Minutes 2 Ndeag
Minutes 2 Ndeag
Agenda Item No.1 : Confirmation of the Minutes of the 1st
EAG Meeting
The minutes of the 1st Meeting, as held on 78 January, 2004; were
considered and, thereupon, confirmed unanimously by the EAG.
Agenda Item No. 2 : Bathymetric Survey & Offshore data
collection
The EAG was apprised of the details of the Bathymetric work as
completed in PhaseI, expenditure incurred, report received and the
recommendations of National Institute of Ocean Technology(NIOT).
The report of NIOT was scrutinized by the international experts and
according to the experts’ opinion and NIOT as well, the corridor of
approximately 2 km. width is considered to be “undisturbed” and it
is identified as the final dam alignment. They have also
recommended the survey of closed intervals to find out, if any, geo
hazard and thereby sought to mitigate the same. On this point,
Prof. Biswas asked as to how the 2 Km. wide corridor/ portion is
considered to be safe whereas the northern and southern portions
are affected by faults and geotectonic activities etc. Dr. D. Venkata
Rao from NIOT explained this issue in detail. After that, it was
decided to obtain a detailed report in this regard from NIOT. Also,
the EAG was convinced of the necessity for further survey in close
interval for the tentatively considered dam alignment portion. In
addition to this, Dr. Venkata Rao gave additional information
regarding the change in the policy of the Department of Earth
Sciences, New Delhi, according to which the department has
directed NIOT not to take any work in the form of private
consultancy.
EAG after Detailed discussion recommended the following:
(i) As informed by NIOT Project Officer Dr. D. Venkata Rao,
Department of Earth Science, Government of India, New Delhi,
has introduced certain policy changes for not taking private
consultancy work by NIOT. The EAG, however, opined that since
the close interval survey in the 2 km. wide corridor under the
assigned Bathymetric work of Kalpasar department is not a new
assignment but an ancillary/extended work assigned earlier and
carried out by NIOT, Kalpasar Department should immediately
write a letter at Chief Secretary level to Secretary, Department
of Earth Sciences, New Delhi for allowing the NIOT to carry out
the remaining 2 km. corridor works.
(ii) Dr. D. Venkata Rao of NIOT requested a nominal 10% price
escalation in view of very high price hike in fuel. The EAG felt
It was also decided that topographical contouring of Narmada (up to
Sardar Sarovar, Karjan), Mahi (up to Kadana, Panam, Bhadar (P)
Dam), Sabarmati (upto Dharoi and other dams of Sabarmati basin),
Dhadhar (up to Deo) and other eight rivers of Saurashtra regions
should be carried out by Survey of India in order to supplement
various feasibility studies such as EIA/SIA, Morphological studies,
Regime modelling, Water quality, effect of flood etc.
Agenda Item No. 4 : Regime Modelling (Mathematical
Modelling and Physical Modelling)
EAG was apprised of the earlier regime modelling work carried out
and proposed during the prefeasibility and six specific studies. The
assistance of CWPRS (Central Water and Power Research Station),
Pune was obtained for regime modelling studies earlier. The EAG
opined that the Central Government Institute, CWPRS, Pune should,
preferably, be engaged to carry out all the modelling activities as
envisaged in the prefeasibility and six specific studies.
Dr. Purandare, Additional Director, CWPRS, Pune explained the difficulties
they face in procuring the essential software of particular brand for 2D3D
mathematical modelling. Therefore, CWPRS requires the help of
WAPCOS. Similarly for data collection required for this modelling and for
engaging the staff, CWPRS requires the help of WAPCOS. The Chairman,
EAG opined that since the WAPCOS is not known to possess “in
house capabilities” as required for the intended purpose, the joint
venture of CWPRS Pune with WAPCOS is unlikely to serve any
useful purpose. Prof. Biswas also supported this view. Accordingly,
the EAG has advised that following alternatives to be pursued for
carrying out the regime modelling activities.
(a) Kalpasar technical cell will procure software as per
CWPRS requirement.
(b) For specific Software needed for mathematical
modelling as desired by CWPRS, an option of taking
help of IITs should also be examined.
(c) To examine the possibility of tying up CWPRS with
ECOSMART, Delhi, for GIS and data management
related activities.
(d) For data collection, the possibility of taking the
assistance of GPCB, GERI or NEERI should be explored.
(e) In view of above, the EAG also suggested that the
Department should evolve a “simplified and fasttrack”
procedure for procurement in order to ensure that the
procurement takes place without delaying the
completion of “Timebound” studies to be undertaken by
the CWPRS,Pune.
EAG suggested to take the help of Dr.Z.S.Tarapore, an eminent
expert consultant and ExDirector CWPRS, as a consultant. Further,
the EAG advised that if CWPRS is not coming up with satisfactory
performance within three months, all activities required as per six
specific studies, and prefeasibility studies or as may be proposed
by Dr.Z.S.Tarapore, these may be carried out by inviting global
competitive bidding.
Agenda No. 5 : Project management & Design consultant
(PMDC)
The PMDC concept was earlier considered by the Kalpasar
Department. Subsequently, the Department modified the scope
following consultations with EAG Member, Prof. Sutmuller. The
Expression of Interest(EOI) and the criteria for short listing were
appraised to EAG.
EAG, after considering the scope of PMDC, felt that the scope
requires some modifications. The technical and financial marking
methodology mentioned in various annexures of the Agenda are in
order. However, at the present stage of EOI, such type of detailed
marking system, as put up in agenda item No. 5, may not be
necessary. These can be useful, perhaps with modifications, at a
later stage of detailed bidding.
The time schedule for the procurement of the PMDC services and
the draft Terms of Reference for the PMDC would be prepared prior
to the next EAG meeting of January 2007.
Regarding the scope, responsibilities of PMDC and minimum
eligibility criteria, the EAG suggested the following modifications:
1.0 Scope / responsibilities of PMDC
• To prepare the scope and TOR for various remaining
studies and project related activities as well as to suggest
the consultants required for such studies / activities.
• To assist/advise the Kalpasar Department in preparation of
qualification criteria for evaluation of bids as well as in the
evaluation of bids.
• To assist in the selection and appointment of third party
consultants for specific studies/issues, relating to the
Kalpasar Project.
• To coordinate and monitor various agencies / activities
and apprise the Kalpasar Department from time to time.
• To design Data Management System(GIS based).
• To prepare preliminary Engineering Designs of all
components of the projects along with suitable construction
techniques and technologies as required.
• To prepare the cost estimates.
• To evaluate the reports of the various studies and offer
recommendations.
• To prepare the proposals for various clearances to be
obtained from the State and Central Departments.
• To prepare bankable DPR based on findings of various
studies.
• To assist exploring the possibilities of procuring finances
for project implementation from National/International
funding agencies including the alternative process of
private sector partnership or a combination of both.”
2.0 It was also suggested to reframe Para A2 of minimum
eligibility criteria as follows:
“The bidder shall have the extensive experience of PMDC
work / designing work including third party quality control or
other such appreciations in various survey works required for
the project and / or DPR preparation for all types of following
works:
(i) Offshore barrier type structures.
(ii) Low head Hydropower generation projects, having
aggregate capacity to 1000 MW.
(iii) Extensive experience in irrigation and water
management projects.
(iv) Expertise in financial planning and resources
mobilization.
(v) Experience in the closure of tidal basin.
(vi) Financial evaluation and planning for water resources
projects.
(vii) Environment and social impact assessment of
multipurpose projects.
Agenda No. 6 : Environmental Impact Assessment/Social
Impact Assessment Study (EIA/SIA)
EAG was apprised of the work carried out so far in Environmental
Impact Assessment/Social Impact Assessment Studies, as per the
details given in Agenda and Annexure. EAG appreciated the
activities initiated by the Department in Environmental Impact
Assessment/Social Impact Assessment Study.
proposed in the estimate for this study is Rs. 49 lakhs, which seems
quite reasonable for such a major project like Kalpasar. EAG
approved NEERI’S proposal and recommended that phase1 be
carried out. NEERI should carry out this work, the results of which
should be available next EAG meeting for review and further action.
In addition, in consultation with NEERI, possibility of taking services
for appropriate NGOs working in Gujarat, including those noted
earlier, may be explored for baseline data collection in the area in
which they are expert and for utilising the data available with them.
Regarding Phase2 and Phase3 of Environmental Impact
Assessment / Social Impact Assessment Study, it was decided that
the thirty proposals already received through Expression of Interest
(EOI) should be considered after getting clearance from MOEF for
the work done in Phase1, and should be discussed during the next
EAG meeting.
AGENDA No. 7 : Geotechnical investigation and seismic
studies
EAG was apprised of the earlier works carried out and
recommendations and points of potential concerns expressed in
reconnaissance Report, prefeasibility report and six specific studies
report.
Geotechnical and seismic studies also include the study of general
geology of the area. As explained by Mr. D. Venkata Rao, Project
Director, NIOT(National Institute of Ocean Technology), other than
the 2km wide dam corridor area, the Northern and Southern areas
are geotectonically active and contain many faults, which may
become active in future. There are foundation problems in
constructing spillway at the mouth of Narmada River. EAG advised
that this being a very important issue, it should be decided at the
earliest. Further, the Kalpasar department apprised EAG that the
EOI (Expression of Interest) were called two and half years ago,
and 22 firms have submitted EOI. As done for EIA/SIA, the
Department invited all the 22 firms/ agencies/institutes to make
presentations on issues related to the Geotechnical study. However,
no firm has come up for giving presentations on geotechnical
drilling activities. Further, the locations to be decided for drilling of
the holes are dependent upon the finalization of alignment of
Kalpasar dam by completing detailed close interval bathymetric and
geophysical survey work in 2 Km wide corridor which is to be taken
up in the next season. (i.e. October to March) by NIOT, Chennai.
The work of NIOT for 2km wide dam corridor is likely to be
hampered as the Department of Earth Sciences, Government of
India, has asked the NIOT not to take up further commercial
activities. Also, the criteria for short listing, T.O.R. (Terms of
Reference) for geotechnical study as well as bid papers are not
ready. Hence, the EAG advised that EOI called for earlier for
geotechnical investigation activities has now no value and has to be
scrapped.
EAG suggested three experts from IIT(Indian Institute of
Technology), Chennai, as mentioned in item No. 18 of agenda for
EAG meeting. They should be given this assignment and in parallel
NGRI (National Geophysical Research Institute) Hyderabad, Mr.
Basu (Director, A.E.R.B.) and Mr. Laxman (Director, S.E.R.C.)
should also be immediately contacted. Their services should be
availed in consultation with the EAG Chairman EAG, and the
consultants for this item should be immediately finalized. TOR for
this work should prepared and placed before the EAG for
consideration for the next meeting.
Agenda Item No. 8 : Irrigation & Water Supply
Points pertaining to the water availability and water allocation were
discussed in detail. The Expert Advisory Group recommended the
following line of actions:
1. Review of assessment of water availability should be taken up
by extending hydrological data series up to 2005, especially in
view of the latest development that has taken place in the
water sector like Sujalam Suphalam Yojana, Check Dams, etc.
Allocation of 3 MAF surplus water from Narmada to
Saurashtra, North Gujarat and Kachchh region which now
should be taken into account. Reassessment of water
availability is required to be done on the basis of 75% and
60% dependability.
2. For the reassessment of the water availability and water use
studies for different sectors like irrigation, domestic &
industrial water supply, a group of experts comprising of
hydrologist, agricultural and sociology experts and economist
should be constituted. This group should verify/ scrutinize
and update the B/C ratio as well as cost of area under
submergence. This group should also examine various social
and economic aspects of the irrigation network and study the
economic viability of alternative irrigation network. The group
will also review the previous and present criteria. The study
is to be divided into two parts (i) availability of water, and (ii)
judicious allocation of water for different purposes.
10
11
impact of Kalpasar Project on the existing ports, their capacity with
future development, potential of developing new ports, ship
carrying capacity, ship lock size, nos. and capacity, feasibility of
relocation of ports, viability of port development outside the
Kalpasar Project, effect on the Luhara Port and Dahej port during
flood in Narmada after the construction of Kalpasar Project, need to
be very carefully studied as well as their impacts/effects on
Kalpasar Project. Further, it was pointed out that all these issues
were also discussed earlier during the meeting of the Kalpsar
Department with Hon’ble Chief Minister of Gujarat and Chief
Secretary, Govt .of Gujarat. Accordingly, the National
Environmental Engineering Research Institute and National Institute
of Oceanography (both Central Government Organizations) have
been requested by the Department (Vide letter KLP7200694
Kalpsar, dated 772006) to study the impact of the Kalpsar project
on the existing and proposed ports. The EAG examined the
proposal of NEERI and NIO and discussed at length with Shri.
Sukumar Devotta. Director NEERI and Shri. S.R.Wate Dy.Director,
NEERI, as well as with Shri. Purandare from CWPRS. After
examining all the details, EAG recommended that NEERI, NIO, and
CWPRS should submit a combined proposal immediately. The
revised proposal, including the works of CWPRS amounting to RS
1.20 crores, was recommended by the EAG. It further suggested
that this group should carry out the study and submit their report
within a period of 12 months, after input data is received from the
Kalpasar Department.
The data available with the Kalpasar Department pertaining to the
pre feasibility and six specific studies will be provided to NEERI and
further data, if any, required will be collected by NEERI itself. NEERI
should act as a nodal agency with NIO and CWPRS.
Item No. 11 : Water Quality Impact
The main issues discussed were:are…
1. Water quality monitoring programme for the inflowing rivers
with concurrent measurements of water quality & quantity.
The monitoring interval should be weekly & the duration
should cover several rainy seasons.
2. Detailed evaluation of the use of pesticides and herbicides,
and their presence in surface and groundwater.
3. Export rates of fertilizers monitoring of experimental
catchments over several seasons should be carried out.
12
To this, the EAG advised to take following actions:
1. NEERI could be engaged as Nodal agency, which will provide
technical guidance for the studies.
2. The Gujarat Pollution Control Board(GPCB) will be the
implementing agency and will collect the data required for
Water Quality Impact study under the overall guidance of
NEERI. Critical period is in the premonsoon season for which
certain parameters are required to be designed.
3. Regarding water quality, the services of Shri Pariahosh Tyagi,
Ex. Chairman, Central Pollution Control Board, as a consultant
and Shri K.G. Rathod, Member Secretary, GPCB may be
utilized.
4. The Chairman, EAG suggested that the data collection
regarding Water Quality Impact study should be carried out in
such a manner so that it will be useful also for the overall EIA
study.
Agenda Item No. 12 : Drainage Aggravation and Salt Balance
modeling in fresh water reservoir.
Dr. Chaudhary, who worked as a consultant during six specific
studies and prefeasibility studies and is at present a consultant for
the Kalpasar Department, appraised the EAG. The freshwater
reservoir of Kalpasar Project is envisaged in the Gulf of Cambay. At
present, water, land and the groundwater in this area are highly
saline. In the earlier six specific studies which used by mathematical
modeling, it was predicted that the stratification will take place in
the freshwater reservoir. The fresh potable water layer will be on
top and dense saline layer will be at the bottom of the reservoir.
The dense highly saline layer will be periodically taken out through
sluices located at MSL 14m to 19m. The stratification will be
disturbed due to lifting the water for irrigation, inflow from rivers,
wind, temperature, ship movement, etc. as well as the fresh water
reservoir will also be effected from salinity leakages from tidal
basin, land reclamation, rivers inflow etc.
Looking to the importance of the highly sensitive and crucial aspect
in the feasibility of Kalpasar project, the EAG suggested that Dr.
Chaudhari, Consultant, Kalpasar Project should immediately work
out all these parameters and Dr. Tarapore, should be involved in
this study so that later on, mathematical as well as physical
modelling may be carried out, if considered necessary. The EAG also
desired that the services of IIT’s software for modelling should be
availed, if possible. Also, the technical assistance of CWPRS should
be obtained in consultation with Dr. Tarapore and the Chairman,
EAG.
13
Agenda Item No. 13 : Hydrological & Morphological
In furtherance to the earlier item No.12 of Drainage Aggravation
and Salt Balance modeling in fresh water reservoir. the following
points regarding Hydrological & Morphological item were appraised
to EAG :
1. Sedimentation in Lake Kalpasar during its life time.
2. Possible increased flooding along the former estuaries of the
four major rivers entering into the proposed lake.
3. Another aspect of critical importance in the location of the
closure dam is too close proximity to the Luhara point during
extreme Narmada floods due to which the area will be
subjected to scour and thereby resulting in an attack on the
foundation of dam. Moreover there is the risk of bank erosion
of the Luhara point. The induced scour will also result in
sedimentation near the most Southern Dahej jetty.
4. Morphological changes will proceed much quicker and problem
of siltation will be at a number of locations.
5. Dimensions and locations of the spillway in the closure with
consideration of upstream flooding, sediment problems and
costs, foundation depth and the need for bank protection
works.
The EAG suggested that action should be initiated on the similar
lines as suggested for item 12 of drainage aggravation and salt
balance modeling in fresh water reservoir in consultation with Dr.
Tarapore and Dr. Chaudhary.
Agenda No. 14 : Transportation
The EAG has been apprised of the importance of transportation
component for the economic viability and privatesector
participation in the Kalpasar Project as well as the proposal of the
Infrastructure Leasing and Financial service Limited for the bridge
for transportation between Bhavnagar and Bharuch. After
discussion, EAG agreed with the appraisal made by the Department
and suggested that the componentwise cost of Kalpasar Project
should be worked out in the Concept paper and thereafter this item
should be placed for further advice.
14
Agenda Item No. 15 : Fisheries
The EAG was apprised of the effects on Hilsa fish after freshwater
reservoir will be created in Kalpasar. After taking note about the
new spices of fishes, fishpron etc. in the proposed freshwater
reservoir, as mentioned in agenda item, the EAG suggested that a
suitable expert of fisheries be engaged as a consultant who should
examine this aspect first and then the expert’s report &
recommendations, alongwith Action Taken Report (ATR), should be
placed before the EAG.
Agenda Item No. 16 : Dam design and design of hydraulic
structures
After considering the agenda item, the EAG was of the opinion that
since it is interlinked with other agenda items like bathymetric
survey, regime modelling, geotechnical investigation and seismic
study etc; it is premature to decide the parameters of dam design
and hydraulic structures, the findings of studies as earlier carried
out during six specific studies should be referred for the preparation
of Strategic Paper and for deciding the estimated cost of the
Project.
Agenda Item No. 17 : Proposal of a bridge from
Infrastructure Leasing and
Financial Services Limited
This item was already discussed under agenda item No 14.
Agenda Item No.18: Panel of experts
1.0 The EAG recommended the services of the following experts
may be utilized as consultants to take up various feasibility
studies relating to the fields of their specialization:
Sr. Name of Experts Present Service / Subject
No. Ex. position expertise
1 Mr. S. Z. Qasim Retd. Director, NIO, Bathymetry
Goa.
2 Dr. H. R. Sharma Retd. Chairman, CEA Tidal Power
Generation
3 Dr. C. D. Thatte Retd. Chairman, Irrigation &
C.W.C. & Secy. Gen; Drainage
ICID, New Delhi.
4 Dr. Z. S. Tarapore Retd. Director, Regime
CWPRS.Pune. Modeling
15
Sr. Name of Experts Present Service / Subject
No. Ex. position expertise
5 Dr.D.G. Faldu Retd. Prof. Walmi, Agriculture
Anand.
6 Mr. Parithosh C. Tyagi Retd. Chairman, EIA/ SIA
CPCB. Study
7 Dr. N. Laxman, Director, SERC Tsunami
Impact Study
8 Dr. Prabir Basu, Director, AERB Tsunami
Impact Study
9 Dr. Adimoolam Assistant Prof. IIT, Seismic &
Boominathan Chennai Geotechnical
10 Dr.G.R. Dodagoudar Assistant Prof. IIT, Seismic &
Chennai Geotechnical
11 Dr. S. R. Gandhi Prof. IIT.Chennai Seismic &
Geotechnical
12 Mr. K. D. Rathod Retd. Member EIA/ SIA
Secretary, GPCB. Study
13 Capt. Abhijit Retd. Officer, Ports
Chaudhari Gujarat Maritime
Board.
14 Mr. D. M. Pancholi Retd. Superintending Seismic &
Engineer Geotechnical
C.D.O.Gandhinagar
15 Mr.C.K. Bhagatwala Retd. Executive Irrigation,
Engineer, C.D.O. Water Supply
Gandhinagar & water
Availability
2.0 Additional names of experts suggested by EAG are as follows;
Sr. Name of Experts Subject expertise
No.
1 Mr. E.A.S. Sarma, Tidal Power Generation
former Secy. Ministry of Power
2 Mr. H. M. Bajaj, Ex.Chairman Power Economics
CEA
3 Mr. N. B. Desai Dam Design Hydraulic
Structure
4 Mr. B. J. Parmar Dam Construction
Technique
5 Mr. G. L. Jawa Water availability
6 Dr. Ramadevi, IIT, Delhi EIA/ SIA Study
7 Dr. Krishnapal, RITES EIA/ SIA Study
8 Dr. U. D. Datir Modelling
16
3.0 "Looking to the size of Kalpasar Project and the multiplicity
and complexity of issues, it is very difficult to carry out the
feasibility report with the help of the national experts only.
Earlier, in reconnaissance report, Prefeasibility report and six
specific studies, the help of international experts were taken.
However, EAG has shown their concern about Kalpasar
department which has not finalized GR for availing the
services of international experts. For international consultants,
EAG has suggested and recommended following parameters
for availing the services:
a. Three category for perdium remuneration is
recommended is 750 US$, 500 US$ & 300 US$".
b. To and fro air journey in economy class only.
c. Appropriate lodging & boarding facilities should be
provided
d. For actual travel time, the entitlement at the rate of
50% of entitled per diem.
4.0 The Chairman, EAG, in consultation with other members will
provide to the Kalpasar Department the names of
consultants, their areas of expertise, remuneration rates and
categories under which their services will be required.
Item No. 19 : Strategic Paper on Kalpasar Project
19.1 In response to Prof. Asit. K. Biswas’s suggestion to produce a
Strategic Paper on the realistic options that are available to
the Government of Gujarat in terms of proceeding with the
detailed feasibility study and thereby using EAG for strategic
thinking and high level advice to the Government of Gujarat,
the Chairman EAG suggested that Prof.. Sutmuller and Prof.
Asit K. Biswas, both members of EAG, will jointly prepare the
Strategic Paper. The strategic paper is to provide a roadmap
for the formulation and implementation of Kalpasar Project.
The draft strategic paper will be placed for discussion in the
next EAG meeting likely to take place in the 2nd week of
January 2007. The remuneration for the preparation of the
above strategic paper will be in accordance with the latest GR
No.EAG3200631Kalpasar dated 16062006 on
reconstitution of the EAG.
1. To discuss the salient features and goals of each of the main
components of the project.
17
2. To indicate the broad revised estimated cost of the DPR with
the main componentwise breakup. (Earlier estimate was Rs.
84.0 Crore.)
3. To indicate a broad timeframe for projectformulation and
implementation of each of the main components of the DPR.
(Considering interrelated /interdependent issues preferably in
the form of pert chart).
4. To suggest various DPRrelated aspects and new studies, as
not covered during prefeasibility and six specific studies.
5. To suggest a broad methodology as well identify potential
agencies/ organizations/institutions for taking up each of the
new identified studies including studies for the Tsunami effect
and seismic effect on the Kalpasar Project.
6. To suggest institutional arrangements to be put in place for
processing, evaluation and finalization of the studies.
7. To identify the critically important issues/areas of “concerns”
for formulation and implementation of the Project.
8. To suggest the strategic planning for “ontime” completion of
formulation and execution of the Project.
9. To suggest the strategic planning for financing the project
implementation as well as to suggest the form and financial
arrangement to be made for the project in “Post
implementation” stage.
10. To suggest an appropriate strategy of planning to optimize the
utilization of the expected benefits (including water resources
availability) of the project.
11. To provide the historical information of global experience on
the phenomenon of stratification of fresh and saline waters as
similar to Kalpasar Lake.
12. To suggest the areas of training and specialization of
staff/officers of Kalpasar Department for successful
implementation of the Project.
13. To suggest suitable strategy to bring the Kalpasar Project
within the public information domain, both nationally and
internationally.
18
14. Phasing of Kalpasar project should also be examined keeping
in view the finance and technical aspects of project.
19.2 The EAG also decided that the “Quarterly” Actions Taken
Report (ATR) on the decisions/recommendations of the EAG
will be prepared by the Department and the same will be sent
to the Chairman and Members of the EAG by the Secretary of
the Department under intimation of the Chairman, Core Group
of the Kalpasar Project.
19.3 At the end of meeting, it was decided that next EAG meeting
will be held, 812 January 2007, which should include a visit
to the project area. The meeting was concluded by the
Chairman with his personal thanks to the EAG Members,
Secretary, Kalpasar Department and officials and special
invitees for their valuable and positive contributions during
the two days’ of constructive deliberations.
19