



Armor: Panther Ausf G Late interior color
609 views

Skip to first unread message

Subscribe 


Buji Kern
unread,
Aug 15, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

Hi all. I'm building the Tamiya Panther G Late, and the instructions say
to paint the interior(turret walls, breech, etc..) white. Is this correct,
or is it a different color?
-- Thanks-

I'm Buji Kern, and you're not

Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci

unread,
Aug 16, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

In article <01bb8b29.aa6cd600$13365ecc@buji>,

Buji Kern <[email protected]> wrote:

>Hi all. I'm building the Tamiya Panther G Late, and the instructions say
>to paint the interior(turret walls, breech, etc..) white. Is this correct,
>or is it a different color?

White is correct.

bruce burden
unread,
Aug 16, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

Buji Kern ([email protected]) wrote:

: Hi all. I'm building the Tamiya Panther G Late, and the instructions say
: to paint the interior(turret walls, breech, etc..) white. Is this correct,
: or is it a different color?
:

White was one of the colors, a light buff is the

other. Somebody released a "dirty concrete" color that
I thought would make a nice interior color. Plain white
might be a bit stark unless it is toned down a bit.

Bruce
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Burden [email protected] Austin, Tx.

"I like bad!"

-Thuganlitha
The Power and the Prophet

Mike Kendall
unread,
Aug 17, 1996, 12:00:00 AM


 
to

>Hi all. I'm building the Tamiya Panther G Late, and the instructions say
>to paint the interior(turret walls, breech, etc..) white. Is this correct,
>or is it a different color?

>-- Thanks-

>I'm Buji Kern, and you're not

Hi,

Fellin' feisty? Paint it red oxide and wait for the, "whoa there... what's
this?" comments.... The late Panther makin' folks had a short period where
they were ordered to leave the interiors in primer (red oxide). By late '44
it was back to ivory (a light off-white). Or take the safe route and go
ivory. Gun breeches were ivory, black, or something else.... The rest of
the stuff (wiring, fuze boxes, mechanicals, etc.) was probably the color it
came from the subcontractors. Your guess is as good as most out there.

Mike

David Byrden
unread,
Aug 18, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

Buji Kern wrote:

>
> Hi all. I'm building the Tamiya Panther G Late, and the instructions say
> to paint the interior(turret walls, breech, etc..) white. Is this correct,
> or is it a different color?
> -- Thanks-

In all Panzers, the interior colour for the upper crew area was
a pale yellow-white colour called Ivory. Handles, instruments, vision ports, and
other bits of working machinery in this area were painted black.
The main gun was ivory coloured too, except for the right hand side of the
cubic "breech block" itself, which was unpainted bright steel.

The insides of crew hatches were painted in the original OUTSIDE colour
so they would not be easily visible when open. Of course, when the tank
got its camouflage, these were closed, so they would have only the base colour.

The lower part of the interior, i.e. below the level of the side sponsons,
was painted in Feldgrau, a grey-green colour, for most of the war. By the end
of the war, they were running short of paint, so they would leave the lower
area with the rustproof red primer paint that it got during construction.
This includes the floor and the entire engine compartment.

David

Mike Kendall
unread,
Aug 19, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to






> David

Close, but not quite, David. Be careful when you use the word "all" in
reference to panzer colors. There have been some recent books written on this
subject, most notibly by Jentz, that confirm this is a very complicated area
of research, with much work still left to be done. I just saw last
weekend a StugIII pulled out of a swamp in Russia that had a white
interior and gun, for instance. Read up a little and you'll find that
interiors could be white, ivory, gray or red, depending on the vehicle,
factory and time frame, and the interior components what ever color they
arrived at the factory from many different subcontractors.
It's better to generalize, unless you are talking about a particular vehicle
where the info is best known.

Mike

MMiR35701
unread,
Aug 20, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

Re: That Whole Panther Thing (real German armor freaks say "Pahnter")

Check out the Model Graphix book, "Achtung Panzer #4." There is a
wonderful series of photos of the fully restored Panther at the Koblenz
Museum in Germany. It's a Ausf. G model and most of the shots are of the
interior--in color.

Some of the interior components were rebuilt by Thyssen and may not be in
the original colors BUT... the whole thing looks mighty cool.

Some observations:

- Most of the interior is indeed white (surprise!)

- The turret basket floor is black
- The inside of the gun breech is also black
- The breech screen frame and shell ejection tray are tan
- The transmission and final drives are a medium gray
- The ammo racks are tan
- Some of the interior stowage boxes are also tan
- Any part of the lower hull visible through the equipment was red oxide

As I said, not all these colors are not necessarily accurate for your
model (I'm suspicious of the tranny since Thyssen also rebuit the
Bovington Tiger's and it's the identical color), but the above scheme
would definately be more interesting that all white.

Pat
MMiR
Mike Kendall
unread,
Aug 21, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to




>Some observations:



>Pat
>MMiR

I agree Pat, it looks real cool. But... the whole thing has been repainted
TWICE. Been there and asked them. Saumur Panther also. Bummer....

Mike

David Byrden
unread,
Aug 21, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

Mike Kendall wrote:

> >Check out the Model Graphix book, "Achtung Panzer #4." There is a
> >wonderful series of photos of the fully restored Panther at the Koblenz
> >Museum in Germany. It's a Ausf. G model and most of the shots are of the
> >interior--in color.
>
> >Some of the interior components were rebuilt by Thyssen and may not be in
> >the original colors BUT... the whole thing looks mighty cool.

I have made an extensive study of the interior colours of Panzers,

using two sources of information;

[1] crawling around the insides of Panzers at Bovington, and paying attention
only to those that had NEVER been repainted

[2] Hilary Doyle, one of the world's leading Panzer experts, who is easily able
to source original German construction orders, factory specifications, and original
paint numbers. Don't write to him, he is much too busy producing those wonderful
drawings.

I have already posted my conclusions here. There were two main colours which seem to
have been used inside every German-built tank; Ivory, a pale yellow-white, for the
upper part; and Feldgrau, a middle grey-green, for the lower part.

In the upper part, small pieces of moving machinery (vision ports, MG mountings,
door and port handles that moved, etc) were painted black. Stowage
boxes, fixed handles, and just about eveything else was ivory. (electric junction boxes,
light metallic grey-blue) Every item of equipment was labelled, with decals. Seats were
black leather. The main gun was ivory, but the cubical breech block at the back of it always
had its right side, which bore all the moving parts, as unpainted steel. The inside of the
breech was obviously also unpainted steel. (The British Army apparently had the habit of
painting this breech block dark green the minute they started testing a captured panzer)

The crew hatches were painted in the base exterior colour, so as not to be prominent
when open. (The Tiger escape hatch was an exception, as it was rarely used). When
the tank got camouflage added later, the doors would be closed, so we had
unusual effects, e.g. brown Afrika Korps vehicles with doors which were practically
black (Panzer Grey) on the inside.

The grey green colour of the lower part of the vehicle, was painted almost uniformly
on everything down there. However, the interior of a working tank was oily, and
the floor would obviously be very discoloured from muddy feet etc.

The dividing line between the green and ivory parts was apparently chosen by the
manufacturers. Typically the lower edge of the turret would be used as a dividing
line, with the legs of the turret basket etc being painted feldgrau exactly up to this
line (for no good reason). On the hull insides, each tank type had its own dividing line,
usually around the bottom of the sponsons.
During manufacture, the tank was painted entirely in red rustproof oxide, and it would
be driven away with this still on the tracks. Right at the end of the war, the
feldgrau paint was dropped to save money, and the lower parts of the interior were
left in this dull red colour.

David

Mike Kendall
unread,
Aug 22, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

(stuff snipped that wasn't me)










> David

Hi David,

I accept that you might have a lot of experience inside German WWII tanks, and
I mean no disrespect to you, but I have seen vehicles freshly recovered from
Russia with both white and red oxide, not ivory, interiors. Red Lead
paint used by the Germans early in the war as the principle primer is
an entirely different shad of red than oxide. Sometimes interiors were
painted in two colors, top and bottom as you suggest, and sometimes not. Tom
Jentz, with probably more knowledge of German vehicle painting orders than
most human beings, also suggests that interior colors were veriable, depending
on manufacturer and date of manufacter (God knows I also respect Doyle, but
I've not read the specific comments you made above in his writings). And
that's not to mention remanufactured vehicles, sometimes being refitted and
painted at another factory than the one they were originally assembled in.

I do agree with a lot of your remarks above, but I suggest an important issue
here is to recommend color possibilities to modelers based on the best
available information, and not to indicate one specific paint scheme for all
German WWII tanks (your ivory interiors, red oxide primer, etc.). In my
experience there is always that one exception, sometimes hundreds of them,
that proves us all wrong on specifics.

Mike

David Byrden
unread,
Aug 22, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

Mike Kendall wrote:

> I accept that you might have a lot of experience inside German WWII tanks, and
> I mean no disrespect to you, but I have seen vehicles freshly recovered from
> Russia with both white and red oxide, not ivory, interiors.

What vintage were these vehicles? Was the white genuinely white, or was it
possibly the ivory colour, which was quite pale? Were they white above and red below,
as I suggested late-war vehicles would be?

I'm not sure at all of the difference between red lead and red oxide. Have
you reference numbers for them? I must try to dig out the correct numbers for the
paints I was describing. In any case, this red colour would not be visible on the
finished vehicle, except at the end of the war if it were left uncovered in the
lower interior.

> Sometimes interiors were

> painted in two colors, top and bottom as you suggest, and sometimes not.
Have you seen where it was the "not" case? All info appreciated!

> (God knows I also respect Doyle, but

> I've not read the specific comments you made above in his writings).

He's never actually written on this subject, that I know of.

> I do agree with a lot of your remarks above, but I suggest an important issue
> here is to recommend color possibilities to modelers based on the best
> available information, and not to indicate one specific paint scheme for all
> German WWII tanks (your ivory interiors, red oxide primer, etc.).

Well, it's just that I have seen no evidence *against* the scheme I
described, despite having photos from inside several tanks in different
museums.
For example; the Saumur Tiger appears to be olive green inside, but
a close exmaination reveals that some naughty French person simply
sprayed that colour all over the insides in order to cover up the rust.
Glass and rubber items got covered! Close examination of what he missed, shows
ivory above and red below.

I shall ask Mr. Doyle whether it's OK to put up a Web page with
information about this. He may want to reserve his data for publication in
a book.

----------------------

ANYWAY - I want to add MORE information to what I posted;

I looked at thin-sheet-metal stowage boxes in several vehicles from the

early to middle war years, and they all had been delivered from
the thin-sheet-metal-workshop (or wherever) painted Black, a nearly
matt black. After being bolted in place, they got painted ivory
or whatever along with the rest; but in the case of boxes with lids,
when you open them up, they're always black inside.
This applies to everything from little boxes of spare MG components,
to the large stowage boxes on Pz3 and Pz4 and Tiger turrets.

David

Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci

unread,
Aug 22, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

While there are several options to go with on interior colors, it sounds

like a variation of white/ivory for the bulk of the interior seems
correct, along with the various details in colors.
A practical detail that will also muddle the issue, along with any
manufacturing lack of standard, I would suppose that crews might want to
add more white to the interior to brighten up things for practacle
visibility. A half-red or grey interior would make things all that much
more dark. But that is only a speculation.

Mike Kendall
unread,
Aug 23, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

(all previous snipped to save space)

Hi David,

To answer your questions, the mid to late Stug IIIG I saw was manufactured by
Alkett sometime betweem late '43 amd early '44, judging by the vehicle
number and presence of various components I noted, and was pulled
from a swamp in Russia. It has a definate white interior, roof, walls and
floor, spray painted over the red oxide primer which shows through in areas of
high wear. The Panther was a late '44 version with only red oxide paint
inside for the roof, walls and floor, and was from the batch that didn't
receive any interior painting. I don't know if other German vehicles went
through this same mandate of not finish painting the interior (somebody help
me here), but I speculate that they did, especially Tiger IIs of similar
manufacture dates. Again, I refer you to Jentz's writing in his Panther book
and the New Vanguard series.
In my experience, the difference between early red lead and late red
oxide primer is both in sheen and color. I believe red lead is a
semigloss or gloss paint, and is very red. The red oxide is a semigloss
or flat primer, more similar to modern primers, and had a brown pigment
component in it. by the way, the three times I've now seen roiginal
zimmerit freshly chipped off armor, the undercoat paint was red primer.
I don't know the official numbers for these primer paints, but given some
time for a few phone calls I can try to dig them up for you. I also have
no information as to why there was a change in basic primer, and
suggest that the change was sporadic, depending when old stocks were
exhausted in the factories.

As I mentioned in previous posts, I'm well aware of the tragic repainting that
has been going on to museum vehicles over the last fourty years. Twenty
years ago I began photographing every AFV interior and engine compartment
I was able to get into, and 3,000 photos later I have learned to distinguish
original from repaint. It's hard to trust any paint finish found in a museum
vehicle anymore. I also posted here a few months ago that I had contacted
Saumur Museum about their interior colors seen in the "Panzer of Saumur"
books and received the reply that the vehicles had refinished interiors, some
a couple of times, and the museum staff could not swear for their "pigment
authenticity" (the French have such a wonderful way with words).

It would be really refreshing to see Doyle, or any other AFV artist with an
eye for color and lots of time for research, write a narritive on WWII AFV
interior colors. But, I betcha' a six pack of your favorite beer, that if he
or anyone else indicates that "all" of anything was painted only this one
way...., I will be able to find an exception to the rule.

Again, that's my point. War's a crazy time for everybody. There's not
enough time and materials to do the job perfectly by the book, especially near
the end when your're losing the war, production increases have been mandated,
and the factory's getting carpet bombed monthly. There's also a boat-load of
subcontractors, suppling everything from vision blocks to turrets, each
painting their components independently. As an example, look at zimmerit
application, another subject I've been interested in for awhile. A definate
pattern was mandated to trowel apply the stuff. But then there were
factories like Alkett that did it their own way: waffle patterns applied
with a big stamp that helped cut the application time dramatically. As I
began above, I suspect, and can verify in some instances, that interior (and
exterior) AFV painting followed the same general vagaries, depending on
factory and date of completion.

Whew....
Thanks for the info on storage bin interiors being painted black in your
experience. I never noticed this before and will watch for them. I wonder
why black? Doesn't make much sense to make it dark in there....

Mike

David Byrden
unread,
Aug 23, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci wrote:

> A practical detail that will also muddle the issue, along with any
> manufacturing lack of standard, I would suppose that crews might want to
> add more white to the interior to brighten up things for practacle
> visibility. A half-red or grey interior would make things all that much
> more dark. But that is only a speculation.

I agree with you there - my first thought on looking into the

later vehicles was "why is the red paint so dark"? The Feldgrau wasn't
so bad, but it was uniformly painted over almost every piece of machinery,
so nothing stood out.

There is evidence that the German tank designers simply did

not have what we would call "good ergonomics" or "user feedback". The
British engineering analysis of a captured Tiger points out that the
gunner's position was very uncomfortable and could easily have been
improved by moving a few things around.

When the Tiger 1 was upgraded, they made a lot of changes to

it, mostly by substituting Tiger II components for the original
ones (the cupola is an example). The turret interior was the most altered
part of the tank; but the comfort of the gunner was not improved at all.

David
Not A Number
unread,
Aug 23, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996 03:09:16 GMT, [email protected]

(Mike Kendall) wrote:
FWIW: Feist and Culver 1992 Tiger I book has an entire of B&W interior
photos of what I believe is the Bovington Tiger being disassembled for
restoration. One photo caption mentions that the upper interior
superstructure is GLOSS white. No mention is made of the rest of the
colors but it is clear from the photos that the interior is a two tone
scheme. It is also of interest that where equipment has been removed
(such as the driver's vison block) the color appears to be darker than
the lower interior paint, however it's difficult to tell from photos
and the Bovington Tiger has been exposed to the elements for many
years.

Kevin Barry
unread,
Aug 25, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

Mike Kendall wrote:

> To answer your questions, the mid to late Stug IIIG I saw was
> manufactured by Alkett sometime betweem late '43 amd early '44,
> judging by the vehicle number and presence of various components
> I noted, and was pulled from a swamp in Russia.

Mike,

I've been reading with great interested the rumors in the avaiation
newsgroups of WWII aircraft being recovered in Russia.
This is the first mention of armored vehicles being recovered as well.

Could you provide more details on who, what and where this is taking
place ? Are photo records being kept of the recoveries ? Will the
vehicles go to museums, private collections or are they being turned
into scrap ? I hope not scrap...

The former Soviet Union is so large that literally anything could turn
up in some out of the way place. Any information you could provide would
be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Kevin Barry

John Harris
unread,
Aug 25, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

Further to the previous posts, there have been a number of mentions in the
British magazine 'Wheels & Tracks' of wreck recovery in the former Soviet Union.

I remember a Valentine being fished out of a river and returned to Canada, I

have also seen a fairly wrecked STUG III, although of an early mark. There was
also an article about a Russian recovery group, who had recovered and restored a
'Kosmolets' tractor. There are of course a number of AFVs as war memorials in
Eastern Europe, usually in a pose of submission under a T-34!. There is of
course the 'reserve' collection at Kublinka, which if you believe the recently
published photos, contains a 'RammTiger' ;-)

There are a number of rumours that the Soviets kept large numbers of Panthers
and Tigers as 'reserve' equipment, but there is very little, if any, concrete
information on the subject.

It's a pity that there is no 'rec.military.vehicles', which would be a better

place to post such information.
John
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
||
| John Harris [email protected]|
||
| UK Military Modelling Home Page : http://www.argonet.co.uk.users/jch/ |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Paul A. Owen
unread,
Aug 25, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

From a modelling point of view... since these are interior colours

I do not think that exact shades will really make that much of a
difference, for example, white or ivory, or what the exact shade
of the primer was. things are pretty dark inside a model interior,
unless you have a cut-away or something, or a blown up tank - in
which case the paint would have to be burned and stuff... but I
digress.

Anyhow, I have some colour recommendations at my web site in the

AFV Paints database for German interiors. I think I got the
references from a Military Modelling article that used Doyle
as reference, they are Humbrol colours.

--
+-====================-+-===========================================-+
| Paul A. Owen | TRACK-LINK The AFV Modeler's Page |
| [email protected] | http://www.islandnet.com/~paulie/index.html |
+-====================-+-===========================================-+

Tim
unread,
Aug 25, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

On Aug 25, 1996 02:25:42 in article <Soviet Panzers was Re: Panzer interior

colors -long>, 'Kevin Barry <[email protected]>' wrote:

>Mike Kendall wrote:

>
>> To answer your questions, the mid to late Stug IIIG I saw was

>> manufactured by Alkett sometime between late '43 amd early '44,

>> judging by the vehicle number and presence of various components

>> I noted, and was pulled from a swamp in Russia.
>
>Mike,
>
>I've been reading with great interested the rumors in the avaiation
>newsgroups of WWII aircraft being recovered in Russia.
>
>This is the first mention of armored vehicles being recovered as well.
>
>Could you provide more details on who, what and where this is taking
>place ? Are photo records being kept of the recoveries ? Will the
>vehicles go to museums, private collections or are they being turned
>into scrap ? I hope not scrap...
>
>The former Soviet Union is so large that literally anything could turn
>up in some out of the way place. Any information you could provide would
>be greatly appreciated.

On a recent visit to an armour museum I was told that the owner had found
six tigers in Russia in various places including one driven into a peat bog
(but only partially sunk and in great condition) and another sitting in the
middle of a minefield that had the wheels blown off. He also told me that
"somewhere in Western Europe" (he would not even give the country) was a
tiger and a panther sitting in a barn. He told me that the problem was that
these countries all have antiquity laws that give the nation the right to
confiscate these tanks as soon as they leave private property. So for now
they are not being moved and he won't tell where they are.

Steven Zaloga
unread,
Aug 25, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

The Ram Tiger photo that is floating around is a clever fake done by
computer. It is based on the boneyard behind the Kubinka museum. I
can assure you, there is no Ram Tiger there. The photo doesn't make a
bit of sense, as it shows the vehicle in a perfectly clean "modelers"
paint scheme 50 years after- no way! The recent Trevor Larkum book
mentions several tanks that have shown up in Russia recently
including at least one Tiger I.

Mike Kendall
unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

>Mike Kendall wrote:

>> To answer your questions, the mid to late Stug IIIG I saw was

>> manufactured by Alkett sometime betweem late '43 amd early '44,

>> judging by the vehicle number and presence of various components

>> I noted, and was pulled from a swamp in Russia.

>Mike,

>I've been reading with great interested the rumors in the avaiation
>newsgroups of WWII aircraft being recovered in Russia.
>This is the first mention of armored vehicles being recovered as well.

>Could you provide more details on who, what and where this is taking
>place ? Are photo records being kept of the recoveries ? Will the
>vehicles go to museums, private collections or are they being turned
>into scrap ? I hope not scrap...

>The former Soviet Union is so large that literally anything could turn
>up in some out of the way place. Any information you could provide would
>be greatly appreciated.

>Thanks,
>Kevin Barry

Hi Kevin,

The Stug came from Riga, I believe. I don't know where that is, but suspect
it is in Latvia. I saw the vhicle when it arrived in Virginia.

And yes, as others have posted, there is a lot of interesting stuff coming out
of Russia recently. The economics of the times are so pressing that the
Russians are selling practically anything of value. Kind of a pitty, when a
people are so desperate that everything has a price. Do you want a T-72?
Only $75,000, but you pay the freight. T-55s are even cheaper, even a runner
can be had for $25,000 or less.

The StugIII came to the US in exchange for military equipment, but the details
are unavailable.

Mike

Richard Scott
unread,
Aug 28, 1996, 12:00:00 AM



to

>
>It's a pity that there is no 'rec.military.vehicles', which would be a better
>place to post such information.
>
>John
>

Hi all

My news feed does carry a group called "rec.military.vehicles" ,

it is usually an empty group mind you

Scottie

[email protected]
unread,
Jul 22, 2019, 5:23:33 AM



to

On Thursday, August 15, 1996 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Buji Kern wrote:

> Hi all. I'm building the Tamiya Panther G Late, and the instructions say
> to paint the interior(turret walls, breech, etc..) white. Is this correct,
> or is it a different color?
> -- Thanks-
>

> I'm Buji Kern, and you're not

Hi Buji,

the correct color is actually an off white. I hope this helps

Cheers from Stephan

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
Armor: Panther Ausf G Late interior color
Message unstarred