1

4 SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE

5 JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL,

6 U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

7 WASHINGTON, D.C.

10

11 INTERVIEW OF: RUSSELL BOWERS

12

13

14

15 Sunday, June 19, 2022

16

17 Washington, D.C.

18

19

20 The interview in the above matter was held via Webex, commencing at 4:33 p.m.

21 Present: Representative Schiff.

 2

2 Appearances:

5 For the SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE

6 THE JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL:

9 SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

10 INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

11

12 For RUSSELL BOWERS:

13

14 ANDREW PAPPAS

15 GENERAL COUNSEL TO THE ARIZONA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

 3

2 Mr.- Good afternoon. This is a transcribed interview of Russell Bowers

3 conducted by the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the

4 United States Capitol, pursuant to House Resolution 503.

5 Mr. Bowers, could you please state your full name and spell your last name for the

6 record.

7 Mr. Bowers. My name is Russell Wesley Bowers. And that is spelled

8 B-o-w-e-r-s.

9 Mr. - Thank you. And, Counsel, could you please identify yourself and

10 spell your last name for the record as well.

11 Mr. Pappas. Yes. I'm Andrew Pappas, general counsel to the Arizona House of

12 Representatives. And my last name is P-a-p-p-a-s.

13 Mr. - Thank you, Mr. Pappas.

14 My name i s - I'm senior investigative counsel for the select

15 committee. In the room today with me is Investigative Counsel This will

16 be a staff-led interview, and members, of course, may choose to also ask questions.

17 Because this is a virtual interview, if members join, they will likely do so via Webex

18 and will turn on their cameras if they have any questions.

19 I'll try to announce their presence when they join so you know who is on. I can

20 see right now we have Mr. Schiff has joined us, and if other members join from time to

21 time, I'll try and note their presence.

22 There is an official reporter transcribing the record of this interview. Please wait

23 until each question is completed before you begin your response, and we'll try to wait

24 until your response is complete before we ask our next question.

25 The stenographer cannot record nonverbal responses such as shaking your head,
 4

1 so it's important that you answer each question with an audible, verbal response.

2 We ask that you provide complete answers based on your best recollection. If

3 the question's not clear, please ask for clarification. If you don't know the answer, then

4 please simply say so.

5 I'm going to offer an admonition here that we make with all witnesses, so please

6 don't read anything into the fact that I need to remind you that it's unlawful to

7 deliberately provide false information to Congress and doing so could be a violation of

8 title 18, United States Code, section 1001, or other statutes.

9 Mr. Bowers, do you have any questions about anything that I've gone over thus

10 far?

11 Mr. Bowers. None.

12 ~ If at any point during this interview you need to take a break, please

13 just let us know and you can certainly do so.

14 Mr. Bowers. Thank you.

15 EXAMINATION

16

17 Q Mr. Bowers, are you currently the speaker of the Arizona House of

18 Representatives?

19 A I am.

20 Q How long have you held that position?

21 A I was elected on, let's see, the day after the election -- general election in

22 2018. Yeah. That's correct. So whether that was the 3rd or the 4th of

23 November 2018.

24 Q Thank you. Speaker Bowers, I'd like to begin by giving some context of

25 your involvement in the 2020 election. You were a strong supporter of President Trump
 5

1 in his re-election bid. Is that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Did you campaign for him?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Were you disappointed that he didn't prevail?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Prior to the election, Speaker Bowers, President Trump was claiming that the

8 results would be rigged because of alleged fraud related to mail-in voting. Did you think

9 those false claims about rigged elections were productive?

10 A No.

11 Q Can you explain?

12 A In Arizona, we've been using mail-in balloting and a preliminary vote count

13 for some years. In fact, I'm thinking at least 20 years, if not 30. And we have a very

14 tight system in my view. I've known Helen Purcell, the previous recorder, previous to

15 that election by 2 years. So I've known her and her professional credentials and had

16 every confidence that, while there are always things that we could improve, that our vote

17 by mail and our early balloting would be done professionally and correctly.

18 Q And, Speaker Bowers, in your view, did President Trump's warnings about

19 fraud come to pass on election day in Arizona?

20 A No.

21 Q In those first days after the election, did you begin to hear various theories

22 about voter fraud in Arizona?

23 A Constantly.

24 Q What type of claims?

25 A On, on, on. Lots of different stories, anecdotes, many of which are in some
 6

1 of the things that we've sent in, but people who were denied their witness prerogatives

2 to witness counting in counting centers, a person who went on to some length about

3 having a contact with video and/or still photographs of a Korean Airlines jet that brought

4 a pallet of ballots that were off-loaded and taken to the counting center, things like that,

5 salacious things.

6 Q Sharpiegate, use of sharpies, is that one of the issues --

7 A Yes. Sharpies were part of it that was allowed, encouraged, and then

8 denied, and there was some -- you know, the sharpiegate portion of the discussion of the

9 conspiracies, and so that was one of many.

10 Q Did you see any credible evidence to support any of the conspiracy claims or

11 claims of election fraud that came up in the days following the election?

12 A I did not see them personally, but I was willing to, at least, ask and to take

13 those to people that I trusted, our county recorders and other officials who were over the

14 counting and review them with them.

15 We will probably talk about later when decisions were taken by the Senate to go a

16 different way, but I had -- I have a method that I apply to problems, and one is to bring all

17 the expertise I can to any particular problem before we formulate any plan or resolution,

18 just to try to learn as much of the lay of the land on anything. And this immediately was

19 pressing the almost unhinged, extremely uncivil response that was our counting, the large

20 county counting center, and I just knew I wasn't going to do that, and I needed to

21 maintain contacts inside who had credible and professional knowledge that I could talk

22 to.

23 So a lot of these things, you know, they cause you some questioning, but I have a

24 method for addressing those questions.

25 Q And did the people who you asked to look into those various allegations
 7

1 respond to you or give you information as to what they were finding?

2 A When we did initially begin those discussions, I just said: Here are the

3 things that I've heard. Can you help me address those?

4 And they did.

5 And Mr. Pappas was with me at the time that we went to the counting center, but

6 that was not immediately after the election. For a while, much of the discussion was

7 about -- that I should call us into session, that I should throw out the election. Just the

8 email volume from what I was able to read, we received tens of thousands of emails daily

9 per my -- I have two assistants, and they were consistently, just all day long, either filing

10 or deleting emails.

11 And so much of -- much of the email subject matter concerned various conspiracy

12 elements, the machinery, the box, the connections in Bulgaria and Venezuela, and

13 offshore and the internet possibilities of infringement or -- you've probably heard every

14 one of these from every other State by now, but a lot of that was the volume, just

15 generally, loud presence constant.

16 Q In the 17 months since the 2020 election, have you seen or has evidence

17 been brought to your attention to support any of those conspiracy theories or election

18 fraud claims that you've just referenced?

19 A There's only one claim that I think had merit and that I knew about

20 personally, and that was when a Federal judge extended the duration period that we had

21 established in State law into the voting period. And we also had -- we and other States

22 had cause, but we do not allow registration and voting on the same day, and so there

23 was that one infringement. And I think that did infringe on a manner that is in our

24 wheelhouse, not to an extent that was ever brought by any number that would

25 effectually negate the gap in votes between Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden. So it was moot.
 8

1 Q So, other than that issue regarding the extension of the registration period,

2 did you ever come across evidence to support any of the other claims of election fraud or

3 the conspiracy theories that you referenced earlier?

4 A I have not.

5 Q And has any of that evidence been brought to your attention or pointed out

6 to you by anyone to whom you delegated the task of looking into the claims?

7 A Yes. Lots of them. I mean, we would -- Mr. Finchem, one of my

8 colleagues, made consistent claims and was kind of a broker. He would hear them and

9 forward them to me. And we'd classify these as this ongoing and persistent data about

10 the election that that was sufficient rationale for us to call a committee hearing, give him

11 the opportunity to hear those claims in an official capacity and et cetera.

12 So counting center fraud, computer fraud in the counting center, witnesses who

13 said they saw abuse of the processes that had been set up, et cetera, those kind of things

14 were brought to my attention, and I believe some of those we provided assignment

15 sheets coming out of counting centers, which meant nothing, but -- but they were at least

16 brought to my attention and I -- I saw nothing credible.

17 It was mostly internet-style claims with very little, if any -- in fact, I never saw any

18 credible evidence, which was part of the challenges that were brought against me by my

19 enemies, and I will just say it that way. I have enemies.

20 And they use that that I -- I would say in like in our news release that without any

21 credible evidence. They would say: Well, there's all kinds of evidence. It's

22 everywhere.

23 And I'd say that's -- I mean, I used anecdotes in my mind as what evidence is.

24 There's credible evidence, and then there's evidence, and there's hearsay

25 evidence, and there's et cetera. There's types of evidence, but to the level that would
 9

1 be required in my mind to convince me that there was -- there was sufficient fraud and

2 sufficient activity that would merit our involvement, no, never found any.

3 Q So it sounds like there were a multitude of claims brought to your attention

4 by constituents, other members of the House of Representatives, but in your view, there

5 was no credible evidence to support any of those claims. Is that correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Speaker Bowers, I understand that, in late November, or November 22nd to

8 be specific, you received a phone call from President Trump and Rudy Giuliani in which

9 they discussed the result of the Presidential election in Arizona with you.

10 Do you recall that conversation?

11 A Of course.

12 Q Can you describe that phone call for us?

13 A I can. My wife and I returned from church. We had been in very serious

14 discussion, President Fann and I, for some -- couple weeks, at least, on what we might do

15 that would help restore confidence generally and defray some of this activity.

16 So we had spoken a lot and when our chief first had called and had asked if I had

17 received -- been in contact with the White House and I said: No. No.

18 She said: Well, they've been trying to get in touch with me, and I don't know

19 that they're going to ask, but we at least should be on the same page and have some, you

20 know, not move, take any motion or make any commitment without talking to each

21 other.

22 I agreed.

23 And then we said: Well, if you get it, call me back.

24 And immediately, on my Bluetooth in my car, it said that the White House was

25 calling. And I took that call, and the White House operator asked if I would hold for the
 10

1 President, and it was Rudy Giuliani who came on and said salutation. And he said that

2 the President would be with us shortly, and shortly thereafter, the President came on.

3 Q Speaker Bowers, can I interrupt you for one second? I just want to clarify.

4 You referenced President Fann. Is that Karen Fann, the President of the Arizona Senate?

5 A That is correct.

6 Q Okay. So Mr. Giuliani told you that the President would be coming on the

7 line, and then he --

8 A And he shortly did, shortly thereafter he did.

9 Q Okay.

10 A Collegial, you know, some small talk. And then I said: Well, how can I be

11 of help?

12 And, again, in the context -- I support the President, and they said: Well, we are

13 given to understand -- and I am reconstructing a lot of things in my mind, that is, to my

14 best memory -- I understand that there are -- there has been a lot of fraud in your

15 election.

16 And then he proceeded to give classifications, groups of people, a large amount,

17 60,000 illegal aliens, you know, large numbers, voted in your election, a number of dead

18 people voted in your election, fraudulent military ballots were counted in your election,

19 people that voted and moved -- and he had more. I can't remember all of them

20 and -- and I said: Rudy, you -- Mr. Mayor at first, and then it just got down to Rudy -- do

21 you have -- do you have proof of that?

22 And they said: Yes.

23 I said: Do you have names?

24 Yes.

25 Can you give those to me?

 11

1 Yes.

2 And the President -- and I said: I need more than just numbers. I need proof,

3 and I need it on my desk. I don't want it -- it's not a thing about a hunch, I think, maybe,

4 none of that. It has to be proof, names, how they voted, on my desk.

5 Q Speaker Bowers, can I interrupt you for one moment?

6 A Of course.

7 Q So was the person who started ticking off these claims that there were

8 60,000 illegal aliens who voted, a number of dead people voted, was that President

9 Trump or Mr. Giuliani?

10 A No, it was Mr. Giuliani.

11 Q Did the President share any of his thoughts or give any input on the specifics

12 of the claims of election fraud?

13 A He did not, to my recollection. Not to the specifics. He didn't offer any

14 numbers or anything.

15 Q So Mr. Giuliani --

16 A He did say --

17 Q I'm sorry.

18 A He did say, because I -- I was insistent that I had to have proof, real proof,

19 judicial level. That's the kind of proof I'm talking about. And the President said:

20 Rudy, give the man what he wants. Give him what he wants.

21 And Rudy said: I will. I will. We have it.

22 And then he continued in his discussion. And I said: Rudy, what's the ask here?

23 What's the ask?

24 And the President said: Rudy, what's the ask? What do you need from the

25 speaker?
 12

1 And then he said -- of the two issues that I remember most, the first was that he

2 wanted to have a committee meeting. He wanted the legislature to hold an official

3 committee and then be able, I would presume, when you say "official committee," I'm

4 not talking about an interim ad hoc committee, but an official committee of using one of

5 our standard standing committees to do it.

6 And that's what he said: We'd like to have a committee meeting and review this

7 proof and this information in a legislative committee. And then, you know, have some

8 type of established level of recognition of that information.

9 And I said: I will not do that.

10 And we discussed why. And I said: I'm not going to have a circus. And you

11 know and I know that for me to establish some type of an official report to the legislature

12 that I should call the legislature into session.

13 And to call them into a special session, I need two-thirds of the members to do

14 that, and I only have half plus one. The Democrats aren't going to call me into session or

15 let me go into session. And Rudy said, he said: I'm not familiar with all of the laws of

16 Arizona and the legislature, et cetera.

17 So I just said: You know, people can go out and do an ad hoc committee --1

18 mean, and not named by the President, but the speaker or the President, they can go get

19 a group of people together and talk about it and do what they want. But if you're asking

20 something to happen in the House, I'm not going to allow that.

21 Q So --

22 A Unless I see myself what it is we're talking about. That was kind of the

23 flavor of our discussion.

24 Q So I want to cover a couple things that you mentioned there. First, you said

25 that, early part of your answer, you said that the President encouraged Mr. Giuliani to
 13

1 give you the evidence that you were looking for, and he said he would.

2 Did Mr. Giuliani give you the evidence that you were asking for in that

3 conversation?

4 A Not then and not a week later, not 2 weeks later, not now. Never.

5 Q Okay. The other thing I want to follow up on, I thought you said that there

6 were two components to the ask and one of them you've just described, which is that

7 there be an official committee meeting by a standing committee. What was the other

8 component of the ask by Mr. Giuliani?

9 A And then he said in this flowing of the conversation said: We understand

10 from someone -- and I remember the phrase "high up in Republican circles" in the

11 legislature who said that Arizona law allows for you to call for the dismissal of the Biden

12 electors and the replacement of those electors by a new slate of electors for President

13 Trump if there was sufficient cause.

14 And the flavor of the discussion was that the committee meeting would prove

15 sufficient cause to allow us then to move to number two, which would be the dismissal or

16 the questioning of the electors that had already been elected. I mean, the vote had

17 already been taken by the people, you know, 2 and a half weeks earlier.

18 Q I'm sorry. Speaker Bowers, did Mr. Giuliani identify this high up person in

19 the Republican circles in the legislature?

20 A He did not. I said: I would very much like to know who that is.

21 And he declined.

22 Q So you were the leading Republican in the House as speaker, I assume?

23 A I presumed I was.

24 Q And Ms. Fann was the leading Republican in the Senate?

25 A Yes.
 14

1 Q And was she on this phone call with you on November 22nd?

2 A No, sir, she was not.

3 Q Was it your understanding that Mr. Giuliani was talking about President

4 Fann, Senate President Fann?

5 A No, it was not my understanding.

6 Q Okay.

7 A They never intimated any more than what I've told you. They never said

8 anymore. In my view, I know exactly who it was, but I couldn't -- that's just my personal

9 opinion for who had been pressing this very issue and pressing me to allow him to hold a

10 committee meeting to review it, and that was Mr. Finchem, my Federal relations

11 chairman.

12 Q Speaker Bowers, in your view, was there any merit to the position that Mr.

13 Finchem, or whoever this person was, was pressing on Mr. Giuliani that the Arizona State

14 legislature could disregard Biden electors and install electors for Trump instead?

15 A At the time -- in fact, when he said that, my response was: Now that's a

16 new one. I've never heard that one before.

17 And I said: You need to tell me more about that.

18 And he did. Not they. He. Rudy. Rudy said: Well, we're given this

19 information and that there is a legal theory and there's some legal work.

20 And I said: Rudy, can you think of a time that's ever happened in the United

21 States history?

22 He said: I personally am not an expert on Arizona law. So it was very general.

23 It was later that I received a treatise -- I may have received it earlier by email, but I never

24 read it, wherein Mr. Finchem presents it as part of -- and he told -- he personally told me

25 that that was part of his term paper that he did as part of the legal studies program that
 15

1 he was entered in with the University of Arizona.

2 And it also later came to my attention that John Eastman had had some

3 information that was used by Mr. Finchem as a, you know, legal theory upon which to

4 base his paper and that he cited in his paper.

5 But I had not any other clue other than that initial, you know, claim by Mr.

6 Giuliani. And he -- he backed right up. I mean, he didn't try to give me scripture and

7 verse where in Arizona statute. And he would have been way off, because the claim is

8 against Article 11, section 1, clause 2, about the legislative powers.

9 But that was what he had said, and I just said: Rudy, you're asking me to do

10 something that is beyond anything I have ever heard or contemplated as a constitutional

11 prerogative or choice that I might take. And I will do nothing, nothing that will put my

12 State at risk or cast a bad reputation on my State or on my body unless I know a lot more

13 about it and that I have competent legal -- and not necessarily from this conversation.

14 said: I'm not going to go willy-nilly off and take some kind of decision without good

15 legal counsel on this issue, and I have some good lawyers. And -- and, in fact, I will -- I

16 may have gone beyond what you want me to answer, Mr. Harris.

17 Q No, no. That's fine. So just to summarize.

18 So, Mr. Giuliani, the second part of his ask -- the first part was that you convene a

19 special -- or you bring the committee back into session, an official committee.

20 And the second ask was that the State legislature consider disregarding the Biden

21 electors and install the electors for Trump instead.

22 And, on that second ask, you told him you never heard of such a thing, right?

23 A I never heard of such an authority or thing ever.

24 Q And you shared your skepticism with Mr. Giuliani?

25 A I did.
 16

1 Q And sorry?

2 A Strongly. And he said: Well, you know, we're all kind of Republicans and

3 we need to be working together.

4 And I said -- I mean, that was, you know, those little snippets would be in the

5 conversation and I know when I'm being worked. I mean, I've only been at it for a while.

6 And I know he's trying to work me to a point. And I believe that one -- one point the

7 President said: We're just asking you to investigate. Just look into it.

8 And -- and I said: I will give you the number of my attorney right now.

9 But I said: I have seen people do that on their cell phones, but I'm not real

10 familiar with it, and, Mr. President, I can't even tweet on this thing and watch; it'll be me

11 telling my grandkids that me trying to do this, and I hung up on the President of the

12 United States.

13 And I said: But I'll try.

14 He said: Well, go for it.

15 The President said: Well, go for it.

16 And so I did, and that's exactly what I did. I disconnected us. I hung up on him.

17 Q You're a man of your word.

18 A I follow through. And then Mr. Giuliani immediately called me back and

19 said, hey -- he was laughing, and he said: Hey, the President, he's a great guy. He was

20 laughing like crazy. He said: You know that really is funny.

21 And so then we went on. And I got right back to dead serious. I said: Just

22 remember, Mr. Giuliani, you said you had proof, and I want it. You bring me the proof

23 of all these things you say are real.

24 Q Sorry. And is that how you sort of left things at the end of that

25 conversation?
 17

1 A Yeah. It kind of ended that way. He said he would. I said: I'll have my

2 lawyer get in touch with you. You can expect his call, and I expect you to call him.

3 And I gave him the number, and that's how we left the phone.

4 Q And I think you've already said that you didn't get the proof that you had

5 requested and that he had promised?

6 A That is correct. Nor did he ever call Mr. Pappas. He never made that call.

7 Q I understand that, a week or so after that call -- yes?

8 - I just wanted a couple of followup questions, Speaker Bowers.

9 BY

10 Q Just to clarify, did the President participate in the entirety of the phone call?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay. And did you hear him ever challenge or dispute what Mr. Giuliani

13 was saying to you?

14 A No.

15 Q Okay. And you mentioned that in part of your -- part of your discussion

16 here with us today that one of the second ask that you described about replacing the

17 electors in Arizona, the Biden electors with Trump electors, that you now understand that

18 the source of this argument was in the United States Constitution.

19 Did that come up during the call at that time, or is that something that you've

20 understood later?

21 A No. It did not come up in the call; it was later.

22 Q Okay. So, at the time of this call in November 2020, all that Mr. Giuliani

23 was asserting to you was that someone from Arizona Republican circles had told him that

24 there was an Arizona law that would provide you an avenue to replace the electors. Is

25 that right?
 18

1 A Yes. That's correct.

2 Q And did the President make any comment about that assertion by Mr.

3 Giuliani?

4 A He did not.

5 Q Okay.

6 Thank you.

7 - Mr. Schiff?

8 Mr. Schiff. Yes, thank y o u -

9 Mr. Speaker, once again, thank you for spending part of your Father's Day with us

10 this way. I just wanted to follow up and make sure that weren't leaving anything out.

11 Can you tell us, as best you can recall, each of the times the President spoke up during the

12 conversation and what he had to say?

13 Mr. Bowers. Generally, I even thought, is this like a good cop, bad cop thing,

14 because he would say: Rudy, give him what he needs. Tell him what you need.

15 What's the ask? We'll call the lawyer. Things like that.

16 It was never -- and then one time he said, "We would just like you to investigate

17 this," which was, in my view, I understood that to check it out: We'd like to ask you if

18 you would check it out.

19 Mr. Schiff. What did the President say to you when he first got on the line with

20 you?

21 Mr. Bowers. He said: Mr. Speaker, I've heard a lot about you. You know, the

22 pat on the back stuff. We -- we'd like to talk with you about something that we've been

23 thinking about.

24 He didn't go right to any point, but it was kind of a general introduction, some

25 niceties, and then he turned it over to Rudy.

 19

1 Mr. Schiff. And what was the rest of the pat on the back stuff? Do you recall?

2 Mr. Bowers. That he had heard that I was doing a great job. He did -- we

3 did -- we had met when he had come to campaign, and we -- you know, we met him

4 coming down from Air Force One and went to an event with him and he gave the, you

5 know, the call to the stage and that kind of stuff.

6 So we had met and it was more like, you know, we really appreciate Arizona. It's

7 a great State, great people, that kind of -- it was like campaign talk.

8 Mr. Schiff. So, when you said that you campaigned for him in the 2020 election,

9 you actually campaigned with him at times?

10 Mr. Bowers. I did.

11 Mr. Schiff. And was that more than once or what was the nature --

12 Mr. Bowers. I only recall one campaign -- large campaign event where we went.

13 And then I walked for the campaign and passed out flyers and, you know, went door to

14 door, things like that.

15 Mr. Schiff. Wow. So you actually as the speaker of the House of

16 Representatives in Arizona, you went door to door precinct, walking for President Trump?

17 Mr. Bowers. He and Ms. McSally, yes, that's correct.

18 Mr. Schiff. So, on the phone call after the pleasantries and the pat on the back,

19 he basically turns it over to Rudy to make the requests?

20 Mr. Bowers. That's correct.

21 Mr. Schiff. And, you know, as Giuliani is asking you to call the legislature into

22 session so that he can present whatever evidence he has or suggesting to you that the

23 legislature can somehow decertify the Biden electors or appoint Trump electors, is the

24 President commenting on this along the way?

25 Mr. Bowers. No. I don't ever remember him saying, like "that's right" or "yes"
 20

1 or "well said," nothing like that, never.

2 Mr. Schiff. So his interjections were mostly to, as you say, good cop/bad cop to

3 prompt Rudy to tell you exactly what he wants you to do?

4 Mr. Bowers. That is -- that is my recollection, Mr. Schiff. That's my

5 recollection, yes.

6 Mr. Schiff. And, on the first ask, Rudy Giuliani wanted you to reconvene the

7 legislature so he could present you with what he claimed was evidence of these

8 allegations of fraud, but you weren't willing to do that without seeing some -- some

9 substance to these allegations. Is that right?

10 Mr. Bowers. Representative, my recollection is that he wanted a committee

11 meeting at the legislature. It was my view that if we're going to have some official

12 outcome to this committee, that we would have to be in session, and that I talked about

13 that.

14 But the committee meeting, the hope was for that so that they could present all of

15 these cases, whatever it was that they had in an official capacity, establish an official

16 record for whatever use they felt that was necessary. That's my -- that was my

17 understanding.

18 Mr. Schiff. And if I understood correctly, you had two strong objections to that?

19 One was you wanted to see some evidence first?

20 Mr. Bowers. That's correct.

21 Mr. Schiff. And, second, in the absence of that evidence, it was going to be

22 impossible to convince enough of the legislature, the two-thirds needed to bring it back

23 into some session?

24 Mr. Bowers. I think -- I had not thought that, but I think that is true. In my

25 view -- see, they have to vote. I can't call them in. We can -- I can say we're going to
 21

1 meet on X date and you'll vote whether you come in or not. They have to vote to come

2 in.

3 And we have only called, I believe, the legislature has called itself into session one

4 time, and that was like in 1981 or -3, and it was to override a veto of the Governor.

5 So I have no practical knowledge of the A, B, C, Ds of calling the legislature into

6 session. And that -- we would just rely on the established protocols, but I knew that I

7 had to have nine Democrats ascent to calling us into session.

8 We had been fighting this battle for over a year on the COVID issue where they

9 wanted me to call them into session, repel the Governor's autocratic rule, et cetera.

10 And this had been a subject of hundreds, thousands of emails over the last period of

11 COVID time when we were out of session, couldn't meet, you know, many of the

12 problems that the whole country was going through.

13 So that point was, again, presented to me that I was just going to call us into

14 session, and I wanted to clarify to him how that would have to happen.

15 Mr. Schiff. And, Mr. Speaker, can you tell us, again, as best you recall exactly

16 what Giuliani -- what his second request was, that is, what he was arguing you could do to

17 either decertify the Biden electors, appoint Trump electors? What was he asking you to

18 do? What did he believe you had the power to do?

19 Mr. Bowers. The bridge between the first point and the second point was me

20 saying: To what end? What's the end? I get the ask of the committee, but to what

21 end? Where are we going with this? What's the end?

22 And he said: Well, we understood that there's this thing where you would be

23 able to decertify.

24 And we got into the second ask.

25 And that was exactly it, that I would decertify because of obvious fraud, you know,
 22

1 things like that.

2 Mr. Schiff. And by "decertify" you mean, he was asking --

3 Mr. Bowers. Decertify the electors' position and decertify the election and allow

4 for the certification of a new slate of electors to go to Washington to represent Arizona

5 and our vote.

6 Mr. Schiff. So his second ask was for you to call the legislature and to decertify

7 the electors for Biden, recertify electors for Trump, and send those to Washington?

8 Mr. Bowers. That's correct. That's as I understood it, yes.

9 Mr. Schiff. And your response to him was what?

10 Mr. Bowers. That's a new one. I'd never heard that one before, you know, as

11 far as some off-the-wall thing. I said: Has that ever been done before?

12 He said: I really don't know. You know, I'm not familiar with Arizona law.

13 He did kind of a pivot.

14 And then I said: You're asking me to do something that has never been done

15 before, that's supposedly constitutional, and I swore an oath to the Constitution of the

16 United States, and I also swore an oath to the constitution and laws of my State, and I'm

17 going to just willy-nilly do this?

18 I said: No. I am not going to. I swore an oath.

19 And I asked: Whose oath should I honor? Should I honor the United States?

20 Should I honor the State? I swore an oath to both.

21 And he said: The United States Constitution trumps -- trumps the State

22 constitution.

23 I said, I was -- I'll admit I was a little bit frustrated by now, and I said: I will not do

24 any such thing without sufficient proof, but also without sufficient -- I'm not going to do

25 this willy-nilly and make some commitment on the phone.

 23

1 I have very good lawyers, and I will discuss this with them before I took any such

2 position.

3 And then we got into: Here's my lawyer's contact information.

4 Mr. Schiff. You mentioned earlier and you had the article and the verse was

5 Article II you mentioned, were you referring to -- which constitution when you were

6 discussing that article?

7 Mr. Bowers. The national -- I understand -- again, I'm no lawyer, but it was the

8 national Constitution --

9 Mr. Schiff. Okay. I didn't know if you had a similar article in Arizona.

10 Mr. Bowers. -- of the United States. It is not in such a position. Anything we

11 would have would not be in that position, and I'm looking at Mr. Pappas, and he's -- I can

12 see he's in agreement with me at least on one thing in my life.

13 Mr. Schiff. During that part of the conversation where you were talking about

14 your oath of office, was it in that context that Mr. Giuliani brought up the fact that you're

15 both Republicans, that he was working you?

16 Mr. Bowers. He never said he was working me.

17 Mr. Schiff. No, I know, but you said he was working you.

18 Mr. Bowers. He would say -- he would say -- and he used this later in another

19 meeting, and I don't want to conflate the two meetings, but he would say, "You know,

20 this is -- this is kind of a hostile reception, we're both Republicans, we're just talking about

21 this kind of thing," which was just kind of to soften my -- to try to soften me down

22 because I admit I was getting exercised.

23 Mr. Schiff. But, in that first conversation in which the President is on the line, did

24 Giuliani also then remind you that you're both Republicans?

25 Mr. Bowers. I believe so: We're both Republicans, you know. We're trying to
 24

1 work together.

2 Mr. Schiff. And, when you said before when you were asked this question by my

3 colleague, that he was working you and you --

4 Mr. Bowers. Oh, that's just my opinion. He didn't say: I'm working you.

5 But, Representative --

6 Mr. Schiff. You were mentioning you had been at this a long time, and you know

7 when you're being worked.

8 Mr. Bowers. Yeah.

9 Mr. Schiff. What did you mean by that?

10 Mr. Bowers. That he was trying to convince me to do something, he was trying

11 to get me to make some commitment to move in his direction.

12 Mr. Schiff. By appealing to your common party?

13 Mr. Bowers. I think there was some appeal to the party, yes. Again, these are

14 just my recollections. I know specifically when we met with him and Jenna Ellis and

15 others a week or so later, he definitely said that more than once, you know: There's no

16 need to be hostile. We're all friends here blah, blah, blah.

17 Mr. Schiff. Got you. I will turn it back to my colleagues. Thank you.

18 Mr. Bowers. Thank you, sir.

19 BY

20 Q So, Speaker Bowers, about a week after that call, Mr. Giuliani appeared with

21 others, I believe Ms. Ellis and others, at, I guess, we've called them hotel hearings.

22 There was something in a hotel ballroom in Phoenix. Are you familiar with that

23 gathering?

24 A I am.

25 Q And that was on the same day that the Governor of Arizona Doug Ducey
 25

1 certified Biden as the winner of the Presidential election in Arizona. Is that consistent

2 with your recollection?

3 A That's correct, I believe.

4 Q Did you attend this, I'll call it a hearing, but this gathering, this proceeding?

5 A I did not.

6 Q Okay. Did you watch it?

7 A I didn't want any part of.

8 Q Did you watch it?

9 A I did not. We had it playing in one of the staff -- on one of the staff

10 televisions, and I heard snippets, but I had other things that I was working on and

11 occasionally someone would say: Man, you should've heard that one, you know, things

12 like that.

13 At one time, I walked through and saw them talking, and I believe -- I believe it

14 was Mr. Giuliani at the time saying something, but I have no recollection of any specific

15 association.

16 Q Okay. The following day after that meeting --

17 - Can I just ask one clarifying question?

18 BY
19 Q Speaker Bowers, the meeting, the legislative committee meeting, that Mr.

20 Giuliani asked you to convene during that first call with President Trump and Mr. Giuliani,

21 is this gathering at the hotel, did that qualify as an official committee meeting of the

22 Arizona legislature?

23 A Absolutely not.

24 Q Why not?

25 A Because there was senators, representatives, and I think there was even
 26

1 couple of nonelecteds that were in the room and participating. It was a weird -- it was

2 just a gathering of people, you know. They were kind of electeds. I'm looking at Mr.

3 Pappas. I don't have a breakdown of everybody who was on that committee there at

4 the hotel, but I do remember there was some -- a couple of senators, Peterson was a

5 senator-elect and Townsend was a senator-elect, Finchem was there.

6 Q Understood.

7 A Mr. Cook was there, I believe. Mrs. Griffin, I believe, was there. Others

8 were there. Both in the room and at the dais.

9 Q Understood. Thank you. So it's fair to say that Mr. Giuliani did not get his

10 first ask that he raised on that phone call with you of official committee meeting, but

11 rather just participated in this unofficial gathering at the hotel ballroom?

12 A He did. He did participate in that gathering, but that is not -- I don't know

13 what he thinks. I never asked him whether he thought it was official, but it certainly

14 wasn't official.

15 Understood. Thank you.

16 B~

17 Q So, after the day after that gathering at the hotel, did you meet with Mr.

18 Giuliani and others?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Were you expecting at that meeting that Mr. Giuliani would provide you

21 with the evidence of fraud that he had promised in your phone call on the 22nd?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Did Mr. Giuliani or anyone on his team provide the evidence that you had

24 requested at that meeting?

25 A No.
 27

1 Q Did you press him for --

2 A I absolutely pressed him.

3 Q And what did he say in response?

4 A He turned, I believe, to his right, and I believe Jenna Ellis was to his right.

5 And I'm looking at you, Mr. Pappas. And he said: Do we have the proof?

6 At some time -- I don't know if you want to talk about that meeting, but

7 specifically the point of proof: Do you have the proof?

8 And she said: We don't have it with us.

9 Q Let me stop you on that for one second to make sure I understand.

10 So Mr. Giuliani had promised you in a November 22nd call that he would get you

11 proof of these claims of election fraud, right?

12 A Correct.

13 Q And the President actually said to him: Rudy, give him the proof. Right?

14 A That's correct, on more than one occasion.

15 Q And, a little over a week later, you were with Mr. Giuliani; again you asked

16 him for the proof, correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And he turned to Ms. Ellis and said: Do we have the proof?

19 A Yes. That is exactly. He said: Do you have the proof? Do we have it

20 with us?

21 She said: No, I don't have it here. I don't have it here.

22 He said: Do you have it?

23 Yes.

24 Will you get it? Will you get it to me?

25 Yes. Oh, yes, we'll get that right away.

 28

1 That kind of thing, you know. I thought somebody's trying to sell me a used car.

2 Q That they didn't even have on the lot?

3 A They certainly didn't have any proof. When he came, he said he would

4 bring the proof. He didn't bring the proof, but he did bring COVID. That's about the

5 only thing that's lasted in Arizona. I've never seen any proof.

6 Q Do you recall any specific allegations? I know there was no proof, but do

7 you recall specific allegations that were made --

8 A Oh, yes.

9 Q -- at this meeting?

10 A Again, I don't remember -- like if he said 6,000 dead people or 60,000 dead

11 people or a huge number of illegal aliens and I mean large. I think one time he said that

12 you have 5 million illegal aliens in this State and Senator Fann said: Rudy, we've only got

13 7 million people in the State. Are you telling me that 5 million of them are illegal aliens?

14 And it was not -- it was not a little Sunday school class meeting. It was a very -- it

15 was a very tough meeting.

16 Q And I think you've referenced --

17 A I'm sorry.

18 Q Go ahead, Speaker Bowers.

19 A I was done.

20 Q I think you said earlier that, in response to Mr. Schiff's questions, that Mr.

21 Giuliani took note of the fact that the -- that it was somewhat of a tense and he called

22 hostile meeting.

23 A At least twice, if not more, but at least twice and specifically would say:

24 Man, I thought we were all Republicans. This is -- this is -- this is a little more hostile a

25 reception. I'm amazed at the reception I'm getting here.

 29

1 Q Was there an ask at this meeting? And, just to be clear, was the meeting

2 on December 1st?

3 A Yes. The Monday -- let's see. It was on December 1st. It was -- it was

4 that -- the Hyatt Regency meeting. I don't believe that was on a Sunday. So I'm not

5 looking at a calendar. I just have notes. November 30th was the unofficial meeting at

6 the Regency, was the day that Governor Ducey and Brnovich canvassed the elections, and

7 it was on the 1st that we met with Mr. Giuliani's team.

8 Q Okay. That's consistent with my understanding as well. I just wanted to

9 make sure that we can use a shorthand for that meeting. So, at this December 1st

10 meeting, was there an ask by Mr. Giuliani?

11 A Well, the general ask was that we would give them a committee hearing.

12 Q Same thing that came up in the call on November 22nd?

13 A Yes. Yes. That was -- I don't think he asked -- I don't recall him asking in

14 that meeting that we recall the electors. I don't recall, but, Andrew, do you have any

15 recollection of that? And I know you're not asking the questions here, but at that point,

16 I do remember he asked for the committee.

17 Q So the same ask -- that was part of the ask on the November 22nd call,

18 correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And you told him that was a nonstarter. It wasn't going to happen because

21 you didn't have a super majority that would agree to call the House back in session?

22 A And I wasn't going to do anything on the second ask until I had legal counsel

23 discuss it, and I needed him to talk to them, which he had not done, which was part of the

24 reason when I walked in that room I wasn't in a great mood anyway because he didn't

25 fulfill any of the things that he said he would do.

 30

1 Q So, when he asked, again, in the December 1st meeting that you call the

2 legislature back into special session, I assume your answer was the same as it was on the

3 call a week or so earlier?

4 A Absolutely. I said: You don't -- you didn't bring me what you said. What

5 I got? I got nothing. So I got things to do. I gotta go.

6 So I got up and left. It wasn't like we walked in, introduced to him, and I left, but

7 I was -- I was done. We weren't going anywhere.

8 Q Okay. Okay. Before we move on, Casey, Mr. Schiff, any questions?

9 A They -- they did -- it may be important. They did hand out I believe it was a

10 one-page, but it might have been front and back of paper purportedly listing the

11 widespread voter irregularities. I did not take the paper, and I left.

12 I'm sorry. Mr. Schiff, I'm sorry, sir.

13 Mr. Schiff. No. Thank you, Speaker. I just wanted to get a better

14 understanding of how this meeting came about. So you have a call with the President

15 and with Mr. Giuliani, and then, some days later, you have a meeting.

16 How did the meeting get arranged, and where did the meeting take place?

17 Mr. Bowers. Thank you. I didn't make the arrangement, but I believe that Ms.

18 Ellis and someone else during the show at the hotel contacted Mr. Pappas and asked if

19 they could -- they really wanted to meet with House and Senate leadership, and could

20 that be arranged?

21 So they had outreached to us, and I don't know -- Mr. Pappas would have to speak

22 for himself how that went, but I do know that we didn't set up the meeting; it was set up

23 through the Senate and that we were -- the meeting idea was broached to us, and I was

24 told that they were going to come and that I should at least -- it might be good to take

25 advantage of their being there and ask him directly.

 31

1 And so we went over and attended the meeting, but the house didn't make the

2 arrangement per se.

3 Mr. Schiff. Where was the meeting held?

4 Mr. Bowers. It was held in the caucus room of the State senate.

5 Mr. Schiff. And at that meeting, there were State senators, some -- and, I'm

6 sorry, do you call it assembly or house?

7 Mr. Bowers. It's the house of representatives, yes, sir.

8 Mr. Schiff. So there were members besides yourself of the house as well as --

9 Mr. Bowers. No. I don't believe I brought any members with me. Just me.

10 And three members of my staff, Mr. Pappas, Mr. Hunter, and Mr. Speck (ph). My staff

11 was there. I'm sorry, sir.

12 Mr. Schiff. How many senators were present?

13 Mr. Bowers. Let's see, according to my notes, one, two, three, four, five

14 senators, and three members of staff, including their general counsel --

15 Mr. Schiff. And so --

16 Mr. Bowers. -- the senate president. So, with the president, one, two, three,

17 four, five six, six senators.

18 Mr. Schiff. So, at this meeting, with Giuliani and his team and some of the

19 members of the senate, including the senate president, Giuliani was essentially

20 reiterating his request for an official committee meeting to look into his allegations of

21 fraud?

22 Mr. Bowers. I remember that. I do remember that among -- and then lots of

23 talking about the allegations of fraud and how they knew that and why we should believe

24 that, et cetera.

25 I will say that the meeting -- I was a minor participant, if it was just by volume of
 32

1 words. Mr. Leech, Senator Leach, was a bulldog in the meeting and really went after

2 him. And I believe it was, after his -- during his approach, that Rudy mentioned, you

3 know: I thought we were kind of -- you know, this was kind of a group of friends here.

4 I'm amazed at the hostility that I feel.

5 Mr. Schiff. And were all the legislators present Republican legislators?

6 Mr. Bowers. That is correct, yes.

7 Mr. Schiff. And Senator Leach, his questions were along the lines that you had

8 been asking, in other words, where's the proof of any of this?

9 Mr. Bowers. I believe not only proof but logistics: How are we supposed to do

10 this? Why would they come to this conclusion?

11 I don't recall all of what he said, and we did not have any transcribing of it, except

12 personal notes, and they -- he was really -- he was really going after Rudy. And I just sat

13 there saying: Good for you, Vince.

14 Mr. Schiff. Sorry. Don't mean to laugh, but so, suffice to say, at this meeting,

15 they presented you with no hard evidence of any of these salacious claims of fraud?

16 Mr. Bowers. They did not. I also -- they had some people who were IT

17 oriented. I have no way of adjudicating the credentials of any person in the room, other

18 than they presented them. And one gentleman had some military who talked about

19 logistics and statistics and how statistically abnormal some of these counts were in States,

20 et cetera. All of it counting on many of the conspiracy theories that had been so

21 prevalent over the last year and a half.

22 Mr. Schiff. And some of these claims were that -- some of these claims that

23 Giuliani was making were so extreme as to suggest that, of the 7 million residents of

24 Arizona, 5 million were illegally in the State and had cast votes?
 33

2 [5:33 p.m.]

3 Mr. Bowers. Yes, that is correct. I'm sorry. Five million were in the State.

4 believe they said it was in the hundreds of thousands of illegal votes cast by aliens, not

5 illegal votes by military personnel or people who were dead or other -- but by

6 alien -- alien presence in the State.

7 Mr. Schiff. And did they ever provide any proof of that?

8 Mr. Bowers. No. I did say, I said: Do you have names? I mean, do you have

9 the names of the illegal aliens in our State?

10 Yes.

11 And then: Have you cross-referenced those so that you know who voted?

12 mean, do you have the names of the illegal aliens? Because their signature is on the

13 outside of the ballot envelope. Did you cross it?

14 Oh, yeah.

15 It was that kind of thing: Yeah, we've got it.

16 And the dead people, you know, who they were? And did -- you have their

17 envelopes? I mean, you have the names? Because we can pull on that envelope.

18 They don't hold it together, but they're available.

19 Oh, yeah, we've got it.

20 I said: But don't you think you ought to give that to me? I want to see it.

21 And, again, I got -- I was just, this is just a -- this is not going to be productive.

22 Mr. Schiff. And, Mr. Speaker, are you still waiting to this day to see that proof?

23 Mr. Bowers. I was promised proof by Boris Epshteyn, what, 3 months ago-ish.

24 I'll say that. In the milieu of the legislative timeframe I'd probably get mixed up. But

25 he called on a Saturday and took some period of time. And I kept saying: You guys
 34

1 have told me for a year and a half I'm going to get the proof. Where is it?

2 And he said: I'll call Finchem. He'll get it to you.

3 And they brought me a document, a couple of -- 3 days later, a pile of documents,

4 about 3 quarters of an inch thick. It had a term paper of Mr. Finchem. It had

5 Mr. Eastman's -- a couple of papers from him, Mr. Mendelson (ph) something. It had a

6 transcript from a committee meeting where Mr. Biggs had spoken and a bunch of transfer

7 sheets from the counting center that were supposedly of some importance, 100 of them

8 to be, I think -- I think that's exactly. There was 100.

9 And I took those to the counting center, and I said: Tell me what this is.

10 And they said: That's transfer sheets.

11 I said: What does that mean?

12 She goes: I don't have the faintest idea.

13 So that was it. That was the proof.

14 Mr. Schiff. And, Mr. Speaker, one last question before I turn it back. In leaving

15 the meeting with Giuliani and the State senators, what did you say when you'd enough

16 and it was time for you to leave?

17 Mr. Bowers. I said: That's -- that -- I'm done. I've got to go.

18 And I stood up, and they all, you know, kind of stood up and kind of started

19 breaking things up. You can feel in a meeting when, you know, we're just running in

20 circles. And I had lots to do, so I stood up and said: I'm out.

21 I did shake hands with the former police commissioner of New York on the way

22 out and mentioned: Hey, wasn't Teddy Roosevelt your predecessor?

23 And he said: Yeah, in fact, he was.

24 I said: Well, good to meet you. See you later.

25 Mr. Schiff. Okay. Mr. Speaker, I'll hand it back to my colleagues.

 35

1 Mr. Pappas. You know, is it all right if we take a quick break? Would that work

2 for you all?

5 Mr. Pappas. Okay. Let me --

6 Do you want to take five? Is that good enough?

7 Mr. Pappas. Five would be great.

8 Okay. So we can reconvene at -- all right, so I'm not seeing the

9 time -- in 5 minutes.

10 - Yeah, 5:40 our time.

11 [Recess.]

12 Let's go back on the record.

13 Mr. Schiff?

14 BY

15 Q I did have one followup question now that we're back on the record. Just

16 one quick followup question for you, Speaker Bowers. At the meeting with Mayor

17 Giuliani and his associates on December 1, did this concept of the, you know, this

18 constitutional provision or other provision of Arizona law that would provide -- would

19 provide you some avenue to decertify the election, was that discussed on December 1st?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Okay. Who raised it?

22 A I don't know if I raised it or they raised it, but the -- the response to

23 Mr. Giuliani was he -- I think he turned to Jenna Ellis and said Jenna is the constitutional

24 lawyer or President's lawyer. I don't know how he referred to her -- and kind of solicited

25 from her her view of how the constitutionality of -- or this theory of law could occur
 36

1 where a President's electors could be replaced. And then she opined, you know. She

2 gave her opinions on the subject.

3 One thing was, because we -- I had pushed for evidence: Have you got the

4 evidence?

5 I remember, I don't know if it was just an off-the-cuff comment or what, but

6 he -- Mr. Giuliani said something like: We have -- we don't have the evidence, but we

7 have lots of theories.

8 And I -- in retrospect, I think, at least he said that right, you know. But it was -- it

9 was something that he had said that we later, we all looked at each other and said: Did

10 he really say that?

11 Yes, he did.

12 So it was an illuminative moment, which he went on at length.

13 And I seem -- you know, as I think of it now, that's one of the things that Lynch

14 really went after was the idea of throwing out the election and -- I'm sorry, not Lynch,

15 Leach, Mr. Leach, Senator Leach, that he really went after that point. That was an

16 exercised point.

17 Q Understood. Thank you.

18 A Thank you.

19 Mr. Schiff?

20 Mr. Schiff. Thank you.

21 Mr. Speaker, on December 4th, you released a statement publicly addressing,

22 quote, calls for the legislature to overturn the 2020 certified election results. The

23 statement was very straightforward in explaining the breathtaking request made by

24 representatives of President Trump, quote, that the Arizona legislature overturn the

25 certified results of last month's election and delivered the State's electoral college votes
 37

1 to President Trump.

2 In that statement you wrote, quote: The rule of law forbids us to do that.

3 Why did you believe that?

4 Mr. Bowers. We had previously -- the legislature had, I would say, transferred,

5 assigned, given to the public the privilege of taking the decision of the electors, I think 35,

6 40 years previously, that the manner of electing them in that instance was given to

7 the -- the -- to the people.

8 And that for me to unilateral -- I would say unilaterally, but it would be to proclaim

9 that the legislature would go back with some supposed plenary authority and remove

10 that fundamental -- per Bush v. Gore -- fundamental right that had been given to the

11 public, to the electors -- I mean, to the, you know, the -- I think we do call them electors,

12 the legitimate electors in our State, people who vote, given to the voters that privilege.

13 And I was -- to me, that would be a direct contrary move, contrary to the

14 legislative action previously taken, and especially in any sense retrospective to go -- to

15 retroactively go back after and remove that right given to the public, that was, to me,

16 beyond the rule of law. I didn't see any other -- nor did I see any other authorized

17 specific authority given to the legislature to take any such action.

18 And that's, as you all -- you know, you've -- you have more experience than I'd

19 ever think to have, but you don't say, well, I don't see that we can't do it so therefore let's

20 just try it, which was also suggested in other -- in another phone call by Mr. Eastman.

21 You know: Why not just do it and let's let the courts check it out.

22 So that mentality is something that's -- was unacceptable to me.

23 Mr. Schiff. So, Mr. Speaker, on Arizona law, decades old at this point, the right

24 to choose the electors belong to the voters in Arizona, and you were not about to

25 essentially substitute a legislative decision for what the voters had decided?
 38

1 Mr. Bowers. That's correct. We could decide moving forward if we wanted to

2 change the laws again or, you know, take that away from them. I think that'd be suicide

3 politically, but not retroactively. That was -- that's crazy.

4 Mr. Schiff. And because that was the law in Arizona, did you feel that doing what

5 the President's team wanted you to do would require you to violate your oath of office?

6 Mr. Bowers. I -- absolutely, at its core, rather than just the superficial reaction,

7 that at its core my position is exactly that, Representative.

8 Mr. Schiff. You also quoted in your statement President Reagan talking about

9 the orderly transfer of authority called for in our Constitution and how this ceremony

10 where we transfer power peacefully in the eyes of the world is nothing less than a

11 miracle. Why did you choose to quote that portion of what Reagan said?

12 Mr. Bowers. Well, my faith, my religion that I hope to display and act, part of a

13 tenet of my faith is that the Constitution -- not like one of the articles of faith, but it is a

14 tenet of belief that the Constitution is divinely inspired. And that sets a different core

15 foundational visceral protective mechanism up in my heart.

16 And if somebody says, I want you to decide to violate your promise because the

17 exigencies of this particular moment, the overwhelming proofs, the demands of the

18 public, whatever it might be that were justified for me to violate that core religious

19 principle, not just my oath, but the core of my being, I will not do that. I will not do that.

20 Mr. Schiff. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I yield back to my colleagues.

21 BY-:

22 Q Speaker Bowers, I want to ask you about some of the sort of negative effects

23 of your taking this position in early December. Is it true that there was some

24 mobilization of folks within Arizona to demand action on the kinds of claims that were

25 being made to you in these phone calls and meetings?

 39

1 A Yes.

2 Q And --

3 A There were all kinds of demonstrations -- I mean, I sound like every other

4 block, no. There were things, mobilizations at the Capitol and people had come to my

5 home, and, of course, lots of email and social media and just vicious, violent,

6 vile -- vile -- over and over to me and other Members of the House of Representatives and

7 elsewhere. Is that what you were referring to?

8 Q Yes, all of that. I want to specifically ask you about an incident on

9 December 3rd. So right within days of --

10 A Oh, yes.

11 Q -- the meetings we're talking about and I guess the day before you -- the

12 press release or the statement that Mr. Schiff just asked you about, "stop the steal"

13 activists took over the State Capitol. Is that right?

14 A That is -- that -- well, they took -- they entered -- the Capitol was closed

15 because of the COVID situation. I was not present. I was in Washington. We had

16 done some GOPAC meetings, and we had also -- I had met with the Ambassador of

17 Romania. My -- the majority leader is a first-generation Romanian, and we had --you

18 know, we took the time to go and see them and -- but we were in the Capitol, your

19 Capitol, in Washington. Our Capitol.

20 But, when I was notified by my chief of staff that they had challenges going on at

21 the Capitol Building, there was a large demonstration, which was not unusual. There

22 was more -- they were regular, it seemed, with some regularity. But that then they said

23 they entered the building, and it was explained to me how, that they brought in food for

24 staff, and when they opened -- there's one set of double doors that is separate from

25 other doors, and they entered. And then, one the person stood in the door, and it has
 40

1 an auto close radar device, and so others were able to run over and enter, and they

2 occupied the lobby of our building.

3 Q Now, I know you -- you said you weren't there, but did you understand that

4 they were asking for you or demanding to speak to you?

5 A Oh, yes. They -- he sent -- he sent -- Michael Hunter, my chief of staff, sent

6 me video clips, two of them at least -- I'm trying to think if there was three, but two of

7 them showing them from a second story balcony. It was very grainy. I couldn't see

8 individual faces from his phone. But they were screaming for -- to speak to me, the

9 speaker, demanding that the speaker make an appearance, and among other things that

10 I -- were muffled and conflated with other conversations and lots of loud voices, et

11 cetera. And the DPS by then had entered the building, our Department of Public Safety

12 personnel, in order to try to control it and ultimately to remove them.

13 Q Later in December, did you have another conversation with President Trump

14 about the election fraud issues?

15 A Yes. No, no. I had another conversation with President Trump.

16 Q Okay.

17 A I was on my front patio and the phone rang, and the lady said: This is the

18 White House. Will you hold for the President?

19 And I said: Of course.

20 And he came on. And it wasn't a real long conversation. In my view, a short

21 conversation is like 10 minutes, but that's even long. And he -- he asked -- and now, this

22 is while everything is still going on. I mean, it's very much active things happening.

23 And the President says: Speaker, how are you doing? How's your family?

24 It was -- in fact, it was, you know, close to Christmas. That vote count stuff was

25 hot and heavy. We were having -- planning to try to find out something from the county
 41

1 people within the week hopefully. And -- but he -- it was -- had nothing -- he didn't say

2 anything about the voting, per se.

3 He said: How are you?

4 You know, we talked about: How are you, Mr. President? How are things

5 going?

6 You know, it's busy, hot, as in energized times.

7 And then he said: I wanted to tell you that I remember what you told me the last

8 time we spoke.

9 And I'm thinking -- I actually thought: Has anybody given him the memo?

10 mean, I'm -- I'm the bad guy. Has anybody bothered to tell the President?

11 And he said: I want you to know that I appreciate your support and the work

12 you did for the campaign, and I just want you to know I'm grateful and wanted to thank

13 you personally.

14 And I thought this was rather surreal. I was -- I responded in kind: Thank you

15 for the call. As I told you, Mr. President, I voted for you. I worked for you.

16 campaigned for you. I just won't do anything illegal for you.

17 And he said: I'm not -- all that, I'm not -- I get it. But I just wanted to thank

18 you. And I hope your family has a Merry Christmas and that you have -- you know, good

19 luck with all you're going through there.

20 And I said: Thank you, Mr. President, and same to you and your family. And I

21 wish you every good thing. And bye.

22 That was it beyond that.

23 Q Did President Trump tell you what part of that prior conversation he was

24 referring to when he said "I remember what you said on our last call"?

25 A He did not. He didn't explain it. I mean, I pounded the issue of -- that I
 42

1 had to follow the Constitution. I remembered that part of our conversation, that I

2 needed proof, and that I hoped that Rudy would give it to me, you know. Those things

3 were in my mind. But I didn't, you know, give any big preach to the President of the

4 United States, but I think the part was that I would not break my oath.

5 Q But your -- your -- that's --

6 A But he never mentioned any specifics.

7 Q Okay. So -- but, in your mind, you assumed that he was referring to you

8 saying that you wouldn't break your oath, but he never said that specifically?

9 A That's correct, he did not.

10 Q Okay. When you said to him in the sort of preliminary part of the call

11 about things being hot, did you specifically tell him that there were protests and that

12 things were getting sort of -- people fairly agitated in Arizona?

13 A I do not specifically remember any specific reference to any of the difficulties

14 that I was facing of any kind. I said, you know, it's just -- it's crazy. Things are going

15 crazy out here, you know, kind of thing. It was a lighter tenor in the conversation.

16 BY-

17 Q Just one followup question, Speaker Bowers. I think you said that, in your

18 comments back to the President during this second phone call, you said, you know, that

19 you were not going to do anything illegal for him.

20 A That's correct. I did mention that.

21 Q And how did he respond?

22 A He said: I don't want you to.

23 I mean, that was -- it was that type of response. It wasn't: Well, you know,

24 have you ever thought of this or try to pivot to convince me to do anything else, just

25 straight up --
 43

1 Q Okay.

2 A -- I understand.

3 Q Did he -- did he try to tell you that what he was asking of you was not illegal?

4 A He never mentioned anything about what he asked, from my recollection,

5 which is why it was kind of surreal to me. I thought, wow.

6 Q Okay. Thank you.

7 BY

8 Q On December 4th, did you have a call with John Eastman, another attorney

9 working for the President on his efforts to oppose the election results?

10 A Yes.

11 Q How did that call come about?

12 Mr. Pappas. I'm sorry. I just want to interject. I think that you asked the

13 question whether it was on December 4th. I think you meant January.

14 BY

15 Q Thank you, Counsel. I did misspeak.

16 On January 4th, you had a call with Mr. Eastman?

17 A I do remember speaking with Mr. Eastman. I'm not -- let me -- yes, I see it

18 in my notes. Yes, that meeting did occur.

19 Q How did that call come about?

20 A We had been pressed by Mr. Finchem and others for me to talk to

21 Mr. Eastman, Mr. Mendelson (ph) to -- in the hopes of convincing me of the

22 constitutional quality of taking an action about having a committee meeting or

23 doing -- now, it was shifted more to -- let's see -- yes, more to the electors, and that there

24 was this, you know, high-level legal minds and decisions on this, not court decisions, but

25 legal decisions, you know, thoughts, papers, and that I should talk to John Eastman, one
 44

1 of the highest constitutional lawyers in the country. And so I said, sure. I shouldn't say

2 I said sure. That sounds flippant. I acquiesced. I said: I would like to know if there

3 is any evidence that anybody has and if there's any legal precedence or thoughts on the

4 issue.

5 And that -- and so Mr. Eastman -- I don't know John Eastman, but I was told

6 Mr. Pappas knew Mr. Eastman from sometime back in California when he was a

7 candidate for attorney general, knew him from other associations. And he talked to me

8 about the man, and that he was, you know, he had a reputation, and that it would be

9 good at least to hear it. I mean, he would -- nobody was a cheerleader for the

10 conversation, but -- I mean, on my staff. There were cheerleaders but not from my

11 staff. And so we took that call.

12 Q Can you describe the phone call for us?

13 A It was lengthy. And --

14 Q Well, how about a very high-level summary of what was covered in the call

15 with Mr. Eastman on January 4th.

16 A Well, one of the things was about what the plenary power of authority of the

17 legislature would be and where we would secure that. We talked about the -- the only

18 other kind of a close decision in the area of Article II was the Hawaii case with President

19 Nixon and Mr. -- and President Kennedy and how those two competing groups ended up

20 being a factor.

21 And -- but the -- but the principle that I -- we -- I talked about was that, as it was

22 explained, I said, but the issue wasn't whether or not there was fraud; the issue was -- is

23 that -- well, there might have been. Who knows. The issue was that you had a

24 recount, a mandatory recount because the vote was within the margin of error, or it was

25 within the margin of Hawaiian law, and so they had a recount. And, in the recount, the
 45

1 vote flipped.

2 And so now you had already chosen one group and now another one went back,

3 and how ironic it was that the Vice President would be the President of the Senate and

4 would take the decision and chose for Kennedy, and -- but that showed -- it was the

5 pleading of Mr. Eastman that that showed that the powers of the legislature were such

6 that they could reach into that arena.

7 And we talked about how much illegal evidence would have to be present just to

8 decertify or to -- and the timeline when that would have to happen. We talked about

9 the investigations being ongoing; we haven't yet determined whether any illegal votes

10 even affected the outcome, and yet we should take this decision, and that shouldn't we

11 at least get some resolution to the amount of fraud necessary in order to even get the

12 resolution to decertify the electors?

13 And a lot of things were talked -- and his general outtake was that: It's a difficult

14 decision. It's -- but the power does lie with you.

15 And I said: But it doesn't lie with me solely. It's -- again, back to Arizona law

16 and how you can't just pull yourself into session.

17 And I'm sure he understood that nine Democrats weren't going to come marching

18 down there and vote to decertify their own President's candidate or the electors and how

19 it's impossible.

20 And he said, well, then -- I think part of the discussion was: Well, don't use

21 them. You don't need them. You just need a majority. Call a majority together.

22 That's a majority of the legislature. Take the decision. Let the courts sort it out.

23 And --

24 Q So --

25 A Go ahead.
 46

1 Q Can I interrupt you there? I want to break down some of the things that

2 you said there. When you -- when you -- let me ask you this way. Did you tell

3 Mr. Eastman in the call that you had still not received the proof of the claims of fraud that

4 had been made and even though it had been promised to you by Mr. Giuliani on multiple

5 occasions?

6 A I -- it would make sense that I did, because I kept saying when are we going

7 to get this proof to everybody.

8 I got a notice that my battery is running low and so my image is going to stall for

9 just a second while I put this thing in.

10 - Go right ahead.

11 - Let's go off the record for just a second.

12 [Recess.]

13 BY
14 Q We'll go back on the record.

15 A Again --

16 Q So, Speaker Bowers, did -- how did Mr. Eastman respond when you told him

17 that you still didn't have proof of the claims of election fraud that you had been

18 demanding?

19 A I think he kind of laid out a course of steps of what they would -- of what was

20 being asked in this conversation. It wasn't only a conversation to inform me. It was a

21 conversation to get somewhere.

22 Q So what were the --

23 A The first was that we would -- that we would certify an alternative slate -- an

24 alternate slate of electors and that if there isn't enough evidence of illegal votes to throw

25 the election to Biden and that he was asking to certify another slate of electors.
 47

1 Q Was there some alternative that he offered or suggested?

2 A And then the second was, if investigations -- I'm reading from the note: If

3 investigations are ongoing and the legislature can't yet determine whether illegal votes

4 affected the outcome of the election, then at least get a resolution that decertifies the

5 existing slate.

6 So both -- both one and two focused on a justification of sorts to decertify. And

7 then, if that wasn't enough, that at least -- we -- Mr. Finchem had passed around a letter,

8 which I vociferously and strongly asked my colleagues, please, get off the letter campaign

9 where everybody has to -- is being asked to sign on whatever it might be to asking

10 this -- the counties to do that, sending a letter to Congress. This just divides us and

11 hurts -- it's going to be used in campaigns that you didn't do this and you didn't do that

12 and why didn't you stand up -- so that -- here we came again that I would -- I was being

13 asked by Eastman to sign a letter from Mr. Finchem that he had circulated asking

14 Mr. Pence to not certify the election and to do that before the 6th of January. That was

15 the third ask. If you can't decertify them or are not willing to decertify them, blah, blah,

16 blah, at least be willing to sign on to ask Pence not to certify until sufficient information

17 can be obtained in the lack of evidence, you know, at least hold it off, it's too quick type

18 of thing.

19 B

20 Q Thank you, Speaker Bowers. And did you respond to Mr. Eastman's

21 suggestions of these possible courses of action for you in a similar manner as you did

22 when similar suggestions were made by Mr. Giuliani, including on that first phone call

23 with President Trump?

24 A Yes. Again, we went through my oath and that I wasn't going to

25 experiment with my oath, that I -- that mentality. I wasn't going to play with the oath of
 48

1 office, that I could see that the explanation, there is a part of the Constitution that might

2 be construed to give an authority. It's never been used. And now it's the time for me

3 to have the courage to stand up and declare what it means, and that I was going -- me

4 and my State, we were going to take this previously unused stance at a time of enormous

5 consequence, and that I wasn't going to do that, that in the absence of proof that would

6 get me even pause that I wasn't going to take such an action.

7 Q And, notwithstanding your response to Mr. Eastman, Speaker Bowers, did he

8 nonetheless still encourage you to take some action and allow the courts to sort it out?

9 A That is correct. He just said: Well, just do it and let the courts sort it

10 through. Let it work through the courts.

11 And I just said: Yeah, I'm not going to do that. I appreciate, you know, the call,

12 et cetera, but we're not going to -- I'm not going to play with my State, and I'm not going

13 to play with the oath. We're not going to do that.

14 Q Understood. I'm sorry --

15 A And so that was it. I did ask him --

16 Q Speaker Bowers, our connection is not very good right now --

17 A -- okay. Can you hear me?

18 Q Yes. That's much better. We see you now.

19 A Okay.

20 Q We lost just a little bit of your answer. I know that you were responding to

21 my question, that I believe I heard you say that Mr. Eastman did recommended that you

22 nonetheless take some action and allow the courts to sort it out. And I believe that I

23 heard you say that he encouraged you to just do it and let them -- let the --

24 A Yes. Just go ahead, just do it and let the courts -- I said: Seriously, with all

25 that we've talked about, really, what would you recommend that I would do?
 49

1 And he said: I would just do it and let the courts sort it out.

2 I said: We're not going to do that. I'm not going to take that.

3 Q Understood. Just two other quick questions about that call, Speaker

4 Bowers: One, did Mr. Eastman represent himself to be representing President Trump

5 in -- when he spoke with you?

6 A Whether he did or not, I understood that he was one of Mr. Trump's

7 counsel, a team, a counsel, yes.

8 Q Okay. Thank you.

9 A I don't remember him saying "I'm President Trump's lawyer," but he -- he

10 may have, but I totally understood him to be representing him -- representing the

11 President's position and the White House.

12 Q Okay. Thank you.

13 And at any time either on this phone call with Mr. Eastman or in any of your other

14 discussions with folks representing or associated with President Trump, did any of them

15 ever raise the prospect of there already being a Trump slate of electors, that the electors

16 for Trump and Pence had, in fact, met in Arizona on December 14th and signed

17 documents purporting to represent the duly elected electors from Arizona?

18 A Is the question that in a conversation with Giuliani or Eastman or any of

19 them that that point came up, no.

20 Q Okay. Were --

21 A It didn't seem to be important. I knew about these things in the general

22 course of reporting and in the -- you know, learning -- going through this process in a very

23 heightened way, but, no, it was never mentioned to any particular end that I recall.

24 Q Okay. And what was your assessment having learned that there

25 were -- that there was this slate of Trump-Pence electors who had met in Phoenix and,
 50

1 you know, purported to cast votes to elect Trump and Pence in the electoral college, what

2 was your assessment of whether that was legal or appropriate?

3 A I thought it was totally foolish and -- but it falls right in line with some of the

4 activities that I've heard about in this State and other States. But that was

5 presumptuous and foolish, and I thought -- I didn't -- I did not support such a thing, that's

6 for sure.

7 Q Understood. And is it fair to say that you did not think that they had any

8 legal effect?

9 A So far from it that it would be a charade. It was a charade to me. And it

10 was -- it just reinforced that the train gets rolling and it's like people don't realize they're

11 on a train and that they ought to be pulling the brakes or getting off this train, but it just

12 keeps right on rolling. So what's the next thing that we could do on our crazy train?

13 And I get it -- I get a little flippant. I'm sorry. I know this is -- I just think that

14 these things are -- it's almost juvenile our responses, that -- we elected an elector, yet I'm

15 going to just say: Hey, I think I'll be an elector, and I'll just head on down there and sign

16 up.

17 None of them were even elected. Who would elect them? We didn't have an

18 election. It was just -- so how one might volunteer to take the place of duly elected

19 electors, I'm -- I wish it hadn't been that way. I wish that the original electors for Trump,

20 that's not the point. They were Mr. Biden's -- okay. It was -- it was foolish. It was

21 very foolish.

22 Q Understood. Thank you for that. We appreciate your perspective.

23 BY
24 Q I want to move to a separate -- or another phone conversation that you had,

25 Speaker Bowers, and that's a couple days later on January 6th. Did you get a call from
 51

1 Representative Andy Biggs that morning?

2 A I don't -- it probably was the morning. I don't remember the time, but it

3 was that day and, yes, I did.

4 Q What did Mr. Biggs call you about?

5 A He wanted to ask if I would consider decertifying the electors and that if I

6 would agree to their decertification. And I said -- now, I know Andy a long time. And I

7 said: Of course not. No, I won't do that.

8 And he said: But they -- but the manner of the election of the electors was

9 compromised.

10 I said: I -- it was. I believe it was when the Federal judge -- that's the only

11 piece. But it wasn't compromised in any -- to any degree that you could present that in

12 a court of law and have somebody to say, yeah, that -- you know, one person cheated in

13 my -- in this election. Let's throw it all out because we compromised the manner of the

14 election. It has to be substantive. It has to be massive. It has to be quantifiable.

15 You have to know that people changed from Biden to Trump or vice versa, and

16 you have to show it in -- with a judicial -- a judicial high bar of evidence.

17 Andy, no, I won't do it. I'm not going to do it.

18 He didn't push it. He said: Well, they did compromise it. You know it was

19 compromised.

20 I said: Yes, it was, but not -- not sufficient to cover the gap of 10,457 votes.

21 Q And when Representative Biggs said, "Well, you know, it was compromised,"

22 was he referring to the same extended registration period issue --

23 A Yes.

24 Q -- that you talked about earlier?

25 A That is correct. The extended registration period.

 52

1 Q There was --

2 A We talked about it in fraud, and I said: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. There

3 is only one place that I think that the manner of electing electors was compromised, and

4 that was by the Federal judge who pushed the registration period into the voting periods,

5 and that's contrary to Arizona law, and that's contrary to the manner.

6 But it was for 5 days, and before they could get it all stopped, I think it was almost

7 10 days. Within that period of time, I asked: Is there any way we can know

8 who -- who all was involved and how many, et cetera, et cetera.

9 My initial recollection was that there were not enough registrations that one

10 might consider would vote for Trump or Mr. Biden enough to cover the gap.

11 Q Understood. I think you mentioned this earlier, and I just want to ask you if

12 you could provide a little bit more detail on it. And I don't mean to sort of dwell on a

13 situation that I'm sure was troubling for you, but you mentioned the fact of protesters

14 calling between election day and January 6th being quite active and harassing of you.

15 Can you tell us a little bit about what that involved?

16 A Well, aside from the Capitol, because at the Capitol there was a constant

17 presence, including a guy that walks -- strolled into the Senate and stood up on the dais,

18 the QAnon Shaman dude. He was -- I was one of his favorite targets for his rhetoric at

19 the Capitol.

20 But, when we came to my home, when people started showing up at my home

21 with bullhorns and with loud speakers and with panel trucks with videos on the side and

22 with a large military looking civilian vehicle and lines of cars honking and screaming and

23 then crowding at the end of my driveway, and I'll just say irritating, but it was a real pain

24 to all my neighbors. They'd come down and say, "Rusty, I am -- I am so far different

25 from you than the man on the moon politically, I'm as liberal as you could ever be, but I
 53

1 know you're not a pedophile," which was one of the things that they'd put up on their

2 video trucks as they went by.

3 And this was -- I couldn't ever -- I never went out to interview them and say:

4 Now, exactly who sent you today?

5 But part of it was from a group called the Patriot Party of Arizona. They'd call

6 themselves that and have tried to become a separate party. A Daniel McCarthy, he was

7 very active in agitating on social media and in person, et cetera. There were the

8 people -- different groups. I know that he specifically did that, but I -- again, I don't

9 know all of who came or why. I just know they came.

10 And, ultimately, that went over a period of months with some regularity, you

11 know. I think there was nine times totally that they came, with the ninth time being

12 rather recent. But it was -- I have a whole different view. I have been in some

13 situations in my life, pretty tough. And they just seemed like unhinged, you know, the

14 screaming and the yelling and the loudspeakers broadcasting my perversions to the

15 neighborhood and that I was, you know, horrible, on the take, corrupt, all this.

16 When they stopped, when actual people got out and started to come on my

17 property, I would say, "Don't come on my property," you know, loudly. They kept

18 coming: Don't come on my property. Go back.

19 And they never rushed the place. They did -- somebody did come in and cut my

20 Christmas lights, you know. Okay. That's pretty juvenile. And it wasn't like antifa.

21 They were -- you know, might get a little more directed. But the police would always

22 come. They had spotters. So, when they spotted the police, they would call, and

23 everybody would kind of flee like quail.

24 And then -- but one -- at the end, there was a gentleman, a Three Percenter. He

25 had it on his T-shirt. It was on his car, and he had a pistol. And when I -- I was already
 54

1 so close but not close enough, and so I got closer. I got closer, because if he pulled that

2 out, I had to be close enough to get on him. I mean, why would I even have to think

3 that standing on my own property, but that's what I thought. And just vain, vile,

4 screaming at me and my neighbors.

5 And so then one of them, a lady hit my neighbor with her car, and he flipped up

6 on the hood, and she just kept right on going. And, later on, she sent the police because

7 he damaged her car. We'd say: Well, that's cool. We -- she came to you. That's

8 the lady that hit my neighbor, you know.

9 It just was so -- it was -- and the cops would say: Did you ever feel threatened?

10 I said: Well, yeah.

11 My wife said: Yeah, I did.

12 And, at the same time, we had a daughter who was very, very ill and inside and

13 wondering what was all the noise and causing her disruption and angst. And the whole

14 thing was just -- it was very unsettling.

15 I never felt like I was in imminent danger, per se, but in those situations all it takes

16 is one of them to think: I'm going to prove that I'm a great patriot and so I'm going to

17 pull out a gun and shoot this guy.

18 I mean, those thoughts came to my mind because they have happened. And so

19 that's, you know -- it was unsettling.

20 Q And has this continued, I mean, past January 2021?

21 A Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

22 Q To this day?

23 A Well, none recently. The last one was a couple of months ago-ish. You

24 know, I don't -- I have a journal somewhere, but I don't have it with me. And it

25 broke -- it ebbed off for a while, but it just became less frequent. There is only nine in
 55

1 total, so, you know, every couple of weeks it would happen in the January,

2 February -- December, January, February timeline.

3 And that's the same time that they were doing a recall on me, the same group,

4 and so they would -- I read on their social media they would meet and talk about the

5 recall and who was going where, and then let's all go up and make a presence at

6 Mr. Bowers' house.

7 One time -- our church physically sits on a major arterial leading to my home, and

8 we were having a church Christmas function. Yeah, it was. Anyway, it was at the

9 church. And I was acting out a scriptural character with a costume standing on the wall

10 at the church, and here they come on their way to my house.

11 And I'm -- and I said: I've got to interrupt this program for a special news bulletin

12 from my sponsor.

13 And I called up my wife, and I said: They're on the way. Call MCSO, the

14 Maricopa County Sheriff's Office. They're headed for the house in a big, long line of cars

15 with the Trump signs and the flags and everybody was going by headed up there.

16 And, sure enough, that's where they were. But it was disruptive.

17 Q So, Speaker Bowers, you seem just remarkably sort of calm in discussing this

18 horrific stuff that was happening to you and your family. You've -- people have called

19 you heroic and courageous for the actions that you took in the aftermath of the 2020

20 election. Do you see it that way?

21 A No.

22 Q Why not?

23 A I'm just doing -- what would -- what would some -- what would I

24 expect -- what would I expect as a voter of somebody that I'd elected? My job is to

25 protect them. I choose for them. They give me the right to choose for them. And,
 56

1 yeah, some people might run away. It was -- my wife wasn't running out there in the

2 street, and I don't blame her. But I was mad. It made me upset that they

3 would -- especially with my daughter being sick. I mean, as you know, she passed away.

4 But who are these people that they would do this to America? Is this what civil

5 discourse means nowadays? Have we got that bad that we have to act this way? It's

6 just -- so when I get that way, I just say: It's like, okay, I'm on, game on, I'm out.

7 And so -- but I don't consider myself heroic. Heroic are police and other people

8 who've suffered so horribly in the last 2 years, you know, that you and I all know about,

9 but --

10 Q Yeah.

11 A I -- I had a job. I promised that I would do it, and I wasn't going to let

12 somebody bully me away from that. Bullies, if there was -- if I was allowed to hate by

13 my faith -- and I'm not, but let's just keep it general -- I hate a bully. I -- and I've had

14 plenty of time in my life where that was a very front and center altercation, but I was not

15 going to be bullied, and I wasn't going to let the weak people around me be bullied.

16 just am going to do it, so I did.

17 Q Thank you, Speaker Bowers. And thank you for your, I will say, heroism

18 and courage.

19 Mr. Schiff?

20 Mr. Schiff. Yes. Speaker Bowers, I just want to say before we conclude how

21 much I appreciate your public service to your constituents in Arizona and, more than that,

22 your service to the whole country. I think you're a great role model as a public servant,

23 and I just wanted to thank you.

24 Mr. Bowers. Well, I appreciate that. You're kind to say that. May I say, I'm

25 just a witness. You asked me to tell to my best recollection, which I'm sorry I'm so old
 57

1 and I'm falling apart, but I'm just a witness of what happened to me and try to be

2 objective because I do feel the country is at a very delicate part where this veneer of

3 civilization is thinner than my fingers pressed together.

4 And, if this is acceptable that our discourse -- and, Representative Schiff, I can't

5 say that I'm happy with what's happened the last 2, 3, 4 years. But all of us -- and I'm

6 not a minister or a preacher, but all of us have to consider what the amplified effects of

7 our actions are across our country and especially at times like this. This is when we

8 really need to be thoughtful and be more calm and less emotional. And I'm -- so that's

9 enough of my preaching. I'm sorry.

10 Mr. Schiff. Well, I -- no, don't apologize, and I quite agree with you, I really do,

11 about all of your concerns and your warning. I think it needs to be heeded by all of us,

12 and thank you.

13 Mr. Bowers. You're welcome, sir.

14 - Speaker Bowers, thank you so much. Unless you have anything else

15 that you want to add, we've gone longer than I predicted today, and I apologize for that.

16 And I really -- we really do appreciate your taking the time on short notice, on Sunday, on

17 Father's Day, to be here and answer our questions.

18 Mr. Bowers. Well, I -- I feel that it's an honor to be a part of a process to review

19 all of this. And I -- but I'm not a pro or a con. I'm just a witness. I'm against bullying

20 and emotional violence against anybody, especially over the sacredness of our vote, so

21 thank you.

22 - Thankyou.

23 Ms. Lucier. Thank you.

24 - And we can go off the record.

25 [Whereupon, at 6:37 p.m., the interview was concluded.]

 58

1 Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee

4 I have read the foregoing _ _ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the

5 answers made by me to the questions therein recorded.

10 Witness Name

11

12

13

14 Date

15