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Dec 16, 2017

jeff_roback
37 Messages • 854 Points
Answered Important
Announcement

Beamflex causing roaming

RUCKUS Community RE…

Announcement 1 1

problems with warehouse RUCKUS Self-Help Prog…

devices Announcement 0 6

We’re having a really tough time getting 25 R610’s working in a warehouse

environment with Vocollect (Honeywell) T5 devices that are used by the
warehouse personnel. After a lot of investigation, review of logs, and packet Related Conversations
captures it appears that the issue is around the T5 devices misreading the signal
R750 high number of % …
strength of the AP’s and staying on ap’s with poor coverage. The T5 devices are V
deigned to be used by operators that are driving forklifts around a warehouse so Question 1 0
they are extremely sensitive to changes in the RF environment, always looking for
a better ap. Clients roaming at very …
Unfortunately they are using the AP beacons to read signal strength, so even if
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they are connected to an AP with great coverage, when they see a beacon from
that ap with a weak signal, so when they see a beacon from an AP that physically
ZD1200 system upgrad…
does have good coverage but shows as having a weak signal, they assume the
operator has moved from that AP and they imediately scan and jump to another Question 2 0
ap. This process seems to repeat over and over again, resulting in a terrible
experience for the client devices. These T5 devices do use older 802.11 b/g Accepted Solution
radios, and the newer devices like ipads, iphones, androids and laptops work K vSZ-D Interfaces
great. Unfortunately the T5 devices are mission critical so I need a way to get
Question 1 0
them working reliably. Before Ruckus was in place, the warehouse was using
Ubiquity access points, which worked great for the t5’s, just not for anything reset R310's not accepti…
else...
So we’re kind of stuck now... overall it seems like both the Ruckus and the J
Question 0 0
T5 devices are trying to independently solve the same problem but they’re
conflicting with each other resulting in terrible device experience. We’ve tried just
about every configuration change possible including adjusting signal strength up
and down, changes to power management mode on the devices, forcing b,
forcing g, bss minrate, smartroam, changing roam thresholds on the device, Was this helpful?
etc.... but nothing seems to get the devices to believe the rucks signal is as
strong as it actually iis because the beacons show lower strength.
Does anyone No Yes
have any experience with client devices that are using beacons to identify signal
strength, and have any strategies to prevent them from getting confused by
beamflex? Vocollect/Honeywell has asked if we can turn off beamflex, but it
seems like that’s built in to the hardware and not changable. I have opened a
case with Ruckus tech support but haven’t been able to get past the “Just reboot
It” stage... I don’t think they understand we have a fundamental problem with the
interaction of the devices and beamflex.
Thanks for any thoughts....

Question • Updated 4 years ago 316 5 1 6

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Responses

4 years ago
andrew_somerville
12 Messages • 290 Points

Are you 100% sure it is Beamflex? The maximum possible Beamflex

gain on an R610 is only 6dB. I'm surprised that is sufficient to cause
dramatic roaming issues. In any case since I assume all the APs are
set to the same power level then the beacons from the 'correct' AP
should still be stronger than the beacons from all other APs so why
does the client device roam to a weaker signal AP?

0 0

4 years ago
michael_brado
Former Employee • 2.6K Messages • 44.8K Points

That's a very good question, why the T5 roams to a weaker signal

AP...?

Does the scanner manufacturer have an answer/patch to this

fundamental

problem?

My suggestion is to reduce the tx power on AP 2.4g radios.  Do not

reduce

bss-minrate on 2.4g, which would cause the AP to ignore a T5 that

was still

trying to connect/roam from too far away, but lowering the AP 2.4g
power

would prevent the T5s from seeing them from too far away.

Beamflex is an advantage, sending client power only in the direction of

each

client, and thus less interference to other clients on the same AP.

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4 years ago
tom_pisacic
6 Messages • 110 Points

Hello,

we have similar problem as mentioned above. we have a warehouse

with metal high racking around 40ft high and Ruckus 7782 omni are
installed at the ceiling.  Racking is full of frozen food on pallets.We
have tried almost everything possible, from smart-roaming, min data
rate, load/band balancing, manual channels, manually set a tx power
but still are experiencing issues.

I've been using the Ekahau Site Survey with Side Kick and the signal
does not look that bad, SNR does not go lower then 20.. In most areas,
SNR is above 25. 

Clients are Citadel RF devices with rubber duck antenna 3dBi 2.4GHz
but thinking to switch over to dual band antennas. The app what our
operators use, is a web based app which does not refresh until been
clicked within the app.

What else can you suggest me to try? Do we have proper APs installed
in this kind of environment? Do we need to switch out our APs 7782
omni and go for newer type of AP with directional antennas? Is there
anything what I can do to improve with the current setup?

thanks!

8 0

michael_brado
Former Employee • 2.6K Messages • 44.8K Points

Hi Tom,

   

Warehouses can be challenging environements for mobile scanner

devices, up and down the racks, and forklift drivers with wi-fi, etc. 

You might benefit from adding an AP or two at different ends of

different aisles, to radiate down the rows in addition to the ceiling
mounted APs.

Like Reply 4 years ago 0

tom_pisacic
6 Messages • 110 Points

Hi Michael,

thanks for the fast response. U I have been looking before,
unfortunately there is no place to put APs anywhere but to the
ceiling.

How does 7782 omni works in this kind of environment? Does it

work fine in the way we do not need APs with directional
antennas?

Aisles are approx. 6-7ft wide and the metal racking is around 40ft
high.

Like Reply 4 years ago 0

michael_brado
Former Employee • 2.6K Messages • 44.8K Points

40 feet high is not close for your wifi clients.  I think you would
benefit if you could bring any APs down to, or install a couple new
APs, at floor level, at alternating opposite ends of your rows of
racks.  This is our typical approach for improved warehouse
coverage.  And yes, sectional antenna APs that focus energy just
down the aisles might provide somewhat better coverage, than an
indoor omni (ie 7982) alternative. [ You may find the EoL 7982s for
sale at very low prices, to add to APs over bringing any down from
your ceiling. ]

Like Reply 4 years ago 0

tom_pisacic
6 Messages • 110 Points
 What about the tx power on 7782 APs? I have been trying to find
some useful documentation which would help me to configure my
controller and APs specifically for this kind of environment but
could find anything. 

Before I had all channels and TX power set to Auto and was
experiencing more issues than now. Are there any options on the
controller which I should turn off/on, tweak them?

I was told that this type of APs are not just an omni antenna but
'smart" omni antenna, and there is no need for sector deployment
as these APs can focus their signal in the direction of the client.
(told by sells person). 

thanks for your reply!

Like Reply 4 years ago 0

michael_brado
Former Employee • 2.6K Messages • 44.8K Points

Leave TX power at Auto, which will be 100% of AP radio + antenna

gain.  We use BeamFlex to direct energy back to connected clients,
instead of radiating in all directions, which helps improve customer
signal strength and reduce co-channel interference.

You need to Site Survey your current environment to really see

what coverage you have, or where you might need more.

It is recommended to have some APs at ground level, at alternate

ends of different rows, to augment your ceiling AP coverage.

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4 years ago
jeff_roback
37 Messages • 854 Points

In our situation this was caused by some very unusual roaming

behavior in the client devices.  The devices we are using Vocollect
(Honeywell) T5 are very old devices and thus use an older 2.4 GHz
radio.   Based on my experience I think beamflex was definitely
causing problems for the devices. 

Because the handsets were designed for use while walking around a
warehouse, and they were created in 802.11b days, they have some
pretty sophisticated code going on for how they detect and roam
between access points. My best reverse engineering seemed to
indicate that they assume that a decrease in signal strength means
that someone is walking away from an AP and that they should roam
from it and not try that one again for a while.   And this seemed to
work very will with most of AP vendors that don't have much
intelligence going on at the AP.  But in a Ruckus environment where
the AP's have a lot of RF intelligence going on and beamflex was
constantly changing the signal strength for individual APs, the two
devices trying to figure each other out was creating havoc.   

I'm not a RF engineer, so this may be complete gibberish, but here's

what it looked like to me:  In watching the packet captures and debug
logs, the beacons seemed to be causing the wireless devices great
difficultly.   Since the beacons are sent out without any client specific
beamflexing, the RSSI levels for those would vary greatly from what
the client was already seeing.   So the intelligence in the device would
use RSSI levels in the beacons as a 'picture' of what the environment
looked like and then make very bad choices about when and where to
roam.   (The developers did confirm that the driver code utilizes RSSI
from beacons to learn about the environment.).   And that accounted
for why the devices would roam even when they had great signal
strength... because directed packets were coming in a different signal
levels than beacons.   

Of course the Ruckus gear was working great for the other devices in
the warehouse, so I didn't want to break the environment for everyone
else.

Also, I should mention the folks at Honeywell were incredibly helpful! 

They jumped right in with me and put their hardware and software
people on the problem which was great.

After spending a ton of time with them looking at packet captures and
debug logs, we did end up getting this working with the following
settings.

Device side:   

1. Set device for = 802.11b only (this was critical.  Even through
the devices supported 802.11g, that didn't work reliably). 
Setting OFDM only on the AP side didn't work reliably either. 
2. Adjust roam triggers to make the devices wait for a pretty bad
signal before roaming.
3. Set devices to only scan channels 1,6,11

Ruckus side:

1. Hide SSID ENABLED  (This was critical.  It seemed that by

hiding the SSID in the beacons, the mobile devices didn't see the
 AP's at constantly changing RSSI levels, so they got less
confused).
2. 802.11r, 802.11k, 802.11w disabled
3. DTIM 2 (Manufacturer
specific)
4. Directed
MC/BC threshold: 1
5. Mgmt
TX Rate 1 mbps
6. Reduce the AP output strength so that no more that 1 AP per
channel is visible at  -75 RSSI.  

If anyone else is using the vocollect devices... .this is the vocollect

device config that ended up working for us with the above ruckus
config;

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Vocollect\NETWORKD\Ra
dioSettings]

    ModulationMode=b

    PowerMode=dword:0

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Comm\SDCCF10G1\Parms\configs\G
lobalConfig]

    bLRS=dword:00000421

    RoamTrigger=dword:00000046

    RoamDelta=dword:0000000F

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michael_brado
Former Employee • 2.6K Messages • 44.8K Points

Excellent feedback Jeff, thanks.  Hm, all direction broadcast

beacons signal strength affected T5 roaming...  Did hiding the
SSID alone help the T5s?

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4 years ago
tom_pisacic
6 Messages • 110 Points

Thanks Jeff, this is the detailed report. 

Since you mentioned to mange 1 AP per channel to be visible at -75 or

lower, what is the AP overlap in that case (in percentage)?

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