIBILITY to produce since they initially certified the record
… if they dismiss THIS record because they can’t “find the tape” then how many
THOUSANDS of OTHER records/scores MUST they AUTOMATICALLY dismiss
upon any challenge?. That act alone could start an avalanche of revenge seekers
seeking to remove whatever they can because the rules “allow it”.
HIRE MORE STAFF, cut into the profits, the floodgates are about to open!
* TG has a responsibility to honor tapes that were once in their custody, regardless of
ownership changes, especially if they cannot “find” a tape that was in their charge to
protect. Once in their “archives”, whether they deny this duty, real or implied, it is their
legal fiduciary duty.
SIMPLY PUT: NO SCORES involving once submitted tapes should ever be removed
should TG not be able to put their hands on the tape they once certified as a
legitimate score. Once they have it, it’s their responsibility. NO EXCEPTIONS. This is
an ALL or NONE precedent.
If TG allows “challenges” without reasonable proof, they essentially are allowing
accusations of innuendo and/or suspicion. That is NOT what the Dispute System
should become … a grudge system to punish those whom one is jealous of and does
not like.
I propose discussions to change this system. While one may agree or disagree with
the Todd Rogers decision, the challenge issued to his situation involved a standing
world record. Billy Mitchell’s score was no longer even in the Top 10. This leads to
strong belief that this served no purpose other than to harm Billy and TG allowed it.
I propose that TG ONLY allows challenges:
1. On standing World Records
2. Require reasonable proof, not speculation, suspicion, or innuendo.
3. Examine the motives of the one submitting the challenge … search social media for
harassment, threats, or promises of “getting even”. This is preliminary work that TG
should do to prevent the misuse of the Dispute System, a “due diligence” to prevent
“frivolous” challenges and to PROTECT ITS MEMBERS.
Example: one World Record that was thought “a fake” was the former (now #2) world
record on Q-Bert. George Leutz struggled mightily but overcame that score after 84
hours and 48 of play. Even tho EVERYONE thought the previous record was fake.
Billy found out about this challenge as when most people did who do not frequent the
forums by a TG Facebook post on Friday, February 2, 2018. Billy isn’t on Facebook,
Exhibit A - 000389
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 389/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

so someone had to alert him about it via email.

As it stands now TG does not notify the owner of the disputed record. It is up to the
challenger to “prove his case”, and then the record is removed. It would seem that
TG should have the interest of both the challenger and the challenged member at
heart. Now, if a member is not on the TG forums and/or Facebook … they essentially
could have their record removed without knowing about the challenge or having a
chance to defend themselves before removal.
How FAIR is that?
The challenge of Billy Mitchell’s old DK world record, not currently even in the Top 10
is a prime candidate of jealousy and vindictiveness. Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but
there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the
persona, fame and attention. Current Top DK scorers will NEVER achieve the fame
the Pioneer did, no matter how high they score. TG should take challenge disputes
rooted in emotion and personal attack into account and not allow them.
I propose these ideas as the basis for an improvement in the Dispute System. We all
know how things will work out if Billy is proven guilty. How will Billy recover from the
personal attacks, the embarrassment, the loss of respect, the loss of business and
the toll on him and his family when he is proven innocent? Will TG or the froth-filled
forum members even apologize? If they did, what would it be worth? Remember,
video games are supposed to be fun, not blood sport that harms your personal life..

02-13-2018, 10:17 AM
xelnia

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

https://i.imgur.com/i8jclaK.jpg

Not every DK has this inverter board. But since the original owner of the 1.062M machine
claims to still have it, maybe @maximumsteve can ask him to post some photos.

However, I'm not sure what good any of that will do. There's seems to be some confusion on
what "looks like MAME" really means. The issue is not about fuzzy edges, different colors,
screen burn-in (lol), or anything remotely similar to image QUALITY. The problem is the
sequence in which the image is generated...the way the image is built in VRAM and then
displayed on the monitor (PC or arcade). Nothing presented in defense of Billy's direct feed
set-up, including Childs' post, would affect the order that we see the image generated.

And let's not forget that Billy himself already admitted that the tapes presented show MAME
play, and that he himself presented some of those tapes at the IVGHOF announcement.

02-13-2018, 10:19 AM
Exhibit A - 000390
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 390/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

YesAffinity

Sanyo 20 EZ DK Arcade 60fps recording w/ Samsung S8 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=4UTw8IldRP4&t=1675s

MAME CRT DK 60fps recording w/ Samsung S8 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=KhmUQITqJmQ&t=418s

It turns out, the only external recording device (phone or phone camera) that I have that can
do 60fps is my Samsung S8. I believe the shutter issues or other concerns of my previous
uploads are cleared up in the MAME recording. I think it is still present in the arcade
recording. Please confirm. If so, I blame it on lighting, and the best I can do is re-record the
Sanyo 20EZ this weekend, during daylight.
@Jace Hall I will get some direct feed gameplay at 60fps tonight, minimizing the “touch
points” of the video capture as much as possible. If we can see at 60fps direct feed that the
barrel never generates before Kong, well that’s pretty conclusive.

More to come tonight.

02-13-2018, 10:21 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Billy Mitchell Dispute: Common Sense

It is important to look at two areas of salient points from Robert Childs’ Video
Analysis:
Relating to using a RGB to NTSC Converter to a camera:
1. The visual Billy saw on his monitor was the same as Steve Wiebe saw on his
monitor.
2. Billy could not see the feed going to the saved tape while playing.
3. Billy had no advantage by using a video converter.
4. The only advantage to using a video converter was to the camera owner. A
camera could not be knocked over standing on a tripod behind the player.
Relating to the legal and common-sense aspects:
1. Looking like MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches “cheating”.
2. The accusation of using MAME doesn’t make sense. It would be too much work.
* The risk would not present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.
* Any player who could get 1 Million nearly 8 years ago on MAME would be able to
probably get more on arcade than a mere 1,062,800 points. This is speculative but a
highly possible speculation.
* If Billy was so well versed on MAME, when arcade scores became beyond his
current reach, why did he not “retire from arcades” and go onto mastering “another
platform”? Cheaters love attention … that is WHY they cheat. No one was close to
1M in MAME at that time. Why did he not do this? Fear of discovery? No. If he had
put a computer inside an arcade cabinet, he would be brazen enough to switch
platforms … because he craved the attention. Cheating is like an addiction … once
Exhibit A - 000391
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 391/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

you “get away with it’ the next time is easy, and oft times bigger. Billy has submitted
nothing since 2010.
* If I remember correctly, MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that
time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.
3. Even IF …
* the prescribed method of verification at that time was put aside (which would be
“changing the rules after the acceptance of proof”), changing the standard of proof
after acceptance is an unfair standard.
Even IF …
* multiple eyewitness testimony is discounted (which it should not be) … when a
dispute is involved and the tape is missing from TG “archives”, as it is in this case,
when representatives present of TG at that time are not consulted or even “trusted”
to comment their remembrance … then other standards that HAVE been used in the
past (eye witness testimony, etc.) MUST be used.
This situation is NOT to certify a NEW record/score, but to confirm an OLD,
ALREADY EXISTING score. Therefore, TG would NOT be violating their current
standard of accepting video only to verify a record because this is NOT a new record.
The goal is to establish the validity of THIS record/score, already once certified by
older standards.
Using the standards of the past when current standards cannot be met, mainly
because TG cannot find the tape in their “archives”, that is NOT the fault of the
player.
4. Even If ...
TG would dismiss the effort to find the video footage that was in their possession
WHICH IS TG’s RESPONSIBILITY to produce since they initially certified the record
… if they dismiss THIS record because they can’t “find the tape” then how many
THOUSANDS of OTHER records/scores MUST they AUTOMATICALLY dismiss
upon any challenge?. That act alone could start an avalanche of revenge seekers
seeking to remove whatever they can because the rules “allow it”.
HIRE MORE STAFF, cut into the profits, the floodgates are about to open!
* TG has a responsibility to honor tapes that were once in their custody, regardless of
ownership changes, especially if they cannot “find” a tape that was in their charge to
protect. Once in their “archives”, whether they deny this duty, real or implied, it is their
legal fiduciary duty.
SIMPLY PUT: NO SCORES involving once submitted tapes should ever be removed
should TG not be able to put their hands on the tape they once certified as a
legitimate score. Once they have it, it’s their responsibility. NO EXCEPTIONS. This is
an ALL or NONE precedent.
If TG allows “challenges” without reasonable proof, they essentially are allowing
accusations of innuendo and/or suspicion. That is NOT what the Dispute System
should become … a grudge system to punish those whom one is jealous of and does
not like.
I propose discussions to change this system. While one may agree or disagree with
the Todd Rogers decision, the challenge issued to his situation involved a standing
world record. Billy Mitchell’s score was no longer even in the Top 10. This leads to
strong belief that this served no purpose other than to harm Billy and TG allowed it.
I propose that TG ONLY allows challenges:
1. On standing World Records
2. Require reasonable proof, not speculation, suspicion, or innuendo.
3. Examine the motives of the one submitting the challenge … search social media for
harassment, threats, or promises of “getting even”. This is preliminary work that TG
should do to prevent the misuse of the Dispute System, a “due diligence” to prevent
“frivolous” challenges and to PROTECT ITS MEMBERS.
Example: one World Record that was thought “a fake” was the former (now #2) world
Exhibit A - 000392
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 392/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

record on Q-Bert. George Leutz struggled mightily but overcame that score after 84
hours and 48 of play. Even tho EVERYONE thought the previous record was fake.
Billy found out about this challenge as when most people did who do not frequent the
forums by a TG Facebook post on Friday, February 2, 2018. Billy isn’t on Facebook,
so someone had to alert him about it via email.
As it stands now TG does not notify the owner of the disputed record. It is up to the
challenger to “prove his case”, and then the record is removed. It would seem that
TG should have the interest of both the challenger and the challenged member at
heart. Now, if a member is not on the TG forums and/or Facebook … they essentially
could have their record removed without knowing about the challenge or having a
chance to defend themselves before removal.
How FAIR is that?
The challenge of Billy Mitchell’s old DK world record, not currently even in the Top 10
is a prime candidate of jealousy and vindictiveness. Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but
there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the
persona, fame and attention. Current Top DK scorers will NEVER achieve the fame
the Pioneer did, no matter how high they score. TG should take challenge disputes
rooted in emotion and personal attack into account and not allow them.
I propose these ideas as the basis for an improvement in the Dispute System. We all
know how things will work out if Billy is proven guilty. How will Billy recover from the
personal attacks, the embarrassment, the loss of respect, the loss of business and
the toll on him and his family when he is proven innocent? Will TG or the froth-filled
forum members even apologize? If they did, what would it be worth? Remember,
video games are supposed to be fun, not blood sport that harms your personal life..

i appreciate the numbering scheme, makes it easier to debunk piece by piece

as for the "common sense' numbering which would more appropriately titled "nonsense"
1. i dont see the relevance. yeah steve saw the playback but you have to really slow things
down to see the mame
2. true, so what. billy doesnt have to see the feed to cheat. in fact, billy didnt see the direct
feed because there was no feed to see, it was mame.
3. correct, a video convert gave no advantage, no one is claming it does. what your point?
4. gotchya, its really hard to prevent people from knocking over a camera. direct feed was
needed. yet somehow lots of other people figured out how to use a camera.

for the "legal and common-sense" section

1. correct. looing like mame isnt mame, agreed. so what

2. agreed, using mame to just play straight up makes no sense, its too much effort for too
little reward. See lets think this through shall we. If using MAME in a fair sense makes
zero sense according to your own words, yet mame was used, whats the obvious
conclusion
3. this is actually more than one point made being listed as point three but here goes. this is
flawed for many reasons. the stuff you say to put aside didnt happen. billy did not follow the
verification method of the time, therefore we are not putting it aisde. No standards of proof
are bieng changed as billy didnt follow the standards at the time but hey he's billy mithcel he
could get his way without following the rules. Billy only claims to have eyewitness testimony,
yet there has been no such testimony so we also putting that asdie. (strange by the way that
with all those in attendance none have come forward to vouch for billy). TG losing the tapes
is not the players fault -- totally agreed. but did TG lose the tapes? or did hte player never
send them in the first place? That remains to be determined.
4. repeating earlier point that TG had the originals depsite the fact that is very much in
questin. also all other points based on this act as if the only reason for the challenge is that the
Exhibit A - 000393
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 393/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

original is missing when in reality that is not the reason for the challenge. there is no fear of
other records being challenged simply because the original was missing, that's simply fear
mongering on Joel West's part.

i dont feel like rebutting joel's suggesting change's to the dispute system, he can take that up
with jace directly.

a bunch of accusations are then laid at the challenger and those believing the challenging as
well as whining how unfair it is. since fair is an opnion, i will respect joel's right to feel bad
for himself.

one point of sympathy i will adress though. "how will billy recover from the personal attacks,
the embarassment, the loss of respoect, the loss of business and toll on him and his family",
well i would say billy should've thought about that before cheating and then provoking
everyone involved further with his insults as well as hiding behind his friends using them to
deal with this for him. Its my opinion his business will do just fine, hot sauce dooesnt have
much to do with games, and even as far as appearances go, he's still a very famous cheater
and was in a movie so i'm sure people will love to see that. the embarassment and loss of
respect though, thats all on him. as for personall attacks, some one who goes around calling
others "the lonely losers club" isnt in much of a place to whine about personal attacks.

02-13-2018, 11:35 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Billy Mitchell Dispute: Common Sense

It is important to look at two areas of salient points from Robert Childs’ Video
Analysis:
Relating to using a RGB to NTSC Converter to a camera:
1. The visual Billy saw on his monitor was the same as Steve Wiebe saw on his
monitor.
2. Billy could not see the feed going to the saved tape while playing.
3. Billy had no advantage by using a video converter.
4. The only advantage to using a video converter was to the camera owner. A
camera could not be knocked over standing on a tripod behind the player.
Relating to the legal and common-sense aspects:
1. Looking like MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches “cheating”.
2. The accusation of using MAME doesn’t make sense. It would be too much work.
* The risk would not present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.
* Any player who could get 1 Million nearly 8 years ago on MAME would be able to
probably get more on arcade than a mere 1,062,800 points. This is speculative but a
highly possible speculation.
* If Billy was so well versed on MAME, when arcade scores became beyond his
current reach, why did he not “retire from arcades” and go onto mastering “another
platform”? Cheaters love attention … that is WHY they cheat. No one was close to
1M in MAME at that time. Why did he not do this? Fear of discovery? No. If he had
Exhibit A - 000394
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 394/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

put a computer inside an arcade cabinet, he would be brazen enough to switch

platforms … because he craved the attention. Cheating is like an addiction … once
you “get away with it’ the next time is easy, and oft times bigger. Billy has submitted
nothing since 2010.
* If I remember correctly, MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that
time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.
3. Even IF …
* the prescribed method of verification at that time was put aside (which would be
“changing the rules after the acceptance of proof”), changing the standard of proof
after acceptance is an unfair standard.
Even IF …
* multiple eyewitness testimony is discounted (which it should not be) … when a
dispute is involved and the tape is missing from TG “archives”, as it is in this case,
when representatives present of TG at that time are not consulted or even “trusted”
to comment their remembrance … then other standards that HAVE been used in the
past (eye witness testimony, etc.) MUST be used.
This situation is NOT to certify a NEW record/score, but to confirm an OLD,
ALREADY EXISTING score. Therefore, TG would NOT be violating their current
standard of accepting video only to verify a record because this is NOT a new record.
The goal is to establish the validity of THIS record/score, already once certified by
older standards.
Using the standards of the past when current standards cannot be met, mainly
because TG cannot find the tape in their “archives”, that is NOT the fault of the
player.
4. Even If ...
TG would dismiss the effort to find the video footage that was in their possession
WHICH IS TG’s RESPONSIBILITY to produce since they initially certified the record
… if they dismiss THIS record because they can’t “find the tape” then how many
THOUSANDS of OTHER records/scores MUST they AUTOMATICALLY dismiss
upon any challenge?. That act alone could start an avalanche of revenge seekers
seeking to remove whatever they can because the rules “allow it”.
HIRE MORE STAFF, cut into the profits, the floodgates are about to open!
* TG has a responsibility to honor tapes that were once in their custody, regardless of
ownership changes, especially if they cannot “find” a tape that was in their charge to
protect. Once in their “archives”, whether they deny this duty, real or implied, it is their
legal fiduciary duty.
SIMPLY PUT: NO SCORES involving once submitted tapes should ever be removed
should TG not be able to put their hands on the tape they once certified as a
legitimate score. Once they have it, it’s their responsibility. NO EXCEPTIONS. This is
an ALL or NONE precedent.
If TG allows “challenges” without reasonable proof, they essentially are allowing
accusations of innuendo and/or suspicion. That is NOT what the Dispute System
should become … a grudge system to punish those whom one is jealous of and does
not like.
I propose discussions to change this system. While one may agree or disagree with
the Todd Rogers decision, the challenge issued to his situation involved a standing
world record. Billy Mitchell’s score was no longer even in the Top 10. This leads to
strong belief that this served no purpose other than to harm Billy and TG allowed it.
I propose that TG ONLY allows challenges:
1. On standing World Records
2. Require reasonable proof, not speculation, suspicion, or innuendo.
3. Examine the motives of the one submitting the challenge … search social media for
harassment, threats, or promises of “getting even”. This is preliminary work that TG
should do to prevent the misuse of the Dispute System, a “due diligence” to prevent
Exhibit A - 000395
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 395/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

“frivolous” challenges and to PROTECT ITS MEMBERS.

Example: one World Record that was thought “a fake” was the former (now #2) world
record on Q-Bert. George Leutz struggled mightily but overcame that score after 84
hours and 48 of play. Even tho EVERYONE thought the previous record was fake.
Billy found out about this challenge as when most people did who do not frequent the
forums by a TG Facebook post on Friday, February 2, 2018. Billy isn’t on Facebook,
so someone had to alert him about it via email.
As it stands now TG does not notify the owner of the disputed record. It is up to the
challenger to “prove his case”, and then the record is removed. It would seem that
TG should have the interest of both the challenger and the challenged member at
heart. Now, if a member is not on the TG forums and/or Facebook … they essentially
could have their record removed without knowing about the challenge or having a
chance to defend themselves before removal.
How FAIR is that?
The challenge of Billy Mitchell’s old DK world record, not currently even in the Top 10
is a prime candidate of jealousy and vindictiveness. Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but
there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the
persona, fame and attention. Current Top DK scorers will NEVER achieve the fame
the Pioneer did, no matter how high they score. TG should take challenge disputes
rooted in emotion and personal attack into account and not allow them.
I propose these ideas as the basis for an improvement in the Dispute System. We all
know how things will work out if Billy is proven guilty. How will Billy recover from the
personal attacks, the embarrassment, the loss of respect, the loss of business and
the toll on him and his family when he is proven innocent? Will TG or the froth-filled
forum members even apologize? If they did, what would it be worth? Remember,
video games are supposed to be fun, not blood sport that harms your personal life..

Wow there are a lot of messengers in Billy's corner. Is he running a mob? Billy is the
godfather, he has a few head honchos running his businesses, and then the messengers do the
talking for them because they can't seem to do it. Pretty much everything Joel just said is
adding to the speculation with zero facts behind them. It's all a bunch of theories. Snowflake
already answered this pretty well. It's pretty obvious the people on Billy's side have been
away from TG a long time as well. They must have missed the part where if a score is in the
database it stays. Period. The dispute system doesn't just remove scores because it's a dispute
system. Has Joel West even looked at the evidence? No one is saying he Billy could have
used MAME, it's being said. The evidence backs it up. TG's own investigation has proved it.
They are asking for anyone to confirm or deny what they are finding. No one has done that
yet.

Now for the personal attacks. Wow, it's incredible how many people in Billy's corner are
overlooking the possible cheating/deceptive factor and then turning around and attacking the
TG/DKF community. I'll focus on the last few paragraphs.

OK, so you tell me what difference it makes where a score stands in the best of all
time list and where its OK to ignore cheating/deception? I'm just curious where that
line is. As for the jealousy and vindictiveness. Wow, it's amazing how you know
everything about everyone that you can make that statement. I don't know Billy,
never heard of him until 2 years ago, and I could care less now about his "fame". I'm
pretty happy with my life thank you very much. I may not have 4 kids if I went the
Exhibit A - 000396
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 396/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

route of Billy. So, I'll stoop to the name calling level and say that was a statement a
complete dumb**** would make....and ignorant as well. I'm actually more angry than
anything. Who did he rob of having all of those celebrity things because he's possibly
a fraud. Why would care, he's your buddy and your living in his wake.
Current Top DK scorers will NEVER achieve the fame the Pioneer did, no matter how
high they score. TG should take challenge disputes rooted in emotion and personal
attack into account and not allow them.

Again, only Billy's corner is saying that's what they want. Any one else starting to see
a pattern of this behavior. Just curious since again this is a dumb**** statement, what
dispute are you referring too. This isn't the O.J. case here where emotions were
heavily driving it. The evidence presented was literally hardware facts that has yet to
be found incorrect. There have been a **** load of theories that have been wrong or
not tested by Billy's corner, but as for the emotion part, I'm not seeing it. By the way,
the only emotion I'm having is towards you internet tough guys calling people like
myself and others all these things when we are in fact unbiased towards the
outcome. You can quote me about 30 times now saying that. You can also quote me
saying, "Call me what you want, back up your words with evidence." Also, I've never
attacked Billy personally....so I guess your wrong again there as well. But hey, we
HAVE TO allow testimonies according to you. Yeah, none of those are emotionally
driven what so ever. I'll tell you all to go read the quoted post above and tell me if that
has no emotion in it.

I'll stop for now, but this **** is getting so deep even Billy himself has got to be
smelling it.

P.S. Can you ****ing cowards actually speak for yourselves? ****, that would break
the chain of command.

02-13-2018, 11:38 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

^To Robert's point, I started thinking about that possibility this morning. Something like this
would take VGA output to RGBS:

https://www.ebay.com/i/172443808131?chn=ps

Yes, it can do that, and that wouldn't be working in reverse, but rather, that would be exactly
what it was designed to do. It is designed to allow you to connect a non-Nintendo boardset
(normal/uninverted video) to the monitor. When used with a Nintendo boardset (inverted
video), you use the pass-through connection, which means it is doing absolutely nothing. You
can also bypass it completely like I do, and plug the RGB wire bundle directly into the RGB
input header on the monitor chassis. It isn't used with a Nintendo boardset because the
monitor chassis itself inverts colors by default. If you did use it with a Nintendo boardset,
you'd be starting with inverted colors, the inverter board would invert them back to normal
colors, and then the monitor chassis would invert them again and you'd see inverted colors on
the screen.
Exhibit A - 000397
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 397/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The inverter board doesn't "know" or "care" whether the video you have input is normal or
inverted; it just inverts whatever it gets. When using the "invert out" header, if you input
inverted video you get normal video out; if you input normal video you get inverted video
out. And of course, the "non invert out" header is just a pass-through, i.e., a dead short
between each of the corresponding pins on the input header and the "non invert out" header.

Quote:

That's inevitable when you split a signal in general; it has nothing to do with the device you're
using. If it didn't happen then it would be a case of free energy, which would violate the laws
of the universe. You can get away with splitting the signal once to go to two devices without
much of an issue, but suppose you tried to split one video signal out to ten devices, or a
hundred, or a million. Obviously the individual split signals would be so weak that it wouldn't
even work, so it would have to be boosted for such extreme cases of splitting.

02-13-2018, 11:41 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

The challenge of Billy Mitchell’s old DK world record, not currently even in the Top 10
is a prime candidate of jealousy and vindictiveness. Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but
there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the
persona, fame and attention. Current Top DK scorers will NEVER achieve the fame
the Pioneer did, no matter how high they score. TG should take challenge disputes
rooted in emotion and personal attack into account and not allow them.

I'm not a DK player or a part of the DK Forums community, but this characterization is
pure trash. No wonder Joel didn't publish it here directly himself.

This goes without saying, but there is and continues to be prestige attached to
holding a former world record on Donkey Kong; this forms part of the historical record,
and part of the historical memory of the DK community and for anyone interesting in
game culture. For that measure alone, false scores should be removed in order to
clarify the sequence of past achievements. But equally important, surely one of the
disincentives for cheating is the fear of being caught, regardless of whether a world
record has been superseded or not.

We all know how things will work out if Billy is proven guilty. How will Billy recover
from the personal attacks, the embarrassment, the loss of respect, the loss of
business and the toll on him and his family when he is proven innocent? Will TG or
Exhibit A - 000398
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 398/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the froth-filled forum members even apologize? If they did, what would it be worth?
Remember, video games are supposed to be fun, not blood sport that harms your
personal life..[/QUOTE]

02-13-2018, 11:47 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

* The risk would not present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.

Well aint that a peach? I believe these sentences contradict themselves. The risk would not
present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered...yet here we are disputing this
score because of our wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the
persona, fame and attention. I'm going to pull a Billy's corner move and speculate that that
seems like plenty worth the risk doesn't it? Yeah, Billy has never made a dollar appearing at
any of these events. Noooo, that's not worth the risk.

Thanks for helping out us "jealous Billy haters" prove our point for us....except that there is
actual hard evidence from the Billy's haters and only words from Billy supporters. This is all
so confusing, it's hard to keep track of so many contradictory stories from Billy's side. Guess
the haters just have our story more lock tight than you guys. You need to have more meetings
and get these things figured out. Emotions can do that though, make a bunch of people start
mixing up event and stories. Again, I'm just speculating. None of this means anything.

Oh yeah, plus the hard evidence. Lets not forget about the hard evidence that has yet to be
counter or found inaccurate. Funny thing is, Joel West won't even be able to respond to this
because he needs someone to convey the message to him. Again, it's like elementary school
when someone likes someone and they go through the friends to get ask each other out.

02-13-2018, 11:56 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Steve,

please ask Joel to come and post on his own behalf. He has an account here and was engaged
in a discussion about the use of JROK about a month ago. It's clear from his post he has some
misunderstandings about the entire dispute. Much like Robert, he spent most of his time
responding to arguments that literally no one here is making (no one has ever said Billy was
Exhibit A - 000399
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 399/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

playing on a MAME system in a cabinet, and the fact that both of these guys think that it what
is being said shows they are unclear of the issue at hand).

02-13-2018, 12:05 PM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

*snip* when he is proven innocent? Will TG or the froth-filled forum members even
apologize? If they did, what would it be worth?

I don't know sometimes apologies can be worth quite a bit. For an example: if someone were
perhaps a good person, with a loving family, maybe even an owner of businesses, a pillar of
the community. Someone well liked, well known, friendly to the vast majority they run in to.
Someone that has proven themselves time and again, for decades. If someone like that were to
apologize, say: I'm sorry, I messed up, I believed others were cheating and I did the same. It
all inadvertently blew up way out of control thanks to the movie and I just lost it for a bit.

They could perhaps go on and apologize to their family, friends, supporters, all of those they
let down over the years. Something like that could go a long way.

02-13-2018, 12:16 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Yeah, you're right. Had my wires crossed there for a second (no pun intended).

02-13-2018, 12:19 PM
YesAffinity

^And this is an extremely valuable point! How exactly was an inverter board, which either
passes through inverted video or inverts non-inverted video...in either case, what is spit out of
the other end is INVERTED VIDEO...how was that device used in a chain of only that device
and a RGB-to-NTSC encoder, used to produce and capture video that is NOT inverted?!?!

02-13-2018, 12:38 PM
DadsGlasses

I don’t think Joel West understands the evidence against Billy.

Exhibit A - 000400
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 400/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I dont think Joel West understands the current Dispute System that Twin Galaxies has in
place.

02-13-2018, 12:45 PM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

I don’t think Joel West understands the evidence against Billy.

I dont think Joel West understands the current Dispute System that Twin Galaxies has in
place.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I know these things...

02-13-2018, 12:46 PM
Blackflag82

ie. I know Joel West doesn't understand the dispute

02-13-2018, 12:51 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

ie. I know Joel West doesn't understand the dispute

Speculation. Otherwise why Joel say the things he has said? I jest, of course.

02-13-2018, 12:56 PM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Speculation. Otherwise why Joel say the things he has said? I jest, of course.

If I'm wrong, I'll offer a heart felt apology which won't be worth very much for some reason
or another...

02-13-2018, 02:06 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Again, the inverter board doesn't know or care whether it's being fed normal or inverted
video; it will invert anything you feed it. If you feed it inverted video it will output normal
Exhibit A - 000401
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 401/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

video, and vice versa. In the case of a direct-feed setup from a Nintendo boardset, you would
be feeding it inverted video and it would output normal video, which is what you want for the
RGB-to-NTSC converter and the VCR.

With a Nintendo boardset, when going to the Sanyo monitor (as opposed to an RGB-to-NTSC
converter and VCR), you do not use the function of the inverter board (you use the pass-
through header or bypass the board altogether) because the monitor's chassis (i.e., the main
PCB of the monitor) also inverts the colors by default, so if you did that there would be two
instances of color inversion in the same chain, which would cancel each other out, leaving
you back where you started, i.e., you would see inverted colors on the monitor.

To summarize: the Sanyo monitor's chassis inverts whatever is coming out of the color
inverter board, but an RGB-to-NTSC converter and VCR do not invert anything.

02-13-2018, 02:39 PM
thegamer1185

I feel I need to clarify something. I was in no way calling MaximumSteve a coward in my last
few posts. I was calling those people who do not come here themselves to make those posts
the cowards, in this case Joel West. I don't think the messengers are cowards since they are
just relaying things for people. All I can say to them is please have those people do it
themselves so there can't be any misinterpretation of ones words to the other. I've stated that a
few times already. My apologies to MaximumSteve for my actions appearing as though I was
referring to him as the coward. I can't remember what page it was on but when he came over
to talk about this dispute instead of on facebook I was thankful for that. Anyways, again
Steve, apologies.

02-13-2018, 02:45 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Again, the inverter board doesn't know or care whether it's being fed normal or inverted
video; it will invert anything you feed it. If you feed it inverted video it will output normal
video, and vice versa. In the case of a direct-feed setup from a Nintendo boardset, you would
be feeding it inverted video and it would output normal video, which is what you want for the
RGB-to-NTSC converter and the VCR.

To summarize: the Sanyo monitor's chassis inverts whatever is coming out of the color
inverter board, but an RGB-to-NTSC converter and VCR do not invert anything.

Okay, that makes sense, and good information!

02-13-2018, 03:20 PM
maximumsteve
Thanks for the reply...
Exhibit A - 000402
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 402/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

No worries and I appreciate you sharing that. For reference, Joel West had accidentally lost or
forgot his password on here, and is not on here as often as others, however he did inform me
that he retrieved or figured out how to do a new password, lol, so he will post on here later
tonight or tommorrow he said. I have shared my own thoughts on a earlier message on here
regarding Bill either going to the Kong Off coming up, if not before then, and do a Live play,
Live stream, recorded and attended event for a day or a weekend, and play DK and get his
score in question or better. While I understand that is not the "CRUX" of the dispute, almost
EVERY "Elite" level DK player that plays and streams regularly 1. Do not believe that Bill
has scored a million in the past, and 2. Do NOT believe he can score a million points or better
now, so Bill doing that is worth it for the "DK" community of regular players. As for the
technical aspects, etc.. I am about to post some more thoughts from Carlos Piniero, Former
SEGA Gameboard technician, who in his case, I don't think has an account or login to TG,
but wanted me to share his thoughts, and they are as follows...... Signal conversion have
been around for a very long while. When old home video game systems had analog
conversion boxes that would allow the combined (audio / video) signal to run on your
TV's 300omh antenna input, and some even had an additional converter that would
turn your 2 wire 300omh antenna output to a 75omh coaxial male head. It comes
down to the signal being of the standard the TV can understand. In this case they
took a multi wire game board output into a converter board that combined and
outputted a standard video composite NTSC (29.97fps) output. This output is
compatible with VCR, capture boards and even modern TV's today. The yellow RCA
cable. They are not a 100% perfect but the worse it will do is be a a little wavy, flicker
or the scrolling image with trouble locking.
But what it will NOT do is change that order things are drawn on the screen from the
original output. And that seems to be the biggest argument circulating online right
now that I have found.

02-13-2018, 03:47 PM
BenMullen

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

I propose that TG ONLY allows challenges:

1. On standing World Records
2. Require reasonable proof, not speculation, suspicion, or innuendo.
3. Examine the motives of the one submitting the challenge …

I would wish to respond to 4 of the later points made (The 4th is that TG must notify people
of score disputes)
Exhibit A - 000403
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 403/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

1. NO
2. Agreed
3. NO
4. NO. In an ideal world, yes. but it could be impossible or otherwise prohibitively difficult. It
is not incumbent on TG to inform us of disputes. It IS incumbent on players not to cheat.

02-13-2018, 04:21 PM
maximumsteve
Broadcast right now...

https://www.facebook.com/pg/EMPIRExM...=page_internal

FB Live, you can see and hear Bill Talk with Houslander right now...

02-13-2018, 04:32 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

https://www.facebook.com/pg/EMPIRExM...=page_internal

FB Live, you can see and hear Bill Talk with Houslander right now...

He started out name dropping and bringing up pete and walter. It doesn't matter what type of
emotional plea or anything else he brings to the table. The evidence so far is against him. This
is like the murderer with tons of evidence against them saying "no, i really didn't do it, it
wasn't me on tape." Now they are attacking the dispute system itself which is also ridiculous.
This is insane. Todd Rodgers and his girlfriend are the only ones that were there the day it
happened. Billy changed his story after pete died and is now saying he was there when at the
time he is on camera saying pete couldn't make it. He said this in reference to between the
donkey kong world record and the DK jr world record. "we were waiting for pete and i
thought there was one more thing i had to do. I started a DKjr game and I think it would have
been petes first time seeing a world record. If pete was there to see the Donkey kong world
record why would it have billy thought it would be his first time watching a world record
live?

02-13-2018, 04:37 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

He started out name dropping and bringing up pete and walter. It doesn't matter what type of
emotional plea or anything else he brings to the table. The evidence so far is against him. This
is like the murderer with tons of evidence against them saying "no, i really didn't do it, it
wasn't me on tape." Now they are attacking the dispute system itself which is also ridiculous.
This is insane. Todd Rodgers and his girlfriend are the only ones that were there the day it
happened. Billy changed his story after pete died and is now saying he was there when at the
time he is on camera saying pete couldn't make it. He said this in reference to between the
donkey kong world record and the DK jr world record. "we were waiting for pete and i
thought there was one more thing i had to do. I started a DKjr game and I think it would have
been petes first time seeing a world record. If pete was there to see the Donkey kong world
Exhibit A - 000404
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 404/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

record why would it have billy thought it would be his first time watching a world record
live?

because billy Mitchel is a liar who is so use to sycophants accepting his poorly though out lies
that he never bothered to learn how to lie well. I’m glad he’s lying on tape to further establish
just what his ethics are

02-13-2018, 04:48 PM
thegamer1185

According to Billy in that interview, they have presented evidence that he did it. Several
supporters still think there isn't enough evidence to prove he played on MAME.

02-13-2018, 04:54 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

According to Billy in that interview, they have presented evidence that he did it. Several
supporters still think there isn't enough evidence to prove he played on MAME.

Wait, what evidence did they present that he did it? All I have seen are random people saying
a dead person was there who they said wasn't there at the time and a bunch of people who
trust billy saying he did it. What in the world have they presented to prove he did it?

02-13-2018, 05:10 PM
DadsGlasses

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

https://www.facebook.com/pg/EMPIRExM...=page_internal

FB Live, you can see and hear Bill Talk with Houslander right now...

One of two things is clearly happening:

1. People that support Billy haven’t read or don’t understand the evidence against him.

2. People that support Billy don’t care about the evidence and blindly support him regardless.

Not one single person has provided actual evidence of any kind that disputes @xelnia
evidence.

02-13-2018, 05:10 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Exhibit A - 000405
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 405/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I literally think 99% of Billy's backers only know one thing. Billy's score is being
disputed....they literally have no idea why. I mean, they have no idea why. At least that would
explain the lack of counter evidence. My head hurts. So far he has been interviewed twice and
none of the people doing the interview has one clue what to ask him. Hell, I'll interview Billy
Mitchell. I'll be as nice as anybody but I'll ask him questions to help him clarify his position
and also questions that are evidence based.

02-13-2018, 05:14 PM
thegamer1185

Joel West has no clue what he is talking about. At all. He said so many inaccurate about TG.
I'm not defending TG at all, but holy **** it was very clear he doesn't have a clue what the
dispute system is about, how it works, or why Billy's score is being disputed. He said it in the
interview like he did in that post MaximumSteve posted, "Why is this score even being
disputed? It's not even in the top 10." That's the mind set the dispute evidence is going up
against. Some of them think Billy's celebrity status is enough to leave it alone. It's crazy. My
god, did they all cheat? It's just craziness.

02-13-2018, 05:15 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

One of two things is clearly happening:

1. People that support Billy haven’t read or don’t understand the evidence against him.

2. People that support Billy don’t care about the evidence and blindly support him regardless.

Not one single person has provided actual evidence of any kind that disputes @xelnia
evidence.

Billy seems to think they have. Guess everybody missed it. And I mean everybody.

02-13-2018, 05:21 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

One of two things is clearly happening:

1. People that support Billy haven’t read or don’t understand the evidence against him.

2. People that support Billy don’t care about the evidence and blindly support him regardless.
Exhibit A - 000406
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 406/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Not one single person has provided actual evidence of any kind that disputes @xelnia
evidence.

The one guy who was a fan of billy who WAS posting evidence stopped when he realized
what he was posting showed Billy used MAME to create the gameplay.

02-13-2018, 05:44 PM
cavman

Didn't Hector post along the lines that he would post distractions as often as he said wait for
the next big bomb? Seems he was right about distractions, as there was no substance.

02-13-2018, 05:51 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavman

Didn't Hector post along the lines that he would post distractions as often as he said wait for
the next big bomb? Seems he was right about distractions, as there was no substance.

I don't think Hector will be posting any distractions:

https://www.facebook.com/hectortello...89146341417882

02-13-2018, 05:56 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I don't think Hector will be posting any distractions:

https://www.facebook.com/hectortello...89146341417882

Hector is a good dude, he is watching his gaming heroes fall in front of him and realizes it's
true. He isn't in denial about what happened, he is honestly upset about it and is taking a
break. I respect him for that. He is someone with a good head on their shoulders.

Being objective goes a long way and it helps you cope with the reality of life. I just wish Billy
would come out and say, hey I wanted to stay on top and i did some stupid stuff, sorry guys.

02-13-2018, 06:19 PM
cavman

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I don't think Hector will be posting any distractions:

https://www.facebook.com/hectortello...89146341417882

I wasn't saying Hector would be posting distractions, he was saying how Billy and his team
would. He seemed to realize the truth and was struggling dealing with it, good for him to be
able to realize his life is more important.
Exhibit A - 000407
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 407/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-13-2018, 06:52 PM
Mitch Mitchell
Did I hear right?

Was I the only one who heard Billy say he actually found another tape and how there was 2
feeds setup at the same time?
I really need to find a link to a nonlive version of that interview, anyone got a link so he can
be properly quoted? There was something there for sure and he hesitated and changed course.

02-13-2018, 07:01 PM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JSzpjo8Oe0

02-13-2018, 07:04 PM
Mitch Mitchell
Found it

Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1838&v=6JSzpjo8Oe0

34:38

"I actually found the original, no; we had two different um um, translators, convertors excuse
me; in order to translate the signal to a direct feed,"

Any thoughts on this phrase?

02-13-2018, 07:13 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1838&v=6JSzpjo8Oe0

34:38

"I actually found the original, no; we had two different um um, translators, convertors excuse
me; in order to translate the signal to a direct feed,"

Any thoughts on this phrase?

On the surface of what he said: the inverter board, and the RGB-to-NTSC board.

02-13-2018, 07:21 PM
thegamer1185
Exhibit A - 000408
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 408/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1838&v=6JSzpjo8Oe0

34:38

"I actually found the original, no; we had two different um um, translators, convertors excuse
me; in order to translate the signal to a direct feed,"

Any thoughts on this phrase?

Using some pretty big words for a guy who isn't much of a tech savvy guy. I know,
speculation.

02-13-2018, 07:22 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1838&v=6JSzpjo8Oe0

34:38

"I actually found the original, no; we had two different um um, translators, convertors excuse
me; in order to translate the signal to a direct feed,"

Any thoughts on this phrase?

Didn't Billy say in the last interview that TG has the original? I mean Joel was saying the
burden of proof was on TG because they had the tapes

02-13-2018, 07:24 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Didn't Billy say in the last interview that TG has the original? I mean Joel was saying the
burden of proof was on TG because they had the tapes

Yep, he sure did. I'm often wrong, but I'm really liking my odds on calling it that Billy has the
original tape.

02-13-2018, 07:26 PM
Mitch Mitchell
Might be

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

On the surface of what he said: the inverter board, and the RGB-to-NTSC board.

Exhibit A - 000409
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 409/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Goodcall man, Billy might of been saying that he found the original converter, but then said
there was 2 --as in he wasn't 100% sure it was the original and might of been the 2nd that was
found--

I found on this post Robert mentions there was 2 bought in a 3yr period, but only 1 is
accounted for.

https://www.facebook.com/robert.l.ch...OrXu_Y&fref=nf

02-13-2018, 07:27 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Yep, he sure did. I'm often wrong, but I'm really liking my odds on calling it that Billy has the
original tape.

Without audio ;)

02-13-2018, 08:34 PM
Snowflake

well, although I knew walking in I was probably wasting my time, I really wanted to be fair,
but any preconcieved ideas aside, and hear the man out. Sadly, it was a complete waste of
time. If he goes for a third interview then people can call me biased or prejudiced or unfair for
refusing to listen any further but i'm only willing to listen to filibuster for so long before I'm
done wasting my time.

Billy's now found two people who didnt interview him about the dispute so much as just gave
him a platform to brag about himself and completely ignore and valid points as well as
misrepresent the points made so as to make it easier for billy to argue with not the real dispute
but a fantasized dispute. Billy's made very clear now he's not going to be given info to TG or
even go to any respectable media outlet that offered to interview him since he doesnt want to
answer the questions. Now that its abundantly clear no more info will be coming from billy, I
think he's been giving more than a fair chance and there's no point on waiting for anything
else from his team.

Despite Billy's snipes at TG and the custodian (which i assume is a reference to jace, but with
billy, who knows), I'm sure TG is very capable of handling it. I'm now done with this dispute.
The evidece has already been proven. For the sake of thoroughnes billy has been given a
chance to respond and instead chose to squander that time. I just dont see how its worth any
more time.

i'm off to play some moon patrol, totally done with this

02-13-2018, 08:45 PM
The Evener

Main take-away:

Billy seems to be backtracking on the tapes looking like MAME?

Question posed to Billy by Adam: “I wanted to verify with you the MAME tape that was
brought up by Jeremy Young on the message boards there…you don't dispute that
Exhibit A that video,
- 000410
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 410/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

that MAME video is your video – it’s always been your claim that there’s a second tape out
that TG has or somebody has” that’s the original

Billy: "no, that’s not what I say, I don't know if it's the video or not, I'll even assume that it is,
but what I'm telling you is that it's not MAME and I don't play on MAME - not a chance,
zero"

https://youtu.be/6JSzpjo8Oe0?t=1h6m20s

Most bizarre moment:

Billy recounting how anonymous gamers were essentially briefing him in real time that Todd
Rogers got a 5.51 in Dragster, starting with Todd's home performance in March 1982; then
over the summer of 1982 Billy was told by these same anonymous gamers that "that guy who
got that impossible score" also nabbed a 5.51 at the Activision booth at the Consumer
Electronics Show in June AND at the Electronic Things show in August. Word travels fast in
the pre-Internet world.

Quick recap (it’s a bit out of sequence - what stood out to me, in no particular order):

Pete gets credit for the camera on the 9 foot tripod to record the room view of Bill's DK and
DK Jr play, Billy hopes this tape turns up

Billy sticking to his new version of the Boomer experience – still claims Pete was there to
congratulate him despite his 2010 statements confirming Pete wasn’t there for DK and DK
Junior

After clinching the DK Junior record, he ate again, and then did small outlet interviews, did
some YouTube stuff, and a few conversations in the following days with Pete, Walter, and
media.

Billy acknowledges that he played a MAME type set-up when he used the ArcadePC at a
CGE playing Steve Wiebe

Billy believes that questioning a 12th place score makes the motives of people suspect

Confusing accounting – Josh confirms that Todd held the physical video tape at the Big Bang
on Friday night, and then it was handed to Billy by David Nelson for the presentation the next
day, and from there, Billy doesn’t know what happened because “they're all over the Internet”
(-1:00:00); in reality, there isn’t any footage of the entire 1.06M game found anywhere on-
line. Seems like he’s conflating the two other score tapes with the third.

Billy doesn't know where originals are, but presumes Boomer’s “room tape” is with them.
However, in the chain of custody outlined by Billy (Todd hand them, then David had them,
and then they were given to Billy), it seems the last stop was Billy. However, presumed they
were turned over to someone at TG, and TG is responsible for being custodian

Billy Mitchell - "my job is to go up to the game, and play it"

Billy asks Josh if Pete or anyone else at the time had suspicions and wanted the scores
investigated; Josh replies no, no suspicion

Billy had Boomer DK PCB certified; later used by Wiebe at E3

Exhibit A - 000411
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 411/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy thinks Dave Nelson had to verify Billy's score

-it was entered as referee in the TG database

Billy: The recordings at Big Bang were meant for entertainment, they were meant for fun,
they weren't meant to verify a score, although eventually they will be used to "re-verify"

Some discussion that since the score was verified live, the dispute shouldn’t be possible

Billy "Here's what I hope to do in the coming days we will continue to produce more and
more stuff that will show the obvious facts that what happened”

02-13-2018, 08:57 PM
YesAffinity

Arcade captured at 480p/60: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUqE...ature=youtu.be

I watched just about every barrel board startup, and it is exactly as Jace describes - the oil can
and Kong (along with some other objects) ALWAYS appear on-screen in the same frame. All
but 2 of the barrel board startups that I watched occur in 5 frames. The (2) anomalous startups
had duplicate frames, one started in 6 frames, one started in (7) frames. L4-1 started in 7
frames. But even in those (2) anomalous startups, Kong and the oil can (and other objects)
appear on the screen in the same frame.

What you will see at the above link, however, is completely butchered by youtube. There are
frames missing. The few startups I looked at in the youtube upload, occur in just 3-4 frames.

So...I'm uploading the video file to google drive. It says it's going to take almost 3 hours to
upload. I won't be awake at that point, so I'll provide a download link in the morning.

02-13-2018, 09:09 PM
YesAffinity

And when I say "startup", the progression is as follows:

Frame 1 - How High Can You Get screen is gone, upper right girders appear
Frame 2 - All girders except bottom left corner (where the oil can sits) are present, most
ladders are present
Frame 3 - All ladders are present
Frame 4 - BONUS appears
Frame 5 - Kong, Lady, hammers, oil can and barrel stacks appear

02-13-2018, 09:23 PM
Omnigamer

YouTube only allows 60 fps playback on videos 720p and higher. You could attempt to
upscale/linedouble it to 960p to have access to full frames on YT.

02-13-2018, 11:37 PM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)

Tim Sczerby was S.C.R.E.W.E.D. !!!

Carry on...
Exhibit A - 000412
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 412/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Attachment 50254

02-14-2018, 05:15 AM
CWK

The messengers are not cowards. They are little bit***s. Go do this for me, go do that for
me...yes master

02-14-2018, 05:20 AM
maximumsteve
3 Attachment(s)
Pics from Robert Childs...

Hello All. Again I am relaying this from Robert Childs as he does not have an account on
TG....

Here are the pictures of the two-bit converter board along with a scan of the receipt.
We bought 2 converter boards over a 3 year period, 1 of which I have in my
possession now. I am not sure where the other one is but around here somewhere.
Many have questioned the existence of a convertor as explained in the original post,
since the setup in question was done years ago. But everything used in the creation
of that tape is being brought together....Attachment 50257Attachment 50258Attachment
50259

02-14-2018, 05:28 AM
Ninglendo

Nice the converter board has audio jacks that were never used.

02-14-2018, 05:30 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

My god, did they all cheat? It's just craziness.

Not all of us. But there was a lot. And time/technology/knowledge etc... seem to be catching
up. Finally.

02-14-2018, 05:31 AM
CWK

Billy's train of thought is hear no evil, see no evil

02-14-2018, 05:31 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omnigamer

YouTube only allows 60 fps playback on videos 720p and higher. You could attempt to
upscale/linedouble it to 960p to have access to full frames on YT.

Exhibit A - 000413
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 413/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Ok good to know. I was trying to ensure my hardware and software wouldn't impose any
unnecessary influence on the raw video, to the maximum extent possible, but YouTube
thwarted that effort. :(

I sent the Google drive download link to jace he said he's going to "upload it into the TG
video hosting service and place it in the dispute thread for all to reference." Thank you, Jace!

I think its worth noting the affect of youtube on this particular upload, and the fact that what
we have been evaluating from Billy's performances, if I'm not wrong, is all coming from
YouTube. I know it's already been touched on, but this experience has reinforced that the
videos we are reviewing of billy's play have been through various touch points, each of which
is likely affecting the quality, discarding frames. Is there any possibility of getting the original
tapes or getting a few degrees closer to the original footage?

Again, just voicing some impartial thoughts. Being the inquisitive type, i for one would like
to see no stone left unturned.

02-14-2018, 05:34 AM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

Nice the converter board has audio jacks that were never used.

Exactly. No excuse to not have audio provided to us.

02-14-2018, 05:45 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Billy had Boomer DK PCB certified; later used by Wiebe at E3

A 100% out right lie.

The machine at E3 was owned by Patrick Scott Patterson.

02-14-2018, 06:10 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

A 100% out right lie.

The machine at E3 was owned by Patrick Scott Patterson.

Just in case I made an error in my notes, I'll listen again after work
but if someone beats me up it, please feel free to post to confirm my notes or propose
correction

02-14-2018, 06:17 AM
sprinter461
Exhibit A - 000414
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 414/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Just in case I made an error in my notes, I'll listen again after work
but if someone beats me up it, please feel free to post to confirm my notes or propose
correction

Please don't take that as to say I am calling YOU a liar in any manner. Not my meaning at all.
I apologize if you took it that way.

But if that was Billy's quote, it's a 100% lie.

02-14-2018, 06:22 AM
sprinter461

Patrick Scott Patterson

13 mins ·

I hear of another Billy Mitchell interview last night. I didn't not listen to it nor am I likely
to ever do so. However, this was brought to my attention.
Apparently, he claimed his "certified Donkey Kong board" was used for the Steve
Wiebe broadcast on G4TV at E3 2009.
That is a flat out lie.
The Donkey Kong machine used for that broadcast and everything on it and in it was
100 percent mine. One of the 15+ things I did to make that broadcast happen was to
be paid to shop out my personal Donkey Kong machine from top to bottom.
NBCUniversal shipped it (and me) out to Los Angeles for that broadcast.
I was on hand at the event as both a consulting producer and as the official tech for
the Donkey Kong machine there - MY Donkey Kong machine. Nothing went on or in
that machine without my involvement and approval.
We had every spare part possible on hand in the event of something needed, but
none were ever used. The only spare board we had on hand was from a Los Angeles
area arcade distributor, not Billy Mitchell.
In fact, Mitchell had nothing to do with the broadcast at all. We wanted him to play on
Day 2 of E3 that year - for a decent payday at that - and he declined. I also believe
he was filmed in Florida for a few vignettes that aired the day before.
That's it.
Any claim that a board owned by him was used at the E3 2009 broadcast on G4tv is
a lie. That machine was 100 percent mine, including the board.
I didn't need nor want his help to make that event happen.

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000415
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 415/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Patrick Scott Patterson16 mins ·

Scott will never post here. He never asked me to share this. I am doing this on my
own. I've been friends with Scott for years, and I 100% remember the lead up to that
event. Everyone was so excited to see a classic gamer get that chance, live on TV.
Scott was so jazzed that it was his machine being used. Logistically it was a royal
PITA to do what he did... but he was thrilled to be a part of it while representing TG at
the time.

Take it how you will...

02-14-2018, 06:23 AM
sprinter461

Well that posted like crap. Sorry cannot edit and straighten it up.

02-14-2018, 06:40 AM
The Evener

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000416
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 416/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by sprinter461

Please don't take that as to say I am calling YOU a liar in any manner. Not my meaning at all.
I apologize if you took it that way.

But if that was Billy's quote, it's a 100% lie.

None taken - just wanted to double check since I was afraid of potentially messing up my
notes.

i found the link - Billy assumes Pete used it for Steve at E3 as Pete took his certified PCB for
that purpose. The discussion begins around the 32:10 mark.

https://youtu.be/6JSzpjo8Oe0

02-14-2018, 06:43 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

None taken - just wanted to double check since I was afraid of potentially messing up my
notes.

i found the link - Billy assumes Pete used it for Steve at E3 as Pete took his certified PCB for
that purpose. The discussion begins around the 32:10 mark.

https://youtu.be/6JSzpjo8Oe0

The E3 machine, inside out, top to bottom, front to back was 100% Scott's machine. He
completely shopped the entire machine, dotting the i's, crossing the t's to make sure Steve had
a solid, stable machine at the event that wouldn't let him down... and should he set a record on
it live, they already knew it was 100% correct.

02-14-2018, 07:03 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

None taken - just wanted to double check since I was afraid of potentially messing up my
notes.

i found the link - Billy assumes Pete used it for Steve at E3 as Pete took his certified PCB for
that purpose. The discussion begins around the 32:10 mark.

https://youtu.be/6JSzpjo8Oe0

Patrick Scott Patterson Furthermore: Billy claims that Pete Bouvier went and picked up
a board from him to use for the E3 2009 event. Pete had nothing to do with that
broadcast beyond signing off on it. I did ALL the heavy lifting for that one. I do not
recall Pete ever saying he'd done such a thing, and even if he had - again, the
machine was 100 percent MY realm for that event, and I wouldn't have used the
board even if it had been sent. It's slightly possible that Pete went and got a board
from Billy to "shut him up" as he'd often say in response to doing things for Mitchell...
Exhibit A - 000417
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 417/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

but if so, he never told me about it, nor sent a board to me or to NBC. I personally
believe it's far more likely that Mitchell is either mistaking this with another event or
just flat out lying about it in yet another one of this passive-aggressive ways of trying
to step on my toes.
Manage

LikeShow more reactions

· Reply · 1m · Edited

02-14-2018, 07:17 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Exactly. No excuse to not have audio provided to us.

Playing devil's advocate, the inverter board offers an available connector. If you have spare
video cables lying around, then all you have to do is cut one end off the cable and splice to the
input cable of the Two Bits board, or direct solder to the solder side of the input header of the
Two Bits board. You would have to get a bit more creative for getting audio out of either the
sound amp or pulling it from the unused edge connector, which doesn't seem to be something
anyone ever considered could be a parallel a/v path until I did it - the edge connector tap that
is.

I'm now also wondering if there were conversations around this non-original implementation
being used within the cab. Given the heightened level of "it has to be original, verified,
double- and triple-checked in order to be acceptable for a score performance, let alone a
world record", was there ever any discussion about a) before the fact: can we do this direct
feed thing and will it be acceptable, b) after the fact: they had a parallel video source coming
from the cab, what are the implications? Of course, we believe that there was certain leeway
being given to Billy that wasn't given to others, but it still seems that it would've been
something that would've been talked about outside of Billy saying "I want it" and Robert
saying "here it is".

02-14-2018, 08:10 AM
IAmNerdJock
1 Attachment(s)

So is this an official thing now? Will we all be allowed to stand around the arcade he's playing
on and watch? I volunteer. I'm probably the only one here who's taller than Billy and can see
over his shoulders

Attachment 50262

Seems to me that in these peoples' eyes cheating is okay as long as you can replicate the
cheating without cheating after cheating.

Is @JaceHall going to make a decision before this, or is he going to wait until after? I don't
see why Billy being capable of doing something is a defense or a factor. If you're capable,
then do it.

02-14-2018, 08:16 AM
Blackflag82 Exhibit A - 000418
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 418/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Attachment 50262

Seems to me that in these peoples' eyes cheating is okay as long as you can replicate the
cheating without cheating after cheating.

Is @JaceHall going to make a decision before this, or is he going to wait until after? I don't
see why Billy being capable of doing something is a defense or a factor. If you're capable,
then do it.

I don't know who Robert Workman is, but it seems like the only people who think Billy
playing some games of DK will put this to rest are his supporters who keep showing they
don't understand the dispute at all.

a) I seriously doubt Billy can score a million in DK now

b) It won't matter because he cheated and he'll be off the score boards

02-14-2018, 08:46 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

a) I seriously doubt Billy can score a million in DK now

b) It won't matter because he cheated and he'll be off the score boards

I am wondering the same thing. The fact that someone says they saw him do it or were there
doesn't prove anything. He did this score in 2010, he claims people were filming all around
WHILE he was playing and yet no one posted any videos at all. This was 3 years after the
iPhone came out. If people filmed him playing while he was setting the records there would
be more video of it. There is video from random guys playing arcade games for far lesser
reasons all over youtube. Also the arcade looks empty when the video starts when billy
seemingly blocks the machine from displaying the score.

02-14-2018, 08:58 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

This was 3 years after the iPhone came out. If people filmed him playing while he was setting
the records there would be more video of it.

Exhibit A - 000419
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 419/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

And yet there is video from Big Bang. And there was far fewer people present for his
announcement at the event, than what he and his entourage are now claiming was actually
present at Boomers during his performance.

02-14-2018, 10:04 AM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Is @JaceHall going to make a decision before this, or is he going to wait until after?

That's what I've been wondering, what will the Kong off 6 be like with all this going on? If it
were up to me, I'd resolve this dispute before then. I can't even imagine what a distraction like
this would look like live. I'm half way tempted to go.

02-14-2018, 11:44 AM
ShebaBaby

I watched this video this morning and it brings up some interesting questions regarding Billy's
dispute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FddGLtlAAQ0

02-14-2018, 11:51 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShebaBaby

I watched this video this morning and it brings up some interesting questions regarding Billy's
dispute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FddGLtlAAQ0

i took the time to listen to this as well, those questions have alreayd been answered a while
back in this very thread

02-14-2018, 12:32 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

i took the time to listen to this as well, those questions have alreayd been answered a while
back in this very thread

Can someone make an objective list of all the important questions that have been asked and
the answers & rebuttals, so there is an easy reference to noobies who join the thread?

02-14-2018, 12:40 PM
Scoundrl
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Under no circumstance have we been able to achieve this yet with the Original Arcade
hardware. We are finding this rasterization scenario to be impossible to be produced from the
Exhibit A - 000420
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 420/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

machine, which then makes it impossible for any recording device to record.We HAVE been
able to reproduce this rasterization separation with various versions of MAME and other
EMU types.If you can confirm or invalidate our findings on this issue with your original
hardware set up and provide that information to the dispute thread it would be helpful in our
overall evaluation of this assertion.

This does not appear to be true, I was able to in a few seconds find this shot in Ross's 1.136
game. The same thing happens about 30 seconds in. There does appear to be another smoking
gun that 'only happens on mame' but I have not tested that to confirm or deny it.-Ken

02-14-2018, 12:42 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShebaBaby

I watched this video this morning and it brings up some interesting questions regarding Billy's
dispute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FddGLtlAAQ0

These have all been answered not only by people disputing it, but also by TG themselves.
This video is the classic defense so far by Billy's supporters. It's the conversion of the video,
they are similar, you can't actually prove it since Billy's loads differently. Essentially, they
can't disprove that all of Billy's game videos, captured by multiple devices, all show MAME.
Triforce isn't really saying anything that hasn't already been said and countered.

02-14-2018, 12:56 PM
Robert.F
im sorry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoundrl

hay in sorry I`m a bit confused "but I have not tested that to confirm or deny it" what exscaly
are you saying ? and please dont talk like Jace , make it simple but not simpler :)

02-14-2018, 01:05 PM
Jace Hall
1 Attachment(s)

Update:

We have downloaded and are examining the new direct-feed capture performed by
@YesAffinity.

This 3rd party direct-feed video appears to be entirely consistent with our internal findings.

This video has been uploaded to the TG video hosting service so that it can be included as
part of the complete dispute record.

Here is the video:

Exhibit A - 000421
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 421/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Donkey Kong Original Arcade 480p/60 Direct Feed

Play Video
Play
Loaded:
0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1337216 Copy

Exhibit A - 000422
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 422/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If TG members would like to download the video directly for their own frame analysis they
can do so by clicking this link:

Donkey Kong Original Arcade 480p/60 Direct Feed

We are doing more testing, but we believe we have now successfully identified and have
nearly definitively confirmed one of the elemental "signature" attributes of an original arcade
Donkey Kong rasterization.

This "signature identifier:"

When initializing a Barrel Board for play, an Unmodified Original Donkey Kong Arcade
PCB WILL NEVER RASTERIZE (draw) the Donkey Kong character on the screen in a
different frame from the Oil Can (which appears in the lower left corner.)

This means that some of the presented evidence currently seems to be strongly
indicating that ANY recording that shows a single frame image of the Barrel Board with
the Oil Can present but not Donkey Kong (or vice-versa) could never have been
produced by an unmodified Original Donkey Kong Arcade PCB.

Any type of signal conversion from RGB to NTSC (or otherwise) from an unmodified
Original Donkey Kong PCB can not produce an image of the Oil Barrel without the
Donkey Kong character present, since that image does not ever exist in the original
signal.

Attachment 50283

We continue to investigate this specific issue further for the purposes of comprehensiveness.

02-14-2018, 01:34 PM
gavv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

hay in sorry I`m a bit confused "but I have not tested that to confirm or deny it" what exscaly
are you saying ? and please dont talk like Jace , make it simple but not simpler :)

Dunno, without a video source for others to examine, that 'cap' picture does look like a
photoshop. Some inconsistent compression artifacting makes it look like barrels could have
been erased to me

02-14-2018, 01:39 PM
Scoundrl

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavv

Dunno, without a video source for others to examine, that 'cap' picture does look like a
photoshop. Some inconsistent compression artifacting makes it look like barrels could have
been erased to me

The full video is being uploaded. I assure you, nothing was done to fake that picture.
Exhibit A - 000423
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 423/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-14-2018, 01:39 PM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Update:

This "signature identifier:"

Attachment 50283

We continue to investigate this specific issue further for the purposes of comprehensiveness.

This identifier may be false. I was looking at the video for the former world record of
1,138,600 by Hank Chien and there is a barrel board with the oil can but no Kong. The
transition at 28 minutes and 15 seconds the oil barrel gets drawn and Kong isn't on the screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg5ct3nrRzA&t=28m13s. Also again at 47 minutes and
38 seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg5ct3nrRzA&t=47m35s

02-14-2018, 01:49 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

Hmmm, we should ask Hank if he ever used Mame.

02-14-2018, 01:54 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

Exhibit A - 000424
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 424/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

That is just the ****ty quality of video, the barrel hasn't finished rasterizing yet, as it finishes
DK pops up. Probably just the ****ty quality combining frames. The barrel was not fully
rasterized before DK appeared.

02-14-2018, 01:56 PM
Robert.F
2007 Copy

I have a 2007 September 7th copy of Hanks WR 1.068.000 game, that he let me download
from his ftp server. its the original digital file from his digital Camera (i think hard drive not
tape) , that he used to record his dk game, I hope Hank dose not mind . i like to put it on a pen
drive and send it to TG ... i need an address , my upload crap it would take me a week ....

02-14-2018, 01:58 PM
Robert.F

Its 1.6 gb

02-14-2018, 02:07 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoundrl

Can you please post a link to this video?

02-14-2018, 02:07 PM
DadsGlasses

Just want to say Thank You to @Jace Hall and @TWIN GALAXIES for how they are
handling themselves in this dispute. Extremely professional and impartial. Thorough
examination of evidence only. Love it.

02-14-2018, 02:07 PM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)

I will ask Hank first before i send it .....Attachment 50287

02-14-2018, 02:13 PM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Exhibit A - 000425
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 425/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In the first example the barrel looks pretty well finished to me.

02-14-2018, 02:17 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

In the first example the barrel looks pretty well finished to me.

Hmm, that is actually interesting . I figured they were harping on one specific thing too much
when there is more than just the barrel for why it was mame.

02-14-2018, 02:30 PM
gavv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoundrl

The full video is being uploaded. I assure you, nothing was done to fake that picture.

no problem. all the compressing of video then to a still shot, it can be tough to discern since
especially in large single shade (ie black) areas, banding is inevitable

02-14-2018, 03:17 PM
Scoundrl

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavv

Dunno, without a video source for others to examine, that 'cap' picture does look like a
photoshop. Some inconsistent compression artifacting makes it look like barrels could have
been erased to me

The video was uploaded here but but there seems to be a plausible explanation for the lack of
kong.

The video is located here is anyone wants to check it out... I was using my local copy but this
one looks complete.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/48599753

02-14-2018, 03:19 PM
Jace Hall
3 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoundrl

This does not appear to be true, I was able to in a few seconds find this shot in Ross's 1.136
game. The same thing happens about 30 seconds in. There does appear to be another smoking
Exhibit A - 000426
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 426/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

gun that 'only happens on mame' but I have not tested that to confirm or deny it.-Ken

We have received and analyzed the video that @Scoundrl provided. Many thanks to him for
contributing here.

So far, we can not find any unexplainable inconsistencies with our current findings with
Original Donkey Kong Arcade rasterization. The conclusion regarding the variance seen in
the posted screenshot is the direct result of the source video capturing frame rate, which was
set to 25 fps.

Attachment 50289

At 25 fps, there was literally no way for all of the displayed frames to be captured by the
camera. And the camera snapping away at 25 fps while looking at a 30fps screen is invariably
going to catch the screen drawing right in the middle of a frame transition resulting in a split
screen (part of the old frame and part of the new frame) image being compressed and
encoded.

The split screen can appear as a diagonal line since the monitor refresh rate is faster than the
camera capture, so the refresh line will appear to "move" during the picture taking and
therefore the line will not be straight up and down (it will look diagonal.)

Here is an example of the diagonal line in action (right screen - Ken House). Here you are
actually looking at 2 different frames split across the diagonal line. The 25 fps camera took a
picture at that transitional moment, since it was not in synch. Notice how just a tiny portion of
the ladder is showing on the 3rd girder. It is being partially drawn (or erased) and the very
single frame it is drawn in has not yet completed its rasterization (or erasure.)

Attachment 50288

This occurrence is how the below image became possible. As you can see from the image
above, the upper left corner of the DK screen, the 25 fps digital capture rate catches the
incoming lower 1/2 diagonally half mid-frame, while the outgoing upper half is still present
on the CRT phosphors.
Attachment 50300

It is important to understand that this can not happen in a direct-feed scenario. An RGB to
NTSC conversion going straight to VHS tape never has this moment in the signal. There are
no CRT phosphors to hold a partial image for 1/60th of a second and the framerate / field
recording is exactly the incoming signal with no image recomposition being performed. The
above appears to be a visual artifact and image that got created by the external camera being
out of sync with an actual video display.

We we will continue to investigate this video. If @Scoundrl grants us permission to make it

available for download we will do so (or he can make it available himself.)

Onward.

02-14-2018, 03:24 PM
gavv

Exhibit A - 000427
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 427/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I looked back on xelnia's page 19 post with the original frame still gifs and with the one of the
direct camera footage of actual cab, you can see that with the mpeg encoding you see that
items from consecutive frames (Kong& barrels, and oil) show the same behavior, only there
the algorithm determined that the 'motion' (ie difference between the two frames) needed to
be interpolated with Kong being displayed first and the oil second), and the ladder behavior is
consistent with arcade and not mame.

02-14-2018, 03:24 PM
Asterra
5 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

In the first example the barrel looks pretty well finished to me.

Got tired of lurking. I knew this item was going to come back to haunt these proceedings but I
was leery of the verification process.

The oil drum-vs-Donkey Kong signature was never going to be fully reliable because
cameras, especially digital varieties, record things in sometimes unexpected ways.

The Hank Chien example posted earlier, for example ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=Tg5ct3nrRzA&t=28m13s ). Obviously we have oil drum before Donkey Kong here.

Fortunately, this video also serves as a perfect example of camera shenanigans. Scoot ahead
to 3h5m24s ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg5ct3nrRzA&t=3h5m24s ) and watch the
Donkey Kong screen frame by frame from that moment, as Hank is maneuvering his camera.
Because the camera is not stationary, you will be able to recognize that it is capturing the
Donkey Kong screen at this moment in a weird fashion: Half of the newest frame is
overwriting half of the previous frame, along a diagonal line from the upper-left to the lower
right:

Attachment 50293Attachment 50294

At this moment in the video, the screen is moving downwards (camera moving upwards). The
lower-left half is the newer Donkey Kong frame, and is a little bit lower in the video's frame.
The upper-right half is the previous frame.

Further complicating this specific phenomenon is the fact that this diagonal offset (as
indicated by the yellow line) is not static but travels to the right before looping back to the left
-- also easily recognizable through frame-by-frame scrutiny of Hank's video.

Now. If I were to cite a specific signature unique to both MAME and Billy's videos, but not
reproducible through a happy video accident, let alone countless times across three separate
high score runs, it would have to be Xelnia's original MAME 0.116-0.121 barrel transition:

MAME .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Billy
Attachment 50298Attachment 50297

More specifically this thing here:

Attachment 50299

Exhibit A - 000428
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 428/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

We have the top third of the board partially rendered, one bar conveniently complete from left
to right with no breaks, and that uniquely cut-off bit on the bar below it. That's your smoking
gun. To the best of my reckoning, you will never have a camera or a VCR spit that out if you
start from a real Donkey Kong machine, and certainly not across multiple instances in the
same run.

02-14-2018, 03:25 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

25fps? Hmmm can't imagine why anyone would record it at that specific of a frame rate
instead of the standard 30 or 60. Is this a Billy supporter?

02-14-2018, 03:32 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavv

Billy's videos are direct feed, Jace's post addresses how those are different.

02-14-2018, 03:34 PM
Barra

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

25fps? Hmmm can't imagine why anyone would record it at that specific of a frame rate
instead of the standard 30 or 60. Is this a Billy supporter?

I can’t speak for Ken but that video was produced in 2013.

02-14-2018, 03:36 PM
Asterra

I see most of the point behind my previous post was rendered moot while I was putting it
together, thanks to Jace Hall's reassuringly astute summary. Well, there were really two
points, the chief one being the concern that the oil drum/DK tell would not prove to be
reliable, and my own preferred candidate, the broken beam.
Exhibit A - 000429
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 429/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-14-2018, 03:39 PM
Scoundrl

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

25fps? Hmmm can't imagine why anyone would record it at that specific of a frame rate
instead of the standard 30 or 60. Is this a Billy supporter?

I do not know why xsplit chose to record at 25fps, I did not make any specific framerate
tweaks that I can recall.

I am not a support or and opponent of Billy. I want the truth to come out no matter who is
right or wrong.

02-14-2018, 03:48 PM
bh_

I don't think this has been mentioned before, but MAME isn't guaranteed to run at 100%
speed. On my computer it runs Donkey Kong at about 99.7% real time.

Here's a side by side of gameplay taken from KoK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=jkwECcfqX_I

The 1UP in Billy's game blinks slightly slower than Wiebe's. The overall cycle takes
approximately 16 frames. By 33 seconds, the 1UP counters are completely out of phase,
meaning that Billy has missed 8 frames. Around a minute, the 1UPs return to phase which
puts Wiebe a full 16 frames ahead. This means that the game on the left is running at 98% of
the rate of the game on the right.

I can't say if this is due to a mismatch between recording and playback speeds, but it might be
worth investigating.

02-14-2018, 03:55 PM
gavv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra

I can’t speak for Ken but that video was produced in 2013.

Is PAL 25fps/50fieldps?

02-14-2018, 04:14 PM
Robert.F

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmLr0DqHdjI

02-14-2018, 04:29 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmLr0DqHdjI
Exhibit A - 000430
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 430/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This is the first fully coherent post I have seen from you yet man! Good stuff.

02-14-2018, 08:13 PM
deverett
Two Bit Score converter PCB

Looking at the pcb presented in the pictures. The chip appears to be the Fujitsu MB3516A.
This chip does RGB to NTSC or PAL conversion. The giveaway is it is a 24 pin chip. I
checked the pinout and it seems to match as the RGB inputs go into pins 2,3 and 4.This chip
does NOT rearrange the video, so it would not account for the different drawing method
shown in the video. Dave

02-15-2018, 12:32 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

MAME .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Billy
Attachment 50298Attachment 50297

More specifically this thing here:

Attachment 50299

I agree that this is a much better indicator. Anything to be presented as final evidence must be
100% conclusive. Even if it's camera trickery, the fact that we can see the barrel without Kong
cannot be used as evidence of Billy playing MAME. It must be something which they can't
deny under any circumstances.

02-15-2018, 01:14 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

It must be something which they can't deny under any circumstances.

They will anyway.

02-15-2018, 01:34 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000431
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 431/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by bounty bob

It is important to understand that TG is reviewing and either confirming or invalidating the

evidence that gets presented in this dispute thread.

The tapes that are allegedly recordings of Billy Mitchell's gameplay are presented here as
evidence of non original arcade gameplay due to the characteristic of how the screen image is
being drawn. This is an assertion that we have to verify or invalidate through comprehensive
testing.

These source recordings are direct-feed recordings, and are not captured by a camera.

Therefore no "camera trickery" can take place in regard to this specific piece of evidence.
This is an important point.

This is why it has been important to establish that an Original Donkey Kong Arcade PCB
literally will not ever produce a single visual frame where the Oil can is present but the
Donkey Kong character is not. Establishing this as a baseline is important because it means
that a direct feed signal that connects to a VHS recording device can never contain the image
of those two items drawn separately that you might see with "camera trickery."

So far, all testing indicates that it literally can not happen and we have a very consistent
baseline (along with other indicators like girders/etc.)

Given that we have established that an original DK PCB will not ever produce a single frame
containing the DK character without the Oil Can on the Barrel Board, we have to then
investigate the nature of each digital version of the Billy Mitchell evidence recordings.

The youtube videos of the alleged Billy Mitchell recordings may have been captured from the
original VHS tapes in such a way that "camera trickery" (if a screen was filmed to produce
the digital copy) or some other technical issue caused loss of data or split frame display
similar to what @Scoundrl produced - resulting in the appearance of what looks to be non-
Original Arcade Donkey Kong gameplay.

There is also the video footage provided by @timmell that needs to be closely analyzed for
similar issues.

We are making efforts to acquire the original tapes so that we might be able to scrutinize them
and eliminate the unknown digital capture methods used in putting those particular tapes on
Youtube. We will see what we can find.

Please know that we are looking into all aspects of this dispute as fairly and as
comprehensively as possible.

02-15-2018, 02:07 AM
karljobst

Quote:

Originally Posted by bh_

Exhibit A - 000432
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 432/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I don't think this has been mentioned before, but MAME isn't guaranteed to run at 100%
speed. On my computer it runs Donkey Kong at about 99.7% real time.

Here's a side by side of gameplay taken from KoK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=jkwECcfqX_I

I can't say if this is due to a mismatch between recording and playback speeds, but it might be
worth investigating.

I mentioned this on a previous page. I was planning to sync up the footage with other MAME
footage to see if it matched but no one seemed to care about this point so I didnt bother lol

02-15-2018, 02:59 AM
bh_

Jeremy Young repeated and completed the transcription of the 1.04m WR game. Between
four barrels I missed due to poor video quality and the remainder of the run, scoring is very
good but not exceptional. I'll let Jeremy post about this game if he'd like but I wanted to put
the record straight.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the 1.04 game does exhibit MAME rendering order.

02-15-2018, 10:46 AM
Scoundrl
3 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoundrl

While I was able to reliably duplicate this across multiple cameras it does appear to be a
combination of hardware and software mixing frames together. Once I got a setup I trusted
(90^ rotated camera recording at 720p @60fps) I was not able to reproduce a single frame
where Kong and the oil can are not both on the screen together.

Sorry to add to the noise.

-Ken

02-15-2018, 11:10 AM
IAmNerdJock

Please upload the video.

02-15-2018, 11:15 AM
RomulusVonFlex
Exhibit A - 000433
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 433/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoundrl

Sorry to add to the noise.

-Ken

No worries man, we are all trying to be as thorough as possible.

02-15-2018, 11:28 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

It is important to understand that TG is reviewing and either confirming or invalidating the
evidence that gets presented in this dispute thread.

These source recordings are direct-feed recordings, and are not captured by a camera.

Therefore no "camera trickery" can take place in regard to this specific piece of evidence.
This is an important point.

So far, all testing indicates that it literally can not happen and we have a very consistent
baseline (along with other indicators like girders/etc.)

There is also the video footage provided by @timmell that needs to be closely analyzed for
similar issues.
Exhibit A - 000434
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 434/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Please know that we are looking into all aspects of this dispute as fairly and as
comprehensively as possible.

you mention "alleged tapes". It would be a shame if at the end of all this billy just says "those
arent my tapes". Have you tried to get to billy to confirm or deny anything involved? What
frustrates me about all this, is billy largely lets others talk for him, which allows him (or
rather others) to just keep changing the defense every time a flaw is found. It seems much like
making a mame recording to restart whenever anything goes wrong and try again until things
go right, billy is using other to just try any excuse, and then restart with a new proxy to make
different excuses for him when the old ones don't work out. Getting billy himself to actually
make a stance would prevent this sort of real life save state/load state or differing excuses
billy's allies are using. Some questions I'd love for billy to commit either way are

1. That video timmell took, does billy acknowledge it was in fact his own tapes at that event?
Obviously we can never discount timmell or someone else may have doctored the tapes
afterwards, but does billy at least acknowledge he was at that event showing his tapes of the
score

2. does billy remember exactly to whom he sent the tapes. I know we all have pieced together
who we think it was, but it would be nice to get the answer from him

3. does billy always turn over originals, or did he ever turn over a copy for this or other
scores. this is relevant, because if he admits to sometimes only sending in copies, it begs the
question how can we be sure there's even an original to find this time, and if he denies
sending in copies instead of the original, well, all we have to do is find one case where that
wasn't true to know he's lying to us

4. did pete witness it?

5. did he know sound wasnt going to be captured, if so, why was he ok with that

6. does he remember anything about the infamous board swap? I recognize he wont give
technical answers, but he was there, does he even remember seeing two different boards? does
he recall where one board was stored while the other board was being played? anything at all
he remembers about the two boards would be useful.

7. were there any witnesses, not where there any people who happened to walk by and only
glanced over for a second, but was there anyone he asked to witness the final score at a
minimum and ideally the gameplay itself.

8. he's been accused of calling up tg and trying to intimidate them to accept the score when at
first tg wasnt going to. Is he willing to explicitly deny this? is the accusation even loosely
based on anything he can think of?

I dont expect any of his answers to be taken on blind faith, but the fact that once he gives an
answer he cant change it later would help cut down on exploring contradictory angles and be
a real time saver

02-15-2018, 11:48 AM
Exhibit A - 000435
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 435/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

voodoo_chilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

1. That video timmell took, does billy acknowledge it was in fact his own tapes at that
event? Obviously we can never discount timmell or someone else may have doctored the
tapes afterwards, but does billy at least acknowledge he was at that event showing his tapes of
the score

In the video that shows the end (David Race's video), after he gets the top hammer (and a
fireball is coming up the far ladder) you can hear Billy comment "I should have gone straight
across". Later another fireball comes up the same ladder and he is trapped. That comment is
made BEFORE the next fireball comes up. So it is clear that he is very familiar with the game
performance of that screen, since he is commentating on it before an event happens. Here is
video in reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lpb...QgZeZks9Izjufg

02-15-2018, 11:50 AM
voodoo_chilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by voodoo_chilly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lpb...QgZeZks9Izjufg

que the video up to around 2:03 to hear comments

02-15-2018, 11:55 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by voodoo_chilly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lpb...QgZeZks9Izjufg

i know, i just want to give billy a chance to lie in the official dispute ;)

02-15-2018, 12:50 PM Exhibit A - 000436

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 436/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

2. does billy remember exactly to whom he sent the tapes. I know we all have pieced together
who we think it was, but it would be nice to get the answer from him

4. did pete witness it?

5. did he know sound wasnt going to be captured, if so, why was he ok with that

While it would be helpful if Billy Mitchell participated in this dispute thread to help clarify
things, it should be understood by the TG community that Billy is under no obligation to do
so. It should also be understood that TG's position is always that its database scores are
considered valid until definitively proven otherwise and that TG verified scores do not have
Exhibit A - 000437
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 437/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

to defend themselves or be re-adjudicated.

The burden is on the dispute claim to definitively prove itself valid, and TG admin's job is to
look at each relevant piece of evidence provided in the dispute claim and either verify or
invalidate what has been presented and then come to a decision. This is what we are in
process doing now.

The reason I use the term "alleged" when referring to the video tape youtube footage that has
been referenced in this dispute, is because despite what is contained in the footage, there has
been very little evidence provided that demonstrates that these are unaltered official
depictions of Billy Mitchell's performances. This will be something that TG admin will look
into once it finishes its investigation into the tape content itself.

Currently, the only definitive footage we have that ties Billy Mitchell to any footage provided
is the material submitted by @timmell

In any regard, the goal here is to be fair and comprehensive and to minimize assumptions on
our part. We will be methodical with this.

02-15-2018, 01:37 PM
Robert.F

So to submit a score you have to the burden of proof and to dispute one you have to have the
burden of proof ,,, and billy gets to do nothing

02-15-2018, 01:42 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

So to submit a score you have to the burden of proof and to dispute one you have to have the
burden of proof ,,, and billy gets to do nothing

I think the fact that todd was the witnessing referee makes the score invalid. Which sucks for
legitimate scores but he may have approved stuff without even watching it.

02-15-2018, 02:12 PM
cavman

IMO @Jace is being fair in this case and communicating in a concise manner. I believe Billy
cheated based on the evidence, but investigating every avenue and piece of evidence is the
right way to go about it.

02-15-2018, 02:22 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I think the fact that todd was the witnessing referee makes the score invalid. Which sucks for
legitimate scores but he may have approved stuff without even watching it.

i'm sure the reputation of early day refs will factor into people viewing of pre-tgsap scores (its
why i'd like to at least see filtering/or a split of the databse) but I dont think you can remove
Exhibit A - 000438
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 438/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

everyone's score based on referee alone.

Outside of the score itself being proved to have not happened (which there is progress on) the
only thing I could see along the lines of verifying referee is if rules were broekn to get it
verfied in the first place. For example, if the score was never verified and some hacker just
put it in the database, if bribes got the score in, if the rules of the day were not followed and
so it would've been DQed at the day but due to some oversight wasnt......

02-15-2018, 02:26 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

My point is basically nothing Todd says can be trusted, he faked and lied about multiple
scores. Even his scores he refereed are questionable.

02-15-2018, 04:29 PM
The Christian Pac-Man
1 Attachment(s)

Another indicator that your computer capture process likely missed frames that your
VHS capture might not have is that both your recent screenshot sequence and actual
video (when stepped through) are showing the complete rasterization of the pie
factory as well as the rivet board in many less discrete frames than it actually takes
both MAME and Original Arcade Donkey Kong to construct and send to the screen.

The example below shows the rivet board being completed in 2 frames in your video,
which we have confirmed is technically impossible for the game to do during normal
operation in MAME or Arcade, so frames seem to be demonstrably missing in your
computer capture"

Exhibit A - 000439
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 439/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This was part of a response Jace Hall posted (02-10-2018, 04:26 AM #831) in the TG
dispute thread over the comparison I made of the footage I transferred to VHS with
the same footage I uploaded to my computer through a digital A/V capture device.
The footage was from a recording of some of Billy's 1,062,800 game, as it was being
played back on a TV at the Big Bang 2010.

The only transition footage I captured for the rivet board shows completion in 2
frames.

This fact prompted the following, "The example below shows the rivet board being
completed in 2 frames in your video, which we have confirmed is technically
impossible for the game to do during normal operation in MAME or Arcade, so
frames seem to be demonstrably missing in your computer capture".

The implication is that my computer capture was missing frames, and that this is
somehow demonstrable. How, pray tell, can such a claim be demonstrated? Because
someone dictates that it must be so?

I have played the video back frame by frame on the very same camcorder used to
record it and, shock of all shocks, the rivet board is completed in 2 frames.

This can be seen in the video I uploaded to youtube (https://youtu.be/IRXLSTRNLO4)

along with this comment:

"Apparently some believe it is impressive, and not superfluous at all, to describe how
a digital camcorder works with respect to elements of the TG Donkey Kong dispute.
At any rate, here are some frames playing directly from the camcorder I used to
record some of Billy Mitchell's gameplay which was displayed at the Big Bang in
Ottumwa, Iowa. Yes, you can play frame by frame in either direction.

No frames were lost from my digital 8mm recording in transferring it to my computer.

Exhibit A - 000440
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 440/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If anything was lost, it was in the initial transmission of the VHS display to the Hi8
MP, 8mm Video Cassette I used in my camcorder. Both SP and LP record at 30 fps
by the way.

I recorded a digital stopwatch with this camera.

The following is a breakdown of that experiment with each time representing how
many hundredths of a second transpired between the registering of each frame.

.02

.04

.03

.02

.05

.04

.02

.05

.02

.06

.02

.05

.02

.05

(no change)

.06
Exhibit A - 000441
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 441/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

.03

.04

.03

.04

.02

.05

.02

.05

.02

.05

.02

.03

One must also keep in mind that the Donkey Kong refresh rate is between .01 and
.02 sec."

Actually, the statement from Jace Hall is false, and demonstrably so I might add.

I have demonstrated that my camcorder recorded the transition of the rivet board in 2
frames. If normal play on arcade and mame require more frames, will someone now
say that Billy didn't play on either? Considering the VHS playback and subsequent
capture by a digital 8mm camcorder, this whole line of reasoning is just plain silly. For
those interested, the video on youtube (https://youtu.be/4lpbM1Fr3Gs) also draws the
Exhibit A - 000442
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 442/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

rivet board in 2 frames.

I guess Chris Gleed's direct feed should also be examined because there are
examples of both the barrel and rivet boards being completed in 2 frames
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater).

The video Jace referenced showed the end of an elevator board plus barrel boards
with one rivet board in between.

He said, "Another indicator that your computer capture process likely missed frames
that your VHS capture might not have is that both your recent screenshot sequence
and actual video (when stepped through) are showing the complete rasterization of
the pie factory as well as the rivet board in many less discrete frames than it actually
takes both MAME and Original Arcade Donkey Kong to construct and send to the
screen."

Claiming how DK arcade, mame and video recording devices work, does not
translate into how things MUST be. This is an instance of that. Truth by fiat, by so-
called experts, basing their analysis NOT on actual observation but on what is
perceived to be possible or impossible is methodologically faulty.

I have seen sophomoric responses where all someone can do is focus on how the
ladders appear, and think this is somehow conclusive proof of something.

The picture below shows a comparison of a frame from one of Steve Wiebe's games
(1,049,100). The 1st is from a DVD copy and the second is from an MP4 copy of the
Exhibit A - 000443
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 443/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

DVD. Keep in mind this is the exact same frame. This isn't an issue of missing
frames. This was what my original post, that Jace commented on, was talking about.
The information that was on my original tape was translated or encoded differently to
VHS than it was to my computer. The VHS showed the right side of the screen with a
dark vertical line or bar where nothing was visible. The digital capture showed that
there was indeed something there, yet the transfer to VHS did not display it. The
same is true of Steve Wiebe's game. Ripping the DVD to a separate MP4 produced a
loss of encoded information where what was once visible became undetectable.

The process or rasterization deals with drawing and redrawing elements of the
screen. When I say that something is already on the screen, I am not talking about
missing or intermediate frames. I am talking about something that is there which you
cannot see, such as in the case of my original examples
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater) and that of Steve's game.

Thank you

Attachment 50380

02-15-2018, 04:39 PM
cavman

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

When I say that something is already on the screen, I am not talking about missing or
intermediate frames. I am talking about something that is there which you cannot see

It is there, but cannot be seen?

02-15-2018, 04:41 PM
Asterra

Well. It's probably a good thing the matter of the oil drum/Donkey Kong frame disparity was
adequately elaborated prior to the most recent post fixating upon it. It's just a matter of said
individual catching up on the technical details; the evidence he put forth makes it clear he
hadn't read the relevant posts yet.

02-15-2018, 05:11 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

"At minimum, I would encourage you to recapture your footage into your computer
using the DV OUT of your camera. It is the best way to make sure you get an exact
copy of what you filmed into your computer digitally. That information could
Exhibit A -be very
000444
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 444/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

helpful in the dispute evidence body should you choose to provide it.

Another indicator that your computer capture process likely missed frames that your
VHS capture might not have is that both your recent screenshot sequence and actual
video (when stepped through) are showing the complete rasterization of the pie
factory as well as the rivet board in many less discrete frames than it actually takes
both MAME and Original Arcade Donkey Kong to construct and send to the screen.

The example below shows the rivet board being completed in 2 frames in your video,
which we have confirmed is technically impossible for the game to do during normal
operation in MAME or Arcade, so frames seem to be demonstrably missing in your
computer capture"

The only transition footage I captured for the rivet board shows completion in 2
frames.

The implication is that my computer capture was missing frames, and that this is
somehow demonstrable. How, pray tell, can such a claim be demonstrated? Because
someone dictates that it must be so?

I have played the video back frame by frame on the very same camcorder used to
record it and, shock of all shocks, the rivet board is completed in 2 frames.
Exhibit A - 000445
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 445/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This can be seen in the video I uploaded to youtube (https://youtu.be/IRXLSTRNLO4)

along with this comment:

No frames were lost from my digital 8mm recording in transferring it to my computer.

If anything was lost, it was in the initial transmission of the VHS display to the Hi8
MP, 8mm Video Cassette I used in my camcorder. Both SP and LP record at 30 fps
by the way.

I recorded a digital stopwatch with this camera.

The following is a breakdown of that experiment with each time representing how
many hundredths of a second transpired between the registering of each frame.

.02

.04

.03

.02

.05

.04

.02

.05
Exhibit A - 000446
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 446/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

.02

.06

.02

.05

.02

.05

(no change)

.06

.03

.04

.03

.04

.02

.05

.02

.05

.02

.05

.02

.03

This shows the capture of each frame is not necessarily consistent. Given this, in
addition to the condition of the VHS recording and the fact it was being played back
on a TV, one can see how disparity can arise. I have seen the same thing with
respect to other DK videos where there is no dispute over whether it is arcade or
mame, and similar things happen even when the capture and encoding method are
considerably different from that used to produce Billy's video and how I recorded the
VHS display.
Exhibit A - 000447
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 447/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

One must also keep in mind that the Donkey Kong refresh rate is between .01 and
.02 sec."

Actually, the statement from Jace Hall is false, and demonstrably so I might add.

The video Jace referenced showed the end of an elevator board plus barrel boards
with one rivet board in between.

It did not show the pie factory, so either he misspoke or my video is missing a ton of
frames that I know nothing about. :) I will chalk this up as a simple mistake where he
meant to say barrel or girder board.
Exhibit A - 000448
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 448/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I have seen sophomoric responses where all someone can do is focus on how the
ladders appear, and think this is somehow conclusive proof of something.

The picture below shows a comparison of a frame from one of Steve Wiebe's games
(1,049,100). The 1st is from a DVD copy and the second is from an MP4 copy of the
DVD. Keep in mind this is the exact same frame. This isn't an issue of missing
frames. This was what my original post, that Jace commented on, was talking about.
The information that was on my original tape was translated or encoded differently to
VHS than it was to my computer. The VHS showed the right side of the screen with a
dark vertical line or bar where nothing was visible. The digital capture showed that
there was indeed something there, yet the transfer to VHS did not display it. The
same is true of Steve Wiebe's game. Ripping the DVD to a separate MP4 produced a
loss of encoded information where what was once visible became undetectable.

Thank you

Attachment 50380

Thanks for you continued posts here. At least you are doing it here. With that said, how can
you disprove of the all the videos rendering as MAME, by putting things in piece by piece,
instead of simply drawing the picture right to left? I understand what you are saying when
you say something could be there, but not actually seen, however that would only take place
in something is actually dropping frames like almost all recording devices would do. I am
agreeing you in those regards, however it does not explain why the original DK cabinets draw
pictures right to left with no piecing of elements while earlier versions of MAME that were
Exhibit A - 000449
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 449/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

available at the time Billy did this score do? Can you disprove those things? That to me is the
only way you are truly going to show ANYONE Billy may or may not have used MAME.
This is just how I'm reading it and being one of the few unbiased people you should be trying
to convince, I'm open for what you can show me. Again, all of the people at TG, even some
who give you sarcastic responses, do appreciate you doing this here.

02-15-2018, 06:02 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Another indicator that your computer capture process likely missed frames that your
VHS capture might not have is that both your recent screenshot sequence and actual
video (when stepped through) are showing the complete rasterization of the pie
factory as well as the rivet board in many less discrete frames than it actually takes
both MAME and Original Arcade Donkey Kong to construct and send to the screen.

The example below shows the rivet board being completed in 2 frames in your video,
which we have confirmed is technically impossible for the game to do during normal
operation in MAME or Arcade, so frames seem to be demonstrably missing in your
computer capture"

The only transition footage I captured for the rivet board shows completion in 2
frames.

This fact prompted the following, "The example below shows the rivet board being
completed in 2 frames in your video, which we have confirmed is technically
Exhibit A - 000450
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 450/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

impossible for the game to do during normal operation in MAME or Arcade, so

frames seem to be demonstrably missing in your computer capture".

The implication is that my computer capture was missing frames, and that this is
somehow demonstrable. How, pray tell, can such a claim be demonstrated? Because
someone dictates that it must be so?

I have played the video back frame by frame on the very same camcorder used to
record it and, shock of all shocks, the rivet board is completed in 2 frames.

This can be seen in the video I uploaded to youtube (https://youtu.be/IRXLSTRNLO4)

along with this comment:

No frames were lost from my digital 8mm recording in transferring it to my computer.

If anything was lost, it was in the initial transmission of the VHS display to the Hi8
MP, 8mm Video Cassette I used in my camcorder. Both SP and LP record at 30 fps
by the way.

I recorded a digital stopwatch with this camera.

The following is a breakdown of that experiment with each time representing how
many hundredths of a second transpired between the registering of each frame.

.02
Exhibit A - 000451
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 451/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

.04

.03

.02

.05

.04

.02

.05

.02

.06

.02

.05

.02

.05

(no change)

.06

.03

.04

.03

.04

.02

.05

.02

.05

.02

.05
Exhibit A - 000452
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 452/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

.02

.03

One must also keep in mind that the Donkey Kong refresh rate is between .01 and
.02 sec."

Actually, the statement from Jace Hall is false, and demonstrably so I might add.

The video Jace referenced showed the end of an elevator board plus barrel boards
with one rivet board in between.

Exhibit A - 000453
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 453/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I have seen sophomoric responses where all someone can do is focus on how the
ladders appear, and think this is somehow conclusive proof of something.

Exhibit A - 000454
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 454/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Thank you

Attachment 50380

I should clarify a little. Your defense is based on may be possible/may not be possible. TG
and the ones disputing have given evidence that has, since day one, never been shown for any
reason to be inaccurate. That is the difference I am seeing right now. I also don't understand if
you are looking at the same footage they are, how is it that they are always seeing it one way
and you are always seeing it as the opposite? They say it "is" this way and no other way could
do it, you are saying it's possible it could happen. Show how it is possible? I know you have
tried, but TG has gone back and looked everything you have presented and they shown what
you are saying is not accurate and only backs up their evidence. I'm trying to understand what
you are doing differently to get these results that contradict them. Otherwise, I've still got to
side with them.

02-15-2018, 06:11 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

I see that in response to this request, you posted a snippet of the original video on the
camcorder's view finder, with the playback recorded by a second camera, which was then
uploaded to YouTube.

02-15-2018, 07:38 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

I see that in response to this request, you posted a snippet of the original video on the
camcorder's view finder, with the playback recorded by a second camera, which was then
uploaded to YouTube.

It would be much more valuable for everyone if we could analyze your source video with a
direct upload to YouTube. Otherwise, we can't reasonably determine who's interpretation of
the source video evidence is false.
Exhibit A - 000455
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 455/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

[/COLOR]

Christrian Pacman seems determined not to use Youtube. This is not the first time we've asked
to him upload videos instead of pics

02-15-2018, 07:40 PM
datagod
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 50387

I have a tingling sense that a judgement will be made soon...

02-16-2018, 06:58 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Attachment 50387

I have a tingling sense that a judgement will be made soon...

I definitely see it in the next week or two. Also, the new design of the forums is fantastic.
Subtle changes but welcome and user friendly.

02-16-2018, 01:44 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Which video was this taken from? I've uploaded many, in myriad attempts to replicate what
we see in the billy videos, as well as some at Jace's request. It would be good, if any of my
uploads are excerpted from, that the link be provided, so we can know the reference. I
provided details of the configuration in the description of each upload.

But, to the greater point, yes with various encodings, compressions, iterations of the video, it
loses quality and frames. In no case was I able to produce a video that did not have at least
some of the "sliding door" frames whereby you can see the stacked Donkey Kongs wiped
from the screen, in a right-to-left fashion, as we believe arcade hardware should behave. Yet,
we never see it once on Billy's videos. Now, possibly with one more round of loss on any of
my videos, we get to that point, possibly two more rounds...who knows. But, the point is also
that with a direct feed from an arcade board, the barrel will never appear on the screen before
Donkey Kong does. It does happen in MAME, however. And in Billy's video. The videos
being reviewed by TG and confirmed to have this occurrence are believed to be direct feed
that has not been "tainted" by a external camera or external recording device (external
meaning not directly connected by a A/V cable). But it seems that still needs to be
Exhibit A fully
- 000456
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 456/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

verified and/or fully verified tapes need to be provided to TG.

So maybe that's the defense - the tapes don't exist and accepted scores don't get overturned
without that piece of proof. It would be a shame it that's the outcome. Won't be a good taste in
anyone's mouth. (and, for the record, whatever I may or may not believe currently, I am not
for or against a particular outcome, other than wanting the end result to be an outcome that is
definitive and we can have confidence in it. Thank you to everyone who is working hard
toward that goal.)

02-16-2018, 01:47 PM
YesAffinity

video *of arcade hardware* that did not have at least some of the "sliding door" frames

02-16-2018, 03:23 PM
TWIN GALAXIES
1 Attachment(s)
TAPES ARE NOW IN HAND

Tapes are now in hand.

Attachment 50462

Some appear to have Walter Day's personal handwriting on them.

We are in the process of authenticating. Once complete we will then perform analysis on the
tapes that are pertinent to this dispute thread.

This will take time. We appreciate your patience.

02-16-2018, 03:34 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES

Tapes are now in hand.

Attachment 50462

Some appear to have Walter Day's personal handwriting on them.

We are in the process of authenticating. Once complete we will then perform analysis on the
tapes that are pertinent to this dispute thread.

This will take time. We appreciate your patience.

For everyone's edification what is the source of these tapes?

02-16-2018, 03:36 PM
JJT_Defender

Exhibit A - 000457
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 457/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Good Now we Can Check for Verification

This Will Answer a Few Questions Now That Twin Galaxy Owner Jace Hall has the VHS
Tapes Hopefully he Lets All Twin Galaxy Members Watch & Analize

A few Questions Will be Answered here:

1. Was it played on the Arcade or was it on MAME?

2. If The Video of Billy Mitchell Arcade Donkey Kong Points Hammer Allowed World
Record Score at the Time of 1,062,800 Shows that
Billy Actually Played At Boomers Amusement Park

If this is Not on Billy's Arcade Donkey Kong Game Play Then without a doubt Billy Never
Ever Played Their Simple As That.

02-16-2018, 03:59 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES

Tapes are now in hand.

Attachment 50462

Some appear to have Walter Day's personal handwriting on them.

We are in the process of authenticating. Once complete we will then perform analysis on the
tapes that are pertinent to this dispute thread.

This will take time. We appreciate your patience.

I see 1047 and 1050 but not 1062 which is what is being disputed

02-16-2018, 04:02 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

I see 1047 and 1050 but not 1062 which is what is being disputed

Any evidence of a player cheating is enough to get them banned. If ANY of Billy's actual
verified tapes are MAME he is out of Twin Galaxies.

02-16-2018, 04:19 PM
Marcade

Apollo Legend is back...Good timing as always!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=234Y76_3YPE Exhibit A - 000458

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 458/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-16-2018, 04:22 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjt_defender

A few Questions Will be Answered here:

The question at the top of my list right now is: Where did they come from?

(There's a valid reason why this matters.)

02-16-2018, 04:33 PM
Barra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Apollo Legend is back...Good timing as always!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=234Y76_3YPE

That video is unlisted and hasn’t officially been released or finalised yet.

02-16-2018, 04:37 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

The question at the top of my list right now is: Where did they come from?

(There's a valid reason why this matters.)

I'm glad TG was able to recover the tapes - I'm sure we'll learn more details about the chain of
custody after the authentication alluded to by the post (eg. Walter's custodianship of those
apparently bearing his writing).

02-16-2018, 04:38 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Sorry, Walter's original custodianship of those apparently bearing his writing

02-16-2018, 04:50 PM
Robert.F

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000459
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 459/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

I see 1047 and 1050 but not 1062 which is what is being disputed

Oh Man that like saying this dispute started with assault with a hand gun and we should keep
the focus on that...after two other people have been found dead with bullets from the same
hand gun

02-16-2018, 04:58 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

I see 1047 and 1050 but not 1062 which is what is being disputed

That is true, but part of Xelnia's evidence package included analysis of 1047 and 1050 to
demonstrate the difference between arcade and MAME, so in that context there's interest in
reviewing TG's original copies of those scores. My own conclusion is that the 1062 was never
formally turned over to TG; the last verified person to have the tapes - after Todd Rogers
handled them Friday night, and after head referee David Nelson handed them to Billy
Mitchell - was in fact Billy Mitchell, who cued up the tapes in his VCRs to accompany his
Big Bang IVGHOF presentation. In theory, we *could* have a third look at the IVGHOF DK
video if Christian Pac Man decides to upload the source video to YouTube, but I'm not
convinced that will happen after several requests.

02-16-2018, 05:21 PM
thegamer1185

02-16-2018, 05:43 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Apollo Legend is back...Good timing as always!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=234Y76_3YPE

It's mentioned in this (prelimilary) video that Billy's second score has audio. Anyone have a
link to this? Youtube has a video of someone playing the tape on a TV, but they completely
cut the audio out once the video begins -- and by that I mean they cut the camera's audio so
even the room ambiance is gone.

02-16-2018, 05:59 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

This will be interesting. If these tapes are MAME, lots of people will be brought down with
them. I truly hope they are legit. If they aren't, they have Walter's handwriting on them, and
Exhibit A - 000460
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 460/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

any TG ref that say they have watched and "verified" them will likely suffer as well.

I wouldn't expect a TG ref who verified a VHS tape to 1. go frame by frame and look for
MAME signatures and 2. even be aware of the difference between arcade and MAME
rasterization. How many of us reading and participating in this thread even knew about the
screen drawing differences between arcade and MAME before Jeremy spelled it out for
everyone? There are other reasons to put the fire under a ref but this isn't one of them.

02-16-2018, 06:08 PM
ant3x7

First off, a quick introduction:

I first heard about this a week ago and found it absolutely fascinating. As such, I've spent the
past few days reading through this thread and doing as much research into this subject as
possible, and now I've decided to help contribute to this discussion.

I've decided to do capture the stage buildup of just the barrel stage from several YouTube
videos and place them in a single view for analysis. As an unbiased third-party, I won't
provide any analysis as I'll leave it to the hands of the experts. Also in order not to cherry pick
any specific instances, I've decided to arbitrarily take the first five barrel stages of each WR
run. If there's enough interest, I may do the entire Billy Mitchell videos in order to lay out all
the evidence in once place. Also, please let me know if there's any specific videos that I
should include.

Robbie Lakeman 1230

https://youtu.be/0tJzMCIZzgQ

https://i.imgur.com/wMebNbb.gif https://i.imgur.com/dnpRzeX.gif
https://i.imgur.com/cks9tOF.gif https://i.imgur.com/UqnrV2v.gif
https://i.imgur.com/P0aHiyt.gif

Hank Chien 1138

https://youtu.be/Tg5ct3nrRzA

https://i.imgur.com/3MqFG71.gif https://i.imgur.com/WD1C1Bh.gif
https://i.imgur.com/QHWgURd.gif https://i.imgur.com/zXh8HYz.gif
https://i.imgur.com/frW9hIK.gif

Wes Copeland 1218

https://youtu.be/23RNHhzMbew

https://i.imgur.com/b4AJoyO.gif https://i.imgur.com/aNIh21i.gif
https://i.imgur.com/hkcmFQZ.gif https://i.imgur.com/iy0LP94.gif
https://i.imgur.com/klnsNoT.gif

Steve Weibe 1049 Settle in on the Screen

https://youtu.be/NOiAFCHqT6A

https://i.imgur.com/VWR2cS8.gif https://i.imgur.com/CRXydi6.gif
https://i.imgur.com/ZIE3Ngq.gif https://i.imgur.com/sm7bcgx.gif
https://i.imgur.com/wMebNbb.gif

02-16-2018, 06:08 PM
Exhibit A - 000461
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 461/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

ant3x7

Billy Mitchell 1047 Direct Feed

https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk

https://i.imgur.com/FssG51k.gif https://i.imgur.com/J6llvAC.gif
https://i.imgur.com/Cg9mq4Q.gif https://i.imgur.com/0rkBC6t.gif
https://i.imgur.com/iqB5UW7.gif

Billy Mitchell 1047 Direct Feed

https://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI

Billy Mitchell 1050 Settle in on the Screen

https://youtu.be/hbRN549NYuU

https://i.imgur.com/pscorcQ.gif https://i.imgur.com/CG0hhEh.gif
https://i.imgur.com/RinPa5M.gif https://i.imgur.com/DU1uXw4.gif

Billy Mitchell 1062 HandyCam Footage

https://youtu.be/4lpbM1Fr3Gs

https://i.imgur.com/d6PD8m1.gif https://i.imgur.com/TWsZTWo.gif
https://i.imgur.com/l7nMK8W.gif

02-16-2018, 06:11 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I was referring to the score being accepted through means other than being reviewed like they
should have been. This has been brought up by RTM a couple times how Billy had his scored
just moved right through with no verification other than, Billy said so. That can't be ignored
IMO. It is however my opinion. I wish every dirty ref was simply gone and never mentioned
with TG again, but that will never happen.

02-16-2018, 06:13 PM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

Billy Mitchell 1047 Direct Feed https://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI

This should've been labeled as Billy Mitchell 1050 Direct Feed Exhibit A - 000462
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 462/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-16-2018, 06:14 PM
Robert.F
just an observation

just an observation

02-16-2018, 06:22 PM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
just an observation

just an observationAttachment 50491

02-16-2018, 06:24 PM
Robert.F

So Walter when throw all the trouble back in the day to remove tape labels to put his own on ?

02-16-2018, 06:29 PM
bjones

Just pure curiosity here, has anyone actually tried doing a modern vhs recording of a game via
a real cab and via mame? Given that Old school VHS is 29.97 FPS, if you factur an extremely
small lag/degredation from the capture card itself and post that result at it's native framerate
the frame rate is half that of modern performance recordings with 60fps high def cameras that
capture significatnly faster.

I'd be interested in seeing the results of that test. If you compare video to video under the
same recording method and conditions in their natural state as it was done in the KOK days
do you see similar dropped frames or behaviors that would mimic what we see on the more
modern recordings?

02-16-2018, 06:33 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

This should've been labeled as Billy Mitchell 1050 Direct Feed

Minor note: The indicated GIFs are in fact the same exact files as the 1047 GIFs which
preceded them.

02-16-2018, 06:37 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

So Walter when throw all the trouble back in the day to remove tape labels to put his own on ?

That's an easy and frankly not at all suspicious answer. Or, probably more likely, they didn't
have labels to begin with. The two scores arrived in close chronology with one another.
Missing or unclear labels? Fix it with a spare sheet of blanks.

Exhibit A - 000463
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 463/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-16-2018, 06:43 PM
Robert.F
sdfgsef

Well there you go the word of the day chronology :) is this right ? both tapes where made with
in one event ?

02-16-2018, 06:47 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjones

The various esoteric phenomena associated with conflicting framerates, screen draw / camera
capture patterns etc. have been either dutifully expatiated or referenced in summary
assurances that those in charge of reviewing evidence have an adequately solid grasp of the
technical details.

But for what it's worth, in this case I probably won't be the only person to point out that
you've fallen for a classic fallacy when it comes to comprehending the meaning of frames in
the context of non-digital video. To keep it short, suffice it to say that a VHS recording would
be perfectly capable of representing the full temporal resolution of Donkey Kong's output.
What happens after that is potentially (and usually) an entirely different story.

02-16-2018, 06:50 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Well there you go the word of the day chronology :) is this right ? both tapes where made with
in one event ?

It means there wasn't a vast span of time between their individual acquisition, so it potentially
makes sense that the inspiration to provide (possibly replacement) labels would end up
affecting both tapes.

02-16-2018, 06:56 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

just an observationAttachment 50491

Our understanding is that at various points in TG history, copies were made of performances
so that they could be distributed to multiple referees to review. It is possible that these tapes
were copies that were made by one person prior to distribution to referees.
Exhibit A - 000464
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 464/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-16-2018, 07:01 PM
RTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=234Y76_3YPE

I just watched this "Apollo Legend" YouTube video. Two comments worth mentioning.

1st - he has some of the facts behind the 1.047M incorrect

2nd - the clip showing Robert Childs extracting one board and then putting in a different
board...this is a break in continuity of taping, technically, as the camera panned away after the
first board was extracted and it focused on Billy, and then it panned back to the installation of
the second board...which we now now was likely the same as the previous one. So technically
whatever was filmed afterwards should not have passed adjudication

That aside, the 1.047M "story" as described by Apollo Legend was incorrect. Here's what
happened in sequence as best as I can remember...

************************

1st - Billy arranged to have a tape shipped to gamer Greg Erway ("Tapper" TGTS champion)
to bring to the ACAM 2005 event. We watched that tape in my cabin and found out that it was
not a game performance at all...I think it was a wrestling TV show taped.

2nd - Billy was called and said he would ship via overnight express a tape to be picked up by
Brian Kuh at the nearby airport. Curiously there was a camera person there to capture all of
this...I wonder why.

3rd - Kuh brought the tape over and showed "part one" in the Cram cabin at Sun Valley after
Funspot had closed for the night. Kuh said his "instructions" were to show the tape in third
with the final third being shown at ACAM

4th - so much noise was made in the cabin that Kuh and everyone else was not invited back to
watch "part two" the following night, so we watched that in my cabin (cottage 5) with Walter
present, Kuh, one of the documentary guys (Josh or Ross Tuttle, I think) and a few others.

5th - Prior to the end of "part two" in the 600K-range it was clear that the copy was
problematic in terms of clarity and general quality. At the end of "part two" a lot of people left
but a few stayed behind to watch the rest even against Bill's instructions to Brian. It was then
that we discovered at the 1M roll-over the major glitch and we speculated that this was not a
"master tape". We also told Walter that this could not possibly be accepted by TG, but mind
you Billy had never formally submitted it for TG...this was to be shown "for entertainment
purposes"

6th - on a side note, Wiebe showed up on that same night and Kuh would not allow him to
watch the tape claiming Billy explicitly said Steve could not. Mark Alpiger was there and
ended up leaving with Wiebe but I cannot remember if Alpiger was ALSO blocked from
seeing it. In any event, Steve did NOT...as KoK would have you believe...show up for the
showing of "part one" as he did not yet arrive at ACAM, one of the many mis-statements and
mis-directions that KoK is now famous for.

7th - another important point...Bill claims that he had no idea Steve was showing up at the
event yet he explicitly told Kuh NOT to show the performance to Wiebe. So much for his not
knowing.
Exhibit A - 000465
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 465/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

8th - on the following day (Saturday) Kuh actively tried to have a TV/VCR set up ON TOP of
the ACAM Donkey Kong machine knowing full well that Wiebe would be there...talk abour
poor sportsmanship. Thankfully ACAM senior management shut that stunt down before it
was completed, and as it ended up, the TV was propped up at the back of the arcade by where
the cocktail "Joust" machine typically is located, roughly 15-20 feet or so from where at the
time the DK machine was located.

9th - as Wiebe was playing his game under enormous pressure from the crowd watching him
AND knowing what was happening around the bend, Wiebe set a then-TG record on a "live"
DK performance of 985K...you have to give him credit for that and the gamers in attendance
really gave him a good congratulations for doing so

10th - unbeknownst to many people, Walter was not only sitting in a chair at the far corner of
the arcade chatting with Billy about his tape, he was being filmed doing so...over a tape that
supposedly Bill sent "for entertainment purposes only". At some point thereafter, either that
very Saturday evening or the following Sunday morning/afternoon, Walter was filmed in
Randy Lawton's workshop logging into TG (good move, Walter...letting them film you as you
logged in and typed your password) and entering the score into the TG database. Curiously
for KoK's purpose the "score screen" they showed was NOT the real TG leaderboard but a
digital artist's rendition...Tim Szcerby's name was missing from it.

11th - the following morning one of TG's senior referees quit over the stunt in protest. Walter
"explained" when I confronted him that Bill's intent was to offer $1,000 to anyone who could
break a million at the event, and $10,000 to anyone who could break that particular score of
1,047,200. I find that hard to believe since (A) Bill claimed not to know WIebe was showing
up and (B) aside from WIebe at the time, no other player had a prayer of doing so. Bill could
have offered $100K and it would not have mattered at that point.

12th - I won't even go into the fact that he not only intentionally set a score of exactly 100K
higher than Steve's original TG submission from 3-4 years earlier of 947,200 BUT he also
dumped points like crazy along the way and should have had a 1.095-1.125M range
game...have you ever heard of a world record holder intentionally dumping points just for the
heck of it ? Then again, this tape was supposed to be "for entertainment purposes only".

13 - I left ACAM early Sunday afternoon as I had work the next day in NYC. AT the time I
had no idea that Walter cranked in the Wiebe score into the TG database. I discovered this on
Monday morning as it was on the TG front page because back then the most recent 25 scores
entered would appear. I immediately called fellow TG Board of Directors member Brien King
and discussed the matter and we agreed to immediately yank down that score. Anyone who
owns the KoK DVD with the director comments can listen to them saying as much as our
decision to do so was not formally part of the theatrical release of KoK.

And that is the full story of the 1.047M tape to the best of my recollection.

Apollo did not mention the earlier 1.014M tape because while Billy DID submit that to TG,
he subsequently rescinded that submission once Wiebe's 1.006M was not going to be
immediately accepted by TG.

02-16-2018, 07:04 PM
RTM

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000466
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 466/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

RTM REPLY - Jace, I am personally aware of copies being made of the 1.047M once the
"master" tape was received...I just forget how many copies were made and to whom they were
sent but I could hazard a guess if push came to shove.

No idea if multiple copies were made of the 1.05 and 1.06M tapes as I never saw those
myself.

02-16-2018, 08:19 PM
CraigA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=234Y76_3YPE

02-16-2018, 10:00 PM
ant3x7

Correction to my previous post, here is the correct Mitchell 1050 Direct Feed:

Billy Mitchell 1050 Direct Feed

https://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI

https://i.imgur.com/zoOQKps.gif https://i.imgur.com/UMPjtQ9.gif
https://i.imgur.com/8rDaETr.gif https://i.imgur.com/hd1BmaO.gif
https://i.imgur.com/T5NIwkf.gif

02-16-2018, 10:05 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

Correction to my previous post, here is the correct Mitchell 1050 Direct Feed:

Billy Mitchell 1050 Direct Feed

https://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI

That definitely isn't right. I just paused it and there are mame rendering hallmarks. What parts
did you screen shot?

02-16-2018, 10:23 PM
Snowflake

I have a question for the MAME experts out there, did earlier versions of mame have issues
around the roll over mark?
Exhibit A - 000467
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 467/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Because I think of the strange things with the tape

1. no sound (you'd expect this with someone trying to hide evidence of mame)
2. crazy rng (you'd expect this with mame)
3. incorrect loading of screens (you'd expect this with mame)
4. video of a board swap that was fake (you'd expect this with someone trying to hide
evidence of mame)
5. tape having issue at the roll over point -- would you expet this if someone were trying to
hide evidence of mame?

02-16-2018, 11:08 PM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

That definitely isn't right. I just paused it and there are mame rendering hallmarks. What parts
did you screen shot?

I'm only seeing 3 frames for the stage transition on the video I downloaded from YouTube.
I'm only doing the first five barrel stages, so they are at 1:05, 5:11, 11:04, 17:11, 19:40. What
part did you pause it at? As a baseline, I've only done the first five barrel stages of each video
I extracted from. If there's another source of video that might have less dropped frames, I'd be
happy to extract clips from that one.

02-17-2018, 12:21 AM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

That definitely isn't right. I just paused it and there are mame rendering hallmarks. What parts
did you screen shot?

Here are the next 20 barrel stages. Some stages probably have the hallmarks you're looking
for. This one should be in the correct order they occurred.

Billy Mitchell 1050 Direct Feed (continued)

https://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI

https://i.imgur.com/m0zIr6P.gif https://i.imgur.com/Hz5Szck.gif
https://i.imgur.com/r0TV6TC.gif https://i.imgur.com/BcyUz5h.gif
https://i.imgur.com/uuhRcPO.gif https://i.imgur.com/QTCPK5t.gif
https://i.imgur.com/JXk9Um0.gif https://i.imgur.com/HOOCjea.gif
https://i.imgur.com/cLrj4lL.gif https://i.imgur.com/LeS6weI.gif
https://i.imgur.com/LvOiIGA.gif https://i.imgur.com/umNoPcd.gif
https://i.imgur.com/17gHh3E.gif https://i.imgur.com/AHHwiWX.gif
https://i.imgur.com/8hdJVr0.gif https://i.imgur.com/uVdRVAl.gif
https://i.imgur.com/9T9HntQ.gif https://i.imgur.com/xmqJSps.gif
https://i.imgur.com/zCRV8ye.gif https://i.imgur.com/eUzBmAL.gif

02-17-2018, 12:38 AM
erockbrox

Exhibit A - 000468
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 468/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Is there anything we can do to give Billy Mitchell a break with this. For example, if he admits
and confesses that his score is not valid for the Donkey Kong arcade track can he get a deal
where there is less punishment or something.

Todd Rogers got banned, but what if Todd came forward and was honest about his wrong
doing. Maybe Todd's scores would still be removed, but the final result would only be a ban
for a 1 year or something.

To be very honest here, in my opinion, I feel like everyone should get a second change... even
for Todd Rogers. Why, you might ask? Because it is more fun to see someone getting caught
cheating, have their scores wiped, but then actually see them try and do it for real trying to get
all of their scores back only for them to fall short.

For instance, I would find it absolutely hilarious if Todd played Dragster for the next 3 years
trying to get his fake score of 5.51. It would be funny watching him because we would all
know that is impossible. If someone is 100% banned then you can't have any fun with them
watching them struggle to be the "great legend" that they claim to be when they are really not.

When someone is caught cheating and then they try and submit new legit scores you can
always give them a hard time with extra rules and such. Remember the strict Donkey Kong
arcade rules that were once enforced.

So I have a direct message to Billy Mitchell himself.

Dear Billy, you are in a kind of a tight situation here and you know that there is some type of
foul play involved on your part. You could confess now and request to have your own score
invalidated which could possibly lead to you having less harsh consequences. If you wait until
Twin Galaxies makes a final decision then the consequences could be worse. Todd Rogers got
banned. Do you really want to get banned Billy Mitchell? Nobody wants to get banned...
especially the "player of the century".

The other option is to not say anything and located a Donkey Kong arcade cabinet and set a
new scores which is better than this current score which is being debated. If you can beat this
score that is being disputed then you can possibly redeem yourself. Everyone makes mistakes
as we are only human, but its about how we move forward and how you redeem your
credibility that matters.

So Billy these are your options:

1) Confess and hopefully receive a less punishment

2) Beat your current Donkey Kong record in a live stream and submit it ASAP

3) Do nothing and let Twin Galaxies decide what they will do

02-17-2018, 12:48 AM
Tessman

The specifics of the Apollo Legend video aside, he does make some strong points about this
site, it's record-keeping, and it's alleged integrity.Xelnia brought forth some extremely
damning evidence. TG and several other entities (including some trying to defend Billy), have
only validated this hard evidence. Beyond that, there is piles of circumstantial evidence to put
on top of the tangible evidence that Xelnia has put forth. - The lack of audio on the 1.047
video has no audio. - The audio in the 1.050 video is clearly cut and edited. - The 1.062 score
Exhibit A - 000469
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 469/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

was verified by Todd Rogers, whose integrity is worth less than the Zimbabwe Dollar in late
2008. - The circumstances under which the video was submitted and accepted were odd and
suspicious. - He refuses to talk to anyone that isn't already his fan club. - The blue object
smash scores are way, way higher than the expected value in his 1.047 video.If this were any
other score-keeping community, this would be over and done with at this point. I appreciate
the care that Jace is putting into this case, but even he reproduced the results Xelnia reported
verbatim. Billy has had time to respond, but has failed to do so, and not by ignorance, as he
seems to be more than capable of talking to his fanclub.The integrity of Twin Galaxies as a
score-keeping entity is at stake here. TG serves an important in keeping a collection of scores
and records that most other sites do not, and being able to rely on those records as legitimate
is paramount to the success and purpose of this site. Every day case goes by while TG drags
their feet because they refuse to punish The Good Ole' Boys until people start building TASes
and do ASM level analysis of the code comprises the ideals under which this site was original
founded.Billy has had his chance to defend himself and has said nothing. His supporters have
brought either evidence that further proves he is a cheat or have brought hollow statements to
this discussion. The evidence, both tangible and circumstantial overwhelmingly demonstrates
that Billy cheated. Billy deserves nothing better than the punishment for being a cheater: Pull
his records -- all of them -- from the site.

02-17-2018, 12:52 AM
Tessman

Well, my above post did not keep my formatting or line breaks, so I apologize for that literal
wall of text :(.

02-17-2018, 01:24 AM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

2) Beat your current Donkey Kong record in a live stream and submit it ASAP

My problem with this statement (and statements similar to this) is that getting a 1M score now
doesn't absolve him of previously cheating. My best analogy would be is if I stole something
from a store, got caught, but then showed that I had the money to buy it in the first place, that
doesn't absolve me of my original crime.

02-17-2018, 02:51 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

Agreed, I would be very surprised if he didn't get banned so i doubt he will have the chance.

This video shows a very good summary of the evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=234Y76_3YPE

It also shows analysis of the audio track on the one score which had audio and clearly
Exhibit shows
A - 000470
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 470/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

gaps in the audio track and proves it was spliced together.

At this stage this dispute is an easy accept.

02-17-2018, 05:54 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

1) Confess and hopefully receive a less punishment

2) Beat your current Donkey Kong record in a live stream and submit it ASAP

3) Do nothing and let Twin Galaxies decide what they will do

That isn't how this works at all. If you are proven to have cheated or fabricated evidence you
will more than likely receive a permanent ban and have your scores wiped. It doesn't matter if
you say sorry, you don't deserve a second chance. You went out of your way to fake scores.

02-17-2018, 08:14 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

5. tape having issue at the roll over point -- would you expet this if someone were trying to
hide evidence of mame?

To me, this, along with the entire observation that the 1.047M score has a lot of tape
anomalies, has always been a red herring. It doesn't take much effort or intuition, when
scrutinizing the video, to note that after the tape damage moments are done, everything that
was in motion on-screen beforehand is where it should be afterwards, including the cadence
of the bonus point countdown. In the specific case of the score rollover, the tape seen in King
of Kong has some modest damage at that instant, but there is quite frankly nothing further
amiss, visually.

Was the suspicion that these instances of tape damage were masking otherwise imperfect
video splices? MAME IMP file abuse is a seamless method of getting the result you want
without having to edit the video in post. I'm glad there has been no focus on this aspect of the
tapes, for it would have led nowhere. The board transitions and blue barrel smash analyses are
more than enough in any event.

Interestingly, Youtube's copy of the 1.047M score, for all that it is a typical 240p masterpiece,
lacks any VHS damage at the rollover moment, which indicates that said video is either the
original or a separate copy, and that the tape shown in King of Kong was either not the
original, or (however improbably) was damaged prior to being shown. I'll add that I'm keen
on knowing whether the King of Kong damage during the rollover exists in the recently-
reclaimed tape.

02-17-2018, 08:37 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote: Exhibit A - 000471

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 471/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Asterra

The time you linked to in that video, if you pause it just before the next board when the "how
how..." is on the screen and just frame by frame you actually see clear as day that it is mame
rendering donkey kong.

02-17-2018, 08:47 AM
Dwayne Richard
Video tapes

I sent Robert, Xelnia aNd Jace some emails showing how i was authorized to start the
investigation on the donkey kong tapes. Walter had the tapes sent back to him and he got
someone to dub them for the referee's.

These are the tapes i supposedly redid in mame. Most know at that time i was investigating
weibe at the time. We had no capacity to deal with a fake mame tape. Which was why at one
point i wanted to see about submitting a fake score to see if the referee's could pick it up, but
it wasn't worth the trouble at the time. Like Hank Chien I have just been waiting for people to
focus on the issue and take it seriously.

Again i did find weibe cheating on his 1006 with the 8 way joystick use to be able to force
barrels and not have to move off a ladder.
But because weibe could at least play to a million in public i just let it go because the
community didnt care. Bill is obviously a more serious issue.

Todd sent me the 1050 tape right after it was done. The one thing about that event i never saw
1 photo.

When i was fired and Robert resigned during the kok conspiracy i still kept the investigation
going. Sharing the info with the dk killscreen community as it grew. kok was the reason for
the bogus play with fame and money and kok was the reason the player community grew to
search out the truth.

There is irony here and it is tragic. Im busy working all weekend so just a short note. dwayne

02-17-2018, 08:50 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Don't misunderstand: I am not playing devil's advocate. My observation is not meaningfully

relevant to the dispute or the evidence of MAME. It is just interesting to me that the video on
Exhibit A - 000472
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 472/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Youtube reveals something about the video seen in King of Kong.

02-17-2018, 08:53 AM
BenMullen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

The specifics of the Apollo Legend video aside, he does make some strong points about this
site, it's record-keeping, and it's alleged integrity.

I would counter that that was the ONLY portion of that video that was complete hogwash. It
accurately describes the old TG where people were allowed to run roughshod over the rules
because they were in the "in crowd" but does little to describe its current state. The fact that
this dispute in particular, and this dispute system in general exist as they do is clear evidence
of a new, better and ethical score keeping organization that shares the name ONLY of what
had come before.

He fails to take this threads existence into account and TGs wish to be complete and
deliberative into account in his stupid claim that this should be removed already. He should
have ended by simply saying that this was already removed from one of the primary score
lists according to their process and the other is still undergoing theirs.

It is easy to forget here that DKF people, in their original bombshell post referenced that they
had been investigating this for "some time". Whats is so bad about the other (TG) also taking
"some time". It was just a stupid and unfair thing of apollo to say after making great points up
until that point.

02-17-2018, 09:49 AM
LMDAVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMullen

I
It is easy to forget here that DKF people, in their original bombshell post referenced that they
had been investigating this for "some time". Whats is so bad about the other (TG) also taking
"some time". It was just a stupid and unfair thing of apollo to say after making great points up
until that point.

Yeah that was the one thing about that Apollo video that stood out to me. Seems like they had
it out for TG. I think TG is handling this one very thorough and fair, and nothing wrong with
getting information from DKF to help.

02-17-2018, 10:05 AM
Snowflake

all the talk about mercy or plea bargains really isnt up to us, however since Jace does listen to
us I'll give some opinion combined with some history.

Everyone who was caught cheating under the old tg, or banned for any reason for that matter
,was given a clean slate. Because of this, it makes sense to me that cheating in the old days
shouldnt result in a ban now. Think about it, if billy's mame use came to light BEFORE jace
bought TG, then his scores would still be stripped, but he wouldn't have been banned. Just
because he was caught later he gets banned? that seems off. Unless of course
ExhibityouAconsider
- 000473
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 473/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

he's to this day trying to carry on the deception.

People can also look to the punch out cheater who was caught very early on, and he was given
a chance to come clean and apolgize to avoid a ban. there's a dfiference though, as billy has
already been caught, coming clean after being caught seems a lttle late. Especially with what
a mockery he's made of this all up to this point.

Look at the two interviews he did. Admittedly the second one wasnt nearly as large as a slap
in the face in the first one, but it was still more than just poorly done it was just wasting our
time treating us like idiots who could be distracted with tales of yore rather than adressing the
issues. I dont think Billy has shown one ounce of repentance, and his continued mockery of
all this makes me think no, he deserves the ban when the time comes.

Granted, thats just my opinion, but as it seems a few of us have been saying our opinion on
this i wanted to weight in. Billy's not some poor victim. Billy's not some kid who made a
mistake. Billy was an adult at the time, and to make matters worse, as a 50+ year old "man" to
this day has resorted to calling us "the lonely losers club", wasting our time, and continuing in
very childish actions.

02-17-2018, 11:02 AM
bjones

Ok, rather than a snarky reply how about 'splainin it if you have the knowledge. I know all the
arguments about frame rates, i know how fast a vhs can record and at what rate and also what
a phone can do and at what rate. I also have in the past used a phantom camera at 600 fps to
illustrate the point to colleagues that there is very much a difference in how fast and how
many frames vhs can expose vs a modern hd camera. My question wasn't one of experience or
knowledge but more one of has anyone taken the time to recreate the circumstances here to be
sure.

02-17-2018, 11:33 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjones

The issue of fields vs frames can be confusing, so I'd like to clear it up by mixing up the terms
a bit:

A frame is a full 480 or 576 lines of picture.

A field is the odd or even 240 or 288 lines of a frame.
A scan is a discrete instance in time represented on the screen.

A progressive 480p signal has 59.940 frames per second, and 59.940 scans per second. If you
were to hypothetically mess with the blanking signal and turn it from progressive into
interlaced without changing the scan rate, it would become 960i: 29.970 frames per second,
Exhibit A - 000474
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 474/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

59.940 scans per second, and twice the vertical lines per "frame".

An interlaced 480i signal has 29.970 frames per second, and 59.940 scans per second. If you
were to hypothetically mess with the blanking signal and turn it from interlaced into
progressive without changing the scan rate, it would become 240p: 59.940 frames per second,
59.940 scans per second, and half the vertical lines per "frame".

Note that in both cases, the signal is 59.940 scans per second, meaning that if you were to
display a counter on screen, it would display roughly 60 digits per second. The "speed" of the
images presented on the screen is the same in all cases: 59.940 scans, or "pictures" per
second.

Now what a VCR does, when you connect the video signal from an arcade machine to it, is it
records the roughly 60 progressive frames per second into roughly 60 interlaced fields per
second. No image data is lost beyond the image clarity reduction inherent to the magnetic
recording medium. To put it in terms equivalent to my examples above, it is messing with the
blanking signal to turn a 240p arcade signal into a 480i NTSC signal, both at 59.940 scans per
second. If the arcade game being recorded displays a timer that changes every frame, then
every change in that timer will be recorded in a separate field, and no information beyond
image clarity is lost.

Additionally, because VHS is a mechanical medium, no time base correction is applied to the
source signal. So if there are minute variations in the scan rate of the video source (like an
arcade game running at 60.000Hz instead of 59.940Hz), the tape will simply record slightly
slower or faster, as often happens with old tapes that have friction problems (you can hear this
as a whining pitch effect in the audio, a tell tale sign of an ageing tape). If you were to record
onto DVD instead, the DVD recorder will apply time base correction and duplicate or drop
frames as necessary to maintain a perfect cadence of 59.940Hz.

02-17-2018, 01:48 PM
ant3x7

For those interested, I've captured all 56 barrel stage transitions for Billy Mitchell's 1.050M.
I've decided to dump them to my Google Drive so that the original filenames are preserved
with timestamps. The source file is Xelnia's posted video on YouTube, "Billy Mitchell -
1,050,200 - Direct Feed (rotated)" (https://youtu.be/qfk0WxlSqpo)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...uk?usp=sharing

02-17-2018, 01:48 PM
Ninglendo

I just got a quick question... Will the tapes that TG recently acquired be uploaded to the site
so the community can view them? Thanks.

02-17-2018, 02:24 PM
Marcade

Credit goes to "Raven" at the Donkey Kong Forum - for catching this "Horrible splice"
attempt... see post #187
http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...cseen#msg33851

Now that TG has in possession of this specific game tape as well, please take note exactly at
the 747,400 mark to see if that is an exact VHS match!
Exhibit A - 000475
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 475/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

starting at 1:52:43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfk0...outu.be&t=6762

02-17-2018, 02:42 PM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Credit goes to "Raven" at the Donkey Kong Forum - for catching this "Horrible splice"
attempt... see post #187
//donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.msg33851;topicseen#msg33851

Now that TG has in possession of this specific game tape as well, please take note exactly at
the 747,400 mark to see if that is an exact VHS match!

starting at 1:52:43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfk0...outu.be&t=6762

I saw that over there and was going to mention it here. Like you say, we need to know if the
tape has the same issue but I suspect it's something clumsily done in the transfer or
somewhere else in the digital process. The brief moment we see of the rivets screen seems to
be exactly the same as what we see when it continues properly. The initial firefox appears at
the same time and place and exhibits the same behaviour.

02-17-2018, 02:44 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Credit goes to "Raven" at the Donkey Kong Forum - for catching this "Horrible splice"
attempt... see post #187
//donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.msg33851;topicseen#msg33851

Now that TG has in possession of this specific game tape as well, please take note exactly at
the 747,400 mark to see if that is an exact VHS match!

starting at 1:52:43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfk0...outu.be&t=6762

That would be pretty obvious of a splice for sure. The only argument that was already made
on DKF was that the video was to long/file to large and that is where the video edit was
performed to get it onto youtube. Not saying that's what happened, but it was a good
explanation of a possibility.

02-17-2018, 02:44 PM
GiGinge420

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMullen

I would counter that that was the ONLY portion of that video that was complete hogwash. It
accurately describes the old TG where people were allowed to run roughshod over the rules
because they were in the "in crowd" but does little to describe its currentExhibit
state. The
A -fact that
000476
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 476/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

this dispute in particular, and this dispute system in general exist as they do is clear evidence
of a new, better and ethical score keeping organization that shares the name ONLY of what
had come before.

I totally agree with this, it's a shame really because he has a much larger fan base than he
speaks to than those who would sit and actually read the evidence in this thread. I'm new to
this community (Hi guys!) and high score chasing in general, but I have been speedrunning
for a while now which is the same principle i.e. competing against a nominal score
(points/time). I came here, sat down and literally read the entire thread because I wanted to
know what's going on, because this interests me. I knew who Billy was, but I'm too young to
remember his glory days (early 30s) clearly, so I had no bias either way.

But nevertheless, I sat and spent WAAAY too many hours reading through all of this, and I
know what my opinion is. That's why when I see the comments on the videos of Apollo's
where majority are like 'Twin Galaxies are scum they need to be shut down' etc I get really
worked up. I have no iron in this fire, but I believe having read this thread that you guys truly
are determined to clean this mess up, and I praise you for that. I just wish Apollo wouldn't use
you guys' work to get credit (and ad revenue) whilst ****ting all over you, or at least not
making it clear to his fans who likely aren't going to sit and read all the argument and
counterargument that TG are taking this matter VERY seriously. As much as I like the video
and agree with his other points, that left a bad taste in my mouth tbh

02-17-2018, 03:08 PM
bounty bob

JDllama posted a link to an earlier upload of Billy's 1.050 performance and it doesn't have
that obvious cut and paste at the same point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZK....be&t=1h53m15s

02-17-2018, 03:08 PM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Sure...Anything is possible...

Now I see this YT video at the 1:53 mark... (that splice I mentioned is not there now)
Exhibit A - 000477
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 477/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZK....be&t=1h53m15s

This is why the tapes are so important to justify this.

02-17-2018, 03:09 PM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

As posted in the follow up posts on did,I It doesn't occur on the 2016 video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZK....be&t=1h53m15s so presumably that anomaly
was from the duplication process and not a splice attempt.

02-17-2018, 03:11 PM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

JDllama posted a link to an earlier upload of Billy's 1.050 performance and it doesn't have
that obvious cut and paste at the same point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZK....be&t=1h53m15s

Heh. You beat me to posting this by 5.51 seconds!!! ;)

Yes, I spoke with JD as well. But at his request, he wanted to keep his name anonymous...

Too late... ;)

02-17-2018, 03:13 PM
rotunda

https://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI?t=1h53m10s

02-17-2018, 03:17 PM
Dave Hawksett

Thanks to everyone for your patience while we continue to investigate this dispute
thoroughly. We will not be rushed and our ongoing technical analysis will take as much time
as necessary. We appreciate the high level of community expertise demonstrated here.

02-17-2018, 03:19 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

starting at 1:52:43https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfk0...outu.be&t=6762
Exhibit A - 000478
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 478/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

What this moment shows is that the above video cannot possibly be the master recording (of
MAME). It is a duplicate. MAME itself obviously wouldn't have any difficulty giving a
seamless playback for the entire duration. Since there is no difference between the footage
duplicated before and after the seam, an easy dismissal would be that the person making the
duplication mistakenly stopped recording at this moment and decided to approximate a fix
rather than start completely over.This obviously has no bearing on the MAME-specific
transitions and blue smash luck.

02-17-2018, 04:06 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...uk?usp=sharing

That's great, that helps with comparisons!

For others that haven't gone back through the entire thread (I saw a question around page 121
asking if any attempts had been made at capturing to VHS from arcade) - I created many
iterations of direct feed capture from arcade and from composite out on a MAME PC:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEA..._as=subscriber

Chris Gleed here, the guy who's direct feed was referenced as a source in the original
comparison by Jeremy Young.

I also uploaded direct feed capture from a 60-in-1 yesterday. I expect that piece has little
bearing on the conversation, but interesting to note that the icade 60-in-1 emulation generates
all barrel stages in 3 frames and the barrels and oil can always generate 1 frame ahead of
Kong. :S

02-17-2018, 04:32 PM
Robert.F
just thinking

Just thinking ,i was just watching

Billy Mitchell - 1,050,200 -

Direct Feed (rotated) game
And Billy kill himself at the end 1.050 , so if he was using save states he could change the
ending score ,
so lets say he ha a save state up to 950.000 he could start the save state and recorded more
then one ending
im trying to say this with out getting to complicated, I`m guessing you cant save inp with save
Exhibit A - 000479
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 479/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

states , so splicing would have to be needed if he was starting with the same save state , and
he could of had more then a few at different points in the same game,,,,, has any one cross
match the games tapes that are available to see a match on two games that ended differently ?

As for the jumpy tape, i think most of this is just could be ,, old tape`s, making copy`s, and
using poor or damage vcr that damage the tape, this would be an added bonus if someone was
trying to hide editing on the fly....

02-17-2018, 04:44 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Just thinking ,i was just watching

Billy Mitchell - 1,050,200 -

Direct Feed (rotated) game
And Billy kill himself at the end 1.050 , so if he was using save states he could change the
ending score ,
so lets say he ha a save state up to 950.000 he could start the save state and recorded more
then one ending
im trying to say this with out getting to complicated, I`m guessing you cant save inp with save
states , so splicing would have to be needed if he was starting with the same save state , and
he could of had more then a few at different points in the same game,,,,, has any one cross
match the games tapes that are available to see a match on two games that ended differently ?

i just wanted to add that big white line that pop`s up on the side whenever the screen go`s
black and loads a new board looks like a auto tracking issue ,,, i remember some old vcr that
has manual tracking controls , you set it just to the point of where it would be unstable with
them black out screens ,, just saying , im not saying there insist a possibility billy did edit his
tapes

02-17-2018, 05:45 PM
erockbrox

Billy you need to come clean and confess with your Donkey Kong sins. Repent Billy, repent
and maybe you will be forgiven.

Billy admit your sins before it is too late...

02-17-2018, 06:25 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000480
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 480/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by erockbrox

Billy you need to come clean and confess with your Donkey Kong sins. Repent Billy, repent
and maybe you will be forgiven.

Billy admit your sins before it is too late...

He doesn't need to come clean. Apologizing doesn't change the evidence.

02-17-2018, 06:31 PM
maxim_recoil

Someone in a Reddit thread claims to have asked Walter Day about this on Facebook, and
posted a screenshot of Walter's alleged reply:

http://image.ibb.co/dcROQn/eUAkfHd.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comm...still/due4jun/

And:

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comm...75x/?context=2

02-17-2018, 06:33 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Someone in a Reddit thread claims to have asked Walter Day about this on Facebook, and
posted a screenshot of Walter's alleged reply:

[img]//image.ibb.co/dcROQn/eUAkfHd.jpg[/img]

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comm...still/due4jun/

And:

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comm...75x/?context=2

a few days? When did Walter say this?

02-17-2018, 06:41 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Someone in a Reddit thread claims to have asked Walter Day about this on Facebook, and
posted a screenshot of Walter's alleged reply:

[img]//image.ibb.co/dcROQn/eUAkfHd.jpg[/img]

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comm...still/due4jun/

And: Exhibit A - 000481

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 481/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comm...75x/?context=2

A "team of engineers"? What were they feverishly working on?

02-17-2018, 06:42 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

a few days? When did Walter say this?

The timestamp on drKRB's Reddit post says it was posted "11 hours ago".

02-17-2018, 06:42 PM
RTM

I have a general question for those who would know best...

It was either Nov/16 or Nov/15 during one of my annual November trips to ACAM that I first
heard of someone that was caught for submitting to the MARP site scores on "Galaga" and
"Pandora's Palace" which effectively were performances recorded by save-state even though
WolfMAME is not supposed to be able to do that. Martin Bedard was one of the two people I
discussed this with and it seemed that this was the first instance that he saw of it as well.

That stated, if the knowledge to splice together MAME performances via save state likely did
not exist until recent years, then Bill's earlier performances now under review pre-date the
above by anywhere from 5-10 years.

So is it possible that the knowledge to do so (recording a save-state performance) existed that

many years ago ? Just curious in case this is believed by some how the scores were
accomplished.

02-17-2018, 06:47 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

A "team of engineers"? What were they feverishly working on?

I have absolutely no idea what they could be doing. A "team of engineers" doesn't really make
sense either in reference to this issue.

02-17-2018, 06:59 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I have a general question for those who would know best...

It was either Nov/16 or Nov/15 during one of my annual November trips to ACAM that I first
heard of someone that was caught for submitting to the MARP site scores on "Galaga" and
Exhibit A - 000482
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 482/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

"Pandora's Palace" which effectively were performances recorded by save-state even though
WolfMAME is not supposed to be able to do that. Martin Bedard was one of the two people I
discussed this with and it seemed that this was the first instance that he saw of it as well.

So is it possible that the knowledge to do so (recording a save-state performance) existed that

many years ago ? Just curious in case this is believed by some how the scores were
accomplished.

MAME can but WOLFMame can not from what I remember.

02-17-2018, 06:59 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

A "team of engineers"? What were they feverishly working on?

I like Walter, but this "Stay Tuned!" crap gets old.

02-17-2018, 07:02 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I have absolutely no idea what they could be doing. A "team of engineers" doesn't really make
sense either in reference to this issue.

If they manage to show how Billy was able to play DK on MAME with a DK Junior PCB
"moments after breaking donkey kong record" in front of about a hundred people taking
videos and photos - not to mention the spot interviews Billy provided to different media
outlets - all of whom failed to post anything on social media save for a single tweet one Fort
Lauderdale user who broke news of Billy's DK and DK Junior records hours before Billy
theoretically clinched his DK Junior record, securing world peace should be a cakewalk for
them.

02-17-2018, 07:05 PM
Robert.F

A team of engineer`s , is that right? are they wearing lab coats? because only the good
engineer`s wearing lab coats, If there not wearing lab coats then i refuse take you seriously
Walter ...... :)

02-17-2018, 07:07 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Exhibit A - 000483
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 483/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I have a general question for those who would know best...

So is it possible that the knowledge to do so (recording a save-state performance) existed that

many years ago ? Just curious in case this is believed by some how the scores were
accomplished.

Someone trying to pass off a MAME performance as an arcade performance wouldn't use
WolfMAME, they'd just use standard MAME. WolfMAME is designed for people wanting to
make legitimate MAME score submissions (and video game record sites typically require
MAME submissions to have been done in WolfMAME), so manipulating it in order to cheat
is a lot more difficult than with standard MAME.

For the record, using MAME to create a fake "arcade" category performance wouldn't even
require the type of MAME manipulation you are referring to; it could be done with simple
video editing after the fact. All you would need to do is real-time capture each save-stated
gameplay segment to a digital video file (using e.g., screen capture software), then edit the
multiple digital video files together seamlessly, then use a "TV out" video card to record the
stitched-together video file to a VHS tape. It could also be done strictly in the analog domain
if you had a professional or "prosumer" VHS deck with a flying erase head, though doing it
digitally and then recording your finished product to a VHS tape would be a lot easier and
cleaner.

02-17-2018, 07:13 PM
Robert.F

i wonder if there is a credible agency that could look at the tapes for sighs of editing and make
a report :)

02-17-2018, 07:28 PM
thegamer1185

So this is kind of funny and totally speculation, but Billy does a lot of these things.
http://www.businessinsider.com/11-si...s-lying-2014-4

Especially, "The fact of the matter".

This means nothing to this dispute, but I figured everybody would get a good laugh.

02-17-2018, 07:44 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Exhibit A - 000484
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 484/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I have absolutely no idea what they could be doing. A "team of engineers" doesn't really make
sense either in reference to this issue.

Given the ironclad nature of the evidence, about the only thing they could have been working
on is fake evidence.

Give me Billy Mitchell's MAME IMP files, a VCR with some blank tapes, After Effects, and
brief access to a Donkey Kong arcade cabinet, and I could render you some "direct feed"
tapes that look just like the videos we already have, only with arcade-accurate board
transitions. Splicing would occur in the pixel-perfect digital realm of MAME's output,
ensuring that nothing whatsoever could be detected with garden-variety scrutiny in an audio
editor or what have you.

I harbor a particular concern here that this so-called vindication of Billy (assuming this isn't
some wild goose chase) may involve the convenient "rediscovery" of the missing and
dubiously-authenticated 1.062M tape. As I have intimated, it is trivially easy to generate
foolproof, thoroughly fraudulent evidence in such a case. Particularly now in 2018, when the
strategies involved in getting a score beyond 1M are well-established and it would be a simple
matter to generate an IMP recording that doesn't even exhibit the famously-outed blue barrel
smash luck.

That is why it's important to maintain focus on the evidence that existed prior to the advent of
this dispute gaining traction. Evidence which is, of course, patently incontrovertible.

02-17-2018, 07:53 PM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Well Billy did say in his first interview that TG has the tapes, correct?

"I contend that if he gets the original tape, or if he gets the room shot, he will see what I am
saying is true. That original footage was given to twin galaxies. They should have it, they
must have it. The original tape shows the truth." - Billy Mitchell

02-17-2018, 07:59 PM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I have a general question for those who would know best...

Exhibit A - 000485
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 485/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

So is it possible that the knowledge to do so (recording a save-state performance) existed that

many years ago ? Just curious in case this is believed by some how the scores were
accomplished.

I was intimately involved in catching the cheating by PAC that you are referring to above.
This was caught by MARP in November 2015, and his Galaga score was later also removed
at TG.

It was certainly possible to cheat via "splicing" MAME performances together into a single
performance back when Billy submitted his Donkey Kong scores.

WolfMAME makes this more difficult by introducing additional checks and disabling certain
MAME features, which is why WolfMAME is required by TG and MARP. If Billy was using
"vanilla" MAME instead of WolfMAME, there was a very easy way of creating MAME
recordings "one screen at a time" and combining them together into a single INP (input) file
for the whole game. This INP file could then be played back in MAME and recorded without
any need to do any video splicing or editing.

As such, I don't think any video splicing or editing was done, as it wasn't needed and would
be much more easily noticed. However, we can see how new screens are drawn in Billy's
videos. They are drawn the way MAME draws, not the way Arcade draws.

-George

02-17-2018, 08:11 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Well Billy did say in his first interview that TG has the tapes, correct?

My impression of that statement was that it was to establish a bare minimum outcome where
TG fails to turn up the tape (or perhaps any tapes, since it had by this point been over a week
with no tapes forthcoming), ensuring that, at least for some, the matter would remain
unsettled. The only thing Billy saying TG has the tape means is that one person, the subject of
the dispute, says TG has it; it is not a proof. Nobody seems to recollect having acquired it. It
wasn't in the stack of tapes shown recently.

02-17-2018, 08:57 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

I like Walter, but this "Stay Tuned!" crap gets old.

RTM REPLY - it's actually QUITE old as you will see below...
Exhibit A - 000486
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 486/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ngs-Billy-Said

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...Was-at-Funspot

02-17-2018, 09:03 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

The only thing Billy saying TG has the tape means is that one person, the subject of the
dispute, says TG has it; it is not a proof. Nobody seems to recollect having acquired it. It
wasn't in the stack of tapes shown recently.

RTM REPLY - Dwayne already responded to this point. The fact is that Billy claiming TG
has the originals is a "Hail Mary" attempt.

Think about it...who exactly at TG would even have these tapes at this point ? There are no
more referees, and other than Walter only referees typically had tapes. I can't speak about
Bouvier, and the Jordan Adler administrations as far as those guys are concerned, but once all
the referees were either fired, resigned or phased out, there was no "central repository" for
these tapes.

Besides that obvious point, an "original" tape would bear the same audio findings as far as
those "dropouts" that someone who analyzed the segments discovered, I would imagine. I'm
no expert on dubbings, but while the video tracks can degrade and get "washed" with every
subsequent taping, I have to imagine that even if a first gen copy of the tape was revealed that
the sound track could not have degraded so much as to render that "dropout" discovery as
being unprovable.

02-17-2018, 11:37 PM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Heh. You beat me to posting this by 5.51 seconds!!! ;)
Yes, I spoke with JD as well. But at his request, he wanted to keep his name anonymous...

Too late... ;)

Oops, sorry JD. I'm sure most here are keeping an eye on the DK forum though, it's out there
for everyone to see,

02-18-2018, 02:39 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Exhibit A - 000487
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 487/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Someone in a Reddit thread claims to have asked Walter Day about this on Facebook, and
posted a screenshot of Walter's alleged reply:

[img]//image.ibb.co/dcROQn/eUAkfHd.jpg[/img]

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comm...still/due4jun/

And:

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comm...75x/?context=2

This is either an old reply of some sort or a fake as I have Walter on FB and speak to him
regularly and that isn't even his current profile picture...

02-18-2018, 04:33 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

This is either an old reply of some sort or a fake as I have Walter on FB and speak to him
regularly and that isn't even his current profile picture...

It's the same profile picture that I'm seeing on his Facebook page right now:

[img]//image.ibb.co/dcROQn/eUAkfHd.jpg[/img]

https://i.imgur.com/oKLY7RI.png

https://www.facebook.com/walter.day.589

02-18-2018, 05:30 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Well Billy did say in his first interview that TG has the tapes, correct?

Yes they are stored right beside Todd Rogers 5.51 tapes.

But seriously... It's easy for Billy to say that. Very easy...when he knows that based on TG's
history over the years...the odds that TG has the *original* tapes is next to 0%. And I state
that based on 2 reasons. 1) I highly doubt Billy ever submitted an original tape. I know I
would have kept any original recording I had, made a copy and submitted the copy. If for no
other reason, worry about it being lost or damaged in shipping. 2) Historically, *most* of the
pre-TGSAP record submissions, TG does not have.

Look at the database. The sheer volume. You'd need a large warehouse for all the VHS tapes
that were submitted the past 20+ years. If TG still possesses any of them, I bet it's an
Exhibit A - 000488
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 488/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

extremely low percentage. The score being disputed in this thread was *set* in 2010, nearly 8
years ago now. TG has been sold at least twice in that time frame... So it's really easy at this
point in time to sit and state "TG must have them".

That eliminates his need to produce the original tapes, and he can play the blame game and
moan that TG *had* them... if/when his scores are pulled and he gets banned... Easier to play
the victim...if that's how this dispute concludes.

02-18-2018, 08:08 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

Yes they are stored right beside Todd Rogers 5.51 tapes.

Look at the database. The sheer volume. You'd need a large warehouse for all the VHS tapes
that were submitted the past 20+ years. If TG still possesses any of them, I bet it's an
extremely low percentage. The score being disputed in this thread was *set* in 2010, nearly 8
years ago now. TG has been sold at least twice in that time frame... So it's really easy at this
point in time to sit and state "TG must have them".

If TG has any tapes sitting around, they should digitally make copies and attach them to the
appropriate scores. Yes it would take time, but that would the smarted and best thing to do.
Then throw the tapes away and everything has digital print.

02-18-2018, 08:40 AM
IAmNerdJock

I was being tongue and cheek. If this "team of engineers" and Billy come up with the original,
then his public statements are false. He should then be held to higher level of scrutiny.

02-18-2018, 09:01 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I was advocating for that over a decade ago. Too much time, too expensive... storage space on
servers etc... Exhibit A - 000489
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 489/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I suggested they go that route and make it a subscription site. $3.95/month or $39.95/year and
have every record viewable to subscribers. Walter argued, "what if it took you a really long
time...hundreds or even thousands of hours to learn something...would you want others to
view it?" I said yes. When I set a record, I want to know I am the best...not just that I learned
a trick, or manipulated a glitch and that was the only way I was on top.

In hind sight now... It's crystal clear why he felt that way. It would be too damn easy to catch
cheaters.

02-18-2018, 09:13 AM
Mitch Mitchell

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

I was advocating for that over a decade ago. Too much time, too expensive... storage space on
servers etc...

In hind sight now... It's crystal clear why he felt that way. It would be too damn easy to catch
cheaters.

All the recent records ARE viewable though, just the old scores are not; I doubt any evidence
exists for most records made in the past that doesnt have already linked footage.

02-18-2018, 09:18 AM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

The score being disputed in this thread was *set* in 2010, nearly 8 years ago now. TG has
been sold at least twice in that time frame... So it's really easy at this point in time to sit and
state "TG must have them".

None of his media outlets will ask the question, "Billy,who did you give the 2010 tapes to at
Twin Galaxies? Which person at Twin Galaxies accepted your tapes?" Maybe then someone
could start digging for them. But it is likely that he took the tapes home with him or Todd still
has them. Cause out of the refs at IVGHOF that were there, no one have spoke about about
having a tape. And you know they would by now if they had one.

02-18-2018, 09:49 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

If TG still possesses any of them, I bet it's an extremely low percentage.
Exhibit A - 000490
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 490/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM REPLY - not that low...I turned over to Dave Hawskett the last known location of
around 1300-1500 VHS tapes, the majority of which were in New Hampshire then Maine at
the tail-end of 2007.

02-18-2018, 10:09 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

RTM REPLY - thanks for the explanation. Back in the day there were only three (3) specific
versions of MAME that TG used, and I would imagine that if MAME was used to record the
DK performance then likely it would have been one of these three...

MAME 32 build 58
MAME 32 build 62
MAME 35TG3 (specifically designed for TG, so I was told)

Unsure if knowing the specific version of MAME helps in isolating/proving that the recording
in question is MAME based, just recapping what was the norm for TG back in the day during
the era that the recording would have taken place.

02-18-2018, 10:24 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

MAME 32 build 58
MAME 32 build 62
Exhibit A - 000491
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 491/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

MAME 35TG3 (specifically designed for TG, so I was told)

You are thinking about it the wrong way. They were trying to pass off MAME as arcade
gameplay. They wouldn't use one of the MAMES TG used they would use the one where it
would be easiest to pass off the game as arcade play.

02-18-2018, 11:35 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

Not a chance, and I'll tell you why: These are people that didn't just simply cheat a video
game record. They were the face of TG, celebrated, and paraded around as the best of the
best. l always gave Billy the benefit of the doubt and respected his accomplishments. Now
just like with Lance Armstrong, I feel betrayed for trusting him and rooting for him. What's
worse, just like with Lance, the stories I'm hearing now about how much of a bully he was
behind the scenes in crafting his scams on the public just make me sick to my stomach. So no,
I wouldn't give him the time of day when it's all said and done. Strip, ban, and done.

Todd Rogers, as much as I hated the ordeal his fans put me though for DARING to question
his integrity (which was detailed in Apollo's previous video), I have to admit I feel sorry for
the man. He got caught up in his own hype and just simply took it too far, making up
ridiculous scores to try and cement a "god-level" status that nobody else would ever touch.
However, though I can understand his situation and even have some empathy for him, the
strip and banning was the proper punishment.

02-18-2018, 11:52 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Todd Rogers, as much as I hated the ordeal his fans put me though for DARING to question
Exhibit A - 000492
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 492/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

his integrity (which was detailed in Apollo's previous video), I have to admit I feel sorry for
the man. He got caught up in his own hype and just simply took it too far, making up
ridiculous scores to try and cement a "god-level" status that nobody else would ever touch.
However, though I can understand his situation and even have some empathy for him, the
strip and banning was the proper punishment.

I agree - if someone wants to come clean with lapses in judgement, then of course the
community would listen, but that is really a separate issue from the infraction and the
punishment/corrective measures that have to be implemented in such a scenario. But it's all
really academic in this case.

02-18-2018, 02:40 PM
erockbrox

I think that because Billy Mitchell made so many great contributions to gaming and that he
was such a great ambassador for Twin Galaxies and video games in general that we should let
him off easy.

02-18-2018, 02:47 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I think that because Billy Mitchell made so many great contributions to gaming and that he
was such a great ambassador for Twin Galaxies and video games in general that we should let
him off easy.

That mentality drives people away from the community.

02-18-2018, 03:13 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I think that because Billy Mitchell made so many great contributions to gaming and that he
was such a great ambassador for Twin Galaxies and video games in general that we should let
him off easy.

while I assume that’s sarcasm there’s enough billy devotees out there who would say that and
mean it

02-18-2018, 03:24 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I think that because Billy Mitchell made so many great contributions to gaming and that he
was such a great ambassador for Twin Galaxies and video games in general that we should let
him off easy.

He has gained plenty back from his "contributions".

Exhibit A - 000493
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 493/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-18-2018, 03:29 PM
DJGex

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I think that because Billy Mitchell made so many great contributions to gaming and that he
was such a great ambassador for Twin Galaxies and video games in general that we should let
him off easy.

If credibility is to be established, or maintained, the rules (and punishments, if any) must

apply to all who compete regardless of contribution.

Otherwise you have no credibility.

02-18-2018, 03:48 PM
Tessman

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I think that because Billy Mitchell made so many great contributions to gaming and that he
was such a great ambassador for Twin Galaxies and video games in general that we should let
him off easy.

This is the path to complete disrespect and irrelevance of Twin Galaxies by literally everyone
else.

02-18-2018, 03:49 PM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - not that low...I turned over to Dave Hawskett the last known location of
around 1300-1500 VHS tapes, the majority of which were in New Hampshire then Maine at
the tail-end of 2007.

That's a pretty low percentage I am quessing. How many records/tracks exist in the database?

02-18-2018, 04:36 PM
d3scride

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I think that because Billy Mitchell made so many great contributions to gaming and that he
was such a great ambassador for Twin Galaxies and video games in general that we should let
him off easy.

Sarcasm? These things shouldn't matter at all in this case.

02-18-2018, 04:41 PM
RTM
Exhibit A - 000494
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 494/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I think that because Billy Mitchell made so many great contributions to gaming and that he
was such a great ambassador for Twin Galaxies and video games in general that we should let
him off easy.

RTM REPLY - what happens all-too-often in politics is that an entrenched politician for
years had been betraying the public trust, either influence peddling, engaging in bribery or
other illegal quid-pro-quo activities, and when they finally get caught with their hand in the
proverbial cookie jar their lawyer asks that the judge/jury take into their account their "years
of dedication", sometimes their prior military service, arguing that years or even decades of
acting for the community should effectively override "a few mistakes".

That crock of BS defense has got to stop. It stinks to the high heavens when a politician uses
it, and it would stink to the high heavens if it was to be applied to a situation of this nature.

02-18-2018, 04:53 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

That's a pretty low percentage I am quessing. How many records/tracks exist in the database?

RTM REPLY - at the time of my departure, Tim, my own tape cache consisted of somewhere
in the range of 1300 or more VHS cassettes each ranging from a lowly 10 minutes to as much
as 6-8 hours depending on if 6-hour speed was used on a T-120 or T-160/165 tape (there were
even a few T-180's and T-200's sent to me for review, but not many)

As for quantity of records, it's difficult to say for sure because I kept everything, including
when a gamer submitted a higher record...their original VHS tape if sent to me was never
discarded. To be honest I never had the time to prune the accumulation like that anyway.

If I had to hazard a guess, excluding scores from ACAM events, that tape collection easily
consisted of 4,000-6,000 registered records in total, and that excludes the lesser-records
recorded enroute to the best one for that variation on a particular taping.

Add to these the entire Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1 & 2 competition tapes that Walter sent to me
which I forwarded to Todd to review and store for TG...that was another approx 100 tapes
right there.

There are many, many more...just a matter of Dave tracking them all down. I can only speak
for referees under my tenure.

Some I lost touch with and they never turned in their cache to TG such as Matthew
Leto...those will be hard for TG to re-acquire. Some loose ones here and there I identified as
best as I could, such as a few given to Mark Longridge ("Tempest" and "Carnival" WR's) as
much as I could remember as it has been awhile.

Exhibit A - 000495
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 495/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I cannot speak as to referees who left after I resigned as well...such as whatever Kelly Flewin
had who worked with me but continued with TG afterwards...I have no idea what he did with
his cache, for example, and that includes his digital cache.

There are I am guessing a couple of thousand tapes out there, likely comprising a good 10,000
or more records. "Just" a matter of TG reclaiming them, and that is going to be a long, drawn-
out and likely expensive process, easier said than done.

02-18-2018, 05:32 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

This is the path to complete disrespect and irrelevance of Twin Galaxies by literally everyone
else.

WARNING! WARNING! Billy enthusiast! WARNING! WARNING! Mentality of someone

stuck in their ways. Us god damned cheater haters picking on poor Billy based on the
evidence laid before us. Amazing how an entire community just up and decided to go on these
crusades of former TG refs with evidence backing them up. Billy and his supporters have had
more than enough time to dispute the evidence and nothing so far. Any time frame on that
evidence or should we expect another "We are putting together our evidence now, please give
us (more) time". Or a more appropriate response would be "We have a team of engineers
building our massive "bomb" of evidence, stay tuned Lonely Losers Club."

It's all good, but you literally saying finding and calling out cheaters is a path to disrespect
and irrelevance just shows how ignorant you are. I'm not saying you are ignorant, you are by
saying such a statement. I've been looking forward to this evidence for over 2 weeks now. Yet
here I sit with dry balls.

02-18-2018, 06:43 PM
Tessman

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

WARNING! WARNING! Billy enthusiast! WARNING! WARNING! Mentality of someone
stuck in their ways. Us god damned cheater haters picking on poor Billy based on the
evidence laid before us. Amazing how an entire community just up and decided to go on these
crusades of former TG refs with evidence backing them up. Billy and his supporters have had
more than enough time to dispute the evidence and nothing so far. Any time frame on that
evidence or should we expect another "We are putting together our evidence now, please give
us (more) time". Or a more appropriate response would be "We have a team of engineers
building our massive "bomb" of evidence, stay tuned Lonely Losers Club."

Whoa dude, settle down. Read what I quoted and then read the response. Combining those
two: "Giving Billy a break because of he's alledgedly so important is the path to disrespect

Exhibit A - 000496
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 496/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

and irrelevance of Twin Galaxies to everyone else." I'm saying that Billy should get treated
like everyone else. That is to say, strike his records from the books a'la Todd Rogers.

02-18-2018, 06:48 PM
starcrytas

Is there an estimated date for when this dispute will end?

02-18-2018, 07:08 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

Whoa dude, settle down. Read what I quoted and then read the response. Combining those
two: "Giving Billy a break because of he's alledgedly so important is the path to disrespect
and irrelevance of Twin Galaxies to everyone else." I'm saying that Billy should get treated
like everyone else. That is to say, strike his records from the books a'la Todd Rogers.

My apologizes. I didn't read it that way for some reason. I am sorry.

02-18-2018, 07:44 PM
Robert.F

https://www.geekwire.com/2012/wiebe-...ng-kong-felix/

To Mitchell, it was a measly excuse.

too much,,, again billy talking about being prepare lol

02-18-2018, 07:45 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

I was advocating for that over a decade ago. Too much time, too expensive... storage space on
servers etc...

In hind sight now... It's crystal clear why he felt that way. It would be too damn easy to catch
cheaters.

In my experience, retro gamers are some of the cheapest people on the planet. Trying to get
people to pay $40 a year to watch videos? They would scream and cry and try to explain that
even though they hustle storage lockers or buy thrift store items that they simply cannot part
with that kind of cash. Others would cry foul, saying that $4 a month would eat into their
"don't look like the undead" makeup kits.

What ever happened to the massive cache of VHS tapes that were in Dental Texass? I heard
they melted or got eaten by cockroaches or something.
Exhibit A - 000497
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 497/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Such a shame. I wonder if Billy's tapes were there.

02-18-2018, 08:41 PM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

What ever happened to the massive cache of VHS tapes that were in Dental Texass? I heard
they melted or got eaten by cockroaches or something.

Such a shame. I wonder if Billy's tapes were there.

I sit and read thru here, and see people question why conversations go on in other places. And
not here as you think they should?

Because of the smart ass posts like you just made.

You just cant help yourself apparently.

02-18-2018, 09:01 PM
RTM
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I've been looking forward to this evidence for over 2 weeks now. Yet here I sit with dry balls.

RTM REPLY - I have to imagine that with this being (US) President's Day weekend, and the
fact that Bill is always wearing an American flag tie, that outside of waiting until July 4th that
this week would likely be the most appropriate to make a decision timing-wise.

I'm sure that the judge will take your dryness into consideration.

Attachment 50753

02-18-2018, 09:09 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

There are many, many more...just a matter of Dave tracking them all down. I can only speak
for referees under my tenure.
Exhibit A - 000498
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 498/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I stored a couple crates of TG tapes for several years after I quit. Eventually when I realized I
live in the same town as Patrick Scott Patterson, I turned all the tapes over to him. That was
when he was still a TG ref, so I have no idea what he did with the tapes when he quit.

02-18-2018, 10:14 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

RTM REPLY - Hi Wolff. I was unaware that Patterson had been the recipient of so many to
take charge of on TG's behalf. I let Dave Hawskett know so that he can pursue these with
Scott.

02-18-2018, 10:25 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I'm sure that the judge will take your dryness into consideration.

Attachment 50753

The irony is that my name is in fact, Kyle. And I would be the one sucking balls in this
scenario I guess, haha. Whoever it is, just wash up before hand, thanks.

02-19-2018, 03:02 AM
rotunda

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000499
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 499/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I think that because Billy Mitchell made so many great contributions to gaming and that he
was such a great ambassador for Twin Galaxies and video games in general that we should let
him off easy.

I strongly disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Have to agree, also, having to pay AND verify the scores... that would be a bit harsh... We are
already the force which keeps TG ticking over.

02-19-2018, 04:25 AM
bh_

We're well over a thousand posts and this thread is hard enough to follow. Unless you have
evidence or analysis to bring to the table please find another thread for kibitzing.

02-19-2018, 05:12 AM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by bh_

We're well over a thousand posts and this thread is hard enough to follow. Unless you have
evidence or analysis to bring to the table please find another thread for kibitzing.

Who died and made you secret admin?

02-19-2018, 05:15 AM
bounty bob

For anyone else who didn't know.

kibitz
ËˆkÉªbÉªts/
verbNORTH AMERICAN[COLOR=#878787 !important]informal[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#878787 !important]gerund or present participle: kibitzing[/COLOR]

1.
look on and offer unwelcome advice, especially at a card game.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"Brigham stood behind them, kibitzing"[/COLOR]

Exhibit A - 000500
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 500/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

2.
speak informally; chat.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"she kibitzed with friends"[/COLOR]

02-19-2018, 05:17 AM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

I sit and read thru here, and see people question why conversations go on in other places. And
not here as you think they should?
Because of the smart ass posts like you just made.
You just cant help yourself apparently.

For somebody who "walked away and will never look back" you sure do seem to like coming
back. I think it's great actually. It shows you actually care about Twin Galaxies and the people
who make up the community.

Now that the United States Video Game Club For Trademark Owners (USNVGT) has two
prominent alumni members accused of cheating, are you going to make any official statement
such as "We stand with Billy" ?

It is a shame that such a prestigious and influential organization doesn't seem to care about
monumental controversies that are tearing through the community.

I suppose if the USNVGT was ever even slightly relevant they would has spoken up by now.
But we all know the story behind that one. "Hey Tim! Let's trademark this here name and
claim ownership to their proud history!"

02-19-2018, 06:01 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

That crock of BS defense has got to stop. It stinks to the high heavens when a politician uses
it, and it would stink to the high heavens if it was to be applied to a situation of this nature.

i would take it one step further, and say not only does years of dedication not override wrong
doing, but i question if there was any dediccation at all. Years of self-serving while tricking
others, pretending its dedication, harming others under the illusion of looking out for others.
Exhibit A - 000501
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 501/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If the only reason someone took a position of service was so that they could actually elevate
themselves, then they provided no service. And in fact, such a person is worse than someone
who harms others in the open. At least the person who harmed others openly didnt have the
nerve to demand praise for it for years.

02-19-2018, 06:07 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

...
Add to these the entire Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1 & 2 competition tapes that Walter sent to me
which I forwarded to Todd to review and store for TG...that was another approx 100 tapes
right there.
..

This makes an interesting since Todd is now banned I would imagine he's not feeling super
friendly towards TG. Billy may be in a similiar position. @Dave Hawksett (maybe @Dave
Hawksett forgot if theres a space) with TG looking to get tapes back, will there by a priority
to get tapes back from former refs whos scores are under dispute as things could turn bitter?
For the record, I dont think Todd is like that, I think he's more likely to try to prove what a
team player he is, but I would fear sabotage from others.

02-19-2018, 06:10 AM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Multiple referees did send in the tapes to the Adler-era TG at their request. However, the
Adler-era subsequently relinquished all rights to the tapes and it's then possible several other
caches were destroyed/thrown out - obviously the individual refs would have to be contacted
to confirm the individual outcomes. Mine were simply stashed in my loft (still there, buried).

02-19-2018, 06:15 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

I sit and read thru here, and see people question why conversations go on in other places. And
not here as you think they should?

Because of the smart ass posts like you just made.

You just cant help yourself apparently.

I actually mean this with no disrespect, as we're all on the same side on this one. The melted
tapes do bare some relevance though if any of them were the tapes in question. If perhaps, a
few key tapes survived, maybe because a friend was asked to store themExhibit
and forgot
A - about
000502all
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 502/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

this, and now suddenly the tapes were found to not be destroyed after all but safe somwhere
that was forgotten about I would imagine the tapes would be welcomed and the
unpleasantness over their exisetence not being mentioned earlier could easily be explained
away.

02-19-2018, 06:23 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Have to agree, also, having to pay AND verify the scores... that would be a bit harsh... We are
already the force which keeps TG ticking over.

Realize this was a DECADE ago. When they still had refs. I was offering ideas for Walter to
possibly monetize the site... so they could afford to keep the lights on, and pay refs for their
work.

I think of the ESPN Insider subscription. The casual user can see the site, but to submit
records and view archives, a small fee would be required.

Now with the TGSAP in place, I agree with you.

02-19-2018, 06:31 AM
Robert.F

i did the something years ago , Referees want to get pay like anyone ells ... my suggestion
was a bit different, rather then a Subscription fee a small submission fee like $2 , it would
help to pay the Referees for there time and at the sometime cut down on submission for
games that are 100th place score`s , is $2 to much to ask ?

02-19-2018, 07:08 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I always cared. I was there at the beginning. It's people such as yourself and Rudy who make
it extremely difficult to care and not want to waste my time here. Something you are already
making me regret my decision to even participate again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Jeremy Young has done a great job presenting evidence here. Jace Hall and his team has
replicated his results. The evidence speaks for itself. Once this concludes, we will have to
determine how to move forward with this info as well. Because yes theyExhibit
are Alumni. Major
A - 000503
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 503/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

League Baseball has Pete Rose and Barry Bonds among others...

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

It is a shame that such a prestigious and influential organization doesn't seem to care about
monumental controversies that are tearing through the community.

I'm here. I'm commenting when and where it's appropriate. And yet I here I am dealing with
you and the the exact same crap that makes me NOT want to be here, and the rest of the team
feels the same way. Why would anyone want to come here and attempt to contribute, and deal
with people like you?

Registering the USNVGT had NOTHING to do with being prestigious or influential. It had
EVERYTHING to do with what is taking place in this dispute thread right here, right now. It
was to ensure that the entire story of ALL members are told. Truthfully. And not to just put
one person above everybody else like had been done in the past.

If I didn't care, I wouldn't be here. If it wasn't important, I wouldn't be here. I'm not here to
degrade people, call them petty, childish names, and continue bashing people in the manner
you choose to. You have a problem with somebody? Go talk to them. Deal with it. Then get
some therapy and get over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

For the record, Scott and I had a conversation, and we decided to register it. I'm not
commenting on that any further. It doesn't belong here.

To you Datagod I'm putting you on ignore. Your nonsense has no place on this site, but
especially not in this dispute thread.

To the rest of the people following this thread, I apologize for adding unnecessary clutter to
the conversation.

02-19-2018, 07:19 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

It is a shame that such a prestigious and influential organization doesn't seem to care about
monumental controversies that are tearing through the community.

I suppose if the USNVGT was ever even slightly relevant they would has spoken up by now.

Exhibit A - 000504
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 504/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

But we all know the story behind that one. "Hey Tim! Let's trademark this here name and
claim ownership to their proud history!"

RTM REPLY - don't forget...Bill and Todd are also members of the "Council of Legendary
Gamers" - http://obsoletegamer.com/council-of-gaming-legends/

02-19-2018, 07:35 AM
Dave Hawksett

We have indeed located various caches of old evidence and have begun retrieval. Some of
those who have tapes etc. in their possession have been very helpful so far. To date there has
been no prioritisation overall but this dispute has shown how useful it is to have access to our
old material. Your question is understandable but, in general, we will not be posting details of
how we are going about this as there are potential confidentiality issues.

When appropriate we will continue to update members when critical pieces of older footage
come back to us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

This makes an interesting since Todd is now banned I would imagine he's not feeling super
friendly towards TG. Billy may be in a similiar position. @DaveHawksett (maybe @Dave
Hawksett forgot if theres a space) with TG looking to get tapes back, will there by a priority
to get tapes back from former refs whos scores are under dispute as things could turn bitter?
For the record, I dont think Todd is like that, I think he's more likely to try to prove what a
team player he is, but I would fear sabotage from others.

02-19-2018, 08:33 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - don't forget...Bill and Todd are also members of the "Council of Legendary
Gamers" - //obsoletegamer.com/council-of-gaming-legends/

As well as inaugural class inductees into the IVGHoF

02-19-2018, 09:17 AM
JJT_Defender

Billy Mitchell & Todd Rogers also Patrick Scott Patterson etc. Wielded a Lot Power in the
Retro Gaming Community through out the Years sometimes Abusing it for Their Personal
Gain and Made a Lot Of Money and was in the Lime Light on TV Shows, News Channels,
Game Shows, Movies,Online, Game Magazines, Guinness Book of World Records,Popular
Magazines Like Times , Life etc . and Met Many Celebrities & Got Video & Pictures Taken
with them Sold Merchandise in their Names & Products, Built their Egos Up & Known
through out the World, etc. They all Benefit Big Time
What goes Around Comes Around that is Fate. Exhibit A - 000505
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 505/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

instead of Many Great Classic Arcade Gamer's that were overlooked and did not get Full
Credit for Their Accomplishments. Like John McAllister RTM , Dwayne Richards, Martin
Bedard, Donald Hayes, & Many Others

I wonder what is Twin Galaxy Stance on Todd Rogers being Banned and found out to be a
Cheater will they Remove him from Council of Legendary Gamers" or IVGHoF

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

As well as inaugural class inductees into the IVGHoF

Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post

RTM REPLY - don't forget...Bill and Todd are also members of the "Council of Legendary
Gamers" - //obsoletegamer.com/council-of-gaming-legends/

02-19-2018, 11:27 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - don't forget...Bill and Todd are also members of the "Council of Legendary
Gamers" - //obsoletegamer.com/council-of-gaming-legends/

Obsolete Gamer dose not seam to be much of a website,, they did interview billy in 2016,,
this clip kinda interesting Billy talking about pure jealousy and how some top player are
dysfunctional, He certainly full of himself :)
[COLOR=var(--ytd-video-primary-info-renderer-title-color, var(--yt-primary-text-
color))]Billy Mitchell on Gamer Negativity[/COLOR]
https://youtu.be/pu8B2OVfYGs?t=1m17s

02-19-2018, 12:03 PM
BenMullen

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

What ever happened to the massive cache of VHS tapes that were in Dental Texass? I heard
they melted or got eaten by cockroaches or something.

Such a shame. I wonder if Billy's tapes were there.

Gawd... this is why we cant have nice things. Trying to turn every little thing in the world into
your stupid vendetta against PSP is just lazy as hell. Get it together.

on an slightly related similar note. What a dumb corporate policy it was to expect mostly
Exhibit A - 000506
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 506/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

unpaid refs to store evidence forever! Stupid under every administration that both started it
and did not try to get the tapes later. Its time to pay postage tg (and maybe backpay some
freaking storage costs too!)

02-19-2018, 03:10 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMullen

Gawd... this is why we cant have nice things. Trying to turn every little thing in the world into
your stupid vendetta against PSP is just lazy as hell. Get it together.

Turning every little thing in the world into a vendetta sounds like a lot of effort if you ask me.
Not something a lazy person would do. Get it together Ben.

02-19-2018, 06:40 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Obsolete Gamer dose not seam to be much of a website

RTM REPLY - It's not so much the website as it is the group itself. I never understood what
was so "legendary" about them for starters, but then again I already posted on the TG forum
how I feel about "legends" in gaming.

I'm curious what the other "Council" members think of what has been going on, as of late.
And considering the entire CLG idea was Walter's, I'm curious what he thinks as well.

I was told that on some other site (KLOV ?) that mention was made giving indication that
some "team of engineers" was shortly going to make an announcement of support in favour of
Bill's performances, but I was unable to find the associated link. I was also told that the
person who made this announcement was very close to the situation at hand.

02-19-2018, 06:57 PM
p0wer up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

10 submission points for $2 or something like that?

I'm sure people would support that.

02-19-2018, 06:58 PM
Tessman
Exhibit A - 000507
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 507/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

That was from an alleged Facebook message from Walter. Walter said that some team of
engineers was going to prove Billy innocent. Quite frankly, I'm sceptical of this claim and
expect the 'engineers' coming to Billy's defense saying, 'Well, you can't be sure...', instead of
hard proof.

02-19-2018, 07:39 PM
JJT_Defender

Is It MAME or Is it Arcade What Do you Think Twin Galaxy Members?

If their is No Video of Billy's 1,062,800 then it should Be Removed if in the Findings show
MAME with No Splicing & Analyzed By Experts then it Should Be Placed in MAME
Donkey Kong Archives or if They Find that it was done On Arcade Donkey Kong then
Should Be Put in Arcade Donkey Kong Archives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&t=8904s

Billy Mitchell 1,050,200 Donkey

Kong Direct Feed
02-19-2018, 07:45 PM
JJT_Defender

Here is a Suggestion Have Billy Mitchell Play on a Arcade Donkey Kong Machine Live On
Twitch through Twin Galaxy So All Twin Galaxy Members Can Watch with no Magic Tricks
of Course or Slight of Hand.

02-19-2018, 08:17 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0wer up

10 submission points for $2 or something like that?

I'm sure people would support that.

Yeah, I would just go use youtube and link to other sites showing I have the high score.

02-19-2018, 10:11 PM
Marcade Exhibit A - 000508
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 508/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Referee "Mr. Rogers" approved little Brandon's DK game, however Keith, the coin collector
discovered it was played on MAME.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElS3-62oxyg

02-20-2018, 12:01 AM
bounty bob
1 Attachment(s)

In case any one was still in any doubt regarding the board swap video, here's a link to a
slightly enhanced version, which might or might not make things a little clearer. Personally I
was convinced before that the same board was being swapped in and out but this is just a little
clearer.

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/3a9...9223415/73947d

I didn't do the processing but the details are :

"I used Adobe Premiere Pro with a sharpen filter (set to 10) and a shadow
highlight filter (highlight 0, shadow 50). In addition to the timecode
overlay and a simple invert filter on the second video segment. It's
nothing fancy, and frankly I'm surprised that it was not done before now.
If need be, I can provide a screenshot of the precise settings used, but I
think that would be overkill. Anyone with basic video editing skills can
replicate the process, provided they have the required software."

Here's an image showing the differences between the two boards.

Attachment 50912

02-20-2018, 12:06 AM
bounty bob

Like I said, I'm sure there aren't many in doubt about this fake swap, but just in case. Looking
forward to seeing what Billy's team have come up with!

02-20-2018, 01:01 AM
skquinn

I don't know how this can't be more cut and dried than this.

The sole witness to this particular score is a former TG referee now banned from the site for
cheating.
The video of his previous two attempts appears to have been played on MAME, not the actual
original DK boards, and also appears to have been poorly edited.

I know it's kind of moot given that several other legitimate attempts have since surpassed it,
but I'm puzzled as to what else is needed for this to be a valid challenge and for this score to
be stricken from the list for the fraud that it is.

02-20-2018, 03:35 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000509
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 509/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by skquinn

I don't know how this can't be more cut and dried than this.

Todd was not the sole referee there,, there was two referee there and why are people popping
in at the last min with there summations on how it is :) and stop picking or poking around my
Board swap video playing csi detective it was all esplanade and excepted 8 years ago , all
your doing is creating more confusion that there maybe a problem with it,, there i said it
[finger emoji]

02-20-2018, 03:55 AM
skquinn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Todd was not the sole referee there,, there was two referee there

Who else was there, and why have they not said anything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

and why are people popping in at the last min with there summations on how it is :) and stop
picking or poking around my Board swap video playing csi detective it was all esplanade and
excepted 8 years ago , all your doing is creating more confusion that there maybe a problem
with it,, there i said it [finger emoji]

If you made the video, then maybe you can explain why both boards look like Donkey Kong
Jr. boards when one is supposed to be a Donkey Kong board (the one taken out)?

Maybe you can explain for us why the other two attempts by the same player for which we do
have video draw the board the same way as MAME does (different from the original arcade
hardware) even though they were supposedly played on original arcade hardware?

Inquiring minds want to know...

02-20-2018, 04:14 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by skquinn

Who else was there, and why have they not said anything?

I think the other referee was Todd's girlfriend...

Exhibit A - 000510
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 510/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-20-2018, 04:19 AM
skquinn

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

I think the other referee was Todd's girlfriend...

If so, not exactly the bastion of credibility given what has happened to Todd since.

02-20-2018, 04:58 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by skquinn

Who else was there, and why have they not said anything?

If you made the video, then maybe you can explain why both boards look like Donkey Kong
Jr. boards when one is supposed to be a Donkey Kong board (the one taken out)?

Inquiring minds want to know...

I`m very familiar with their differences when comes to physical appearance of the two boards
and have own both boards and the cabinets ..The biggest and easiest way to tell there different
is that DK has a volume pot for Analog sound and DKJR dose not .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc8G0gXh5Og

As for your second question.... there is zero video`s of Billy playing DK at Boomers,, but
supposedly there where direct feed vhs tapes made that day july 31st 2010 at boomers and
was play on a vcr at the arcade hall fame on Aug 7th on TVs , this was to display his game at
boomers and that two has been proven to be mame by video`s made that day by people where
where there of the game play ion the screens ,,,,, mame mame mame ,, i wish people wouls
stop getting canfused that somehow he play mame at boomers and there was some how a
computer with mame hook up to the Nintendo cab at boomers,,,,, non that true , not to repeat
billys words but "The fact of the matter" The Rules for Donkey Kong submissions via tape or
dvd at TG where made vary long and detailed.... Billy was corner he could not submit his
Donkey Kong direct feed 1.026.000 tape the rules would not allow it ,, Soooooo he would
have to redo his game according to the rules Orrrr do it LIVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVGtNaSxeuI, are starting to get the picture?

He cook up a plan to FAKE doing it live to steal the record away from Hank Chan a week
before the big hall fame thing,,, The board swap video stinks of setup, Todd Rogers said he
was out shopping for spiders and was not even plan for him to be there that day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKTKPB_Ksl4, so whats the story did billy plan on
playing live with hopes he find a TG reefer on that day , or was he just planing to say he made
direct feed tapes that day if no reefer where available and there zero evidence of any kind he

Exhibit A - 000511
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 511/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

used direct feed at boomer , there more evidence in that boomers swop video showing he
didn't have any kind of direct feed ,,, i got to stop im starting to foaming at the mouth

02-20-2018, 05:18 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by skquinn

I don't know how this can't be more cut and dried than this.

It needs a gummy substance on one of the chips. :P

Sorry I couldn't resist...

In all seriousness though, I'm with you this is a clear accept and valid dispute.

02-20-2018, 07:27 AM
BenMullen
All the kings horses

It seems to me like so far all the attempts at defending BM come down to showing that
MAYBE one extremely minor component of a MAME load could appear to happen from
Cabinet under an extremely specific set up mid-frame circumstances. The problem is that it is
only one of several markers and only now and again that it might occur.

It seems like they need to somehow produce something that does all of the markers of mame,
and all of the time, like all of his videos do. Frankly, that just is not going to happen.

There is apparently some "team of engineers" working on something or other but even with
the numerous musings in defense of billy they have really offered nothing of any particular
meaning thus far.

Of course giving the defense time is important but this "team of engineers" should not be
allowed to become an indefinite stalling tactic.

I think TG, once it feels it has enough to make an announcement, should instead announce
that it WILL make an announcement and continue to allow some time, but not all the time in
the world. I think that even if TG felt it had what it needed to make a ruling today, the end of
March would be a good date to set.

02-20-2018, 08:19 AM
Robert.F

Quote: Exhibit A - 000512

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 512/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by BenMullen

It seems like they need to somehow produce something that does all of the markers of mame,
and all of the time, like all of his videos do. Frankly, that just is not going to happen.

There is apparently some "team of engineers" working on something or other but even with
the numerous musings in defense of billy they have really offered nothing of any particular
meaning thus far.

Of course giving the defense time is important but this "team of engineers" should not be
allowed to become an indefinite stalling tactic.

March sounds good :) personally I`m really interested in seeing (if there anything to see)
...what they can come up with

times good ,

Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves with it :)

02-20-2018, 08:26 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/3a9...9223415/73947d

Here's an image showing the differences between the two boards.

Attachment 50912

Spot #3 was the most blatant giveaway that the board swap was staged. That blue component
just sticks out like a sore thumb, and cannot be explained away as some of color degradation.

That board swap is absolutely 100% bogus. And the person doing the swap should be
ashamed of themselves for going along with Billy's scam.

02-20-2018, 09:00 AM
thegamer1185
Exhibit A - 000513
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 513/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Why the end of March? Everything is here. Everything BM side has come up with has been
countered. Everything presented against BM has been confirmed. It has been 2 months of
nothing from BM side except a few photos of how the DK game could almost pass as
MAME. Then it was countered by TG. From what I remember, TG is in possession of a few
BM tapes. See what that evidence comes up with. Other than that, how long should they
really be given? End of time? TG in these circumstances should give them a reasonable time
frame from the time they post about such evidence. 2 weeks is plenty long enough for
engineers to gather what they need and reproduce something. Especially something as easy as
press and record. BM, Todd, and the guy who did the board swap should know exactly what
was used in doing all these things, right?

It's not like the Dragster dispute where a guy actually built a testing rig to test the coding of a
game and what not. It's plug this into here, record. That's it. It's been long enough for BM.
The longer he has, the more publicly he gains which is exactly what that guy craves.

02-20-2018, 09:39 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

I think the other referee was Todd's girlfriend...

RTM REPLY - when, officially, was "Morningdove Mahoney" annointed a Twin Galaxies
referee and by whom ? Not sure if TG ever publicly said as much.

Also, until now, was it ever mentioned that a second referee was present ? Just wondering.

02-20-2018, 09:43 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

It needs a gummy substance on one of the chips. :P

Sorry I couldn't resist....

RTM REPLY - how much I totally regret listening to Bill and Chris telling me how a
"gummy substance" can impact the clock speed, never midn reiterating that for the cameras.
Not my finest moment during my tenure with TG :(

02-20-2018, 09:47 AM
RTM
1 Attachment(s)

This must be the "team of engineers" looking into Bill's DK boards

Attachment 50944

02-20-2018, 09:56 AM
Exhibit A - 000514
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 514/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

CoreyStup

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

That board swap is absolutely 100% bogus. And the person doing the swap should be
ashamed of themselves for going along with Billy's scam.

New lurker, been following the thread for a little while.

Is the "Rob" featured in the board swap video the same "Robert.F" posting in the thread here?

02-20-2018, 10:04 AM
Ninglendo

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - when, officially, was "Morningdove Mahoney" annointed a Twin Galaxies
referee and by whom ? Not sure if TG ever publicly said as much.

Also, until now, was it ever mentioned that a second referee was present ? Just wondering.

I asked that same question earlier in this thread. I don't recall her being an official ref. Yet in
the interviews with Billy he claims there were two refs there. So far from Billy's mouth there
was Todd, Morning Dove, Pete, and the tech Mr. Childs.

02-20-2018, 10:11 AM
timhett

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreyStup

New lurker, been following the thread for a little while.

Is the "Rob" featured in the board swap video the same "Robert.F" posting in the thread here?

No, different person

02-20-2018, 10:31 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

Todd introduced Morningdove to me at the Big Bang 2010. She was introduced as his
girlfriend and as ref.

Funny thing... I'm not sure any of them were refs at that time. Pete and Childs never were.
Todd I believe was listed as the *Chief Evangelical Officer* or some such title...apparently as
an heir apparent to Walter Day and Walter's impending retirement?
Exhibit A - 000515
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 515/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I did not witness Todd or Morningdove referee anything at the Ottumwa Event. There are
photos of all TG officials that *worked the event* at that point in time. Todd and
Morningdove were not in that photo. It could be as simple as they were not working the
event...since Todd was getting inducted that year.

But in the instances where it's mentioned that TWO refs were present...those references are
directed at Todd Rogers and Morningdove. I hear Billy say that at the event. It might even
have been in print in the magazine that they handed out at the event with the story about
Billy's two scores... set a mere 6 days prior to the event... and that magazine...

02-20-2018, 10:32 AM
Ninglendo

https://web.archive.org/web/20100102...ndex.aspx?c=15

JD brought this to my attention. She was a ref at large but not a ref for any specified platform
which I find a tad weird. Currently looking for any announcements or forum posts to answer
the how and why questions about her time as a ref.

02-20-2018, 10:43 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

https://web.archive.org/web/20100102...ndex.aspx?c=15

An *at large ref* with no specific platforms... would have made it simple to possibly verify
Todd's scores? I'm not saying that happened...I can't look, and I'm guessing with the wipe, that
info may be completely gone as well...

02-20-2018, 10:43 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - when, officially, was "Morningdove Mahoney" annointed a Twin Galaxies
referee and by whom ? Not sure if TG ever publicly said as much.

Also, until now, was it ever mentioned that a second referee was present ? Just wondering.

This TG press release cites two refs:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100815...x?c=27&id=2213

02-20-2018, 11:10 AM
Snowflake

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000516
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 516/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by BenMullen

It seems like they need to somehow produce something that does all of the markers of mame,
and all of the time, like all of his videos do. Frankly, that just is not going to happen.

There is apparently some "team of engineers" working on something or other but even with
the numerous musings in defense of billy they have really offered nothing of any particular
meaning thus far.

Of course giving the defense time is important but this "team of engineers" should not be
allowed to become an indefinite stalling tactic.

THIS!!!!!!!!!!! exactly!

A quick refresher of mitchell tactics

Soon to come #1: All answers will be given on the east side dave show, stop jumping to
conclusions give the man a chance to speak, hear his side, you're questions will be answered.
Actual come#1: You're all a bunch of losers, i'm awesome, no questions to be answers

Soon to come #2: That was all the hosts fault, dont blame billy, even though billy was the one
to insult everyone and refuse to answer questions, and pick the host, it wasnt his fault. Give
poor billy a chance, all your questions will be answered with Josh Houslander as the
interview
Actual come#2: No questions we have are answered, josh does however ask hard hitting
questions like how billy feels about Patrick Scott Patterson and his co-host from another show
Rudy Ferretti as well as other people who never commented once in this thread. No relevant
questions asked. Billy does at least deny using mame and give us a teaser that he he'll have a
team working on it, but not much details. Basically, a "soon to come#3" is given at the end of
the interview but no real answers.

Soon to come #3: A team of engineers is working to come up with a way to explain how
arcade, on an unmodified board with video not doctored can look like mame. Considering the
question involves an unmodified board, not sure what the engineers are working on, but dont
hold your breath.

So yes, considering billy has already established a pattern of "soon to come! soon to come! i'll
answer your questions. Ha ha @!#?@ you i'm not answering your questions. Wait wait soon
to come give me a chance" then yeah, I'm also all for thoroughness but not just an eternal
delay.

02-20-2018, 11:11 AM
pwnasaurus
Exhibit A - 000517
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 517/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

https://web.archive.org/web/20100102...ndex.aspx?c=15

Yeah I remember looking at that page when I first registered at TG and who to send stuff too.
I recalled seeing her name there as well as it was a memorable first name amongst the ones
listed and made me remember seeing it.

02-20-2018, 11:34 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - when, officially, was "Morningdove Mahoney" annointed a Twin Galaxies
referee and by whom ? Not sure if TG ever publicly said as much.

Also, until now, was it ever mentioned that a second referee was present ? Just wondering.

"Morningdove Mahoney" annointed a Twin Galaxies referee BY Billy himself

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=1m41s

just after

Billy Mitchell speaks

(july,2010) moments after
breaking donkey kong record
Dont for get the 100 or so people there watching him with cell phones and video cameras set
the record https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVGtNaSxeuI

02-20-2018, 11:54 AM
JJT_Defender

It is Really Interesting With 100 Plus People At Boomers July 2010 Not one of Them have
Put Any Pictures or Videos of Billy Mitchell Arcade Donkey Kong Game or Score of
1,062,800 This Thread. Not even All Alleged News Crews had anything or Gaming
Magazine's or Online Shows or at Least a Youtube of the Score or Play Nothing.

Really Strange Indeed Were Is Waldo the Missing Donkey Kong Pictures & Video coverage
and 100 Witnesses.

Exhibit A - 000518
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 518/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Unless Billy does Not Care at All about his Arcade Donkey Kong Score of 1,062,800 or
Bettering it.
Their Is Mounting of Factual Evidence Showing that he Spliced & Played on MAME on the
Other 2 Million Point Arcade Donkey Kong Games that Billy Mitchell Played

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

"Morningdove Mahoney" annointed a Twin Galaxies referee BY Billy himself
https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=1m41s

just after

Billy Mitchell speaks

02-20-2018, 12:00 PM
JJT_Defender

If I were Billy Mitchell I would Work Hard on the Arcade Game Donkey Kong so to be Able
to Score at Least on Average his Personal Best Score of 1,062,800 or Better so When He
Plays at Donkey Kong Off 6 he would Be Able to Prove Everybody Wrong that he is able to
Score a Million Points on the Arcade Donkey Kong not Make Excuses.

Their is Plenty of Great Arcade & MAME Donkey Kong Videos to Learn A Lot from and to
Increase Scoring over a Million to 1.25 million Plus

If you are True Champion and Competitor you have to be Up for the Challenge.
Not Debating or Counter Arguments Instead Defend and Play Live On Video and Uploaded to
Twin Galaxy for All Twin Galaxy Members to See or Better Yet On Either Twitch or
YouTube or on a Live Retro Game Show for the World to See Billy Mitchell does Love the
Lime Light
What Better Time Then Now Huge Opportunity for Him and Twin Galaxy

02-20-2018, 12:00 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Exhibit A - 000519
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 519/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Robert, your dedication to TG is immense and you deserve a lot of credit for the effort you
put into the scoreboard. You are a legend and i personally thank you for helping make the
score board what it is today.

Isn't it funny how where Billy is always involved some how. Even with this joke i made... it
stems from him. I originally thought you were the one who discovered this RTM. But it seems
Billy was behind it... Just seems odd to me that he's always involved some how.

As for these 'engineers' I don't think they should be given too long... Especially when we have
no idea of what they are up to. They could be creating a 'master tape' of their own which
removes the MAME game play or anything like that... Not difficult I could do it myself with
an hour and Adobe Premier.

I never forget the quote "Billy Mitchell always has a plan" yes sure... that was from the KoK
which was misleading but I'm beginning to wonder how real that quote really is.

Again as I've said before, I have no bias for or against Billy but he is beginning to appear
sneaky as hell.

02-20-2018, 12:13 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)

In the PCB swap video, some members examined the presence of what looks like a laptop in
the video, and what Robert might have used it for.

I noticed upon re-viewing the "moments after DK record" video that we can also see what I
think is the same computer there around the 1:26 minute mark. It's visible for the next several
seconds.

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=1m26s

Attachment 50945

It looks like some sort of video editor or video viewer to the left - looks like a computer
desktop with desktop icons to the right.

Perhaps there was on-site editing of Robert's "live" videos, although doing it on-site seems
completely unnecessary.

02-20-2018, 12:27 PM
Robert.F
i dont know about that

i dont know about that creating a 'master tape',,, it would have to re create a lot of stuff like
the game play itself , it would have to match up the score on each number level,,, there is a lot
of footage of Billy tape on display at the hall of fame to compare with and new discovery,,,, i
like them to recreate the same look and feel as other direct feed tapes he made,,,

I dont feel this be the end of billy but his actions in the past need to be address, He has
Exhibit A - 000520
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 520/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

manipulated the system to his own gain and hurt people along the was ,,,, Hank for one and
Steve Weebe before Hank first in the kok and again when Steve got the record back ...Billy
dose it again ...i dont have the full facts on this one..... but did billy not play behind a wall or a
room well his dk game well up on a big screen in the main room ? Who was in that tiny room
with billy at mortgage brokers event? how do we know it was just another mame tape being
feed to the screen ? it would seam mame a handy tool to fool people who beleave in you and
your gaming skills blindly https://youtu.be/F85Uy2yWsGg?t=4m23s

02-20-2018, 12:28 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninglendo

https://web.archive.org/web/20100102...ndex.aspx?c=15

RTM REPLY - Apparently she was a "referee-at-large" -

https://web.archive.org/web/20100102...ndex.aspx?c=15

There were specific governances for this position in that this level of staffer. I thought I had
created the posted rules for the position on the old TG forum but cannot find at present.

In any event, this link does confirm that she was a "referee-at-large".

02-20-2018, 12:28 PM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

The fact there is a laptop right next to the machine speaks volumes to me... and it's been
awhile since I've used Windows but for some reason that window reminds me of early
MAME/WolfMAME.

Attachment 50946

That said, they surely wouldn't be stupid enough to record that laptop if it was indeed the
machine running MAME so I'm going to say it's likely a video editor though like you say...

But, for what purpose i have no idea... it's not the live video they are doing as the preview
window is blank. Direct capture perhaps? Is there an image on the DK cab at this time? As it
would show on the preview window if this was the case.

02-20-2018, 12:34 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

In the PCB swap video, some members examined the presence of what looks like a laptop in
the video, and what Robert might have used it for. Exhibit A - 000521
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 521/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I noticed upon re-viewing the "moments after DK record" video that we can also see what I
think is the same computer there around the 1:26 minute mark. It's visible for the next several
seconds.

https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=1m26s

Attachment 50945

It looks like some sort of video editor or video viewer to the left - looks like a computer
desktop with desktop icons to the right.

Perhaps there was on-site editing of Robert's "live" videos, although doing it on-site seems
completely unnecessary.

To bad there was no time stamp on Robs camera ,

i think both whhopty doo videos Billy set the Record,,, where with in min of each other .....
Billy and friends not being there long , can allso exsplan NO ONE who was at the arcade that
was not invald would remember seeing anything...... and who Enzo :)

02-20-2018, 12:39 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

The fact there is a laptop right next to the machine speaks volumes to me... and it's been
awhile since I've used Windows but for some reason that window reminds me of early
MAME/WolfMAME.

Attachment 50946

That said, they surely wouldn't be stupid enough to record that laptop if it was indeed the
machine running MAME so I'm going to say it's likely a video editor though like you say...

Direct capture drought it , But still a smock screen to sagest Direct capture, live stream or
some kind of documentation was going on, to any on lookers or just for the fake oh look im
playing live video

02-20-2018, 01:37 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

they surely wouldn't be stupid enough to record that laptop if it was indeed the machine
running MAME so I'm going to say it's likely a video editor though like you say

comsidering they recorded the proof that billy didn’t even play dk due to it being a dk jr board
and they didn’t just record that on accident but purposely made it the focus of the video I
Exhibit A - 000522
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 522/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

wouldn’t say there’s anything they’re too stupid to do

02-20-2018, 02:11 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/3a9...9223415/73947d

I didn't do the processing but the details are :

Here's an image showing the differences between the two boards.

Attachment 50912

I've taken the liberty to upload the video file to YouTube in case there are people who don't
want to download the video. The video is the original followed by a color inverted version.

https://youtu.be/-IAhltwKL7E

I think Apollo Legend's video claiming the boards because the chips in the upper right are
yellow in both is a little weak, because with the video quality you could claim that it's kind of
hard to distinguish between white and yellow because they're both bright colors. However, the
difference between light and dark colors is certainly distinguishable. If you look at difference
#3 above, you'll see that the DK board has a black chip and the DK Jr board has a light blue
chip. You can see the light blue color at 00:14 in the original. This is another piece of
evidence that the first board shown is the same as the second one.

Another difference is that isn't seen between the "two" boards in the video is #4 with the DK
board have two large chips and the DK Jr. board only having one. It's a little fuzzy in the
video but I only see one large chip at 00:14.

02-20-2018, 02:13 PM
paramylodon
1 Attachment(s)

It looks like the differences image isn't appeared in the quoted text. Here it is.

Attachment 50951

02-20-2018, 02:54 PM
Exhibit A - 000523
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 523/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

The fact there is a laptop right next to the machine speaks volumes to me... and it's been
awhile since I've used Windows but for some reason that window reminds me of early
MAME/WolfMAME.

Attachment 50946

That said, they surely wouldn't be stupid enough to record that laptop if it was indeed the
machine running MAME so I'm going to say it's likely a video editor though like you say...

I actually said this very thing a while back. Who's to say the PCB was even hooked up
properly and that the computer that was "recording" a direct feed wasn't actually "feeding" an
image to the monitor in the cab. The computer and cab monitor are far enough away no one
could detect anything out of the ordinary. It was for appearances only. Can't prove it, but I did
bring that up. It would explain Billy blocking the cabinet from video, it would explain the
need to fake a PCB swap. The computer being there can used to say "yep, I direct captured
that's why the computer is there." Anything is possible right.

02-20-2018, 04:03 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Perhaps there was on-site editing of Robert's "live" videos, although doing it on-site seems
completely unnecessary.

On second thought, I'll recant my initial conclusion. My memory is a bit hazy about digital
tech in 2010, but I can see value in editing "live" videos on-site and reviewing them on
something larger and more clear than a tiny recorder view finder - it's a chance to review and
confirm that you got the footage the way you wanted from the various "live" re-enactments
and that nothing obviously snuck in you didn't want seen (eg. a clear, sustained view of the
arcade screen past Billy's shoulder). If you wait until you're back home to review and edit, it's
too late for a do-over if you spot something obviously amiss.

02-20-2018, 04:42 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I've taken the liberty to upload the video file to YouTube in case there are people who don't
want to download the video. The video is the original followed by a color inverted version.

https://youtu.be/-IAhltwKL7E

I think Apollo Legend's video claiming the boards because the chips in Exhibit
the upperAright are
- 000524
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 524/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

yellow in both is a little weak, because with the video quality you could claim that it's kind of
hard to distinguish between white and yellow because they're both bright colors. However, the
difference between light and dark colors is certainly distinguishable. If you look at difference
#3 above, you'll see that the DK board has a black chip and the DK Jr board has a light blue
chip. You can see the light blue color at 00:14 in the original. This is another piece of
evidence that the first board shown is the same as the second one.

Blue Chip , what are you talking about ? you mean the Dip Switch Bank ha ha ha

02-20-2018, 04:50 PM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
Top of Page one

the vary first page of this Dispute it right in front of your eyes
,,, THERE NO VOLUME POT on the Jr board being taken out
Attachment 50958

02-20-2018, 05:00 PM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
NO POT

NO POT NO PUT Attachment 50959

02-20-2018, 05:00 PM
Fendersonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

The fact there is a laptop right next to the machine speaks volumes to me... and it's been
awhile since I've used Windows but for some reason that window reminds me of early
MAME/WolfMAME.

Attachment 50946

That said, they surely wouldn't be stupid enough to record that laptop if it was indeed the
machine running MAME so I'm going to say it's likely a video editor though like you say...

The only image I've seen on that Donkey Kong cab is of some vines from DK Jr..... you
know.... "just moments" after the DK record was allegedly taken. Look at 2:03 in that video
and use the period key to advance frame by frame.

02-20-2018, 05:03 PM
Exhibit A - 000525
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 525/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Robert.F
Sorry i was wrong about the Blue chip

Sorry i was wrong about the Blue chip , still no import-in

02-20-2018, 05:53 PM
paramylodon
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Blue Chip , what are you talking about ? you mean the Dip Switch Bank ha ha ha

I'm not very hardware savvy so any little rectangular object on a board to me is called a
"chip". Though distinguishing a DK board from a DK Jr. board is less about hardware
knowledge and more about the ability to solve a "spot the difference" puzzle. Though some of
the community who don't buy the MAME evidence may have trouble with those...

Attachment 50960

02-20-2018, 07:02 PM
InsertCoins

I want to add 2 things to the thread.

1. What other gamers have used direct feeds for submissions? I feel this is not very common.
Why? Just setup a tripod, that's what everyone does.

2. Video cameras were not that expensive when this came out I bought a camera for around
$200-$250 probably a year before this came out and I still use it to this day. There was no
need to purchase a $1000 camera at this time.

02-20-2018, 11:45 PM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by InsertCoins

I want to add 2 things to the thread.

1. What other gamers have used direct feeds for submissions? I feel this is not very common.
Why? Just setup a tripod, that's what everyone does.

The video wasn't for score submission. Billy claims his scores were referee verified, which
was an acceptable means of verification in those days. He says the videos were, 'just for fun'.
It's unfortunate for him that these fun videos exist as it looks like they will be the ones to trip
him up. If he'd never made these 'fun' videos, we wouldn't be sitting here approaching page
140 of a dispute thread, so I wonder how fun he feels they are now?

02-21-2018, 04:20 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000526
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 526/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by bounty bob

Yeah, that and the fact that he didn't actually have them verified properly and Todd Rogers
wasn't actually a ref at the time. If they were for fun, why did he send out copies to other refs
for verification? Why did he even bother making that BS board swap video? "Just for fun" I
guess. Don't drink the Billy cool-aid.

02-21-2018, 04:33 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I'm not drinking any cool-aid, I was just quoting Billy. Has any other ref come forward to say
that they've seen the 1.06m video? Has anybody seen anything more than that brief clip we
have of him announcing both the scores?

02-21-2018, 04:40 AM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
Tick, tock

from QAOP Spaceman post in the DKF

Attachment 51033

I suppose in a way you have to admire the brass balls of Billy and Robert
Childs in trying to eke out a last dollar or two from this whole sorry saga:
It might be worth going to this if you're in Florida this weekend, because
something tells me it may be the last chance to see the great man play in
public.

Tick, tock.

02-21-2018, 04:59 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

The video wasn't for score submission. Billy claims his scores were referee verified, which
was an acceptable means of verification in those days. He says the videos were, 'just for fun'.
Exhibit A - 000527
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 527/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

It's unfortunate for him that these fun videos exist as it looks like they will be the ones to trip
him up. If he'd never made these 'fun' videos, we wouldn't be sitting here approaching page
140 of a dispute thread, so I wonder how fun he feels they are now?

True, but there would have been huge skepticism in the community he had just declared
"Todd watched me get back-to-back world records on two notoriously difficult titles on the
same day. They were live verified, but we didn't bother with recording footage in 2010. Didn't
feel like it. Honest." It's not to say that he didn't do his level best to ensure the "direct
feed"/MAME videos were seen by as few people as possible. Who's going to scrutinize Billy's
record run during an announcement? And was that even possible if someone was so inclined?
I think Josh mentioned on Empire TV that the videos were playing on an "endless loop," and
that might be true. The Christian Pac-Man's video shows Billy killing off his last players at
the end of the game as he secured the new record - that would have been almost three hours of
gameplay, but it was caught on video after about 20 minutes of Billy talking?

02-21-2018, 05:31 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

If you look at difference #3 above, you'll see that the DK board has a black chip and the DK
Jr board has a light blue chip. You can see the light blue color at 00:14 in the original. This is
another piece of evidence that the first board shown is the same as the second one.

I posted this same point a few pages ago. Spot #3 100% proves the swap was staged. That
means conspiracy to deceive the public with not just Billy Mitchell, but Robert Childs as well.
I'm telling you it's just like Lance Armstrong all over again, where he has a team of people
helping him deceive the public. Likely paid them off too.

02-21-2018, 07:33 AM
RTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234Y76_3YPE

Has anyone noticed that this related video has passed the 1 million view mark ?

02-21-2018, 07:36 AM
LMDAVE

That's pretty impressive considering when I first saw it last week it only had 69 views and 3
comments.

02-21-2018, 08:20 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234Y76_3YPE

Has anyone noticed that this related video has passed the 1 million view mark ?

It's worth noting that... that video has more views now, than Billy ever scored on a single
game of Donkey Kong, with or without save states...
Exhibit A - 000528
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 528/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-21-2018, 09:49 AM
Ripper

Is this a world record for the longest debate thread of all time?

02-21-2018, 10:31 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

Is this a world record for the longest debate thread of all time?

Might be a record for the longest debate thread without any substance from one side of the
argument. It's like Billy's lot aren't really trying.

02-21-2018, 11:15 AM
gavv

The retro vgs/ coleco chameleon thread on matariage has it beat by a mile :)

02-21-2018, 12:43 PM
FBX

The only thing left is for Billy's "team of experts" to hurry up with their fake video to
'exonerate' Billy. Remember I called it several pages back that the stalling is likely in order to
craft a new lie to cover the old one, and the excuse will be "it's not our problem if you can't
reproduce the same result". That's IF anything ever shows up. Beyond that, there's really
nothing more to be said, and we're just waiting on the official announcement from Jace.

02-21-2018, 01:31 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

BTW I know other images have been posted showing the DK junior board differences, but it's
such a smoking gun of blatant proportions that NOBODY can sanely argue against this:

Attachment 51072

02-21-2018, 02:05 PM
thegamer1185

Can we just close this one already? My torch is going out and I've been picking my teeth with
my pitchfork I'm so bored. What am I supposed to while I wait for this to close, play games?

02-21-2018, 02:18 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

BTW I know other images have been posted showing the DK junior board differences, but it's
such a smoking gun of blatant proportions that NOBODY can sanely argue against this:

Prepare yourself for a display of insanity from Billy/supporters.

Exhibit A - 000529
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 529/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-21-2018, 02:39 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Prepare yourself for a display of insanity from Billy/supporters.

Of course, but you know what? if just SOME of them actually looked at the board swap
footage and did some Googling of DK and DKJ boards, it would start to sink in. That blue
cap is so blatantly obvious compared to a DK board's black IC chip that it cannot be
explained away or denied with any semblance of logic. They literally have to admit the board
swap was staged. PERIOD.

02-21-2018, 04:01 PM
The Evener
2 Attachment(s)

Sincere apologies if this is a repost - I searched the thread for "elevator" and came up with
four hits that didn't touch on this, but I might have used the wrong search term.

GDLarcade's video of Billy's Boomer announcement captures an elevator transition that

matches up with the earlier builds of MAME. I created a gif, and reposted one from Xelnia to
compare from post 19.

https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=2m23s

Attachment 51098

Attachment 51094

02-21-2018, 04:09 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Sincere apologies if this is a repost - I searched the thread for "elevator" and came up with
four hits that didn't touch on this, but I might have used the wrong search term.

GDLarcade's video of Billy's Boomer announcement captures an elevator transition that

matches up with the earlier builds of MAME. I created a gif, and reposted one from Xelnia to
compare from post 19.

https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=2m23s

Attachment 51098

Attachment 51094

Checking the transition right after looks a lot like MAME as well.

02-21-2018, 04:18 PM
Asterra
Exhibit A - 000530
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 530/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

GDLarcade's video of Billy's Boomer announcement captures an elevator transition that
matches up with the earlier builds of MAME. I created a gif, and reposted one from Xelnia to
compare from post 19.

At this point, I think the only thing that would make this discussion freshly substantial (apart
from either an official verdict or at least an analysis of whatever faux evidence gets submitted
by the team of experts) would be for focus to segue over to Donkey Kong Jr. to see if scrutiny
might reveal clues about those runs. After all, we all now know very well that the "direct
feed" nature of the Donkey Kong runs is false, so for starters there is absolutely no reason to
assume the "direct feed" DKJr. recording(s) are any less fraudulent.

My guess: Given that Billy created both scores in rapid succession, and clearly manipulated
DK's RNG for barrel smashes, he would have felt no qualms about doing the same for
random points in DKJr., to give his score the unbeatable edge he believed he was getting.
Unfortunately, I am unaware of any full recording of any of Billy's DKJr. runs. Plus, this is
off-topic.

02-21-2018, 04:57 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Can't argue with your assessment, so I apologize for posts that are getting close to clutter.
Still, dispute reviews not only perform an evidence review function, but they act as a clearing
house for related discussions, so in my mind DK Junior is definitely related. Unfortunately,
even GDLarcade's video doesn't provide a great view of Junior.

My main interest in reviewing the GDLarcade video was to determine exactly how long the
videos ran before Billy made his announcement. In this video, you can actually see the video
players "start up," and the video begins on DK at around 940,000 points. I wondered if
@timmell or others could confirm if Billy had the tapes running all weekend at his table?
Josh refers to the videos as a "loop," and I was curious if this was the case, meaning that the
video he used at the announcement possibly wasn't a full-length recording. In any event, it's
clear to me from listening to the Empire TV interview again that TG doesn't have the videos
since Billy was the last person confirmed to have them, full stop. He has zero recollection of
what he did with them, except to assert they must have left his hands because "they're all over
the Internet" (which they're not - the only related videos on YouTube are recordings of his
Exhibit A - 000531
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 531/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

announcement). His lapse hasn't stopped him from trying to pin responsibility on TG and
suggesting his vindication hangs on TG finding these tapes.

Billy: “I’m assuming by what you [Josh] told me that it was Todd - let’s run with the fact it
was Todd, because it would have been either Todd or Pete who brought them to the Big Bang,
because it wasn’t me. But let’s just run with the fact it was Todd. And if it was Todd, you
[Josh] saw the tape in Todd’s hand, and God bless him. I also saw the tapes in David’s hand,
because David gave them to me, or right at the table, handed them to me, so I could put them
in and play them on the TVs - okay, that’s what I know. Okay. From there, where did they go?
They went somewhere because they’re all over the Internet. Where did the originals go? I
don’t really know. And more importantly, I would imagine that wherever the originals are, the
room tape is."

02-21-2018, 05:24 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

My guess: Given that Billy created both scores in rapid succession, and clearly manipulated
DK's RNG for barrel smashes...

RTM REPLY - I just remembered something Bill told me many years back after Steve's
1.006M submission to TG. He basically said that no matter what score Steve might submit
down the line, he (Bill) would just send me a higher score on tape, which lead me to believe
back then that Bill had some cache of previously accomplished scores all in excess of 1M
each higher than the last.

I believed this at the time because for starters, his dumping of points with a score that I was
told he intentionally ended multiple screens before the kill screen and he was still well over
900K, and also from what I saw in that 1.047M performance from 2005.

It's all starting to make sense now...why a world class record holder would intentionally dump
points during both live and taped performances not even caring that had he finished the
performance naturally he could have ended up with 1.1M+, as if there was no pressure to ever
reach that high again.

The intentionally dumped points infuriated me as a gamer...I liken that to point-shaving in

professional sports. Very unsportsmanlike and unethical. But if he did so with MAME, that is
far, far worse.

I took out a thread in the general section about multiple "firsts" that Bill claimed over the
years. Depending on the outcome of this thread I might have to add another to that short
list...first to attain a TG arcade world record using MAME.

02-21-2018, 05:57 PM
The Evener
2 Attachment(s)

Apologies to all and the Heavy Hand - I pine for an edit feature:

GDLarcade's example of the elevator/spring transition matches MAME build 0.116 to 0.121,
Exhibit A - 000532
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 532/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

which I include below. I errantly used the gif for MAME 0.115 and earlier in my original
post.

Attachment 51104

Attachment 51106

02-21-2018, 06:53 PM
Julius Reigns

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

The intentionally dumped points infuriated me as a gamer...I liken that to point-shaving in

professional sports. Very unsportsmanlike and unethical. But if he did so with MAME, that is
far, far worse.

To further that thought in my own guess: I think the largest reason Billy dumped the points
versus finishing out a 1.1M is most likely to allow for it to be beat and betting/relying on a
small margin of victory as it appeared a new record would most likely have. Then he could
simply set up another hoax event, get some new 99th percentile RNG MAME recordings, and
the rest is "video game world record history!!!" Billy would have regained his title setting a
new "record" and be the "King of Kong" again, also while simultaneously probably handing
another "defeat" to Steve Weibe and give that loser a taste of "Billy Mitchell" (hot sauce not
included). There plenty of other reasons that contribute if this is the case, but this is my
opinion and I believe this would be a large, if not largest, factor. He gets a huge ego boost
while simultaneously delivering a dagger to his "nemesis".

02-21-2018, 07:21 PM
erockbrox

After seeing the evidence, I believe that Billy needs to make an apology to Twin Galaxies and
the gaming community.

02-21-2018, 07:35 PM
RTM Exhibit A - 000533
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 533/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Reigns

RTM REPLY - Agree. To some players there may be a satisfaction to beating a rival not just
once by dramatically doubling or tripling their score, but to beat them multiple times over the
course of however long the rivalry lasted for.

Of course in DK there is no "doubling" of a rival's score, but if in a limited point-based game

you have the skill to pull off a 1.1M from all indications of past performances and yet keep
the dance going with these marginal victories, that's just milking it for the sake of attention.

Think about all the "mystique" that would have been avoided had Bill revealed what could
have been a 1.125 million point game WAY back in 2005 as opposed to intentionally dumping
points to produce an equally intentional 1,047,200.

And the same can be said of the 1.014M from 2004...in Bill's own words he called Steve to
congratulate him about his own 1.006M BUT Bill also mentioned that his own 1.014M was
done a full year earlier. That is just so uncool on so many levels. Playground pettiness.

And had Bill done just that...NO media attention for 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, etc, all up until
one of today's top DK players formally broke the 1.1M mark many years later.

So based on that, I do agree with your assessment. It makes a lot of sense.

02-21-2018, 07:38 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

After seeing the evidence, I believe that Billy needs to make an apology to Twin Galaxies and
the gaming community.

RTM REPLY - I think Walter owes an apology as well for ramming some of these
submissions down the referee's throats to validate even though they went against his own
stated rules governing submissions.

02-21-2018, 07:41 PM
Snowflake
Exhibit A - 000534
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 534/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Of course in DK there is no "doubling" of a rival's score, but if in a limited point-based game

you have the skill to pull off a 1.1M from all indications of past performances and yet keep
the dance going with these marginal victories, that's just milking it for the sake of attention.

And had Bill done just that...NO media attention for 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, etc, all up until
one of today's top DK players formally broke the 1.1M mark many years later.

So based on that, I do agree with your assessment. It makes a lot of sense.

This is interesting, we're analyzing psychology now, which is never perfect, but still
interesting. And its not like Billy doesnt understand how to work the public. He runs a
business. He knows how to advertise. He knows how to appeal to the public. He knows how
to get appearances and make sure he gets other appearances. Despite trying to convince
people he's some sort of bumbling fool, he's clearly quite good at knowing how to keep the
focus on him. So considering he has established this skill for years, its not hard at all to
believe everything both of you say above is true. This was just another case of Billy using his
people skills (but not his gaming skills) to promote himself.

02-21-2018, 08:05 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

After seeing the evidence, I believe that Billy needs to make an apology to Twin Galaxies and
the gaming community.

I've come to the notion that if Billy's lips are moving, he is lying. I wouldn't believe any
apology for one second. I'd rather there not even be an attempt of apologizing. He might,
creates more drama.

02-21-2018, 09:01 PM
Robert.F

i think its time to Write a Letter to all the people i knowingly ***** over the past 10 years :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN9gQn6WRco

02-22-2018, 12:16 AM
bounty bob
Exhibit A - 000535
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 535/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Of course in DK there is no "doubling" of a rival's score, but if in a limited point-based game

you have the skill to pull off a 1.1M from all indications of past performances and yet keep
the dance going with these marginal victories, that's just milking it for the sake of attention.

And had Bill done just that...NO media attention for 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, etc, all up until
one of today's top DK players formally broke the 1.1M mark many years later.

So based on that, I do agree with your assessment. It makes a lot of sense.

I also agree with this, even if the scores were genuine, the manner with which it was all done
shows a total lack of class. However, if he hadn't had the media attention in 2004, 2005, 2006,
2007 etc, then would the Donkey Kong community and the current world record be where it
is today? Almost certainly not. So while any cheating needs to be met with the appropriate
response and I'm not suggesting we go light on Billy, let's not forget the great scene that has
risen up from these actions.

02-22-2018, 06:13 AM
WCopeland

To contribute to the body of evidence, I connected my own DK PCB to my capture card with
a direct feed setup. I'm using a sync strike and a Gonbes scaler board. This is a totally
different capture setup than what Chris Gleed has, yet yielded the same results.

https://i.imgur.com/brrpNIu.gif

https://i.imgur.com/8EgpTgW.gif

https://i.imgur.com/VoGLKbb.gif

https://i.imgur.com/EdZAM1E.gif

02-22-2018, 06:59 AM
FBX

I spoke with Walter and showed him the ironclad evidence of the blue cap in the DK board
swap video. Walter didn't have anything to say about it specifically, but just claimed he was
"certain" Billy never used MAME. He did say that he would treat whatever official
conclusions come out with an open mind, so there's that at least.

02-22-2018, 07:43 AM Exhibit A - 000536

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 536/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

RTM REPLY - most people don't know this, but will is has a longtime track record of
"sticking it" to certain people, even if in jest.

I am referring to something that dates WAY back to early 1999 when, at the first ACAM
event (which I attended) Rick Fothergill achieved a then-record of 3,333,270 on classic
arcade "Pacman", missing 9 hidden dots due to a life loss.

Bill said that at the very bottom of his printed posters there are 9 dots there as a "friendly jab"
against Rick Fothergill.

Clearly this is a good natured jab, and a recurring one, but it also goes to show that he is not
opposed to rubbing it in to someone, thus the 1,100 point beat and the 100,000 point beat on
DK. There is no other gamer I can think of that engages in such nonsense.

02-22-2018, 10:13 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

...I'm not suggesting we go light on Billy, let's not forget the great scene that has risen up from
these actions.

RTM REPLY - the parallel here is the MLB and the "Home Run Derby" between Mark
Maguire and "Slammin" Sammy Sosa.

A lot of media hooplah and interest was generated that particular year even in light of the
steroid-based accomplishments.

However, did the MLB expunge all records established by the two ? Or for any of the other
steroid-abusers ? No. Were their pensions taken away ? No.

Further, in the MLB and unlike Billy playing DK, the actions of a single individual change
the outcome on a team, division and league level, yet those outcomes were neither vacated
nor was any associated decision rendered accordingly.

Exhibit A - 000537
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 537/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In Billy's case, if, as an individual, his alleged MAME-related actions are proven true, that
would have the impact of affecting TG as a business on a number of levels as well.

02-22-2018, 10:19 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

RTM REPLY - Unfortunately in Walter's case being "certain" is never a guarantee.

Back-track to Feb/07 for an AllGamesRadio interview between Walter, myself and Roy
Shildt.

Up until that point Walter had told his base of TG referees over and over again about the
events of 1985 at the Ironman Challenge. Walter was "certain" of his recollection up to that
point as well.

An hour before the event, he contacts Tony Temple (UK) and Todd Rogers (Florida) to ask
them each a question...

-> One of them was asked if "Missile Command" made a noise associated with earning extra
cities
-> The other was asked "what were the odds" that he (Walter) could have watched a game
without realizing that extra cities were being added ?

That does NOT sound like questions coming from someone who was "certain" of his own
direct, in-person involvement...so I am hard to believe that he is "certain" of what someone
else did outside of his personal purvue.

I won't even go into the fact that he did not ask or even recollect whether "Missile Command"
at TGTS would give the 170 bonus cities at 810K (it does not)...but someone who was
"certain" should have known that as well.

02-22-2018, 10:32 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - Unfortunately in Walter's case being "certain" is never a guarantee.

Back-track to Feb/07 for an AllGamesRadio interview between Walter, myself and Roy
Shildt.

Up until that point Walter had told his base of TG referees over and over again about the
events of 1985 at the Ironman Challenge. Walter was "certain" of his recollection up to that
Exhibit A - 000538
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 538/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

point as well.

An hour before the event, he contacts Tony Temple (UK) and Todd Rogers (Florida) to ask
them each a question...

well i think i agree with we're you're going with this, but for the particular example I could
see walter maybe noticing the visuals and not correlating sound in his mind. however, there is
something i would say about trust people often miss.

trust isnt as simple as "either you trust him or you dont". For some people I trust their morals
but not their skills. For example, I dont think Walter would lie, but I do think he would make
an honest mistake. If he said he watched billy play donkey kong on arcade with his own eyes
i'd believe him, since I trust his ability to know what he saw. If he says billy told him and he
has full faith billy would never lie, then sorry, but I dont trust his judgement of others. Time
after time he's showed he's far too nice and forgiving. I cant hold that against him. Mercy and
forgiveness are admirable, but they can go to far. So no, I dont think Walter would lie, but I
do think he can be easily tricked by Billy into believing Billy's lies.

02-22-2018, 10:51 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM;951755[snip

In Billy's case, if, as an individual, his alleged MAME-related actions are proven true, that
would have the impact of affecting TG as a business on a number of levels as well.

The lack of will on the part of MLB to clean up the sport may be the model of best practices
that TG should follow. There are multiple other sporting contexts - the Olympics is a timely
example - where cheating will result in the stripping of medals, even years later if it comes to
that.

While I understand the philosophical question about Billy fostering higher visibility for DK
that was posed earlier despite MAME and save states, I think that's a bit misplaced - Seth
Gordon deserves far more credit for his docudrama elevating DK as a premiere high score
achievement than Billy Mitchell - Billy played his part. What sport worth its salt would ever
rise and fall on the participation of a single player? Yes, the world would have been a
Exhibit A - 000539
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 539/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

different place if Billy's MAME use was exposed years earlier - but why assume the DK
scene would be worse for it?

02-22-2018, 10:55 AM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

So while any cheating needs to be met with the appropriate response and I'm not suggesting
we go light on Billy, let's not forget the great scene that has risen up from these actions.

This is why villians are always remembered. As long as the ends justify the means. So Billy
cheated (maybe, no verdict yet), but hey we wouldn't be here without him. While it may be
true, I'll never accept that as a reason for why he did. With that being said, he will probably
use this "cheating" as way to say exactly that. Yep, if I hadn't done what I did, video games
would be history. Praise me!

02-22-2018, 10:58 AM
The Evener

Fixed it - missed it the first time

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

The lack of will on the part of MLB to clean up the sport may not be the model of best
practices that TG should follow.

02-22-2018, 10:59 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - Unfortunately in Walter's case being "certain" is never a guarantee.

Since Walter didn't address the image I posted showing how the board swap video was 100%
proven to have been staged, I got the idea that Walter's 'certainty' was actually just him not
wanting to believe Billy cheated. He can't believe it, because Billy was such a huge
contributor for Walter's TG promotions.

Nevertheless, the evidence was right there in front of him in my message, and not one word
about it.

02-22-2018, 11:28 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

So Billy cheated (maybe, no verdict yet), but hey we wouldn't be here without him.

Exhibit A - 000540
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 540/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

A humble correction. What we're waiting on here is Twin Galaxies' verdict, which, if I'm
being brutally honest, is almost unavoidably the same as saying we're waiting on one entity to
assemble the evidence into something ironclad by their personal standards. Meanwhile, this
isn't a court of law and we're free to make our own conclusions, as for example the DKF
promptly did, given that there truly was no question about the evidence provided in Xelnia's
original expose.

And this is a good thing. Imagine fast forwarding a month or two, and the TG verdict still
hasn't been reached -- not because they lack evidence, but because everyone is still waiting on
Billy Mitchell's latest stalling tactic. That is, after all, the very reason why we are waiting on
an analysis of the vaunted original tapes, when there is already nothing at all left to prove; it's
because that was one of Billy's earlier stalls. The longer this takes, the more opportunity
exists to find a new angle or slip in more falsified evidence. So it's definitely a boon that we're
allowed to judge for ourselves.

02-22-2018, 01:09 PM
Jace Hall
2 Attachment(s)
Simple update

For those that may have missed our previous update:

Twin Galaxies has what it suspects are legitimate copies of original Billy Mitchell Donkey
Kong performances.
Attachment 51190

We have not yet had an opportunity to examine the tape content to confirm their legitimacy or
to do proper frame analysis in regard to this dispute.

The reason for this delay is due to the nature of the tapes being quite old, and our desire not to
damage the tapes by utilizing anything other than the highest grade equipment to view the
tape content.

The last thing we want is to stick these tapes in a consumer grade VHS player and then have
the media get destroyed by low grade mechanisms.

We are currently awaiting the arrival of some of our equipment so that we can move the
investigation forward. We are specifically waiting on our JVC BR-S822DXU.
Attachment 51192

If you want to learn more about the device and why we feel it is important to do this VHS
frame analysis with it you can click this link for more details:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/t...&feature_id=02 - as you will see there are many factors
involved when it comes to time base errors, noise reduction, etc.

We hope to have it at our main offices by this Friday.

In the meanwhile we have been closely examining all of the evidence presented in this dispute
thread as well as the discussion.

We appreciate everyone's patience in this matter.

02-22-2018, 01:15 PM
RTM
Exhibit A - 000541
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 541/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Imagine fast forwarding a month or two, and the TG verdict still hasn't been reached...because
everyone is still waiting on Billy Mitchell's latest stalling tactic...The longer this takes, the
more opportunity exists to find a new angle or slip in more falsified evidence

RTM REPLY - based on what you said, the irony is that if Bill were to do just that...find
another "angle"...that is EXACTLY what Roy was doing to us 15-16 years ago over his
"Missile Command" score.

A group of TG staffers, including consultants such as Bill, Chris Ayra, Dwayne Richard, Greg
Erway and Darren Harris, had evaluated all the collected bits of evidence (hard and anecdotal)
over his 1985 performance.

Each time we found more fault with Roy's "story" of what happened, he would come up with
yet a new, slightly altered version which was modified to factor in the new hole that we
uncovered.

Case in point...when it was ironclad that his originally provided sequence of events was
problematic, he had tried to get TG to change the date attributed to his score in the database.

Another case in point...he had maintained for years that two specific gamers were both
present to witness his performance (Chris Ayra and Darren Harris), yet when it was
discovered that Darren had actually saved his transportation tickets from way back in 1985
which proved that he and Chris were never there at the same time, Roy also changed that
element of his "story".

And then there's what happened when a former TG staffer posted a version of the settings for
the title to the rules governing the game based on a PDF file of the operator manual not
realizing at time time that there were three different versions of the manual, so of course Roy
has ever since maintained that he was playing a game based on the one manual while TG was
incorrectly tracking scores from the wrong manuals.

So I can understand the need for quick closure before a "new angle" is found...or rather a
"Hail Mary".

02-22-2018, 01:17 PM
RTM

This link works - http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/t...&feature_id=02

02-22-2018, 01:28 PM
WCopeland

I don't have the required credibility to start a dispute on the DKJr score. However, here is
direct feed footage I just took from my Donkey Kong Jr. PCB. I have already done some
initial analysis on the board transitions. I'm sure someone crafty can come up with
comparisons better than I can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WdoDohjmWs

02-22-2018, 05:25 PM Exhibit A - 000542

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 542/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Patentman31
What do you think happened?

From reading about 75% of this massive dispute thread, it seems that the folks who believe it
was a false score think he had the game played on MAME before even attending this Iowa
event. However, what does everyone think happened at the Iowa event? Did he even play at
the Iowa event? If he did in fact play there how did he fool everyone there into thinking he
scored what he claims he did? Did he play the MAME tape on the display and then pretend he
was actually playing it by moving the controls to match what was coming up on the screen?
Would it be easier just to play an actual game but then at some point when no one was
looking just quit and say you hit the high score? Would it be a better way to fool everyone by
doing some combination of the two, for example playing for real for a while but then at the
end substituting actual game play for the MAME tape displayed on the screen? The part of
this I can't seem to understand is why would he make a tape of switching out a board that
could be identified as the wrong board? Any theories on what you think the actual sequence
of events was? Lots of questions I know, but I'm just trying to understand how you could pull
off the scam in a live event. I'm not saying he did or didn't do it. Just wondering what other
people think actually happened.

02-22-2018, 06:00 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patentman31

The score under dispute was allegedly played a week previously in Florida at Boomer's
Arcade on July 31, 2010. The Iowa event was Billy's induction into the International Video
Game Hall of Fame - he used this event to "announce" his world records on DK and DK
Junior.

Quote:

If he did in fact play there how did he fool everyone there into thinking he scored what he
claims he did?

He did not play DK or DK Junior at the IVGHOF event; he played videos of his two world
records during his announcement.

Quote:

Did he play the MAME tape on the display and then pretend he was actually playing it by
moving the controls to match what was coming up on the screen? Would it be easier just to
play an actual game but then at some point when no one was looking just quit and say you hit
the high score?

The consensus is that Billy recorded his DK on MAME prior to July 31. On July 31, Billy
visited Boomers Arcade and Robert Childs recorded three videos - one allegedly following
the moments after his new DK world record, a DK to DK Junior PCB swap, and a final video
allegedly following his high score achievement on DK Junior. There was no need for Billy to
Exhibit A - 000543
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 543/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

"pretend" to play DK or DK Junior live that day - Robert's videos (unintentionally)

demonstrate that, in fact, no live play occurred that day. So to your last comment, a variation
of that occurred - a MAME game was recorded off-site, and Billy claimed the high score was
achieved that day in the videos Robert recorded.

Quote:

Would it be a better way to fool everyone by doing some combination of the two, for example
playing for real for a while but then at the end substituting actual game play for the MAME
tape displayed on the screen? The part of this I can't seem to understand is why would he
make a tape of switching out a board that could be identified as the wrong board?

My own conclusion is that Robert didn't expect anyone would actually notice - he
underestimated people's expertise with PCBs, and presumed that people would accept his
multiple declarations that he was taking out a DK PCB, and putting in a DK Junior PCB. The
fact they made a video where people could identify the ruse was unintentional. When Robert
was confronted with the accusation that it was DK Junior all along weeks later, it was too late
to change anything, so he chose to remove the original video where he declared "I'm
switching out the Donkey Kong board and I'm putting in DK Junior" and re-uploaded this
video with the dialogue removed, replaced with classical music.

The problem with recording part of the game "live" and then just submitting a MAME video
is that people would inevitably ask "where's the rest of the video you recorded with the
external camera?" It would draw suspicion, although to be perfectly fair, Robert's three videos
raised suspicion immediately back in 2010.

Quote:

Any theories on what you think the actual sequence of events was? Lots of questions I know,
but I'm just trying to understand how you could pull off the scam in a live event. I'm not
saying he did or didn't do it. Just wondering what other people think actually happened.

To recap, the consensus is that Billy recorded his MAME DK game off site prior to July 31;
he went to Boomers on July 31, and Robert recorded three videos in an attempt to create
"evidence" that Billy had achieved two live arcade world records back-to-back on that date; a
week later, Billy announced his world records at the Big Bang/IVGHOF event in Iowa.

02-22-2018, 06:02 PM
JJT_Defender

Welcome to Twin Galaxy Pantentman

https://kotaku.com/former-world-reco...ute-1822736797
On July 31, 2010 Mitchell recorded world record scores for Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong
Jr. after a session at Boomers Arcade in Dania, Florida. He supposedly logged a score of
1,062,800 points in Donkey Kong and 1,270,900 in Donkey Kong Jr.

#1 If he did Play Arcade Game Donkey Kong at Boomer's Arcade in Dania, Florida

Then Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong Game Play Video Without Question Their Will Be Sounds
of other Arcade Games, Sounds Of Kids Playing, Announcements over the the Loud Speaker,
Coloured Lights,

If None of these above are in Billy Mitchell's Arcade Donkey Kong Video Score of 1,062,800
Exhibit A - 000544
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 544/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Then Billy Flat Out Lied about Playing at Boomer's

and of Course Billy Mitchell's Arcade Donkey Kong Game Play from the Beginning to the
Final Score & Verification the the donkey Kong PCB, ROM's, Control Panel Joystick &
Button's and Especially and Most importantly the Dip Switch Game Settings. I

If Billy Mitchell's Game Play Footage Video is in the Dark and without any Sound & nothing
in the Background then he did it at Home or Some where Else Surely not at Boomer's

The Other 2 Million Points Game Were in Fact MAME Tested and Proven was Emulation
that was Pieced together.

Now for the 1,062,800 Arcade Donkey Kong is Being Looked as We Speak.

Hopefully Twin Galaxy will Let Twin Galaxy Members See it for Themselves And
Adjudicate and Analyze

1. Supportively their were a 100 Witnesses But None had any Physical Evidence Surely out of
a 100 Witnesses that a Few would had taken Pictures & and Video Tape of Billy Mitchell
Donkey Kong Game Play and Especially the Final Score of 1,0062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patentman31

02-22-2018, 06:13 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patentman31

Would it be a better way to fool everyone by doing some combination of the two, for example
playing for real for a while but then at the end substituting actual game play for the MAME
tape displayed on the screen?
Exhibit A - 000545
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 545/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Although no one has ever seen Billy's 1.062 million score recording beginning to end, an
added logistical barrier is that it would be virtually impossible to start a game "live," and then
play the game on MAME and have the same game events in each environment match
precisely in the same way frame for frame - you'd be more likely to have two recordings that
are slightly different, which would expose the deceit.

02-22-2018, 06:45 PM
Patentman31
Clarification

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

I think that would be a way to catch it, but what I was thinking was you send in the pre-
recorded MAME tape for verification that was recorded weeks earlier. However, at the live
event you play for real in front of everyone, and then at some point switch over to a pre-
recorded tape that is displayed so that you can show everyone there that you reached the high
score. Just wondering what the best way would be to fool a live audience that you did in fact
achieve a world record.

02-22-2018, 07:22 PM
Robert.F

Speculation is base on lose thoughts , to suspect something is base on passably related facts
and confirmation is linking things together with out any proof it didn't happon with in a
resemble dough ..... or you can just go with your gut :)

if you shot someone with a gun and the gun was found, but you wipe your finger prints off it,
do you think you are home free ? what if a video of you wiping your finger prints off the gun
pop 10 years later ?

I have no resemble dough in this Dispute that Billy has not been up to no good and iv been
invalid watching this from the start 2010

02-22-2018, 07:49 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patentman31

Sorry if I misunderstand the scenario, but sending in a score on tape and then performing a
high score attempt "live" would be considered two separate events - anyone watching
Exhibit the live
A - 000546
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 546/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

event would see it was a new high score attempt. You can't "replay" a past submission live,
and you couldn't play the same pre-recorded MAME game live - the identical score and game
play, to say nothing about trying to fake playing the game, would give everything away.

The only plausible scenario to pull off a live world record with a recorded session is not to
have the audience watching you directly. This was suggested as a possible outcome for Billy's
1.05 million record that was achieved at the Mortgage Brokers convention - apparently Billy's
game was displayed on an external screen while Billy allegedly played in an adjacent room
on-site. In such a scenario, one could simply play a pre-recorded MAME session on the
external screen.

02-22-2018, 08:24 PM
Snowflake

I don’t know what billy ate for breakfast that day not does it matter. I don’t know if he faked a
play along nor does it matter. I don’t even know if he played a single game of anything at
boomers. Why would the witnesses be tricked? First I’d have to know of witnesses to explain
that. Unless billy can actually back up his claim he did the score in front of a crowd then I
don’t need to speculate anything about that crowd. Claiming to have many witnesses isn’t the
same thing as having many witnesses. Considering it was dk jr in the cab and I can’t imagine
anyone being fooled into thinking dk jr is dk then for now my best is he didn’t play in public.
If he did play in public though did he actually ask anyone to witness? Did everyone just see
him playing dk jr and think nothing of it having no idea he’d later claim it was dk? Don’t
know doesn’t matter. We can guess a million different things that happened that day all we
know though is the video shows he played mame.

02-22-2018, 08:46 PM
Dwayne Richard
Walter lies just as much or more then Billy

When i saw the ignorance of walter's lack of character as well as Bill's i just about lost it. You
know how many lies walter made up not to take Enrico's nibbler score. Do you know how
many lies walter told about Roy Schildt's Missile Command story. Do you know how many
lies walter told about the perfect pacman and what they did to rick fothergill. Do you know
how many lies walter told about tim szcerby to get screwed in the king of kong. Do you know
how many lies walter told about robert and how bad he treated steve weibe.

Walter makes up a new story everytime you talk to the guy. It was a proverb long before this
billy stuff "how do you know walter is lying? His lips are moving!"

I will stop there. The whole walter and bill history of tg is a massive lie and an exaggeration.
the father of e-sports Wtf another lie!

walter and bill are dance partners in this lie. they are one conglamorate one covers fr the other
like the good cop bad cop routine.

02-22-2018, 09:39 PM
Mitch Mitchell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patentman31

I think that would be a way to catch it, but what I was thinking was you send in the pre-
recorded MAME tape for verification that was recorded weeks earlier. However, at the live
event you play for real in front of everyone, and then at some point switch over to
Exhibit A a- pre-
000547
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 547/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

recorded tape that is displayed so that you can show everyone there that you reached the high
score. Just wondering what the best way would be to fool a live audience that you did in fact
achieve a world record.

There wasn't a live audience at Boomer's to fool, contrary to Billy's claim that there was 100's
of people watching taking photos and videos; in the vids made that day there doesn't actually
seem to be a crowd present.

02-22-2018, 11:12 PM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwayne richard

Walter makes up a new story everytime you talk to the guy. It was a proverb long before this
billy stuff "how do you know walter is lying? His lips are moving!"

I will stop there. The whole walter and bill history of tg is a massive lie and an exaggeration.
the father of e-sports Wtf another lie!

walter and bill are dance partners in this lie. they are one conglamorate one covers fr the other
like the good cop bad cop routine.

I just finished watching your documentary. How do liars sleep at night? “Some sleep like
babies.” -Billy Mitchell

Since this is the first time these scores are truly being validated, judgement should start right
in the middle and allow the evidence to move this line one way or the other.

The two questions to ask are:

1) If this were believed to be Arcade, is there enough evidence to dispute this to be MAME?

I think the answer to this is overwhelmingly yes.

2) if this were believed to be MAME, is there enough evidence to dispute this to be Arcade?

I have yet to see any substatiated evidence proving this at all.

02-23-2018, 06:44 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patentman31

I think that would be a way to catch it, but what I was thinking was you send in the pre-
recorded MAME tape for verification that was recorded weeks earlier. However, at the live
Exhibit A - 000548
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 548/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

event you play for real in front of everyone, and then at some point switch over to a pre-
recorded tape that is displayed so that you can show everyone there that you reached the high
score. Just wondering what the best way would be to fool a live audience that you did in fact
achieve a world record.

It's unlikely there was an audience of more that a few people and those folks likely didn't
know or care who Billy was. Somewhere in this thread is a link to an interview with Todd
Rogers at the Iowa event in which he claims there was no intent to break a record that day, but
that Billy just showed up and did it.

Contrary to what Billy might claim, crowds of hundreds don't follow him around. Ostensibly,
there was no promotion of this event, so it is unlikely 100 people would just show up and
crowd around Billy. The only people who claim a huge crowd was there are Billy, Todd, and
Robert (all questionable in this case) and not one photo or video exists from the 100+ people.

My theory is that Billy had the tapes he'd prepped on MAME, he showed these to Todd and
Robert but explained that "doing them live" would create more benefit and promote the
gaming scene better. These two agreed (thinking the records were a legit direct feed and that a
tweek of when the records occurred isn't a big deal). The three of them concocted the story of
a huge crowd, back to back records, and all the hoopla that's in this thread, and the result is
what we're wading through. I of course give the two other folks the benefit of the doubt in my
theory since there's no reason to muddy the waters with who knew what and when as that will
only take us off point.

TLDR verision: There is no evidence of a crowd that day in Boomers, so there was no one
Billy had to fool with "live game play"

02-23-2018, 08:07 AM
sprinter461

https://www.twingalaxies.com/images/...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by RTM

https://www.twingalaxies.com/images/...post-right.png
RTM REPLY - Unfortunately in Walter's case being "certain" is never a guarantee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Nevertheless, the evidence was right there in front of him in my message, and not one word
about it.

Walter was also *certain* that Nibbler displayed the 1,xxx,xxx,xxx digit and did NOT roll.
Which if you've seen my doc... you know he was wrong.

But beyond that... we are talking about scores set in 2010 or earlier. Walter isn't a young man.
His memory is not what it used to be. But he puts a great deal of trust into a very small
handful of people. I don't think Walter would blatantly lie...at least I hope not...but I do feel if
he honestly couldn't remember something, and one of the people in that very small group told
him it was this or that...whatever...that Walter would absolutely believe it, and repeat it as
truth.
Exhibit A - 000549
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 549/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Thankfully this entire thing doesn't hinge on any one person's word. That was the Wild West
(1980's) of TG's youth...

02-23-2018, 10:24 AM
Fendersonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

So when the magazine order get placed? You know, the one that had both of those new
records that he had at the Hall of Fame event?

02-23-2018, 10:36 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

RTM REPLY - back when I was still a referee for TG there were a few special occasions
where both Walter and Billy showed up in NYC.

On one of those visits, we went to Times Square and did a few things...

-> Check out "The Oliver Garden"

-> Check out "Dave and Busters"
-> Walk thru Times Square

Bill made a point to speak to the maitre-d at the restaurant...not sure what he told them but we
got a large table without reservations. I ended up picking up the tab for that one as well. It
might have been for when he attended with Dwayne and Tim a "Pacman" console
championship on the XBox as I recall they were there as well.

At any event, as we walked thru Times Square, Walter made a point to mention later in the
evening that Billy was "recognized" a good 12 times that day. I even saw someone out of the
Exhibit A - 000550
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 550/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

blue shouting "Hey, Pacman !!" at him from nearby.

BUT...when we walked into "Dave and Busters"...nothing. Not one single person recognized
Billy. I think that was a letdown for him.

Without Walter to promote Bill's accomplishments, the limelight will start to fade...and
without Bill's involvement (and likely cash infusion), Walter's own recognition will likely
fade. Just a matter of time. And I don't think that either of them will stand for long the loss of
the limelight when that eventually happens, so to keep their proverbial "15 minutes of fame"
going, it's one stunt after another. Unfortunately this last one may prove to be the death-knell
for the limelight.

02-23-2018, 11:29 AM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fendersonia

So when the magazine order get placed? You know, the one that had both of those new
records that he had at the Hall of Fame event?

That's one of the things I've been trying to figure out. The magazine was a special edition of:
ð ˜ ð ˜ªð ˜¥ð ˜¦ð ˜° ð ˜Žð ˜¢ð ˜®ð ˜¦ ð ˜Šð ˜°ð ˜*ð ˜*ð ˜¦ð ˜¤ð ˜µð ˜°ð ˜³.
In the magazine Billy is quoted as saying: "Last week I was playing in a very public arena I
was at Boomers, ... I can't talk about it but there will be a major announcement and press
conference in Ottumwa."

I have no idea why he said "last week." I'm assuming the interview took place Sunday, the
day after Billy played at Boomers, in order to print the magazine in time for the BIG Bang, 6
days later. I've been trying to get in contact with the publisher (Shawn Paul Jones) to see
about the timeline of the interview/ printing/ shipping to no avail. I found him on Facebook
and I found a PO box address but I have yet to hear back.

02-23-2018, 12:16 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

seams a little shady https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/..._magazine.html

nothing to be found http://www.videogameobsession.com/vi...ctor/index.htm

Exhibit A - 000551
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 551/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

TG post 2005 https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...ector-Magazine

By 2010 i`m guessing it was mainly a defunk magazine , but i`m sure willing to publish
anything game related for a exchange of funds ,,,,, :)

02-23-2018, 12:27 PM
Robert.F
Big Bang 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

seams a little shady https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/..._magazine.html

nothing to be found https://www.videogameobsession.com/v...ctor/index.htm

TG post 2005 https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ector-Magazine

By 2010 i`m guessing it was mainly a defunk magazine , but i`m sure willing to publish
anything game related for a exchange of funds ,,,,, :)

http://nintendoage.com/forum/message...threadid=44979

""You are not alone. I ordered the $99.99 everything package plus $29.99
Big Bang 2010 (King of Kong Set) after waiting 2 months with no email
response. I should have known. I wanted an archival quality collection of
this magazine, but after waiting a few months and contacting American
Express (card I used, great btw) I got the most heinous, horrendous
looking flat rate box amateurly inked by a first grader in his mother's
basement, and crammed inside were abused and folded copies of MOST of
what I ordered. I never expected this from the website or humorous staff
including industry veteran appearances. What a headache, but luckily I
used my AmEx card, and unlike eBayPal, they don't mess around when it
comes to bad apples. FIRST they refund my entire purchase, THEN they
pursue the offender, freezing accounts who have "messed with AmEx", as
my agent puts it.""

Interesting

02-23-2018, 12:30 PM
Mitch Mitchell
Depends on the Crowd

Yeah he's not really known outside of his arcade niche, its like if the most famous bushcrafter
in the world Ray Mears walked in NYC no one would know him; but at a buchraft trade show
he's the keynote speaker and people travel across the world for a picture with him. Its all
about what crowd you're in at the time. Dave and Busters is such a casual place there's no one
there who sets records and is in the arcade TG style crowd.

If this goes down like it appears it will, Bill might be in the limelight for sometime yet; but
not in the way he would like.

Exhibit A - 000552
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 552/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - back when I was still a referee for TG there were a few special occasions
where both Walter and Billy showed up in NYC.

On one of those visits, we went to Times Square and did a few things...

-> Check out "The Oliver Garden"

-> Check out "Dave and Busters"
-> Walk thru Times Square

At any event, as we walked thru Times Square, Walter made a point to mention later in the
evening that Billy was "recognized" a good 12 times that day. I even saw someone out of the
blue shouting "Hey, Pacman !!" at him from nearby.

BUT...when we walked into "Dave and Busters"...nothing. Not one single person recognized
Billy. I think that was a letdown for him.

02-23-2018, 12:58 PM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

seams a little shady https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/..._magazine.html

nothing to be found https://www.videogameobsession.com/v...ctor/index.htm

TG post 2005 https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ector-Magazine

By 2010 i`m guessing it was mainly a defunk magazine , but i`m sure willing to publish
anything game related for a exchange of funds ,,,,, :)

I got from this http://www.videogameobsession.com/vi...ctor/index.htm to this

the page had to be translated but it is contact info ,,, http://www.vgcollector.com/impressum-
und-kontakt/Attachment 51311

02-23-2018, 01:02 PM
Robert.F
Exhibit A - 000553
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 553/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

remove the

remove the HTTP ,,,,,on google chrome,,,,,

http://www.videogameobsession.com/vi...ctor/index.htm
click on the bottom of the page to get to this vgcollector site

www.vgcollector.com/impressum-und-kontakt/

02-23-2018, 02:15 PM
TomLube

I want to get off TwinGalaxies wild ride.

Seems pretty clear to me, to be honest.

02-23-2018, 02:31 PM
q43
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

I got from this
www.videogameobsession.com/videogame/mags/videogamecollector/index.htm to this
the page had to be translated

Their website went down somewhere in 2016 I believe, I'm quite sure that German Company
that took over the URL is not affiliated. If you go to their old site you can see the magazine
covers they printed for the BIG Bang.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160111...collector.com/

On a completely different note, I recently watched MTV's I'm a Gamer episode again and at
the end of the episode Billy and 2 friends carry in a Missile Command arcade cabinet in to
what I'm assuming is Billy's game room. I thought it was interesting that I couldn't spot a
Donkey Kong cabinet. I'm assuming the video was shot late 2002/ early 2003, which I found
odd considering Tim Scerby broke Billy's long standing record in 2001. Billy scored 933,900
live in 2004 but as far as I can tell he didn't have an upright to practice on in that late 2002/
early 2003 window, at least not in his house. I always assumed Billy didn't need to practice
but I do recall that being his explanation for why he couldn't score over 900k at the Kong
Offs. Kong off 1 was several years after the (933,900) Midwest Gaming score and perhaps he
was too rusty but I'm curious how much practice went in to his King of Kong scores. Also a
bit curious how he practiced at home, if he did at all.

So the timeline is: Timothy Sczerby's score (879,200) is accepted 04-23-2001

MTV True Life (Air date: March 13, 2003)

Billy Mitchell scores 933,900 on 05/07/2004

Attachment 51320

02-23-2018, 05:55 PM
Jace Hall
Just a quick update:
Exhibit A - 000554
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 554/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The video should be self explanatory.

Simple Test

Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Color Black Transparency Opaque
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1349639 Copy
Exhibit A - 000555
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 555/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

We continue to investigate this dispute. Thank you for your patience.

02-23-2018, 06:36 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - back when I was still a referee for TG there were a few special occasions
where both Walter and Billy showed up in NYC.

On one of those visits, we went to Times Square and did a few things...

-> Check out "The Oliver Garden"

-> Check out "Dave and Busters"
-> Walk thru Times Square

BUT...when we walked into "Dave and Busters"...nothing. Not one single person recognized
Billy. I think that was a letdown for him.

all i'm saying is, billy mithcel and jace hall in the same building, and i know who i'm telling
my buddy to roll video of while i run up and hug before being escorted away

02-23-2018, 06:36 PM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

The video should be self explanatory.
We continue to investigate this dispute. Thank you for your patience.

Thanks for the full transparency, Jace... Keep these video segments coming!!!

02-23-2018, 06:39 PM
Snowflake
Exhibit A - 000556
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 556/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

If this goes down like it appears it will, Bill might be in the limelight for sometime yet; but
not in the way he would like.

indeed. plenty of people love video games enough to watch the movies, but not quite enough
to come TG and dig up the details. I know going forward I'll turn down any billy mitchell
merchandise. I won the kaboom tournament for the CCAG (great show by the way, i highly
recommend it, i go every year), the winnings came with a tropy (freaking awesome trophy
that i love), billy mitchel hot sauce (not gonna lie, I enjoyed it with no remorse) and a mitchel
poster which i'll be burning. I'll happily accept further delicious hot sauce, the man runs a
great business but i'll have nothing to do with his video game shenanigans

02-23-2018, 06:40 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

The video should be self explanatory.

Exhibit A - 000557
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 557/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Simple Test

Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Color Black Transparency Opaque
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1349639 Copy

We continue to investigate this dispute. Thank you for your patience.

Exhibit A - 000558
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 558/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

oh man, who hired leutanent worf to voice dub that. Damn you're smooth!!!

02-23-2018, 07:15 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

The video should be self explanatory.

I'm unfamiliar with the capabilities of the hardware on display, but given that it is only
providing 30 still frames per second, and evidently discarding the upper field outright rather
than displaying both together, I feel the footage in the provided video may be confusing to
anyone who now compares it with the GIFs provided in Xelnia's original post. The
impression is that the video is missing frames during the board transition shown.

02-23-2018, 08:10 PM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

The video should be self explanatory.

Exhibit A - 000559
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 559/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Simple Test

Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Color Black Transparency Opaque
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1349639 Copy

We continue to investigate this dispute. Thank you for your patience.

Exhibit A - 000560
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 560/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Here is a side by side comparison of those exact 3 frames with the YouTube version:

https://i.imgur.com/wGlUNAu.gif

02-23-2018, 08:21 PM
YesAffinity

I would like to enter into the body of evidence: direct feed capture @ 60fps via a standard
Nintendo inverter board. The setup is exactly is Robert Childs described it, in terms of how
the inverter board is set up: game board video into inverter board input, non invert out to the
sanyo 20ez chassis, invert out to a wei-ya CV-04 RGB-to-NTSC encoder. Composite output
and capture at 60fps.

direct feed video: https://youtu.be/kkjt17XiPIs

companion video shot with phone, showing the hardware at the beginning of the video:
https://youtu.be/kkjt17XiPIs

Nothing too earth shattering here, but you can see the full startup screens expected at the
beginning of boards, and the transition frame ("sliding door" effect) between the stacked
monkeys and the start of each board.

It might be a couple hours from now before both videos are done uploading.

02-23-2018, 08:22 PM
YesAffinity

Correction:

direct feed video: https://youtu.be/kkjt17XiPIs

companion video shot with phone, showing the hardware at the beginning of the video:
https://youtu.be/woXYg9kkHlQ

02-23-2018, 08:53 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Anyone confused about this can read up on frames vs. fields to clear up confusion. We have
already seen from Xelnia's GIFs that this score in particular has the same temporal resolution
(60fps) as the arcade. A different capture method will make this clear. Meanwhile, you can
witness the exact same phenomenon of frame discarding at work in Youtube's copy of Billy's
1.05m score at the same moment in gameplay. It has also had every other temporal frame
discarded, making the result 30fps, with identical results at the board transition.
Exhibit A - 000561
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 561/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Even when freeze framed, this system is actually showing the full NTSC 29.97 upper and
lower fields from the tape signal together. There is zero field loss from the tape to the NTSC
screen, it is an interlaced display operating at a full 60hz, just like a DK CRT display, and the
$6,000 VCR leaves nothing out.

If this was only showing the lower field, the screen display image would be half the height.
The HR Trinitron is an interlaced display only and everything is kept analog. There is no
digital stretch or conversion taking place - hence no way for a lower-field-only display to fill
a screen.

People should understand that so far all analysis of Billy's 1.05 and 1.047 performances have
been sourced from the video that is on the tapes that we currently have copies of. However,
these sources that are available on the internet are digital copies of the tapes and we are here
internally now seeing that these digital copies may be proving to not be frame accurate
reproductions of what is on the actual tapes themselves.

Since all the video anyone has ever seen of the 1.05 and 1.047 have come from the tape
recordings one way or another, there can be no accurate digital source of the 1.05 and 1.047
that has frames that do not exist on the actual tape.

Any frames found in a digital internet copy of these taped performances that is not on the
tapes have likely been created by the analog to digital conversion or capture process -
resulting in half/half transitional images, interpolation and etc. This is why getting possession
of the actual tapes has been critical to the investigation. Some of this frame interpolation stuff
also somewhat touches an issue that @The Christian Pac-Man raised previously.

Also interestingly, the footage shot by @timmell was recorded at 23.98 - which is
problematic for our investigative purposes.

Now, with the above being said, we have JUST started to really dig into Billy's tapes so we
will see what we discover about them. We've made no determination other than that there
seems to be some frame differentials between the tapes we have in hand, and the digital
copies on the internet that @xelnia may have based some of his analysis on.

It is important to note that these tapes did not come from Billy Mitchell, these tapes came
from Dwayne Richard. We have confirmed these tapes as Billy's tapes (or a copy of them) by
cross referencing it with digital footage we received from a former TG ref, Greg Erway via
Richie Knuckles. So we believe we have the right unaltered material.

Lastly, we are only talking about what is on the tape. Frames that may be actually missing on
the actual tape (if any), is a different matter and speaks to the recording mechanism or
procedure that may have been used to capture the purported "direct feed." We will be
investigating this aspect thoroughly as well when we get to that piece after we finish looking
at these tapes.

In the meanwhile we will be looking at this tape analysis very closely.

As an example for the curious, here is the type of thing we look for when we are examining:

Is every screen transition identical throughout the tape? We already know that it is not in the
digital copies on the internet. Is the tape the same way? If yes, how can that be - the direct
feed VHS capture should not have missed frames. It should have recorded consistently.

Exhibit A - 000562
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 562/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Etc.

We appreciate everyone's patience in this matter. We are being as thorough as possible and
making sure we leave no reasonable stone un-turned before coming to a decision. We are
moving as quickly as possible.

02-23-2018, 09:01 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

direct feed video: https://youtu.be/kkjt17XiPIs

companion video shot with phone, showing the hardware at the beginning of the video:
https://youtu.be/kkjt17XiPIs

It might be a couple hours from now before both videos are done uploading.

This is great and provides a lot of information. However -

I would be very helpful if you could connect your composite output to a VHS recorder and
record 3 tapes:

1.) SP Speed
2.) LP Speed
3.) EP Speed

If you could then send those tapes to us for analysis and comparison it would be very useful.

Possible?

02-23-2018, 09:18 PM
JJT_Defender

@Jace Hall
Question
Will You Let Twin Galaxy Members See the Original Tapes of All 3 Million Point Arcade
Donkey Kong Games By Billy Mitchell and do You have the Original Tape of Billy Mitchell's
1,062,800 which was why this Dispute was Started in the First Place?

Hopefully Everything Gets Works Out

Thank You and God Bless You

02-23-2018, 09:23 PM
Jace Hall Exhibit A - 000563
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 563/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJT_Defender

Hopefully Everything Gets Works Out

Thank You and God Bless You

We do not yet have the 1,062,800 tape.

Yes we plan to let everyone see the full tapes that we have.

02-23-2018, 09:26 PM
thegamer1185

Well **** me! So Billy Mitchell's engineers are the Twin Galaxies admin staff.

02-23-2018, 09:26 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

RTM REPLY - Hi Jace. Just some FYI...

Bill sent me his "master tape" approx 6-8 months after the ACAM 2005 event. He did this
because the tape he sent to Kuh for that event was clearly a copy and we (Brien and I) refused
to accept it for submission purposes unless he sent in the "master".

At some point, for analysis purposes to compare versus the Steve Wiebe performances
received thus far, I loaned the "master" tape to Dwayne Richard with Walter's permission.
What I can't remember is what happened to the tape sent to the ACAM event.

Here are the specific recollections that I have in case there is an issue with identifying the
veracity of that performance...

Level 20 elevator scene...Bill reached the top of the screen at 998,500 and got a 1500 point
completion bonus so that the score reached all-zeroes at this point.

He then slow-played the rest of the game until he achieved a score of 1,047,200...it's been too
long though and I cannot remember the exact specifics of how the game ended, but he might
have had one extra life in storage at the kill screen...again, I cannot remember for sure.

02-23-2018, 09:34 PM Exhibit A - 000564

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 564/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This is great and provides a lot of information. However -

I would be very helpful if you could connect your composite output to a VHS recorder and
record 3 tapes:

1.) SP Speed
2.) LP Speed
3.) EP Speed

If you could then send those tapes to us for analysis and comparison it would be very useful.

Possible?

Should be doable. Will work on it tomorrow.

02-23-2018, 09:42 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Well **** me! So Billy Mitchell's engineers are the Twin Galaxies admin staff.

TG has just started their analysis. Don't forget all of the earlier analysis with arcade rendered
transitions versus MAME. Acknowledging the possible presence of frame differentials during
a copy from analog to digital process over the course of a three to four hour gaming event is a
not "verdict" for or against the veracity of the dispute.

02-23-2018, 09:49 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Upon scrutinizing your video and the Youtube videos more closely, I have come to the weird
conclusion that the feed recorded onto tape is itself 30fps with duplicated frames. I'll leave
further speculation to others, but suffice to say that since we're ostensibly talking about a
"direct feed" to VCR, this item (if accurate) just adds to the pile.

02-23-2018, 09:58 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Exhibit A - 000565
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 565/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I was making a joke. How Billy had this team of engineers and yet we haven't heard anything.
Now TG has a possible "original" tape using a $6000 piece of equipment to analyze the tape.
TG was the engineers Billy may have been sarcastically referring too. Maybe my fault was in
the delivery of the joke?

As for what you said. I'm all about using the original for the whole dispute if you ask me. If it
is confirmed the tape is the original, then it kind of makes all those other videos not really
matter. Those tapes could have been any number scenarios Billy wanted to create for
"appearance" purposes. I'm good with whatever TG discovers. I said it with Todd's Dragster
dispute and I said it many times with this dispute, I hope the score is legit. If it isn't, then good
riddance to bad rubbish.

02-23-2018, 10:08 PM
The Evener

A follow up on Wes' direct feed of DK Junior:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/the-eve...-junior-record

02-23-2018, 10:44 PM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - Hi Jace. Just some FYI...

Here are the specific recollections that I have in case there is an issue with identifying the
veracity of that performance...

Level 20 elevator scene...Bill reached the top of the screen at 998,500 and got a 1500 point
completion bonus so that the score reached all-zeroes at this point.

I double-checked the footage on King of Kong and it was a level 21 barrel stage that Billy
reached exactly a million by sitting on the ladder until it reached 1500 for the bonus.

02-23-2018, 11:16 PM
xelnia Exhibit A - 000566
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 566/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

A follow up on Wes' direct feed of DK Junior:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/the-eve...-junior-record

TG website woes:

I can't read this wall post when logged in, but I can if I open it in incognito mode. I also can't
seem to start a dispute, as clicking the link to do so brings up a blank page in Chrome and
Edge.

02-24-2018, 01:12 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

The video should be self explanatory.

Exhibit A - 000567
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 567/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Simple Test

Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1349639 Copy

We continue to investigate this dispute. Thank you for your patience.

Exhibit A - 000568
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 568/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

So it goes from one frame to another with the barrel board instantly displayed, no rendering
and there has been audio analysis which shows blank spots proving it was spliced... plus all
the other evidence on top...

I admire your in depth investigation into this but at this stage, is it really a discussion? It's so,
so obvious at this point.

02-24-2018, 01:29 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

I admire your in depth investigation into this but at this stage, is it really a discussion? It's so,
so obvious at this point.

Please understand that any current audio analysis you are referring to does not come directly
from the VHS tape. It comes from the digital captures on the internet - most likely the
youtube videos that were put up which were captured by an external camera filming a
television screen, which would account for the introduction of audio (but we haven't looked
into which digital video stream was specifically analyzed for audio.)

The VHS tapes in our possession show no signs of editing so far. However, we will
specifically be looking closely at the audio tracks they contain. It is very easy to determine
edits on a video tape when you have the actual tape available.

02-24-2018, 01:53 AM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Please understand that any current audio analysis you are referring to does not come directly
from the VHS tape. It comes from the digital captures on the internet

The video I'm referring to is Apollo's video on YouTube where he looked at the original tape
from KoK i believe. Granted it comes from a digital media (DVD) then onto YouTube but I
fail to see how this would add blanks in the audio which ironically match the crucial points
where the video appears to be sliced... seems a little too coincidental to me.

Attachment 51373

Really? It doesn't seem edited? To me that looks edited... All the ladders and girders are
drawn instantly on the one frame like someone paused the tape and then hit record a few
frames too late missing the loading sequence. They all appear at once... no loading sequence
at all... I'm no expert but shouldn't this equipment and a 30 FPS tape capture these frames as
they are drawn thus giving us a clear comparison to the MAME sequence and arcade vs his

Exhibit A - 000569
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 569/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

tape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Well **** me! So Billy Mitchell's engineers are the Twin Galaxies admin staff.

Is this true? Or pure speculation...? :/

02-24-2018, 03:36 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

[/COLOR][/FONT]

Unless he has stated otherwise, as far as we know Apollo Legend has not ever had access to
the original tape or any direct VHS tape copy for analysis. All digital conversions of these
tapes on the internet that we have examined appear to be potentially susceptible to not being
frame/field accurate to the original tapes and some frame loss / blending may have been
introduced. We will know more about this as we analyze the tapes we have and then compare.

In the KOK version in particular there is no way to know what was done or wasn't done to the
audio tracks. That version may very well have audio edits that are independent from the video
stream, as it very likely was placed into a DAW before ever going on a commercial DVD.
There is no way to know.

Quote:

Attachment 51373

In order to make sure that we dont get confused in our communication, I think it is important
that we outline what "edited" can mean.

Imagine a video tape cassette in your hand. On it is DK footage. By physically examining the
tape contents with proper equipment, you can absolutely determine if video was recorded in
one pass, or if there are multiple "edits" of the footage, where someone Exhibit
has recorded
A - 000570
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 570/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

something, hit PAUSE, then recorded something more, hit STOP, re-wound then hit STOP,
then recorded something over something else. This type of thing leaves some detectible
physical signatures on the tape.This would be considered "editing" on the tape itself. So that
is one way of describing an "edited tape."

Another way that "edited" might apply is if the source footage that was recorded on to the
tape was "edited" beforehand. This would result in a smooth and continuous single pass on
the recorded tape, which is very different than the scenario described above.

So if we go back to your statement where you say:

Quote:

shouldn't this equipment and a 30 FPS tape capture these frames as they are drawn thus giving
us a clear comparison to the MAME sequence and arcade vs his tape.

Everything presented in this dispute thread suggests that what you are saying is correct -
however all of this data in the dispute thread is based on frame accurate analysis of digital
copies of a direct feed and not on the characteristics of an actual direct feed analog VHS tape
recording. This is the first time we are looking at a DK VHS tape recording with field
accurate equipment, so it is possible that we may discover some key items in regard to what a
VHS tape actually winds up recording versus our expectation of what it should record. We
don't yet know the answer here, so we are making no assumptions. We agree this seems to
raise more questions, so we are definitely going to look hard at this.

So in any case, when we say that the tape we have does not look "edited" so far, what we
mean is that there appears to be no physical indication of tape editing (the first scenario -
imagine someone using 2 VHS recorders to "make" a performance.)

I hope that made sense.

02-24-2018, 03:47 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Neither the Donkey Kong CRT (e.g., Sanyo 20-EZV, Sanyo 20-Z2AW, Sharp XM-2001N)
nor your Sony Trinitron are "interlaced displays". A CRT display is neither interlaced nor
progressive; interlaced or progressive is determined by the nature of the video signal. The
video signal from a Donkey Kong boardset is progressive (~240p), as is the video signal from
nearly all other classic arcade games. There are a few exceptions, one of them being
Nintendo's Popeye (~448i), which uses the exact same Sanyo or Sharp monitor that Donkey
Kong does. Another exception is Bally Midway's Tapper (~480i), which uses the same
Exhibit A - 000571
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 571/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

standard arcade monitor that a ~240p game such as Bally Midway's Pac-Man uses, e.g.,
Electrohome G07. Also, most, if not all, classic home video game consoles output a
progressive video signal of approximately 240p, up to and including the original Sony
PlayStation.

Any ~15 KHz CRT (which includes ordinary CRT TVs like we all had in our homes in the
20th century, standard resolution RGB arcade monitors like were in nearly all classic arcade
games, and professional monitors such as your HR Trinitron) will sync to a ~15 KHz video
signal regardless of whether it is interlaced or progressive. ~240p @ ~60 Hz and ~480i @ ~60
Hz are both ~15 KHz video signals, and a CRT couldn't care less which one you feed it.
That's why the same CRT TV will display both the video signal from e.g., a Nintendo
Entertainment System (~240p) and an over-the-air NTSC broadcast (~486i) without issue.
Also, a CRT display has no mechanism to convert progressive to interlaced or vice versa, it
simply displays what it is fed.

Here's an illustration. This is a closeup picture of Super Mario Bros. from an actual NES via
its composite video output, being displayed on my ordinary RCA 32" standard resolution
CRT TV:

https://i.imgur.com/oDzGD54.jpg

And this is a picture of Super Mario Bros. from a Sega Dreamcast running an NES emulator
(composite video connection, same TV):

https://i.imgur.com/majXCav.jpg

The NES outputs a ~240p video signal while the Dreamcast is outputting a ~480i video signal
in this case (the DC is also capable of outputting ~240p and ~480p, the latter of which
requires a ~31 KHz, AKA: "VGA", monitor, but the software it's running has to support those
modes; ~480i is the default).

The telltale difference is the dark horizontal lines, most noticeable in the clouds and coin.
This is characteristic of ~240p video being displayed on a ~15 KHz CRT. People commonly
refer to those as "scanlines", but they are actually caused by the increased space between the
scanlines as compared to ~480i.

Another way to see the difference even more directly is with a Dreamcast game that supports
both ~480i and ~240p, such as Street Fighter III: Third Strike. By default (~480i), there is the
subtle "flicker" that's characteristic of interlaced video and there are no "scanlines". Enable
~240p mode and you will see the "scanlines" and the interlaced flicker is gone.

In the case of these recordings, allegedly done from a real Donkey Kong boardset (~240p) to
an RGB-to-composite converter, to a VHS VCR, I don't know if the RGB-to-composite
converter changes the format to interlaced or not. I know that Jrok's popular converter doesn't.
Here's a quote from Jrok:

Quote:

It won't change the format, if it's 240p it'll output 240p, it doesn't do anything like insert 1/2
line syncs for short-frame/long frame interlacing.

And I don't know what the VCR does to it exactly. VHS video is normally interlaced, but you
can certainly record a ~240p signal to VHS. I and many other people have recorded gameplay
from the NES and other ~240p consoles to VHS countless times, but I don't know if the signal
Exhibit A - 000572
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 572/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

that ends up on the tape is progressive or interlaced.

In any case, that might be something to look for. If the source was MAME, then the most
obvious recording chain would be: PC running MAME, outputting to a VCR via a "TV out"
video card. PC video cards with a standard definition "TV out" function (normally a
composite or S-video jack) output ~480i, because they conform to NTSC broadcast
specifications. On the other hand, if it was a real DK boardset going through an RGB-to-
composite converter, the converter was probably outputting a ~240p signal, unless the one
allegedly used does something fancy that Jrok's doesn't. By examining the VHS video, is
there any way to tell if the signal that was input into the VCR while it was recording, was
progressive or interlaced?

02-24-2018, 04:29 AM
rotunda

Ok, to clarify... this is what i mean by 'edited' ...

Here you can see your comparison:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

Here is a side by side comparison of those exact 3 frames with the YouTube version:

https://i.imgur.com/wGlUNAu.gif

This isn't showing what we need to see nor does the video you provided... It's not showing the
ladders and girders load sequence such as the ones on DK forum...

https://i.imgur.com/ZGY568Q.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/06RAEUu.gif

These frames are completely missing from your recording. Yet you clearly demonstrated how
accurate your equiptment is and how slowly you can go frame by frame ... So why are they
missing on the original tape?

1, it's been tapered with

2, its edited as i suggested above

As for the audio, point taken and I just read on DK forum that it has also been debunked there
for the same reason you stated.

Hope this clears things up.

02-24-2018, 04:35 AM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

Another image from Chris Gleed:

Attachment 51394

02-24-2018, 05:53 AM
The Evener

Quote: Exhibit A - 000573

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 573/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by rotunda

Ok, to clarify... this is what i mean by 'edited' ...

This isn't showing what we need to see nor does the video you provided... It's not showing the
ladders and girders load sequence such as the ones on DK forum...

1, it's been tapered with

2, its edited as i suggested above

As for the audio, point taken and I just read on DK forum that it has also been debunked there
for the same reason you stated.

Hope this clears things up.

I see what you're saying - but the same tape on YouTube does reflect MAME transitions at
other parts, like at the 53:01 mark:

https://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI?t=53m1s

If TG has the original tape, then perhaps a direct feed wasn't used at all, but a direct facing
camera recording?

02-24-2018, 06:05 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Ok, to clarify... this is what i mean by 'edited' ...

Here you can see your comparison:

This isn't showing what we need to see nor does the video you provided... It's not showing the
ladders and girders load sequence such as the ones on DK forum...

https://i.imgur.com/ZGY568Q.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/06RAEUu.gif

1, it's been tapered with

2, its edited as i suggested above

As for the audio, point taken and I just read on DK forum that it has also been debunked there
for the same reason you stated.

Hope this clears things up. Exhibit A - 000574

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 574/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

It's a three hour video, not every transition will be shown perfectly. especially if billy edited it.

02-24-2018, 06:18 AM
rotunda

If billy edited it then its void. You can't edit a performance.

A VHS recording for 3 solid hours be it long play, short play, whatever.. will capture the same
frames throughout as it's a solid 30/15 fps capture rate. I'm no expert but I did do media
studies in college years ago and actually used the hardware Jace is using so I am somewhat
familiar with VHS hardware.

At this stage my question is where did this tape come from? If from Billy or anyone close to
him I would be very weary of this tape given the time it's taken to actually surface. All the
others I've seen show clear rendering of the board and suddenly now this tape Jace has
doesn't?

Billy 1.047M Billy 1.05M

https://i.imgur.com/s5W3xkj.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/oH8IXcm.gif

https://i.imgur.com/jgEy8NJ.gif

Again, I stress I have bias to or for this score. I just find this very odd.

02-24-2018, 06:37 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

If billy edited it then its void. You can't edit a performance.

Billy 1.047M Billy 1.05M

https://i.imgur.com/s5W3xkj.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/oH8IXcm.gif

https://i.imgur.com/jgEy8NJ.gif

Again, I stress I have bias to or for this score. I just find this very odd.

We weren't shown that board transition with that score. We were shown a board transition that
exactly matches the tapes already presented.

02-24-2018, 06:46 AM
homerwannabee
Exhibit A - 000575
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 575/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Even if the video is 30 fps it should show board drawings that will prove it's either MAME or
Arcade. If all transitions skip the board drawings, than the odds are extremely likely that the
tape has been screwed with.

02-24-2018, 06:49 AM
rotunda

I'm not saying we were it was merely an example of how all his other scores (including the
score for the tape Jace apparently has, 1.05m) shows the transitions on boards and Jace's tape
does not.

If it's just this board which doesn't then please someone tell me how VHS recording at 30/15
fps can capture the rendering of a board on one board and not the other... as currently I see
zero reason for this to ever occur.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/attachm...8&d=1519260658

Doesn't matter which board it's on, this should be the same throughout the video at 30/15 fps
... It either spots the board loading or it doesn't.

02-24-2018, 06:50 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by homerwannabee

Exactly my point...

Even 15fps would spot it. That's 15 frames per second, a hell of a lot of frames. More than 1
frame per 100ms.

02-24-2018, 07:14 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

https://i.imgur.com/ZGY568Q.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/06RAEUu.gif

If Jace wouldn't mind, I'd like him to post a new jog analysis video on that 185000 transition
screen. I'd like to see how it looks compared to the frames presented here.

02-24-2018, 07:19 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Exactly my point...
Exhibit A - 000576
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 576/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Even 15fps would spot it. That's 15 frames per second, a hell of a lot of frames. More than 1
frame per 100ms.

VHS records ~60 fields per second (60,000 ÷ 1,001 to be exact). A field is every other
television line (TVL) of a frame. There are even fields and odd fields. Put an even field
together with its corresponding odd field and you get a full frame.

https://i.imgur.com/77a1reA.png

There is no 30/15 for VHS; it is 60/30 (~60 fields / ~30 frames per second).

02-24-2018, 07:44 AM
rotunda

Thanks for the clarification, as I say I'm no expert.

I just know that this should 100% be appearing in Jace's video. Especially when it's showing
in all of Bills other videos.

02-24-2018, 10:15 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Regarding your comment about "interlaced displays" - you are correct in your statements. I
was speaking in a shorthanded format and that caused confusion. I will be explicitly specific
in what I mean when discussing this stuff further. Apologies.

Regarding VHS tape. It is not designed to record and play back progressive signals. It stores
NTSC/PAL/SECAM/etc. which are interlaced formats. This is one of the reasons why the
inverter board is used to record a direct feed to a VHS tape recorder and the RGB signal is no
directly sent.

Quote:

Standard Composite and S-Video connections do not transfer progressive scan video images,
so any RGB-to-Composite converter must output an interlaced signal.

02-24-2018, 10:38 AM Exhibit A - 000577

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 577/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Ok, to clarify... this is what i mean by 'edited' ...

Here you can see your comparison:

This isn't showing what we need to see nor does the video you provided... It's not showing the
ladders and girders load sequence such as the ones on DK forum...

https://i.imgur.com/ZGY568Q.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/06RAEUu.gif

1, it's been tapered with

2, its edited as i suggested above

As for the audio, point taken and I just read on DK forum that it has also been debunked there
for the same reason you stated.

Hope this clears things up.

I think these are fair questions and we will certainly look at this. However, the absence of
these frames may not have anything to do with the tape being tampered with or edited. It
could also simply be a matter of those frames not having ever been transmitted by the
inverter, or recorded by the VHS recorder.

This is one of the many reasons why we have to look at the entire tape and all the transitions
contained within. If there is a variance in the nature of the the capture (or an edit) we will
figure out how/why that variance exists.

The animated images/gif above of the Billy performances are produced from digital copies
that have been captured by various methods (for instance the one on the left is the result of
pointing a camera at a CRT screen and recording at 30fps which can result in
loss/manufactured frames) so it is hard to know for sure that what we are seeing is the
completely correct data - But as part of our investigation we will identify all these moments
highlighted in the dispute on the tape itself and see what actually matches up.

The main thing to understand is that there is nothing magical about any of the frame stuff, and
we will be able to come to a determination for sure. The key is to be absolutely certain about
the baseline assumptions we are using to make determinations with. Wrong baseline
assumptions may lead to wrong conclusions.

Here is one question to investigate -

When looking at Billy's performance recordings that are currently on the internet, not all the
transitions within the same recording are identical. Why? They should be the same every
time. Any variance in transition indicates at least one of these things:
Exhibit A - 000578
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 578/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

1.) Frames have been lost during the digital capture

2.) Artificial frames have been created by the capture process (half/half transitional frames for
instance)
3.) The original tapes have exactly the same phenomenon.

If you are looking at a frame perfect recording, all the transitions would be identical with no
variance - it would have to be.

So some of the things we are looking at on the tapes themselves are these type of above
characteristics. If the tape is showing variance, we will need to know why. We will need to
know if that is a natural result of using that particular inverter on an original DK machine to a
VHS recorder, or if there is some other reason (like EMU recording).

It's tedious but not complicated and we will get to the bottom of this whole issue one way or
the other.

02-24-2018, 10:41 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Standard Composite and S-Video connections do not transfer progressive scan video images,
so any RGB-to-Composite converter must output an interlaced signal.

Yes, they can. As I mentioned before, most, if not all, classic videogame consoles up to and
including the Sony PlayStation, output a ~240p signal, and they do this variously over RF,
composite or Y/C separate (S-video). ~240p over RF, composite, or S-video is not in any way
an industry/broadcasting standard, but there's nothing preventing it from being done. CRTs
don't "care" either way, so console manufacturers could get away with non-standard video
signals back then. Modern digital displays are a different breed of cat altogether though,
which is why so many of the have problems properly displaying the video from a classic
console connected via composite. They are expecting ~480i but they are getting ~240p.

I showed an example picture where you can clearly see that the NES is generating a ~240p
(progressive) signal, and it is over the NES's standard composite video output.

Here is one reference:

Quote:

Composite, S-Video and RGB can carry both 240p and 480i signals (and as described in the
RGB Introduction section, RGB is the best of those methods).

https://retrorgb.com/240p.html

You can find a myriad of references by searching Google for 240p over composite.

02-24-2018, 10:48 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000579
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 579/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by The Evener

I see what you're saying - but the same tape on YouTube does reflect MAME transitions at
other parts, like at the 53:01 mark:

https://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI?t=53m1s

If TG has the original tape, then perhaps a direct feed wasn't used at all, but a direct facing
camera recording?

The tapes we have are definitely some kind of direct feed recording and not a mounted
camera. There is no monitor reflection, curve or any other technical indicators of a camera
capture process.

02-24-2018, 10:50 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

I stated this previously but you may have missed it:

Dwayne Richard sent the tapes. They did not come from Billy Mitchell.

02-24-2018, 11:16 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

I showed an example picture where you can clearly see that the NES is generating a ~240p
(progressive) signal, and it is over the NES's standard composite video output.

Here is one reference:

You can find a myriad of references by searching Google for 240p over composite.

Ah yes you are correct. However the FCC forbade TV stations from broadcasting in this
format, which is why I was focused on the standard definition. As far as we know there were
no RGB-to-240p inverter boards to be used with DK cabinets in 2010ish. There were only
Exhibit A - 000580
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 580/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RGB-to-NTSC ones.

At the very least we know for certain that Billy claims to have used a RGB-to-NTSC inverter
board, as an alleged picture was supplied to this dispute thread of the actual inverter board
used.

We will be reaching out to Billy at some point to acquire that specific inverter from him (or
whomever has it) for examination if possible.

02-24-2018, 12:31 PM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

But this is what is confusing me... The video of Billy standing over his own performance
clearly shows the board rendering in... so why doesn't your tape with this specialist
equipment? If a video camera can pick it up surely yours should too...? Transmitting this data
to digital looses data not gains... so why does your original tape show less than the video of
Billy as he was giving a speech.

Quote:

It's quite easy to check out. Compare your tape with this image from the 1.05m tape over at
the DK forum:

Attachment 51437

Now compare that rendering to your tape on the 185k score using your machine and we have
our answer. And if this isn't the same on your tape then something is very, very wrong.

02-24-2018, 12:47 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We do not yet have the 1,062,800 tape.

Yes we plan to let everyone see the full tapes that we have.
Exhibit A - 000581
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 581/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Nor will TG ever get it the 1.062 or DK jr tapes. Cause Billy and friends won't answer the
question who did he give to the tape to at TG in Aug. 2010. No one!! Or Todd! Because there
were two refs there and was a good enough strong arm.

02-24-2018, 12:50 PM
gavv

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

What you are most likely seeing is purely an instance where the timing of the start/end of
board video being generated versus the timing of the vcr drum to record the NTSC signal in
such a way that the full transition wasn't recorded. IT matches identically to that same
score/spot on the YT video originally referenced in the thread. Every single transition
matched with every single scoring point needs to be displayed/posted for any of the analysis
to even matter, and the exact choice of spot for Jace to show in the equipment demonstration
was rather poor imho. Should have shown one, then randomly/blindly fast forwarded to
another spot, and play to the next transition. That would have better kept questioners quiet
during the full process.

02-24-2018, 12:59 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

It's quite easy to check out. Compare your tape with this image from the 1.05m tape over at
the DK forum:

[/FONT][/COLOR]Attachment 51437

Now compare that rendering to your tape on the 185k score using your machine and we have
our answer. And if this isn't the same on your tape then something is very, very wrong.

This makes the most sense. Use the already heavily verified GIF's and the points at which
they are in the game and compare the tapes. There are several different scenarios posted by
you guys that show how a GIF at a certain point/score shows MAME. Jace should cross
reference those first and either find they are the same/different. If they are different, then this
Exhibit A - 000582
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 582/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

whole thing takes an entirely different tone. If any of them match up, it's legit. You only
blame a recording device for so much. If only one of them matches up its confirmed. I would
go from that point and watch the digital copy and compare it to the tape to make sure they are
in fact the same run.

This is what I would do and agree with this idea. Start with what we already know to be
MAME from GIFs, compare the tape at those to the GIFs. If a match, done deal. If none of
them match, then figure out why they don't or start checking the tape as Jace described by
looking at every single board transition.

02-24-2018, 01:07 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

TG website woes:

I can't read this wall post when logged in, but I can if I open it in incognito mode. I also can't
seem to start a dispute, as clicking the link to do so brings up a blank page in Chrome and
Edge.

My DK Junior MAME wall post was messed up anyway because I cut and paste things and
the images didn't make it over (I was viewing them on the local cache so I thought everything
was fine). It's been edited to include the images.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/the-eve...-junior-record

02-24-2018, 01:13 PM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

This makes the most sense. Use the already heavily verified GIF's and the points at which
they are in the game and compare the tapes. There are several different scenarios posted by
you guys that show how a GIF at a certain point/score shows MAME. Jace should cross
reference those first and either find they are the same/different. If they are different, then this
whole thing takes an entirely different tone. If any of them match up, it's legit. You only
blame a recording device for so much. If only one of them matches up its confirmed. I would
go from that point and watch the digital copy and compare it to the tape to make sure they are
in fact the same run.

I believe when Jace makes a decision, it'll be based entirely on the master tape and not the
copies posted on YouTube or clips from King of Kong. Other inconsistencies could be found
on the master tape that aren't present on the YouTube copies which would help strengthen the
case and help eliminate some of the grounds for appeal. I'm certain when a decision is made,
it'll be ironclad and backed up by a plethora of evidence sourced from the master tape and not
just a few that confirms the finding on the YouTube copies.
Exhibit A - 000583
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 583/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

02-24-2018, 01:16 PM
Welp

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

Here is a side by side comparison of those exact 3 frames with the YouTube version:

https://i.imgur.com/wGlUNAu.gif

This is the comparison between Jace's video and the digital video. They clearly match.
Everyone should keep in mind that the YouTube version's transitions are not all uniform, and
the VHS in TG's custody appears to be missing frames for reasons that are not currently
known. However, we will be able to determine if the "oil can problem" was caused by
MAME or a half/half frame.

02-24-2018, 01:26 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

It's quite easy to check out. Compare your tape with this image from the 1.05m tape over at
the DK forum:

[/FONT][/COLOR]Attachment 51437

Now compare that rendering to your tape on the 185k score using your machine and we have
our answer. And if this isn't the same on your tape then something is very, very wrong.

Exactly. I want so see what Jace's machine shows for that same spot in the footage. We could
clear this up RIGHT NOW if he would post it.

02-24-2018, 01:28 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

The 1.04 and 1.05 tapes are really complimentary evidence - it's relevant insofar as they were
previous world records and may illustrate a pattern of MAME abuse, but for the score under
dispute in this thread, there is only the videos recorded by those who attended the Big
Bang/IVGHOF announcement of Billy's new records, which coincidently included footage of
the DK Junior and DK tapes running on TVs at Billy's table - the only time they A
Exhibit were ever
- 000584
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 584/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

shown to anyone outside of Billy's group.

I think it's completely reasonable to focus on master tapes where they exist, but in the case of
1,062,800, such a tape was never turned over to TG. If it somehow surfaces and is willingly
turned over to TG, great, but I would hesitate to say that no decision can be rendered on the
basis of the three known recordings of the Billy's announcement and the examples of MAME
transitions contained within.

02-24-2018, 01:34 PM
ant3x7

Everybody should just have patience and let Jace build up his mountain of evidence from the
original masters. He’s had less than 24 hours with the $6,000 VHS equipment he
bought/rented/stole.

02-24-2018, 01:47 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This is great and provides a lot of information. However -

I would be very helpful if you could connect your composite output to a VHS recorder and
record 3 tapes:

1.) SP Speed
2.) LP Speed
3.) EP Speed

If you could then send those tapes to us for analysis and comparison it would be very useful.

Possible?

Jace - I have scoured my entire house, local thrift stores and checked Wal-Mart and Target
online, to be able to come up with more than the single VHS tape I have been using - a
recorded over Veggie Tales at that - and cannot come up with something to meet this request
in short order. I have ordered a 3-pack of new, blank VHS's off of amazon, and should have
them next week.

In the meantime, I want to do a test run and upload to youtube, which may get us a little bit
closer to what has been the basis of all of this. Which recording profile would provide the
most value in this preliminary effort? Any other criteria I should put on it - such as processing
when capturing from VHS to upload to youtube, or anything else other than straight
recording->60fps capture->youtube upload?

02-24-2018, 02:01 PM
thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

case and help eliminate some of the grounds for appeal. I'm certain when a decision is made,
it'll be ironclad and backed up by a plethora of evidence sourced from the master tape and not
just a few that confirms the finding on the YouTube copies.

I agree with every thing you have said and Jace has said with only one problem. It might not
be a master tape? So I think you have to use those videos from youtube since they were from
multiple sources, multiple devices, all showing the same result. I'm actually not to worried
about the tape in TG's possession. I believe it will show MAME as well. However, there is
that possibility it doesn't. Then what? You can't just throw out the youtube videos showing
MAME was clearly what was displayed on the TV's. Why would Billy even bother having a
legit tape then fake a score? Make a copy of a copy, done.

I'm not criticizing you for your argument because I agree, just going over all the possible
scenarios at this point.

02-24-2018, 02:02 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

It's quite easy to check out. Compare your tape with this image from the 1.05m tape over at
the DK forum:

[/FONT][/COLOR]Attachment 51437

Now compare that rendering to your tape on the 185k score using your machine and we have
our answer. And if this isn't the same on your tape then something is very, very wrong.

(Long post incoming. Apologies.)

Since this matter hasn't yet been clarified adequately, I feel I should step in. Let me begin by
reiterating my previous conclusion (which should be very easy for Jace to test) that the
recently-rediscovered Billy 1.05M tape is itself showing only 30fps gameplay,
downconverted, for whatever reason, from 60fps (or perhaps MAME was told only to
generate a 30fps video) by way of discarding every other frame. At the very least, this is what
is shown in the two full-length Youtube videos of said score, which is where the above GIF is
sourced. My conclusion about the true framerate of the DK gameplay in Jace's tape stems
from the fact that there is absolutely no evidence of the missing frames present in the video he
recently provided wherein he scrutinizes the tape frame-by-frame.

Now, with that having been stipulated, here is the short answer to the question about the
disparity in board transitions: Donkey Kong runs at 60fps, and it does not conveniently begin
board transitions on an even (or odd) frame every single time. If you're only seeing every
other frame of gameplay, as is the case with every specimen of the 1.05M score, then
sometimes you're seeing frames 1,3,5,7 of a transition, and sometimes you're seeing frames
2,4,6,8.

The proof is in the pudding. Here is the complete breakdown of how barrel transitions appear
in the 1.05M score as seen on Youtube:

00:00:37 Single frame, split 75%

00:04:39 Single frame, split 25%
00:10:28 Single frame
Exhibit A - 000586
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 586/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

00:16:35 Single frame

00:19:04 Single frame
00:24:01 Single frame
00:26:45 Broken beam, split 75%
00:29:03 Broken beam
00:32:01 Broken beam
00:34:43 Broken beam
00:37:07 Broken beam
00:39:53 Broken beam
00:42:10 Broken beam
00:44:16 Broken beam
00:47:24 Broken beam
00:49:52 Single frame
00:52:25 Broken beam, split 3%
00:55:29 Broken beam
00:58:00 Broken beam
01:00:37 Single frame
01:03:22 Single frame
01:05:53 Broken beam
01:08:22 Broken beam, split 10%
01:11:22 Broken beam, split 90%
01:13:57 Single frame
01:16:18 Single frame
01:19:54 Single frame
(death)
01:21:09 Broken beam
01:23:44 Single frame
01:26:21 Single frame
01:29:10 Single frame
01:32:00 Single frame, split 35%
01:34:23 Broken beam
01:37:00 Single frame, split 8%
01:40:17 Single frame
01:42:51 Single frame
01:45:53 Single frame
01:48:17 Broken beam
01:50:58 Single frame
01:54:01 Single frame
01:56:34 Single frame
01:59:17 Single frame
02:02:36 Single frame
02:05:14 Single frame
02:07:44 Single frame
02:11:10 Single frame
02:14:18 Broken beam
02:16:44 Broken beam
02:19:50 Broken beam, split 8%
02:22:38 Single frame
02:25:13 Broken beam
02:28:18 Broken beam
02:30:30 Single frame, doubled frame
02:32:17 Broken beam
02:35:03 Single frame
02:37:50 Single frame, split 85%
Exhibit A - 000587
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 587/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

"Broken beam" means the second long beam is visibly broken at a specific spot (as seen in the
above GIF). "Single frame" means the entire board appears in a single frame. "Split x%"
refers to an anomaly of the screen being split vertically with the left portion appearing one
frame ahead of schedule -- probably a quirk of the MAME version used, since the vertical
split is not straight from top to bottom in every instance.

Let's compare this to a MAME Donkey Kong score that is also presented in 30fps with every
other frame discarded:

MAME Donkey Kong World Record Dean Saglio 1,206,800 HD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnhihX0A1_8
---
00:00:15 Broken beam
00:04:25 Broken beam
00:10:25 Single frame
00:16:14 Single frame
00:18:53 Broken beam
00:23:38 Broken beam
00:28:27 Broken beam
00:31:12 Single frame
00:34:17 Broken beam
00:36:46 Single frame
00:40:10 Single frame
00:46:48 Broken beam
00:49:35 Broken beam
00:52:29 Broken beam
00:56:27 Broken beam
00:59:12 Single frame
01:02:55 Broken beam
01:06:36 Broken beam
01:09:39 Single frame
01:13:15 Broken beam
01:17:29 Broken beam

The "broken beam" in this version of MAME has a different appearance (identical to MAME
0.115 as shown in Xelnia's original post, whereas Billy's 1.05M broken beam matches
MAME 0.116 - 0.121). As before, some transitions show the broken beam, some don't.

Here is data from a 60fps MAME recording of Donkey Kong. I've taken the time to note the
very first frame we see any portion of the barrel stage.

Donkey Kong MAME 60fps Mame32Plus!0.100 https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=63hIsjyxAGA
---
00:00:25:06 Even
00:03:40:37 Odd
00:06:37:02 Even
00:10:03:50 Even
00:14:35:09 Odd
00:18:12:44 Even
00:22:05:25 Odd
00:25:36:35 Odd
00:28:54:53 Odd
Exhibit A - 000588
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 588/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

00:31:42:00 Even
00:35:17:50 Even

And finally, the 60fps direct feed video recently posted by Chris G.

Chris G direct capture via Nintendo Inverter Board and Composite Out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkjt17XiPIs
---
00:00:22:24 Even
00:01:31:57 Odd
00:03:06:12 Even
00:05:19:04 Even
00:07:52:18 Even
00:08:45:57 Odd
00:11:10:36 Even
00:12:13:14 Even
00:13:13:58 Even
00:13:41:39 Odd
00:15:45:24 Even
00:18:11:22 Even
00:19:16:15 Odd
00:21:13:40 Even
00:22:50:13 Odd
00:24:04:40 Even
00:25:53:29 Odd
00:26:50:00 Even
00:28:21:29 Odd

In short, MAME faithfully reproduces Donkey Kong's unpredictability as to whether board

transitions begin on an even or odd frame, and this phenomenon, when combined with the
removal of every other frame, generates the discrepancy that has inspired some recent
confusion. In every 30fps Youtube video of MAME Donkey Kong, one should be able to find
examples of both types of barrel transition: Single frame and multiple-frame.

02-24-2018, 02:12 PM
gavv

Why all the concentration on just the barrel stages? What are the results at looking at every
single transition?

02-24-2018, 02:17 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

In the meantime, I want to do a test run and upload to youtube, which may get us a little bit
closer to what has been the basis of all of this. Which recording profile would provide the
Exhibit A - 000589
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 589/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

most value in this preliminary effort? Any other criteria I should put on it - such as processing
when capturing from VHS to upload to youtube, or anything else other than straight
recording->60fps capture->youtube upload?

Yes VHS tapes are hard to come by these days!

Please take your time and lets do things right. You help in this is appreciated and will provide
valuable 3rd party data.

Since we are really wanting to look at a VHS recording, to see what really happens when it is
done, the VHS tapes are the most important item - however here are some things that you can
try that could be helpful:

This will be helpful.

02-24-2018, 02:22 PM
Welp

The video being 30fps makes a lot of sense as a theory. Here's my question: is it actually
possible to generate a 30fps video using the direct feed setup Robert talked about?

02-24-2018, 02:40 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Yes VHS tapes are hard to come by these days!

Please take your time and lets do things right. You help in this is appreciated and will provide
valuable 3rd party data.

1.) Record yourself playing DK at 720p 60fps - try to get all the transitional level screens,
then upload it to Youtube.
2.) Play that recording on a CRT monitor
3.) Point a camera at that CRT monitor that is playing that recording and film it at 23.98 (24)
fps, then upload it to youtube.
4.) Point a camera at that CRT monitor that is playing that recording and film it at 29.97
(30)fps, then upload it to youtube.
5.) Point a camera at that CRT monitor that is playing that recording and film it at 59.94
Exhibit A - 000590
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 590/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

(60)fps, then upload it to youtube.

This will be helpful.

Not sure I have the tech necessary for all of this. Will a 15khz CRT be okay? A camera with
24fps and 60fps may also prove to be the challenge. If you recall, my samsung s8 recording at
1080p/60 was struggling. That's the only 60fps mode it offers, and that's the best I have for
60fps. But, I'll see what I can do.

02-24-2018, 02:45 PM
Welp

If it's not possible for a direct feed to do 30fps, then either the explanation of the setup is
wrong or it is MAME. If it's MAME - perhaps he recorded a playback of the game with a
utility like fraps before recording it onto a VHS? It would make some sense, as a 60fps video
might have been a prohibitively large file.

02-24-2018, 03:11 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

If it's not possible for a direct feed to do 30fps, then either the explanation of the setup is
wrong or it is MAME.

I should here point out that there's no question about whether the gameplay on the 1.05M tape
is MAME. Every board transition does one of two things, either a broken beam (broken the
same way every single time) or not. The specific way this broken beam appears is not only an
identical match for MAME, but absolutely never manifests in any known actual direct feed or
indirect video of Donkey Kong, including Chris G's recent 60fps direct. Meanwhile,
direct/indirect videos of Donkey Kong perform barrel transitions with unique but 100%
reliable visual quirks which never manifest in the 1.05M video. When I was obtaining the
exact frames from Chris G's video, this became blatantly apparent. It is likely because all of
this is so obvious that the gaming community at large has been able to form a solid
conclusion.

Nonetheless, Jace is obligated to give the matter as thorough an examination as can be done,
in order to nip precisely these kinds of potential obfuscations in the bud. This means figuring
out the nature of Billy's recording, and whatever else comes along, regardless of how
conclusive the evidence may already be.

In short, think of the MAME question as having been answered in brief by the DKF's removal
of Billy's scores, and answered at length by TG's pending verdict.

02-24-2018, 03:52 PM
Welp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

I should here point out that there's no question about whether the gameplay on the 1.05M tape
is MAME. Every board transition does one of two things, either a broken beam (broken the
same way every single time) or not. The specific way this broken beam appears is not only an
identical match for MAME, but absolutely never manifests in any known actual A
Exhibit direct feed or
- 000591
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 591/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

indirect video of Donkey Kong, including Chris G's recent 60fps direct. Meanwhile,
direct/indirect videos of Donkey Kong perform barrel transitions with unique but 100%
reliable visual quirks which never manifest in the 1.05M video. When I was obtaining the
exact frames from Chris G's video, this became blatantly apparent. It is likely because all of
this is so obvious that the gaming community at large has been able to form a solid
conclusion.

In short, think of the MAME question as having been answered in brief by the DKF's removal
of Billy's scores, and answered at length by TG's pending verdict.

I agree that the evidence is pretty much overwhelming here, but I also see value in giving
benefit of the doubt. I am just pointing out that it's basically another piece of evidence that the
recording could not have been done in the manner claimed if DK is unable to output at 60fps.

02-24-2018, 03:53 PM
Welp

Sorry - unable to output at 30 fps.

02-24-2018, 04:20 PM
YesAffinity

And for my next trick....

MAME outputting to a Nintendo cab via Gonbes GBS-8100 VGA-to-CGA converter and
standard Nintendo inverter board.

https://youtu.be/ye85etBPjmw

Additional notes:

1) The Gonbes GBS-8100 can simultaneously output to multiple displays, and I was
outputting to the cab and a LCD TV in parallel.
2) Using MAME .122, it was necessary to invoke the -flips AND -flipy arguments to achieve
a correct orientation on the Sanyo 20EZ
3) Hardware walk-through at the beginning of the video. GBS8100 is power cycled at the end
of the video to demonstrate the signal being lost and returning, for added confidence.

02-24-2018, 05:08 PM
thegamer1185

It's easy to know what mode the tape was recorded on. Firstly, how long was the entire play of
Billy's score on the tape and what brand/type of tape did he use? If it's a T-120 they can record
for roughly 2 hours on SP, LP for roughly 4 hours, and EP 6 hours. T-160 SP is 2hr 40 min,
LP 5hr 20 min, and EP 8 hr. T-180 tapes are 3hr, 6hr, 9hrs. TG could use this to figure out
what mode the tape was done in very easily. If it is a T-180 tape and the recorded part ends
with over 2/3 of the tape remaining on the right reel to be recorded on you know he recorded
at the very lowest quality of EP. 9 hours of total possible recording time in EP mode, only 3
hours recorded means a crap load of tape remaining on the right reel. Simple. If there is
essentially no tape left on the right reel, you know he used the highest quality recording
Exhibit mode
A - 000592
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 592/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

of SP. Do that for the rest of them to figure out what mode he actually used. This will save a
crap load of time and researching other modes that have no relevance in the dispute.

Figure out type of tape, how much tape is left after the recording part ends, you figured out
the mode used.

02-24-2018, 09:35 PM
FBX

By the way, just wanted to express my thanks and appreciation for this new system of
resolving record disputes. When I first joined TG back in 2001-2, nothing like this would
have been even entertained as anything other than slander or 'jealousy'. But this is why it's
very important to have full video documentation of world records and archiving them. You
never know when something comes up and you need to go back to the tapes to get to the
bottom of possible shenanigans.

So while there's a lot of people bashing TG over the history of corruption, this is the right
direction. Like I told people 15 years ago when I first started complaining about Todd's
records: It's not about ego, it's about having a fair playing field. Nobody should be above that
field, not even the most celebrated competitors.

02-25-2018, 02:32 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

This is actually a very interesting point and shows how valid the YouTube videos actually
are... Looking forward to seeing the comparison between them and the exact score where
transitions appear on the master tape.

02-25-2018, 06:19 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Standard Composite and S-Video connections do not transfer progressive scan video images,
so any RGB-to-Composite converter must output an interlaced signal.

I am sorry, but this is patently incorrect. To turn a progressive 15KHz signal into an interlaced
15KHz signal requires either a scaler (frame buffer) or a time base corrector. I know of no
RGB to (S-)video encoders that do either, and certainly the encoder that Robert Childs has
referenced does not contain the required components for such a transformation.

VGA to CGA scalers like the well-known Gonbes scalers use a frame buffer because they
must be able to convert 31KHz (and higher) signals to 15KHz, and in doing so are able to turn
the signal interlaced. It is also clear simply from looking at the PCB layout that the board is
much more complex than a simple video encoder like a Jrok or the two Exhibit
bit encoder
A -that
000593
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 593/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Robert Childs used.

The Sony CXA2075 used in the Jrok or the Analog Devices AD725 encoder chip used in
most other inexpensive solutions leaves the sync signal untouched and only encodes the RGB
into Y/C and CVBS signals. When fed with a progressive sync signal, this will produce
technically invalid NTSC. However, you have to consider that the NTSC signal coming out of
a VCR is often technically invalid as well, because of the mechanical nature of reading a tape,
the sync signal will vary to a much greater extent than the half scanline offset of a progressive
signal. The analogue circuits inside a VCR or CRT television have broad tolerances that are
not bothered by such minute "violations" of the NTSC spec regarding sync.

02-25-2018, 07:15 AM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

I was about to reply to Jace Hall's reply to me (post #1497), but after reading your post, I
don't need to, because you said everything I was going to say, and more. I will add that Jrok's
device has been around since at least the early 2000s (his FAQ for it was last updated in 2003
- https://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB-FAQ.html), and I'll repeat that Jrok himself has
already said:

Quote:

It won't change the format, if it's 240p it'll output 240p, it doesn't do anything like insert 1/2
line syncs for short-frame/long frame interlacing.

For the record, Jrok isn't just the seller, but also the designer of that device, and he's also
designed a lot of other hardware as well. He posts often on the KLOV forums, and he, along
with others such as Mark Spaeth and Clay Cowgill, is among the most technically proficient
people in the arcade community.

And just because something is called an "RGB-to-NTSC" converter doesn't mean its output is
Exhibit A - 000594
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 594/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

by-the-book NTSC. Jrok calls his device an RGB-to-NTSC converter, but "NTSC" is being
used loosely, i.e., as shorthand for a ~15 KHz composite video signal, which is compatible
with a standard NTSC TV and other devices.

02-25-2018, 08:47 AM
YesAffinity
1 Attachment(s)

^This is true. I had some lengthy conversations with JROK when I was first getting my direct
feed setup going, and he offered that newer TV's won't always like the output from his board,
and most new capture cards won't like it. From my experience, the composite output works
with everything. The component output is hit or miss. The component output will not work
directly with my LCD TV or my Avermedia C127 capture card, but going through a video
processor, either one likes the processed HDMI output from the video processor just fine.

Separate note - I had to delete the previous upload of the "MAME outputting to DK cab"
video. @Sqrlmonger pointed out that I had names and addresses visible in the video. I have
edited the video to avoid that folly, and re-uploaded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--
XmPOnwvWU

I looked briefly at some of the board transitions, and interestingly, the sliding door effect
exists. This is 30fps capture with my samsung s8, and it captured it at least once. So, it seems
this effect is not only a function of the DK board set (which we see from direct feeds from the
game board), but also a function of the 20EZ circuitry? Interesting stuff, if I do say so.

02-25-2018, 08:51 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

]
The sliding door effect should go away if you enable vsync in mame.ini.

02-25-2018, 09:19 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

]
The sliding door effect should go away if you enable vsync in mame.ini.

You mean the "waitvsync" option? It is currently set to 0. I will try it set to 1, but probably not
til next weekend. The cab is back against the wall at this point, and I've wrenched my back
enough for one week messing with that cab.

02-25-2018, 10:11 AM
starcrytas
Exhibit A - 000595
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 595/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Off topic, but I found that the DK Jr. screen transitions on this video to match up with MAME
screen transitions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHSoe74TDc

02-25-2018, 10:20 AM
BenMullen
First principles

It seems like this thread has wandered into a new type of phase recently wherein a new video
has surfaced that does not show the MAME transitions that can be seen in Mr. Mitchells score
announcement. It seems to me that there is a tacit assumption here that this tape is now THE
source material which must be scrutinized, and the only material.

I'm not sure i get the logic of that. If Billy Mitchell can be seen standing behind MAME
gameplay and announcing it as his record, must we not use that tape?

To me it seems like we remain in the same place we have been for some time. Billy Mitchell
needs to show that some process, camera effect etc could "convert" his PCB play into MAME
gameplay.

If this score is upheld without meaningfully answering to that evidence, it would undermine
TG itself.

Alternatively, maybe I'm missing something?

02-25-2018, 11:00 AM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMullen

I'm not sure i get the logic of that. If Billy Mitchell can be seen standing behind MAME
gameplay and announcing it as his record, must we not use that tape?

To me it seems like we remain in the same place we have been for some time. Billy Mitchell
needs to show that some process, camera effect etc could "convert" his PCB play into MAME
gameplay.

If this score is upheld without meaningfully answering to that evidence, it would undermine
TG itself.

I certainly find this new tape interesting, but its recent discovery also strikes me a suspect
quite frankly. somehow, at some point, for this score to be upheld it MUST be shown that
camera or fps or conversion etc effects can convert PCB to MAME.
Exhibit A - 000596
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 596/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Alternatively, maybe I'm missing something?

Jace only showed the first few seconds of the tape, so the video he uploaded is hardly
something to use as evidence until the full video is uploaded. It's also been mentioned here
that the first screen transition of the youtube version of the same footage also doesn't show a
MAME transition. @Asterra outlined it really well a few pages back:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post952350

02-25-2018, 04:58 PM
erockbrox

I would like to add some comments:

I've been keeping up with the social media aspect of this situation on channels such as You
Tube and watching other peoples reactions to this ordeal. One common notion that people
assert this that Twin Galaxies cannot be trusted anymore and that all of the past records
should be removed. There have even been mentions that another organization should keep
track of video game records going forward.

My response to this is that this type of situation is not unique to Twin Galaxies. There are
many other high score record keeping databases and leader boards and while Twin Galaxies
claims themselves as the official record keepers, I can tell you that for some specific games
there are other leader boards which are probably more accurate in representing the top players
rather than Twin Galaxies.

For example, there is a specific site and database for F-Zero racing times. That community is
most likely more familiar with that game and probably tracks that game better than any other
database. The reason why is because they specialize in these specific games.

With that being said, a lot of people on social media question if the integrity of Twin Galaxies
still holds up due to the recent disputes, but what these same people are forgetting is that
cheating and/or the removal of invalid scores is something that exists in all leader boards.

If you look at any score keeping site and any other leader board, they also have the EXACT
same issues and circumstances to deal with. So I disagree with those who question the
integrity of Twin Galaxies. The fact that Twin Galaxies is being proactive about these
situations actually shows that it does have integrity.

I'm writing this more or less as a response to this You Tube video below, but what they are
saying in this video is a common theme in other videos too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfCXM3mWROM

02-25-2018, 06:00 PM
Robert.F
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

So has this been decided as a

Exhibit A - 000597
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 597/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

[COLOR=#FFFFFF
!important]Is this a valid
dispute?[/COLOR]
Are the votes in ?

02-25-2018, 08:16 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

So has this been decided as a

[COLOR=#FFFFFF
!important]Is this a valid
dispute?[/COLOR]
Are the votes in ?

RTM REPLY - pointless to ask as Jace has already informed us where he has reached with
his VHS tape analysis...the purchase of a specialized machine with which to hopefully shed
some new light on the matter, or at least to confirm what we already know (or do not).

No sense in speculating at this point as his team is in the home stretch of their investigation.
We just have to wait, and if others wish to speculate on other social media sites, so be it.

02-26-2018, 07:11 AM
Robert.F
more mame

More testing on Billys DKjR showing its mame https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIcE-

v7lvUc

02-26-2018, 07:38 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMullen

Exhibit A - 000598
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 598/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I'm not sure i get the logic of that. If Billy Mitchell can be seen standing behind MAME
gameplay and announcing it as his record, must we not use that tape?

To me it seems like we remain in the same place we have been for some time. Billy Mitchell
needs to show that some process, camera effect etc could "convert" his PCB play into MAME
gameplay.

If this score is upheld without meaningfully answering to that evidence, it would undermine
TG itself.

Alternatively, maybe I'm missing something?

thats not what i got out of this. I got, that if you take the originals, you can find one part in
particular where theres not enough info to know if its mame or arcade. Now, if just one part
showed arcaded, and the rest showed mame, too bad, the fact it showed arcade just once
would make me question the entire idea that you can distinguish between mame and arcade.
However, finding one part that of the tape that only shows frames where mame and arcade are
identical and does not include and of the parts where you can tell the two apart, that seems to
mean nothing. I would've liked to see more of the tape, at least focus on a section that means
something.

Take everything about on face value though, I'm not implying anything negative of Jace. He
bought the $6000 VCR, he's been giving updates, he's been reasonable. So although I think
the choice of section of tape to show was odd due to it meaning nothing, I'm still happy to
wait to give thisenough time to be done right

02-26-2018, 07:55 AM
maximumsteve
1 Attachment(s)
Apollo Legend at my Arcade Event the other night...

Attachment 51599I want to thank everyone who came out the other night to my "Retro
Arcade Night" in Fort Lauderdale and contributed, with your admission and
attendance, to the cause of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas GO Fund. Great
atmosphere and a lot of fun was had.
We give a special thanks to "Apollo Legend" Youtube footage man for taking the time
to come to the event, support the cause, and watch Billy Mitchell play Donkey Kong
throughout the course of the night and get to meet myself, Robert Childs, Carlos
Pineiro and discuss in a friendly and objective manner, many of the questions and
aspects to the DK game footage that has been under scrutiny. Bill wanted me to relay
that it was a pleasure for Bill to introduce Apollo to his family, show Apollo the DK
machine, the inner workings in the back of the machine and field questions from him
and his friend regarding the controversy, along with Robert and Carlos chiming in
with their answers and information to his questions.
It is greatly appreciated that Apollo took the time to come out and experience our
Exhibit A - 000599
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 599/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

event and get to know each other and have fun, which is the true spirit of what
gaming and community should be. He also came dressed like Bill, which was
hilarious!! and here are some pics of Bill meeting Bill, lol. And Robert....

02-26-2018, 09:14 AM
ant3x7

Some quotes from Apollo Legend's Twitter https://twitter.com/apollo_legend_?lang=en:

Quote:

He's so slippery, not an easy guy to nail down

Quote:

They all swamped me with technical information that I wasn't prepared to refute. I went into it
impulsively and underprepared I'll be going over it all as soon as I get the film of what
happened.

Quote:

I'm still waiting for the video to get sent over to me. Then I'll need to do research into what
they told me. Their plan was to confuse me with a bunch of technical information I couldn't
refute so now I need to go through everything and find out exactly what's true and what isnt

Quote:

I was wrong, this is not their plan [ant3x7 note: referring to tweet about doctoring the original
tape to make it look like arcade]. Their plan is to find some way to manipulate a real arcade
cabinet to look the same as MAME and then say that's what happened with Billy's tapes. I'll
go into more detail in my next video.

Quote:

Billy Mitchell played me so hard. Video when I get home

The plot thickens..

02-26-2018, 09:33 AM
LMDAVE

Yeah, I see the laptop in the background with Windows Movie Maker playing, and DK splash
screen. Given the angle of the screen (which is already rotated left) looks like they're using an
over-the-shoulder camera to demonstrate something. I'm sure we'll find out soon.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL215.../413791553.jpg

02-26-2018, 12:05 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Bill wanted me to relay that it was a pleasure for Bill to introduce Apollo to his family,
show Apollo the DK machine, the inner workings in the back of the machine
Exhibit A - 000600
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 600/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I thought Billy was not tech savvy or had any knowledge of any of this stuff...?

02-26-2018, 01:32 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

There was no "choice of section of tape." The tape just was where it was when I put it in at
that moment. My goal was to only demonstrate the ability of this high end VCR to move
through the tape discretely and miss absolutely no visual information. The point was to help
people see for themselves that we are using all the tools necessary to look at this issue. There
had been some questions raised as to why we did not just use a basic VCR to do this. That's
all.

We continue to work on this investigation.

02-26-2018, 01:56 PM
FBX

I heard from Apollo that he actually got Robert Childs to admit on video the board swap was
staged. The man had no choice but to admit it. The blue cap image I posted couldn't be
denied.

Case closed on that act to deceive the public.

02-26-2018, 02:01 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

I heard from Apollo that he actually got Robert Childs to admit on video the board swap was
staged. The man had no choice but to admit it. The blue cap image I posted couldn't be
denied.

Case closed on that act to deceive the public.

Exhibit A - 000601
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 601/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

some billy earthers on facebook were already putting for the idea everything was stage -- as if
thats a defense. Outside of all the obvious issues with deception, what ever happened to the
overhead camera billy claimed existed? Why would you reenact if a real event when the
actual event was supposedly captured on camera? I mean really, i really want to understand
this line of reasoning from their camp. Billy does the score for real. Its not just on direct feed
but an overhead camera as well. Then, even though everything is all on film, for some reason
they feel the need to reenact the board swap that just happened hours ago, and they dont even
bother to use both original boards that were supposedly used but only use one? You can tell
these are people who are used to not being called out and have no idea how to put together a
convincing lie

02-26-2018, 02:04 PM
Prophecyrob

If TG tries to manipulate footage to prove Billy is legit how are they gonna explain the
splicing audio (which was proven) from one of Billy’s 1M games?

If TG is planning on saying Billy played on real Arcade hardware and the hardware somehow
miraculously looks like MAME, they better have credible footage of them showing us how
this happened.

But I caution Jace on all this. TG is taking a thumping online and in the community. If he
falsifies any evidence that gets presented to is and gets caught it is game over for TG holding
scores for everyone.

Worth mentioning again - audio on Billy’s gameplay was spliced. A direct feed off an arcade
board would never do this. Splicing MAME sections together would.

02-26-2018, 02:33 PM
karljobst

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

If TG tries to manipulate footage to prove Billy is legit how are they gonna explain the
splicing audio (which was proven) from one of Billy’s 1M games?

If TG is planning on saying Billy played on real Arcade hardware and the hardware somehow
miraculously looks like MAME, they better have credible footage of them showing us how
this happened.

Worth mentioning again - audio on Billy’s gameplay was spliced. A direct feed off an arcade
board would never do this. Splicing MAME sections together would.

None of Billy’s runs have game audio. You are misinformed. I suggest you become better
informed before you throw around any more crazy accusations against TG or Jace.

02-26-2018, 02:46 PM
thegamer1185

Quote: Exhibit A - 000602

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 602/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

If TG tries to manipulate footage to prove Billy is legit how are they gonna explain the
splicing audio (which was proven) from one of Billy’s 1M games?

If TG is planning on saying Billy played on real Arcade hardware and the hardware somehow
miraculously looks like MAME, they better have credible footage of them showing us how
this happened.

Worth mentioning again - audio on Billy’s gameplay was spliced. A direct feed off an arcade
board would never do this. Splicing MAME sections together would.

Not sure if there is a single truth in this entire post.

TG isn't proving anything other than either confirming or dismissing evidence proven false.
TG is reviewing the tape to see if it matches the evidence showing Billy used MAME,
submitted by Jeremy Young. So your entire first sentence would be correct in opposite land.

TG is analyzing the video tape to confirm what every piece of evidence against Billy is
showing, he used MAME. TG is taking a thumping from Todd Rogers and Billy Mitchell
supporters or people stuck in their old ways and aren't actually coming to TG or DKF to
check out what is actually happening. Word of mouth is often inaccurate.

As for your last sentence which contradicts your first few statements, this is why TG is
analyzing the tape to see if it is indeed a direct capture feed or MAME.

02-26-2018, 02:59 PM
foddon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

If TG tries to manipulate footage to prove Billy is legit how are they gonna explain the
splicing audio (which was proven) from one of Billy’s 1M games?

If TG is planning on saying Billy played on real Arcade hardware and the hardware somehow
miraculously looks like MAME, they better have credible footage of them showing us how
this happened.

Worth mentioning again - audio on Billy’s gameplay was spliced. A direct feed off an arcade
board would never do this. Splicing MAME sections together would.

Someone earlier in this thread synced the missing audio with the video from the same time
and there were extra frame(s) presumably due to the transfer method (I believe). The audio
inconsistencies make sense in this context.

You seem to have a big misunderstanding of what TG is actually doing Exhibit

as well. I'm
A -assuming
000603
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 603/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

this is from Apollolegend's information since he seem to be conflating TG with Billy

supporters and not recognizing that TG is a different group of people now. I'm not sure why
he hasn't taken the time to understand TG's CURRENT position and perspective but it's not
surprising given leaps he tends to make in his videos.

All that said, I'm not trying to take anything away from the actual evidence, which is
compelling enough without throwing in misinformation and baseless accusations.

02-26-2018, 04:00 PM
rotunda

Quote:

TG is taking a thumping online and in the community.

He's right about that though... Everywhere I'm looking TG is getting hit hard. I'm not saying
it's right but it just is.

Really not doing Twin Galaxies reputation any favours all of this.

02-26-2018, 04:44 PM
Riatoju

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

I heard from Apollo that he actually got Robert Childs to admit on video the board swap was
staged. The man had no choice but to admit it. The blue cap image I posted couldn't be
denied.

Case closed on that act to deceive the public.

It's true, he was too lazy to go to his car to get the DK board from what I heard from several
sources. I'm dead serious.

02-26-2018, 05:01 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

It's true, he was too lazy to go to his car to get the DK board from what I heard from several
sources. I'm dead serious.

This is getting ridiculous now. Some of these excuses are verging on insanity at this point.

At least he's starting to admit that he's been up to no good though. We now know he willingly
falsified evidence, plenty good reason to knock off his score(s).

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Well **** me! So Billy Mitchell's engineers are the Twin Galaxies admin staff. A - 000604
Exhibit
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 604/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I'd like to ask this question once again, is this true? Or pure speculation...? Is there other
evidence coming from Billy or is it just TG?

In my opinion you aren't doing TG's reputation any favours if it's been TG all along in the
pipeline to provide the evidence Billy has been going on about.

02-26-2018, 05:21 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

I thought Billy was not tech savvy or had any knowledge of any of this stuff...? [/FONT]
[/COLOR]

RTM REPLY - any good attorney makes sure that they are intimately familiar with the
nuances of most scientific evidence introduced at trial. Sure, there are experts that testify, but
the attorney needs to be well versed enough to understand what questions to ask, and how to
apply the information either for or against the defendant depending on which side of the table
they are on.

In school we crammed for exams. This is no different here. Someone's back is up against the
wall on technical grounds so you can be quite sure that he is going to get a crash course in
these nuances whether he was familiar with them before or not.

02-26-2018, 05:24 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

It's true, he was too lazy to go to his car to get the DK board from what I heard from several
sources. I'm dead serious.

Thanks for this Hector - with the recent revelation that Robert admitted the footage of
Boomer's arcade was actually staged, this has gone from parody to farce.

Too lazy - left it in the car. Well, until we get a direct quote from Billy, I guess he can claim
the sources are wrong. Here's what he said during his Empire TV interview about the lengths
he went to in order because he was dead serious about avoiding controversy.

"I was the only one who ever took the Donkey Kong board that I had - because with the
movie that came out, there was all the questions about “Oh, a Donkey Kong, a double Donkey
Kong, a slow Donkey Kong, a Donkey Kong with gummy substance, the Donkey Kong that
smelled, a Donkey Kong that came from a bad guy, and altered this,” and none of that
interests me, but I wanted to make sure I wasn’t caught up in the same scenario. I took the
Donkey Kong board, and I sent it off to Nintendo, I sent it to Nintendo, and the senior
engineer, who said he knew me, who was very kind, agreed to certify it, and when I did the
high score [at Boomer's], it got sent back to him to be certified that it was still the same board.
Two different times it went to him.”

02-26-2018, 05:25 PM
Exhibit A - 000605
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 605/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

thegamer1185

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

This is getting ridiculous now. Some of these excuses are verging on insanity at this point.

At least he's starting to admit that he's been up to no good though. We now know he willingly
falsified evidence, plenty good reason to knock off his score(s).

I'd like to ask this question once again, is this true? Or pure speculation...? Is there other
evidence coming from Billy or is it just TG?

In my opinion you aren't doing TG's reputation any favours if it's been TG all along in the
pipeline to provide the evidence Billy has been going on about.

It was a joke. TG has had nothing to do with this dispute. DKF actually started the dispute
and removed the score already. They brought it to TG. Billy is actually the one who put TG in
the spotlight as having the original copy of the tape. I think TG is handling this dispute 100
times better than it did the Dragster dispute. They are letting people provide the evidence.
Billy made the statement that TG had the original and what I and many others assume is that
he didn't think they kept them. As it turns out, TG does have one of his scores. One of the
scores that has been viewed as MAME in every single video showing the score. TG is now
analyzing the tape to either confirm whether the evidence against him is in fact accurate or
inaccurate.

As for my joke. Billy's corner said they had a team of engineers that where putting together an
evidence package proving he didn't use MAME and his scores are legit. I think it may have
been Walter Day himself that said that, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, the joke
was that after TG found the original copy of the tape and are going to analyze it either
confirming Billy used MAME or confirming what Billy has been saying, TG became the
"engineers" by accident.

TG isn't fabricating anything for Billy or the TG community.

02-26-2018, 05:44 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

I heard from Apollo that he actually got Robert Childs to admit on video the board swap was
staged. The man had no choice but to admit it. The blue cap image I posted couldn't be
denied.

Case closed on that act to deceive the public.

That's an amazing admission. I don't need to remind anyone that on the same day as Billy
announced his two world records at the Big Bang/IVGHOF, Robert posted three videos,
including the infamous board swap video, to bolster the claim of Billy's live arcade
achievements with "real time footage" of his visit to Boomer's arcade. For 7 years, the swap
video was presented as "proof" of these achievements without qualification despite the
Exhibit A - 000606
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 606/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

curious decision of Robert to dub over his discussion of swapping the PCBs with classical
music. I suppose Robert might as well confirm that yes, the video depicting "moments after
DK high score" - that accidentally catches a glimpse of DK Junior on the screen - was staged
as well.

Perhaps Billy should return to his earlier explanations and declare that yes, all three of his
million plus scores betray MAME use and that these scores were done for "entertainment
purposes only," thereby saving Jace and TG staff countless additional hours confirming and
cross-referencing footage.

02-26-2018, 07:45 PM
JJT_Defender

After you Analyzing the Video of Billy Mitchell's Arcade Donkey Kong Score of 1,062,800.
Will you Let Twin Galaxy Members View it in it's entirety from the Beginning to the End?

Not just Give us The findings But Let Us Twin Galaxy Members see the Whole Complete
Video.

Thank You
God Bless You

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We continue to work on this investigation.

02-26-2018, 08:00 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

RTM REPLY - this curiously seems to be a parody of comments made during the filming of
Exhibit A - 000607
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 607/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

KoK coupled with actions taken to certify Abdner's "Ms Pacman" board associated with his
first-submitted WR on the title.

But if the comments are real then the similarity is remarkable !!

02-26-2018, 09:13 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJT_Defender

After you Analyzing the Video of Billy Mitchell's Arcade Donkey Kong Score of 1,062,800.
Will you Let Twin Galaxy Members View it in it's entirety from the Beginning to the End?

Not just Give us The findings But Let Us Twin Galaxy Members see the Whole Complete
Video.

Thank You
God Bless You

Jace said that he would allow everyone to examine the tapes that TG has:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post952114

02-27-2018, 03:29 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - this curiously seems to be a parody of comments made during the filming of
KoK coupled with actions taken to certify Abdner's "Ms Pacman" board associated with his
first-submitted WR on the title.

But if the comments are real then the similarity is remarkable !!

Sorry, I neglected to include a hyperlink to Billy's interview comments for everyone's

reference:

https://youtu.be/6JSzpjo8Oe0?t=31m13s

02-27-2018, 09:39 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJT_Defender

After you Analyzing the Video of Billy Mitchell's Arcade Donkey Kong Score of 1,062,800.
Will you Let Twin Galaxy Members View it in it's entirety from the Beginning to the End?

Not just Give us The findings But Let Us Twin Galaxy Members see the Whole Complete
Video.

Thank You
God Bless You Exhibit A - 000608
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 608/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

TG don't have the tape for the 1.062, they have earlier tapes.

02-27-2018, 10:10 AM
Prophecyrob

Quote:

Originally Posted by foddon

You seem to have a big misunderstanding of what TG is actually doing as well. I'm assuming
this is from Apollolegend's information since he seem to be conflating TG with Billy
supporters and not recognizing that TG is a different group of people now. I'm not sure why
he hasn't taken the time to understand TG's CURRENT position and perspective but it's not
surprising given leaps he tends to make in his videos.

All that said, I'm not trying to take anything away from the actual evidence, which is
compelling enough without throwing in misinformation and baseless accusations.

At 4:15 in the below vid Apollo shows the wonky audio from one of Billy's 1M gameplay in
Audacity. Is his evidence to be believed?

As an outsider looking in on this controversy, all I can do is scrutinize evidence presented. It's
exactly like record submissions....and so far Billy's camp has not provided evidence. To me,
the xelnia, Apollo stuff is damning.

https://youtu.be/234Y76_3YPE

02-27-2018, 10:32 AM
Robert.F
Billy freekin out

this from the second kong off i think , Richie was testing out the stream days before the even
and billy was there , i zoom in on the stream to watch billy play ,,, he looks frustrated :)
having a hard time playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNTlRydUejU

02-27-2018, 01:23 PM
foddon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

At 4:15 in the below vid Apollo shows the wonky audio from one of Billy's 1M gameplay in
Audacity. Is his evidence to be believed?

https://youtu.be/234Y76_3YPE

Exhibit A - 000609
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 609/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The missing audio is to be believed, yes. However, the reason it's happening seems to be due
to the way the video was converted (or something of the sort) since during this exact time
there are video frame(s) out of place. If I have time I'll go back and find the post but this is a
big thread. If he was relying on splicing rather than MAME playback it would make little
sense that this is the only place it would appear.

02-27-2018, 01:51 PM
foddon

Ok, after a little bit of searching I found what I was thinking of (it was posts on dkforums
linked in this thread). Turns out the video on youtube with the missing "spliced" audio was
uploaded in 2017 but an upload of the same performance from 2016 did not have the out of
place frames or missing audio.

Post by Raven analyzing the video during audio cut out is on the middle of this page:
http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055.180

Post by JCHarrist on the following page links the older video without the issue.

02-27-2018, 02:40 PM
datagod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmMIMsq-HxY

Sometimes over analyzing video tapes can make you see the strangest things. Like a former
Referee turned amateur wrestler.

02-27-2018, 03:45 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by foddon

Thank you. I was starting to get a little frustrated that people were getting sidetracked by what
is not only easily explained as sloppy tape duplication, but also completely unnecessary given
what MAME already made possible.

"Splices" indeed... People hung up on that word are mostly coming from the speedrunning
scene where it has become a famous tell for cheaters who aren't very good at hiding their
cheats. MAME makes it possible to generate a complete video from start to finish with
nothing as tacky as splicing remotely necessitated. The guy who made the King of Con
Youtube video certainly did no favors when he provided his "evidence" of what was literally
just someone futzing with the audio inputs during tape duplication.

02-27-2018, 09:36 PM
DustPuzzle
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000610
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 610/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

At 4:15 in the below vid Apollo shows the wonky audio from one of Billy's 1M gameplay in
Audacity. Is his evidence to be believed?

https://youtu.be/234Y76_3YPE

Hi everyone! I've been following this thread since right after xelnia dropped his fantastic
analysis, and I've found it to be simply fascinating reading. Recently I've seen a few
misconceptions creep into this thread and I've felt compelled to sign up to Twin Galaxies and
try my best to clear a few up. This is the first one.

When Apollo first posted this video it seemed to add new evidence to the pile mounting
against Billy Mitchell. Strangely, though, it seemed to be something that had escaped the
notice of people who had been scrutinising the video down to the level of frame-by-frame
analysis. A whole section was duplicated and the sound waveform was completely flat.

The truth is that very soon after it became apparent that Apollo was not using the same video
as Xelnia and others. Though it shows the same performance of the 1,050,200 score it is in
fact a duplicate of the original tape submitted as evidence of that score. The original version
has no duplicated section or flat waveform. The most likely scenario is that the tape Apollo
had referenced in his video was a duplicate of the original made by a Twin Galaxies referee to
send to other referees for their viewing. The repeated section and flat sound waveform was a
result of duplicating the VHS to DVD as explained by syscrusher over at Donkey Kong
Forums:

Quote:

When I got the tape in Jan. '08, I had the VHS recording transferred to DVD, but it spanned
over 2 discs. It's possible the anomaly happened at the end of disc 1/beginning of disc 2 if this
was uploaded from those discs.

There is plenty wrong with Billy Mitchell's videos, but this particular issue is not one of them.
It was introduced long after the fact and there is nothing to answer for.

Which brings me to the next common misconception, coincidentally brought up very recently:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJT_Defender

After you Analyzing the Video of Billy Mitchell's Arcade Donkey Kong Score of 1,062,800.
Will you Let Twin Galaxy Members View it in it's entirety from the Beginning to the End?

Not just Give us The findings But Let Us Twin Galaxy Members see the Whole Complete
Video.

Thank You
God Bless You

The 1,062,800 video. The object of this disputed score. It cannot be found. Certainly Twin
Galaxies does not have it, and because of that it cannot be shared with anyone. The only
Exhibit A - 000611
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 611/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

concrete evidence of it even existing is the video footage of Billy Mitchell presenting and
discussing it at the IVGHOF. There's no credible chain of evidence for who has had
possession of it. Surely Billy Mitchell must have at least a copy, if not the original master, but
it is clearly not in his best interests to share it now. Importantly for this dispute, the video did
not have to exist for Billy's score to be accepted by Twin Galaxies at the time. His score was
accepted under the banner of being verified by two Twin Galaxies referees, the first of which
is generally accepted to be (the now disgraced) Todd Rogers, with a number of possibilities
for the second referee including Morningdove Mahoney (Todd Rogers' spouse, tarred by the
brush of nepotism), or former TG owner Pete Bouvier (who, sadly, has passed away and
cannot contribute to this dispute), among others.

However, the footage of the IVGHOF event does show a screen transition, which brings me
to the final misconception.

This is a somewhat esoteric point on the nature of evidence and logic, but bear with me - I
believe it's important to this dispute. People seem to think that the ways in which the board
transitions are generated frame-by-frame PROVE either arcade play or MAME play. Xelnia's
original analysis does not contend this, his contention is that the presence of a certain pattern
of transition frames PROVES MAME play. I would suggest that even this is imprecise. The
ways these screens load that we're all now familiar with - if it is completely verified - proves
not-arcade play. The distinction is subtle but important. Xelnia and company's extensive work
has shown that an arcade machine should never produce that certain screen load, but
importantly he also shown that later versions of MAME produce something very similar to a
genuine arcade machine. Normal "shuttered" loading doesn't prove the footage originates
from an arcade - the only way a video can do that, I would contend, is to go through the
careful process described elsewhere of recording the interior and whole exterior of a cabinet
and all of its connections as well as the gameplay in a single uninterrupted take.

It remains to be seen if other recording conditions can create the piecemeal rendering that
Xelnia contends indicates MAME play. Jace and his staff are doing this important work with a
great deal of thoroughness, which is very impressive.

I'd like to point out a couple of technical things to do with the verification of Xelnia's work.
First, to my eye, the most telling part of the differences between the rendering is in the final
two frames - specifically if the oil barrel shows up either before or after the bonus score, as
below:

Attachment 51832

I can think of a scenario that might cause the arcade rendering to appear like the MAME
rendering when recorded by a separate video camera. The questioning of the frame rates used
to film screens was on the right track, but misses the real culprit - shutter speed, and
particularly the use of a rolling shutter. The chatter in this thread about camera frame rates has
operated under the assumption that a global shutter is in use capturing an entire frame at once,
only high-end, specialist-use cameras with a CCD sensor typically use a global shutter. In the
vast majority of consumer video cameras (as well as mobile phone cameras) a rolling shutter
is used with a CMOS sensor which scans down (or up, or across) an image for the duration of
a single frame. The result of this that you can get a temporal anomaly where the first part of a
recorded frame is 'older' than the later parts.

If the rolling shutter was recording a screen playing Donkey Kong and it was synchronised
with a change in the screen's frame partway through recording its own from from top-to-
bottom, then it could conceivably show a frame much like the MAME example above where
the 'old' part of the frame is the top where the bonus score box hasn't been rendered yet, and
Exhibit A - 000612
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 612/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the 'new' part of the frame is the bottom where the oil barrel has just been freshly rendered,
while in reality the bonus score box was rendered just before, or on the same frame as the oil
barrel. This would only be an issue present in video camera footage, not in direct feed
footage. The ways around this would be to use either a 60fps camera with a global shutter, or
a camera capable of a shutter speed (and ideally frame rate) double that of the game's frame
rate (~1/120th of a second and 120fps is my understanding for NTSC).

02-27-2018, 11:50 PM
Asterra
3 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustPuzzle

It remains to be seen if other recording conditions can create the piecemeal rendering that
Xelnia contends indicates MAME play.

In actuality, we're just waiting for the "all evidence presented" version of the verdict. Xelnia's
evidence speaks for itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustPuzzle

First, to my eye, the most telling part of the differences between the rendering is in the final
two frames - specifically if the oil barrel shows up either before or after the bonus score, as
below:

Indeed? As you note yourself, there are indirect means which could generate this sort of
anomaly. Not that it matters in the slightest, since we happen to have "direct feed" tapes at our
disposal, conveniently negating such concerns.

My focus is on what I consider to be the smoking gun -- The uniquely broken-off second long
beam, as visible in Xelnia's original post:

Attachment 51840Attachment 51841Attachment 51842

As elaborated in this post, the videos of Billy's 1.05M score exhibit this precise anomaly
(particularly that lip sticking out at the end of the beam) every single time, notwithstanding
the transitions that are out of sync due to the footage being 30fps. The arcade, meanwhile,
literally never does, let alone 100% of the time across dozens of instances. And not to put too
fine a point on it, but unlike the oil drum / timer discrepancy of your focus, this item is simply
incontrovertible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustPuzzle

Already covered by Jace on page 115 of the thread. And, again, not relevant to "direct feed"
footage.

Exhibit A - 000613
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 613/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I'll add that at some point in the future, Billy may elect to release something he calls his tape
of the 1.062M score, or something effectively equivalent. But the brutal reality about that
hypothetical scenario is that 1) he will already be known for having used MAME, i.e.
cheating, and 2) it is very easy to make MAME output look like arcade output. Give me
Billy's IMP recording and After Effects and I could do it. It would count for nothing.

02-28-2018, 02:34 AM
DustPuzzle
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

I've already noted that the issue I'm talking about wouldn't (couldn't) be present in direct feed
footage. Be prepared for the eventuality that Billy Mitchell's camp will claim that the footage
used isn't actually direct feed, but turns out to be recorded with a video camera, because that
could get him off the hook. It is literally the case for the 1,062,800 score being disputed. I
believe that Jace and Twin Galaxies' methodology here will prepare them well for that
scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

My focus is on what I consider to be the smoking gun -- The uniquely broken-off second long
beam, as visible in Xelnia's original post:

Attachment 51840Attachment 51841Attachment 51842

Forgive me if I'm not seeing what you're seeing, but the broken second beam seems a little
ambiguous to me and a lot like Xelnia's test footage on a 60fps camera phone:

Attachment 51859

I believe that the broken beam in this shot is caused by the rolling shutter on a camera phone,
which although it is recording at a matching frame rate to the screen is out of sync by a
fraction of a frame and displaying something that isn't being rendered to the screen. A
multiple of the framerate and matching shutter speed is required to ensure at least one whole
frame is captured per rendered without temporal artefacts from a previous frame, regardless
of the synchronisation of the camera and the display screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Exhibit A - 000614
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 614/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Already covered by Jace on page 115 of the thread. And, again, not relevant to "direct feed"
footage.

As I mentioned, Jace only talks about the framerate of the camera, which though related to the
shutter speed and the effect of a rolling shutter is only part of the story and the latter hasn't
been covered here yet. Here's some more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter

02-28-2018, 02:41 AM
DustPuzzle

I'd just like to point out that I'm not aiming to defend Billy Mitchell here. On the measure of
all of the evidence I think he's done and dusted. All of his scores being generated in MAME
explains the rest of the circumstantial evidence, such as the absurdly off-curve scoring, the
reliance on referees of ill repute, the staged videos at Boomers, the lack of any 3rd party
recordings of the record performance. I would just like to ensure that the crux of the evidence
- Xelnia's analysis - is ironclad and will withstand any foreseeable technical challenge.

02-28-2018, 03:13 AM
J.C. Harrist

This is the result of extensive testing shot at 120 FPS with a GoPro Hero Silver 4 of all
Donkey Kong transitions on both arcade and MAME .106.

The TKG4-14 board was connected to a Mike's Arcade Nintendo to JAMMA adapter then to
a Gonbes 8220 RGB to VGA adapter fed to 2 separate LCD monitors. The small LCD was
for reference as the game was being played while 19" LCD was being shot by the GoPro. The
goal was to remove the CRT from the equation as the scanlines at these shutter speeds make
interpreting results difficult.

https://i.imgur.com/YLzTtcJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uoJBQl5.jpg

The MAME setup is a homemade cabinet with a circa 2010 PC running MAME version .106.

https://i.imgur.com/4ggiJbt.jpg

Here is all 4 transitions shot at 720P 120 FPS Narrow and played back side by side at 1/100th
speed.

Exhibit A - 000615
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 615/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSsDBPjT1d8

Even at 120 FPS there is still "ghosting" effects that can cause things from a previous or later
frame to display faintly but the differences between arcade and MAME are very apparent.

MAME draws the board faster in every case and there are key "fingerprint" frames that are
absolutely unique to each platform.

The barrel board key frame is this girder pattern which everyone should be familiar with by
now. Arcade will always show 5 girder segments and MAME shows 3 with the "Kong" girder
extending all the way to left side of the screen.

https://i.imgur.com/vgJ3gJM.jpg

On the pie boards the easiest identifier is the two upper long ladders. Arcade draws one at a
time while MAME draws them simultaneously.

https://i.imgur.com/8urVyFn.jpg

The elevator board is similar to the pie board in that arcade draws the long ladders one at a
time and MAME draws them together. Other obvious differences as well.

https://i.imgur.com/eczstjG.jpg

On the rivet boards, arcade draws the right side ladders first and MAME draws them all but
the lower right at the same time.

https://i.imgur.com/DGcptiw.jpg
Exhibit A - 000616
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 616/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

These results are 100% repeatable and screen and camera orientation make no significant
difference.

02-28-2018, 04:02 AM
Asterra
2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustPuzzle

Dismissing for the nonce the simple fact that such a claim would be patently indefensible for
reasons I confidently feel are beneath explanation, any argument attempting to pass the extant
videos as A) somehow actually Donkey Kong or B) somehow not specifically MAME is
going to have to explain why every transition looks just like MAME. Not "a little" like
MAME, but pixel-perfect from top to bottom. Not one transition, not a few transitions, but all
transitions during a video that lasts several hours. I'm going to take it for granted that Billy is
savvy enough not to waste his time on something so perfectly hopeless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustPuzzle

Forgive me if I'm not seeing what you're seeing, but the broken second beam seems a little
ambiguous to me and a lot like Xelnia's test footage on a 60fps camera phone:

Your hangup is that you keep diverting to camera footage specimens which have nothing
whatsoever to do with the evidence in Jace's possession. Understand that even though the
dispute concerns Billy's final score, the inquiry concerns the scores for which there exist
serviceable bodies of evidence -- as opposed to solely the assurances of a disgraced referee --
and once the matter is officially settled on those scores, that is the end of that.

What you're looking for is underscored here:

Attachment 51870

Incidentally, here is what an actual Donkey Kong outputs as its first frame, with 100%
reliability (via Chris G's direct feed capture):

Attachment 51873

The next frame after this has every beam drawn except for part of the lowest, also with 100%
reliability.

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000617
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 617/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by DustPuzzle

As I mentioned, Jace only talks about the framerate of the camera

Jace gave all the information that laymen forumgoers needed to identify what was going on,
specifically pointing out the diagonal line phenomenon which can occur. Then I also gave a
plainly illustrated expose of the same issue (five minutes too late) on the same page. Is it
really that important that neither of us gave Wiki links?

02-28-2018, 06:55 AM
omega175

What you're looking for is underscored here:

Attachment 51870

Incidentally, here is what an actual Donkey Kong outputs as its first frame, with 100%
reliability (via Chris G's direct feed capture):

Attachment 51873

The next frame after this has every beam drawn except for part of the lowest, also with 100%
reliability.
[/QUOTE]

This is as if the game gives Billy Mitchell "the finger." lol

02-28-2018, 01:17 PM
DustPuzzle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

I'm not sure it's my place or yours to determine the weight of any particular piece of evidence
on the final outcome, and the fact remains that the only extant footage of the score in question
is camera footage. Whether it's the deciding factor, a smaller piece in the ensemble, or
irrelevant to the dispute is up to Jace and Twin Galaxies to decide. It's up to everyone to
ensure a complete understanding of each piece of the evidence.

02-28-2018, 02:24 PM
The Evener

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000618
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 618/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by DustPuzzle

Thank you for your participation and extensive review of the technical evidence. I agree
wholeheartedly, and yes, it's important to marshal a complete understanding in order to
properly assess any counter-claims by Billy/supporters. But thus far, Billy hasn't attempted to
refute Xelnia's original analysis with technical evidence, since it's clear by now that there isn't
any to offer. To return to your earlier point, if Billy or Robert Childs attempted a strategic
reversal to claim "sorry, we were wrong, we used a camera rather than a direct feed to record
the 1.06 million score," such a move would be rightly ridiculed and eliminate any remaining
credibility. There appears to be more than ample evidence assembled by Jace and other
contributors that demonstrate that a camera recording of a game (or a camera recording a
game playing back on video) can reliably capture MAME signatures/transitions from MAME
use as well as authentic arcade game transitions when playing an original arcade game.
Therefore, when confronted with MAME signature transitions that are found in all videos of
Billy's high scores, one can conclude that MAME was used.

02-28-2018, 03:46 PM
skquinn

Since there is a tape of the 1.06M+ game, it should be judged on its merits in determining the
legitimacy of the record. Now, the previous tapes may say a lot about BM's overall character
and integrity, especially next to his statement that he's "never played [DK] on MAME". In
light of the fact one (or both) of those attempts was/were obviously played on MAME based
on the analysis I've seen, I will certainly wonder if BM is telling the truth about any of his
future records and what else he might have lied about. Credibility is tough to build and easy
to lose.

Also, I do wonder why it has taken so long for this tape to surface, but that's tangential to its
legitimacy as decided by TG HQ.

02-28-2018, 04:02 PM
awesome

I was asked by TG, Walter specifically, to watch the 1.05M tape from Bill and act as a referee
even though my position at the time was member of the rules committee and technical
advisor. I own my own DK machine, nearly 50 arcade machines of my own, world records on
games, I have seen Bill play live in front of me at 2 different events (ACAM 2003 and
CGE2003). I have never seen a live kill screen in person except for Steve Weibe's at ACAM
in 2005.

I sent Jace information as to my receipt of the 1.05M tape/DVD, what I did with it, my filed
report (or at least an earlier draft of it), and my thoughts on what I saw. I will note I rejected
the score based on video tape guidelines at the time but the rules allowed acceptance without
video evidence based on a Senior Referee witnessing the score, which did occur.

I've given Jace my thoughts in a PM. He is free to repost any portion of what I sent him as he
sees fit. I would request to have my personal phone number removed from the report that was
present at the bottom along with my e-mail address. However the rest is free to be shared.

Exhibit A - 000619
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 619/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I do not wish to become entangled in any arguments for or against said score at this time. I
felt it was necessary to share what I had with Jace/TG, since I was directly involved with at
least one of the questioned scores, including my own personal copy of several scores (which
Jace now has access to at least 2 of these I believe). I was never involved in the 1.06M score
in any way and do not have a copy of that game.

I am not often on TG as of late. I've been trying to get up to date on this and the Todd Rogers
situation but honestly have not had the ability to find enough time to come up to speed to the
level needed to make a personal decision either way for either situation. I'm unsure I will ever
have the time to sink into this that is needed and until I do I'll likely try to stay neutral. Feel
free to ask any question you may have of me. This might be one of a handful of times on the
TG site in years. Not sure I'll see any PMs but I believe I received e-mail notifications if any
arrive. Jace is also free to give me a call to discuss any points he wishes.

Good luck on a difficult job everyone.

02-28-2018, 09:44 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

What you're looking for is underscored here:

Attachment 51870

Incidentally, here is what an actual Donkey Kong outputs as its first frame, with 100%
reliability (via Chris G's direct feed capture):

Attachment 51873

The next frame after this has every beam drawn except for part of the lowest, also with 100%
reliability.

This is the proverbial 'smoking gun' of MAME usage in Billy's tapes. This one point above all
others CANNOT be explained away by any sort of taping method, copy of a copy, output
feed, etc. This behavior can ONLY happen on MAME and NEVER happens on original
hardware. This is why I have asked Jace to place post this particular segment with his new
machine's frame-by-frame review. He has not done so, but I believe it's because he already
has viewed it, knows it nails the coffin shut on this case, and is waiting to use it as part of the
final verdict.

That 'finger' on the girder effectively screams out "Billy used MAME", and there's no getting
around it.

02-28-2018, 11:20 PM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by skquinn

Since there is a tape of the 1.06M+ game, it should be judged on its merits in determining the
legitimacy of the record. Now, the previous tapes may say a lot about BM's overall character
and integrity, especially next to his statement that he's "never played [DK] on MAME". In
Exhibit A - 000620
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 620/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

light of the fact one (or both) of those attempts was/were obviously played on MAME based
on the analysis I've seen, I will certainly wonder if BM is telling the truth about any of his
future records and what else he might have lied about. Credibility is tough to build and easy
to lose.

Also, I do wonder why it has taken so long for this tape to surface, but that's tangential to its
legitimacy as decided by TG HQ.

There isn't tape of the 1.06m score, TG have the 1.05m score. It didn't really take that long to
appear, there were thousands of tapes for people to wade through to find the one they have
now.

03-01-2018, 01:24 PM
Dwayne Richard
question about the tapes

How did i edit some evil representation of his scores? Lying about that tells you something.

One challenge to bill is simply play to a million points using level 3 girder on the barrel board
to group 12 -16 barrels, up to 4 blue ones with the hammer smash and get his million points.
It cannot be done playing like that in any shape or form?! The qualitative evidence of game
play chosen has to have been done using mame save state so he could finish the barrel boards
playing that way!?

It cannot be done. Again he did not know how to get a million points at that time and he did it
the best way he thought playing style, but the irony is the grouping barrels at the top was the
way to go but he never knew enough to exploit that technique which is common game play
now. He was under pressure to perform for king of kong and could not do it so he cheated.
Rob is one of bill's lifelong friends he would cover for him because they are business partners
to sell classic games.

One thing about the dk jr. Marky Keihl brought his wr to big bang and was ignored. Bill's
max on dk jr is 1.3. He doesn't know about the jumping technique on marios hideout that
dean,mark and myself discovered jumping backwards and using the joystick to get points for
extra jumps. it is more common now but jr maybe has 15k left to scab for 1.4 is close to max.
without that 1.3 would be max. That is why he is only around 1.3 on his dk jr mame tape.

dwayne

03-01-2018, 01:37 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwayne richard

How did i edit some evil representation of his scores? Lying about that tells you something.

It cannot be done. Again he did not know how to get a million points at that time and he did it
Exhibit A - 000621
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 621/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the best way he thought playing style, but the irony is the grouping barrels at the top was the
way to go but he never knew enough to exploit that technique which is common game play
now. He was under pressure to perform for king of kong and could not do it so he cheated.
Rob is one of bill's lifelong friends he would cover for him because they are business partners
to sell classic games.

dwayne

if it makes you feel any better they know how stupid the "dwayne did it" lie made them look
and their new strategy is to try to figure out an arcade performance might possibly film as
mame. it can be difficult to keep up, the strategy keeps shifting, the excuses keep
contradicting themselves but they were ridiculed so heavily for "dwayne did it" and "the
donkey community is a bunch of cheaters too for not using original buttons" that those two
angles havent been repeated in some time

03-02-2018, 08:08 PM
erockbrox

I can understand if Billy cheated on MAME for the King of Kong movie. To be honest, it
made the documentary more interesting, however Billy should have eventually beaten the
cheated score legitimately. But it turns out that he didn't and that he just kept on cheating
using MAME. Now it has finally caught up with him.

I would like to restate myself from earlier in the thread. If Billy had beaten his cheated scores
legitimately then this very thread would quite possibly would have never happened. New
scores replace old scores and as long as Billy's current score was legit then there wouldn't
have been a dispute made possibly.

03-02-2018, 08:37 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

RTM REPLY - don't forget the 1.014M submission from Aug/04...that one has yet to be
subjected to the same level of scrutiny as the 1.047M, 1.05M and 1.06M performances.

While I did annotate to an extreme degree what he accomplished on a per-stage basis, this
was also a no-sound performance and I was never considered as possibly being a MAME-
based submission. But due to the level of annotation performed it might be possible to
determine his percentage of high-point blue barrel/fireball/etc hits contrasted to his peers. I've
Exhibit A - 000622
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 622/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

already made these data files available to almost two dozen interested gamers including a few
DKF participants, so maybe one of those players can see what they can come up with.

The point being, you stated he might have cheated for the KoK film...the 1.014M pre-dated
that and even before KoK as a concept was on the drawing board.

03-02-2018, 10:42 PM
lexmark

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - don't forget the 1.014M submission from Aug/04...that one has yet to be
subjected to the same level of scrutiny as the 1.047M, 1.05M and 1.06M performances.

While I did annotate to an extreme degree what he accomplished on a per-stage basis, this
was also a no-sound performance .........

The point being, you stated he might have cheated for the KoK film...the 1.014M pre-dated
that and even before KoK as a concept was on the drawing board.

Thanks, Rob. That's interesting. I had a little theory in my head that maybe the KoK
producers may have been party to helping him fabricate the scores (1.047 / 1.05 / 1.06)
...BECAUSE....what's the use of depicting a rivalry when one of the players (Mitchell) isn't
capable of ACTUALLY being a rival?

Rob, do you know/remember if the 1.014 score was direct capture or by camera?

john

03-03-2018, 04:44 AM
RTM

I believe that it was direct feed as I do not remember there being either a "sideways" vantage
point, seeing the edges of a bezel or seeing indications of his arm/hands at work

Here's what I tracked, and as always anyone interested in the source files send me a PM with
your E-MAIL and I can provide the EXCEL source files for both Bill's 1.014M and Steve's
1.006M

BARRELL
300 points - 541
500 points - 55
800 points - 30

CONVEYOR
300 points - 15
500 points - 26
800 points - 11

Exhibit A - 000623
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 623/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

SUMMARY
557,700 - barrel stages
143,000 - elevator stages
157,700 - conveyor stages
156,000 - rivet stages

MAX SCORES
Barrel - 15,200 (17-5)
Elevator - 7,800 (12-4)
Conveyor - 9,700 (14-2)
Rivet - 11,400 (6-6)

03-03-2018, 06:27 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Here's what I tracked, and as always anyone interested in the source files send me a PM with
your E-MAIL and I can provide the EXCEL source files for both Bill's 1.014M and Steve's
1.006M

If you can link to a public read-only Google Doc then that will be as good as an Excel file, but
publicly viewable. :)

03-03-2018, 08:41 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

If you can link to a public read-only Google Doc then that will be as good as an Excel file, but
publicly viewable. :)

RTM REPLY - don't know how to do that, but if anyone is interested in doing this by all
means please do so...just drop me a PM and I will send the necessary files

03-03-2018, 11:57 AM
J.C. Harrist

Upon closer examination of the 1.05M tape, it appears to me that the game was paused when
the recording was started.

This is the standard Donkey Kong attract mode transition into the title screen. Note that after
Jumpman dies and does his death tumble, the attract screen transitions into the title screen
where the DONKEY KONG logo is immediately flashing red and blue. It flashes red every
other frame 24 times before returning to solid blue for the remainder of the screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIb7VINxTao#

Exhibit A - 000624
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 624/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Now take a look at the start of the 1.05M tape. As the DONKEY KONG logo comes into
view, it is solid blue for 42 frames before it starts flashing , and then only flashes 15 times.
This would seem to be a clear indication that the game playback was paused when the
recording started and unpaused 1.4 seconds later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMDtKU6tty8#

03-03-2018, 12:05 PM
YesAffinity

Behold, VHS tapes. Montgomery Ward NOS apparently, lol.

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/0..._130013.md.jpg
https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/0..._130017.md.jpg

03-03-2018, 12:09 PM
YesAffinity

@Jace Hall , it seems my VCR can do SP and SLP, but no other speeds. I will do a tape of
both and send them off.

03-03-2018, 12:20 PM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - don't know how to do that, but if anyone is interested in doing this by all
means please do so...just drop me a PM and I will send the necessary files

I dropped you a PM and you sent me the files, and here are the Google Doc links :)

DK 1M Article

DonkeyKong_WR

Tommy Doyle Story

DK_Arcade_SW_985K

DK Bill vs Steve 1M

DK Statistics Bill 1014400 Exhibit A - 000625

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 625/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

DK Statistics Steve 1006600

DK Statistics

DK_SW_947200

DK_SW_985000

03-03-2018, 02:36 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

This is a good observation. I have confirmed that the same thing happens in the other Youtube
video of the same score:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&t=34s

This iteration of the score, while lower quality (due to both being a camera recording of a TV
and being 240p), is nonetheless of a much higher-generation copy of the master recording,
making the beginning seconds considerably easier to discern. The phenomenon of the title
screen having evidently been paused might reasonably be explained away as the person on
duplication duty electing to freeze-frame their source before beginning recording on the
target, but such things are never digitally perfect on VHS -- not even when you have hardware
like Jace's over the top JVC monster -- and in the end there are zero tells to suggest that this
was the culprit, as the above video's clarity enables one to discern.

Looks like another for the pile. Jace should be able to easily check for this anomaly on his
master tape of this score.

03-03-2018, 02:46 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I believe that it was direct feed as I do not remember there being either a "sideways" vantage
point, seeing the edges of a bezel or seeing indications of his arm/hands at work

What a shame that not even so much as a handful of minutes of the 1.014M score exist for
scrutiny. That's probably all we'd need. The little we do know about the score strongly
suggests it was MAME generated in a hurry to secure the one-million milestone while it was
under threat from Steve Wiebe.
Exhibit A - 000626
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 626/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If there's any justice, once Billy's scores are universally disqualified, Wiebe will get the
congratulations he's been denied for almost a decade, for truly being the first to break
1,000,000, by the "rules" or otherwise.

03-03-2018, 03:35 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

Upon closer examination of the 1.05M tape, it appears to me that the game was paused when
the recording was started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIb7VINxTao#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMDtKU6tty8#

@Jace Hall and co., will look at the original I assume for this, but if this youtube video was a
copied VHS tape of the original, it would make sense for the pauseing. For someone to press
pause on the "Playback" VHS deck, while ensuring the (copy) recording VHS deck was
rolling and was recording before unpausing the "playback" VHS deck. That would explain,
the still image of blue donkey kong text at the beginning of the "copied" tape. That is how we
made copies back in the day, as a paused video would at least produce a signal for the
recording VHS deck to accept and allow recording.

But if the extra frames of blue DK text is on the original tape from the direct capture, then it is
likely to appeared to be paused from some other playback device or computer. Which would
not be a original recording of a performance. Then we can draw our conclusions and
assumptions

03-03-2018, 03:57 PM
Welp

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000627
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 627/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Asterra

Wiebe submitted the first million+ score. It should have been verified. Regardless of what
happens with Billy's score, I think most people know Wiebe got there first.

03-03-2018, 04:15 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

I dropped you a PM and you sent me the files, and here are the Google Doc links :)

RTM REPLY - Thanks !! Much appreciated. I'm hoping that some good will come out of all
of those details.

BTW, the "Tommy Doyle" story is actually unrelated...a fun read, but unrelated. I must have
had it in that zip group by accident from years back. No biggie.

03-03-2018, 04:18 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

RTM REPLY - Dwayne MIGHT have this one...I cannot remember after so many years if the
copy sent to me...the "master copy" so I was told...was sent to him post-Aug/04.

03-03-2018, 05:47 PM
J.C. Harrist

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Jace Hall and co. will look at the original I assume for this, but if this youtube video was a
copied VHS tape of the original, it would make sense for the pauseing. For someone to press
pause on the "Playback" VHS deck, while ensuring the (copy) recording VHS deck was
Exhibit A - 000628
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 628/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

rolling and was recording before unpausing the "playback" VHS deck. That would explain,
the still image of blue donkey kong text at the beginning of the "copied" tape.

A paused consumer grade VCR would produce a picture that looks something like this:

Attachment 52099

Instead , we have a frame perfect still of a logo that is supposed to be flashing red 16 times
per second.

Attachment 52100

03-03-2018, 06:04 PM
YesAffinity

Donkey Kong Arcade TKG4 2-board set. Direct feed via Nintendo inverter board -> RGB-to-
NTSC encoder -> 60fps capture

While capturing at 60fps, I was recording to VHS, one recording at SP, one recording at SLP.
I also did a first recording at SP with my TKG-3 4-board set (with original "ladder cheat"
code), but swapped that out realizing possibly that would create some disparity. All (3) VHS
tapes will be sent to TG.

I let it play in attract mode for a bit, on both feeds, given the above information about attract
mode and potential pausing.

Two samples:
https://youtu.be/aR5p3JhjWjk (2 runs)
https://youtu.be/0nG6CJQlhBk

VHS playback of first sample, captured at 60fps:

https://youtu.be/ZK5WeziHBeo

03-03-2018, 08:31 PM
Asterra

I got bored and decided to compare the King of Kong footage of Billy's 1.047M score (on the
TV) with the Youtube video of said. I was looking for something to reaffirm or contradict my
stated conviction that even Jace's master tapes of Billy's scores will turn out to be 30fps.

King of Kong is a 24fps presentation, while the Youtube video, along with all footage of
Billy's 1.052M score we have yet seen, are all 30fps. If the tape is 60fps, as a "direct feed"
from Donkey Kong must be, there should be one of two anomalies in the King of Kong
footage: Either blended frames on every frame of the movie, or at least the appearance of
frames in the movie which do not show up in the 30fps Youtube video due to the differing
frame drop cadences: 60fps->30fps = [1,0,1,0,...], 60fps->24fps = [1,0,1,0,0,...].

I could find no evidence that the footage shown in King of Kong was 60fps. What I saw was
entirely consistent with the video having been 30fps just like the Youtube video.

03-03-2018, 10:41 PM
RTM
Exhibit A - 000629
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 629/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

I dropped you a PM and you sent me the files, and here are the Google Doc links :)

DK 1M Article

RTM REPLY - Just re-read the article that I wrote nearly 13 years ago and found the
definitive proof in answer to "Lexmark's" question as to whether Bill's 1.014M was direct
feed.

If you read the DK 1M article in the section recapping Bill's highlights you will read the
following, and again this was written 13 years ago...

style="vertical-align: top;
padding: 0.75pt 0.75pt 0pt
0.75pt" | The first game-
death !! Bill gets into a
tough spot on the fourth
girder leading up to the
hammer above. The barrels
are coming down fast, and a
determined fireball is
zooming up the left-most
ladders one after another
and then hovers the ladder
to the right of the hammer.
Exhibit A - 000630
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 630/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Bill tries to climb up to get

to the hammer but the
fireball comes after him,
and as he goes down the
ladder it follows. Score was
402,400 at the time. No
sound or comment is heard
from Bill because he has for
purposes of clarity a direct feed
into the video recorder.

03-03-2018, 11:26 PM
Asterra
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - Just re-read the article that I wrote nearly 13 years ago and found the
definitive proof in answer to "Lexmark's" question as to whether Bill's 1.014M was direct
feed.

Interesting footnote about that. 13 years ago means the MAME Billy used for the 1.014M
score couldn't have been the same one he used for the 1.047M / 1.052M scores; according to
the GIFs in Xelnia's original post, the "finger" beam anomaly characteristic of Billy's more
recent scores is a match for MAME 0.116-0.121 (ca. 2007). So if we ever get to see footage
of the 1.014M score, its barrel transitions will presumably be a match for Xelnia's "MAME
0.115 and below" GIF:

Attachment 52107 Exhibit A - 000631

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 631/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-03-2018, 11:39 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

be a match for Xelnia's "MAME 0.115 and below" GIF

On second thought, it seems the behavior of Donkey Kong across MAME revisions isn't so
clear-cut and it changed all the time.

It's ironic that the best piece of evidence in this dispute is due to an emulator having never
managed to accurately emulate a game from 1981.

03-04-2018, 06:21 AM
RTM

[QUOTE=Asterra;954228]Interesting footnote about that. 13 years ago means the MAME

Billy used for the 1.014M score couldn't have been the same one he used for the 1.047M /
1.052M scores[/QUTE]

RTM REPLY - let's think about this for a moment. 13+ years ago it was never even
considered a possibility that Billy, or all people, would have submitted a MAME performance
maquerading as a "direct feed" of an arcade performance. SO when I wrote this, it is entirely
possible that back in the day the mindset was either it was "live" or "direct feed", and since
the situation of the camera precluded the possibility that one was stationed smack in front of
the game else we would have seen his arms moving about, the assumption was that it was not
"live" and instead was "direct feed", which is what I wrote.

We did not have the knowledge back then, and I certainly did not, to cross- compare how
MAME vs arcade screens "load" on a frame by frame basis. So the possibility does exist that
while the 1.014M performance was definitely not filmed from afar, that even though it
appeared to be "direct feed" years back it could have been a MAME playback...now that I
think about it based on what is known now.

Yet another reason why TGSAP rather than the authenticity of a performance as being
determined by a single person is the way to go. While the referee-based business model
served its purpose back in the day for the most part, it was far from perfect.

03-04-2018, 07:05 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

This is a good observation. I have confirmed that the same thing happens in the other Youtube
video of the same score:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&t=34s

Do you have a copy of this that isn't in 240p? That is considerable low quality for evidence
purposes.
Exhibit A - 000632
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 632/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-04-2018, 07:14 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Do you have a copy of this that isn't in 240p? That is considerable low quality for evidence
purposes.

Wait, I thought that was your video. Disregard.

03-04-2018, 07:23 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Do you have a copy of this that isn't in 240p? That is considerable low quality for evidence
purposes.

There are two Youtube copies of the 1.05M score. The 240p30, camera-recording-a-TV
version above, and a 480p30, copy-of-the-"direct-feed"-master version here. The latter is
higher quality overall, but suffers certain anomalies due to being a lower-generation tape.
Specifically, the first few seconds critical to this recent observation are considerably less
distinguishable. The importance of this distinction lies in the fact that when you unpause
MAME, there is absolutely zero visible hiccup because after all it's a pure digital output,
whereas when you unpause a VHS VCR -- or indeed if a VCR is in a paused state -- there
almost certainly will be some sort of anomaly which anyone familiar with the quirks of analog
tape can pick up on. As it happens, there are no anomalies at the critical moment in the 1.05M
recording, which is in keeping with its accepted identity as MAME output.

03-04-2018, 07:24 AM
Asterra

Forgot the link to the 480p30 video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfk0WxlSqpo

03-04-2018, 07:44 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

On second thought, it seems the behavior of Donkey Kong across MAME revisions isn't so
clear-cut and it changed all the time.

It's ironic that the best piece of evidence in this dispute is due to an emulator having never
managed to accurately emulate a game from 1981.

I was hoping to find an article I could link that expressed this more eloquently than I can, but
unfortunately couldn't find anything, so here goes.

Due to the modular nature of MAME, and the complexity of older titles such as Donkey
Kong, containing lots of (custom) ICs and discrete logic (just look at the physical PCB for
DK), the emulation for such titles does not come from one single place but instead is scattered
throughout little places in the MAME codebase. As a result, bug fixes or regressions in any
Exhibit A - 000633
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 633/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

number of modules can have visible effects in the emulation of a title.

Contrast that with simpler but more powerful hardware, that will often simply have a
Motorola 68000 as its CPU, a Z80 as its sound processor, and some FPGA as its GPU, aside
from some bus logic linking everything together, most emulation code directly affecting the
presentation of the game will be in one of those three big modules, which are shared by
hundreds of other romsets. As a result the emulation of such games won't change much
between MAME versions, aside from exotic corner cases in some games.

Additionally, pre-1990 hardware has not been a focus of MAME development in quite a
while, with emulation of those titles languishing as a result (Pac-Man is a well-known
example of this).

Unrelated to any of this though, I would like to mention that the key visual difference
between MAME and real hardware used in this dispute, namely the exactly reproducible
"sliding door effect" (also known more commonly as page/buffer tearing) will most likely
never be accurately emulated in MAME because it never attempts to emulate the intricacies
of analogue video scan-out. Uncommon until much later designs, it appears that DK uses a
frame buffer to render its graphics, which is then independently read out by the video DAC.
Because the game is not double-buffered, and writes to the buffer are not synchronised with
reads, it is possible for the DAC to catch the game in the middle of drawing something like a
DK sprite (in the "How high can you get" screen). Also, because all hardware components run
at the same speed at all times, those tearing moments will always happen at the exact same
point in time, and so you get the tell-tale halfway drawn DK sprites which are 100%
reproducible on real hardware.

You can get close to this by disabling vertical synchronisation in MAME (by leaving
waitvsync = 0 in mame.ini, as @YesAffinity accidentally discovered), but because MAME is
basically always used in a multi-tasking environment with multiple processes contending for
CPU time, the exact moments in time when graphics will tear (showing the "sliding door
effect") will vary frame to frame, level to level, and run to run. You could play back the same
inp file 10 times, capture the video output with external hardware, and get different tearing
each run.

03-04-2018, 03:10 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

And yet Darren Harris argued with me to the point of being condescending and insulting
when I opined that video recording a world record was a better verification method than live
referee. He wanted ONLY live referee to be the standing TG method. If he had his way, there
would be no video evidence of Billy's cheating.

03-04-2018, 04:13 PM
Asterra

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000634
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 634/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by FBX

That's an interesting thought experiment. It seems like there would in fact be two samples of
evidence: The short home video clip of Billy presenting his DK and DKJr. scores, and King of
Kong. I gave my judgment on what could be discerned from watching KoK. Only if someone
was specifically watching out for 30fps gameplay would they ever be likely to spot such an
anomaly. But the home video clip is rather less subtle, though it would take a lot of
convincing for most people to take the discrepancy seriously, based on the limited evidence.
The first step would, I imagine, be to convince whoever took said home video to hand over
the original tape; the 30fps of the Youtube iteration is highly unlikely for a home video that
was clearly recorded with something on a tripod.

03-04-2018, 10:02 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

That's an interesting thought experiment.

Darren wanted ONLY referee verification in-person. No video whatsoever. That means there's
no experiment. You simply have only a referee's word for it. For example, imagine NONE of
Billy's million + scores for DK had any video evidence of any kind. All you'd have is Todd
Rogers and his girlfriend 'verifying' the record, and there's be no investigation because there's
nothing to review.

03-04-2018, 10:32 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Darren wanted ONLY referee verification in-person. No video whatsoever.

RTM REPLY - keep in mind, Wolff, that back-in-the-day, TG protected the request of an
individual not to share their performance (at their request) if it was pattern-based. Darren
mostly played patter games except "Star Trek". He also played "Ms Pacman" (pattern) and
"Mario Brothers" (pattern). Even "Indiana Jones" is a pattern game for the most part once you
mastered it like he did.

So, his natural stance was no video tapes...which I can understand back-in-the-day. Personally
I preferred both whenever possible, such as the "Tapper" TGTS record by Greg Erway.

03-05-2018, 08:20 AM
Mitch Mitchell
FPS Standard is 24fps

All film is released at 24fps as the standard whether its a feature, documentary etc. Film
makers and their director of photography have many choices in the digital realm,Awhether
Exhibit to
- 000635
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 635/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

shoot in 24, 30, 60, 120 etc and what aspect they want as well which is a big factor we all
consider; however when all the cut footage is encoded into a single release ready file its
brought to 24fps by the editor, regardless of what fps the various files were shot in. So the
KOK should be 24fps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

I could find no evidence that the footage shown in King of Kong was 60fps. What I saw was
entirely consistent with the video having been 30fps just like the Youtube video.

03-05-2018, 12:34 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

All film is released at 24fps as the standard whether its a feature, documentary etc. Film
makers and their director of photography have many choices in the digital realm, whether to
shoot in 24, 30, 60, 120 etc and what aspect they want as well which is a big factor we all
consider; however when all the cut footage is encoded into a single release ready file its
brought to 24fps by the editor, regardless of what fps the various files were shot in. So the
KOK should be 24fps.

Not all film is 24fps anymore. The Hobbit is an example of one. Most movie theatres don't
use mechanical projectors anymore.

03-05-2018, 01:20 PM
Mitch Mitchell
...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Not all film is 24fps anymore. The Hobbit is an example of one. Most movie theatres don't
use mechanical projectors anymore.

This has nothing to do with mechanical projectors. Yeah the Hobbit going to 48fps was an
anomaly and a total diversion from the industry standard.

03-05-2018, 01:46 PM
DustPuzzle Exhibit A - 000636
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 636/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

This has nothing to do with mechanical projectors. Yeah the Hobbit going to 48fps was an
anomaly and a total diversion from the industry standard.

And looked bloody awful too.

03-05-2018, 06:06 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

So the KOK should be 24fps.

Indeed, though uncertain why this was brought up; I do specifically note that King of Kong is
a 24fps presentation. In fact that is the linchpin of my entire investigation as to the nature of
the 1.047M video being shown on TV in the movie.

03-05-2018, 09:46 PM
Dwayne Richard
1 st person to a million?

This question is not with a clear answer. Weibe is not without serious problems as well you
cannot go by his tapes that were submitted!

You will gave to go by a live performance and it very well been done first at a kong off by
someone else!

Weibe's 1006 is with an 8 way joystick and on a double donkey kong

Weibe's 1049 should not have been excepted because there is no continuous recording. This
was rushed through by walter because of king of kong. This was one of the reasons Robert
resigned. weibe never complied with any taped submission with roberts request. Robert
continually consulted with and one point offered to go watch him play live early on from what
i remember.

So we have to go to his 1062 or whatever or when that score was i don't remember was no
longer involved directly. I have never seen it or bill's1060.

Could be hank chien since we know it was not bill. I never seen the 1014 bill retracted the
submission so it never circulated he has the copies or todd. It makes much more sense to me
why he trusted todd in these dk situations.

i think it could be hank chien's first score doctor kong for first real million!

i can't remember when and what hank's first score was but it could be ground zero for 1st
someone just has to check the chronology.
he beat the 1040 scores of both then did his 1090 score to beat the 1060 scores

03-06-2018, 12:19 AM
Asterra

Quote: Exhibit A - 000637

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 637/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by dwayne richard

Weibe's 1006 is with an 8 way joystick and on a double donkey kong

For a lot of folks, I expect those considerations are wholesale immaterial, especially if it has
ever been shown that it makes no real world difference. This isn't a question of being a TG-
certified score; it's a question of who legitimately got 1,000,000+ points first. But moving
on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwayne richard

Weibe's 1049 should not have been excepted because there is no continuous recording.

Some elaboration on this would be interesting. Jace is evidently in possession of this tape. If
there are any factors which might impact the validity of the score, I'm certain it would be a
simple matter to make an informed conclusion from whatever is on the tape. Who knows?
Maybe Wiebe was somehow also secretly a massive cheater all this time, and his tape will be
all the proof we need. Or, as I dare speculate, the tape would simply vindicate him and put the
rubber stamp on his claim to be the first andâ€‹ second to crack one million.

03-06-2018, 11:29 AM
sprinter461

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

For a lot of folks, I expect those considerations are wholesale immaterial, especially if it has
ever been shown that it makes no real world difference.

I thought it made a huge difference?

From what I recall, using an 8 way stick versus the default 4 way...allows a player to stand on
a ladder, and control barrels?

03-06-2018, 12:02 PM
timhett

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprinter461

I thought it made a huge difference?

From what I recall, using an 8 way stick versus the default 4 way...allows a player to stand on
a ladder, and control barrels?

Correct, after some debate this was verified by Hank Chien. On arcade with an 8 way you can
steer while you move, but on MAME you can only do one input at a time so on MAME you
have to stop on the ladder to steer. It's a slight advantage. He reported it on the
donkeykonforum site but I couldn't find the link just now.

03-06-2018, 12:54 PM
Blastaar

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000638
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 638/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by timhett

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...sg9561#msg9561

03-06-2018, 04:18 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Some elaboration on this would be interesting.

RTM REPLY - regarding Dwayne's statement that Wiebe's 1.049M was not a continuous
performance...

This has been stated multiple time on the forum as well in several interviews, but I shall
repeat for the benefit of newcomers since these events took place now 11+ years ago.

Steve's performance started by showing him inserting the board into the machine. After that
was done, the recording immediately switched to showing the front of the machine with
Wiebe standing in front of it. I THINK there was already a credit inserted, but after so many
years it is best to read my earlier recollections as they were more precise for some key details
like that.

Wiebe played what I thought was a solid performance. When he was done, he positioned the
camera so that it was focused on the top left quadrant of the view screen while Wiebe himself
went behind the machine for 20-25 seconds and when done he manually took the camera off
whatever tripod or resting place he had it on, and proceeded to show the back of the game
saying there was the same boardset inside.

I could not verify that performance as it broke the existing "continuity of performance" rule.

Walter was still demanding that I validate the score "based on the totality of the performance"
which I refused to do, and that was one of the three reasons that I quit TG back on Dec19/06.

03-06-2018, 05:27 PM
maximumsteve
Regarding the "Pause" issue on Bill's 1.05 DK Game...

Looking at the 2 links, there just isn’t enough to make any kind of
evaluations. Here is why...

The Image that is captured is shaky... Then you also see the word play in
the corner which is also shaky but NOT a matching shake with the image.
And whatever device used to capture to computer would not produce a
“play” text when recording.

So I believe we are watching the recording OF a recording of a recording.

Exhibit A - 000639
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 639/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

What was captured to the computer was played. And what was played was
already a copy. So having the original ready at start for the recorder to
copy so you see the words play. And the final Recording to computer is a
copy of a copy.

03-06-2018, 05:49 PM
Welp

Any update from Jace Hall?

03-06-2018, 07:46 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I could not verify that performance as it broke the existing "continuity of performance" rule.

Fair enough. So the first legitimate million score cannot (or could not at the time) be TG-
certified due to a technicality. Not that I feel that puts the score in any kind of limbo, of
course; if we can belatedly dispute four "direct feed" scores here, despite all four having been
accepted fair and square by TG's rules at the time, then we can also belatedly reexamine
disqualified scores for which far more convincing substantiation is available.

So what is the status of Wiebe's 1,064,500 score? The correct chronology has this score being
verified in August 2010, with Hank Chien's first challenge coming in January 2011. That
would seem to settle the question of who got a million first, with zero complications of
formality.

03-06-2018, 08:05 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

two points
1. The scores being challenged are being challenged because they were believed to not follow
TG rules at the time. MAME for example was not allowed by TG rules at the time. For
situations where the rules changes, challenges can still be issued to discuss how to handle a
scoreboard that has scores from different rules. However, thats not the case here. The issue
isnt rules changing, the issue is rules even of the time not being followed
2. as for reexamining disqualified scores, yes and no. Certainly anyone is allowed to resubmit,
so in that way, yes. However, we cant just decide to import scores on our own. There is no
Exhibit A - 000640
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 640/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

mechanism for the community to do that. And i agree with that, if the owner of the score isnt
willing to submit, then who are any of us to try to put in a score that the player himself/herself
isnt trying to get in?

03-06-2018, 11:52 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

So, his natural stance was no video tapes...which I can understand back-in-the-day. Personally
I preferred both whenever possible, such as the "Tapper" TGTS record by Greg Erway.

No, that was not his reasoning at all. In fact, he never even brought that argument up about
pattern protection. He merely thought video taping records was a 'foolishly unnecessary' idea.
You give Darren way too much credit for having best of intentions. The man was simply a
persnickety condescending jerk to modern gamers and the ideas we had. He felt we were
beneath the Old Guard's skill. He once even tried to claim that Billy could learn Tekken in 2
weeks and beat my brother at it (Mike was an expert player). My brother welcomed that
challenge and took as a personal insult, going so far as to saying he'd would gladly kick the
tar out of Billy on Tekken 100 matches in a row. Of course it was never set up because Darren
didn't know a damn thing about what it takes to be an expert level fighting game player, not to
mention he was speaking out of turn on Billy's behalf. You don't just spend two weeks
learning the moves and then suddenly you can beat a pro. It doesn't work that way.

At any rate, you may remember I was part of TG when protecting records in private was the
concept, and I actually agreed with it. However, for investigative reasons, I felt there must be
fully documented video proof as part of a protected storage database. TG agreed with that
stance obviously, which is why we can even have these investigations today.

03-07-2018, 02:02 AM
xelnia

The question of the first million is important, but probably not so relevant to the dispute at
hand. Hopefully @Jace Hall will have some more to share soon. Still, I've tried to put
together a timeline of the earliest millions, as best as I can determine.

03-07-2018, 02:51 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Still, I've tried to put together a timeline of the earliest millions, as best as I can determine.

That list sure makes the answer to the question very fuzzy. Obviously, yes, it is important,
since it seems to have been the primary impetus behind Billy's desperation and his retroactive
claims. This would be a ripe topic for a future Youtube video (post-TG's dispute
investigation) that disentangles the mess. Exhibit A - 000641
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 641/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In any event, by any reasonable judgment, between the legitimate 1,049,100 for which a tape
exists, and the 1,000,200 played live, I'd say Wiebe's legacy is secure. The wiki points out that
the latter is the third time a million was reached in front of a crowd. I assume the prior two
instances were Billy's, which thus makes Wiebe's live performance in fact the first.

03-07-2018, 02:59 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Someone should tell Steve. He is the absolute first person to score a million on Donkey Kong
in a legitimate setting.

03-07-2018, 03:30 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Someone should tell Steve. He is the absolute first person to score a million on Donkey Kong
in a legitimate setting.

RTM REPLY - I agree, Steve was the first. Bill campaigned vigorously against this back-in-
the-day as he had long-term plans to be recognized as the first to do so.

Small wonder the "South Park" parody of KoK had the Bono character always having to be
first in everything. Total ego-thing.

03-07-2018, 12:07 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Someone should tell Steve. He is the absolute first person to score a million on Donkey Kong
in a legitimate setting.

LOL Steve knows he is the first person to score a million, you can see Steve crying about how
he got the a mill in the fun spot snack bar in the movie the king of kong :) pay attention boy

Exhibit A - 000642
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 642/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-07-2018, 12:13 PM
Dave Hawksett

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Thank you for compiling this Jeremy. Please post it here so we have it as permanent evidence.

03-07-2018, 01:00 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

LOL Steve knows he is the first person to score a million, you can see Steve crying about how
he got the a mill in the fun spot snack bar in the movie the king of kong :) pay attention boy

He didn't score it without any complications until after King of kong came out. His other
scores were disputed because of various reasons.

03-07-2018, 02:53 PM
xelnia

In the big GIF post, I incorrectly posted a duplicate of one the MAME transitions. The rivet
transition for MAME 0.116-0.121 is a duplicate of the MAME 0.115 GIF. The correct
transitions GIFs for those versions are below.

MAME 0.115 and below ----- MAME 0.116-0.121

https://i.imgur.com/lF5ZAdg.gif https://i.imgur.com/MDCber6.gif

03-07-2018, 02:55 PM
xelnia
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett

Thank you for compiling this Jeremy. Please post it here so we have it as permanent evidence.

Post editor seems a little a glitchy, so I'm having trouble figuring out the best way to re-post a
table. So, here's a screenshot of the DKF post.

Attachment 52282

03-07-2018, 07:54 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Exhibit A - 000643
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 643/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

LOL Steve knows he is the first person to score a million, you can see Steve crying about how
he got the a mill in the fun spot snack bar in the movie the king of kong :) pay attention boy

RTM REPLY - Not quite.

Steve was crying because he was "not invited" over to "Bryan Kuh's Cabin" to watch the
playing of Billy's tape. That is one of the many patently false allegations made by the director
of this film.

Steve actually showed up the physical day AFTER the first part of the film was shown...in the
Cram cabin (aka "The Lodge" at the Sun Valley lodging facility down the road from ACAM).
Additionally, that took place in the evening well past Funspot's closing time.

He was, however, excluded from the second part of the filming took place...in my
cabin...during the evening of the day that he arrived. That was because Brian Kuh, acting
under Billy's specific instructions, would not allow Steve in particular to see this tape.

IMPORTANT POINT - Billy claimed not to know that Kuh would be in attendance, yet why
would he have given such an explicit instruction to Kuh, then ? That's another false
claim...that Bill was unaware. More Bill Mitchell misdirection because he wanted to create
"drama". He knew damn well that no one at the event could possibly achieve a 1M score save
for Steve which is why that offer was made AFTER the tape was shown at ACAM. That's
because there was such negative backlash over the unsportsmanlike action taken...which at
one point included Kuh trying to place a TV monitor playing that tape ON TOP of the DK
machine that Wiebe would be playing at...that it was a face-saving maneuver by Bill. NO
MENTION of this $1K for beating 1M and $10K for beating that particular score was
mentioned until the following morning by Walter. Further, the actions of that night lead to the
resignation of a TG senior official in protest of what Walter/Billy had done that evening.

Don't go explicitly by what you see in that film. It is a complete mess in terms of both
accuracy and continuity, and the director in many an interview consistently hid from
providing an explanation as to why his film product had so many glaring errors. It is only
about 20% accurate in total if you know the full scope of what really happened...which a few
of us that were both filmed for KoK and were in attendance for that ACAM event do.

03-07-2018, 11:03 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Exhibit A - 000644
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 644/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

mentioned until the following morning by Walter. Further, the actions of that night lead to the
resignation of a TG senior official in protest of what Walter/Billy had done that evening.

I was watching the live stream of "The Retro Roundtable" the other day when the subject of
Bryan Kuh was brought up. Voultar referred to the man as a "snake in the water that shouldn't
be trusted with ANYTHING even remotely official for record keeping".

03-08-2018, 04:40 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

RTM REPLY - unsure why that assessment was made by this "Voulter" as Brian was never a
referee and has never submitted a false score to TG. Seems more like guilt-by-association by
being Billy's "anointed", I think. Brian's mistake was drinking Billy's "Kool-Aid", so to speak.

03-08-2018, 06:01 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I think the idea of him just handling the tape is some "invovlement" with record keeping. On
the one hand, I agree with you that I'm not really concerned, if we start freaking out just
because someone we dont trust once sneezed on a piece of evidence then we'll never be able
to solve anything. There is some poetry there though, because one of team billy's earlier
cliams was since dwayne touched tape (due to the fact billy gave it to him, but they leave that
part out) it automatically invalidates anything found on it. So although I dont believe in
sinking to their level and treated Brian the way they treated Dwayne, at the same time there is
some humor in turning their logic on them

03-08-2018, 07:51 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

It was an outside person's reaction to what a groveling snake Kuh came across as. And I
thought it was interesting what people who have no connection or vested interest in TG or
Billy thought of these 'characters' involved in the shenanigans. Exhibit A - 000645
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 645/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-10-2018, 06:36 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Have there been updates I have missed? Seems like the thread kind of died.

03-10-2018, 08:41 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Have there been updates I have missed? Seems like the thread kind of died.

I think everything has been said at this point, we're just waiting for Jace to finish his
investigation and give us the verdict.

03-10-2018, 09:49 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

I think everything has been said at this point, we're just waiting for Jace to finish his
investigation and give us the verdict.

@TWIN GALAXIES investigation update on video tape review with the new VCR rig
shown a couple of weeks ago would be very much appreciated.

03-10-2018, 11:06 AM
bh_

To date we've seen no innocent explanation for:

* MAME-like rendering: The broken "finger girder" seem in some of the transitions. The
ziggurat style girder pile seen in rivet stage endings. And so on. MAME uses a frame buffer
and draws the right side of the screen earlier, while the arcade hardware does not use a frame
buffer and draws the left side earlier. No amount of analog signal conversion will ever
produce these artifacts.

* Missing sound where the direct capture card supposedly used does in fact have audio out.
The DK MAME implementation of the time contains sound errors.

* Statistical anomalies in the number of smashes and per smash point values.

* The bizarre, faked board swap video.

* Gameplay that looks tool-assisted: taking unreasonable risks an hour into a 1.2m-pace game
and coming out ahead every single time.

* Frame rate differences between Billy and Wiebe's games in KOK. Billy's game runs slightly
slower than Wiebe's. On old hardware MAME struggles to keep up.

* No record of anything approaching million point play live.

* Why the records were accepted in violation of TG rules that were in force at the time.
Exhibit A - 000646
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 646/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Most of these discrepancies would be incriminating on their own. Taken together it looks like
a heap of smoking guns piled up on the grassy knoll. Given how long this has dragged out in
the face of overwhelming evidence I don't think I'm the only person who's losing confidence
in TG.

03-10-2018, 11:12 AM
kevinjamestobin

TG just needs to be 100% that all possibilities are covered before making a final decision.

03-10-2018, 11:13 AM
kevinjamestobin

*100% sure

03-10-2018, 11:29 AM
Snowflake

I know I risk cluttering things up more with a comment suggesting we clutter less, but here
goes.

things are just speculation right now, we're waiting on jace. I do think this has been handled
very well so far, much better than dragster was. I'm seeing thoroughness as opposed to just
delaying tactics. The supervcr was purchased and we got that update, I dont mind waiting
when its for something more thorough. Yeah, it would be nice to have some update, the fact
the device was bought tells me this is higher priority than normal dispuate and TG knows it,
so i would expect them to get around to actually using it and show us some footage. Clocks
definitely ticking, I'll join in the impatience too if it drags out forever but so far I feel like
we've been updated. Some of the inpatient commnets i've noticed come from people that didnt
even read the whole thread since some of the questions and complaints have already been
adressed, and others were just outright wrong assumptions which could only come from
rumors that the commenter was too lazy to verify before commenting -- note this isnt
everyone, and i'm not saying it is, just saying i've noticed it from a few.

for anyone who hasnt read the whole thread, I'd say take the time to do that in the meantime.
for anyone who has read the whole thread, yeah, i'd like to see a little more speed, but
wouldnt you agree its not too long just yet considering all the effort put in thus far? I dont
think billy mitchel should get special treatment in the sense that he gets a pass, but i do think
this requires special attention considering we know he'll sue a cartoon just for joking about
him. Again, dont twist my words, that doesnt mean you let him slide, it just means its not
enough to be sure, it means you need to take the extra time to protect yourself from the
frivolous lawsuits that he's shown a willingness to engage in. I think there's really no doubt
he's a cheater and his scores need to be stripped, the only thing left to do is take the time to
protect yourself from his lawyers and bullying tactics. I dont think thats the same thing as
special treatment, thats just being smart.

03-10-2018, 12:15 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I think there's really no doubt he's a cheater and his scores need to be stripped, the only thing
left to do is take the time to protect yourself from his lawyers and bullying tactics
Exhibit A - 000647
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 647/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM REPLY - if the outcome goes south, as all collective evidence thus far would seem to
suggest, then this may be the first time in TG history where a real legal challenge will be
directed at TG over the removal of a score.

I'm excluding the bogus legal missives sent to TG officials by a certain LA-based gamer
which were filled with typos and coming from the real-life equivalent of Lionel Hutz
("Simpsons" fans will get that).

Should Billy's score be removed, think of the negative PR impact it will have on someone
who for the better part of 35 years has been riding high on the social media "legacy" created
by this score and some others. Heck, should it happen then he can potentially "claim" that a
score removal indirectly results in a drop in business at his restaurants. Whether such would
carry any legal weight in the court system remains to be seen...it could outright be thrown out
as a waste of the court system's time and money, or it could actually go to the next step.

Ron Corcoran is in absolutely no position to pull such a stunt. Todd, if he truly wanted to he
would have attempted so by now. Roy, his bark was worse than his bite years back. But
Billy...who "always has a plan"...this could be yet another famous first in gaming to add to his
growing list of similar claims - https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...438#post950438

03-10-2018, 03:33 PM
Jace Hall
3 Attachment(s)
Another update and potential question...

As we continue to crawl through the tapes we have frame-by-frame examining every

transition and comparing to our established knowledge base, one thing we have been trying to
reconcile (and have not yet been able to) relates to the screen orientation of the Donkey Kong
gameplay that has been recorded. on Billy's tapes

Our current understanding is that the DK PCB signal rasterizes to the screen in a very specific
orientation, because it assumes a specific sideways monitor orientation for the arcade display.

Taking a look at Chris Gleed's direct feed recording shows us the expected orientation:

Attachment 52449

However, in looking at Billy's tapes, we see a reverse orientation:

Attachment 52450

We are trying to figure out how this is possible to achieve with a direct feed from a DK PCB.
We are wondering if the inverter board that Billy used somehow accounted for this orientation
change. We are not sure if a simple inverter could re-orient a signal like that without
processing.

The inverter board that was used for Billy's recording (as claimed by Robert Childs) was this
one:

Attachment 52455

We have reached out to Billy to see if he will provide the inverter boardExhibit
to us. We
A have not
- 000648
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 648/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

heard back.

We have also reached out to the company TwoBits.com (which appears to be Game Boards
USA) to see if we could buy a board from them to test with.

This matter could become an important data point in the accumulating body of evidence. Any
community knowledge or insight into this particular inverter board (or others) and their
display behavior would be helpful.

We are well aware that in MAME, it is possible to set screen display orientation and that
could account for the different layout in the recordings we are viewing - however we also
must consider that the inverter board used may be the reason as well (if it is technically
possible.)

Please feel free to share any thoughts or insights into this particular matter as we continue our
investigation.

03-10-2018, 03:55 PM
Jace Hall
1 Attachment(s)

We have found the inverter boards in question and have purchased two of them.

Attachment 52460

By having 2 of them we can send one of them out to community members as needed for 3rd
party verification and testing.

We have also confirmed from the owners that these boards have only ever been of one type
and never changed/updated.

This means that both inverter boards that were historically purchased and used for all of
Billy's recordings were identical to each other.

It also means that the boards we have purchased now are identical to the ones that were
originally used.

https://gameboardsusa.com/shop?olsPa...-two-bit-score

The investigation continues to move forward.

03-10-2018, 04:51 PM
Jace Hall

Please forgive my terminology in the above posts. When I said inverter board I meant to say
converter board.

It’s been a long week.

03-10-2018, 06:27 PM
ieure
1 Attachment(s)

Absolutely not, that converter board could not flip the image like that. That's a vertical flip,
which means you're reversing the order of the lines within the field. A flip like that
Exhibit A -would
000649
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 649/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

require buffering the entire field and outputting its lines in reverse order, while concurrently
sampling the next field. All video would be delayed an entire field compared to what it should
be.

The DK PCB can flip the image *horizontally*, which it does for the second player in a
cocktail configuration. I don't think it can output an image which is flipped vertically, and I
sincerely doubt the converter board would change it.

03-10-2018, 06:29 PM
Robert.F

Jace thank you for the up date

Hey kids rock and roll,Rock on, oh my soulHey kids boogey too, did yaHey shout,
summertime blues,Jump up and down in my blue suede shoesHey kids rock and roll, rock
onAnd where do we go from here?Which is the way that's clear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5ZE7grYKbw

03-10-2018, 07:20 PM
Sirsalt

This is an interesting development. I'd like to throw out something that I know on the tech
side. It could possible help Jace in his investigation.

I also think Leure is incorrect in the comment a couple above this. That is, if I'm
understanding the comment correctly.

Leure: Tha'ts not a vertical rotation. Just because the tube is mounted vertical doesn't change
the fact that the wider length of the monitor is still considered the horizontal. If you adjust the
Sanyo EZ20 horizontal width coil, the size increases/shrinks long ways (up/down on DK),
due to the fact that that's how monitors are spec'd.

There is also difference between flip and rotation. If we go with the orientation of a DK
arcade monitor (vertical) and flip the correct picture 180 degrees, we would have an upside
down inverted picture. If we rotate the picture 180 degrees, we would have just an upside
down picture.

Now getting to the picture issues with Donkey Kong....

I'll start out by stating that DK is a machine that I've never really delved into on the hardware
side. I've rebuilt plenty of Sanyo EZ20's, but have never had to do a complete DK rebuild,
hardware wise. I do know a few things that happen when DK is not operating correctly, and
one of them is, the screen rotating 180 degrees horizontally (resulting in an upside down
picture, due to DK having the monitor mounted vertical). I'm not sure what causes this, as I
haven't had to dig in and fix this issue for any of my arcade machines. I currently have a DK
Jr. that does this every now and again, but it usually resolves itself. When this machine gets to
the point that it doesn't resolve itself, I'll then dig into it and become an expert.

I'm not sure how many techs are on TG, but the "screen flip" issue is common on DK. It's
technically not "screen flip", as the picture is not inverted. But that's the common name, so I'll
roll with it. I've seen "screen flip" most commonly happen if the control panel is touched by a
person who has static build up on their body. The static shock will cause the screen to
instantly rotate 180 degrees and stay that way. I've seen this fixed by rebooting. I've also seen
Exhibit A - 000650
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 650/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

this cause the picture to stay rotated, and the monitor have to be serviced. So a 180 degree
rotated DK is not uncommon, when whatever the issue, causes the "screen flip. Whether this
can somehow happen during conversion output, will have to be determined by someone
testing. I'm sure there are plenty of techs out there that can tell us exactly why the "screen
flip" issue happens. My uneducated guess would be that the the monitor would have to be
"broken" to where the "screen flip" is constant for it to be flipped on the conversion output, if
that's even possible, due to the monitor having a defect at the time.

One last thing. When the "screen flip" issue occurs, the game works and plays just fine. The
picture is just rotated 180 degrees. I'll see if I can get a short video of my DK Jr. doing it. One
thing for sure. DK can have it's picture rotated 180 degrees, and look and operate just fine.

-John

03-10-2018, 09:10 PM
ieure

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirsalt

This is an interesting development. I'd like to throw out something that I know on the tech
side. It could possible help Jace in his investigation.

I also think Leure is incorrect in the comment a couple above this. That is, if I'm
understanding the comment correctly.

Yeah, this is confusing because there are a lot of things in play, but I know how raster scan
works, and I understand that orientation of the monitor doesn't change it. But it's helpful to
see how it's mounted to understand how a direct capture would look.

Let's start by defining normal orientation: that's when your raster scan pattern goes from left-
to-right, top-to-bottom. If you're watching a TV (set on its bottom, not through a mirror),
that's normal orientation. A DK monitor is mounted 90 degrees counterclockwise vs. normal,
meaning the raster scans bottom-to-top, left-to-right; the left-hand side of the DK level is the
top of the monitor, and the top of the DK level is on the right.

A direct capture should match that: the top of the image should be the left side of the board,
and the right should be the top -- if you rotated that PVM 90deg CCW, it should show you a
DK level like you'd see playing the cabinet.

I did actually misstate, the image is rotated, not just flipped -- so rasters would have to be
drawn both backwards and in reverse order. That makes it less likely that the converter board
could do it.

Exhibit A - 000651
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 651/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Regardless, if the image was rotated 180 degrees by any mechanism, it would have been
unplayable on a real DK cabinet.

Now, I freely admit that I'm not tracking the actual tapes and scores too well here, but if you
look at this video of Billy playing his DK & DKJr tapes at IVGHOF, you can see that the TVs
are rotated 90deg CCW, and show the gameplay right-side-up, which is consistent with a
direct capture. Is this supposed to be the same tape which is in Jace's possession?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-LRptUQwFE

03-10-2018, 09:10 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This means that both inverter boards that were historically purchased and used for all of
Billy's recordings were identical to each other.

It also means that the boards we have purchased now are identical to the ones that were
originally used.

https://gameboardsusa.com/shop?olsPa...-two-bit-score

The investigation continues to move forward.

How do you know they were actually used? Is that just assumed based on the given
testimony?

03-10-2018, 10:27 PM
Robert.F
the wider length of the monitor

the wider length of the monitor ? really is this what its come down to ? wtf

03-10-2018, 10:30 PM
Robert.F
confusing but I know how raster scan works

Yeah, this is confusing because there are a lot of things in play, but I know how raster scan
works

03-10-2018, 10:36 PM
Robert.F
Podding pops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl2xQAeCvOc

03-11-2018, 12:23 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Exhibit A - 000652
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 652/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

How do you know they were actually used? Is that just assumed based on the given
testimony?

Billy has directly claimed their use to me and disclosed that Robert Childs was the person
who purchased the converter board on two different occasions for use.

03-11-2018, 07:01 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Billy has directly claimed their use to me and disclosed that Robert Childs was the person
who purchased the converter board on two different occasions for use.

RTM REPLY - Jace, I'm not being accusatory, but a parallel exists which is so close that I
have to point this out...

-> Years back, another gamer (Roy Shildt) also had a score claim for decades never once
mentioned certain "facts" about that performance (a previously unknown variation of the
operator's manual) until the existence of this variation became known publicly via
happenstance...and once this became known, Roy stood 100% behind it as the reason
justifying his claim even though for decades mention of this alternate manual and dipswitch
settings never once came up in any discussion with TG.

-> Fast forward to the present, and Roy's nemesis (Bill) never once mentioned the usage of a
"converter" for his performances until such a time when an exhaustive investigation of the
nuances of his various performances' screen-loads was undertaken and the information was
made public.

So, the parallel occurred to me...is the new revelation of these converter boards being used as
a "Hail Mary" by Billy ? Makes you think.

03-11-2018, 07:02 AM
Sirsalt

My post was to inform, in lay man's terms, as best I could, that a DK machine is capable of
displaying and playing correctly, the image "upside down", although the "upside down" image
happens in a "failure" state. No more no less.

03-11-2018, 07:33 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Billy has directly claimed their use to me and disclosed that Robert Childs was the person
who purchased the converter board on two different occasions for use.

You may not realize it but you are coming off as being in Billy's corner. Have you spoken to
Billy in regards to the dispute? I don't think we have heard about that before this. Maybe I am
completely off.
Exhibit A - 000653
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 653/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-11-2018, 07:58 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirsalt

What happens in a "failure" state, is the image is flipped, not rotated. As Ieure stated, the
standard scan orientation for a DK PCB/cabinet combination is left-to-right, top-to-bottom. If
you get horizontal foldover (which I'm assuming is happening in a "failure" state - and
remember the monitor is on its side so horizontal appears vertical), the screen would flip
upside down, not rotate upside down. So it would scan right-to-left, bottom-to-top. If it was
rotated upside down, it would have scanned right-to-left, top-to-bottom, which isn't possible
without either rotating the monitor itself or inverting the H/V yoke connections.

A note on cocktail PCBs like DK: there isn't really a standard vertical orientation for cabinets.
In the case of DK, the PCB was "married" to the cabinet because this was before the JAMMA
standard was established and Nintendo decided to use inverted video. But most if not all later
cocktail PCBs have a dip switch setting to flip the image 180 degrees to account for installing
in a cabinet with a reversed monitor orientation. I don't think DK has a dip switch for this; the
only plausible explanation for Billy's recordings being upside down is if DK in fact does have
a dip switch for 180 degree rotation.

For PCBs that don't have such dip switches, the simple solution (which I hinted at above)
short of physically mounting the monitor upside down in the cabinet, is to invert the H/V
yoke connectors. This simply reverses the scan orientation so the CRT will scan opposite to
its normal orientation (relative to the anode cup). Here is a video detailing the process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP3ll7nlEEE
This operation does not change the video signal in any way and a recording will show the
orientation as output by the PCB natively!

03-11-2018, 08:02 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

As Ieure stated, the standard scan orientation for a DK PCB/cabinet combination is left-to-
right, top-to-bottom. (...) So it would scan right-to-left, bottom-to-top.

Correction: the standard orientation is left-to-right, bottom-to-top, and when folded over this
would change into left-to-right, top-to-bottom. Excuse the mistake, it's easy to get all these
orientations mixed up.

03-11-2018, 09:15 AM
Welp

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - Jace, I'm not being accusatory, but a parallel exists which is so close that I
have to point this out... Exhibit A - 000654
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 654/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

So, the parallel occurred to me...is the new revelation of these converter boards being used as
a "Hail Mary" by Billy ? Makes you think.

I mean, if some converter board can cause the game to output MAME-like transitions and
video, then fair play to Billy I guess. I don't think there's any need to prove chain of custody
here, just that it is possible for an authentic arcade cabinet to output this kind of result with
commercially available hardware. To my knowledge, none of the DK experts who have
spoken in this forum or the other believe it is possible a converter board can do this. But I'm
glad Jace is fully testing it.

Billy's people have had quite some time at this point to put up the obvious evidence that
would end this entire controversy - simply replicate the setup, record a VHS, and upload it. If
it outputs the same kind of transitions and video, Billy is cleared. They still have not done
this.

03-11-2018, 12:17 PM
Sirsalt

The issue I'm referring to has nothing to do with fold over. A newly capped Sanyo EZ20 can
go into the "flipped screen" state under the right circumstances. And the picture IS rotated,
not flipped. A flipped picture would 100% HAVE to be inverted as well as upside down. I get
the fact that most of the world calls an upside down picture "flipped", but that's not the case in
the technical monitor aspect. As far as how it's drawn left to right, right to left, is not my
point.

A good example is Revolution X. If you look a the monitor (not the game play mirror
reflection) from the back of the cab, you will see a truly "flipped" picture. It's upside down
AND inverted. The picture is flipped so the reflection off the mirror is correct when playing.

Either way, DK can will display an upside down picture when zapped with a static charge.
There are other things that can initiate it, as well. I do not know the root cause of this issue.

03-11-2018, 02:51 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirsalt

The issue I'm referring to has nothing to do with fold over. A newly capped Sanyo EZ20 can
go into the "flipped screen" state under the right circumstances. And the picture IS rotated,
not flipped. A flipped picture would 100% HAVE to be inverted as well as upside down. I get
Exhibit A - 000655
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 655/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the fact that most of the world calls an upside down picture "flipped", but that's not the case in
the technical monitor aspect. As far as how it's drawn left to right, right to left, is not my
point.

Either way, DK can will display an upside down picture when zapped with a static charge.
There are other things that can initiate it, as well. I do not know the root cause of this issue.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the evidence presented.

03-11-2018, 03:41 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

As stated in a previous post in this thread, we asked Billy to provide the converter board he
used for his recordings so that we could test. This converter board was identified by him as
the two bit RGB to NTSC device.

He responded to our inquiry yesterday stating that the converter board belongs to Robert
Childs and he would ask him if he would be willing to send it.

Since we were also able to locate and purchase a two bit converter board ourselves yesterday
it may not be needed for Robert to send his.

We confirmed with the manufacturer that the two bit converter board has not ever been
updated or changed since it’s creation.

03-11-2018, 03:54 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Since we were also able to locate and purchase a two bit converter board ourselves yesterday
it may not be needed for Robert to send his.

We confirmed with the manufacturer that the two bit converter board has not ever been
updated or changed since it’s creation.

RTM REPLY - But without the original used by Billy there is no way to determine if it had
been modified in any way.

Exhibit A - 000656
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 656/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

12+ years ago Billy, and Chris Ayra, demanded that Abdner Ashman's "Ms Pacman" world
record score should be yanked from the TG database, so at my own expense as chief referee I
sent it to Lupine Systems for testing, and even though it passed they STILL demanded the
removal of Abdner's score.

Fair is fair. Demand that Billy provide HIS original boards for test evaluation. See how he
likes being at the receiving end of the stick.

03-11-2018, 07:06 PM
RTM

A question for Jace, and for the sake of expedience.

Seems to me like there are issues that everyone WANTS resolved and there are issues that
CAN be resolved, and these are not necessarily the same.

WANTS - everyone would like to know about the veracity of the DK scores by Bill going
back to the 1.047M, and possibly even the earlier 1.014M

CAN - aside from the above, it has been suggested that Bill has never publicly achieved 1M.
His rate of scoring suggests that he is capable of 1.120-1.125M inclusive of performances
where he intentionally dumped points or ended prematurely. I won't get into the percentages
here of his "blue point" acquisition for what I am about to say.

My point...if Billy CAN get, potentially, 1.125M points or thereabout, there is NO reason that
he cannot be asked to play live and given 10-20 chances to play to see if he can at least get
1.075M as even that is higher than any submission thus far.

There is a jump in skillset for every 40-50K or so in the game beyond a certain point...new
tactics, finely honed basic skills, better timing, etc. Under the original TG score challenge
rules the score was removed from the TG database until the player could "re-game" inside of
a year, otherwise it remains removed for the long run.

If Bill can pull this off live, under TG-monitored conditions, ideally with one or more DK
forum members present, then at least it will answer the "can he do it" question.

Therefore I'm calling Billy out on this. Anyone who can so cavalierly dump points on a then-
record pace can clearly do so again with minimal preparation, otherwise his doing so (in at
two known instances) was the pinnacle of foolishness which might be what "being Billy
Mitchell" (his own words) epitomizes.

03-11-2018, 07:06 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Exhibit A - 000657
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 657/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM REPLY - But without the original used by Billy there is no way to determine if it had
been modified in any way.

Fair is fair. Demand that Billy provide HIS original boards for test evaluation. See how he
likes being at the receiving end of the stick.

Yeah for sure. And demand a answer from Billy to who did he give (receive on TG's behalf)
of his 1.062 DK direct capture VHS tape and VHS DK jr. 1.230 from 7-30-2010? Cause he
says "TG should have them !!!!"

Or have those been found? I stepped away for a while.

03-11-2018, 07:34 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

A question for Jace, and for the sake of expedience.

Seems to me like there are issues that everyone WANTS resolved and there are issues that
CAN be resolved, and these are not necessarily the same.

WANTS - everyone would like to know about the veracity of the DK scores by Bill going
back to the 1.047M, and possibly even the earlier 1.014M

If Bill can pull this off live, under TG-monitored conditions, ideally with one or more DK
forum members present, then at least it will answer the "can he do it" question.

Still does not answer anything about the earlier performances, though. But at this point, you
have to ask yourself...if he was so cocky (his own words) in "being Billy Mitchell" to dump
points that at his normal pace would have translated to a 1.125M game, surely this suggests
that he actually HAD done so beforehand. No serious gamer EVER intentionally dumps on
their favourite title when a new personal best is potentially involved. Name one case where
Exhibit A - 000658
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 658/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

anyone had ever done this who was serious about their favourite title.

I have a minor disagreement on "dumping points" as some players do like round numbers.
Centipede has had several players purposely get neat scores. Marathon players often can go
longer but choose to only get x points, however, that really a minor point just wanted to look
at the stament as a whole in my response.

as for regaming, i would normally say thats not the same, you yourself here acknowledge that
doing it now doesnt prove he did it then, and you've previously commented against forcing
regaming as doing it then doesnt mean you can do it now. So going etiehr way through the
time you know it doesnt prove anything, however, all that aside, i still agree with your final
assessment.

Billy's defense, and his supporters defesne revolve around "Billy is a nice guy, he's my pal,
and he's really good at video games". I'll take the word on the nice guy and pal part. However,
there seems to be the idea if you're good enough to get an impressive score (800k is
impressive in plenty of circles) then that somehow proves you get infinity for a score. Billy
himself still encourages the idea that he's the best video gamer ever. So while a regame might
prove nothing from a strictly logical viewpoint, it would strike at the heart of where his
refusal to come clean comes from. This is all about pride, and the adoration of his side kicks.
Regaming and failing would mean shattering the image he's tried so hard to cultivate in his
fans. Refusing to regame also speaks for itself. An official regame request, from a
psychological angle would sap his pride, which is the only thing thats preventing this clean
cut case from ending.

so in short, although i disagree with some of the logic, i agree with the final conclusion. Ask
billy to regame and then sit back and watch his tone change as he faces that humiliation.

03-11-2018, 08:16 PM
Welp

there's not really any benefit to having billy play the game again. my understanding is that
new point pressing strategies have been discovered since billy's game in question, and that he
would have an easier time scoring over 1 million by learning from other players than he
would have when he (supposedly) got his first 1m+ score.

03-11-2018, 08:18 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Exhibit A - 000659
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 659/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM REPLY - in his 1.047M performance Bill reached the level 20 elevator stage at approx
990-995K then started dumping points so that he finished the stage at exactly 000,000 and
then he reached the end of the game with a final score of 1,047,200 AND, on top of that,
dumping 1-2 lives completely. Based on the pace that he was at for the rest of the game, and
factoring in those intentionally abandoned lives, and that would have easily been a 1.100-
1.125M game.

Most DK players are functionally aware of the "pace" that they need to be on. They often
restart a game if they do not reach a certain point-threshold by, say, level 4-5...Bill himself
told me he used to do that if he was not at or over I think 130K or 140K up to that point.

On another performance he left the game entirely at the low-mid 900K range well before the
final stage. Again, based on his own statistical averages, that had the potential to be a low-
1.1M game.

The 1.047M was an intentionally dumped game just so he could get exactly 100K more than
Steve Wiebe's much earlier 947,200 submission to TG. However the other performance was
done only because he was "being Bill Mitchell", in his own words.

Bill's 1.047M was a case of one-upsmanship, and his other abandoned score was just plain
foolishness.

03-11-2018, 08:27 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

On another performance he left the game entirely at the low-mid 900K range well before the
final stage. Again, based on his own statistical averages, that had the potential to be a low-
1.1M game.

I've seen truly intentional scores before where someone achieved, for example, a "Centipede"
record of 7,111,111 or a "999,995" score on Williams "Defender", or in my own case a
"99,999,983" on arcade "Star Wars" (the closest I could come to all-9's without rolling it).
Exhibit A - 000660
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 660/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Bill's 1.047M was a case of one-upsmanship, and his other abandoned score was just plain
foolishness.

now the perfect million is interesting. Any sort of complain about sportsmanship is open to
opinion, but even if everyone agrees its bad sportsmanship, well bad sportsmanship is not
unheard of and it certainly doesnt prove cheating. I think whats weird about the perfect
million is, he didnt stop there. I can see motiviation for an exact final score. It does seem very
strange to get exactly a million though. Almost makes you wonder if his original tape was
him getting exactly a million then killing of all his men, that way he could brag about not just
being first to 1 million, but the first to 1 million exactly. Its almost as if he had his first to 1
million exactly score, then just used that as the groundwork to splice on the remaining points.
Just speculation of course, but I cant imagine any other reason to care about such a precise
score if its not your final score.

03-11-2018, 11:34 PM
Scoops

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Robert are you suggesting a player using save states in Mame to build up his score is far more
likely to mess around and dump points than a player who has gone through the mill for 2+
hours playing normally?

03-12-2018, 03:20 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

As another person already submitted, this suggestion, which has been made in this thread
before, has problems.

* It has nothing to do with this dispute.

* It has nothing to do with the evidence of MAME present on the tapes of the two scores for
which tapes at least exist.

* Billy scoring that high today wouldn't even be useful as proof potentially relevant to the
dispute, since 1) anyone can get better at a game, especially in ten years, and 2) the strategies
one needs to achieve 1.2M+ are today available to anyone who cares to look -- strategies
which were, of course, mostly absent from Billy's gameplay in the mid 2000s, since they
Exhibit A - 000661
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 661/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

mostly didn't exist.

* Donkey Kong is a volatile game and not the kind where one is guaranteed to have a million-
point+ run in a given dozen or couple dozen attempts, no matter how good you are. Anyone
who has watched a Donkey Kong stream would be aware of this.

I feel the calls for Billy to perform live are being made out of an interest to have him
humiliated for being unable or unwilling to perform. If this idea ever gained traction, it would
almost certainly backfire against such a goal, and potentially give Billy some kind of lifeline
in what remains an open-and-shut case. In the end, it's simply not relevant.

03-12-2018, 04:38 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoops

RTM REPLY - actually I never mentioned the word MAME, but I did state earlier that Bill
had once told me years back that no matter what score Steve submitted he would always pull
out a tape that had an even higher score, the implication being that he either (A) had multiple
pre-recorded performances of scores in excess of Steve's then-1.006M up to however high
Bill had reached at the time, or (B) could achieve a much higher score nearly at will as he had
done so much earlier in private practice.

Either way, the implication I am making is that no serious record holder so cavalierly dumps
on a world-record-pace performance, whether in video gaming or a single-event in live
physical competition, especially considering Bill had no higher submission already with TG.
It makes no logical sense to be apparently capable of 1.125M, yet his best submissions up to
that point, live or not, were 80-100K or lower than that.

03-12-2018, 04:51 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

As another person already submitted, this suggestion, which has been made in this thread
before, has problems.

* It has nothing to do with this dispute.

* It has nothing to do with the evidence of MAME present on the tapes of the two scores for
which tapes at least exist.

* Billy scoring that high today wouldn't even be useful as proof potentially relevant to the
dispute, since 1) anyone can get better at a game, especially in ten years, and 2) the strategies
one needs to achieve 1.2M+ are today available to anyone who cares to look -- strategies
which were, of course, mostly absent from Billy's gameplay in the mid 2000s, since they
Exhibit A - 000662
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 662/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

mostly didn't exist.

RTM REPLY - I disagree with you on a number of levels (no pun intended)...

-> " It has nothing to do with this dispute" - not quite. Bill's history of dumping performances
and previous statements to me...I had been dealing with Bill and DK dating back as far as
2001 and as late as 2007...suggests that he had been maintaining a cache of unsubmitted
performances in excess of 1.014M or that he was fully capable of scoring higher with ease or
at will

-> "It has nothing to do with the evidence of MAME present on the tapes of the two scores for
which tapes at least exist." - it doesn't nor does it have to be...the original score challenge
itself did not limit the discussion to surrounding MAME

-> "Billy scoring that high today wouldn't even be useful as proof potentially relevant to the
dispute" - I already said as much above in my post...the sole purpose of having him score that
high is to see if he could after all he has said and done

-> "Donkey Kong is a volatile game and not the kind where one is guaranteed to have a
million-point+ run in a given dozen or couple dozen attempts, no matter how good you are.
Anyone who has watched a Donkey Kong stream would be aware of this." - tell me
something I do not already know...I was chief referee for Twin Galaxies for 4-1/2 years...BIll
told me himself on another occasion that while his submitted scores are high, what people do
not see or know are all the aborted attempts he makes, but even so, he also told me directly
that he could beat higher scores that Steve's (then 1.006M) whenever they were submitted

-> "I feel the calls for Billy to perform live are being made out of an interest to have him
humiliated for being unable or unwilling to perform. If this idea ever gained traction," - has
nothing to do with that at all, but considering how he had been pushing for years for a certain
other gamer to perform live, and how Billy (and Rick/Chris) has expected Abdner to play
"Junior Pacman" live (travelling at ACAM to do so, no less, which he did), then BIll should
hold himself to the same standard that he held every other gamer to over the years.

It's not about "humiliation"...it's about fair being fair.

Bill made demands over the years for TG to act on and out-rightly reject world record
submissions made by gamers which beat either his own personal record score or those of his
good friends. It is with that and everything else collectively that I said what I did.

Bill needs to be held to the same standards that he held everyone else to. No more, no less.

03-12-2018, 10:47 AM
WCopeland
Exhibit A - 000663
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 663/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

This is false.

For the top four players (myself included), if my target were 1m points I would put any
amount of money on the line that I could do it at least one in every four serious attempts.

For players capable of 1.1m+ (as Billy claims to be and his tapes allegedly demonstrate), I
would suspect being able to hit 1m at least one in every eight attempts. The difference in
strategy and skill between 1m and 1.1m pace is so great, it's akin to relearning how to play the
entire game. Going back to a "mere" 1m is mind-numbingly easy for any 1.1m+ player. When
I was in the low 1.1m's, I once played in a tournament where I got 1m on my first coin drop.

My point: I would seriously question the authenticity of ANY 1.1m+ DK player who had
trouble hitting 1m on a few credits in a comfortable playing environment, regardless of how
long of a break they've taken from the game. 1m and 1.1m are such a different level of skill,
getting a 1m score for a 1.1m player should be like a Sunday stroll in the park.

03-12-2018, 12:05 PM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

For players capable of 1.1m+ (as Billy claims to be and his tapes allegedly demonstrate), I
would suspect being able to hit 1m at least one in every eight attempts.

If only there was some kind of a semi-annual event where Billy could go and play Donkey
Kong on a neutral machine, in front of a live audience. Perhaps such an event would last all
weekend and Billy could sit there making attempt after attempt. If something like that existed
then we could put an end to all this "Billy scoring a million live today" talk.

On a completely separate note, is there an estimated date for the release of Billy's videos? I
seem to recall a couple of weeks ago Jace saying they would be available but I have yet to see
a link.

03-12-2018, 12:12 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

On a completely separate note, is there an estimated date for the release of Billy's videos? I

Exhibit A - 000664
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 664/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

seem to recall a couple of weeks ago Jace saying they would be available but I have yet to see
a link.

They seem to be taking their time, it is a little troubling. Seems like they are trying their
hardest to show Billy didn't cheat.

03-12-2018, 12:37 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

RTM REPLY - isn't there already such an event called a "Kong Off" ? And are not all the
machines in conjunction with that event supposed to be "neutral", or is that not the case ? He
has showed up at the event and I do not think he hit a million yet at the event.

03-12-2018, 12:48 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

...
Bill made demands over the years for TG to act on and out-rightly reject world record
submissions made by gamers which beat either his own personal record score or those of his
good friends. It is with that and everything else collectively that I said what I did.

Bill needs to be held to the same standards that he held everyone else to. No more, no less.

while this speaks more to character, and isnt an absolute proof, I do think its huge. One way
to cheat is claim you did better than you did. Another way to cheat though is play within the
rules, yet sabotage your opponent. Think of a figure skater breaking her opponents legs. She
could go on to skate completley within the rules, the win would be considered a cheat if she
only got the one by removing the competition unfairly.

Its important to remember billy wasnt going for the score just for a personal achievement, but
to be the best in the world. So it is very relevant not just how he played, but how he treated
others in the competition. If he was willing to cheat by falsely removing competitors scores I
see no reason to doubt he'd cheat in another way.

So to that end, I agree this is very relevant, if it can be proven. Are there provable examples
of billy trying to remove scores valid simply because they beat him or someone he liked?

03-12-2018, 01:27 PM
RTM

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000665
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 665/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Are there provable examples of billy trying to remove scores valid simply because they beat
him or someone he liked?

RTM REPLY - most definitely, and this is well documented...

1st - Bill AND Chris tried to strong-arm TG into not accepting Abdner Ashman's new world
record on "Ms Pacman" even after an industry expert validated Abdner's boardset (at my
personal expense)

2nd - Billy also tried to get TG/Walter/myself NOT to recognize Steve Wiebe's 1.006M
submission as being "the first million" stating that he (Bill) himself had done so as much as a
year earlier though never formally submitted it to TG. He subsequently DID get us to
postpone accepting Steve's score based on the "gummy substance" finding by Brian Kuh.
Here, Billy and possibly Chris as well told us that the presence of the substance had a
"cooling effect" on the processor based on its exact positioning thereby subtly altering the
game clock thus giving Steve a competitive edge.

So yes, there were documented examples...I know as I was directly involved with both and
have chronicled these within the TG forum and elsewhere on numerous occasions. Brien King
can corroborate the Abdner story as the two of us AND Walter had discussed the matter with
Abdner in private at the ACAM 2005 event immediately prior to the board testing, and I
believe that he was also privy to all of the goings-on surrounding the simultaneous 1M
submissions by Bill and Steve in Jul-Aug of 2004.

03-12-2018, 01:58 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

I'm hoping this is sarcasm, because it's happening this weekend - Kong Off 6 at Arcade Expo
4.0 in Banning, featuring Billy and Steve Weibe, as well as Robbie and other high-level
players.

And now, for something more philosophical - for better or worse, despite what moral
questions may still exist in such an event, a performance by Billy at KO6 which bests any of
these scores and previous performances that are currently in question would resolve the
dispute. A new score legitimately achieved, cannot be ignored by TG or DKF. A choice to do
so would unfortunately compromise the legitimacy of any leaderboard refusing to list a
legitimately achieved score. A new higher score renders the previous scores essentially non-
existent or at least not worth any more time and energy.

Now, the conversation may continue, in the interest of proving there was cheating in general,
and the result could be a conclusion that yes cheating occurred, and maybe a result of that will
be stripping Billy of all his scores or re-performing all...except this one new DK score which
was confirmed to be legitimately achieved.
Exhibit A - 000666
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 666/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Just some hypotheticals here...

03-12-2018, 02:02 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

I'm hoping this is sarcasm, because it's happening this weekend - Kong Off 6 at Arcade Expo
4.0 in Banning, featuring Billy and Steve Weibe, as well as Robbie and other high-level
players.

Just some hypotheticals here...

If he is proven to have cheated he should be banned from submitting new scores. Even scores
that are performed live. The dude put himself as a pillar of the community acting as a
"gaming god". If he cheated he needs to be removed.

03-12-2018, 02:25 PM
JDW
Billy Mitchell Score Dispute Response Exhibit A

After 39 days since being told about the allegation of Billy playing MAME instead of an
Arcade machine, TEAM Billy responds with a technical video which has some rather
interesting points made by an expert long-employed in the field.

Here is "Exhibit A", a visual findings video:

https://youtu.be/s9gAPW9IQpU

03-12-2018, 02:30 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDW

Here is "Exhibit A", a visual findings video:

https://youtu.be/s9gAPW9IQpU Exhibit A - 000667
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 667/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

listening to now. In the meantime, can this be uploaded permanently to TG? I dont want to
violate copyrights, but with permission i'd upload it myself if general permission can be
given.

03-12-2018, 02:40 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Right, but if no decision comes before a new score, then the stance from Camp Billy becomes
"I did it then, I've done it now, case closed." And that's kind of hard to refute. I'm not saying it
will be a good outcome, just saying it's a potential outcome.

03-12-2018, 02:43 PM
maximumsteve
Billy Mitchell Technical Dispute Findings and Opinions (Visual Version)

Watch and Listen...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9gA...ature=youtu.be

03-12-2018, 02:46 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

I'm hoping this is sarcasm, because it's happening this weekend - Kong Off 6 at Arcade Expo
4.0 in Banning, featuring Billy and Steve Weibe, as well as Robbie and other high-level
players.

Just some hypotheticals here...

I do think that DK Forum did indicate that they would assess any future score from Billy on
its own merits. In the case of TG, we will have to await their stance. Repeated cheating has
qualified gamers for a lifetime ban in the past, and if the allegations prove true, that would be
a three-peat for Billy. If a banned gamer achieves a legitimate score, they are simply barred

Exhibit A - 000668
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 668/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

from ever submitting it to TG. In that vein, it will always remain an "unofficial" score from
TG's view.

03-12-2018, 02:52 PM
J.C. Harrist
1 Attachment(s)

This is a still from the video with the arcade board going through the two-bit converter:

Attachment 52577

03-12-2018, 02:53 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

This is a still from the video with the arcade board going through the two-bit converter:

Attachment 52577

Yea, the video he posted with him showing the set up actually showed how arcade should
look. This doesn't look like billy's videos at all.

03-12-2018, 03:05 PM
foddon

Seems like he should've spent more time understanding what makes the MAME transitions
unique.

03-12-2018, 03:08 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

Watch and Listen...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9gA...ature=youtu.be

that was amazing he actually shows the proof billy cheated, then his statements contradict
what was on screen and he just claims it shows billy played on arcade. I sure hope this video
doesnt disappar. thx again team billy for accidentally implicating billy further

03-12-2018, 03:29 PM
Snowflake

To go into more detail, Carlos spends a great deal of time debunking claims noone made. I
have no doubt he has great tech skills, but all the things he debunked were things noone said,
so he failed to hurt the argument against billy one bit. He dunked false ideas that we all
alreayd know are false, just a huge strawman. He does lie about wes, and i'll say lie instead of
mistake or strawman and explain why in more details below.

Yes, if you have direct feed and an arcade, and put both TVs side by side and then film with a
camera, the camera may make one appear to be ahead of the other when it isnt. Camera's
getting one side quicker than the other of course doesnt explain what's meant by "drawn out
of order". I've been thinking how to break this further. Team billy if you're reading this pay
Exhibit A - 000669
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 669/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

attention, because even your tech fails to grasp it. Here's what people mean by out of order,
consider this analogy of writing my name
Snowflake
now, in correct order you'd see
S
Sn
Sno
Snow... (well you see where i'm going with this.

frames swapped could make

Sn
S
Sno
Snow...

camera issues might even make

(blank)
n
no
now... (notice how the camera missed the S, as it scanned from an earlier moment but caught
the later stuff)

what billy had was more like

owf
owfla
nowflak
snowflake

This is whats meant by out of order. Not delay, not frames swapper, not even missing a
portion due to camera capture. No, what's actually being talked about is some images
appearing that should never appear. Individaul elements being drawn out of order, not one
portion of the screen being drawn sooner than expected.

So in addition to the huge waste of time of Carlos debunking claims that noone made and
falsely claiming thats the evidence against billy (which isnt necessarily a lie, he may just not
have read the dispute and is going by word of mouth) he does briefly make some other points.

he shows's wes arcade, and explains how its like billy's -- its not. Here's the weird thing
though, all his other claims that were technically accurate, he was very careful to show
images side by side and really prove things. For claiming wes's arcade was like billy's ---
which would be HUGE he leaves out comparing images and just states their the same? The
indicates to me not just an error but an intent to decieve.

Carlos makes another slam dunk point, if true. He claims anyone in a game of donkey kong
would eventually have a screen like billy's, yet never shows that happen. This point alone
would end the entire dispute. So if Carlos really believes this, why not do it? He didnt just
claim it could happen, but rather that it will happen to everyone. If its that easy to reproduce
why not reproduce it? I dont believe for one second he honestly thinks such compelling of
defense of billy is so easy to prove yet just never got around to providing it. Thats not a
mistake, thats intentional.

03-12-2018, 03:35 PM
Blackflag82

Exhibit A - 000670
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 670/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

So what we have is more of the same but now in video form...I really can't tell if the Billy
supporters don't get what is being said the problem is or are being willfully ignorant. If you
claim you've read through all the forums and then create a 30 minute video that doesn't
address the primary issues at hand within the dispute, but rather addresses a bunch of issues
that have no bearing on the claims it would seem you should have spent more time reading
and studying the forum and less time making a video.

03-12-2018, 03:46 PM
YesAffinity

Yeah, that was kinda funny although I would like my 32 minutes back.

We now have lots more evidence of what an arcade game should look like through a camera,
and it reinforces our existing understanding of the "shutter" effect when a camera is recording
the screen, but does not speak in any way to the "swipe" or "sliding door" effect which is
specific to arcade direct capture (and lack thereof in Billy's tapes). Also to that point, what is
provided in the video as excerpts from Billy's gameplay that weren't considered by others and
clearly show the swipe affect, appear to be camera shutter effect. It's hard to know what the
source of the Billy tape in this video is, but would be good to know if that also exists on the
tapes Twin Galaxies has.

We have also learned for the first time that a USB PC capture device was used. Did I miss
something, or is this the first time we've learned this? Sadly, however, it doesn't seem the true
critical information of what a direct feed on the alleged complete setup looks like, has yet
been provided. To that same point, hasn't the story until now been that the gameplay was
recorded directly using a VCR? I believe Billy stated that was one of the key pieces of going
"above and beyond" with his submissions, along with witnessed gameplay, crowd of 100's,
another camera recording the room.

I think it's worth noting that Carlos referred to a frame as lasting for 2/3 of a second. That's a
pretty big miss especially considering it was repeated multiple times. Depending on the
recording mechanism, a frame lasts 1/60, 1/30 or 1/24 of a second.

So let's assume everything shown in terms of the setup is true. Then, how did it get from the
PC that it was captured on to a video tape? There's been previous speculation of PC playback
and direct recording to a VCR. In that case, as I've shown through plenty of examples of
captured gameplay, we would still see the shudder effect. But we don't.

03-12-2018, 03:52 PM
Snowflake

so now the @JDW claiming to represent team billy has shown video which doesnt prove
anything conclusively either way, shows zero evidence billy's footage came from arcade, but
does actually have further evidence (not proof but evidence) against billy (admittedly while
claiming it helps billy. but dont just listen to Carlos' words, watch the video, his words are in
stark contrast to the actual evidence he presents), can Joel West and Carlos be thanked for
helping prove billy cheated?

03-12-2018, 04:08 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Exhibit A - 000671
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 671/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

He uses the shutter effect caused by an external camera recording an arcade monitor, and that
also existing in the youtube video used for the monologue, as proof that Billy's video is from
an arcade camera. The logic is wrong, and yeah, completely misses the point of the dispute.
The only thing proven is that the youtube video he used as a reference point is that of an
external camera recording playback of some sort.

What bothers me the most, is the alleged capture setup is there and complete, but in no way
was gameplay captured with said setup used in any of the comparisons. I mean, it's right
there...friggin' show us what it looks like when you capture with it!

03-12-2018, 04:09 PM
YesAffinity

*Billy's video is from an arcade cabinet.

03-12-2018, 04:30 PM
The Evener

In a nutshell, Carlos concludes that the 1.047 footage cited by Xelnia as MAME is an arcade
output due to the (poor?) quality and the cut-offs, whereas MAME would be "nice and clean."
He was also surprised that Xelnia chose the MAME-like transition for the 1.047 evidence
since the fuller two hour video is, in his words, "full of arcade transitions." It appears that
Carlos is asserting that it's not surprising to find MAME transitions with a two hour arcade-
output recording.

https://youtu.be/s9gAPW9IQpU?t=27m8s

"When it comes to the tech side, this [the 1.047 recording on YouTube that Xelnia cited in the
dispute] is an arcade output, just by the errors and all the discolorization from the converter
trying to convert what is a different resolution, frame rate, through a converter, making it
NTSC, and the recordings, many of the recorders are are cameras aimed at a screen."

And to echo YesAffinity - Interesting addition to the evidence - Carlos reveals that Robert
Childs allegedly direct captured Billy's DK arcade play into a laptop, and not straight into a
VCR. Carlos shows us the laptop with the original capture software used in 2010 as well as
the Gigaware composite device, which was purchased at Radio Shack at the time. I'm not sure
why Robert or Billy didn't reveal this far earlier since TG has been acquiring equipment to
replicate the direct feed set-up.

https://youtu.be/s9gAPW9IQpU?t=8m24s

03-12-2018, 04:32 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Exhibit A - 000672
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 672/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

..
What bothers me the most, is the alleged capture setup is there and complete, but in no way
was gameplay captured with said setup used in any of the comparisons. I mean, it's right
there...friggin' show us what it looks like when you capture with it!

well yes, i think i said it as part of my earlier comment but i'll repeat it. If he honestly
believed what he was saying then why not show more. He claimed @Wes copeland's game
looked like billys (a pretty big deal) but then did not show both side by side -- why not. He
claimed anyone video would eventually look like billy's but then never showed that. Rather
than spend 30 minutes going into extreme detail on things that noone has debated he could've
spend a few seconds to prove these things if he really believed them.

The lack of showing wes's screen side by side with billy's tells me he knows it wasnt the
same. I am not challenging Carlos' knowledge, experience or skills. I'm challenging his
honesty. The wes claim was an outright lie, not a lack of knowedge or skill, not an honest
mixup, a lie.

Apparently its not enough for bily to destroy his own reputation, he has to get others to put
their reputation on the line for him and drag them down too. I hope his other supporters are
paying attention to how Billy sets up his friends for humiliation just on the off chance the plan
might work.

03-12-2018, 04:46 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

https://youtu.be/s9gAPW9IQpU?t=8m24s

Seems like a stall tactic from Billy and company. I don't consider this carlos guy as part of
Billy's team. He is a fan who thought he knew what was going on but was just analyzing
youtube videos.

03-12-2018, 06:09 PM
YesAffinity

This is what I get for posting from work. :/

Meant to say:

*In that case, as I've shown through plenty of examples of captured gameplay, we would still
see the sliding door effect in the Billy recordings. But we don't.

03-12-2018, 06:12 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s) Exhibit A - 000673
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 673/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Seems like a stall tactic from Billy and company. I don't consider this carlos guy as part of
Billy's team. He is a fan who thought he knew what was going on but was just analyzing
youtube videos.

Agreed - he offered his analysis of the evidence, and of course it is welcome.

Picking up on the Gigabit converter revelation, Robert and Billy continue to dig themselves a
deeper hole the longer this goes on.

I think it's safe to say that the Robert Childs' videos depicting "live" arcade play on 31 July
2010 are widely discredited, underlined by Robert's reported confession that the PCB swap
was staged...

But we're now supposed to believe that Robert direct captured the DK playback into his
laptop, and then immediately recorded the session back onto VHS tape? Remember that we're
told that Todd has been entrusted with the video tapes of Billy's high scores:

https://youtu.be/UvdrEgk2l6g?t=32s

So now we're led to believe that instead of recording straight to a VCR, Robert actually
captured directly to his laptop, and THEN from there immediately sent an output to a VCR to
produce a tape, all on-site. What purpose would the laptop capture serve in this scenario
except to add a completely unnecessary step?

Part of the problem besides the head-scratching logistics is the fact that the Gigabit device in
question is billed as a VHS-to-DVD converter - hook up your VCR to the device, and record
your VHS tapes onto the computer, where you can then burn DVDs. After it's on the laptop, it
doesn't make any sense to take that digital file and output it to a borderline obsolete format
instead of burning that DVD.

To compound that, the device itself only has input capability as far as I can see, so we may be
waiting for the revelation of the VGA-to-composite video converter to make the Boomer
tapes?

But look at the bright side - Robert or Billy can submit the digital copy of the 1.062 game
captured on the laptop and clear everything up.

Attachment 52593

03-12-2018, 06:22 PM
J.C. Harrist
1 Attachment(s)

Another still from the video. This clearly shows that the Two Bit Score RGB to NTSC
converter does not change the way an arcade board draws the screen. It also shows that the
orientation is not "flipped".

Attachment 52594

03-12-2018, 07:09 PM
YesAffinity
Exhibit A - 000674
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 674/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Good catch evener. How could a score have just been achieved and captured with a Usb pc
capture device and then played back and recorded to a vhs tape which is right there in the bag,
when it would take 2+ hours to create the tape? And presumably the donkey Kong tape was
being created from the plaulyback while the Usb device was simultaneously capturing the dk
Jr game play. And all of this transfer feom pc to tape was being done in the middle of the
arcade. Surely we have witnesses to that cuz that's not a normal every day event I the middle
of an arcade. But then again, wasn't analog recordings the mandate at the time for all TG
submissions and especially for DK?

03-12-2018, 07:21 PM
The Evener

There are DVD submissions on the scoreboard for the DK track, dating from 2009 at .

03-12-2018, 10:18 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Seems like a stall tactic from Billy and company. I don't consider this carlos guy as part of
Billy's team. He is a fan who thought he knew what was going on but was just analyzing
youtube videos.

its certainly possible, since billy loves having others speak for him, giving him an out to deny
it later, whos to say. However, the link was first shared here by joel west, with joel describing
it as team billy's response. Joel is a friend of billy's, goes to events with him, like literally with
him, travel companion, and joel and billy came on josh houslanders interview together about
this dispute. Billy sure seems to include Joel in his circle, so with Joel calling it their team's
response, I'm gonna have to view it as such unless billy himself denies Joel's claims

03-13-2018, 01:40 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Seems like a stall tactic from Billy and company. I don't consider this carlos guy as part of
Billy's team. He is a fan who thought he knew what was going on but was just analyzing
youtube videos.

He's definitely part of team Billy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=7kwcIOFsjyU&t=9m53s

03-13-2018, 02:11 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

He's definitely part of team Billy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=7kwcIOFsjyU&t=9m53s

The sad reality of this advent is that since this video does in fact seem to be fooling at least
some onlookers who aren't all that good at visual analysis and/or don't know the ins and outs
Exhibit A - 000675
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 675/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

of video framerates and whatnot, the final verdict from Jace et al will likely have to come in
the form of a video analysis of his own, including at least a brief debunking of the
calculatingly obfuscated observations made in the above video. Easy peasy, of course, but I'd
say necessary. Evidently, even a video that has been deliberately shaped as propaganda is
more effective than all the animated GIFs one might care to assemble.

It is a bit convenient, as others have said, that the above video unavoidably has its own
debunk built-in, thanks to the smoking-gun, black & white nature of the board transitions --
one is exclusive to MAME and one is exclusive to arcade, and never the twain shall meet.

03-13-2018, 05:04 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

He's [Carlos] definitely part of team Billy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=7kwcIOFsjyU&t=9m53s

I saw that after, too. Looks like I was wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

The sad reality of this advent is that since this video does in fact seem to be fooling at least
some onlookers who aren't all that good at visual analysis and/or don't know the ins and outs
of video framerates and whatnot, the final verdict from Jace et al will likely have to come in
the form of a video analysis of his own, including at least a brief debunking of the
calculatingly obfuscated observations made in the above video. Easy peasy, of course, but I'd
say necessary. Evidently, even a video that has been deliberately shaped as propaganda is
more effective than all the animated GIFs one might care to assemble.

Like all the other video evidence offered by Billy supporters in this thread, this video was
very selective in its analysis. I think it's fair to say that there will always be Billy supporters
who are equally selective in their engagement with the full body of MAME evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Yes, in that way Carlos' video hid nothing - everything was there to see, but he simply
asserted that the 1.047 video was obviously arcade and that the 1.047 tape was "full" of
arcade transitions without offering any side-by-side comparisons of said smoking guns. His
revelation that Billy's Boomer scores were direct captured on a laptop only raises new head-
scratching questions and completely obliterates the burned-out narrative foundation that these
scores were performed live at Boomer's and documented by Robert Childs.

03-13-2018, 05:53 AM
q43

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000676
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 676/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

I'm hoping this is sarcasm, because it's happening this weekend

Yeah, sarcasm is kind of hard to read online, I thought about adding "ps see you all in
Banning" at the end but I thought that would make it too obvious. I was just saying that Billy
had multiple opportunities to play live and prove he is capable of a million + point score.
Including just 7 months after he played at Boomers, I watched him play all weekend at the
Kong off 1 in Flemington, his best score for the weekend was 821,200. His best score as far
as I can see at the 5 previous Kong Offs is 901,900.

03-13-2018, 06:29 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

I was just saying that Billy had multiple opportunities to play live and prove he is capable of a
million + point score.

I'm just going to reiterate my concern that this focus on Billy's 2018 capabilities in a post 1.2-
million world is needlessly hazardous. It is not too easy to imagine that anyone who is not
familiar with the specifics of the evidence against Billy, or the reality of evolving Donkey
Kong strategies, would very easily decide that if Billy can manage a million today, then not
only is any further investigation unnecessary, it's redundant; after all, he just scored a million,
right? What difference does it really make that his validity was a little fuzzy ten years ago
when he can clearly do it on command.

I strongly feel that calls for him to do this in public are effectively sanctioning this outcome.

03-13-2018, 07:27 AM
WCopeland
$1000 Bounty for Carlos, Team Billy, et al.

https://i.imgur.com/wj6t4jH.jpg

This problem is exhibited in all of Billy's tapes. Since Billy's position is now that MAME and
Arcade render the same and it's the screen producing this issue, it should be no problem to
take ten minutes and do direct capture from a PCB to show this during barrel board loadup
rasterization.

Anyone who can demonstrate the 4th girder tail consistently on an arcade PCB in a direct
feed capture while posting their complete setup so everyone can reproduce it will have me cut
them a check for $1000. No contracts. No bull****.

To reiterate, here's how you get the money:

Demonstrate it happening consistently on an arcade PCB, like in all of Billy's tapes

which allegedly occurred on different machines/PCBs.
Post your capture setup so we can reproduce it.

Exhibit A - 000677
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 677/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

To date, this has not been substantiated by any defense put forth by Billy or any of his
proxies.

03-13-2018, 07:45 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

https://i.imgur.com/wj6t4jH.jpg

To reiterate, here's how you get the money:

Demonstrate it happening consistently on an arcade PCB, like in all of Billy's tapes

which allegedly occurred on different machines/PCBs.
Post your capture setup so we can reproduce it.

To date, this has not been substantiated by any defense put forth by Billy or any of his
proxies.

why would I listen to you? Carlos already proved you cheated to since your video has the
same issues as billys

sarcasm alert: wes was one of the videos Carlos showed then just outright lied and said it had
the same issue as Billy’s. Some billy earthers are already claiming of billy cheated then so did
wes

03-13-2018, 08:09 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDW

Here is "Exhibit A", a visual findings video:
https://youtu.be/s9gAPW9IQpU

Refresh our collective understanding of the TG rules in place at the time. According to the
above video, the setup used was the two bit converter, fed into a Gigaware composite to USB
capture device into a laptop, playing out (ostensibly through a TV-out port?) into a VCR
machine. This is by no means "direct feed". This is as indirect as you can possibly get, and
opens up a myriad of editing/cheating/faking possibilities between the USB capture and the
Exhibit A - 000678
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 678/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

VCR playout.

Interestingly, this explains the underscan borders (laptop TV-out), incorrect rotation (you can
rotate a video on a PC, easy enough), and possibly more. It also completely disqualifies the
video as proof of anything legitimate, because it opens up too many avenues of tampering.
The only way to "direct feed" to VHS is to directly connect a converter like the two bit board
to a VCR machine. No laptop, no USB capture device.

It does not however explain the distinct MAME girders:

https://i.imgur.com/wj6t4jH.jpg

03-13-2018, 08:24 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

I don't think that the TG rules of the time are relevant. According to those, the video isn't even
needed as Billy's score had dual referee verification. If it was a video submission, then yes,
the video would be dismissed but it wasn't a video submission. As far as I've read, there
doesn't even exist any video for the 1.06m score.

03-13-2018, 08:34 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

The referee verification is by definition invalid because it was Todd Rogers, who is
permanently banned from TG for entering fake scores (what this dispute is about - a fake
score), and his girlfriend who is guilty by association. That leaves video evidence as the only
remaining option to acquit Billy, which has now in my view at least been disqualified by the
use of an unauthorised USB capture device and laptop in a supposedly "direct feed"
processing chain.

Referees: suspect
Exhibit A - 000679
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 679/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Electronic chain of custody: impaired

MAME girder signature: damning

Final verdict: cheater.

03-13-2018, 08:49 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

Referees: suspect
Electronic chain of custody: impaired
MAME girder signature: damning

Final verdict: cheater.

I agree, about the referee. But there is no video evidence for the score being disputed. So
where does that leave us? Basically, there's no good evidence anywhere at all that Billy scored
1.06m

03-13-2018, 09:13 AM
The Evener

There's at least three videos that capture the 1.062 playback set up Billy at the IVGHOF
presentation. In the absence of a direct recording offered from Billy (whether digital file from
the laptop or VHS copy they created) I anticipate that TG will review the existing videos for a
determination.

03-13-2018, 10:27 AM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve

When you hook up a 1980s era Donkey Kong board to a 2000s era RGB to
NTSC converter board and then run it to a 1970s technology VCR for
recording ...
...The converter signal is sent solely to the VCR. ...
...The converter board does its job translating RGB to NTSC which goes to
the VCR and is recorded as the finalized media.
-Robert Childs

According to Mr. Pineiro, "From the composite out you can capture it, now this was the
computer they used to do the capturing, with the same software."

https://youtu.be/s9gAPW9IQpU?t=507
Exhibit A - 000680
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 680/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

So which is it? Was the converter signal sent solely to the VCR? Or was the feed
first captured to a computer?

03-13-2018, 11:14 AM
FBX

I'm still waiting for Jace to show us the infamous 185k transition video from his tape
analyzer. Why has it not been posted yet?

03-13-2018, 01:44 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

I'm still waiting for Jace to show us the infamous 185k transition video from his tape
analyzer. Why has it not been posted yet?

I want to bet that he will show us(crowd at banning,CA) this weekend at the Kong-Off. Jace
knows how to time it for the most exposure.

03-13-2018, 02:34 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

I want to bet that he will show us(crowd at banning,CA) this weekend at the Kong-Off. Jace
knows how to time it for the most exposure.

That sounds suspiciously like how Billy does things.

03-13-2018, 04:48 PM
Robert.F
just thowing this in

Just throing this in it came out yesterday.

Billy Mitchel DK controversy

(hardware tests and
experiments)
https://youtu.be/l32-QCMo-es :)

03-13-2018, 04:55 PM
ionized_fallout

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000681
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 681/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Just throing this in it came out yesterday.

Billy Mitchel DK controversy

(hardware tests and
experiments)
https://youtu.be/l32-QCMo-es :)

Seems like another group of people who do not understand the core of the complaint.

03-13-2018, 05:01 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Just throing this in it came out yesterday.

Billy Mitchel DK controversy

(hardware tests and
experiments)
https://youtu.be/l32-QCMo-es :)

Why are all of Billy's friends posting videos debating the wrong disputes?

03-13-2018, 06:27 PM
YesAffinity

I wish there was a head slap emoji on these boards. Why do people keep insisting on showing
monitors recorded with external cameras? These guys got it wrong x3.

03-13-2018, 07:18 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Why are all of Billy's friends posting videos debating the wrong disputes?

RTM REPLY - Simple misdirection. A barrage of "support" which is rooted in social media
Exhibit A - 000682
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 682/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

is an attempt to sway the masses regardless that it does not, as you put it, address the right
dispute. This is nothing more than a social media tactic. Better to have 10,000 clueless people
see what appears to be positive supporting documentation which is incorrect than to have
even 10 tech-savvy people who know better trying to educate everyone else.

The same tactic exists when the defense introduces character references to sway the jury in
favour of their otherwise quite-guilty client. Doesn't matter if these character references are
only saying the positives and eliminating the negatives...it's what the jury believes after
hearing it all.

Same with a gaming dispute. Billy always has a plan...this must be part of it. He's no fool
when it comes to manipulating social media.

03-13-2018, 07:21 PM
RTM
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

I wish there was a head slap emoji on these boards. Why do people keep insisting on showing
monitors recorded with external cameras? These guys got it wrong x3.

RTM REPLY - someone should make this into an "emoji" for such situations...it pretty much
says it all

Attachment 52642

03-13-2018, 07:43 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - Simple misdirection. A barrage of "support" which is rooted in social media
is an attempt to sway the masses regardless that it does not, as you put it, address the right
dispute. This is nothing more than a social media tactic. Better to have 10,000 clueless people
see what appears to be positive supporting documentation which is incorrect than to have
even 10 tech-savvy people who know better trying to educate everyone else.

Same with a gaming dispute. Billy always has a plan...this must be part of it. He's no fool
when it comes to manipulating social media.

This might surprise you but I agree with every single word of that.

Its clear Team Billy has completely abandoned trying to win the dispute and only cares about
getting high fives from the general publc -- I'm fine with that. This means both sides can win.
Exhibit A - 000683
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 683/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If some kid lies at the arcade to impress his friends what do I care? Billy can trick his buddy's
all he likes, I just care about the scoreboard.

As a sidenote though, Billy might not be as good as manipulating the public as he thinks.
Rememer the east side dave show, how smug he was calling us losers and his "dwayne did it"
angle. You could tell he thought he was winning, and then was shocked that noone thought it
was cute. All this misdirection that his pals thinks is so brilliant, well people arent as stupid as
billy thinks. He obviously thinks everyone except him is an idiot, and thats gonna backfire
too.

Up to now, had they kept their mouth shut people could've said "I'm not a tech maybe there'
something I'm missing", but even non-techs who pay attention will realize the misdirection as
Carlos was going into details that didnt even approach what he claimed he would go into, and
he even outright lied about other players screens. People who dont know tech, but know
people will see these tricks and realize innocent people dont play games like that, games like
that are only used by the guity.

The technical analysis already proved billy a cheater to anyone who could understand it.
Team Billy's response however proved he's a cheater to everyone else. Bravo team billy and a
special thanks to @JDW for giving us the link to Carlos video that inadvertadntly proved
once and for all billy is guilty. Reminds of david race trying to help billy and actually
providing evidence that hurt him, I guess now Carlos is the new David. I cant wait to see what
evidence team billly provides against billy next

03-13-2018, 09:11 PM
Jace Hall

Yesterday I received a PM from a concerned member. This is what it said:

Quote:

You will see a clean transition at the 7:33 mark of this board run. Meaning it's the clean
transition that has been the accusatory claim that "Only" MAME can produce, proving it's
false. Let me know you viewed this. Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKbk...ature=youtu.be

I appreciated the concern expressed, and responded to the inquiry directly through PM -
However it occurred to me that there may be others who may benefit from my response, so I
wanted to share it publicly to help clarify some items as we continue our investigation.

Message below:
https://ibb.co/ktKCNx
Quote:

We have viewed the video at the time you specified. This is definitely not a MAME produced
frame/video. This is clearly an arcade produced frame/video. If it was MAME produced, it
could never have the two smaller girders on screen below the top 3.

MAME versions that existed at the time of Billy's performance will never produce (rasterize)
these extra girders during this frame under any circumstance, only arcade machines will.
There is no camera shutter error or other external capture factor that will allow MAME to
show a screen like this. So we know that the link above showing this recording did not come
from MAME versions that were available at that time.
Exhibit A - 000684
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 684/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

To help you understand the issue better, I have circled the display area that MAME will not
produce. Please see link below:

https://ibb.co/ktKCNx

So far, we have been unable to find this specific arcade only transition screen in any of Billy's
performances. You can feel free to try to find this specific transition screen yourself in the
various youtube postings of Billy's tapes. If you can find it please let me know as that would
be helpful. Look for the extra 2 girders.

To date, what we have been able to repeatedly and easily find throughout Billy's performances
is this transition screen:

https://ibb.co/j05mhx

This seems to exactly match a MAME only rasterization. Here is a matching MAME
example:

https://ibb.co/cqiYUc

The match seems to be quite specific all the way down to the pink/reddish line that extends
from the 3rd bottom girder.

Our current set of testing and findings show that this is a transition screen that an Arcade
machine will never exactly produce under any circumstance. There are always additional
girders being displayed (like in the youtube video you sent me) whenever this moment is
captured on an actual arcade machine (or something fractional due to camera shutter -
but never a MAME transition configuration which only has 3 girders.)

If you go through the entire youtube video you provided, you will not find one instance of
pure 3-girders only transition display. All our testing so far has found this not to be an
accident or random. It is reflective of the fact that an Arcade machine will simply never
display it. You can check 15:47 in the video you provided and you will see again exactly what
an arcade machine will display, the 5 girders, not 3. And again at 19:30, same thing. I must
emphasize that so far we have found that under no circumstance will you see the 3 girder
signature transition from an original Arcade machine. We have only seen that from emulation
(MAME) but we continue to investigate.

Below is a link to a chart of what has been found and confirmed to be exactly displayed with
various versions under perfect conditions. The very bottom is what an Arcade machine will
produce when perfectly captured. With imperfect captures, there are moments where camera
shutter speed can split/frames and show a hybrid of two different frames combined as a single
frame in a sequence, but the hybrid frames are unique to each platform and are distinctive.
There are no hybrid frames that produce the 3-girder transition image that we seem to
continuously find in Billy's performances - the only match that exists so far has been MAME
but we are not complete in the investigation and continue to look at all possibilities.

https://ibb.co/m4JTvH

I hope all that made sense.

Your contributions are always appreciated.

Exhibit A - 000685
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 685/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Warmest,
Jace

https://ibb.co/ktKCNx

If there are any mistakes in the above stated understanding, please feel free to provide
corrective information.

03-13-2018, 09:59 PM
YesAffinity

Just spit balling here but if you want to truly capture arcade hardware on a frame by frame
basis, you would need to genlock the arcade board, an rgbs-to-sdi converter and sdi capture.
The arcade board would have to be used as the signal generator for the genlocking. You
would also need a pc with a massive raid array for capturing uncompressed video at 60fps. No
doubt a pricey setup, but that would get you a true frame for frame capture of arcade board
video output as a true basis for all the comparisons. I'm sure all the 60fps consumer level stuff
that is currently being relied on (including my own) is very close, so there may not be much
to gained from a potentially very expensive set up, but it would give you the clearest picture
of what each frame looks like coming out of the arcade board, to base comparisons off of.

03-13-2018, 10:51 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Genlock is not necessary if your capture system can oversample at 120 or 240fps. Nothing
will be missed.

No need for things to be uncompressed. Lossless compression would be fine for this.

We have all this gear of course. :) However, as we investigate further is looks less and less
like its needed.

03-14-2018, 12:28 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

https://ibb.co/m4JTvH

Worth pointing out that the provided link lacks images of the MAME specimen which
exhibits the "finger" beam.
Exhibit A - 000686
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 686/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I am also compelled to bring up the topic of 30fps/60fps. Billy's videos are of course 30fps.
But most of the other images of Donkey Kong we see, including the MAME and arcade
images in the above link, are from proper 60fps feeds. This is a distinction that is probably
going to have to be talked about sooner or later. As it stands, what happens instead is
continued confusion over the fact that "only some" (half) of the transitions in Billy's videos
exhibit the MAME behavior, not to mention the detail which can be observed in the above
link, where Billy's transitions -- from "How high can you get?" to a complete board -- are
represented by generally half as many frames as the other transitions, without explanation.

So I feel it should be touched upon, followed by purposefully doubling each frame from
Billy's videos in comparison images like the above, with reminders that the footage was half
native framerate and that every other frame was in fact discarded when Billy's video was
originally created.

03-14-2018, 12:37 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Worth pointing out that the provided link lacks images of the MAME specimen which
exhibits the "finger" beam.

Certainly it can be touched upon for a dispute spectator's standpoint, but it is not needed from
a TG perspective. We understand the issue entirely already. Not to worry.

03-14-2018, 12:41 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

You would also need a pc with a massive raid array for capturing uncompressed video at
60fps.

About 1 GB per second, 60 GB per minute, and that's for a potentially redundant DV-slash-
DVD quality capture, 720x480p. Two respectable but ***** SSDs in RAID0. Use lossless
compression and/or lower the quality to something more Donkey Kong-ish to get by with a
single SSD.
Exhibit A - 000687
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 687/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-14-2018, 12:47 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Certainly it can be touched upon for a dispute spectator's standpoint

Yes, that's the point exactly. You're keeping an eye on the latest videos so I believe you've
seen what I'm talking about: People hung up on the fact that Billy's footage is not an exact
match for MAME at all times. Regardless of whether they're legitimately confused or are
there just to muddy the waters with calculated ambiguity, it would definitely be helpful to be
able to say, yes, we've gone over this, here are some easy-to-decipher images.

03-14-2018, 01:19 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

People should understand that the frequency of unique MAME display transitions that take
place in a recording that is supposed to be direct feed original arcade gameplay should be
zero.

Just one single instance would demonstrate non-original arcade gameplay. If Billy's tapes are
MAME then they are in fact an exact match for MAME at all times - the issue is that MAME
and Original arcade gameplay nearly perfectly match each other when recorded to VHS at
30fps, and it will only not match during moments where MAME fails to perfectly emulate the
original hardware. One of these places is the girder transition screen. This is an assertion
being made by the dispute.

An original arcade machine can not produce a MAME transition - at least that is the assertion
being made by this dispute.

One of the things we are examining carefully is if it is possible for an original arcade machine
to EVER show a transition that exactly matches the transitions that have been asserted by this
dispute claim to be expressly unique to MAME.

The video submitted by Carlos does not demonstrate this possibility.

03-14-2018, 05:28 AM
YesAffinity

Good points about framerate, jace. Can you recommend a capture card capable of higher
framerates?

@Asterra - this is a concern i voiced on day 2, possibly only on dkf tho. I then set about to
capture at 30 fps, 60fps, vcr from direct feed, many camera recordings, post processing some
of the videos further. To echo what Jace said, in no case do the arcade-specific
Exhibittransition
A - 000688
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 688/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

screens disappear from the arcade recordings. From what we have access to, of Billys tapes,
they are COMPLETELY absent. It is good to know that the tapes in possession of TG are also
in alignment with this. I think we've all been anxioulsy awaiting these revelations from TG,
thank Jace for starting to share the findings.

03-14-2018, 05:58 AM
Omnigamer

Most consumer and semi-pro analog PC capture devices operate at variable framerate; they
will capture at exactly the rate the sync signals tell them to. You shouldn't need any variety of
supersampling to capture all frames directly so long as they are within tolerance. I don't know
the exact video output characteristics of DK, but I'm willing to bet full frames are formed
within +-5% of 60 Hz, which any legacy Framegrabber or Yuan card can handle just fine.

03-14-2018, 06:31 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

You need none of this. You only need genlock if you are filming the screen with a 60fps video
camera. Like Jace said, if you oversample the capture frame rate, you don't even need genlock
with a video camera. Nyquist's sampling theorem applies here: the 60hz display signal can be
considered a frequency that you wish to sample with an arbitrary (unsynchronised) discrete
sampling device (the video camera). According to Nyquist, if you double the sampling
frequency (set the video camera to record at 120fps) you will be able to reconstruct the
original 60fps frequency. Jace says they can record at 240fps, so that's a twofold factor of
oversampling over what theory states would be the minimum.

You don't need genlock with direct video capture because by the very nature of how video
capturing works, the video sync signal is the master that the capture device is slaved to. As
long as there is no integrated TBC to conform the frame cadence to perfect NTSC, no input
frames will be lost. RGB frame grabbers are a good example of this, as they make no
assumptions about the origin of the video signal, and support variable input frame rates
between 23 and 120fps. One of my arcade boards runs at 61.68Hz, and has a scrolling text
banner in the attract mode which very clearly shows skipping if the signal is conformed to
59.940fps. My frame grabber hardware can correctly capture all frames at the original frame
rate with zero skips. Hardware like it is available for $50 on eBay.

I won't go into the raid array nonsense because it's too obviously incorrect to devote any more
words to than necessary.

03-14-2018, 07:05 AM
YesAffinity
Exhibit A - 000689
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 689/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

^Thanks for the recommendation. Clearly I was overthinking it.

03-14-2018, 08:25 AM
francoisadt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

60GB is not the correct estimated disk space. I do not see why RAID is needed. One do not
need a huge setup to make this work at all.

See my calculation below.

To clarify the calculation:

720 × 480 pixels × 3 bytes per pixel × 60 frames per second ÷
(1024 × 1024 bytes per megabyte)
â‰… 59.32 MB/s

Per minute: 59.32 x 60 seconds x 1 = 3559.2 ÷ 1024 = 3.48 GB

For a two hour game:

Total data = 59.32 MB/s × 60 seconds per minute × 120 minutes ÷
(1024 megabytes per gigabyte) â‰… 417 GB.

An 1/8th of a 4TB.

Just the HDD need to be fast enough.

03-14-2018, 08:46 AM
YesAffinity
1 Attachment(s)

So, I guess where I was coming from with the notion of genlock and RAID arrays and SDI
uncompressed capture, which clearly I was way off base on (and had admittedly drank too
much Mt. Dew yesterday) - was curiosity about the "swipe" effect. To me, this represents a
transition between one frame and the next, that is a result of the conversion/output/capture not
being perfectly synced with the output from the game board, and the resulting "frame" that we
see here is actually a capture of the transition between two frames. Here again, maybe I'm off
base, but I'm curious nonetheless. Does the hardware actually produce a single frame that
looks like this?

Also, back to @Asterra 's curiosity, this particular screenshot is taken from a direct feed that
was recorded to VHS, with the region switch on the RGB-to-NTSC encoder accidentally set
to PAL. My VCR is NTSC. The VHS tape was then played back and captured at 60fps. One
example of how the signal is being "mis-handled" a bit, and then put through some additional
processing, yet still retains these arcade-unique transitional frames that will never appear in a
MAME recording. Lots of recordings of various flavors on my youtube channel, which I
Exhibit A - 000690
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 690/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

created for the very reason of having lots of basis for comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/user/NoAffin...view=0&sort=dd

Attachment 52690

03-14-2018, 09:35 AM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

So, I guess where I was coming from was curiosity about the "swipe" effect. To me, this
represents a transition between one frame and the next, that is a result of the
conversion/output/capture not being perfectly synced with the output from the game board,
and the resulting "frame" that we see here is actually a capture of the transition between two
frames.

You're close to the truth, but ultimately incorrect. It is a result of the scanout hardware (the
RAMDAC) of the DK board not being synchronised with the DK board's internal frame
buffer. Meaning, the frames are split inside the DK board before being sent out. You cannot
do anything about it short of modifying the DK board itself.

It's a curious hardware design for sure, and something you don't see in affordable home
computers and game consoles of the era-- there the scanout was an integral part of the
graphics processor (GPU or PPU), which would draw sprites or tiles directly scanline by
scanline, instead of assembling a frame into a frame buffer to be read by a RAMDAC, which
is a design that would only become ubiquitous by the mid-to-late nineties.

03-14-2018, 09:45 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

So, the short answer is: yes, that "transitional frame" that I posted a screenshot of, is actually
spit out from the game board?

03-14-2018, 09:46 AM
The Evener

@maximumsteve given your past role in conveying comments to Robert Childs and posting
his technical explanation of the direct feed set up used for Billy's Boomer scores, could you
ask him to sort out how we're supposed to treat Carlos' assertion concerning laptop use in the
direct capture of those high scores? Robert himself made repeated references to using a direct
Exhibit A - 000691
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 691/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

feed set up he created and supervised at Boomers that went from the cab/Two Bit card to
VCR for recording - he made no mention of using a Gigaware peripheral or laptop that Carlos
cites. He also made no mention of the Gigaware peripheral when he widely advertised his
copy of the receipt for the Two Bit card. The more I reflect on such a combersome set up, the
more inclined I am to disregard Carlos' explanation as a confusing mistake. Could Robert
weigh in to clear up the documentary record?

03-14-2018, 10:40 AM
Muf
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

So, the short answer is: yes, that "transitional frame" that I posted a screenshot of, is actually
spit out from the game board?

Correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

@maximumsteve given your past role in conveying comments to Robert Childs and posting
his technical explanation of the direct feed set up used for Billy's Boomer scores, could you
ask him to sort out how we're supposed to treat Carlos' assertion concerning laptop use in the
direct capture of those high scores? Robert himself made repeated references to using a direct
feed set up he created and supervised at Boomers that went from the cab/Two Bit card to
VCR for recording - he made no mention of using a Gigaware peripheral or laptop that Carlos
cites. He also made no mention of the Gigaware peripheral when he widely advertised his
copy of the receipt for the Two Bit card. The more I reflect on such a combersome set up, the
more inclined I am to disregard Carlos' explanation as a confusing mistake. Could Robert
weigh in to clear up the documentary record?

Actually it's more likely Robert is lying than Carlos. The PCB swap video shows a laptop
with a screen that exactly resembles the capture software shown by Carlos in his video:

Attachment 50945

Attachment 52692

People have been wondering what the laptop would've been used for at Boomers, and Carlos
explains both the presence of the laptop as well as the software running on it that can be
briefly seen during a camera pan.

03-14-2018, 03:56 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muf

Correct.

Exhibit A - 000692
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 692/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Actually it's more likely Robert is lying than Carlos. The PCB swap video shows a laptop
with a screen that exactly resembles the capture software shown by Carlos in his video:

Attachment 50945

Attachment 52692

I would call that similar not an exact match. You can't really tell.

03-14-2018, 04:11 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I would call that similar not an exact match. You can't really tell.

didnt the boardswap video show no wires coming out? so any direct feed was already inside
the cabinet at the time. The laptop was outside. Likely hooked up to broadcast the mame
recording elsewhere

03-14-2018, 04:22 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

didnt the boardswap video show no wires coming out? so any direct feed was already inside
the cabinet at the time. The laptop was outside. Likely hooked up to broadcast the mame
recording elsewhere

In theory could the laptop output to the arcade monitor?

03-14-2018, 04:47 PM
Robert.F

Jace post was interesting to read in going in to full detail of the mater at hand bravo :)

Billy new buddy blowing smoke and in the processes he inadvertently proved that the
two bit converter didn't make a pcb look like mame ,,, and now there a new twist Billy
new buddy added to the story,,,, a converter that goes from componit video to usb for
a computer to capture and make digital file hmmm ... can you please put more
mustard on this baloney sandwich

03-14-2018, 05:05 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

hmmm ... can you please put more mustard on this baloney sandwich
Exhibit A - 000693
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 693/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM REPLY - Sounds like a plan...must be Billy's plan :)

03-14-2018, 05:26 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

â‰… 59.32 MB/s

Truth. My only excuse for saying 60 GB instead of MB is that it was early morning hours and
I've been capturing HD+ streams for so long that I am no longer used to such low bitrates.
Carry on.

03-14-2018, 05:44 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

In theory could the laptop output to the arcade monitor?

Yes

https://youtu.be/--XmPOnwvWU

03-14-2018, 06:26 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

This might surprise you but I agree with every single word of that.
As a sidenote though, Billy might not be as good as manipulating the public as he thinks.
Rememer the east side dave show, how smug he was calling us losers

Carry on.

03-14-2018, 06:31 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I would like to add some clarity to that. The people he was referring to was not the general
gamer audience, or even most of his critics. His Lonley Loser Club insult was aimed at
Patrick P. Pimplestump and Cat "Queen of the Undead" Despair....possibly with one or two
Exhibit A - 000694
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 694/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

known miscreants thrown in.

Carry on.

Thats funny, because his boy dave called jeremy by name a snake. He was criticizing anyone
who dared challenge his score. Yes he called out those other two as well, but dont delude
yourself, his insults included more than just them.

03-14-2018, 06:41 PM
Snowflake

Also, please sure me anywhere, anywhere at all in this dispute where PSP or cat made a single
comment? Which one of them started this dispute? Which one of then provided the mame
analysis? oh yeah, thats right, they have nothing to do with this, Billy trying to talk about psp
and cat as being behind this dispute is just more billy misdirection. Oh, if you think billy
cheated it must mean you're on the LLC's side. I know Billy has an unhealhty with PSP and
cant last long without bringing up his name "oh man, its raining out, PSP and CAT must've
done to me", but this one isnt them. As much as billy wants to believe those two are the
source of his of all his problems, this problem came entirely of his own doings.

03-14-2018, 06:43 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I don't know who his boy Dave is. I suppose Dave can call a dump in texas a happy home,
doesn't mean it is true or that Billy endorses itl

Do you have proof his Lonely Loser Club was for more than about 4-5 people?

03-14-2018, 06:46 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Sorry to tell you this, but you are making it sound like you are familiar with Billy's thoughts.
Pattycakes and Meowmix have been gunning for Billy for years. Sure, they did not open the
dispute and are too cowardly to come here and spill their beans, but don't kid yourself. They
are gloating and laughing, lighting cigars etc. over the prospect of Billy getting his scores
removed.
Exhibit A - 000695
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 695/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-14-2018, 06:49 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I don't know who his boy Dave is. I suppose Dave can call a dump in texas a happy home,
doesn't mean it is true or that Billy endorses itl

Do you have proof his Lonely Loser Club was for more than about 4-5 people?

I would typically agree we arent responsobile for others say, however Billy has been
purposely speaking through his others. He wouldnt give an interview to more legit news
sources unless richie was on the phone. Look, the evidence, thats handled at court of law level
proof. The insults and publicrelations, well thats handled very differently. Billy can play his
game all he wants where he insults us and falls back on some technical vagueity or uses his
buddy to do it for him, doesnt matter, not working.

So yes, Billy does bare some responsbility for his boy east side dave consiering he turned
down other interviwes and made a point to give it to him, he wanted people to hear dave's
interview, not a reasonable interviewer who would've never said those things. When he
purposely picks a guy like dave he's letting us know who he wants speaking for him. He
picked Carlos, so yes he's responsible for Carlos' lies about Wes and others also have the same
issues as Billy. Billy can play any yellow bellied games he wants hiding behind others, but the
things is, he wants us to feel insulted and then wants to be able to deny it, not happening.

of course, billy's extreme offesniveness aside, back to the evidence, the dude is a cheater and
a liar. Its been proven, all we're waiting for is TG to acknoweldge the proof

03-14-2018, 06:54 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

i'm sure they are, good for them. I'm sure billy screwed over a lot of people who are now
gunning for him, thats what happens when cheat people for years. Whats that have to do with
anything here? Why is billy's response to the dispute to talk about them and imply their
behind it? All of them are obsessed with each other. I'm not acting like i'm reading billy's
mind, i'm going by his words. He's blaming them for stuff they had nothing to do with. For
some weird reason the dude is obsessed with them, i cant read his mind, I cant tell you billy's
source of obsession with psp, all i can do is hear his words and notice how unhealthily
obsessed he is.

03-14-2018, 09:58 PM
paramylodon
1 Attachment(s)

Exhibit A - 000696
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 696/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I had a question that I decided to answer myself. We've all been talking about the "hanging
girder" problem, but I've only seen the hanging girder in Jeremy's gifs (e.g.
https://ibb.co/cqiYUc). I tried looking up on youtube examples of earlier version of MAME
DK videos but I couldn't find anything to back up Jeremy's hanging girder gif, though I did
see plenty of examples of "three girder" MAME rasterization.

So I downloaded MAME 0.116 and took a video of some DK gameplay. I don't have any
good video recording software currently, so I just used PowerPoint to record a video, but it
does show the frame in question. The video has terrible framerate, but it fulfills it's purpose.

I figured if I had the question, others might too. Data should always be reproducible and this
reproduces Jeremy's gif.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXqG...ature=youtu.be ("hanging girder" at 3:09)

Still of frame in question: Attachment 52783

03-15-2018, 12:02 AM
lexmark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

of course, billy's extreme offesniveness aside, the dude is a cheater and a liar.

Nice true post, Bill!

john

03-15-2018, 01:21 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I tried looking up on youtube examples of earlier version of MAME DK videos but I couldn't
find anything to back up Jeremy's hanging girder gif, though I did see plenty of examples of
"three girder" MAME rasterization.

You probably already know this, but it's because the "finger" anomaly occurs only in certain
MAME revisions. Not the first ones (I think), not the last ones, but some of those in the
middle of the devs' efforts to iron out Donkey Kong emulation.

The most comprehensive analysis of this phenomenon I've yet seen remains Xelnia's original
post. As you note, most of the MAME version GIFs in that post feature a frame that has three
beams only, with the first and second beam complete, and the third beam in varying states of
incompleteness. One might reasonably observe that the MAME version Billy elected to use
for his videos was ultimately fortuitous for proving he did it, since the "finger" is so
distinctive that even the most casual observer of this dispute can very easily recognize it.
Obviously it wouldn't matter which MAME version he used for the sake of TG's conclusion,
but it never hurts to have bluntly incontrovertible evidence.
Exhibit A - 000697
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 697/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-15-2018, 02:21 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Yes

https://youtu.be/--XmPOnwvWU

They have the game saved on the computer. They output the game to the monitor and use the
VCR to record the video the computer is outputting to the cabinet monitor while Billy mimes
the gameplay?

03-15-2018, 07:13 AM
BenMullen
DataGod

Get it together.

This... You, are why we can't have nice things!

I feel like I just have to keep saying that once in a while.

This thread is a score dispute for a Donkey Kong Game, not a good opportunity for you to
make sure everyone knows the 2 people you don't like. Go splash some cold water in your
face and get it together.

03-15-2018, 07:35 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

They have the game saved on the computer. They output the game to the monitor and use the
VCR to record the video the computer is outputting to the cabinet monitor while Billy mimes
the gameplay?

In theory, and that would certainly account for how VHS tapes were immediately available
after a 2+ hour performance that was supposedly captured to PC. Then again, the tapes may
have already been recorded, before the event even took place.

03-15-2018, 08:38 AM
francoisadt

Hi Robert

I disagree with your statement below.

if Billy's cheated (which we hope TG has the "guts" to make the right decision).

It could be that TG will have basic in essence three choices:

1) Proof Billy possibly "could have" cheated but other defenses as Jace has posted which
point in a neutral stand - Only remove Billy's Dk score but keep his "Video Game Player of
the Century" and "First Person to have Perfect Pac-Man" credentials.
Exhibit A - 000698
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 698/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

2) Proof Billy cheated outright, remove all his score and credentials as player of the century
and perfect pac-man credentials
3) Cannot proof, or do not really want to proof Billy cheated, seek other means to justify
evidence of MAME game-play, where a laptop would not be able to process in the time-frame
given since when the game ends till when the TAPE/VIDEO is available to process such copy.

if TG do remove Billy's score he cannot claim in court that this now hurts his business or that
he was used as a pawn to built TG or his hot sauce "(perfectly made like in perfect pac-man)"
was marketed using his credentials because he himself has made conscious decisions having
"prerecorded game playback as live". It is like someone conduct a premeditated murder.
Planned. So consequences follow.

So someone can be a thief for 30 years and when he got caught, plea-bargain, sorry I have
been building my business doing this?

So the character and decisions others like Walter also contribute to a perception to treat others
far above the norm because he is so special?

There are many perfect pac-man players today and many DK screen killers what about other
game achievers.

Let you give you one classic arcader example: What about John McAllister. He got on
Asteroids which I only have seen one other
person (he lives stay here in South Africa) that can match or beat him, playing at the same
level he do, maybe the difference will only by a few thousands points. How long his records
have been unbeaten or matched? Did he ever get credit? Same with Eric Ginner, Current
players Donald Hayes, Martin Bedard, I think should have such a title of "arcade gamer of the
decade or a period" (whatever.. credential chosen).

if one do have the time and put your mind to it ALL Billy's record of back-then can surpassed
and beaten by one gamer. is he/she now the new "arcade gamer of the century" ?

So I think this is the time building new legacies, there are more than enough good examples
where TG can proof we did built
a track record of record keeping which was sincere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Should Billy's score be removed, think of the negative PR impact it will have on someone
who for the better part of 35 years has been riding high on the social media "legacy" created
by this score and some others. Heck, should it happen then he can potentially "claim" that a
score removal indirectly results in a drop in business at his restaurants. Whether such would
carry any legal weight in the court system remains to be seen...it could outright be thrown out
Exhibit A - 000699
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 699/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

as a waste of the court system's time and money, or it could actually go to the next step.

03-15-2018, 10:42 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

Hi Robert

I disagree with your statement below.

RTM REPLY - Hi Francois. I agree with you in that Billy should not be able to launch a
legal claim...what I am suggesting, however, is that he may try, meaning I would not put it
past him to try. And I base this on one important precedent...that he did the very same thing,
launching a legal challenge, against a cartoon that he felt portrayed him maliciously. He lost
that one, BTW.

03-15-2018, 12:47 PM
BenMullen
1 Attachment(s)
I probably should not post this as it is not pertinent but...

Thumbs up guys!

Attachment 52829

03-15-2018, 01:26 PM
YesAffinity
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

They have the game saved on the computer. They output the game to the monitor and use the
VCR to record the video the computer is outputting to the cabinet monitor while Billy mimes
the gameplay?

I put together a simple block diagram of what this would have looked like. It also aligns with
the following, and possibly other things that are know as "proof" on both sides of the
argument.

1) Wouldn't have mattered what game board was in the cab, for the fake board swap, because
the game was not being played at all, but rather being broadcast into the cab.
2) Two Bits encoder was actually purchased and used, but not for recording of live play, but
rather for recording of a playback
Exhibit A - 000700
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 700/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

3) As mentioned before, tapes immediately available from a 2+ hour game that was
supposedly captured to PC.

03-15-2018, 02:05 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

I put together a simple block diagram of what this would have looked like. It also aligns with
the following, and possibly other things that are know as "proof" on both sides of the
argument.

Didn't they mention buying two of the two bit devices? That is interesting.

03-15-2018, 02:08 PM
RomulusVonFlex

That would also explain there not being a long wire down to the board.

03-15-2018, 02:20 PM
YesAffinity
1 Attachment(s)

Whoops, missed an edit on the diagram. Should be a RGB-to-NTSC converter between

nintendo inverter and VCR.

03-15-2018, 05:57 PM
bjones

So, is it possible this is done in 2 steps? Just pure curiosity.

Step one: Play a normal DK with the twobit adapter connected to the second output of the
nintendo inverter board via a gigaware VHS to USB capture unit using Showbiz DVD to do
the capture.

Step two: Play the resulting file and record with a VCR

Things i'm curious about would be:

1. How much does the processing power of the at that time likely a 2009 era laptop matter? I
only say this knowing that using a fairly modern laptop with OBS it can be cranky sometimes.
My elgato gamecapture HD does great.

2. If the person using this laptop/crazy setup wasn't really a video person and just kind of
clicked their way through to a configuration that 'worked' (which would probably represent
the average user/gamer) what kind of variations in quality could be seen?
Exhibit A - 000701
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 701/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

3. If the laptop being used to play back the video for vhs recording was not particularly
powerful trying to play a rather large (for it's day) video at a reasonable frame rate what
would the result be? Again, i'm suggesting that it is considered that the hardware used here
was pretty much average every day consumer stuff being operated by average every day
consumers.

4. Was that the setup? Or was the VHS recorded simultaneously? The main reason I feel it
probably was an after the fact playback and record is because if you had a vcr handy why
would you need a digital capture?

5. Where is that digital capture? Assuming the file was monstrous and probably deleted or on
an external drive somewhere.

6. Would you possibly have to delete the soundtrack to get decent video playback?

I guess i'm just trying to consider a real world scenario as to what might happen if a group of
retro gamers that aren't necessarily computer wizzes tried to do a direct capture. There are
points in the logic of 'splicing' that just don't make sense. Back then a computer truly capable
of editing such a large file was not something everyone had, much less the
experience/knowledge to sit there and frame edit to that level to make that resulting video to
start with. Never mind the sheer time it would take to do it. In the world as normal people
know it, the piece that doesn't add up here is why anyone would bother to spend such an
extraordinary amount of time and / or money to do such an edit when the original player is
fully documented being very close to that score on real hardware to start with. The whole
thing makes me kind of think back to the early 80's and reading people say 'why didn't they
film it' not realizing in the 80's having a camera for that kind of thing was a luxury not many
people had.

03-15-2018, 06:01 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjones

.... There are points in the logic of 'splicing' that just don't make sense. Back then a computer
truly capable of editing such a large file was not something everyone had, much less the
experience/knowledge to sit there and frame edit to that level to make that resulting video to
start with. Never mind the sheer time it would take to do it. In the world as normal people
know it, the piece that doesn't add up here is why anyone would bother to spend such an
extraordinary amount of time and / or money to do such an edit when the original player is
fully documented being very close to that score on real hardware to start with. The whole
thing makes me kind of think back to the early 80's and reading people say 'why didn't they
film it' not realizing in the 80's having a camera for that kind of thing was a luxury not many
people had.

I'll let people better with tech answer your other questions, but I think you're confused on the
issue. Billy didnt splice it the way you're suggesting nor is anyone suggesting he did. By
"splicing" whats mean is he used save states on mame, if he died, he just reloaded the last
save state and continued playing from there. Using save states and reloading until you get it
right isnt nearly as difficult as the method you're suggesting. Thats why the screen transition
showing he used mame is such a big deal as the only reason to go all through the effort of
using mame, which plays pretty simiilarly, is if you want to abuse the save/load state to
essentially "splice" a run.

Exhibit A - 000702
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 702/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-15-2018, 07:03 PM
YesAffinity

And the laptop doesn't need to be beefy at all to playback a dk .inp. I guess there's a few extra
details the diagram could've included like the laptop is playing back an .inp. also worth
consideration is the fact that the gigaware device wasn't part of the equation until 3 days ago.
Robert child's who supposedly put the setup together said they recorded to vcr.

Now the big question - is it possible to create an .inp using save states?

03-15-2018, 07:18 PM
YesAffinity

And in the interest of answering my own queations - it would be possible for a arcade direct
feed to be recorded simultaneously on vcr and through the gigaware device onto a laptop.
Vcr's often have a composite pass through. I've been using one for my efforts so not sure why
I didn't think of it sooner. Therefore, tape couldve been immediately available in conjunction
with the capture to pc.

03-15-2018, 08:06 PM
omega175

@bjones :
It seems you think 2009 was a stone age with laptops. This is far from being so. 2009 is the
era of Core 2 Duos and first generation i7, i5 and i3 computers (including laptops). That was
the year Windows 7 came out. They already had SATA hard drives (first released around 2005
and by 2009 they had 320GB or even possibly larger). Back then higher end laptops already
had BluRay players. Even 2007 laptops had HDMI output and were able to play and output at
the same time BluRay rips that were even bigger than 12GB. We can go back to 2004 when
Dell D800 (for example) came out with a higher than full HD resolution. It had 16:10 aspect
ratio with 1920x1200 resolution (full HD is 1920x1080 with aspect ratio of 16:9). We can go
back even further to 2001-2002 and Dell C840 flagship with 1600x1200 (4:3 full screen
format; that puppy cost more than $3200). The crazy thing is that laptop was able to take up
to 2GB of RAM. Still can work well with Windows 7 today.

Given these resolutions, consider Donkey Kong:

Raster monitor (vertical),
224×256 resolution,
256 out of 768 colors

A potato laptop could run/capture video at that resolution. Think about this, 224x256 fits
approximately 40 times in a 1920x1200 (high end) screen resolution-wise (around 8.5 times
horizontally and a bit less than 5 times vertically). Lower resolution potato laptops could fit
this around 15 times on the screen. Add to that limited number of colors and lack of audio that
further decreases requirements for a powerful computer and hard disk space. Most average
laptops had S-Video plug, so all you needed is composite to S-Video cable. Btw, that little
video device did most of the crunching, so the laptop just had to write the data. The installed
software was the interface between the laptop and the device.

Yes, there was no need for video editing much. Savestate in MAME did the work. Just replay
the end result and you have a whole video. It was possible to have audio with direct capture,
but lack of it hides any MAME audio glitches.

Just my 2 cents.
Exhibit A - 000703
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 703/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-15-2018, 08:58 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Yesterday I received a PM from a concerned member. This is what it said:

Message below:
https://ibb.co/ktKCNx

If there are any mistakes in the above stated understanding, please feel free to provide
corrective information.

I think it would be a good idea to show MAME 0.116's girder "Finger of Cheating" in your
image spreadsheet. As others pointed out, it's the most distinctive 100% proof Billy cheated,
and no matter how much his fans try to distract or misdirect, that finger points directly at his
guilt beyond all doubt. It's the "Finger of Cheating" and it's going to get him. It's so blatant
and so unique to MAME that it's simply game over for him.

03-15-2018, 09:01 PM
FBX

Hmm quoting seems to have fouled up. Here's the image spreadsheet Jace was linking to, and
as I said, it need MAME 0.116's "Finger of Cheating" added:

https://ibb.co/m4JTvH

03-15-2018, 09:40 PM
FBX

Sorry for the triple post, but no ability to edit means I have to do it this way. Here's my
"Finger of Cheating" image spread:

https://i.imgur.com/qcWdkaz.jpg

03-15-2018, 10:16 PM
francoisadt

The flow of the arrows do depict if laptop was the source of a pre-recorded video or MAME
Playback. Which is what most of us believe it is.

Can you draw the flow of the arrows otehrway around if the PCb was
(as proposed by team Billy) as the source of play and the laptop
the source of "recorded live play" and then sent the input into
the laptop as output to the VCR?

Exhibit A - 000704
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 704/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Would the flow then look like this:

Arcade monitor (format1) => Nintendo conveter (format2)=>VGAtoRGB converter (format3)
=>laptop (record game play as format4)
Then laptop (recorded game play (in format 4) => VFAtoRGB converter (format5)
=> Nintendo converter (format6)=> RGB converter (format7)=> VCR (format8)

Now I intentially repeatedly re-use the converter logical blocks?

Are those logical converter blocks needed for both in-flow from
PCB as source to laptop (to record the source PCB output)

AND

out-flow from laptop to VCR needed? or used?

Was these converters used twice as I have written down above?

Can two flows be drawn if PCB was the source?

One PCB to laptop (show how the outout of PCV was recorded with video format
posibilities (this is important if the encoding need to happen all the time, which also will slow
down vice-versa)

Second diagram show output from laptop to VCR as flow 2 with possible conveters and video
outputs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Whoops, missed an edit on the diagram. Should be a RGB-to-NTSC converter between
nintendo inverter and VCR.

03-16-2018, 05:59 AM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

By "splicing" whats mean is he used save states on mame, if he died, he just reloaded the last
save state and continued playing from there.

You are correct that "splicing" is being used rather metaphorically here, but no, the method he
is suspected of using to piece together a performance better than he could do legitimately
wouldn't involve savestates either.

Exhibit A - 000705
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 705/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Nobody who knows better wants to be more specific because they don't want to instruct inept
people on how to cheat in MAME.

03-16-2018, 07:37 AM
YesAffinity
2 Attachment(s)

Here's the two most likely scenarios, based on what we know. Yes, there could be some minor
variations, like in the laptop/MAME playback scenario, the VGA-to-RGB could be some
other kind of converter depending on what type of outputs that laptop had. There would also
be audio coming from the laptop, which isn't represented here. But, you get the basic ideas.

Worth noting, the Gigaware device supports WinXP and Vista only. I looked briefly and
wasn't able to find any updated drivers that would expand OS support.

Also worth noting, some capture devices don't like the the signal that comes from DK direct
feed and the "NTSC" converters. It was mentioned much earlier in this thread, but what
comes out of the converters is not truly NTSC. Around the era of when the videos were
produced, and the Gigaware hardware, devices were more forgiving than they are now. All
that said, it would be good to test the Gigaware with the alleged setup, to confirm it will even
work with the "NTSC" feed.

Another thought on the Gigaware and the peculiarity of it just now surfacing as part of the
equation (pure speculation here): it is a convenient explanation, if someone comes out of the
woodworks from one of those events and remembers that DK (read: mame playback) was
playing on a laptop. "Oh, that's because we were simultaneously capturing to PC and
recording to VHS."

03-16-2018, 09:34 AM
omega175

@YesAffinity:
Most of Vista drivers work fine on Windows 7, so that Gigaware should install just fine there.
It even may be possible to make it work on Windows 10, but why push it? Under Windows 10
it might run with some defects. Testing would be needed to determine compatibility. Stick to
Windows XP or Windows 7 with that driver (Vista was an abomination).

Also, someone had mentioned that Billy's replay was slower than the original cabinet DK
(sign of an old computer running emulator). Any more updates on that or was that debunked?

03-16-2018, 10:03 AM
Oh_DeeR

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Here's the two most likely scenarios, based on what we know. ...

I think this is still giving too much credit to the "original story". For example, it's speculation
whether there was any VCR recording at Boomers. The only "evidence" we have for that is a
plastic bag with uncertain content that was handled by then TG referee or evangelist Mr.
Rogers in one of Mr. Childs' videos.
It is just as likely that the tape recording happened at home before or after the Boomers
episode.
I'm a proponent of an Occam's razor approach.
Exhibit A - 000706
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 706/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

By that logic, the most likely order of events would be something like:

1. Creation of the .inp file using Mame at home

2. Recording of a playback of that file on a VCR at home
3. Creation of the "proof" videos at Boomers (possibly after closing time, at least without an
audience)

I want you to notice that in this scenario there is no need to even do any performance on the
actual cabinet. Given the eccentricity of the involved individuals, it is very well possible that
they did some kind of on-site stunt, but it's just not a logical element in all of this. It's rather
part of the smoke screen, if you ask me.

It's fun to speculate, but it doesn't really help the dispute to stray away from the actual
evidence that is available.

In fact, all that is needed is to prove that the recordings attributet to Mr. Mitchell were
performed on Mame - which, at this point, is already more than likely. Providing negative
samples (=actual direct feed recordings) was a big contribution for setting the reference
frame.

TG has defined a standard of thoroughness for this kind of dispute that goes way beyond
reasonable measures, but that's fine. It's the company's money, not anyone else's - and they
want to convince as many people as possible, many of which seem to prefer to trust quantity
over quality.

03-16-2018, 10:40 AM
paramylodon
I have a challenge...

I'm not savvy enough to do this, so I'm bringing forth this challenge here. Can someone create
an .INP file using save states (or some kind of playback) on a version of MAME between
0.116 and 0.121 (versions with the "girder finger")? If this is demonstrably possible, I think it
would help in proving whether Billy cheated.

03-16-2018, 11:59 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

The video evidence is enough to prove he cheated. TG is being exhaustive in their efforts. The
donkey kong ROM is being rendered by MAME and not an arcade.

03-16-2018, 01:00 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Exhibit A - 000707
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 707/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The video evidence is enough to prove he cheated. TG is being exhaustive in their efforts. The
donkey kong ROM is being rendered by MAME and not an arcade.

I understand that completely. However, for the sake of being thorough it wouldn't hurt to be
able to reproduce the method of cheating that's being discussed here. I agree that the evidence
of MAME is enough to invalidate the score, but knowing HOW he cheated is important
secondary information. If you can put together a video or playback file using save states and
show it displaying the girder finger transition, then that further solidifies the case against
Billy.

03-16-2018, 01:02 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Where do you think the evidence came from in the first place? It was produced from MAME.
That is how MAME renders the donkey kong ROM Vs. how the arcade PCB does.

03-16-2018, 01:33 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Where do you think the evidence came from in the first place? It was produced from MAME.
That is how MAME renders the donkey kong ROM Vs. how the arcade PCB does.

Well, duh. Every one reading this thread knows this by now...

Many people have said in this thread that Billy using MAME is proof of cheating. They have
said that Billy probably used save states to "splice" together gameplay footage, and there is
evidence that supports that such as the 99th percentile RNG factor. What I have not seen, is
evidence as to how exactly that footage can be produced. I agree that that's what Billy likely
did to produce the footage, but there hasn't been any evidence put forward as to how exactly
that is done, while at the same time displaying the transition frames that are specific to
MAME versions 0.116 to 0.121.

I downloaded MAME 0.116 and MAME 0.121 to try and create a playback file using save
states that doesn't show me using save states. I first tried creating a .inp file while using save
states (I saved at each girder level and died once and loaded the state). In this case, when I
played back the .inp file, it ignored the save states and after my first save state the .inp
playback continued as if I died and started over the level.

I then tried the "record video" function to create a .mng file, and the playback of the .mng file
showed the save states being loaded.

Exhibit A - 000708
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 708/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

My conclusion is that if you are just using vanilla MAME 0.116 to 0.121, the option to create
a playback file that doesn't show the save states isn't possible solely using MAME. You'd
have to using video editing software to achieve that.

I have found proof that it's possible to create a save state-hidden file using MAMEPlus
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffH5__ggdso), but that doesn't show the girder finger
transition exclusive to MAME 0.116 to 0.121.

Again, I feel I need to emphasize that this is completely secondary to this dispute. The dispute
is that Billy used MAME. Full stop. Not that Billy necessarily used MAME to cheat, though
there is plenty of good reason to suspect that. I am interested in reproducing the method that
Billy may have used to cheat using save states. Essentially, I want to see if you could
reproduce Billy's 1M+ videos that are featured in this dispute.

03-16-2018, 01:33 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

If you can put together a video or playback file using save states and show it displaying the
girder finger transition, then that further solidifies the case against Billy.

That was already done earlier in this thread, and in fact my image spread takes a screencap
from that video. However, it doesn't matter anyway, because only those certain versions of
MAME display that 'Finger of Cheating'. Since the real arcade board NEVER draws that
finger, the case is a slam dunk. Once you demonstrate beyond all doubt Billy's tapes are
MAME footage, which is what that 'Finger of Cheating' does, that's a full stop end of debate.
It's over for Billy just on that alone. Only Billy knows where and when he made that MAME
footage (and maybe a corrupt sycophant or two of his), but we don't even have to worry about
proving that. All that had to be proven was that he used MAME and passed it off as legit
original hardware, which is already proven he did.

03-16-2018, 01:37 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

I've followed this thread ever since Jeremy posted the transition gifs, and I have seen any
video of someone USING SAVE STATES to produce a gameplay video with the cheating
finger.

03-16-2018, 01:38 PM
paramylodon Exhibit A - 000709
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 709/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

typo above: haven't*

03-16-2018, 01:38 PM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

The girder finger is particular to MAME. Whether you're playing normally or have a playback
file MAME will render the levels the same way. A newly created playback file changes
nothing.

03-16-2018, 01:40 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounty bob

The girder finger is particular to MAME. Whether you're playing normally or have a playback
file MAME will render the levels the same way. A newly created playback file changes
nothing.

The girder finger is unique to MAME 0.116 to 0.121. Other versions of MAME show the
three girder transition (arcade has five), but not the finger.

03-16-2018, 01:44 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

The girder finger is unique to MAME 0.116 to 0.121. Other versions of MAME show the
three girder transition (arcade has five), but not the finger.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post946633

Here's Jeremy's post for any who doesn't want to do any digging. You can see in the "Barrel
Transition" gifs that the finger only shows up in 0.116 to 0.121.

03-16-2018, 02:00 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post946633

Exhibit A - 000710
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 710/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Here's Jeremy's post for any who doesn't want to do any digging. You can see in the "Barrel
Transition" gifs that the finger only shows up in 0.116 to 0.121.

Here is how you would do it. You play a level. Pause and save the game. You then make a
copy of that saved game and move it to another folder. You then unsave and continue playing.
If on the next level you don't get enough points you take that copy of that save and restart that
level hoping the RNG goes in your favor the next time. You keep doing that until you get the
points needed to score a million without actually knowing the strategies to push to a million.
The difference between 950,000 and 1,047,000 is HUGE in DK and requires almost
completely different play styles.

03-16-2018, 02:15 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Would that require stitching together multiple .inp files? Is that possible? I don't have much
experience with .inp files.

03-16-2018, 02:15 PM
The Evener

In the course of the dispute, I've heard members cite Billy's game play as potential evidence
of MAME play, such as "staring down death" moves that stretch the notion of confident game
play into save state territory. Curious if there any notable examples that really stand out to the
eyes of DK experts.

03-16-2018, 02:17 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Would that require stitching together multiple .inp files? Is that possible? I don't have much
experience with .inp files.

Nope, it would be one continuous save file. You wouldn't need to stitch together anything.

03-16-2018, 02:32 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Nope, it would be one continuous save file. You wouldn't need to stitch together anything.
Exhibit A - 000711
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 711/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I get how you would use save states to achieve a high score, but how then would you create a
playback file that shows the gameplay without the evidence of using save states?

Say I start playing while recording a .inp and I completely the girder stage flawlessly. Then I
pause* and save state and make a copy of that save state. I do really crapping on the rivets
stage so I decide the load the save and try again. The problem is that the .inp file would still
record the failed attempt and when I go playback the .inp file, my movements would be
desynchronized when I get to the point where I load the state because it doesn't recognized the
reloaded state. When you load a save state while recording an .inp file, the playback ignores
the loaded state and just continues as if you had lost a life. The .inp file still records the failed
attempt.

If I tried using the record video function, the playback would show the failed rivets attempt
and the loaded state.

*note: .inp playback does ignore pausing. If you paused while recording, you wouldn't see the
pause in playback.

03-16-2018, 02:37 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I get how you would use save states to achieve a high score, but how then would you create a
playback file that shows the gameplay without the evidence of using save states?

If I tried using the record video function, the playback would show the failed rivets attempt
and the loaded state.

*note: .inp playback does ignore pausing. If you paused while recording, you wouldn't see the
pause in playback.

So pause and save the .inp at the same time.

03-16-2018, 02:51 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

So pause and save the .inp at the same time.

You can't make a copy of a recording .inp file while MAME is running, all you get is an error.
You would have to wait for it to finish recording, thus leading to multiple .inp files needing to
Exhibit A - 000712
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 712/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

be put together for a single playback file.

03-16-2018, 03:00 PM
starcrytas

For TASing arcade games on MAME, I found this:

http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources/Mamerr.html

03-16-2018, 03:06 PM
Snowflake

before i thought the question was about how would billy use mame with technology of the
time to fake his run -- a relevant question. I dont follow though the relevance of how to fake
an inp. Billy never submitted an inp, he just submitted the playback. He didnt need some
master hack to prevent the inp from showing evidence of save states since he never submitted
the inp and just claimed it was arcade.

03-16-2018, 03:20 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

What I'm trying to do is figure out a way to create playback of a run using save states without
showing evidence of save state, while limited to the tools that were available at the time.
Additionally, the playback needs to include the cheating finger girder to reproduce billy's
mame video. There are two methods of creating playback within MAME 0.116 to 0.121:
recording a .inp file or using the "record video" within MAME to output a video file. Billy
needed to create an uninterrupted playback file that he could then record onto a VHS tape for
submission.

Basically you need some kind of uninterrupted playback file first to record it onto a VHS
tape, right? The other option is using video editing software to splice footage together, but it's
been suggested here that that wasn't the case. It's been said that you can create playback
within MAME using save states, so it would be helpful if we could recreate that.

03-16-2018, 03:42 PM
Snowflake

ah thx, i misunderstood then. i thought you were taling about how to fake the inp to the point
where inp analysis couldnt detect it. you're just talking about how to make the video though.
ok, i agree thats relevant, sorry for not grasping it at first

03-16-2018, 04:40 PM
FBX

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000713
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 713/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I'm no expert on MAME use, but it seems to me that if you used save states to cheat the RNG,
what you'd do is record the gameplay live on your computer digitally. Then from there, you
could easily edit your digital recording down to the perfect frame level to remove all the load
states, then transfer the edited digital recording to VHS tape while it plays back the finalized
edit. So on the VHS tape, you wouldn't detect any sort of editing at all. It would seem
perfectly fluid and a single live session recorded on tape.

Now what you're asking is if it were possible to string the save states together and have it play
back that way. The problem is that probably wouldn't create the same RNG in each segment,
and the input would run into issues. It's much easier to just record the footage digitally on the
computer as you're playing, and edit out the load states manually. As I said, the finished edit
is then by played back and recorded as though it were a live run on VHS tape. Keep in mind
Billy muted the sound, so he didn't even have to worry about emulation errors as far as that
goes, but he failed to realize the unique drawing characteristics of those version of MAME.
That's where he's been caught.

03-16-2018, 07:51 PM
Oh_DeeR

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

The problem is that probably wouldn't create the same RNG in each segment, and the input
would run into issues.

While I'm no expert on Mame TASing, I think I can say with some confidence that the
emulator would not desync and that the RNG would be fixed. Emulators are usually
completely deterministic on a stable system. I'm not sure how RNG is determined in Mame,
but usually it's something similar to a continuous frame counter that begins at startup of the
game. The same input file will then allow the gameplay to always reach all stages on the same
frames or framerules, resulting in the same RNG all the time.

I also think that understanding the process of creating such a continuous input file bears some
relevance to understanding what exactly went down. The people who initially stated that this
would not have been a problem will surely step forward soon and solve this part of the puzzle.

03-16-2018, 10:28 PM
Tessman

Jace,

I would very much like an answer here.

How can you expect anyone to take this site and it's scoreboard seriously when you allow this
kind of stuff to get posted on the site?

https://www.twingalaxies.com/article...billy-mitchell
Exhibit A - 000714
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 714/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I wrote this in the comments of that article as well, but good evidence and an eye toward
integrity of the scoreboard should be celebrated. Instead, Twin Galaxies authors and posts an
attack on someone's character who dare would take the time to gather mounds of evidence
and then bring it forth formally on a site who's whole existence is predicated on maintaining
an accurate scoreboard. What are people supposed to think of Twin Galaxies when trash like
this gets posted?

03-16-2018, 10:36 PM
Welp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

Jace,

I would very much like an answer here.

How can you expect anyone to take this site and it's scoreboard seriously when you allow this
kind of stuff to get posted on the site?

https://www.twingalaxies.com/article...billy-mitchell

Just a quote from the article:

"So, he flew to Florida, snuck into an arcade event dressed like Billy Mitchell, and tried to
record proof that Billy is a fraud."

03-17-2018, 04:44 AM
sjh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

Jace,

I would very much like an answer here.

How can you expect anyone to take this site and it's scoreboard seriously when you allow this
kind of stuff to get posted on the site?

Exhibit A - 000715
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 715/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://www.twingalaxies.com/article...billy-mitchell

Honestly an article whose only text was "Attention everyone who dares doubt Billy Mitchell:
**** you" would have been more professional than that.

03-17-2018, 06:52 AM
Robert.F
who care`a

This is Apollos problem , as for the layer and his tuff talk , that all it`s is,, secret recording ?
what is that , you can record anyone all day long, The only following issue is was it in puplic
where you have no relative expectation of privacy or was it recorded in a manner as ti in trap
you ,,, is some walks in to an arcade recording and you see the cam in there hand you can
chose to avoid this person, the owner of the privet establishment cant tell you to stop short of
kicking you out,,, as for secret recording , There no law saying you cant record for your own
porpoises as long as it stays that way in less other wise giving writ-in promotion from the
person or persons you have recorded ,,,, so if Apollo saying he made secret recording good
for him, if Apollo saying he over herd things good for him he has every right to do so, the
only thing he may be facing legal is slander,,, watch is not easy to do and i dont think stating
facts of what you hear people say like "yes it true the tape swap was fake" is consider
slander.... so call it a secret mission or call it a or a fact finding journey, as long as he did vital
anyone right via live feed or recording he`s in the clear and the layers love to play strong arm
with people who dont know how to work the system :) anyhowwwwwwwwwww whats this
got to do with this dispute nothing i think

03-17-2018, 07:00 AM
Robert.F

sorry my grammar is bad and cant means can and did means didn't, Freudian slip or i tend to
think in opposites of what i want to say.. no more post for me today

03-17-2018, 08:53 AM
FBX

Whatever happened with Apollo, I think Billy did sick a bunch of lawyers on him. Last I
heard from Apollo, he told me he managed to get Robert Childs to confess about the staged
board swap video (not that we need a confession because there's physical proof it was staged),
but I think a secret recording of that is the root of why Billy sicked lawyers on him. Apollo
has since shut down obviously due to the legal battles over his recordings.

But yeah, the article was written with very biased and propagandized tone. It's not going to
help TG when you send a message of "This is what happens when you mess with a cheater
that has money to hire lawyers".

03-17-2018, 09:02 AM
FBX

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000716
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 716/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Oh_DeeR

I don't agree with you on this, for the simple reason that experts have claimed that Billy's
RNG was noticeably higher than average. That would indicate that the RNG is based
randomly on a per screen basis. An inp file from beginning to end would not hit that same
high RNG unless an incredibly rare 1 in a Billion run happened. That's obviously not how
Billy made the tapes, because it would take him hundreds of years to get a run with that
bizarre level of luck. Rather instead, he simply load-stated each segment where he needed to
regenerate the RGN to get more points than usual. If you try to inp an entire run of that luck,
it's not going to sync for the entire game, otherwise, Billy would never have had to load state
to begin with.

03-17-2018, 09:08 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Also, from what I could tell yesterday Billy didn't score more than 200k points before losing a
life yesterday at the kong off. That doesn't look good for him.

03-17-2018, 10:09 AM
q43
2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

the article was written with very biased and propagandized tone.

I love how they edited it

Attachment 52945
Attachment 52946

But make no mention of the edit, or even recognizing that someone drew their attention to it.
So if you scroll down and see that I wrote: "you give a link to show Billy's 13th place score as
being 14th. "Keep in mind here, that this is a record for fourteenth place" - Actually it's not, 1
of Robbie's scores will be removed once his latest score is adjudicated." ... it looks like I
intentionally left their "(technically thirteenth as we wait for adjudication on Robbie
Lakeman's latest score)" ... part out for no reason what so ever.

I can't believe your organization approved this, and allowing it to be edited without note
makes the "Discussion" portion below it useless.

03-17-2018, 10:31 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

Exhibit A - 000717
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 717/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I love how they edited it

Attachment 52945
Attachment 52946

I can't believe your organization approved this, and allowing it to be edited without note
makes the "Discussion" portion below it useless.

editorial about to learn just how thorough adjudication is and how everything gets packeted. It
would appear Hugh and Billy are both learning what happens when you try to slip bologna
past adjudication.

03-17-2018, 10:39 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Watching the kong off, billy just got to 18k points and gave up.

03-17-2018, 10:43 AM
Hotrod6045

Good job Editorial, you just threw Adjudication under the bus.

Voted YES.

03-17-2018, 11:03 AM
starcrytas

I understand that TG wants to go through every bit of evidence to and be 100% sure on their
decision, but this is taking too long.
How long until the final decision on this???

I voted yes on this dispute when the MAME vs Arcade screen transition comparisons were
first brought up which proved Billy played on MAME.

03-17-2018, 11:25 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by starcrytas

Exhibit A - 000718
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 718/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I understand that TG wants to go through every bit of evidence to and be 100% sure on their
decision, but this is taking too long.
How long until the final decision on this???

I voted yes on this dispute when the MAME vs Arcade screen transition comparisons were
first brought up which proved Billy played on MAME.

I do respect the thoroughness, Jace isnt just dragging out ot drag out, he's done things with the
time. Granted, the time is spend countering contradicgting things teambilly has said as well as
countering things they havent even though to bring up yet, but it would be nice to see this
closed soon. Billy has shown zero repentance. He's still putting himself in the spotlight, which
in turns is a big F U to TG as it draws attention thats he's still on the books here. His team
continues to put out false information as well as false information that contradicts their other
false information showing just how little they care. This is all a big joke to him, he's laughing
at us, inulsting us, lying to us, and dragging down the TG name enough all by himself, and
now to make matters worse an article by TG editiorial is also making things worse with false
info, insults, and misleading statements. This needs to end before TG is humiliated to an
unrecoverable point. At a bare minimum get editorial under control. You cant control billy,
but at least clean up your own house.

03-17-2018, 11:51 AM
Snowflake

so i decided to some very easy digging of my own. I went to carlos video and then look at
what else he uploaded on his own channel. So this is no impositer channel, this is also isnt
carlos on some other channel, this is team billy's expert on the same channel he uploaded the
bogus rebuttle video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfNy1sYDjgk
warning what's hes doing to that bread isnt suitable for watching in front of the family

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPin7l2i4EU
above carlos brings sexy back reinacting rose's scene from titanic

remind anyone of east side dave? We already know what billy's preferred interviewer does,
well here's bily's "tech" on his "tech" page, the same channel he sent us too to get the rebuttal.
bravo team billy. real upstanding citizens doing your research.

03-17-2018, 11:57 AM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

Just a quote from the article:

"So, he flew to Florida, snuck into an arcade event dressed like Billy Mitchell, and tried to
record proof that Billy is a fraud."

Seriously? This isn't even remotely accurate, obviously he did not try to "sneak" into an event
dressed as Billy Mitchell and pretend to be Billy Mitchell. That's inane. He also clearly did
not break any laws. This entire article is one of the most obvious smear jobs I've ever read.
Regardless of where you stand on this thing, Hugh Anderson's article is obviously dishonest.
Please remove him from the editorial staff.
Exhibit A - 000719
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 719/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

He did not clearly break any laws? Are you sure about that? Filming a private location
without permission in the state of Florida. Seems pretty clear to me.

03-17-2018, 11:57 AM
GibGirl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

...and now to make matters worse an article by TG editiorial is also making things worse with
false info, insults, and misleading statements. This needs to end before TG is humiliated to an
unrecoverable point. At a bare minimum get editorial under control. You cant control billy,
but at least clean up your own house.

I haven't seen a single reaction to the newsfeed article that is anything other than it making
TG look bad and biased in Billy's corner. Of course, what really surprises me here is that
anyone actually pays enough attention to the newsfeed to care.

03-17-2018, 11:59 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibGirl

thats a good point, i was just forwarded it by others, and i dropped my jaw in disbelief after
reading it. Here's the thing though, for the most part i avoid the news feed not because it was
bad, but because i figured it was good content for things that dont interest me but may interest
others. This though, this was really really bad.

03-17-2018, 12:03 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

He did not clearly break any laws? Are you sure about that? Filming a private location
without permission in the state of Florida. Seems pretty clear to me.

its possible he broke laws, its even more possilbe he was threatened with a lawsuit whether
the lawsuit was valid or not.

however, he did not "sneak" in. he was invited.

he doest not "take others work and pass it off as his own" -- he reportdd on others work and
gave credit to those who did the work. He did mke a mistake at one point and credit sroka's
video to xelnia, but he himself didnt credit for anyone else's work.

"making a living off proving others wrong" -- i'll let that pass as true but miseading. In any
controvesial issue arent you proving one side right and proving the other side wrong?

the bad math for robbie's score effecting billy's place though tells me that Hugh never
Exhibit A - 000720
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 720/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

bothered to check the actualy ranking but rather himself just learned about things from others
works, passed it off as his own, and didnt fact check. Rmemeber, you can get away with
plagiarizing the truth since everyone would come up with the same true answer, its when you
plagiarize mistakes that you get caught. Woulndt have made that mistake if he did his own
research, so whoever it is your copying from hugh, copy from someone more accurate in the
future.

i could go on of course, but i'll leave it at that. shameful.

03-17-2018, 12:41 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Walter Day just had to ask who Robbie Lakeman was. I would think anyone like him would
know who that is.

03-17-2018, 12:54 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Walter Day just had to ask who Robbie Lakeman was. I would think anyone like him would
know who that is.

i didnt see/hear what you're talking about. hopefully it was a joke or something like that,
because walter made a card for robbie

https://thewalterdaycollection.com/c...?category_id=3

03-17-2018, 12:56 PM
Oh_DeeR

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

I don't agree with you on this, [...]

Since I also don't know how Mame TASing , in particular, works I'll try to avoid too bold
claims. However, assuming it works anything like other systems and also assuming that
continuous inp files can be easily created, while using save states (as some people who I
assume have the knowledge how to do so have claimed is possible) RNG could easily be
manipulated as follows:
(This is assuming that the RNG of the whole board is fixed when it is loaded. It might work
very differently, but the mechnics would be the same, the save state spread / resolution would
simply change.)

1. Play a level (A) until you're satisfied with the outcome.

2. Create a savestate BEFORE finishing level (A).
3. Play the next level (B) and see if you're satisfied with the outcome.
4a) if yes, repeat from step 1 on level (B).
4b) if no, load your savestate, finish level (A) on a different frame and continue with 3.

I'm merely transferring concepts from TAS software that I am familiar with and I assume
classic arcade games to follow similar principles. Anyone who's actively used Mame can
probably clear this up really quick.
Exhibit A - 000721
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 721/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

All that said, this is just a side discussion that should not distract from the main evidence. It's
more out of personal curiosity and a general interest in how videogames work.

03-17-2018, 12:58 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

i didnt see/hear what you're talking about. hopefully it was a joke or something like that,
because walter made a card for robbie

https://thewalterdaycollection.com/c...?category_id=3

When Walter asked if the million point game that just happened was the top score, the guy on
stream said no, Robbie Lakeman's is higher, Walter asked who's that, the person on the stream
said the guy in the jersey down there.

03-17-2018, 01:00 PM
Barthax

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Considering the number of people & records Walter has been involved in and, other than
friends, he's been out of the TG loop for nearly a decade: it's no surprise.

03-17-2018, 01:06 PM
Oh_DeeR

As an add-on to my last post:

The smaller the intervals between savestates are, the crazier the resulting outcome could be.
If a feature like frame advancing was available at the time, no actual human gameplay would
even be necessary.
That's more speculation, though. I have no knowledge about the functionality of Mame and
related software at that time or nowadays.

03-17-2018, 01:18 PM
Jace Hall
Update

We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision.

Thank you for your patience.

03-17-2018, 01:36 PM
RTM

Thanks, Jace...it's been a long and tumultuous seven months for you in this process, I am sure.

Exhibit A - 000722
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 722/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-17-2018, 02:19 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision.

Thank you for your patience.

Do you have any comment on Robert Childs saying that he used a USB device to record the
game to a computer?

03-17-2018, 02:33 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Do you have any comment on Robert Childs saying that he used a USB device to record the
game to a computer?

It was already clear that Billy's performances were output to VHS by a computer and were not
directly recorded to VHS from the arcade machine as originally claimed. This is the only way
to account for the 180 degree rotation of Billy's recordings.

If you look at Carlos' direct feed arcade recording here, you will notice that the oil barrel is in
the UPPER LEFT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKbkvqrzL5k

That is exactly how the TWO-BIT converter outputs. This is the correct original arcade
display.

If you look at Billy's tape shown here in the quick footage I posted to TG during a test, you
will see that the oil barrel is in the LOWER RIGHT.
https://ibb.co/eUr3Hx

This display orientation is not possible from the TWO-BIT converter. So this 100% means
that a computer must have output Billy's tapes.

The fact that a computer output billy's performances does not necessarily mean they are
definitely proven not to be Arcade, since he could have recorded his arcade performance
to a computer first instead of VHS - but the fact that a computer was involved also
immediately supports the possibility that MAME was used and an orientation display
choice mistake took place.

This is a mistake that would never be caught if the television that the video tape was
presented on was always turned on its side before playing the tape for people.

03-17-2018, 02:41 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall Exhibit A - 000723

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 723/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If you look at Carlos' direct feed arcade recording here, you will notice that the oil barrel is in
the UPPER LEFT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKbkvqrzL5k

That is exactly how the TWO-BIT converter outputs. This is the correct original arcade
display.

If you look at Billy's tape shown here in the quick footage I posted to TG during a test, you
will see that the oil barrel is in the LOWER RIGHT.
https://ibb.co/eUr3Hx

This display orientation is not possible from the TWO-BIT converter. So this 100% means
that a computer must have output Billy's tapes.

This is a mistake that would never be caught if the television that the video tape was
presented on was always turned on its side before playing the tape for people.

During the video Robert Childs put out with Todd Rodgers the video tapes are immediately
available. Wouldn't they have had to record to the computer then output them to the VCR?

03-17-2018, 02:45 PM
Muf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This is a mistake that would never be caught if the television that the video tape was
presented on was always turned on its side before playing the tape for people.

Someone could've noticed the TV was tilted the wrong way around.

03-17-2018, 02:49 PM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This display orientation is not possible from the TWO-BIT converter. So this 100% means
that a computer must have output Billy's tapes.

Got it, so they found this out at some point and changed their original (straight to VHS) story,
exactly what you do when being 100% honest and transparent.

03-17-2018, 02:52 PM
Jace Hall Exhibit A - 000724
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 724/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

During the video Robert Childs put out with Todd Rodgers the video tapes are immediately
available. Wouldn't they have had to record to the computer then output them to the VCR?

The only fact of interest that can be definitively discerned and used from the Robert Childs
video is that it contains deliberately false information.

03-17-2018, 03:15 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

The only fact of interest that can be definitively discerned and used from the Robert Childs
video is that it contains deliberately false information.

While lying about one thing doesn prove lying about another, the evidence against billy has
been overwhelming. The only thing team billy has offered in defense (other than lies) is "he's
a really nice guy" "he gave me free hot sauce once" "he looked me in the eye and said he's
innocent and he'd never lie to me". Merely establishing he's willing to use lies (and yes i'm
aware it was robert childs and not him who said it, but robert was definitely speaking on his
behalf, and billy had ample opportunity to contradict robert and set the record straight) this
helps destroy the whole "team billy would never lie defense", which frankly, as weak as it is,
its the only defense they have.

so much for the new nickname of "honest billy".

03-17-2018, 03:27 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision.

Thank you for your patience.

Do the original tapes that TG has, match the ones that are public on the web? Does TG
currently have a tape form the 1.062 score?

Or will we find out that information then?

03-17-2018, 03:52 PM
Prophecyrob

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

He did not clearly break any laws? Are you sure about that? Filming a private location
without permission in the state of Florida. Seems pretty clear to me.

Exhibit A - 000725
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 725/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Do you ask permission to film at events or private locations? Is Florida somehow different
from New Hampshire withfilming laws? Most of us just pull out our phones nowadays and
simply hit record whether at a restaurant, shopping mall, etc. I didn’t know we had to find
management and get permission.

Guess I better track down Bob next time I wanna record an Arcade cabinet at Funspot.

03-17-2018, 04:27 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This is a mistake that would never be caught if the television that the video tape was
presented on was always turned on its side before playing the tape for people.

RTM REPLY - Jace, if you look up my recollection of how Billy presented his 1.014M
performance on tape in Lincoln Center...where he rushed to do so after Steve's 1.006M
arrived as the first 1M score received by TG, he turned the TV set upside-down at the Lincoln
Center venue as well.

This debate has questioned three of his performances but really should factor in this earlier
4th one as well.

03-17-2018, 04:39 PM
Rev John

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oh_DeeR

1. Play a level (A) until you're satisfied with the outcome.

All that said, this is just a side discussion that should not distract from the main evidence. It's
more out of personal curiosity and a general interest in how videogames work.

Exhibit A - 000726
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 726/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Random Number Generation in MAME is not random, it just LOOKS random. The RNG
uses an initial 'seed' value which would be the same whenever a MAME game is started. The
RNG uses an algorithm to determine the next 'psuedo-random' number (and next seed) any
time the game needs to 'roll the dice' so to speak. In DK this means that the game simply
accesses the next 'random' number in the series each time the game needs to determine if a
wild barrel will be thrown, if a player gets to 'control' whether or not a barrel will go down a
ladder, what the next movement of a fireball will be, where the springs are going to first
bounce, whether a pie will appear and so on. Because the numbers are not actually random -
they are merely a series of numbers that LOOK random - MAME will replay in the same way
given the same set of inputs.

When someone makes a MAME save-state (at ANY point in the game), the current RNG seed
is saved as well. When the save-state is reloaded the game will soon play differently as the
same series of pseudo-random numbers are used to make different 'decisions' by different
elements in the game. Eg the next time around the game might not need to check if a barrel is
'controllable' because the player is not pressing left or right, so the next 'random' number gets
applied to fireball movement instead etc.

When someone plays DK on an actual arcade machine, they only get one shot and it appears
that sometimes a player gets 'good luck' and sometimes they get 'bad luck'. If someone is
playing MAME and they don't like how things are going (eg they got a bunch of 300 points
'blue barrel' smashes instead of 500 or 800 points) they can reload a save state and hope
things go better. Eg "That screen went well, I got 800 points three times and lots of other
barrel hits too!" Abusing MAME in such a way can create statistical anomalies such as 800
point kills occurring way more than would be likely in a one-off actual arcade machine
performance.

The website https://www.random.org/ in it's opening paragraphs explains how 'random

numbers' (like the above) are not always random, and points out that it's random numbers are
triggered from atmospheric noise rather than from a pseudo-random series of numbers.

03-17-2018, 05:25 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

This debate has questioned three of his performances but really should factor in this earlier
4th one as well.

when you say "upside down" that doesnt make sense either, to clarify do you mean rotated,
and in particular rotated which way?
Rotated alone is to be expected (as long as its rotated the correct way)

For example, when direct feed is used and then replayed on a tv you should have to rotate the
TV so that the bottom is facing the right, billy screwed up and made the image upside down
from that rotation, meaning for billy's mame videos you'd have to rotate the tv so that the
bottom was facing the left.

Exhibit A - 000727
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 727/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Do you recall which direction the bottom of the TV was facing?

03-17-2018, 05:32 PM
Welp

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

He did not clearly break any laws? Are you sure about that? Filming a private location
without permission in the state of Florida. Seems pretty clear to me.

Florida is an all-party consent state, but only when you have a reasonable expectation of
privacy. Florida statute defines this as:

"“Place and time when a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy” means a place and
time when a reasonable person would believe that he or she could fully disrobe in privacy,
without being concerned that the person’s undressing was being viewed, recorded, or
broadcasted by another, including, but not limited to, the interior of a residential dwelling,
bathroom, changing room, fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth."

Pretty clear that an arcade during a public event would not qualify. One could try and hit them
with the Florida wiretapping statute (which is a CRIMINAL statute), but it would be doubtful
that they would prosecute given the fact that it *appears* to be a crowded and public area
where any conversation could be easily overheard. That doesn't mean they aren't legally
harassing Apollo, though.

03-17-2018, 05:39 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

when you say "upside down" that doesnt make sense either, to clarify do you mean rotated,
and in particular rotated which way? Do you recall which direction the bottom of the TV was
facing?

RTM REPLY - my mistake...I meant to say sideways. This was actually the third time I had
seen one of Bill's performances on video. He and Walter set the TV up in the Lincoln Center
venue entrance corridor for visitors to see prior to entering the theatre room.

I had seen two earlier performances..."Pacman" and "Centipede"...on display at the Mall of
America 2000 event but I never paid attention how those were setup back in the day. However
I am crystal clear on the Lincoln Center event as I had never seen a TV turns onto its side
before, for any reason (other than seeing one in pile for trash pickup) before the electronic
recycling rules were in place in NYC).

03-17-2018, 05:43 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Exhibit A - 000728
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 728/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Do you recall which direction the bottom of the TV was facing?

RTM REPLY - I forgot to respond on this point before...the answer is I do not

remember...while I do vividly recall his placing the TV set onto its side, I paid no attention to
which way the bottom was facing. I can't even venture a guess, sorry.

03-17-2018, 06:04 PM
FBX
2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

The only fact of interest that can be definitively discerned and used from the Robert Childs
video is that it contains deliberately false information.

Which makes me wonder just how many people have knowingly and willingly helped Billy
Mitchell lie and cheat. He's literally become the "Lance Armstrong" of video game records.
But as far as I'm concerned, the blue axial cap in the board swap video destroyed Child's
credibility on the spot:

Attachment 52962

And then you have the "Finger of Cheating" which destroys Billy himself on the spot:

Attachment 52963

03-17-2018, 06:30 PM
Snowflake

Well they're gonna have to legally intimiate a lot more than just apollo. Here's omnigamers
synopsis. He just tries to summarizet he key points made in this thread, a cliff notes of sorts to
save people from having to read the entire thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEKY...ature=youtu.be

Welcome to 2018 and the internet. Its not as easy to silence others as it once was.

03-17-2018, 06:46 PM
Rev John

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev John

given the same set of inputs.

The website https://www.random.org/ in it's opening paragraphs explains how 'random

numbers' (like the above) are not always random, and points out that it's random numbers are
triggered from atmospheric noise rather than from a pseudo-random series of numbers.

I apologise, what I typed above is true with regards to 'random' numbers in certain games not
actually being random, however DK doesn't quite work as I have described above. I should
have looked at the actual DK code first. I got things wrong, I apologise. I must admit, I
stuffed up but it does feel good to fess up.

From what I can tell DK has 2 memory locations that keep changing values (#6019 and
#601A - internal timers?), and also makes use of location #6018 to derive a 'psudeo-random'
number from these 2 memory locations. The different parts of the DK code make varying use
of locations #6019, #6018, and #601A to determine the outcomes of various 'random'
elements within the game. (So in DK there is NOT a single 'seed' and there is NOT a simple
series of psuedo-random numbers as I say above. It's more like having a couple of seeds that
continue to change in value, to provide psuedo-random numbers on request.)

The process of determining the score from a blue barrel is based on the last 2 bits of #6018
when the barrel is hit. So if someone was to replay a screen using a MAME save-state they
would potentially get a different score merely by hitting the barrel at a different time in the
game, which could be a split second earlier or later than in a previous play. Even if you are
aware of this there is no way to exploit it, so scoring an over-abundance of 800 point blue
barrels would still be circumstantial evidence of cheating via abusing MAME save-states,
particularly if it occurred in more than one gameplay submission.

03-17-2018, 08:31 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Exhibit A - 000730
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 730/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

If you look at Carlos' direct feed arcade recording here, you will notice that the oil barrel is in
the UPPER LEFT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKbkvqrzL5k

That is exactly how the TWO-BIT converter outputs. This is the correct original arcade
display.

If you look at Billy's tape shown here in the quick footage I posted to TG during a test, you
will see that the oil barrel is in the LOWER RIGHT.
https://ibb.co/eUr3Hx

This display orientation is not possible from the TWO-BIT converter. So this 100% means
that a computer must have output Billy's tapes.

This is a mistake that would never be caught if the television that the video tape was
presented on was always turned on its side before playing the tape for people.

As a visual supplement to TG's conclusion, I've included a comparison of TG's review of the
1.04 tape with the play back of that score during King of Kong. As Jace notes, the TG review
of the tape shows the blue oil barrel on the lower right when the TV is in its regular
orientation (top photo); in King of Kong (bottom photo), you'll note that for play back the TV
is rotated clockwise (bottom of the TV is facing left), which illustrates that the oil barrel is
also on the lower right according to the TV's regular orientation.

Attachment 52978

03-17-2018, 08:37 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

Guess I better track down Bob next time I wanna record an Arcade cabinet at Funspot.

You could probably say that Funspot is open to the public, and that the owners are OK with
videos being taken. If you were to walk around in there pointing your camera at kids,
following families around, etc. the management would likely tell you to stop, revoking any
implied permission you have.

Walk into a bar and start photographing. See how long they tolerate it.

03-17-2018, 08:41 PM
datagod
Exhibit A - 000731
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 731/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

Do you ask permission to film at events or private locations?

To answer your question, absolutely yes. At the bigger events I make sure to get a media pass
as well. At private locations people have a legal expectation of privacy. Laws are quite clear
on that issue. Events that have given permission to photographers and videographers will post
a sign at the entrance stating "By entering these premises you acknowledge that you may be
photographed and or/ video recorded." or words to that affect.

Please tell me you knew this already.

03-17-2018, 08:46 PM
datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

Most of us just pull out our ***** nowadays and simply hit record whether at a restaurant,
shopping mall, etc. I didn’t know we had to find management and get permission.

Lack of knowledge is not a defense.

03-17-2018, 08:55 PM
deverett
Screen rotation

DK outputs to a screen in portrait orientation, the output of the two-bit converter would be the
same, so any capture would be rotated by 90degrees as seen on a normal TV (landscape
orientation) and require playback with a TV set on it's side.

03-17-2018, 10:06 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by deverett

You're missing the point. The two-bit converter orientates the direct feed such that the blue
drum is in the upper left, not the lower right.

03-17-2018, 10:30 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Billy got around 818k at the kong off. He was not in the top 8.

03-17-2018, 10:39 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000732
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 732/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Snowflake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEKY...ature=youtu.be

Welcome to 2018 and the internet. Its not as easy to silence others as it once was.

Despite some minor errors and omissions this video does a good job of summarizing the
major items for the casual spectator. I would encourage people to check it out.

For the people who watch the video and wonder why the matter isn't a quick open-and-
shut case based on what is presented, I will provide you some insight as to why the TG
investigation has taken some time:

1 - The assertion that the "finger-girder" (which seems to be the biggest smoking gun) can not
be produced by an original DK arcade machine must be thoroughly examined and tested. If
you are sitting there thinking that an original DK arcade machine cant do it no matter what,
you are likely only thinking that because thats what you heard. @xelnia did not provide any
exhaustive evidence for TG to examine on this assertion. No one has. Since it is such a key
element, TG has to do the work and MAKE SURE that this assertion is valid and look at
every reasonable scenario that could produce a result. This takes time.

2 - TG can not rely on youtube videos of Billy's performances as its primary source of
reference. Aside from the possibility of Billy claiming that they are not his actual
performances, the very nature of their digital encoding and upload into youtube allows for
subjective wiggle-room to creep into contesting any final decision that TG makes. Getting the
tapes, and verifying that they match what @xelnia presented and are unaltered and valid
copies of Billy's performances, takes time.

3 - Through the investigation, we have been able to bring to light the exact claimed capture
method of Billy's performances. That method starts with a TWO-BIT conversion board. TG
needed to get that to verify and test with it to further examine point #1. This takes time.
Incidentally, this was the way TG has 100% confirmed that Billy's tapes were not recorded
direct from Original DK Arcade machine to VHS recorder. Billy's footage definitely was
output to VHS by something that processed the TWO-BIT converter output.

4 - etc. etc.

The point is that it is very easy to rush to a conclusion based on initial assertions that seem
"obvious" but are not fully vetted, and it is fine for everyone to do that EXCEPT TG. TG has
to be the one place that goes through the painstaking detail to MAKE SURE. Our decision has
to withstand ongoing scrutiny, potential lawsuits, you name it. We have to always be able to
show that we looked at everything we reasonably could and gathered as much information as
possible before coming to a conclusion - and what ever conclusion we come to is entirely
supported by the presented evidence.

So this process has been very much about verifying the assertions made by this dispute and
making sure that the assumptions being made are not in error. It takes time to do this, but we
are reaching the end very soon.

03-17-2018, 11:03 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Exhibit A - 000733
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 733/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Would this not automatically disqualify Billy's submitted scores? They lied about the capture
process.

03-17-2018, 11:30 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Would this not automatically disqualify Billy's submitted scores? They lied about the capture
process.

No because it allows for the rebuttal assertion that they just did not remember correctly and
therefore didn't lie about it. Instead they were just "mistaken."

This then becomes a subjective situation.

What is more definitive is the tape content itself - which is why it is the focus.

03-17-2018, 11:34 PM
Tessman

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Walk into a bar and start photographing. See how long they tolerate it.

You asserted Apollo was breaking the law by recording, not that Funspot 'would likely tell
you to stop'. Funspot asking you to stop doesn't make it illegal either.

I dug through Flordia's Chapter on Security of Communications (934), and here's what I
found. The elements that are protected from recording are 'Wire, Oral, and Electronic
Communications', under some circumstances. We are dealing with the 'Oral' variety here
which is defined in 934.2 as follows:

Oral communication” means any oral communication uttered by a person exhibiting an

expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances
justifying such expectation...

Exhibit A - 000734
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 734/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

There are two things here. One, I sincerely doubt that you can argue for that you expect any
place of business where more than 2 people may be in the same room could lead to the
expectation that a conversation is private. Doing so would mean that any recording of any one
ever, in any building could result in a valid lawsuit, which is not the case.

Second, there is some fun case law regarding the term 'interception'. You can view it here. In
short, if you are circumstantially in range to casually hear a conversation in any location, you
are not 'intercepting' a private conversation by recording it.

So, once again, you made something up and hoped someone wouldn't call you out. Apollo can
legally record in Funspot. The management can ask him to stop, and they can even kick him
out, but to say he was breaking the law is an outright fabrication.

03-18-2018, 12:24 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

...Billy's footage definitely was output to VHS by something that processed the TWO-BIT
converter output.
....

my disagreement is likely just semantics as the rest of your post made pretty clear what was
meant. This does not prove the two bit converter was processed but rather proves the two bit
converter was not sent to a vcr unprocessed. The difference being your wording considered it
proven the converter was used when there’s other possibilities of the converter not being
processed if the converter was never used in the first place as the mame theory suggests.

this is slightly more than just semantics when you remember some people responded to the
mame allegations by pointing out no way a mame pc was in the cab completely missing the
point. The same people could read what you said and take that as proof you found a real
arcade was used but just can’t explain how it was processed however the mystery behind the
processing is irrelevant since jace already acknowledges a real game was used. Im not kidding
I mean yes I agree this would be a ridiculous statement but trust me I’m starting to get pretty
good at guessing what ridiculous statements they’ll come up with next

03-18-2018, 12:29 AM
Snowflake

I do respect considering any possibility where maybe one board out there under some
situations looked like mame. I’m remembering billy claiming he got his board certified.
Granted that proves nothing as he could’ve certified one board and played on something else
but I’d still be curious if you asked him to present that certification. Surely he wouldn’t go
through all the effort to certify the board just to keep that proof secret

03-18-2018, 12:30 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Exhibit A - 000735
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 735/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy's footage definitely was output to VHS by something that processed the TWO-BIT
converter output.

I have to make a special note here. This part of statement #3 is based on the assumption that
Billy's performances actually came out of an Original Arcade machine and passed through a
TWO-BIT converter in the first place.

Then a computer would have to be involved in order to account for the 180 degree screen
rotation that is viewed on Billy's tape.

Of course, if the performance is MAME, it would never have passed through a TWO-BIT
converter - BUT a computer output would still be involved.

03-18-2018, 05:00 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Would this not automatically disqualify Billy's submitted scores? They lied about the capture
process.

Jace weighed in that they could claim they "misremembered" so it's not an automatic DQ, but
I think it's safe to say that the credibility of Robert/Billy now rests at zero after Robert's
extensive and emphatic intervention in this "silly" dispute where he repeatedly described a
set-up that involved a Two-bit converter that was hooked up directly to a VCR. One can only
assume that in view of TG's conclusion that a computer must have been involved, Team Billy
sent out Carlos - and not Robert mind you, so perhaps Carlos is completely mistaken - to
introduce the alleged use of laptop for direct capture with a Gigaware converter.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post949192

I've included key passages from Robert below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximumsteve, posting for Robert Childs

As a witness to the event and technician who performed the game/equipment set-up for Billy
Mitchell, I can attest Billy did not submit his record scores playing on MAME. It all boils
down to this. When you hook up a 1980s era Donkey Kong board to a 2000s era RGB to
NTSC converter board and then run it to a 1970s technology VCR for recording God only
knows what it will do to the signal

Exhibit A - 000736
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 736/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

...

Those unfamiliar with the explained method of hook-up to record have raised an unnecessary
firestorm of innuendo and accusation. Said firestorm could easily have been avoided if Billy
Mitchell had first been asked instead of first being accused.

...

The converted video offers NO advantage to the player as the player never sees it during
gameplay. The converter signal is sent solely to the VCR.

...

The video converter is connected directly to the video output of the DK inverter board. The
inverter receives the video from the DK board itself NOT the Sanyo monitor that the player
sees from his view. The converter board does its job translating RGB to NTSC which
goes to the VCR and is recorded as the finalized media. There is NO possibility of an
advantage to the player using this method of recording.

I have a DK machine along with a two-bit score converter board,and VCR if you would
like to see Billy play another game on this setup and see the results this can be arranged in my
store in Fort Lauderdale

03-18-2018, 06:45 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Please tell me you knew this already.

RTM REPLY - not entirely correct...film makers are not entitled to place such placards
anywhere that they wish...they need permission from the appropriate level of management
when inside a private or commercial dwelling, and they need permission from the
municipality when filming on public ground. The exception to this would be in areas where
all filming is completely prohibited by law such as in a secure area (think certain military
installations and the like).

When KoK was being filmed at ACAM the film makers took it upon themselves...without the
permission of Funspot management, to place such placards at the various entrance points to
the ACAM arcade area. This was discovered maybe 30-45 minutes afterwards and then
immediately removed at the request of Funspot management.

Technically speaking, all film footage obtained during that brief time period should not have

Exhibit A - 000737
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 737/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

been incorporated into the film as unwitting participants never signed an appropriate release
form.

03-18-2018, 06:49 AM
RTM

Oh yes...laws governing film making can also vary by state, and possibly by city.

03-18-2018, 06:58 AM
Hotrod6045

It's most likely a SLAPP lawsuit that Apollo was hit/threatened with so he has to "disappear"
from public commenting about the dispute. Just about every state and the Federal court
system has anti-SLAPP statutes so Apollo, through an attorney (hopefully), can exercise that
relevant statute. I'm only speculating on that point.

Given what Jace said about potential lawsuits regarding the dispute, I understand why TG
took so long to get their ducks in a row. If they want to stand down a score for cheating, they
want to take what they have to court and prove "This person cheated" should TG face a
lawsuit.

03-18-2018, 07:08 AM
Snowflake

Noticing the orientation seemed correct in srokas video. I get confused which video was for
which score. If this just shows billy flipped it correctly once but not the other time whatever
50 50 chance but if the same performance was later flipped to be correct that would further
indicate the tampering was intentional and not just some fluke of recording

03-18-2018, 09:06 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Then a computer would have to be involved in order to account for the 180 degree screen
rotation that is viewed on Billy's tape.

Of course, if the performance is MAME, it would never have passed through a TWO-BIT
converter - BUT a computer output would still be involved.

Which means in either case, Robert Childs was 100% lying (again). When you read the
quoted matter-of-fact tone of his testimony, he couldn't reasonably do a 180 on that and claim
he was mistaken and 'forgot' the signal was processed before going to the VCR.

I do appreciated the lengths you're going through, and I understand with Billy's lawsuit-happy
ego, you've got to have all your bases covered. He more than likely will try some sort of legal
action, but please don't let him intimidate you with it. On a chess site I frequent, they caught
some grand masters cheating in chess games by using a computer. They would ban them and
flag their old account as having been removed for cheating. One master caught cheating had
money to sick lawyers on the web site, and in order to avoid the costs of defending the case in
Exhibit A - 000738
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 738/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

court, the web site owners wimped out and removed the cheating tag on the master's account.
Keep in mind the master really did cheat, but because they had money to burn on lawyers,
they made the web site back down. I just don't want to see anything like that happen here.

03-18-2018, 10:14 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

Wait he's suing Apollo? Wow, how pathetic haha! Billy really can be an ass at times. I thought
he was a nice guy but actually he seems more like the billy in KoK than I thought.

Sounds like the truth hurt and now he's crying over it... Haha! How sad. Get a grip.

03-18-2018, 10:24 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Wait he's suing Apollo? Wow, how pathetic haha! Billy really can be an ass at times. I thought
he was a nice guy but actually he seems more like the billy in KoK than I thought.

Sounds like the truth hurt and now he's crying over it... Haha! How sad. Get a grip.

to be fair, thats not confirmed. might just be a scare tactic. a billy fan page, written by
someone who uses the same speech patterns including attempts to sound poetic, overuse of
the word "detractors" and random capitaliizations that sure seem familair of one of billy's
more vocal fans made a post claiming apollo was facing legal issues hence the rumors. Since
the page outright states its not officially done by billy, what a surprise team billy is again
playing the game of setting up deniability, though it is strange they dont try to report this fake
page if they dont actualy stand by it

https://www.facebook.com/ISUPPORTBillyMitchell/

i'll let your decide for yousrelf if you think billy is behind it or not

03-18-2018, 10:30 AM
RTM
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

Exhibit A - 000739
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 739/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM REPLY - the recent lawsuit action, an attempt to stop someone from opening up
peoples' eyes to what potentially happened, is not the first time Bill has tried this stunt.

In late 2014 I received an E-MAIL from Joel West representing the interests of Walter and
Bill with regards to an unresolved stock issue, and had I signed the agreement I would be
blocked from discussing the matter for ten (10) years from date of signature, and considering
how much I know related to Walter's and Bill's antics over the years, this was tantamount to
offering me hush money.

Note that I was not the only recipient of this "offer"...I heard that as many as 17 or 18
recipients, including myself, received this "offer" and that I was the only one who did not sign
it. And while I have no idea who the other recipients were, it makes me wonder...maybe this
partially explains why so many other people from back-in-the-day are not chiming in to this
discussion.

I won't reprint the actual confidentiality agreement within this forum, but here is the original
E-MAIL that I received from Joel. Let me know privately if you find this "of interest".

Attachment 53043

03-18-2018, 11:01 AM
CraigA

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Attachment 52962

One more thing about that board swap video that people seem to have missed - The edge
connector on the top is recessed from the edge of the board. Only Donkey Kong Jr. is like
that. Donkey Kong PCB's have an edge connector that is flush with the rest of the board.

03-18-2018, 11:11 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000740
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 740/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - the recent lawsuit action, an attempt to stop someone from opening up
peoples' eyes to what potentially happened, is not the first time Bill has tried this stunt.

I won't reprint the actual confidentiality agreement within this forum, but here is the original
E-MAIL that I received from Joel. Let me know privately if you find this "of interest".

Attachment 53043

what a surprise, joel west, the guy who tried to silence you, the guys who's exact speech
patterns are used trying to silence apollo is also the guy who tried to silence me. I shared a
screenshot much earlier in this thread, so dont need to dig it up again as it is already burried
here somewhere. But the long and short of it was, he couldnt threaten or bribe me so he tried
to appeal to my fear in the most ridiculous way. He wanted the todd thread shut down, and his
reasoning was that joel himself knows of cheaters but choses to keep it secret, protecting
cheaters is the course of wisdom and I dont realize what damage I and others will cause if we
continue on this foolish path to get to the truth. He suggested if we continued looking we'd
eventually find something that would damage the commuinty so much it just not worth it.
Starting to wonder if he knew about bily's cheating all along, since thinking back it sure
sounds like thats they mystery piece of cheating he was talking about. He failed to realize of
course taking away his meal ticket if the awful truth comes out didnt exactly act as much of a
deterrent for anyone else

03-18-2018, 11:22 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigA

I've definitely seen that mentioned, might be in this thread somewhere or might have been on
DK forum, but it has definitely been discussed.

03-18-2018, 12:12 PM
rotunda

Taken from Billy's support page:

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000741
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 741/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This essentially is a page of support for Billy Mitchell during this time of false claims
and accusations. The detractors are getting their views out in multiple venomous
post. It is time those of us who TRUST, BELIEVE IN, HAVE WITNESSED HIS
GAME-PLAY and SUPPORT Billy to step up and say so.

21 people like this

21 people follow this

Way to go Bill... LOL! That's mum, dad, family and Todd Rogers I bet.

Seriously though. I had no idea he was this mental. What a head case...

03-18-2018, 01:04 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Taken from Billy's support page:

[/FONT][/COLOR]21 people like this

21 people follow this

Way to go Bill... LOL! That's mum, dad, family and Todd Rogers I bet.

Seriously though. I had no idea he was this mental. What a head case...

all while claiming billy has nothing to do with it but at the same time saying billy will
appreciate it. Also notice the cowardly author doesnt want any to know his name* yet he sure
is wiling to call other people out by name, name calling, making false statements, accusing
others of slander for saying the truth while slandering and bullying them. Report the page for
bullying the people it bullies.

*compare post on Joel West's wall purely for entertainment purposes, iIm not saying its him,
Exhibit A - 000742
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 742/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

this is for entertainment only. notice super long diatribes repeating over and over what can
easily be said in few words. A love of the word "detractor". An obsession with Patrick Scott
Patterson and Cat DeSpira just assuming anything anti-billy must be come from them (to be
fair this item is shared by all of billy's group). Speaking from authority as a righteous figure
talking down to us sinners. Attempts to throw in phrases that are almost poetic but really
arent. Random capitalization of words throughout (to be fair this is something both joel and
rudy do, I do confuse those two some of the time). Demanding the tribunal be shut down
rather than providing counter evidence. Gushing about how awesome billy is. But anyway,
definitely not saying its joel, just find it entertaining how similiar it is to his writing style.

03-18-2018, 01:07 PM
Snowflake
1 Attachment(s)

Also fir entertainment only lol Attachment 53045

03-18-2018, 04:12 PM
Jace Hall
1 Attachment(s)

For those that are interested in contributing:

It is important to note that some of Billy's performances were recorded pre-2006. I can't
remember the exact date of Billy's 1MM+ score announcement at the moment but I think it
was in 2005 at some point.

This means that if MAME was used, the only versions that could have been used were
versions that existed before 2006, and perhaps mid-2005.

It would be helpful and save time if the community could examine these versions of MAME
and see if they can produce the MAME gameplay signature "finger-girder" screen.

Attachment 53054

We have been in process on this too, however it would be helpful to have 3rd party
confirmation on which versions produce this effect (if at all) and which do not - so we can
match that up with our findings.

Here is a list of all the MAME versions:

http://mamedev.org/oldrel.html

03-18-2018, 04:22 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

definitely not saying its joel, just find it entertaining how similiar it is to his writing style.

RTM REPLY - don't know how to do this myself, but is it possible to check the IP address of
Exhibit A - 000743
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 743/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

who posted that as well as some of the other known posts made by Joel to see if they are one
in the same ?

03-18-2018, 04:31 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

For those that are interested in contributing:

This means that if MAME was used, the only versions that could have been used were
versions that existed before 2006, and perhaps mid-2005.

RTM REPLY - Jace, from 2001-2005 TG accepted the following in order...

MAME 32 build 58
MAME 32 build 62
MAME 35TG3 (supposedly designed due to TGTS needs)
WolfMAME 78
WolfMAME 106

Inbetween 78 and 106 there was, if I remember, a brief period where for very specific titles
like "Popeye" either WolfMAME 84 or 88 was allowed...can't remember why, though.

However, assuming Bill used a TG-approved version of MAME, these are the ones I'd
recommend to start focusing on...but if he used any other than it is anyone's guess as to
which.

03-18-2018, 07:00 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

For those that are interested in contributing:

This means that if MAME was used, the only versions that could have been used were
versions that existed before 2006, and perhaps mid-2005.

It would be helpful and save time if the community could examine these versions of MAME
and see if they can produce the MAME gameplay signature "finger-girder" screen.

Attachment 53054
Exhibit A - 000744
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 744/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Here is a list of all the MAME versions:

http://mamedev.org/oldrel.html

Do you want it recorded to VHS? Example - MAME- Video out of computer card to VHS?
Then captured, or taped mailed?

03-18-2018, 07:37 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Do you want it recorded to VHS? Example - MAME- Video out of computer card to VHS?
Then captured, or taped mailed?

The capture method should make no difference in how the game populates.

03-18-2018, 07:38 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Also this video is on youtube and has some of the transitions.

03-18-2018, 09:55 PM
deverett

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

You're missing the point. The two-bit converter orientates the direct feed such that the blue
drum is in the upper left, not the lower right.

This was not in response to blue barrel positions. It was to address posts that did not
understand why a TV would need to be on it's side.

03-18-2018, 10:00 PM
Tessman
14 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

For those that are interested in contributing:

This means that if MAME was used, the only versions that could have been used were
versions that existed before 2006, and perhaps mid-2005.
Exhibit A - 000745
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 745/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

It would be helpful and save time if the community could examine these versions of MAME
and see if they can produce the MAME gameplay signature "finger-girder" screen.

Attachment 53054

Here is a list of all the MAME versions:

http://mamedev.org/oldrel.html

I ran through arbitrary versions of MAME to attempt to generate this data.

What I found suggests the following:

The 'finger' starts showing up at MAME v116, but the screen renders a little blue, so the first
time the screen is pure black and renders the finger is v117. This does not represent
exhaustive testing and does not represent ultra-scientific information gathering.

The methodology was as follows:

1. Download a given version of MAME

The gallery of results can be found here:

https://imgur.com/a/mEMic
Attachment 53064
Attachment 53071
Attachment 53070
Attachment 53069
Attachment 53068
Attachment 53067
Attachment 53066
Attachment 53065
Attachment 53072
Attachment 53073
Attachment 53074
Attachment 53075
Attachment 53076
Attachment 53077

03-18-2018, 10:19 PM
Tessman

I botched the titling of those screenshots, but the mouse over data has the versions on them.
The Imgur site also has them.
Exhibit A - 000746
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 746/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I should also add that testing any version of MAME before 51 is impossible on my setup as
those version fail to run on x64 hardware.

03-18-2018, 10:47 PM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

I botched the titling of those screenshots, but the mouse over data has the versions on them.
The Imgur site also has them.

I should also add that testing any version of MAME before 51 is impossible on my setup as
those version fail to run on x64 hardware.

You should be able to run these in "Compatibility Mode" for Windows XP. Right-click the
*.exe file (or its shortcut), select Properties and click on Compatibility tab.You can run older
32-bit programs that way, but not 16-bit anymore.

03-18-2018, 11:08 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmell

Do you want it recorded to VHS? Example - MAME- Video out of computer card to VHS?
Then captured, or taped mailed?

No, just screenshot proof with MAME version number here in the thread is fine.

We can replicate it from there or match it up to our already present data.

03-18-2018, 11:14 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

I ran through arbitrary versions of MAME to attempt to generate this data.

What I found suggests the following:

The methodology was as follows:

1. Download a given version of MAME

2. Run donkey kong
3. Let the first level load.
4. Capture the application output via Nvidia Shadowplay.
5. Use VLC to find the 1st loading frame of the stage.
6. Record result and do the same with another version of MAME.
Exhibit A - 000747
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 747/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Please do these tests again, enable cheats and this time set cpu0 to 99% - please let us know
what you find.

03-18-2018, 11:22 PM
Tessman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Please do these tests again, enable cheats and this time set cpu0 to 99% - please let us know
what you find.

Shall do.

I'm going to head to bed tonight, but I'll repost the results tomorrow.

03-19-2018, 02:26 AM
airmaverick
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Please do these tests again, enable cheats and this time set cpu0 to 99% - please let us know
what you find.

In follow up to Tessman's work, I tried 0.116/0.117 with a sample of random versions around
there.
Also a slight change to method:

1) Load mame in command prompt (windows binary version) "mame dkong -cheat"
2) Once in game press 'F8' / 'F9' to switch frameskip to 0
3) Start game and on the "How high can you get?" screen press 'P'
4) then I kept pressing 'Shift+P' to advance one frame at a time in mame until the first frame
of the barrel board
5) press 'F12' to take a screen shot

Note samples of first frame of first barrel board only

03-19-2018, 03:41 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

For those that are interested in contributing:

This means that if MAME was used, the only versions that could have been used were
versions that existed before 2006, and perhaps mid-2005.

Exhibit A - 000748
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 748/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

According to http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.ca/20...d-history.html Billy's 1.047 score was

originally verified at Funspot on 4 June 2005. In this scenario, the latest possible MAME
release theoretically possible is 0.96 (released 3 May 2005).

It's been noted that Billy's 1.047 score was exactly 100,000 points higher than Steve Wiebe's
submission of 947,200, achieved 30 June 2003, which was subsequently disallowed. Over the
intervening months of 2004, Steve bested that original score a few times (which were rejected
or not verified), so the deliberate focus on 947,200 suggests that Billy may have achieved a
1.047 score between 30 June 2003 and May/June 2004, when Steve's next scores were
submitted. MAME Version 0.69 was released 23 May 2003, but of course earlier versions
could have been used.

03-19-2018, 03:55 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

According to http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.ca/20...d-history.html Billy's 1.047 score was
originally verified at Funspot on 4 June 2005. In this scenario, the latest possible MAME
release theoretically possible is 0.96 (released 3 May 2005).

Were there beta builds?

03-19-2018, 04:03 AM
airmaverick
2 Attachment(s)

Same test as my last post but this time I 'Shift+P' to advance through the first five frames
(until donkey kong appears)

I note that newer versions seem to load in five frames and show less girders on frame 1, while
the older versions all loaded in 4 frames. Seems to show to me how the mame versions have
progressed over time.

Also no difference between version 0.53 and 0.56.

Note again first frames of first barrel board only.

03-19-2018, 04:05 AM
airmaverick

Correction - Should say also no difference between 0.53 and 0.96

03-19-2018, 05:14 AM
The Evener
Exhibit A - 000749
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 749/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I know that the YouTube copy of the 1.047 run is not the best quality but the first example of
the finger girder I could identify is the barrel of level 3. I know with camera capture that the
rendering of the first two barrels is missing frames, but for the record would we expect
MAME to render the transition exactly the same way? I recall an earlier discussion of even
and odd frames, sorry may not be applicable here.

03-19-2018, 06:01 AM
Barthax
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by airmaverick

Correction - Should say also no difference between 0.53 and 0.96

There's also no difference back into the DOS days - 0.36b4 through 0.37b14 produce the same
4-screen creation process. 0.36b4 was the first MAME with SHIFT+P pausing. For anything
older, screen capture would be necessary (even with DOS Box running at 1% cycles, my
button mashing isn't fast enough to pause between frames).

Attachment 53094

03-19-2018, 11:27 AM
francoisadt

Exactly! the source to the two-bit converter could be the processing at the laptop. So TG
should not ask for the VHS tapes because the VHS tapes is not the original but actually a
copy of the source - the digital video on the laptop is the source.
Once a video is recorded during streaming the first recorded instance whether digital or actual
tape is then the
original.

So TG should ask for the original digital recording as recorded on the laptop while the game
was "proposedly" played
on the DK Machine.

If TG examine the VHS tapes it is a copy of what was recorded in the first place.

Who owns the laptop and can the laptop handed over to TG for examination?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Would this not automatically disqualify Billy's submitted scores? They lied about the capture
process.

03-19-2018, 11:28 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

Who owns the laptop and can the laptop handed over to TG for examination?
Exhibit A - 000750
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 750/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

No one trustworthy.

03-19-2018, 11:33 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Please do these tests again, enable cheats and this time set cpu0 to 99% - please let us know
what you find.

This is right up my alley. I've downloaded every version of MAME from 2001 all the way to
2007. I'll make sure these params are set, and then I will use OBS Studio to record the live
feed, then VLC player to frame advance. Then I'll title each image and zip them all together.
This is going to take me a couple days to knock this out with how many versions there are
over those 6 years, but I'm on it.

03-19-2018, 11:37 AM
Hotrod6045

I highly doubt TG can get the original laptop/video file without some semi-plausible excuse
being given.

As in, "We sold it for something better years ago" or "I accidentally the hard drive and we lost
the video."

03-19-2018, 11:37 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Please post as you complete not a big dump when you finish. Smaller updates would be neat.

03-19-2018, 12:01 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Please post as you complete not a big dump when you finish. Smaller updates would be neat.

No problem. There will be a summary post if I find anything that is important.

I'm starting backwards from MAME 0.117. In that version, there's a pause and frame advance
feature with screenshot dumping, so I will use this method until/unless it becomes no longer
available in the earlier versions. So far so good though.

Exhibit A - 000751
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 751/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-19-2018, 12:22 PM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
0.96 Eh

[QUOTE=The Evener;957701]According to http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.ca/20...d-

history.html Billy's 1.047 score was originally verified at Funspot on 4 June 2005. In this
scenario, the latest possible MAME release theoretically possible is 0.96 (released 3 May
2005).

Hmm that interesting in 2005 there was a torrent of a CD 700mb floating around for mame
0.96, it had a large number of rom`s and all so had a install shed to place the folders and
directory a long with two Desk to icons one to start mame and one with control institution`s
on how to set up mame ,,, my point is it was a vary popular download that could be burn to a
cd and giving to your buddy for an easy self install , it was dated maybe someone hand this
off to Billy :) Attachment 53115

03-19-2018, 12:22 PM
Robert.F
0.96 Eh

[QUOTE=The Evener;957701]According to http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.ca/20...d-

history.html Billy's 1.047 score was originally verified at Funspot on 4 June 2005. In this
scenario, the latest possible MAME release theoretically possible is 0.96 (released 3 May
2005).

Hmm that interesting in 2006 there was a torrent of a CD 700mb floating around for mame
0.96, it had a large number of rom`s and all so had a install shed to place the folders and
directory a long with two Desk to icons one to start mame and one with control institution`s
on how to set up mame ,,, my point is it was a vary popular download that could be burn to a
cd and giving to your buddy for an easy self install , it was dated maybe someone hand this
off to Billy :) Attachment 53115

03-19-2018, 12:39 PM
FBX

Before I get too far into this, how do I set cpu0 to 99%? I saw the command line for enabling
cheats was simply -cheat, but I don't know about the cpu0 setting. Is this done outside of
Mame?

03-19-2018, 02:04 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Before I get too far into this, how do I set cpu0 to 99%? I saw the command line for enabling
cheats was simply -cheat, but I don't know about the cpu0 setting. Is this done outside of
Mame?

Say what? The color of capacities on a on a 37 year old pcb is irrelevant, capacities do fail
and are replace with ones of other colors :)

03-19-2018, 02:09 PM
WCopeland
Exhibit A - 000752
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 752/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I recorded this with MAME94, released in 2005.

https://youtu.be/N1ZhfYmqxYA

https://i.imgur.com/pRQzi1D.png

03-19-2018, 02:16 PM
WCopeland

I recorded this with MAME53, released in 2001.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAgBMeYKqBY

https://i.imgur.com/HPALXzw.png

03-19-2018, 02:32 PM
WCopeland
1 Attachment(s)

Here's the far more likely solution of what happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvuJ...ature=youtu.be

By enabling cheats and setting the refresh rate to 60.60fps (the arcade machine's rate) instead
of MAME's default 60fps, the girder tail draws every time. Recorded with MAME94,
released in 2005.

Attachment 53122

03-19-2018, 03:13 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

Here's the far more likely solution of what happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvuJ...ature=youtu.be

By enabling cheats and setting the refresh rate to 60.60fps (the arcade machine's rate) instead
of MAME's default 60fps, the girder tail draws every time. Recorded with MAME94,
released in 2005.

So how do I set that refresh rate in the command line version of MAME?

03-19-2018, 03:15 PM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

So how do I set that refresh rate in the command line version of MAME?

To my knowledge, there is no way to set the refresh rate by using a flag in the command line.
I initialized the game like so:
Exhibit A - 000753
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 753/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

mame -w -cheat dkong

Press the tilde key on the keyboard. When the HUD appears, you can press up and down to
select different options. The modifier keys (SHIFT, CTRL, etc.) can be used to make refined
adjustments.

03-19-2018, 03:19 PM
Desidious
2 Attachment(s)
Extra extra!! Read all about it!!

Looks like one of the biggest gaming magazines has already come up with your answer! This
is very interesting indeed.

Attachment 53127
Attachment 53128

03-19-2018, 03:19 PM
FBX

Nevermind, I just figured out it was the tilde button to bring up that options menu. You
navigate to the refresh rate, and then hold the shift button while you change it to 60.600
refresh rate. This confirmed cause the "Finger"!!!

03-19-2018, 03:21 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desidious

Looks like one of the biggest gaming magazines has already come up with your answer! This
is very interesting indeed.

Attachment 53127
Attachment 53128

TG already made the decision say, gotta love fake news magazines. seriously though, thats
unfair to billy to falsely claim ahead of time, its unfair to tg to lie about tg, and its unfair to its
readers to waste their time. I really hate fake news

03-19-2018, 03:30 PM
Desidious

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Fake news in one of the most prestigious gaming mags of all time??? No way...
Exhibit A - 000754
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 754/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-19-2018, 03:32 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desidious

Fake news in one of the most prestigious gaming mags of all time??? No way...

i think you're confusing prestigious with prolific. Just cause they pump out crap at a rapid
pace doesnt make it prestigious

03-19-2018, 03:36 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desidious

Fake news in one of the most prestigious gaming mags of all time??? No way...

This is probably their April magazine. They probably got confirmation from TG but said "this
is for the April issue"

03-19-2018, 03:41 PM
FBX
2 Attachment(s)

I've been confirming setting the refresh rate to 60.600 causes the "finger" in all prior versions
of Mame before 0.116 going back to version 90 (I still need to test before version 90, but
version 90 came out in January 2005). See these images below of version 0.90 and 0.113 as
random examples:

Attachment 53130Attachment 53131

Furthermore, you don't even need to record the footage. As I mentioned before, you can pause
the emulation by pressing the "P" button, and the hold the "Shift" button while pressing the
"P" button to frame advance one frame at a time. Both images above are screen dumps using
"F12" button (which I then double-sized and labeled).

A big THANK YOU to Wes for informing us about the refresh rate setting! I was starting to
get worried when I couldn't get the 'finger' to show in versions older than 0.116. But now we
know the method!

03-19-2018, 03:44 PM
Desidious
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

i think you're confusing prestigious with prolific. Just cause they pump out crap at a rapid
pace doesnt make it prestigious

This literally their title, there's no way a magazine could be false.

Attachment 53132
Exhibit A - 000755
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 755/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-19-2018, 03:53 PM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desidious

This literally their title, there's no way a magazine could be false.

This is bloating the dispute thread and is in no way constructive or helpful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

A big THANK YOU to Wes for informing us about the refresh rate setting!

Thanks for doing additional tests and confirming the findings. Hopefully it advances the
dispute a little further. I just want to convey I am not the person who found this information; it
was a tip from someone who is staying anonymous and I just did some tests.

03-19-2018, 04:02 PM
Desidious

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

This is bloating the dispute thread and is in no way constructive or helpful.

Are you the big bad thread admin? I could say your response is clutter too. Whoopty doo.

03-19-2018, 04:04 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

I just want to convey I am not the person who found this information; it was a tip from
someone who is staying anonymous and I just did some tests.

WOW! That sounds to me like a whistle blower!

At any rate, it now shows that there's literally no explanation left for the "finger" in Billy's
tapes. We now have proof you can reproduce this same effect in older versions of MAME
prior to 0.116. That's a 100% checkmate and 'game over' for Billy.

03-19-2018, 04:23 PM
homerwannabee

OK, when I went to the Kong Off 6 this was a big time discussion among Billy defenders. To
me, I had no way to refute it, and only responded with, "I'll wait to see what the other side
says before I make a decision, and if the other side doesn't have an explanation for why the
girder finger shows before MAME 116 happens, than the dispute isn't worthy, but this
explanation of why it shows up before MAME 116 puts me back on the Billy used MAME
camp.

03-19-2018, 04:40 PM
Exhibit A - 000756
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 756/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Just tracked down the earliest version of MAME that allows for setting the Refresh Rate to
60.6 with Cheats enables. Ladies and Gents, I present to you the "Billy Killer":

Attachment 53136

Version prior to 0.85 I tested don't have the refresh rate option, but do have the CPU
overclock settings, which can also mess with the girder drawing. However, they went in 5%
increments, so I couldn't figure out how to do 1% increments on them. Neverthless, version
0.85 having come out in summer of 2004 is well early enough for Billy's tapes timeline.

03-19-2018, 04:43 PM
Prophecyrob
Nickname

As a throwback to the late 70’s when Saturday morning cartoons had the Superfriends and the
Legion of Doom, our new group of villains could be nicknamed the Cheat Elite. So far there
is Steve Sanders and Todd Rogers and possibly Billy to be added shortly. Did Dwayne
Richards cheat at Nibbler??? Anyway, I guess their nut hangers (Childs, Walter, Carlos and
Richie) can be lumped in too.

#CheatElite

03-19-2018, 04:48 PM
***PL***

According to the MAMEDEV log files, the dkong VSync was corrected starting with MAME
0.116

From MAMEINFO.txt...

- 0.116: Couriersud implemented discrete sound from schematics in Donkey Kong. Color
generation from schematics (resistor mixer). Replaced DAC/Samples sound with Discrete.
Removed all samples. Changed VSync to 60.606061 Hz.

03-19-2018, 04:57 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by PL

According to the MAMEDEV log files, the dkong VSync was corrected starting with MAME
0.116

From MAMEINFO.txt...

Exhibit A - 000757
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 757/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Which explains why the 'finger' happens be default, whereas prior versions required using the
cheat refresh rate setting. Again I have to say it was very sly on Billy's part to set the refresh
rate to match the arcade, but I speculate he had help from a tech that knew these subtle
details. In any case, that 'finger' now cannot be denied by his defenders. We now have proof
you can replicate the effect all the way back to August of 2004.

03-19-2018, 05:05 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I don't know the publication, but to my mind the piece is either like when a pre-written obit
for a prominent celebrity leaks out before it was meant to, or it risks being a "Dewey Defeats
Truman"-type headline. That said, I think the evidence is overwhelming - I'm not sure about
the potential punishment is all.

03-19-2018, 05:10 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Updated the "Finger" photo spread with the latest research:

Attachment 53139

03-19-2018, 05:16 PM
Jace Hall
2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by homerwannabee

One of the things we are trying to determine is whether or not this signature finger girder
scenario can be produced by actual original DK Arcade hardware under any circumstance to
explain its repeated appearance in Billy's performances.

We have a Two-Bit Converter and an original DK arcade machine and will be running further
tests by recording it's output directly to a VHS recorder and seeing if the "finger-girder" ever
appears.

If anyone out there with an original DK arcade board wants to try to see if they can get it to
produce the "finger-girder" display under normal play conditions, we encourage you to do so
and post your findings to this dispute thread.
Exhibit A - 000758
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 758/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Attachment 53141

Attachment 53140

03-19-2018, 05:20 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

Here's the far more likely solution of what happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvuJ...ature=youtu.be

By enabling cheats and setting the refresh rate to 60.60fps (the arcade machine's rate) instead
of MAME's default 60fps, the girder tail draws every time. Recorded with MAME94,
released in 2005.

Your first two examples of MAME94 and MAME53 suggest that you were able to replicate
the girder tail without adjusting refresh rates. Is that the case? Just wanted to clarify for my
understanding whether one must adjust the refresh for the girder tail to appear.

03-19-2018, 05:37 PM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

It can be seen by either underclocking the CPU to 99% or by adjusting the refresh rate.

I'm not sure if this means it would be "naturally" reproduced on a slow computer that was
running MAME at only 99% speed... that would be an interesting test.

I think it's far more likely scenario that if one were to cheat by passing off a MAME
performance as an authentic arcade performance, they would set the internal refresh rate to
match the arcade's. This is also around the time that Steve Wiebe's performances were drawn
into question over the speed of the gameplay.

03-19-2018, 05:40 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We have a Two-Bit Converter and an original DK arcade machine and will be running further
tests by recording it's output directly to a VHS recorder and seeing if the "finger-girder" ever
appears.

If anyone out there with an original DK arcade board wants to try to see if they can get it to
Exhibit A - 000759
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 759/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

produce the "finger-girder" display under normal play conditions, we encourage you to do so
and post your findings to this dispute thread.

Didn't we already see that the original hardware never draws those first two girders by
themselves, but rather instead draws at least two more in the same sweeping motion? I mean,
by the time it even gets that far into the 2nd girder, the 3rd and 4th are already being drawn on
the screen (as seen in my photo spread). I can't imagine how that Two-Bit converter could
possibly change the drawing behavior of the transition such that:

A: the 3rd and 4th girders are absent.

and

B: it just so happens to draw the same 'finger' that MAME does.

It's clearly a MAME anomaly, and the chances of that converter 'magically' causing the same
effect are NIL.

03-19-2018, 05:50 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by homerwannabee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We have a Two-Bit Converter and an original DK arcade machine and will be running further
tests by recording it's output directly to a VHS recorder and seeing if the "finger-girder" ever
appears.

Exhibit A - 000760
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 760/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

pie/cement factory. So to hear that Billy supporters were clinging to the girder tail as this
massive flaw in the evidence and the catalyst for Billy's salvation is a bit weird to hear.

03-19-2018, 05:50 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

A: the 3rd and 4th girders are absent.

and

B: it just so happens to draw the same 'finger' that MAME does.

It's clearly a MAME anomaly, and the chances of that converter 'magically' causing the same
effect are NIL.

We have to be as comprehensive and as unbiased as possible as we examine this. All

reasonable possibilities need to be examined to the extent we are reasonably able.

03-19-2018, 05:58 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We have to be as comprehensive and as unbiased as possible as we examine this. All
reasonable possibilities need to be examined to the extent we are reasonably able.

Fair enough. I'm just glad the whistler blower sent Wes that info about the refresh rate. Not
only does it blow the last desperate defense the Billy defenders had about his tapes surfacing
before MAME 0.116, but it also even further shows the extent of the deception: To set the
refresh rate to match the arcade of 60.6 shows just how sneaky and conniving the whole affair
is on Billy's part.

03-19-2018, 06:01 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

I appreciate the thoroughness, but to discuss this issue further for the benefit of detractors, we
can all agree that both arcade and MAME share certain transition characteristics - they both
produce girders and ladders, for example. Even if there was a scenario where a finger girder
similarly appeared, the evidence rests on how (or the manner in which) elements appear on
screen that are distinctive to arcade and MAME. And not to bury people with evidence, but I
think it's fair to remind detractors at the Kong Off and elsewhere that Xelnia's evidence
package also identified MAME-unique transitions for rivets, springboard/elevators, and
Exhibit A - 000761
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 761/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

pie/cement factory. So to hear that Billy supporters were clinging to the girder tail as this
massive flaw in the evidence and the catalyst for Billy's salvation is a bit weird to hear.

i'm sorry, i really thought i was up to date with this. I missed the "flaw". can you elaborate. or,
if it was already stated in this thread, can you point me to the comment?

03-19-2018, 06:07 PM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

i'm sorry, i really thought i was up to date with this. I missed the "flaw". can you elaborate. or,
if it was already stated in this thread, can you point me to the comment?

Up until this point, we were unable to reproduce the girder tail in the versions of MAME that
were available at the time we suspect Billy crafted his million-point games. However, we
were able to reproduce it in versions that were released shortly after our suspected timeframe.

Now we're able to consistently reproduce it in versions of MAME that were around years
before the tapes were created, and we understand why there was a discrepancy after Pat
Lafayette shared an excerpt from MAME's release notes.

03-19-2018, 06:09 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

i'm sorry, i really thought i was up to date with this. I missed the "flaw". can you elaborate. or,
if it was already stated in this thread, can you point me to the comment?

The flaw was that MAME didn't show the girder 'finger' until version 0.116, which came out
after his tapes were know to have surfaced. However, we now know that as early as version
0.85, which came out well BEFORE his tapes surfaced, can show the exact same 'finger'
anomaly by enabling cheats and setting the refresh rate to match the arcade of 60.6 Hz.

03-19-2018, 06:11 PM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

That's why you already chose an end date? It's because you're not done and are still looking
for evidence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision.
Exhibit A - 000762
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 762/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

We have a Two-Bit Converter and an original DK arcade machine and will be running further
tests by recording it's output directly to a VHS recorder and seeing if the "finger-girder" ever
appears.

But didn't you already prove the straight to VHS claim to be false?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

So this 100% means that a computer must have output Billy's tapes.

03-19-2018, 06:11 PM
FBX

Also I should point out of course that apparently the 99% CPU0 setting also shows the
'finger', but I've yet to figure out how to set the increment to 1% instead of 5% in MAME
0.84. If anyone knows how to do that, please let me know.

03-19-2018, 06:12 PM
WCopeland

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

One of the modifier keys (CTRL, SHIFT, etc.) will give you more granular increments. I can't
remember which I used, but just hold them down and try pressing left and right.

03-19-2018, 06:13 PM
xelnia

The panel was introduced by Walter Day. After Walter spoke briefly about TG and his support
for Billy, Carlos Pineiro gave a brief summary of his findings (much aligned with the video he
posted...which ignores or misinterprets the major points in the dispute). Carlos then brought
up the girder tail/MAME version discrepancy. Following Carlos, TriForce Johnson spoke,
claiming to act as a neutral party. He essentially repeated Carlos' points (even the "fact" that a
frame only lasts 2/3 of a second!). Both Carlos and TriForce took a couple questions from the
audience. Billy was standing in the doorway of the room and took several questions
throughout the discussion. The only question I asked during the discussion was directed to
Billy, and I asked him the date and location of his 1,047,200 game. He said he couldn't
remember the date but that it happened at "Rob's arcade." Several moments later he told the
Exhibit A - 000763
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 763/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

audience that while he couldn't answer technical questions, he has a great memory and could
answer questions on history. ¯\_(ãƒ„)_/¯ George Riley asked about the board swap video,
which I'll expand upon below, and shortly afterwards the discussion wrapped up. TriForce
recorded the panel, along with at least one other audience member...so I expect there will be
video footage soon.

My two main takeaways from the panel:

1) Carlos and TriForce made a very big deal about the MAME version history point, claiming
that Billy's games couldn't be MAME if they happened before the girder tail appeared in
MAME. That was refuted in under 24 hours and those results have already been posted here.
Carlos also claimed he was working on replicating the tail on arcade and once he did so
would share the process with others.

2) Billy's answer to George Riley regarding the board swap video: yes, it was staged. Using
words like "idiot" and "lazy" to refer to Robert Childs, he claimed that after they all went to
dinner (presumably after the DKJR score was achieved) they came back to film that footage
for Childs' YouTube channel and that Childs didn't bother to get the DK PCB.

03-19-2018, 06:16 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

ah thx, there were a few things i misinterperted, and at risk at sounding stupid i'll say my flaw
outloud in case anyone else made the same mistake.

i saw much talk of the "finger" and foolishly i thought it was a metaphor, like "finger of
mame" "handiwork of mame" i thought it was just refering to the up to down drawing as
opposed to the angled drawing.

Also, i did see much talk about analyzing older versions of mame. I thought this was strange,
because while you have to look for hte possibility of one special prototype arcade out there
and analyze all sorts of things to prove arcade cant do it, you would only need one version of
mame creating this. thx, this also explains my confusion there.

the "finger" is so blurry, this may be a dumb question but I have to ask, couldnt that just be
attributed to blur or something like that?

Also, am i too understand team billy's newest defense is "Thats a flaw. the version of mame
billy used would never do that, billy used an older version of mame where that doesnt
happen"?

03-19-2018, 06:19 PM
WCopeland
Exhibit A - 000764
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 764/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

the "finger" is so blurry, this may be a dumb question but I have to ask, couldnt that just be
attributed to blur or something like that?

Pixels are pixels. It appears for only one frame, but it's what MAME is outputting.

What's great about this evidence is that anyone who wants to take the time can download the
appropriate version of MAME and repro it themselves. It took me about 10 minutes to set up
MAME with cheats on and capture some footage, and the girder tail is clear as day all the way
back to MAME builds from 2001.

03-19-2018, 06:23 PM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

TriForce recorded the panel, along with at least one other audience member...so I expect there
will be video footage soon.

I waited all weekend for that panel, why wasn't it streaming with everything else?

03-19-2018, 06:23 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

the "finger" is so blurry, this may be a dumb question but I have to ask, couldnt that just be
attributed to blur or something like that?

It's actually distinctly visible. Here's an imgur link that you should be able to cleanly see the
'finger' in each example:

https://i.imgur.com/W0KNRDP.jpg

Zoom in if your browser resizes it.

03-19-2018, 06:42 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

One of the modifier keys (CTRL, SHIFT, etc.) will give you more granular increments. I can't
remember which I used, but just hold them down and try pressing left and right.

I was getting tripped up by the shift button. Turns out it was the CTRL button. At any rate
here's direct confirmation the CPU0 = 99% has the exact same effect in MAME versions
older than 0.85:
Exhibit A - 000765
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 765/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Attachment 53145

So now we know that this anomaly can be reproduced in MAME going back many years
before Billy's tapes (as you said). I just wanted to see it for myself, and yep, exact same
anomaly.

Now the issue of 'Carlos' seeing about reproducing this anomaly in real hardware: If he
manages to produce a demonstration of the same effect on real hardware, he better post
EXACTLY how to do it so that anyone can replicate it independent of being a Billy defender.

But as also has been said, it's not just simply that 'finger', but a whole myriad of other MAME
similarities in Billy's tapes. These points taken as a whole should not be lost in the hyper
focus on that anomaly.

03-19-2018, 06:46 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

My two main takeaways from the panel:

Someone can post a link to Wes' post in the comments as an "update" once the video is
posted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

Robert Childs, meet bus.

03-19-2018, 06:53 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Robert Childs, meet bus.

And this right here is already enough to ban Billy. He's in the video with Robert playing along
with the deception. Since he now admits the whole thing was a lie, that's a confessed attempt
to deceive the public on video game record performances.

03-19-2018, 06:58 PM
Tessman Exhibit A - 000766
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 766/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

How do I scale CPU0 to 99% in MAME? I can't say I've ever done that before and finding the
knob to turn has got me stumped.

I'd like to add my own findings to the evidence pile if there is still a need for that.

03-19-2018, 07:02 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

How do I scale CPU0 to 99% in MAME? I can't say I've ever done that before and finding the
knob to turn has got me stumped.

I'd like to add my own findings to the evidence pile if there is still a need for that.

How I did it in MAME 0.84:

1. Run the command line prompt in the MAME folder: mame dkong -cheat

2. After the game is booted, press the ~ button (tilde).

3. Use the down arrow key to navigate to CPU0. It will be at 100%.

4. Hold the CTRL button while you use the left/right arrows to change the percentage by 1%.

5. Press the ~ (tilde) button again to enact the new settings.

03-19-2018, 07:19 PM
Tessman
1 Attachment(s)

Thanks for the instructions!

On MAME v0.89 w/CPU0 @ 99%:

Attachment 53146

03-19-2018, 07:45 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

I got curious and decided to see just how far back I could get old versions of command-line
MAME working on my computer. Below is the oldest:

Attachment 53147

03-19-2018, 08:05 PM
FBX

So to recap for those that missed it:

The girder 'finger' can be replicated on the following versions of MAME in the following
methods:
Exhibit A - 000767
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 767/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

MAME 0.56 to 0.84: Cheats enabled, CPU0 set to 99%. Dates from November 2001 to July
2004

MAME 0.85 to 0.115: Cheats enabled, refresh rate set to 60.600 (approximate match of
arcade version). Instead of changing the refresh rate, the original trick of setting CPU0 to 99%
still works in these versions. Dates from August 2004 to May 2007.

MAME 0.116: Shows up by new default of arcade refresh rate, but shows a blue background.
June 2007

MAME 0.117: Shows up by default of arcade refresh rate, and is back to showing a black
background. July 2007

And we can stop there.

03-19-2018, 08:30 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Agreed, that video at this point was staged to make it “more official”. Wasn’t the two refs
enough for them? They had to go out of their way after dinner? Is there video of Billy
admitting that was staged by chance from the weekend?

03-19-2018, 09:08 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

I'm glad someone finally mentioned this. Seems to me that this kind of frame-advancing
technique would do wonders for generating conspicuously aggressive gameplay that
nonetheless still manages to avoid death.

03-19-2018, 09:17 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

This brings up an interesting point, incidentally. I think I know enough about Billy Mitchell
that I would not expect him to be aware of the potential necessity of setting a seemingly
Exhibit A - 000768
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 768/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

arbitrary refresh rate. I myself have used MAME for decades and I wouldn't have been
cognizant of the distinction (but then I don't own a DK cabinet). Thus it is easy for me to
conclude that the entire process was set up for him by someone who would have that kind of
insight. This perhaps goes without saying, since for starters one would need to understand the
need for rotating the image 90 degrees.

Any names leaping to mind?

Having said all that, of course, whoever was in charge of the technical side of this deceit then
went and got the rotation 180 degrees wrong, and mistakenly produced 30fps videos.

03-19-2018, 09:19 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

By the way, does anybody else find it absolutely hilarious that Carlos's own video attempting
to defend Billy actually further proves he cheated with MAME? Take a look at the output on
the consumer CRT screen using the Two-Bit converter in Carlos's video:

Attachment 53148

Oops! Perfectly correct girder transition!

03-19-2018, 09:22 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Having said all that, of course, whoever was in charge of the technical side of this deceit then
went and got the rotation 180 degrees wrong, and mistakenly produced 30fps videos.

Well we can only speculate, but my suspicion is Billy didn't have a clue about these finer
details, and rather just paid his tech to set it up. Enabling cheats and setting the refresh rate to
match the arcade indicates technical savvy, but at the same time, the person setting it up
accidentally set the wrong rotation direction. Even if they had gotten that right, there's still the
'finger' among many other issues.

03-19-2018, 09:26 PM
airmaverick
1 Attachment(s)

For interest - Mame version 0.89, Cheats enabled, Refresh rate 60.600, Captured with 'P' &
'Shift P' then F12 in mame.

Anything further is testing my dk skills - and I am already using save states ;)

03-19-2018, 09:42 PM
Asterra
Exhibit A - 000769
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 769/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

To me, this appears to be Team Billy's final lifeline. It is hopefully obvious that it is
impossible for some combination of capture device(s) to magically generate MAME output --
certainly not to the point where every transition looks 100% like MAME and 0% like arcade -
- and that Carlos is going to fail at his ostensible endeavor. But only legitimately. All Carlos
really has to do is finagle a demonstration that appears to show the result he claims to be
seeking. It's his studio, his camera and his Youtube video; he can do whatever he needs to do
to make it look convincing. And then he can tell people "what he did" to make it happen, and
it will be none of his business that other people can't reproduce his "results."

I pretty much expect the matter to settle there. The entire world will know the truth, but
Billy's staunchest supporters will have something to cling to, so they can label the facts "fake
news," and if today's politics are any kind of educator, they'll probably even genuinely believe
it.

03-19-2018, 09:49 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

I fully expect this, and even predicted it many pages ago in this thread. Even the point of "it's
not my problem if you can't replicate it".

03-19-2018, 09:50 PM
foddon

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelnia

I just got home from an amazing trip to Arcade Expo 4.0/Kong Off 6. On the final day
(yesterday/Sunday), there was a Donkey Kong panel discussion that started around 3:30 pm
local time. It initially sounded like it was going to involve a brief discussion of the dispute
then transition to talking about the Kong Off. However the entire discussion was devoted to
Exhibit A - 000770
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 770/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the dispute and ran for, I think, over an hour (I didn't check the time when I left).

The panel was introduced by Walter Day. After Walter spoke briefly about TG and his support
for Billy, Carlos Pineiro gave a brief summary of his findings (much aligned with the video he
posted...which ignores or misinterprets the major points in the dispute). Carlos then brought
up the girder tail/MAME version discrepancy. Following Carlos, TriForce Johnson spoke,
claiming to act as a neutral party. He essentially repeated Carlos' points (even the "fact" that a
frame only lasts 2/3 of a second!). Both Carlos and TriForce took a couple questions from the
audience. Billy was standing in the doorway of the room and took several questions
throughout the discussion. The only question I asked during the discussion was directed to
Billy, and I asked him the date and location of his 1,047,200 game. He said he couldn't
remember the date but that it happened at "Rob's arcade." Several moments later he told the
audience that while he couldn't answer technical questions, he has a great memory and could
answer questions on history. ¯\_(ãƒ„)_/¯ George Riley asked about the board swap video,
which I'll expand upon below, and shortly afterwards the discussion wrapped up. TriForce
recorded the panel, along with at least one other audience member...so I expect there will be
video footage soon.

My two main takeaways from the panel:

It's a shame no one asked them how Billy was apparently the only one EVER to produce the
finger girder on a Donkey Kong arcade machine. And even more amazingly he did it on
multiple different machines!

03-19-2018, 10:32 PM
Asterra

If anyone ever finds the time, I'd love to have a chance to peruse a 30+ minute clip of an older
MAME running DK at 60.6Hz. There's a certain quirk I'm hoping to see in the footage (not
the finger). And anyway, such a thing doesn't yet exist so it would be convenient to be able to
link to it in future discourses.

03-20-2018, 01:33 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by airmaverick

For interest - Mame version 0.89, Cheats enabled, Refresh rate 60.600, Captured with 'P' &
'Shift P' then F12 in mame.

I did the loading of the first frames of each board. The 'finger girder' is now showing up
consistently on multiple boards. Also if these were the settings used then the other boards
Exhibit A - 000771
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 771/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

should load as shown below. I did two more boards than shown in the image below, however
they looked the same.

Anything further is testing my dk skills - and I am already using save states ;)

This is helpful.

What would be great is to have a matching set of original arcade DK direct feed screen grabs
of these exact transitions in the same format.

If someone could pull them from Chris Gleeds direct video recordings or some other direct
video recordings that would be helpful as well.

03-20-2018, 01:57 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

If someone could pull them from Chris Gleeds direct video recordings or some other direct
video recordings that would be helpful as well.

If there's a link to the full video, can someone post it again? I'll get right on those screenshots
if so.

03-20-2018, 02:05 AM
FBX

NVM, I found one on Twitch that is "YesAffinity" that is 970,200. It's direct feed and looks
kosher, so I'm downloading it so I can use VLC to capture perfect frames from it.

03-20-2018, 02:40 AM
airmaverick
6 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This is helpful.

What would be great is to have a matching set of original arcade DK direct feed screen grabs
of these exact transitions in the same format.

If someone could pull them from Chris Gleeds direct video recordings or some other direct
video recordings that would be helpful as well.

So Chris Gleeds direct feed 970k video along side the Mame 0.86 (cheats enabled, 60.600
refresh rate)
The pie stage differences stood out to me as well.

03-20-2018, 02:46 AM
FBX
Exhibit A - 000772
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 772/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by airmaverick

So Chris Gleeds direct feed 970k video along side the Mame 0.86 (cheats enabled, 60.600
refresh rate)
The pie stage differences stood out to me as well.

Your pics of the feed seem to be missing frames. The video on twitch I'm downloading shows
the 4-girder sweep on the very first board. It's just taking a long time to download the feed,
but rest assured, every frame will be intact when I'm finished with it.

03-20-2018, 02:54 AM
airmaverick

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Yeah agreed it would be good to see what you get, they all feel like they all "missed" a frame.
Used the TG uploaded video as source.

03-20-2018, 02:57 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

For a while now, I've felt that a possibly more thorough chronology of frames would start
with the last frame of the "How High Can You Get" screen, and proceed for a few frames
thereafter. The reason I say this is because it seems like the arcade Donkey Kong never fails
to first split this frame roughly in half, whereas no MAME video I've analyzed does the same
in the same exact way.

03-20-2018, 03:05 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by airmaverick

Yeah agreed it would be good to see what you get, they all feel like they all "missed" a frame.
Used the TG uploaded video as source.

I just checked the first board in the same video (Chris Gleeds 970,200) on Twitch, and I found
the missing five-girder frame. Actually, in every 60fps direct feed of DK I've scrutinized, the
frame has been perfectly reliable.

03-20-2018, 03:51 AM
FBX
Exhibit A - 000773
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 773/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Just finished downloading the two hour video. ALL frames are intact and the feed is 1080p at
60fps. I'm now starting the image capture process for each board. Results will be posted asap.

03-20-2018, 04:18 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Just so any lurkers are clear on this. Changing MAME to output the same as dk hardware
Makes the boards load just like billy's do.

03-20-2018, 04:21 AM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Here's a teaser first board pic. Note the incredibly frame accuracy of Chris Gleed's direct
output (please right click on the image and select "view" to see full detail):

Attachment 53166

03-20-2018, 05:50 AM
FBX
7 Attachment(s)

Did all 7 boards. Chris's direct feed never missed a frame! Remember to right click each of
these image boxes and select "view image":

Attachment 53170Attachment 53171Attachment 53172Attachment 53173Attachment

53174Attachment 53175Attachment 53176

Note that board 5 is by itself as I didn't have the equivalent board 5 captures for MAME. Also
note the consistency with which each board is rendered on Chris's direct feed. MAME doesn't
even come close to getting it right, and never once did Chris's direct feed show a girder
'finger'.

03-20-2018, 05:55 AM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 53177
whooo Congratulations where on page 200 of the Dispute of the century

03-20-2018, 08:56 AM
YesAffinity

Some great work here, guys!

Something I've been looking at, which I don't know for sure that it adds anything in the way
of a confirmed "differentiator" between arcade and MAME, but I think it's worth looking
closer at.

If you notice, on the barrel and pie stages, there is a piece of, what appears to be, pie level
girder drawn on the tops of ladders as the stages are starting.

On the barrel stages they appear on top of the ladders that Kong climbs when exiting the
stage. These pieces of girder go away once the NPC's/prizes/hammers appear. On arcade
hardware, it is a 2-frame transition - the girder pieces are present on top of the ladders at the
Exhibit A - 000774
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 774/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

top of the screen, the next frame they are gone and NPC's/prizes/hammers are present. On
MAME it is a 3-frame transition - the girder pieces are present on top of the ladders at the top
of the screen, the next frame they are gone and SOME of the NPC's/prizes/hammers are
present, the 3rd frame completes the drawing of the NPC's/prizes/hammers.

Now, look at the pie stage. The first screen of the board being drawn differs from MAME to
arcade. Look at the upper right ladder on the far right side of the screen. On MAME, it has a
girder piece on top of it. On arcade hardware, the conveyor is already being drawn.

Granted, I’m only looking at 2 samples on the last 2 pages of this post, but it might be worth
looking at more samples from my direct feed videos (and maybe more than just this one video
of my 970,200 run), as well as what can be seen in Billy’s tapes.

03-20-2018, 09:37 AM
WCopeland

The anonymous whistleblower asked that I post this.

https://i.imgur.com/zVNUTwd.png

https://i.imgur.com/vQwEaCN.png

03-20-2018, 11:54 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

The anonymous whistleblower asked that I post this.

I'll do up a new comparison box with it, but I should point out that the stacked kongs screen
he shows at the beginning is actually the previous frame. MAME doesn't even show the 'half'
swipe of the stacked kongs as it skips right past that sequence and into the 'finger' girder
frame. If I were to truly align the frame sequence, I would put the finger girder frame directly
over the half swipe of kongs.

At any rate, I'm going to load up mame myself to do the new comparison box. Give me about
30 mins to get this knocked out.

03-20-2018, 12:48 PM
IAmNerdJock
1 Attachment(s)

I got it today as well.

Attachment 53224

03-20-2018, 12:53 PM
Hotrod6045

Whoops!

Seems like the article forgot it was DKF, not TG, that did the score removal. Did they time
travel for that?
Exhibit A - 000775
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 775/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-20-2018, 12:58 PM
J.C. Harrist
4 Attachment(s)

Here is another difference I have found.

On the rivet screen, when Jumpman clears the last rivet, the girders fall to the bottom. This is
also rendered differently on arcade than on early versions of MAME.

Here is a side by side comparison of Arcade and MAME .118 rendering this sequence at 120
FPS slowed down 100X.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpIKIXmFU5s

As with the transitions, MAME completes the sequence faster than arcade.

The "100" for clearing the rivet shows up sooner and the fireballs and prizes disappear before
they do on arcade. MAME drops all of the girders into a nice square pile all at once , while
arcade leaves a "stair step" pattern and does it in 2 steps and there's a very distinctive pattern
of girder and ladder in between.

Attachment 53219

Notice especially the girder Kong is standing on and that little sliver of ladder in the upper
right.

Here are some stills I took from some of Chris Gleed's various Youtube videos.

Attachment 53221

Attachment 53222

Attachment 53223

I haven't done an extensive amount of MAME testing on this, but it appears that no version of
MAME accurately reproduces this sequence.

03-20-2018, 01:43 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

So I made the whistle blower's comparison box (right click and select "view image" to see full
size):

Attachment 53225

One thing that sticks out is that blue oil can appearing one screen early. While we know this
doesn't happen on real hardware, it's also not happening with our current MAME settings.
Was there an explanation for this? I seem to recall something about frame drawing direction,
and that the blue oil can was getting 'hit' first?

03-20-2018, 01:48 PM
Exhibit A - 000776
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 776/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Hotrod6045

Try different versions of MAME that could have been used around the time of the 1.05m
score with the same parameters. While they might reproduce "the finger" accurately, it's
possible the blue oil can could show up early with different versions.

03-20-2018, 01:48 PM
FBX

Also I should state that I may have mistakenly labeled the 1.05 million images as "Direct
Feed". I don't actually know of those images are.

03-20-2018, 02:02 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

Here is another difference I have found.

On the rivet screen, when Jumpman clears the last rivet, the girders fall to the bottom. This is
also rendered differently on arcade than on early versions of MAME.

As with the transitions, MAME completes the sequence faster than arcade.

Attachment 53219

I haven't done an extensive amount of MAME testing on this, but it appears that no version of
MAME accurately reproduces this sequence.

Confirmed it in MAME 0.85:

Attachment 53226

03-20-2018, 02:27 PM
FBX
2 Attachment(s)

Just realized old versions of MAME do in fact show the blue oil can before Kong, but at
default settings:

Attachment 53229

So in order to perfect nail down the exact replication of Billy's MAME use, we need to figure
out what brings the 'finger' up and the blue oil can showing up early. Or, is is possible the blue
oil can shows up early much later in the game? I'd need board counts on Billy's 1.05 milllon
tape where the oil can shows up early. Can anyone get me this info?
Exhibit A - 000777
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 777/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-20-2018, 02:29 PM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

So I made the whistle blower's comparison box (right click and select "view image" to see full
size):

Attachment 53225

Are these from the video of the play that has the screen flipped incorrectly? It could explain
the barrel being drawn earlier rather than later due to refresh starting from a different side of
the screen. Just a guess.

03-20-2018, 03:50 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

So I made the whistle blower's comparison box (right click and select "view image" to see full
size):

Attachment 53225

Not to belabor an observation that's been made a few times in this thread, but the answer in
this case is that the 1.05 video you have elected to sample from is very obviously not a direct
feed, but rather almost certainly a camera recording of a TV flipped on its side. Therefore you
will unavoidably encounter cases where two consecutive frames have been conjoined into a
single frame, spliced along a line defined by the convergence of the camera's rolling shutter
and the TV's rasterization.

Here is the 1.05M score as an nth-generation recording of the "direct feed" video.

03-20-2018, 04:16 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Not to belabor an observation that's been made a few times in this thread, but the answer in
this case is that the 1.05 video you have elected to sample from is very obviously not a direct
feed, but rather almost certainly a camera recording of a TV flipped on Exhibit
its side. Therefore
A - 000778you
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 778/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

will unavoidably encounter cases where two consecutive frames have been conjoined into a
single frame, spliced along a line defined by the convergence of the camera's rolling shutter
and the TV's rasterization.

Here is the 1.05M score as an nth-generation recording of the "direct feed" video.

In my defense, I didn't 'elect' to sample those frames. They were posted by Wes's whistler
blower. However, it's just as I vaguely remembered like you said: camera recordings of the
screen caused the anomaly. Here are the two frames from the direct feed tape, which shows
the oil can correctly showing up in the final frame:

Attachment 53235

03-20-2018, 04:29 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Rivet completion in Billy's 1.05 million direct feed showing the same instantaneous collapse
transition:

Attachment 53238

03-20-2018, 04:54 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Here is the 1.05M score as an nth-generation recording of the "direct feed" video.

Found a spot in your video link where the 'finger' and the early blue oil can show up in the
same transition:

Attachment 53242

My theories about how these two different MAME anomalies might be happening in the same
transition on direct feed:

1. spliced footage from load-stating, where the new segment wasn't set to 60.6Hz by mistake.

2. As yet unknown parameters Billy was using in MAME.

03-20-2018, 05:54 PM
Robert.F
wow

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.C. Harrist

Here is another difference I have found.

On the rivet screen, when Jumpman clears the last rivet, the girders fall to the bottom. This is
also rendered differently on arcade than on early versions of MAME.
Exhibit A - 000779
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 779/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Here is a side by side comparison of Arcade and MAME .118 rendering this sequence at 120
FPS slowed down 100X.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpIKIXmFU5s

As with the transitions, MAME completes the sequence faster than arcade.

Attachment 53219

Notice especially the girder Kong is standing on and that little sliver of ladder in the upper
right.

Here are some stills I took from some of Chris Gleed's various Youtube videos.

Attachment 53221

Attachment 53222

Attachment 53223

I haven't done an extensive amount of MAME testing on this, but it appears that no version of
MAME accurately reproduces this sequence.

wow

“
We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire... Give us the tools and we will finish
the job.
”
â€•
Winston Churchill

03-20-2018, 06:34 PM
FBX

I gotta take a break from the research. I've spent the last 20 hours with very little sleep in
between collating screencaps and evidence. It's overwhelming how much there is against
Billy now, and I'm suffering burnout running dozens of different versions of MAME and
comparing results. The simple fact of the matter is Billy's tapes are absolutely MAME usage.
They are in fact not even CLOSE to original hardware behavior.

There's already a $1,000 bounty out there for anyone that can get real original hardware to
show the girder 'finger' with full transparency on the process.

The reality is that girder is giving Billy the 'finger'. ;-)

Exhibit A - 000780
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 780/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-20-2018, 08:12 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Found a spot in your video link where the 'finger' and the early blue oil can show up in the
same transition:

This is related to the observation I made in my analysis of every barrel transition. MAME was
occasionally providing frames split vertically, but at unpredictable horizontal locations. This
is why I was hoping someone would post a long recording of MAME at 60.6Hz. My theory is
that the atypical framerate engendered these split frames.

03-20-2018, 09:33 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

It's quite possible. In that deteriorated video you linked to. I found one frame during the rivet
stage that was perfectly slit down the middle of the screen. The left side showed a different
frame than the right side.

03-20-2018, 09:47 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

In that deteriorated video you linked to. I found one frame during the rivet stage that was
perfectly slit down the middle of the screen. The left side showed a different frame than the
right side.

RTM REPLY - queue the theme to "Dragnet" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=d7toJobXzWY

03-20-2018, 10:04 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Exhibit A - 000781
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 781/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Here were all the barrel transitions that exhibited split-frame or similar behavior:

00:00:37 split 75%

00:04:39 split 25%
00:26:45 split 75%
00:52:25 split 3%
01:08:22 split 10%
01:11:22 split 90%
01:32:00 split 35%
01:37:00 split 8%
02:19:50 split 8%
02:30:30 doubled frame
02:37:50 split 85%

Out of 56 barrel transitions, that's a good 20% of them. It feels safe to assume that whatever
MAME is doing to cause this, it is not limiting the effect to barrel transition frames, but a split
frame would be unreasonably hard to detect during static gameplay. Also can't discount the
possibility that it's a 30fps output has some bearing on this.

03-20-2018, 11:35 PM
FBX
2 Attachment(s)

So we're pretty much done here. All that's left is for Billy to pay someone to finagle a girder
finger video and try to pass it off as arcade, but Chris Gleed's video consistently shows real
hardware NEVER draws that finger.

You CANNOT get this:

Attachment 53264

to look like this:

Attachment 53265

On original DK hardware without hacking/faking it.

03-21-2018, 04:10 AM
airmaverick
6 Attachment(s)

My aim was to better understand the CPU and Overclock refresh rates activated in Cheat
mode. I suspect it is a magic combination of both of these options required to recreate Billy's
footage frame by frame. (and at a guess - less to do with what specific MAME version pre
0.96)

On test CPU0 adjusts video and gameplay speed - 1% slowest and 200% fastest (100%
default)
CPU1 slows down and speeds up the sound
Overclock adjust the refresh rate - 50.000 hz to 70.000 hz (60.000 hz default)

I suspect these options are both "emulating" what would happen if I overclocked the original
hardware CPU or adjusted the refresh rate of the original hardware monitor respectively.

Exhibit A - 000782
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 782/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Note I found excerpt from the mamedev faq that reinforces this, I.e. double dragon is
deliberately choppy to to "emulate" the original hardware:
"Double Dragon
Gameplay is choppy at times, but I have enough CPU power?
Although the FPS counter shows 100% speed for these games, they may appear choppy. This
is true to the original — even the original hardware of these games struggled with them and
therefore the choppiness is actually accurate emulation of these games. You may be able to
get rid of it in some cases by using the -cheat parameter, hitting the tilde key and browsing the
on screen menu until you find "CPU overclocking". This will run the emulated CPU faster
which may or may not fix it. It may also cause the emulation to have errors, so don't bug
people if overclocking screws up a game."

I did a few tests (Mame v0.89) but found the most interesting information when setting the
CPU0 to the minimum (1%) and then tested for different refresh rates.
I then took screen grabs for the first board until kong appeared at 50.000 HZ (min), 60.000
HZ (default), 60.600 HZ and finally 70.000HZ. This has resulted in 400 plus images (I will
zip and attach for reference). I have included some key images for easy reference here as well
(right click view image)

I CONCLUDED:
1) Mame loads the "tiles" of the board piece by piece in a very specific order - On the first
board this happens over approx. 100 tile placements
2) The loading of the elements on the first board goes girders, ladders, the four orange kong
barrels, the blue barrel, hammers, kong actually flies in from top of screen, Pauline, then the
timer.
3) The CPU setting will determine what tile placement is shown and how many get skipped
(hard to explain but the images show it best i would say it would start at say tile placement 4
to jump to tile placement 30 for example)
4) It is then the refresh rate that determines if the shown "tile" has any "tearing" or is partially
displayed
5) There should be multiple combinations of these settings that show our main "finger" girder
in the right spot. I.e. the alignment of the tile placement frame with the refresh rate showing
tearing.
6) I suspect therefore there will be a magic combination of CPU/Refresh that will show the
other anomalies such as the blue barrel loading first (as well as the main finger girder)
Although no idea where you would start. This would also explain the different game play
speed noted in the videos.

Note: Also the right to left swipe of the kong on the "how high can you get screen?" does
exist but must not have been shown on any settings tried so far.

I also have a feeling now that it is the hardware emulation of the refresh rate which is
responsible for the "finger/s" and why you will never see it on direct capture or the original
arcade monitor. It is "emulating" a "monitor" and is producing a screen "tearing" effect.

I also agree with FBX that you will not see those 5 girders half shown on the right based on
this test.
Sorry for the lengthy post, but its hard to describe, the images show it all best. Keen for other
interpretations.

03-21-2018, 04:31 AM
Neo Tiger

Exhibit A - 000783
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 783/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

the only thing for billy to do is recreate a 1.062 tape and claim the others are faked, but still
dosnt help him standing behind 2 mame recordings, but i guess we will see. Seems like billy
just decided to fake it to save actually practising for weeks on end in a game he probably
hadn't played really in years and didnt know how to make a decent score for the KOK film
and to guarantee a good score at the events he was paid to play at, behind closed doors!.

03-21-2018, 04:58 AM
rotunda

Yup, case closed on this one. Billy is screwed.

03-21-2018, 05:50 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

You CANNOT get this:

Attachment 53264

to look like this:

Attachment 53265

On original DK hardware without hacking/faking it.

I dont think we have to worry about billy's side faking evidence. Rememer carlos video, he
shows Wes play, which of course looks like arcade, and then straight up lies and says the
video (right on screen at the time) shows the wes's arcade looks like billy. Despite the video
right on Carlos on screen proving Carlos is lying as he's saying it, billy supporters are seeing
it as proof that if billy if cheated then wes cheated too. I see someting similiar coming of the
bounty of the final rebuttle. I see them taking an arcade, having it prove billy guilty, and then
just stating it proves him innocent. When i watched thier stuff, i knew i wasnt a tech and
figured there'd be things i'd need to research to debunk, yet shockingly they didnt even try to
fake evidence. They basically hold up a circle and just claim they're holding up a square.
extremely transparent claims for anyone watching. Whats taking reseach is for me to fully
understand the claims here. I mean you've all shown video and pictures and it sure is
compelling, and the fact billy's side can refute none of it tells me everything here is true, but
i'm trying to 100% understand it all myself. Thanks everyone for the education.

03-21-2018, 05:54 AM
RTM

I honestly feel that it goes way beyond merely submitting the way that he did.

If you think back to ALL the interviews along the way...

-> the way he attempted to strong-arm TG into not accepting Wiebe's score(s)
-> the massive ego and grand-standing at the ACAM 2005 event with the 1.047M
-> how he ran to Lincoln Center with Walter in Aug/04 to announce before 1500 people the
"first 1M score on DK" as Wiebe was about to steal his thunder
Exhibit A - 000784
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 784/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

-> trying to strong-arm TG into not accepting Abdner Ashman's "Ms Pacman" record
-> and everything else across so many years

This is much more than a submission issue. This was a complete multi-decade long
orchestration to cultivate a growing "legacy" which, at least in part, was built upon the
manipulation of TG officials, long-time friends in the hobby and the media...with or without
their knowledge of what he was doing all along the way.

Should TG remove these scores, then the same general policy should be applied towards all
the rest of his scores, starting with "Donkey Kong Junior" which might also be suspect.

What cannot, unfortunately be "undone"...

-> his "Gamer of the Century" mantle which was bestowed upon him (with no other
contenders, mind you) by a 3rd party
-> his appearance on more than 20 trading cards as published by Walter Day
-> media recognition for the "First Perfect Pacman", which is in and of itself a whole different
matter

Makes me wonder whether his long-time permission to utilize the "Pacman" image as he said
he was given the authority for by the president of either NAMCO or some other gaming
company in control of the rights, might be rescinded in light of such a decision should it be
formally issued by TG.

I am personally very disappointed seeing how I invested the time to thoroughly annotate and
acknowledge his much earlier 1.014M score in 2004 AND how, based on his pressure
towards TG, delayed the organization from acknowledging Steve Wiebe's 1.006M
submission.

Should TG make such a decision I also think that a certain other person with the initials
"WD" needs to issue a statement being that he was Billy's biggest promoter for the better part
of 35 years. Remember the quote about the first perfect Pacman..."It's not just that someone
got a perfect score on Pacman, it's that Billy Mitchell got a perfect score on Pacman". Walter
has some 'splaining to do.

As for Billy, you can almost envision the barrage of "damage control" tactics to come.

03-21-2018, 06:26 AM
The Evener

To add to this point, what I find particularly bad form is that Steve Wiebe was the reigning
DK Junior record holder at the first IVGHOF in 2010 - an active record holder at the time of
his induction. Billy was essentially being inducted for past achievements as he wasn't a
current record holder for any title. For Billy to scoop that plus Hank's thunder as DK record
holder while lording the importance of live arcade play during his presentation (both Steve's
and Hank's records were achieved at home) gives a whole new meaning to the word hubris.

Ultimately, you know when Team Billy is rallying around the finger girder as "evidence" of
arcade play that the gig is up.

03-21-2018, 08:05 AM
q43

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000785
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 785/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by xelnia

... there was a Donkey Kong panel

Very grateful to Triforce for releasing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H7OWRdywQ4

03-21-2018, 08:22 AM
q43

Billy's confession that the board swap was fake starts around the 51 minute mark in case
anyone wants to skip the beginning.

https://youtu.be/4H7OWRdywQ4?t=3071

03-21-2018, 08:25 AM
The Evener

George's question about the staged/fake board swap occurs around 51:13 for those who want
to focus on that.

03-21-2018, 09:25 AM
Tessman

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

George's question about the staged/fake board swap occurs around 51:13 for those who want
to focus on that.

At 52:00, Billy asserts that the guy who did the board swap staged it, "For his Youtube
Channel".

My knowledge of the time line of all of this is a little shaky, so please correct me if I'm
wrong, but wasn't this event in 2004 or 2005? Youtube didn't even exist until mid 2005.

03-21-2018, 09:39 AM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

My knowledge of the time line of all of this is a little shaky, so please correct me if I'm
wrong, but wasn't this event in 2004 or 2005? Youtube didn't even exist until mid 2005.

The Boomer video in question supposedly took place July 31st 2010, 1 week before the Big
Band in Ottumwa.

03-21-2018, 09:41 AM
q43

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000786
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 786/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by q43

Big Band

Should read: Big bang, though the Big band probably would have been more fun.

03-21-2018, 09:51 AM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

It's damage control at this stage. These excuses are actually funny at this point.

Attachment 53281

03-21-2018, 09:59 AM
Hotrod6045

I consider Steve Wiebe the first person to legitimately break the 1 million mark, even if there
were issues over a double board cabinet and the joystick. Unlike Billy, Steve actually didn't
play it on MAME. There's some vindication due when this all said and done.

The confession that "It was for YouTube!" doesn't exactly fly anymore. At this point, any sort
of admission it was staged is enough to sink everyone involved. However, I'm think a little bit
of betrayal of partners took place after that confession because, essentially, someone was
thrown under the bus that wasn't Billy. Whether Robert Childs decides to break out of Team
Billy's group and tell the truth is up to him. In any event, Billy might as well prepare from a
bigger fall from grace than what Todd suffered.

He has less to lose now if he simply admitted it was MAME. If he doesn't and he fights, it'll
be a lot worse.

03-21-2018, 10:01 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

Billy's confession that the board swap was fake starts around the 51 minute mark in case
anyone wants to skip the beginning.

https://youtu.be/4H7OWRdywQ4?t=3071

gonna disagree with the word "confess" billy pretends he had nothing to do with it and that its
all robert childs fault.

The video shows BOTH of them being invovled. Billy very proud with his typical smug look,
he's part of the video. Now that he realizes what a bad job they did and how everyone knows
its fake, he still doesnt confess, but rather calls his pal an "idiot" and completley blames him
while acting as if he wasnt even in the video.

To all the billy fans standing by him cause he's such a great guy, pay attention yet again. This
is what you great humanitarian ambassador to gaming does when even he finally realizes
noone is falling for it. He finds someone to blame (spoiler just like noone fell for the
baordswap being real noone is falling for billy having nothing to do with it when he's right on
camera bieng invovled with it). So, its only a matter of time until billy realizes just how
compelling the mame proof is and everyone realizes it mame. When that happens, when billy
Exhibit A - 000787
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 787/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

knows he cant deny the mame any more than the boardswap which one of his loyal friends
will he next call an "idiot" and blame it all on?

Shameful, not just continuing to deny responsibilyty and being dishonest, not just blaming
someone else, not just blaming a friend, but going so far as to throw in insults on top calling
his accomplice an "idiot". If he did this to childs how long before he does it to his other
supporters as well? you've been warned about just how nice your friend is, dont be surprised
when he puts the dagger in your back next

03-21-2018, 10:19 AM
Tessman

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

The Boomer video in question supposedly took place July 31st 2010, 1 week before the Big
Band in Ottumwa.

Fair enough. At least that statement stands up to even a casual amount of scrutiny. That's gotta
be a first.

03-21-2018, 10:25 AM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

gonna disagree with the word "confess"

con·fess

kÉ™nËˆfes

verb

a admit or acknowledge something reluctantly, typically because one feels slightly ashamed
or embarrassed.

"You're right it's a headache and you're right I'm sorry and if it caused hardship you're right
and if I could go back in time I would change that." - Billy Mitchell

His answer very much seemed like a confession to me.

03-21-2018, 10:53 AM
The Evener

I'm glad we have Billy on the record - for 18 years he led the world to believe that the video
was a real-time testimonial to live arcade play - a swap that led directly to his record DK
Junior run. I heard him claim in the video that he wasn't going to lie about it, as if this was the
very first time people called him out on it and the first opportunity he had to address it.
Exhibit A - 000788
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 788/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The claim that Robert wanted the staged video for his personal YouTube channel is even more
incredulous. Robert wanted to populate his channel with completely fabricated "souvenirs" of
his visit to Boomers? Those videos were dropped on the day of Billy's Big Bang
announcement in a coordinated fashion and it was posted on TG as well, no doubt to head off
a sceptical reception from the gaming community.

Perhaps most depressing of all was the suggestion that this kind of fakery "doesn't matter"
because the score was adjudicated "live."

03-21-2018, 11:06 AM
d3scride

Omnigamer has also released a video pertaining to the case against Billy Mitchell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEKYlZbaQPE

03-21-2018, 11:13 AM
Snowflake

i would encourage yes for peole to hear it and not just our summaries. He goes on and on
what an idiot robert childs is, even bringing up robert child's allegedly putting up billy's fixit
felix on ebay with no intent of selling just for publcity and explains that just what robert does
-- as if billy wasnt a part of it. its all "robert did this robert did that idiot knucklehead" and
then he concludes apologizing for what robert did. i didnt see him calling himself an idiot or
admitting to his role in it. it was all robert's fault, but he's really sorry robert childs made him
look bad.

03-21-2018, 11:16 AM
YesAffinity

^There's no new information there, but also not anything that struck me as being incorrect. It's
a good summary for anyone jumping in late in the game, or that hasn't been through this
entire thread, in case you might have missed some of the more pertinent details. I'm also
hoping that anyone that had the wool pulled over their eyes by Carlos' video and the other
video that basically presented the same illogical conclusions a couple days later, will watch
Omnigamer's video and at least get a basic understanding about what the dispute is truly
about.

03-21-2018, 11:16 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

- for 18 years

Sorry, 8 years actually - dodged one there, wondering where I misplaced a decade of time.

03-21-2018, 11:17 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Exhibit A - 000789
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 789/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Referring to post #2036.

03-21-2018, 11:57 AM
rotunda

Randomly got recommended this video... It struck me for a number of reasons.

1, You can really see the amount of scrutiny Steve Wiebe went up against whereas Billy's
records got accepted no questions asked. I also find it interesting how they are trying to
debunk Steve's video as some of his jumps are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo

https://youtu.be/IdTjaF1eEqo?t=1m42s

Not sure who's saying that but it seems like the people siding with Billy from the KoK.
Apparently the people in the room are: Brian Kuh, Dwayne Richards, Robert Mruczek, Todd
Rogers.

It doesn't really add evidence but I think it's interesting that these people certainly have
knowledge of MAME in 2007 and speak about it openly stating they could get 1 million
points with this method. They also try to debunk Steve's score for these reasons so it was
clearly known about even back then.

Gotta feel for Steve really, the KoK really was more accurate then I thought. He truly got
shafted.

03-21-2018, 11:59 AM
rotunda

That was supposed to say

I also find it interesting how they are trying to debunk Steve's video as some of his jumps are
"BS" and "emulated"

TG site screwed up some how.

03-21-2018, 12:04 PM
GibGirl
1 Attachment(s)
Exhibit A - 000790
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 790/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Randomly got recommended this video... It struck me for a number of reasons.

BTW, I checked out the transition at the very beginning of this video...

Attachment 53284

Five girders.

03-21-2018, 12:12 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibGirl

BTW, I checked out the transition at the very beginning of this video...

Attachment 53284

Five girders.

Nice work! I never thought to do that.

I must stress this is STEVE WIEBE's tape they are discussing not Billy's but it's worth noting
that Steve's clearly shows up like arcade and they are filming it just as they did when Billy
made the announcement with the 2 TV's.

03-21-2018, 12:14 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

That was supposed to say

I also find it interesting how they are trying to debunk Steve's video as some of his jumps are
"BS" and "emulated"

TG site screwed up some how.

That sounds a lot like Briah Kuh saying that he could save state a MAME game to a million
points. he was billy's prodigy back in the day. This is completely insane to listen to.

03-21-2018, 12:18 PM
Neo Tiger

billy's role in KOK really exposed him as a nasty minded person towards Steve(or any
challenger) with personal harassment and making Steve jump through as many hoops as
possible, many they hoped he wouldn't do, with the culmination of a fake video playing at the
same time he travelled across the country to prove himself at funspot to play on the possessed
machine because billy never managed a decent performance on it, i wonder why.. just a
shame really to see this all happening, very childish behaviour.
Exhibit A - 000791
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 791/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

but without billy we may not be here all talking about it on TG and being such a big issue for
those interested at least.

03-21-2018, 12:25 PM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

That sounds a lot like Briah Kuh saying that he could save state a MAME game to a million
points.

I believe the person saying this is this guy.

Attachment 53285

I don't know his name but i recognise his voice from the KoK. Pretty sure it's him. The guy
who was asked to check out Steve's DK machine but Brian went instead. So clearly a close
friend of Billy's.

03-21-2018, 12:26 PM
d3scride

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

I believe the person saying this is this guy.

[/FONT][/COLOR]Attachment 53285

I don't know his name but i recognise his voice from the KoK. Pretty sure it's him. The guy
who was asked to check out Steve's DK machine but Brian went instead. So clearly a close
friend of Billy's.

That's Dwayne Richard.

03-21-2018, 12:27 PM
Hotrod6045

I think a lot more people than Billy could be facing a TG ban by the end of this score dispute
and any other scores involved.

03-21-2018, 12:29 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

I believe the person saying this is this guy.

[/FONT][/COLOR]Attachment 53285

I don't know his name but i recognise his voice from the KoK. Pretty sure it's him. The guy
Exhibit A - 000792
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 792/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

who was asked to check out Steve's DK machine but Brian went instead. So clearly a close
friend of Billy's.

I dunno, it sounds exactly like Brian Kuh to me.

03-21-2018, 12:29 PM
GibGirl

Quote:

Originally Posted by d3scride

That's Dwayne Richard.

Holy crap, just realized that's the same dude challenging in Man Vs. Snake...

03-21-2018, 12:30 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

I believe the person saying this is this guy.

[/FONT][/COLOR]Attachment 53285

I don't know his name but i recognise his voice from the KoK. Pretty sure it's him. The guy
who was asked to check out Steve's DK machine but Brian went instead. So clearly a close
friend of Billy's.

Nevermind that isn't brian saying that, he speaks just before.

03-21-2018, 12:32 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I dunno, it sounds exactly like Brian Kuh to me.

At 1:42 yeah that's Brian but further on when said person says about the MAME stuff that's
not Brian I'm 99% sure.

03-21-2018, 12:38 PM
Welp

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Randomly got recommended this video... It struck me for a number of reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo
Exhibit A - 000793
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 793/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://youtu.be/IdTjaF1eEqo?t=1m42s

Not sure who's saying that but it seems like the people siding with Billy from the KoK.
Apparently the people in the room are: Brian Kuh, Dwayne Richards, Robert Mruczek, Todd
Rogers.

Gotta feel for Steve really, the KoK really was more accurate then I thought. He truly got
shafted.

Yeah, basically any claim that TG wasn't biased against Wiebe is pretty much completely
torpedoed by this video. There was nothing wrong with his performance at all in the video, it
was just a lot of people unfamiliar with DK trying to poke holes in a valid score.

03-21-2018, 01:19 PM
rotunda

https://youtu.be/IdTjaF1eEqo?t=5m25s

The mention of MAME playback and sounds modified from the game from the same person I
discussed earlier.

They clearly know the issues regarding the sound on MAME... and Billy's submissions
ironically has no sound.

03-21-2018, 01:20 PM
rotunda

TG site fail again

skip to 5:22 on the above video for the part I'm talking about.

03-21-2018, 01:46 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

2, I find this part interesting at 1:42 ... The people around billy certainly have some in depth
knowledge of MAME and getting a million points. The person also states "I told I told Walter,
I told Bill" then backtracks saying he doesn't remember who he told but explains his point. I
find it so hard to believe Billy has zero knowledge of this stuff when his close allies know a
lot about it even back in 2007.
Exhibit A - 000794
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 794/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://youtu.be/IdTjaF1eEqo?t=1m42s

Not sure who's saying that but it seems like the people siding with Billy from the KoK.
Apparently the people in the room are: Brian Kuh, Dwayne Richards, Robert Mruczek, Todd
Rogers.

RTM REPLY - I can contribute on this point. This viewing, and the taping of it...I do believe
that it took place in my own cabin (cottage 5) at Sun Valley that year.

Dwayne and Brian pretty much lead the skepticism. A few of us had our own concerns, while
some did not see issues at all. I personally thought I saw on at least one occasion what to me
appeared to be a jump over some barrels where Steve's "Mario" sprite landed pretty deep into
the end-barrel.

Additionally, at this viewing whether this aspect was taped or not, we discussed the
possibility of whether using an 8-way joystick in a 4-way harness could still allow a gamer to
manipulate the barrels while climbing/descending ladders. At this point in time no one truly
knew.

No definitive decision was made during the viewing, in fact I can't even be sure who, of those
watching that tape, was still a recognized TG referee at that time. It was post-Dec/06 and I
know for a fact that I was no longer a TG staffer, but I am unsure about everyone else in the
room. I am 99% certain that there was a fair-sized crowd in the range of 10-20 people
watching this tape. I am pretty sure that Greg Erway was present, Todd's GF "Morningdove",
possibly (not sure) Martin Bedard and/or Kelly Flewin, maybe one or more of the Crams, and
unsure who else...it's been awhile.

03-21-2018, 01:57 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

RTM REPLY - you are quite correct here in that those in attendance, lead by Dwayne and
Kuh, were ascertaining whether there was cause for concern. I was no longer a TG staffer at
the time but my own concerns were discussed during this showing, those being the impact of
an 8-way joystick in a 4-way harness, and some questionable jumps ended in what appeared
to be a sprite collision that was not recognized.

Dwayne, if I remember correctly, was hellbent on two key elements...speed and

aggressiveness of the fireballs. Kuh had other concerns on top of that.
Exhibit A - 000795
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 795/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

To be perfectly honest, it was never by this point in time crystal clear as to whether Steve's
board(s) sent to him by Roy were in any way tampered with. The specter of that possibility
always was front and center.

In retrospect the worst thing that happened of all was the Kuh visit to Steve...had that NOT
taken place history would have been very, very different as a lot of good faith was placed in
the purported expertise of Bill, Chris and Steve based on what was witnessed and seen of both
the boardset(s) and the recorded performance.

The sad irony of the situation, should TG decide against Bill, is this...
-> Billy (and Chris) strong-armed TG into not accepting Steve's scores based on their
concerns over possible illegitimate boardsets
-> Billy himself is now under scrutiny for whether he used a boardset at all, instead using
MAME

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, as the expression goes...again, if the decision is
unfavourable to him.

03-21-2018, 02:01 PM
redelf

So in the video from TriForce involving the dispute panel at the Kong Off. Billy a few times
talks about someone that spent a 100k to make a movie about the king of kong and other
things related to it. I'm guessing that it is Dwayne Richard he is talking about. He also
mentions someone getting into his emails and they tracked the IP address from where they
were, he stated in two countries, and then a few names that are related to the Perfect Pac Man
video Dwayne made. Somewhere I remember something about Dwayne wanting to make
some Mame videos and have them claimed as arcade. I'm just putting together what I've heard
from the video and other things that I have read.

The one question I now have is, has Billy claimed that the videos are of him playing or not. If
he states that they are not him playing then things would get really interesting. What if those
tapes were made from mame and then put on youtube stating they were of Billy's game play
and they really aren't?

I haven't followed this thread close enough to know if this has been addressed or not.

03-21-2018, 02:11 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by redelf

The one question I now have is, has Billy claimed that the videos are of him playing or not. If
Exhibit A - 000796
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 796/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

he states that they are not him playing then things would get really interesting. What if those
tapes were made from mame and then put on youtube stating they were of Billy's game play
and they really aren't?

I haven't followed this thread close enough to know if this has been addressed or not.

Billy is standing in front of two tvs showing MAME rendered donkey kong. He was
announcing his new world records. He absolutely cheated and can not deny it unless someone
somehow switched the tapes out between billy and the VCR.

03-21-2018, 02:35 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redelf

RTM REPLY - specifically with respect to the 1.047M tape, the footage shown at the cabin
in 2007 is identical to what was witnessed back in 2005. If Billy claims this performance was
faked that would be a HUGE "Hail Mary" claim on his part...and a false one at that.

Can't speak to the other two performances (1.050M & 1.062M) as I never saw those.

03-21-2018, 02:42 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Can't speak to the other two performances (1.050M & 1.062M) as I never saw those.

And since the 1.047 million also has the MAME girder finger among other distinct anomalies
specific to MAME, his goose is cooked.

03-21-2018, 03:09 PM
FBX

Attachment 53284

All that scrutiny in Steve's video, and yet it passes the the most basic of real hardware test
screens!

Steve was absolutely shafted in all of this. I wonder what his thoughts are about the evidence
against Billy? Assuming what we all know and expect that Billy will be officially banned
from TG, will Steve make a public statement?
Exhibit A - 000797
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 797/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

One things is for sure, Steve is owed an engraved apology by a lot of people that will never
deliver it.

03-21-2018, 03:12 PM
q43

I thought it was quite amusing that Youtube suggested I watch an old (right before the
dispute) video in which Billy admits to submitting falsified scores for records in the past with
others.

https://youtu.be/FhbmAjNe6C0?t=451

03-21-2018, 03:13 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I've been talking to Walter several times now over this. He started off in complete denial, and
after I showed him the latest pic evidence we gathered, he was reduced just being evasively
obtuse with "well this is certainly a lot of drama!"

03-21-2018, 03:36 PM
Snowflake

Funny you would ask because at first yes he denied it was his. His team was too lazy to check
out the details and didn’t know of the video of him standing in front of the tapes. Only
knowing about the YouTube videos they went with the Dwayne doctored the tapes lie they’re
not mine. After that video proved him lying the story was changed to Robert child’s can
explain it. After Roberts story was debunked billy publicly called him an idiot and
knucklehead and is still standing by the lies Carlos put out. Once they realize Carlos lies have
been debunked I’m sure they’ll change their story again

03-21-2018, 03:37 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

That sounds a lot like Briah Kuh saying that he could save state a MAME game to a million
points. he was billy's prodigy back in the day. This is completely insane to listen to.

Good time to interject my personal, completely irrelevant theory that Brian Kuh is the person
who actually performed each of Billy Mitchell's >1M MAME runs in their entirety, with the
only input from Billy being possibly the snarky way each score was finalized. I simply cannot
see Billy having the patience for it, nor can I envision him coming up with the idea himself.

03-21-2018, 03:58 PM
Exhibit A - 000798
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 798/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Mitch Mitchell
Footage from SIOTS

Quote:

Originally Posted by redelf

I haven't followed this thread close enough to know if this has been addressed or not.

Billy setup his world record game footage from Boomer's of DK and DKJR and Steve
Sander's spoke and then Billy himself did a talk while the game footage played in front of
him, each game shows MAME footage. It has nothing to do with Youtube footage. It was
recorded by Mike from Settle It On The Screen, unless im mistaken he even showed the raw
file on his computer frame by frame earlier in this thread.

03-21-2018, 04:01 PM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

Very grateful to Triforce for releasing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H7OWRdywQ4

Who`s Carlos ? This guy comes out of know where, and the first words out of his mouth is he
look at the form on the mame billy dispute , yet dose not help us in anyway by naming these
forms,,, he`s in the business of proving billy instants! not helping others find the source if the
information that disputing billy score, He more or less just shrug it off as being frivolous and
not of any real imprints to what he got to say ,,,, dumb nothing but a bunch of triple BBB:
Bullcrap Baffles Brains :)

03-21-2018, 04:40 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.F

Who`s Carlos ? This guy comes out of know where(sic) Exhibit A - 000799
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 799/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM REPLY - just as when a legal team chooses an "expert" that bolsters their side of the
case, I am guessing that Billy somehow found an engineer who would be favourable to his
cause.

Does anyone have an unofficial headcount of how many people Billy has thrown under the
proverbial bus since this discussion started ? Dwayne is on top by far, and Robert Childs
comes in a close second, but I am reasonably sure that there either is more right now or will
be by the time this comes to a conclusion.

03-21-2018, 05:00 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - just as when a legal team chooses an "expert" that bolsters their side of the
case, I am guessing that Billy somehow found an engineer who would be favourable to his
cause.

on his YouTube video this “engineer” was called out as a local arcade tech however it was
true sega cut the checks fir the arcade. Kind of like a janitor teaching the new janitor at
Harvard the ropes and then telling people he taught at Harvard. Technically true but heavily
misleading. When Carlos was called out for this he didn’t deny it but rather just explained he
didn’t have time earlier to clarify the details. Also considering he multiple times insisted 60
FPS machines have frames that last 2/3 of a second I question just how technical he is

03-21-2018, 05:32 PM
The Evener

A cross-post of potential interest for those who don't frequent the DK Forum site: Sock
Master has posted the results of a small experiment he conducted on what "it might look like
if we were to change timing parameters on DK hardware to see if that could possibly make
DK frames look like MAME frames."

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...34537#msg34537

03-21-2018, 05:53 PM
awesome

Robert,
The only time I viewed a DK video in the cabins at Sun Valey was on Thursday evening of
the event in 2005, the year of, and day before Steve attended the tournament. I personally
picked the video tape up from the airport and brought it to ACAM that day and handed off to
Brian. I was not told what it was only that it was for entertainment purposes only, and not for
submission. Robert Griffin (aka Robert Bonney) was with me as I picked him up at the airport
and Bill had asked him to get it first when he landed, but I ended up actually picking up and
delivering the tape. Doris delivered first tape on Tuesday which was the wrong tape and had
Exhibit A - 000800
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 800/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

wrestling on it. KOK commentary mode confirms that I delivered the tape, but Doris was a
better story and I didn't sign a KOK release. Again, this was before Steve even arrived on
Friday. 1/3 of tape was shown. Friday after ACAM closed, the second third was shown, Steve
already had his kill screen, and I elected to not participate in the viewing that evening.

i was howeve at some point sent Steves video for analysis on the 4-way vs. 8-way joystick
issue. It was very obvious there was an advantage gained with an 8-way. The were
discussions that it should be banned, but until that point that issue was unknown. I don't
remember ever viewing a Steve tape except for here at home, and never in a group.

I do have a 1.006M and something like a 954k Steve recording as well. I do not have a Bill
1.06M likely because I refused to sign the Pete B. Generated TG NDA and left my role as
technical advisor and member of the rules committee by the time the 1.06M was done.

Also, reading some of this thread, and I have yet to read it all yet, there seems to be some
possible miss-information on Bills recordings. I was sent the 1.05M score for review and it
came on DVD not tape. There is a lot of discussions about recording then putting it on tape.
As far as I know, it was likely recorded to a computer, then burned directly onto DVD. I've
always assumed that, but never directly told that. I also have the 1.047M Bill tape, as a file on
my computer. I don't know where I received that from. I know that score was the one I picked
up at the airport on tape, but during playback at ACAM there was a fault in the playback at 1
million rollover, that caused concern, that was deemed to be from the transfer to the tape
being played. It was never said what the source was, only that Bill had the master, and a new
copy was made and sent in. All of this could mean Bill recorded directly to the computer
program Carlos claims, stored on hard drive on the computer, burned to DVD for submission,
and on occasion put on a VHS copy for those without DVD play capabilities at the time (such
as ACAM 2005). According to the Carlos video, the game board puts out the whole image
right away, but raster screen draw scanning can cause some parts of screen to appear before
others depending on where the scan is. Wouldn't a direct feed, to a computer, be stored in as
pure of form as possible? So a recording to a DVD would avoid the raster scan draw issue,
until it was played back on a TV. Of course if you are playing frame by frame, and pausing,
would it not yield a full screen draw of what the hardware put out at the moment of the
frame? This is just a question i have in my mind I'm curious about. What I would like to have
seen in the Carlos video was a direct feed to the computer, save a sample, then play that back
frame by frame and compared to MAME. The direct feed to the TV next to real arcade
machine showed an interesting effect, but the real issue was not fully shown I believe.

03-21-2018, 06:12 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...34537#msg34537

Jace should copy that information in his case file. It clearly shows that even if you HACK the
arcade hardware's timing, you STILL cannot get it to look like the MAME artifacts in Billy's
tapes.

Exhibit A - 000801
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 801/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-21-2018, 06:28 PM
gstrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Perhaps most depressing of all was the suggestion that this kind of fakery "doesn't matter"
because the score was adjudicated "live."

For some historical context, the 3 Boomers videos were uploaded to YouTube by his friend
Robert Childs on 8/7/2010, which was the same day the scores were unveiled during the
International Video Game Hall of Fame induction of Billy Mitchell. Links to the videos are
provided in the first two posts on this dispute thread:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post916769
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post916770

At the panel last weekend at the Kong Off 6 in Banning, CA, Billy Mitchell acknowledged
Robert Childs staged the fake videos that Billy participated in on the day he achieved his DK
and DK Jr scores. A video of the panel and admission by Billy was posted recently on this
dispute thread.

In addition to making and posting the faked videos Robert Childs was also responsible for the
direct video feed used for the games themselves. The games were also witnessed live by now
banned TG referee Todd Rogers and accepted based on his testimony.

The following TG forum thread from the time of the score mentions the Boomers videos and
gives additional context around the unveiling of the scores. It makes very interesting reading
in light of current events: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...-the-DK-record

Of particular note, astute TG member LMDAVE (himself a 1.1M DK player) seems to have
been immediately suspicious of the Boomers videos, which showed zero gameplay and had
odd behavior, and the use of a direct feed video card which would have changed the arcade
hardware being used at a time when DK arcade hardware requirements were extremely strict
about not changing anything. However LMDAVE's concerns were dismissed out of hand by
TG referee Patrick Scott Patterson who vigorously defended the scores and wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Scott Patterson

This is an amazing feat that deserves all the props it gets, and went through a great deal of
verification on our end involving many referees, not only including the two who saw it live
but also myself, David and several more.

There is also a post on the thread by Billy Mitchell's good friend Chris Arya that "On Dk, he
got 1,062,### at the start of 21-1 with 2 men left".

That pace, if he hadn't intentionally quit on Level 21-1 and played to the kill screen, would
have been well over 1.12M, with additional points available for the deaths. So lets say at least
Exhibit A - 000802
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 802/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

1,130,000.

03-21-2018, 06:43 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstrain

PSP has since expressed shame in himself for feeling compelled to protect Billy. He certainly
does not see Billy in a good light now, and won't hesitate to clarify everything that happened
from his own experiences with TG and Billy.

03-21-2018, 06:58 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by awesome

RTM will have to weigh in on his verification of the 1.047 score in January 2006 (I believe),
I'm fairly certain it was based on a VHS recording. In a video recording by Robert Childs at
Boomer's arcade on 31 July 2010, Billy indicated his 1.062 score was recorded onto tape, and
Robert Childs momentarily pans his camera to a white plastic bag that the viewer is told
contains the tapes. As well, Robert Childs, Billy's on-site technician for the Boomer's scores,
explained in a post that the direct feed for the 1.062 score went from the DK arcade machine
straight to VCR. It was only recently that Carlos introduced the laptop direct capture, which
has confused matters in light of Robert's earlier video and his technical explanation of the
direct capture process. And last weekend, in testimony recorded at Kong Off 6, Billy once
again referenced high score recordings in TG custody on tape, and how "the missing tapes"
would vindicate him, although TG reassumed custody of the tapes related to Billy's 1.04 and
1.05 scores as part of this dispute review.

https://youtu.be/4H7OWRdywQ4?t=34m8s

Exhibit A - 000803
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 803/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy Mitchell: "It's interesting that none of the original tapes, none of them can be found,
none of them - yet people who are the keepers of tapes, there's over a thousand tapes in one
place, okay, there's several hundred in another place, and there's a few dozen in another one,
three that I know - one of them, two of them actually, say that people have come and
rummaged through the tapes, and now nobody can find the tapes. If you found the original
tapes then there wouldn't be any questions. So my answer to your question is - what do you
want me to tell you? They don't have the tapes. The tapes weren't made as a method of
verification - that's what TG officials were there for. This wasn't at a time when everybody
streamed on Twitch and all that stuff, it wasn't, or I would have had it set up that way."

03-21-2018, 07:11 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

interesting, so another billy allie that billy now craps all over. The bodies billy leaves behind
of former friends are beginning to pile up.

03-21-2018, 07:28 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

So in other words, he's pulling a Jedi mind trick: "These aren't the tapes you're looking for".
He would have you believe that these 1.047 and 1.05 million score tapes were never his
gameplay to begin with. That's his defense... Sounds to me like he knows the evidence is now
overwhelming on the MAME artifacts in the tapes, and the only way out now is to simply
deny they are his gameplay. That's a pretty neat trick to have scores attributed to your name,
and then turn around years later and act like you've been the victim of an elaborate setup that
took YEARS to come to light. How can anyone honestly defend this guy any more?

03-21-2018, 07:46 PM
The Evener

Billy's defence has always lacked focus, and has avoided a direct engagement with the
evidence. One would have to go back a few dozen pages, but I believe he and his supporters
have used, in more or less chronological order, the following strategies
Exhibit A - 000804
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 804/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

-BM: they are not my tapes, Dwayne Richards is to blame

-BM: the tapes cited by Jeremy (including the Big Bang announcement tapes playing on the
table) are definitely MAME, the original tapes will vindicate me
-RC: God knows what happens to arcade game play transitions when you direct capture it and
record it with 1970s VCR technology
-BM: the tapes do NOT show MAME, I never played MAME
-CP: (looking straight at the 1.047 tape with a finger girder) - this is obviously arcade, you
can tell because the image is of a poor quality
-CP: (at Kong Off 6): Billy's tape is arcade, it only shows a couple of finger girders over 2
hours of play
-BM: the original tapes will exonerate me

I appreciate that Billy would prefer that the Big Bang recordings remain "off limits" in view
of his argument that this Boomer scores were verified by TG referees, and therefore tapes
weren't made as a method of verification. Inconveniently for Billy, however, they can serve as
a method of incrimination.

03-21-2018, 07:53 PM
RTM

Thanks, Greg...I thought I recollected you as being part of the group in my cabin when
Dwayne and Brian presented their "analysis" to us, my mistake. There were a lot of people
present, I had for some reason thought I recollected you as being present for that one.

As for my chiming in on the 1.047M tape. This was well documented. A tape originally was
presented for viewing at ACAM 2005 but Bill initially sent the wrong tape. A day later,
another tape arrived and that one was the 1.047M. It was clear from watching it at two points,
one in the mid-high 600K range and most definitely at the 1M roll-over that it was a copy.
Bill confirmed that to Walter and I ended up getting the original months later way past that
event...it was shipped to my home. I never received a DVD of that performance.

03-21-2018, 07:55 PM
RTM

I should add (to my last reply)...by "well documented" I mean recapped multiple times on this
forum and on others.

03-21-2018, 08:47 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

-CP: (looking straight at the 1.047 tape with a finger girder) - this is obviously arcade, you
can tell because the image is of a poor quality
-CP: (at Kong Off 6): Billy's tape is arcade, it only shows a couple of finger girders over 2
hours of play

Which shows Carlos is either an idiot or paid by Billy. The arcade hardware NEVER shows a
finger girder like seen in Billy's tapes.

03-21-2018, 09:06 PM
maxim_recoil
Exhibit A - 000805
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 805/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

Very grateful to Triforce for releasing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H7OWRdywQ4

I commented on that YouTube video; I'll repeat it here:

This Carlos fellow doesn't know what he's talking about. First of all, his main argument about
the girder tail not being present in pre-v.117 versions of MAME has already been
conclusively debunked. It is present in versions dating back to at least v.56 (2001) when the
refresh rate is set to match the arcade refresh rate (60.6 Hz) or setting CPU0 to 99%. If
someone is going to try to pass off MAME gameplay as arcade gameplay, it makes sense that
they would set the refresh rate in MAME to 60.6 Hz in order to match the arcade refresh rate,
and this will produce the "girder tail" in those old versions of MAME, just as we see in Billy
Mitchell's tapes.

Second, his ramblings about MAME being too "clean", and since Mitchell's tapes aren't clean,
it can't be MAME = pure ignorance. He confirmed his ignorance when he said that MAME
can't be used with that $200 Two-Bits converter because MAME is run on a PC and the
converter doesn't have a VGA input. This guy is blissfully unaware that there are multiple
methods of making a PC output a ~15 kHz RGB video signal exactly like the arcade hardware
does, which would allow it to be used with a standard arcade monitor or with that $200 RGB
to NTSC converter that he referred to several times. Also, you can simply run MAME on a
PC that has a "TV out" video card (a lot of laptops had those from the factory, in the form of a
composite [RCA] or S-video jack) and connect it directly to a VCR for recording, eliminating
the need for the RGB to NTSC converter, because "TV out" is already NTSC. And NTSC is
always the same [relatively] crappy quality regardless of how clean the original source was.

MAME is no "cleaner" than the arcade hardware is; they both start out as pure digital data,
which is as clean as you can possibly get. The difference is that MAME is normally output via
VGA, DVI, or HDMI to a modern high-resolution PC monitor and arcade hardware is
normally output via ~15 kHz RGB to a standard resolution arcade monitor. The picture
quality is determined by the output format and the display device. If you use the same output
format and display device for MAME and arcade hardware, you will see identical picture
quality, obviously.

03-21-2018, 09:40 PM
starcrytas

I don't know much about the RNG factors into Donkey Kong Jr, but what are the chances that
Billy managed to get the RNG required on both DK and DK Jr. to get both world records on
the same day and verified by a referee?
I'm guessing about 3.5 hours for both DK and DK Jr. which would mean 7 hours of gameplay
in that one day.

03-21-2018, 11:16 PM
RTM

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000806
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 806/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

This guy is blissfully unaware that there are multiple methods of making a PC output a ~15
kHz RGB video signal exactly like the arcade hardware does

RTM REPLY - maybe not...if what Wolff speculated is true, that he is being paid by Billy,
then perhaps he is indeed aware but is presenting a theory that he hopes will pull the wool
over peoples' eyes.

Like paid-experts who testify in court, each side (prosecutor and plaintiff) can pick their own
"expert", each of which provides variant testimony. It comes down to which one is right even
if both provide to the layperson a viable explanation. Just watch the movie "My Cousin
Vinny" to see a scripted example of this in action.

03-22-2018, 12:35 AM
Dwayne Richard
for all the know it alls

People have no idea about the timeline.

I was already fired as a referee when we were going through the tapes. I there is irony is i
thought the perfect way to cheat was the mame save state tape. I had the idea to try to record
one and submit it to tg to see if the referees could pick it up, but i never did anything on that
other mention the idea once to richie and others at the dinner at funspot and ask rick fothergill
if he would help me record a dk save state a couple times and he said no and i never made any
more effort. Hank Chein did his powerpoint presentation to the chief referee and nothing
changed so it would not have mattered. No one was interested in the truth. Hank convinced
me Bill was the fraud. Weibe lied alot in the kok and in other situations about people so for
those who think weibe got a raw deal fine but the whole staging of kok and his lies and the
fact he has made alot of money lying about me and my friends. That is my issue not whether
he can play or not. This was from 9 or 10 years ago when i had the idea but time and interest
and technology has caught up. It was simply i wanted people to be aware of the potential I
didn't know for sure Bill used mame and had no way to prove it. I did most of my research on
the perfect pacman history.

For all you who think you know everything ask me a question before you tell everybody what
i have said or done and find out i it is true or not.

dwayne richard for those who cannot spell my name

03-22-2018, 12:36 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

Like paid-experts who testify in court, each side (prosecutor and plaintiff) can pick their own
"expert", each of which provides variant testimony. It comes down to which one is right even

Exhibit A - 000807
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 807/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

if both provide to the layperson a viable explanation. Just watch the movie "My Cousin
Vinny" to see a scripted example of this in action.

It's even worse in real life than it is in that movie. In that movie, said experts were at least
being honest about their findings. There's been multiple examples of the prosecution hiring
and paying psychologists to categorically destroy the defendant's character on the stand, even
it would turn out later the defendant was actually innocent. My favorite example of this is the
documentary "The Thin Blue Line" where the DA hired a man that got the nickname 'Dr.
Death' because in 99% of the cases he'd testified in, he always used his 'expert' opinion to
state the defendant was beyond all help and should be executed immediately.

Conversely, council for the defense in other cases have paid 'experts' to come in and attack
murder victims. I remember Jodi Arias's lawyers hired some kook to come in and claim the
victim she murdered and nearly decapitated was abusive to her. Keep in mind all the
testimony up to that point of everyone that knew her said she was an absolute psycho and that
the dude broke up with her over it, but that didn't stop her lawyers from using a such a slimy
'expert' to make the claim. She was convicted of the murder, but spared the death penalty
because the jury foreman "thought she was hot".

Just shows how dumb and impressionable the average person is, and why the jury system is
terrible. Like the old saying goes: If you're innocent, you want a trial by judge. If you're
guilty, you want a trial by jury.

03-22-2018, 12:55 AM
ant3x7

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Jace should copy that information in his case file. It clearly shows that even if you HACK the
arcade hardware's timing, you STILL cannot get it to look like the MAME artifacts in Billy's
tapes.

If by some wand of magic IT IS possible to hack the timing of the arcade to appear MAME-
like, then Billy’s score should still instantly be DQ’d on grounds of a modified machine. Any
change in timing that causes girders to load differently from normal operations would also
theoretically modify gameplay. Scores disqualified.

The only thing this does is save face for Billy. This is apparently his only line of defense now.

03-22-2018, 02:38 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by ant3x7

The only thing this does is save face for Billy. This is apparently his only line of defense now.

Exhibit A - 000808
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 808/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Except that it won't save face for him, because it doesn't work! Even if it did work, it would
still be cheating for modding the hardware as you said.

We've talked a lot about last lines of defense, but it seems Billy is clinging to "these aren't the
tapes you're looking for".

03-22-2018, 02:54 AM
Jace Hall
1 Attachment(s)

For those that are interested...

Attachment 53324

03-22-2018, 03:10 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

For those that are interested...
Attachment 53324

Please try to stream on youtube as well. With recent events facebook is not something anyone
should be using.

03-22-2018, 03:42 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Please try to stream on youtube as well. With recent events facebook is not something anyone
should be using.

Agreed, or Twitch.

03-22-2018, 04:26 AM
FBX

I would also prefer a youtube stream please. Thanks!

03-22-2018, 05:52 AM
Ripper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

For those that are interested...
Attachment 53324

What time?

03-22-2018, 05:57 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Exhibit A - 000809
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 809/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

What time?

Bottom of the VHS tape says 3pm PST March 22. So I am assuming today at 6pm eastern
standard time.

03-22-2018, 05:58 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper

What time?

3:00PM PST

03-22-2018, 05:58 AM
Ripper

Never mind the time. LOL Just over looked that part.

03-22-2018, 06:39 AM
q43
1 Attachment(s)

A few things I noticed while going through everything today.

1. At 34:53 in the Triforce Kong off 6 video Billy says: "This wasn't at a time when
everybody streamed on twitch and all that stuff, it wasn't. Or I would've had it set up that way.

Four days after Billy supposedly played at Boomers LMDAVE posted this on the forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMDAVE

why not stream it so we can all watch it live? Everyone else is doing the stream thing so
easily.

2. In that same video at 49:39, Billy says: "Okay the manager of Grand Prix, there's two of
them, they're 85 years old."

I'm not sure which two managers he's referring to here but in Robert Childs video from
moments after Billy (allegedly) broke the Donkey Kong record they introduce us to the
manager at the time, Joe T. I'm sure the best manager to speak with about this dispute would
be the manager at the time, Joe T. This is him from that video 8 years ago, at 77?

Attachment 53332

3. Another thing I found odd in that Robert Childs video is at the beginning (1:14) Billy says:
"Once the records came, they came"
Exhibit A - 000810
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 810/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

But this is supposed to be moments after breaking the Donkey Kong record, before he tackled
the Donkey Kong Jr. record, so why the use of; "records, and they"?

03-22-2018, 07:18 AM
Robert.F

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

A few things I noticed while going through everything today.

1. At 34:53 in the Triforce Kong off 6 video Billy says: "This wasn't at a time when
everybody streamed on twitch and all that stuff, it wasn't. Or I would've had it set up that way.

Four days after Billy supposedly played at Boomers LMDAVE posted this on the forum.

2. In that same video at 49:39, Billy says: "Okay the manager of Grand Prix, there's two of
them, they're 85 years old."

Attachment 53332

3. Another thing I found odd in that Robert Childs video is at the beginning (1:14) Billy says:
"Once the records came, they came"

But this is supposed to be moments after breaking the Donkey Kong record, before he tackled
the Donkey Kong Jr. record, so why the use of; "records, and they"?

Just a thought as to why

Compulsive Liars
feel literally compelled to lie, either because it’s the only way they know of
operating or because they are uncomfortable with the truth
often lie for no clear reason and sometimes for no real benefit
make up lies more spontaneously and without great thought
prefer to tell the sorts of lies that they think people want to hear
mostly know what is a lie and what is the truth
are more likely to admit to lying when confronted, though this might not stop
them from continuing to lie

03-22-2018, 07:23 AM
Robert.F
Exhibit A - 000811
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 811/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

just a thought as to why

Pathological Liars
lie with a clear intent or motive
create extravagant stories that may be maintained/tweaked over long periods of
time
often believe their own lies / have a weak grip on reality
are more likely to go on the defensive if a lie is challenged
have more control over when they lie
feel less discomfort and exhibit fewer of the signs of lying

03-22-2018, 07:43 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by q43

3. Another thing I found odd in that Robert Childs video is at the beginning (1:14) Billy says:
"Once the records came, they came"

But this is supposed to be moments after breaking the Donkey Kong record, before he tackled
the Donkey Kong Jr. record, so why the use of; "records, and they"?

It has been admitted that the video was staged. According to Billy, the records were achieved,
they went to dinner, and then came back to stage the board swap. That's my understanding of
the order of events, at least, and would explain this statement, which as of 2 weeks ago
would've been more interesting (ahead of the confession).

03-22-2018, 07:50 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

It has been admitted that the video was staged. According to Billy, the records were achieved,
they went to dinner, and then came back to stage the board swap.

How much you want to bet had Robert thought of putting a DK board in their staged video,
they'd be confessing at all about it now?

03-22-2018, 07:52 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

For those that are interested...

Please archive today's broadcast and post a link, once the live stream is done. Some of us
have to work for a living. :) I won't be able to watch live, and will be viewing around 6 p.m
PST.

03-22-2018, 08:04 AM
Exhibit A - 000812
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 812/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

It has been admitted that the video was staged.

I know he admitted the board swap video to be fake but I was referring to the video from the
picture of Joe T. The "Billy Mitchell speaks (July 2010) moments after breaking donkey kong
record". Mr. Childs actually posted 3 videos of Billy that day. 1 right after the Donkey Kong
record, the second was the fake board swap and the last was supposedly right after setting
both records. I was referring to the first video. As far as I know Billy has not stated it to was
staged, just the board swap video.

It would be nice if Billy/ Robert/ Carlos could come up with a timeline of what exactly
happened but they seem to change their stories a bit.

03-22-2018, 08:20 AM
YesAffinity

^my mistake, thank you for clarifying. It does get confusing, and would be nice to get some
further clarification from the sources but I think its intentional.

03-22-2018, 08:20 AM
Tessman

I'd also like request that the Stream be on Twitch, Youtube, Hitbox, or literally any platform
that isn't Facebook :).

03-22-2018, 09:13 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

For those that are interested...

It seems like there isn't going to be enough time to make this event available on streaming
services other than the highly dubious Facebook. Therefore, my request is that the stream be
made immediately available on Youtube upon completion. I flatly refuse to visit Facebook,
and haven't in years.

03-22-2018, 09:21 AM
Prophecyrob

To bad Jace couldn’t Skype with Billy and ask some very direct questions about the
investigation... see if Billy would come clean. I’d like to think before a verdict is rendered
that this might be tried.

03-22-2018, 09:55 AM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Exhibit A - 000813
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 813/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I commented on that YouTube video; I'll repeat it here:

Yeah, this Carlos guy is very flaky as a tech. He has no idea what he is talking about or hopes
that we don't know what he is talking about (as he is too "tech savvy"). He is counting on our
ignorance. What a joke. I can confirm that Dell and HP (most) laptops had a S-Video plug
(and I even mentioned it many pages before). These go back to at least year 2000. Back in
1997 Dell Latitude Cpi laptop had just VGA out, for example. I still have 5-6 new/original
Dell S-Video to Composite RCA adapters (that can be used with any S-Video plug). Getting
Composite video from a laptop was very easy.
If you wanted to go one step further, you could use a docking station that allowed even more
connecting options.

I'm glad that lack of "the finger" in earlier versions of MAME got debunked after the Kong
Off (not before). It forced them to show their cards (watch Billy's cocky attitude when he
talked about it). It reminds me of that "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit." If they are such tech
savvy, they should know about the changeable refresh rate (someone who helped Billy had to
know about it), but they played their cards that there were no "fingers" in earlier versions of
MAME, counting on our ignorance. This whole thing is like watching a train wreck in a slow
motion.

Carlos, your arguments are a sad joke.

03-22-2018, 10:14 AM
Jace Hall

Exhibit A - 000814
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 814/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

We dont have questions for Billy. He doesn't have to answer anything. Scores don't have to
defend themselves. The dispute claims are what is being validated/invalidated. We are not re-
adjudicating a score that is already in the database.

If the dispute claims are definitively proven, then they stand on their own.

03-22-2018, 11:22 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

If the dispute claims are definitively proven, then they stand on their own.

Does the video of them in the cabin reviewing Wiebe's tape bring up any suspicions? I feel
like that is kind of damning how they are openly talking about creating a save stated game in
MAME.

03-22-2018, 11:23 AM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

If the dispute claims are definitively proven, then they stand on their own.

Just to confirm this, you do not have access, nor possession of the original tape being disputed
here, (the 1,062,800).
You only have in possession of 2 other tapes of Billy's prior performances, that you will be
reviewing with us in your live feed. Correct?

03-22-2018, 11:25 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Exhibit A - 000815
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 815/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

That is the one he is standing in front of correct? That is already proven to be MAME and
doesn't really need to be proved again. This seems like a formality.

03-22-2018, 12:34 PM
q43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessman

I'd also request that the Stream be on Twitch, Youtube, Hitbox, or literally any platform that
isn't Facebook :).

If only TG had some kind of way to stream live in house, maybe someday.

03-22-2018, 01:52 PM
Godfather

This reminds me of the A-Rod scandal. I just hope that if it is definitively proven Billy did in
fact cheat, not only are his scores wiped from thr database but not worth of a hall of fame
title.

Regarding A-Rod once the evidence was irrefutable he admitted to it, and implored that they
only removed the years of his career(on the rangers) he was caught and admitted to from his
records and he is still a hall of fame candidate. That is rediculous. Nevermind the scoring
titles and awards and accolades that should have been someonelse that time had passed!

I hope this is handled consistant with other passed cheaters. TG may have had a bad
reputation but i know for a fact this new ownership is the only ownership i have ever seen get
stuff down and been as diplomatic and fair as possible.

03-22-2018, 02:38 PM
Hotrod6045

So far, after a failed start to the stream, Jace is just getting into history and how he bought TG
and how there's no ties of Jace's TG from the past versions of TG.

Also, it's admin staff's fault if the stream fails. Jace said so.

03-22-2018, 02:43 PM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

So far, after a failed start to the stream, Jace is just getting into history and how he bought TG
and how there's no ties of Jace's TG from the past versions of TG.

Also, it's admin staff's fault if the stream fails. Jace said so.

Wonder when Carlos is going to post the mentioned points here.

03-22-2018, 03:00 PM
Hotrod6045

Exhibit A - 000816
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 816/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Definitive answer to any suggestion of splitting pre-TGSAP scores from post-TGSAP scores
from Jace: No.

03-22-2018, 03:32 PM
Tessman

Alright, so the ability for Jace to move back and forth between a frame on the VHS with that
magical VHS device is really cool!

03-22-2018, 04:17 PM
Hotrod6045

We have seen several MAME indicative transitions on rivet frames and we got the girder
finger in at least one frame on the 1.047m video's girder frames on the live stream.

The three girder MAME transitions, so far on 1.047m, have several partial loaded lower
girders from the next frame that were captured on the 30 fps video.

03-22-2018, 04:22 PM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 53372

From the live stream.

03-22-2018, 04:31 PM
rotunda
2 Attachment(s)

Attachment 53374

and again on another section of the tape. (527k)

03-22-2018, 04:45 PM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 53375

Instant collapse on the rivet board.

03-22-2018, 05:08 PM
omega175
1 Attachment(s)

Now that is interesting:

Attachment 53380

03-22-2018, 05:14 PM
Hotrod6045

https://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_de...ly-mitchell/10

Well, that escalated quickly. The article was heavily edited to remove allExhibit
bias. A - 000817
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 817/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I hope the author was subsequently removed for that hack job.

03-22-2018, 05:35 PM
RomulusVonFlex

The mortgage brokers tape is also MAME generated. Just confirmed on the stream.

03-22-2018, 05:36 PM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

https://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_de...ly-mitchell/10

Well, that escalated quickly. The article was heavily edited to remove all bias.

I hope the author was subsequently removed for that hack job.

I really hope they will not go as far as getting lawyers for this. It's just plain stupid. If they get
the lawyers and later Billy's scores are removed, I think people who "suffered" as a
consequence of his cheating should get some lawyers of their own. Let Billy and others have
some taste of their own medicine.

03-22-2018, 05:48 PM
dcq

Can someone who watched the live stream summarize it for those of us who were not able to
watch it?

03-22-2018, 05:56 PM
paramylodon

Wow.. Around 711400 on the second tape that Jace is showing the 1UP flashing lasts 3 times
more usual.

03-22-2018, 06:01 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Wow.. Around 711400 on the second tape that Jace is showing the 1UP flashing lasts 3 times
more usual.

Yup yet more evidence has appeared during the stream. I saw it with my own eyes.

03-22-2018, 06:03 PM
Hotrod6045

1.05m tape shows MAME signatures and possible splicing or pausing. Definite girder finger
in 1.05m.

I spotted a pie stage MAME signature in the tape as well.

Exhibit A - 000818
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 818/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-22-2018, 06:17 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcq

Can someone who watched the live stream summarize it for those of us who were not able to
watch it?

It is still going.

03-22-2018, 06:18 PM
DustPuzzle

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

Yup yet more evidence has appeared during the stream. I saw it with my own eyes.

This should be checked against genuine arcade footage, and possibly even MAME footage to
see if it actually is evidence of anything. If it doesn't show up anywhere else it's gotta be
evidence of video editing.

03-22-2018, 06:23 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustPuzzle

Jace has stated that is next on the to do list. so it's just a case of waiting now.

03-22-2018, 06:48 PM
YesAffinity

First take, from a replication of the Billy Mitchell direct feed setup. Nintendo inverter board -
> Two Bit encoder -> PC capture.

I will be recording to VHS, as well, and sending those to Jace. I haven't dug too deep into the
captured video yet, but what I have looked at was NOT magically transformed to MAME
frames.

walk through of the setup: https://youtu.be/VfnHXjrm2g8

PC capture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCtPb2-iVVs

03-22-2018, 06:50 PM
YesAffinity

Oh, and while I believed I was setting my capture card to 480p/30, I don't believe it actually
supports a 30p, and from what I can tell, it is still at 60fps.

Exhibit A - 000819
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 819/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-22-2018, 06:56 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Can someone link Jace to this video in the facebook chat? He is focused on the stream.

03-22-2018, 07:26 PM
The Evener

@Jace Hall , I didn't want to revisit the question given you were on-line explaining the
investigation for 4+ hours, so I decided to ask a follow up here.

TG can't examine a 1.06 million tape since Billy didn't hand a copy over. That said, Xelnia
included footage in his evidence package from the IVGHOF/Big Bang announcement that
included play back of Billy's 1.06 million high score. As you know, Billy had set up two TVs
and two VCRs - one featuring his DK record, and the other with this DK Junior record, which
he claimed he achieved live at Boomer's arcade on 31 July 2010. Following Xelnia's original
post, I believe that footage from three other people who attended the IVGHOF have been
cited in this dispute, including an upload from the The Christian Pac-Man that you pointed
out included possible evidence of a MAME transition. Given that any copies of the 1.06
million score that may exist in the wild will not be handed over for TG's review, is TG
prepared to examine the existing IVGHOF footage to arrive at a decision in the absence of
another source? My own understanding from informal comparisons between, for examle, the
YouTube copy of the 1.04 million score and the original tape in TG's possession (as well as
other tests conducted in this dispute) demonstrate that while not ideal, external camera
capture of play back footage can be reasonably used for investigation and analysis.

03-22-2018, 08:23 PM
timmell

I need to clear the air on something that Billy Mitchell said in this video at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H7OWRdywQ4&t=2430s

States that "Settle it on the Screen wrote in a YouTube description on Billy last 5 min. 1.05
score

"Final minutes of Billy's former record. This is a direct recording that was done of the game
Billy played LIVE in Florida after the filming of the King of Kong ended to regain the record.
In attendance live was a referee, 300+ witnesses, and notary public who had the machine's
motherboard verified by Nintendo engineers.. (Sorry, no sound)"

That text and video was written/uploaded by the Pete B. admin of Twin Galaxies. Settle it on
the Screen was not in control of the Twin Galaxies Youtube channel at that time.
Pete B. granted me the Twin Galaxies Youtube page in 2011. I changed the name to Settle it
on the Screen from the Twin Galaxies Youtube page circa 2012.

I also added this text to the video description and edit to now allow comments. But I left the
original text for historical purposes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbRN549NYuU

03-22-2018, 08:25 PM
YesAffinity
Exhibit A - 000820
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 820/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

DK Arcade - More Grabs w/ Nintendo Inverter Board and Two Bit Score Encoder - 24hz

https://youtu.be/brRKAnK-d_I

This one is a direct feed through my DVDO Iscan VP30, with the VP30 set to a "24 hz lock",
which is effectively 24fps. OBS is recording at 60fps, so you get many duplicated frames.
Still can't get away from the "sliding door" frames, 5 partial girders at the barrel stage startup,
falling girder signature frames at the end of rivets. I'm not yet seeing the girder finger either.

03-22-2018, 08:39 PM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)

My favorite part: Comparing the KOK rollover segment vs. the actual video tape segment.
HOLLYWOOD!!!

Attachment 53383 "

03-22-2018, 09:12 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

@Jace Hall, I didn't want to revisit the question given you were on-line explaining the
investigation for 4+ hours, so I decided to ask a follow up here.

All evidence will be examined and considered in this matter. Rest assured.

03-22-2018, 09:14 PM
FBX

Just want to thank Jace for the stream today as it was quite thorough in examining various
transition examples. The 24-frame 1-up at 711,400 was just icing on the top.

I will be looking forward to the recordings you make from the real arcade and Two-Bit
converter. Though we all already know that of course no 3-girder + 'finger' action won't be
happening.

Billy's latest slippery double-talk suggests he is clinging to the notion that 'original tapes' will
Exhibit A - 000821
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 821/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

exonerate him. I was thankful that you showed categorically that the 1.047 and 1.05 are
unmistakably Billy's footage, and having the DVD from Erway cemented that fact.

03-22-2018, 09:16 PM
FBX

* no 3-girder + finger action will be happening *

(we really need edit permissions on this thread)

03-22-2018, 10:30 PM
GibGirl

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Wow.. Around 711400 on the second tape that Jace is showing the 1UP flashing lasts 3 times
more usual.

This one is definitely odd. I did some side-by-side comparison to a separate recording from an
arcade machine, and the timings and the non-moving flame all still seem good. And the fact
that it lasted 24 frames matches up exactly with the timing if there was some sort of bug that
resulted in this "1UP" failing to turn off that one time.

I guess I'm saying that without further analysis, that is just an oddity that does not support any
conclusions.

03-22-2018, 10:56 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibGirl

I guess I'm saying that without further analysis, that is just an oddity that does not support any
conclusions.

There's not much that can be done except try to hope to see it happen in known legit arcade
hardware. I'm going to review the 2 hours of Chris Gleed's video (I have the full HD 60fps
footage on my computer) and see if it ever happens in his video.

Now while it's true that it doesn't support any conclusions because we can only speculate
what caused it, but if the tapes are indeed ruled to be MAME recordings, that changes the
implications of what might be the cause. Stuff like a glitched load-state for example, or it
could even just be an emulation bug.

03-22-2018, 11:17 PM
FBX

In Chris's video, VLC's frame advance feature seems to be randomly not advancing a frame
when I click the button, this is making it impossible to get a correct frame count with manual
advance. Going to try different software. Possible Virtual Dub.

03-22-2018, 11:21 PM
Asterra

Exhibit A - 000822
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 822/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

So now's the time when those of us who couldn't or wouldn't watch the stream (due to the
nature of its hosting) start making nuisances of ourselves asking for it to be made available in
full, on Youtube.

03-22-2018, 11:22 PM
airmaverick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Already posted in full on the TG newsfeed

https://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_de...-score-today/1

I am currently watching :)

03-22-2018, 11:23 PM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Its available to view here, under the "Newsfeed" tab.

03-22-2018, 11:24 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

It can be rewatched on Facebook if you're inclined to try it there.

At any rate, I found windows media player is giving proper frame advance function, so I've
switched to that. Since Chris's video is 60 fps, each on and off state of the 1UP is exactly 16
frames long (which of course would be 8 frames for 30 fps).

03-22-2018, 11:30 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Exhibit A - 000823
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 823/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Going to speculate in advance that it's something that actually happens in Donkey Kong
(arcade/MAME). It's already easy enough to manipulate MAME from start to finish to get the
result you want. For a splice like this, you'd need to plug in memory tweaks to set the level
and the player's score. Not saying that's hard, or somehow beyond the technical acumen of
whoever already went so far as to fake the whole thing in the first place, just an unneeded
added complication.

On the other hand, if it turns out this doesn't happen in real DK, then sure, those simple steps
and any video editor would get you what you were after.

03-22-2018, 11:30 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibGirl

I guess I'm saying that without further analysis, that is just an oddity that does not support any
conclusions.

After digesting Jace's stream a bit I thought something similar. If it wasn't exactly 3 times as
long - indicating just a possible "skip" of the off-state - then it would be far more concerning.

Another thing is that if irregular 1UP flashing indicated splicing or save states, then it's weird
that it's longer than 2x the normal duration. For it to last 24 frames, then 3 full on-states
would have had to be spliced together, which seems unlikely. What I would expect is that if
the on-state is 8 frames, then two spliced together on-states would last a maximum of 16
frames if the splicer is trying to overlap the on-states. I don't know if that makes any sense but
it works in my head...

To be perfectly clear though, I don't think this really matters in the grand scheme of things
since the true indicators that have survived months of scrutiny are the transition screens. To
me, the 1UP thing is just an interesting thing to think about.

03-22-2018, 11:31 PM
erockbrox

I just found this video on youtube where these two guys do hardware tests on actual DK
hardware. Did anyone ever see this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l32-QCMo-es

03-22-2018, 11:47 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Exhibit A - 000824
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 824/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This image is for posterity and if Jace wants to add it to his data file of images. It's from Chris
Gleed's 60fps video showing what happens on real arcade during a rivet stage completion:

Attachment 53394

Of course I realize a 30fps capture is typically going to miss the middle frame, but the law of
averages dictates there should be at least one example in Billy's videos that snag that middle
frame (if he were using original hardware). Using MAME, that middle frame will never show
up.

03-22-2018, 11:55 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I just found this video on youtube where these two guys do hardware tests on actual DK
hardware. Did anyone ever see this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l32-QCMo-es

They make the typical mistake of filming the CRT screens to show their results. Billy's tapes
that TG are investigating are direct feed. Not shot from a CRT screen.

03-23-2018, 12:11 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I just found this video on youtube where these two guys do hardware tests on actual DK
hardware. Did anyone ever see this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l32-QCMo-es

yes we saw and reviewed this.

03-23-2018, 01:28 AM
Rev John

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Wow.. Around 711400 on the second tape that Jace is showing the 1UP flashing lasts 3 times
more usual.

Here are the relevant bits of DK code disasssembly -

; Disassembly of the file "E:\Mame32\roms\dkong-hacked\dkongfull.bin"

;
; Created with dZ80 v1.31
;
; on Tuesday, 30 of October 2007 at 11:22 PM

...
Exhibit A - 000825
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 825/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

; #601A - Timer constantly counts down from FF to 00 and then FF to 00 again and again ... 1
count per frame

...

02C7 CD1503 CALL #0315 ; else flash the "1UP" above the score when it is time to do so

...

; called from #02C7

; flashes 1UP or 2UP

0315 3A1A60 LD A,($601A) ; load A with timer constantly counts down from FF to 00 and
then FF to 00 again and again ... 1 count per frame
0318 47 LD B,A ; copy to B
0319 E60F AND #0F ; mask bits, now between 0 and #F. Is it zero ?
031B C0 RET NZ ; no, return

031C CF RST #8 ; if credits exist or someone is playing, continue. else RET

031D 3A0D60 LD A,(#600D) ; Load A with player # (0 for player 1, 1 for player 2)
0320 CD4703 CALL #0347 ; Loads HL with location for score (either player 1 or 2)
0323 11E0FF LD DE,#FFE0 ; load DE with offset for each column
0326 CB60 BIT 4,B ; test bit 4 of timer. Is it zero ?
0328 2814 JR Z,#033E ; yes, skip ahead

032A 3E10 LD A,#10 ; A := #10 = blank character

032C 77 LD (HL),A ; clear the text "1" from "1UP" or "2" from "2UP"
032D 19 ADD HL,DE ; add offset for next column
032E 77 LD (HL),A ; clear the text "U" from "1UP"
032F 19 ADD HL,DE ; next column
0330 77 LD (HL),A ; clear the text "P" from "1UP"
0331 3A0F60 LD A,(#600F) ; load A with # of players in game
0334 A7 AND A ; is this a 1 player game?
0335 C8 RET Z ; yes, return

0336 3A0D60 LD A,(#600D) ; Load current player #

0339 EE01 XOR #01 ; change player from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 1
033B CD4703 CALL #0347 ; Loads HL with location for score (either player 1 or 2)

033E 3C INC A ; increase A, now it has the number of the player

033F 77 LD (HL),A ; draw player number on screen
0340 19 ADD HL,DE ; next column
0341 3625 LD (HL),#25 ; draw "U" on screen
0343 19 ADD HL,DE ; next column
0344 3620 LD (HL),#20 ; draw "P" on screen
0346 C9 RET ; return

; called from #033B

0347 214077 LD HL,#7740 ; for player 1 HL gets #7740 VRAM address

034A A7 AND A ; is this player 2?
034B C8 RET Z ; no, then return
Exhibit A - 000826
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 826/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

034C 21E074 LD HL,#74E0 ; player 2 gets #74E0 location on screen

034F C9 RET ; return

From memory locations 0315-031B you can see that the timing of the 1UP flash is dependent
on memory location 601A.

601A is only ever read by the DK program, it is never written to by the program code. It is
some sort of timer that must be set by something on the DK PCB that is NOT part of the DK
program itself. In an arcade machine running normally, a disruption to this timer and
subsequent mistiming of the 1UP flash should not ocur, or at least I figure it's something that
people haven't seen happen on real hardware.

My guess is that those early versions of MAME did not save memory location 601A in DK
save-states - I would love it if a MAME expert could confirm. This timer is used by the DK
code for psuedo-random number generation and for the timing of various in-game tasks, such
as the 1UP flash. If the value at 601A is not saved in a save-state, it would throw out the
timing of the 1UP flash when gameplay was restarted and later shown in a continuous stream.

TL;DR - MAME

03-23-2018, 03:32 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

https://youtu.be/brRKAnK-d_I

Here are some additional examples of DK direct feed output that contain signatures for arcade
transitions in keeping with Xelnia's evidence:

Rivets
https://youtu.be/brRKAnK-d_I?t=1m34s

Pie Factory
https://youtu.be/brRKAnK-d_I?t=14m2s

Elevator
https://youtu.be/brRKAnK-d_I?t=6m32s

03-23-2018, 04:53 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Exhibit A - 000827
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 827/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

My favorite part: Comparing the KOK rollover segment vs. the actual video tape segment.
HOLLYWOOD!!!

Attachment 53383 "

People kept on about this...

It's easily explained. The tape in the movie was a COPY with issues. Billy later provided the
master tape which is what Jace has now and it was cleared and his score was accepted for the
second time (after Walter rushed the score into the DB.)

No Hollywood, it was as simple as that. I don't know why people kept going on about it haha.

03-23-2018, 06:55 AM
Rev John
1 Attachment(s)

There's one avenue that hasn't been explored yet, and you don't have to understand MAME or
screen transitions to know what is going on or take part. It has to do with the Donkey Kong
code which provides random 300 / 500 / 800 points for certain hammer smashes. It goes like
this -

DK players know from the game code that the breakup for 'blue barrel' hammer smashes is
25% 300 points, 50% 500 points, and 25% 800 points. Fire fireballs/firefoxes it is 50% 300
points, 33.333% 500 points, and 16.666% 800 points. A typical game on an actual arcade
machine should roughly meet these averages. However a cheating save-state MAME player is
going to tend to favour higher scores (eg 800 points rather than 300 points), so I
HYPOTHESIZE that MAME save-state cheaters will get an above-average amount of 800 or
500 point smashes.

This Youtube video is apparently Billy MItchell's game play -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI - 1,050,200 points

So to start I painstakingly (not even sound, yeah) tallied the smashes on the rivets screen. An
awesome player should not be relying on getting lots of 800 point smashes, but below is what
I counted. A favouring of 500/800 point scores, subtle but still more the chance alone. Some
may say Billy was lucky, but really the extra points didn't really push Billy above any
particular score. Billy has no control over the RNG yet gets very favourable 800 point
smashes Vs 300 points.

From a subjective point of view, what was weird from watching all those rivet screens was
that (i) Billy was always able to do his left hand side pattern, with no left leaning "democrats"
rushing across (ii) Billy never had to take 'retreating action' due to fireballs in the wrong
spots, and (iii) if Billy failed with the first hammer he mostly managed to make up with it
with some 800 point smashes (except for level 17, Billy must have figured he was on pace by
then).

However please stick to the objective side of this and count up some smashes, see how it
compares to the expected average. Below is my spreadsheet for the rivet screen on the
1,050,200 game. Those with a mathematical background would be able to calculate the odds
of this occurring by chance, but over 125 smashes I would guess the odds would be starting to
get very unlikely. I would invite others to count his blue barrel smashes, fireballs smashes,
and pie smashes on the various levels, both on the video mentioned above and on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk (1,047,200 points). If other find above-
Exhibit A - 000828
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 828/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

average point scoring then that would look increasingly suss. TG may want to do the same
with any 1,062,800 video in their possession. No matter how skilled you are, you can't get the
game to reward you with above average 500/800 point smashes every time you play.

Attachment 53416

TL;DR Billy used MAME

03-23-2018, 07:08 AM
Welp

I dislike statistical analysis for this kind of thing because there's an explanation for it - he kept
resetting the game when he was not on pace for over a million. Like, I watch RNG-based
speedruns all the time. The chances of getting the RNG needed to beat the WR in Mike
Tyson's Punch-Out are ridiculously low. Same with WRing in SMB3. But it can be done if
you put in enough attempts and play at a high enough level to take advantage of it. I'd
imagine that all runs that ended up first on the scoreboard have more favorable scoring than
an average game.

I think the focus on the transitions makes more sense. MAME at the time was not capable of
creating boards that looked like the arcade, and the arcade could never create boards in the
same way MAME did. That's all the proof you need.

03-23-2018, 07:45 AM
Rev John

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

I totally agree that Billy has abused MAME and that it shows up in the MAME board
transitions. My main concern is that he cheated and I wanted to point out an additional avenue
of evidence towards that. I understand that some WR scores may involve a little bit if luck,
however we are talking about a bloke who claims to have beat the DK WR then straight after
got the DK Jnr WR, no room for lucky RNG there.

TL;DR - Billy cheated and used MAME

03-23-2018, 08:17 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev John

Exhibit A - 000829
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 829/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

TL;DR - Billy cheated and used MAME

I agree with Welp that the MAME transitions are indeed critical, but I believe that we as a
community should cast as wide as possible the net to identify evidence in order to reach as
broad a consensus as possible. As clear as MAME transitions are, not everyone is prepared to
use them alone in arriving at a conclusion, however much we might disagree with that. I saw
some posts last night on the Facebook stream of Jace's review of the DK tapes where people
mused "maybe Billy didn't know it was MAME," or elsewhere, "what kind of advantages
could a player of Billy's caliber attain with MAME?" Statistical review of points and frank
discussion about opportunities to "fine tune" runs through save-state opportunities help
explain why someone would use MAME and choose to claim it was live arcade play, and that
such a decision could never been accidental when you review past statements about how these
records were allegedly achieved according to the participants.

03-23-2018, 08:28 AM
Snowflake

hi @Jace Hall ,
I had a question i repeated several times but was missed i'd like to ask it again here.

Billy has previously mentioned on his interviews he sent the board to be certified. @timmell
even i see just added a comment showing that his own youtube channel (when managed by
someone else) made a simliar claim. Will you be looking for this certification.

This is relevant, because it seems the newest angle is to acknowledge billy played on mame,
but perhaps some insidious arcade owner snuck mame into the cab and tricked poor billy into
playing on mame wihtout his knowledge. demonstrating billy certified a board that wasnt
mame would show that he was intentional being deceptive about the perfromance itself. why
would he ceritfy a different real board and claim that was the board he played on if he was
tricked?

this certification should help establish that billy wasnt tricked but was quite invovled in the
deception.

03-23-2018, 08:32 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibGirl

I guess I'm saying that without further analysis, that is just an oddity that does not support any
conclusions.

Exhibit A - 000830
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 830/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

thx gibgirl, i agree, i dont want to jump on a bandwagon of stuff i dont understand. I think of
jace pointing out most of us just trusted xelnia's screesnhot without verifying for ourselves.
Or i think of dragster, how many of us read the code versus just trusted omni. well, for this
one, i believe i do undersatnd the "finger of mame" thx to others explaining it to me and me
being able to see it myself, but i dont share the excitment just yet that others seem to have
about this pause.

sure, its unusual, but unless we can say "mame does this" all we now is something weird
happened. Think of the whole "well of course degradation happens in a copy" excuse. thats
true, but what are the odds the degradation woudl exactly match mame? thats where billy gets
sunk. I feel this is similiar. yeah, the freeze is really weird, but sometimes bugs happen, things
freeze. now, if it can be shown that freeze is the exact amount of frames that using save states
could cause a freeze or something else thats too much of a coincidence to ignore, then
awesome, got him again. for now though i'm just seeing a suspicious mystery and im not
seeing how it proves billy guilty of anyting (yet)

03-23-2018, 08:47 AM
Hotrod6045

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

hi @Jace Hall ,
I had a question i repeated several times but was missed i'd like to ask it again here.

this certification should help establish that billy wasnt tricked but was quite invovled in the
deception.

I'm gonna guess this is a stall to delay any result being issued soon because, who knows, the
board could have been long lost by now.

03-23-2018, 08:48 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

I'm gonna guess this is a stall to delay any result being issued soon because, who knows, the
board could have been long lost by now.

to clarify i'm not asking for the board (we all know it wasnt done on a real board), i'm asking
for the certfication billy claims he has.

03-23-2018, 08:49 AM Exhibit A - 000831

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 831/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

People kept on about this...

No Hollywood, it was as simple as that. I don't know why people kept going on about it haha.

Well aware of the KOK story, hearing out what was real, and what was scripted.

Coining the term "Hollywood" is a pun, meaning, not everything is as it seems in a film, vs.
now seeing it live in front of you. Its a saying- "Thats Hollywood".

Eg. Seeing an exact squiggly 1,000,000 rollover from the firm. Last nights video we
witnessed a squiggly-less rollover. :)

03-23-2018, 10:20 AM
rotunda

Ahhhh ok my mistake haha!

I'll get my coat... :D

03-23-2018, 10:27 AM
Dwayne Richard
Nintendo certification

I don't think it will be what you expected. Bill was supposed to have a contact at nintendo in
washington state. He was to have sent the board to the contact by fedex or whatever courier
and have the board checked for "no gummy substance" then have it sent back like and chain
of evidence to open the package and install it in the game then send it back to confirm it was
the same board.

Makes no difference if you played on MAME just a distraction. Todd was the one who
received the board to put it in the cabinet. This was to show the code was not changed. That
was the point of the distraction. There was no video or pics i remember when this opening of
the package took place at the place bill was supposed to have set the score. No name was
mentioned who bill's contact was at nintendo. He did this staging more then once and never
mentioned the name or what credentials the contact at nintendo had.

I think the person was real but was more for appearances then anything practical.

dwayne

03-23-2018, 10:59 AM
YesAffinity

Regarding the 1UP flasher, some of us rely on the timing of this visual cue, when
transitioning from Lx-1 (barrels) to Lx-2 (pie factory), on L=5+ The reasoning is detailed
here:
Exhibit A - 000832
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 832/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...19877#msg19877

TL:DR version - The timing of the flasher at the completion of barrels affects the release of
the fireballs on the pie level. If you finish the level while the flasher is not present on the
screen, it prevents the the release of the 4th and 5th (final) fireballs from being released at the
same time. In the event that they are released at the same time, it results in the 5th fireball
release waiting for a full "release cycle". In essence, timing the completion while 1UP is not
on the screen ensures the fireballs all get released in quick succession, and that 5th fireball
release doesn't get delayed.

I personally position jumpman at the top of the ladder, watch the 1UP flasher, and when it is
on the screen, I press up. The few microseconds for eye-hand coordination to take place and
whatever nanoseconds transpire in the movement of the joystick and the input to register to
the game board, produces the result of the level completing with 1UP not on the screen.

All that said, for every 1UP flasher that I have ever scrutinized to execute this, which is
probably in the tens of thousands at this point, I have never noticed any timing anomalies. If
the timing were to differ by a factor of 3x, I would have to believe it would be noticeable to
those of us that are regularly looking at it.

Of course, this is all fairly subjective. But nonetheless, some of us rely on the consistent
timing of the 1UP flasher for a meaningful part of our gameplay strategy.

03-23-2018, 01:30 PM
CraigA

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Regarding the 1UP flasher, some of us rely on the timing of this visual cue, when
transitioning from Lx-1 (barrels) to Lx-2 (pie factory), on L=5+ The reasoning is detailed
here:

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...19877#msg19877

Exhibit A - 000833
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 833/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Of course, this is all fairly subjective. But nonetheless, some of us rely on the consistent
timing of the 1UP flasher for a meaningful part of our gameplay strategy.

Reading this makes it clear that I'll never be that good at Donkey Kong.

03-23-2018, 01:31 PM
bh_

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev John

This Youtube video is apparently Billy MItchell's game play -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI - 1,050,200 points

However please stick to the objective side of this and count up some smashes, see how it
compares to the expected average. Below is my spreadsheet for the rivet screen on the
1,050,200 game. Those with a mathematical background would be able to calculate the odds
of this occurring by chance, but over 125 smashes I would guess the odds would be starting to
get very unlikely. I would invite others to count his blue barrel smashes, fireballs smashes,
and pie smashes on the various levels, both on the video mentioned above and on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk (1,047,200 points). If other find above-
average point scoring then that would look increasingly suss. TG may want to do the same
with any 1,062,800 video in their possession. No matter how skilled you are, you can't get the
game to reward you with above average 500/800 point smashes every time you play.

Attachment 53416

Exhibit A - 000834
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 834/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

TL;DR Billy used MAME

I covered this back on page 58. You can compare with my numbers if you're so inclined.

03-23-2018, 01:32 PM
bh_

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev John

This Youtube video is apparently Billy MItchell's game play -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI - 1,050,200 points

However please stick to the objective side of this and count up some smashes, see how it
compares to the expected average. Below is my spreadsheet for the rivet screen on the
1,050,200 game. Those with a mathematical background would be able to calculate the odds
of this occurring by chance, but over 125 smashes I would guess the odds would be starting to
get very unlikely. I would invite others to count his blue barrel smashes, fireballs smashes,
and pie smashes on the various levels, both on the video mentioned above and on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk (1,047,200 points). If other find above-
average point scoring then that would look increasingly suss. TG may want to do the same
with any 1,062,800 video in their possession. No matter how skilled you are, you can't get the
game to reward you with above average 500/800 point smashes every time you play.

Attachment 53416

Exhibit A - 000835
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 835/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

TL;DR Billy used MAME

I covered this back on page 58. You can compare with my numbers if you're so inclined:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...8mM/edit#gid=0

03-23-2018, 01:41 PM
bh_

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

It matters in this case because there simply isn't enough time for Billy to have start scummed
his way to an awesome RNG. Besides he was on a WR pace even without the anomalously
wonderful RNG. This isn't suggestive of fair restarts. I seem to recall also that one of his WR
games was allegedly played "live and in the other room."

03-23-2018, 02:14 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

hi @Jace Hall,
I had a question i repeated several times but was missed i'd like to ask it again here.

this certification should help establish that billy wasnt tricked but was quite invovled in the
deception.

Let me be clear:

Exhibit A - 000836
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 836/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

TG is trying to determine if the claim made by this dispute case are valid. The claim is that
the known taped performances of Billy Mitchell are actually MAME recordings and not
original arcade gameplay. The claim is based on technical assertions. This is what TG is
examining closely.

HOW or WHY the content was put on the tape is irrelevant. Does not matter one bit what
someone knew or didn't know. TG does not care about certified boards, or any other non-
relevant item to the dispute claim. What matters is the actual content on the tape(s) as it
stands. That is what the dispute claim has made assertions about. That is what is being looked
at and analyzed. Either the performances on the tapes were produced by original DK
hardware, or they were not.

03-23-2018, 02:14 PM
deverett

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

I'm gonna guess this is a stall to delay any result being issued soon because, who knows, the
board could have been long lost by now.

Let's say a board really was verified, that does not demonstrate that it was in the machine
being used. ANY board could be sent for verification. This is only evidence if the rest of the
evidence chain is unbroken.

03-23-2018, 02:34 PM
Jace Hall
2 Attachment(s)
More Info

Upon close review... we discovered

The digital copies of Billy Mitchell's tape that we received from Richie Knuckles (who
received them from former TG Ref Greg Erway) are actually digital captures of the video
taped performances and are NOT "direct captures from a computer output."

We will be making these performances available today for review completely unaltered and
not re-compressed. (We have the ability to upload videos and keep their original compression
intact without our system re-compressing or changing anything.)

These recordings are the clearest recordings we have seen of the performances.

Attachment 53431Attachment 53432

03-23-2018, 02:54 PM
awesome

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Upon close review... we discovered

The digital copies of Billy Mitchell's tape that we received from Richie Knuckles (who
received them from former TG Ref Greg Erway) are actually digital captures of the video
Exhibit A - 000837
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 837/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

taped performances and are NOT "direct captures from a computer output."

These recordings are the clearest recordings we have seen of the performances.

Attachment 53431Attachment 53432

One clarification, I was a member of the rules committee and technical advisor for TG. I was
never officially titled a referee. I did however record some scores for TG at one or two
Funspot events. I reviewed some recordings to give my input to other refs, and in this case I
was asked to ref to 1.05M score, which I rejected as a taped submission based on my
understanding of the rules at the time. It was accepted under the rules at the time as a
witnessed score by Todd. I never entered a score into the TG database as I didn't have those
credentials nor did I wish to.

The 1.05M was received by me on DVD for review. The 1.04M score I included on the DVD
I burned for Richie was added as I had it and it fit on the remaining DVD space. I do not
recall the source of the 1.04M score I included. I do believe I never received any VHS tapes
for any scores to review. I do have other recordings of scores for Steve and possibley for Bill.
The original DVD that I received of the 1.05M score was forwarded on to another person that
was also asked to evaluate the recording. I simply copied the DVD contents, with permission,
to my computer and reviewed it from that copy.

hope that helps and might clarify anything that might have been confusing.

03-23-2018, 03:12 PM
erockbrox

Oh, this makes more sense now. Thanks.

03-23-2018, 04:14 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

These recordings are the clearest recordings we have seen of the performances.

Awesome! Please post in this thread the download links when you have them up. I want to
make my own archives of all the image evidence collected and collated thus far.

Cheers!

03-23-2018, 04:30 PM
maxim_recoil
Exhibit A - 000838
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 838/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Upon close review... we discovered

These recordings are the clearest recordings we have seen of the performances.

If they are the clearest recordings you have seen, then how can they be captures of the video
tape? A capture of a video tape can't be clearer than said video tape. It will inherently be
worse quality than the video tape due to generation loss. Hasn't it been established that the
recordings were originally done with a capture device on a PC at ~30 frames per second
(rather than ~60 fields per second like you'd get by recording directly with a VCR)? That,
along with the digital files being the clearest copies, indicates that the tapes were sourced
from the digital video files rather than the other way around.

03-23-2018, 04:33 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Degradation is a possibility. They aren't new tape. Digital copies won't lose quality.

03-23-2018, 04:47 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Degradation is a possibility. They aren't new tape. Digital copies won't lose quality.

Magnetic tape that's only a dozen or so years old and hasn't been played many times won't be
degraded by any significant amount. I have tapes from the mid '80s that aren't noticeably
degraded, and they have been played many times.

03-23-2018, 05:01 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000839
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 839/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

There are a lot of factors that could cause it though. Your tapes were probably better taken
care of.

03-23-2018, 06:07 PM
Jace Hall
Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong Performance Videos - 1,047,200 and 1,050,200

For evidentiary purposes of this dispute thread, we are attaching the digital copies of Billy
Mitchell's 1,050,200 and 1,047,200 performances that TG received from Richie Knuckles
(who received them from former TG advisor Greg Erway)

These are actually digital captures of the video taped performances and are NOT "direct
captures from a computer output."

These have been uploaded to keep its original compression intact without our system re-
compressing or changing anything.

DO NOT REPOST THESE VIDEOS WITHOUT EXPLICIT TG PERMISSION.

Exhibit A - 000840
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 840/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong 1,047,200

Play Video
Play
Loaded:
0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1387303 Copy

Exhibit A - 000841
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 841/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong 1,050,200

Play Video
Play
Loaded:
0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1387310 Copy

DO NOT REPOST THESE VIDEOS WITHOUT EXPLICIT TG PERMISSION.

Exhibit A - 000842
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 842/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-23-2018, 06:09 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

There are a lot of factors that could cause it though. Your tapes were probably better taken
care of.

Exactly. Even something as simple as having tapes near stereo speakers can severely degrade
the quality. Lets also not forgot that the DVD may have been recording from a 'master tape'
and not specifically from the VHS tape Jace also has.

03-23-2018, 06:30 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

DO NOT REPOST THESE VIDEOS WITHOUT EXPLICIT TG PERMISSION.

I was just about to quote this part about "DO NOT DOWNLOAD" and ask what was up with
that. ;-)

03-23-2018, 06:44 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

I was just about to quote this part about "DO NOT DOWNLOAD" and ask what was up with
that. ;-)

People should not repost the videos because it may create future liability for them - so it is
best that this content stays within the walls of TG.

03-23-2018, 07:14 PM
YesAffinity

So, the order of events seems to be:

1) Gameplay
2) VCR recording
3) VCR playback to digital recording (the Gigaware device)

These are more clear than what we've seen from previous recordings, but "transition" frames
still look like there is camera shutter mashing the frames together - previous frame on left half
of screen, new frame on right half of screen.

The girder finger is there on the loading of the very first barrel stage (L1-1).

Based all the analysis we've collectively done, our collective understanding of what the
different visual affects are and look like, depending on the recording device and the platform
of play, this footage really looks like:
Exhibit A - 000843
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 843/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

MAME playback, recorded with an external camcorder to a VHS tape, then the VHS tape
played back and captured to PC.

That is my "expert" opinion.

03-23-2018, 07:15 PM
FBX

Just a heads up:

I'm in the process of making a file package of the first transition frame in every girder stage of
the DVD of Billy's 1.047 million score. Let tell you that it is EXTREMELY damning. in the
first 8 girder stages I've captured from the file thus far, 6 of them fully show the 'finger' girder.
One of the remaining two comes just shy of showing the finger (due to the split screen
timing), and the other lands on the next frame of the sequence. I'm going to finish out the
captures and upload the zip here for reference.

But yeah, there are finger girders RIFE in the DVD rip, which means it was recorded from a
different tape.

03-23-2018, 08:15 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Just a heads up:

But yeah, there are finger girders RIFE in the DVD rip, which means it was recorded from a
different tape.

We've matched the digital versions you are looking at to the tape we have in our possession,
so the footage is the same. There definitely were multiple copies of the tape produced and
distributed to the refs. We have documentation of that in email. I would have to assume that
the digital version we have posted in this dispute thread was made from the master tape.

Our physical tape was probably made from the master tape as well, but has degraded over the
last 10 years and etc.

03-23-2018, 09:08 PM
Rev John

Quote:

Originally Posted by bh_

I covered this back on page 58. You can compare with my numbers if you're so inclined:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...8mM/edit#gid=0
Exhibit A - 000844
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 844/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Thanks bh_! I'm not sure many people realise how strong this line of evidence is against Billy.
If I can manage to properly quote you from before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bh_

I started by transcribing all of the blue barrel and flame smashes from barrel stages on
Mitchell's 1,050,000 game. Here's my

Quote:

Originally Posted by bh_

spreadsheet with timestamps. I hope this is accurate. The video has serious
quality problems and much of the time I was stuck inferring scores from
digit rollover in the blurry total score. I welcome any efforts to replicate,
extend or amend this transcript.

I suspect a transcription of variable scoring events in rivet and conveyor

stages will push the odds into absurd heights.

I hadn't seen your former post until now, so I'm glad I counted something
different. I was thinking along the same lines and counted the fireball
smashes on the rivets screen for the same game. Again Billy achieved a
higher than expected amount of 500 and 800 point smashes. The chances
of this happening by chance are therefore even higher than the 1 in 360
quoted above, and I would not be surprised if Billy also 'beat the odds' on
the conveyor stages as well, not to mention in his other videos.

To put this argument in a simple way, if you toss a coin 10 times you are
highly unlikely to get 'heads' 10 times in a row (try it!) However if you are
able to toss each coin again (like how you can replay a MAME save-state if
you didn't like the previous outcome) whenever you get 'tails' then you
can easily get heads 10 times in a row.

From what we've looked at now - and we both provided spreadsheets that
anyone can check - the chances of Billy randomly getting the high point
smashes on the barrel and rivet screens by chance are roughly in the
order of tossing a coin 10 times in a row and getting heads every time.

03-23-2018, 09:31 PM
FBX

Exhibit A - 000845
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 845/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Finally finished examining all 58 visible girder transitions in the MP4. Here are my notes:

Of the 58 transitions visible in the video (remember that some are when he killed his men off
and let the game run in attract mode at the end) 31 out of the 58 transitions had a visible
'finger' girder anomaly. That's more than 50% of the time! This perfectly falls into the law of
averages that tape wobble and other timing issues would cause the frame to be skipped.

Furthermore, when he killed his men off at the end, it became so obvious as to why he would
do that on a world record run: Using MAME took the entire element of fear out of the picture.
There's no way in hell he would have done that on a legit arcade game, especially on a new
world record. This indicates he was 'banking' runs using MAME just to mess with the
competition with an egotistical spin to it. The more I look at this, the more I am absolutely
disgusted with the man. I used to defend him all the time in forums threads that trashed his
character. I feel just as betrayed as when Lance Armstrong was finally busted for cheating.

At any rate, here's the zip package of the transitions using Windows Media Player screen
caps:

https://filetrip.net/dl?FSToFBKrIc

03-23-2018, 09:41 PM
airmaverick
1 Attachment(s)

I think color has been mentioned a couple of times in the dispute already, but I thought I
would provide an updated comparison.
Mame prior to 0.116 emulated "red" girders. An update from 0.116 onward changed the
emulation to "pink" girders (and more accurate to arcade)

Notes from the 0.116 Mame update say:

"MAME 0.116
Specific Contributions
couriersud commited a major Donkey Kong driver update:
Implemented discrete sound from schematics: dkong, radarscp
Implemented discrete background from schematics for radarscp and various effects:
blue to black to blue background
exact priorities
Grid will flip open and close, vertical flipping on hit.
Changed inputs for radarscp
Color generation from schematics (resistor mixer) for radarscp, dkong, dkongjr and dkong3"

I used a couple of snapshots from TGs stream of the BM 1.0472M score and the 1.0502M
score and compared that with Mame v0.86, v0.117, v0.195 and Chris Gleeds 0.9702M direct
feed footage.

As a fact the change in the Mame version is very clear from "red" to "pink" in v0.89 v v0.117.
Chris Gleeds direct feed arcade is a very clear "purple"
I note that obviously the Billy scores are "tapes of tapes of pc capture" etc. and are a little
hard to compare at this point. The 1.0472M tape is very "faded" and is down at the "grey" end
of the scale and I think has to be discounted.

The footage so far of Billy's 1.0502M score looks very "red" to me.

Interestingly on the RGB scale the 1.0502M, v0.89 are less than 100 on the Blue scale,
Exhibit A - 000846
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 846/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

while the
v0.117, v.0.195 and 0.9702M are greater than 100 on the Blue scale.

Attachment 53449

03-23-2018, 09:52 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by airmaverick

The footage so far of Billy's 1.0502M score looks very "red" to me.

I made note of this a few times in the live stream Jace hosted. Not only does Billy's recording
display MAME anomalies, but they are distinctly more red than when you look at Chris
Gleed's arcade captures. Chris's look have considerably more blue influence, making them
look quite purple.

03-24-2018, 03:48 AM
Godfather

What is the update on #GirderGate

Have we proven that Billys capture is beyond any shadow of a doubt not run on arcade
hardware?

03-24-2018, 03:54 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godfather

What is the update on #GirderGate
Have we proven that Billys capture is beyond any shadow of a doubt not run on arcade
hardware?

All of Billy's videos recovered in this dispute review by TG, as well as videos previously
posted to YouTube featuring the 1.04 and 1.05 score runs contain MAME transitions.
Extensive examples of arcade direct feed capture playback used for testing in this dispute do
not reflect any MAME transitions, but those outlined by Xelnia in his evidence package as
arcade transitions. I think many of us have examined YouTube recordings of arcade and
MAME, and noted that arcade playback contains arcade transitions, and that MAME
playback contains MAME

03-24-2018, 04:05 AM
The Evener

I should add that Xelnia's evidence package also contains footage of Billy's Big
Bang/IVGHOF announcement of his 1.06 million high score on Donkey Kong (where Billy is
Exhibit A - 000847
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 847/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

playing back a video of his 1.06 run at his table) which contains evidence of MAME
transitions for pie/cement factory. Subsequent to Xelnia's original post, other video recordings
of the announcement were identified by other witnesses, which confirmed the MAME pie
transition from their vantage, as well as additional footage that captured a MAME transition
for elevators.

03-24-2018, 04:10 AM
Godfather

Hmm i wonder if the girder finger appears only when the save state is used. Someone should
test this.

Jace mentioned there was an even transition or a odd transition. I wonder which transition
occurs after running from a save state. Has any one tested this?
#GirderGate

03-24-2018, 04:12 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godfather

Hmm i wonder if the girder finger appears only when the save state is used. Someone should
test this.

Jace mentioned there was an even transition or a odd transition. I wonder which transition
occurs after running from a save state. Has any one tested this?
#GirderGate

The finger is a product of how MAME loads the ROM. It has nothing to do with save states.

03-24-2018, 04:13 AM
sjh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godfather

What is the update on #GirderGate
Have we proven that Billys capture is beyond any shadow of a doubt not run on arcade
hardware?

Yes of course it's been proven. I think Jace is currently building a hermetically sealed lab
housing 1000 DK machines which AI will play endlessly and record footage. In 100 years our
great grand kids will collect the footage and then, if no finger girders are found in any of
them, TG will issue a preliminary statement that they are removing Billy's scores while they
repeat the experiment to verify the results.

People have been convicted for murder for far less evidence than has been presented here.

03-24-2018, 04:33 AM
RTM

Since Jace said during his marathon streaming session that the debate is about the score and
not the person, then in addition to the score likely being MAME (along with at least two other
performances), the likelihood of additional data manipulation is high due to the unusually
Exhibit A - 000848
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 848/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

skewed percentages of higher-point blue barrel smashes and other RNG indicators.

Meaning this escalates from simple cheating to blatant cheating, should the decision go in this
direction.

However, unless your usual gamer, this one also (not potentially...he did) abused his TG
authority to strong arm the rest of TG into not accepting world record scores from Abdner
Ashman ("Ms Pacman") and "Steve Wiebe ("Donkey Kong") on identical grounds that they
cheated.

Ironically, he accused Abdner because of statistics, citing that whereas Billy, Chris Ayra and
Rick Forthergill combined achieved a combined 8 "kill screens" of the game since inception
up to that point (2005) of which only a few were 8-kill screen performances, Abdner managed
to pull off 3 in-a-row, so they cried foul...and continued to do so even after Abdner's boardset
was scrutinized by an recognized industry expert (Spike from Lupine Systems) who provided
a painstakingly thorough technical review of Abdner's boardset (and Darren Harris' as well,
both of which I paid for our of my own pocket) which I shared with both Bill and Chris. Yet
they continued to cry foul.

As for Steve...you all know the KoK story, he was suspected of physical board manipulation
after Brian Kuh's visit revealed the infamous "gummy substance" which Bill/Kuh (and
possibly Chris as well, but it has been so many years I forget), citing their DK expertise,
stated that the position of this "substance" coupled with its physical properties could lead to
an impact on the clock thus giving Steve a physical advantage.

And while both of these instances where he cried "foul" (Adbner's and Steve's scores) are not
at the core of the score dispute, Bill did so while in the capacity of being a TG Board of
Directors member AND as a part owner of TG. In other words, this would be blatantly
egregious cheating and not merely "simple" cheating.

This, if a decision is made unfavourable to Bill as far as the score goes, merely taking the
score down does not seem to be"enough", in my opinion.

At par minimum his "DK Jr" score should also be suspect, and his "perfect Pacman" speed
run is already being separately challenged, but consideration for additional action on behalf of
TG may be warranted, if the initial score challenge outcome is unfavourable.

03-24-2018, 04:44 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

The gummy substance having an impact on the clock speed is a ridiculous notion. It doesn't
make sense from a technical standpoint. Knowing a little and thinking you know a lot is not a
good thing.

03-24-2018, 05:57 AM
Exhibit A - 000849
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 849/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

FBX

@ RTM,

I'd add to that list of the BS Billy pulled the now 'confessed' board swap video, which itself
was an attempt to deceive the public on a world record event. Had it not been for the
differences between the DKJ and DK boards, that video would still be touted as supportive to
his claims.

I know Jace has said in the stream a number of times that he's just focused on the scores
themselves when it concerns decision time, but you really have to consider the context of
everything that surrounded those scores being recorded in the first place: Bullying, lying,
cheating, and extremely poor sportsmanship. TG should not want ANY relations with that
kind of person. If what Todd Rogers did was enough to do a full ban and strip of all records,
Billy FAR surpasses stepping over that line.

03-24-2018, 06:34 AM
Hotrod6045

Unfortunately, removing the scores in question wouldn't be enough to those cheated out of the
ultimate recognition they deserved and never got.While it's vindication, it's never gonna be
the same as actually winning and the authority in charge recognizes it without any cheating or
rigging. I could possibly see a retroactive declaration of Wiebe having reached a million
points first but, sadly, it wouldn't take the pain away that Wiebe had to endure because he was
screwed over by Billy Mitchell and pre-Jace TG.

Double board cabinet, 8-way joystick, false claims of MAME, and gummy board were
excuses to delegitimize Steve Wiebe. At the very least, TG should consider enshrining the
scores into the DK records as a final recognition to the players that actually didn't play it on
MAME.

03-24-2018, 06:48 AM
YesAffinity

Just to touch on the color discussion, I wouldn't focus too much on that. I've got 2 cabs and
they both look different, despite how much I try to get them to look exactly the same. My
TKG4 blue cab produces an image with the more red girders. My TKG2 red cab produces an
image with the girders being more pink. Side note, I've capped and serviced everything in my
blue cab. My red cab is, to the best of my knowledge, factory original. The red cab gives me
the sense that the color is more true to how nintendo intended it. In addition to the pinker
girders, jumpman's complexion is closer to a flesh tone, whereas in the blue cab, it is ruddier.

In addition, the direct feed output has color pots/vr's in the chain. In the blue cab (970,200
run; mike's arcade inverter board with color adjustments), I can say for certain that blue is a
little bit overpowering, which accounts for the more purple hue of the girders. All of the
recent arcade direct feeds that I've posted in support of this discussion are from my red cab
(nintendo inverter board w/ color adjustments). I haven't scrutinized the colors of that one at
all, to say one color is maybe a little out of tune over another. In the case of the red cab
(nintendo inverter board), adjusting colors on the ninty inverter affect both the monitor and
the direct feed. So, I dialed it in for the best image at the monitor.

In addition, capture software and potentially other touch points have influence on the
appearance of the image, in the direct feed chain.

TL;DR - don't waste too much time on color anomalies. One cab right next to another
Exhibit with
A - 000850
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 850/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

have noticeable color variations. The direct feed chain will also impose some influence on the
colors that appear in the direct feed capture.

03-24-2018, 06:49 AM
YesAffinity

^I should also qualify, the comparison between the cabs is made with the same 2-board
TKG4-11 board set.

03-24-2018, 07:01 AM
YesAffinity

New capture footage below, using an old USB capture device. Similar to the Gigaware device
now being discussed. Not guaranteed to be identical, but close and the best I can do without
coming out of pocket.

The setup is: Arcade board -> Nintendo inverter board -> Two Bit Score Encoder ->
Composite output from TBS encoder -> Happauge WinTV PVR2 USB capture device -> PC

This device is capturing at 720 x 480 @ 29.97fps. I'm not going to sugar coat it, the quality is
terrible. BUT, we can see the obvious interlacing of the frames (hopefully that's the correct
term for joining of the 59.94 fields per second). Even with this, arcade transitions are clearly
visible and being captured.

Video available for download below. I do not want to upload to youtube because we all know
youtube will degrade the quality due to it being a 480i video. Hoping @Jace Hall can upload
for permanent archival purposes.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...BR?usp=sharing

Another interesting note: I've got 2 devices that don't seem to like the output of the TBS
encoder, one of them is my VCR. It will record only in black and white, from the composite
output of the TBS encoder. I am also able to replicate this on my plasma TV, with
manufacture date of 2004. I have troubleshot cables, wiring, connections, everything checks
out. Other devices don't have a problem with the producing the signal in color. Not sure what
to make of this, if anyone has any ideas, please chime in.

Lastly, I've also dug out an old PCI capture card, and put it in my Win XP machine. I'm trying
to get to a true 480p capture, to get closer to replicating what is believed to be on the
tapes/DVD.

A couple screen grabs, of the girder outro transition, from the above linked 480i capture:

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/24/29.97fps1.md.png

03-24-2018, 07:04 AM
YesAffinity

^Note: if you click through to the image, you can download it. BUT, the other images
contained in that album are NOT from this newly linked 480i video.

03-24-2018, 07:15 AM
FBX

Exhibit A - 000851
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 851/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Nice work there, Chris!

I should point out offhand that while I was collecting all the screen grabs of the girders on
Billy's 1.047 run, I had a look at about 10 rivet stages during the run and not a single one of
them showed a stagger-frame. It was instantly stacked from one frame to the next on every
case. Of course it doesn't provide 100% proof of anything because it's a 30fps video, but you
get the idea that a mid-frame would likely have slipped in there somewhere, but it never did.

03-24-2018, 08:09 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

RTM REPLY - agree completely. Worst case scenario (for Bill)...if the decision is
unfavourable...

-> Removal of ALL scores

-> Rescind all recognition including "First Perfect Pacman"
-> Petition NAMCO to withdraw "Player of the Century" award
-> Formal recognition of Steve Wiebe as 1st to reach 1M on "DK"

Absolute worst-case-scenario...ever see the scene in "Ten Commandments" when Pharoah

passes judgment on Moses ? Here's that quote, with one key word replaced...

Let the name of Billy MItchell be stricken from every book and tablet. Stricken from every
pylon and obelisk of Egypt. Let the name of Billy Mitchell be unheard and unspoken, erased
from the memory of man, for all time.

Now replace "pylon and obelisk of Egypt" with record book of Twin Galaxies, and "memory
of man" replaced with "memory of gamers". That would be the absolute worst-case scenario.

Again,,,IF the decision is unfavourable.

03-24-2018, 08:32 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Nice work there, Chris!

I should point out offhand that while I was collecting all the screen grabs of the girders on
Billy's 1.047 run, I had a look at about 10 rivet stages during the run and not a single one of
them showed a stagger-frame. It was instantly stacked from one frame to the next on every
Exhibit A - 000852
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 852/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

case. Of course it doesn't provide 100% proof of anything because it's a 30fps video, but you
get the idea that a mid-frame would likely have slipped in there somewhere, but it never did.

Even when I set my video processor to 24hz, which effectively bottlenecked the direct feed at
that point, ahead of PC capture, to 24fps, the transition frames are still there. At 30fps or
24fps, the capture will not be in sync with the 60.6hz output of the game board, but I will go
as far as to say it is IMPOSSIBLE for a direct feed to not capture at least some of those
signature transition frames over a 2+ hour period and with that many opportunities.

I just tried capturing from my TKG3 4-board stack, which has original "ladder cheat" code,
just for additional comparison. No noticeable differences. Transitional/signature arcade
frames are what we know them to be, from true arcade hardware.

I'm digging as deep as I'm able, here. Unfortunately that WinXP PCI card I was hoping to use
has come to a dead end. I can't find working drivers for it. :(

03-24-2018, 08:33 AM
YesAffinity

*Transitional/signature arcade frames are present and what we know them to be, from true
arcade hardware.

03-24-2018, 10:11 AM
francoisadt

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

Degradation is a possibility. They aren't new tape. Digital copies won't lose quality.

At post 1913, I have pointed this out but no reply if TG make an effort getting the original
digital copy, which is the source.

Quote:

So TG should ask for the original digital recording as recorded on the laptop while the game
was "proposedly" played
on the DK Machine.

If TG examine the VHS tapes it is a copy of what was recorded in the first place.

Who owns the laptop and can the laptop handed over to TG for examination?

03-24-2018, 10:12 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000853
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 853/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by francoisadt

At post 1913, I have pointed this out but no reply if TG make an effort getting the original
digital copy, which is the source.

The original PC is the computer running mame outputting to a VCR probably. They won't
give up that copy.

03-24-2018, 10:28 AM
Lukahna
Circumstantial evidence is not bad evidence

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I strongly agree. I'm pretty sure I remember Jace suggesting in the livestream that
"circumstantial evidence" would not be considered. Circumstantial evidence is not bad
evidence. In an actual court, a lot of things are considered circumstantial. Fingerprints or even
DNA at a crime scene, for instance, are circumstantial, yet can greatly strengthen (or even
win) a case.

Ignoring verifiable/falsifiable evidence relevant to invalid scores because it doesn't fall under
the laser-like focus of the original dispute, just seems silly. Xelnia presented the best evidence
known at the time; we've found more. Why ignore it?

Specifically, the RNG aspects have (I believe) been shown to have a very low probability (<<
1%?) of occurring by chance. Have not run the numbers myself (yet). While that is of course
not direct, 100% evidence that Billy cheated (he could have had a hell of a lucky streak,
though that is far less likely), it suggests (as you say, @RTM ) that it is more likely Billy used
save states or an otherwise not original DK cab. than previously thought. Nobody that I know
of is championing RNG as the smoking gun. Although, amusingly, a literal smoking gun
would also be circumstantial.

At the heart of circumstantial evidence is probability. In this dispute, I've heard of "truth"
spoken in absolute terms. Truth itself may indeed be black or white, but ascertaining that truth
is often a balance of probabilities. That's why we have "reasonable doubt". Therefore, any
piece of evidence that modifies the final probability of "did Billy cheat or not," is good
evidence, as far as I'm concerned.

03-24-2018, 10:28 AM
francoisadt

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

The original PC is the computer running mame outputting to a VCR probably. They won't
give up that copy.

No, I disgaree, my opinion that it was not a copy of MAME running playing back an INP file
becasue for this the "window" edges should have been visible where MAME runs as a
Exhibit A - 000854
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 854/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

container?

It was a pre-editted video file that is a video of the MAME game (INP) already played back.
The video was played streaming to the VCR.

03-24-2018, 10:31 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by francoisadt

No, I disgaree, my opinion that it was not a copy of MAME running playing back an INP file
becasue for this the "window" edges should have been visible where MAME runs as a
container?

It was a pre-editted video file that is a video of the MAME game (INP) already played back.
The video was played streaming to the VCR.

Yes, so the tape is the original medium. We are not going to get the original digital file from
them as it should not exist.

03-24-2018, 10:34 AM
starcrytas

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

At par minimum his "DK Jr" score should also be suspect

I started a dispute on the DK Jr. score about a month ago with a comparing transitions.
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...core-1-270-900

03-24-2018, 10:45 AM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

I'm digging as deep as I'm able, here. Unfortunately that WinXP PCI card I was hoping to use
has come to a dead end. I can't find working drivers for it. :(

Are there any labels on that card? Take a picture and post it here. Where did it come from.
Some Dell and HP desktops came with capture cards. These cards may not have a name on
them ... OEM, but still have some serial number. You can download drivers from their
website. This must be one of these pre-2009 analog cards.

03-24-2018, 11:00 AM
YesAffinity

It's a Sabrent TV-PCIRC card. I tracked down drivers for it the last time I used it, which was
probably 2 years ago by now. The Sabrent web site has a page for the driver download, but it
says the drivers are unavailable. If anyone happens to have this card and the install disk, or
maybe your google fu is just better than mine, it would be great to get this thing working.

Exhibit A - 000855
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 855/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/2..._063823.md.jpg
https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/2..._063815.md.jpg

03-24-2018, 11:27 AM
omega175

@YesAffinity :
Had a quick look. Lots of junk drive programs (these people should be whipped).
Got this:
https://www.driverguide.com/driver/d...iverid=1654947

It says it's Philips TV-PCIRC, but it's still made by Sabrent. At the end I was able to
download the 64MB file and it seems legit. Try this, if you cannot find anything else.

Also, try here:

http://members.driverguide.com/drive...brent+TV-PCIRC

If you can find out what computer company used these as OEM (not Philips), you can get the
driver from them.

03-24-2018, 11:35 AM
omega175

@YesAffinity :
Some interesting read here:

http://www.evillabs.net/index.php/Sabrent_TV-PCIRC

"If you have a different model of Sabrent TV-PCIRC card - well, good luck. They
rebadged pretty much anyone's overstock tuner card, so buyer beware.
The 'MPEG4' feature advertized on the box is software only. There is no hardware
MPEG support on the device."

"Encoder/PCI Bridge
Clearly labelled, it's a Philips SAA7130HL"

No wonder they were so *****.

03-24-2018, 11:49 AM
YesAffinity

03-24-2018, 12:10 PM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

I did find a driver package that installed and cleared the "unknown device" in device manager,
but no success getting video out of it. I'll check those suggestions. Dont want to muddy up the
Exhibit A - 000856
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 856/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

thread with side talk about a capture card that may or may not provide any results toward the
thread. Thanks all for the help.

Try their free version program:

https://www.drivermax.com/

I don't use them much, but they are legit, so no malware. It's a small program. Uninstall that
Philips driver and restart first.

03-24-2018, 02:02 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/2..._063823.md.jpg
https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/2..._063815.md.jpg

Failing all the above suggestions, try these driver packs. 100's of TV tuner card drivers. Might
get lucky.

XP 32 bit:

http://driverpacks.net/driverpacks/w...6/tvcard/10.05

Vista/7 32 bit:

http://driverpacks.net/driverpacks/w...6/tvcard/10.01

03-24-2018, 07:40 PM
dcq

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/2..._063823.md.jpg
https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/2..._063815.md.jpg

Driver seems to exist from site in the Internet Archive:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110106...RC_drivers.zip

03-25-2018, 12:57 AM
Scoops
2 Attachment(s) Exhibit A - 000857
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 857/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Not sure if this has been posted already but there is a video on youtube that shows the last 5
minutes of Mitchell's 1062 score. Although the quality is not ideal, the camera is far closer to
the tv screen than the other announcement videos.

It has girder transitions and the collapsing rivet board. https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=4lpbM1Fr3Gs There is also a little commentary from Mitchell for anyone doubting that this
is his game play.

Attachment 53529
Attachment 53530

03-25-2018, 01:23 AM
FBX

[QUOTE=Scoops;959432]Not sure if this has been posted already but there is a video on
youtube that shows the last 5 minutes of Mitchell's 1062 score. Although the quality is not
ideal, the camera is far closer to the tv screen than the other announcement videos.

It has girder transitions and the collapsing rivet board. https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=4lpbM1Fr3Gs There is also a little commentary from Mitchell for anyone doubting that this
is his game play.
[QUOTE]

Gee, what were the odds on there being a 3-girder transition in his 1.062 million score as
well?

Kiss that one goodbye too, Billy.

03-25-2018, 02:14 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

n there being a 3-girder transition in his 1.062 million score as well?

For what it's worth... The above video is a 30fps rendering of what was at one time a 60i
video (8mm, it is said). Despite the many reductions in quality, it is still possible to recognize
interlaced frames. With this capacity available, I was able to determine, to my satisfaction at
least, that the video of Donkey Kong being shown on the TV is once again 30fps.

My specific methodology was to gauge how far one of the bouncing things on the elevator
board moved downward during its plunge. I did this for Billy's 30fps scores, and then
compared this measurement to instances in the above video where the bouncing things were
visibly split between two interlaced fields. The gap was the same as with the 30fps video. Had
the video playing on the TV been Donkey Kong's proper 60fps, the gap would have been
recognizably halved.

03-25-2018, 02:31 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Exhibit A - 000858
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 858/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

It all really doesn't matter. When you frame advance that youtube footage at the 3:10 mark to
the girder transition, 3 girders are drawn on the screen, thus, MAME usage confirmed. We
were just fortunate Race's camcorder happened to catch it in action.

03-25-2018, 02:56 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

It all really doesn't matter.

Think I'll side with Jace on this one. Every piece of evidence has its place. Now we can glean,
from this frankly miserable snippet of video, both the three-girder transition and the continued
practice of 30fps renderings. The only thing they fixed between the 1.05M score and this one
was the screen rotation snafu. And one wonders how self-aware they were being when they
made that correction.

03-25-2018, 04:06 AM
Muerto
5 Attachment(s)
1.062 tape transitions etc

Did a frame by frame on all the transitions on the 1.062 tape.

Attachment 53544

Attachment 53545

Attachment 53546

Attachment 53547

Attachment 53548

03-25-2018, 05:36 AM
The Evener

Thanks for compiling that. We can now point to collective evidence of MAME usage for all
four stages of Billy's DK 1.06 million score - girders, rivets, elevators, conveyors (pie/cement
factory).

03-25-2018, 06:03 AM
Exhibit A - 000859
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 859/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

YesAffinity
1 Attachment(s)

The middle of the rivet transition being lighter than then the surrounding areas, in those
excerpts above, is interesting.

Attachment 53561

03-25-2018, 07:20 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

The middle of the rivet transition being lighter than then the surrounding areas, in those
excerpts above, is interesting.

I think you mean darker. It's just caused by the field blending of the previous frame and the
next frame. Note that all the girders are darkened at the same time in the middle of the
transition frame. You can find several examples of this in the 1.047 and 1.05 million videso
too, but they NEVER display the staggar whether it be field-blended or single frame.

03-25-2018, 07:52 AM
YesAffinity

I guess "more transparent" is how it appears to me. Just interesting it happens in the middle of
the screen. Typically, we're seeing that effect on one side of the screen or the other (left side
or right side, as the screen is oriented).

03-25-2018, 07:59 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

That's because in the case of this transition, the before and after frames contain the same
graphics on the sides, so you won't be able to see side fragmentation. You're only seeing the
middle part phase out because that's the only major change of graphics between those frames
on MAME.

03-25-2018, 08:07 AM
YesAffinity

Get ready for some more terrible video quality:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=14T...12ud2VNLyP5dBR

filename: dk_tkg4.ps

Thanks to @dcq for finding that archived driver. That's the one that ended up working. The
google fu is strong with this one.
Exhibit A - 000860
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 860/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Thanks to @omega175 . That tidbit about the card providing no hardware compression
helped me get over the hurdles with VLC, and finally getting it to display and capture to a
file.

This appears to be progressive. I specifically unchecked the deinterlacing option in VLC, and
playing around with a few different color space options, all but this one (I420) had the
appearance of the last video I posted, with fields clearly being blended. The only option for
framerate for this card is 29.97. And with this video, we see many of the telltale arcade
transition frames absent. But not all.

Anyway, it's there for anyone to scrutinize that wishes to. You'll have to download it. It's
320x240, so again I'm not bothering to upload to youtube and have it get chewed up even
worse by YT processing.

03-25-2018, 08:38 AM
RTM

POSSIBLE TG DECISIONS IN ASCENDING ORDER OF SEVERITY

1st - Inconclusive - score challenge ends with no action taken

2nd - Incomplete - additional scrutiny continues, decision goes beyond 10-day threshold

3rd - Challenge accepted - score removed BUT earlier "live" score replaces current score

4th - Challenge accepted - score removed and not replaced with earluer "live" score

At this point, actions of Severity #4 plus...

5th - Escalation of "Donkey Kong Junior" and "Fastest Perfect Pacman" challenges

6th - Additional score challenges in addition to other titles are launched ("Burgertime",
"Centipede", "Ms Pacman" and "Perfect Pacman")

7th (A) - TG decides to remove ALL of Billy's scores without exception

7th (B) - TG decides to remove ALL of Billy's scores without exception PLUS Billy is
banned for life

Exhibit A - 000861
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 861/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

At this point, actions of Severity #7 plus...

8th (A) - TG formally un-recognizes "Perfect Pacman" performance from 1999

8th (B) - TG formally and retroactively acknowledges Steve Wiebe as 1st million on "Donkey
Kong"

8th (C) - both 8th (A) and 8th (B)

9th - TG petitions NAMCO to rescind "Player of the Century" accolade...coincidentally 9th as

in 9th key pattern

03-25-2018, 09:28 AM
CWK
2 Attachment(s)

A couple snaps from Chris' Google drive upload. Clearly showing arcade transitions in my
opinion
Attachment 53567
Attachment 53568

03-25-2018, 10:05 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

POSSIBLE TG DECISIONS IN ASCENDING ORDER OF SEVERITY

1st - Inconclusive - score challenge ends with no action taken

2nd - Incomplete - additional scrutiny continues, decision goes beyond 10-day threshold

3rd - Challenge accepted - score removed BUT earlier "live" score replaces current score

4th - Challenge accepted - score removed and not replaced with earluer "live" score

At this point, actions of Severity #4 plus...

Exhibit A - 000862
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 862/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

5th - Escalation of "Donkey Kong Junior" and "Fastest Perfect Pacman" challenges

6th - Additional score challenges in addition to other titles are launched ("Burgertime",
"Centipede", "Ms Pacman" and "Perfect Pacman")

7th (A) - TG decides to remove ALL of Billy's scores without exception

7th (B) - TG decides to remove ALL of Billy's scores without exception PLUS Billy is
banned for life

At this point, actions of Severity #7 plus...

8th (A) - TG formally un-recognizes "Perfect Pacman" performance from 1999

8th (B) - TG formally and retroactively acknowledges Steve Wiebe as 1st million on "Donkey
Kong"

8th (C) - both 8th (A) and 8th (B)

9th - TG petitions NAMCO to rescind "Player of the Century" accolade...coincidentally 9th as

in 9th key pattern

I believe 8th (C) should happen from TG for certain. The 9th degree black eye might elicit
legal action from Billy, though he fully deserves being removed from Namco's list based on
everything that's come to light over the years and recent months.

03-25-2018, 10:09 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

9th - TG petitions NAMCO to rescind "Player of the Century" accolade...coincidentally 9th as

in 9th key pattern

all other possibilites seem quite possible, also since anything is possible i'm not arguing just
looking for understanding. another disclaimer i nkow its none of my business but i do like
understanding as much as i can about tg which is why my question if i'm missing something
here that leads to this possibility.

I understood tg contacting guiness over dragster, tg and guinness are partners. I dont
Exhibit A - 000863
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 863/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

understand any reason to contact namco. Certainly TG wouldnt contact every convention billy
goes to or the makes of every film he was in or will be in. This isnt me defending billy, nor is
it me saying TG shouldnt, just trying to understand if there's something I'm missing that
would make TG care what namco does.

03-25-2018, 10:19 AM
Hotrod6045

NAMCO might pay attention to news related to the gaming industry (and that of this dispute
since it's a major story) but I don't think they'd listen to TG requesting revocation of their
honor to Billy. I believe NAMCO and the gaming hall of fame would rather do their own
investigations and make their own decisions instead of doing it based on what TG asks.
Personally, TG would do better to stick to their own revocation of Billy's scores and not
involve outside sources by asking revocation from other record keepers.

Regardless if these scores are revoked or not and if Billy gets a ban or not, Steve Wiebe
should be recognized by TG as the first to get to a million points first.

03-25-2018, 10:20 AM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Based on the livestream from a few days ago, Jace wouldn't go beyond removing all of Billy's
scores and banning him from TG. Jace said he doesn't care about proper recognition or
anything like that, just whether or not scores on TG are valid or not.

03-25-2018, 10:43 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Except that they removed all of Todd's scores because they didn't know which of them to
trust. They are in kind of the same board here with Billy. All three million + DK scores are
MAME, which means a long history of cheating. So at what point can they say "Well we
know this score he didn't cheat in, and it was only around here he started cheating"? Nah,
gotta throw it all out, just like with Todd.

03-25-2018, 11:12 AM
Hotrod6045

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Exhibit A - 000864
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 864/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I can say the last public DK score that Billy did in public (in 1999) is where TG could
stop...for that game. The last DK Jr score Billy has is under dispute and so is his Perfect
Pacman scores (5 hr 30 min time under fire). I don't know what else could be called to
question but at least they can stop at the 1999 score for Billy's DK records.

03-25-2018, 11:45 AM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

That's what I said... The farthest Jace will go is removing all Billy's scores and banning him
from TG. Jace said he isn't going to single anyone out for recognition because that's beyond
the scope of adjudication. His words.

03-25-2018, 01:07 PM
RTM

I disagree. Should Bill's scores be removed, TG has a professional obligation...outside of the

scope of the score challenge...to formally and retroactively recognize Steve Wiebe as the first
player to officially reach 1M on "Donkey Kong" (arcade).

Bear in mind, Billy used his weight as a TG Board of Directors member to influence the
outcome of Steve's earlier submissions, all of which beat his much earlier 874K score from
the 1980's, and the last of which (1.006M) would have made Steve the first to break the 1M
mark. That is an egregious abuse of authority by a TG official and as such TG has a
professional obligation to formally acknowledge Steve as the first to break 1M points.

My opinion, whether current TG management agrees or not.

03-25-2018, 01:11 PM
GibGirl

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I disagree. Should Bill's scores be removed, TG has a professional obligation...outside of the
scope of the score challenge...to formally and retroactively recognize Steve Wiebe as the first
player to officially reach 1M on "Donkey Kong" (arcade).

Bear in mind, Billy used his weight as a TG Board of Directors member to influence the
outcome of Steve's earlier submissions, all of which beat his much earlier 874K score from
the 1980's, and the last of which (1.006M) would have made Steve the first to break the 1M
Exhibit A - 000865
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 865/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

mark. That is an egregious abuse of authority by a TG official and as such TG has a

professional obligation to formally acknowledge Steve as the first to break 1M points.

My opinion, whether current TG management agrees or not.

I would agree. I'd also say that, as part of that recognition, that TG apologize to Steve Wiebe
for the situation. Because while the site is under new management, it's still the Twin Galaxies
organization and brand. It's not Jace's fault, but it is his responsibility.

03-25-2018, 01:34 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

My opinion, whether current TG management agrees or not.

Personally, I agree with you. I was just repeated what Jace said in the stream.

03-25-2018, 02:22 PM
RTM

Well regardless of the outcome, I'd like to be the first one to apologize to Steve.

I was, at the time, Walter's chief referee at Twin Galaxies, and I let information coming from
experts on the title (Billy, Chris and Brian) steer the decision towards caution and thus
blocking the release/acknowledgment of the Steve's score...and that's on top of choosing to
believe the explanation of what the "gummy substance" would do to the boardset as explained
by these three experts.

Steve never got his proper and timely recognition as the first to break 1M on the title and I
was at the heart of the decision, and while the decision was not entirely my own, I was a
deciding-maker.

I did, early on, argue with Walter that Steve was the one who took the time to submit the
score regardless that Bill later stated he had done it on tape a full year earlier. Steve also
showed up at ACAM in 2005 whereas his rival was only "represented" by a VHS tape which,
as it turns out, may also be a MAME performance. But the postponement of the score
announcement, for cautionary reasons based on inaccurate technical advice and the spectre of
tampering by another gamer, denied Steve his formal recognition by TG.

Whether Billy's score(s) might be removed or not, Steve did it first. I firmly stand by that, and
I apologize to Steve, as a former TG official, publicly on this very forum, regardless of the
outcome.
Exhibit A - 000866
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 866/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-25-2018, 02:29 PM
Snowflake

yes, steve's shafting is absolultey twin galaxies business. i'm not sure if every wronged player
of every score can be adressed, and it bothers me a little one game (donkey kong) is somehow
treated as more important than the others, but i will acknowledge perception is reality. first to
a million on dk likely meant more to him than highest score on some obscure title meant to
others (not to diminish the other scores), and certainly led to more public high fives that were
missed out on.

03-25-2018, 03:42 PM
The Evener

I was curious about how widely TG's recognition of the first million score on DK for Billy
Mitchell was acknowledged. I assumed that such milestones were really for the statisticians,
but if TG provided formal acknowledgement through a press release or some kind of event,
then I agree that TG may need to clarify the historical record when it releases its decision.

I did find this 2003 Washington Post article discussing Wiebe's achievement of claiming the
world record on Donkey Kong at 947,200 points. An interesting passage is attributed to Billy:

"Mitchell, 37, says he counts his scores only if they're played in a public venue, and he won't
say if he thinks he can beat his cross-country competitor. He did say that he's planning
something big and unprecedented in the video-game world as a response to Wiebe's win."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.e49344d15814

03-25-2018, 04:37 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.e49344d15814

So does that mean that he doesn't count any of his 1M+ scores...?

And I guess a series of MAME-generated runs passed off as arcade would be big and
unprecedented.

03-25-2018, 06:17 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

I was curious about how widely TG's recognition of the first million score on DK for Billy
Mitchell was acknowledged

Exhibit A - 000867
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 867/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM REPLY - Unless I am mistaken, once TG decided to postpone announcing Steve's

1.006M score, Bill changed tactics and "rescinded" his 1.014M submission...even though he
had already announced it AS the first million score on DK in Lincoln Center in Aug/04.

TG never formally announced, as far as I recall, Billy or Steve as breaking the 1M mark with
those scores. I had planned to announce both but that was changed after the Kuh visit to
Wiebe's house. But, post 2006, I never consistently paid attention to what TG announced at
that point.

If someone is aware of an announcement about the 1M scores in the 2004-2006 range on the
TG forum, please provide a link as my recollection would then be incorrect.

03-25-2018, 06:29 PM
paramylodon

Since Facebook is where Team Billy like to post their arguments, I check it from time to time.
Today David Race posted a "new argument" for Team Billy:

Quote:

Since the manual for the Sanyo monitor says the vertical (V) refresh rate should be
60 Hz (+/- 5 Hz). Why was it deemed necessary to change the refresh rate from 60
Hz to 60.6 Hz in later versions of MAME? At the same time they were listing DK as
60 Hz they were showing games like Jr. Pac-Man as 60.606060.
It seems the "claim" that Billy or someone used a "cheat" in MAME to adjust the
refresh rate to match the arcade is without merit. The data available at the time
showed the arcade refresh rate to be 60 Hz, not 60.60..Hz Such a claim has been
made without any evidence whatsoever. It appears to be a mark of desperation,
where things are purposely manipulated in order to prove what one already believes.

Source: https://www.facebook.com/david.race....77364015622345

And here's what looks like the discussion that led to the above argument:
https://www.facebook.com/david.race....77364015622345

03-25-2018, 07:16 PM
YesAffinity

The mame notes list Donkey Kong vsync as 60.4862

https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob...vers/dkong.cpp

Found this interesting note in the mame command line documentation:

-[no]refreshspeed / -[no]rs
Allows MAME to dynamically adjust the gameplay speed such that it does
not exceed the slowest refresh rate for any targeted monitors in your
system. Thus, if you have a 60Hz monitor and run a game that is
actually designed to run at 60.6Hz, MAME will dynamically change the
speed down to 99% in order to prevent sound hiccups or other
undesirable side effects of running at a slower refresh rate. The
default is OFF (-norefreshspeed).
Exhibit A - 000868
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 868/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I'm not sure when this command was implemented. It is not present in mame.ini as of mame
.116. I didn't poke around beyond that. BUT, given DK's vsync is established as 60.4862,
regardless of what a manual for the physical hardware says (which, by the way, lists refresh
rate as 60hz +-5hz), it seems that in order to avoid sound anomalies within MAME, at least
for playback, it would be necessary to set the game speed to 99%...at which speed we know
that the girder finger appears.

Curious if you were to play and record an .inp with no cheats, speed modifications, etc. and
verify that the finger girder isn’t present. And then playback at 99% and confirm that it will
be.

03-25-2018, 07:22 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY -
If someone is aware of an announcement about the 1M scores in the 2004-2006 range on the
TG forum, please provide a link as my recollection would then be incorrect.

Following our exchange, I located a TG poster that commemorates the first million point
score on DK in August 2004. In relation to the background you mentioned, and in keeping
with another website I read where it mentioned that TG wanted to keep Billy in the running
for the first million point score, TG split the difference and recognized both Billy and Steve at
the same time. In this vein, it's arguable that the current TG administration doesn't have to
branch out into this territory when providing its decision on this dispute review.

From the poster:

Attachment 53599

For additional reference on the 1.05 million score, I located a TG press release authored by
Walter Day, confirming that Senior Referee Todd Rogers was on hand to witness the event:

"The accomplishment, backed up by video tape of his gameplay, provides further supporting
evidence of his record," explains Walter Day, Chief Scorekeeper at Twin Galaxies and editor
of Twin Galaxies' Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records. "After two top
Twin Galaxies referees-- all experts at Donkey Kong -- have reviewed his tape, we will
publish the highlights of his accomplishment on the Twin Galaxies website at
www.twingalaxies.com."

https://web.archive.org/web/20071111...x?c=19&id=1465

03-25-2018, 07:27 PM
Snowflake
Exhibit A - 000869
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 869/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Since Facebook is where Team Billy like to post their arguments, I check it from time to time.
Today David Race posted a "new argument" for Team Billy:

Source: https://www.facebook.com/david.race....77364015622345

And here's what looks like the discussion that led to the above argument:
https://www.facebook.com/david.race....77364015622345

the logic hurts to read, but its not the different than what i've seen in the past when you think
about it. Rather than showing a single example of an arcade drawing like billy's run, they just
claim billy wouldnt have used mame for whatever reason -- which of course even if they're
right still leaves billy's screen unexplained. even if not mame, its certainly not arcade.

Remember, at one point they thought the claim was billy had a mame machine in the arcade
and argued it would make no sense to do that.
now the argument is it would make no sense to set mame at 60.60 therefore billy must not
have

look, i dont care if they only way to get billy's scren is to refresh 40.4bx7x (letters thrown in
to make a point, not a type). If no arcade can make billy's screens, but mame under some
obscure settings can, that demonstrates billy used mame under those obscure settings. Why he
would use those settings, while an interesting question, doesnt change the fact that he did use
those settings. Whos to say why billy does what he does? If david wants to claim it makes no
sense for billy to have set refresh to 60.60 well then i'll counter it made no sense for billy to
make a fool of himself on the east side dave show. Billy does things that dont make sense.
The fact it was foolish for billy to do so is hardly a proof that billy didnt do it. I think we can
all agree team bllly behaved foolishly, thats not under debate. The clam that billy wouldnt
have done the things he did simply because its ridiculous only further shows just how
ridiculous his team is.

03-25-2018, 11:22 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

From the poster:

"Whereas, we the undersigned, assembled at the 2004 Classic Gaming Expo, do hereby
proclaim the Million-Point-Donkey-Kong game to be the class gaming feat of the 21st
Century, and thereby honor Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe for being the first gamers in
history to achieve this landmark accomplishment which will be recognised by the Twin
Exhibit A - 000870
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 870/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Galaxies' Official Vieo Game & Pinball Book of World Records."

Attachment 53599

For additional reference on the 1.05 million score, I located a TG press release authored by
Walter Day, confirming that Senior Referee Todd Rogers was on hand to witness the event:

https://web.archive.org/web/20071111...x?c=19&id=1465

RTM REPLY - Guess again...this poster was never actually released or presented signed to
the gaming public because the 1M scores were never formally recognized by TG...see
Walter's own words below...

https://www.twingalaxies.com/archive.../t-118437.html

On Friday night, August, 20, 2004, the Classic Gaming Expo held its
annual pre-event banquet, honoring the gaming celebrities and Expo-
supporters who were on hand for the festivities. At that banquet, Walter
Day took the podium to talk about Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe and their
rivalry to be the first player to reach 1 million points on Donkey Kong in a public setting.
Walter Day presented the posters to the audience at that time and
explained that the posters were to be signed and awarded to either player that reached 1
million points during the weekend. The posters were to be jointly signed and
awarded by the CGE and Twin Galaxies. Interestingly, neither player reached 1
million points during the weekend and neither player received a copy of the poster.

Why is this Poster Important?

The poster was created as expression of friendliness, an attempt to foster
friendly interactions between Billy and Steve, a situation contrary to the
later interactions covered by the movie. Also, it shows Billy reaching out
to Steve - also contrary to the plot of the movie. Plus,it shows that Billy
and Steve did meet in perseon to play Donkey Kong together.
Interestingly, it is important to note that the poster was going to be
signed by TG and the CGE staff only if either of the players reached 1 million points
while at the event.

If the posters had been created to honor the two players for scores already achieved prior to
the event, then the posters would have been signed and presented during the CGE banquet
held on Friday night, August 20, 2004. However, because the posters were
intended as rewards for scores achieved during the CGE 2K4 event --
during a head-to-head rivalry, they were not presented during the ceremony. This is
because Billy and Steve had to earn the posters by reaching 1 million points during the course
of the weekend. This shows that Billy and Steve played each other in direct
Exhibit A - 000871
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 871/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

competition - contrary to the stated plot of the "King of Kong" movie.

As stated earlier, neither player owns a copy of this poster because they were not
distributed, since neither reached 1 million points during the CGE 2K4. And, during the
course of the weekend, no authentic arcade Donkey kong machine was
available, so the two of them had to switch off back and forth while
playing on an ArcadePc home emulation cabinet.

03-25-2018, 11:24 PM
RTM

BTW, take special note of that last part I copied...they were playing on a home emulation
unit...likely MAME, something Billy said he never played. D'oh !!

03-25-2018, 11:48 PM
FBX

So the argument from team Billy now is the 60.6Hz would have never been set because they
didn't know any better. Keep in mind that completely ignores the fact that the you get the
EXACT same finger girder from the 99% playback speed, and as such, all versions of MAME
do this going back to 2001 (and may be earlier, but that's the earliest I could run on my
computer).

Lets also keep in mind that this transition frame doesn't exist on arcade hardware. So what's
going on is they are picking apart speculation on the WAY Billy used MAME, not the FACT
that he used MAME. We'll never know Billy's setup when he used MAME because he'd never
spill the beans on that. What we do know is his tapes have frames that only appear in MAME
and not the original board. They've yet to come up with verifiable explanation for that
because they can't. All they can do is try to pick apart speculation on Billy's MAME setup.
What they can't pick apart are the MAME transitions being different than arcade hardware,
and his tapes matching MAME and not the arcade.

03-26-2018, 12:11 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

So the argument from team Billy now is the 60.6Hz would have never been set because they
didn't know any better.

I think at this point it would be very important to start documenting all of the instances where
Billy et al gave a little ground by way of changing their story. Preferably as a timeline. There
were many. The validity of the tapes. The way the feed was recorded. The legitimacy of the
board swap video. Whether MAME was used or not. Fuel for the eventual documentary on
this whole mess. Anyone who watches that future video will need to know about each
instance of backpedaling, and how they always came shortly after the evidence for each case
reached critical mass. There would of course be an unavoidable conclusion to be drawn about
the trustworthiness of these people.

People more or less expect a fabricated video to be created at some point. I expect this video
to be shown only briefly and never provided for close scrutiny, meaning it will exist only to
satisfy Billy's base. Therefore I take considerable solace in the fact that the eventual de-

Exhibit A - 000872
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 872/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

legitimization of his scores on TG will not care one whit about "evidence" provided afterâ€‹
the dispute was opened.

03-26-2018, 03:34 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Absolutely true. The evidence provided by Xelnia is based on the argument/conclusion that
Billy's million plus scores - 1.04, 1.05, and 1.06 million - were not performed on an arcade
machine as claimed by Billy at the time of submission, but with MAME. The key evidence to
his claim is the verifiable differences between how stage transitions are drawn/rendered on an
actual arcade game versus different versions of MAME. The dispute review is full to bursting
with analysis and testable evidence confirming that these differences exist, and that upon a
review of the transitions contained in an arcade game versus MAME game, the screen
transitions recorded in Billy's game are MAME. TG members also recently confirmed that all
relevant versions of MAME that could have been used for Billy's MAME game are capable of
rendering the "finger girder" MAME signature found on all of his tapes.

It is safe to say that those people who identify themselves first and foremost as Billy
supporters (evidence be damned) will never accept the evidence presented in this thread, no
matter how extensive and repeatable it is. Even Billy's recent confession and confirmation
(thanks to George Riley's question) that the board swap was staged - with the clear intent to
deceive the public that it was a real-time swap immediately prior to Billy's DK Junior record
as additional supporting evidence is his "live" arcade play - will not cause them to question
their blind faith in Billy.

03-26-2018, 04:01 AM
The Evener

RTM, that's an interesting account from Walter Day. It's interesting that Billy produced the
poster.

Despite Walter's account (curiously rendered in the third person), I invite you again to read
the poster - the inscription makes no mention of any condition of competition weekend, and
on its face is a formal recognition of the first million point scores. If indeed signed and
awarded that weekend, Steve or Billy would have walked away with a poster that

Exhibit A - 000873
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 873/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

acknowledged them both as the first million scores. It appears that the plan provided by
Walter may not have been the original plan.

03-26-2018, 07:07 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

BTW, take special note of that last part I copied...they were playing on a home emulation
unit...likely MAME, something Billy said he never played. D'oh !!

I believe Billy's recent statement was somethin to the effect of "I've never played on
MAME...at least not knowingly." Maybe he didn't know. Just like he didn't know he was
playing on MAME for the 1.0xM runs. :)

03-26-2018, 07:14 AM
Dave Hawksett

The efforts and contributions by members during this investigation have been outstanding.
We are nearly at the bottom of this but please keep posting evidence, analyses and historical
recollection.

I have said this before but believe it is worth repeating that a dispute of this nature would be
extremely difficult were it not for the massive amount of support from so many people.

03-26-2018, 07:55 AM
***PL***

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

The mame notes list Donkey Kong vsync as 60.4862

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is NOT true. That statement is referring to a Donkey King Junior PCB layout.

In any event, I double checked the latest VSYNC refresh rates for the four parent ROMs...

dkong: 60.606061 Hz as of MAME 0.116

dkong3: 60.606061 Hz as of MAME 0.117
dkongjr: 60.606061 Hz as of MAME 0.117
radarscp: 60.606061 Hz as of MAME 0.116

03-26-2018, 08:11 AM
YesAffinity

^my bad. Curious why there is no board layout for any of the other games covered in that
documentation? That's more of a rhetorical question, but if someone knows the answer of the
top of their head, I'm interested.
Exhibit A - 000874
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 874/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

At any rate, at what point was DK changed from 60hz to 60.6hz? I checked version .79,
release date of 28 Jan 2004, and the info screen showed 60hz.

03-26-2018, 08:21 AM
***PL***

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

At any rate, at what point was DK changed from 60hz to 60.6hz?

As mentioned earlier, the dkong VSYNC was corrected starting with MAME 0.116 and
explains why the girder "finger" doesn't appear with default settings prior to that version.

03-26-2018, 08:28 AM
YesAffinity

And was the reason for changing it due to sound anomalies occuring at 60hz?

03-26-2018, 08:31 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett

The efforts and contributions by members during this investigation have been outstanding.
We are nearly at the bottom of this but please keep posting evidence, analyses and historical
recollection.

I have said this before but believe it is worth repeating that a dispute of this nature would be
extremely difficult were it not for the massive amount of support from so many people.

hey dave,
About 9 days ago jace said dispute would be finished in 10 days? is that still the case? fyi,
tone is tough, not being snippy, just curious. People have been getting more and more good
info to make the case even more solid than it already is, so i dont think a small extension
could be legitimately faulted, just wondering is all.

03-26-2018, 09:38 AM
DadsGlasses

I assume we are waiting for the Cage Match Question to be answered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett

While there are some who want this dispute closed already, we sincerely appreciate the
patience shown by Twin Galaxies members in this case. In the recent live stream Jace
explained what we are doing next in order to leave no stone unturned.
Exhibit A - 000875
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 875/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The efforts and contributions by members during this investigation have been outstanding.
We are nearly at the bottom of this but please keep posting evidence, analyses and historical
recollection.

I have said this before but believe it is worth repeating that a dispute of this nature would be
extremely difficult were it not for the massive amount of support from so many people.

03-26-2018, 10:15 AM
***PL***

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

And was the reason for changing it due to sound anomalies occuring at 60hz?

Yes, that is possible, but not sure if that's the primary reason. Around that time (starting with
MAME 0.113u2), Vsync was checked and corrected for all early MAME games. Several
games were switched to 60.606061 Hz.

In the case of Donkey Kong, prior to 0.116, sound was emulated using DAC and sound
samples, and starting with 0.116 discrete sound was implemented, but sound issues remained
until at least 0.122

03-26-2018, 10:51 AM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

During the stream on the 22nd, Jace said the dispute should be finished in 10 days. It sounds
like he "reset the clock" on the 10 days thing. I'd expect a final decision by the end of the
week, barring some new piece of legitimate evidence.

03-26-2018, 10:57 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

yeah i noticed that too, i didnt know though if he speaking casually and just repeating the 10
day window mentioned before, or if he was resetting the timeline. In a long stream i accept
verbal slips can happen. Can we get confirmation if that deadline has been reset? or if it even
still exists at all?
Exhibit A - 000876
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 876/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-26-2018, 12:24 PM
Hotrod6045

I think 10 days was more or less a tentative deadline just in case of a surprise twist.

Then again, if we are waiting for 10 days to be applied via a business day schedule, it might
be a while on that note.

03-26-2018, 02:14 PM
FBX

I think all they are doing now is collecting all the test data from the arcade hardware into the
Two-Bit converter recordings. Since they have Billy's tech on record as claiming to have
exclusively used it for the direct capture, it makes it easy for them to test what exactly
happens with the arcade feed from that device in comparison to Billy's MAME tapes.

03-26-2018, 03:09 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

I think 10 days was more or less a tentative deadline just in case of a surprise twist.

Then again, if we are waiting for 10 days to be applied via a business day schedule, it might
be a while on that note.

Yes it was 10 business days, as we can't do certain things through the weekends. With that
being said, the point is that we are very close to coming to a decision as we review and
confirm/invalidate as much of the presented evidence as we comprehensively can.

03-26-2018, 03:33 PM
Mitch Mitchell
No rush

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

No rush, it's done when it's done; accuracy is worth it. Thank you for all the concise
hardwork.

03-26-2018, 04:41 PM
Prophecyrob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Exhibit A - 000877
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 877/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The court of public opinion is in. From discussing this at Funspot recently the 100% response
was that Billy cheated. It seems the arcade community has seen the evidence and knows
enough about arcade hardware vs MAME to realize we were duped.

Of course there will be a small group who remains BM nut hangers....and it appears they
(Robert, Richie, Triforce, etc) are being lumped in as enablers and are gonna sink with the
ship.

To be honest it almost doesn’t matter what verdict TG comes to cuz the opinions of the retro
gamers are made up.

03-26-2018, 04:41 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

RTM, that's an interesting account from Walter Day. It's interesting that Billy produced the
poster.

RTM REPLY - I was not part of the group who planned the event or designed the poster so I
am reading it as is just the way you are. But I have to imagine that if Walter made the forum
post that he did, then he did provide his insight as to the original intent, poster verbiage aside.

Plans however do not always go as intended, and in some cases a plan formulates when there
was none to begin with, as is the case at ACAM 2005. It was only on Sunday of that event,
the day after the 1.047M tape was revealed to the masses at ACAM just 20-30 feet from
where Steve scored 985K live, that Walter made the announcement about Billy intending to
pay $1K if anyone could break 1M and $10K if they could break the score on the tape.

We will never know for sure one way or the other, but this appearance of being
"magnanimous" could just have been a face-saving P.R. maneuver. It's just a matter of which
you choose to believe at this point.

03-26-2018, 04:47 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

To be honest it almost doesn’t matter what verdict TG comes to cuz the opinions of the retro
gamers are made up.

Exhibit A - 000878
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 878/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

RTM REPLY - to be fair, not all retro-gamers are "Team Billy" or even "pro-Billy". I, for
one, am not.

I'm not going to hammer away at people who choose to believe Bill even in light of what
evidence has been presented thus far. People are free to drink whichever Kool Aid they want.

03-26-2018, 04:50 PM
Prophecyrob

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - to be fair, not all retro-gamers are "Team Billy" or even "pro-Billy". I, for
one, am not.

I'm not going to hammer away at people who choose to believe Bill even in light of what
evidence has been presented thus far. People are free to drink whichever Kool Aid they want.

I was referring to Robert Childs in my comment, not you RTM. I like all you have brought to
this discussion and has been enlightening.

03-26-2018, 05:47 PM
Robert.F

If it is done right it is done in time.

03-26-2018, 09:22 PM
Dwayne Richard
fabricated history

I don't think the majority of audience understands the role the king of kong played in all of
this Donkey kong bs. At one point weibe was innocent and naive but he is as much involved
in the bs as bill in a different way. They signed their life rights away for a major motion
picture remake before it was even released.

Weibe crying was staged monday after everyone left the funspot just as the kuh putting bill's
tape up for public display. Brian thought he was gonna get paid like weibe and bill, saunders
and walter did up front.

Todd, brian and alpiger were contingent contracts on when the production budget and time
frame was set. The other's have been on the clock for the past 10 years getting more and more
increment checks on the total pay out the contracts they signed warrant.

They cannot tell the truth about anything or the will be sued by newline pictures.

No one knew weibe was gonna be there. All those people who don't know what happened
have opinion's not based in reality. Weibe lied to me a number of times as well as robert in his
submission's. He originally said the 1006 was a ddk but we know it wasn't, but it was the one
he used the 8 way. 5 other submission's previous no 8 way why did he switch for that
submission.

You can check all the dvd's alpiger sell's he never submitted a score on the same board twice.
He said in the doc he only had two boards the ddk and a dk that didn't work. When perry and
brian went to see him he had a pile of dk boards which goes along to match the various
submission's.
Exhibit A - 000879
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 879/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The first score that should be recognized is the live performance of 1000300 not the tape
submission's. I told steve a number of times that he can play but the lies are what keep me on
his ass. He knew they were gonna ignore tim szcerby he was in on the the plot as well as
Walter and Billy. His lying about the break-in that never happened. His standard dumb
founded answer the movie represents accurately what happened which is total bull****. He
mentioned the king of kong 2 is supposed to be made which i m not sure if it is doc format or
the feature film that was originally planned when newline bought their life rights. Getting a
score and using people to get ahead is a character flaw that invalidates your trival skill on a
video game. I would say that to the felons in the crowd and the liars who are cashing checks.

They are still getting paid and don't really give a **** about the truth. Now that bill is caught
walter and steve need to be exposed in this bull**** story. Weibe was gonna come to the
galaga event i glad he ain't no one wants him there it was part of my contract no weibe no
donkey kong!

dwayne

03-26-2018, 11:08 PM
Welp

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwayne richard

They cannot tell the truth about anything or the will be sued by newline pictures.

The first score that should be recognized is the live performance of 1000300 not the tape
submission's. I told steve a number of times that he can play but the lies are what keep me on
his ass. He knew they were gonna ignore tim szcerby he was in on the the plot as well as
Walter and Billy. His lying about the break-in that never happened. His standard dumb
Exhibit A - 000880
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 880/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

founded answer the movie represents accurately what happened which is total bull****. He
mentioned the king of kong 2 is supposed to be made which i m not sure if it is doc format or
the feature film that was originally planned when newline bought their life rights. Getting a
score and using people to get ahead is a character flaw that invalidates your trival skill on a
video game. I would say that to the felons in the crowd and the liars who are cashing checks.

dwayne

I really don't get your hatred of Steve Wiebe. I don't know Steve other than his appearance in
King of Kong - but I have no reason to think he's a bad person. Should he have had some
scores disqualified? Not me to say. But this is what I do know, to the best of my knowledge:

1. Steve was DQ'ed for using DDK boards. I understand they're still DQ'ed. That's fine. But to
my knowledge, no one has actually found a gameplay advantage from a DDK board.
2. Steve used an 8-way in at least one of his submissions. I understand that is not allowed in
the current set of rules. But to my understanding (not being a DK player), the possible gain
from using an 8-way is marginal. If you use it perfectly, you can get 20-30k extra points. But
(again, to my limited understanding) it is also risky, as not all barrels could be steered, and at
the time Steve Wiebe was playing it was not really understood if an 8-way joystick could
actually give you an advantage.

So, let's say you want to DQ some of his scores in the name of competitive equity. That's fine
- again, not really something I'm terribly interested in deciding. But is he a cheater, or a bad
person? It doesn't seem like any of his breaches are really so significant as to say that they
were deliberately done in order to gain an advantage over other players.

Other than that, it seems like a lot of anger of Tim Szcerby and whatnot. Yeah, sure, Tim
should have been in the movie. They obviously made edits in order to make the movie more
compelling. Do I care that Steve Wiebe participated in it? Not really, and I doubt others do
too. The entire reason anyone really cares about the DK score at all is because King of Kong
was such a compelling movie. Do I care that Steve may have staged some scenes? Again, not
really - even if there were proof of it, I wouldn't really care. You have some people filming
you what might be your only claim to fame in your life, they ask you to do a scene that isn't
authentic to what happened - I think most people would do it. I give Steve the benefit of the
doubt that what was filmed is what happened, but frankly, if it's not, it's not really a big deal
to me.

At the end of the day, I think it's pretty clear that TG at the time applied vastly more scrutiny
to Steve's scores than other people's. That was unfair. And the rules they placed on how a
score had to be filmed - which apparently applied to some competitors, but not others - were
unfair and arbitrary. The fact that they disqualified a score for so-called "third party
involvement," a thing that was invented solely to disqualify one particular score, was
ridiculous.

Steve got the first score over one million on an orginal DK arcade. You can place your own
private asterisks over it, if you like. But it's true. That's what happened.

03-27-2018, 04:23 AM
DustPuzzle
Exhibit A - 000881
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 881/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwayne richard

They cannot tell the truth about anything or the will be sued by newline pictures.

dwayne

That's an awful lot of salt and hearsay, and none of it is relevant at all to this dispute.

03-27-2018, 04:55 AM
homerwannabee

Getting Steve Wiebe banned at the Galaga Championships seems very extreme. Billy
Mitchell wants nothing to do with Roy Schildt, and even he was allowed to show up to the
Kong Off, and the International Video Game Hall of Fame ceremony. Surprised you even
Exhibit A - 000882
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 882/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

took this to the point of making this part of your contract. I'm not sure that's even the wisest of
moves. Usually if you want to blackball someone you don't put it in writing, and you
especially don't admit to the fact that you put it in writing.

On a side note, on a practical reason you could argue that this event is about Galaga, and not
Donkey Kong, and so it's best to keep the biggest stars of Donkey Kong away from the
tournament. Namely Wiebe, and Mitchell. Really, because if you are going to go with keeping
Wiebe away, at least go with the, "They are too much of a distraction from the main event"
angle.

03-27-2018, 09:36 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwayne richard

Weibe crying was staged monday after everyone left the funspot
No one knew weibe was gonna be there
He originally said the 1006 was a ddk but we know it wasn't
but it was the one he used the 8 way. 5 other submission's previous no 8 way why did he
switch for that submission
His lying about the break-in that never happened

RTM REPLY - Dwayne, I'm commenting on only selected excerpts from your post.

1st - the staged crying is one of the many fake/overstated/misdirection-aspects of KoK. In the
film, Wiebe is seen crying after the 1st portion of Bill's tape was shown, but the truth is Wiebe
did not even show up until the day AFTER that. However, he WAS asked to leave my own
cabin, by Kuh, who showed the 2ndhalf of Bill's tape in my cabin the following night (the day
Steve arrived) because the Crams got so fed up with the cabin guests (there were 30+ people
watching), including one who did not leave until nearly 4am, that they banned him from
returning to show "part 2" the next night. In any event, it is clear that KoK is one load of
KRAP after another.

2nd - I disagree...no matter what you may choose to believe I am 100% of the belief that Bill
was aware of his being there

3rd - here's where my recollection differs...I do not remember specifically being told by Steve
that his submission was DDK and such was never part of my write-up which bolsters my
recollection

4th - the 8-way issue was one that was a concern...it was discussed in my cabin during the
ACAM 2007 event where you/Kuh were showing clips from the DK tapes in my cabin...it
was never fully resolved during that discussion

5th - agree, and I believe that has to do with his NDA or whatever he signed that blocked him
from discussing elements of the film. Plus his lying wife was no better in her own statements
made about that occurence.

Rober

03-27-2018, 12:14 PM
Exhibit A - 000883
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 883/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

FBX
1 Attachment(s)

There's something wonderfully ironic about being able to use a Billy defender's own video to
hammer the nail in deeper. In this case, not once, but twice!

Attachment 53766

03-27-2018, 12:56 PM
Hotrod6045

At this point, what difference does it make?

It’s Game Over for Team Billy. Register your initials and go home.

03-27-2018, 05:52 PM
Jace Hall
2 Attachment(s)
Small Update

Doing some experimenting with the TWO-BIT converter and an original DK Arcade
Machine.

Searching for all possibilities....

Attachment 53814
Attachment 53815

The investigation continues....

03-27-2018, 06:08 PM
paramylodon

I have a really important question that is paramount to this dispute.

What kind of pizza is that?

03-27-2018, 06:55 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I have a really important question that is paramount to this dispute.

What kind of pizza is that?

I heard Billy just cuts open calzones, flattens them, and tells everyone its pizza.

03-27-2018, 06:57 PM
gavv

who knew TV's Frank was an arcade tech whiz too :)

03-27-2018, 10:39 PM
Asterra
Exhibit A - 000884
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 884/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavv

who knew TV's Frank was an arcade tech whiz too :)

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that someone in this forum beat me to it.

03-28-2018, 12:24 AM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I have a really important question that is paramount to this dispute.

What kind of pizza is that?

It's a 2-bit pizza with MAME toppings a la Billy.

03-28-2018, 01:56 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Doing some experimenting with the TWO-BIT converter and an original DK Arcade
Machine.

Searching for all possibilities....

One possibility: Have the direct feed output to a capture card in your computer. Then simply
close the capture card's feed window and load up MAME. That should work.

03-28-2018, 03:46 AM
YesAffinity

If nothing else, tg just got a sweet addition for its break room. Beware as employees get better
at the game, breaks could take upwards of 2.5 hours or longer.

03-28-2018, 08:46 AM
Blackflag82

So back in post #1844, Jace said they were less than 10 days from a decision (3/17). I'll admit,
I've found it hard to follow along for the past week or so as a result of life so if that deadline
got changed sometime in the 500ish posts between then and now, my apologies. But it's been
11 days since that announcement was made. Or did it mean 10 business days, and we'll be
getting the announcement on Friday? Do we know when we'll be getting a decision about
this?

03-28-2018, 08:52 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

Exhibit A - 000885
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 885/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

i had the same question, jace did clarify a few pages back he meant business days.

03-28-2018, 08:53 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

i had the same question, jace did clarify a few pages back he meant business days.

Then I guess we'll know on Friday

03-28-2018, 08:54 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

Probably just was an estimated guess. I can't speak for Jace, but I suspect they are just getting
in all the test footage they can from the Two-Bit converter and real arcade machine in order to
make a final summary presentation of their findings of fact.

03-28-2018, 08:58 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

This is what Jace wrote:

We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision.

Thank you for your patience.

an estimated guess would generally be worded "We expect to have a decision in about 10
days"
Exhibit A - 000886
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 886/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-28-2018, 09:02 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

This is what Jace wrote:

We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision.

Thank you for your patience.

an estimated guess would generally be worded "We expect to have a decision in about 10
days"

Well but isn't this a little nit-picky? If it takes them a couple more days to finish the Two-Bit
converter recording tests, then it takes a couple more days. It's not like Jace is just going to go
silent for a month and we don't hear an update. They are working on it, as seen from the pics
of his latest post.

03-28-2018, 09:17 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

It's not an issue of being nit-picky. Jace told the entire community (TG and beyond) that an
answer would be rendered within 10 days. I simply asked if this was still the timeline or if it
had changed. Asking if the timeline is the same and when a decision will be made is nothing
more or less than that.

I recognize that TG is doing a ton of work on this and it is in the best interest of the
community that they get it right. I also recognize that these disputes take an enormous toll on
the TG community in the form of reduced submitting, adjudicating, blog posts, etc... and for
that reason it is in the best interest of the community to be wrapped up as soon as possible.

03-28-2018, 09:23 AM
Snowflake

For whats its worth, I also ask about the timeline just cause I like to know. I have no issue if
there's an extension, but if there is an extension i'd like to know sooner rather than later. Its
just nice to know as much as possible is all.

Every day has been useful. Granted the evidence piling up against billy is just more of the
same, but thats still useful as it helps further destroy any argument about a random single
screen taken out of context. Also, the team billy excuses get worse and worse and all get
debunked, so each passing day also helps exhaust the excuses. I dont think this dispute is
dragging too much at all. If a timeline was never given I'd never even ask about it due to how
productive this has been. This is a high profil dispute, the outcome is much anticipated, its
Exhibit A - 000887
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 887/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

nice knowing when it will end. I cant speak for blackflag, but i know i'm not trying to rush
anyone, i'm just looking for info

03-28-2018, 09:39 AM
The Evener

I'll back up Blackflag - it's completely reasonable in the normal course of business to ask
about the status of a deadline based on a previous TG post that gave a clear timeline (10 days
or less) - clarification around business versus calendar days was the key difference.

This discussion is not an attempt to box TG in and force them to issue a decision before they
are ready however - timelines were broached earlier and therefore clarified. A decision seems
very close from recent TG posts.

03-28-2018, 10:17 AM
bounty bob

Ten days or twenty days, it makes no difference so long as the decision is correct and proven.
Take your time Jace and make sure it’s right.

03-28-2018, 11:34 AM
FBX

I'm sure Jace will post an update if it's going to take a little longer. I'm just not going to hold
him to the 10-day time limit. However, I can't imagine it taking much longer anyway. The
evidence is overwhelming, and the defenses have digressed to: '"Guess how Billy's MAME
was set up? Oh you're not psychic? Well then he didn't use MAME (even though it looks
exactly like MAME)."

03-28-2018, 12:19 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

This is what Jace wrote:

We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision.

Thank you for your patience.

an estimated guess would generally be worded "We expect to have a decision in about 10
days"

Please see this post:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post960012

03-28-2018, 12:39 PM
Jace Hall

I was recently asked a question on Facebook and I thought I would post the question and
response to the public dispute thread, since it may answer other people's similar questions:

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000888
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 888/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The dispute says that Billy’s 1.062 score is the one under investigation. If so, why are the
1.047 and 1.050 games being used as evidence??? You would need video footage of his 1.062
game as your evidence, not other games that have nothing to do with the dispute.

Let me try to answer this in two parts:

1.) The two score performances of Bill's that I went through were actual historical
performances that were submitted to TG for adjudication. While those scores are no longer
present on the scoreboard, it does not change the fact that at some point in time these scores
were submitted and represented as valid original arcade submissions. At the very least we
know that the 1,047,200 score was submitted by tape and not adjudicated by referee live.

Based on the information, knowledge, and circumstances of the time, these scores were
accepted into the database - however, if new information and knowledge comes into existence
that can definitively prove that these performances were in fact deceptive, that then becomes
an issue that potentially carries ramifications for all of the scores of the submitter, regardless
of game or track.

The "new knowledge" sort of situation is precisely why the new TG requires that all
submission evidence be available and preserved for future scrutiny - because to successfully
cheat the system a player's submission evidence has to deceive everyone now, and continue to
deceive everyone in the future as the knowledge base regarding the game grows. It's virtually
impossible to do that. Eventually nearly all invalid scores will get discovered over time.

2.) The specific video performance of the 1,062,800 is nowhere to be found. We are not able
to locate it. Billy has claimed that he gave the tape to someone at TG at some point, but we
can not identify who that was or where this tape is. We continue to investigate.

With that being said, there is some very limited video footage available of the performance
which was shot by Mike Sroka and others which shows transition screens that appear to be in
alignment with the dispute claim's signature MAME transition assertions that you can see
here:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post947065

However this footage is only partial and is not sufficient to make a definitive determination
on a standalone basis.

In relation to the 1,062,800 score there is also the "Boomers" board swap video, which was
used at the time of the score announcement to provide credibility to the score performance as
having been done according to TG rules.

We know that this was used to provide credibility of accomplishment because the video
upload dates coincide with Billy's score announcement.

You can read more about that here:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post958578

This board-swap video has stood for more than 7 years providing circumstantial
substantiation to Billy's score achievement and was recently proven to be deliberately
deceptive. After being proven deceptive, we understand that Billy Mitchell has admitted
knowing this video as a complete falsification from the very start all the way up until now.

A video was provided by Triforce that verified this admission:

Exhibit A - 000889
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 889/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

https://youtu.be/4H7OWRdywQ4?t=51m15s

With that being said, the fact that Billy deliberately participated in creating a piece of content
that was intended to deceive is only a circumstantial piece of evidence relating to the 1062
score and is not sufficient to make a definitive determination on a standalone basis.

In general I understand the overall point you are making here, and on a standalone basis, you
would be correct. However, much like the Todd Roger's 5.51 dispute, the evidence that has
accumulated in the dispute thread has uncovered the possibility that there may have been
previous deception that successfully circumvented previous TG adjudication methods or
safeguards.

Since we have the performances in question available to us, we are able to fully analyze and
evaluate whether or not submission deception has taken place previously. As mentioned
earlier, if previous deception is definitively determined and proven, that has potential
ramifications for all of Billy's scores, which would include the 1,062,800 of course.

If previous deception is not definitively determined, then all that is left to evaluate is the
actual evidence against this specific 1062 score, and as mentioned above, there currently is
not enough to warrant that score's removal on that standalone basis.

03-28-2018, 01:29 PM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
Jimmy Hoffa

Attachment 53866

I Bet [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Jimmy Hoffa will be found befor the 100.6 will be :)
[/COLOR]

03-28-2018, 01:44 PM
RomulusVonFlex

[QUOTE=Jace Hall;960508]
If previous deception is not definitively determined, then all that is left to evaluate is the
actual evidence against this specific 1062 score, and as mentioned above, there currently is
not enough to warrant that score's removal on that standalone basis.[/QUOT] There is video
of his boomers score that shows the MAME loading artifacts. How would that not be enough
evidence? There has been no way to replicate the 3 girder transition on original hardware at
all from what I can tell. Wouldn't just one transition from that score be enough? I am a bit
confused on that.

03-28-2018, 03:04 PM
Marcade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f8BlPDNLpQ

03-28-2018, 03:16 PM
awesome

This is a little late to be bringing this up but please consider...

there are a numerous artwork runs of the TKG4 boardset, typically distinguished with a dash
number ex: -14.
Exhibit A - 000890
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 890/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Im not positive but I think both of the boards in the 2 board set can be different revisions of
the artwork. Also reworks could have been done to any of the boards. Also consider 4 board
sets of TKG-3 and I guess even TKG2 could potentially have been used. I'm not saying any of
these would give any different result than whatever Jace has at TG in the machine to test
against, but it should be considered. Not sure if the board that handles video would be all that
matters or not.

I probably have 8 to 12 or more 2 board TKG4 sets myself and at least a small handful of
different revisions (not sure what is working, and several are covered to games like 8ball or
Hunchback). I'm pretty sure I have at least 1 TKG3 set of ROMs. I even have one board that
was hacked with a daughter card and dip switches to alter board order and starting level
(found that at an arcade operators warehouse big buy). There are variants of the ROMs to
consider as well. The Japan ROM can be ruled out due to boards presented and order. There
was a ROM version that didn't say "Nintendo of America" that included the girder hand trick
(like the Japan ROM).

Just adding info for what it's worth. I do not know of a list of revisions or reworks to TKG4
boards.

03-28-2018, 03:52 PM
WCopeland

ROM revisions would not impact whether or not the hardware utilizes a framebuffer, which is
the basis of the evidence put forth by Jeremy Young.

03-28-2018, 04:14 PM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

I don't agree with this part. There has been enough footage found to show that even the 1.062
Million score used MAME as well. From the videos of Billy standing behind the monitors,
and other transitions captured by actual defenders of Billy, you can conclude with fair
certainty it was done on MAME. Heck, all it takes is just one 3-girder transition, and we have
that:

Attachment 53871

03-28-2018, 04:39 PM
awesome

I'm not arguing it would Wes. Just it should be considered. Hardware revisions or reworks are
likely something more important to look at.

Im still getting through, finally, the live stream from a few nights back. The 711k 1UP issue
should look at potential interrupts delaying the toggle off of the 1UP. Also note the 1.05 game
started with 1 credit and ended with 1 credit. That would point toward a credit being added at
Exhibit A - 000891
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 891/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

some point in the game. Possibly that should be tested as a potential point where a credit
might have been added and caused the interrupt that caused a delay in the 1 UP being toggled
off.

03-28-2018, 04:51 PM
datagod

If Twin Galaxies determines that Billy's scores are in fact fraudulant, will we be receiving a
public apology from Joel West? He has called so many people terrible names for daring to
examine evidence. I am not talking about LLC stuff, that is childish. I am talking about
calling people tools of Satan, haters, vile pigs wallowing in lies and filth, etc.

I care more about the damage that Billy's supporter has done to the community than the
submission itself.

03-28-2018, 05:00 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I care more about the damage that Billy's supporter has done to the community than the
submission itself.

I care about this too, however, the reprecussions of that is billy's standing in the community
and the events, which on east side dave he mocked the challenge saying it didnt matter since
he'd still get bookings. The reprecussions of bad behavior though are in that arena, for the
purposes of this dispute all that matters is whether or not he's guilty (and the evidence,
including evdience his own supporters offered up not fully understanding it, says that he is).
Twin Galaxies doesnt strip records just for the person being a jerk, nor should it.

03-28-2018, 05:05 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by awesome

Im still getting through, finally, the live stream from a few nights back. The 711k 1UP issue
should look at potential interrupts delaying the toggle off of the 1UP. Also note the 1.05 game
started with 1 credit and ended with 1 credit. That would point toward a credit being added at
some point in the game. Possibly that should be tested as a potential point where a credit
might have been added and caused the interrupt that caused a delay in the 1 UP being toggled
off.

That isn't actually part of the dispute and has no reason to be looked at beyond more evidence
that he cheated. The evidence being analyzed has to do with how the original hardware
rasterizes the boards. Remember, Billy supposedly sent these boards off to nintendo to be
verified.

03-28-2018, 05:05 PM
Exhibit A - 000892
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 892/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

datagod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I totally get it, I am just saying that Joel's insults and outright offensive behavior is what
sickened me. Saying he knows about cheaters but chooses to stay silent for the greater good,
for the good of the legacy, for the legacy of gamiers, etc. You know, you were there in that
thread where he was flipping his lid on us for daring to want to examine evidence. That was
before Team Billy went full Joeltard.

03-28-2018, 05:12 PM
datagod
8 Attachment(s)

Attachment 53874
Attachment 53875
Attachment 53876

Attachment 53877

Attachment 53878

Attachment 53879

Attachment 53880

Attachment 53881

03-28-2018, 05:19 PM
awesome

Jace seemed pretty surprised in the live stream by this 1UP thing. If it's going to be
considered at all as another piece of evidence of MAME it should be investigated if it was
caused by a normal hardware interrupt of the code, potentially the extra credit being added,
which by the way was one of my reasons for rejecting the 1.05M tape inExhibit
the firstAplace, along
- 000893
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 893/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

with being direct feed with no proof of actual player and no proof what hardware platform
was used (yes I specifically called out it wasn't possible to know if it could have been a
MAME inp playback without an uncut video going around and showing inside of game
including wiring and boardset setup). But due to a Senior referee having witnessed the game
live, it was ultimately accepted under that rule.

03-28-2018, 05:32 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by awesome

Jace seemed pretty surprised in the live stream by this 1UP thing. If it's going to be
considered at all as another piece of evidence of MAME it should be investigated if it was
caused by a normal hardware interrupt of the code, potentially the extra credit being added,
which by the way was one of my reasons for rejecting the 1.05M tape in the first place, along
with being direct feed with no proof of actual player and no proof what hardware platform
was used (yes I specifically called out it wasn't possible to know if it could have been a
MAME inp playback without an uncut video going around and showing inside of game
including wiring and boardset setup). But due to a Senior referee having witnessed the game
live, it was ultimately accepted under that rule.

With the way disputes are handled now there have been several third party sources that have
tracked how MAME loads and they figured it all out. Surprised no one thought of that back
then.

03-28-2018, 05:42 PM
datagod
5 Attachment(s)
One more for the road...

Attachment 53883

Attachment 53884

Attachment 53885

Attachment 53886

Attachment 53887

03-28-2018, 05:43 PM Exhibit A - 000894

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 894/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

voodoo_chilly

You know, back in 2002 or 2003 ... I forget exact date... I submitted a score on MAME for
almost 500K on Donkey Kong. The ref at the time, Mark Longridge, used to have about a 2
week max turnaround for verifying scores on MAME. Months went by. I politely emailed him
and asked if he needed me to re-send the inp if he didn't receive it. No reply. A few months
later I send another polite email asking if he needs the inp or why he didn't reply. No reply.
On the CALENDAR YEAR anniversary of me sending the original inp for the Donkey Kong
score of almost 500K, I wasn't so nice. He FINALLY replied with an email of "Dude, We've
got lives too". I know around 500K doesn't sound like much at the time, but back then, it was
a top score, and indicative of someone who could pose a future threat to the #1 score on
Donkey Kong. It's funny, right after this email I said "eff this" and left the whole TG behind.
It was obviously a boy's club. From what I hear in later years, Mark Longridge quit as a ref
shortly thereafter...probably tired of being a "*****".

A few years back, when Dwayne Richard stayed at my house a few days while he was
producing his documentary, I asked him about this. I know he is good friends with Mark
Longridge and asked Dwayne to call Mark "right now" and ask why he never reviewed my
Donkey Kong inp. Dwayne didn't reply. In retrospect, I wouldn't be surprised if Mark
Longridge was instructed to not reply to any Donkey Kong possible-contender's score
submissions. Also, I've seen replies here or in another TG thread by RTM about getting score
backlogs from Mark Longridge after Mark quit TG. When I came back in 2007 to get a
killscreen, I noticed that my almost 500K inp STILL wasn't on the scoreboard. WTF? After I
got a killscreen, I didn't go any further because "new rules" got put in place to have senior ref
view any new DK high scores. Bunch of BS! I know I talked with Scott Kesslar around that
time, and he wasn't for the new BS rules as well.

Just wanted to put this out publically to show that Billy's cheating DID affect other gamers
wanting to compete.

03-28-2018, 05:48 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Exactly. I feel like Jace's allowance that the (at least two) specimens of the 1.062 footage
exhibiting MAME behavior "isn't enough" was spoken strictly within the context of the
already overwhelming evidence in the case of the other scores. In a complete vacuum, I doubt
Jace would have so easily dismissed what is patently blunt evidence of MAME, particularly
given that it appears within the only existing evidence that the 1.062 score was ever even
played.

03-28-2018, 05:55 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voodoo_chilly Exhibit A - 000895

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 895/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Just wanted to put this out publically to show that Billy's cheating DID affect other gamers
wanting to compete.

RTM REPLY - specific to your point RE Mark's leaving TG. I inherited the mantle of
MAME referee and "Keeper of the Rules" when he decided he no longer wished to handle
MAME. Any INPs in my possession at the time were watched, but Mark never sent over any
that were pending...I merely handled the few that had started to come to me in lieu of Mark.

My apologies if the score submission slipped thru the cracks, but anything submitted to me
after Mark was reviewed. Several scores did not get accepted for various reasons, but in such
cases the gamer was contacted.

At some point MAME submissions were made online directly to TG. It's too long after the
fact to remember what I saw or did not see on that forum. But in response to the turnover, I
never received unwatched INP's from Mark.

03-28-2018, 06:06 PM
The Evener

@datagod , just as a clarification, not all of the conversations are time stamped - some
indicate "4 hours ago" - for those without a specific date, when did they occur? I see mention
of a "mountain of evidence" that will prove Billy innocent, I was wondering if this was an
older reference or if there is supposed to be a new mountain that will take another kick at the
can.

03-28-2018, 06:09 PM
Rev John
Exhibit A - 000896
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 896/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

1 Attachment(s)

A good disassembly of the code is available via reply #14 at

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=383.0

I'd encourage others to look at the code. Here's my understanding of 1UP and coin insertion
coding.

The process that handles the "1UP' flashing is from memory locations 0315 - 034F and relies
on the following timer:

; #601A - Timer constantly counts down from FF to 00 and then FF to 00 again and again ... 1
count per frame

I cannot think of any reason why the 1UP would persist on screen except for (i) some sort of
'pull' or 'drag' on the videotape which leads to the same image staying on screen (and I'm just
guessing, I have no idea if this can actually happen), or (ii) something has interfered with the
smooth declination of the 601A timer. As this 1UP thing is apparently not normally seen my
best guess is that the value of 601A is not stored in a MAME save-state. I understand the 1UP
oddity happened at the start of a stage, an ideal time to create a save-state for someone so
inclined.

The process that handles the coin insertion is at memory locations 017B - 01B9, and at no
point is memory location 601A referenced in this part of the code. If a coin is inserted whilst
the game is playing nothing is shown on screen and the game doesn't even make a sound (not
that you would be able to tell as Billy's videos are silent). Testing on MAME tells me that you
can add as many coins as you like and the 1UP flash is not affected. I don't have a cab but I'm
sure you'd also see no change in the 1UP flashing if inserting real coins. WolfMAME
(MAME where you can't cheat) won't accept a second coin input, so it's not a non-cheating
version of MAME. So it appears that in the 1.05 video the game processed a coin insertion.
The natural question to ask is then: "What is more likely - deciding to insert a coin whilst
playing on an actual arcade machine, or accidentally pressing the wrong button whilst playing
at home on MAME?" Keep in mind that if someone is abusing MAME save-states they would
need to press a variety of buttons on the key-board, they're not sitting there static pressing
only the arrow keys and Z or space.

For the record there is no doubt in my mind - Billy used MAME. The screen transitions have
only been able to be replicated using MAME. The 'fingerprint' showing use of MAME on DK
would be (1) MAME transitions as shown, (2) silent gameplay to avoid MAME's incorrect
sound, (3) a higher than expected number of 500/800 smashes, which hb_ calculated at 1
chance in 360 which you can at least double after considering the above-average scoring on
the rivet stages, and (5) lack of confirmation of actual live performance, in which case we
only have cheater Todd Rogers to take the word of. The screen rotation Billy could have
gotten correct but he stuffed up there too exposing MAME as the only good reason for that.
The 1UP issue's best explanation I reckon is also MAME (save-state issue).

03-28-2018, 06:12 PM
Rev John

PS Not sure why that screenshot got attached. I guess you now know I'm a geocacher who
plays World of Tanks haha

03-28-2018, 06:18 PM
Snowflake
Exhibit A - 000897
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 897/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

@datagod, just as a clarification, not all of the conversations are time stamped - some
indicate "4 hours ago" - for those without a specific date, when did they occur? I see mention
of a "mountain of evidence" that will prove Billy innocent, I was wondering if this was an
older reference or if there is supposed to be a new mountain that will take another kick at the
can.

i was in some of those conversation, some are older than others. One was as simple as hector
playing dragster, and me saying there were only two atari games i hated as a kid, e.t and
dragster and i've since learned to like e.t (true story i read a write up explaining how e.t. is
good and it was an interesting point of view that changed my mind,but thats its own story).
Anyway, just saying dragster sucks, on a facebook post hat had nothing to do with todd, led to
joel going into a huge tirade about how if i dont like dragster and vocalize that i'm insulting
todd and sinning. This was back during the todd dispute, so i understand anything dragster
reminding people of todd, but come on, if i want to say the game sucks i'm gonna say the
game sucks. I dont think i should beaten up and treated like i slandered todd just for saying
the game is crap.

Because of joel, what wasnt about todd turned into todd -- funny how that happens. everyone
plot of joel always backfires and those he tries to defend he winds up hurting. It led the
screenshot i posted earlier on about how if pursue todd we may eventually find other cheating
that we dont want to find. In light of whats come up about billy since, I cant help but to think
thats what he was referring to, cant be sure as that invovles reading minds of course, but he
seemed to think there was cheating so big it would destroy the community if discoved so we
should end examining old scores. cant imagine anything else that he might think is so
important.

as for the other conversations datagod himself will have to answer the question there.

03-28-2018, 06:44 PM
Tessman

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

@datagod, just as a clarification, not all of the conversations are time stamped - some
indicate "4 hours ago" - for those without a specific date, when did they occur? I see mention
of a "mountain of evidence" that will prove Billy innocent, I was wondering if this was an
older reference or if there is supposed to be a new mountain that will take another kick at the
can.

I'm trying to read in between the lines to get a date, but it's hard to place. My best guess seems
to pin it in mid Feb.

Who is Joel anyway? He argues like a child on the playground, and talks about character and
'Facts I definitely know but won't share for Reasons™'. It's beyond pathetic.

03-28-2018, 07:05 PM
datagod

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000898
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 898/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by The Evener

@datagod, just as a clarification, not all of the conversations are time stamped - some
indicate "4 hours ago" - for those without a specific date, when did they occur? I see mention
of a "mountain of evidence" that will prove Billy innocent, I was wondering if this was an
older reference or if there is supposed to be a new mountain that will take another kick at the
can.

This was right around the time of the East Side Sewer Show. Not sure if it was a week before,
or the day after. It was close thought.

03-28-2018, 08:09 PM
RTM

I have a question for my own edification.

Arcade versus MAME - in the elevator stage, once the "3rd elevator pattern" is reached, does
the count of how many elevators reach the bottom of the screen identical for both platforms if
you were to reach the stage and just let them fall until the timer reached zero and your
Jumpman was killed ?

Just asking if anyone knows or ever tested that before.

03-29-2018, 12:52 AM
FBX

BTW, why do people insist on using "Jumpman" when that was never the intention of the
character's name? It was actually "Mr. Video" but then later changed to "Mario":

Shigeru Miyamoto created Mario while developing Donkey Kong in an attempt to produce a
best-selling video game for Nintendo; previous titles like Sheriff had not achieved the same
success as titles like Pac-Man. Originally, Miyamoto wanted to create a video game that used
the characters Popeye, Bluto, and Olive Oyl.[3] At the time, however, Miyamoto was unable
to acquire a license to use the characters (and would not until 1982 with Popeye), so he ended
up making an unnamed player character, Donkey Kong, and Lady (later known as Pauline).[3]
In the early stages of Donkey Kong, Mario was unable to jump, and the focus was to escape a
maze. However, Miyamoto enabled Mario to jump, saying "If you had a barrel rolling
towards you, what would you do?"[4][5]
While the protagonist was unnamed in the Japanese release, he would be named Jumpman in
the game's English instructions[6] and Mario in the sales brochure.[7] Miyamoto originally
named the character "Mr. Video", and he was to be used in every video game Miyamoto
developed.[8] According to a widely circulated story, during localization of Donkey Kong for
American audiences, Nintendo of America's warehouse landlord Mario Segale confronted
then-president Minoru Arakawa, demanding back rent. Following a heated argument in which
the Nintendo employees eventually convinced Segale he would be paid, they opted to name
the character in the game Mario after him.[9][10]
Miyamoto commented that if he had named Mario "Mr. Video", Mario likely would have
"disappeared off the face of the Earth".[5] By Miyamoto's own account, Mario's profession
was chosen to fit with the game design. Since Donkey Kong was set on a construction site,
Mario was made into a carpenter. When he appeared again in Mario Bros., it was decided he
should be a plumber, since a lot of the game is played in underground settings.[11] Mario's
character design, particularly his large nose, draws on western influences; once he became a
plumber, Miyamoto decided to "put him in New York" and make him Italian,[11]
Exhibit A - 000899
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 899/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

lightheartedly attributing Mario's nationality to his mustache.[12] Other sources have Mario's
profession chosen to be carpenter in an effort to depict the character as an ordinary hard
worker, and make it easier for players to identify with him.[13] After a colleague suggested
that Mario more closely resembled a plumber, Miyamoto changed Mario's profession
accordingly and developed Mario Bros.,[3] featuring the character in the sewers of New York
City.[14]

03-29-2018, 01:02 AM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

In fact, here you go, straight from 1981 the man's name is MARIO:

Attachment 53944

03-29-2018, 02:00 AM
bounty bob
1 Attachment(s)

Not that it has much to do with this dispute, but that brochure wouldn't have been seen by
many players. The players saw the instructions on the cabinet and on there he was called
Jumpman, so that's why he gets referred to as such,

Attachment 53946

03-29-2018, 07:26 AM
YesAffinity

^^Thanks for posting that FBX, that's a pretty cool piece of history, and interesting for sure.
"Mario" has always been considered a misnomer when referring to the character as he exists
in Donkey Kong, for the reason that Bounty Bob pointed it. It is also interesting to note that
the character is a carpenter in Donkey Kong, and once officially appearing as Mario (from a
game's outset), is a plumber. Saw an interesting video exploring the theory that Jumpman and
the Lady are actually Mario and Luigi's parents, using evidence from the entire expanse of the
series(es) that came ultimately out of Donkey Kong. But I digress.

Going back to a question about hardware variations, I captured from my TKG3 4-board stack
with original "ladder cheat" code. No difference in the signature transition frames - exactly
what we would expect from arcade hardware, as we know it. This doesn't completely rule out
some variation resulting from a variant boardset revision, but as Wes said, it is unlikely.

03-29-2018, 07:33 AM
YesAffinity

But, maybe for posterity, we should document what boards sets are being tested with.

All of my uploaded videos are from a TKG-4-11 board set. And as mentioned, I've also
captured from a TKG3-06 board set.
@Jace Hall - what board set(s) is TG testing with?

03-29-2018, 10:55 AM
rotunda

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000900
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 900/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by FBX

Attachment 53871

I agree you cannot exclude the 1.06m score given the evidence. It's so obvious they are all
MAME.

03-29-2018, 12:21 PM
Prophecyrob

If all TG does is remove the 3 MAME scores, then we all might as well start cheating. We can
submit sketchy gameplay and maybe no one will notice for years and if they do all that
happens is the score disappears....and that’s after causing a **** load of work and headaches
for TG from disputing.

What Jace has to do is hand out a serious punishment for this. I’m all for the scorched earth as
Billy has made money off his ****ty cheating. But I’ve got a sinking feeling Jace doesn’t
wanna get sued or have Billy disclose old TG dirty laundry.

03-29-2018, 12:30 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

And yet it's not a misnomer. Nintendo officially stated that it is in FACT Mario in Donkey
Kong. While I understand the original instructions didn't have this information, to continue to
call Mario "Jumpman" after all these years is silly and ridiculous.

03-29-2018, 12:45 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

If you say so. :thumbsup:

03-29-2018, 12:52 PM
The Evener

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000901
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 901/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by rotunda

I agree you cannot exclude the 1.06m score given the evidence. It's so obvious they are all
MAME.

My interpretation of Jace's answer differs - he didn't exclude the 1.06m evidence, but
indicated that he wouldn't remove the score on the basis of the presentation video and the
staged Boomer's video alone. He didn't say that the evidence lacked credibility, or that the
claim at the heart of the dispute concerning the 1.06m score was baseless.

Like you, I believe that there is sufficient evidence in the dispute review about the 1.06m
score that would permit TG to make a definitive ruling to remove it, based on the conclusion
that an original arcade game will never render screen transitions that match MAME, that there
is sufficient confidence in camera capture of video play back to accept the results of the cited
videos as evidence of MAME use.

Be that as it may, it appears that the threshold of evidence that TG requires to render a
decision based on the 1.06 examples alone is insufficient. However, that does not mean that
the evidence isn't damning, or that the evidence taken collectively doesn't portend an
extremely serious outcome.

03-29-2018, 01:02 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

If you say so. :thumbsup:

Nintendo says so. ;-)

03-29-2018, 01:07 PM
Snowflake

for the side conversaton on mario /jumpman i dont have sources in front of me, so take it for
what its worth, but i have looked at it before. yes, he was jumpman at first then nintendo
changed his name to mario. they didnt just change his name in future titles, but actually
named him mario in dk as well. people who call him jumpman arent wrong, that was his
name. people who call him mario arent wrong, that was also his name. Its like a woman gets
married, someone knows her maiden name someone else knows her married name, and both
argue over what the real name is. Both are correct depending on the time being referenced.

jumpman is his maiden name.

03-29-2018, 01:10 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Like you, I believe that there is sufficient evidence in the dispute review about the 1.06m
Exhibit A - 000902
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 902/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

score that would permit TG to make a definitive ruling to remove it, based on the conclusion
that an original arcade game will never render screen transitions that match MAME, that there
is sufficient confidence in camera capture of video play back to accept the results of the cited
videos as evidence of MAME use.

Theres another important implication of this. An issue with just one score can have any
number of explanation (like dwayne traveling the speed of light, taping billy's tapes out of his
hand and replacing the forged tapes so quickly billy never noticed, then somehow tricking
sroka into filming and then patiently waiting years for his nefarious plan to play out...), and
therefore only result in the one score being removed. Establishing a series of faked scores
justifies stripping all and banning. I'm in favor of establishing a long running series of billy
intentionally decieving others on his scores.

03-29-2018, 02:05 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Jace said something in the stream along the lines of "it would be problematic for other scores
to remain on the site that were submitted by a person who has intentionally submitted
deceptive scores".

03-29-2018, 02:35 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Be that as it may, it appears that the threshold of evidence that TG requires to render a
decision based on the 1.06 examples alone is insufficient.

I'm still convinced that the only reason Jace allowed that the obvious evidence of MAME was
"insufficient" in this case was specifically because of the comparatively overwhelming
evidence in the case of the earlier scores. Were it the case that the 1.06M dispute totally
lacked any unrelated videos and we only had the snippets of the 1.06M video that do exist, I
cannot fathom a scenario where Jace would conclude that it was insufficient. After all, it
would mean that the only available footage of the 1.06M score is 100% MAME-compliant,
and yet that was being dismissed. TG would be a laughingstock.

03-29-2018, 04:35 PM
FBX Exhibit A - 000903
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 903/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Were it the case that the 1.06M dispute totally lacked any unrelated videos and we only had
the snippets of the 1.06M video that do exist, I cannot fathom a scenario where Jace would
conclude that it was insufficient. After all, it would mean that the only available footage of the
1.06M score is 100% MAME-compliant, and yet that was being dismissed. TG would be a
laughingstock.

Exactly, especially in light of the fact that the verification method was via a referee known to
have been corrupt himself and banned for it. It was a case of 'bros' looking out for each other,
and if Jace let it stand as is, I don't TG could recover. TG has a REALLY bad reputation right
now thanks to the likes of Todd, Ron, and Billy among others, and the only way through that
is by sorting out the rotten apples.

I read all the rating reviews TG gets, and it's overwhelmingly negative. For every 5 star
rating, there are TWICE as many 1 star ratings. Most of which seem to be over the Dragster
dispute appearing to be stalling indefinitely until Apollo Legend did his video report on my
experiences with Todd. For posterity, below is the last message I ever sent to Todd 5 years
ago, after he sent me an angry PM over me constantly replying to various threads that praised
him as a gaming god with the facts I knew about him:

"First off, you and I both know the things you did at TG were highly unethical, and frankly it
make me very bitter how Mike and I were treated like the bad guys when we stood up for the
integrity of the TG database. Ron covering for you and flat-out lying for you really just made
it even worse. We had to PROVE your record was bogus before anything got done about it,
because both you AND Ron swore it was 100% legit. Then on top of all that other crap,
you're caught entering in your own scores on the C64 format without submitting full
verification to the proper ref. To make things worse, many of those scores were VERY
suspect anyway. So when a discussion comes up about TG, you, and those dark days, you bet
your ass I'm going to tell it exactly like it is. Mike and I got shat on, while you got praised by
sycophants. You're damn right I'm going set the record straight."

03-29-2018, 05:25 PM
Mitch Mitchell
Total disconnect

[QUOTE=FBX;960876]Exactly, especially in light of the fact that the verification method

was via a referee known to have been corrupt himself and banned for it. It was a case of 'bros'
looking out for each other, and if Jace let it stand as is, I don't TG could recover. TG has a
REALLY bad reputation right now thanks to the likes of Todd, Ron, and Billy among others,
and the only way through that is by sorting out the rotten apples.

I read all the rating reviews TG gets, and it's overwhelmingly negative. For every 5 star
rating, there are TWICE as many 1 star ratings."

I can't imagine how people can look at TG in a negative light for Todd, Billy and Ron etc
when TG has been in the process to remove --or already has removed-- them from the
leaderboards for a long time now; only people with a total disconnect could not see this as all
very positive actions from TG. The scoreboard is being routed of erronious records, this can
in no way be seen in a negative light.
I know what you mean though as I've seen comments from the aparently clueless say that Jace
Exhibit A - 000904
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 904/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

will obviously protect Billy and even falsify evidence to do so and the dispute is a sham yada
yada. Imagine? hahaha just talking from total ignorance as if theyve not read a single of his
comments here or on DKF or on FB in stream etc etc.

03-29-2018, 06:16 PM
The Christian Pac-Man
2 Attachment(s)

I think I better understand the situation with the monitor inverter and the RGB
to NTSC converter output. Originally I thought the output worked in tandem
with or was in a measure dependent on how the signal was processed through the
monitor. One of the reasons for making this assumption had to do with how the
output appeared on an external device like a TV. If the DK monitor displayed an
upside down image, the assumption was that the output to the converter would
reproduce what was on the screen. This is not necessarily the case.

It appears the video data, from the DK circuit board, is sent to the inverter board
where it is then run, non-inverted(pass-through), to the monitor. At the same time
the video signal is also sent to the RGB to NTSC converter board through the
inverted out, which in turn converts/translates the signal to be compatible with
NTSC equipment (see figure 1).

It appears that DK boards were originally synced and matched to the monitor
that would be used in the cabinet (1). Here are some scenarios to consider:

1).A PCB that was synced with a monitor that was installed 90° counterclockwise,
could be taken out and used in another machine. If that machine’s monitor had
been installed 90° clockwise, the resultant picture would appear upside down.
2).The original monitor was replaced and the new tube was oriented 180° from
the original. This would display an upside down picture.
3).If a board is placed in a machine which has the same monitor orientation, but
the yoke wires have been reversed, the image would appear upside down.

Now if a PCB had been originally synced with a monitor that was installed 90°
clockwise and it was later placed in a machine where the monitor was installed
90° counter-clockwise, there are at least a couple ways to correct the image. The
most common method of correcting this is to reverse the yoke wires
(http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/flip/). Once this is done the image should
appear right side up. The original video data would run to the inverter board and
then to the monitor, where it would be flipped due to the reorientation of the yoke.
However, if you also run the signal through the inverted out to a VCR via NTSC
converter, the image will not have changed since this takes place before the signal
is routed to the monitor. This means the vertical image would appear right side up
if you were to rotate the external device (TV) 90° clockwise.

There appears to be other ways to switch the orientation which have nothing to do
with the monitor or yoke. This can be adjusted by making some changes on the
Donkey Kong circuit board (see
Exhibit A - 000905
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 905/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/flip/dk.shtml), or through
swapping/flipping wires which come from the PCB video out or the video input on
the inverter board.

I mention all this because some have been led to believe that because Billy
Mitchell’s two earlier games are displayed right side up when rotated 90°
clockwise (figure 2), they could not have been done on arcade, because they do not
match what others have recorded through a direct feed process. Billy’s 2010 game
was said to have been played on the same machine that was recently tested by
Carlos Pineiro. The output does match the orientation found in the 1,062,800
game. The display is upright when the TV is rotated 90° counter-clockwise (figure
3). The claim that the orientation MUST always appear this way for direct feed
output has not been demonstrated. Using a circuit board with a different
synchronization will produce output that is flipped (180°).

The fact Billy's two earlier games are oriented differently isn't significant. It
certainly doesn't prove the output must have been MAME or computer
generated.
__________________________________________________

There are various points one would have to check with respect to troubleshooting:

1). Power supply

2). CPU circuit board
3). Video circuit board
4). Inverter board
5). Converter board
6). External recording device
7). Media used

Is the synchronization of a circuit board, timing and frequency affected by the

manner in which power is supplied to the components?
One must consider factors such as the topology used in switching regulators and
whether current is operating in continuous or discontinuous mode. Is the DK
machine using an original power supply, or has it been replaced with a newer and
more efficient model? If someone dogmatically asserts that such could not affect
how a video signal is expressed, I would challenge them to prove it. If there is a
possibility that such could be affected, then it deserves attention.

The video signal needs to be analyzed from the circuit board, then rechecked from
the inverter board, then the converter board, and finally from the composite
output.

How this signal is expressed on various types of VCRs, would also have to be
examined. The way a signal is recorded may depend on the quality of the VCR.
The signal should also be examined in playback and compared to the original
input.

The step by step process involved in drawing the girder stage according
Exhibit A to code
- 000906
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 906/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

analysis will show the “finger”/”tail” in the MAME debugger in a number of

places, every time it is analyzed. Since the ROMS are the same, one can rightly
assume the same takes place with the arcade. However, if someone is able to
perform a similar analysis with a DK circuit board, it should be done for
confirmation’s sake.
__________________________________________

(1) “All monitors (and TV) are really horizontal monitors. When arcade
manufacturers built vertical games, they simply used a standard (horizontal)
monitor and physically rotated it 90 degrees when mounted into the cabinet.
The problem is that there is really no standard that the manufacturers followed in
terms of whether they rotated the monitor 90 degrees clockwise or counter-
clockwise. Additionally on the older classic games, the manufacturer assumed
that only their PCB would be in the cabinet, so as long as the game PCB matched
the same rotation of the monitor things were fine. That means now there are a
mixture of game PCBs that assume one rotation and other game PCBs that
assume the opposite rotation. This makes it very difficult to swap monitors and/or
game pcbs from one cabinet to another. It also creates a problem for multigame
setups, whereby more than one game is being played in the same cabinet.” –
Source:http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/flip/

Attachment 53971

Attachment 53972

03-29-2018, 06:59 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

The claim that the orientation MUST always appear this way for direct feed
output has not been demonstrated.

Let's be honest here. The claim you're referring to was a passing hypothesis that Jace put
forward, and since then he has said in the stream a week ago that this claim shouldn't be used
as a point of evidence in this dispute because it is technically possible to reproduce the
orientation in original hardware.

The main thing that Billy supporters should be trying to figure out is how original hardware
can produce the "girder finger" transition screen in a manner than is reproducible. It has been
demonstrated that MAME can produce this and anyone can reproduce it on their own
computer, but it has yet to be shown that original hardware can produce this transition frame.

Exhibit A - 000907
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 907/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

There were several other hypotheses that have since been abandoned, such as the oil can and
DK rasterized on the same frame that was dismissed because of rolling shutter effects.
However, the hypothesis that is paramount to this dispute, the girder transitions, have honestly
been largely ignored by Billy supporters. David, if you really want to help Billy, you should
be focusing on the girder transition rather than tangential at best claims that have since been
dismissed by Jace himself.

I don't care about Billy's honesty, history, or character. I have no doubt that he's a great guy in
person, but this dispute is not about who Billy is. This dispute is about the scores that Billy
submitted to Twin Galaxies. There is evidence that the gameplay videos submitted contains
elements of MAME. As of yet, it has not been shown that original Donkey Kong hardware
can produce those elements displayed in this gameplay footage.

I have no beef with Billy or his supporters. I just want them to focus on the things that are
actually relevant to this dispute so we can end this already. You can ignore every one here
who you feel is being too negative about Billy, because at the end of the day as Jace has said
repeatedly, the scores are what are being disputed here. Evidence is what matters.

03-29-2018, 07:53 PM
Robert.F
Lets all pretend there nothing wrong with Billy

http://www.ottumwacourier.com/news/l...5d5ff8094.html

03-29-2018, 08:40 PM
YesAffinity

So the 1.04 and 1.05 scores were performed on hacked boards? Anything else we should
know about the board or boards those scores were performed on? :)

Running Dk boards on "newer more efficient" switching power supplies results in screen jitter
which is to say very fast aide to side twitching. It's pretty damn annoying to be honest. I had a
switcher kit in my dk for a while, while I was too lazy to cap the original power supply. Didn't
know the switcher was the problem, there's a pretty lengthy thread on klov about how to
combat the sanyo 20ez jitters. I replaced many things until finally fixing it by recapping the
original power supply and putting the cab back on the original power supply. I can assure you
tho that running the board on a switching power supply did not cause the image to flip.

I'm also not understanding how sanyo 20 ez's wouldve been differently oriented from the
factory. The anode cap cord is pretty short, cant reach to the hole if the tube were rotated 180
degrees. The whole assembly wasn't coming upside down out of the factory...not only would I
give more credit to Nintendo qc process than that, it wouldn't physically fit. The yoke
connector is keyed, cant put it on the wrong way. Were arcade ops at that time regularly doing
that modification on the game board, like "damn here's another upside down monitor from the
Nintendo factory, pull the board back out, let's mod that section of the game board." Never
see in the fs forums on klov and others about "btw this nintendo game board is modded for a
180'ed display if your cabs display isn't 180'ed, you'll have to mod it back." The video cable
from board to chassis has r,g,b,s and 2 grounds. Not sure how you would cause a rotate with
that pinout. I'm sure I'm missing something in all this tho.

03-29-2018, 08:57 PM
YesAffinity

We're also not talking about cross manufacturer monitor swaps, board swaps or multi game
cabs here, and that has no place in the conversation. And one would INCORRECTLY assume
Exhibit A - 000908
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 908/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

that the girder finger that is a result of mame imperfect emulation is reproducible on arcade
hardware, no matter how many times Carlos says mame is 99.9% accurate while at the same
time showing us the 5 girder startup on arcade hardware. Show us the finger on arcade
hardware! And keep in mind this is just one example of the clear signs that Billy's
performances were not performed on arcade hardware. There are more, but this one is the
most glaring.

03-29-2018, 09:17 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

[Extended discussion of monitor inverter, converter output, PCB /monitor interaction,
and monitor rotation]

I mention all this because some have been led to believe that because Billy Mitchell’s
two earlier games are displayed right side up when rotated 90° clockwise (figure 2),
they could not have been done on arcade, because they do not match what others
have recorded through a direct feed process. Billy’s 2010 game was said to have
been played on the same machine that was recently tested by Carlos Pineiro. The
output does match the orientation found in the 1,062,800 game. The display is
upright when the TV is rotated 90° counter-clockwise (figure 3). The claim that the
orientation MUST always appear this way for direct feed output has not been
demonstrated. Using a circuit board with a different synchronization will produce
output that is flipped (180°).

The fact Billy's two earlier games are oriented differently isn't significant. It certainly
doesn't prove the output must have been MAME or computer generated.

There is already a consensus that the rotation of the recorded output from Billy's 1.04
and 1.05 million games does not prove MAME, since TG has concluded that the
output was captured on computer, which could permit someone - however
inexplicably - to rotate a direct feed capture obtained from a DK arcade machine
before recording to VHS tape.

I'm a little unclear about the role of your earlier discussion, though, since Billy has
never claimed to use anything but original DK hardware for his direct capture games.
Since Carlos demonstrated that a direct capture set-up displays the output in
accordance with figure 3, it's curious that the first two games ended up in an output
rotation that doesn't match. But as stated, there is agreement that the image rotation
does not confirm MAME use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

__________________________________________________

There are various points one would have to check with respect to troubleshooting:

1). Power supply

2). CPU circuit board
3). Video circuit board
Exhibit A - 000909
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 909/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

4). Inverter board

5). Converter board
6). External recording device
7). Media used

Could you clarify what is your hypothesis in checking these points? Is it that failure at
any point will cause a direct capture feed of an arcade DK machine to render screen
transitions in the same manner as found in MAME? If so, there is no need to
undertake tests in the manner you prescribe since we have 30+ years of data to draw
upon.

Anyone who frequented an arcade in the 1980s or acquired arcade games later in life
for their personal collection can attest to the impact of a failure at any point between
1 through 4 - a game that freezes upon power up; a glitched game that may or may
not be playable; a game that "plays blind" (coins up and produces game play sounds,
but the monitor doesn't display anything). Robert Childs has spoken to points 5
through 7 in an earlier message by confirming there were no problems that affected
the recording.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post949192

The same 30+ years of data applies to VCR usage, rendering a potentially endless
experiment on testing on how different VCRs record signal outputs completely moot.
We can all agree that VCRs varied in price, which often affected how long they
operated without problems, but - for the sake of argument - if there were actual
variations in how VCR #1 recorded TV transmission "outputs" of Magnum P.I.
compared to VCR #2, any of us that used VCRs from the late 1970s onwards would
have heard about it in media outlets, Consumer Reports reviews, and word of mouth.

There is also nothing inherently unique about a newer power supply compared to a
factory original that would result in a VCR recording MAME transitions from an
arcade machine. Either components receive the prescribed voltages within tolerance,
or the game behaves erratically, things stop working, or they start smoking as I can
attest to with a few failed arcade repairs. Consequently, I will just turn your challenge
back on you: If someone dogmatically asserts that a new power supply could affect
how a video signal is expressed, I would challenge them to prove it.

In view of proving or disproving MAME usage, it would be more effective and

impactful to scrutinize additional evidence at hand: would you be able to provide Jace
with a full recording of the original source copy footage of the IVGHOF/Big Bang
announcement? The earlier recording that you posted to your Facebook page that
captured play back of Billy's 1.06 million score was of surprising poor quality
considering it was a "first generation" copy from the original source footage. It would
be of great interest to the arcade/MAME debate if the community could review a high
quality copy of the source footage you previewed on your camcorder in an earlier
video.

03-30-2018, 12:16 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Exhibit A - 000910
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 910/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Besides which, methinks there was a mistaken conflation between "rotating" and
"inverting" in that exhaustive post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

would you be able to provide Jace with a full recording of the original source copy
footage of the IVGHOF/Big Bang announcement? The earlier recording that you
posted to your Facebook page that captured play back of Billy's 1.06 million score
was of surprising poor quality considering it was a "first generation" copy from the
original source footage. It would be of great interest to the arcade/MAME debate if
the community could review a high quality copy of the source footage you previewed
on your camcorder in an earlier video.

Frankly speaking, I personally am only morbidly curious to see new "evidence" arrive at this
point. I expect it to be doctored. I expect the doctored footage to be intended to satisfy a small
minority, and to be effective at doing so. Why do I think this, besides reasonable expectation?
Because Billy obviously has his own copy of the 1.06M score -- he famously showed it off,
unfortunately for him -- and if it had been legitimate, he would have provided it in full by
now. It's a great stroke of fortune that we've had access to all the footage we do. But it takes
time to create a convincing forgery, so no full "1.06M tape" yet, and almost certainly never as
a complete recording available for all to scrutinize.

03-30-2018, 01:45 AM
rotunda

Quote:

If the 1.06m score stands given the evidence then well... I don't know what to say quite
frankly. Given Billy's clear use of MAME even in past scores for said game I would assume
all his scores would be done. But I guess even now your name has to be Wiebe for this sort of
treatment.

It's the one score which matters as it's the one on the scoreboard. If it stands even though you
can clearly see it is MAME and Billy is right there showing off the tape. Well, I don't know
what to say. TG's reputation is awful right now from what I've seen and this will only fuel it.
Newer gamers on YouTube and other sites see TG as a joke and plagued with false scores.
I've even seen one YouTuber who had a TG certificate for a game rip it up and bin it on
camera then sent a request in to have his scores removed.
Exhibit A - 000911
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 911/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This is TG's legacy to newer gamers who will ultimately be the new generation of E gamers
and TG users. Or not given their view on TG. It's very sad given the effort Jace has gone into
to make it what it is now.

It's so painfully obvious that all of the runs are MAME. No sound when there are sound issues
with MAME, staged board swap video, playing live at an event but playing in the other room
(wtf?), transitions, lies and treats when called out... What else do you need? A gummy
substance and Roy perhaps?

I guess Jace is just covering his back and trying not to get sued by only ditching scores with
evidence which is so solid Billy can't argue the case. I understand this as no one likes to be
sued. I just think it's such a shame Billy's bullying tactics are still allowing him to remain on
the score board.

I think I'm done with TG if these scores remain. It's nothing against Jace or the staff but I just
don't like this unlevel playing field and treatment. It's not fair on gamers past or present.

03-30-2018, 01:50 AM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

(snipped for arguments that avoid the 'smoking gun')

Until you Billy defenders can explain the following girder transitions in such as way that
anyone can reproduce the difference on original hardware with the Two-Bit converter that
Billy and his tech claimed they used for direct feed:

Attachment 53981

You've got exactly NOTHING to add. Look at these pictures, realize that your friend and/or
hero cheated, and stop coming up with excuses. It may take a while for it to sink in, maybe
even years. But sooner or later, you're going to realize one day that you've been duped by the
man. Either that or you already know he cheated and want to cover for him. Which is it?

03-30-2018, 01:57 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

[/COLOR][/FONT]

Exhibit A - 000912
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 912/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I think I'm done with TG if these scores remain. It's nothing against Jace or the staff but I just
don't like this unlevel playing field and treatment. It's not fair on gamers past or present.

To clarify, Jace claimed if it were the only score they could examine, he felt there wasn't
enough footage to make an informed decisions (which I disagree with). However, he did say
the surrounding evidence of the previous two scores and the staged board swap is indeed
enough to cause it to be removed as well should their final test results come back with no way
to reproduce the girder finger on real hardware.

So rest assured, the 1.062 is coming down as well.

03-30-2018, 02:42 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Attachment 53981

I am not understanding why they won't address this. It seems like they are avoiding it at all
costs.

03-30-2018, 02:59 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I am not understanding why they won't address this. It seems like they are avoiding it at all
costs.

I perfectly understand why they won't address it: Because they can't.

The closest we got was "If you aren't psychic enough to know exactly how Billy's MAME
was set up and recorded, then he didn't use MAME". That was the best they could do, which
of course did nothing at all to explain the MAME transitions in his tapes/

03-30-2018, 03:08 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I am not understanding why they won't address this. It seems like they are avoiding it at all
costs.
Exhibit A - 000913
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 913/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

They sort of adressed it, but with a lie. I know i brought this up several times but it offended
me so much i'll likely bring it up again. In Carlos P's video he shows other players arcade
screen, doesnt show billy or mame side by side, and just claims the other players are like
billy's when you can clearly see its not. So its been adressed not with fake evidence, not with
solid logic, but just outight lying and claiming to find that other players arcades draw like
billys when they dont. So no, it wasnt ignored, it was brought up and then outright lied about.

03-30-2018, 03:25 AM
Hotrod6045

Is it wrong to assume we could having a ruling by end of business today?

03-30-2018, 03:49 AM
bounty bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

Is it wrong to assume we could having a ruling by end of business today?

It wouldn’t be right to assume the decision is coming today. It’ll come when it comes.

Just as an aside. Is it a working day in the USA today? Here in the uk it is a bank holiday for
good Friday and not considered a working day.

03-30-2018, 04:19 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

Is it wrong to assume we could having a ruling by end of business today?

Since today is business day 10 and Jace responded to my post a couple days ago without an
amendment to that timeline, I think the assumption is founded. We'll see what actually
happens.

03-30-2018, 04:45 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterra

Besides which, methinks there was a mistaken conflation between "rotating" and "inverting"
in that exhaustive post.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

Frankly speaking, I personally am only morbidly curious to see new "evidence" arrive at this
point. I expect it to be doctored. I expect the doctored footage to be intended to satisfy a small
minority, and to be effective at doing so. Why do I think this, besides reasonable expectation?
Because Billy obviously has his own copy of the 1.06M score -- he famously showed it off,
unfortunately for him -- and if it had been legitimate, he would have provided it in full by
now. It's a great stroke of fortune that we've had access to all the footage we do. But it takes
Exhibit A - 000914
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 914/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

time to create a convincing forgery, so no full "1.06M tape" yet, and almost certainly never as
a complete recording available for all to scrutinize.

I agree that we'll never see a full 1.06M video since it wouldn't be in the interest of those that
have it to do so.

While it's not a full length tape of Billy's game, several weeks ago The Christian Pac-Man
chose to share a portion of his recorded play back from the Big Bang event that was of
extremely poor quality when compared to screen captures of the source video he showed
earlier in this thread. Several TG members asked if he could share the source video, including
Jace, but there were no further posts from The Christian Pac-Man until now, which as we
know didn't address this request. I know we have to be careful when we make assumptions
about why video evidence that has been alleged by the author to exonerate Billy hasn't
materialized in high quality form for community review - I'll simply say that it seems counter-
intuitive to share a lengthy post that proposes extensive testing of VCRs if one also has
(judging from earlier screen grabs) a decent quality video of the 1.06M play back that could
get to the heart of the matter.

03-30-2018, 05:38 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

So in other words: "These aren't the girders you're looking for" :-P

We can add that to "These aren't the tapes you're looking for".

03-30-2018, 06:46 AM
Rev John

Someone mentioned many posts ago the following video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=Fhbm...youtu.be&t=451

In this video from 2017 Billy Mitchell says that Video Games Magazine would publish high
scores and that "... they didn't require any verification, there were no rules, there were no
guidelines to follow, um, so we put it to the test, and we would send in a score of a hundred
million points on Berzerk, which would take about six months to do, and, they wouldn't
question the scores". So he's happily admitting to participating in fake high scores, which is
an astounding thing to hear in itself. Billy then goes on to suggest that the scores were a
shambles until they started to accept only Twin Galaxies scores.

Video Games Magazine Volume 1, numbers 1-12, and volume 2, numbers 1-8 are on the
internet at https://archive.org/details/videogamesmagazine and
http://www.digitpress.com/library/ma...s/video_games/ , so anyone can look further into
Billy's statements.

Exhibit A - 000915
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 915/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The high scores in the first issue were provided by none other than Walter Day, Twin
Galaxies. The second issue does not list ANY high scores but invites them, asking for name,
phone number, time taken (to the minute), and two witness statements ("one must be an
arcade / shop owner or operator"). The third issue lists some scores and suggests that they
were provided by Walter too. There is no score for Berzerk, however there is a score (Issue
#3, page 19) for Robotron - 100,525,800 by "Christopher Quade, Chapel Hill,N.C." It sounds
like this is the score Billy is referring to, and if so he (or "we") didn't waste any time, it looks
like this score was sent in at the first possible oppurtunity, and undermines Walter Day / Twin
Galaxies by offering up a fake score. I didn't see a Berzerk score in later issues.

In Issue #4 the Robotron score is up to 169m, other notable scores are a 72m Missile
Command score from Roy and a 6m Pac-man score.

Later issues attribute Walter Day as providing the scores, notable scores include 202m on
Robotron (Issue #7), and Missile Command score now down to 64m (Jeff Stueve). Walter
provides a score of 252m for Robotron in Issue #9. The Donkey Kong Junior scores slowly
creeps up issue after issue from 948,700 (Issue #6, Kent Farries) until Billy Mitchell's score
of 957,300 is listed (Issue #11).

So from what I can tell, in the video Billy is either making stuff up about submitting a fake
score, or he's bragging about getting a fake score accepted by a magazine that had previously
printed high scores in their first issue only - and those scores were all provided by Walter Day.

03-30-2018, 08:31 AM
Mitch Mitchell
Listen CLOSELY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev John

Someone mentioned many posts ago the following video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=Fhbm...youtu.be&t=451

The high scores in the first issue were provided by none other than Walter Day, Twin
Galaxies. The second issue does not list ANY high scores but invites them, asking for name,
phone number, time taken (to the minute), and two witness statements ("one must be an
arcade / shop owner or operator"). The third issue lists some scores and suggests that they
were provided by Walter too. There is no score for Berzerk, however there is a score (Issue
#3, page 19) for Robotron - 100,525,800 by "Christopher Quade, Chapel Hill,N.C." It sounds
like this is the score Billy is referring to, and if so he (or "we") didn't waste any time, it looks
like this score was sent in at the first possible oppurtunity, and undermines Walter Day / Twin
Exhibit A - 000916
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 916/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Galaxies by offering up a fake score. I didn't see a Berzerk score in later issues.

In Issue #4 the Robotron score is up to 169m, other notable scores are a 72m Missile
Command score from Roy and a 6m Pac-man score.

There's another side to this statement he is making in this video, Billy is discussing how this
magazine started posting scores as score keepers (in reality a competitor to Walter/TG in a
very real way) so Billy and his cronies sent in so many fraudulent scores to the magazine
(probably under fake names) the community disregarded the magazine's legitimacy as
accurate score keepers and it caused it to be shut down, and TG retained their status as the
sole authorities of scores.
---What Billy is actually admitting here is, he and his buddies attacked and sabotaged another
score keeping authority to keep TG relevant and on top; and were successful in their
opperation.---

03-30-2018, 08:52 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

this is complicated, if they were accepting fake scores they deserved to lose. I can see it both
ways. Was it cheating or was it testing? There's definitely some real hypocrisy though,
because team billy will say when dwayne suggested testing people with mame tapes that
proves everything he does untrustworthy -- just for considering the possibility of testing.
meanwhile billy does more than discuss the possibilty, he actually does the test, and not to
help find issues and fix them but to destroy and that doesnt result in equal condemnation of
him? if someone is gonna criticize dwayne for a passing comment they need to fault billy all
the more for the follow through, and if someone is fine with what billy did then surely what
dwayne wondered about is fine as well. such double standards on team billy

03-30-2018, 09:24 AM
GibGirl
Exhibit A - 000917
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 917/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Just because they were accepting scores that were false does not excuse the people submitting
those scores. It's possible for both to be in the wrong.

If a bank didn't lock up the money or even lock the doors overnight, it's clear they're setting
themselves up to be robbed. But robbing that bank would still be wrong.

03-30-2018, 10:16 AM
IAmNerdJock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Please see this post:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post960012

Today is the 10th business day

03-30-2018, 11:28 AM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

Today is the 10th business day

Ah, the irony of this timing!

And on TG's 10th "business" day, (even though it is considered a religious holiday with Good
Friday), the Jewish Passover happens to start tonight on the 10th day, back in time of the very
first Passover in Egypt. The 10th commandment from God to Moses read as follows - "Thou
shall not cheat, nor use MAME save states on Donkey Kong".

God has spoken...TIME IS UP!!!

03-30-2018, 11:30 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Exhibit A - 000918
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 918/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

...
The 10th commandment from God to Moses read as follows - "Thou shall not cheat, nor use
MAME save states on Donkey Kong".

God has spoken...TIME IS UP!!!

ah, those word are relevant today as they were when first spoken

03-30-2018, 03:22 PM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

At what point does Jace smash the tablets containing the Ten Recordments down and make us
Israelites believe in Almighty Score again?

HAHA! During this dispute, Jace failed to part the Red Cabinet. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqCTq3EeDcY

03-30-2018, 03:40 PM
Hotrod6045

At least we can tell it wasn't MAME. ;)

03-30-2018, 06:04 PM
Jace Hall
2 Attachment(s)
UPDATE - WITH VIDEO

Attachment 54026
Attachment 54027

Dear Community,

We were hoping to be finished by now but new information that we are in process of
discovering has added some small delays as we try to determine its relative significance.

Some of the new information relates to the fact that it does not seem to possible to directly
record to a VHS VCR the NTSC Donkey Kong Arcade video signal that comes out of the
TWO-BIT converter that was reportedly used by Billy to create his recordings. (More on this
below.)

Other revelations seems to indicate and confirm that no amount of external signal
manipulation or failed signal capture methods have any effect on whether or not we will see
an original arcade 5-girder transition screen in any lengthy recording of original arcade
gameplay - all testing, and all the countless youtube video examples we have scoured has
shown that we will see the 5-girder transition screen in an original arcade gameplay recording
at some point in every recording longer than 30 minutes. We continue to investigate but so far
there have been no identifiable exceptions.

This observation may play an important role because we can not find a single 5-girder
transition screen on any of the Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong score performances we have.
Please remember, while we are looking for the signature "3 girder-only-plus-finger" screen in
Exhibit A - 000919
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 919/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

original arcade output, we are also looking for unique original arcade signature transitions in
Billy's performances as well.

Some detail regarding the video signal -

We closely observed the presentation that Carlos Pinerio posted and we noticed some items:

The introduction of the Gigaware USB video Capture system. This did not make sense to us,
since the documented claim of Billy's score performance recording method was: ARCADE ->
TWO-BIT CONVERTER -> VHS RECORDER. However, since Carlos stated that he had all
of the meaningful original equipment that Billy used to record his performances, and we
know that Carlos' presentation was supported and supplied by Billy and his supporters, we
must accept that all the equipment that Carlos presented is what was there at the time. Perhaps
the Gigaware was present but not used.

Regardless, in Carlos' video, we noticed that when he demonstrates the TWO-BIT video
signal output, he plugs the output directly into a TV/Monitor. When he does that we see a
very clear signal. This is something that we are able to easily replicate when we do the same
thing with our TWO-BIT converter and our NTSC monitor. HOWEVER, what we do not
see is Carlos plug that TWO-BIT video out into an actual VHS recorder, and we do not
see the signal output from the VHS recorder. While this seems insignificant, we have
discovered that it is incredibly significant piece of information missing - Here is why:

We have yet to find any VHS recorder that will recognize the signal properly and record it in
full and proper color. Every VHS recorder records it in black and white.

The only thing we have found that can correct the signal are some (not all) analog-to-digital
conversion technologies, but using them to signal stabilize would then break the specific
analog chain required to produce a VHS recording according the the claimed recording
method.

All testing is currently showing that it may not be possible to create a recording that
looks like Billy Mitchell's using an original arcade machine, a TWO-BIT converter and
a VHS recorder only.

More to this point, even Carlos Pineiro, using Billy Mitchell's actual equipment, could not
produce a direct-feed recording that visually looked anything like what we see on Billy's
tapes. That doesnt make sense. Using Billy's equipment should produce a visual recording
that looks similar to Billy's - this variance is unexplained by Carlos.

For reference, here is a link to the direct-feed recording that Carlos posted publicly then later
made into a private and unlisted youtube link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKbkvqrzL5k

We noticed that it looks nothing like the Billy recordings, and instead is SEMI-
Exhibit A - 000920
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 920/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

MONOCHROMATIC in color and presentation. This is in line with our internal findings so
far.

We also suspect that the above direct feed recording that Carlos presented was likely not
captured directly from the TWO-BIT converter to a VHS recorder and then re-digitized for
upload. However, if it was, we would greatly appreciate Carlos showing us that pure analog
recording process exactly so we can further our investigation in this area.

Lastly, we noticed in Carlos' video presentation, he had a PC on top of the Donkey Kong
arcade machine, displaying a webcam feed, and not a direct-feed through the Gigaware
capture system. Since we have this hardware/software combination and have tested it, we
know that the Gigaware capture system can not successfully decipher the TWO-BIT NTSC
video signal, and it will only show and capture a BLACK AND WHITE display. We find it
unlikely that Carlos did not test this, as it only takes 2 seconds to plug the video out from the
TWO-BIT converter into the Gigaware input. He seemed to have no problem plugging it in to
the TV in his video. It was curious to us that he didn't plug it in to the Gigaware input device
that was sitting available to him less than 3 feet away.

Again, we hoped to have completed our investigation by now, however it is our job to really
look at as much as we reasonably can as closely as possible. We feel that we are nearing the
end of our due diligence process but it is going to require a little more time for comprehensive
purposes. Please bear with us and we appreciate everyone's patience.

Below is an informal video discussing and showing some of the above findings. Hopefully it
helps provide more substance to the conversation.

Exhibit A - 000921
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 921/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Informal Moment in Billy Mitchell Score Dispute Investigation

Play Video
Play
Loaded:
0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options

SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x

Fullscreen

This is a modal window.

Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1396763 Copy

Exhibit A - 000922
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 922/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

We continue to investigate.

03-30-2018, 06:48 PM
datagod

It is sad to say, but it seems to me that Twin Galaxies is extending the dispute in order to
gather more evidence that Billy's score is NOT valid.

Why not just close the dispute? Is there really not enough evidence yet?

I am waiting for that apology from Joel West and the delays are simply getting frustrating.

03-30-2018, 06:56 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Because he was using MAME.

Quote:

Because he was using MAME.

Quote:

This observation may play an important role because we can not find a single 5-girder
transition screen on any of the Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong score performances we have.

Because he was using MAME.

Quote:

All testing is currently showing that it may not be possible to create a recording that
looks like Billy Mitchell's using an original arcade machine, a TWO-BIT converter and
a VHS recorder only.

Because he was using MAME.

Quote:

Exhibit A - 000923
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 923/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Because Carlos wasn't using MAME.

Quote:

We noticed that it looks nothing like the Billy recordings...

Because Carlos wasn't using MAME.

Okay so I was stating the obvious, but I couldn't resist. :-P

03-30-2018, 06:58 PM
paramylodon

I think Jace is making this case as air tight as possible so that whenever the inevitable lawsuit
from Billy comes, it will be that much easier for a judge to dismiss the case.

Thanks for the update, Jace. The two-bit conundrum is fascinating, and I'm looking forward
to seeing what Team Billy's response is. I have a feeling a PC will soon enter their story. Your
thoroughness in this investigation has had the addition consequence of teaching people about
how arcade and recording equipment work, and it's been a good entry point for someone like
me trying to get into the hobby of arcade gaming. I've been playing a lot of Donkey Kong
partly because of this dispute!

03-30-2018, 07:23 PM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I think Jace is making this case as air tight as possible so that whenever the inevitable lawsuit
from Billy comes, it will be that much easier for a judge to dismiss the case.

A lawsuit on what grounds exactly?

The judge would be too busy laughing, to even render a decision.

03-30-2018, 07:31 PM
ionized_fallout

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

A lawsuit on what grounds exactly?
The judge would be too busy laughing, to even render a decision.

Only thing I can think of is a defamation of character suit, but IANAL.

03-30-2018, 07:38 PM
Marcade
Exhibit A - 000924
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 924/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionized_fallout

Only thing I can think of is a defamation of character suit, but IANAL.

I dont recall Jace, nor anyone at TG ever defaming Billy and his character.
The only ones I occasionally see doing that, are the weak cowards who choose to hide behind
their social media "safe space".

03-30-2018, 07:42 PM
ionized_fallout

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

If TG comes out and claims Billy as a cheater, Billy could claim defamation. That's really the
only thing I can think of.

03-30-2018, 07:57 PM
Ninglendo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKbkvqrzL5k

I watched the Carlos video and noticed that there is black and white on the "How High Can
You Get?" screen. When there was color the color and brightness was off as well if you
reference the video Jace posted and his tapes.

03-30-2018, 07:57 PM
RTM

As much as Billy's ego would likely result in his contemplating legal action if TG rules
unfavourably, it will ultimately fail. Consider the following...

-> When Olympic sprinter Marion Jones was stripped of her medals due to cheating with
drugs, she lost endorsements galore and never launched a lawsuit against the IOC

-> Same for Lance Armstrong when he was stripped of his victories in the Tour de France due
to cheating

Both of these well known athletes were caught cheating...for years...and recognition was
stripped retroactively and 3rd party income dried up immediately from endorsements

-> Most recently, Lindsay ("the Trainwreck") Lohan had her case against Take Two
Interactive thrown out by high-level court, squashing her claim that she was represented by a
character in a GTA title without her permission

-> Finally, Billy himself lost a legal challenge against a cartoon character which he felt was a
representation of himself

Different situations, and in all cases either legal actions were quashed or the person found
guilty of cheating declined to press forth with legal action, likely at the advice of their
Exhibit A - 000925
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 925/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

respective management teams.

While I can envision a number of scenarios under which Bill would possibly launch legal
action, all would ultimately fail.

-> Defamation of character - if you are found to have cheated, there is no one at fault but
yourself for that

-> Loss of or diminished future income opportunities - most companies tend to distance
themselves from such individuals...just look at Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa, never mind
Lance Armstrong, after their own cheating scandals became public

-> Loss of current revenue - you can't sue because you lost your halo in the public eye...just
look at Woody Allen, Jared Fogel, Tiger Wood and many others once the proverbial s*** hit
the fan in the newspapers

-> That leaves personal/professional "vendetta" type claims against TG and/or individuals - I
cannot think of one positive outcome by suing an entity or person because they uncovered a
truth about you.

Fortunately for Billy, there were a number of people who signed off on and accepted the
"stock renumeration offer" that Joel West, on behalf of Walter, sent on Dec30/14 to both
myself and a number of others (possibly as many as 16 or 17 others) which (if they accepted)
effectively blocked them from publicly voicing any negative opinions against TG, Walter or
Billy for a ten year period. This "hush money" attempt might have succeeded with
minimizing future damage control concerns, but it was not a complete success as one person
for sure did not sign it (myself).

03-30-2018, 07:58 PM
Ninglendo

"his tapes" is referring to Billy's tapes

03-30-2018, 08:03 PM
RTM

The only way that I see Billy possibly succeeding at launching a lawsuit is if someone were to
parody his quote dating back to 1999 that "Work is for people who don't play video games".

I am not sure if he trademarked it, but should someone decide to do a mock-up of the quote
and, for example, cross-out the word "work" and replace it with "cheating", that could most
certainly be challenged...assuming he trade-marked the phrase.

If he did NOT trademark the phrase, then while by itself it could not be legally challenged, it
COULD if it were juxtaposed next to either his image or if his name was mentioned alongside
as the author of the quote. Such a challenge might not win, but at least it would not be
summarily tossed out at inception by a judge.

03-30-2018, 08:07 PM
paramylodon

You have to remember the goal of lawsuits isn't always necessarily to win. Often times the
intention is to place a financial burden on the defendant such that it forces the defendant to
settle before a judge gets a chance to dismiss the case. Even the threat of legal action can
intimidate someone, who may not have the resources to hire a lawyer, into silence or
Exhibit A - 000926
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 926/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

withdrawal.

Think of the case with Apollo Legend. Billy sent his lawyers after him and it effectively
silenced him. Apollo Legend hasn't said a peep since he went to the Billy Mitchell event.

I'm not saying that Twin Galaxies doesn't have the resources to fight a lawsuit. It can just take
a while between the initiation of a frivolous lawsuit and the inevitable judge dismissal.

03-30-2018, 08:26 PM
datagod

Has anyone heard from Roy Schiltd regarding this dispute? I wonder what he has to say.

03-30-2018, 08:38 PM
The Evener

The update is much appreciated. Most interesting for me is that it highlights another avenue
for TG to assess all the claimed performances in addition to the focus on screen transitions.
This is particularly relevant for the 1.062 million score since it's not necessary to view more
than a few moments of Timmell's and The Christian Pac-Man's videos to confirm that the
color's rendered on the high score playback cleave closely to the arcade. Given that TG is
obtaining B&W and semi-monochromatic results from using the same capture set-up outlined
by Robert Childs on behalf of Billy, TG's results point to another piece of evidence
confirming that the alleged high score achievement was not arcade, and therefore should be
removed.

I'd like to underline this last point - if Billy or those speaking on his behalf revise their
account of the direct feed set-up yet again to include additional computer
capture/manipulation in reaction to TG's findings, we should remember Robert Childs'
reassurance and explanation about how the Boomer scores were recorded - "The converter
board does its job translating RGB to NTSC which goes to the VCR and is recorded as
the finalized media. There is NO possibility of an advantage to the player using this
method of recording." Once use of a computer and related devices are introduced in this
chain, the claim that there is no possibility of an advantage to the player is severely
compromised.

03-30-2018, 08:46 PM
brotherBox

I have a question about the video that you uploaded, Jace, and perhaps a suggestion. When
you did the second-to-last experiment, going from the TWO-BIT converter into the monitor,
capturing its output onto VHS and then playing it back on the monitor, what originally
showed up on the monitor had the colours messed up. However, what appears on the tape is
black and white as evidenced when you played the tape back on the monitor.

Would this not indicate a strangeness about the monitor or the VHS as well? After all, the
monitor does show a (messed up) colour signal, but what arrives at the VHS has no colour. To
me, there's only two options here: either the monitor does not output the signal that it receives
(because a B&W signal arrives at the VHS) or the VHS does not accept colour inputs. Both of
these conclusions seem far-fetched, but just to resolve some unknowns and rule out the
possibility of technical errors under less conspicuous circumstances I would suggest that the
original monitor hooked up to the Two-Bit converter has its output displayed on another
monitor if you have the option to do that.

Essentially the setup would be Arcade => Two-Bit => Monitor => Second Monitor. This way
Exhibit A - 000927
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 927/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

we see what the output of the first monitor looks like, to check if it changes the signal it puts
out. After that, I suggest that the VHS is capable of recording a regular incoming NTSC
signal.

I am completely aware that these suggestions seem pedantic, but it may be wise to have these
facts established to proceed with as many known facts about the setup as possible.

03-30-2018, 10:00 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by brotherBox

Would this not indicate a strangeness about the monitor or the VHS as well?

No, it just means that the monitor is a bit more tolerant of nonstandard video signals than the
VCR is. DK boardsets have "highly non-standard sync pulses" which many NTSC devices
don't like, according to Mark Spaeth. If Jrok's sync cleaner device were added into the chain it
would probably fix the issue - https://gatorcade.com/product/sync-cleaner/

Quote:

Essentially the setup would be Arcade => Two-Bit => Monitor => Second Monitor. This way
we see what the output of the first monitor looks like, to check if it changes the signal it puts
out.

This doesn't make sense. Monitors don't output a video signal. Their output is what you see on
the screen (i.e., the video signal drives the electron guns which energize the phosphors which
coat the screen, which creates the images that you see on the screen). The only way to have
two monitors display the same video signal simultaneously is to split the video signal before it
reaches the monitor.

03-30-2018, 10:05 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by brotherBox

No there are more than two options. The 3rd option is that there is nothing wrong with the
monitor or the VHS recorder and the incoming signal is non-standard, therefore these devices
are doing their best to decipher what they can - which will result in inconsistent
interpretations.

Exhibit A - 000928
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 928/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Please remember that these findings are also checked and confirmed by an independent 3rd
party @YesAffinity ) who is also running similar tests with a TWO-BIT recorder.

In general I understand what you are saying however this point is additionally eliminated
within the short video I posted when I take the video signal directly out of the arcade machine
from the TWO-BIT recorder and plug it into the Gigaware PC capture system and show that
the signal coming in there is also interpreted as BLACK AND WHITE. So just from that
alone you can determine that the VCR is not unique in its recording and interpretation of the
incoming signal.

Quote:

Essentially the setup would be Arcade => Two-Bit => Monitor => Second Monitor. This way
we see what the output of the first monitor looks like, to check if it changes the signal it puts
out. After that, I suggest that the VHS is capable of recording a regular incoming NTSC
signal.

Nothing in the signal pathway has the technology to change the signal (beyond introducing
noise) - what you are witnessing is how different devices interpret the SAME signal - and
since the signal is way outside of standard NTSC, we are getting very different
interpretations. So far no ANALOG recording system we have been able to find has been able
to interpret the signal in full color. Most importantly, even Carlos Pineiro has not shown the
ability to record the TWO-BIT signal successfully in full color on to VHS tape with the
original hardware converter and equipment claimed to have been used by Billy himself.

This is a potentially important piece of additional evidence that we want to explore and
confirm a bit further, along with some other experimentation that @YesAffinity is doing that
we feel is required before coming to any final decision in this matter.

03-30-2018, 10:11 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

We would love to add the sync-cleaner to the chain (and may do so later for our own needs)
but we can't add it now because that is not what the claimed scenario was for Billy's actual
recordings. We are trying to reproduce the testing scenario as closely as we reasonably can.

Quote:

Our monitors are professional grade so they do in fact have pass-thru output on them for each
input they have - however you are correct that what you see on the monitor screen is exactly
Exhibit A - 000929
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 929/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

what is being passed-thru.

03-30-2018, 10:18 PM
YesAffinity

Sorry to break this one early, before a full video upload is ready but I shared this screen grab
with Jace and it seems to further increase the divide between the billy tapes and arcade
hardware. Game board modified to flip screen with a switch per Christian pac mans post
yesterday and the brasington reference. I said "hey look, this is interesting, 4 girders when the
image is flipped". Jace pointed out that this does not match what is in the 1.04 and 1.05 tapes.
Attachment 54029

03-30-2018, 10:22 PM
YesAffinity

Let's try that again...

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/3...girders.md.png

03-30-2018, 10:26 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Indeed.

Quote:

Right, but that's electrically the exact same thing as spitting the signal before the monitor such
as with RCA Y-adapter cables; it's just built-in which makes it more convenient.

03-30-2018, 10:41 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Let's try that again...

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/3...girders.md.png

Yes.

Chris further explored @The Christian Pac-Man line of questioning for comprehensive
purposes - where it has been proposed that perhaps Billy Mitchell played on a PCB modified
"flipped" Original DK Arcade Machine, and that would account for why the orientation
Exhibit A - 000930
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 930/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

deviates (is 180 degrees flipped) from known direct-feed recordings using the same TWO-
BIT converter.

For reference there are a few ways to "flip" the display screen and they are described at this
link:

http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/flip/

Most of the methods involve making changes outside of the DK PCB, which would have no
potential impact on main board rasterization - however there is a method that involves
modifying the DK PCB itself to produce a 180 degree rotated image - (see it here:
http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/flip/dk.shtml ) and this method is the one that Chris
Gleed explored.

Chris demonstrated that the girder transition frame results from the modification on original
DK hardware are in fact different from unmodified original DK hardware results. The results
are as you see in the image above, showing a partial-4-girder set.

This is interesting because it shows that the pathway of the PCB strap modification that flips
the screen is likely before the PCB amplifies the signal out to the inverter (or monitor).

In the flipped position, the rasterization is effectively drawing the same amount of data
(screen space) but from the reverse direction - so the same amount of screen space (basically
diagonal bottom-to-top instead of top-to-bottom) is only showing the 4 - girders (or whatever
it would be going in that direction in 1/60th of a second.)

Upon examining the provided screenshot, it was noticed that the "right" side of the girder
game screen is not completed in rasterization at all yet (from left-to-right) - What this seems
to indicate is that this test may literally prove that Billy absolutely did not play on a DK board
that was modified in this way because all of his tapes show the "right" side of rasterization
ahead of the "left" side.

Very helpful data has been provided by @YesAffinity - we look forward to more details of his
findings.

03-30-2018, 11:14 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

IMPORTANT NOTE -

It should also be noted that since this early test seems to indicate that Billy did not play on a
DK board that was modified in this specific way, it also means that the 180 degree screen
rotation must have been the result of a PC being involved in the recording or rendering
Exhibit A - 000931
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 931/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

process.

This can be concluded because all other documented methods of screen rotation are achieved
outside of the DK PCB, by either physically rotating a tv monitor or swapping the yoke wires
on the monitor. Both of these methods have zero impact on the direct-feed set up that Billy
claims to have used, because the TWO-BIT converter was plugged into the DK Inverter board
on the original DK arcade machine, and the auxiliary output on the Inverter board is a PASS-
THRU connection from the PCB.

That means whatever orientation the DK PCB is outputting, is being passed-thru the inverter
directly to the TWO-BIT converter and then to the VHS recorder. There is no place for the
image to have been "flipped."

So with further testing, if this holds true, it will definitively prove PC involvement in the
score recording.

Hopefully this will help satisfy @The Christian Pac-Man concerns about this issue. We
appreciate him bringing the subject up with such passion as it has helped to motivate even
more comprehensive data to be collected.

It must be pointed out that the standalone fact that a PC could have been involved in the
recording process still does not necessarily mean that the performance itself is not valid
original arcade gameplay.

03-31-2018, 12:35 AM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

IMPORTANT NOTE -
It must be pointed out that the standalone fact that a PC could have been involved in the
recording process still does not necessarily mean that the performance itself is not valid
original arcade gameplay.

I think we need to question the definition of "direct feed" or "direct capture." Presenting a
tape saying that it is a direct feed recording is quite misleading in Billy's case. We know
NOW that there was a computer involved. For me "direct" means without any intermediary
steps. Using a computer and then outputting the result to a VCR should not be classified as
"direct." All of this just screams "hidden motives" and is very fishy/flaky ... as fishy as that
infamous board swap.
Also, Billy saying over and over again that he is the least tech guy out there is another
fishy/flaky case. Saying that was not about being humble, but having something to hide/cover
up. Kind of a preemptive strike, in my opinion.

03-31-2018, 12:48 AM
erockbrox

I have a question. Why can't Jace just ask Billy himself if the Donkey Kong score is legit or
not? Something like this. "Hey, man is this score legit?". Why can't this happen?

I say just remove Billy's current Donkey Kong score and then ask Billy to preform a new
score. It could really be that simple. Why not just move forward instead of dwelling on the
past.
Exhibit A - 000932
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 932/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

We all know Billy's score in the King of Kong movie was fishy and he probably faked a score
as a stunt for the documentary. To be honest this actually made the documentary more
entertaining. But there is a time to joke and a time to be serious.

So seriously, just remove the score in question and ask him to preform a new one. Case
closed. It doesn't have to drag on for years.

REMOVE BILLY'S SCORE AND ASK HIM TO PREFORM A NEW ONE.

This is the best solution in my opinion.

03-31-2018, 12:59 AM
EVN

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

REMOVE BILLY'S SCORE AND ASK HIM TO PREFORM A NEW ONE.

If he could don't you think he already would have by now?

03-31-2018, 01:32 AM
Godfather

....why are people so gullible. #GirderGate

2 things are happening here. Either Billy is lying or he is being arrogant.

if he is lying, he knows the window is closing and he's going to employ as many people as he
can to exonerate him. He will throw out little bread crumbs here or there. "here's the hardware
i used" ..hmm didn't produce the results "oh i was actually using this hardware in the set up.."
STALL tactic after STALL TACTIC hoping somewhere down the daisy chain rope of *****
someone can produce the results of arcade hardware.

JACE the TG poster boy is done! The house that Billy Mitchell built no longer exists. You're
the new owner and you discovered the skeletons in the closet and it's time to throw them out,
and detach yourself from this poostorm of lies!

If Billy is arrogant, that's not enough to claim innocence. he was a head TG referee, he may
not of known how arcade hardware operates but he knows what a PCB is, he knew the
submission rules. A picture of a board needed to be taken immediately after completing a
score in one shot. IF he didn't do that because he just assumed it was arcade hardware then he
should accept that the score is invalid to TG submission standards that he helped implement.
WHICH he isn't! why because he is lying. and he is stalling.

im all for being thorough. i really am and i appreciate how it's being done. BUT you asked
Team Billy to produce the setup and they did. IT should be done from there, quit adding more
pieces, it will never end. Billy will continue to get bookings and continue to milk the cash
cow he's built off his lies on TG coat tails. Remove his scores. honor the people who should
have received the accolades.

Come on Jace!!! cut to the chase!

03-31-2018, 02:52 AM Exhibit A - 000933

file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 933/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Lukahna

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I have a question. Why can't Jace just ask Billy himself if the Donkey Kong score is legit or
not? Something like this. "Hey, man is this score legit?". Why can't this happen?

A fair enough question, but if you think about it, it doesn't prove anything:

"Did you murder your wife?"

"No."
"Ok."
"I also sent her to some guy at Nintendo. Twice!"

Quote:

REMOVE BILLY'S SCORE AND ASK HIM TO PREFORM A NEW ONE.

Again, this doesn't prove anything. Whether Billy can score 1M+ on real DK hardware is
irrelevant to the question of whether he cheated in 2010.

Imagine robbing, say, $1.062M from a bank, living on the interest for years at your victims'
expense (customers of the same bank who actually earned $1M+ legitimately, before you
did). Just when you get found out and are about to get thrown in prison, ask the judge if it'd be
cool if you could go out and earn $1M for real this time, instead of being punished.

But even more to the point, Jace/TG have already said something (paraphrased, from
memory) along the lines of, "that would be irrelevant to this dispute."

(This has been discussed numerous times during this dispute thread, but I recognize not
everyone will have been following this dispute from day 1.)

03-31-2018, 03:50 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by omega175

Very good point, and agree whole-heartedly. Even back in 2010 the TG community was
skeptical of another "direct feed" submission from Billy since, when combined with the cover
of a TG referee in attendance, it opened the process to abuse.

Anticipating such a reaction, Billy and Robert recorded on-site videos from Boomers arcade
Exhibit A - 000934
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 934/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

meant to demonstrate that performances were 1) conducted in public, open to the scrutiny of a
public venue, and 2) conducted on authentic arcade hardware with an original unmodified
PCB, with the performance copied straight to VHS to avoid accusations of game play
manipulation. Eight years go, if Billy had confessed moments after the PCB swap video
dropped, "yeah, that whole part about a real-time board swap was actually staged," or Robert
stepped up and said "actually, my direct capture method involves use of a computer," the
firestorm would have been so great that Billy's score might have been taken down right then
and there. To have this information emerge eight years later only magnifies its significance.
The potential for manipulation and abuse if the capture chain introduced a computer was
noted by Robert Childs himself when he emphasized that Billy's 1.062M direct feed went
straight from the arcade game to the VCR, thereby avoiding any "advantage" to the player. In
that vein, I find TG's confirmation of computer use in the processing of Billy's game play
very significant.

03-31-2018, 04:16 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

So seriously, just remove the score in question and ask him to preform a new one. Case
closed. It doesn't have to drag on for years.

I've heard similar advice given to players, but only in the context of submitting a score for
adjudication and that's a completely different context. The submissions are presented in good
faith, but sometimes a player forgets to include a required verification element - in those
situations, I've read people write "I've got to vote no on this, but I encourage you to do
another run with the required element." That said, if outright cheating is identified in the
adjudication process or years later after the score has been posted, TG has removed and
banned that player.

No one would believe that Billy "accidentally" deceived the community by passing off a
MAME performance as an original hardware score on three separate occasions and therefore
merited an invitation to throw up a new score instead, no questions asked.

03-31-2018, 04:42 AM
Hotrod6045

At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if Team Billy claimed he played the game with the arcade
cabinet located in Donkey Kong 64's Frantic Factory.

03-31-2018, 04:51 AM
YesAffinity

The full video with modified game board providing a switch at the board to manually flip the
video output. Walk through of hardware from start to 5:40, direct feed gameplay from 5:40
on.

https://youtu.be/_JF1FPsYolY

I'm a one-man show here, so please forgive any less-than-fluid aspects of the walk-through
(like when I fumble with the composite cable swap from plasma to video processor :/ ).

03-31-2018, 05:25 AM
rotunda
Exhibit A - 000935
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 935/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Not sure if this is helpful information but if the video signal is black and white this has
happened to me before when using a mod chipped PS1 to play NTSC games in my PAL
region.

If you use a normal composite/scart cable it will display in black and white only and some
parts will appear fuzzy and weird.

Double check all the hardware is NTSC and/or the capture settings are not set to PAL. I'm
sure this likely isn't the issue but thought I would mention it anyway.

03-31-2018, 05:31 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I have a question. Why can't Jace just ask Billy himself if the Donkey Kong score is legit or
not? Something like this. "Hey, man is this score legit?". Why can't this happen?

I say just remove Billy's current Donkey Kong score and then ask Billy to preform a new
score. It could really be that simple. Why not just move forward instead of dwelling on the
past.

You really have no idea how this all works do you? It doesn't matter if Billy says the score is
legit. The evidence is clearly pointing towards him having used MAME to submit supposed
arcade scores.

03-31-2018, 05:37 AM
rotunda

Ok ignore my previous statement i put that out before seeing Jace's video.

Recording in B & W but displaying in over saturated colour.... That is bizare and shows how
unable the 2 BIT is at processing this signal.

It really is case closed at this point especially with the 5 girder transition captured so easily.

Thanks for all the effort Jace.

03-31-2018, 05:54 AM
YesAffinity

^I had actually made this mistake on a first attempt of recording to VHS and sending the tapes
to Jace. My Wei-Ya NTSC-to-RGB encoder had been unknowingly set to PAL. Tapes were all
black and white, and I didn't realize it before sending them off.

But, on these Two Bit encoders, you have to physically modify them to change them to PAL -
replace the crystal and move a jumper. They are set to NTSC currently.

Nothing else in my chain has region change capability. The VCR is NTSC, my plasma is
NTSC (both handle the signal as black/white). The more advanced devices, like video
processor and newer TV's that seem to handle the signal better, presumably have some
correction mechanisms built into their digitization processes.

03-31-2018, 05:56 AM
Exhibit A - 000936
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 936/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I have a question. Why can't Jace just ask Billy himself if the Donkey Kong score is legit or
not? Something like this. "Hey, man is this score legit?". Why can't this happen?

I say just remove Billy's current Donkey Kong score and then ask Billy to preform a new
score. It could really be that simple. Why not just move forward instead of dwelling on the
past.

Point 1: As others have pointed out, asking the question is pointless if Billy denies it. Imagine
asking if OJ murdered his ex-wife and Ron Goldman and he says "no". Whelp, guess he
didn't, right?

Point 2: Imagine such a proposal to Lance Armstrong back when he got stripped of his titles.
"Oh hey, so we figured out you were cheating the whole time. But I tell you what, we'll just
set those races aside and let you try again." Uhh no. Instead, they banned him for life. That's
the punishment for cheating in competitive sports. It's the exact same punishment for cheating
in competitive video gaming venues.

03-31-2018, 05:58 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

The more advanced devices, like video processor and newer TV's that seem to handle the
signal better, presumably have some correction mechanisms built into their digitization
processes.

More modern devices are going to have more tolerance for crappier signals. They have to be
able to interpret from a million different devices with different signal quirks.

03-31-2018, 06:04 AM
FBX

Question to Jace:

I want to state from the start that is is truly awesome all the work you and your crew are doing
to fully resolve the case against Billy. However, one has to ask:

At what point do you stop chasing all the wild and intentionally obstructive theories put out
by Billy defenders? What of they just keep going and going, causing you to spend time
debunking them indefinitely? Isn't there a point where you have to step back and say "Enough
is enough. The man's tapes are not original arcade. End of story"? Can you tell us when the
point finally is? Because to be honest, after your and Chris's latest findings, the case should be
over. I mean right now it should be wrapped up.

And I don't mean say this as a rush to judgement (even though I did rush to judgement the
moment I saw the girder transitions in Billy's Tapes). Rather instead, this case has, with the
latest findings, become exhaustive to a degree beyond all reasonable expectation. Isn't it time
to stop chasing their wild gooses?
Exhibit A - 000937
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 937/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-31-2018, 06:06 AM
YesAffinity

All right guys, some more screen grabs and comparisons. The upside down images are the
flipped images. I show them in the progression as upside down, for comparison's sake. If you
are looking at the same monitor with the image "normal" or "flipped", this is the progression
you should see. I'm not sure if the screen is still drawing right to left in the "flipped" scenario
- right to left as the screen would be oriented as you look at it here. The barrel stage seems to
indicate yes, and that's why the 4 girders still render on that side of the screen. However, the
sliding door effect seems to be going the opposite direction, particularly on some of the outro
transitions.

Hope I'm making sense here. I know what I'm trying to say, but not sure I'm saying it
intelligibly. At any rate, some more interesting stuff as it relates to Billy tapes vs. arcade
hardware.

The first and last progressions below (pie level progression and 2nd barrel barrel level
progression) are outro transitions, and are in the order that the screens would appear, even
though they are upside down. I just looked at that and thought "that might be confusing".

Please draw your own conclusions.

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/31/pie-exit.md.png

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/3...d-clear.md.png

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/31/pie-intro.md.png

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/31/barrel.md.png

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/3...el-exit.md.png

03-31-2018, 06:37 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Hope I'm making sense here. I know what I'm trying to say, but not sure I'm saying it
intelligibly. At any rate, some more interesting stuff as it relates to Billy tapes vs. arcade
Exhibit A - 000938
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 938/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

hardware.

Please draw your own conclusions.

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/31/pie-exit.md.png

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/3...d-clear.md.png

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/31/pie-intro.md.png

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/31/barrel.md.png

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/03/3...el-exit.md.png

So, when you modify the board itself it causes 4 girders instead of 5? Is that something that
can be explored further to try to make it three girders?

03-31-2018, 06:53 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

So, when you modify the board itself it causes 4 girders instead of 5? Is that something that
can be explored further to try to make it three girders?

If you notice in the inverted pics, the 4 girders image has shortened the drawing of the
incomplete ones. This means even if you could further hack the board to show 3 girders on
that frame, the third girder will look nothing like it does in Billy's tapes. It will be
considerably short, and certainly will not have a finger. This is of course even entertaining the
idea to begin with.

03-31-2018, 06:56 AM
Hotrod6045

Wouldn't that mean that the board was modified in such a way, in order to provide direct
video feed, as to render the result invalid?*

*If such a modification wasn't accepted by TG as legal

03-31-2018, 07:16 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrod6045

Exhibit A - 000939
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 939/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Wouldn't that mean that the board was modified in such a way, in order to provide direct
video feed, as to render the result invalid?*

*If such a modification wasn't accepted by TG as legal

The history around DK hardware is very strict - messing with the PCB in this way would have
invalidated the score adjudication. No one has ever indicated that Billy (himself included)
played on anything but stock DK arcade hardware, so this was purely a "what if" experiment
to see if flipping/inverting video output could produce MAME screen transitions on arcade
hardware that would match what's found in Billy's performances - it was floated by someone
as a possible explanation. Result: the transitions don't match MAME/Billy's tapes.

03-31-2018, 07:21 AM
jerky
1 Attachment(s)
You know...if you flip a DK machine upside down...stand on your left leg...and cross your eyes...it might
look like MAME...

All the hard work is appreciated, but I think the case was made 200+ pages ago...sigh.

Attachment 54064

03-31-2018, 07:24 AM
Snowflake

First, with the timeline, I dont want my question/comment being confused. I think what
@YesAffinity has been providing is great. He continues to find more evidence against billy,
and the web of lies in response continues to dig billy's hole even deeper.

To those who are already 100% sure billy cheated, well they cant be more so so its hard to see
the point. I think this is useful though for some people who still manage to delude themselves.
Remember humans arent pure good/pure evil, pure emotion/pure logic, we're a spectrum.
Some billy supporters will believe him no matter what, heck I got into an argument with one
who claimed billy never claimed to get the board verfified, even though billy himself said it
now that the new angle is maybe he played on mame withou realizing it. Thats right, billy
himself can say "I did this" and some of his supporters will respond "nuh uh billy didnt do
that, i dont care if billly himself said he did that, i dont believe it". Other supporters though I
think have limits on how far they can delude themselves, so this can help there.

All that said though, team billy seems to have no limits on changing their story. As
entertaining as it is to see new holes and new contradictions in each iteration of their defense,
surely this cant be allowed to go on forever. Lies have been proven multiple times now. So I
guess i'm just curious, is there a limit to how many new stories from team billy you're willing
to check out?

At what point do you say "Ok billy, this is the last time you get to change your story, so make
it good, cause if the next thing you say also falls apart, its over"

03-31-2018, 08:24 AM
The Christian Pac-Man

with respect to this dispute but it seems people have short memories and need to be
reminded.
I then ran the VHS composite output played from another VCR back into the original
and the display differed from both the digital and original VHS. This shouldn't be a
surprise to anyone, but since much of this dispute has been focused on what is and
isn't displayed and what presumably can or cannot appear in playback, this should
be kept in mind because the tapes which are in TG's possession are VHS copies
made from a VHS original., to which no one apparently has access or knows where
to find it.
I plan on looking at other scenarios when I get time. Is it possible that the composite
video out was run through a RF modulator for transfer through a coxial cable? One of
the VCRs I have has a composite out, but the signal must come in through coax. Will
the frame details from the playback of a recorded VHS tape be the same from VCR
to VCR? I'm not going to automatically assume that it will. There has been far too
many assumptions made without verification. I have also seen dogmatic assertions,
purportedly based on definitive proof, proven false.

03-31-2018, 08:30 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

I recorded clips of Donkey Kong a few days ago at a local arcade. It was recorded on
digital 8mm tape. Subsequently, I ran composite video out directly to composite video
in on a VCR. The signal, as recorded to VHS, displays differently in playback than
what is found with the digital recording. This fact was established some time back
with respect to this dispute but it seems people have short memories and need to be
reminded.
I then ran the VHS composite output played from another VCR back into the original
and the display differed from both the digital and original VHS. This shouldn't be a
surprise to anyone, but since much of this dispute has been focused on what is and
isn't displayed and what presumably can or cannot appear in playback, this should
be kept in mind because the tapes which are in TG's possession are VHS copies
made from a VHS original., to which no one apparently has access or knows where
to find it.
I plan on looking at other scenarios when I get time. Is it possible that the composite
video out was run through a RF modulator for transfer through a coxial cable? One of
the VCRs I have has a composite out, but the signal must come in through coax. Will
the frame details from the playback of a recorded VHS tape be the same from VCR
to VCR? I'm not going to automatically assume that it will. There has been far too
many assumptions made without verification. I have also seen dogmatic assertions,
purportedly based on definitive proof, proven false.

No matter what kind of scenarios we have tried there is no way to replicate the 3 girder
transition that looks to be an exact match for MAME. Any ideas on how to do that?

03-31-2018, 08:38 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Exhibit A - 000941
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 941/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

I dont think anyone is forgetting what you found, but you seem to be forgetting the response. I
will reiterate though. Everyone understands a copy of a copy isnt perfect. The issue with
billy's tape isnt that they got a little blurry and so dont look exactly as you would normally
expect. The issue is, billy's perfromance draws signficantly different images, and those
images exactly match mame. This is not one or two pixes missing. This different shapes. And
againm as if the completely different shapes arent enough, even if you could somehow
explain a copy of a copy making random distortions, what are the odds that the distortions
from an arcade would exactly match mame?

At some point, you might as well claim his game of donkey kong might actually be pacman,
and a copy of a copy of pacman will look donkey kong.

Trying to establsih a copy of a copy is not perfect is something everyone already agrees with
you on and so is a waste of time. Now, if you can find some way that a copy of a copy will
result in arcade looking like mame, then yes, that would be huge, but i wont be holding my
breath

03-31-2018, 08:42 AM
YesAffinity

And to be clear, there have been MANY scenarios and configurations tested. Coax/RF was
not noted as being part of the original capture chain, as describe by Robert Childs.

Recording an arcade monitor with an external camera and then doing anything with it, as
explained many many many times, is a pointless exercise because we are looking to recreate
the original scenario that could have created what appears on the Billy Mitchell tapes and
DOES NOT MATCH ARCADE HARDWARE OUTPUT. The Billy Mitchell tapes are
DIRECT FEED, not recorded by an external camera.

Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

03-31-2018, 08:45 AM
RTM
Exhibit A - 000942
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 942/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by erockbrox

I have a question. Why can't Jace just ask Billy himself if the Donkey Kong score is legit or
not? Something like this. "Hey, man is this score legit?". Why can't this happen?

I say just remove Billy's current Donkey Kong score and then ask Billy to preform a new
score. It could really be that simple. Why not just move forward instead of dwelling on the
past.

So seriously, just remove the score in question and ask him to preform a new one. Case
closed. It doesn't have to drag on for years.

REMOVE BILLY'S SCORE AND ASK HIM TO PREFORM A NEW ONE.

This is the best solution in my opinion.

RTM REPLY - I agree, on more than one ground. Bill's performances which he aborted or
dumped points on indicated a likely low-1.1M conclusion which is at a higher skillset than a
1.06M performance. Should be a cakewalk for such a player to achieve even a 1.06M again as
he walked away from at least two potential 1.1M+ performances already.

03-31-2018, 08:47 AM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

He had a chance at the Kong Off. He didn't do that great.

03-31-2018, 08:48 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godfather

If Billy is arrogant, that's not enough to claim innocence. he was a head TG referee, he may
not of known how arcade hardware operates but he knows what a PCB is, he knew the
submission rules

RTM REPLY - Billy was never a referee, let alone head referee...but he certainly had an
Exhibit A - 000943
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 943/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

open door to advice from the TG founder who actually crafted the rules for submission of an
arcade performance, so ignorance of the law does not apply here.

03-31-2018, 08:52 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

He had a chance at the Kong Off. He didn't do that great.

This provides an anecdote as to why such a thing is pointless for proof.

Before the kong off, billy supporters were predicting he would break a million, prove
everyone wrong, and make us "eat crow". I have no doubt if he did break a million that would
have been held up as proof he's innocent, on the flip side though, when he failed to get the
million that wasnt seen as proof he cheated (nor should it be, just pointing out the double
standard).

Thats the problem with a meaningless test like this, if it goes the way people want, its treated
as proof, if it doesnt go the way thats wanted its dismissed as meaningless. A test which is
only considered valid if it gives the answer you want is no real test.

03-31-2018, 09:03 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

Could you upload these clips? I don't understand the nature of the differences you're
citing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

I then ran the VHS composite output played from another VCR back into the original and the
display differed from both the digital and original VHS. This shouldn't be a surprise to
anyone, but since much of this dispute has been focused on what is and isn't displayed and
what presumably can or cannot appear in playback, this should be kept in mind because the
tapes which are in TG's possession are VHS copies made from a VHS original., to which no
one apparently has access or knows where to find it.

To clarify, is it your claim that a single generation copy of a direct feed DK arcade
game play will result in a recording that changes arcade screen transitions into ones

Exhibit A - 000944
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 944/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

that match MAME screen transitions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

I plan on looking at other scenarios when I get time. Is it possible that the composite video out
was run through a RF modulator for transfer through a coxial cable? One of the VCRs I have
has a composite out, but the signal must come in through coax. Will the frame details from
the playback of a recorded VHS tape be the same from VCR to VCR? I'm not going to
automatically assume that it will. There has been far too many assumptions made without
verification. I have also seen dogmatic assertions, purportedly based on definitive proof,
proven false.

MAME screen transitions are not arcade transitions with dropped frames - MAME transitions
are rendered in a different way than arcade. As a refresher, here is Xelnia's original body of
evidence:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-
Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?
p=946633&viewfull=1#post946633

03-31-2018, 10:28 AM
FBX
1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

I have also seen dogmatic assertions, purportedly based on definitive proof, proven
false.

Oh, you mean how Billy's recordings have transitions that look identical to MAME? I'm still
waiting to see where this was proven false:

Attachment 54083

03-31-2018, 10:59 AM
WCopeland

Might as well add mine to the list.

https://i.imgur.com/Xnp7FZh.png

03-31-2018, 12:12 PM
expandedidea
1 Attachment(s)

Mid refresh frame transition from my webcam. You can still see the same obvious initial
girder drawing as in Wes's above image.

Attachment 54087
Exhibit A - 000945
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 945/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-31-2018, 12:56 PM
paramylodon

I have a question about the odd/even transition frames that we've been talking about. What
determines whether an "odd" or "even" is displayed during the transition? Is it random, is it a
pattern?

Say we have two gameplay VHS tapes, one is the original and another is a copy. Is it possible
for the original copy to display an even transition frame and for the copy to display an odd
transition frame at the same instance? See this post for an example:
https://www.facebook.com/david.race....87937091231704

I know that most of what the christian pacman has been posting on facebook is mostly
"missing the point", but this is one instance where I've never understood it very well, so if
someone could explain it to me that would be awesome.

03-31-2018, 01:01 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

That's the problem with a meaningless test like this, if it goes the way people want, its treated
as proof, if it doesn't go the way that's wanted its dismissed as meaningless. A test which is
only considered valid if it gives the answer you want is no real test.

RTM REPLY - half-disagree...

"Donkey Kong", although it has a share of random factors, has reached a point in the hands of
an expert where "coasting" to the kill screen is nearly a given. Additionally, there are different
degrees of point-pressing, each successive degree requiring a slightly higher skill-set and
knowledge of tactics and techniques.

I can't remember if it was Billy, Chris or the "Think Tank" in the 1st TG BoR which was
quoted as discussing "Ms Pacman" and how there were different skill-sets required as scores
became higher...bear in mind that this was before the days of a dozen plus players reaching
the split-screen on multiple occasions.

The same applies to DK. Clearly reaching the kill screen itself requires a certain skill-set. But
beyond that, once you get past the 900K mark, it seems like every 40K, 50K or 60K
depending on your perspective is a different skill-set. You can't be an 875K player on average
and suddenly hit 1M without learning a few tricks, and you can't sky-rocket to 1.1M without
learning a great deal more, and so forth.

That stated, a player whose PACE was clearly indicative of 1.1M...and this is not disputed
based on two performances which I was privy to in my referee days, should be able to achieve
1.06M without reaching that deeply into his bag of tricks to pull it off.

Exhibit A - 000946
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 946/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

routinely pull off 225K scores, and if you can't even pull off a 225K score, than the claim of
300K is just that...a claim.

03-31-2018, 01:08 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - half-disagree...

Now that's 1.06M...but not being able to pull off 1M at this point, that's like two degrees less
in skill-set than 1.1M and if you can't pull THAT off, that's like a player who claims 300K on
"Ms Pacman" not being able to pull off a 225K. You can't get to 300K without being able to
routinely pull off 225K scores, and if you can't even pull off a 225K score, than the claim of
300K is just that...a claim.

oh dont get me wrong, for me to believe or explain to friends casually, of course the fact he
only breaks million in private, but in public gets around 800k. and even worse, his play only
has mame artifacts mysteriously show up when he has million point games, but any of his
public games below 1 million points never gets the same mame image. of course this all
means something, but its not conclusive proof.

also, for those of us who dont believe billy, the test is invalid for a different reason. if billy get
1million+ tomorrow, and it was verfied legit, would you suddenly believe his old score, or
would you just believe he's better now than he once was? we'd again be stuck with a test that
we only take seriousy when it goes our way isnt really a test.

03-31-2018, 01:09 PM
The Evener

Sock Master at DK Forums weighed in to explain why Jace's rig produced B&W/semi-
monochromatic results. I'm including the post for dispute review documentation.

Exhibit A - 000947
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 947/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...34739#msg34739

"The reason the Two-Bit and other similar RGB to NTSC devices will not generate a proper
composite color output is because these devices use the H-Sync pulses that are output by DK
hardware to figure out where the colorburst reference should be inserted into the composite
video signal.

Both H and V syncs generated by DK hardware are not up to NTSC specification. An RGB
monitor wouldn't care if the H-Sync is the wrong width - it only cares that it's there at all, so
it'll happily display video. NTSC composite video on the other hand contains additional
reference signals at specific points in time to tell the receiver the frequency and phase of the
color carrier that's needed in order to decode colors.

The short explanation is if the H-Sync pulses are too wide or too narrow the RGB to NTSC
converter will not insert the colorburst signal into the correct time window. If the signal is not
positioned correctly a VCR/TV/etc will have difficulty locking to the color carrier, hence
have difficulty decoding the colors or even fall back to legacy B&W mode."

03-31-2018, 01:23 PM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

Billy has dug his own grave. He went all in trying to support his "legit" score. That was
before the infamous board swap fiasco. He stated that the board was certified (twice?) by a
Nintendo tech. Now he cannot play the least tech savvy guy that he stated he is multiple times
and claim that he didn't know the board was somehow modified (assuming they can somehow
reproduce the results in question now). He also stated in KoK that you have to be at top of
your game and able to perform at any moment ... live (if I recall correctly). Billy had multiple
times to prove his skills recently (including the Kong Off), but failed to do so. No, it doesn't
justify his cheating, but at least it would be something positive for team Billy.
Billy just got too cocky with his big mouth. What was that saying, oh yeah "Never go full
r3tard." His arrogant cheating calls for a maximum punishment.

03-31-2018, 01:24 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I have a question about the odd/even transition frames that we've been talking about. What
determines whether an "odd" or "even" is displayed during the transition? Is it random, is it a
pattern?

Say we have two gameplay VHS tapes, one is the original and another is a copy. Is it possible
for the original copy to display an even transition frame and for the copy to display an odd
Exhibit A - 000948
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 948/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

transition frame at the same instance? See this post for an example:
https://www.facebook.com/david.race....87937091231704

What is problematic with those references is that the first picture looks like a gameplay screen
(of any origin - MAME or arcade...doesn't matter), which has been recorded with an external
camera. See also the webcam snapshot above, from @expandedidea . That is another perfect
example of the shutter effect. But Billy's tapes are supposed to be direct feed, and direct feed
does not suffer from that shutter effect.

It's possible that the first picture is from someone recording playback of the VHS, with an
external camera, which simply muddies the waters and doesn't provide any useful
information.

To your question, though, setting those pictures aside - please reference any of my 30fps
video, 29.97fps video, and captured VCR playback from arcade hardware.

https://www.youtube.com/user/NoAffin...view=0&sort=dd

At 30fps and 29.97 frames per second (or 59.94 fields per second), including any of the VHS
playback capturesyou will see the signature transition frames at least half of the time. Because
the signals aren't perfectly synced, you might see one of the signature transition frames on
(for instance) 3 barrel stages in a row, but not on the 4th. It was there for the theoretical 4th
stage in this scenario, the recording device just didn't capture it.

If you want to further understand the shutter effect and get a sense for how it differs, stop
through frame-by-frame at the level startups, within any of the externally recorded footage
I've posted.

The point is, no matter how much that the quality of the capture, playback, etc. was degraded
by those of us running independent tests and really trying, the arcade transitional frames do
not go away completely. They are in fact regularly present, and even without knowing
whether the capture was from arcade or from "other", you can confidently determine when it
is arcade hardware. We don't see that in Billy's tapes, and they don't give us that confidence.

03-31-2018, 01:27 PM
YesAffinity

*step through frame-by-frame

03-31-2018, 01:45 PM
FBX

And also keep in mind the "odd" versus "even" frame encounters in Billy's tapes: Never at
ANY point do we find an actual original arcade hardware transition. Conversely, we find the
videos are RIFE with MAME transitions. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I did a census of
the 1.047 million DVD and found 30 out of the 58 total barrel transition stages displayed the
MAME 3-girder finger. In the remaining transitions, this frame was simply missed by the
recording as it landed on the next frame in the sequence. Because these frames showed up
randomly dispersed throughout the 2+ hour video (and not say just at the beginning or end),
you can conclude with 100% certainty the ENTIRE video was recorded from MAME.
Exhibit A - 000949
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 949/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-31-2018, 01:46 PM
paramylodon

Thanks for the explanation. Would a direct capture to VHS then not actually contain "even"
and "odd" frames? Your direct capture youtube videos don't seem to have them since you see
the five girder screen every time. Does the mere presence of even and odd transitions then
suggest that there was another device, like a PC, in the mix instead of direct arcade to VHS?

I'm sure this was addressed already, but I just want to make sure I understand everything...

03-31-2018, 01:48 PM
paramylodon

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

There's no doubt in my mind that those tapes are full of MAME transitions, I was just asking
about the technical aspect of odd vs even frames. I figure it wouldn't hurt to answer my
question since team Billy is bringing it up again.

03-31-2018, 01:59 PM
paramylodon

I'm posting these facebook links not because I support their arguments but because while we
wait for Jace's final decision, I think it's worthwhile for us here in this dispute to debunk the
straws that the christian pac man is grasping at.

03-31-2018, 02:16 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Oh I understand, but what they are doing is trying to do is confuse and distract the casual
outside observer. There are lots of reasons why a tape ends up showing an odd or an even
frame. You've got everything from tape 'wobble' (because VHS tapes are obviously
mechanical and analog in nature) to the nature of how NTSC video works, to the refresh rate
timing of the output itself, etc. NONE of it matters in the end, because it doesn't get around
the FACT that there are MAME transitions in Billy's recordings.

Put it to you this way: The MAME 'finger' signature is so distinct and different from real
Exhibit A - 000950
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 950/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

hardware, that if you find it just ONCE in a recording, you have to throw the score out. That's
how damning that frame is.

03-31-2018, 02:23 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

I'm cross-referencing Asterra's post here back on page 151 for further info on the issue of
odd/even frame starts:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post952350

03-31-2018, 02:44 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Because whatever capture device is being used is not perfectly synced and because DK
frames are not (theoretically) generating transitions, etc, in a number of frames divisible by 2
you will not necessarily get "even" frames at one transition and "odd" frames at the next
transition. For instance, the barrel stage generates religiously in 5 frames. 1 out of maybe 10,
it will generate in 6 frames, one of the frames will be duplicated. If you're capturing at 60fps,
and plenty of my videos show this, there are consistently 5 frames of startup, from the first
frame that is a partial or what has become known as a "swipe" or "sliding door effect" frame,
to the frame where all objects are on screen but Mario/Jumpman is not yet generated. It is
consistent, despite the 60hz video generation and 60fps not being perfectly in sync....there's
only so many opportunities for 60 things to happen in a single second, whether it's frame
generation or frame capture, and they will inevitably overlap even if not in perfect sync.

Now, if you take the capture rate to 30 frames per second, you will miss frames, but again, not
being perfectly synced, it becomes somewhat random at that point. Go to 24 fps, it gets more
random. I have one video uploaded, where I set my video processor to 24hz, effectively
bottlenecking the tranmission just ahead of the capture card, which was still grabbing at
60fps. Transition frames still present, although I haven't spent the time to document the
frequency. Many other variables worth considering, like length of captured footage, and what
the frequency could potentially be to capture or miss those signature frames, but they are
there.

Go down to 15fps, shorten the run to 20 minutes, minimize the opportunities...they will still
be there. Theoretically...haven't tested, not going to, I might not even have the technological
ability to create that 15fps scenario. And there's no indication that scenario, would have
existed, from the technology purported to have been used. But I have relative confidence that
you can still take a direct feed video from that scenario and confidently identify it as sourced
Exhibit A - 000951
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 951/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

from arcade hardware.

With the 29.97 frames per second, 59.94 fields per second VHS and other capture stuff, you
get half of the lines from one captured frame blended with half of the lines from the next
captured frame. Again, not perfectly synced with the 60hz arcade board generation, but you
still see the transitional frames.

03-31-2018, 03:25 PM
Blastaar

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

The MAME 'finger' signature is so distinct and different from real hardware, that if you find it
just ONCE in a recording, you have to throw the score out. That's how damning that frame is.

http://www.slither-gdi.net/gopherdamn.gif

03-31-2018, 04:23 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

if billy get 1million+ tomorrow, and it was verfied legit, would you suddenly believe his old
score, or would you just believe he's better now than he once was?

RTM REPLY - if he was to get 1.0M in the here and now, all that would prove is that in the
here and now he is 1.0M-capable...nothing more, nothing less.

Just as I did not (and still do not) believe that a certain LA-based gamer pulling off a 1M in
the here and now on his fave title does not "prove" he did a higher score back in the day when
his reflexes might have been better...it could just be that after 25+ years he has gotten good
enough to finally reach 1M.

But DK is not reflex-based...it is strategy-based.

Players "get good" at various titles throughout their gaming years, and on a few they become
exceptional. But while I can understand forgetting tactics once learned many years back on an
average title, you don't forget even the smallest tactics on those that you invested so much
time and effort in over the years. To this day for example, 36 years later, I remember all the
places in Stern "Super Cobra" where you can shoot through obstacles to hit ground targets.
And that is a VERY small element of the game.

Thus I cannot see accumulated knowledge and skills...on a game that is largely not reflex-
dependent as compared to "Centipede", for example...being forgotten over the years outside
of having major head trauma or developing alzheimer's or the like.

It's not a matter of seeing him get 1M in the here and now to prove the other scores...it is to
prove he has the skillset...period.

You can watch video after video of players setting records on games like "Robotron",
Exhibit A - 000952
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 952/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

"Millipede" and "Tempest" all you like, but you can't just get good by watching this.
However, on a game like "Donkey Kong", or pattern-based games like "Pacman" where
"running patterns" are being used, and maybe even "Q*Bert", sure, you can watch videos and
get better by emulating what you see.

That stated...he has submitted performances over the years which were indicative of 1M and
even 1.1M skill level gameplay...he has seen other experts play at the annual DK competitions
these past few years. There is NO WAY that he should be unable to crank out a great game in
maybe 2-3 tries...assuming he can at all.

Again, I'm not saying he needs to play to prove his performances...he needs to prove that he
can play at all. If he can't then what's the point debating how he recorded the game when he
can't demonstrate the skill-set to pull off such a performance in the first place ?

03-31-2018, 04:32 PM
Rev John

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

I would suggest that if a person has been found to have intentionally cheated, they cannot
redeem themselves by merely playing again and beating the score/s they have previously
claimed. If they cheated, they should be labelled as a cheat, and TG should have nothing to do
with them and remove their scores. If a cheater wants redemption they would need to start by
showing remorse, make a full and open admission and apology, and let the community decide
if they want to accept such in any degree.

If cheaters could 'try to get their score later, for real' this would encourage people to get
cheat/fake scores onto TG's system with the worst outcome being what - that they have all the
time in the world to actually play the game to try to get the score they claimed? Similarly I
think if someone has been found to have cheated, then all their scores should be removed -
otherwise people might be encouraged to cheat in a few fake scores knowing that the worst
punishment might be that those scores only might eventually be removed.

TG shouldn't be inviting scores from cheats. They shouldn't be saying it's OK if you've only
cheated a couple of times. They shouldn't say it's OK to have cheated because you're OK at
playing some games, or that you make an interesting caricature of yourself, or that your
cheating has brought publicity or whatever.

If Billy is determined to have cheated in previous submission/s, it would then be correct and
factual to say he's a cheat who has lied repeatedly to many many people. It should make no
difference at all if, for example, Billy got 1m+ on a real DK machine in front of everyone
tomorrow.

03-31-2018, 04:37 PM
Rev John

Just for the record I typed in my reply before seeing RTM's reply above. Having said that, I
also agree with what RTM has said. :O)
Exhibit A - 000953
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 953/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

03-31-2018, 05:52 PM
Patentman31
legal cause of action

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

The only way that I see Billy possibly succeeding at launching a lawsuit is if someone were to
parody his quote dating back to 1999 that "Work is for people who don't play video games".

Billy would not have any trademark rights in the phrase "work is for people who don't play
video games" or any parody or similar phrase. To get trademark rights you have to use the
word/phrase in commerce in which you connect the word/phrase with the goods or services
being sold. He cannot sue on trademark infringement grounds.

03-31-2018, 08:07 PM
RTM
2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patentman31

RTM REPLY - I am not 100% sure on this, but I do believe that on certain "Rickey's Hot
Sauce" commemorative bottles, and on certain donated gaming posters, Billy had this phrase
included.

Here are two pics that I pulled off via Google search...I'm sure that there are more.Attachment
54104Attachment 54105

03-31-2018, 08:37 PM
Rev John

My limited understanding, of Australian law at least, is that to fall foul of such a so-called
Trade-Mark you would basically need to produce and sell your own sauce labelled "Work is
for people who don't play video games" (or "Cheating is for people who don't play video
games" say) and try to pass it off as Billy Mitchell's actual product. I don't know why
someone would want to do this.

If you're not trying to sell a product, and you're not suggesting someoneExhibit
is a cheater
A - when
000954
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 954/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

they're not, then no worries.

I wouldn't rush out and get any tattoos though.

https://images.complex.com/complex/i...q54erzorck.jpg

03-31-2018, 09:17 PM
paramylodon

Since David Race has made it clear he's not going to and not willing to participate further in
the dispute thread, I thought it would be useful, or at least entertaining, to share links to his
facebook posts which contain his arguments. It's all public too, so it's not like I'm linking to
private conversations. Anyway, the following contain David's most recent arguments and
responses from Jace:

Claim - the dispute is invalid because TG doesn't have the master tape:
https://www.facebook.com/david.race....87863641239049

"Why are there "fingers" or "tails"..."

https://www.facebook.com/david.race....88157014543045

03-31-2018, 09:44 PM
The Evener

A few points I wanted to discuss as part of the dispute as they were raised elsewhere and wish
to document here:

Use of a modified DK PCB by Billy with some sort of flipped orientation, which could
explain why his recordings contain MAME transitions
-for both this 1.05 and 1.06 million scores, Billy claimed he used a DK PCB that was verified
by Nintendo as an authentic, unmodified PCB; he then had Nintendo certify that the PCB was
still unmodified following his high score play

http://www.mtv.com/news/1565744/donk...s-to-prove-it/
https://youtu.be/6JSzpjo8Oe0?t=31m3s

Producing a first generation copy from a source file will result in such serious degradation
that arcade transitions can appear as MAME, thereby rendering use of the copy for review
purposes fundamentally flawed
-this has been explained multiple times in this dispute review; creating copy after copy in a
chain-like fashion will eventually result in generation loss affecting the quality of the
representation - what it will not do, however, is copy the frames of the video in a different
order.
-if the copying process resulted in frames drawn out of order in a manner that they eventually
resembled MAME transitions, the copy would be unwatchable as such behaviour would affect
all the recorded frames and not just those related to screen transitions
-VHS generation loss is a non-factor with a first generation copy

03-31-2018, 10:00 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

Exhibit A - 000955
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 955/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

"Why are there "fingers" or "tails"..."

https://www.facebook.com/david.race....88157014543045

RTM REPLY - isn't the release of WolfMAME 194 way past when Bill's earlier
performances occurred ?

03-31-2018, 10:20 PM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

-if the copying process resulted in frames drawn out of order in a manner that they eventually
resembled MAME transitions, the copy would be unwatchable as such behaviour would affect
all the recorded frames and not just those related to screen transitions

Sorry, can't edit original post; I wanted to clarify that this characterization is for the sake of
argument. I would reiterate that the manner in which the MAME transitions are rendered is a
larger issue than simply the order of frames. MAME hallmarks such as the finger girder, for
example, would never materialize on a supposed arcade direct feed video through a process of
generation loss.

04-01-2018, 12:07 AM
Rev John

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - isn't the release of WolfMAME 194 way past when Bill's earlier
performances occurred ?

I understand that David is looking at MAME images that have been produced in time-frames
less than the normal frame-rate, and is somehow trying to extrapolate that into evidence.

David is also asking WHY the girder-fingers appear in MAME, the simple answer being that
MAME does not produce image frames exactly as an actual arcade machine does, a fact that
is acknowledged by the MAME testers at http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=6868 (not to
mention that it was also pointed out at the start of this dispute)

04-01-2018, 12:20 AM
lexmark

Thank you David Race for the free entertainment :) Seriously...OMG!

john

04-01-2018, 01:17 AM
Muerto

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000956
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 956/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by lexmark

Thank you David Race for the free entertainment :) Seriously...OMG!

john

That thread on FB made me think on another group of ppl, you simply can't talk sense to.....
Flat Earthers...

04-01-2018, 03:18 AM
Godfather

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexmark

Thank you David Race for the free entertainment :) Seriously...OMG!

john

i feel bad for people like David. David's a champ but once it's proven beyond a shadow of a
doubt the guy he's been protecting has lied to him and isn't even in his class how do you think
he's going to feel?

I just want us all to move forward from this, people like David are only doing what they feel
is right by sticking with their friends. At the end of the day i would never defend someone
who doesn't defend themselves.

04-01-2018, 07:07 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godfather

He's still going to believe Billy is innocent. Even if Billy were to come out and confess right
now, he'd believe Billy was telling the truth back then and only 'falling on the sword' to end
the controversy.

04-01-2018, 12:52 PM
Snowflake

ok, so david makes clear he doesnt want to contribute here

he dismissed jace with "you are free to go" making very clear he doesnt want to hear counter
evidence on his page as well
he has refused to provide the additional evidence @Nerd jock has repeatedly asked for to
verify his claims
Exhibit A - 000957
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 957/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

he has asked questions already answered, argued with points noone made and misrepresented
the side here

I will say this in defense of david, he is doing more research than the rest of team billy and he
does have some facts on his side. I do applaud that effort. At this point thouh he's made very
clear he knows hes wrong because the technical details he does show awareness of lets me
know that he already knows the answers to the questions he's asking as well as the issue with
the other things he's implying. His refusal to come here tells me further tells me he doesnt
want a permanent more public recording of what he said nor does he want people pointing out
all the flaws. Him asking jace to stop responding tells me he doesnt want to hear hes wrong
on his own page either.

I think its time we respect that. Look, the goal of this isnt to convince everyone in the world
what billy did. The goal is to fix the scoreboard. If some peole want to live in fantasy land, we
really should let them. David doesnt want his words here, further his words seem to serve no
benefit unless you're goal is to embarass him. I dont see any point in trying to embarass
people just for the sake of embarassment. The guy has definitley shown the ability to reason
when he wants to, I'd rather not antagonize him, maybe in the future when its not an issue he's
so emotionally vested in he can help us out if he stay friendly. I mean, we have to argue with
anything he puts in this thread if wrong, but we dont need to go to his facebook and just look
to make fun of it.

04-01-2018, 12:55 PM
Snowflake

ok, to clarify above though, when i say dont embarass people jsut for the sake of
embarassment, but at the same time seeing the point drag out. Letting billy's tech and billy
himself embarass himself with further lies and falsified info does serve a purpose, it helps
establish a pattern of deception billy is involved with. As far as I can tell though, David isnt
acting in any official capacity under billy which is why i dont see the point in tearing him
apart for anything said off site

04-01-2018, 02:03 PM
FBX

If David doesn't want to hear counters to his arguments and even went so far as to tell Jace to
stop replying, then David shouldn't bother making his drive-by posts here either. If he wants
to be left alone, then he needs to stay out of it. But you can't have it both ways. If you want to
argue in a dispute, it's a 2-way street. You can't just make assertions and then expect not to
have them scrutinized.

04-01-2018, 02:29 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

oh for sure, anything his says here is fairgame, i was referring to the links to his facebook. if
he wants facebook to be his safespace then thats cool.
Exhibit A - 000958
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 958/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

04-01-2018, 02:36 PM
BenMullen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I dont see any point in trying to embarass people just for the sake of embarassment.

Agreed. if a person does not want their stuff here, we should not copy it here. Also, linking to
fb does not really help because it's not permanent enough for this thread anyway as they could
always remove it or block people. I for instance, do seem to be blocked.

We should let bygones be bygones on this and just stick to the evidence. If BM were innocent,
and evidence did exist to show that, they have every right to display that evidence here. If
they don't want to and just let him be banned... also fine even if he were innocent. We can
only go off the evidence we have I guess.

At this point the only thing I think that remains for this thread to discuss is the matter of
punishment. There is no vote for that and it appears to be ultimately up to TG officials so
there is not even actually much to discuss there. If I were to discuss it I think it fair to remove
all scores and ban him permanently. Maybe on the harsher side but it fits for peddling
influence to enter fake scores in the database (especially VERY high profile ones).

04-01-2018, 03:16 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenMullen

At this point the only thing I think that remains for this thread to discuss is the matter of
punishment

RTM REPLY - Ben, check out post 2243...

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...599#post959599

04-01-2018, 03:28 PM
FBX

Jace has alluded to what should be considered in the case of deciding punishment, and that's
all the surrounding circumstances: The fact that you have multiple submissions that were
cheating. The fact that he and his tech passed off a bogus board swap video to memorialize a
world record feat that never happened. The fact that Billy was known during this time to be
especially scrutinizing of his direct competition (Steve Wiebe). The fact that Billy intimidated
referees that even dared question these scores in the first place (back when he had a conflict
of interest being part financier of TG). The fact that Billy's current tech/defender was
deceptive and intentionally obtuse in his video, using devices that Billy originally never
claimed to have used.

That's just to name a few, and I'm sure RTM can add plenty more to that list. Point being, this
guy in my opinion deserves the same punishment as Todd got. Full stripping of records and
titles with TG, and permanent banning.
Exhibit A - 000959
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 959/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

04-01-2018, 04:13 PM
BenMullen

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - Ben, check out post 2243...

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...599#post959599

Indeed. I read this. I have been careful to keep up on it all in fact to be as fair as possible in
case counter evidence of substance were offered. It is a good breakdown of the possibilities.

04-01-2018, 05:11 PM
Patentman31
Trademark Rights

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - I am not 100% sure on this, but I do believe that on certain "Rickey's Hot
Sauce" commemorative bottles, and on certain donated gaming posters, Billy had this phrase
included.

Here are two pics that I pulled off via Google search...I'm sure that there are more.Attachment
54104Attachment 54105

Under US trademark law if you use a phrase like that in a trademark sense, then you have
rights in the goods/services you are selling. For sake of argument if he did use that phrase as a
trademark, then he would have rights to "Work is for people who don't play video games!" for
the sale of hot sauce. No one else would be able to sell hot sauce and use that phrase for the
sale of hot sauce. He would not own that phrase for every produce/service in the world. Just
those in connection with the trademark. Also, trademark rights would be local, that is he only
has rights in the geographic market where he is selling the goods (ie, he sells in Atlanta, but
not NYC then he does not have any rights in NYC). He could obtain a Federal registration to
expand his rights, but he would have to file for that. With respect to the use of the phrase on a
poster, I don't think this would give him any rights at all unless he was saying the brand of
posters he was selling was "Work is for people who don't play video games!" posters. Writing
on posters and T-shirts does not give you trademark rights in those products. You have to
name the product (name the t-shirts or posters) that particular name.

At most you would want to avoid using that phrase in connection with the sale of hot sauce.
I'd have to see how it was used in connection with the sale of posters to see if it would be
problematic.

04-01-2018, 05:20 PM
sdwyer138

I clearly missed something pages ago about this quote. So, sorry for asking. But what is the
significance of that quote to this dispute?

04-01-2018, 05:40 PM
Patentman31
Exhibit A - 000960
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 960/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdwyer138

I clearly missed something pages ago about this quote. So, sorry for asking. But what is the
significance of that quote to this dispute?

Some discussion about legal issues that could arise if the dispute is against Billy and he sues.
If he has sued people in the past, then its safe to assume he will sue people in the future. So
long as everything that is written is true, as so long as the work that is done is in good faith,
then that is what you need to do from a legal stand point. Anyone in America can sue anyone
they want for anything at any time. However, it's a different matter to win a law suit than
simply filing one.

04-01-2018, 07:10 PM
paramylodon

In hindsight, linking directly to David's facebook posts only sent invitations for more people
to go in and comment on his posts. I won't link to his facebook anymore. However if he posts
anymore claims or arguments, I asked him for permission to copy them here in this dispute.

David's the only person from team Billy who's actually come up with counterpoints to the
MAME arguments presented here in the dispute. I don't really blame him for not wanting to
post here because he's completely outnumbered here. He's literally the only team Billy person
who's posted here for the last thousand posts. Some of the responses to him were fine and
respectful, but he also gets replies that aren't the most civil. Obviously he feels more
comfortable posting all his arguments to his own facebook page, but there's no permanence to
those posts, so I don't think it's a bad idea to copy his arguments here so that they're at least on
the official dispute. It gives us something to discuss rather than devolving into an echo
chamber.

Refuting David's arguments here in the dispute thread only serve to solidify the claims of this
dispute.

04-01-2018, 08:44 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by paramylodon

David's the only person from team Billy who's actually come up with counterpoints to the
MAME arguments presented here in the dispute.

I wouldn't call them 'counterpoints' as they were more akin to wild speculation based on a
lack of understanding of how MAME works versus the arcade hardware. Jace tried to explain
it very clearly to him. if that's not enough, then that's not enough.

04-02-2018, 05:56 AM
The Evener
9 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Exhibit A - 000961
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 961/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In addition to independently confirming the direct feed B&W capture identified by TG and
Chris, Carlos - using the original equipment and direct feed set-up allegedly used by Billy at
Boomer's - also captured arcade transitions only, matching TG results. For reference I've
included a few screen captures below from Carlos' video that contains arcade, compared to
Billy's 1,062,800 score as recorded at the Big Bang, and the compared to MAME.

From left to right - Carlos, Billy @ Big Bang, and MAME

Pie/Cement Factory (conveyor)

Attachment 54238Attachment 54239Attachment 54240

Elevators
Attachment 54241Attachment 54242Attachment 54243

Girder (with images previously captured by FBX)

Attachment 54244Attachment 54245Attachment 54246

04-02-2018, 06:47 AM
Kinnijup
o_o

I feel really badly for the guys who competed with Billy back then in particular. Thanks for
doing all this research, Jace and everyone else.

04-02-2018, 11:47 AM
Hotrod6045

I think Team Billy doesn't know how to do direct recording properly in order to ATTEMPT to
save their most recent defense.

Kind of wondering if the dispute could be resolved end of business this Friday should this
most recent update can be internally resolved before EOD Friday.

04-02-2018, 05:53 PM
RTM

With DK's initial release date of July 9th, 1981 it would be nice if this could be resolved
before July 9th of this year.

04-02-2018, 06:25 PM
Jace Hall

I received this message earlier today and wanted to include it in the public dispute
discussion:--------

Today, 04:37 PM
Hello Jace. It's been a little while since I checked out the forums, cause life tends to get in the
way in spurts, lol, but I had a chance to catch up a little bit, and noticed you posted the board
Exhibit A - 000962
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 962/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

run, DK game I did for Carlos in one of the hundreds of new pages of response from
seemingly the same 5 people over and over again and then you chime in every once in a
while. I will display a couple of your quotes from that message here and then Carlos wrote me
earlier today and wanted me to relay it to you in the continuation of our private message
thread, however you can also make this public as well, seeing that you made the board run
public, however it is addressed to you. First your quotes, and then Carlos's response. Thank
you....

Quote:

We noticed that it looks nothing like the Billy recordings, and instead is SEMI-
MONOCHROMATIC in color and presentation. This is in line with our internal findings so
far.

We closely observed the presentation that Carlos Pinerio posted and we noticed some items:

Regardless, in Carlos' video, we noticed that when he demonstrates the TWO-BIT video
signal output, he plugs the output directly into a TV/Monitor. When he does that we see a
very clear signal. This is something that we are able to easily replicate when we do the same
thing with our TWO-BIT converter and our NTSC monitor. HOWEVER, what we do not see
is Carlos plug that TWO-BIT video out into an actual VHS recorder, and we do not see the
signal output from the VHS recorder. While this seems insignificant, we have discovered that
it is incredibly significant piece of information missing - Here is why:

Our testing of the TWO-BIT converter has indicated that it does not output a standard NTSC
signal. In fact, the signal is so non-standard, that many devices will not recognize it fully and
only output a BLACK AND WHITE or SEMI-MONOCHROMATIC display when they
receive it. Only extremely forgiving devices seem to have any chance of interpreting the full
signal. We have confirmed this behavior with @YesAffinity (Chris Gleed) who has been
performing 3rd party confirmation work with the other TWO-BIT converter we purchased
and sent to him.
Exhibit A - 000963
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 963/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

We have yet to find any VHS recorder that will recognize the signal properly and record it in
full and proper color. Every VHS recorder records it in black and white.

All testing is currently showing that it may not be possible to create a recording that looks like
Billy Mitchell's using an original arcade machine, a TWO-BIT converter and a VHS recorder
only.

Mr.Hall,
I am very pleased to see that you are working hard in also replicating the findings. Though I
have chosen to remain off the comments and forums, I have remained highly active in the
work, keeping in touch with others that too are running tests. Steve Kleisath has been VERY
helpful to keep me posted on the items that he feels are of high importance to which require
answering. He brought your recent post to my attention. I hope to answer some of the missing
parts from your post to which can help all of us.

I stay away from the comments and the noise because it’s become too big, too vile, and sadly
tooooooo long with so called experts (because everyone is now a mame and classic game
board expert) who aren’t blessed to have access to the equipment we have to actually run
these tests and figure out the exact answers. My wife became concerned with the threats,
repeated fat jokes, calls to end our life, videos being commented with words like ******,
including multi thumbs down and bad ratings on my wife’s business page that we have been
working to clean up with google since she only provides food service in South Florida but the
hate ratings are now coming from all over the country.

Furthermore being out hundreds of $$$$ because I was told by many to attend the Banning
event to answer questions, but to my surprise almost no one asked anything when I finally
spoke BUT everyone in your face treated me like a best friend. So I learned quickly to just
stick to the work and share with others little by little what is being looked for.
For contexts, The original video I released was about the 5th version which I called the visual
version because I quickly explain and show other videos of the findings.

After a lot of feedback, it was the easiest that others understood. Previous tries were just
tooooo damn technical, but in making the video I put public quickly,I did miss some details
that later have come up.
Also I was answering the burning question of that time which was that only Arcade has a
Swipe graphic and Mame does a Clean Pop in Graphic. I was also told that converters are
NEVER ahead of arcade. They are either exact or behind because of lag due to frame buffers,
and no such thing as the shutter effect, so that was the focus to show that all those things
matter.

1) The Computer and Gigaware unit was there because I was told the later videos were made
using a usb capture device instead of a VCR. Though most of my work is focused on the
1.047 which wasn’t done via the capture device out of the arcade, some of the videos of other
Exhibit A - 000964
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 964/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

plays would be captured from VCR to computer via this device and computer, So I included
it.

2) There is a webcam on the arcade connected to the computer, but that is actually for other
reasons like recording plays but isn’t for the investigation. I didn’t speak of it because it
wasn’t part of the things used for 1.047, 1.050, 1.062 .. That stick is nailed to the cabinet.

3) It has been brought to my attention that I have expressed how the Billy tapes don’t look
sharp but I showed the TV connected to the converter was SHARP as hell. I should have been
more clear but at the time I didn’t think about it because I was demonstrating the outputs on
screens looking different at the time, but you are correct. Connecting to a TV directly does
produce a VERY fine image because the TV can accept signal with wide bands off errors,
where a capture device (including a VCR) requires the signal to be cleaner so it can sync
better. Bad syncing signal would cause the color burst pulses to be skipped and produce a
B/W image instead. Sadly the 1.047 video is almost 14 years old and the actual VCR used
(Model / brand) has been lost. I have been testing a few brands that I can get my hands on to
which I found different brands record the two-bit signal differently. I found the AWIA brand
records color but fades dark within a few minutes. A Sony records in B/W plus shaky BUT
when you copy that tape, you bring the color back 40% off the time BUT the shakiness is
very bad. Panasonic has worked better but color does go in transitions. Finding the VCR from
the day that can accept a signal with such wideband of errors is the magic BUT the moment I
get it right and working, I will write everything down so you and others CAN mimic and test.

4) Most all the Recordings you have seen have come from the Two-Bit converter BUT is
captured thru the Capture device, from the running of the boards to other tests I have put links
out about. In this link, I used the Webcam and the Two-Bit composite output captured via the
gigaware usb capture to compare looks and transitions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=noWqQW1JJ08
This was one of the tests I was performing. It does have color but it’s really ugly.

Now when it comes to Mame recording, I have been looking in to it also. Since in 2005
(making of 1.047) computers didn’t have an easy composite output, the research I found for
the time didn’t have good external converters BUT there was a Video card that had a very
highly rated 15khz output composite out but it was VERY expensive (Around $500) plus it
required your motherboard to have space for a ¾ long AGP port slot, meaning that it would
be a large beige computer case and a laptop could not be used. So what was possible if you
had a high end laptop (In that time) was a DVD burner. You would capture the game play.
Convert to a playable DVD. Then you would play the DVD on a player that was connected to
a standard VCR that you simply hit record. So I did these tests but the images are so clean and
clear that even digitally capturing the VHS playback, the video is VERY GOOD. Here are
some links for your viewing. Even the board redraws are clean and pop in.
This is the direct record of the mame play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=TzrvANSOATE
This is the direct copy of the DVD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz1ew4-ZUxQ
This is the Digital capture of the VHS play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=ZtEFuqT5XLQ

These are dealing with videos that were recording via a method that was not the norm in the
day. A Direct analog converter to a capture device (VCR or USB capture board) that were
copied over and over, then rerecorded using a camera aimed to a TV just to turn it straight,
that was then copied over and over to then be captured via WHO KNOWS what device to put
back in computer for uploading to YouTube. Access to the original tapes would be SO helpful
but we are using what we have in hand.
These Mame recordings are toooo sharp and the stage redraws are clean pops.
Exhibit A - 000965
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 965/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Though I have almost everything that is recalled to be used, the exact VCR is a work in
progress but I’m active on it and CLOSE!!

----------------

MY RESPONSE WAS AS FOLLOWS:

Quote:

Thanks for sending.

Since you have given me permission, I am going to go ahead and repost the message you sent
into the public dispute thread so that it can be officially considered in the evidence chain.

I appreciate Carlos' efforts and look forward to seeing the results of his continuing attempts to
reproduce an original DK arcade VHS recording that is similar to Billy's using the described
process and equipment that Billy provided at the time of his adjudication.

Arcade->TWO BIT converter -> VHS recorder.

We continue to attempt it as well.

04-02-2018, 06:38 PM
Snowflake

Some things in that response seemed unclear and a little open to interpretation. Did we just
recieve yet another conflicting story on how billy recorded his run?

04-02-2018, 07:00 PM
FBX

So the TLDR is:

1. Threats to my family, everyone is mean on the Internet, hurting my wife's business, same 5
'experts' chiming in on the dispute thread (indicating they completely dismiss all the capture
work contributed by everyone involved here), and so on. Similar to Todd Rogers when he
decided he wasn't going to ever prove a 5.51 because 'people were mean and threatened his
family'. I'll let this speak for itself.

2. Admits the computer and gigaware devices were in his videos because he was TOLD they
were used for other recordings (though not the original 1.047 record).

3. Effectively admits he CANNOT get the setup with the converter to produce a video tape
that looks even remotely like Billy's tape. Believes that there's a magical VCR from 14 +
years ago that will record the footage in proper sync + color, AND will look like Billy's tape
that happens to look like MAME transitions. So in other words, an INDEFINITE time
extension on the search for the 'magical' VCR that makes arcade look like MAME.

4. Makes the insinuation that because it was somewhat 'expensive' to output a computer
running MAME to video back in 2005, we should treat this a some sort of corroborating
evidence that Billy's 1.047 tape is legit.

Exhibit A - 000966
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 966/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Remember though: He's CLOSE to finding that magical VCR that turns arcade into MAME!

04-02-2018, 07:01 PM
datagod

How many possible configurations (hardware, software, VCR, cables, converters, etc.) exist
out there?

How many hundreds of hours have people spent trying to find that one exact possible
combination that will re-create Billy's submission?

Lets say there are 10,000,00 possible combinations. How come every single combination
attempted so far does not disprove MAME? Not one single combination tested so far proves
that what is on the tapes is from an Arcade machine.

What are the chances? How far are people willing to take this?

"After 17 years of testing every single possible combination, we finally found the correct
combination to explain all the MAME-ish artifacts. It took us 8,971,555 tries but we finally
are able to explain."

I just don't buy it. Something doesn't smell right. It should not be so staggeringly difficult to
recreate the game play. That is, assuming it was recorded as we have been told.

Team Billy is failing themselves, throwing their life hours down the drain.

I still love Billy, he is my friend. But I am not dumb or blind.

04-02-2018, 07:12 PM
datagod

Has it been 10 business days yet? I feel like I am waiting for a refund from the proctologist or
something.

04-02-2018, 07:16 PM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

Has it been 10 business days yet? I feel like I am waiting for a refund from the proctologist or
something.

Lets be honest...Going to that doctor is a pain in the butt. :P

04-02-2018, 07:30 PM
paramylodon

He also didn't specify which version of MAME he was using in those MAME recordings, so
it's unusable as evidence.

04-02-2018, 07:36 PM
FBX

Exhibit A - 000967
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 967/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

I just don't buy it. Something doesn't smell right. It should not be so staggeringly difficult to
recreate the game play. That is, assuming it was recorded as we have been told.

This is the crux of it. In a way I feel sorry for Carlos in that he's been chasing a wild goose
that Billy set him on. In the end, he's never going to find that magical VCR that turns arcade
into MAME, and eventually (assuming he isn't financed by Billy) is going to get really
frustrated when he realizes how much of a waste of time and money Billy's lies cost him.

04-02-2018, 07:37 PM
Snowflake

my question to you @Jace Hall is you mentioned you are continuing to see if you can
produce mame images from an arcade. I understand thats always been the key point, but I
thought you had already explored every angel you could. Are you able to share with us what
you are doing to investigate this further?

04-02-2018, 07:47 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

So the TLDR is:

Plus, he isn't even correct about that. I bought an $80 ATI All-In-Wonder video card in 2002
which had "TV-out" (S-video and composite) functionality, and laptops from the '00s
commonly had a built-in "TV-out" jack (S-video usually, which can easily be converted to
RCA/composite), and not just expensive laptops either.

He's also repeating his "MAME looks too sharp" thing which I've already addressed many
posts ago, but again, picture quality is determined by the type of video signal that's being
output, not by the source. Both MAME and arcade hardware have pure digital data as the
source, which is as theoretically "sharp" as you can get, and when you output them via the
same type of video signal (such as composite in order to record with a VCR), they are
identical in terms of picture quality.

04-02-2018, 07:58 PM
timmell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

I received this message earlier today and wanted to include it in the public dispute
discussion:--------

Now when it comes to Mame recording, I have been looking in to it also. Since in 2005
Exhibit A - 000968
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 968/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

(making of 1.047) computers didn’t have an easy composite output, the research I found for
the time didn’t have good external converters BUT there was a Video card that had a very
highly rated 15khz output composite out but it was VERY expensive (Around $500) plus it
required your motherboard to have space for a ¾ long AGP port slot, meaning that it would
be a large beige computer case and a laptop could not be used.

Looking into what, didn't look that long? IMO

Computers HAD a easy composite out. I'm sorry here is a example of how I made a MAME
tape on VHS for Settle it on the Screen gag segment. "Is it MAME?" To make fun of the
situation and be light hearted for entertainment purposes. We were not doing anything serious.

But to go frame by frame on a VCR, Live during our show I had to create a MAME VHS
tape.

Windows 98 computer with MAME 0.76 or 0.71, rotated screen on windows desktop. Output
via ATI Radeon 8500 "AGP" with S-Video, svideo to composite adapter, composite to video
in on VCR, boom.. MAME play on a VCR. Also RECORD in SLP so it looks like pure crap.

ATI Radeon 8500 came out in 2001 was $299

The ATI Radeon will fit into a AGP slot with a Micro ATX Motherboard. No Large beige
computer case at my house.
Putting MAME game play on a VHS/DVD/ capture to another device, etc was very easy to do
in 2003. I can also do video editing using Vegas Pro 4.0 on my windows 98 machine and
output from the timeline to that same S-video port. Just saying.

If this was court, I feel he would be thrown out as a expert witness.

Also I never heard of 3/4 AGP card. There are AGP Pro cards that are large and long. If
someone know of 3/4 naming of AGP cards please link me.

04-02-2018, 09:42 PM
YesAffinity

I posted captured gameplay very early on in this effort, from the arcadevga agp card I still
have running in my mame cab today, which I bought new around 2003. Composite out
directly to a capture device with composite in. No encoders or other nonsense needed for that
configuration. Videos are still up on my YouTube channel. The arcadevga cost around $120 if
I'm remembering correctly. It certainly wasn't more than $200.

04-03-2018, 12:12 AM
omega175

Quote:

All testing is currently showing that it may not be possible to create a recording that looks like
Billy Mitchell's using an original arcade machine, a TWO-BIT converter and a VHS recorder
only.

Exhibit A - 000969
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 969/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

So was there a computer involved in the original "direct" capture or wasn't. Seems we are
going in circles here. This minimalistic cooperation from Billy just bothers me. Does he have
something to hide? Does he plead the 5th? Is there a 5th amendment in gaming community or
something? Billy should be fully cooperating with TG to bring the case quickly to a close.
This shouldn't be "innocent until proven guilty" with the community spending thousands of
hours testing different unclear possibilities while Billy is jetsetting all over the country
propping his image.

04-03-2018, 12:44 AM
omega175

So at this point certain people want us to go on a wild goose chase for that magical unicorn
VCR that will record in proper color and change arcade signal to look exactly like MAME?
Wow, I didn't know such a thing existed. Sign me up for one of these.

Not sure, if Jace checked, but did he try direct recording using that expensive VCR to see, if
he can get proper colors? If that VCR records in black and white, we could safely assume that
that all other cheaper VCRs do the same. It's just to simplify things and cutting search time
down.

Looks like Billy is trying to leave as many escape doors open as possible, hence these unclear
details and changes. Clear misdirection over and over again. What, you don't remember what
VCR you used? Didn't you have some specific (lucky?) VCR to do all your video recording
and copying? Certainly it would be some more expensive model, not some cheapo generic
type. Who wants to tape their wonderful records on a potato? I would certainly keep a very
good tape copy, if not original as well. People are creatures of habits, so they would bring
hardware they knew they can rely on and that was tested working ok in a specific setup.
I still remember the VCR I bought in 1996. It was a silver Hi-Fi JVC with a flying erase head
and a jog dial that I paid $320 for on sale (full retail price was more than $400). If I take 5
minutes, I can dig out the EXACT model number of that VCR. Are you telling me Billy has
an amnesia? Certainly he should come up with at least a brand name. Recording your tapes
over the years takes many hours interfacing with that VCR. He said it himself he had many
more tapes with higher scores. Where are they? I don't believe that every time he played for a
record at home, someone had to be there to do all the setup work for him. If he wasn't tech
savvy (as he stated multiple times) he would rely on the same VCR that is probably always
hooked up to his machine.

04-03-2018, 01:46 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by omega175

Looks like Billy is trying to leave as many escape doors open as possible, hence these unclear
details and changes. Clear misdirection over and over again. What, you don't remember what
VCR you used? Didn't you have some specific (lucky?) VCR to do all your video recording
and copying? Certainly it would be some more expensive model, not some cheapo generic
type. Who wants to tape their wonderful records on a potato? I would certainly keep a very
good tape copy, if not original as well. People are creatures of habits, so they would bring
hardware they knew they can rely on and that was tested working ok in a specific setup.
I still remember the VCR I bought in 1996. It was a silver Hi-Fi JVC with a flying erase head
and a jog dial that I paid $320 for on sale (full retail price was more than $400). If I take 5
minutes, I can dig out the EXACT model number of that VCR. Are you telling me Billy has
an amnesia? Certainly he should come up with at least a brand name. Recording your tapes
Exhibit A - 000970
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 970/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

over the years takes many hours interfacing with that VCR. He said it himself he had many
more tapes with higher scores. Where are they? I don't believe that every time he played for a
record at home, someone had to be there to do all the setup work for him. If he wasn't tech
savvy (as he stated multiple times) he would rely on the same VCR that is probably always
hooked up to his machine.

It's because he used MAME.

(Seriously, this is getting to be a punchline now :-P )

04-03-2018, 02:23 AM
omega175

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I had to make this clear and didn't want this info to disappear
in a wall of text.

Quote:

I already talked about it something more than 10 days ago. Relating to this quote ... this is
very misleading and simply not true. Why is that person doing it??? He said he did the
"research" about composite input on laptops and still came up with a wrong conclusion???
Sorry, this doesn't fly with me. What does it say about his tech and research skills?
There is no need to be a tech guy to prove that guy wrong, but ... I'm in tech most of my life.
I'm a mechanical engineer, but work in IT field. I also repair laptops and that goes to models
dating as far back as 1997 (such as Dell CP) or so. I could dabble in fixing 1980's computers
(such as Atari 800XL), but too little time for that (would enjoy doing that), unfortunately. I do
have quite a collection of old computers and consoles dating back to 1977. I'll try to give my
2 cents about this. I can assure you that getting composite video and audio out (in this case
just video needed) of a laptop was very easy even back in 2000. That laptop was a Dell CPx
h500GT (500MHz Pentium III with a max of 512MB PC100 RAM):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5TchtD4MNQ
In the video the guy says about a date 2002 that he reads during laptop boot, but that's the date
that changes when you upgrade the bios (in this case A21 (ie. A21 BIOS is from 2002)).

Before that laptops, such as Dell CPi, had a VGA out (these were Pentium I and Pentium II):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLeFErmLndU

So we have this Dell laptop line, starting from 2000 that all had S-Video plug
Latitude CPx, C600, C800, C610, C810, C640, C840, D600, D800, D610, D810 (with the
latest one release late 2004:
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global...it_d810_en.pdf )

Dell D410 12.1" Ultrabook (released with a new look the same time as D610 and D810) had a
VGA out. You could get a special adapter cable VGA to S-Video/Composite. Same goes for
Dell CP.
There is also a whole Inspiron line from that time frame with at least most of them having S-
Exhibit A - 000971
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 971/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Video plug.

If a laptop didn't have video out, it's docking station would. Dell CPx had a docking station as
well (other models could use the same one) with another (better) video card inside.

Converting S-Video to composite was just a simple matter of a small cable adapter (I still
have 5-6 of them here somewhere, also Dell).

Anyway, that's just a few examples from one "little" company called Dell. These were good
old days when Dell laptops were made in the USA. Now take under consideration other
brands such as IBM/Lenovo, HP, Sony, Gateway, etc. Wouldn't that be plenty of ways to have
an easy access to a composite video on a laptop back in 2004-2005?
Interesting note, from about Dell C800, all these Dell laptops had a Firewire connection. You
could use a video capture through a Firewire as well.
I hope this fully debunks that person's misleading statements once and for all. I would
appreciate it, if his future arguments were based on a more firm ground. These delay tactics
cannot go on forever.

TL; DR: Getting composite video on a laptop was very easy as far back as 2000. 1997, if
using VGA to composite adapter.

04-03-2018, 02:41 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Without any new information, there is very little left for us to explore. So far, we are unable to
reproduce what is seen on Billy’s tapes using the equipment specified by Billy (and Carlos.)

Beyond the color issue, There’s the whole issue of screen orientation because we have
definitively determined that Billy could not have been playing on a modified PCB where the
straps have been moved to output a 180° rotation.

So we are having great difficulty in figuring out how to record straight from the TWO BIT
converter to VHS and have the orientation that Billy had.

We continue to keep trying using extreme ideas just to see if anything at all as possible.

Yesterday I received an email from Joel West on Billy’s behalf, and here is an excerpt from
what it said:
Quote:

I have several statements/affiadavits I am in the process of getting which will shed some light
on tapes “Billy claimed” he was the player on. I also have several other things I believe will
help sway the “jury” plus Carlos is very close on duplicating some of the technical aspects
that you seem to want explained.

Therefore, in good faith, I ask at least to have thru this coming weekend before a decision is
Exhibit A - 000972
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 972/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

made. I feel confident we can show Billy did not play MAME by technical means and supply
a reasonable and traceable backstory.

He also said this:

Quote:

In the long run, a decision made with both sides being satisfied they have exhausted all
evidence will ultimately benefit both parties.

So we are going to continue to test while we allow Billy’s team the opportunity through the
weekend to provide whatever additional insights they feel they need to.

We can then evaluate from there.

04-03-2018, 03:01 AM
Neo Tiger

looks like what carlos is saying is not really relevant to the points of contention at all, weather
a pc or laptop could output to a vcr(it can mine did in 97) is of no relevance and looks like
alot of pointless information to delay or just claim some sort of miracle happened with
unknown hardware when billy made his scores, will most probably be this.

04-03-2018, 03:03 AM
J.C. Harrist
1 Attachment(s)

Here's a still from Carlos' new video:

Attachment 54306

04-03-2018, 03:05 AM
brotherBox

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

How many possible configurations (hardware, software, VCR, cables, converters, etc.) exist
out there? How many hundreds of hours have people spent trying to find that one exact
possible combination that will re-create Billy's submission? Lets say there are 10,000,00
possible combinations. How come every single combination attempted so far does not
disprove MAME? Not one single combination tested so far proves that what is on the tapes is
from an Arcade machine. What are the chances? How far are people willing to take this?
"After 17 years of testing every single possible combination, we finally found the correct
combination to explain all the MAME-ish artifacts. It took us 8,971,555 tries but we finally
are able to explain."

I don't think this is necessarily a question of advanced combinatorics; it is a question of what

step after the Two-Bit converter can correct the botched NTSC output, as outlined in
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post961324. In my opinion this can be reduced
to a serialised processes if none of them introduce errors of themselves, the output of element
B in the chain should not differ on what precisely element D is. This should dramatically
reduce the number of possibilities to check. At this point however, I see no point in
continuing to chase ghosts (how ironic right?), none of this addresses the strongest point of
Exhibit A - 000973
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 973/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

contention which is the irregular stage transitions etc. Let's not forget that we are sent down
just another rabbit hole of options just to have the story changed on us again.

04-03-2018, 03:09 AM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

He also said this:

So we are going to continue to test while we allow Billy’s team the opportunity through the
weekend to provide whatever additional insights they feel they need to.

This fellow seems to have understood that the deadline was fast approaching. He has added
another week to the wait, and that assumes nothing less than that the newest delay tactic ends
up being dismissable in less than a day -- strikingly improbable, given how much extra time
has been spent simply sorting out the presence of the Giga device.

What bothers me is that the above-quoted statement carries two threats: 1) That they are
seeking to take mutual (effectively primary) control over the schedule of this TG dispute. 2)
That there is probably even moreâ€‹ "evidence" forthcoming, beyond the wholly nebulous
tidbits promised.

I think I can make this very simple: If none of the provided data instantly shows that arcade
Donkey Kong renders just like the "finger" versions of MAME -- for example, if the data
chiefly belabors completely unrelated technical quibbles, such as, oh, the way some video
ends up being captured as black & white -- then into the dumpster it goes, and we can move
on to returning a verdict.

04-03-2018, 03:58 AM
FBX

Quote:

Therefore, in good faith, I ask at least to have thru this coming weekend before a decision is
made. I feel confident we can show Billy did not play MAME by technical means and supply
a reasonable and traceable backstory.

Jace, this looks a heck of a lot like they are going back to "these aren't the tapes you're
looking for". Please do NOT fall for that trick. Secondly as you posted from Carlos's own
message, he's not close AT ALL in duplicating Billy's MAME tapes. Just because he's
narrowed it down to "it must be some VCR we don't know about" doesn't mean he's close to
anything.

Lastly, are you seriously going to wait an entire extra week just so they can stall for more
time? I mean you do realize what they are doing right? It's going to be a double shotgun blast
Exhibit A - 000974
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 974/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

attack from their end of:

"These aren't tapes of Billy's gameplay"

and

"Here's Billy's friends stating such and such that he couldn't possibly have used MAME"

I'm just hoping you see this coming and are ready to knock both tactics out of the park.

04-03-2018, 04:04 AM
FBX

And to clarify "narrowing it down", I don't mean Carlos actually has narrowed it down to a
magical VCR. That is just his pure speculation as to why he can't get the real hardware to
look like Billy's MAME tapes.

04-03-2018, 04:07 AM
benasselstine

If we're sure of our position (and we are), and there's talk of affidavits (and potential legal
proceedings), the right thing to do is be generous with the time-frames.

After reading 250 pages of this dispute, I would very much like to see a swift conclusion --
it's a large investment of time just to read, and no payoff yet which is unsatisfying.

Yet there are people who have been hurt by these allegedly fake scores: primarily the other
DK players, and the operators of the scoreboard. Secondarily, nobody likes to see cheaters
escape justice.

And it sure is difficult to be accommodating when reading Carlos' reply. Wow.

But yeah, it's probably going to turn into a whole legal thing, and there's supposedly a KOK2
in the works. When this eventually goes in front of a judge, you want your actions to have
been as fair as possible -- and make it clear that more time is given now not because we're not
completely sure of our case, but rather that extra time is given merely because they asked for
it. And they asked for a week. At least.

So let them keep going. Eventually they will run out of wacky theories and go silent. And the
wacky theories are kind of entertaining in a pull-your-hair-out sort of way.

Anyway, I just wanted to speak out against the immediate calls for blood and urge caution.

04-03-2018, 04:16 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by benasselstine

If we're sure of our position (and we are), and there's talk of affidavits (and potential legal
proceedings), the right thing to do is be generous with the time-frames.
Exhibit A - 000975
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 975/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Here's the problem with that: Jace has already given them WEEKS! Think about it logically,
if Billy is innocent, why is it going to take another week to produce more information about
this? Logic dictates that if he were truly innocent, ALL information would have been turned
over immediately. But week after week of stalling tactics and empty promises of verified
proof of innocence? You know who does that? Guilty people.

I'm sorry, but this has gone long enough. I'm starting to see people on social media get angry
at TG again for going beyond the original cutoff date to entertain more wild goose chases, and
it's frankly getting frustrating.

04-03-2018, 05:12 AM
The Evener

This dispute was opened in August 2017, so I believe TG has insulated themselves against
charges of a rush to judgement.

I would like TG to require Joel to divulge the precise nature of these "affidavits" if TG is
going to delay its decision. He was exceedingly vague.

04-03-2018, 05:32 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Here's the problem with that: Jace has already given them WEEKS! Think about it logically,
if Billy is innocent, why is it going to take another week to produce more information about
this?

Because they can see how painfully obvious it is that he played on MAME and crunch time is
looming. Thus they are trying everything they can to delay the inevitable in the hope that
some plan of theirs can clear his name.

There are so, so many valid reasons why this is so clearly MAME. It's blatantly obvious.

Quote:

We continue to keep trying using extreme ideas just to see if anything at all as possible.

It's kind of sad that you have to resort to 'extreme ideas'. I and I'm sure many others can see
the writing is on the wall. Just pull the scores already. He's had enough time to counter this
argument. Enough is enough. If it were any other player with would have been over ages ago.

04-03-2018, 05:34 AM
rotunda

*If it were any other player with would have been over ages ago.

Stupid phone. ha!

04-03-2018, 05:35 AM
rotunda
Exhibit A - 000976
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 976/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Jeez really?

**If it were any other player THIS would have been over ages ago.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/xT5LMESsx1kUe8Hiyk/200_d.gif

04-03-2018, 05:39 AM
kevinjamestobin

I wonder if all of this stalling on Billy's side has anything to do with The King of Kong 2.

04-03-2018, 06:08 AM
NickWalker

It's my first post here so take my opinion for what it's worth, but personally I'd let Team Billy
take all the time they want. Watching them squirm to find any possible way to replicate these
tapes has been one of the funniest things I've ever seen. Is he really going to produce
affidavits next? Where is the popcorn emoji when I need it?

04-03-2018, 06:43 AM
Hotrod6045

Even Jesus Christ Himself could come back and state this was MAME, and we still wouldn’t
see the end of this dispute.

04-03-2018, 06:51 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickWalker

totally agree, the more they lie and act in bad faith the harder they make it to fault the
decision later. now, getting affidavits for things we know to be false!!!! just when you thought
they ran out of nails for the coffin.

oh, and as far as Jace saying he tried everything to reproduce results, i disagree. there's one
step carlos, billy, robert, joel and others used that jace left out. Close your eyes and believe
really hard and anything is impossible.

04-03-2018, 07:08 AM
q43
I feel as if I'm in some sort of Bizarro world
Lately I've been reading a bunch of Youtube comments (because I have a life) on videos about the Billy debacle.
I've seen a lot of comments claiming that East Side Dave was actually making fun of Billy during his interview. So
after re-listening to the show I have now come to the conclusion that Dave is actually a satirical genius that made
fun of Billy cheating to his face.

In the interview he brings up the fact that Peter Dinklage's character in Pixels was partially based on Billy. The
Exhibit A - 000977
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 977/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800
director Christopher Columbus confirmed that, so I went back and re-watched Pixels, in it the character partially
based on Billy cheated. He was egotistical, rude and cheated to be the best arcade gamer ever. The game he cheated
on to win that title was Donkey Kong. So now I conclude that the main writer of Pixels Tim Herlihy is actually
brilliant and way ahead of his time. He was also the co-author of the Ridiculous 6. Bizarro world is a dark place!

So on the 17th of last month Jace states: "We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision."

Then 9 days later he corrected his original statement: "it was 10 business days"

Then 5 days later he claims that new information is holding up the verdict. It seems that all the new information just
confirmed that Billy did not record directly to a VCR from a PCB as claimed. Producing even more evidence
proving guilt is a completely logical reason to wait, on Bizarro World.

Now we're postponing that date again to allow Carlos (the every frame is 2/3rd of a second guy) and Joel (the earth
is 5,000 years old guy) another week to create evidence.

So why did Jace arbitrarily state "less than 10 days away"? I understand completely wanting to take plenty of time
to render an accurate decision. It just seems like setting an end date while the Kong Off was in full swing, backing
off that date, then postponing the verdict again because of more damning evidence, then allowing the defense to
pick the end date is a great way to establish credibility, in some kind of opposite world.

04-03-2018, 07:17 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

This was my concern in bringing up the deadline last week. TG seems largely unable to wrap
up a dispute before the non-TG community completely loses it's patience. It happened with
Dragster and it's happening now...In both cases, the issue could have been wrapped up sooner
and save a lot of bad press.

04-03-2018, 07:22 AM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickWalker

Even if a verdict was rendered here, they would likely keep at their antics. Joel West knows
how to beat a dead horse better than anyone I've ever met (David Race is a close second).

04-03-2018, 07:23 AM
maxim_recoil

Even if they find a VCR which is more tolerant of the non-standard sync pulses so that it
records in normal color, that's not going to magically produce MAME transitions. Why is TG
even entertaining notions that have no technical merit? What's next? A search for a specific
brand of RCA cable that will magically produce MAME transitions? A search for a specific
Exhibit A - 000978
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 978/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

brand of VHS tape? A search for a specific temperature and humidity percentage in the room?
Maybe elevation has something to do with it. They should try it on a mountain top.

04-03-2018, 07:38 AM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

Even if a verdict was rendered here, they would likely keep at their antics. Joel West knows
how to beat a dead horse better than anyone I've ever met (David Race is a close second).

Thats a good point. I was thinking let it drag out so that they can continue to provide evidence
against billy and destroy their own reputation, however you're right, they'd do that anyway.
heck, since the fear is a lawsuit, why let them test ideas now and refine their story in a safe
test ground, let them try their lies and court after the decision.
The only thing needed for a decision is to be 100% sure. As long as you're sure jace then
make the decision. I mean i love how they incriminate themselves further, but blackflag's
single sentence here changed my mind. He's right, they'll continue to provide evidence against
themselves regardless.

04-03-2018, 07:52 AM
sjh

Jace if you aren't ready to make a decision yet, it's probably best you don't make it at all. Or
make it whenever Billy tells you you're allowed to. Whatever.

04-03-2018, 08:03 AM
NickWalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

Even if a verdict was rendered here, they would likely keep at their antics. Joel West knows
how to beat a dead horse better than anyone I've ever met (David Race is a close second).

That's true, I guess the verdict won't matter one way or another for them. At this point I'd like
to see someone try and hack the drawing routine to get the broken girder, maybe you could
add a loop of NOPs to an unused section of the ROM and jump to that as soon as the girder
tail gets drawn so it stays on the screen for a frame, hope Billy et al. are brushing up on their
Z80 assembly.

04-03-2018, 08:17 AM
YesAffinity

Has anyone tried creating a save state'd file (.inp or otherwise), to engineer a score, and that
can be played back in its entirety? It would also be interesting to see if the anomalous 1UP
flasher can be reproduced. Lots of seemingly viable speculation on how it could occur by
using save states, and the code behind the 1UP flasher, but it would be nice to see it actually
reproduced.

I may try to dig into this, since we have now a few more days to explore things. If anyone else
wants to jump on this and invest a little time, it won't hurt to have multiple people producing
the same result.
Exhibit A - 000979
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 979/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

04-03-2018, 08:25 AM
GibGirl

It definitely seems we've reached the point where the outcome is more than reasonably clear,
and now it's just people trying to see how long they can ***** with TG to drag this on.
Maybe in hopes to turn the people paying attention against TG for how this is being handled
and drawn out? The way the Todd Rogers thing went leaves things ripe for easily convincing
a lot of people that TG just wants to draw these out as long as it can for more web traffic. And
since every drop of "new information" is taken as reason to do more research, it feels like they
know they can just keep doing so.

There's a reason that even the courts use "beyond a reasonable doubt" as a standard, not
"absolute certainty". This dispute has definitely reached that "beyond a reasonable doubt"
status. Make the ruling. Let them appeal if they can actually provide evidence to overturn it.

TG is currently being accommodating to a fault.

04-03-2018, 08:48 AM
Welp

What's the rush? If the score is overturned today, or next Tuesday, it makes no difference. If
Billy's team asked for a week to prepare a final response, I think that's fair.

04-03-2018, 09:03 AM
YesAffinity

We should also note that many were getting impatient with the process for Todd Rogers, and
there was a widespread consensus that it was being dragged out, but there is now general
satisfaction with the outcome from that.

04-03-2018, 09:05 AM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

What's the rush? If the score is overturned today, or next Tuesday, it makes no difference. If
Billy's team asked for a week to prepare a final response, I think that's fair.

The rush? This dispute has been open since August last year going by what a previous poster
here said. It's more like what's the hold up in my opinion.

What gets to me isn't any bias toward or against Billy. What annoys me is Steve Wiebe got
royally screwed over for such small things including literally make believe stuff like a gummy
substance on a chip which effects clock speeds... Really?! It was instantly called out and the
score trashed. Now I know we are in a new era of TG but with all this stalling and stuff Billy
is basically still calling the shots somewhat and I think people expect more from this new era
Exhibit A - 000980
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 980/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

of TG. You own TG not him.. Tell him to step in line and shut up.

It's giving TG a bad name and making people think it's still as corrupt as it was when Todd
and Billy were up to no good. It also bugs me that players are getting treated differently. As I
said earlier if this was any other player this would have been accepted ages ago.

By the way, if it really is a lawsuit that is causing this then... Seriously Billy is one sad
motherf****r.

A 50 year old guy suing someone over a old Donkey Kong score haha! It's pathetic.

04-03-2018, 09:05 AM
Kinnijup

As an outsider just following everything, I feel like we shouldn't really blame Jace for
changing the deadlines. He's the one basically getting legal threats (the affidavit thing), not all
of us following everything. If everyone who follows leaderboards knows Billy cheated (which
seems to be the case aside from a few Billy supporters) it's not a huge deal if the score is kept
up while Jace handles things internally. He's given no indication that he's going to keep the
score up and has said a lot of things that imply he thinks Billy cheated and will be removing
the 1m+ runs from Billy eventually.

04-03-2018, 09:19 AM
Prophecyrob

This latest stall tactic is silly. I hope Jace responded to Billy’s team and asked “what are you
guys going to be presenting me in a week?” Cuz if it’s bs about colors or shutter speeds Jace
should shut them down hard. If it’s Billy’s actual set up showing the girder finger then
fine...bring it on in 7 days. Kinda obvious though with the clock winding down that they want
an extension.

Overall, let them hang themselves. That guy whining about his wife’s business getting
hammered has hopefully learned a very valuable life lesson. Do some research on who and
what you are publicly gonna defend before jumping in cuz YOUR reputation and life could
take a hit in the age of the Internet.

Something I wanna touch on is the legal jargon Billy’s team throws around....affidavits this
and court that and legal blah blah blah. Billy may send off some legal letter to Jace but it’s
gonna be some worthless scare tactic from either Billy’s fellow DK cheater friend Steve
Sanders or maybe another lawyer Steve knows and will do it pro bono. Jace will hopefully
laugh it off as the joke it is. The bottom line is BILLY WILL NOT SUE TG OVER THIS.
Why won’t he? Cuz it would make this waaaay to public and the mainstream press might
even pick up the story. Remember Billy and Walter are still travelling and doing appearances
cuz the general public doesn’t realize he is a giant cheater. If Billy launches an official
lawsuit, the press jumps on it, the public finds out and his sweet honey pot dries up. Simple as
that. Even at the KO6 Billy Mamechell is on the panel video saying “I wish we weren’t here
talking about this - I wanna be out there playing games and having fun” Yeah I’m sure you
wish we weren’t talking about your cheating ways *********. You want this to be swept
under the rug so you can keep being a fame ***** (like Richie and your other nuthanging
pube suckers) and travel around the country for free doing appearances.

When TG rules on this we gotta spread the word and get some media coverage to shut the
Billy Circus down. Billy being shunned is his worst fear. It’s already sorta started with only
Robbie and Ross being at the KO6 as TOP TOP players.
Exhibit A - 000981
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 981/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Anyway, can’t wait to see this 7 day stall evidence Team Billy. You guys rock!

Admin edit to remove personal insults

04-03-2018, 09:25 AM
YesAffinity

This dispute has been open since August, but up until Feb. 2nd, it was a lot of speculation,
hearsay and circumstantial evidence. On Feb. 2nd, the significantly more compelling
evidence was introduced, correlating single frames from Billy's tapes to those produced by
MAME, and contrasting them with the same frames from arcade gameplay. as well as
providing additional technical substantiation to the claim/dispute. Prior to Feb 2nd, there was
a weak argument, not instilling much confidence that the claims/dispute had merit. As of Feb
2nd, there is a strong argument, giving confidence that Billy's tapes are representative of
MAME gameplay and are not representative of arcade gameplay.

2 months is not a long time, considering how much ground has been covered, and that most of
us that are adding information/research are doing it in our free time and out of our own
pockets. That is true for both sides of the conversation. I jumped into the fray because I was
already in a position to start adding value to the discussion, without having to overcome
technological, financial and "learning curve" hurdles that others would...i.e. I already had a
direct feed and MAME cabinet in place.

So, folks, with all due respect, if you want to speed things up, get involved. Identify anything
that needs to be explored and put to rest, whatever side of the conversation you're on (or
better yet, from an impartial standpoint), and take on the task. If you don't like the
information and results being provided, generate your own information and results.

To quote Matt Damon in The Martian: “You just do the math and solve the problem. And then
onto the next problem and solve that problem. And solve the next problem too. And if you
solve enough problems, you get to go home.”

On that note, I haven't seen anyone else volunteering to dig in to the save state/playback
recreation. ;)

04-03-2018, 09:27 AM
Welp

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

The rush? This dispute has been open since August last year going by what a previous poster
here said. It's more like what's the hold up in my opinion.

Jace has made it very clear recently there were 10 days left till they reach a verdict. This gave
Billy and co the time to do what they need to (as if they haven't had months already, right?) It
gets close to the deadline and Billy's lot say "hey we have more evidence wait a week." If it
was me I wouldn't let TG be dictated to like that. The whole wait we have some more BS to
feed you thing... It's getting old. Wait a week, wait another week... The writing is on the wall.
The sound issues, the transitions, the inability to record using even Billy's hardware... I could
Exhibit A - 000982
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 982/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

go on...

I think at the end of the day, it still doesn't matter. You and I, and everyone else, can make our
own conclusions about whether Billy is guilty. You clearly already have, and I am pretty
positive that he is too. We don't need TG's stamp of approval to believe that. But I do
appreciate that there is an organization that is going to exhaustively test every facet of this
thing in an effort to be 100% sure before they remove a score, especially a historically
significant one. No one wants a situation where TG makes a definitive ruling, and then a year
later someone says "Whoops! I found a specific setting that can cause rendering anomalies
similar to MAME when a two-bit board is used!" Just take your time and do it right.

Do I wish it was over? Sure. But three months from now, or three years from now, no one is
going to remember how it took an extra week because Billy's people wanted to put out a
response.

04-03-2018, 09:41 AM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

A 50 year old guy suing someone over a old Donkey Kong score haha! It's pathetic.

RTM REPLY - not quite as sad as a 55-60 year-old suing TG over a "Missile Command"
score !!

04-03-2018, 10:38 AM
FBX

I'll say this: If it turns out Billy and Joel can effectively manipulate Jace with either A:
Threats or B: Jedi mind tricks or C: We can all make out well in a new KoK movie, then I'm
out.

I used to despise TG back when I worked for it, and the way Jace handles these disputes gave
me real promise that the company was FINALLY going in the right direction. But if Billy and
his minions manage to sweet-talk or lawyer-talk Jace out of doing what we all know must
have been done by now, then that's it for me. I will never promote TG again, and I actually
have been lately on threads that think it's still the same old corruption going on.

04-03-2018, 10:57 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

Exhibit A - 000983
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 983/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

"These aren't tapes of Billy's gameplay"

and

"Here's Billy's friends stating such and such that he couldn't possibly have used MAME"

I'm just hoping you see this coming and are ready to knock both tactics out of the park.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

The tapes we have are already definitely confirmed to be the performances that were
adjudicated by TG for Billys scores 1047/1050.

Particularly the 1047 which literally appears in the film King of Kong and is an exact match.
So I'm not sure that the idea that these tapes arent the ones that referees used for adjudication
is something that would make sense.

Regarding the issue of honoring the request for a few more days time to provide additional
information in the dispute, there is no need to physically rush on any of this. It is important
for TG to be as reasonably dispassionate and comprehensive as possible in dispute matters.
We can continue to use the time to explore further ideas on our end and also allow others to
contribute if they discover something in the meantime.

This matter will eventually resolve one way or the other.

04-03-2018, 11:07 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackflag82

Let me be clear.

Do not care about "bad press" based on the emotional impatience of others
This is not about making people feel good, or feel anything at all. This is about verifying data
integrity.
This is about being as reasonably comprehensive as possible when evaluating dispute
Exhibit A - 000984
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 984/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

evidence assertions.
None of the people who want haste have to live with the decision forever and be prepared to
justify it.
It is TG's job to go through these matters in painstaking detail, however long it takes and do it
right.

04-03-2018, 11:09 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

The tapes we have are already definitely confirmed to be the performances that were
adjudicated by TG for Billys scores 1047/1050.

04-03-2018, 11:09 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

There is no fear of lawsuit. None. Zero. That is some kind of weird fantasy that the
community created.

Fear of lawsuit has nothing to do with the comprehensive process being employed here.

04-03-2018, 11:13 AM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evener

I hope Joel is reading that (or maximum steve can pass it on to him) - it would seem like from
his statement "I have several statements/affiadavits I am in the process of getting which will
shed some light on tapes “Billy claimed” he was the player on," that he didn't get the memo. It
would be a shame if he rounded up all those statements for nothing.
Exhibit A - 000985
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 985/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

That wording seemed odd to me, also, unless the affidavits are going to speak to someone else
creating the gameplay, which was then passed off as being played by Billy for any number of
reasons. *The popcorn comes out once again*

04-03-2018, 11:15 AM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotunda

No one is being treated differently. That is a false assertion. Every dispute case is unique and
must be treated as such. It is also a false assertion that this would be different if it was
someone else.

04-03-2018, 11:46 AM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

I used to despise TG back when I worked for it

Grammar spellcheck police:

"I used to despise TG back when I worked for them" :P

(revenge is sweet, eh?) ;)

04-03-2018, 11:51 AM
Chaco Chicken

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

I'm a neutral observer here. I have to say that, as an anthropologist that often engages in
extensive scientific study, you have completed a more than adequate inquiry of the dispute. I
read the entirety of the Dragster thread and have followed every post in this dispute as well.
You went to substantial lengths to ostensibly defend Todd Rogers and unnecessarily
prolonged adjudication of that dispute. That isn't my opinion, it's plainly visible in the thread.
That being said I don't envy your position in dealing with such matters as you'll alienate
someone regardless of the outcome.

However it's painfully obvious that Billy Mitchell generated his game scores through the use
of MAME software. It's fair to say that your continued insistence on being "thorough" can
easily be taken as disingenuous given the comments and painstaking efforts evident with
Dragster. It was impossible to generate a 5.51. It is equally impossible for a DK arcade to
Exhibit A - 000986
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 986/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

raster screens in the fashion seen in Mitchell's video. Paired with the other evidence (the
blatant duplicity with regards to the DK/DKJr board swap, the very unusual statistics for
barrel smashes, and the conspicuous lack of credible witnesses despite the claims of "a 100
people") further delaying is, at best, gratuitous, and damaging to the credibility of TG as it
creates an atmosphere of favoritism rather than the dispassionate neutrality you seek.

Unsolicited advice portion: Remove Billy Mitchell's scores and rightfully advance up the
board those players that credibly compiled high scores at Donkey Kong.

04-03-2018, 11:57 AM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Grammar spellcheck police:

"I used to despise TG back when I worked for them" :P

(revenge is sweet, eh?) ;)

That's weak, and you know it. Saying 'should of' isn't English. What I said still technically is.

04-03-2018, 11:58 AM
The Evener

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Let me be clear.

Do not care about "bad press" based on the emotional impatience of others
This is not about making people feel good, or feel anything at all. This is about verifying data
integrity.
This is about being as reasonably comprehensive as possible when evaluating dispute
evidence assertions.
None of the people who want haste have to live with the decision forever and be prepared to
justify it.
It is TG's job to go through these matters in painstaking detail, however long it takes and do it
right.

Thank you Jace for your patience in leading through this dispute. It has been thorough,
informative, and appreciated. I found last Friday's video very insightful about the equipment
used by Billy.

In reference to "haste" - I don't want this to come across as "it's your fault," although it will
sound that way. A couple of weeks ago you posted that TG was "10 days or less" away from a
decision. Perhaps you shared the deadline because you also wanted to keep the community
fully informed about the pace of TG's deliberations. Perhaps it was shared in order to keep the
team's focus in examining the issues in a timely manner. It certainly felt like TG's
investigation was wrapping up. I appreciated the update. I also realize that we can't be
dogmatic about updates - if new evidence arises, even on the eve of a decision, of course it
should be examined such as the direct feed evidence.

Exhibit A - 000987
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 987/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

In reference to TG deliberations, I don't know the line between going "through matters in
pain-staking detail" and being sent around on a wild goose chase. That said, I am suspicious
of individuals requesting 11th hour deferrals who have displayed gross contempt for this
process and for all if its participants in the past. But perhaps my suspicion is a luxury in this
situation.

I would propose one small amendment to one of your concluding statements - in addition to
the TG administration, we as TG members will also have to live with the decision; we will be
"called on" by our peers to justify the decision flowing from this dispute and our membership
in the TG community. There are stakes all around.

04-03-2018, 11:59 AM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

That's weak, and you know it. Saying 'should of' isn't English. What I said still technically is.

OK! Trying to ease your tension is all... :)

04-03-2018, 12:09 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

OK! Trying to ease your tension is all... :)

No worries. I'm a 'Gen Xer' and as such, people of my age often get into discussions about
how the pervasive usage of 'should of' seems to have only cropped up in the era of the Internet
age (mostly with Millennials). Back in my day of red ink on your homework in English class,
nobody and I mean NOBODY ever confused "should've" with "should of". So it's sort of like
nails on a chalk board for me whenever I see it. I don't go around correcting misspellings or
other grammatical errors on everyone's post, but when I see "should of" or "could of" or "may
of", I can't help myself.

Anyway, enough of the off topic rant (and my apologies for doing it).

04-03-2018, 12:12 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Then why is it that you have had the evidence and refuse to pull the trigger? Billy used
MAME, you know he did. What possible reason do you have at this point to wait for more
evidence? All you are doing is making TG look weak and like Billy is still running things.

04-03-2018, 12:14 PM
Marcade
Exhibit A - 000988
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 988/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

There is still "good" in Jace. Yes, I can feel it! ;)

Even though a lot of us (including myself at times) disagree with some of his decisions and
methods, I am grateful that everything here thrives of full transparency. (Something that
lacked with past owners)

My own verdict was confirmed after watching the entire 4 hour live video feed from last
month.
In the end, I strongly believe Jace will make the right choice with the outcome.

04-03-2018, 12:28 PM
rotunda

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTM

RTM REPLY - not quite as sad as a 55-60 year-old suing TG over a "Missile Command"
score !!

I had no idea this was even a thing haha! Let me guess, Roy? haha!!

04-03-2018, 12:40 PM
Prophecyrob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Come on Jace, really? Billy and this dispute is being treated no differently than other
disputes?

This is where you lose me.

Question: You would buy a $6000 vcr, have an independent gamer like Gleed do testing and
drag this on for months if let’s say Robot Bowl was under dispute? It’s okay to admit you are
going above and beyond on this one brother. It’s an important score with extending
repercussions.

PS Loads of top retro gamers truly believe you are wasting our time with these delays cuz of
the TG web traffic and no statement will change that belief.

04-03-2018, 12:40 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Just found this on youtube. Wondering if there is a response to it? Let's see if I get autobanned
for bringing it up as the comment says.

"Marc merica is a TG gamer who DOES NOT exist and was Created by a ref who had
vendetta against another gamer he did not like. 2.TEE jester a gamer who also DOES NOT
EXIST was created by referee tom Duncan to beat back any scores that anyone beat of tom
duncans useally 5 minutes after they were verified IM SERIOUS flyhec from TG will back
me up on it 3. Active gamer at TG matthew Felix uses save states to beat mame scores as Ive
Exhibit A - 000989
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 989/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

seen thru his INP wolf mame submissions and they get verified anyway.Had at one time 1000
rejected cheated scores until will mcevoy stepped in and deleted the rejected submission cue
outta matt felix account and he is STILL submitting cheated scores and NOTHING was ever
done about the cheating that was caught and if you bring it up TG will auto ban your forum
accountï»¿"

04-03-2018, 12:44 PM
omega175

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Even if they find a VCR which is more tolerant of the non-standard sync pulses so that it
records in normal color, that's not going to magically produce MAME transitions. Why is TG
even entertaining notions that have no technical merit? What's next? A search for a specific
brand of RCA cable that will magically produce MAME transitions? A search for a specific
brand of VHS tape? A search for a specific temperature and humidity percentage in the room?
Maybe elevation has something to do with it. They should try it on a mountain top.

That magical VCR not only had good colors, produced MAME transitions, but also made and
recorded TWO world records on two different machines in one day (dare I say afternoon, not
a day?) Don't forget, they had enough time to pack up, go to a dinner, talk about it and decide
they want to record the board swap, come back, set everything back up again and even setup a
laptop (for some reason) and do the infamous board swap. All of that in one day before the
place closed up for the evening.

04-03-2018, 12:49 PM
Welp

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

Even if they find a VCR which is more tolerant of the non-standard sync pulses so that it
records in normal color, that's not going to magically produce MAME transitions. Why is TG
even entertaining notions that have no technical merit? What's next? A search for a specific
brand of RCA cable that will magically produce MAME transitions? A search for a specific
brand of VHS tape? A search for a specific temperature and humidity percentage in the room?
Maybe elevation has something to do with it. They should try it on a mountain top.

I don't think TG is really searching for the VCR? Carlos is. But obviously, it seems wildly
unlikely that this will be successful. You'd think if they needed a specific VCR for this to
work, they'd have remembered that detail when they published their setup.

04-03-2018, 01:40 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

It's a wild goose chase. Carlos actually admitted that he couldn't get the setup Billy claimed to
have used to work on any VCR he tried. BUT, because he speculated there MIGHT be a VCR
Exhibit A - 000990
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 990/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

where is does make the arcade look like MAME, he concluded that he was 'close' to proving
Billy's innocence. I mean, is it just me, or does anyone else find this utterly absurd?

04-03-2018, 02:00 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welp

I don't think TG is really searching for the VCR? Carlos is.

When I said "they" I was referring to Carlos, Billy, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are VCRs out there that can record the output of a DK board +
Two-Bits RGB-to-composite device in normal color. It's well known that some NTSC devices
are more tolerant of non-standard video signals than others are. However, finding such a VCR
doesn't change anything, because the real issue is the MAME transitions, and no VCR is
going to create those MAME transitions ex nihilo except by an act of God. The reason
Mitchell's tapes contain MAME transitions is because he used MAME.

Jace Hall's response to this Search for the Holy VCR was:

Quote:

In my opinion, a more appropriate response would have been, "The idea that a VCR can
conjure up MAME transitions has no technical merit (i.e., it is pure fantasy) and is therefore
not worth considering."

04-03-2018, 02:05 PM
CraigA

Sorry but this has turned into an absolute clown show and you are going to alienate a ton of
people.

Every other dispute would be handled the same? Not only laughable but insulting.

04-03-2018, 02:08 PM
YesAffinity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

have an independent gamer like Gleed

Let's be clear, nobody is having me do anything. I got involved of my own accord, after
voicing very early on (Feb. 3rd or 4th, I believe) that I had concerns over comparing video
frames from archives that clearly had quality issues, against current generation digital
captures. Being that I was the only one at the time that could reasonably provide evidence for
deeper analysis, I felt somewhat obligated...but I do enjoy it as well...to a certain extent.

I requested that Jace send me one of the TBS encoders, quite honestly, after telling him I
Exhibit A - 000991
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 991/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

couldn't spend any more time on the effort. Our "offline" communication (via PM) up to that
point had been very minimal. And frankly, I couldn't spend more time on it...I have a family
(who is thankfully very supportive), I work 40-50 hours per week minimum in a very
demanding environment...but I have continued my efforts, in the interest of providing a
service to the community. Offline communication between Jace and I since then has
continued to be fairly minimal - comparing some notes and I've threatened to send this TBS
encoder back 2 or 3 times now, but am still holding onto it in the interest of "something new"
coming out of team Billy in the next week that will need urgent attention. (I joke about that, I
have offered to send it back a couple times...)

I can honestly say I'm coming out on the other side of the efforts having gained significant
knowledge in many aspects of video formats, processing, generation, etc. This knowledge is
already proving useful in other personal/hobby pursuits. So, I consider myself fortunate to be
involved at the level I am, in these things that I am passionate about, and to be gaining
knowledge in the process. In the whole scheme of things, if we can do the things we love and
gain from it in the process, then that's the dream, right?

But, back to the original point, nobody is having me do anything except me and maybe some
feeling of obligation to the community as a whole.

04-03-2018, 02:17 PM
datagod

Affidavits? Somebody is willing to sign a legal document about a technological issue, but are
not willing to come to the forum and make their comments here?

Affidavits are worthless. Somebody somewhere has signed a piece of paper stating their
opinion on an issue. Big deal.

You know what they do on the People's Court? DENIED!

04-03-2018, 02:19 PM
Spoofer

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigA

Every other dispute would be handled the same? Not only laughable but insulting.

As another outside observer, I'll spare everyone the TLDR version I might have otherwise
written, other than to say this ^.

04-03-2018, 02:19 PM
YesAffinity

Those of you that are calling the length of time being taken and what should be considered
appropriate, should take a look at the list in the current dispute forum. Does the high profile
nature of this particular dispute have some effect on the ends to which it is being reviewed?
Probably. But, there are plenty of disputes that have been open for longer, and having
seemingly less complicated issues to resolve and with a lot less opposition.

04-03-2018, 02:28 PM
Prophecyrob

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000992
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 992/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

I requested that Jace send me one of the TBS encoders, quite honestly, after telling him I
couldn't spend any more time on the effort. Our "offline" communication (via PM) up to that
point had been very minimal. And frankly, I couldn't spend more time on it...I have a family
(who is thankfully very supportive), I work 40-50 hours per week minimum in a very
demanding environment...but I have continued my efforts, in the interest of providing a
service to the community. Offline communication between Jace and I since then has
continued to be fairly minimal - comparing some notes and I've threatened to send this TBS
encoder back 2 or 3 times now, but am still holding onto it in the interest of "something new"
coming out of team Billy in the next week that will need urgent attention. (I joke about that, I
have offered to send it back a couple times...)

But, back to the original point, nobody is having me do anything except me and maybe some
feeling of obligation to the community as a whole.

The way I used the word “have” was not implying that TG was making you do the
investigation work. I was using that particular sentence that way cuz I was not fully aware if
you asked TG or if they asked you. I apologize that I was not clearer on this and didn’t mean
to offend. My point was overall there is a **** tonne of work happening for what is clearly
cheating and other titles and players WOULD NEVER IN A GOD DAMN MILLION
YEARS RECEIVE THIS KINDA GENTLE BUM WIPING THAT BILLY GIGANTIC
CHEATER IS GETTING. And we all know it.

04-03-2018, 02:35 PM
Prophecyrob

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

Are they Arcade disputes? Let’s compare apples to apples.

04-03-2018, 02:37 PM
YesAffinity

^It shouldn't matter if all disputes are handled the same. :)

Exhibit A - 000993
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 993/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

04-03-2018, 03:14 PM
sdwyer138

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesAffinity

^It shouldn't matter if all disputes are handled the same. :)

at least donkey kong exists. I’ve raised disputes for scores that can’t exist and they are hardly
getting any attention

04-03-2018, 03:15 PM
Marcade

Team Billy's legal defense team pleads their case...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UomlFv9htPw

04-03-2018, 03:20 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

There is no special treatment involved. This is being handled according to the needs of the
dispute.

People say that Billy is a gigantic cheater, but how do they know this as definitive fact? You
say that it is "clearly cheating" so how do you know that as definitive fact?

Do people make these grand assertions while clamoring for action to be immediately taken
and condemning anyone/anything that doesn't adhere based on the personal work that they
have done to investigate the matter on a technical basis? Or is all the consternation from what
they have read so far of the work of others?

Fact - Until TG spent the time to actually know what the output of a TWO-BIT converter
actually was when connected to a DK machine, they would never have been able to say for
absolute certain that it could not inadvertently produce the images seen in Billy's
performances. There are a long list of elements like this that have been brought forth due to
taking the appropriate time to investigate the matter fully.

Its fine if some people feel that they have seen enough to conclude on their own. No issue
there. TG is not trying to tell people what to conclude. TG is focused on coming to its own
conclusion based on thoroughly vetting the presented dispute claim evidence.

We all went through this with the Dragster dispute. Same accusations of special treatment -
completely false. Exhibit A - 000994
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 994/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Maybe after 50 more high profile disputes people will start to accept the reality of the process
more at face value as they properly should.

04-03-2018, 03:32 PM
Snowflake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

There is no special treatment involved. This is being handled according to the needs of the
dispute.

People say that Billy is a gigantic cheater, but how do they know this as definitive fact? You
say that it is "clearly cheating" so how do you know that as definitive fact?

We all went through this with the Dragster dispute. Same accusations of special treatment -
completely false.

Maybe after 50 more high profile disputes people will start to accept the reality of the process
more at face value as they properly should.

Jace you have done a fantastic job with this, and you know up until now people were patient.
This was why I asked my earlier question of whats left for you to do, and you pretty much
said you couldnt figure anything else out except try to come up with some sort of creative
answer. Thats whats making things so different now, you've already done the job, a really
good job, so its hard to see whats left for you to do. The plea for more time to come up with
yet another conflicting story is also a sore point. How many times are you going to let them
act in bad faith and take it seriously? The moment the story changed the first time it was time
to stop listening to their games. I think this is why you're seeing so much impatience today
when there was much patience earlier. Not only have you already done all you can do, but
their responses are just all the more infuriating, asking for more time to come up with a
different answer. Its a bit much.

I mean comeon, the board swap, then the converter, now some special vcr how many story
changes do you need before you realize team billy is just mocking you. how many outright
lies has their "expert" given? lets see 1.5 frames per second, wes's game looking like mame,
mame versions with those transitions not existing at the time of billy's submission, laptops not
being able to send those signals, the list goes on and on of just complete foolishness, and
Exhibit A - 000995
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 995/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

when the foolishness is called out its replaced with a different set of foolishnesss. They'll go
on forever if you let them.

04-03-2018, 03:42 PM
Prophecyrob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

There is no special treatment involved. This is being handled according to the needs of the
dispute.

People say that Billy is a gigantic cheater, but how do they know this as definitive fact? You
say that it is "clearly cheating" so how do you know that as definitive fact?

We all went through this with the Dragster dispute. Same accusations of special treatment -
completely false.

Maybe after 50 more high profile disputes people will start to accept the reality of the process
more at face value as they properly should.

The fact that you just said “high profile dispute” proves my point that this is special treatment
because it is not Robot Bowl or Break Thru or Head On.

BTW some players have suspected Billy was cheating years ago like Hank. Also, you really
thought a 2 Bit Convertor was gonna make the girder finger AND the rivet collapse anomaly
and the pie factory girder and the DKJR loading like MAME? Wow. Maybe this is getting
drawn out cuz you aren’t technically savvy or are just a little gullible on what electronics can
and can’t do. SMH

04-03-2018, 03:48 PM
Prophecyrob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

There is no special treatment involved. This is being handled according to the needs of the
dispute.

Exhibit A - 000996
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 996/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

People say that Billy is a gigantic cheater, but how do they know this as definitive fact? You
say that it is "clearly cheating" so how do you know that as definitive fact?

We all went through this with the Dragster dispute. Same accusations of special treatment -
completely false.

Maybe after 50 more high profile disputes people will start to accept the reality of the process
more at face value as they properly should.

Also, you think there is room for FIFTY MORE high profile disputes? Jesus man, how
screwed up are the arcade scores? There could be 50 big disputes in the database OR do you
think the arcade community is full of cheaters who will submit 50 future corrupt scores?
Either way you meant it you have a wonderful way of speaking about your company.
Fabulous branding of TG. No wonder so many have lost faith.

04-03-2018, 03:57 PM
RomulusVonFlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

Yea, I would assume they did not know about all this when they purchased the company.
There probably are going to be several more disputes from the early arcade days. Apparently
a bunch of referee verified scores are actually impossible.

04-03-2018, 03:59 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Jace you have done a fantastic job with this, and you know up until now people were patient.
This was why I asked my earlier question of whats left for you to do, and you pretty much
Exhibit A - 000997
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 997/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

said you couldnt figure anything else out except try to come up with some sort of creative
answer. Thats whats making things so different now, you've already done the job, a really
good job, so its hard to see whats left for you to do. The plea for more time to come up with
yet another conflicting story is also a sore point. How many times are you going to let them
act in bad faith and take it seriously? The moment the story changed the first time it was time
to stop listening to their games. I think this is why you're seeing so much impatience today
when there was much patience earlier. Not only have you already done all you can do, but
their responses are just all the more infuriating, asking for more time to come up with a
different answer. Its a bit much.

I mean comeon, the board swap, then the converter, now some special vcr how many story
changes do you need before you realize team billy is just mocking you. how many outright
lies has their "expert" given? lets see 1.5 frames per second, wes's game looking like mame,
mame versions with those transitions not existing at the time of billy's submission, laptops not
being able to send those signals, the list goes on and on of just complete foolishness, and
when the foolishness is called out its replaced with a different set of foolishnesss. They'll go
on forever if you let them.

In Joel's request, he specifically states that they want to present technical evidence/answers to
the dispute and has asked to be allowed to do this through the weekend. The facts are:

1) There is no emergency when it comes to this or any score. No one is going to die if a
decision is not made right this second. No babies will be harmed in the absence of a decision
right this second. The score being disputed has been in the database for many years. Joel
asking for a few days more to be able to contribute to this dispute thread, for any reason at all,
is not objectively problematic in terms of time. While it may be emotionally problematic for
some of the spectating audience, emotional satisfaction is not the primary function of the
dispute system, database integrity is.

2) In Joel's note he indicated that in his view, allowing for his team a last opportunity to
address the dispute claim would help demonstrably show TG impartiality toward the process
in the eyes of himself and others. This is anecdotal and not of great significance to TG, but it
is something that Joel thought was worth mentioning.

3) While we all stand together confident in our collective findings so far, it is possible that we
all have somehow overlooked something critical and Joel wants to contribute information in
that area. The fact is that we don't know what we don't know. To deny Joel his few days
request for a final opportunity to provide information that he claims as trans-formative and
relevant, on the basis of a need to rush so that the spectating community can be emotionally
satisfied, is not the way TG should handle the dispute process.

4.) There are still a couple other extreme edge case tests TG can do in the time allotment that
would be useful to eliminate as theoretically remote possibilities.

I think that once Joel/Carlos presents whatever they are going to present, we will be able to
weigh all of the presented evidence and make a final decision.

We are ok with the few days that have been requested. We will not be ok with much time
beyond it.

04-03-2018, 04:04 PM
FBX

Quote:
Exhibit A - 000998
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 998/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

People say that Billy is a gigantic cheater, but how do they know this as definitive fact? You
say that it is "clearly cheating" so how do you know that as definitive fact?

It's in the face of the transition screens themselves. We already know MAME draws transition
screens entirely different than arcade from thge very first screen caps submitted for evidence.
It didn't require spending weeks of testing wild goose chases to be able to identify the
blatantly obvious. However, I'm not saying it was a wasted effort to do so anyway. What I am
saying is this case has already been proven beyond reasonable expectations that the tapes are
MAME gameplay. Do we know this for a fact? Only in the same way we look at DNA, so
yes. Remember that DNA is only a statistical tool. In court cases, they technically cannot say
"we found the defendant's DNA on the weapon". They can only say the odds of it NOT being
his DNA. Thus, demonstrating the obvious.

If you want definitive fact, you're never going to get there, and Billy's team is banking on this.
Chase a mythical VCR, run a myriad of tests to get real arcade to completely change its raster
coding, entertain notions of conspiracies, etc. All of it leads to an infinite void of a never-
ending dispute.

04-03-2018, 04:10 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

The fact that you just said “high profile dispute” proves my point that this is special treatment
because it is not Robot Bowl or Break Thru or Head On.

I said "High Profile Dispute" because that references the disputes that people make these
"special treatment" accusations on. People ignore the other ones no matter what happens in
them so how would 50 of the "non-high profile disputes" have any impact on the issue I was
addressing? They can't.

Quote:

I'm not sure if you understand the nature of a dispute. It's not about what I think or don't think.
It is about FACT CHECKING. In order to make a decision on a dispute TG has to check the
assertions. It can't assume anything. It has to methodically go through each item and test it as
best as possible and the "check" the box on the long list of items as having been completed.

If you took your car into the shop and told them that your wheel wobbled, they would not just
assume the problem MUST be the wheel. They have to check the suspension system, the tire,
the wheel itself, etc. Its a list of things they MUST go down as part of their work. If they
don't, and just make some assumptions, they can easily be wrong in their conclusion.

This is about comprehensiveness and thoroughness. Not diving into an issue with a bunch of

Exhibit A - 000999
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 999/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

assumptions. So yes, we had to get a 2 Bit Converter and actually see for ourselves what it
does, with no assumptions.

04-03-2018, 04:11 PM
RTM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benasselstine

But yeah, it's probably going to turn into a whole legal thing, and there's supposedly a KOK2
in the works

RTM REPLY - at this point I would not put it past "someone" to keep stalling for time
because they have a vested interested in the outcome of this possible sequel.

More drama...whether good or bad...is more publicity for the film, leading to higher ticket
sales and, depending on contractual agreements, higher percentages.

04-03-2018, 04:14 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prophecyrob

I don't think about it one way or the other. Dont care how many more there are. They will all
eventually get sorted. That is the point and process of the dispute system.

04-03-2018, 04:17 PM
Marcade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

I think that once Joel/Carlos presents whatever they are going to present, we will be able to
weigh all of the presented evidence and make a final decision.

We are ok with the few days that have been requested. We will not be ok with much time
beyond it.

Full transparency...

Their evidence on THIS thread only? Or in their own Facebook wall, in which most cannot
access?
Exactly what day and time will a final decision be rendered, and this dispute ultimately
closed?

04-03-2018, 04:19 PM
Exhibit A - 0001000
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1000/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

It's in the face of the transition screens themselves. We already know MAME draws transition
screens entirely different than arcade from thge very first screen caps submitted for evidence.
.

No. We did not know this for certain.

At the time of the very first screen caps, the output of every single DK arcade rev board was
not tested. The PCB oputput rotation was not tested. Etc.

No. We did not know this for certain. It was assumed.

This is fine for you. This is fine for the spectating crowd. This is not fine for TG. TG can't
make leaps like that. It has to investigate it with a reasonable amount of comprehensive work.

I hope you can see the difference and importance. If not, that's ok, it just means I am unable to
explain it well.

04-03-2018, 04:20 PM
Blackflag82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Let me be clear.

Do not care about "bad press" based on the emotional impatience of others
This is not about making people feel good, or feel anything at all. This is about verifying data
integrity.
This is about being as reasonably comprehensive as possible when evaluating dispute
evidence assertions.
None of the people who want haste have to live with the decision forever and be prepared to
justify it.
It is TG's job to go through these matters in painstaking detail, however long it takes and do it
right.

I think it's great that you're not adjusting TG's schedule because of "bad press." My use of that
term was not to suggest that you should. My use of that term was to state that (by your own
admission in a later post) TG basically has all the information they need to render a decision,
but are adjusting a schedule based on Joel's request. That creates some animosity within the
community. That's fine, it's your prerogative to do it as you see fit. In my opinion, it is
possible to be thorough in the way TG is attempting to be and to avoid bad press as a result of
it, and (again, imo) TG has not learned where that line is.

As an aside, I don't mean any of the above to be critical of the job you all have been doing on
this dispute. I think the thoroughness coupled with the transparency is infinitely better than
how Dragster was handled, and it is good to see that improvements on all fronts are
progressing. It makes it seem that these disputes will continue to be handled in an
increasingly professional and transparent way. Also, thanks for your post re: the reasoning
behind the decision to give Joel a few extra days.
Exhibit A - 001001
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1001/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

04-03-2018, 04:23 PM
Jace Hall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcade

Full transparency...

Their evidence on THIS thread only? Or in their own Facebook wall, in which most cannot
access?
Exactly what day and time will a final decision be rendered, and this dispute ultimately
closed?

Only evidence in this dispute thread is what is considered.

We can not give you a specific day and time without seeing what Joel/Carlos present. We
hope for this dispute to resolve as soon as it reasonably can.

04-03-2018, 04:31 PM
Snowflake

so then to be clear, then i want to ask a few what if

What if this weekend comes, they turn over nothing but ask for more time?
What if they turn over info, that is either debunked, or is true but irrelevent, and then they
change thier story again and ask for more time, will they be given more time?

04-03-2018, 04:33 PM
swaggers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This is about comprehensiveness and thoroughness. Not diving into an issue with a bunch of
assumptions. So yes, we had to get a 2 Bit Converter and actually see for ourselves what it
does, with no assumptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

No. We did not know this for certain.

At the time of the very first screen caps, the output of every single DK arcade rev board was
not tested. The PCB oputput rotation was not tested. Etc.
Exhibit A - 001002
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1002/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

No. We did not know this for certain. It was assumed.

This is fine for you. This is fine for the spectating crowd. This is not fine for TG. TG can't
make leaps like that. It has to investigate it with a reasonable amount of comprehensive work.

I hope you can see the difference and importance. If not, that's ok, it just means I am unable to
explain it well.

You keep saying this like all disputes are treated the same which is simply not true. How
many games of Striker 1941 did TG play to definitively decide that a score can not end in
zero? Throughout 2 disputes there is ZERO actual evidence put forth except for people
claiming its not possible. Not a single screen shot or video was presented but those went
through. This thread has produced actual evidence and in this case instead of just believing
the word of the users, TG has spent time and real money going beyond what the users have
uncovered themselves. So you tell me how all these disputes are treated equally.

04-03-2018, 04:40 PM
JJT_Defender

Jace Hall a Few questions Besides the Obvious.

1. On the Billy Mitchell Complete Game Video of Arcade Donkey Kong Score of 1,062,800.

1.Does it Show in the Background People going by, Multiple Flashing Lights, Other Arcade
Games Behind and on the Sides of the when he was Playing,

2. Was their Audio in the Video Completed Game Play of DK like People Talking,
Announcements on the Loud Speaker, Kids Playing, Music that it was Played at Boomers

Or does the Billy Mitchell's Arcade DK Completed Game Play Video is in the Dark then
without Question he Played at Home in a Dark Room.

Therefore it would clearly be a a Lie that Billy Mitchell Played to a Million Points + in a
Public Venue at Boomers in Dania Bch, Florida then he played at home.

3.If you Jace and your Team and with a $6000.00 dollar Analyze Machine could not find a
way Duplicate what Billy Mitchell Recorded and Many Others like Chris Glee with Many
Countless Variations have Tried to show how VHS Can be Manipulated to Like MAME but is
ARCADE Duplicated Exactly.

How Can you Not agree with all that Evidence?

Joel West and Carlos let ALL Twin Galaxy Members See it as well As all your findings Plus
the Completed Video Of Billy Mitchells Donkey Score of 1,062,800 so We Verify and See for
Ourselves.

04-03-2018, 04:42 PM
Prophecyrob

Quote:

Exhibit A - 001003
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1003/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Great analogy with the car wheel - unfortunately Billy’s team is asking you to check the
washer fluid and you are doing it. This Joel West weekend had better be thee last chance.
Please don’t start examining the cigarette lighter on this Pontiac Sunbird.

04-03-2018, 04:45 PM
JJT_Defender

Jace Hall Please Let ALL Twin Galaxy Members See all your findings Plus the Completed
Video Of Billy Mitchells Donkey Score of 1,062,800 so We can Verify and See for Ourselves.

2. Was their Audio in the Video Completed Game Play of DK like People Talking,
Announcements on the Loud Speaker, Kids Playing, Music that it was Played at Boomers

Or does the Billy Mitchell's Arcade DK Completed Game Play Video is in the Dark then
without Question he Played at Home in a Dark Room.

Therefore it would clearly be a a Lie that Billy Mitchell Played to a Million Points + in a
Public Venue at Boomers in Dania Bch, Florida then he played at home.

04-03-2018, 04:49 PM
Snowflake

@JJT_Defender the video is direct feed so no, there is nothing in the background, also there
is no sound. An arcade or mame would both not have the background since it is done with
direct feed and not a camera. If you're thinking about the video camera people talked about,
well good look finding that camera, i dont think it exists, just like the fake board swap video.

04-03-2018, 04:55 PM
FBX

Quote:
Exhibit A - 001004
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1004/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

No. We did not know this for certain.

At the time of the very first screen caps, the output of every single DK arcade rev board was
not tested. The PCB oputput rotation was not tested. Etc.

No. We did not know this for certain. It was assumed.

This is fine for you. This is fine for the spectating crowd. This is not fine for TG. TG can't
make leaps like that. It has to investigate it with a reasonable amount of comprehensive work.

I hope you can see the difference and importance. If not, that's ok, it just means I am unable to
explain it well.

I get it, and I understood why you wanted to go the extra step, but you have to also understand
that we were lead to believe this process would be finished by now. So you can imagine how
frustrating it is to see the other side stringing this along another week with yet more empty
promises and insinuations which you already know to be a load of BS (i.e. the tapes are not
Billy's gameplay).

At some point you have to just tell them enough is enough. People are asking you right now:
What happens after this next week when it's more of the same debunked goose chases? Do
they they get another week? Month? Year?

04-03-2018, 05:31 PM
datagod

QUOTE: "There is no emergency when it comes to this or any score. No one is going to die if
a decision is not made right this second. No babies will be harmed in the absence of a
decision right this second. "

For babies being harmed, please refer to the numerous Rudy disputes that have been recently
closed, with scores being removed.

04-03-2018, 05:33 PM
WCopeland

TG should take as long as they need to come to a decision.

At the end of the day, the scores in question have already been removed from DKF. I think we
all know what the conclusion of this dispute will be. I was convinced TG was protecting
Todd, but my opinion has definitely evolved over time. Assuming Billy is guilty, the longer
this dispute drags on and the more ridiculous the explanations and distractions get, the worse
and worse it makes Team Billy look. At this point, I have no problem with that.

The greatest shame here is not the suspected cheating. It's that Steve and Hank had to compete
against this nonsense.

04-03-2018, 06:01 PM
Asterra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

People say that Billy is a gigantic cheater, but how do they know this as definitive fact?
Exhibit A - 001005
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1005/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

The frustrations being expressed in this thread are really no mystery.

People see the two types of barrel transition -- MAME finger triple girder, arcade five girder -
- and learn that Billy's videos exhibit 100% MAME and also 0% arcade behavior, across
literal dozens of instances per video. Essentially, there is a certain threshold of intuition and
general knowledge of what is and isn't possible. Above that threshold: People are able to
recognize that no possible capturing intricacy could possibly transform arcade graphics to
MAME graphics in a single instance, let alone every instance. The case is closed, instantly.
Below that threshold: At worst, people are undecided, or, if they are personally biased, they
may hope for some quirk to manifest a vindication, such as Carlos with his various fumblings.

Most people fit into the former category. Very few people who care at all about this dispute
are so lacking in intuition that the evidence of the girder finger alone isn't enough for an
instant judgment.

You may as well be asking how people can be sure about the color of the sky.

04-03-2018, 06:08 PM
bensweeneyonbass

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagod

For babies being harmed, please refer to the numerous Rudy disputes that have been recently
closed, with scores being removed.

This man saying this is a child and a troll and has nothing to offer to this conversation. Please
sir do us all a favor and grind your axes in private. It’s sad you don’t realize how
embarrassing your behavior is. I’m genuinely feeling sorry for you right now.

On the actual topic at hand - I do want to echo Wes’ sentiment - let this thing ride out and let
Billy’s team do whatever they think they can to defend. A rushed decision to appease the
frothing masses is not the way to handle this dispute with integrity. Letting it ride is NOT
damaging TG credibility or integrity. Anyone who says so is misunderstanding the greater
implications of this dispute and the dispute system itself.

And when I say “rushed” decision I know everyone’s already said it’s been months or
whatever. Rushed means finished under pressure. That’s the last thing we want with this
dispute.

04-03-2018, 06:12 PM
bensweeneyonbass

Does anyone ask a judge in a court of law to go ahead and deliver a verdict and sentence
when litigation is still in process? Before the jury adjourns to deliberate? I think it’s great that
so many people see the evidence as it is, because it’s damning in my eyes too, but shouldn’t
we all be assured that this evidence will prevail?

If TG chooses to accept the dispute and remove the score(s) of Billy, who cares how long it
takes?
Exhibit A - 001006
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1006/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

04-03-2018, 06:19 PM
maxim_recoil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

A competent mechanic will check relevant parts of the car. He won't waste time checking
irrelevant parts of the car, such as the carburetor, muffler, water pump, gas tank, windshield
wiper motor, etc. He doesn't ignore the irrelevant parts because he's making assumptions, he's
doing it because he understand the system and knows that those things can't be the cause of a
wobbly wheel. Likewise, people who understand how the Two-Bits converter works know
that it can't create MAME transitions. If it did, it would make me believe in literal miracles.
Imagine a device that, without having been designed to do so, just so happens to redesign
certain frames to be an exact match to how old versions of MAME render those frames, but
doesn't redesign any other frames or otherwise do anything else out of the ordinary.

Before you ever tested the Two-Bits converter, I and others pointed out that it can't produce
MAME transitions. We were right, and it wasn't because of a lucky assumption. The converter
simply derives composited chroma and luma values from the RGB values and sends the sync
through untouched. It doesn't even have a frame buffer. It has no mechanism which would
allow it to produce transition frames which are structured any differently than what it was fed,
and even if it did somehow glitch and alter the structure, what are the chances of it matching
up perfectly with something as oddly specific and arbitrary as old MAME transitions? I'd
guess about one in forty-eleven thousand kajillion to the umpteenth power.

04-03-2018, 06:30 PM
Emig5m
In the universe of unlimited possibilities one must consider all possibilities?

In the universe of unlimited possibilities one must consider all possibilities? "What-if" the
person in question was framed at the time of playing for future defamation? Example: He was
playing on MAME at the time but didn't even know it? The cab looked like it was running a
arcade PCB but really had a laptop stashed up behind the marquee running MAME plugged
into the monitor that someone rigged prior to him playing? Hey, it is the universe of unlimited
possibilities....lol.

2nd theory: The Mandela Effect! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKE2oyUXTb8 Maybe

the Mandela effect swapped the way MAME and the Arcade PCB draw the level at some
point in time, lol. :D

;)

04-03-2018, 06:38 PM
MrSteveFrench
Felt compelled to join and verify simply to post
Exhibit A - 001007
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1007/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

This is as neutral as an opinion as you'll get at this point.

I saw a few YouTube videos on this dispute and decided it would be worth the read. This was
weeks ago now and I've F5'd this thread daily since.

This is page 260 or possibly 261 by the time I hit post.

I feel compelled to say a few things. It was no small investment of time simply to gain the full
context by which to understand the situation.

I abide by the rules of lurk moar and eternal september when it comes joining niche
communities to comment in an en vouge thread- I don't.

That said, again, thousands of posts and 10+ hours of video at minimum at this point.

Despite not being active on TG prior to this I feel that at this point my perspective may have
some worth. For the sake of bevity I will stick to a list.

1. The work done by the community & TG during this dispute has been professional in every
way and beyond reproach.

2. I am a programmer by trade & as per YesAffinity's request of people to look into the mame
side of things more would be happy to do anything requested as time permits. I have a ~2002
P4 desktop with both native s-video out along with a AGP card & its outs. I would be happy
to export gameplay from all possible versions of mame to vhs => upload to confirm this setup
produces gameplay that matches Billy's submitted videos- footage that TG, an independent
party, and team Billy have all failed to mirror using the setup claimed to produce the
recordings in question.

3. Despite some criticism in the larger gaming press, after actually reading this thread I have
gained a ton of respect for TG, it's actual community, and especially the way in which Jace is
handling this dispute. His dispassionate evidence based approach to these matters is
admirable, at this point the conclusion is obvious. Which leads to...

4. He used mame. It's because he used mame. I loved KoK. Now knowing how distorted that
was it's more exaggerated but even then it seem like Steve was getting screwed.

Again, as an outsider, after seeing the scrutiny Weibe was subjected to I more or less assumed
as a viewer such due diligence had previously been extended to Billy's setup as well.

Seeing his "tech" claim a setup that can't even record in color when tested makes me sick.
Steve was subjected to so so so much bad faith verification yet apparently this was not in the
least recripocated.

To those in charge at the time, including a dead man who's supposed presence at Boomers
Billy's ever changing story depends upon, shame, fess up, it's long past time. How you live
with yourselves is beyond me. Stop lying. Just stop. Look at the evidence.

To those who have said in this thread they quit TG in the past because of such obvious
unfairness. Respect.

5. Camp Billy has yet to present a single technically sound argument during this dispute,
furthermore they have dug their hole ever deeper by demonstrating bizzare and fundamental
ignorance about very basic matters when it comes to capturing gameplay.
Exhibit A - 001008
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1008/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

As such Jace's/TG's choice to give Billy's camp the extra time they're now asking for makes
perfect sense and will help conclusively resolve this.

Code and hardware don't lie. People do. There isn't going to be a miracle. He's letting them
hang themselves. TG & a 3rd party both exhausted every reasonable option to reproduce the
results submitted by Billy. They proved he played on mame.

Letting his camp fumble to present yet another technically unsound argument when pressed
only serves to further verify that point.

Credit to all who furthered this dispute with verifiable evidence, Xenia and the current top
level DK players especially.

All that's left is a doomed from the start hail mary before Jace and TG announce the logical
conclusion.

He used mame.

04-03-2018, 06:38 PM
bensweeneyonbass

Hey everyone I get it. It’s pretty much a closed case. But we don’t have the gavel. If the
defendant has requested more time to present more evidence, and the judge grants it out of the
pure goodness and understanding of his/her own heart, why are we pissed at the judge?
Morally, if there’s a possibility that REAL evidence may emerge, I’d want to watch the show
too. I say “watch the show” because I’m biased. I believe BM knew damn well what he was
doing and that it was cheating. But heck why not see what they have to say?

Grab your popcorn everyone. Until the defense says “I rest my case” we are not likely to see a
verdict.

04-03-2018, 06:39 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCopeland

. Assuming Billy is guilty, the longer this dispute drags on and the more ridiculous the
explanations and distractions get, the worse and worse it makes Team Billy look. At this
point, I have no problem with that.

So in other words, you're saying you have no problem with the dispute continuing indefinitely
to allow team Billy to keep shifting gears and excuses ad infinitum. Some of us would rather
the scores be, you know, actually removed from the database for cheating.

Let me ask you this just as I asked Jace: When is enough actually enough and you just say:
"Alright remove the scores"?

04-03-2018, 06:44 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass

Exhibit A - 001009
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1009/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Grab your popcorn everyone. Until the defense says “I rest my case” we are not likely to see a
verdict.

1. Jace gave us a time frame as to when a decision would be reached. When that time frame
came due, suddenly Joel decides they have a whole new case to gather and present. That's a
stall tactic because they waited until the last minute to cook something new up.

2. Because they will just keep going, and going... and going. There will be no end to it.

04-03-2018, 06:46 PM
bensweeneyonbass

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBX

2. Because they will just keep going, and going... and going. There will be no end to it.

It’s totally a stall tactic. No doubt. They had to wait til the last minute because that’s when the
Hail Marys start flying.

I’m saying they’ll run out of Hail Marys. I’m saying they’re just incriminating themselves
further. Let ‘em dig the grave deeper.

04-03-2018, 06:56 PM
Aiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

People say that Billy is a gigantic cheater, but how do they know this as definitive fact? You
say that it is "clearly cheating" so how do you know that as definitive fact?

Well first off I am new here and really have been creeping around since the entire Dragster
dispute became mainstream. Also note, aside from KOK I knew very little about DK or Billy
M. before I started to read the thread.

With that said, Jace your information and posts have been very good and TG doesn’t appear
to be the unprofessional company I thought they were (minus the original Apollo article).
Your assertion that you need a “definitive fact” and that onus is on TG or the community is
flawed though. The burden should lay with the party that would like to have their score
recorded. Billy is not (from what I can see) coming forward to state how he recorded the
score and why the anomalies are present in the footage. To me, I believe that the system
should be that Person A submits score, TG accepts after review, if Person B challenges with
Exhibit A - 001010
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1010/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

evidence that is deemed credible, Person A concisely responds or the score is removed. If
Person A has had multiple challenges that were not answered timely or still deemed as
fraudulent then they should be banned for life.

In this case the evidence is clear. The verdict should be handed down and if in 4 years (or
when ever he likes) Billy wishes to provide evidence as to how this happened then you can
look to reverse the removal at that time. Also based on his lack of honestly he has shown in
this investigation, his punishment should be very severe. This would send a clear message to
people, you submit legit scores or we will punish you. If you waste significant resources by
not coming clean when questioned and keep being dishonest your punishment will be 10x
worse.

Again I started this without a side as I knew nothing about Billy or his past other than KOK
that I watch when it came out. As a person who deals with investigatons fairly often, the proof
is there and any delay in handing out the verdict does just seem like TG click bait.

04-03-2018, 07:01 PM
FBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass

Let ‘em dig the grave deeper.

Except the grave will go all the way to China. Meaning you have to cut the nonsense off at
some point. Wouldn't you agree?

04-03-2018, 07:04 PM
elegy

If this dispute is taking longer than others, or seems to suggest any sort of "special treatment",
that's only because of the nature of the cult of personality surrounding Billy. It's specifically
because of this that any potential rebuttal they have ought to be heard.

If TG say, "no, we won't give you a week to present additional evidence; we've seen all we
need to see to make a decision", then that gives Billy's camp ammo to say things like, "here's
the evidence for Billy that TG don't want you to see!", and call a ruling into question, even if
only in the minds of Billy's remaining supporters. If you're like me, and believe the guilty
verdict is inevitable, then remember that it's far easier for more time to strengthen the
evidence against Billy than it is for him to manage to prop his case up on fabricated findings.

It'll be far better to see a verdict issued when there exist no other potential fallbacks for Billy
and his crew. A proper verdict needs to be strong enough to not only satisfy those who
already agree with its findings, but to change the minds of those who did not, and, in cases
where groupthink prevents members from changing their minds, enough to close down any
arguments without allowing the possibility of any "whatabout"s.

Put another way, it'll be much more satisfying to see a Billy who's run out of excuses and is
unable to defend himself than the Billy that we currently have.

This will take as long as it needs to, and TG have shown a very measured and thorough
approach thus far. If you absolutely must be incensed over something, then sit back and hope
for a "Not Guilty", I guess; I'll be here with popcorn, waiting patiently for the next installment
of Billy's Fairy Tales.
Exhibit A - 001011
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 1011/1012
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

04-03-2018, 07:12 PM
Aiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass

If TG chooses to accept the dispute and remove the score(s) of Billy, who cares how long it
takes?

In court you present your findings, rebuttal as required and rest when you feel the case has
been sufficiently made. The community appears to be saying we rest our case. At no point can
you ask the judge for a week during the trial for another week of discovery. Billy is not
entitled to additional discovery time because they could rebut an argument in a reasonable
timeframe. Also with affidavits being the main source of new “evidence”, this is not even
close to being enough to outweigh the evidence against not matter what they could say. Eye

Exhibit A - 001012
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_… 1012/1012
EXHIBIT B
Exhibit B - 000001
Exhibit B - 000002
Exhibit B - 000003
Exhibit B - 000004
PROOF OF SERVICE
1 Case No. 19STCV12592
2
I am a resident of the State of California, over the age of eighteen years, and not a party
3 to the within action. My business address is T ASHROUDI AN L AW G ROUP , APC, located
5900 Canoga Ave, Suite 250, Woodland Hills, CA 91367-5017. On March 30, 2020, I served
4 the herein described document(s):
5 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL ISO SPECIAL MOTION TO STRIKE OF
DEFENDANT TWIN GALAXIES, LLC [CCP § 425.16]
6
7 by transmitting via facsimile the document(s) listed above to the fax number(s)
set forth below on this date before 5:00 p.m.
8
9 by placing the document(s) listed above in a sealed envelope with postage
thereon fully prepaid, in the United States mail at Woodland Hills, California
10 addressed as set forth below.

11 X E-File - by electronically transmitting the document(s) listed above to

[email protected] pursuant to an agreement of the parties.
12
by personally delivering the document(s) listed above to the person(s) at the
13 address(es) set forth below.
14
by overnight courier of the document(s) listed above to the person(s) at the
15 address(es) set forth below.

16 James E. Gibbons (State Bar No. 130631) Attorneys for Plaintiff

[email protected] WILLIAM JAMES MITCHELL
17 MANNING & KASS
ELLROD, RAMIREZ, TRESTER LLP
18 801 S. Figueroa St, 15th Floor
Los Angeles, California 90017-3012
19 Telephone: (213) 624-6900
Facsimile: (213) 624-6999
20
21 I am readily familiar with the firm’s practice of collection and processing correspondence
for mailing. Under that practice it would be deposited with the U.S. Postal Service on that same
22 day with postage thereon fully prepaid in the ordinary course of business. I am aware that on
motion of the party served, service is presumed invalid if postal cancellation date or postage
23 meter date is more than one day after date of deposit for mailing in affidavit.
24
I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of California that the above
25 is true and correct. Executed on March 30, 2020 at Woodland Hills, California.

26
27 _______________________________
Mona Tashroudian
28
14 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL

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