Volume 03 September 2008

NAVARATRI
H.H. SrI SWAMI SIVANANDA
EVERYTHING IS TRUE
HOOMAN MAJD
ROBERT BEER
INTERVIEWED BY
ROBERT SVOBODA
DURGA PUJA
DOUBLE TAKE
DINESH KHANNA
AN INTERVIEW WITH

ROBERT BEER
January 9, 2008, Oxford, United Kingdom

DR. ROBERT E. SVOBODA

Dr. Robert E. Svoboda with Robert Beer.

R obert Beer has studied Tibetan

thangka painting for more than
thirty years. One of the first Westerners
her death. Two days after she died, I had
a dream in which my sister and I were
flying through the sky together, and
become a Buddhist monk, because that
seemed the brightest option.
But in Istanbul I was turned onto
to become actively involved in this art she was no longer deformed; she was LSD, and LSD became the center of
form, he initially studied for a period of actually perfect in form; it was so real. my life for the next three years or so.
five years in India and Nepal with several As we were flying together through a It was during this period that I really
of the finest Tibetan artists living at the very beautiful clear sky I heard a church started painting, after I had returned to
time. Since 1975, he has lived in England, bell ringing, and then I woke up to our the UK. Then I became very involved
working consistently on developing doorbell ringing; it was my mother and with Hindu and Buddhist imagery
the artistic skills, vision, patience, and father just coming back from church. and symbolism, Indian music (sitar),
understanding of this highly complex When my sister died, her face had an and Gnostic Christianity. The mid and
subject as well as the historical and cultural agonized expression, but when I actually late ’60s were a very creative period in
contexts within which it arises. He is the went into the front room to look at her my life, as they were for many others,
author and illustrator of The Encyclopedia in her coffin that morning, she had the when the transmission of the language
of Tibetan Symbols and Motifs and The same expression that she had had in the of symbolism became very potent and
Handbook of Tibetan Buddhist Symbols. dream. Her face was smiling and very meaningful for me.
His work has appeared in numerous beautiful, so I realized that something But when I was twenty-two I flipped
publications around the world. actually survives death. From then on out on acid, and that’s when I left for
Robert Svoboda was introduced to I essentially became somewhat obsessed India and really became deeply involved
Robert Beer’s work in the mid-eighties, with death, and trying to understand with Tibetan art and Indian music,
when Robert Beer provided the artwork what life is all about. because I was quite honestly no longer
for the cover of Svoboda’s book Aghora. I spent a couple of years living able to function on any other level. The
Shortly thereafter, they met in the homeless and on the road after this, vehicle of Tibetan art and its imagery
isolated Scottish village where Robert because I didn’t really have a home became a way for me to identify strongly
Beer and his family were then living and anymore. This was the period of the with my own internal process. It was an
have since remained in regular contact. beatnik generation in Britain, but there aboriginal or primeval instinct, rather
were few of them on the road then. I than an intellectual impetus, that
Robert Svoboda: If you could start began to meet people involved with actually propelled me into this world.
off just by speaking a little about your Buddhism, people who were older Its reality resonated very deeply, and
background and what brought you to than me who were looking into Eastern in time I began to find a valid sense
where you are. religions. From the time I was sixteen of understanding through the drawing
Robert Beer: What brought me to years old I strongly gravitated toward and painting of Buddhist deities. The
where I am? Going back right to the Hinduism and Buddhism. In 1965 I imagery resonated with what was taking
beginning? set out for the East with the romantic place inside of my psyche; some kind
RS: Far enough back as seems useful. notion of becoming a Buddhist monk. I of transmission was taking place. That’s
RB: Basically the strongest event of was eighteen years old at that time. basically how I started on this path.
my childhood was the death of my
sister, who died when I was fourteen. RS: Did you finish school? RS: So there you were in India, at
She died of hydrocephalus when she RB: No, I left school at sixteen. I was twenty-two.
was three years old; her head grew to basically not in school much from age RB: Yes. I spent five years in India, the
an enormous size and was filled with fifteen onwards, and I was living in friends’ winters in Varanasi studying Indian
cerebrospinal fluid. She was kind of the houses because I didn’t have a home. From music, and the summers in the Kangra
center of the family, and because of this age sixteen to eighteen, I was more or less and Kulu Valleys studying Tibetan
our whole family broke up soon after on the road until I set out for the East to art. I also spent a year in Kathmandu,

September 2008 3
Manjuśrī, an oil painting by Samundra Man Singh Shrestha. 2003

4 Volume 03 Article 02
where I studied Indian music with taken place between the seventh and produce something that carries real
a lovely blind sarod player named twelfth centuries, and the main route peace, tranquility, beauty, grace–to me
Mohan Sundar Shrestha. I also became of this transmission passed through the that’s art, that’s really art. For me art is
involved with Newar art in Kathmandu. Kathmandu Valley. The Kingdom of uplifting, art is spiritual.
Although my main discipline was Indo- Nepal thus became the main staging
Tibetan Buddhist art, I have always post for the transmission of Buddhism RS: Is there any part of modern art that
been fascinated with Newar art (the between Eastern India and Tibet. you find uplifting or artistic?
indigenous Hindu-Buddhist art of the A vibrant renaissance in Buddhist art RB: Artistic? Oh yeah, I think it’s
Kathmandu Valley). It was during this had developed during the late dynasty artistic. I wouldn’t necessarily say that
time, 1973-74, that I met the Newar of the Pala Kings of Eastern India, it is uplifting though. I think modern
artist Siddhimuni Shakya (1933-2001) who patronized many of the Buddhist or conceptual art is extremely overrated.
who was my greatest inspiration. The monasteries and Hindu Temples of As an artist myself I’ve only met a small
work that he was producing at that time Bengal and Bihar. With the demise of number of people who I believe can
was unbelievable and exquisite; it was the Pala Dynasty, Nepal became the really see paintings; almost everybody
quite revolutionary for me. direct inheritor of this ancient and can read books, but very few people can
highly evolved artistic tradition. And see—can actually absorb essence with
RS: It’s probably fair to say few the Newars, who were the indigenous their own eyes and interpret. Really, it’s
Westerners have heard of Newar art, inhabitants of the Kathmandu Valley, a handful of people I’ve met in my life,
even among those who have heard of essentially became the Buddhist artists a very small number. When you have
Tibetan Buddhist art... and artisans who actually instigated a very fine Newar or Tibetan painting,
RB: Yes, Tibetan Buddhist art has become much of what we now recognize as Early people will often say, “I could look at
very popular. When I came back to the Tibetan Buddhist Art. The influence of this for hours.” But after maybe two
West in 1976 not many people had heard the Newars, particularly on early Central or three minutes their attention lapses.
of Tibetan Buddhist art. But the Tibetans Tibetan art, was simply enormous, These big exhibitions that take place now
are very good travelers through time and with the three great cities of the Nepal in the West, of the famous artists of the
space. They came to the West and have Valley, Bhaktapur (Bhadgaon), Patan last century; people go there and they
now established many monasteries and (Lalitpur) and Kathmandu (Kantipur), try to see, but I think most people don’t
centers. They are very good at being a race respectively being known for their really see that much. They try to educate
in exile; as nomads and traders they have technical skills in woodcarving, bronze themselves in a way of seeing perhaps,
been able to take care of themselves. While casting and painting. but it is usually more of a cultural event,
Tibetan Buddhism has been taking firm Many Newar artisans and merchants something that they believe they should
root in the West, Newar art has remained maintained a presence in Central Tibet see. At most gallery openings people
somewhat neglected in Nepal. Like Tibet, until the Chinese invasion of the ’50s, tend to pay more attention to the wine
Nepal was also a closed country for many even though Buddhism in Nepal had and the snacks than the paintings. For
years, until the early ’50s in fact. A friend declined greatly since the three cities me art comes from the inside, from
of mine was there in 1965, when it first of the Valley had been conquered by within, if that makes sense; but I think
started to open to foreign tourists; and the Gorkhas in the late eighteenth this may sound somewhat arrogant.
the British consul in Kathmandu invited century, when the country became
every Westerner in the city to Christmas predominantly a Hindu nation. RS: When you look at a piece of art
dinner in the embassy. what do you see?
RS: How would you define art? RB: I actually see it. I see what’s really
RS: When did Newar art originate? RB: Art is outside and heart is inside. there; certainly in terms of the art I’m
RB: Buddhism originated in India. RS: Very good. familiar with. But I wouldn’t say this
The Buddha lived in the heartland of RB: Art is the outward expression of the about abstract art, because like most
Magadha (now Bihar), and from here his inner heart. To me art should convey people, I can’t often see its point. I don’t
teachings spread eastward into Bengal, beauty and devotion, and skill and think you can see something in it until
westward into Gandhara, southward to time, and all of the things that are fine; somebody explains what you’re supposed
Sri Lanka, and northward into Central art should be spiritually uplifting. The to see, which may be conceptual or
Asia. But the final flowering of Indian Western trend is often for art to portray conjectural.
Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism neurosis. In the West art is often a You remember Richard Buhler?
remained vital in Bengal and Bihar until product of neurosis; the artist somehow When I visited him in Las Vegas a
its great monastic academies were finally has to be tormented or demented. It’s couple of years ago he showed me a
destroyed by Muslim invaders at the end all become too conceptual–conceptual Tibetan painting he had bought, and
of the twelfth century. art–just thoughts that flash in the he wanted me to tell him what it was
The great transmission of these mind. Thoughts and ideas are so easy about. So I explained it to him and he
teachings from India into Tibet had to come by. But to portray beauty, to said, “My god, it’s like you are reading

September 2008 5
Black and white photograph of Siddhimuni Shakya’s last painting of Padmāpāņī Lokeśvara. 1998

6 Volume 03 Article 02
hieroglyphics! You read it as though you a specific deity offering, they don’t really and talent, because it is a very, very
are reading some strange language.” understand what that offering should beautiful legacy.
And I said, “Yes, that’s what its like. My contain, because they don’t hold that Tibetan Buddhist art is meditative;
kind of visual awareness is basically like tradition anymore. So there are facets of people want thangkas because they are
I have learned an ancient language.” their art that are sometimes inaccurate doing a meditational practice of Tara or
I’ve learned a language of line and I’ve or weak, like a right-hand attribute the Medicine Buddha, or some similar
learned a language of symbols, but these erroneously appearing in the left hand of deity. I would define Newar art as
are very specific. I have a very good a deity; or a deity sitting on a golden sun devotional, not meditative; it kindles a
understanding of Tibetan art, and if I disc, when he or she should appear upon strong devotional feeling, which is why
look at a thangka I can usually explain a white moon disc. They can usually I say heart is inside and art is outside. It
or understand everything in it. I may not replicate perfectly, and innovate to an resonates very strongly with the human
be able to identify historical characters, astonishing degree, but a sophisticated ideal of the divine, of something that’s
but as regards most of the deities, I understanding of iconography is rare much more potent in its initial impact
understand what they are holding, why amongst the artistic community. than it is in any symbolic meaning or
they are holding them, why they are To me these artists are very beautiful esoteric sense.
this, why they are that, it’s all pretty people, and I love them dearly. They are
clear on this level. usually very humble and intelligent; but RS: The modern world is not a
But Newar art is somewhat different not highly educated, not highly trained; particularly devotional place. Do you
from Tibetan art; it’s a different a lot of their tradition knowledge has think that it is more difficult today than
tradition—so now I’m exploring Newar been lost over the last few centuries. it might have been earlier for people
art. But unlike Tibetan art, there are Most of the artists are quite young, who are involved in Newar art, which
very few people left who are able to and it is easy for me to identify with is, as you put it, more devotional than
understand and convey the actual them. As an artist myself I had a very meditative, to tap into a devotional
meanings within Newar art. So I’m tough life financially, but I chose to do reality?
kind of trying to decode Newar art at what I wanted to do, what I felt I was RB: It’s still possible; I find this ability
the present time, trying to understand destined to do. And it is easy for me to in most of the good young artists, the
it, and to help the artist in Nepal to recognize my younger self in many of ones in their twenties and thirties. You
understand what they are painting, and these artists, to inspire them with an know, forty years old is quite old for a
to make the art known. This too sounds ability to really ‘see’ and appreciate their painter; after forty, your eyes begin to
a bit arrogant, but really it is like this. work, and sometimes to dazzle them go. When you get to forty years old you
with an iconographical description of are considered to be a senior Newar
RS: Have you found that at least some every aspect of a deity that they have artist, and there is a great respect from
people are becoming able to understand just painted. the younger artists toward those whom
it? More than anything I can recognize they consider their seniors, the ones who
RB: Yes, in Nepal, are we talking about what their skills and talents are, and blazed the trail. We don’t seem to have
Newar art? how, given the opportunity to paint this in the West, where it’s much more
RS: Yes. what they really want to paint, they can competitive. There’s often a little jealousy
RB: The Newars themselves, they create really incredible masterpieces. among these young Newar artists, but
have this unique skill of being able to This they would love to do, but they you don’t have the kind of gross, “This is
reproduce most anything. You walk have been held in bondage by the me, I’m a great artist attitude” that you
around Kathmandu City and many need to produce works for the market, often find in the West. There is instead a
restaurants are now making hummus, especially to reproduce deity images that strong humility.
salads and pizzas. They’ve learned how have become very popular. So in the past Newar society is quite difficult to
to prepare and cook such things. And they have often kept making versions penetrate; it has its own language
when they play rock music, they’ve of popular images, but this stifles the (Newari), castes, annual festivals and
learned all the riffs from Eric Clapton, or artists’ creative talents. Given the chance complex rituals. And as the artists have
Pink Floyd, or whoever. They have this to paint what they would like to paint, come to know me over the past ten years
perfect ability to replicate things. Newar and paying them adequately for their or so, I’ve on occasion been in a situation
artists likewise have this innate ability in work, so that instead of spending three with a couple of them where they have
casting bronzes, in woodcarving, mask weeks on a painting they could spend made a painting that they ask me to
making, in painting, to basically get it four months, their work will reach a appraise, and I talk about the quality of
right. It’s an innate thing they grow up much higher standard. This also gives the art, and then I start to talk about the
with in their culture; it’s in their unique them a greater sense of meaning and symbolism, and they can’t believe how
genetic codes. They basically get it right. inspiration—of hope really. So that’s I know all of those things. Then they’ll
But artistically there are some things what I’m involved with at the moment: find a reproduction in a book, and I’ll
they don’t get right; like when there is trying to nourish that creative energy explain everything in the painting, and

September 2008 7
they can’t believe that anybody carries this RS: From what you’ve seen does any of from copies, you know; they copy copies.
knowledge anymore. So on that level they the art they carry in the shops have any These young Tamang boys are making
have begun to respect me, not just for artistic merit to it? copies of photographs, photocopies, or
what I know but also for who I am. I self- RB: There are often some good artists’ sketches made by other artists. They
identify with them because I know how paintings in the shops of Thamel; the keep copying and then they begin to
hard it was for me at that time in my own skill of the Tamang artists who copy lose details. What is held in one hand
life, and how little help I actually had, most of the Tibetan thangkas is often of a deity–maybe it is a vajra, or a club–
and how little I still actually have. The very good. Unfortunately, virtually all suddenly becomes a trident, and then
painters of Newar paubhas and Tibetan of the shopkeepers in Kathmandu have next time it is copied as a trident, and
thangkas have traditionally always been very little knowledge whatsoever about it goes on like this. It is a bit like coins
anonymous, and rarely ever accorded the Buddhist or Newar art, even though that were made in the Roman Empire:
respect of a scholar, lama or pandit. I can some of them have been in the business the farther away from Rome they were
identify with them because they also have for thirty years. When I was there minted, the more abstract the image of
had so little help, but times are changing recently I went to visit a shopkeeper I the emperor became on the coin.
and the artists of Nepal now commonly know who has been selling Buddhist There is no real source of knowledge,
sign their own works. So I’m there to help art for the last thirty years and is now as such. Even among the young Tibetan
them on these levels. I think the best thing selling pashmina shawls–and it’s no lamas who go to buy thangkas there,
I can do in the latter part of my life is to different for him, he said–shawls are they often really don’t understand the
help nourish these artists, both in terms better business. So none of the art had iconography themselves. And amongst
of patronage, of giving them the freedom any real meaning for him although he their students there are probably very
to create what they want to create, and is a very sweet man; it’s an industry, few who really understand the art
of helping them understand their own essentially. And customers go to the well. It’s such a complicated subject:
art form better and learn more about shops and they obviously think that the iconography, the imagery, it’s just
their own Newar tradition themselves. the shopkeepers know something about too much for people to learn or even
And they facilitate that now, so if I’m what they sell, but they don’t. And you attempt to learn–unless you’re a painter
with some of the more knowledgeable should know that most of the Buddhist yourself. Then there’s a real need to learn
artists—and there are only a few that I art in commercial shops in Kathmandu these things.
consider really knowledgeable—then an is never actually painted by ‘Buddhist
incredible transmission of information monks,’ so there are often many mistakes This is a complex discussion of
takes place between us. And that’s real in these Buddhist paintings, particularly course.
transmission for me, that’s real guru- with the more complex wrathful deities RS: Of course.
disciple transmission, whoever is the guru and their mandalas.
in that relationship. Sometimes it’s me, Robert Beer is the author and illustrator
sometimes it’s somebody else, but it does RS: Given how many mistakes are being of The Encyclopedia of Tibetan Symbols
takes place and I bow to its beauty. There made now in this industry, do you think and Motifs. He has studied Tibetan
is a life force behind everything; and this there will always be a separation between thangka painting for more than thirty
world is very alive and dynamic from my the more commercial art and the actual years. One of the first Westerners to
perspective. art that maintains the symbolism and become actively involved in this art
RS: Yes, it does sound like this sort of the accuracy of the symbols? form, he initially studied for a period of
art is alive, and that the tradition behind RB: Yes. I think it’s very hard to influence five years in India and Nepal with several
it is alive. The art itself comes alive in the Tamang artists. There are various of the finest Tibetan artists living at the
the artist, then it manifests externally things I’ve said to no avail to some of time. He resides in Oxford, England.
and has the potential to live outside. the people who own these shops. One of
RB: And this is reflected in the thangka the biggest sellers of art in Kathmandu Dr. Robert E. Svoboda While in
shops in Kathmandu, which now have has several hundred Tamang artists India, received a degree in Äyurvedic
Newar art in them, whereas four or five working for him. But just by telling the medicine and was tutored by the Aghori
years ago you wouldn’t see Newar art shop owner “You should change this,” Vimalánanda in Äyurveda, Yoga, Jyotiü,
there, only Tibetan art. Now you see or “Make Amitabha a much darker Tantra, and other forms of classical
Newar art everywhere, including many red,” it will never happen, because that Indian lore.
copies of paintings that I have bought advice will never penetrate from him to
the originals of. It’s becoming much the working artist. So I can’t influence
more popular. things on that level. They work mainly

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