10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL, U.S, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. DEPOSITION OF: JUDSON P. DEERE Thursday, March 3, 2022 Washington, D.C. The deposition in the above matter was held in room 4480, O'Neill House Office Building, commencing at 10:06 a.m. Present: Representatives Aguilar and Murphy.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 2 23 24 25 Appearances: For the SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL: HR 514°" associate 11 STIGATIVE COUNSEL 514 associate (MIE SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL (MR SEN108 INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL (MY CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL MR WV estIGATIVE COUNSEL (Ec +16F ERK [EVV ESTIGATIVE COUNSEL [ES °20F SIONAL STAFF MEMBER PER 111 Ad Munistrarive oFFicer |g SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL [MEE 0 COUNSEL TO THE VICE CHAIR For THE WITNESS: CHRISTOPHER BARTOLOMUCCI BRIAN FIELD KRISTINA ROBINSONSchaerr Jaffe LLP 1717 KStN.W. Suite 900 Washington, D.C. 2000610 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 2 23 24 25 HE) Good morning. This is a deposition of Mr. Judson Deere conducted by the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, pursuant to House Resolution 503 At this time, I'd like to ask the witness to please state his full name and spell his, last name for the record. ‘The Witness. Judson Porter Deere. Last name is D, double E, r-e. HR 11's will be a staff-ted interview. My name is III I'm a senior investigative counsel for the select committee, and also have the additional title of being of counsel to the committee's vice chair, Representative Liz Cheney. And I will let the other staff introduce themselves. EE Vy 2me is EE 'm an investigative counsel for the select committee ME Get. Hy 02e is 2 professional staff member with the select committee. HE. Scere, I'm the chief investigative counsel Thanks for being here. T° could counsel introduce themselves, and Ill ask at least Mr. Bartolomucci to spell his last name, because it's not easy. Mr. Bartolomucci. Yes, My name is Christopher Bartolomucci, B-a-t-t-o-l-o-m-u-c-c-i, and I'm with the Schaerr Jaffe law firm here in D.C. Mr. Field. Hi, Good morning. My name is Brian Field, I'm also with Schaerr Jaffe.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 ; | So members of the select committee may be j during this deposition, My understanding is, right now, they may have some votes on ing us and leaving the floor. So there are no members with us at this time. We will try to keep an eye on the video screen to see when their names come up, and we'll try to mention that for the record when they join us. We probably will not mention when they leave just because it's hard to keep track of. This will be a staff-led deposition, but we'll pause throughout to give members an. opportunity to ask questions as well if they'd like to do so. At this time — actually, Ill cover a few ground rules before we swear in the witness, This is a deposition that is being held in executive session, That means that it is not public at this time, but it can -- the transcript as well as the video and audio recording can be made public at the will of the chairman of the committee. You, though, are free to discuss it publicly if you so choose. So I'll go ahead now and have the witness sworn in, If you could raise your right hand. The Reporter. Do you solemnly declare and affirm under the penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? The Witness. Ido. The Reporter. Thank you: HEE So. before we get started with the questions, I'l go over a few additional ground rules. As you know, there is an official reporter transcribing the record of the deposition. _ It's also being videotaped The transcript is technically the official record of the proceeding. If you're10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 interested, we can make the transcript draft available for you and your counsel to review in person and identify any errors that you notice. As you know, it's important to make sure we have a clean transcript, so, if we ask a question, try to wait until the question is finished before you give an answer. Obviously those who are making the transcript can only record verbal responses, so they can't record if you just shake or nod your head. So please try to give a verbal, audible response to every question. We also want to make sure you understand the questions. So, if a question is not clear, please say so. As you know, you're under oath. That means that any false statement you make knowingly would constitute perjury and a violation of 18 U.S.C. 1001, so it's important that you tell the truth at all times. If you don't know the answer to the question, obviously you can say that or, if you don't recall, you can say that. But you do have to answer truthfully. So, if you do recall or do know the answer, then you can't say you don't know or don't recall, You can only refuse to answer a question to preserve a privilege that's recognized by the select committee. If you refuse to answer a question based on a privilege, the staff can either proceed with the deposition, or seek a ruling of the chair on the objection. If you need to consult with your counsel at any time or just need a break, we would be happy to accommodate. So you or your counsel can speak up at any time. And, as we progress, we'll offer you the opportunity to take breaks as we go along. So do you have any questions, or does your counsel have any questions about any of this before we begin? The Witness. Nope. Mr. Bartolomucci. No.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 ME ce: EXAMINATION | Q Okay. If you look first in the binder of materials that you and your counsel have been given at exhibit 30, you should see there a subpoena from the House select committee as well as a cover letter and a schedule. Do you understand that you're appearing today pursuant to that subpoena? A Yes. Q Okay. Part of the subpoena required you to produce documents, which you have done, Did you or your counsel search for records that were responsive to the subpoena schedule? A Yes. Q__ Have you produced to the select committee all the documents and communications in your possession, custody, or control that you have been able to identify as responsive to the subpoena? Mr. Bartolomucei, Could | jump in there? Counsel - Mr. Bartolomucci. -- obviously assisted with that process, so we -- we produced all the documents that we judged to be responsive to the subpoena, and withheld no documents based on any privilege. TER Great. Thank you very much a Q__Sol'm going to ask you a few questions now about your use of email accounts and personal cell phone records and things like that.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 First of all, | assume, when you worked at the White House, you had a White House email account, Is that correct? A Yes. Q And, to your knowledge, were all those emails preserved and in the control of the National Archives at this time? A To the best of my knowledge. Q Okay. Did you also have a personal email account during the time that you worked at the White House? A Yes. Q Okay. Did you use that personal email account for any official business? Not that | recall Q Okay. Have you searched that personal email account, or have your attorneys searched that personal email account to see if there are any responsive records? A Yes. Q And then did you have a White House-issued cell phone? A Yes. Q And did you also have a personal cell phone? A Yes. Q_— Soyou've produced some text messages, which | believe were from your personal cell phone. Is that correct? A Yes. Q And, with regard to your official cell phone, or your White House-issued cell phone, do you remember whether you sent and received texts from that cell phone? A Yes.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 Q Okay. And did you turn that cell phone in to somebody at the White House when you left? A Yes. Q Okay. Do you still have access or copies of any of those text messages? A No. Q Okay. So, as far as you know, those would be with the National Archives? A To the best of my knowledge. Q Did you ever send or receive text messages directly with President Trump himself? A Electronic text messages? Q Yes. A No. Q Okay. Do you know whether President Trump sent or received text messages while he served as President? A {donot know. Q Okay. Did you use any other devices besides email accounts we've just talked about, two cell phones -- well, this would be, | guess, included within cell phones ~ anything besides text messages? Did you use any kind of communications apps like Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp, any of those types of things? A Not for official purposes. Q_ Okay. Did you keep any handwritten or electronic notes while you were working at the White House? A Handwritten notes, yes. Okay. And do you know where those are today? Do you have them, or are they left at the White House?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 10 A I mean, certainly there would have been, you know, documents that | prepared that would have been saved on my computer that would be with National Archives. You know, handwritten notes would have been --if they were applicable to Presidential records, they would have been left behind. have searched through notebooks that | took with me that were just - you might call daily to-do lists that | kept. None of those were responsive to the committee's request. Q Okay. And handwritten notes, whether they were in notepads or anything like that, do you recall what you did with those when you left the White House? A Put them ina box. Q Okay. Do you know where that -- where that box went? A To the best of my knowledge, to National Archives, Q Does anybody have any questions about any of that before | move on? Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about your professional background? So maybe just start with when you graduated from college and each of the jobs that you had since college. A Graduated from college in 2010, began employment with the State Republican Party of Arkansas as a field director for the 2010 campaign. When that concluded, | moved to D.C. and began work with Senator John Boozman's office as correspondence and systems director. In 2012, | began employment with Senator Mike Crapo's office, first as new media director, and then subsequently, about -- approximately a year later, assumed the roles of press secretary and digital director. In April 2014, | returned to Arkansas to join the Tim Griffin for Arkansas campaign10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 1 as deputy campaign manager and communications director. When the campaign ended, | began employment with the Office of Arkansas Attorney General Leslie Rutledge ~- that would have been January of 2015 -- where | remained until November of 2017, when | moved back to Washington to begin employment at the White House. Had three different jobs at the White House, first as director of State communications; then was special assistant to the President and director of media affairs; and then, finally, deputy assistant to the President and deputy press secretary. Q And roughly when did you become deputy press secretary? A Approximately November or December of 2018. Q And to whom did you report when you started that position? ‘A Sarah Huckabee Sanders. Q Okay. And who took her place? A Stephanie Grisham. Okay. And who took Ms. Grisham's place? A Kayleigh McEnany. Q And when did you leave the White House? A January 20, 2021. Q And what have you been doing since then? A Deputy chief of staff for communications for U.S. Senator Bill Hagerty. Q Sol want to focus now on your -- your position as deputy press secretary. Can you just tell us in general what your roles and responsibilities were? A _lassisted the press secretary in various media relations capacities; spoke on behalf of the President when needed; traveled with the President; communicated with him to ensure that, you know, the items that he wanted communicated publicly, that | was aware of, fielded media inquiries via in person, electronically; and managed a team10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 2 of three press assistants. Q And who were the three press assistants? Well, and we'll focus here -- let's focus ~ since it may have changed over time, let's focus on from the November 2020 election until you left on January 20, 2021. ‘A Margo Martin, Gaby Hurt, Davis Ingle. Q And President Trump was certainly well-known for having a large Twitter following until his account was eventually suspended. Did you have any role in his tweets in your capai as deputy press secretary? A Could you be more specific? You mean in a role in drafting, or — Q___ Drafting, reviewing, editing, any of that. Or, if it's easier, just you can tell us how the process worked for issuing a Presidential tweet and then work into that what role, if any, you had in it A I would say drafting on occasion. Q Okay. Were you included in any kind of regular review process if somebody else drafted the tweets? A No. Q Okay. Who other than the President himself had primary responsibility for the Twitter account? A Dan Scavino. Q Okay. And he was not part of the press operation. Is that correct? Did he have a separate line of reporting? A I believe, in the time period that you referenced earlier, at that time, he would have been deputy chief of staff for communications. Q Uh-huh ‘A | guess technically on an org chart, he might have overseen the entire global10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 13 operation. But, in terms of did | directly report to him or was he involved in day-to-day operations of the press team, no. Q Okay. And it sounds like you were not involved as a regular matter in reviewing or preparing tweets for the President; only occasionally, you would draft them: Is that correct? A Correct Q And we're going to get later to January 6th, but were you involved in either drafting, reviewing, or editing any of the President's tweets on January 6, 2021? A Kayleigh and | had discussions about ~ about overall messaging that afternoon. Did I specifically have a hand in drafting or writing what he ultimately put, out? No, Q Allright. We'll - we'll come back to January 6th, Just in terms of overall messaging for the White House, how involved was President Trump in the day-to-day messaging strategy for the White House? A The President set the day-to-day messaging. Okay. And what was that process? Was there a regular process where he was given recommendations from somebody and then would approve, or how did that work? A Whatever the President wanted the message to be that day, that was the message of the day. Q So does that mean that there was not sort of a regular formal process for setting the message each day? A Ifyou're asking if there was a check-in with the President or a meeting with the President every morning to determine what the message of the day was, no, there was not.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 14 GR efore you leave the org chart, can | just jump in? i > vs Q So, when you indicate you were deputy press secretary, does that mean you were the -- sort of the principal deputy or the immediate number two to Ms. McEnany, or were there other people like you who were deputies? A I never had the title of principal deputy. But, at the time that Kayleigh assumed her duties, | was the most senior person in the press shop ~ Q Ise. A ~-and had been there the longest. There were two other colleagues of mine that also shared responsibilities of deputy press secretary. Q Who were the other two during the -- sort of the end period that J referenced earlier? A Sarah Matthews and Brian Morgenstern. Q Ise. And did you and Ms. Matthews and Mr. Morgenstern divide up the press portfolio and have different areas of responsibility, or just tell us a little bit more sort of how the press office was organized. AI would say that, in the timeframe that we're talking about, no, we didn't, have a good structure of division of labor. Q Uh-huh, A For the most part, | handled all incoming inquiries. And things that | needed assistance with, | would delegate to the other two. Q Ise. And it was it~ since you had been there the longest, you had relationships with members of the White House press corps? They would reach out to10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 15, you directly? | get a sense that a lot of this comes down to those individual relationships. Is that accurate? A Yes. QQ Uh-huh A Since you asked the question about responsibilities and | mentioned the timeframe, in a different timeframe in the press office, we did have a more structured division of labor and responsibilities in terms of policy portfolios and if an ifan inquiry came in on X topic Q Right. A ~-if that's not my topic, | would assign it to somebody else. Q Ise. That's interesting. Just to help us understand how things evolved, tell us a little bit more about that structure that preceded before the timeframe, A Honestly, what changed that structure was the pandemic. Q Isee. > The pandemic and changes in personnel. Q_ Yeah. ‘A When Kayleigh came in and the pandemic was ongoing, predominantly all of the requests that we were getting at that point was COVID related — Q Yeah. A --with very few on other topics. Q__ Kind of became the issue that people wanted to talk about, | suppose? A Yes. Q Okay. And, in terms of personnel change, is it fair to say that there was a fair amount of turnover over the course of your time in the press shop, like a lot of deputies and a lot of press assistants kind of cycled through those roles?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 16 ‘A guess it depends on your definition of "a lot.” Q Yeah. It's an unfair question, | think. A I mean, |--I worked under three different press secretaries. Q_ Yeah. A I guess, in total, | had five or six different deputies that | worked alongside. QQ Uh-huh, A There were also three assistant press secretaries that didn't directly report tome. QQ Uh-huh, A But certainly they were colleagues, and | worked with them. Q Uh-huh, A And | would say that the three press assistants were fairly consistent with the exception of -- at least during my time there, with the exception of one, which | had to replace while | was there. Q Ise. Okay. And then, just to finish this, just in terms of the org chart, | have a sense that, communications, and particularly digital, was kind of its own separate entity that Mr. Scavino ran that was kind of parallel to the press office? Is that accurate? A I would -- | would ~ best way to describe that is it's ~ it's the same house, but it's two different sides of the house. Q Ise. A Press was on one side. Communications was on the other. Q Uh-huh. A You might even say that digital was on the second floor or --| mean, i all one house, but it's kind of three different silos.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 7 Q Okay. Andis there a person in the org chart who sort of has overall responsibility for both sides of the house, for digital and communications and press? A Isthere a specific time period we're talking about? Q_ Yeah. | guess maybe it did change. | guess sort of best case or how it's supposed to work or how it worked for the -- most of the time that you were there. Is. there like a director of communications to whom —- A 1--well,I'l--I'lldo it this way. From the time Stephanie Grisham was press secretary and communications director — Q Uh-huh, A ~she oversaw the entire house ~ Got Q A ~the three different silos. Q Okay. ‘A When Kayleigh was brought in, that was when ~ around the same time that Mr. Seavino assumed the role of deputy chief of staff for communications. Q Uh-huh, A So he would have been the one that oversaw the entire house. Q__Isee. So press reported technically up to the director - deputy chief of staff for communications, Mr. Scavino? A Technically. Q_ Okay. And then, just finally on this - and I'm sorry to interrupt you~ the sort of back and forth between the digital -- the social media, Mr. Scavino, and his team, and press was -- would you just give us a better sense as to whether those were siloed separate entities doing their own thing every day, or whether there was coordination over, "Hey, we're getting this inquiry, we need to put out this tweet"? Was it an10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 18 integrated unit, or was it sort of two different units that are working more in parallel? A |would ~-| would say that it was ~ it was integrated. It wasn't ~ Q Uh-huh. A ~siloed off, but it was integrated where it needed to be. Like | didn't 1 didn't necessarily let digital folks know that | was getting inquiries on X,Y, or Z. Q Uh-huh. A But, if there was - if there was a policy rollout of some kind -- Q Yeah. A ~then certainly everyone was read in and aware of responsibilities. Q__Isee. Sot sort of depended on the issue? Yes. Q Understood. Okay, WR Thank you. ‘The Witness. Uh-huh. ‘a Q Soe understand that Kayleigh McEnany, in addition to her White House role, during her free time, also had sort of an informal role speaking on behalf of the Trump campaign, so frequently, in the evening, appearing on FOX News and other places. Is that correct? ‘A You would have to ask Kayleigh what her role is, but I'm aware that she appeared on FOX News in the evenings. As far as if that was an arranged relationship between her and the campaign, | --| can't speak to that. Q Did you have any role in the President's 2020 campaign? A Not officially Q Okay. Did you have an unofficial role of any kind?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 19 A I mean, if -if you're asking if | - when he would travel to rallies, did | attend rallies in my official capacity as part of a deputy press secretary position for the President of the United States, then yes. Was I speaking on behalf of him as a candidate or for the Trump campaign? No. Q Okay. Were you involved in any coordination of messaging between the White House and the President's 2020 reelection campaign? A Well, the Hatch Act would have prohibited me from coordinating on messaging between the White House and the campaign, but | was certainly aware of their day-to-day messaging. Q Okay. And you mentioned the Hatch Act. Is it -- what was your understanding — and, again, we're talking from November 3, 2020, to January 20, 2021. What was your understanding of what the White House press office could talk about with regard to challenges to the outcome of the 2020 election versus what were kind of considered off limits for White House press officials? A Certainly, if it ~ if it had anything to do -- if it had anything to do with Donald Trump as a candidate, be it encouraging people to vote for him for X, ¥, or Z reason, or dealing with lawsuits after the election or allegations of fraud in certain States, all of that would have been handled by the campaign Q Okay. And did you have any involvement in any of that? A Inwhat way? Q Any involvement in developing any messaging regarding the topics you just discussed. So challenges to the outcome of the 2020 election, allegations of fraud related to the 2020 election, things like that. A {don't recall it if | was. Q Okay. Now, as! understand, Ms. McEnany, though, in her capacity as press10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 20 secretary, you know, would be prepared for questions that could come from reporters regarding some of these topics after the election. Did you have any role in sort of helping prepare her briefing papers or things like that in the event she got questions about allegations of election fraud or the outcome of the 2020 election? A | was not involved in the day-to-day prep of her notebook. Q Okay. Who was? It would have been the research team staff. Q And do you remember their names? A Group of eleven. Q Okay. I won't make you name all of them. Do you know whether there was anybody in particular who was working on Ms. McEnany's briefing papers or other materials related to possible questions regarding the 2020 election? A {don't recall specifically if there was someone handling that topic, if that's what you're asking. Q Yes, thatis. Okay. Okay. If you can look in your binder at exhibit 1 -- and | believe this is an example of what | was just talking about -- this, | believe, was produced from the National Archives. If you look at page 2, the heading says: Ballots. We believe, but tell me if you have any reason to think this is incorrect -- we believe this is from Kayleigh McEnany's briefing binders that she would use for press conferences. Does that look like what this document is? A Yes.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 21 Q Okay. So this one, as | said, has the heading of ballots. First bullet starts with Barr, which | believe is a reference to Attorney General Bill Barr. It absolutely opens the floodgates to fraud. Do you know who was involved in helping prepare this particular briefing paper? A Doyou have a date? Q —Idon't, And ~ but, if it- if you know who worked on this over time because | imagine this may have been a document that was updated from time to time — if you know people worked on it at different times, just tell us what ~ what you can recall A 1-1 don't recall who -- until reviewing exhibits to prepare for this, | ~ I don't recall seeing this specific document. Q Okay. A But it does --it does look similar to what would have been in her briefing ~ her briefing binder. Q Okay. If you look at exhibit 2 -- and this looks like it's excerpts from a statement from President Trump. It says: White House news conference, September 23, 2020. He said: We're going to have to see what happens. You know that I've been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are a disaster. Looks like the question isn't in here, but I'll represent to you that he was asked: Do you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transfer of power? And the President responded, as you can see here in the document: Get rid of the ballots, and you'll have a very peaceful - there won't be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation. The ballots are out of control. You know it, and you know who knows it better than anybody else. The Democrats know it better than anybody else,10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 2 end quote. Do you know if anybody was involved in preparing any materials or talking points or oral briefing of the President to prepare for questions like that? A If you're asking if we did ~- if we did prep sessions with him before a press conference, yes. Q Okay. And do you recall whether a question along those lines was part of the prep session? A don't recall if that was a question, Q Did you have any conversations or witness any conversations with the President after he made that statement regarding what he said in that statement? A don't recall. Q Okay. If you look at tab 3, and if you look at the second page, the heading is accept, a . This looks to us like it's another excerpt or tab from one of Kayleigh McEnany's binders that she used to prepare for press conferences, Does it look like that to you? A It's what it appears. Q Okay. So you can see the top of that second page says: POTUS, oh, | know, | know, yeah, | know, we want to get rid of the ballots, and you'll have a very trans -- we'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation. The ballots are out of control. You know it - which appears to be ~ that's the end of the quote — appears to be a quote of something the President had already said And then it looks like here there is, you know, material that Ms. McEnany could use if asked about that, |s that what this document appears to be to you? A Again, | didn't prepare the document that -- but that is what it appears.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 23 Q Okay. And the two major headings are: Clinton failed to accept results of the election, and Stacey Abrams failed to accept the results of her election. So you said you didn't prepare it Do you know who did? A don't, Q Were you involved in any conversations about whether the President would or would not accept the results of the November 2020 election? In other words, any conversations about whether the President would or would not concede that he lost the November 2020 election? Mr. Bartolomucci, ‘Are you asking about conversations with anybody? HE With anybody, yes. The Witness. Yes — Q Okay. Were you involved in any such conversations with the President? A Yes, but | don't recall a specific date or — Q Okay. A ~time period, Q_— That's understandable. But tell us what you can recall, to the best of your recollection. A He ~I mean, | think you all know from public reporting that he was very concerned about fraud and believed that -- believed that, in some places, the election had been rigged, and he was not prepared to concede. Q And did you have multiple conversations with him on this topic, or is there just one in particular that you're recalling? A No. It--ittcame up multiple times when | was around. Q Okay. Do you recall whether anybody during any of those conversations10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 24 advised the President that he should concede the election? a office or -- A = Do Q A Q Yes. Who was that? | would have been one of those people after mid-December. Okay. Who else? | don't recall specifically who else. Were -- do you remember whether there were others? There were, Okay. And do you remember whether they were people from the press | don't recall specifically who — Okay. -- but there were others. Do you recall whether Kayleigh McEnany took that position? I don't recall. Do you recalll whether Mark Meadows took that position? I don't recall. Do you recall whether Ivanka Trump took that position? I don't recall. Do you recalll whether Jared Kushner took that position? I don't recall. Was Vice President Mike Pence in any of these conversations? Not in my presence. Okay. Do you ~ | know you said there were multiple of these conversations, but tell us who you can remember being in any of those conversations10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 25, besides you and the President. ‘A Like | said, |-- | can remember being in the room when others encouraged him to do this, but | don't recall specifically who suggested this or who encouraged him to doit. Ido remember that | encouraged him to do it at least once after the electoral college met in mid-December. Q Okay. So the electoral college, | believe, met December 14th. Do you remember roughly how long it was after that that you encouraged the President to concede? A don't recall specifically. Okay. Was it in the Oval Office? 1 don't remember the location. Q_— Okay. What can you remember about what you said? - [told him that my personal viewpoint was that the electoral college had met, which is the system that our country is ~ is set under to elect a President and Vice President, and | believed at that point that the means for him to pursue litigation was probably closed. Q And do you remember saying anything else to him about it? A Not specifically, no. Q And do you recall what his response, if any, was? A He disagreed. Q Okay. To the best of your recollection, what did he say? A He--he just disagreed and reiterated the points | said earlier and expressed that he intended to continue with challenges and litigation. | don't --| don't recall this specific conversation mentioning January 6th or Congress’ role, but -- but certainly he indicated that he intended to continue to pursue10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 26 legal challenges. Q Okay. So you recall him discussing litigation. You don't recall specifically him referencing January 6 or Congress, correct? A Notin this conversation. Q _Doyou remember him discussing it at a later conversation? A No. Q Okay. Do you remember him discussing it in an earlier conversation? No. Q Do you remember whether he discussed getting State officials, whether secretaries of state, sort of Governors or State legislatures to try to change the slate of electors sent by their States? A 've never heard him discuss that. Q Okay. I'm sure you're familiar with a phone call that he had ~- the President, that is — had with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger because it was recorded and then later, you know, played in the news. Did you have any conversations with the President about his call with Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger? A Not that | recall you have any -- you looked like yeah. HE — you had some questions. HE 6st 2 couple, yeah. ' ay Q So, at any point, Mr. Deere, from the election in November through the time that you left in January, did the President ever say anything that suggested he10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 7 acknowledged that he had lost ~ "I can't believe | lost" - or express any statement that would suggest an awareness of the fact that he had lost? A The word "lost," no, but certainly he ~he left on January 20th, so Q Sure. A --had to acknowledge it in some way. Q understand that, but ~ and | don't want to put | don't mean to ask a specific question about the word "lost," but did he say anything during this entire period that would suggest kind of an acknowledgement of sorts that he was leaving, that he had lost, that these efforts, litigation or otherwise, had not worked? ‘A Atsome point around the final several days that we were there, sometime between Friday and the Tuesday or Wednesday that we departed, he acknowledged to me that we collectively had done a lot, and that he was proud of the work that had been done. Q_— Meaning we had done a lot over the course of the administration on matters of policy? A Ub-huh, Q Ise. Okay. But ~ and did he ever say anything about the election specifically that suggested an acknowledgement of defeat or of a loss? A Not that I recall Q Atany time? A Again, not that I recall or in my presence. Q Yeah. And 1--| understand you can only talk about the things that were in your presence. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether there was an evolution here. The discussion you just referenced to IM, where you said it's time to concede, the10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 28 electoral college has met, and he said: | disagree. Was that his consistently held position whenever this topic came up with you, or was ~ did it vacillate, or did it vary over time? A I don't recall it - it evolving. Q Uh-huh. _ Did you ever hear from others that he had made such statements indicating a different position than the one he articulated to you at that meeting that PE :¥cs vou about? A In-in the week after the election, there was gossip around the building that -- that he was considering conceding. Q Yeah. ‘A And even that -- even strongly considering inviting the President-elect and the incoming First Lady to the White House. Q = Yeah. We've heard similar -- more than gossip, but that there was some discussion immediately after the election about a more sort of traditional transfer of power and a meeting with the -- tell me more what you heard about that and from whom A don't recall from whom I heard it, but, as I said, it was gossip around the building. Q Yeah. A And being the Deputy Press Secretary in charge of ensuring that the protected press pool always has access to him — Q Uh-huh. A --|was very inclined to hear more about if the President-elect and the incoming First Lady would be making a visit. Q Okay. Do you remember anybody sharing with you, hey, the President's,10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 29 you know, ready to meet with Biden, or the President said this, or the President said ~ and, again, | understand you weren't ~ President may not have said this to you, but things that you may have heard he said? A Again, the only thing | heard was gossip indicating that he was strongly considering it. Q Uh-huh. When you, Mr. Deere, gave him the advice that you did after the electoral college, was that based -- | guess tell me what it was based on. Was that based on sort of press advice, about it's time for you to start talking about all the victories of the last 4 years as a press strategy, or was it based on, hey, there is no more practical ability to change this once the electoral college had met, or both? A Both, Q Uh-huh, A Personally, | felt, again, that the electoral college ~ when the electoral college meets and -- and gives its vote, that's the system that we have, and | felt it important that he know my personal viewpoint on that privately. But, then, also, with that in mind, knowing that, at that point, we basically had approximately 30 days left in office, that, yes, | wanted him to spend the next 30 days talking about the 4 years of unprecedented accomplishments. Q Right. Rather than the election, relitigating what occurred. Was that good press advice in your view -- "Hey, you should be talking about the record, not the election"? A I think it's good advice, but it was the advice I gave. Q —lunderstand. Did other people share that advice or share that ~ share that perspective, the one you just articulated? "Hey, talk about your record"?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 30 ‘A That we ought to be talking about our record? Q Yes. A Yes. Q Who? A Certainly Kayleigh. Q Uh-huh. ‘A Other junior staff in the building that -- you know, executive assistants, people who, I'll call it, do grunt work. QQ Uh-huh, A Ivanka Trump. Q Uh-huh, A Larry Kudlow, Chris Liddell. Those are the ones that come to mind, but then I-- | certainly heard from ~ from other assistants to the President that Cabinet members wanted to do the same thing Q Yes. Isee, And do you know that, Mr. Deere, from - that those people shared the view because they told you that? Do you know whether or not they told the President that? Tell us more about those other folks that were sort of in your camp, “Hey, talk about your record." How do you know that, and do you know whether they conveyed it to him? A I don't recall specifically who shared with me that -- that they had encouraged the President to do the same, but, yes, several of ~ of them who | just mentioned had indicated that they had encouraged the President to do the same. Q_ Ise. Okay. Who was on the other side, if you know? Were there other people on the White House staff or externally who were saying quite the opposite ~ "Keep fighting, this10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 31 election was rigged, you should never concede" -- you know, things along those lines? ‘AI can't speak to people on the outside or people that | wasn't around ina room with ~ Q —_tunderstand A ~- that -- I don't recall being in a conversation in the room with the President and somebody else who was encouraging him to keep fighting or — Q Yeah. A ~ continue contesting the election, Q Okay. When you encouraged him to stop fighting and talk about the record, were you mindful of other voices that were giving him contrary advice? A Certainly, | suppose, yes. Q And who would -- were you aware of were in that category of those giving him the contrary advice, whether they were inside the White House or on the campaign, lawyers, otherwise? In other words, who did you think, Mr. Deere, was sort of on the other side of this issue in terms of influence on the President? A Certainly | wasn't happy with the ~ what I ~ well, with -- with the advice | knew he was getting from the likes of Rudy Giulian Q Uh-huh. A ~Sidney Powell ~ Q Yeah. A ~Jenna Ellis. Q — Ub-huh. A Iwasn't in the room when he received this advice, but -— Uh-huh, =o -- based on conversations from people who | knew were in the room --10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 32 Q Uh-huh. A ~1was not happy with what | was hearing. Q__Isee. So your understanding is he was getting the advice to keep fighting from the legal team ~ from Giuliani, from Powell, from Ellis. And were you not happy with that because it was bad press strategy or because it was wrong, or -- or just sort of not supported by facts? Or tell me more about why you thought it was wrong. A Well, again, | -- | believe the President had every right to pursue every legal avenue he wanted to until the electoral college met. Q Right. A Atthat point in time, I personally felt like he had exhausted all legal options, and, you know, it was — it was time to turn the page. Q Yeah. A Was that a right press strategy? Q Yeah. A He didn't he didn't take my advice, so, you know, would the press have treated him differently ifhe had? Doubtful. Q Uh-huh. It sounds like your view was not, "Hey," just in terms of effective communications, "you should stop talking about this"? It was more: Wetried. We filed 62 lawsuits. Electoral college has met. It's over. It's time to move on. | mean, | don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm hearing you say your assessment was that this was the ~ the right thing based on the ~- the facts and what had occurred. A Correct. Q Uh-huh. Allright. Anyone else in that category beyond those three lawyers that you think was -- was a voice of keep fighting, contrary to your perspective,10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 33 even if it's not someone who told you directly, but you heard gossip, was sort of pushing him in the other direction? ‘A Again, gossip was ~- was that the chief was not helping -- the chief of staff was — was not helping close the book on this. That the chief may have been on the side of the lawyers, not on the side of ~ A Well, 've never spoken with the chief of staff about this, so | don't want to put words in his mouth. Q Got A Gossip around the building was that ~- that he was encouraging the President to also talk about accomplishments, but to also not give up the fight. Q Got Do you remember who you heard that from? Anybody that worked directly for the chief? A Not that | recall specifically. Q Do you remember talking to Cassidy Hutchinson or Ben Williamson or Chris, Liddell or others that worked directly for the chief about the chief's position on all of this? A Not that I recall Q Okay. And anything more specific about that gossip, like what — the source of it? A No. Q Okay. Last question on this. In your view, during this period of time, who were the people that had ~ that the President trusted the most, or that, in your view, were most influential to him? A That's a difficult question to answer. Q Yeah. It's abit speculative. I grant you that. But did you have a sense as.34 to, hey, whose word he really listens to? Mr. Bartolomucci The Witness. Yeah. |--I don't know that I can answer that. HR 02.. okay. tappreciateit. Thank you. If you know. questions. I~ I'm not going to try and restate the question, but | think the question was who else had sort of a similar view to yours. Do you recall which Cabinet members you had heard had a similar view to yours?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 2 23 24 25 35, [11:04 am.] The Witness. Names that I recall being mentioned to me that wanted to talk about accomplishments included Secretary Mnuchin, Ambassador Lighthizer, Secretary Chao, Administrator Wheeler, Secretary Bernhardt, Secretary Pompeo, Acting Secretary Wolf. | Q — Doyou remember whether Secretary Scalia was one of them? A Not specifically. Q What about Attorney General Barr before he left? A Not specifically. Q Okay. Acting Attorney General Jeff Rosen? A Not specifically. TE 0 100k like you have a question. TR tually before | turn to you~ fe Go right ahead. _ Q You listed several Cabinet members. Did you hear all that from primarily one person or did you have a lot of different people that you heard it from? ‘A No. As|indicated, there were several people in the building who felt the same way! did. Those were the names that | recall hearing from several individuals. Q Did you hear it from any of those Cabinet members directly? A Not that | recall Q Did you hear whether any of those Cabinet members expressed their view directly to the President?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 36 A {don't know. HER 60 ateas. a Q — Sowith respect to these conversations that you had with the President in which he discussed whether or not he would concede, | understand that you may not be able to recall all of the specifics, but do you have a sense of roughly how many of these conversations you participated in; fewer than five? More than five? More than ten? ‘A Where | had a conversation with him about encouraging him to concede, or that we needed to turn the page? Q Correct, you personally. A Less than five. Q Do you have a rough sense of how often these conversations were happening in total, including the ones that you didn't participate in? A | have no idea, Q_ With respect to the ones that you did participate in, do you have a rough sense of when they happened chronologically? A Atleast one would have been before Christmas, and at least one other one after January 6th. Q Okay. Do you recall any conversations with the President on this issue before the election? A Before the election? No. Q Do you recall hearing anything about conversations with the President where he discussed whether or not he would concede that took place before the election? A No.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 37 Q_— When you communicated to the President after December 14th that you thought he should concede, why did you think it was important to convey your views on this to him? A Well, again, as | think | stated earlier, we elect our President and Vice President using an electoral college. The electoral college had met and voted, and | felt like, at that point in time, it was incumbent upon the sitting President to recognize the situation, to recognize that we had lost, and to turn his attention towards the transition and departure. Q Was it your impression that President Trump wouldn't take those steps unless people were conveying this sort of advice to him? A I'msorry. | don't know if | follow the question. Q You know, absent receiving the kind of advice that you delivered to the President, was it your sense that he wouldn't have done that? Mr. Field, Just for the sake of the record, object on form and vagueness. I'm not sure what "that" is you're referring to. ‘The Witness. Yeah, | don't know that | can speak to ~ don't know that | can speak so what is in the President's mind at that point. a sve | don't have anything further. ©. a Q _Sogoing back to your view that once the electoral college met on December 14th and voted that you --I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you essentially thought that the election was over at that point. Implicit in that, it sounds like you did not think that January 6th and the joint session of Congress10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 38 was an opportunity to change the outcome of the election. Can you explain why? A I mean, no, | didn't think that it was an opportunity. I don't know that | had any legal basis or understanding for why it wasn't. | just didn't personally think that it was. Q And was that that you didn't think Congress had the power to change the ‘outcome of the election, or you just didn't think it would be the right thing to do, or what was your reason for that? A No, | don't think that Congress has the power to change the outcome of an election. | think that the electoral college has met, and that is the election, Q And, si larly, did you think that the Vice President on his own had the power to change the outcome of the election? ‘A My personal viewpoint, again, without any legal basis for it, no, | don't think the Vice President has the power to change the outcome of an election. Q wher «2: asking you about conversations with the President, | think you mentioned that one of them occurred after January 6th. Can you tell us what you recall about that conversation? A Again, | don't recall the specific date, other than | know that it was after January 6th, and it, again, was me encouraging the President to talk about policy, accomplishments, as well as acknowledge that we were finished, that we were leaving. Q And why did you feel the need to give him that advice? A I don't recall the specifics of the conversation, but | was a deputy assistant to the President, Deputy Press Secretary, and I - Q Well, was the context that he appeared to be considering taking a different approach?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 39 A I don't recall the full context of the conversat n. | just recall what | told him. Q And do you recall roughly when that was? A {twas around the time that we traveled to the border, | think on January 13th, which would have been the last official trip that he took before departing on January 20th. Q Do you recall where you were when you had that conversation? ‘A believe | was on Air Force One. Q Do you recall who else was participating in the conversation? A Other than the President, no. Q — Wasit just the two of you alone? A believe it was just the two of us alone, Okay. And what was his response? A If recall, he acknowledged that we were going to talk about the border and the wall and immigration today and that he would consider talking about other things because others had encouraged him to do the same. Q__Didhe indicate whether he planned to continue to talk about the 2020 election? A He didn't indicate one way or the other. Q — Canyou recall anything else about that conversation related to the 2020 election? A Not that I recall ' as Q Did he continue to talk about the election being stolen? Judd, you don't understand, they stole it. You know, anything along those lines expressing -- regardless10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 40 of what he was going to do, expressing a personal belief about the election? A He talked about that a lot. | don't recall ifit specifically was addressed in that conversation. Q Okay. Did he continue to talk about that after January 6th — A Yes. Q ~ his beliefs—1'm sorry. | didn't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead. A Yes. Q Okay. Repeatedly? Is that a constant -- not constant; a frequent theme in his statements? A Yes. Q Okay. Didn't really ~- January 6th didn't change that core perspective? A No. Q Okay. And anything in this conversation on Air Force One at all stick out beyond, | know we're going to talk about immigration today, I'll think about other stuff, anything more that you recall, anything — not specific words, but general subjects discussed? A He spoke about rioters, people who stormed the Capitol Building Q What did he say about that? A He indicated his belief --or reiterated his belief that antifa and BLM activists and others likely had infiltrated within his own supporters, Q Okay. Did he say that on Air Force One during that conversation? A Ub-huh, Q_ Yes? You have to answer "yes" or "no." A Yes.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 a Q Okay. Did he say that on other occasions, his belief that antifa had infiltrated the crowd on January 6th? A Yes. Q__ Didhe cite any evidence for that or where he had heard that or what the basis of that was? A He did, but | don't recall the evidence that he provided Q Was it news reporting or personal accounts, or do you recall the nature of it, the support? A don't recall specifically. Q Okay. What else did he say, if anything, about January 6th about what had happened at the Capitol? A That's the only thing | recall him mentioning of January 6th. Q Okay. How about on other occasions? Anytime thereafter, do you remember him saying other observations, other things about January 6th? A Atone time he indicated that he didn't want to talk about January 6th. Did he say why? No. De Okay. How did that even come up? A If recall, it was around the time of -- it was near January 6th, and he was just tired of talking about it. He didn't want to talk about it, didn't want to acknowledge it. Q__ Did this come up, Mr. Deere, in the context of an opportunity for him to say something or even a draft of something and him being resistant to sort of talking about that publicly? A If recall, it was for him to say something ~~10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 42 Q Okay. A ~ publicly. Q Yes. And, again, tell me everything you can recall about why he didn't want to say something about January 6th A don't recall specifically other than he just didn't want to talk about it anymore. He was tired of talking about it. Q Allright. Do you remember how long after January 6th that conversation was, roughly? A I think it was, like, Friday, January 8th, or maybe even that following Monday. It was around the -~ it had been several days. Q Okay. But not several weeks? A Correct Q This was sort of later -- January 6th was a Wednesday. A Correct Q So this was sometime later that week or over the weekend? A Italso could have been in preparation for the border trip. Q Okay. | just recall him saying he didn't want to talk about it. Q Isee. Allright. ‘And, again, reason for that was you said tired of it or had already said what he wanted to say? Tell me more what the basis was. A The only thing | recall is him saying he didn’t want to talk about it, he was tired of talking about it. Q Okay. Were you and others encouraging him to talk about it, saying he should say something about10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 43 A Yes. Q Tellme more. What did you or others suggest that he should say or would say? A [felt that it would be incredibly odd not to acknowledge it. Q And did you express that to him? A Yes. And what was his response? A He, again, reiterated that he was tired of talking about it. Q Okay. A Didn't want to talk about it. Q__ Inyour view, had he not sufficiently addressed it with his public - his initial statement on January 7th? A OnJanuary 7th or January 6th? Q_— Whenever his initial statement was released. | thought it was on the 7th ~ [EE - believe he did statements on the 6th and the 7th. PS Voc ish, be aia a Q Regardless of when, did you feel at this time that whatever he had said, at whatever time, was somehow insufficient? A If i'm recalling correctly, the following week, the lead into the border trip may have been his first public appearance in person, not ona video. And, yes, | felt like he should still acknowledge it in some capacity since he had not done a public event to that point. Q__ Yeah, | think you're exactly right. He did not do a public event until the following week.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 44 Did others share your -w and similarly encourage him to address it or say something about January 6th at that first public appearance? A Yes. Q Who? A Kayleigh. Q_ Okay. Was she part of the same conversation? A Yes. Q Anyone else? A don't recall anyone else. Q Okay. And then at that first public appearance, what happened? Was he asked about it? Did he address it or not? A don't recall if he addressed it in the remarks or not. Q_— Okay. Any other conversations with him about January 6th that you can recall? A Not specifically. Q__ Have you talked to him since the administration ended, since January 20th? Yes. Q Have you talked about it since then, since neither of you are any longer working together at the White House? A Yes. Q_ Tellus what he said. How many times have you talked to him about it? And tell us about those conversations. A He acknowledged ~ he acknowledged that it was a terrible day, but he believes that many of his supporters are being mistreated, and that he doesn't believe10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 45 that the rioters and people who instigated violence in the summer of 2020 had been held to the same scrutiny and standards as his supporters, who may or may not have stormed the Capitol had been. When you say "may or may not have stormed the Capitol," what do you mean? | know I'm asking you to interpret what he meant, but I'm trying to understand that. People did storm the Capitol. Does the "may or may not" mean whether they were his supporters? A Again, | can't tell you what's in his head, but that my interpretation of what he is saying. Q Ise. Did he in these subsequent conversations after January 20th continue to say antifa or others had infiltrated, somehow infiltrated the crowd? A {don't recall him saying antifa specifically, but not my people. Q Okay. Is this one conversation, Mr. Deere, you're talking about, or is this a series of conversations? A Thisis one conversation. When and where did that take place? This would have been in April of 2021 at Mar-a-Lago. Q Okay. What was the reason, the occasion that brought you there and prompted the conversation? A Senator Hagerty was doing a one-on-one meeting with him, and they both asked that I join the meeting. Q Because you worked for the President and now were working for Senator Hagerty? | see. ‘A [No verbal response.]10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 46 Q Okay. So you accompanied Senator Hagerty to Mar-a-Lago to meet with the President? A Correct Q Ise. \s that the only conversation with him that you had about anything since you left employment at the White House? A No. Q Okay. Have there been telephone or other conversations or other meetings? A Nottelephone. There has been one other meeting, Q Okay. A August of 2021 ~ Q Okay. A ~athis property in Bedminster, New Jersey, also with Senator Hagerty. Q Allright. Did he say anything then about January 6th? A {don't recall him bringing up January 6th at that meeting. Q Okay. So everything that you discussed earlier about his views on January 6th post administration were from that April conversation at Mar-a-Lago? A Correct Q_ Allright. Anything else that he said during that conversation about January 6th that you can recall? A don't recall that. Q Okay. Did he cite anything as evidence for the views that his supporters were being mistreated, the summer protestors weren't similarly held accountable, the infiltration of the crowd by not his people, all of those statements, did he say, | read that10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 a7 here or someone ~ this person told me that? A Idon't recall if he did or not. Q You don't - does that -- do you recall that he did cite evidence and you don't recall what it is, or you're not recalling whether he cited any such evidence? A don't recall if he cited any evidence. Q Okay. Allright. And when he said all of this, Mr. Deere, what did you say? What was your response? A {don't recall engaging in this portion of the meeting. Again, it wasn't my meeting. | was asked to sit in. There were certainly moments in the conversation that | weighed in, but | don't recall engaging the January 6th discussion. Q Okay. He was talking, not looking for your views, but just talking about what had occurred? A [No verbal response.] Q Yes? A Yes. Q Okay. Anything else at all in that conversation that you recall? No. Q Okay. Have you talked to him about the subpoena that you received to come to testify before the select committee? A No. The Witness. Could we take a break? | Absolutely. We should say whenever you need one, you just say10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 48 the word and we'll break. PER 01 "10st note before we go off the record that Congressman Aguilar has joined us. How long a break would you like to take; 5, 10 minutes? The Witness. Ten minutes is fine. HM Ten minutes. Okay. We'll resume in about 10 minutes. We'll go off the record. [Recess.] [EES 2... We'll go back on the record. a Q__ So, Mr. Deere, | would like to now step back and walk through things somewhat chronologically, starting with election night, November 3, 2020. Do you recall where you were on election night? Actually, let me ask a different question Were you at the White House on election night? A Yes. That's what I was interested in, Did you have any conversations with the President on election night? A No. Q Did you have any interactions with Mayor Rudy Giuliani on election night? A No. Q Did you hear anything about anything that Rudy Giuliani said about whether or not the President should -- let me rephrase that. Did you hear anything about what Mayor Giuliani said on election night to the President about what he should say about the election?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 49 ‘A Only what's been reported in the media. Q Just - not to quibble with words, but you heard it only through the media, not that you heard the same thing from somebody other than the media? A Correct Q Okay. Were you involved at all in the preparation of the speech that President Trump delivered on election night? A No. Q Do you know who was involved in preparing his remarks? A No. Q Soin the days immediately following the election, so we'll say a week or so after the election, do you recall any conversations about how the White House press office should respond to press inquiries about the election? A Again, as | stated earlier, anything involving Donald Trump as a candidate for office, or the 2020 election would have been handled by the President's campaign, not the White House. Q Soas! mentioned earlier, we on the committee understand that Kayleigh McEnany, in addition to her White House responsibilities also, whether after hours or whenever it might be, made a lot of TV appearances where she may have been sort of informally acting on behalf of the campaign. Did you have discussions with Ms. McEnany about any of those television appearances where she did talk about the 2020 election? A don't recall them if | did. Okay. If you'll look at exhibit 4 in your binder. This looks like a tweet from Erin Perrine?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 50 A Perrine. Q Perrine. Thank you. And it looks like you retweeted it. First of all, who is Erin Perrine? A Currently or then? Q_ Then. A She would have been on the communications team for the campaign. Q And then when you retweeted it, is that from a personal Twitter account or official Twitter account in the sense that there even is a relevant distinction there? A This is my personal account. Q And you can see in this exhibit 4, there are several tweets here that you retweeted. Feel free to take a moment to look them over. You may have already done so in preparation for this. But several of those, if not all of them, refer to allegations of election fraud. Can you explain -- we don't need to go through each one, but explain in general why you were retweeting these tweets that contained allegations of election fraud? A If recall correctly, these would have been in the days immediately following the 2020 election, and | elected to amplify them on my personal Twitter account. Q And what was the objective in doing so? A Asa private citizen, | was personally supportive of President Trump winning the 2020 election, and this was -- these were items that the President's campaign were pushing or involved in in the days immediately following the election, and | was supportive of that effort, Q__ Inthe days following the election, so we're talking now before December 14th, which was an important date we talked about before, did you believe that it was still possible that Donald Trump could end up being the winner of the 202010 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 51 election? A Yes, But with every passing day, | thought it was becoming more challenging and difficult. Q And whys that? A Well, as I've indicated, December 14th is an important day, and as you get closer and closer to that day, | think the odds are less and less likely. It also certainly became more challenging, in my opinion, when all of the media operation on Saturday, November 6th ~ Sth or 6th declared Joe Biden the winner. Q_— May have been the 7th. ‘A Math has never been my strong suit. HE ight? | It is the 7th, The Witness. | do communications, not math. PR £20°1¢"° don't do math either HE | 2s told there would be no math in this deposition. — Q_Inaddition to that, there were several lawsuits, and I don't recall exactly when the court rulings were, but did court rulings also factor into your changing view over time that it became less and less likely that President Trump could be declared the winner? A Certainly. Q — Canyou explain that? A Certainly. If you lose a lawsuit, then you haven't prevailed. It's not going in the direction that you want it to go. Q And in the time period between the November 3rd election and the10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 52 December 14th meeting of the electoral college, did you view the court system as the primary mechanism by which the President could challenge the results of the election? A Yes, | suppose litigation is what | viewed as the primary means. Q Were there other means? A If there were, | wasn't aware of them. Q Okay. If you look at exhibit 5, this appears to be a series of texts between you and Evan Hollander. Who is Evan Hollander? ‘A Congresswoman DeLauro's communications director. Q__ Did he ever serve in the Trump administration? No. Q Towards the bottom of the first page, there are two tweets in blue, which | believe means -- A Texts. Q_I'msorry. HR 28 beets, tents HR Thank you. I make that mistakes often. So anytime | just referred to tweets in the past couple of moments should be references to texts. — Q_ There are a couple of texts that are in blue which | believe means that you sent them to Mr. Hollander, and you wrote, | mean -- well, he asks, "How ya holding up?" And you wrote, "! mean I've had better weeks but we are where we are. Losing seems inevitable but we are going to exhaust legal options and then concede." Then I'll have to figure out what's next.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 53 So let's break that apart a little bit. When you say, I've had better weeks, what did you mean by that? A lexpected us to win on Election Day. That did not certainly pan out as | expected it to. Q And I believe, although | don't think it's reflected here on the page, that those two texts that | mentioned, that | just read, were from early morning November 7, 2020. And then you wrote, Losing seems inevitable. Why did you think losing was inevitable or seemed inevitable at that time? A Iwas talking to a friend who is a Democrat. Maybe | softened my language. Q Was it your view that you thought at that point losing was inevitable? A I wouldn't say that | thought that it was inevitable. Maybe in my conversation to Evan | was, again, softening my approach to him, but that certainly wasn't how I felt personally at that moment, Q Do you recall how you felt at that moment? A Well, is there -- you said this is November 7th? QI believe so. Tt 2' s correct. The Witness. Yeah, I mean, on November 7th | ~I mean, as you mentioned earlier, that may be the day that media outlets called the race for President Trump. That was certainly a setback? Mr. Field. Biden, for President Biden. The Witness. Yeah, had called the race for President Biden | | That would have been a significant development in our investigation, by the way.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 54 Mr. Field. For the sake of a clear transcript. The Witness. But | still believed that the President had every right to exhaust legal options, which is what my next part of the sentence says. o's Q Okay. So let's go to the next part sentence where you wrote, "We're going to exhaust legal options and then concede." What id you base that on? ‘A My own gut feeling that we would do the right thing, Q_— And what was the right thing? A That we would recognize when we needed to concede. Q And when, in your mind, would that have been? A Idon't know that I had a date in mind at that specific point in time. | felt like we would exhaust all legal options and then we would concede. Q Okay. So~ ‘A Idon't know that when I wrote this that | was thinking December 14th. Q understand. Is it fair to say that the gist of what you were saying is that you thought litigation was the available option for challenging the results of the election, but if the litigation failed, then it would be time to concede? A Yes. Q Okay. Was that view - well, you wrote here ~ and | understand it was just a text which may have been late at night or early in the morning, so | don't want to be too literal about it. But you said, "We are going to exhaust legal options and then concede." It seems like that was not just a view of what you thought should happen, but you seemed to have some reason to think that that's what would happen. Is that correct?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 2 23 24 25 55. A Well, | believe that the RNC was already pursuing several legal options at that point in time in the Trump campaign. Q Had anybody, whether in the White House or elsewhere, indicated that the plan was that if the litigation failed, the President would concede? A {don't recall a discussion on that. HR anything else on that? a aT Q Mr. Deere, with respect to the retweets that III asked you about in exhibit 4, are those still up on your personal Twitter account? A To the best of my knowledge, they are. | conducted a search of my personal Twitter account in preparation for this. | don't recall the retweets being in what | provided, but it's also very difficult to search old tweets past a certain date. Certainly page 6 is something that | believe | provided. QI think that's right. | will represent that you did produce that message to us. Is there - you know, to the best of your recollection, did you ever delete retweets or delete messages that you had previously tweeted? A don't recall if did, Q__ Andisit fair to say you don't recall whether you deleted these messages -- your retweets, | should say? A To the best of my knowledge, | did not delete them. ae a Q Okay. So on November 7, 2020, Rudy Giuliani and some other people10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 56 hosted a press conference in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, which was at the Four Seasons, and, as has widely been reported, turned out not to be the fancy hotel, but instead a landscaping business. Did you have any involvement in that at all? A No. Q Did you wateh it? A [recall it being on the TV. I don't recall the audio being on. Q Okay. Do you recall learning about what Mayor Giuliani said there? A Certainly, yes. Q And what was your reaction to it? A Disbelief. Q Why? A It just seemed odd. What was odd about it other than the locations being at the Four Seasons Landscaping? A Again, personally, the approach seemed odd. There was a track moving with litigation being conducted by the RNC and the Trump campaign, and then there now seemed to be this different branch beginning. Where that would lead, | had no idea. Q Explain why you viewed it as a different branch, so different ~- it sounds like different from the litigation that you just mentioned? A It just didn't seem to be affiliated with the litigation that had been conducted thus far. Q Do you recall whether you had conversations about that press conference with anybody else at the White House? A I don't recall10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 7 RR 4 you going to move on from the Four Seasons? PER | «2s, 2+" iry0u have more questions, go ahead. | ' Q | guess before we get too deep into the chronology, | wanted to go back, with respect to Mr. Giuliani, to election night. Do you remember seeing him at the White House on election night? A | don't. Q Okay. Were you aware of any discussions that he or others had with the President about what the President should say on election night, say to the Nation, | mean, like a public statement? ‘A Not beyond what | have read in the media that was supposedly said to him that night. Q Yeah. And | don't need to ask you to recount the media. _| just wondered if you had any personal awareness, Mr. Deere, of any discussions about his first statement after the election late at night or early morning on Wednesday? A No. | Okay. That's all. Thank you. a Q — OnNovember 9, 2020, campaign manager Bill Stepien met with Representative Scott Perry, Representative Jim Jordan, Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, Stephen Miller, and Kayleigh McEnany. According to public reporting, the group settled on a strategy that would become a blueprint for Mr. Trump's supporters in Congress which is hammer home the idea that10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 58 the election was tainted, announce legal actions being taken by the campaign, and bolster the case with allegations of fraud. First of all, were you in that meeting? A No. Q Do you remember discussing that meeting with Ms. McEnany or anybody else? A Not that I recall Q Do you have any knowledge of that meeting other than what you may have seen in the media? A No. Q Around that same time the campaign started pushing out messages making claims of election fraud related to the use of Dominion voting systems machines. Do you recall how you first heard about those allegations of fraud related to Dominion voting machines? A don't recall when | first heard about the allegations, Q Do you recall whether you learned about it through the media versus somebody either on the campaign or in the White House? A don't recall. Q Okay. On November 19, 2020, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, and Jenna Ellis spoke at a press conference at the RNC headquarters in Washington, D.C. Ms. Powell made a lot of claims about election fraud, including the Dominion voting system machine issues that I just discussed, and she went even further and said that those machines were created at the direction of Hugo Chavez and were used to flip votes from Trump to Biden. First of all, did you attend that press conference? A No.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 59 Q Did you have any role in preparing for that press conference? A No. Q Okay. There has been a lot of news reporting about President Trump allegedly putting pressure on the Department of Justice officials to conduct investigations about election integrity, Do you have any personal knowledge of that, other than what you may have seen in the medi A No. Q So you didn't have any ~-did you have any conversations with the President about the Department of Justice's role in investigating election fraud? A Not that I recall Q Did you have any conversations with Kayleigh McEnany about the Department of Justice's role in investigating election fraud? A Not that I recall Q Do you have any knowledge, other than what you may have seen in the media about President Trump's consideration of appointing Jeffrey Clark as Acting Attorney General? A Could |ask fora clarification? Was that our Acting Attorney General or ~ Q No, he did not become Acting Attorney General. So when Bill Barr left, Jeff Rosen, who's the Deputy Attorney General, became acting Attorney General. As you may have seen in news reports, an Assistant Attorney General named Jeffrey Clark had communications with the President about taking additional action, being more aggressive, which could have included things like sending letters to State officials saying they should convene their State legislatures. And the news reports indicate that at some point the President even went so far as to say to Jeff Clark that he was going to.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 60 appoint him Acting Attorney General, but he ultimately did not. So to the extent that refreshes your recollection, do you have any knowledge of that other than what you may have seen in the media? A No. Q And you don't remember discussing that with the President? A No. Q Do you remember discussing it ever with Kayleigh McEnany? No. Q Were you involved in any discussions about the possibility of a special prosecutor or a special counsel being appointed to investigate election fraud? A Not that I recall Q Were you involved in any conversations about the Federal Government potentially seizing voting machines from the States? A Not that I recall Q Were you involved in any conversations about possibly using the Department of Homeland Security or any other Federal agency to investigate allegations of voter fraud? A No. Q — Doyou have any familiarity, other than what you might have seen in the media, regarding any of President Trump's conversations with State officials in contested States, I'll call them, regarding the outcome of the 2020 election? A I'msorry. Could you repeat the question? Q Sure. We understand that President Trump had numerous phone calls with State officials, in some cases, Secretaries of State, or Governors, | mentioned the Brad10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 61 Raffensperger call, which you're familiar with, but also calls with leaders of State legislatures. Do you have any familiarity with any of those calls, other than what you may have seen in the media? A Nothing beyond what | have seen in the media. Q Okay. If you can look at exhibit 8, this is an email from you on your White House account, Thursday, December 10. It says, "President Trump will have lunch with a dozen State attorneys general," and then lists them. After the list it says, "On background, the attorneys general are in town for pre-planned meetings not associated with the White House, and this luncheon was planned around that meeting several weeks ago." Do you recalll what the purpose of the meeting was between the President and State attorneys general? A Exactlyas I stated in this. It was to discuss shared interests between the Federal Government and States attorneys general and continuing that partnership, Q Did you attend the meeting? A The meeting wasa luncheon. I did not attend the luncheon, but | was in the room, given that | used to work for one of the individuals, and | know many of the other attendees, but | departed when the President came in, given that it was a private luncheon. Q_— Okay. And did the President give remarks? A I wasn't in the room, so | -- but to the best of my knowledge, that was not planned. He may have spoken in terms of conversation, but | don't know if he gave remarks or not. Q Do you know whether he had any conversation with any or all of those State10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 62 attorneys general regarding the 2020 election? A Idonot know. I wasn't in the room, Q Do you know who was in the room? A Froma staff level? Q Yes. A {donot know. Q__ Are you aware of any discussions with anyone in the White House, whether the President or staff, about efforts to convene alternate slates of electors in certain States that Joe Biden had won? A I'mnot aware of any of those conversations. Q__ If you look at exhibit 28, so it looks like a tweet from your account dated December 27, 2020. My understanding is this tweet is part of a larger thread in which you're reposting excerpts from the President's statements regarding the Coronavirus Relief Bill, and then it says here, "Likewise, the House and Senate have agreed to focus strongly on the very substantial voter fraud which took place in the November 3rd presidential election.” Before he gets into your questions, | brought copies of the longer thread -- ME © 208 Mr. Bartolomuce ~ since it's a document we produced, Could we talk about this document at the same time that we talk about yours? GR Sure. And we can have it included in the record. Mr. Bartolomucci, That would be great.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 63 |] Do we need to give it a new number? 08 con markit ase. TR %2y. Well just call it 288, Mr. Field. For the record, it's JPD0605 from our production, HE 127k you. [Deere Exhibit No. 288 Was marked for identification.] ‘a Q So the document Mr. Bartolomucci just handed me may answer the question, but that language | just read, so, "Likewise, the House and Senate have agreed to focus strongly on the very substantial voter fraud which took place in the November 3rd presidential election." Are those your words or the President's? A The President's Q Okay. But you were retweeting it?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 [12:07 p.m.) The Witness. | think, if you look at my official Twitter account, | routinely took press statements or prepared statements that we released from the White House, be it from the press secretary or from the President, and routinely created tweet threads off of the language within that statement. And this is ~ that's what this is. Okay. And so this is --is this your official Twitter account? A Yes. Q Okay. And And, by official, meaning | had it because of my service at the White House. Ino longer have access to it. Q understand. And so, then, did you retweet all of the President's tweets? A No. No. Q_ Okay. Andis there any particular reason why you retweeted that particular one that I just read? A Well, | didn't retweet anything here. Again, | just took the words out of his prepared statement and put them into a thread. Q Did you have any concerns about putting that language into the thread? A No. They were his words. Q understand these were the President's words, not yours. But at the time that you put those into the thread, did you believe that the President there was referring to the upcoming January 6th joint session of Congress? A No.10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 65. Q Okay. What did you think he was referring to? A Imean, the sentence is quite short. "The House and Senate have agreed to focus strongly on the very substantial voter fraud which took place in the November 3rd Presidential election." The House and Senate are going to focus on it. Q Okay. And did you have any understanding of what that meant, for the House and Senate to focus strongly on it? A Nope. I'm not a member of either one of those bodies. Q No. I meant more what -- did you have any understanding what the President meant when he used those words? A Idonot. I can't tell you what was in his head at the time. Q Do you know what he based that view on, that the House and Senate would, in fact, focus strongly on the substantial voter fraud, to use his language? A Idonot. Q_ Okay. Did you have any conversations with the President about that particular language? A No. Q__ Did you have any conversations with anybody at the White House about it? A don't recall if| did. Q Did you have any knowledge at the time that President Trump or others were placing pressure on Vice President Pence to use his role as President of the Senate to reject electoral votes from certain States? A Did Ihave any knowledge of it? Q Yes. A No. Q But surely you eventually learned about it in the media?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 66 A Yes. Q Did you have any conversations about the Vice President's role in the January 6th joint session of Congress with the President? A Not that I recall Q Did you have any conversations about the Vice President's role in the January 6th joint session of Congress with anybody in the staff at the White House? A Not that I recall Q — Doyou know John Eastman? A No. Q Did you hear anything other than through the media about Mr. Eastman's role in advising the President? A No. Q__ Did you ever have a conversation with the President where, as far as you can recall, John Eastman was even mentioned? ‘A Aconversation with the President where Mr. Eastman was mentioned? Qs Yes. A No. Q Okay. Do you have any familiarity with a so-called war room that was set up at the Willard Hotel in the days leading up to and including January 6th for representatives of the President's campaign? ‘A Not beyond what's been reported in the media —_— Q_ Before you leave the Vice President, let me just ask generally as a matter of course, Mr, Deere, was there coordination between the Vice President's press team and you and the others that worked for the President on those media matters?10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 22 23 24 25 o7 A Onmedia matters generally? Q Yeah. Yes. Q Would it be standard practice, if they were to put something out, they would notify someone on your team and vice versa, if you were going to put something out, you'd notify them? Was there that kind of coordination or communication? A Yes. Q Okay. Do you recall any coordination with the Vice President about things the Vice President --the Vice President's statement, for example, issued on January 6th. You know, he issued a long letter, put that out by Twitter. Was there any heads-up or coordination about that with the White House press office? A If there was, | wasn't aware of it. Q Okay. How about any other election-related statements, coordination that you're aware of, if any, with the Vice President's communications people? A don't recall it if there was. Q Okay. Not just about the statement, but generally about that issue? A Not that I~ Q Okay. A Not that I recall Q Allright. Thank you. HE | ced just a moment. The Witness. Sure. Tokay. not trying to play any tricks here. There is a document that you all produced that I'm now realizing I'd be interested in asking about. It might take us a minute to bring it up. _ I'm just going to read what | know about it, and if you10 ul 2 3B 14 45 16 v 18 1s 20 24 2 23 24 25 68. want, we can pause and bring it up. I can also, you know, talk to your counsel if you wanted to Mr. Bartolomucci. Do you know the Bates number? HE | do. The Bates number ends in 47229 Ho the Bates numbers that you produced, it would end on 286. 2. Mr. Bartolomucci, 286. One sec. J And | believe that's a fairly long produced document, and the specific page number is 38. So this is on the topic of the Willard Hotel. And my understanding is that a reporter asked about -- Mr. Field. If we can just interject. If we can just find the page first for the witness to look at. ME Mr. Field. What's the specific Bates number of the page you're asking about? MR | i cet it for you. Mr. Field. Okay. Mr. Bartolomucci. At first | thought you said 286, and then | heard 38. HRS the Bates number 286 is the first page of the document, but | will pull up the specific Bates number of the exhibit is interested in discussing. TERE °° ropefully we're ~ if you want, | can just read to you what | think is the relevant passage and you can tell me if that's ~ Mr. Field. Is that the ~ TR | 20" tel! from my notes here if you're on the same page.