1

4 SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE

5 JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL,

6 U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

7 WASHINGTON, D.C.

10

11 INTERVIEW OF: IVANKA TRUMP

12

13

14

15 Tuesday, April 5, 2022

16

17 Washington, D.C.

18

19

20 The interview in the above matter was held via Webex, commencing at 10:02 a.m.

21 Present: Representatives Luria, Aguilar, Schiff, Lofgren, Murphy, Raskin, Cheney,

22 and Kinzinger.
 2

2 Appearances:

5 For the SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE

6 THE JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL:

8 STAFF ASSOCIATE

9 , DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR

10 , INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

11 , SENIOR COUNSEL

12 , STAFF ASSOCIATE

13 SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

14 , CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

15 INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

16 , CHIEF CLERK

17 STAFF ASSOCIATE

18 , INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

19 PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER

20 , CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER

 3

1 For IVANKA TRUMP:

3 DANIEL R. BENSON, ESQ.

4 JONATHAN GONZALES, CASE MANAGER

5 Kasowitz Benson Torres

6 1633 Broadway

7 New York, NY 10019

 4

2 All right. Good morning, everyone.

3 This is a transcribed interview of lvanka Trump, conducted by the House Select

4 Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol pursuant to

5 House Resolution 503.

6 At this time, I would like to ask the witness to please state her full name and spell

7 her last name for the record.

8 Ms. Trump. lvanka Marie Trump, T-r-u-m-p.

9 Thank you, Ms. Trump. Good morning.

10 This will be a staff-led interview. My name i s - - - it's

11 - - - and I'm the chief investigative counsel for the select committee. I'm

12 joined today by , who is an investigative counsel for the select committee,

13 and , who is a professional staff member.

14 Now, members of the select committee may be joining us, coming and going via

15 the Webex platform, during the course of our discussion. If any of them choose, they of

16 course may ask questions.

17 For you, Ms. Trump, I will note, to the best that I can, when they join the meeting

18 so you'll know that members of the committee are present. I don't believe at this point

19 any of them have joined.

20 . , is that right?

21 That's correct.

22 I don't see anyone. Okay. But I'll let you know if we have

23 members who join.

24 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

25 - At this point, Ms. Trump, I'd ask your lawyer, Mr. Benson, to please
 5

1 introduce himself.

2 Mr. Benson. Daniel Benson, Kasowitz Benson Torres, for lvanka Trump.

3 All right. Thank you, Mr. Benson.

4 So, before we begin with the interview, Ms. Trump, I'd like to just describe a few

5 ground rules.

6 There is an official reporter -- actually, several official reporters who will be

7 transcribing a record of the interview. You and your attorney will have an opportunity

8 to review the transcript and suggest any corrections before it's finalized. As you know,

9 this is also being recorded via the Webex platform, but I will note that the court

10 reporters' transcript is the official record of the proceedings.

11 I'd ask that you wait until each question is completed before you begin your

12 response, and we will try to wait until your response is complete before we ask our next

13 question. The stenographer cannot record nonverbal responses, such as shaking your

14 head, so it's important that you answer each question with an audible, verbal response.

15 Although this interview is not under oath, I want to remind you that it is unlawful

16 to deliberately provide false information to Congress. That's not a specific instruction

17 for you; that's something we tell all witnesses, and I want to make sure you understand

18 that.

19 Ms. Trump. Understood.

20 - It's important that you understand each of our questions and are

21 able to answer them to the best of your ability, so please don't hesitate to ask us to

22 repeat a question if it is not clear.

23 Similarly, if you don't know the answer to the question, you can say that you don't

24 know or don't recall. But keep in mind that, while you are not under oath, you do have

25 an obligation to be truthful. So, if you do recall the answer to a question, you must say
 6

1 so.

2 You may also refuse to answer a question pursuant to a privilege that is

3 recognized by the select committee. If you refuse to answer a question based on a

4 privilege, the staff may either proceed with the deposition or seek a ruling from the chair

5 on the objection. If the chair overrules such an objection, you are required to answer

6 the question.

7 If you need to consult with your counsel at any time during the interview, that is

8 no problem. We can take a brief break for you to confer in private. If you need that at

9 any point, either to confer with Mr. Benson or if you need a break for another reason, just

10 say so, and we can stop. We really want to make this as accommodating and easy for

11 you as possible.

12 All right. Do you have any questions, Ms. Trump, for us before we begin?

13 Ms. Trump. I do not.

14 Okay.

15 I believe now Mr. Schiff is here, Ms. Cheney is here, and Mrs. Luria. So the vice

16 chair, Ms. Cheney, and two other members of the select committee have joined us.

17 Ms. Trump. Good morning.

18 ~ All right. Ms. Trump, let's go ahead, then, and get started --

19 Ms. Cheney. I just wanted to say good morning - - sorry. I just wanted to

20 say good morning.

21 Ms. Trump. Good morning.

22 Ms. Cheney. Thank you for being here with us. Appreciate it.

23 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

24 Thanks, Ms. Cheney.

25 EXAMINATION
 7

1 BY

2 Q So, Ms. Trump, you are here voluntarily. I want to start out by making that

3 clear. You're not here pursuant to a subpoena. You are here because we invited you

4 to come voluntarily and you said yes. Is that right?

5 A Correct.

6 Q All right.

7 I want to show you, just for the record, the letter that we sent you. This is

8 exhibit No. 1.

9 And throughout the course of the interview, Ms. Trump, we'll show some

10 documents on the screen so that you can see them. We sent them to Mr. Benson in

11 advance, and you may have hard copies or other versions.

12 But, just to be clear, we sent you this letter back on January the 20th, which

13 invited you to appear before the select committee voluntarily. And you have accepted

14 that invitation, and that's the reason that you're here today?

15 A That is correct.

16 Q Okay.

17 The letter also asked if you would search for and provide any documents that you

18 might have in your possession that would be relevant to the select committee's inquiry.

19 Have you had a chance to do that, to look for and produce any documents?

20 A I have.

21 Q Okay. And I understand you produced a couple of text messages through

22 Mr. Benson to the select committee a couple of days ago. Is that right?

23 A Correct.

24 Q Okay.

25 The select committee's exhibit No. 2, if I could show you now, is a letter that we
 8

1 just received from the White House Counsel's Office. This is addressed to Mr. Benson.

2 It's dated March 28th.

3 And it indicates that the current President, President Biden, has determined that

4 an assertion of executive privilege is not in the national interest. It's, therefore, not

5 justified with respect to particular subjects within the purview of the select committee.

6 Do you recall receiving this letter through your lawyer from the White House

7 Counsel?

8 A I have not seen this letter before, but I'm sure my lawyer has.

9 Q Okay. It just reflects that President Bide n's White House Counsel has

10 indicated that it would not be appropriate to assert, in their view, any assertion of

11 executive privilege. Do you understand that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Okay.

14 So let's talk a little bit about documents. Did you have, during your time working

15 in the White House, an official White House email account?

16 A I did.

17 Q Okay. And was that [email protected]?

18 A Correct.

19 Q I see. Okay. Was that your only official White House email account?

20 A It was. There was another account that was not linked to me but that was

21 erroneous under, I think it was ivanka@who, but I never received any correspondence to

22 that.

23 Q I see. So the IMT address is the one that you used regularly for official

24 business at the White House?

25 A Correct.
 9

1 Q I see. Okay.

2 Did you also have a personal email account?

3 A I do.

4 Q Did you ever use the personal email account to conduct any official

5 business?

6 A Not confidential business. But no.

7 Q Okay.

8 And did you have an email account that was associated with your father's

9 reelection campaign, a Trump election email account?

10 A No.

11 Q Okay.

12 Have you searched, Ms. Trump, any -- whether you have possession of the White

13 House email account -- probably not -- but did you search the personal email account for

14 any potentially relevant and responsive documents that you might have pursuant to this

15 letter?

16 A I did.

17 Q Okay. And did you find anything that would be responsive?

18 A I sent through everything we thought was either responsive or bordered on

19 being responsive.

20 Q Got it. I appreciate that. Okay.

21 Let's talk about phones. Did you have a White House-issued cellular phone

22 during your time working in the White House?

23 A I did.

24 Q Okay. Did you use that for both voice calls and text messages?

25 A The text-message function was not enabled on the White House phone until
 10

1 maybe the third year. But during this relevant time period, I did have that functionality

2 on my phone.

3 Q I see. Okay. And do you still have any possession of any of the -- I

4 assume, when the administration ended, you returned the handset and don't have access

5 to it anymore. Is that right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Okay.

8 How about personal cell phone? I assume you also possessed and used a

9 personal cell phone?

10 A I did.

11 Q Okay. And did the number there on your personal phone end inllll?

12 A It does.

13 Q Okay. And did you use that for any work-related calls or text messages?

14 A Not that I would define as strictly work-related. Oftentimes for

15 coordination of my personal schedule with the caretaker of my children and telling them

16 what I would be doing and, obviously, corresponding periodically with my husband and

17 friends.

18 Q I understand. Okay. And did you have a chance to search that phone,

19 anything that's still included in it, for anything that would be responsive to our request?

20 A I did.

21 Q Okay. And I understand the things that you did produce came from that

22 personal device. Is that right?

23 A I believe so. It's the only device I have access to.

24 Q Okay.

25 And I take it, then, that you didn't have a campaign-issued phone, a third device
 11

1 that you used?

2 A I did not.

3 Q Okay.

4 Did your father, President Trump, have a White House-issued cell phone during

5 the 4 years that he was President?

6 A I believe so.

7 Q Okay. Did you communicate with him using that official White House

8 device?

9 A I would call him on the number that was provided to me, oftentimes being

10 connected via his assistant or the switchboard.

11 Q I see. Okay. Did he have the text -- I assume he had the text functionality

12 on his phone, as you did, on the official White House phone?

13 A I don't know. I've never texted with him.

14 Q Okay. I see. Do you know whether or not he did use text messaging with

15 any device? Was that something, a mode of communication that he used periodically?

16 A I have never heard of him using text message.

17 Q Okay. And you haven't had any personal text exchanges with him?

18 A Never.

19 Q Okay.

20 Did you also use any messaging applications, like Signal or Telegram or WhatsApp

21 or any of those, for White House-related official business?

22 A No.

23 Q Okay.

24 All right. And have you, Ms. Trump, provided all of your devices, all of your

25 Presidential records to the Archives upon the completion of your service in the White
 12

1 House?

2 A I have.

3 Q Okay.

4 A And anything even questionable on a personal device relating to logistics or

5 schedule I would screenshot and email it over, per White House Counsel.

6 Q Okay. You're anticipating my next question. Who, when you were there

7 in the White House, gave you instruction about the requirements of the statute and the

8 necessity of maintaining Presidential records?

9 A White House Counsel's Office.

10 Q I see. Okay. Did they give you at the beginning any kind of training or,

11 sort of, primer on the requirements of the statute?

12 A They gave the staff training. There was, I believe, a required course.

13 There was also email communication to this effect. I noted earlier that there

14 was an errant email address for me that for some period of time White House Counsel

15 was sending their proforma notifications to, and I was not receiving them. But

16 ultimately that was corrected and they were given my -- or they fixed in the system my

17 email address.

18 Q I see. Okay.

19 And if you had a question over the course of your time in the White House about

20 the Presidential Records Act, White House Counsel was, sort of, the place to go to get

21 clarification or to get those questions answered?

22 A I believe so, yes.

23 Q How about at the end? Was there a, sort of, explicit effort to gather all

24 materials that would be Presidential records pursuant to statute and ensure that they

25 were provided to the Archives?

 13

1 A I don't recall if there was an express effort or a continuation of the practice

2 we had been undertaking.

3 Q I see. Okay. So, at the very end of your service, tell me sort of generally

4 what you did to ensure the provision of those materials to the Archives.

5 A What I'd been doing all along. Anything that was required to be submitted

6 was.

7 Q Okay. And, again, submitted how? Did you send that to White House

8 Counsel or submit it directly to the Archives or just store it such that it could be delivered

9 by others?

10 A Oh, it would be stored electronically. On paperwork, there was an internal

11 process in place. So you would have to -- you would have to ask somebody else about

12 the details of how they actually transferred that information to the Archives, but --

13 Q Okay.

14 A So --

15 Q 1 understand. So you weren't physically bringing stuff over, across the

16 street, to the Archives. You were ensuring that it was --

17 The Reporter. I'm sorry. I missed the last part of her response.

18 - Sorry--

19 Ms. Trump. I'm not sure what part was missed, but you're correct in that I

20 wasn't physically bringing things over, that there was an internal process in place.

21 BY

22 Q Okay. And it sounds like that was in place throughout your service; there

23 was no particular effort or renewed focus on it at the very end?

24 A I don't know that to be true, but, you know, the people who managed paper

25 flow could provide you with more details on their efforts towards the end of the
 14

1 administration versus at other times.

2 Q I see. Okay. And when the administration ended, did you just provide

3 your phone, your computer, those physical devices to someone for preservation?

4 A Upon leaving the building on our last night.

5 Q Got it. Okay.

6 All right. Let's talk a little bit about your specific responsibilities in the White

7 House.

8 Can you just tell us, starting with the 2016 campaign, did you have an official role

9 in your father's first run for office in 2016?

10 A I did not.

11 Q Okay.

12 When he was elected President, what role did you take on as part of his staff at

13 the White House?

14 A I joined him to run the Office of Economic Initiatives, focused on

15 working-family policies, expanding access to paid leave and affordable childcare,

16 workforce development initiatives and job training programs, initiatives relating to

17 combating human trafficking and child exploitation.

18 I was heavily involved in tax reform efforts, specifically the doubling of the Child

19 Tax Credit in 2017, and other initiatives as they arose.

20 Q Uh-huh. What was your title?

21 A My title was Advisor to the President.

22 Q Okay.

23 And the portfolio that you described, Ms. Trump, was that something that -- issues

24 that you articulated an interest in? Things that the President wanted you to take on?

25 Like, how did that, sort of, suite of issues become your responsibility?
 15

1 A Both. I feel very fortunate that the President empowered me to oversee

2 that particular portfolio of work, which I was and remain deeply passionate about.

3 Q I understand.

4 Did your portfolio evolve over the 4 years of his administration?

5 A It did.

6 Q Tell us about that. Were there things that you took on over the course of

7 time?

8 A Well, COVID would be one example of the world changing, including

9 everyone's priorities. So I became much more involved in food aid and the delivery of

10 food to vulnerable Americans via a program called the Farmers to Family Food Box

11 Program, where we delivered over 175 million boxes of fresh produce from small farmers

12 to Americans in need. So I helped stand up and oversee that particular initiative.

13 The WGDP initiative, run out of the State Department and USAID, was an initiative

14 that evolved over time. It was part of the President's articulated foreign policy strategy

15 to economically empower women around the world as a way of advancing peace in

16 countries globally.

17 So I worked with a great and dedicated team of people across many agencies

18 specifically fighting to change laws in countries that receive American development

19 assistance funds -- change laws that would enable women to participate in the economy,

20 inherit businesses, operate businesses, open bank accounts, and address other

21 impediments to them participating in their local economies.

22 So that is an initiative that grew and evolved over the 4 years that I served --

23 Q I see. Uh-huh.

24 And you served all the way to the end and finished your service on January the

25 20th of 2021?
 16

1 A Correct.

2 Q Okay.

3 COVID, obviously, something that nobody anticipated, that I suppose a lot of

4 people in the White House had a hand in helping with and figuring out a response?

5 A Correct.

6 Q Yeah. Okay.

7 Did you have any specific role in your father's reelection campaign?

8 A I did not.

9 Q Okay. Did you engage in campaign activity on your personal time? Give

10 him or others advice about campaign-related matters?

11 A Periodically I engaged in campaign-related activity.

12 Q Yeah. Give us an example. What kind of campaign activity did you

13 participate in?

14 A I introduced him at the RNC, as I had done in 2016. I spoke at several

15 events, and I participated in a handful of fundraising opportunities for the RNC.

16 Q Okay. Were you ever involved, Ms. Trump, in strategy discussions, the

17 deployment of resources or particular campaign messaging, those kinds of higher-level

18 campaign discussions?

19 A That's very broad. Not that I recall, in terms of specific strategy.

20 Occasionally, I'm sure somebody from the campaign would ask me my opinion from a

21 messaging perspective or from a participation perspective, in terms of my interest in

22 being more involved. But I don't recall any specifics --

23 Q Yeah.

24 A -- as it pertains to that.

25 Q I understand.
 17

1 And who on the campaign, specific staff, were you regularly in touch with during

2 the reelection campaign?

3 A I wouldn't say I was regularly in touch with anyone. I saw the staff

4 periodically when they would visit the President at the White House.

5 Q Okay. Anyone in particular that was kind of your point of contact? Was it

6 Mr. Stepien or Jason Miller or anyone, or not?

7 A I would say both Bill Stepien and Jason Miller are probably the two

8 individuals I saw the most frequently. But, again, there was nothing -- it wasn't -- I didn't

9 have a specific point of contact at the campaign.

10 Q Got it. Okay.

11 All right. Well, before I move into the day of January 6th, the

12 lead-up and the day of January 6th, let me stop here and see if Ms. Cheney or Mr. Schiff

13 or Mrs. Luria or any of our members have questions on the background stuff.

14 No? Okay.

15 1111? Go ahead.

16 ~ I have just a few.

17 ~ Okay.

18 BY
19 Q I have just a few quick questions before we move ahead.

20 Earlier, Ms. Trump, you mentioned that whenever you contacted

21 President Trump, you called him on the number that was provided to you. Do you recall

22 if that was the contact number for his White House-issued cell phone or for a landline or

23 something like that?

24 A I don't. Periodically, the number would change or be updated, and I would

25 be informed of that. But I would say, most often I would call either the residence
 18

1 directly or the Situation Room to be connected through to him.

2 Q So, in those circumstances, you would call those numbers, you would reach

3 an intermediary and then ask to connect with him, and they would put you through. Is

4 that accurate?

5 A Correct.

6 Q Do you know if President Trump had a cell phone other than the device that

7 he was issued through the White House Communications Agency while he was in office?

8 A I do not know.

9 Q All right. That's all I have.

10 BY

11 Q Just a couple more followups, Ms. Trump, on documents.

12 So I asked you about encrypted apps. You indicated you did not use any of them

13 for official use. How about for the campaign or any other purpose? The Signal or

14 Telegram or WhatsApp.

15 A For personal use I have used them. But for nothing that I can recall related

16 to the campaign and definitely not for official.

17 Q I see. Okay. So no campaign and no official, but strictly personal stuff?

18 A To the best of my recollection, yes.

19 Q Yeah. I understand. And which of those encrypted apps do you recall

20 using?

21 A Primarily WhatsApp. I have Signal as well.

22 Q Okay.

23 You indicated that, at some point over the course of your service, the text feature

24 on your phone was enabled. Was that a program that you had to request participation

25 in? Or tell us more about the circumstances of turning on that feature on your phone.
 19

1 A I don't recall the specifics. I do recall people at some point in time

2 mentioning having texted me on my White House phone and not having received it, and I

3 came to believe that you had to affirmatively enable that feature. Whether it was

4 available all 4 years or it was something that was stood up in the later years, I just don't

5 know.

6 Q I see. But when you learned that it was something into which you had to

7 opt, you did so? You indicated interested in participating in that, in getting text

8 functions?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Okay. And roughly when did that occur? I know you can't recall exact

11 date, but how far into the 4 years was that?

12 A I don't know.

13 Q Okay.

14 All right. I want to talk now January 6th.

15 Before the day, what did you understand to be the significance of the certification

16 proceeding, the joint session of Congress? Just sort of generally, what was your

17 expectation as to what happened at that congressional proceeding?

18 A I don't think I had an expectation that differed from everyone else. You

19 know, it was exactly what you said. It was a certification of the election.

20 Q Uh-huh. So, in the days prior to January 6th, was it your expectation that

21 Congress would meet and accept the electors submitted from States and certify the

22 result?

23 A I didn't really have an expectation. This was my first time being in a White

24 House during this process. So I --

25 Q Okay.
 20

1 A -- I wasn't, sort of, anticipating one way or another.

2 Q I see. Were you involved in any discussions in advance about what might

3 happen at the joint session?

4 A I was not, to the best --

5 Q Okay.

6 A -- to the best of my recollection.

7 Q Yeah.

8 Let's talk a little bit about the rally that morning, the Ellipse rally.

9 Did you have any role in the planning or preparing for that event or any of the

10 attendant other events that were scheduled that would be involving your father or

11 election-related issues on January 6th?

12 A I had no involvement in planning or organizing the rally on January 6th.

13 Q Okay. Were you invited to speak at the Ellipse rally?

14 A I recall being invited and declining, but I don't really recall the details beyond

15 that, in terms of who invited me and -- I just -- I recall that there was a request for my

16 participation and I declined.

17 Q Okay. Do you know who it is that requested your participation or invited

18 you?

19 A I don't recall.

20 Q Why did you decline?

21 A I don't recall. It wasn't generally common practice of me to speak

22 at -- there were many, many rallies, and I only spoke at a very small percentage of them.

23 So it wouldn't --

24 Q I see.

25 A -- be abnormal, but I can't recall the specifics of why I chose to decline.

 21

1 Q Tell us more about that. Was it that you didn't feel like it was your strength

2 or it wasn't appropriate, given your role in the White House? Why did you, sort of, limit

3 your participation in the rallies, as you did?

4 A I was incredibly passionate about the work I was doing and focused on that

5 each and every day. And there were other people who were very focused on, and had

6 to be focused on, the politics. And, obviously, politics allow policy to come into fruition,

7 but I kind of tolerated the politics so that I could advance the policy.

8 But that just wasn't my focus. My focus was the work I was doing in the White

9 House. And any time I had that wasn't committed to that was focused on raising my

10 three young children.

11 Q Yeah. I understand.

12 Let me show you exhibit No. 3. - can put it up on the screen.

13 So this looks like an email that was sent from Katrina Pierson to a woman named

14 Julie Radford. Do you know Julie Radford?

15 A I do.

16 Q Who is she? What role did she play?

17 A Julie was my chief of staff at the White House.

18 Q Okay.

19 So, if you go all the way to the bottom of this, Ms. Pierson, on January the 4th of

20 2021, emailed your chief of staff. And it says, "POTUS asked me if lvanka was speaking

21 at his Jan 6th Stop the Steal event, and I wasn't sure if she wanted to say a few words or

22 not."

23 And then Ms. Radford writes back, "Thanks for reaching out." She asks about

24 whether Don and Eric are speaking as well, tries to get some details.

25 And then, eventually, at the very top -- _ , if you scroll up -- she says, "Hi!
 22

1 She will plan to attend. Can we briefly chat? If so, what's the best number to call you

2 on?"

3 So there's no answer here in terms of whether you will or won't speak, but she

4 asks to speak to Katrina Pierson.

5 Does this in any way, Ms. Trump, give you more recollection as to the

6 circumstances of the invitation and your decision to not speak?

7 A It does not.

8 Q Okay.

9 Did you have any concerns at the time or any, I should say before concerns, even

10 awareness, beyond your siblings, as to who else might participate or speak at the rally at

11 the Ellipse?

12 A I did not.

13 Q Were you at all concerned about sharing a stage with certain people -- for

14 instance, with Roger Stone or with Alex Jones or people like that?

15 A I didn't know who was participating. I knew really no details about the

16 event.

17 Q I see. So your decision not to participate was not because of the tone of

18 the event or the participation of others but, simply, you were focused on the work?

19 A I had mentioned before that I can't recall why I chose not to speak, but I

20 chose not to speak.

21 Q Okay.

22 All right. I'm going to ask you over the course of this about some of the

23 reporting that has been done about these events in the months since.

24 Carol Leonnig and Philip Rucker, two journalists, wrote a book, and they have

25 some information about this particular event. In their book, they indicated that you
 23

1 declined to speak in part because you had been increasingly uncomfortable with the

2 effort to overturn the election results.

3 Is that accurate, that part of your decision to not speak was because you were

4 increasingly uncomfortable with efforts to overturn the election results?

5 A I don't know where they heard that, but, as I just mentioned, I don't recall

6 what the motivation was for me to choose not to speak, other than to say that's not

7 inconsistent with my choices regularly. As a percentage of campaign events, I

8 participated -- or, I believe this wasn't even one -- but I participated very infrequently.

9 Q Yeah.

10 At this time, on the morning of January 6th, were you increasingly uncomfortable

11 with efforts to overturn the election results?

12 A On January 6th, I didn't -- I think I just answered that question. I don't

13 recall specifically why I chose not to attend that event.

14 What I was focused on on January 6th, on December 6th, until the day I left, I was

15 making phone calls till 3:00 in the morning relating to official business on the day we left

16 the White House. And I was focused on the enormity of the responsibility I had. And

17 that's really where my focus was.

18 Q Uh-huh. Yeah. I understand and appreciate that, Ms. Trump. And

19 just separate from your decision not to speak at the rally, I'm just looking for, what was

20 your general state of mind when it came to the ongoing rhetoric about the fraud in the

21 election?

22 It was reported that you were uncomfortable with efforts to overturn the election

23 results. Separate from the decision about the speech, were you at that point

24 uncomfortable with those efforts?

25 A I prefer not to comment on reporting. I didn't participate in an interview

 24

1 for that book that you just referenced, if it was, in fact, from a book. So I'd prefer not to

2 comment on speculative reporting as to my mindset.

3 Q Okay. Separate from the book, I'm just wondering what your mindset was

4 in the morning about rhetoric and efforts to overturn the election. Were you

5 uncomfortable about that at that time?

6 A Like I said, my focus was on the work that I was doing in the White House.

7 That was always where my focus was -- and also celebrating all the great things that this

8 Presidency had accomplished for the American people.

9 Q Uh-huh. Were you at all concerned that discussion about the election was

10 actually crowding out celebration of the accomplishments or was preventing much more

11 of a focus on all the things that had occurred over the last 4 years?

12 A My preference was always geared towards talking about policy. That's

13 evident in how I chose to use my words and how I chose to communicate. So I think I

14 had been very consistent in that regard.

15 Q Did you have any conversations with your father about that, "You should be

16 talking about your record, not about the election," convey the policy preference?

17 A Not specifically that I can recall. I would always encourage him to celebrate

18 the great achievements and the great wins he had been able to secure for this country.

19 So that was, I would say, a consistent element of our conversation. But he uses his own

20 words, and he is very forthright with his thoughts, so --

21 Q Yeah.

22 Your husband told us just last week that he would frequently raise events,

23 opportunities to highlight those successes, and the President was not always receptive

24 because he was talking all about the election.

25 Did you share any of that concern, that discussion of the election was preventing
 25

1 him from talking about all the accomplishments?

2 A Well, even in the final weeks, we looked for opportunities to share with the

3 American people accomplishments, Operation Warp Speed being one of the great

4 examples.

5 But I think my answer continues to be the same. My consistent preference was

6 to talk about what had been and was being accomplished.

7 Q Yeah. Again, did you talk to him about that -- your father?

8 A I don't have a specific recollection of a specific moment, but more generally,

9 yes.

10 Q All right. And what was his response, more generally, when you raised

11 these issues with him of what he should be talking about?

12 A He agreed that it had been a historic Presidency and it was a historic

13 Presidency, and he was very proud of what he had accomplished. So --

14 Q Uh-huh. Did you ever encourage him, Ms. Trump, to not talk as much

15 about the election and to talk more about the historic record?

16 A I always encouraged him to talk about his historic record.

17 Q Uh-huh. In comparison to the election? Did you have discussions with

18 him about, "Hey, talk about this more than that," kind of comparing those two messages?

19 A As I said, I don't recall the specifics of those conversations, but, generally

20 speaking, that's my orientation always, to be talking about policy and policy that impacts

21 people's lives.

22 Q Do you remember any discussion before the Ellipse rally about a march, that

23 attendees would move from the Ellipse to the Capitol?

24 A No.

25 Q Did you have any advance warning that there might be an effort to
 26

1 encourage people to march to the Capitol?

2 A No.

3 Q Were you aware of any discussions prior to the Ellipse speech about the

4 President himself going to the Capitol?

5 A No.

6 Q Were you ever present when that was discussed, whether he would walk or

7 drive up to the Capitol at the time of the joint session?

8 A Not that I can recall, but I'm quite sure no.

9 Q Okay. So that sounds like not a don't recall, but a quite sure that you --

10 A Oh, no. I mean, the answer's no, that I do not.

11 Q Yeah. I appreciate that.

12 Were you aware of any discussions about your dad actually delivering a speech at

13 the Capitol, like, not just at the Ellipse but also potentially making remarks at the Capitol,

14 at the time of the joint session?

15 A I don't recall that.

16 Q Okay.

17 At any point before the Ellipse rally, were you involved in any discussion about the

18 optics of the event or the staging or the, sort of, look of what would occur at the Ellipse?

19 A Not that I recall.

20 Q Did you ever hear any discussion about the effect the crowd moving toward

21 the Capitol might have on the joint session?

22 A No.

23 Q All right.

24 Turning to the Ellipse rally itself, it's been reported that you ultimately decided to

25 attend the rally even though you weren't going to speak. Is that right?
 27

1 A Correct.

2 Q All right. So you decided to go even though you weren't going to actually

3 take the stage --

4 A Correct.

5 Q -- right? Okay.

6 It's been reported that you ultimately decided to attend the rally because you

7 hoped that you would calm the President and keep the event on an even keel. Is that

8 accurate?

9 A No. I don't know who said that or where that came from.

10 Q What was your reason for going? Or what was your intention as to what

11 you would be able to do during the Ellipse rally?

12 A To the best of my recollection, I was not planning to speak or attend the

13 rally. The morning of January 6th, I recall Mark Meadows and Eric Herschmann asking

14 me if I would join them on -- really, just as they were on their way out the door, they said,

15 "Will you join us?" And I said, "Okay." So I joined.

16 Q Did they say why --

17 A 1don't have a recollection of having planned to have gone.

18 Q I'm sorry to interrupt you. I apologize.

19 Did Mr. Meadows or Mr. Herschmann say why they wanted you to go or what

20 specific role you would play or value you would add?

21 A No, they didn't. They just asked -- I recall that they were moving through

22 the outer Oval towards the cars, and I was at the edge of Dan Scavino's office, and they

23 said, "Would you join us?"

24 Q Uh-huh.

25 A I said, "Okay," and I went.

 28

1 Q But up to that moment, you weren't planning on traveling with the President

2 or others down to the Ellipse?

3 A I don't recall having been -- I recall actually that I wasn't planning to go.

4 But it -- I -- my memory of this isn't perfect.

5 Q I see. Okay.

6 Before we actually get into your specific activities at the White House that

7 morning, do you remember hearing in advance of the Ellipse rally or at any time that

8 there was a possibility of violence or of unrest at the Capitol or anywhere else around

9 these rallies?

10 A No.

11 Q Any advice from Secret Service or from any law enforcement about the

12 possibility of violence?

13 A No. The possibility had not even occurred to me.

14 Q I understand. Okay.

15 A I don't believe it occurred to anyone --

16 Q Yeah.

17 A -- who I've spoken to that that may transpire.

18 Q Were you aware of any discussions in the White House about the Proud Boys

19 or the Oath Keepers or any other groups who might be present either at the Ellipse or at

20 the Capitol?

21 A No.

22 Q All right. Did you participate in any sort of security discussions about

23 preparations for those events?

24 A No, I didn't.

25 Q Okay.
 29

1 So let's talk about the morning. About when did you arrive at the White House?

2 Do you remember?

3 A I don't recall.

4 Q Your husband was out of town, right? Wasn't he in the Middle East?

5 A He was.

6 Q Okay. And, normally, when, generally, would you arrive at the -- did you go

7 to the White House every day? Like, generally, were you in person and working in your

8 office?

9 A I was.

10 Q Okay. Where in the West Wing complex was your office?

11 A I was on the second floor, across from NEC.

12 Q Okay. Did you go to your office that morning at some point?

13 A I did.

14 Q All right. And, again, you don't remember exactly when it was?

15 A I don't. I typically would show up at the office between 7:00 and 8:00,

16 maybe 8:30 if I was dropping the kids to school.

17 Q I see. Okay.

18 Did you have any communications with your father when you arrived at the White

19 House that morning, like, upon your arrival?

20 A I did. I went to the residence at some point that morning.

21 Q Uh-huh.

22 A I can't recall if I had gone up to my office first or if I had proceeded directly

23 there.

24 Q Yeah. Tell us why.

25 A All of my siblings were in town that day. It was my brother Eric's birthday
 30

1 that day, and I'd heard that they were all over in the residence. So I went to join them

2 and to say hello.

3 Q I see. Okay. And that was before your father had come down to the Oval

4 Office; it was sort of before the workday got going. Is that right?

5 A Well, the workday was going for many people, but it was before he came

6 down to the office.

7 Q All right.

8 Tell us about that gathering. What was the mood, his general mood and

9 demeanor that morning when you saw him, your father, in the residence?

10 A I recall it being very informal and casual. My siblings were there, and their

11 spouses and significant others, and Melania was there, and several other people were

12 there. But it was -- it wasn't a specific, formal discussion. It was very, sort of, loose

13 and casual.

14 Q Yeah. Who specifically do you recall being present?

15 A I just listed the people I specifically recall. I believe there was somebody

16 from speechwriting in attendance --

17 Q Uh-huh.

18 A -- because he was proceeding shortly thereafter to the rally. So I believe

19 they were there to potentially discuss a -- or to discuss a draft of the speech. But it

20 wasn't -- it certainly wasn't a -- it wasn't a meeting or an organized speechwriting session.

21 It was more casual.

22 Q I see. Was that Stephen Miller? Was he the speechwriter who was

23 present? Do you remember?

24 A I don't recall specifically who was there.

25 Q Was there a discussion -- I understand it wasn't a formal meeting, but was

 31

1 there a discussion about the speech, about the remarks, about the things that your dad

2 would say at the rally?

3 A There may have been, but I don't recall the specifics of that.

4 Q Okay.

5 You said your siblings were there. So you said Eric -- it was Eric's birthday, and

6 he was present?

7 A He was.

8 Q Along with his wife, Lara?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Was Don Jr. present as well?

11 A He was.

12 Q And Kimberly Guilfoyle?

13 A I believe so.

14 Q Okay. You said Melania, the First Lady, was there?

15 A Correct.

16 Q And any other professional staff present?

17 A There were other people there, but I don't recall specifically who. I'd be --

18 Q Okay.

19 A -- speculating. But there were additional staff there, his staff. But I don't

20 recall who.

21 Q Okay. Do you remember whether Mr. Herschmann or Mr. Meadows or

22 Mr. Cipollone, any of them, were there?

23 A I don't recall.

24 Q Okay.

25 At any point during this period of time when you were in the residence, did the
 32

1 President make or receive any phone calls?

2 A Not that I remember.

3 Q All right.

4 I think Mr. Kinzinger, another member of the select committee, has

5 joined.

6 BY

7 Q Let me show you a document here. It's exhibit 4. And we'll put it up on

8 the screen.

9 So, Ms. Trump, this is what's called "The Daily Diary of President Donald J. Trump."

10 It's dated January 6th, and it is essentially a minute-by-minute account of his activities.

11 Are you familiar generally with these daily diaries that are produced reflecting the

12 President's schedule every day?

13 A I knew of the existence of them, but I don't recall seeing it in this format.

14 Q Okay. But you were aware that there was a diarist who would make such a

15 record. Is that right?

16 A Maybe not that specifically, but I was -- I would see a different format of

17 his schedule.

18 Q Okay.

19 Well, this is a document that we received from the Archives that goes through a

20 series of phone calls that the President made before he went to the Oval Office. If you

21 look at the second page here, it reflects that he went to the Oval Office at 11:08 a.m. that

22 morning, but prior to that there was a series of phone calls.

23 Do you recall him having any contact with any of the folks listed here? And I can

24 just quickly read them: Kurt Olson, Steve Bannon, Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows,

25 Mitch McConnell, Jim Jordan, Josh Hawley, Stephen Miller, Nick Luna, Bill Bennett, or
 33

1 David Perdue.

2 Any recollection of him having contact with those folks, as reflected in the log, at

3 any point before he went to the Oval at 11:08?

4 A Somebody from his operations team potentially was present, and, as I

5 mentioned, somebody from speechwriting would've been there, but I have no

6 recollection of seeing him make any calls or overhearing them.

7 Q I see. And when you say operations team, what, more specifically, do you

8 mean by that?

9 A Well, oftentimes, prior to a speech, somebody from his team, like Nick,

10 would greet him in the residence or, just as part of his daily process, would walk with him

11 towards the West Wing.

12 Q I see. So that's, like, Nick Luna or --

13 A But I have no recollection of phone calls at all.

14 Q Okay. And when you say operations team, you mean, like, Nick Luna or the

15 people that sit in, kind of, the outer Oval?

16 A Correct.

17 Q That's what you mean by "operations team"?

18 A Correct.

19 Q Got it. Okay. All right. So no recollection of any of these particular

20 phone calls?

21 A No.

22 Q All right.

23 Let me show you another exhibit. And this is -- it's No. 28.

24 And, Mr. Benson, this is a record of Ms. Trump's calls that we sent to you early this

25 morning. This is actually something we created.

 34

1 It's actually exhibit 27, for the record.

2 BY

3 Q Sorry. Twenty-seven.

4 A I'm not sure if we a printout here, so I'll do my best to --

5 Q Yeah. And we'll zoom in so that you can see it. I'll just say, Ms. Trump,

6 this is a document that we've put together from some phone records that reflect calls

7 made to and from your personal cell phone, the one ending i n ~ .

8 A Uh-huh.

9 Q So the records reflect that the first call that you received that morning was

10 at 8:49 a.m. from Ken Kurson.

11 Do you recall speaking with Mr. Kurson early that morning?

12 A I don't.

13 Q Do you know whether or not you were already at the White House at this

14 time, or were you at home or en route?

15 A I don't know.

16 Q Okay. Who is Ken Kurson?

17 A He's a personal friend of Jared and myself.

18 Q Okay. And it looks like you spoke to him for about 10 minutes or

19 11 minutes. You don't recall anything about that conversation that morning?

20 A I don't.

21 Q Okay.

22 At 9:19, you made a call to Michael Berland, and that was also connected, and it

23 lasted, it looks like, about 5 minutes.

24 Do you recall talking to Mr. Berland at about 9:19 that morning?

25 A Only vaguely.
 35

1 Q Who is Michael Berland?

2 A He's also a personal friend. We were in a YPO group together.

3 Q What is "VPO"?

4 A Young professionals organization. It's just a -- it was a business group we

5 were involved in together many, many years ago.

6 Q I see. Okay.

7 So nothing specific about that particular call?

8 A No.

9 Q Okay.

10 It reflects, at 9:30, there's only a 2-second call that you placed to Rachel Craddock.

11 Who is Rachel Craddock?

12 A She was my assistant.

13 Q I see. Okay. And it looks like that one didn't connect.

14 And then there are two successive calls that you placed at 9:31 and 9:32 to a

15 White House-issued cell phone that ends in 8941. Do you recognize that number?

16 A I don't recognize that number, no.

17 Q All right. So do you know who in the White House -- it's a White

18 House-issued cell phone, so -- who in the White House was associated with 881-8941?

19 A It may have been Julie Radford, but I don't know. I don't have her number

20 memorized, so I don't know.

21 Q I see. Okay. That's fair.

22 And then at 9:56 you receive a call from Eric Herschmann. Do you remember

23 speaking to Mr. Herschmann a little bit before 10:00 in the morning on January 6th?

24 A I don't.

25 Q Okay. Do you know whether or not that was before or after you went to
 36

1 the residence?

2 A I don't know.

3 Q Okay.

4 There's a call at 10:08 with Jeanine Lauth. Do you know who that is?

5 A The name doesn't sound familiar.

6 Q Okay.

7 A I don't remember.

8 Q Okay.

9 And then there's another call with the same cell phone, 8941. Again, you don't

10 remember who that is, right? That's at 11:30.

11 A Correct.

12 Q Okay.

13 All right. Well, we can come back to this in a little while.

14 At some point, Ms. Trump, did you leave the residence and go back to your office?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Was that because the gathering at the residence was ending, people were

17 leaving? Or what caused you to leave the residence and go back to your office?

18 A At some point, I recall us collectively joining the President, going downstairs,

19 walking over to the Oval Office. And at some point shortly thereafter, I left the Oval and

20 proceeded back to my office for a period of time.

21 Q Okay. So did the whole group go, sort of, together from the residence

22 down into the Oval Office, kind of continuing the gathering?

23 A I don't know what proportion of the group came, but several of us did.

24 Q Immediately from the residence to the Oval Office, as some portion of that

25 group?
 37

1 A Correct.

2 Q All right. And did the conversation or the gathering continue in the Oval

3 Office?

4 A It did, but I left, I believe, shortly after we arrived in the Oval Office and went

5 back to my office.

6 Q Why?

7 A To start the day.

8 Q I see. So --

9 A 1mean, I don't have a specific recollection of what I was going to do, but, as I

10 had said, it'd been a pretty informal gathering initially with my siblings.

11 Q Uh-huh.

12 A And, then, as we went down to the West Wing, I proceeded back to my own

13 office.

14 Q Did you at some point get back to the Oval and rejoin your family and your

15 father before leaving for the Ellipse?

16 A I did.

17 Q Okay. And just give me a sense of how long you were back in your office

18 before you went back to the Oval.

19 A I don't recall.

20 Q Okay. Upon your return, was there more discussion?

21 A There continued to be a group present in the Oval Office. I'm not sure if

22 the composition of it had changed slightly.

23 Q Uh-huh.

24 A People were, sort of, coming and going.

25 Q Yeah. Who do you recall being present in the Oval Office? Anybody
 38

1 different from the group that was upstairs in the residence?

2 A When I returned?

3 Q Yes.

4 A I recall at that juncture Eric Herschmann being present. I cannot recall if he

5 had been at the residence. My siblings were there. I recall at one point seeing

6 General Kellogg.

7 Q Uh-huh.

8 A He was towards the back of the room, where I was standing. But who

9 beyond that -- I know there were additional people, I just -- I don't recall who they were.

10 Q I understand. It sounds like there were people coming and going over the

11 course of the time that you were there. Is that right?

12 A Correct.

13 Q All right. But in addition to your siblings, you recall Mr. Herschmann

14 and General Kellogg being present for some portion?

15 A Correct.

16 Q All right.

17 Do you remember any phone calls placed to or received -- placed by or placed to

18 your father during this period of time?

19 A When I entered the office the second time, he was on the telephone

20 with the -- who I later found out to be was the Vice President. But it was not on

21 speaker, so I could only hear his end of the conversation.

22 Q Was he standing in the Oval Office during this conversation?

23 A "He" being the President, my father?

24 Q Yes. Yes.

25 A He was.
 39

1 Q Okay. And where were you when you walked in and he was on the phone

2 with the Vice President?

3 A The office was quite full, and all the seats in front I recall being taken. And

4 there were several people around. I walked in and stood by the back, near the

5 grandfather clock that is in the Oval.

6 Q Okay.

7 What do you recall hearing your father say during that -- I know you couldn't hear

8 the Vice President, but what, if anything, do you recall your father saying during his end

9 of the conversation?

10 A I don't recall the specifics of the dialogue, and I wasn't there for -- I walked

11 in, and it was -- it took me a few minutes -- well, I don't know how long it took me, but it

12 took me a period of time to figure out who he was speaking to. But the conversation

13 was pretty heated.

14 Q Uh-huh. I understand you don't remember exact words, but, generally, tell

15 us what you observed as you watched that conversation unfold.

16 A There appeared to be a discussion over what the Vice President's rights were

17 in his position and obligations were in his position presiding over the Senate.
 40

2 [11:00 a.m.]

3 BY

4 Q Any particular words that you recall your father using during the

5 conversation?

6 A No.

7 Q It's been reported that he called the Vice President a wimp.

8 Do you remember him using that word?

9 A I don't.

10 Q It's been reported that he said, "I made the wrong decision when I chose you

11 4 years ago."

12 Do you remember anything like that, along those lines, during the conversation?

13 A I may not have been present for that.

14 Q Okay. It's been reported that he said that the Vice President wasn't tough

15 enough to make the call.

16 Do you remember anything generally along those lines?

17 A I don't recall that.

18 Q Okay. When you say it was heated, tell me more specifically, Ms. Trump,

19 what behaviors, tone, what you observed that informs that view that the conversation

20 was heated.

21 A Well, I knew the Vice President quite well, and it was -- the tone of the

22 conversation was different from what I had heard prior. So that's why I say it was

23 heated, not -- so that would be my characterization of it.

24 Q Yeah. And when you say it was heated, you mean your father was heated,

25 that he was angry, he was emotional during the conversation?

 41

1 A I wouldn't say emotional or angry, but it was different. It was a different

2 tone than I had heard him take with the Vice President before.

3 Q I see. So this was different in tone than his normal interaction with the

4 Vice President that you had observed?

5 A Correct.

6 Q Okay. Was everyone sort of around listening? I'm trying to get a sense of

7 what else was going on in the room when your father is engaged in a heated conversation

8 with the Vice President.

9 A I wasn't too closely observing what others were doing. I recall having left

10 also in the middle of the conversation and entering Dan Scavino's office, which was a very

11 small office outside of the Oval, adjoining the outer Oval.

12 Q You indicated -- before we get -- I want to ask you about that movement out

13 to Mr. Scavino's office. But before we leave the conversation, you indicated it was

14 about the Vice President's power or what the Vice President could or couldn't do at the

15 joint session.

16 What gives you that impression, that it was about that subject matter?

17 A Generally, I remember that being what was being discussed.

18 Q Before that conversation, Ms. Trump, were you aware of any disagreement

19 between the President and the Vice President about this precise issue, about the Vice

20 President's authority?

21 A Not that I can recall.

22 Q Had you been involved in any discussions with your father or others about

23 the Vice President's authority at the joint session?

24 A Not that I recall.

25 Q During the conversation that you observed, your father's end of it, did you
 42

1 say anything to anyone else in the room?

2 A I don't recall that. I recall just having left.

3 Q General Kellogg, for example, were you standing next to him back by the

4 grandfather clock in the Oval Office?

5 A I recall standing near him.

6 Q Yeah. Did you say anything to him during or after the phone call between

7 your father and the Vice President?

8 A I saw it reported that I did, but I don't recall saying anything specifically, no.

9 Q Okay. General Kellogg told the select committee that you turned to him

10 and said, "Mike Pence is a good man."

11 Do you remember whether that is accurate?

12 A I don't recall having said that. But I -- it does sound like something I would

13 say. He is a good man, and I have a lot of respect for him.

14 Q Yeah. Did you convey that general sentiment, respect for the Vice

15 President, to General Kellogg or others in the room at the time of this conversation?

16 A I don't recall having done so. I don't recall speaking. I remember that the

17 President was on the telephone, so -- and that I had come in mid-conversation and left

18 prior to its conclusion -- or I actually don't know at what point in the conversation I came

19 in. But I don't recall any specific interactions with other people present.

20 Q Yeah. Anything else at all that you remember about the conversation

21 about what your father said, either his demeanor or his words?

22 A No.

23 Q All right. And do you remember saying anything to anyone in the room

24 during that conversation?

25 A I don't.
 43

1 Q How did you feel, Ms. Trump, when you saw a heated conversation between

2 your father and his Vice President, a man you respect?

3 A Two men I respect. I -- it saddened me to see them having a disagreement.

4 They had been very consistently on the same page.

5 But other than that general sort of sense, sort of a human sentiment, if you will, I

6 don't recall specifically what I was thinking in that moment.

7 Q Were you surprised?

8 A I guess in retrospect I would be, but at the time I don't recall being surprised.

9 I don't -- I recall having chosen to leave.

10 Q Did you leave because it was a difficult conversation to witness?

11 A I really don't know why I chose to leave. That may have been the reason.

12 But I just --1 don't know.

13 Q You indicated that this was different than what you had observed previously

14 between, you know, the relationship between these two men you respect.

15 So given that it was different, were you surprised at the conflict or not?

16 A I just --1 don't know what I -- I can't recreate for you what I felt in that

17 moment.

18 Q Tell us what happened when you went into Dan Scavino's office. Was he

19 present? Was Mr. Scavino present in his office when you left?

20 A I don't know if he was already in the office, but at some point in time he was

21 in the office with me, in his office.

22 Q I'm sorry. Go ahead.

23 A I don't know if he was actually -- if he was already in the office when I

24 entered, but he may very well have been. But at some point in time we were there

25 collectively.
 44

1 Q Did you talk to Mr. Scavino about what you had just observed between -- the

2 conversation between the President and the Vice President?

3 A I don't recall.

4 Q Do you remember anything about a conversation with Mr. Scavino when you

5 saw him in his office?

6 A I remember at one point Lara Trump entering the office as well.

7 Q What happened when Lara Trump entered?

8 A I just vaguely remember her having come in at one point in time.

9 Q Do you know whether or not she had a similar reaction to yours with respect

10 to the heated conversation that was taking place in the Oval Office?

11 A I don't know. We were there, I believe, a relatively short period of time.

12 Q Okay. Did you speak to anyone, Ms. Trump, about what you had just

13 observed? Understandably, an unusual occurrence. Did you talk to anyone about

14 that?

15 A The next thing I recall is Mark Meadows and Eric Herschmann walking by

16 Dan's office. And I may have already been outside of it. I may have been inside of it.

17 I don't recall. I think that Dan and Lara were still there. And them asking me to join

18 them to the Ellipse -- to go to the Ellipse.

19 Q Okay. So it sounds like this conversation took place very close in time to

20 when all of you left to drive down to the Ellipse. Is that right?

21 A I don't really know, but it's generally how I remember it.

22 Q Yeah. So the conversation, the heated conversation, is going on. You

23 walk out to the outer Oval very briefly. And that's when Mr. Meadows and others walk

24 out saying, "Will you join us? We're moving now down to the Ellipse." Is that right?

25 A To be honest, it was very brief. I don't recall how long I was in Dan's office.
 45

1 But to the best of my recollection, it was a relatively short period of time.

2 - Okay.

3 All right. I want to stop here and see if Ms. Cheney -- I see Mrs. Murphy has

4 joined us now.

5 Any members have questions about this particular part of the inquiry?

6 Yeah, Mrs. Luria, you've come off of mute. Do you have a question?

7 Mrs. Luria. No questions.

8 Okay.

9 Ms. Cheney?

10 Ms. Cheney. Thanks, • .

11 lvanka, I wanted to go back for just a minute. You mentioned that earlier

12 periodically the President's phone number would change or be updated and that you

13 would be informed about that.

14 Who would inform you about that?

15 Ms. Trump. I don't recall.

16 Ms. Cheney. Was it the same person each time?

17 Ms. Trump. I don't know, because his assistants would change periodically. I'm

18 assuming it would have been one of his assistants, but that would be an assumption.

19 don't remember who would give me -- who would share the new contact information

20 with us.

21 Ms. Cheney. And do you remember how they would share it with you?

22 Ms. Trump. I don't, no. Maybe -- I don't recall how we would get it. I just -- I

23 recall having received correspondence -- maybe it was via -- maybe it would have been

24 via email, but I don't know. I'm sorry.

25 Ms. Cheney. And do you recall how often this happened?

 46

1 Ms. Trump. No.

2 Ms. Cheney. Did -- why did it happen?

3 Ms. Trump. Oh, I don't know.

4 Ms. Cheney. So it would potentially be an email you would receive?

5 Ms. Trump. Potentially.

6 Ms. Cheney. And nobody ever told you why his number was changing?

7 Ms. Trump. No.

8 Ms. Cheney. And it would have been Molly Michael, while she was his assistant,

9 who would tell you that it had changed?

10 Ms. Trump. I don't know. I have a vague recollection that it was the -- that it

11 was coming from his assistant, but I don't know which assistant or at what time.

12 Ms. Cheney. And was it sort of two or three times this happened, or more

13 often?

14 Ms. Trump. I don't think that frequently. I recall -- I have a memory of one

15 time receiving, maybe -- maybe twice. But I don't know specifically.

16 Ms. Cheney. And this would be a cell phone number that you would use to

17 contact him?

18 Ms. Trump. That we could use. And the timing of this may have been right

19 when we arrived in Washington as well with getting all the new information for how to

20 communicate with him as a father. I viewed this as personal.

21 Ms. Cheney. Okay. Thank you.

22 - Can I ask a quick follow-up question?

23 BY
24 Q When you received a contact number for the President, did you store that

25 information in your contacts in your phone?

 47

1 A I likely would have.

2 Q And did you store it in your White House-issued phone, your personal

3 phone, or both?

4 A I don't know.

5 Q Do you know if you still have any of that contact information in your

6 personal phone?

7 A I have his current contact information.

8 Q But you don't believe that you have his White House contact information in

9 your personal phone now?

10 A I don't think I would have that, no.

11 Q Okay.

12 A They said to update contacts when we left.

13 Q Understood.

14 Thank you.

15 A Thank you.

16 - Allright.

17 Mrs. Murphy, anything else?

18 Mr. Kinzinger, any questions?

 48

2 BY
3 Q All right. Just a couple things before we go to the Ellipse, Ms. Trump, just

4 to go back. I just have a couple of specific things I want to ask you about conversations.

5 Either in the residence or in the Oval Office when you were there with your father

6 and your siblings, do you remember whether or not there was discussion about election

7 fraud, the rigged election, stop the steal? Were there discussions about that at any

8 point that you recall?

9 A Not that I participated in.

10 Q Okay. Did you hear him or others talking about the rigged election or

11 saying -- talking about the election at the Ellipse?

12 A When we were in the Oval Office or in the residence?

13 Q Yeah, at any point during that morning, before you left for the Ellipse.

14 A I don't recall that.

15 Q Okay. Do you know whether or not it was his intention to go -- the Ellipse

16 speech was to be about the election, was to be sort of a speech on that topic?

17 A I don't know.

18 Q All right. Did you give him any advice about what he should say or not say

19 at the Ellipse, either in the residence or in the Oval Office?

20 A No.

21 Q It's been reported that during the conversation the family members

22 acknowledged that President Trump was still dug in about the election, meaning talking

23 about and believing that it had been riddled with fraud and stolen.

24 Do you remember that being his -- him talking about that or that being his state of

25 mind at the time?

 49

1 A I think he was pretty public about his state of mind.

2 Q Yes. I'm just wondering if the private discussion matched the public

3 rhetoric about the election.

4 A I don't recall a private discussion on that topic.

5 Q Do you remember any discussion that morning about the possibility of a deal

6 where the President would assume some ownership of the Parler social media platform?

7 A No.

8 Q At any time do you remember there being discussion that the President

9 would have a partial ownership stake in Parler?

10 A I recall seeing news reports to that effect, but I never heard that, those

11 conversations.

12 Q And I appreciate that distinction. I'm going to ask you questions that I'm

13 looking for your personal knowledge, not what you read about in the newspaper.

14 Did you at any time talk to him about whether or not ownership stake in Parler

15 was or was not a good idea?

16 A No.

17 Q Okay. Did you talk to anybody else in your family about that?

18 A Not that I remember.

19 Q It's been reported that that deal was put forth to him as a carrot to entice

20 him out of the White House, that he would have a venture and a platform that would

21 help him acknowledge the inevitability of a transition.

22 Any recollection of that?

23 A No.

24 Q Okay.

25 All right. And in one of these books it's been reported that in the Oval Office
 50

1 there was -- that some participants encouraged the President's fantasy of Pence, the

2 hero, stepping in to overturn the election.

3 Do you remember anyone encouraging him or discussing, "Hey, the Vice President

4 can do this, and we have to encourage Mike Pence to do what's right during the joint

5 session"?

6 A No, but I had left the Oval Office immediately, really shortly after arriving

7 there. And when I came back, as I had recalled earlier, he was already on the phone,

8 and I left while he was still on the phone. So I don't recall any of those conversations.

9 I don't think I was present for them if they happened.

10 Q Okay. And it sounds like, again -- I don't want to go over what you heard

11 the President say, but was there anyone else in the room who was kind of encouraging

12 the President's side here, or, "Hey, the Vice President can do this"? Did you hear

13 anyone sort of encouraging him or forwarding that perspective?

14 A Not that I know of.

15 Q It's been reported, for instance, that Kimberly Guilfoyle said, "This is the will

16 of the people, the people outside are reflecting the will of the people," and that your

17 response was, "This is not right, it's not right," anything along those lines.

18 Do you remember Ms. Guilfoyle sort of encouraging the President to keep up the

19 fight or to forward the election fraud narrative?

20 A No, I don't recall that.

21 Q Okay. Do you remember at any point in the -- when you were in the Oval

22 Office there being any reference to the sound of the crowd outside or any either visual or

23 audio perception of the crowd just down from the Oval Office at the Ellipse?

24 A No. Now that you're saying it, I wouldn't have recalled that. But maybe it

25 was audible because it was close proximity, but I don't know if that's just --
 51

1 Q Okay. At this time there was a large crowd assembled and the rally had

2 already started. There were other people already speaking before your father, who

3 was, obviously a headliner, arrived.

4 Do you remember any reference to that, how large the crowd was and what the

5 people want, during any of the conversations in the residence or in the Oval?

6 A No.

7 Q Do you know if the door was open, the door that leads outside from the Oval

8 Office, when you were inside that morning?

9 A Between the Oval and the outer Oval?

10 Q No, between the Oval and the -- and outdoors, like the back of the Oval

11 behind the desk.

12 A I recall it being closed, but that may be wrong. It may have been opened.

13 I don't know.

14 Q Okay. But it sounds like you don't recall any discussion of the crowd or

15 hearing the crowd or anything like that?

16 A No.

17 Q All right.

18 I think Ms. Lofgren has joined us as well.

19 All right. And then before -- one last question about this -- before everybody

20 went to the Ellipse, after the President finished the conversation with the Vice President,

21 do you remember whether you went back to the dining room and spoke to him at any

22 point?

23 A Before the -- before I went to the Ellipse?

24 Q Yes.

25 A No, I don't remember that. I don't believe I did.

 52

1 Q It's been reported in the Leonnig-Rucker book that General Kellogg

2 encouraged you to go follow him back to the dining room before everyone left for the

3 Ellipse.

4 Do you remember doing that?

5 A I don't believe that happened.

6 Q I see. Okay.

7 Actually, you recall going out to the outer Oval in the other direction to Mr.

8 Scavino's office?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Okay. All right. Let's talk a little bit about the -- are you good to

11 continue? It's been about an hour and 20 minutes? Do we need a break or should we

12 keep going?

13 A I'm okay for a little bit longer, if that's okay.

14 Q Yeah, absolutely. Again, we will stop whenever, Ms. Trump, you need a

15 break. You just say the word, and we can -- we'll recess briefly.

16 A Maybe we plan to stop in another 30 minutes for a quick break?

17 Q Yeah, that's great.

18 A Or earlier, if you prefer.

19 Q Yeah.

20 So let's talk about when you got to the Ellipse. Was there sort of a tented

21 backstage area where you were present?

22 A There was.

23 Q Who do you remember being back there with you?

24 A I was in the motorcade but arrived separately from the President and my

25 siblings. When we walked into -- when I walked into one of the tented structures where
 53

1 the President was, I remember a large number of people. It was just a few minutes

2 prior to him taking the stage himself to speak. There were many Secret Service agents,

3 and my siblings were there. I remember Mark Meadows and Eric Herschmann being

4 there. But there were many more people than that. I just don't -- I recall that it was

5 very -- quite crowded.

6 So hopefully that answers your question.

7 Q Yeah. I appreciate that.

8 Did you have any direct communication with your father before he took the stage,

9 when you were back in this backstage area?

10 A He had entered the tent prior to me. And when I entered, I believe he

11 was -- he went out just minutes before. And I remember walking over, and I was

12 standing beside him at one point.

13 But I don't -- I don't recall specifically what I told him. And it was a very short -- I

14 mean, maybe a few seconds, maybe a minute. That's how I remember it, that he

15 was -- we were both in the tent together prior to his music starting and him taking the

16 stage.

17 Q What was his mood like at that moment as you were standing next to him

18 before he walked out on stage?

19 A Typically, before he would give a speech, he would just sort of keep to

20 himself for a minute and not be engaging with those around him and be, I would think,

21 reflecting on his remarks. But -- so this, it felt -- it felt consistent with what he would

22 normally do prior to taking the stage at a rally.

23 Q Was he still heated? He had finished this conversation with the Vice

24 President that you described as heated. Was that agitation or that frustration still

25 evident in his demeanor when you saw him at the tent?

 54

1 A I don't recall feeling that specific energy from him. I recall him being

2 focused. He was looking at the monitors, and the music had started playing for him to

3 take the stage.

4 Q Did you give him any advice or encouragement before he took the stage?

5 A I don't recall what I said to him, if I said something to him before he took the

6 stage.

7 Q Yeah. Did you hear anyone else give him any advice or guidance before he

8 took the stage?

9 A I didn't.

10 Q All right. Where were you during the speech?

11 A Shortly after he took the stage, I walked out of that tent and behind the

12 stage to a separate, much, much smaller tent where they had a heater and they had -- I

13 believe it was the people operating the teleprompters were back there. But it was a

14 much smaller -- it was a much smaller space. So I did not -- that was the last time I was

15 with the larger group.

16 Q Did everyone in the larger group, your siblings, go to this smaller area, or did

17 you peel off from them at this point?

18 A No. When he took the stage, I peeled off and went.

19 I remember periodically individuals coming into that smaller tent, staying for a few

20 minutes, and leaving and rejoining the larger group.

21 But I stayed there the -- I recall almost the entirety of the speech until towards the

22 speech's conclusion. I left to find my car to make sure I'd be able to participate and join

23 the motorcade in exiting the venue. So I missed a portion of the speech at the end.

24 Q When you were in that smaller area, could you both see and hear your

25 father as he delivered the speech?

 55

1 A I could see him on the monitors, and I could hear him -- I could hear him,

2 though. It was still -- you know, it was an outdoor -- the tent was still pretty open to the

3 elements.

4 Q Yeah. And you indicated there was a monitor there where you could

5 actually see the feed of the speech.

6 A Correct.

7 Q Okay. Did you talk to anybody during that period of time as he was

8 speaking?

9 A I recall people coming in and out of the tent. There were, like I said, I

10 believe it was the folks operating the teleprompter, so I would not have disturbed them

11 while they were performing that function. So I don't recall speaking with them.

12 probably wouldn't have done that. But I do recall periodically people coming in and

13 coming out.

14 Q Did you have any role yourself, Ms. Trump, in the drafting or composition of

15 his remarks?

16 A No.

17 Q Do you know who did draft that speech that he gave at the Ellipse?

18 A I don't know.

19 Q Did you get emailed a copy of it in advance?

20 A I don't know.

21 Q It sounds like you don't recall any advice to him about things that he should

22 or shouldn't say?

23 A Only going back to what I said more generally. I think he would always

24 know my advice, and I would frequently say it, to focus on the incredible

25 accomplishments of the administration. But I don't recall specifically as it pertains to

 56

1 that speech.

2 Q When you would give him this advice, the good advice to focus on the

3 accomplishments of the administration, would you also give him the advice about not

4 talking about certain things, the election fraud in particular? In other words, was, "Hey,

5 talk about this, not that" your general advice?

6 A I don't know. I think it would depend on the conversation.

7 Q Do you ever remember at any point giving him that advice, "Hey, talk about

8 this, the accomplishments, not that, the election"?

9 A I don't remember it specifically as that type of comparison, no.

10 Q Let me show you exhibit 6, which is a -- this is his remarks as prepared for

11 the Ellipse speech.

12 And it looks like, Ms. Trump, you've got hard copies of the stuff that we sent in

13 advance. Is that right?

14 A I don't know if I have all of it, but I have some of it.

15 This is exhibit 6, correct,~

16 Q Yeah. You'll see on the screen here what we've marked as 6 is the speech

17 draft titled "Save America March."

18 A Okay.

19 Q Okay. So do you have any sense as to the red -- this is a document that we

20 received from the Archives -- whether or not the red language was added by anyone in

21 particular.

22 Any insight into sort of who wrote which portions of this?

23 A I don't know.

24 Q We've been told, for example, that the red was -- these were late additions

25 from the President himself.

 57

1 Do you know whether or not that's accurate?

2 A I don't know.

3 Q Okay. Now, these were the remarks as prepared, but the remarks as

4 delivered varied quite a bit from the prepared remarks.

5 Was that common at rallies, that your dad would ad-lib or would go well beyond

6 the prepared remarks?

7 A It was common, yes.

8 Q Yeah. All right. Do you remember at any point him referencing the Vice

9 President during the speech?

10 A I know that he did, but I don't know if I heard it real time or if I learned about

11 it after the fact.

12 Q So my question. During the speech, do you remember -- you don't

13 remember actually hearing him talk about what the Vice President can or can't do?

14 A As I said, I recall that he did say that and it's part of the speech, but I can't

15 recall if I heard that live -- as I said, I was moving between tents and people were coming

16 in and out -- or if I just recall it because of the media reporting I saw subsequently.

17 Q I see. Okay.

18 Well, if you scroll down a little b i t , - .

19 The actual language in the draft speech that is in red -- and, again, we have

20 information this was added by the President.

21 A little bit farther,_, where it says, "Today."

22 "Today, we will see whether Republicans stand strong for the integrity of our

23 elections. And we will see whether Mike Pence enters history as a truly great and

24 courageous leader. All he has to do is refer the illegally-submitted electoral votes back

25 to the states that were given false and fraudulent information where they want to
 58

1 recertify."

2 Again, do you remember reference to the Vice President's power to send electoral

3 votes back to the States?

4 A Hearing this speech, as I said, I don't recall specifically if I heard him say this

5 or if I just saw it reported that he said this.

6 Q Okay. Did you have a reaction to that, when you either saw it or heard it

7 reported, that he, after the heated conversation with the Vice President, talked again

8 about the Vice President having the power to refer illegally submitted votes back to the

9 States?

10 A I don't recall. As I said, I don't even recall whether I saw this specifically.

11 Q Later in the speech -- and, again, this is in red, and we understand it was an

12 addition of his. It's all the way back at page 7.

13 And you don't really need to put it u p , - . I can just read it.

14 It says, "The only reason we lost is fraud," refers directly to this contested States.

15 Do you remember hearing him, again, during the speech say, "The only reason we

16 lost is fraud"?

17 A I don't recall that, no.

18 Q Okay. At some point in the speech the President talks about marching to

19 the Capitol and says, "I'll be there with you."

20 Do you remember hearing him declare his intention to go to the Capitol with

21 people attending or marching in that direction?

22 A No.

23 Q Did you read about that later, that he talked about, "I'll be there with you, I'll

24 go to the Capitol"?

25 A I did.
 59

1 Q Did you have any reaction to that and the notion of him going to the Capitol?

2 A I don't think that would have -- just how I understand the movements of the

3 President, I think that would be very hard to have that have been something that could

4 have happened, based on his protective profile, being protected by the Secret Service.

5 So he didn't -- I can't recall ever a time that he casually made a movement such as that.

6 Q Yeah. And I think you testified before that you hadn't heard at any point

7 before the speech of any discussion of him going to the Capitol or a movement to the

8 Capitol.

9 Is that right?

10 A Correct.

11 Q All right. And you don't recall in the speech hearing that as you were

12 standing in the smaller tent?

13 A I may have. But it was talked about quite extensively thereafter in the

14 media, so I'm not sure when I first heard that.

15 Q We have information that even after the President came off the stage, he,

16 himself, again raised the possibility of an OTR, you know, a movement to the Capitol.

17 Were you there for any of those discussions about him declaring a desire to or

18 asking about going to the Capitol?

19 A I didn't see him after the speech until we were back at the White House.

20 So I, as I mentioned, I left the smaller tent. He exited into presumably the larger

21 one, but I don't know specifically.

22 And I went to join the motorcade in advance of the conclusion of the speech,

23 which was pretty common for staff to start to move out early so that they wouldn't either

24 hold up or, more likely, be left behind as the President moved.

25 Q Yeah. Do you remember hearing anything in particular during the speech

 60

1 that sticks out, any lines, any reference?

2 A Not specifically, no.

3 Q When you went back to the White House, did you travel by yourself or were

4 you with some others in the same vehicle?

5 A I would have been with my protective details, so Secret Service.

6 Q Yeah. But not any of your siblings or anyone else?

7 A I don't recall. I don't -- I'm quite sure they were not with me. But I'm sure

8 Secret Service can confirm that. I don't think so. I don't -- I'm not sure that I saw them

9 again that day.

10 Q I see. Okay.

11 Where did you go when you got back to the White House?

12 A We got back to the White House and I went, I believe, directly up to my

13 office on the second floor.

14 Q Okay. Were you just going to go on with the rest of your regular business

15 for the day? Or what was your sort of plan for the remainder of the day after the rally at

16 the Ellipse had ended?

17 A Well, as I'd mentioned, I wasn't -- I don't recall having planned to attend the

18 rally. So I was, I recall, sort of being pulled into the moving -- the group that was moving

19 in that direction.

20 So we came back to the office. I came back to the office as part of the collective.

21 And I went upstairs and I proceeded with various White House-related meetings that I

22 had.

23 Again, there was no -- in my wildest imagination, I couldn't have envisioned that

24 there would be any violence that day, so I -- it was just not on my radar.

25 Q Yeah, I understand.
 61

1 Did you have a Twitter feed on your phone? Were you able to see tweets or

2 monitor Twitter over the course of the day?

3 A I am. I don't believe I get notifications or anything of that kind. But

4 periodically I would look at it, not with tremendous frequency, though.

5 Q Yeah. Before the President even finished speaking, the Vice President

6 issued a Dear Colleague letter, a letter to Members of Congress, sort of making his

7 position about his authority clear.

8 Do you remember seeing that or hearing that the Vice President had made a

9 public statement about the issue that he had discussed with your dad in the Oval in the

10 morning?

11 A I do.

12 Q Do you remember whether your dad, your father, had a reaction to that?

13 Did you ever speak to him about the Vice President issuing this letter?

14 A I don't recall ever having spoken to him about that letter, no.

15 Q When you saw it, what was your reaction?

16 A I don't recall what my specific reaction was. I think the letter -- and I have

17 not reread the letter since, but it was -- I think he put forth his perspective and his

18 viewpoint.

19 Q Do you remember any discussion with anyone about the Vice President's

20 letter even before you left the Ellipse?

21 A I'm not sure when the letter was issued.

22 Q Yeah.

23 A I believe you just said it was during the speech. But I'm not sure that I

24 interacted with anyone when I was walking to the motorcade or going back to the White

25 House. So I don't recall any discussion of the letter.

 62

1 Q Okay. The letter was issued literally just a couple of minutes before 1 p.m.,

2 which was when the joint session was scheduled to start. I think the speech actually

3 went a little past 1 p.m., so I believe it was issued during the speech.

4 But do you recall seeing it during the speech when you were at the Ellipse, the

5 notification of the Vice President's statement?

6 A I don't get notifications.

7 Q Okay. So when was the first time, Ms. Trump, that you knew anything

8 about unrest at the Capitol, violence at the Capitol, or people actually engaging in illegal

9 activity at the Capitol?

10 A After we got back, as I mentioned, I went upstairs to my office. I began the

11 meetings that were on the schedule for that -- whether they were for that morning or for

12 that time, but it was internal, with people internal to the building.

13 I recall having lunch at some point in that time frame. And then at some point,

14 maybe an hour or so, give or take, after we had arrived back, Eric Herschmann entered

15 my office and asked me to turn on the television.

16 The way my office was shaped is I tended to work at a long table, and the

17 television was sort of behind a wall that would jut out in front of it. So whether I turned

18 it on or turned it off, mute, either way it was outside my view.

19 Probably -- I tended not to have my television on too often, so -- but I remember

20 him coming in and telling me to turn on the television. And that's when I became aware

21 that there was violence that was taking place at the Capitol. That was the first time.

22 Q I see. So it was Mr. Herschmann actually coming to alert you, "Hey, turn on

23 the TV, look what's going on"?

24 A Correct. I was in a meeting when he entered the office.

25 Q Yeah. What did he say, other than turn on the television? Did he give you
 63

1 any sense, a readout about what was going on?

2 A No. He said turn on the television. So I got up and I did just that.

3 Q Do you know what particular network you turned on?

4 A I don't.

5 Q What was going on, on the television? What did you see when you turned

6 it on?

7 A I saw that there was a large crowd at the Capitol, and I saw reporting that

8 there -- it was unlawful in terms of a breach that had taken place.

9 And I believe that I saw that there was -- there were violent incidents that had

10 occurred. But I don't -- my memory is really seeing the crowd at the Capitol for the first

11 time and that becoming the first time I became aware of it.

12 Q Yeah. So you saw images of a crowd and it sounds like some violence that

13 had already been occurring?

14 A It was -- you probably remember the images from that day. So it was -- you

15 know, I don't know which channel I would have turned on, but oftentimes when I did turn

16 on the television, it was on sort of one of the split screens. So I think it was just the

17 immediate impact of seeing for the first time something that I never would've anticipated

18 would have transpired.

19 Q Yeah. Do you know at that point, Ms. Trump, whether or not people

20 were -- had already breached the interior, the windows or doors of the Capitol, or was

21 the crowd still on the outside, or do you know?

22 A I feel like my knowledge of the timeline comes from a later date, that maybe

23 that had even happened earlier when the President was speaking. But that -- I became

24 aware of all of those facts later. So in real time, I mean, the images kind of spoke for

25 themselves in terms of what was happening.

 64

1 Q Yeah. I'll note that Mr. Schiff has joined us now.

2 All right. So, Ms. Trump, when you turned on the TV and you saw what was

3 going on at the Capitol, what did you do?

4 A I probably within a few seconds walked with Eric down the hallway to the

5 Oval Office. We didn't enter through the outer Oval. As is customary, we entered

6 through the pantry, which connects to his dining room, and into the President's dining

7 room area.

8 Q What was your intention when you went straight to the Oval upon your first

9 notice that there was violence at the Capitol?

10 A Well, obviously, it was shocking and completely unacceptable. Any form of

11 violence is not something I would ever condone.

12 So it was -- it was -- I think I had -- my reaction was to quickly go to the President

13 to ensure that he was aware of what was happening and to make sure he issued a strong

14 statement.

15 I must have at some point walking down the hallway asked Eric that question

16 about, you know, is the President aware? I'm sure I would have -- I'm speculating a little

17 bit. This all happened real time, and it was, obviously, to me, like everyone else, quite

18 jarring to have somebody walk into the office in the middle of a meeting, tell you to turn

19 on the television, and see those images.

20 So within a few minutes I would have been down in his dining room.

21 Q Yeah.

22 A I recall walking in and saying, "You have to put out a strong statement

23 condemning violence and asking for peace to be restored."

24 And he did. Within, I believe, a few minutes he had issued that -- he put out that

25 tweet, a version of that tweet. He started the process of drafting it.

 65

1 Q Okay. What was he doing when you arrived into the dining room?

2 A He was sitting in the seat that he normally sits at when he's in the dining

3 room, at the head of the table. As was typical, the table was stacked with paperwork.

4 He would often use that room as much as his desk as a working office and a desk.

5 I don't recall who else was in the room when I entered. I think Dan Scavino may

6 have been there, but I don't know.

7 Q Did Mr. Herschmann go with you? Did the two of you enter together?

8 A We did.

9 Q Okay. And in addition to the President, maybe Dan Scavino? Anyone else

10 who may have been present?

11 A I'd prefer not to speculate, but it was very small. It was -- it was -- and I'm

12 not sure if Eric stayed or we walked in together and he left. I'm -- I can't recall that.

13 But, obviously, you know, it was -- I'm reconstructing this to the best of my

14 memory, so I'd prefer not to speculate. But I believe that Dan was there. And Mark

15 Meadows may have been in and out. But the group did not extend beyond those

16 individuals.

17 Q I understand. Was the television on?

18 A I don't recall.

19 Q Do you know whether or not he was aware of the violence that you had seen

20 on your television when you first arrived in the dining room?

21 A I don't know when he learned of the violence. I believe that he was aware

22 of it because he immediately started the process of crafting a statement, and I don't recall

23 me bringing him up to speed.

24 Like I think he generally was aware when I entered. I don't know when, though,

25 he became aware, and I don't know -- we didn't have a specific conversation about what
 66

1 he knew or didn't know.

2 I felt it was incredibly important that he issue a strong statement. Twitter was

3 an obvious place for him to do it because it was authentic to his voice. He would often

4 tweet. And it was fast.

5 So -- but I don't recall who said it should -- if there was a discussion about Twitter

6 versus not. I just recall the discussion of the statement itself.

7 Q Okay. So I guess my precise question is, were you telling him about the

8 violence or was it clear to you when you arrived that he was already aware of the

9 violence from his own observations on television or from some other source?

10 A I really don't know. I feel that he was aware because we immediately

11 discussed what the statement should say. I advocated for him issuing a statement

12 immediately, and we started talking about what the words of the statement should be.

13 Like I believe I said, it wouldn't have been longer than a few minutes, maybe 5 at

14 the outside, from the time I learned of the violence to when he actually drafted the

15 statement. So it was a very tight period of time, and it was largely concentrated on

16 what the statement should say.

17 Yeah. I'm going to walk you through the statement.

18 Yeah, Ms. Cheney, go ahead, please.

19 Ms. Cheney. I have several questions. Thank you.

20 Yeah.

21 Ms. Cheney. I wanted to go back, lvanka.

22 First of all, you mentioned that you walked into the Oval Office and the

23 conversation was heated. And then you left, and Mr. Herschmann and Mr. Meadows

24 told you to come with them to the Ellipse.

25 Did you -- how did you get to the Ellipse?

 67

1 Ms. Trump. I took the Secret Service vehicle that I would typically take that was

2 always parked outside of West Exec.

3 Ms. Cheney. And so you went in your own car, your own Secret Service vehicle?

4 Ms. Trump. Correct.

5 Ms. Cheney. Okay. And did anybody go with you to the Ellipse in your car?

6 Ms. Trump. Secret Service did. If anyone else joined me -- I don't believe any

7 of my -- I believe all my siblings were in their own vehicles.

8 Ms. Cheney. What about Mr. Herschmann?

9 Ms. Trump. No. I don't -- I'm quite sure he was not with me, but -- no, I don't

10 think he was with me. I'm not sure how he got there.

11 Ms. Cheney. And Mr. Meadows?

12 Ms. Trump. No.

13 Ms. Cheney. And when they said to you, "Come with us to the Ellipse," did you

14 ask why?

15 Ms. Trump. I didn't. They were moving down the hallway, and I just remember

16 them sort of putting their head in the door. I was standing in the door, and they said,

17 "You should come."

18 It wasn't a -- I don't recall it as being a discussion. It was more of a comment.

19 It wasn't atypical for them, for Mark, to ask me to join him in various things. So I didn't

20 view that as an atypical request, but it also wasn't a discussion.

21 Ms. Cheney. And so did you go back up to your office first? Just walk us

22 through what you did then when they said, "Come with us."

23 Ms. Trump. I don't remember. I must have at some point gotten my coat and

24 my things, so -- but I don't know. I don't know when that would have been.

25 Ms. Cheney. And then I'm sure you've probably seen since then the video that
 68

1 was taken in the tent backstage at the event. So it shows you and your father watching

2 the video feed.

3 Can you tell us about that?

4 Ms. Trump. I testified earlier that when I entered the tent, I was behind him.

5 He was already present with many people around. And there was a short period of time

6 from when I entered until he took the stage. And I remember at one point standing

7 near him, although I saw a photo of me, so maybe that's partially helping me remember

8 the exact details of it, but standing near him.

9 Typically, before he gave a speech, he would do that. He would sort of stand a

10 little bit away from the group and look at the monitors and, I think, reflect on what he

11 was about to say when he took the stage. It wasn't typically a time where he would

12 engage or want to be engaged in conversation.

13 Ms. Cheney. So he thought deeply about what he was about to say?

14 Ms. Trump. I don't know that. That would be me -- I've never discussed that

15 with him. It's just I've been to and seen him participate in many rallies, and this felt

16 ordinary to what he would do prior to taking the stage in front of thousands of people.

17 He would take a few moments where he was not off to himself, but there was kind of an

18 understanding just, you know, let him be before he takes the stage.

19 Ms. Cheney. Okay. And then going forward now to the period of time when

20 Eric Herschmann came into your office, who were you meeting with?

21 Ms. Trump. I believe I was meeting with Julie Radford, who was then my chief of

22 staff.

23 Ms. Cheney. And do you remember where you were sitting?

24 Ms. Trump. I had a typical place that I would sit, and I recall that I was sitting in

25 that same spot, which was at the end of a table in my office -- actually the same place I
 69

1 was sitting when you and I once met there, with my back to the windows.

2 I tended not to be at my desk that often unless I was working on email. So I was

3 sitting with -- towards the door.

4 Ms. Cheney. And so Julie Radford was with you. Was anybody else meeting

5 with you?

6 Ms. Trump. Rachel Craddock, who was my assistant, may have been periodically

7 in and out. I can't recall if -- I can't recall how long she was present, if really at all. It

8 may have just been sort of in and out of the room.

9 Ms. Cheney. And do you remember what you were meeting about?

10 Ms. Trump. I vaguely remember that we were organizing some of the projects

11 we were working on in accordance with the transition process that was taking place.

12 Ms. Cheney. And when Eric came in, he told you to turn on the TV. Did he say

13 anything else?

14 Ms. Trump. He either told me turn it on or look at it. I mentioned earlier that I

15 don't know if it was on. My back would have been to it. And even if my back wasn't to

16 it, it's sort of behind a, almost like a half wall, so it's not possible to see from that angle.

17 But he entered and told me to either turn on the TV or go to the TV or turn on the

18 volume, whatever he had said.

19 But that was the first time I became aware that the Capitol had been breached.

20 Ms. Cheney. And then what happened? So just describe for us what happened

21 then. You did what?

22 Ms. Trump. I -- you know, it was incredibly shocking and disheartening to see.

23 I really just recall seeing the imagery on the television, which I felt like gave me the

24 context I needed to understand that something was transpiring that, you know, should

25 not be happening.
 70

1 But it was quite shocking. I mentioned earlier I never would have imagined

2 something like that would have happened. So I was truly, truly shocked.

3 It probably wasn't longer than a few moments, maybe a minute, that I was seeing

4 this footage before I turned around and walked out of my office with Eric down the hall,

5 down the stairs, and into the President's dining room.

6 Ms. Cheney. So what else did Eric say besides turn on the TV?

7 Ms. Trump. I don't recall him saying anything other than turn on the television.

8 And then we were together alone a very short period of time. I was watching.

9 I'm sure he was maybe saying, "This is what's happening," you know. But I was

10 absorbing the images that, like I said, were incredibly shocking and unexpected. We had

11 been sitting there in a meeting moments earlier completely unaware anything like this

12 was transpiring.

13 So at some point, shortly after I turned on the television, we left my office and

14 started walking to the President. Whether I suggested it, he suggested it, it was sort of

15 an instinct or a natural response. I don't know. But it was very quickly I left and went

16 to see the President.

17 Ms. Cheney. So you mentioned that you were together alone, but there were at

18 least one or two other people that you mentioned had been in the meeting with you

19 when he came in. What happened to them?

20 Ms. Trump. I'm not sure if I said -- because I'm not sure if I was alone. I recall

21 that Julie left when Eric came in because he came in almost like, "I want to see you."

22 You know, I think the natural instinct of all of us was to say what's -- you know, it was

23 pretty unusual. He didn't knock. You know, he just sort of barged in.

24 I don't know if Julie stayed in the room. I don't think she did. I think she left

25 the room with Rachel, if Rachel was there. So I would say Julie. But it's possible she
 71

1 was still standing there when we left to go visit with the President.
 72

2 [12:00 p.m.]

3 Ms. Cheney. Okay. But it sounds like he came in in a very unusual fashion.

4 And --

5 Ms. Trump. Eric would come in -- he would come in quite often, so it wasn't that

6 unusual, but it was -- I mean, in retrospect, yes. I mean, he kind of -- he just kind of

7 burst in. But if you know Eric, he kind of does that a lot outside of these circumstances

8 as well.

9 But, yes, it was -- that's why I feel like they probably left when he entered. I just

10 don't know if that's -- I don't know if my memory is perfect on that.

11 Ms. Cheney. And so did he -- what else did he say to you besides "turn on the

12 TV"?

13 Ms. Trump. That's the only thing I recall him saying to me. I don't -- I recall

14 just -- and maybe it's because I was absorbed in the imagery of what I was seeing for the

15 first time, but I just don't -- I don't recall him saying anything beyond "turn on the TV."

16 Ms. Cheney. Had he been in the dining room before he came up to see you?

17 Ms. Trump. I don't know.

18 Ms. Cheney. Did he indicate that he had been with the President?

19 Ms. Trump. I don't recall him indicating either way.

20 Ms. Cheney. Did you normally -- you mentioned that you went in through the

21 pantry. Did you know the President was in the dining room? Is that why you went in

22 through the pantry?

23 Ms. Trump. I often went in through the pantry, a lot of times just for ease of

24 access and speed. Instinctively, that time of the day, he would often be doing -- he

25 often used the dining room attached to the pantry as his working office, and he'd do
 73

1 paperwork there.

2 I'm not sure if -- like I said, it was not atypical for me to enter that way. But I'm

3 not sure if I chose to go directly that way this time because I was following Eric, maybe he

4 was leading, or because I knew he was there. So I'm not quite sure why I chose to enter

5 that way, but I did enter that way.

6 Ms. Cheney. All right.

7 And the meeting that you described with Julie and Rachel, do you know what time

8 that meeting was?

9 Ms. Trump. It would've started more or less upon my return to the White

10 House.

11 So I entered the building; I went directly to my office after the speech. I arrived

12 separately from the President. I don't know where my siblings were at that juncture or

13 if they had come back to the White House. But he had already gotten out of the car.

14 He was much earlier in the motorcade.

15 So I recall going directly to the office and immediately sitting down and getting

16 into the day's business.

17 Ms. Cheney. So was it a regularly scheduled meeting that you had?

18 Ms. Trump. Well, we would often meet on a variety of topics that we were

19 working on. I recall specifically that this one had to do with, actually, transition.

20 Because there was a process being run, I believe by Chris Liddell, to ensure continuity of

21 various projects various offices were working on. So I believe we were meeting about

22 that.

23 Ms. Cheney. Did you see the President's tweet at 2:24 about the Vice President?

24 Ms. Trump. I didn't.

25 Ms. Cheney. You didn't see it that day?

 74

1 Ms. Trump. I'm sure I saw it that day. I didn't see it real-time or prior to

2 Eric Herschmann having come to my office.

3 Ms. Cheney. Okay.

4 Thank you.

5 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

6 Mr. Benson. Do you want to take a break?

7 Ms. Trump. Yeah, maybe if we could have 5 minutes?

8 Yeah. I was just going to ask, Ms. Trump, if now -- you had said

9 "about 30 minutes" about 45 minutes ago. So why don't we take 5 minutes or so now?

10 Or longer. I mean, at some point, we could take more of a lunch-type break.

11 My intention is to finish here, sort of, by close of business. I don't want this to

12 drag out unnecessarily. But I also want to give you the time to, you know, get a bite to

13 eat or whatever.

14 So you tell me. We can take a short break now or longer, whatever is

15 convenient.

16 Ms. Trump. What time do you have?

17 It's 12:05 p.m.

18 Ms. Trump. Shall we convene for lunch, then, and reconvene at -- what time do

19 you think? 12:45?

20 Mr. Benson. 12:45?

21 ~ 12:45?

22 Ms. Trump. Does that work for everyone?

23 Yeah. That's absolutely fine. Why don't we take 40 minutes,

24 and we'll plan on going from 12:45 until we finish.

25 Ms. Trump. Terrific.

 75

1 Okay. All right. Thank you. We'll see you at 12:45.

2 Ms. Trump. Thanks. Bye.

5
-
[Recess.]

~
Bye.

All right. Let's go back on the record.

6 Are the court reporters ready to go?

7 The Reporter. Yes, sir. Thank you.

8 ~ Okay. Great.

9 BY

10 Q All right. So, Ms. Trump, where we left off, we were talking about you

11 being back in your office in a meeting. I want to see if I can get a little bit more specific

12 with respect to time.

13 So I'm going to ask-to put back up on the screen exhibit No. 4, which is that

14 daily diary document. And just as a starting point, let's look at when the diary reflects

15 that the President returned to the Oval Office upon conclusion of the Ellipse speech.

16 So it looks like at 1:19 p.m. the President returned to the south grounds at the

17 White House and went to the Oval Office.

18 And I think you said, Ms. Trump, that he was ahead of you; that if there was, sort

19 of, a line of cars, he was ahead of you in line, so that you would've returned shortly after

20 1:19. Is that right?

21 A Correct.

22 Q All right. And upon your return, you went immediately up to your office.

23 Is that right?

24 A I went, to the best of my memory, right to the office.

25 Q Okay.
 76

1 You said you got lunch. Did you personally go get lunch, or was lunch delivered

2 to you in your office? Do you remember?

3 A That's what I don't know. When you walk into West Exec, the Navy Mess is

4 right there, and they have a takeout counter. So I may have stopped there to get my

5 lunch, or I may have ordered the lunch when I was already upstairs. So I don't --

6 Q I see.

7 A -- remember exactly if I went directly there or stopped in to take out my

8 lunch at the Navy Mess.

9 Q Okay.

10 And you said, when you got upstairs to your office, you did not immediately turn

11 on the television, right? It wasn't until Mr. Herschmann --

12 A I --

13 Q -- came and told you to turn it on.

14 A Correct. And I think I testified to the fact that it may have been on and on

15 mute. But I'm pretty sure it was off and that I actually turned it on for the first time

16 when Mr. Herschmann came to the office.

17 Q Okay.

18 So I'll just share with you some of the specific other evidence that the select

19 committee has obtained, just about pinpoint timing of when things occurred.

20 For example, FOX News reported at 2:04 p.m. that thousands upon thousands of

21 protesters had marched to the Capitol. The chyron said, "Protests erupt during electoral

22 vote count."

23 Right then, the Cannon House Office Building was evacuated, and there were

24 reports of suspicious protesters and -- suspicious packages and protesters pushing and

25 trying to enter.
 77

1 FOX also reported that police were using flashbangs and tear gas to respond to

2 the massive crowd. This was all immediately after 2:00 p.m.

3 At 2:13 p.m., rioters actually broke into, for the first time, the west side of the

4 Capitol, actually entered the Capitol Building.

5 And at 2:22 p.m., Vice President Pence was evacuated from the Senate, like,

6 moved to a secure location.

7 Now, I think your testimony was that, upon your return to your office, you started

8 a meeting with your chief of staff and your assistant. Is that right?

9 A Potentially my assistant, but definitely my chief of staff, yes.

10 Q And was that your first meeting upon return to the Oval Office, the first thing

11 you did -- I mean, excuse me, not Oval, your office -- the first thing you did upon your

12 return?

13 A Other than potentially picking up or ordering lunch, which I would've eaten

14 simultaneously during that meeting.

15 Q I understand. Okay.

16 We've developed information, then, that, during the violence at the Capitol, that

17 your father was in the dining room watching television. Multiple witnesses have

18 indicated that the television was on and that he was in the dining room watching

19 television.

20 And it sounds like that's consistent with what was going on when you arrived

21 there after Mr. Herschmann came to get you. Is that right?

22 A I believe that I testified to the fact that, when I walked into his office, he was

23 seated at the end of the -- or walked into his dining room through the pantry, he was

24 seated at the end of the table. I --

25 Q Yeah.
 78

1 A -- don't know if the television was on or not. And there was definitely not a

2 large convening of people. It was myself at that point and maybe -- maybe Dan Scavino

3 and Mark Meadows.

4 Q Was the television typically on when your dad was doing his work at the

5 table in the dining room, in your experience? Did he often have the TV on sort of in the

6 background? Was that standard practice?

7 A He often had it on, or he also often had it on pause, where it was on but not

8 playing.

9 Q So the TV had some sort of device that could rewind or fast-forward, sort of

10 a TiVo, for lack of a better word -- forgive my tech illiteracy here -- but some kind of

11 device that would allow him to move forward or backward in whatever program he was

12 watching?

13 A Correct.

14 Q Okay. And, again, you don't recall, when you arrived, whether or not the

15 TV was on or paused or anything. Is that right?

16 A Oftentimes during conversations, he would pause it and then not resume it

17 for, you know, extended periods chime. But I don't recall either way, if it was on,

18 paused, off. I wasn't thinking about that.

19 Q Okay.

20 We've developed information that Mr. Meadows immediately notified your father

21 of the violence that was occurring at the Capitol and that he was watching it on the TV in

22 the dining room, and then he started issuing a series of statements.

23 Again, it sounds like you don't know whether or not that happened until you

24 arrived in his dining room?

25 A That's correct. I don't know what he was made aware of, when, and by
 79

1 whom.

2 Q Do you know, Ms. Trump, whether or not, when Mr. Herschmann came to

3 get you, whether he had already issued a tweet or a statement of any kind upon his

4 return to the White House?

5 A Well, I know that he issued a statement shortly after I entered the dining

6 room. We talked about how it was important to put out a forceful statement, and he

7 issued one within minutes.

8 So whatever time that statement was issued -- I believe you just said that the

9 Capitol was breached, as reported by FOX, at 2:00?

10 Q Yes.

11 A Whenever that statement was issued, I had found out about it probably 5 to

12 6 minutes prior --

13 Q Uh-huh.

14 A -- and went down to his office immediately.

15 Q All right.

16 Let's look at your phone records to see if that helps pinpoint time. This is

17 exhibit 27 again. We showed it to you earlier, but I want to move down in time a little

18 bit. And it looks like there's a break from 11:30 until 1:12. So let's start at that 1:12

19 call.

20 _ , if you can zoom in on this.

21 So I think the first call reflected in your records, Ms. Trump, after the Ellipse event

22 is at 1:12. And it is a call, an incoming call, to you from someone named

23 Rachel Oostdyk.

24 Do you know who that is?

25 A I don't, but I believe this is my mother-in-law's telephone number.

 80

1 Q I see. Okay. - -- the number --

2 A I'm sure we can confirm that for you, but --

3 Q Okay.

4 A -- I am able to see the first digits.

5 Q All right. And it looks like it's only 2 seconds; maybe it didn't connect.

6 Do you recall having any communication with your mother-in-law at that time, at

7 1:12 on the 6th?

8 A I don't.

9 Q All right.

10 Then, just a short time later -- or, actually, an hour later, 2:15, you place a call to

11 an unknown number, t h a t - . Do you know whose number that is?

12 A I don't.

13 Q All right. Not familiar to you?

14 A No.

15 Q Might it be in your telephone contacts now?

16 A It may be.

17 Q Okay. All right. If you have it and can check. I'm just trying to get a

18 sense as to if you can identify who it is that you called at 2:15 in the afternoon. This one

19 looks connected. It was a 48-second conversation.

20 A Let me try and find my phone. Hold on a moment.

21 Q Okay. Thank you.

22 A Okay. The number is?

23 Q I can read it to you. - --

24 A Yep.

25 Q
 81

1 A I don't have it in my contacts.

2 Q Okay. So, again, the records reflect that you placed a 48-second call to that

3 number. No recollection, Ms. Trump, as to who that was?

4 A No.

5 Q Okay.

6 And then the next one I want to ask you about is at 2:53. And that is actually

7 after, I believe, the tweet that we'll talk about in a minute. And that's an incoming call

8 to you from a - number, and the subscriber information indicates it's Cassidy Marie.

9 Do you have any idea who that was or what that call was about?

10 A Cassidy works with Jared and --

11 Q 1see.

12 A -- I believe, was traveling with him, so --

13 Q Oh, okay. And that's only a 4-second call.

14 And I'll get to the Susan Collins call in a little while. I'm just, again, just trying to

15 get a sense of the timeframe.

16 Let me call your attention to the first tweet that your dad issued that afternoon.

17 And this is exhibit 7.

18 So, Ms. Trump, do you remember this tweet when it came out?

19 A Oh, sorry. I was looking for the paper. I see it on the screen.

20 Q Yeah. I'll just read it to you.

21 "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to

22 protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set

23 of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously

24 certify. USA demands the truth!"

25 And this was issued at 2:24 p.m. on January 6th. Do you recall when this tweet
 82

1 was issued?

2 A I don't.

3 Q Is this the tweet that you helped him compose upon your arrival at the Oval

4 Office with Mr. Herschmann?

5 A It is not.

6 Q Okay. Did Mr. Herschmann reference to you, when he came to get you in

7 your office, that the President had already issued some sort of statement or had said

8 something publicly before you were involved?

9 A No.

10 Q All right.

11 This tweet was actually issued after the Capitol had been breached and after

12 Mr. Meadows had conveyed that fact to the President. Did you ever have any

13 discussion with him, Ms. Trump, about why he issued a tweet about Mike Pence after the

14 riot had begun?

15 A No.

16 Q This is a tweet that was issued after Vice President Pence had been

17 evacuated from the Senate Chamber. Did you ever talk to him or anyone else about the

18 effect that this tweet had on the situation at the Capitol?

19 A No. I don't believe that I learned about this tweet until much later, when

20 I --

21 [Cross-talk.]

22 BY

23 Q When do you think -- I'm sorry.

24 A -- upon learning. I was probably still in my office, unaware, at this point, at

25 2:24. But the only tweet that I was focused on was one calling for anyone engaging in
 83

1 acts of violence to immediately stop.

2 Q Uh-huh. All right. When do you think you learned about the fact that,

3 even before that, the one that you worked on with him, which I'm going to get to, he had

4 already criticized Vice President Pence, indicating that he didn't have the courage to do

5 what should've been done to protect our country?

6 A I don't know.

7 Q Did you learn about it that day, sometime on the 6th?

8 A I probably would've learned about it from reporting. But I don't recall

9 having seen this tweet in real-time or anything close to that.

10 Q Okay. So I guess my question is whether or not knowledge of this tweet

11 somehow informed your advice to him, your suggestions about subsequent tweets, or

12 even your own tweets, which we'll get to.

13 A I don't believe it informed them, because I didn't know about it.

14 Q Okay.

15 Now, soon after he issues this tweet at 2:24, we have information that he called

16 Senator Mike Lee's phone actually looking for Senator Tuberville.

17 Do you know whether or not that call had been placed before or after you arrived

18 in the dining room with Mr. Herschmann?

19 A I don't know.

20 Q Do you have any idea why the President reached out to Senator Tuberville

21 that afternoon just shortly before you arrived?

22 A I don't know that he did. I don't know either way.

23 Q Okay. So you didn't have any discussion with him or perceive, yourself, him

24 trying to reach Senator Tuberville?

25 A No.
 84

1 Q Okay.

2 And, again, Mr. Herschmann -- he didn't convey anything about a tweet or a

3 phone call or anything that the President was doing when he came to get you in your

4 office?

5 A I remember him simply, as I testified, coming in, saying "turn on the

6 television," absorbing that information in real-time, and quickly proceeding to the

7 President.

8 Q Yeah.

9 A If there was conversation on the way -- and there very well may have -- I

10 don't remember the substance of it.

11 Q Okay. And, to be fair, you have testified to that several times.

12 It sounds like you don't recall anything Mr. Herschmann conveyed to you about

13 the situation or what was going on to help you approach the President when you got to

14 the Oval -- or, to the dining room?

15 A No. I think we --

16 Q Okay.

17 A I think there was a shared sense of urgency. We walked quickly down the

18 hallway.

19 Q Let's talk about what was going on, again, when you got there. Tell me

20 about what you observed in terms of your father's demeanor or what his state of mind

21 appeared to be when you arrived.

22 A I was still personally in shock by what I had seen. That completely took me

23 off guard. And, like I have testified, I had zero idea something like this could transpire

24 on that day.

25 When I entered the dining room, I wasn't absorbing a whole lot of -- it was really
 85

1 with one goal, to suggest that there be a forceful statement put out.

2 Q Uh-huh.

3 A The President did not push back on that suggestion. As I have testified,

4 within minutes, he actually issued one.

5 And so, really, the whole time I was in the dining room, there was a general

6 back-and-forth on what the statement would say and phrasing it for, I assume, the

7 highest level of efficacy in terms of communicating directly the desired message.

8 Q Why did you, Ms. Trump, believe that you were the one that needed to

9 prompt a statement or encourage a statement? He obviously had a communications

10 staff. He had Dan Scavino, who was literally his Twitter person. Again, why did you

11 believe it was your role at that moment to encourage a statement?

12 A Well, to the extent a statement hadn't been issued, I think it would make

13 sense to issue one. But I didn't view, necessarily, as I walked, that as my unique role.

14 viewed that as any staff member who was present who had access would. You know, to

15 me, it's just what made sense.

16 Q Uh-huh.

17 A And perhaps I took a little bit more liberty because I am related to him --

18 Q Yeah.

19 A -- to act upon the urgency that I felt.

20 Q And what specifically did you think the President, specifically, uniquely, was

21 able to do with respect to a statement and the effect it might have on the rioters at the

22 Capitol?

23 A Well, I think, you know, to the extent that there were supporters of his

24 there, he should be communicating to them directly. It could potentially only have a

25 positive impact. I didn't see much potential for it to have a negative one.
 86

1 Q Uh-huh.

2 A But I think a message of condemnation for violence is always important, a

3 message of unity and respect for police is always important, and a request to stay

4 peaceful. So I believed it would be helpful for the President to articulate that, to the

5 extent he hadn't.

6 Q Yeah.

7 Tell us about the conversation with him about the statement. What do you

8 remember, if anything -- and, again, I'm not looking here for specific words. I'm looking

9 generally for your description of the discussion of the statement. What do you

10 remember him saying?

11 A Very short conversation. I remember him agreeing when I said that a

12 statement should be issued and drafting a statement and articulating different ways to

13 express it that were all variations of what ultimately was put out.

14 Q Uh-huh. Who did the drafting?

15 A I don't know. I don't know. Typically, somebody would --1 don't know, so

16 I don't want to say, but --

17 Q Was the drafting being done, Ms. Trump, on a piece of paper, or was it

18 literally being typed out on a device that could be used to hit "send" to deliver the tweet?

19 A He would do it in a variety of ways. That's why I just -- in this specific

20 instance, I was more preoccupied with what the message would say than to how it was

21 being formulated.

22 Q Yeah. Do you remember there being a piece of paper here in the afternoon

23 of January 6th, or was it someone literally typing on a device?

24 A I don't know.

25 Q Okay. And who else was present for the conversation about this particular
 87

1 statement besides you and the President?

2 A Eric had walked in with me, but I'm not sure that he stayed for our

3 discussion. As I testified, I believe that Dan Scavino was there, but I can't say that with

4 100 percent certainty.

5 Q Uh-huh.

6 A And, at one point in time, I remember Mark Meadows being present.

7 But this could've been them being in and out of the conversation. I don't recall.

8 You know, there was one person that I was speaking with.

9 Q Yeah. You were speaking with your father.

10 A The President, yes.

11 Q Yes. I understand. Okay.

12 And, then, in terms of who was mechanically tasked with delivering the tweet or

13 posting the tweet, was that Mr. Scavino? Was that you? Was that the President?

14 A I know with certainty it wasn't me, but I don't know if it was drafted directly

15 into Twitter or dictated. I can't recall.

16 Q Do you remember the President proposing any specific language, any

17 particular words?

18 A I think it was all largely his language. I remember at the end we said, you

19 know, in addition to the condemnation of violence and the need to respect law

20 enforcement, I remember there was a discussion about adding the words "be peaceful"

21 that I believe he suggested -- he suggested or I suggested. You know, it was part of a

22 discussion.

23 But I think the content was not in debate while I was present. It was just

24 phrasing and timing. And, like I said, it was issued very quickly.

25 Q Yeah. The words "stay peaceful," do you remember whether that was your
 88

1 suggestion or the President's?

2 A I don't.

3 Q We've received information from Kayleigh McEnany, who indicated that it

4 was you who advised him to write "stay peaceful" or to add "stay peaceful" to the end of

5 that first statement. Does that help you recall whose idea that was?

6 A I believe I said earlier it may have been my idea, it may have been his.

7 Q Yeah.

8 A There was agreement on the content and the message. And so she may be

9 accurate. I'm not disputing that. I just -- I don't know.

10 Q Okay.

11 Let's look at the statement. It's exhibit 8.

12 This was a tweet -- and I'm going to put it up on the screen for you, Ms. Trump, so

13 we can all see it, and I'll ask you a couple questions about it.

14 It looks like this was a statement that was issued at 2:38, so it's about 14 minutes

15 after the earlier tweet about Vice President Pence. And it is from the President's official

16 Twitter account.

17 "Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the

18 side of our Country. Stay peaceful!"

19 Is this the tweet, the message on which you worked with him upon your arrival at

20 the dining room?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Okay.

23 And, again, you don't recall the President pushing back on any language, saying,

24 no, I don't want to say this, or, I don't want to say that? Do you remember him resisting

25 anything in particular?
 89

1 A I don't. I walked in, I, you know, echoed what I had seen, and said he

2 should put out a strong statement of condemnation calling for calm, and we started

3 working on it. There was no -- I -- there was no pushback. I've seen that reported, but

4 there was no pushback to me.

5 Q Yeah.

6 Now, the statement doesn't ask people to leave the Capitol. It actually uses the

7 word "stay," "stay peaceful." Do you remember any discussion about whether the

8 tweet should directly encourage people to leave or disperse?

9 A Well, definitely the intention of "stay peaceful" was not to tell people to

10 remain. It was to -- for anyone who was not being peaceful should stop, and anyone

11 who was, don't get involved.

12 Q Uh-huh.

13 The tweet also says nothing about violence, doesn't condemn violence or

14 reference violence. It just calls on people to support law enforcement because they're

15 truly on the side of the country and stay peaceful.

16 Do you remember any discussions about more explicitly condemning violence?

17 A That was the intention. And I believe that a subsequent tweet shortly

18 thereafter did that. I think the immediate urgency was to try to deescalate the

19 situation --

20 Q Uh-huh.

21 A -- as effectively as possible. So I think everyone believed this would be an

22 effective way to do it.

23 Q Uh-huh.

24 So, upon completion and issuance of this tweet, did you personally, Ms. Trump,

25 believe he had done what he could to deescalate or to have a positive effect on the crowd
 90

1 that was gathering inside the Capitol?

2 A I believed this was an important statement and that, to the extent the

3 people there would listen to him, this would be very, very helpful, yes.

4 Q So, upon its issuance, did you stay with him in the dining room or did you go

5 somewhere else?

6 A I recall having stayed for a period of time and then having left and, I believe,

7 gone just next-door to my husband's office for a few moments. Maybe at some point I

8 went back up to my office.

9 My husband wasn't present. He was still traveling. I don't believe he had yet

10 landed in America.

11 So I had left, and at some point I went back and was present when he sent the

12 subsequent tweet as well.

13 Q Yeah. I want to get to that, but before we leave this first encounter, do you

14 remember him saying anything after he issued the first tweet that we just looked at,

15 exhibit 8?

16 A No. I think -- I perceived him to also be shocked by what was transpiring.

17 Q What behavior or words did you observe that gave you that impression?

18 A We had all attended many rallies and had never seen anything -- any -- really

19 any violence, but certainly nothing approaching this. So I think there was just a general

20 sense of shock that this happened.

21 I mean, I know I felt that, and it's my belief that everyone else felt that as well.

22 They'll have to speak for themselves on that front, and I don't want to put words in their

23 mouth, but it felt like a collective sentiment.

24 Q Uh-huh. No, I appreciate your -- you can only talk about what was in your

25 head and your heart. I'm just asking more about behaviors or words that would
 91

1 manifest, with respect to the President, his state of mind, his demeanor, his reaction,

2 emotional or otherwise, to what was going on at the Capitol.

3 A My experience was that he acted upon my entering, whether he had

4 intended to issue a statement -- as I had testified earlier, I don't know when he became

5 aware and who advised him that the protests had turned violent and that some of the

6 people were engaging in unlawful actions and that individuals had breached the Capitol.

7 I just -- I can't answer what I don't know.

8 But my experience with him was that he concurred with the need to issue a

9 statement. I was there. He drafted it; he sent it. I believe that he shared my

10 sentiment of shock that this was happening. And, you know, it was very emotional,

11 so -- an emotional time. So, you know, I'm -- that's the best that I can help you in that

12 regard.

13 Q Yeah.

14 A As I testified, after the tweet was issued, I left. I was still trying to figure

15 out in real-time. I'd just learned a few minutes prior that this was happening. So I

16 think I, you know, probably took a moment to regroup for a second. And I remember at

17 one point using my husband's empty office, because he was traveling on White House

18 business.

19 Q Yeah. Yeah. I understand.

20 Before I move on to the second statement, which I want to talk

21 about the second tweet, let me stop and see if any of the members -- I know Mr. Schiff,

22 Ms. Cheney, Mr. Raskin are present. I'm not sure -- if you can scroll down --

23 Mr. Schiff. Tim, I have a couple of questions.

24 Yeah -- Mr. Aguilar and Mrs. Luria and Mrs. Murphy. Yep.

25 Sorry, Mr. Schiff. Please, go ahead.

 92

1 Mr. Schiff. Ms. Trump, thank you very much for coming in today. We really

2 appreciate it.

3 And you've touched on this generally, but I want to see if we could drill down a

4 little further, depending on your recollection.

5 Mr. Herschmann comes into your office, tells you to turn on the TV. You're

6 shocked by what you see. And your first impulse is to head to your where your father

7 is -- where the President is.

8 Can you tell us, as you entered the room where the President was, what is the first

9 thing that you say about what's going on?

10 Ms. Trump. I don't recall the specific words I used. Obviously, I was shocked.

11 I was focused in that moment on -- and potentially when I was walking with Eric, I learned

12 that he was working on a statement or hadn't issued a statement or some of the details.

13 Because I remember the first thing that I said relating to the importance of issuing a

14 strong statement calling for peace and condemning violence.

15 Mr. Schiff. Was that the first thing you brought up with the President, or did you

16 ask him --

17 Ms. Trump. I recall it being the first thing. I recall just saying it. I don't

18 remember many people in the room, but I wasn't really focused on anyone else. And I

19 said what I felt was important and that needed to be done. And he agreed, and the

20 tweet was drafted.

21 Mr. Schiff. And what do you recall him saying? You say he agreed. What did

22 he say when you raised your concern about what was going on and the need for a

23 statement?

24 Ms. Trump. He immediately talked about what it should say. And I testified

25 earlier that we were generally aligned in terms of calling for peace and supporting law
 93

1 enforcement, and so it was more just how to frame it for maximum impact and

2 efficacy -- which I think, in a heated moment such as this, you want to deliver a message

3 that you think will achieve the goal of calling for people to be peaceful. So most of the

4 discussion I recall being about what to say and phrasing it.

5 Mr. Schiff. So, when you entered the room with the President, was he already

6 aware of the violence going on?

7 Ms. Trump. I don't know. I have heard here today that maybe he was, but I

8 only know what I know. And I think that, clearly, he had a general knowledge, because

9 he agreed that a statement was important, but the timing of that and who advised him

10 and when, I don't know.

11 Mr. Schiff. Did you ask him when you arrived in the room, hey -- I don't know

12 how you address the President -- Mr. President, have you seen what's going on at the

13 Capitol? Did you ask him any question along those lines?

14 Ms. Trump. I don't recall having done that.

15 Mr. Schiff. And you said that, when you raised the need for a statement, he

16 began discussing what ought to be in it. What, as specifically as you can recall, did he

17 say when you started talking about the statement? What did he say that he thought

18 should be in it?

19 Ms. Trump. Words roughly resembling what was ultimately put out. I don't

20 remember if there were other suggestions or if they changed or -- it was more of a

21 real-time conversation, and it happened very quickly. I was not in the room for very

22 long, as I testified, so I don't recall how the statement may have changed in any -- when

23 we started and concluded, it was roughly the same.

24 Mr. Schiff. When you raised the need for a statement, did he respond in any way

25 that indicated to you that they had already been proceeding with one? Did he tell you,
 94

1 "We're already working on it," or anything along those lines?

2 Ms. Trump. Not that I recall.

3 Mr. Schiff. And was there any discussion either between you and your father or

4 anybody else in the room about the statement including a condemnation of violence?

5 Ms. Trump. I believe that that was the idea, condemning -- calling for peace,

6 respecting law enforcement --

7 Mr. Schiff. Did you --

8 Ms. Trump. -- craft something that would be heard, which is -- you know, I

9 believe that was his point in putting out the statement.

10 Mr. Schiff. But was there discussion of the statement including a condemnation

11 of violence?

12 Ms. Trump. I don't know.

13 Mr. Schiff. You mentioned that this was an emotional time, a shocking and

14 emotional time. What did you see in the President that indicated what emotion he was

15 feeling at the time?

16 Ms. Trump. I think he was also surprised and -- I had testified earlier that

17 nobody foresaw any violence transpiring that day. It was outside of anything I could've

18 personally imagined, and I believe he felt the same way.

19 Mr. Schiff. Was he angered that these people that had gathered at his rally were

20 attacking the Capitol?

21 Ms. Trump. In that moment, I found him to be focused on putting out a

22 statement.

23 Mr. Schiff. Any other light you can shed on whether he was pleased at what he

24 saw, angered by what he saw, confused by what he saw? Anything that he said that

25 would give you an indication of how he was processing what was happening at the
 95

1 Capitol?

2 Ms. Trump. After the statement went out, I had left the room, so if there were

3 other conversations that shed more light, I don't know. I believed he felt my -- a similar

4 feeling of being disheartened by what was happening.

5 Mr. Schiff. You say you believe that. Is that based on anything he said, or is

6 that your supposition?

7 Ms. Trump. That was my feeling.

8 Mr. Schiff. Thank you,.. I yield back.

9 Thanks, Mr. Schiff.

10 Other questions?

11 Mr. Raskin, I see you've come off of mute as well.

12 Mr. Raskin. Thank you very much.

13 And thank you, Ms. Trump, for your testimony.

14 You've indicated that your principal purpose in approaching the then-President

15 was to assure that there would be condemnation of violence. I wonder if you would

16 begin by just saying a word about why that was the essential point for you.

17 Ms. Trump. I'm not sure that I testified that it was the essential point. I think,

18 actually -- obviously, condemnation of violence is important in any scenario where violent

19 acts are being perpetrated. I think in this moment, with the events ongoing, I think

20 probably the order of priority would be calling for peace and to respect law enforcement

21 and adhere to what law enforcement is instructing.

22 I think the condemnation, that definitely happened. It happened in another

23 tweet; it happened the next day in a formal speech. All of these things are important.

24 I think, in that moment, with it being an active scenario, I think probably the most

25 important is to call for peace and for people to stop engaging in unlawful behavior.
 96

1 Mr. Raskin. You stated that you were shocked that something like this could

2 happen. And I wonder whether you had ever spoken to the President before about

3 similar episodes of violence, at a smaller scale but similar in character, that had broken

4 out at pro-Trump rallies and marches.

5 For example, on November 14th of 2020, there was a MAGA march in Washington

6 that erupted into violent chaos afterwards, with fisticuffs and people being assaulted.

7 Two police officers were injured.

8 Then again on December 12th, there was another MAGA march where four

9 people were stabbed, many people seriously injured. Thirty-three people were

10 arrested.

11 Just wondering, did you have a similar reaction to those episodes? And did you

12 speak to the President about it at that point?

13 Ms. Trump. I don't recall having spoken to him about those.

14 Mr. Raskin. Were you aware of those episodes of violence that took place?

15 Ms. Trump. I don't recall those. I recall the vast majority -- all of our rallies

16 having been peaceful. So I was never aware of incidents like that that you're saying

17 transpired.

18 Mr. Raskin. But were you aware of incidents when, as a candidate,

19 Donald Trump, at rallies urged his rally-goers to use violence against counterprotesters

20 who had arrived, saying that he would pay for their legal bills in the event they were

21 arrested or prosecuted for attacking them?

22 Ms. Trump. I don't recall that.

23 Mr. Raskin. Were you aware --

24 Ms. Trump. I remember some wording to that effect, but I don't recall the

25 specifics. Never something that I attended or heard.

 97

1 Mr. Raskin. One of the things that Jared Kushner has said, I think in other

2 contexts, but -- but I wanted to ask you about your response to what took place in August

3 of 2017 in Charlottesville and President Trump's response there, stating that there were

4 very fine people on both sides, when the nee-Nazis went to Charlottesville and the local

5 community came out to protest.

6 Ms. Trump. Well, I unambiguously condemn any form of racism or

7 anti-Semitism. So, if that's the question, there's no ambiguity in my mind.

8 Mr. Raskin. Right, but I was curious whether you had spoken to Donald Trump

9 about his response to those events and had talked to him about the problem of racist and

10 anti-Semitic violent extremism in the country.

11 Ms. Trump. We've spoken many times about condemnation of anti-Semitism,

12 and he had given many speeches on that subject.

13 I believe, in the case you're referencing, his words were misconstrued to mean

14 something that he had not intended, which was that the good people on either sides

15 related to the people debating over whether or not statues should continue to remain in

16 public places. That's how I perceived it.

17 Mr. Raskin. Okay.

18 And then I don't know if you're aware of what took place on June 1st,

19 when Donald Trump and William Barr had organized a paramilitary unit to unleash

20 violence in Lafayette Square. Are you aware of that episode on June 1st of 2020, when

21 he crossed over to the St. John's Episcopal Church?

22 Ms. Trump. Yes, I'm aware when he crossed over.

23 Mr. Raskin. Were you afraid that he might unleash a similar kind of violence

24 against the protesters or the rioters who had gathered on January 6, 2021? Were you

25 afraid that he might escalate the violence by unleashing the police or a paramilitary unit
 98

1 against them?

2 Ms. Trump. I disagree with your framing of the question, because I don't believe

3 he did that. The --

4 Mr. Raskin. Okay. The --

5 Ms. Trump. The clearing of Lafayette Square was ordered long before he

6 decided to go over, in accordance with the city curfews. So I disagree with the framing.

7 But, no, I've stated and have complete conviction in the fact that I never would've

8 imagined there to have been any violence that took place on January 6th. And I don't

9 believe anyone that I knew of believed that there would be.

10 Mr. Raskin. Uh-huh.

11 He had tweeted out before, "When the looting starts, the shooting starts." Were

12 you afraid that he might send out a tweet to that effect because there was massive

13 looting in addition to violence that led to death for people on January 6th? Did you

14 have to talk him down from sending out a similar tweet?

15 Ms. Trump. No. I wasn't -- I wasn't thinking about -- I was only thinking about

16 the fact that a strong tweet should be sent, and it was.

17 Mr. Raskin. Okay. Thank you very much.

18 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

19 Mr. Raskin. I yield back.

20 ~ Thanks, Mr. Raskin.

21 All right. Any other members have questions before we move on?

22 No? Okay.

23 BY
24 Q All right, Ms. Trump. I'm just looking at my notes. A couple of additional

25 things about this.

 99

1 We've developed some information from an assistant to Ms. McEnany who

2 indicated that the President was resistant at first to putting anything about "peace" into

3 that statement.

4 "They went through different phrasing of the mention of peace in order to

5 encourage him to include it. lvanka Trump was the one who came up with the 'stay

6 peaceful' line."

7 Do you recall any resistance that the President had to the use of the word "peace"

8 or any other particular message during your conversation with him about this first

9 statement?

10 A No.

11 Q Okay.

12 Going to the timeline, the tweet is issued at 2:38 p.m., and then FOX News reports

13 the use of tear gas in the Capitol at 2:39 and at 2:42 p.m.

14 And then, at 2:44 p.m., just a short time after, that is when the Capitol Police had

15 the deadly encounter with Ashli Babbitt.

16 Do you remember hearing about that soon after it occurred, the fact that there

17 had been a gunshot fired inside the Capitol?

18 A I do.

19 Q Okay. How did you hear about that?

20 A I believe via news reporting.

21 Q Okay.

22 Let me show you here what we've marked as exhibit 9.

23 - if you can call that up.

24 This is a document, Ms. Trump, that we received from the Archives, and it's just

25 a -- looks like this is a card, like, that -- I understand, at the White House, there were
 100

1 these, sort of, heavy-paper-cardstock small documents with "The White House" on the

2 top that were used to, you know, take notes or convey messages. Is that right?

3 A Some people used them, yes.

4 Q Okay.

5 And this document just looks to be a report of that shooting inside the Capitol. It

6 says, "1 x civilian gunshot wound to chest@ door of House Chaber." It's supposed to be

7 "Chamber," I assume.

8 Do you remember seeing this on January 6th? Did this come across your desk or

9 your attention?

10 A No.

11 Q Do you recognize the handwriting?

12 A I don't.

13 Q Okay.

14 So do you believe you heard about the shooting from someone inside the White

15 House or from news reporting, or do you know?

16 A I don't know. I think from news reporting, but I'm not 100 percent certain

17 of that.

18 Q Okay.

19 Soon after this first tweet is issued at 2:38, we have information that

20 Representative McCarthy actually spoke to President Trump by phone. Were you

21 present when Kevin McCarthy called and spoke to President Trump that afternoon?

22 A I remember it being reported that they had a conversation, but I don't

23 believe I was present.

24 Q Okay. Did your father ever tell you that McCarthy had called or report to

25 you that he'd had a conversation with Leader McCarthy?

 101

1 A I don't believe so.

2 Q Okay.

3 The reporting about that call indicates that your father said something like, "Well,

4 Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are."

5 My guess is you're familiar with the reporting about that. Did you ever hear your

6 father or anyone else describe that or other statements made during a phone call with

7 McCarthy?

8 A I don't believe I was present. But there's been a lot of reporting on that

9 phone call, so it sounds familiar, but I don't believe that I was present.

10 Q Yeah. I understand you weren't present, but I'm just wondering whether

11 you've had any conversations with people, with the former President or others, about the

12 content of that conversation with Mr. McCarthy?

13 A No, not that I recall.

14 Q Okay.

15 Now, also, we've developed information from a couple of sources, Ms. Trump,

16 that there were several people that encouraged you to go back to the dining room or

17 back to communicate with your father after the issuance of that first tweet. In

18 particular, both Mr. Meadows and General Kellogg sort of solicited your assistance in

19 further conversations with him. Is that right?

20 A I don't recall ever having spoken to General Kellogg about this. I remember

21 seeing him early in the morning, as I had testified earlier, prior to the speech. I don't

22 recall having seen him the rest of the day. But it's possible. People were coming and

23 going. And it's possible we could've had those conversations after the first tweet, prior

24 to the second tweet.

25 I do recall seeing Mark during the course of the day and just discussing generally,
 102

1 you know, if there are additional things that could be done. But it was more of a

2 general conversation within the White House that day.

3 So I can't fully dispute it, but it was not -- it was not prior to the first time I went

4 into the dining room.

5 Q I understand. But after the first time you went in the dining room, it

6 sounds like you went to your husband's office -- you said it was empty, but -- to catch

7 your breath or to compose yourself, but then you had subsequent conversations with the

8 President? Is that right?

9 A There were -- sort of, at that point, there were a lot of people, kind of,

10 milling around. All the conversations I remember with the President were in much more

11 intimate settings, in that dining room.

12 Q Yeah. And I guess my question is whether or not --

13 A 1just don't recall a specific -- and definitely, you know -- yeah, I don't recall

14 the specifics of those conversations.

15 And I don't recall having spoken to General Kellogg after the morning. It's

16 possible. There were a lot of people. There were a lot of -- there were a lot of

17 emotions. But I don't recall it.

18 Q Yeah, I understand. And I guess my specific question is whether anyone

19 directly solicited your involvement, came to you and said, "lvanka, we need your help,

20 please go talk to the President," and brought you affirmatively into a discussion with him

21 at any point after that initial conversation in the dining room.

22 A I feel that, at that point, I was present in my awareness of what was

23 happening, and I was making myself available should I be needed. So I don't -- it

24 wouldn't have been necessary for somebody to cajole me. Like, I understood the gravity

25 of the situation and was attempting to be helpful in any way that I could.
 103

1 Q Uh-huh.

2 A So, if the conversations I had with people -- it was more echoing what was

3 already transpiring, which is trying to put out -- trying to calm the situation that was

4 ongoing.

5 Q So General Kellogg, as you know, has appeared before the select committee.

6 He's been under oath, he's sworn to tell the truth, and he has provided information

7 directly on this point.

8 He indicated, for example, that he asked you to go talk to your dad about the riot

9 in the Capitol. He testified that he recommended that you, quote, "go back and talk to

10 your dad."

11 And he said he specifically asked you to talk to "your father," as opposed to "the

12 President," because "when daughters talk to dads, generally they listen to daughters,

13 more than they listen to their sons. During the campaign, when she said" -- lvanka

14 said -- "'My dad wanted this,' we really listened. So I knew -- there was a phrase that we

15 used. I think you had to make it personal."

16 So he testified before the select committee that he solicited your involvement

17 uniquely, Ms. Trump, because you had the ability to communicate with him in a way

18 different than he did or other members of his professional staff did.

19 Again, do you remember General Kellogg encouraging you, because of your

20 unique role as a family member, to talk to your father that afternoon about anything?

21 A I don't.

22 Q So General Kellogg's testimony, you're saying it didn't happen that way, or

23 you don't recall that?

24 A I am not saying it didn't happen. I like General Kellogg very much. And

25 it's possible that he was one of many people who, like me, was, you know, upset and
 104

1 passionate about doing everything we could in this situation.

2 Q Uh-huh.

3 A So I have no doubt he may have felt all of those things. A lot of what you

4 just relayed to me was his feelings about my unique role as my father's daughter, but

5 those are his feelings.

6 Do I recall him specifically coming to me that afternoon? No, I don't. But I was

7 already -- I was there. I don't recall ever having been in the dining room with him.

8 just recall having seen him that morning, as I testified earlier.

9 Q Yeah.

10 A I'm not disputing it. I just don't -- I don't --

11 Q Yeah.

12 A -- remember that.
 105

2 [1:43 p.m.]

3 BY

4 Q I understand.

5 Separate from General Kellogg, did you have that kind of unique ability to get

6 through to the President because of your close family relationship? Did you, yourself,

7 Ms. Trump, consider your ability, your access, your persuasiveness with him to be greater

8 than others that were professional staff?

9 A That's an interesting question. I never thought about it like this. I gave

10 him the best advice I could.

11 I also recognize, in addition to being his staff and his daughter, I love him very

12 much, he loves me very much, the same as all of my siblings. I believe he trusts and

13 respects me, as I do him.

14 So I never -- I never really -- I never parsed it like that. I think that he's President

15 of the United States, and I'm one of many people who would share my opinion with him.

16 You would have to ask him if he took my opinion more seriously than the opinion

17 of others, but I did my best to give him the best advice that I could when it was asked of

18 me and sometimes when it was not.

19 Q All right. No, I appreciate that. And I know you can't put yourself into his

20 head or the heads of others.

21 I guess I'm just wondering whether you personally felt like you had a unique

22 opportunity, you had a unique access, you had, among a cacophony of people that were

23 involved that afternoon, you personally could get through or could get something done

24 because of that personal relationship than others and whether that informed any of your

25 actions that afternoon.

 106

1 A No. I felt that I did what I thought was right and prudent, as I always tried

2 to do as his advisor, and long before he was President, as I always tried to do as his

3 daughter.

4 - Okay.

5 Ms. Cheney, I see you've come off of mute. Do you have any question you want

6 to add here?

7 Ms. Cheney. Thanks very much, • .

8 I wanted to go back just a moment, lvanka. So you -- after this discussion about

9 the tweet, then you said that you left the dining room pretty much immediately, I believe

10 you said?

11 Ms. Trump. It was not -- I don't know when exactly I left, but it was pretty

12 shortly after he had issued the tweet.

13 Ms. Cheney. So you waited until the tweet had been actually sent? Is that

14 correct?

15 Ms. Trump. I don't know. Because I don't -- I don't know if it was drafted and

16 then sent. But the tweet was finalized when I left. Whether somebody had pressed

17 send, I don't know, but it would have happened within, you know, seconds or minutes

18 thereafter.

19 Ms. Cheney. Okay. And then when you left, you said that you went into Jared's

20 office?

21 Ms. Trump. I remember going into Jared's office. I may have returned briefly

22 upstairs or not, but I recall --

23 [Brief interruption on audio feed.]

24 Ms. Cheney. Sorry. I think somebody is not -- I think, Adam, you're not muted.

25 Mr.~ Mr. Schiff, if you can mute. Yeah.

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1 Ms. Cheney. Sorry. So you went to --

2 Ms. Trump. So Jared's office was located directly next door to -- I think I heard

3 that started to be part of a question -- but it was the room next to the dining room, so it

4 was in close proximity. But I also knew that it was empty because Jared was returning

5 from White House business overseas.

6 Ms. Cheney. And why didn't you stay in the dining room?

7 Ms. Trump. I don't know.

8 Ms. Cheney. And given everything that was going on and, you know, as you've

9 testified, it was traumatic, did you not think maybe you should stay?

10 Ms. Trump. Everything happened very quickly, from the time I realized, to the

11 time I went down, to the time the tweet went out. I believe I testified earlier I may just

12 have needed a moment to catch my breath and to try to fully understand what had

13 happened.

14 I thought the most important thing was to issue a public statement, and he had

15 done it. The next step was, is there anything else he should do? And I don't know why

16 I left in that moment, but presumably to think about that and reflect on that for a

17 moment and also to catch my breath.

18 Ms. Cheney. And then did you go back up to your -- your office was up on the

19 second floor, correct, not on the -- so did you go back up to your office?

20 Ms. Trump. At some point in the day I did go back up briefly, but I was around

21 his office a lot in the event that I could be helpful. So I stayed in close proximity.

22 Ms. Cheney. And then you mentioned that -- you said several times that one

23 goal was to suggest that there needed to be condemnation. And I'm struck by, when

24 you read the tweet, there really isn't any condemnation.

25 Can you explain the disconnect there?

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1 Ms. Trump. I think when you're in an active situation like this you want to

2 communicate most effectively, and there was plenty of time for condemnation, and

3 condemnation happened.

4 Whether it should have happened in the first tweet, second tweet, which I believe

5 affirmatively said that, or a subsequent speech the next day, that's a judgment call.

6 I believe that it's part of what needed to be communicated. I don't recall a

7 conversation about the timing of when that would be most effective or why that wasn't

8 said in the initial statement.

9 I do believe that calling for peace is -- was very, very important in that moment,

10 with rioting still occurring. But I don't know -- you know, I can't share any light on the

11 timing of or why that wasn't in the first statement versus the second.

12 Ms. Cheney. And so the rioting was underway, and the tweet, as we've been

13 through, doesn't tell people to leave. It actually says, "Stay peaceful!"

14 Was there any discussion about the necessity of stopping the riot?

15 Ms. Trump. I think that was the collective goal of the first tweet. I think that

16 the second tweet underscored it. I mean, there's a balance between speed and

17 perfection. And the tweet went out very quickly from when we entered. And I think

18 the purpose of the second tweet was to reinforce and underscore.

19 I don't know if it's in the exhibits here what exactly that second tweet said, but it

20 was to underscore that these messages we've been talking about here today that were so

21 important to communicate.

22 Ms. Cheney. And just to be clear, the first tweet was actually the 2:24 tweet

23 where the President said that Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have

24 been done. So --

25 Ms. Trump. And it would be the second tweet and the third tweet then.
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1 hadn't seen that real time, what you're calling the first tweet.

2 Ms. Cheney. Yeah, right. The first tweet --

3 Ms. Trump. Yes.

4 Ms. Cheney. -- is the tweet that, yeah, that the President put out moments after

5 the Vice President had to be evacuated because his life was in danger and because there

6 were rioters in the Capitol chanting, "Hang Mike Pence."

7 So that was the first tweet, and then we're talking about the second tweet.

8 I guess my question is -- I know, because you certainly as a family member and as

9 someone who served as an advisor to the President, you must have seen sort of close up

10 what it means to be Commander in Chief. I would assume you did. Is that right?

11 Ms. Trump. Correct.

12 Ms. Cheney. And so as Commander in Chief, is it -- well, is it your view that as

13 Commander in Chief the President has an obligation to defend all three branches of our

14 government?

15 Ms. Trump. It is.

16 Ms. Cheney. And so in terms of his obligation and his responsibility to defend

17 the Congress, was there discussion about that? I mean, he's not just a bystander, right,

18 he's the Commander in Chief who has an obligation to actually take action to defend the

19 branches of government.

20 Did you view a tweet as sufficient?

21 Ms. Trump. The tweet was the first statement on the subject after the violence

22 had begun. The second tweet was a subsequent statement underscoring it. And then

23 the following day, in the aftermath, there was a much longer speech which articulated all

24 of the things that we've been discussing here today, plus called for and affirmed the

25 peaceful transition that was taking place.

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1 I view all of those things as having been important and strongly advocated and

2 supported each of them.

3 Ms. Cheney. Have you seen the video of the people at the Capitol reading the

4 first tweet, the 2:24 tweet, out loud, saying, "President Trump has just told us that Vice

5 President Pence is a coward so we must go into the Capitol"?

6 Are you aware of those videos?

7 Ms. Trump. I have not seen them.

8 Ms. Cheney. And so are you aware of the distinction between statements put

9 out after the fact, after the deadly violence, and an obligation that a President as

10 Commander in Chief has to take action to protect the different branches of government?

11 You're aware of the qualitative difference?

12 Ms. Trump. Could you reframe the question for me, please? Am I aware --

13 Ms. Cheney. Do you believe that there's a -- sure.

14 Do you believe there's a difference between the obligation that a Commander in

15 Chief has to defend the Congress from violent assault and statements of condemnation

16 that are put out after the fact?

17 Ms. Trump. Well, I think the statement was put out while the events were

18 ongoing.

19 Ms. Cheney. The statement about Mike Pence being a coward?

20 Ms. Trump. I agree that the President has an obligation to defend the country

21 against any threats, and so do the police and so do the Capitol Police. And so I believe

22 that, yes, I do believe that, of course.

23 Ms. Cheney. And certainly you're aware of the bloody hand-to-hand combat

24 that the Capitol Police engaged in, in fact, that the Capitol Police were engaged in while

25 the President was sitting in his dining room?

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1 I mean, I'm certain -- go ahead and answer the question.

2 Ms. Trump. I don't know about the specific time frame or what transpired and

3 where the President was at that moment in time. But, of course, I've heard of the acts

4 of violence that happened, and they're inexcusable and should be condemned.

5 Ms. Cheney. So I just -- I want to make sure you're not suggesting that the

6 Capitol Police failed to carry out their duty that day.

7 Ms. Trump. I'm not suggesting -- I did not say that, no. I said that I feel every

8 member of law enforcement, and, of course, the President, feels an obligation to

9 maintain order and peace in different scenarios as it relates to them.

10 Ms. Cheney. And so the Capitol Police were engaged in unbelievable bravery

11 and courage. Some lost their lives. Many prevented thousands more violent

12 protesters from invading the Capitol. And while they were doing that, the President

13 initially sent out a tweet saying the Vice President didn't have the courage to do what had

14 to be done.

15 Ms. Trump. I agree that the Capitol Police were incredibly courageous.

16 completely concur with your sentiment on that front.

17 I was not with my -- I was not with the President when he sent out the tweet, so I

18 can't say where he was or what his head space was or what his knowledge of the events

19 were, as I testified earlier. I can only represent facts as I understand them, and I'm

20 doing the best I can to be as thorough as I can to assist in this inquiry.

21 Ms. Cheney. Thank you.

22 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

23 ~ Any other members have questions before I get back into it?

24 Mrs. Luria, yeah, go ahead.

25 Mrs. Luria. I want to start by saying thank you for agreeing to talk to the
 112

1 committee today.

2 And I want to just go back a little bit in the sequence, because in the response you

3 made to the most recent question you said you weren't sure what the sequence of events

4 were.

5 But it appears to me, from what you said just a little bit ago, that you were

6 present with your father after the violence had happened and that's when what is

7 actually the second tweet in the series was sent.

8 So can you confirm that you knew and he knew that violence had started when he

9 sent what you're referring to as the second tweet?

10 Ms. Trump. Sorry if I wasn't precise about that.

11 The whole larger time line of the day was not known to me real time or isn't

12 committed to memory for me now. So some of the events that were stipulated to were

13 and relayed a timing in the question I presume to be true, but I do not know.

14 But yes. No, when I testified earlier that my belief when I entered the dining

15 room was that he knew of the riots at the Capitol, and I further articulated the fact that I

16 don't know what period of time he learned those in. I had just learned them minutes

17 prior. So I can't assist in that line of inquiry.

18 Mrs. Luria. Okay. And did you feel -- it seems that you're saying that from your

19 own perspective you felt a sense of urgency that something needed to be done.

20 Did you feel that he shared that same sense of urgency?

21 Ms. Trump. I did in view of the speed in which he responded. Whether he had

22 already started writing something or not, I don't know, but within minutes he had put out

23 a statement to that effect. So I presume that he felt a similar sense of urgency. But

24 that's a presumption. I don't know.

25 Mrs. Luria. Okay. And then after putting out that statement, what additional
 113

1 steps did he take? Was he making phone calls? Was he calling additional members of

2 the administration, his Cabinet, to determine what other steps could be taken to stop the

3 violence?

4 Ms. Trump. I don't know. He was --

5 Mrs. Luria. Is that because you left the room or --

6 Ms. Trump. I left for a period of time, and I would assume he was engaging with

7 different advisers at different periods of time.

8 And you mentioned several phone calls that I was either not present for or don't

9 remember. But -- I don't know. I only know what I was present for.

10 Mrs. Luria. Okay. So you left for a period of time and came back. This

11 violence lasted for over 3 hours.

12 At the time when you returned, were there additional efforts? I mean, now it's

13 gone on for some period of time. I'm not sure how long you were gone. But was there

14 a perception that things had changed, they were calming down, that more actions should

15 be taken beyond the tweets?

16 Ms. Trump. When I went back, we were talking about additional ways to

17 decrease and deescalate, decrease the tension, deescalate the situation, which is when it

18 was decided that another tweet should be issued, the third tweet, and it was. That was

19 in an hour of the first one -- within an hour, I believe, maybe less than an hour.

20 Mrs. Luria. Okay.

21 Ms. Trump. And then --

22 Mrs. Luria. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

23 Ms. Trump. No. You can go ahead.

24 Thank you.

25 Mrs. Luria. No. And so beyond the mechanism of a tweet to send information
 114

1 broadly to a wide audience that would receive those, were there any other steps included

2 in that discussion that you mentioned to quell the violence?

3 Ms. Trump. There was a taped message, but -- and that there was discussion

4 around that [audio malfunction].

5 Mrs. Luria. I'm so sorry. It's breaking up. I don't know if it's my connection or

6 if others are having the same difficulty.

7 Yeah. Ms. Trump, it looked like there was just a break in your

8 video. Would you mind restating your last response? I think Mrs. Luria was asking

9 about additional efforts beyond that third tweet.

10 Ms. Trump. There was some discussion around whether a video statement,

11 some form of either video or live statement, should take place in the immediate -- in that

12 immediate moment.

13 And I recall generally there being some debate as to whether or not that would be

14 more effective than the two prior tweets and if it would be helpful, generally speaking.

15 As order was slowly starting to be regained, I don't recall when the decision --

16 Mrs. Luria. And who was engaged in that conversation besides you and your

17 father?

18 Ms. Trump. I just remember in general. I recall Mark Meadows having been

19 part of that conversation. It was still a small group, but there were people kind

20 of -- there were people walking in and out. I think Kayleigh had been part of some of

21 those conversations about is there -- are there additional steps that should be taken.

22 You know, at that moment, everyone was trying to figure out what is the best

23 thing to do in this circumstance. And there was a debate over whether it should be a

24 video or a live statement.

25 Mrs. Luria. Okay. And I don't have the tweets right in front of m e , - .
 115

1 Do you have those? Can you read the third tweet? Is this the one where --

2 Mrs. Luria, I was just --

3 Mrs. Luria. -- he said something like "you're special" to the rioters?

4 - I was just about to march through these. I'm happy to do it now.

5 Mrs. Luria. All right. Then I can stop and let you pick up then, because I just -- I

6 did want to talk about whether -- what my recollection of the third tweet is, and I guess

7 we'll get there on the screen, if that seemed like effectual language to accomplish the

8 goal of quelling the violence.

9 But I'll turn it back over to y o u , - .

10 All right. Thanks, Mrs. Luria. And I will cover that here just in

11 the next section.

12 But before I do that, are there any other members who have questions that want

13 to jump in at this point?

14 Mr. Raskin, yep, go ahead.

15 Mr. Raskin. Thank you much.

16 Ms. Trump, did you talk to the President about his statement criticizing Vice

17 President Pence for not having the courage to do what needed to be done?

18 Ms. Trump. No.

19 Mr. Raskin. So did you talk to him at all about the situation of the Vice President

20 and the danger that he was in?

21 Ms. Trump. No.

22 Mr. Raskin. Were you concerned about the Vice President's safety?

23 Ms. Trump. I was, yes. I was concerned about everyone's safety.

24 Mr. Raskin. Why did you choose not to talk to President Trump about it?

25 Ms. Trump. I recall in that moment all of the conversation was about -- and I
 116

1 don't think I had seen that tweet until later that evening, the first tweet -- all of the

2 conversation was about quelling the violence to protect everyone involved, very much

3 including the Vice President.

4 So it's not that that wasn't on our radar. It was that there were many people,

5 many Members of Congress, many --

6 Mr. Raskin. Gotcha. Did President Trump try to call [audio malfunction].

7 Ms. Trump. [Inaudible] you broke up.

8 Mr. Raskin. I'm sorry.

9 Ms. Trump. Hello?

10 Mr. Raskin. Yes. Did President Trump try to call Vice President Pence when

11 you were in his presence that day?

12 Ms. Trump. Not that I remember, no.

13 Mr. Raskin. And did you suggest that he should try to call him?

14 Ms. Trump. I don't recall who suggested that, no.

15 Mr. Raskin. Okay. And, finally, the President, of course, is the Commander in

16 Chief of the Army and Navy in times of war and insurrection.

17 Did you find it odd that the whole panoply of actions being discussed was within

18 the realm of Twitter and tweeting? Or did you talk to your father about other things he

19 might be able to do to quell the violence?

20 Ms. Trump. Well, I testified earlier that there were -- there was a conversation

21 about -- everything was a conversation after that second tweet about what more could

22 be done.

23 I do think Twitter was a platform that was deeply authentic to my father. He

24 used it with some frequency. Oftentimes it would be heard quicker and more credibly

25 than statements issued from the White House. We experience that time and time
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1 again. You know, people responded to his tweets.

2 So I think -- I don't recall why that decision was made, but it felt like a good one

3 due to speed and authenticity of a voice, meaning it was coming from him.

4 Mr. Raskin. Gotcha. So it could have been like the floor of action and there

5 could have been other actions taken.

6 Do you remember President Trump suggesting other things that could be done

7 using the Armed Forces or any other part of the government to put down the violence at

8 the Capitol?

9 Ms. Trump. I don't recall, no.

10 Mr. Raskin. Thank you so much.

11 Yield back.

12 ~ Any other members have questions?

13 Ms. Trump, how are you doing in terms of pace here? Do you want a break now

14 or should we keep going? You tell me.

15 Ms. Trump. I think let's keep going, if that's okay.

16 ~ Yeah, absolutely, we certainly can. And, again, whenever you do

17 need a break, just let me know.

18 Ms. Trump. My kids are getting home very soon. So if we can try to conclude

19 as expeditiously as possible, that would be great.

20 BY

21 Q I understand.

22 Let's go back to what I believe, Grant, you already put on the screen. That's

23 exhibit 10.

24 And I want to ask you about this next tweet. We are sort of walking forward in

25 time.
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1 And this is a tweet, Ms. Trump, that is issued about 35 minutes after the one we

2 just discussed, at 3:13, and it's from the same account, the President's official account.

3 It says, "I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No

4 violence! Remember, we are the party of law and order -- respect the law and our great

5 men and women in blue. Thank you."

6 Were you involved in any way in the composition of the specific language used in

7 this tweet?

8 A I was. I was present when the tweet was and the statement was being

9 drafted. I believe I testified earlier that it was important to underscore the goal. Here

10 he says, you know, very specifically, "No violence!" with an exclamation mark.

11 So, yes, I was present.

12 Q Do you remember any specific language being discussed with the President

13 that should or should not be included in this message -- "Hey, you got to say this or you

14 can't say that" -- that sort of thing?

15 A That was common when he was drafting statements, but I don't remember

16 specifically, no.

17 Q Okay. There's no reference here to asking people to leave the Capitol. As

18 a matter of fact, you could read this by essentially -- as encouraging people to stay but be

19 peaceful.

20 Do you remember any discussion about whether or not the tweet needed to ask

21 people to leave or disperse?

22 A No.

23 Q Was the President at all resistant to saying anything about that, about

24 leaving or dispersing?

25 A No. I believe that that was his goal with this tweet. But, no, I don't know
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1 either way.

2 Q Did the President ever express reluctance to criticize these people because

3 so many of them were his supporters?

4 A Not that I recall, no.

5 Q Did he push back in any way, Ms. Trump, that you recall about any particular

6 language or any particular message being included in this tweet?

7 A No.

8 Q All right. Again, but you said before that the goal was to condemn

9 violence. The word "condemn" doesn't appear. There's no condemnation other than

10 a prospective encouragement to people to remain peaceful.

11 Again, do you remember any discussion about whether this went far enough to

12 condemn violence?

13 A No. I thought we collectively thought this was an important message. It

14 was only, to your point, 30 or so minutes after the first one and underscoring it.

15 Q Yeah. Why, in your view, was it important to issue another tweet after just

16 35 minutes before he had issued a very similar message? Why was it important to say

17 something else?

18 A I think the gravity of the situation.

19 Q And was that discussed, "Hey, we need to say something else, the gravity of

20 the situation calls for more"? Tell me more about the discussion whether we needed to

21 send -- you needed to send a second statement.

22 A I don't recall what the discussion was. I remember feeling that it would be

23 helpful to tweet again. Why, meaning what was the exact? I think just mainly because

24 it's something you can do real time that only had the ability to be helpful and not

25 harmful.
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1 Q Yeah. Anything different about the process with this one from the one

2 35 minutes before in terms of a piece of paper or typing it into a telephone? Was the

3 process the same or was it different in any way?

4 A I don't recall.

5 Q Do you remember who else was present for the discussion of this tweet, the

6 third tweet in sequence from that day?

7 A I don't. I feel that there were more people present, but it was still a

8 small -- it was still a small group.

9 Q Yeah. Okay. And did that conversation about this tweet take place in the

10 dining room, much like the discussion of the prior tweet?

11 A I believe so.

12 Q Do you remember at that point whether the television in the dining room

13 was on?

14 A I believe that it was.

15 Q Okay. So during the discussion of this tweet, were you and everyone in the

16 room able to actually watch the violence that was occurring at the Capitol on the

17 television on the wall?

18 A I believe that the television was on, yes.

19 Q Okay. So you recall it was on by this time?

20 A Without complete certainty, but I believe that it was.

21 Q It could have been on earlier, you just don't recall, right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Okay. Now, right after this tweet is issued, Ms. Trump, at 3:13, you

24 personally, from your Twitter account, issued a tweet. Is that right?

25 A I don't recall the specific timing, but I did put out a tweet, yes.
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1 Q Why, after your father, the President, had tweeted, do you two minutes

2 later decide that you personally needed to issue a statement via Twitter?

3 A Well, up until this point, I hadn't been focusing on myself. I thought that

4 his voice was the most important. And that's where my energies was -- were -- that's

5 where my energies were geared.

6 After the second tweet I felt it was important for me to personally say something

7 as well, obviously condemning the violence.

8 But that wasn't my -- that wasn't the first thing I thought about. You know, his

9 voice would -- had the potential to be far more powerful than mine in the circumstance.

10 And I didn't want to take any of the time that I was with him working on these thinking

11 about crafting my own. So it wasn't until shortly after.

12 Q Did you feel that you needed to say something beyond what the President

13 had said, that you needed to sort of amplify the message or go further somehow and that

14 informed your decision to issue your own statement?

15 A No. I felt that it was -- I mean, I think many people should have issued a

16 statement. I think that -- I felt that it was important to also opine. But, as I said, the

17 President's statement was the top priority, and subsequent statement.

18 I was with him most of the time, and I don't make it a habit of keeping my phone

19 with me when I'm with him. I had stepped out periodically -- or I had stepped out, I

20 think, once during this period of time between the second and third tweet. But I don't

21 recall having my phone with me until later.

22 Q Yeah. So when you issued your tweet, did you just literally do that on your

23 Twitter app on your personal phone at some point in the White House at some point?

24 A I don't remember, but I believe so, yes.

25 Q Did you talk to anyone about either the fact that you were going to put out a
 122

1 statement or the specific words that you were going to use?

2 A I mentioned in passing to Julie that now that the President had put out a

3 statement I, you know, was going to put something out, but it was more just I'm -- it was

4 more me just speaking out loud.

5 Q Did you ask Mark Meadows for any either advice or insight into whether or

6 what you should post on Twitter yourself?

7 A No, not that I remember.

8 Q Yeah. I appreciate that.

9 A I believe my tweet was really -- I don't want to say an afterthought. It's

10 important for all of us to condemn violence. But it was not my priority that day.

11 Q Okay. So it sounds like not a lot of lengthy deliberation or multiple voices

12 in this. This was just sort of off the cuff how you felt when you issued it? Is that

13 generally accurate?

14 A Yeah. I mean, definitely no lengthy deliberations.

15 Q Yeah. Let's look at it. It's exhibit 11.

16 So it's issued at 3:15, just two minutes after the tweet about, "We're the party of

17 law and order." And it's retweeting the President's 2:38 statement, right, the statement

18 that we talked about earlier about, "Please support our Capitol Police and Law

19 Enforcement."

20 And your language is very simple. It says, "American Patriots -- any security

21 breach or disrespect to our law enforcement is unacceptable. The violence must stop

22 immediately. Please be peaceful."

23 Let's talk first about your decision to use the term "American Patriots." What

24 was your intention characterizing the audience for this tweet as patriots?

25 A I was intending to communicate that American patriots don't disrespect law

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1 enforcement and don't engage in acts of violence. That's why I said sort of American

2 patriots, like in the way that I framed it. And then, of course, the violence must stop

3 immediately and please be peaceful.

4 Again, my message was very secondary. I think that's probably why I retweeted

5 the President. I think the more people that saw his message on this front, the better.

6 Q So your use of the term "patriots" was sort of aspirational or sort of

7 encouraging people to behave like patriots, nonviolent protests?

8 A I believe that I was intending to say that American patriots don't engage in

9 unlawful behavior and don't disrespect law enforcement.

10 Q Now, what you don't -- again, Ms. Trump, what you don't say, much like we

11 talked about with the other tweets, is go home or leave or -- you say the violence must

12 stop. I appreciate that that is a sort of condemnation, but did you think at all about

13 encouraging people to leave the Capitol?

14 A I felt that that was understood. I felt that that was the intention and the

15 spirit of what I was writing. But I certainly -- I could have added that. I felt that this

16 was articulating that. You know, in this moment violence was still ongoing. So I felt

17 the primary message was about stopping the violence.

18 But this was not -- I didn't have people working on this. This happened -- I put

19 this out as a statement pretty quickly. I didn't think -- you know, I certainly did think

20 about what I was saying, but I didn't spend a whole lot of time composing it. I felt it was

21 pretty self-explanatory, please be peaceful, the violence must stop.

22 Q So the tweet immediately received some pushback or some criticisms. Is

23 that right? Do you remember that?

24 A I recall ambiguity about -- or, like, while I was, you know, just had posted it,

25 shortly thereafter, I saw that a reporter was asking if I was -- I believe you have it in the
 124

1 exhibits, so if you don't mind pulling it up.

2 Q Yes, absolutely. I was just about to do that. It's exhibit -- it's actually the

3 same exhibit No. 11, just further down.

4 _ , if you can just scroll.

5 So I think what you're referring to, Ms. Trump, is --

6 A I saw this comment just -- I mean, I don't know how many minutes this is

7 after, but right then I was probably still holding the phone -- saying, "Clarifying, lvanka

8 Trump, you're saying these people are 'patriots'??" with question marks.

9 I felt it was really important. At least I couldn't even have conceived that that's

10 how that would have been interpreted. That was clearly not my intention. But at least

11 anyone else was interpreting it like that.

12 I do not make it a habit of responding to reporters on Twitter. I'm pretty -- my

13 Twitter feed is pretty straightforward. But I -- and this may be the only time I've ever

14 done that -- but I thought it was important, if there was a confusion about my intention,

15 that I had an obligation to set the record straight and be artful in my words.

16 So I said, no, that was -- I was not saying people -- those people were patriots.

17 was saying that peaceful protest is patriotic and violence is unacceptable and must be

18 condemned in the strongest possible terms.

19 Q All right. And then did you actually delete the 3:15, the earlier tweet?

20 A I did. I believed that if there was a lack of clarity on my part that would

21 cause any kind of confusion in a situation like this, it's my obligation to fix it.

22 I thought it was pretty clear, but given the fact that she tweeted at me

23 questioning my intention, there was -- I had no interest in being ambiguous in my

24 intention. I wanted to be direct and as clear as possible.

25 So I left up the tweet where I said, no, I was saying peaceful protests, and
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1 American patriots don't engage in unlawful behavior, and then, of course, violence is

2 unacceptable and here condemned it in, quote, "the strongest possible terms."

3 Q Yeah. I understand. So you took down the one that had been

4 misinterpreted by Kate Bennett and left up, "No. Peaceful protest is patriotic.

5 Violence is unacceptable and must be condemned in the strongest terms."

6 Fair to say that that more accurately captured your personal sentiment at the

7 time, more affirmatively?

8 A I felt that my first tweet was pretty clear. But like I said, if, you know, if

9 there is confusion, I'm -- it's fine by me to rectify that. And I feel like the responsibility is

10 on me to do so, and I did.

11 Q Okay. So this is at 3:29 p.m. that you, from the date stamp and the time

12 stamp here, that this second tweet was posted, the one that's on the screen.

13 So soon thereafter you got a phone call from Senator Collins. Do you remember

14 Susan Collins calling you soon after this tweet was posted?

15 A I remember her calling me, yes.

16 Q Tell me about that conversation.

17 A It was a brief conversation. I recall her saying that the President needed to

18 engage in stopping what was happening, generally speaking, echoing the sentiment of

19 many, that we should all be doing everything that we can.

20 I told her that the President had just issued a second tweet. I believe I told her.

21 I know I sent it to her -- or I think I sent it to her. So it was a short conversation, but I

22 understood why she was calling me, and I agreed with her sentiment.

23 Q Did she call you, Ms. Trump, because her perception was that the prior

24 tweets had not been enough, had not worked, there needed to be additional statement

25 more strongly encouraging people to leave or condemning violence?

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1 A No, I think she thought -- I know she had seen the first tweet, and I thought

2 she -- I think she thought it was good. I think she thought there should be additional

3 statements.

4 And I believe I told her about the second tweet. I was left with the impression

5 that she may not have seen it yet. It was -- I think he had just issued it. It's possible,

6 though, she already knew about it, but I felt that I was informing her of it. It was a

7 very -- it was actually a very quick discussion, though.

8 Q Yeah. From your phone records it looks like it was only about 18 seconds

9 long, so a very brief discussion.

10 Is that consistent with your recollection?

11 A It is.

12 Q Okay. And, again, during that conversation did she convey to you any

13 sense that what had been said thus far was not enough or he needed to go further? Did

14 she say anything critical of the sort of words that were used or not used in the prior

15 statements?

16 A I think, as I testified earlier, she -- I wasn't sure that she had seen the second

17 statement, and I do think she thought there should be additional follow-up.

18 The next day I sent to her the longer form statement that he put out where he

19 articulated a condemnation. He talked about the tragic events that had transpired, and

20 he affirmed the importance of a peaceful transition of power, and she felt that was a

21 good statement.

22 But, no, I did get the sense that she was looking for something more, which is why

23 I told her about the second tweet.

24 Q Yeah. Let me show you exhibit No. 25. And this is one, Ms. Trump, that

25 you provided to us, which we appreciate.

 127

1 This looks like a screenshot from a text exchange that you had with Senator Collins

2 on the afternoon of January 6th. And this looks like it's taken from your phone, and in

3 your contact you recorded "Senator Susan Collins."

4 And it looks like she texted you at 3:37, just a couple of minutes after her phone

5 call to you, which was at 3:33, "The President needs to put out a very strong tweet telling

6 people to go home and to stop the violence now. Susan Collins."

7 And you responded, at least, we can't tell the time stamp, but somewhat later by

8 attaching a link to the President's Rose Garden statement, which we'll get to. It wasn't

9 posted until 4:17. So at least 40 minutes later or so you responded to Senator Collins

10 with a link to the video.

11 A I believe that I responded almost immediately to her text message telling me

12 the President must put out a strong tweet.

13 I think when I wrote back, "He just put one out," it was just a few minutes later.

14 And I was referring to the strong tweet he had just put out, because it was directly

15 responsive to that question. I think later I also sent her the video from the Rose Garden.

16 Q I see. So when you respond, "He just put one out," your recollection is

17 that's moments after receiving the 3:37 tweet and your references to the statement, I

18 guess it was the third tweet, the one we --

19 A The third, right.

20 Q Okay. Now, to be fair, Ms. Trump, in the third tweet there was no -- he

21 didn't tell people to go home. There was no direct direction, invocation,

22 encouragement for people to go home. It was stay peaceful, respect law enforcement,

23 no violence. But it's one that you could easily read as encouraging people to stay and

24 peacefully protest.

25 A I don't read it as that. I thought it was very direct and calling for no
 128

1 violence. So I read it -- I viewed it as an important and strong tweet.

2 Q Okay. But to be clear, Senator Collins encourages the President, through

3 you, to issue a strong tweet telling people to go home. And that is when she sends you

4 after the first two had been -- or excuse me, the three tweets had been sent by the

5 President earlier that day. Is that right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Okay. Now, a lot of people were calling --

8 I'm sorry. Ms. Cheney, go ahead. Yes.

9 Ms. Cheney. Sorry. Thanks, • .

10 I just -- because we're now up to 3:37, I just want to go back even an hour earlier.

11 I wanted to see, lvanka, if you were aware -- it's been public now, obviously, text

12 messages that Mr. Meadows turned over to the committee that indicate that, you know,

13 as early as 2:32, I believe, Laura Ingraham was texting, telling him the President needed

14 to tell people to leave, to go home. A number of people were doing that. One of your

15 brothers was doing that.

16 Were you aware that beginning as early as 2:30 on that day people were urging

17 Mr. Meadows to get the President to tell people to go home?

18 Ms. Trump. I was not, not until after the fact.

19 Ms. Cheney. Did anybody besides Susan Collins reach out to you?

20 Ms. Trump. Lindsey Graham called, but I don't believe -- I did not have my

21 phone with me. And I believe that somebody else took the call. I believe it may have

22 actually been Eric Herschmann because my phone was outside of -- was outside of the

23 Oval Office, the dining room. But I don't recall actually having spoken to him that day.

24 Ms. Cheney. And did Mr. Herschmann tell you what Lindsey Graham said?

25 Ms. Trump. He -- I remember him saying something to the effect of -- and a lot
 129

1 of people, you know, were feeling some variation of this -- what can we do? Is there

2 anything more we can do, you know.

3 So he communicated to me the fact -- Eric communicated to me something about

4 how Lindsey Graham was calling about the situation and to urge the President to get

5 involved and help create some semblance of order. But I don't believe I actually ever

6 spoke to Lindsey that day.

7 Ms. Cheney. Was there anybody else that you recall?

8 Ms. Trump. No. I didn't have my phone with me most of the day, though.

9 Ms. Cheney. So do you -- in terms of any of your siblings?

10 Ms. Trump. No.

11 Ms. Cheney. Sorry. Did you -- why didn't you have your phone?

12 Ms. Trump. I tended not to have my phone with me when I was with the

13 President. It was considered a best practice -- there would be a box outside of his

14 office -- to not bring telephone devices in with the President.

15 Ms. Cheney. And where were your siblings while this was going on?

16 Ms. Trump. I don't know. I didn't see them after -- I didn't see them after we

17 left the Ellipse. I actually think I saw them prior to the speech beginning, and then I

18 believe periodically Kimberly and Lara would come into the separate tent that I was in

19 and sort of come in and out. But I didn't see either -- I don't recall having seen either of

20 my brothers or having heard from them after the speech.

21 Ms. Cheney. And did Mr. Meadows tell you that he was receiving text messages

22 from people urging the President to tell people to go home?

23 Ms. Trump. He didn't.

24 Ms. Cheney. Did he tell you he was receiving text messages from people about

25 what was happening at the Capitol?

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1 Ms. Trump. No.

2 Ms. Cheney. Thank you.

3 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

4 BY

5 Q So, Ms. Cheney, I want to go back just quickly to the questions about Senator

6 Graham.

7 And, Ms. Trump, just call your attention, Senator Graham actually spoke to The

8 Washington Post just 5 days after January 6th. There's an article from January the 11th

9 of 2021 in which he indicates that he reached out to you while sheltering in a secure

10 location. And I'm going to quote him from the article.

11 According to Senator Graham, he implored her for help. Quote, "They were all

12 trying to get him, the President, to speak out, to tell everyone to leave," he said, referring

13 to President Trump's aides.

14 And this is Senator Graham's quote: "It took him, the President, a while to

15 appreciate the gravity of the situation. The President saw these people as allies in his

16 journey and sympathetic to the idea that the election was stolen."

17 And he was explaining that the President was, therefore, resistant to a stronger

18 statement and that that's why he reached out to you.

19 Do you recall any conversation with Senator Graham about the President seeing

20 these people as allies or sympathetic to the idea that the election was stolen?

21 A No. I recall that Eric Herschmann had told me that Senator Graham had

22 called my phone while I was there, while I was inside with the President, and relayed

23 some element of what you describe. But I don't -- and I speak to -- I spoke to the

24 Senator often, I don't recall that day having spoken to him directly.

25 Q Yeah. Separate from whether you remember the conversation with

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1 Senator Graham, did you, yourself, Ms. Trump, at any point believe that it did take the

2 President, your father, a while to appreciate the gravity of the situation? He saw these

3 people, people at the Capitol, as allies in his journey and sympathetic to the idea that the

4 election was stolen.

5 Did he say or do anything, the President, consistent with what Senator Graham

6 said to The Washington Post?

7 A Not in my presence.

8 Q Did he ever praise the spirit or the valor of anyone at the Capitol?

9 A No.

10 Q Did he ever talk about how much they were fighting or how much they

11 strongly supported him or say anything positive at all about people at the Capitol?

12 A I have seen reporting to that effect, but I've -- including what you just

13 read -- but I've not -- I did not experience that.

14 Q All right. And I'm not just isolating this to Senator Graham. But did you

15 ever, from any other, at any point during the day, or even after, hear your father, the

16 President, talk about these people being sympathetic to the idea that the election was

17 stolen or seeing them as allies?

18 A I never had that conversation with him, no.

19 Q Okay. All right. Was there any discussion -- Ms. McEnany also recalls you

20 at some point that day saying that you needed to speak to Senator Graham because there

21 was some misreporting as it pertained to the National Guard that you needed to correct.

22 And according to Ms. McEnany, you got Lindsey Graham on the phone and said

23 something -- Graham said something to you about a rumor that the White House had

24 denied the National Guard, and you wanted to essentially correct that and say that that

25 wasn't true.
 132

1 Do you remember any discussion with Ms. McEnany or Senator Graham or anyone

2 about pushing back on some notion that the Guard had been delayed?

3 A No.

4 Q Okay. Any discussion inside the White House that you recall about the

5 speed of the National Guard response or doing anything to facilitate the National Guard

6 response?

7 A I remember there being general conversations about the National Guard, but

8 that was not part of my purview. That was not something I was directly involved in, no.

9 Q Okay. And do you remember hearing others discuss that, Mr. Meadows or

10 Mr. Herschmann or General Kellogg or anyone else?

11 A I think just general conversations. I can't be more specific than that.

12 Q Okay. And any information about anyone purposefully just delaying or

13 slowing down the National Guard?

14 A No.

15 Q The opposite? Was the conversation about affirmatively getting the

16 National Guard or trying to provide support to law enforcement at the Capitol?

17 A With regard to status of the National Guard, that was the general discussion,

18 but not denying the National Guard, no.

19 Q I see. Okay.

20 All right. Do you remember any other Members of Congress calling you or calling

21 the President or the President calling them at any point during the afternoon in the midst

22 of the unrest at the Capitol?

23 A Calling -- sorry. Can you repeat the question?

24 Q Yeah. We've talked about Senator Graham. We've talked about Senator

25 Collins. I'm just wondering if you recall any other conversations or attempts at
 133

1 conversations from Members of Congress?

2 Start with you. Anyone try to reach you or you try to reach any Members of

3 Congress the rest of that afternoon?

4 A I remember a conversation again with Senator Collins that evening. I can't

5 recall who initiated it, but it was after I had left the White House. I was back at home.

6 It was quite late. And I believe she was with Senator Murkowski.

7 Q Tell us what you remember about that. It's a little bit out of order, but I'm

8 curious what did she call -- did she call you or did you call her?

9 A I don't know. I don't remember. But I recall a conversation with

10 them -- really with Senator Collins, but Senator Murkowski was there. And they were

11 together, I believe, at Senator Murkowski's apartment and were understandably quite

12 shaken by the events of the day.

 134

2 [2:39 p.m.]

3 BY

4 Q What do you remember them, either of them, saying?

5 A As I said, I remember them being quite shaken by the events that had

6 transpired, which of course was understandable. So I listened more than spoke.

7 At that point in time, we were starting to think about -- and maybe it'd already

8 begun -- formal remarks for the following day.

9 Q Uh-huh. At that point, had the joint session reconvened? Do you know

10 whether or not the proceeding had been resumed and was continuing when you spoke to

11 them?

12 A I don't know.

13 Q Okay. Did they mention that, finishing the work or certification of the

14 electoral college results?

15 A I believe they were --1 believe they were home when I spoke to them. But I

16 don't recall the timing, other than I was home as well.

17 Q Okay.

18 Did they ask you to do anything, again, along the lines of a statement or any action

19 that they were, sort of, looking for your assistance to take?

20 A As I said, I did a little bit more listening. And I may have mentioned that

21 the President was planning an address the following day. But I don't know -- I don't

22 know that it had begun to be drafted yet, because I can't recall the exact timing of

23 this conversation. It was late, and it'd been a long day for everyone involved.

24 Q I understand. Did they encourage that statement to include any particular

25 words, a commitment to the peaceful transfer of power, anything along those lines?
 135

1 A I don't recall specifically, no.

2 Q Did you give them any information about what you would advise the

3 President say the next day, during that nighttime call with Collins and Murkowski?

4 A I don't remember.

5 Q Do you remember anything they said about their experience on January 6th?

6 You said that they were -- I forget the word you used, but they were shaken by the

7 events. Did they give you any specifics about their personal experience that day?

8 A I think that they were, as I said, just very shaken by what had occurred.

9 And, you know, this was the aftermath of that, so they were now reflecting upon

10 it -- upon the day.

11 Q All right. Anything in particular that they said that you recall, other than

12 being shaken and reflecting?

13 A Not specifically.

14 Q Okay.

15 - Ms. Cheney, did you --

16 [Cross-talk.]

17 Ms. Trump. -- bottle of wine.

18 They were drinking wine. I see.

19 Ms. Cheney. Thanks, • .

20 lvanka, did they ask you -- did they raise the issue of the 25th amendment with

21 you?

22 Ms. Trump. No.

23 Ms. Cheney. Did they ask you about the President's commitment to the peaceful

24 transition of power?

25 Ms. Trump. I don't recall if they did. But in the aftermath of January 6th,
 136

1 starting that evening, there was starting to be speculation as to whether that would be an

2 issue. And it was one of the reasons I thought a formal address on January 7th was very

3 important, to assure the American public that there would in fact be a peaceful transition

4 of power, lest they assumed otherwise, and to quell any speculation on that front.

5 Ms. Cheney. Did --

6 Ms. Trump. I don't know if they brought it up, though.

7 Ms. Cheney. Did they talk to you about impeachment?

8 Ms. Trump. No, not that I -- I'm quite sure no, but --

9 Ms. Cheney. So they -- it was a call just to express their concern?

10 Ms. Trump. I don't know who initiated it. It may have been me, because our

11 call had been so short earlier in the day, maybe to check in. I consider Senator Collins a

12 friend.

13 As I said, I tried to do more listening. I think, for them, this was the moments of

14 decompression after something that was quite terrifying for them.

15 So that's -- I've relayed the best of my memory. It wasn't a long call.

16 Ms. Cheney. Thank you.

17 Other members, questions before we continue?

18 Mr. Raskin, yep. Go ahead.

19 Mr. Raskin. Thank you.

20 Ms. Trump, if I could take you back to the discussion of the tweets that went out

21 that day. And you explained to me, in answer to a question, that everything came down

22 to the tweets. Because of the immediacy of the situation, you thought this was the

23 quickest way to get the word out, rather than the President, you know, operating through

24 the Armed Forces or the official channels of power.

25 But, then, within the category of tweets, there does seem to have been this
 137

1 difference of opinion among some people who were saying tweet out immediately that

2 everybody's got to go home, send everyone home, versus the message that President

3 Trump settled on, which was stay peaceful, you know, stay nonviolent with respect to the

4 police, don't attack the police and so on.

5 And I wonder -- I see this in the context of the statements that President Trump

6 was making both at the rally prior to the violence and in the weeks leading up to it, things

7 like: we will stop the steal; we won this election, and we won it by a landslide; we will

8 never give up, we will never concede, it doesn't happen; you've got to fight like hell; if you

9 don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore; and so on.

10 So I'm just wondering, when the messages went out, not telling people to go

11 home but, rather, telling them to stay calm or stay peaceful, did you interpret that as

12 indicating permission for people to stay in the Capitol as a form of civil disobedience, the

13 way that there's been civil disobedience in American history, but not going so far as to try

14 to send them home?

15 Ms. Trump. I didn't -- I wasn't parsing it in that way. I think that -- and I don't

16 recall a debate where people were saying "say go home" and there was push back on that

17 particular language. I think everyone who was present agreed that these tweets were

18 positive, and I don't recall anyone being disappointed that certain phrasing wasn't used.

19 I --

20 Mr. Raskin. Well, you were aware at the time -- oh. Forgive me.

21 You were aware at the time that there was an effort to get Vice President Pence

22 to declare his power to reject and nullify electoral college votes, to return them to the

23 States, and then to exercise such power, right? You knew about that part of the events

24 of the day?

25 Ms. Trump. I knew generally. I wasn't involved in those efforts.

 138

1 Mr. Raskin. But do you think that the idea of not telling people to go home but

2 implicitly indicating permission for them to stay if they were being peaceful was related

3 to the continuing postponement of congressional counting of the electoral college votes?

4 Ms. Trump. That had never -- that has not occurred to me. I don't know, but

5 that has not occurred to me.

6 Mr. Raskin. Yeah. Did you think -- did you ever speak to President Trump

7 about that?

8 Ms. Trump. No.

9 Mr. Raskin. Okay. And so, in other words, you didn't find it curious that there

10 was no effort to actually tell people to leave the Capitol, which had been invaded and laid

11 siege to?

12 Ms. Trump. I believed that there was. I thought that this was all an effort to

13 get people to act responsibly and lawfully and -- so I -- but I appreciate the distinction

14 you're making, but it did not occur to me. I believed that this was part of that same

15 effort.

16 Mr. Raskin. Okay. Thank you much.

17 And I'll yield back.

18 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

19 Other member questions?

20 All right, I know you had a couple of things you wanted to follow

21 up on.

22 ~ Sure. Thankyou, • .

23 BY

24 Q I just wanted to make sure, for my own sake and for the record, that I'm not

25 conflating the communications that you had with Senator Collins during the afternoon.
 139

1 So, based on the call logs that we've shown you, my understanding is that she

2 called you at 3:31 and told you that the President needed to release some sort of a

3 statement. Is that correct?

4 A Correct, yes.

5 Q And, during that call, you referred her to the tweet that the President had

6 issued at 3:13, believing perhaps that she had not yet seen it. Is that accurate?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Okay.

9 So, then, at 3:37, so 6 minutes after that phone call, Senator Collins sent you a text

10 message, writing that the President needs to put out a very strong tweet telling people to

11 go home and to stop the violence now.

12 And then you responded, in your words, you know, shortly thereafter, saying, he

13 just put one out. Is that accurate?

14 A Correct.

15 Q And you were also referring to the 3:13 p.m. tweet in that text message?

16 A The third tweet.

17 Q Correct. Yes. We're talking about the same thing. I was just using the

18 time.

19 That's helpful. Thank you.

20 I only have one other question. So, earlier, you mentioned that it was

21 considered a best practice for staffers not to bring their cell phones into the Oval Office or

22 the dining room or meetings with the President.

23 In your times in the dining room that day, did you see other staffers with their

24 phones?

25 A I don't recall.
 140

1 Q The reason I ask is that we understand that, you know, phone calls were

2 happening that afternoon, and it doesn't appear to us that they went through the White

3 House switchboard.

4 And so, maybe generally, it would be helpful if you could tell me, even if not in the

5 context of this afternoon, but if the President wanted to get someone on the phone, how

6 would he do that?

7 A Typically, through his assistant or the White House operator.

8 Q And when you say "through his assistant," does that mean he'd call the

9 assistant in and ask them to get someone on the phone for him?

10 A It depends. If they were right outside the door, he may use his voice and

11 say, get XYZ person on the phone. If they were further away and outside of earshot, he

12 may pick up the phone and go through the White House operator. In the residence,

13 they had a separate set of staff to handle his communication. So it was a variety of

14 ways.

15 Q And when you say pick up the phone and go through the operator to one of

16 his assistants, is that his White House cell phone, or is that, like, a desk phone or phone in

17 the dining room?

18 A Often the landline. That's when he'd pick up the landline phone in his

19 dining room or in the Oval Office.

20 Q And if President Trump was meeting with someone in the dining room or the

21 Oval Office, say, would he ever ask a staffer just to use their own phone to connect him

22 with someone?

23 A I never saw that.

24 Q Okay.

25 And I'm sure t h a t - has already asked this, but just to clarify for my own
 141

1 understanding: Do you recall phone calls happening that the President was on at any

2 point that afternoon or even any discussions of getting people on the phone?

3 A I recall that there were various phone calls, but I don't recall the specifics of

4 them or who initiated them, if they were incoming or outgoing, no.

5 Q Do you know who any of the phone calls were with?

6 A No. I wasn't privy to them.

7 Q Were you present when he was speaking with anyone on the phone that you

8 can recall?

9 A I just remember it was a busy day, so, like I said, people were coming in and

10 out, and maybe I'm just assuming that there were phone calls being made. But, no, I

11 don't have specific recollections.

12 Q Do you recall anyone else in the room -- not President Trump, but any of the

13 other staffers in the room being on the phone?

14 A No.

15 Q Okay.

16 That's all I have.

17 ~ Ms. Trump, we've been going for a little over 2 hours. Is now a

18 good time for a short break, 5 minutes or so?

19 Ms. Trump. Sure. And are we wrapping up? Are we getting close to having

20 concluded today?

21 ~ I don't think we're close to wrapping up. I'm going to try my best

22 to finish by 6 o'clock, but if you need to make other plans with respect to your

23 childcare -- and I'm sorry for this. I really appreciate your cooperation. We really want

24 to finish this in one sitting and not have to come back with any followups. So, if

25 possible, I'd like to shoot for finishing by 6:00.

 142

1 Ms. Trump. All right.

2 Thank you.

3 Ms. Trump. Thank you. We'll take 5 minutes.

4 Three o'clock, we'll start back. Thank you.

5 [Recess.]

6 ~ So we'll go back on the record.

7 BY
8 Q I want to turn your attention now, if I can, to the recording of the President's

9 statement in the Rose Garden.

10 Do you remember, before the actual recording was made, discussions with him

11 about what he might/could say in a now taped -- not a tweet, but a taped statement that

12 he could release in the midst of the riot?

13 A No.

14 Q Did you have any discussions with him prior to him recording -- about that

15 statement, prior to him recording it?

16 A No. I wasn't --

17 Q Who--

18 A -- involved in that --

19 Q Sorry.

20 A -- in that video recording.

21 Q Okay. Do you know who was?

22 A I don't.

23 Q Do you know if Mr. Herschmann, for instance, was involved in drafting or

24 helping craft that message?

25 A I don't.
 143

1 Q Okay.

2 It sounds like, just in terms of your presence, you were there in the dining room

3 for the composition of those two 2:38 and 3:13 p.m. tweets. Did you then leave the

4 dining room and go back to your office or go elsewhere?

5 A I don't recall, but I was not -- I did not know -- have prior knowledge of the

6 video statement before seeing it released.

7 Q Okay.

8 So, if you go all the way back to the time line -- and this, I think, was exhibit 4 -- it

9 indicates -- and Grant can call it up on the screen -- that the President went to the Rose

10 Garden at 4:03 p.m.

11 _ , this is on page 3, most of the way down the page.

12 The President went to the Rose Garden at 4:03. From 4:03 to 4:07, he

13 participated in a videotaping session of a message to supporters, asking them to

14 peacefully leave the U.S. Capitol. And then at 4:07 he returns to the Oval Office.

15 So it sounds like, Ms. Trump, you weren't with him or present at any point during

16 him going to or from the Rose Garden. Is that right?

17 A I was not with him when he went to the Rose Garden, and I'm not sure if I

18 was with him afterwards.

19 Q Okay. And even though you weren't with him, you didn't have any

20 knowledge that he intended to do something like this, a taped statement, before he did

21 it?

22 A No.

23 Q Okay.

24 Let me just show you quickly exhibit 12. This is a draft of, we think, the remarks

25 that were made in the Rose Garden.

 144

1 So, even though you weren't present or aware, do you remember seeing this or

2 any draft of a statement that the President himself might issue other than the tweets that

3 we've discussed?

4 A No.

5 Q So you don't know who was involved in drafting these remarks?

6 A I don't.

7 Q Okay. These are not the remarks that were ultimately given. He gave, we

8 have been told, sort of an ad-libbed version or an off-the-cuff version of the remarks in

9 the Rose Garden.

10 Do you know who was present with him at the time that he taped that statement

11 in the Rose Garden?

12 A I don't.

13 Q Okay. We've been told, for instance, that Mr. Herschmann was with him.

14 Did Mr. Herschmann ever tell you later about the fact that he was with the President in

15 the Rose Garden or talk about that statement in particular?

16 A No.

17 Q We've been told that Mr. Herschmann actually criticized an initial practice or

18 an initial version of that, indicated that it needed to be stronger, more forceful and

19 affirmative in telling people to go home.

20 Did you ever hear about that from Mr. Herschmann or others?

21 A I didn't.

22 Q Did anyone, Ms. Trump, tell you -- this is a broader question -- that the

23 President was resistant, whether it was in the Rose Garden statement or other

24 statements, to use particular words, to tell people to go home, to criticize people? Are

25 you aware of any such resistance at any time?

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1 A No.

2 Q You never heard that from any source?

3 A No.

4 Q Didn't perceive it yourself, in your interactions with him, with the President?

5 A I did not.

6 Q Okay.

7 When did you first see the statement itself, the taped statement from the Rose

8 Garden?

9 A I saw it sometime that afternoon, after it had become public.

10 Q I believe it was posted at 4:17 p.m. via Twitter. And so it sounds like you

11 didn't know anything about it until it was posted?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q All right. So do you have any idea how many takes there were or whether

14 any of it was edited, any of those details?

15 A I don't know.

16 Q Okay.

17 Do you know whether or not there were discussions after the release of the Rose

18 Garden about a second, a subsequent videotaped statement? Do you remember

19 hearing anything about that?

20 A There were discussions. I don't recall when they started, I think much later

21 that evening, but intended for the following day --

22 Q Okay.

23 A -- January 7th.

24 Q I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm sorry.

25 Okay. So the discussion you heard was about what he should say on January 7th,
 146

1 not another statement during the course of the events at the Capitol.

2 A Correct.

3 Q All right.

4 Were you aware of any other discussion, after the ones that we've already talked

5 about, about the President saying additional things about the Capitol on January 6th?

6 A I'm sure there was general discussion, but I wasn't -- no, nothing specific.

7 Q Okay.

8 He issued one more tweet, which I guess is tweet number four. Let's put that up

9 on the screen. That's exhibit 13.

10 So, after the Rose Garden speech was released, there's one more tweet from the

11 same -- the President's official account. And it reads, "These are the things and events

12 that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously

13 stripped away from the great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long.

14 Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!"

15 Do you remember when -- first of all, being involved in any way in crafting the

16 language of this tweet that was issued at 6:01 p.m. on the 6th?

17 A I wasn't involved in the composition of this tweet.

18 Q Okay. Do you know who was?

19 A I don't.

20 Q Did you have any knowledge that it was coming before it was posted at

21 6:01?

22 A I did not.

23 Q Okay.

24 Now, he uses the term "patriots," the same term that you had used earlier. Any

25 discussion with him over the course of the day about the use of that term, informing him
 147

1 of the reaction that your use of it had gotten?

2 A No.

3 Q Okay.

4 All right. And when he talks about going home with love and in peace, do you

5 remember any discussion with him at any time about using words like "love" and "peace"

6 in the midst of a tweet about a riot?

7 A No.

8 Q All right.

9 Where do you recall, Ms. Trump, spending the rest of the afternoon after your -- I

10 think where we last left off, when you were with the President, it was before 4 o'clock

11 when you were talking about that tweet. Did you ever see him again the rest of that

12 afternoon, after you helped him craft that 3:13 p.m. tweet?

13 A I don't believe so.

14 Q Okay. Were you aware of what he was doing or where he was going?

15 A I was not.

16 Q Okay.

17 What did you do? If you weren't with the President, how'd spend the rest of

18 your day?

19 A I don't recall. I went back to my office at some point.

20 Q Uh-huh.

21 A He went to the residence at some point in the evening. I went home to my

22 children.

23 Q Uh-huh. About what time do you think you left the White House complex

24 to go home, roughly?

25 A I don't know. Prob- -- I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure we could find
 148

1 out or Secret Service could inform you.

2 Q Yeah. I understand.

3 Now, at some point, your husband got there, right? He returned from his trip

4 and actually came to the White House? Do you remember that?

5 A I recall him, of course, returning, landing, and speaking to him very briefly.

6 Q Uh-huh.

7 A And then at some point he came into -- to the White House, yes.

8 Q Do you remember, that first conversation when he was landing, was that the

9 first time you had spoken to him during the events at the Capitol?

10 A Correct, yes.

11 Q Was there already violence at the Capitol when you first spoke to him on

12 that day, that afternoon?

13 A There was.

14 Q Did you give him any information about what was going on at the Capitol in

15 that brief conversation?

16 A He had the outlines of an understanding of what was going on. Secret

17 Service had, I believe, advised him to go directly to the residence and not to come into

18 the area. And --

19 Q When you -- I'm sorry to interrupt you, but when you say "residence," you

20 mean your home, not the residence at the White House, but --

21 A Yeah. No --

22 Q -- in Kalorama where you guys live. I see. Okay.

23 A So --

24 The Reporter. Excuse me. I couldn't hear the end of the answer. Could you

25 please repeat that?

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1 ~ Yeah. That's because I was speaking over the witness, as I tell

2 people not to do all the time. I apologize, ma'am. I'll restate.

3 BY

4 Q So it sounds like the Secret Service directed your husband to go to the

5 residence you shared with him in the Kalorama neighborhood, not the residence of the

6 White House. Is that right?

7 A Correct.

8 And I spoke to him, and he -- I can't recall the exact conversation. It was very

9 short. But I let him know that the President had put out a statement seeking for the

10 violence to stop and asking people to remain peaceful and that we were doing everything

11 that we could.

12 Q Yeah. So do you remember any discussion with him about whether it made

13 sense for him to come to the White House to somehow help or contribute to the efforts

14 in which you were engaged?

15 A I remember telling him to heed their advice. I didn't fully understand what

16 was happening outside of the White House any more than anyone did. This was, sort of,

17 real-time. And that, you know, the President had put out a strong statement, and

18 so -- but to -- I didn't feel it was appropriate for me to overrule the advice of his

19 protective detail.

20 Q Yeah. Okay. But at some point, he did come to the White House, right?

21 A He did.

22 Q Did you see him there?

23 A I actually think I may have left prior to his arrival or we passed very briefly.

24 I was exhausted. It had been a very long and taxing day. So I don't recall if we

25 overlapped for a short period of time or if I left prior to his arrival.

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1 Q Did you have any substantive -- further substantive discussion with him

2 about what was going on at the White House or the Capitol when he arrived?

3 A The next conversation I recall with him was later that evening, back at our

4 home, where we were talking about the concept of the President giving an address the

5 next day going over what had transpired, articulating it in a longer format than anything

6 that had been put out, and also assuring the American people of his commitment to an

7 orderly and peaceful transfer of power.

8 Q Uh-huh. Yeah. And I want to get to the statement that you encouraged

9 along those lines that occurred on January the 7th.

10 But when you spoke to your husband later that night, did you share with him your

11 experience about what had happened over the course of the day at the White House?

12 Obviously, a very difficult and emotional day.

13 A I think for both of us -- he had just been -- he had just gotten off a very, very

14 long flight and was quite fried. I had had a long day. I think there was an

15 understanding between the two of us that it was a very difficult day, and we were really

16 focused on the next day.

17 At that point we were home, and we were saying, okay, what happens tomorrow

18 and what can we -- what can we help do?

19 Q Yeah. Did he share with you anything that he had done during his brief

20 time at the White House that afternoon, that he had done with respect to the events at

21 the Capitol?

22 A I don't recall.

23 Q Okay.

24 Do you know who your father was speaking to after your last contact with him

25 over the course of that afternoon and evening?

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1 A Do I recall what he -- once he was in the residence?

2 Q Yeah. Do you have any information about who he spoke to or his efforts

3 with respect to what was going on at the Capitol?

4 A No.

5 Q Do you know if he spoke to his lawyer, Mr. Giuliani, or others on the legal

6 team about the certification proceeding?

7 A I don't know.

8 Q Do you know if he spoke to Members of Congress about what might happen

9 with respect to objections to particular electors or the reconvened joint session?

10 A I don't know.

11 Q Let me just show you, back to exhibit 4, the daily diary. And it has some

12 information about those activities.

13 And, Grant, if you start on page -- the very bottom of page 3 indicates that he

14 went -- between 4:07 when he returned to the Oval Office and 6:27 p.m., there's no

15 entry.

16 Do you have any idea what the President was doing during the 2 hours and

17 20 minutes reflected there between 4:07 and 6:27?

18 A I don't know.

19 Q Anyone who he spoke to or anybody that he met with? Any idea at all?

20 A I don't know.

21 Q Okay.

22 And then the next two pages complete the day, and they just indicate a series of

23 telephone communications that the President had. And I asked you -- I mean, the

24 names are that he spoke to Dan Scavino, Pat Cipollone; that he talked with the

25 switchboard operator, who informed him of a series of pending calls; that he talked with
 152

1 Kurt Olson, with Mark Martin, with Cleta Mitchell, with Rudy Giuliani, with Kayleigh

2 McEnany, Jason Miller, Mark Meadows, Steve Bannon, Eric Herschmann, Sean Hannity,

3 and Johnny McEntee.

4 Do you have any idea about the substance of any of those conversations that are

5 reflected in the daily diary of the President?

6 A No.

7 Q Did you ever speak to any of them, Ms. Trump, over the course of that

8 afternoon or evening? I know you've indicated you spoke to Mr. Herschmann,

9 obviously, during the time you were in the White House, but any phone contact with any

10 of those people that you recall?

11 A I don't recall.

12 Q All right. Do you know if Sean Hannity, for instance, ever texted or called

13 or reached out to you?

14 A Not that I remember.

15 Q Okay.

16 Johnny McEntee -- he's indicated that he had a long conversation, or some

17 17-minute, looks like, conversation, with the President about resignations.

18 Do you remember any discussion with anyone that night about who had resigned

19 from the White House staff or the Cabinet as a result of the events of January 6th?

20 A I remember general conversations, many being reported real-time in the

21 press, but nothing specific, no.

22 Q Did anyone call you about his or her decision to resign, either someone who

23 did resign or someone who thought about it but did not?

24 A Not that I recall, no.

25 Q Do you know whether or not Stephanie Grisham, for instance, ever called
 153

1 you to notify you or talk to you about that?

2 A She did not.

3 Q Any of the more junior folks that resigned? Sarah Matthews resigned.

4 Any discussions of resignations that you recall?

5 A No.

6 Q Okay.

7 Did anyone talk to you about a resignation that they had ended up not submitting

8 or people that stayed but might've contemplated it, at any point, not just on the night of

9 the 6th but at any point thereafter?

10 A Not that I recall, no.

11 Q Okay.

12 All right. The joint session of Congress resumed at about 8:00 p.m., and it

13 continued until about 3:00 a.m., when ultimately the electoral college results were

14 certified and President Biden obtained the requisite number of electors.

15 Do you remember any -- were you paying attention to the joint session or any

16 discussion of what was going on in the reconvened session as it took place?

17 A Not that I recall.

18 Q Okay.

19 So let's talk about the discussions -- well, before we do that, let me go back to

20 your phone records and just see if you remember any of these particular calls. This is

21 exhibit 27, I believe.

22 To just complete the day, Ms. Trump, of the records from your phone ending in

23 6030, I think we left off with the Susan Collins call at 3:33.

24 It looks like there's an 8-second call at 3:40 that you received from a 917 number

25 that's listed to Jared Kushner. Do you remember, is that the call you indicated earlier
 154

1 that you had with your husband when he had returned from his trip?

2 A I believe it is.

3 Q All right.

4 And, then, at 3:54 and 4:30, there are two calls, one outgoing and one incoming,

5 from that same White House cell phone, I think you said earlier, that 8941 number that

6 you don't recall. That may have been your chief of staff, but you don't remember. Is

7 that right?

8 A I believe that it is.

9 Q I see. Okay. One of the m's lengthy. It's 250 seconds, so about 4,

10 5 minutes. So you believe that was talking to Julie, your chief of staff?

11 A I believe so. We can confirm that number, though.

12 Q Okay.

13 And, then, later on, there's a 5:37 outgoing call that you placed to a 202 number

14 ending in 1220. Do you recall, was that -- do you remember what that call was about?

15 It indicates it might be your own home phone line. Is that right?

16 A I don't know. I'm not quite sure what that number is.

17 Q Okay. So you don't have any -- it was a 31-second call. You don't have

18 any recollection at 5:37?

19 A I don't, no.

20 Q Okay.

21 A I'm not sure what that number is.

22 Q Yeah.

23 And then there's two more at the very end that -- one is an incoming call --

24 A Possibly our caretaker.

25 Q I see. So that phone that's listed as your possible home line could've been
 155

1 a childcare call or someone who -- person who was with your children?

2 A That would've made sense, yeah, but I'm not quite sure.

3 Q Okay. Well, it looks like 5:37. Was that around the time that you think

4 you might've left to go home?

5 A That's -- I'm not quite sure when I left.

6 Q Yeah.

7 A Potentially around that time.

8 Q Okay.

9 And, then, probably upon your return at home, your cell phone records reflect just

10 two additional calls, one that was an incoming call and one an outgoing call to someone

11 named John P. Matthews. Do you remember -- who is Mr. Matthews? Do you

12 remember calls with him or someone using a phone in his name that night?

13 A I don't know who John Matthews is. I believe that is Julie's phone number

14 as well.

15 Q I see. Julie, your chief of staff?

16 A Correct.

17 Q Okay. All right.

18 The call with Senator Collins is not reflected here. Do you know whether that

19 was made using your White House device or your landline or some other device?

20 A I don't know.

21 Q Okay. All right.

22 All right, Ms. Cheney, I see you came off of mute. Did you have

23 some other questions here?

24 Ms. Cheney. Yeah. Thanks, • .

25 lvanka, in terms of that evening when you got home, I think you mentioned that
 156

1 you and Jared had talked about the day. Can you give us some more information about

2 that? Did you talk to him about what had happened that day?

3 Ms. Trump. I didn't. I think he understood what had transpired. He had

4 come into the office himself.

5 We were more focused on the following day, January 7th, and we were starting to

6 talk about potential ideas for what the President could say, starting later that evening,

7 really, into the next day.

8 But he had just gotten back from extensive travels in the Middle East as part of his

9 job and had gotten off a long flight and was exhausted. It had been a long day for me.

10 I think we just took -- were just happy to be in each other's company that night and put

11 our -- you know, our kids were probably in bed by the time he got home, but just be at

12 home with our kids.

13 Ms. Cheney. In the time since, have you talked to him about your experiences

14 that day?

15 Ms. Trump. No.

16 Ms. Cheney. Why -- I'm just curious, why not?

17 Ms. Trump. I think we both -- you know, we know each other. We know how

18 we felt and how it impacted us and how surprised we both were by it.

19 You know, this period of time also was right prior to leaving Washington with our

20 family. We had a lot of work that we were doing to wrap up our 4 years, professionally,

21 with the transition process. We were actively involved in countless commutations of

22 people serving in some cases really egregious sentences and were forcefully advocating

23 their cases. And we were preparing to move our family on the 20th of January.

24 So there was -- it was a -- there was a lot going on in our jobs and in our personal

25 lives.
 157

1 Ms. Cheney. And so, you just lived through what is understandably very -- as

2 you've explained, an experience that I think was incredibly traumatic and involved you

3 trying to get your father to stop a mob that was assaulting the Capitol trying to get us to

4 stop counting electoral votes.

5 You'd been directly involved in that. It was exceedingly intense. And you

6 haven't talked to your husband about it since?

7 Ms. Trump. We were working incredible hours, trying to accomplish as many

8 things as possible during those final days. It was an incredibly stressful time. And our

9 focus were on the things we could do, not on -- and, to the point I made earlier, I think we

10 know how we both feel. I articulated it today.

11 Ms. Cheney. Has anybody advised you not to talk to each other about the events

12 of that day?

13 Ms. Trump. No.

14 Ms. Cheney. And just going back to the day itself, so after the third tweet came

15 out, then you did not speak to the President again that day?

16 Ms. Trump. I don't recall having spoken to him again that day. I may have

17 been in his presence at some point, but I don't recall.

18 Ms. Cheney. And given how concerned you were about making sure that

19 everything that could be done was being done, what made you come to the

20 determination that it was being done? It seemed like you engaged and then you

21 stopped, so I'm wondering what caused you to decide you could stop engaging.

22 Ms. Trump. I think the statements had been issued and law enforcement was

23 restoring order. So my focus shifted to what could be done on January 7th --

24 Ms. Cheney. And so --

25 [Cross-talk.]
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1 Ms. Trump. -- you know, following the crisis itself.

2 Ms. Cheney. Was there a time when -- well, I know you talked about a

3 discussion that went on about whether or not the President should make a statement,

4 should do something live. Can you tell us more about that discussion?

5 Ms. Trump. I have really relayed all there was to it. I think there were a lot of

6 opinions being offered by people real-time. Some people felt that there should be a

7 recorded statement. I've seen press reports about other people suggesting that he go

8 to the press briefing room. There were other suggestions about a long-form address.

9 So I think there were several suggestions being made, specifically by whom, I don't

10 know, but there were a whole series throughout the day of suggestions being made by

11 various people to various people.

12 Ms. Cheney. Did you ever consider that he should just simply go to the briefing

13 room, go on camera live?

14 Ms. Trump. I didn't, no.

15 Ms. Cheney. And why didn't you think that would be a good idea?

16 Ms. Trump. It would be pretty unusual, but I can't really say why. I don't recall

17 that being discussed as an option.

18 Ms. Cheney. Okay. Thank you.

19 BY
20 Q Ms. Trump, I asked you some questions before about efforts that others

21 have reported that they made to solicit your assistance. I think I read you some things

22 that General Kellogg said about how you had this unique ability, potential ability, to get

23 through to him.

24 After you last spoke to the President, did people come to you and ask you to

25 speak with him that you did not do? Did those questions about, hey, we need your
 159

1 help, could you speak to your father about this, did those efforts continue after you last

2 saw him?

3 A No, not that I recall.

4 Q Do you remember anyone else besides General Kellogg -- well, to be fair, I

5 don't think you recall General Kellogg doing this either. But did anyone else specifically

6 ask you to go to the President at any point during the day to encourage him to make a

7 statement or to take any particular action?

8 A I think there was a lot of collective conversation about what would be the

9 most effective and beneficial thing for the President to do to help in this situation, but I

10 don't recall those specific requests. I've seen several of them reported --

11 Q Uh-huh.

12 A -- but I don't recall them being made to me directly.

13 Q Yeah.

14 A And all of these conversations, they're sort of in that pre-third-tweet

15 timeframe.

16 Q There's been a lot of reporting, for instance, that Mark Meadows would

17 consistently ask for you and would clear the room or would want just you and he to be in

18 the room with the President. Do you recall anything like that, where Meadows pulled

19 you into a conversation and wanted it to be a more private one?

20 A Mark would often ask for my guidance or -- he had asked me to join that

21 morning when we went to the Ellipse. And so it's possible he had said that in front of

22 other people. I mean, he never said in front of me, "I need you to be here with me

23 alone," but it's -- I'm not refuting that; I just wasn't present when he said that, if he said

24 that.

25 Q Okay.
 160

1 In your interaction with the President, did his emotional state or his demeanor

2 change or waiver over the course of the day, in your personal interaction with him, or did

3 it remain consistent?

4 And I mean -- I shouldn't say "over the course of the day." I'm talking about

5 upon return to the White House after the Ellipse speech, when the riot was taking place.

6 A I would say it remained relatively consistent.

7 Q Uh-huh. There was never an increase or a decrease in concern or emotion

8 or any change in his demeanor over the course of that afternoon?

9 A I think the collective arc of emotion was, as people were learning more

10 information, they were more concerned for everyone present.

11 Q Yeah.

12 When I've asked you this question a number of ways, you've given me the

13 conclusion -- sort of, the sum without the math that informs it, right? The conclusion

14 without the manifestation.

15 I'm just wondering if there's anything to which you could point -- statements or

16 behaviors -- that inform your view of him being concerned.

17 A No. It was just the sentiment as I felt it in the room. People weren't

18 expressing themselves like that. You could just -- you could read their energy or I could

19 interpret it, but -- and that's what I'm doing for you here today, to the best I'm able.

20 Q Yep.

21 Taking a step back, Ms. Trump, is there anything at all that you wish you had done

22 differently over the course of the day on January 6th?

23 A I feel that I did what I could as timely as I could that day.

24 Q Uh-huh. Is there anything that you wish that the President had done

25 differently over the course of that day, upon reflection?

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1 A It's hard for me to answer that question without knowing the specifics of

2 when he was made aware of the events transpiring. But my experience with him was

3 that he acted immediately upon entering his dining room. But I do think that urgency is

4 important.

5 Q Is there anything at all that you recall from that day that we haven't asked

6 you about that you think is important, that might be relevant to the select committee's

7 inquiry?

8 A No.

9 ~ All right. I think wants to talk to you starting about

10 the next day, January 7th, and some of the conversations that you started to talk about

11 with respect to what the President did say or should say the next day.

12 So let me turn it over to you, • .

13 Thanks,-.

14 BY
15 Q And I'll actually, unfairly perhaps, start again on the evening of the 6th.

16 Ms. Trump, earlier, you t o l d - a b o u t the conversations that you and Mr.

17 Kushner had that evening about a statement that President Trump could release on

18 January 7th. Is that right?

19 A I'm not sure when those conversations began, because they could've started

20 early the next morning, but I believe they started that evening, on the evening of the 6th.

21 Q Sure.

22 And just for clarity in the record, I'm only referring to that evening colloquially.

23 So, if it was before midnight or after midnight, I'm only asking whether they happened on

24 that day. But that sounds like it --

25 A Okay.
 162

1 Q Great.

2 So, during those conversations, do you recall what specific messages you thought

3 were important for President Trump to convey in his statement?

4 A I think echoing in a longer format than Twitter and social media, generally

5 speaking, allows, for him to speak directly to the American people to condemn the

6 violence and those engaged in unlawful acts, to praise law enforcement for their heroic

7 efforts, and to affirm his commitment to a peaceful transfer of power.

8 Q Okay. Why did you think that a longer format was important in comparison

9 to the statements that had been released throughout the day on the 6th?

10 A Well, the violence had stopped, and so the 7th was a day of reflection for the

11 Nation, and it was an opportunity to reinforce, outside of the heat of the moment, the

12 same principles and themes.

13 Q Understood.

14 You mentioned that there were some discussions about the possibility of a video

15 statement on the 7th, during the course of that day.

16 At the point when you and Mr. Kushner were talking about those messages, was it

17 your understanding that a message was already going to move forward on the 7th?

18 A I believe that was the goal. Oftentimes speechwriting would start to draft

19 remarks and solicit feedback prior to something definitively occurring, to begin to

20 prepare. So that, until remarks are done and made public, I wouldn't say I knew with

21 certainty that would happen, but we thought it was important to have something

22 prepared for the President to review.

23 Q So is it correct to say that it wasn't definitively decided that a statement

24 would be made on the 7th, at least that evening?

25 A I think --1 guess that's a fair thing to say. I think, until the statement's
 163

1 made, you don't know what events could prevent that from happening.

2 Q And do you know when it was decided, other than the moment that the

3 statement on the 7th was released?

4 A Well, I think the remarks were reviewed by the President the following day,

5 and a time was allotted to film. So, presumably, while he was reviewing and editing and

6 the videographers and team were setting up, I would say it's safe to assume that at that

7 point it was going to happen.

8 Q That makes sense. Understood.

9 Before I move off the evening of the 6th or the early morning of the 7th, did you

10 and Mr. Kushner discuss any other, you know, actions that might be necessary in the days

11 following January 6th, other than the video statement?

12 A Not that I recall.

13 Q Okay. So your main focus, at that point in time, was on the statement that

14 was to be released the next day.

15 A Correct.

16 Q All right.

17 So did you go into the White House on January 7th?

18 A I did.

19 Q And did you speak with President Trump at any point during that day?

20 A I did.

21 Q When was the first time that you recall speaking with him?

22 A I don't remember.

23 Q Do you remember what you discussed?

24 A I remember our first conversation -- I don't recall what time it was -- relating

25 to the remarks that he was going to give.

 164

1 Q And what about the remarks did you discuss with him?

2 A It was a group conversation. Speechwriting was there; a couple other

3 people was there. So it was more him providing feedback to the team and us being, sort

4 of, present for that process, which was pretty typical for him, in that he would receive a

5 first draft of a concept and he would make sure the phrasing suited him and the words

6 reflected the message he sought to communicate.

7 Q Do you remember any of the feedback that he provided during that

8 discussion?

9 A I remember that generally he thought the remarks were good.

10 Q Do you remember anything else he said about them?

11 A No.

12 Q Any words or phrases that he thought were important to include or that he

13 didn't want to say?

14 A No.

15 Q Okay.

16 You mentioned that the speechwriting team was there. Do you know who

17 prepared the remarks that he ultimately delivered?

18 A I don't.

19 Q Okay. And other than the speechwriting team and you, do you know

20 who --

21 A I should probably clarify, when I say "speechwriting team," a member of the

22 team, potentially more than one, but there would've been a member of the team

23 reviewing the remarks with him. I'm not sure how many people were there.

24 Q And do you know if anyone else provided input onto what should go in the

25 remarks, either during that meeting or otherwise?

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1 A I know my husband also provided input and was present, but no.

2 Q Okay.

3 Did you convey to President Trump what messages you thought were important

4 during that conversation?

5 A I think what we collectively felt was important was reflected in the draft that

6 he was reviewing, so it would've been redundant. So I don't recall specifically doing

7 that. I think we -- I think that was obvious in the context of the speech.

8 Q Do you remember Mr. Kushner or anyone else providing input on what, you

9 know, message was important in that discussion or otherwise during the day?

10 A I don't.

11 Q All right.

12 I think it makes sense to pull up exhibit 14 for you, Ms. Trump.

13 And while we're pulling it up, I'll represent that this is a hard-copy document that

14 appears to be remarks titled "Remarks on National Healing." And then there are a

15 number of revisions to the text that are made in marker, it looks like.

16 Do you recognize what this is?

17 A It looks like a copy of a draft of the remarks for that day.

18 Q Okay. And, as you can see, throughout the document there are lines

19 crossed out, there are some words added in. Do you recognize the handwriting?

20 A It looks like my father's handwriting.

21 Q Okay. And outside the context of these remarks specifically, is this

22 consistent with his practice whenever he edited remarks, to sort of have a hard copy and

23 then work through them, you know, with a marker, adding and removing things?

24 A Yes.

25 Q All right.
 166

1 So I want to direct your attention to a few of the lines specifically. And I know

2 they're hard to read, so I will read them for you.

3 The first one that's crossed out substantively is in the third paragraph, and it

4 reads, "I am directing the Department of Justice to ensure all lawbreakers are prosecuted

5 to the fullest extent of the law. We must send a clear message -- not with mercy but

6 with JUSTICE. Legal consequences must be swift and firm."

7 Do you recall any discussions about whether or not to include that sentence in the

8 remarks --

9 A No.

10 Q -- or that sentiment in the remarks?

11 A No.

12 Q Did President Trump ever say anything about whether he thought something

13 like that should or should not be included?

14 A Not that I recall.

15 Q Do you have any idea why he wouldn't have wanted to include that

16 sentiment in the remarks?

17 A No.

18 Q So the next revision is in the next paragraph. And it looks like crossed out

19 is the sentence, "I want to be very clear: You do not represent me. You do not

20 represent our movement."

21 Do you recall any discussions about whether or not to include that line or that

22 sentiment?

23 A No.

24 Q Do you have any idea why President Trump would or would not have wanted

25 to include a sentiment like that in the remarks?

 167

1 A It was quite common for him to take remarks and make the wording sound

2 more his own. Like, he says "will pay" here instead of "belong in jail." Like, it was very

3 common for him to do that. But I don't know specific to that, no.
 168

2 [3:48 p.m.]

3 BY

4 Q Okay. Further down -- this isn't really a revision, but in the fourth or fifth

5 paragraph it contains the line, "But THIS election is now OVER. Congress has certified

6 the results. A new Administration will be inaugurated on January 20th. My focus now

7 turns to ensuring a smooth, orderly and seamless transition of power."

8 Did you have any role in ensuring that that sentiment was included in the

9 remarks?

10 A I think we collectively thought that was an important sentiment in response

11 to media speculation following January 6th.

12 Q And did President Trump have any position on including those remarks?

13 A Actually, could you scroll down, because I can't see the text that you're

14 referencing. I could hear --

15 Q Yeah. I think it should be visible on the screen. It's -- you can kind of see

16 it's -- there is like a set of additions that he included, a mark he crossed out. It's the

17 paragraph right above that.

18 A Oh, gotcha. Okay.

19 Q It starts out, "But this election is now over."

20 A I see. I see it now. Sorry. I thought it was -- you said it was written in.

21 I misunderstood.

22 And what was the question?

23 Q So the question was whether President Trump expressed any views about

24 including that kind of language in the remarks.

25 A I believe he said that, he spoke those words, or something very similar.

 169

1 Q You mean he spoke those words in the video statement?

2 A I believe so, or they were communicated in here. I don't see it crossed out.

3 Q Okay. So in the discussion at -- I believe you just said something to the

4 effect that we collectively felt that this was an important sentiment to include in the

5 remarks given the media speculation about peaceful transition of power.

6 During that discussion, did President Trump say anything, indicate how he felt

7 about it one way or the other?

8 A Well, he was part of the "we." I think he agreed that it was important to

9 include that sentiment.

10 Q Did he say that?

11 A That was just my general understanding of the purpose of these remarks

12 that I articulated earlier.

13 Q And why was that your understanding?

14 L i k e - s a i d , I'm asking for how you came to the understanding that it

15 was his belief that this was important to include.

16 A Well, he went on to articulate that sentiment, and he wouldn't do so if he

17 didn't think it was important, especially in the aftermath of January 6th.

18 Q Okay. So other than agreeing to deliver the statement and uttering the

19 words in the statement, can you recall any discussions that you had or any statements he

20 made to you where he indicated that he agreed with that sentiment?

21 A Not specifically, no.

22 Q What about generally?

23 A I believe I've already testified that I -- my understanding. I don't specifically

24 know why I felt that way. But I think my feelings were validated by the fact that he

25 ultimately -- he ultimately delivered a speech in some format that expressed many of

 170

1 these same sentiments that we collectively thought were important.

2 Q Understood.

3 Do you ever recall him being resistant at any time to committing to a peaceful

4 transition of power?

5 A No.

6 Q Do you recall any other discussions about an orderly transition at any point

7 after January 6th involving him?

8 A We were all in the process of transitioning, and I testified earlier that, on

9 January 6th, I was in a meeting about it. So I think that was our collective expectation.

10 Q Okay.

11 A Including his. That was what we were operating under.

12 Q All right. I want to move on to another discussion that we've heard about

13 that's been publicly reported.

14 Do you recall, after January 6th but before the end of the administration, speaking

15 in your office with General Kellogg about the events at the Capitol?

16 A No. I recall speaking with General Kellogg about the relationship between

17 the President and Vice President.

18 Q And tell me about that conversation.

19 A I think we both felt that it would be good for them to heal that relationship

20 that had been very strong between them.

21 Q And what made you feel that the relationship needed to be healed?

22 A It was being reported, and I believe General Kellogg may have affirmed, that

23 they had not spoken in a number of days.

24 Q Understood.

25 So I'm going to read through some things that we've heard were discussed in that
 171

1 conversation, and I'm just going to ask you if you recall them.

2 So General Kellogg reportedly said something to you along the lines of, "I believe

3 in the President of the United States, am a deep believer. I always have been.

4 support Donald J. Trump as a loyalist. I take him for the good and bad. I have made

5 that decision."

6 Do you recall him expressing sentiments to that effect?

7 A No. I know that he cares deeply about the President and the country, but

8 phrased like that conversation, no.

9 Q Okay. It's also been reported that General Kellogg said to you, quote, "I

10 just wish the calmer heads had prevailed. There were some voices that I wish weren't in

11 the room."

12 Do you remember him expressing any sentiment like that to you?

13 A It's possible. But, no, I don't recall him expressing that.

14 Q Is that a sentiment that you shared? Did you wish that calmer heads had

15 prevailed in the room?

16 A I testified earlier that I hadn't been privy to conversations prior to my

17 entering, and there were -- tended to be more intimate groups of people.

18 So I do think, on that day, there were a lot of people milling around in some form

19 of proximity to the President, some further away at various areas of the West Wing and

20 some closer.

21 But I don't know how to interpret his words when he talks about calmer heads.

22 don't know who he's referencing.

23 Q Well, let's just look at it from your perspective, I suppose. In your

24 experience in your interactions with the President on the 6th were there voices in the

25 room that you wished weren't there, that you felt were unproductive?
 172

1 A No.

2 Q And at any point after the 6th did you ever learn of any voices in the room

3 that you felt might be unproductive?

4 A I'm not sure how to answer that question, because there were

5 not -- everyone was aligned in their sentiment in every meeting that I was in. So I don't

6 know who these voices are. I'm sure they were out there, but I wasn't privy to those

7 conversations or party to them.

8 Q Okay. It's also been reported that you replied to General Kellogg and said,

9 quote, "You know he's a very stubborn person."

10 Do you recall expressing anything like that to General Kellogg?

11 A I don't.

12 Q Do you think of your father as being a stubborn person?

13 A He can be stubborn, yes.

14 Q And do you think he was stubborn at any point on the day of the 6th?

15 A That's not how I would characterize it, so no. If I did say that to

16 General Kellogg, I don't think it would have related -- that's not how I would characterize

17 those events. They're too serious to be sort of dismissed like that.

18 Q Understood.

19 Finally, it's been reported that General Kellogg replied to you, I suppose referring

20 to stubbornness, "Runs in the family," which I take it is a reference to you, Ms. Trump.

21 Do you think of yourself as being stubborn sometimes?

22 A Not overly. I'm -- I can be. I can be stubborn. But I wouldn't

23 characterize myself as that. I think I'm appropriately stubborn.

24 [Laughter.]

25 Q I think that's understandable. I think many of us would say that we're

 173

1 appropriately stubborn.

2 A This conversation would be in the context of the relationship between two

3 men, Mike Pence and the President. It sounds more the use of language and even sort

4 of the teasing remark he recalls seems like it would have been more appropriate in the

5 context of that rather than the circumstances of January 6th.

6 Q And did you feel like President Trump was being stubborn in any way with

7 respect to his relationship with Vice President Pence?

8 A That wasn't my word, so I don't know I was thinking about it like that.

9 Q Okay. So, since you mentioned it, you mentioned that you and

10 General Kellogg both felt that President Trump and Vice President Pence needed to heal

11 their relationship.

12 Do you know when they spoke for the first time after the events at the Capitol?

13 A It was a couple of days later. I can't recall the duration, but it was a few

14 days later.

15 Q And did you have any role in making that conversation happen?

16 A Yes.

17 Q What was that role?

18 A I spoke with both the President and Vice President independently, urging

19 them to reconnect with one another privately and try to heal their relationship.

20 Q Okay. And this, I take it, was after your conversation with General Kellogg?

21 A It was. I don't know that one catalyzed the other, but it was -- it probably

22 would have been after, yes.

23 Q All right. So you mentioned that you spoke with both President Trump and

24 Vice President Pence. Tell me a little bit more about that. What order did you speak

25 with them in?

 174

1 A I believe I spoke to the President first and asked him if he'd be willing to

2 speak to the Vice President, and then spoke to the Vice -- and he said yes -- and spoke to

3 the Vice President and urged him -- asked him if he'd be willing to meet with the

4 President, just the two of them, directly to speak.

5 They were both serving the country together and had had a very, very strong and

6 positive relationship for 4 years. I care about them both very much, and I

7 communicated that to them.

8 Q Okay. So I just want to dig in very quickly into both of these conversations.

9 So the first one with President Trump, were you alone for that conversation, or

10 were other people there?

11 A I believe I was alone. Mark Meadows may have been present.

12 Q Is there any reason that you felt like it was important to talk with

13 President Trump one on one during a closer setting about this?

14 A I think generally it's often better to do that, just on a human level, when

15 you're talking about relationships between two people.

16 But I'm not sure that I planned that to be the case. It may have just been -- I

17 believe it was just an evening when he happened to -- but I, of course, wouldn't have

18 brought it up in a -- in the middle of a meeting on a separate topic. So I don't recall why

19 he was -- why it was just us and potentially Mark.

20 Q That makes sense.

21 Do you remember -- other than what you have conveyed to us just now -- do you

22 remember what you expressed to him when you went to him?

23 A Really what I just conveyed to you, and the strong relationship that they had

24 had over the past 4, really 5 years, on the campaign prior, and also the importance of

25 them reconciling, at least through the remainder of their time in office.

 175

1 Q And how did he react?

2 A He was open to it. It was actually a rather short conversation. He said,

3 "I'd be happy to meet with him."

4 Q Did he say anything else?

5 A Not that I remember. It was pretty brief. I didn't know if the Vice

6 President -- I had heard that he was in the building, which is, I think, why I brought it up

7 then.

8 So I went to -- when he said that he was happy to have that conversation, I went

9 to see the Vice President. Jared was with me during that part of the conversation.

10 Q So, just to make sure I understand, you more or less went directly from your

11 conversation with President Trump to Vice President Pence to speak with him?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And tell me about that conversation. What did you and Mr. Kushner say to

14 him?

15 A It was a similar conversation. We shared our respect for him, the great

16 work he had done alongside my father for the American people over the past 4 years, our

17 sadness on what he had experienced on January 6th. I had spoken with his daughter in

18 the days prior and expressed a similar sentiment, Charlotte.

19 And he agreed that it was time to sit down with the President one on one and

20 have a conversation, as colleagues, but also as friends.

21 Q What was his demeanor like during that discussion? This was the first time

22 that you spoke with him in person after the events at the Capitol, I take it?

23 A Uh-huh.

24 Q And how was he in that discussion?

25 A Similar to how he always is. Very earnest and steady.

 176

1 Q Okay. So when did President Trump and Vice President Pence speak at,

2 once Vice President Pence agreed to speak with him?

3 A That afternoon.

4 Q Okay.

5 A Within probably an hour. He went over to the Oval Office, and they shut

6 the door, and they had what, by all accounts, was a very positive conversation between

7 the two of them.

8 Q Did you ever hear anything about what was said during that conversation?

9 A No.

10 Q So you just said: By all accounts, it was a very positive discussion. How

11 do you know that?

12 A Because I believe it was public thereafter, and I believe the Vice President's

13 office confirmed exactly that, that it was a very positive conversation.

14 That was, I think, everyone's understanding. And, when I say everyone, I, you

15 know, I don't want to speak for everyone, but the people in the aftermath of the

16 conversation. His team. My father.

17 Q Okay. Did you ever speak with President Trump about what they discussed

18 during that conversation?

19 A No.

20 Q Okay. So I just have a couple of questions in --

21 Ms. Cheney. I've got a couple of questions on that issue just before you move

22 forward.

23 Oh, please proceed, Ms. Cheney.

24 Ms. Cheney. Thank you.

25 lvanka, did you -- are you aware that recently Vice President Pence said that what
 177

1 your father wanted him to do on January 6th was un-American?

2 Ms. Trump. I don't know exactly what his words were, but I recall him having

3 delivered a speech recently.

4 Ms. Cheney. And so are you -- you're familiar with the fact that what your father

5 was asking that he do would have violated the Constitution?

6 Ms. Trump. I am not familiar with his specific speech. I've moved to Florida

7 and been focused on my family, so I have not been following it as closely. But I'm

8 generally aware that that was a sentiment that he communicated.

9 Ms. Cheney. And were you present -- are you aware that Pat Cipollone advised

10 that what your father was pressuring the Vice President to do was illegal?

11 Ms. Trump. No.

12 Ms. Cheney. Did you ever talk to your father about the fact that what he was

13 advising, pressuring Vice President Pence to do was illegal?

14 Ms. Trump. No.

15 Ms. Cheney. Did you ever hear anyone in the White House Counsel's Office or

16 Mr. Herschmann say that what the President was pressuring the Vice President to do

17 would be illegal?

18 Ms. Trump. No.

19 Ms. Cheney. And are you aware that recently Judge Carter ruled that, in fact, it's

20 more likely than not that the efforts that were underway that your father had undertaken

21 involved violation of Federal statute -- Federal criminal statute?

22 Ms. Trump. I've seen some reporting to that ruling, but I've not reviewed it.

23 Ms. Cheney. So when you were playing the role of peacemaker, did you discuss

24 at all with your father that this was perhaps more than just a, quote, "difference of

25 opinion," but that he had, in fact, been engaged in trying to get the Vice President to do
 178

1 something that would violate his oath of office, the Vice President's oath of office, the

2 law?

3 Ms. Trump. No.

4 Ms. Cheney. Thank you.

5 Before I move on, do any of the other members present have any

6 questions? All right.

7 So, Ms. Trump, just a few final questions on my end. I know Mr. Heaphy has

8 more questions for you after I conclude.

9 Have you had any conversations with President Trump after January 6th and, you

10 know, including past the end of the administration, have you had any conversations with

11 him about what happened on January 6th?

12 Ms. Trump. No. I came to Florida. I'm here in Miami. I was away from my

13 family quite a lot over the 4 years of service, and I've really been prioritizing and focusing

14 on making up for lost time with them. So, no, I haven't been involved in these type of

15 conversations.

16 ~ Do you speak with your father regularly?

17 Ms. Trump. If we could just take a 5-minute break, if that's okay?

18 Sure. Sure.

19 Yep. We'll resume --

20 Ms. Trump. Is that all right?

21 ~ Yep. In about 5 minutes.

22 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

23 Of course.

24 [Recess.]

25 BY
 179

1 Q All right. Just a few more questions for me, Ms. Trump.

2 So what I just asked you before we went off is whether -- how often you speak

3 with your father since the end of the administration.

4 A Depends on the week. But I speak to him a fair amount, and I'll take my

5 kids down periodically to visit with him. It's roughly an hour-and-a-half, two-hour drive,

6 so he's not too far from me here in Miami. So I'll most often try to go down with the

7 kids and family.

8 Q Okay. And I believe you said earlier that you haven't ever discussed what

9 happened on January 6th with him. Is that right?

10 A We -- I mean, obviously, generally there was a lot of discussion that day, in

11 the days that followed. But in the past several months as we've started our life here,

12 no.

13 Q Do you recall anything about those discussions in the days after, any

14 sentiments that he expressed about January 6th?

15 A He's expressed some sentiments publicly, but it hasn't been the focus of our

16 conversations, which are right now really more about family, and now that we're out of

17 politics -- I certainly am -- about more family-related topics.

18 Q Sure. Have you ever heard him express any regrets for what happened on

19 January 6th?

20 A I think he -- what I tried to communicate before was a feeling that he was

21 disappointed and surprised. And I don't know how to be more clear about the fact that I

22 believe and have total conviction that he never could have anticipated something like

23 that having happened. I certainly know that I didn't anticipate any form of violence as

24 something that was even a possibility of transpiring.

25 Q Sure. And did he express to you that he was disappointed and surprised?
 180

1 A He -- I just felt that. I know him really well, so I just -- I felt that, that he

2 was, in the aftermath.

3 Q Okay. But he didn't say anything specifically to that effect. It was, I think

4 as you've said earlier, it was your read on his energy.

5 A On his -- his disposition, yes. And, obviously, he crafted the words that he

6 spoke publicly and, generally speaking, was reaffirming that privately.

7 Q Okay. Has he ever expressed to you any sentiment that he did or did not

8 do the right thing in how he responded on the day of the 6th?

9 A No.

10 Q Okay. Has he ever expressed any sentiment about something that he

11 wished he had done on the day of the 6th?

12 A No.

13 Q Okay. Has he ever said anything to you about the people who were injured

14 or who died that day?

15 A No.

16 Q Okay. Has he ever said anything to you about whether he should or should

17 not continue to talk about the 2020 Presidential election after the events on the 6th?

18 A No.

19 Q Okay.

20 That's all I have, so I will pass it back t o - .

21 ~ Yeah. Thanks,

22 BY

23 Q So just to finish this last line, Ms. Trump, back to the conversation you had

24 with your father about his potential receptivity to meet with Vice President Pence. You

25 know, at that point you had witnessed a heated conversation between them. You had
 181

1 perceived this tweet about Mike Pence is a coward.

2 Given that level of discourse, did you give him any advice or encourage him to

3 take a particular approach to a discussion with the Vice President before it actually

4 occurred?

5 A No. I believed that if they met they would have the conversation that they

6 needed to have. But, no, I didn't suggest a particular way of pursuing the conversation.

7 Q And in the conversation with your -- with the President about his possible

8 meeting with the Vice President, did he express further frustration, you know, was

9 he -- did he express anything that suggested he was still heated or frustrated with the

10 Vice President about what had occurred on January 6th?

11 A No.

12 Q In your conversation with the Vice President was there any discussion about

13 the rhetoric, the heated conversation, or the tweet indicating the President's view that he

14 had been a coward?

15 A No.

16 Q And did you give him any advice or suggestion as to how he should approach

17 the conversation?

18 A Apologies.

19 Q Bless you. No problem.

20 A Could you repeat the question, please?

21 Q Yeah. I'm sorry. I just wondered -- a similar question about the

22 conversation you had encouraging the President to meet with the Vice President.

23 When you talked to the Vice President, was there any discussion of the sort of

24 ongoing animosity, the rhetoric, the heated conversation, or the tweets, anything along

25 those lines?
 182

1 A I don't recall him bringing up the tweets. I think it was a more general

2 sentiment of the strong friendship between the two of them preceding recent days.

3 Q Yeah. And did either of them in those conversations express any

4 reluctance or any sort of lingering animosity that had developed in the prior days?

5 A No, I was really -- I was encouraged that both of them were very willing and

6 open-minded about meeting with one another.

7 Q Okay. All right. The last section of this that I want to ask about has to do

8 with some things that occurred between the election and January 6th. And I'm

9 confident I can finish this by the 6 o'clock deadline that we gave you.

10 I want to take you back in time, if you can -- and these are events that sort of led

11 up to what occurred at the Capitol -- all the way back to election night.

12 Do you remember where you were on the night of the election, November the

13 3rd?

14 A I was at the White House.

15 Q Do you know where specifically over the course of that night you spent your

16 time within the White House?

17 A There was an event that was organized in the residence. So I moved

18 between the residence, a room sort of off the residence, where some family members

19 were. My children were present for a portion of the evening until it started getting

20 later. Periodically, the Map Room on the first floor.

21 Q Were you going back and forth between the Map Room, where I understand

22 a lot of the campaign officials were sort of looking at results and numbers, and the

23 residence, that was more of a social event? Did you sort of go back and forth?

24 A I was, yeah, basically going back and forth.

25 Q Okay. At some point that night, the FOX News called Arizona for then Vice
 183

1 President Biden.

2 Do you remember when that occurred, when FOX made its projection that Biden

3 was going to win Arizona?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Did you see it when it happened on television, or did you hear about it from

6 someone else?

7 A No, I saw it.

8 Q All right. And what was the reaction in the room?

9 First of all, which room were you in? Were you in the residence or were you in

10 the Map Room?

11 A I can't recall.

12 Q What was the reaction in whatever room you were in?

13 A Shock. People were pretty incredulous that the call was made so early.

14 So I think there was a lot of surprise by the call.

15 Q Yeah. Who do you recall being surprised that the call -- that FOX had made

16 the call so early?

17 A I remember members of the campaign team. Other networks had not

18 made the call. I believe they waited many days to come to that viewpoint. So I think

19 there was just a general sense of surprise.

20 Q Yeah. Do you know who told your father about the FOX News call?

21 A No, I don't.

22 Q Do you know whether it was your husband who was sort of dispatched to

23 notify him about the FOX call?

24 A I believe that everyone learned about it on the television as the results were

25 coming in. But I don't know.

 184

1 Q Do you recall any discussion about reaching out to FOX, to Rupert Murdoch

2 or his son, in the wake of their call of the Arizona results for the President -- for Vice

3 President Biden?

4 A No.

5 Q All right. Do you know whether or not your husband actually did reach out

6 to Mr. Murdoch that night?

7 A I believe that he did. I found that out after the fact, though.

8 Q Yeah. What do you know about that conversation, about Mr. Kushner's

9 conversation with Mr. Murdoch?

10 A They spoke with some frequency, so I don't know all that much other than I

11 think he was expressing surprise that it had been called so early.

12 Q And did -- that conversation, was there an ask to retract it or to reverse it or

13 to say it was still too early?

14 A I don't know.

15 Q Okay. Do you remember Mr. Giuliani being present at the White House

16 that night?

17 A I believe so.

18 Q In one or both of those rooms that you described earlier?

19 A I don't know.

20 Q Do you remember noticing whether or not he had been drinking, drinking to

21 excess?

22 A I don't recall that.

23 Q Were you involved, Ms. Trump, in any discussions with the President about

24 what he should say to the Nation that night -- or actually it became early the next

25 morning -- the morning of Wednesday, November 4th?

 185

1 A I was present as those discussions were happening. There were many,

2 many people around at that moment in time offering advice, and he was editing the

3 speech. There were multiple drafts of the speech. I remember there were -- was a lot

4 of -- a lot of input.

5 Q Yeah. Do you remember whether or not people were encouraging him to

6 declare victory at that point?

7 A I don't recall.

8 Q Do you remember anyone in particular giving him any specific advice in the

9 midst of those discussions, "You should say this," or, "You can't say that"?

10 A Oh, I remember everyone having ideas on what he should say, because there

11 were so many people around because of -- it was sort of -- it was the party at the

12 residence. So a lot of people had come, were coming in and out and -- but not specific

13 to what you just asked me, no.

14 Q Did you give him any advice, Ms. Trump, about what you thought he should

15 say to the Nation in his first remarks after the polls had closed on election night?

16 A I'm not sure that I gave him advice that night on what he should say.

17 don't recall anything specific.

18 Q What was your view at the time as to what he should or shouldn't say?

19 A I don't know that I had a firm view as to what he should say in that

20 circumstance. The results were still being counted. It was becoming clear that the

21 race would not be called on election night.

22 So I don't recall having a strong opinion as to what the right political message was

23 for that moment of uncertainty for everyone.

24 Q Yeah. We have been told by a number of people who were involved in

25 those discussions that they advised the President exactly that, that the race would not be
 186

1 called, that it was too early to make any declaration either way about a win or a loss.

2 Do you remember that being discussed and being conveyed to the President?

3 A I don't.

4 Q Do you remember Mr. Stepien, for example, the campaign manager, telling

5 your father, "Hey, it's just too early, you've got to go out there and say it's too early, we

6 don't know exactly how this is going to go ultimately"?

7 A I don't recall.

8 Q Do you remember anybody giving him that advice, that it would be

9 premature to make a declaration of victory or defeat?

10 A I don't remember that.

11 Q Do you remember any discussion, even before election night, that the

12 President intended to declare victory regardless of the results?

13 A No.

14 Q All right. Let me just show you quickly an exhibit. It's No. 15. And this is

15 a news article, and I'm not sure you've seen it, but I think I sent it to you -- your

16 lawyer -- in advance. Maybe you've seen it. But in the event you haven't, Ms. Trump,

17 I'll just put it up on the screen.

18 It's an article from Axios that's written by Jonathan Swan. Mr. Swan actually is

19 one of the people in text communication with Mark Meadows over the course of this

20 period chime.

21 And he says in the very first paragraph -- if you can scroll down,

22 - - - "President Trump has told confidants that he'll declare victory on Tuesday night if

23 it looks like he's 'ahead,' according to three sources familiar with his private comments.

24 That's even if the Electoral College outcome still hinges on large numbers of uncounted

25 votes in key states like Pennsylvania."

 187

1 And this was an article dated November the 1st, several days before election day.

2 Do you recall any discussion in advance of election day that the President should

3 declare victory regardless of whether or not there were large numbers of uncounted

4 votes in key States?

5 A No.

6 Q All right. And, again, that night, do you remember any discussion of

7 something like this, a declaration of victory, despite the fact that the votes were still

8 outstanding?

9 A I don't.

10 Q All right. And do you remember Mr. Giuliani specifically and what advice

11 he gave to the President that night?

12 A No. I only vaguely recall that he was there. I don't remember.

13 Q Okay. One of the books, one of the many books that's been written about

14 this, the Leonnig-Rucker book, indicated that the President was frustrated at the FOX call

15 and generally the numbers he was seeing and said things like, "How did we lose to Joe

16 Biden?" and, "What happened?"

17 Did you ever hear the President on election night say, "How did we lose to Joe

18 Biden?" or ask, "What happened?"

19 A I didn't.

20 Q All right. At the speech, at the end of election night -- and it's actually the

21 next morning, it's 1:46 a.m. -- you indicated that there were people working on a draft

22 of the speech. Do you know who those folks were who were involved in drafting his

23 remarks?

24 A You're talking about on election night?

25 Q Yeah. Yes. It's actually the next morning. But, yes, the speech that he
 188

1 gave, the first speech he gave after the polls closed on election night?

2 A I don't know specifically, no.

3 Q Okay. Were you involved in any way in seeing a draft or shaping it in any

4 way?

5 A I was present and -- for parts of it. But, no, I wasn't involved in drafting it.

6 Q Okay. We have an actual transcript of it. It's exhibit 16. And there are

7 just a couple of small parts that I want to call your attention to, see if you remember how

8 they came about.

9 So this is a transcript of your dad's speech. It was given at 1:46 a.m. on

10 November 4th. It's the first speech after the polls closed.

11 In the very first paragraph, at the end, he says, "A very sad group of people is

12 trying to disenfranchise that group of people and we won't stand for it. We will not

13 stand for it." And he goes on to talk about allegations of -- well, of voter fraud.

14 Do you remember any discussion about the President's statements about people

15 being disenfranchised or not standing for voter fraud?

16 A No.

17 Q Toward the end of the speech, if you go to the next page, he says, "Because

18 you know what happened? They knew they couldn't win, so they said, 'Let's go to

19 court.' And did I predict this, Newt? Did I say this? I've been saying this from the day

20 I heard they were going to send out tens of millions of ballots."

21 A little further down, "This is a fraud on the American public. This is an

22 embarrassment for our country. We were getting ready to win this election. Frankly,

23 we did win this election. We did win this election. So our goal now is to ensure the

24 integrity for the good of this nation. This is a very big moment."

25 Again, he declares victory.

 189

1 Do you remember there being discussion in advance of him uttering these words

2 about whether it was or wasn't the right thing to say, "We did win this election"?

3 A No.

4 Q Do you know who pushed him to say that that night?

5 A I don't.

6 Q Okay. Now, the election was called by the networks just several days later,

7 on Saturday, November 7th.

8 Do you remember where you were when, I believe, all the networks, roughly the

9 same time, when the results came in over the course of that week, that Saturday, the 7th,

10 actually declared the projection or that President-elect Biden had won the election? Do

11 you remember where you were when that happened?

12 A I was with my husband, I believe, in New Jersey.

13 Q Okay. And do you know whether or not either of you spoke to the

14 President after the networks made that call?

15 A I don't recall our conversation. I'm sure we definitely spoke after.

16 Q Yeah.

17 A Some point after. But I don't recall the specifics of the conversation. My

18 husband wasn't feeling well, so I was with him.

19 Q Okay. And that, you believe you were in New Jersey at the time. Were

20 you at the President's club in New Jersey?

21 A I believe so, yes.

22 Q Okay. Were you with him? Was he there as well, the President? I know

23 your husband was there.

24 A No. I don't think he was. I think the President was in Washington.

25 Q Okay. Were you a party, Ms. Trump, to any meetings or any discussions
 190

1 with the campaign staff looking at the data, looking at the numbers in particular States,

2 and trying to analyze what had happened with respect to the results?

3 A I wasn't involved in that. I don't believe I was ever a party to any of those

4 conversations.

5 Q All right. Do you remember ever hearing from your husband, for example,

6 or others, in terms of sort of a postmortem or an assessment as to where the votes had

7 come in or where they had not come in after the networks had made the call?

8 A I think there was sort of a national dialogue about the votes coming in and

9 what was happening in various States and process, but not specifically with the campaign,

10 no.

11 Q Yeah. Are you -- were you familiar with the meeting that your husband had

12 with the President and the campaign's pollster, with both Bill Stepien, with Jason Miller,

13 with Justin Clark, and with Oz, the President's pollster, in which they went over the

14 numbers and sort of gave him an analysis of where the votes had or had not occurred?

15 A I'm not familiar with that meeting.

16 Q All right. Well, do you remember whether your husband or others told you

17 essentially the sum and substance of that analysis?

18 A No. I don't remember that.

19 Q Your husband actually gave us a document which indicates that the

20 assessment was that the votes in urban and suburban areas were radically different than

21 they had been in 2016 and that that was essentially the explanation for the results in

22 seven battleground States.

23 Do you remember hearing discussion of that fact or that assessment in the days

24 following the election?

25 A Not specifically, no.

 191

1 Q Do you remember generally discussion about what changed or what went

2 wrong with respect to the -- where the votes were or were not in 2020 compared to

3 2016?

4 A I think in the aftermath of an election it's pretty common for there to be lots

5 of discussion and lots of opinions on what transpired.

6 Q Yeah.

7 A So, yes, of course. There was a lot of information flowing on that front.

8 But I don't -- I don't -- wasn't privy to those discussions.

9 Q Okay. Did you talk to your father about this, after the networks had called

10 it and the internal campaign folks had done an analysis, about what he should do, what

11 the next step would be for him, the appropriate next step would be for him?

12 A Well, I understood that there was a legal challenge that was underway,

13 potentially several in various States. But I wasn't involved in those challenges and was

14 expecting them to run their course.

15 I returned my focus to the priorities that I was working on. We were very

16 actively involved also, in addition to our existing portfolio of responsibilities, to

17 commutations. We began to discuss transition process, which we were complying with

18 the process laid out by Chris Liddell in -- who was deputy chief of staff.

19 So we -- you know, that that was really sort of a campaign-related and legal

20 contest that I was not engaged in, in my work at the White House.

21 Q All right. Did you ever have any discussions with your father about

22 conceding, about acknowledging President Biden's victory in November or December, like

23 early after the election returns were analyzed and the networks had made the call?

24 A I understood that there were legal challenges that were ongoing, as was

25 their right, and that there were recounts that were ongoing in several States.
 192

1 So that was -- you know, my focus was not on that, nor was I privy to those

2 discussions. But that was my understanding.

3 Q You're exactly right. There were several recounts, there were a lot of cases

4 filed, all of which essentially affirmed President Bide n's victory by early December.

5 Do you remember, after the recounts all were completed, after, I believe, 62

6 lawsuits were filed, none of which resulted in any ruling verifying election fraud, having

7 discussions with your father about, "Okay, now it's time to concede, now it's time to

8 move forward"?

9 A I don't recall.

10 Q At any point, Ms. Trump, did you have those discussions with him before

11 January 6th, advising him to concede and commit to moving forward and committing to a

12 transfer of power?

13 A It was my understanding we were actively, during the contests, legal

14 challenges, and after them, embarking on a transition process, a formal one organized by

15 the White House, and meeting with incoming members of the Biden administration.

16 So it was my understanding, as a White House, that's what we were preparing for

17 unless one of the legal challenges changed that.

18 Q Yeah. When in your mind, Ms. Trump, did you realize that the

19 administration was coming to an end between election night and January 20th? In the

20 course of the legal challenges, in the course of the recounts, in the course of all of the

21 activity, when did you personally, in your own head, realize that it was coming to an end?

22 A I don't know specifically. It took several days for the election to be called,

23 and then there was a series of these challenges.

24 I was preparing for it once the election was called. I have the responsibility for

25 my family, and I was contemplating moving with them and next steps. So I -- you know,
 193

1 for me, I was -- I was planning that.

2 Q Yeah. I appreciate -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.

3 A No. I was finished.

4 Q Okay. I appreciate that you had a lot to finish with respect to the

5 important work you were doing and a lot of personal transition.

6 I'm just trying to get a sense of when that started. Did you start planning to

7 move and start, "Hey, we've got a limited time left right after the election in November,"

8 or did you not really start that process until after January 6th, or when in between?

9 A We started prior to January 6th, but when specifically, I don't know.

10 Probably at the conclusion of the legal challenges. But I would have been planning

11 before, as that is prudent.

12 Q December 14th was the day on which the electoral college met, when these

13 electors around the country met and cast the electoral votes consistent with the popular

14 vote in each State, and it was, obviously, a public proceeding or a series of proceedings,

15 that President Biden had obtained the requisite number of electors.

16 Was that an important day for you? Did that affect sort of your planning or your

17 realization as to whether or not there was going to be an end of this administration?

18 A I think so. I think it was my sentiment probably prior as well. But, like I

19 said, I was moving forward subject to being told otherwise as a result of successful legal

20 challenges that I was not involved in.

21 Q Yeah. All the legal challenges, I think, but for one, had been resolved by

22 December 14th, and all the recounts were finished.

23 Do you remember having any discussion with your father about the significance of

24 December 14th and the fact that those challenges and those recounts had run their

25 course?
 194

1 A No.

2 Q Did you ever have a discussion with him in which you encouraged him,

3 Ms. Trump, to accept those results, start talking about the record of accomplishment, and

4 prepare for life post-administration?

5 A I think, as we had discussed earlier in the day, I often had discussions with

6 him about talking about the great accomplishments of his administration and the great

7 progress that the country had experienced under his Presidency. So that was a

8 continuous conversation that we would have. He knew my viewpoints on that.

9 Q Yeah. In the Woodward and Costa book "Peril" they report that you and

10 Mr. Kushner used a light touch with Trump, with Kushner telling aides that it was Trump's

11 Presidency and he alone should be the one to decide how to finish it.

12 Is that a sort of fair characterization of yours and your husband's views about your

13 approach to the President in this post-election period, a light touch, that he alone should

14 decide what to say and how to finish it?

15 A I have not characterized it as such, nor do I know who would have told that

16 to the individuals writing this book.

17 And I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment. I think I'm forthright. But I

18 also respect the fact that he is President of the United States, he was President of the

19 United States, and it's his Presidency.

20 I am one opinion. I have a strong opinion sometimes, and I share that opinion

21 with him, and he respects my honesty. But it's his Presidency.

22 Q Yeah. I've heard he can --

23 A Ultimately it's his decision.

24 Q Yep. I've heard he can be stubborn apparently.

25 A That's what somebody has said.

 195

1 Q That's a joke. Sorry.

2 Now, we understand from the campaign leadership -- Mr. Stepien,

3 Mr. Miller -- that Rudy Giuliani sort of came in with other lawyers and pursued a legal

4 strategy, that soon after the networks made the call, that they essentially took over

5 campaign-related efforts and a legal strategy.

6 Is that consistent with your understanding, that Stepien and the folks that were on

7 the campaign stepped back and that Giuliani and the lawyers stepped forward?

8 A Generally speaking. There was a legal challenge ongoing that the lawyers

9 were involved in and many of us at the White House were not.

10 Q Yeah.

11 A It was --

12 Q Did you have a -- I'm sorry.

 196

2 [4:50 p.m.]

3 Ms. Trump. It was independent from our work there.

4 BY

5 Q Yes. Did you have a view, though, as to whether that was a good idea,

6 whether that was the right decision, to have Mr. Giuliani and his team take over a legal

7 strategy at that point?

8 A I have no background whatsoever in election law or in law generally, and so I

9 didn't have -- I didn't offer legal advice on this topic, strategy or otherwise.

10 Q Did you talk to your father, the President, about Mr. Giulian i's legal

11 challenges, him assuming control of the campaign apparatus?

12 A No.

13 Q Over the succeeding days and weeks, did you see Mr. Giuliani in press

14 conferences or in hearings around the country, in State legislatures, start to advocate for

15 things on behalf of the campaign?

16 A I did periodically. But I was not -- I was not involved in it or following it

17 closely, so --

18 Q Yeah.

19 A It was -- as I mentioned before, it was a very busy time for all of us in the

20 White House, so that's where my focus was.

21 Q Did you develop an opinion, though, about whether or not Mr. Giuliani was

22 effective or, when you saw him make those appearances, that they were persuasive or

23 were working?

24 A I wasn't watching the appearances. I was working. So I didn't develop a

25 strong opinion that I recall either way. There were challenges happening that were
 197

1 being headed by various people in various States that were either going to bear fruit or

2 not.

3 Q He gave a press conference at a landscaping company in Philadelphia, right?

4 Do you remember seeing that, having an opinion as to whether that was persuasive?

5 A I did not watch that. I remember memes about that, but I did not watch it

6 and I did not see it.

7 Q Did you ever develop an opinion in what you learned about it thereafter that

8 it was or wasn't working or effective?

9 A No.

10 Q How about at the RNC? He gave a press conference along with Sidney

11 Powell on November the 19th at the Republican National Committee. Do you

12 remember seeing that and forming any opinion as to whether that was effective or

13 persuasive?

14 A No.

15 Q Did you ever talk to the President about whether or not Mr. Giuliani was an

16 effective spokesperson or advocate for him and his interests in the campaign?

17 A I did not.

18 Q At any time did you have such discussions with him?

19 A I don't recall having had that discussion.

20 Q All right.

21 Do you remember any discussion about, separate from a litigation strategy, a

22 strategy of reaching out to State legislators in an attempt to get State legislators to issue

23 alternate slates of electors or to take any action with respect to the election?

24 A No.

25 Q Were you familiar with any discussion about encouraging State

 198

1 legislatures -- legislators to take any actions?

2 A I don't recall that.

3 Q So let me show you an email. This is exhibit 17. This was one sent to you

4 directly from Newt Gingrich. It looks like it's dated very early, November the 10th, the

5 week after the election, exactly a week after the election. It's from thirdwave2, which I

6 can represent was Mr. Gingrich's email address. And it's to Mr. Kushner, to you, to

7 Hope Hicks, to Kayleigh McEnany, to Brooke Rollins, and to Pat Cipollone.

8 Do you remember receiving this email?

9 A I don't.

10 Q Okay.

11 In the email, Mr. Gingrich -- it's actually titled "Two Paths to victory newt." And

12 he says in the very first full paragraph, "GOP legislatures elect to not send in electors from

13 an unreliable and rigged system before all questionable conduct has been answered."

14 Do you remember -- again, you said you don't remember this email, but do you

15 remember any general discussion about that possibility, GOP legislatures electing not to

16 send electors from an unreliable and rigged system?

17 A I don't remember this email.

18 Q Beyond the email, do you remember the issue, the issue of encouraging

19 State legislators to take action?

20 A I remember public dialogue around the issue, but I wasn't involved in any

21 discussions that can shed light on that.

22 Q Okay. And I understand that you weren't involved personally in

23 discussions. I'm just wondering if you were aware generally of this as a strategy or of

24 who was involved in pursuing contact with State legislators.

25 A No.
 199

1 Q Mr. Gingrich -- do you know whether or not he had any official or unofficial

2 role advising the President or others about post-election activity?

3 A I don't know.

4 Q Did you ever have any discussions with him during this period of time -- Mr.

5 Gingrich?

6 A I don't believe so.

7 Q Did you ever talk to the President about Mr. Gingrich and his advice?

8 A Not that I recall.

9 Q All right.

10 And we've developed information that just a day after this, November the 11th,

11 there was a meeting between the President, the Vice President, Bill Stepien, Jason Miller,

12 Justin Clark, and Eric Herschmann regarding State legislatures, regarding this effort to

13 make outreach to State legislatures.

14 Are you familiar with that particular meeting or any discussions with those people

15 about State legislatures?

16 A I'm not.

17 Q Do you recall any discussion about inviting State legislators to Washington to

18 meet with the President or others on his behalf?

19 A I don't.

20 Q Do you remember any discussion about providing State legislators with

21 evidence of election fraud that they would use in the kind of activity that Mr. Gingrich

22 recommends?

23 A No.

24 Q All right.

25 Do you remember any discussions about actual legislative hearings that Mr.
 200

1 Giuliani or his team participated in or testified in with respect to allegations of election

2 fraud?

3 A I remember that there were -- him and his team, however you define that,

4 were publicly traveling around the country and making periodic public appearances. But

5 I was not involved in that and was not tracking it closely.

6 Q Yeah. Did you ever talk to the President about these efforts, about

7 whether they were or were not effective or working, these efforts with respect to the

8 State legislatures?

9 A I did not.

10 Q Do you know whether or not the President was getting any advice from

11 Steve Bannon about what he should or shouldn't do after the election?

12 A I don't know.

13 Q Did he ever mention to you that he had talked to Mr. Bannon?

14 A No.

15 Q All right.

16 We've developed some information that Mr. Bannon's assistant contacted Johnny

17 McEntee, indicating that "KG wants Steve and POTUS to talk. Steve has three next steps

18 that he can take to Stop the Steal. Says he needs to meet with Peter Navarro to go over

19 the numbers."

20 Again, do you have any recollection about a strategy that Mr. Bannon was

21 recommending involving Peter Navarro and with respect to the election?

22 A No. I had no contact with Mr. Bannon.

23 Q All right. And do you know if the "KG" refers to Kimberly Guilfoyle, her

24 somehow facilitating a conversation between Mr. Bannon and President Trump?

25 A I don't know.
 201

1 Q Okay. Did you ever talk to her about what should happen with respect to

2 the election after it occurred?

3 A Not that I remember, no.

4 Q Okay.

5 All right. On January 2nd of 2021, there's a very publicly reported phone call that

6 the President has with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger.

7 Before the call occurred, did you have any idea that the President intended to

8 speak to Secretary Raffensperger or was trying to set that up?

9 A No.

10 Q After the call took place, it was very soon thereafter released publicly. Did

11 you have any knowledge of it until it was released publicly, a recording of it was released

12 publicly?

13 A No.

14 Q Did you ever speak to the President about that telephone conversation he

15 had with Secretary Raffensperger?

16 A I didn't.

17 Q At any time, either right then or in the weeks and months since then?

18 A No.

19 Q All right.

20 In the phone call, it's reported -- or, the transcript indicates -- or, the recording

21 indicates he encourages Secretary Raffensperger to "find 11,000 votes."

22 Again, did you ever ask him about that or talk to him about what he meant by that

23 statement?

24 A I remember him issuing public statements as to that conversation and his

25 views on that conversation, but I never spoke to him about it directly.

 202

1 Q Yeah. I see. I appreciate that there were public statements. I'm

2 wondering if you had any private conversations with him about that call.

3 A Not that I recall.

4 Q Okay.

5 Back to Mr. Navarro, do you know whether or not he was involved in

6 investigations of allegations of voting fraud or had any specific role with respect to

7 election issues after the election occurred?

8 A I don't know.

9 Q Did you ever talk to him about election-related issues?

10 A Not that I remember.

11 Q What was your general impression of Mr. Navarro and his credibility within

12 the White House?

13 A We hadn't worked too closely together. On a few issues relating to job

14 training and some vocational education elements and policies, he had a perspective and

15 opinion. And I knew him, of course, from the campaign, the previous campaign, and

16 then during our time in the White House. But I didn't work with him closely on any of

17 these things. And I didn't know of his involvement, if he had one, in post-November 3rd.

18 Q Yeah. Do you have any idea why a person with a background in trade or in

19 job creation was working on election-related issues in those days after the election?

20 A Don't know.

21 Q Okay.

22 Do you remember any discussion in the post-election period about the reliability

23 of Dominion voting machines or Dominion Voting Systems, equipment that that company

24 manufactured and were used in various States?

25 A Only public dialogue on this front. I had no personal knowledge beyond

 203

1 that.

2 Q All right. Were you privy to any conversations about whether or not

3 Dominion Voting Systems machines were reliable or unreliable?

4 A I was not.

5 Q Okay.

6 Do you remember Sidney Powell -- or hearing reports that Sidney Powell talked a

7 lot about Dominion Voting Systems somehow being controlled by Venezuela or foreign

8 interests, making claims to that effect?

9 A I saw that publicly reported, but I don't believe I've ever met Sidney Powell.

10 Q Okay.

11 It's been reported in the Leonnig and Rucker book that you and Mr. Kushner

12 warned your father about the fact that he might be going too far in attacking the integrity

13 of the vote with respect to Dominion Voting Systems.

14 Do you recall warning him that some of these claims were going too far?

15 A I don't recall any conversations specific to Dominion.

16 Q How about more generally? Did you ever warn the President that some of

17 the claims that either he was making or others were making on his behalf were going too

18 far or were unreliable?

19 A I don't recall that. I just -- it wasn't -- I wasn't tracking all of the different

20 claims, and I wasn't present at the meetings where the facts were being presented and

21 adjudicated.

22 Q Yeah. I understand that you had no direct involvement in the strategy and

23 in the campaign-related decisions. I'm just wondering if you had an impression that you

24 conveyed to the President that some of the rhetoric was baseless or didn't have

25 foundation and might actually be doing harm or things that shouldn't be said. Did you
 204

1 ever convey that to him at all?

2 A I don't know. I don't remember having that conversation.

3 Q Did you ever make that decision yourself or have that opinion yourself over

4 the course of this post-election period?

5 A I remember, real-time, in the aftermath, there was a tremendous amount of

6 confusion. There were several days before the election was called by the networks.

7 There were a lot of different claims being made by both parties as it pertained to

8 the election. Some were -- I recall having been publicly debunked; others, maybe not

9 so, or at least that I just wasn't aware of.

10 So I think there was just a lot of -- there was a lot of conversation happening in the

11 days and weeks that followed the election that was being -- that were being adjudicated

12 real-time.

13 Q Yeah, you're exactly right. There were. I'm just wondering whether or

14 not at any point during that post-election period you, yourself, Ms. Trump, believed that

15 certain claims were baseless or went too far or did damage to the cause of your father's

16 campaign.

17 A I don't know which specific claims I may have felt that way about. I just -- I

18 don't remember. There were a lot of claims being made.

19 Q Yeah. Well, it sounds like, from that answer -- and I don't want to put

20 words in your mouth -- that you did have those concerns about some claims, that perhaps

21 they were baseless or that they were doing damage. Is that right?

22 A Oh, I'm sure there were claims that were exactly that. But I -- individual

23 claims don't equate to the top-line reality, which was a broader legal challenge being

24 operated by people who I was not involved in and not privy to.

25 So, you know, individual claims you'd see on the news or something to that effect.
 205

1 Every day, claims were being made, either anecdotally or otherwise. But I was not

2 involved in the robust discussion of any of them.

3 Q Yes.

4 Did you ever caution anyone, whether it was President Trump or others, not to

5 make certain claims because they had been debunked or rebutted -- not to continue to

6 make those claims?

7 A I don't recall that, no.

8 - Ms. Cheney, I see you've come on camera. Do you have followup

9 on this?

10 Ms. Cheney. Thanks, ■. I do.

11 lvanka, do you believe the President is obligated to abide by the rulings of the

12 courts?

13 Ms. Trump. I do.

14 Ms. Cheney. And are you aware that Mr. Giuliani has had his law license

15 suspended specifically for claims and allegations that he made in connection with or as

16 part of his work for the Trump campaign?

17 Ms. Trump. I've heard that.

18 Ms. Cheney. Do you believe that the violence on January 6th was justified?

19 Ms. Trump. No. I don't think violence is ever justified.

20 Ms. Cheney. Do you agree with your father when he says that the insurrection

21 was on November 3rd?

22 Ms. Trump. I'm not going to interpret my father's words and what he says.

23 Those aren't my words, and I've never articulated that sentiment.

24 Ms. Cheney. So you don't believe that November 3rd was an insurrection?

25 Ms. Trump. That's a very specific term that I have never used.
 206

1 Ms. Cheney. Do you believe the election was stolen?

2 Ms. Trump. I think that that means, especially today, 2 years later, a lot of

3 different things to people across this country.

4 I think that COVID created an unprecedented opportunity to really undermine a

5 lot of really -- help people lose a lot of trust in some of our systems because of the

6 unprecedented nature in which voting was happening across the country and created a

7 lack of confidence.

8 But, you know, I'm here cooperating as a fact witness as it pertains to January 6th,

9 and I'm trying to give my best recollection and be as thorough as I possibly can as to the

10 specifics of what I have knowledge of and trying to be as helpful as I can to your inquiry.

11 Ms. Cheney. Well, I appreciate that.

12 And I think one of the real challenges that our country faces -- and you are

13 certainly right that COVID has been a real tragedy for millions of people -- but that one of

14 the real challenges that our country faces is ensuring that we all embrace the rule of law.

15 And it doesn't really matter how you feel about an election or how you feel about an

16 outcome once the courts have ruled.

17 And, as I know, as-mentioned, 60 out of 61 of the courts that heard

18 these election claims ruled against the President, including a number of judges the

19 President appointed.

20 In retrospect, do you believe that the President was wrong to summon people to

21 Washington for January 6th?

22 Ms. Trump. I don't know that he did summon. I don't know what his

23 involvement was in organizing the event. I obviously know that he spoke at it, but I'm

24 not sure if he had any role in -- you use the word "summonsing" -- summonsing people to

25 Washington or organizing it. So I don't know if I can concur with that deliberation.
 207

1 I do believe in my heart that he had no knowledge or belief that violence would

2 occur that day. It was not something that was ever discussed. And I believe that fully.

3 And that certainly was true for me, which I can speak to directly. But I really -- I believe

4 that it was, in his mind, a rally like so many others he had attended and spoken at.

5 Ms. Cheney. So are you aware that on December 19th President Trump

6 tweeted, quote, "Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, be wild"?

7 Ms. Trump. No, I don't recall that tweet.

8 Ms. Cheney. And, then, you may know that, shortly after he tweeted that, the

9 extent to which groups that are violent on social media, individuals who participated in

10 the violence on January 6th, began retweeting that, began telling themselves, sending

11 messages out saying -- actually, one said, "Daddy has summoned us to Washington. Be

12 there. Get ready."

13 So are you aware that that particular tweet had a real impact and effect on people

14 who were, in fact, discussing violence on January 6th?

15 Ms. Trump. No, I am not aware of that.

16 Ms. Cheney. Are you aware -- on December 1st, Gabriel Sterling, who's the chief

17 elections officer in Georgia, gave a press conference, you know, unlike any I've ever seen

18 before, in which he said a number of things, including:

19 "Mr. President" -- and he's speaking to then-President Trump -- "it looks like you

20 likely lost the State of Georgia. We're investigating. There's always a possibility.

21 get it; you have the right to go through the courts. What you don't have the ability to

22 do, and you need to step up and say this, is -- stop inspiring people to commit potential

23 acts of violence. Someone is going to get hurt. Someone is going to get shot.

24 Someone is going to get killed. And it's not right. It's not right."

25 Are you aware of that press conference?

 208

1 Ms. Trump. I'm not aware of that press conference. I don't recall that.

2 Ms. Cheney. And, then, in terms of the chronology, a s - mentioned,

3 on December 14th, the electoral college met and cast their votes. Are you aware of

4 that?

5 Ms. Trump. I am, yes.

6 Ms. Cheney. And so, then, on January 4th, you actually traveled with President

7 Trump to a rally in Georgia. Do you recall that?

8 Ms. Trump. I do.

9 Ms. Cheney. And you flew with him on Marine One and then on Air Force One

10 and participated in the rally. And you're actually behind him, in the background, when

11 he says things.

12 So, now, this is January 4th. This is after the phone call that Mr. Heaphy was

13 talking about. This is after the election official in Georgia has pleaded with the President

14 to stop because people will be killed. This is after the electoral college has met.

15 And the President said, "If the liberal Democrats take the Senate and the White

16 House -- and they're not taking this White House. We're going to fight like hell, I will tell

17 you now. If you lose, you lose. You go. And you say, maybe I'll do it again sometime.

18 But when you win in a landslide and they steal it and it's rigged, that's not acceptable.

19 Then you have a country that will be run -- if these two don't win and if we don't take the

20 Presidency, you've got a country that will be run by Schumer, Pelosi, and Biden."

21 So I'm wondering if, you know, on the 4th, after everything we had been through,

22 when you heard him say these things about "fight like hell" and "we're going to take the

23 White House," what you thought about that.

24 Ms. Trump. My understanding, the purpose of that rally was to garner support

25 for two Republicans running for Senate. That was why I attended. I had done an event
 209

1 for them in the weeks prior. I don't believe I spoke that night on January 4th.

2 Ms. Cheney. You did, actually.

3 Ms. Trump. Did I? Did I speak? Maybe just intro- -- maybe just to -- he called

4 me up on stage or something, which he would sometimes do. But I don't believe I had

5 formal -- I'm quite sure I didn't have formal remarks, but if he called me up, I may have

6 said a few words.

7 But I wouldn't have said anything to the effect of what you just relayed. I viewed

8 it as an event for two Senators who were running in that State.

9 Ms. Cheney. Why didn't you intervene? Why didn't you stop him?

10 Ms. Trump. That's a very broad question.

11 Ms. Cheney. Well, I'll narrow it to that day. You know, on January 4th, why

12 didn't you intervene? Why didn't you stop him? Did you think you could sort of float

13 above what was unfolding?

14 Ms. Trump. I wasn't seeking to float above anything. I gave my honest advice.

15 I intervened when I felt like I had the knowledge and was apprised of the conversations

16 and could do so.

17 But he's the President of the United States. I'm his advisor, and I'm one of many

18 advisors. I'm also his daughter.

19 And I think I'm here today because you believe I did intervene in certain

20 capacities. I used my voice when I could.

21 And I think the broadness of that question is difficult to answer.

22 Ms. Cheney. Yeah, no, I under- -- it's -- it is -- it's difficult for many people to

23 understand. And, you know, I --

24 Ms. Trump. Your father, I think, was in politics as well, and he had many advisors

25 around him. And I'm sure you would offer your opinion, and he would accept it
 210

1 occasionally and he would reject it occasionally. But I'm not sure you would feel it

2 appropriate that everyone always expected you to prevail in whatever your viewpoint

3 was over and above your father in any given situation.

4 Ms. Cheney. Well, I appreciate that. I'm quite confident, though, that if my

5 father were engaged in an effort that ignored the rulings of 60 out of 61 courts, an effort

6 to attempt to overturn an election once the electoral college had met and voted,

7 that -- you know, I'm, number one, quite confident he would've never been engaged in

8 anything like that.

9 I also think it's important to recognize that, although the President is your father,

10 your loyalty, your oath is not to him; it's to the Constitution.

11 Ms. Trump. One hundred percent.

12 Ms. Cheney. And so I think that, as we think about what was --

13 [Cross-talk.]

14 Ms. Trump. -- I recognize the fact that I was there serving the people of this

15 country. And I fought like hell to do the best job I could, to do exactly that.

16 Ms. Cheney. And specifically to the Constitution. And I assume you recognize

17 and believe that we are, in fact, a Nation of laws?

18 Ms. Trump. Of course.

19 Ms. Cheney. And that being a Nation of laws means, in fact, that all of us have

20 an obligation to uphold and defend those laws, and the President in particular?

21 Ms. Trump. I agree.

22 Ms. Cheney. And so, when you think about the President's obligations that

23 day -- and I'll ask you the question again -- in retrospect, do you think that he was wrong

24 to summon this mob to Washington?

25 Ms. Trump. Well, you just read me that tweet for the first time. I think it was
 211

1 very common that when he would have rallies he would tell people to attend. Would I

2 have phrased it like that myself? No. But, you know, I'm not going to sit here and

3 interpret his public comments. I think that's for you all to interpret and for him to

4 articulate himself, should you speak to him.

5 Ms. Cheney. Have you -- are you familiar with TheDonald.win?

6 Ms. Trump. No.

7 Ms. Cheney. Did you ever speak to Dan Scavino about what's on

8 TheDonald.win?

9 Ms. Trump. No. I don't know what TheDonald.win is.

10 Ms. Cheney. When you yourself spoke at a rally in Georgia on December 20th,

11 you exhorted the crowd to, quote, "fight for Trump," and that was December 20th.

12 What did you mean by "fight for Trump" on December 20th?

13 Ms. Trump. I don't recall ever telling the crowd -- I don't recall saying anything

14 outside of campaigning for the two Senators who were standing on stage with me who I'd

15 come for. I saw that there were many people in the crowd who were expressing that

16 sentiment that were clearly Trump supporters. But I don't recall ever having

17 referenced -- I'd have to look back at the speech, but I don't recall that.

18 Ms. Cheney. Thank you.

19 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

20 - Thanks, Ms. Cheney.

21 BY
22 Q Ms. Trump, Ms. Cheney's questions, just to sort of summarize, if I can,

23 suggest that there were lots of points over the course of the post-election period when,

24 despite court rulings, despite recounts, despite things being rebutted, the President just

25 kept saying the same thing, kept talking about election fraud, kept citing those very same
 212

1 claims that had been rejected in the courts.

2 And my question -- I'm not asking to get into his head. I'm asking to get into

3 yours, as to why you didn't at some point step in or give him good advice as an advisor, as

4 a family member, about whether or not that was responsible or not or what effect it

5 might have on listeners.

6 A I've already testified extensively today to the fact that I have always tried to

7 offer good advice. And I feel like I did during my time in the White House, to the best of

8 my abilities. And this was no different. So I have said that consistently.

9 Q You have. And I just want to make sure I understand it. It sounds like you

10 don't recall ever giving him that kind of advice: "That's a claim you shouldn't make,"

11 "that might do damage," that kind of --

12 A I wasn't involved in the individual legal contests, so I don't know whether

13 they were things that were legitimate or not, valid or not. Those were private

14 conversations between him and his lawyers that were separate from discussions we were

15 having within the White House. I was focused on transition.

16 Q Yep. I understand, Ms. Trump. I'm just trying to pinpoint whether or not

17 you recall any such conversation -- it sounds like you don't -- in which you ever gave him

18 advice about what he should or shouldn't say in the post-election period.

19 A Well, I told you several times earlier that I would often tell him he should

20 focus on his track record and his accomplishments. And that was consistently my advice

21 to him.

22 Q Yeah.

23 You indicated you weren't involved in and didn't have any awareness of the

24 litigation. And, Ms. Trump, all of that had run its course well before the speech that

25 Ms. Cheney just quoted on January 4th, certainly before January 6th.
 213

1 Were you aware of that fact, the fact that the litigation had universally been

2 unsuccessful and had not resulted in any verified claims of election fraud? Did you learn

3 that when those cases were decided?

4 A I'm not sure when the last case was decided, but I know the President's

5 viewpoint had not changed.

6 Q Uh-huh. And explain more what you mean by that. The President's

7 viewpoint about those claims, despite their rejection in courts, had not changed?

8 A He's quite public about this, even to this day, so --

9 Q Yep.

10 A -- I think his viewpoints you can easily ascertain by reading his public

11 statements. I'd prefer not to attempt to interpret what he's saying publicly.

12 Q Yeah. And I'm not asking you to. I'm asking you whether you ever,

13 yourself, in your head or in conversation with him, ever expressed concern or gave him

14 advice about what he should or shouldn't say in the wake of that consistent record of

15 litigation?

16 A I feel like I've answered that question several times now.

17 Q Yeah. Okay.

18 Do you remember when Attorney General Barr gave a press conference, very early

19 part of December, in which he said, we've looked, the FBI has investigated, and we have

20 not found evidence of systemic election fraud sufficient to undermine the outcome? Do

21 you remember when that occurred, his public statement?

22 A Yes.

23 Q All right. What was your reaction when he said that?

24 A What was my reaction?

25 Q Yes. How did that affect your perspective about the election, when
 214

1 Attorney General Barr made that statement?

2 A It affected my perspective. I respect Attorney General Barr, so I accepted

3 what he was saying.

4 Q Yeah. Okay. And did you ever talk to the President about the fact, hey,

5 the Attorney General and the FBI have looked at this and they say there's no evidence of

6 systemic fraud sufficient to undermine the outcome?

7 A The Attorney General spoke to the President.

8 Q He did.

9 A I was not present in those conversations.

10 Q Did you separately at any time talk to him about that, about the Attorney

11 General's view, and what, if anything, that should -- result that should take with respect

12 to what the President was saying?

13 A I don't recall.

14 Q Do you ever remember talking to the President about seizing voting

15 machines, about whether or not --

16 Mr. Benson. - ? - ?

17 Yes?

18 Mr. Benson. Can we take a 5-minute -- a couple-minute break?

19 - We sure can, yes.

20 Ms. Trump. How are we doing time-wise?

21 - We're good. I'm still confident we can finish by 6 o'clock.

22 Ms. Trump. Okay.

23 Mr. Benson. Can we just take a 2-minute break?

24 - Yeah, of course. Take your time.

25 Mr. Benson. Thank you.

 215

1 Ms. Trump. Thank you.

2 [Recess.]
 216

2 [5:33 p.m.]

3 BY

4 Q Okay. Again, I'm winding down. And I know it's been a long day, and,

5 again, I appreciate your indulgence. We'll just go through a couple of things I want to

6 ask if you have any recollection of.

7 I think I was, when we left off, I was asking you about any efforts to seize voting

8 machines. You have no recollection of any discussion of the possible seizure of voting

9 machines?

10 A No.

11 Q Do you remember whether or not there was any discussion of an executive

12 order that the President might issue? This was on December the 16th.

13 A No.

14 Q Presidential findings to preserve, collect, and analyze national security

15 information relating to the general election. Any discussion of an executive order to

16 that effect?

17 A No.

18 Q Okay. How about the appointment of a special counsel? Do you

19 remember any discussion about whether the President should appoint a lawyer who

20 could investigate allegations of alleged voter fraud?

21 A I don't.

22 Q Okay. There's been a lot of reporting about a meeting that occurred at the

23 White House on December the 18th. This is with General Flynn, Ms. Powell, Mr.

24 Giuliani, Patrick Byrne.

25 Do you remember any -- do you have any recollection of that? And, apparently,
 217

1 it was sort of contentious, a lot of discussion and argument at that meeting.

2 Do you remember that?

3 A No.

4 Q Do you remember reading about it?

5 A I recall, I believe, reading about it. Almost every day there were stories on

6 various meetings taking place.

7 Q All right. Did you ever talk to anyone who was a participant in the meeting

8 about what occurred?

9 A No.

10 Q Mr. Herschmann, for example, is reported to have gotten into a veritable

11 screaming match with Mr. -- with General Flynn in the meeting.

12 Did you ever talk to him or others about what happened in that meeting?

13 A I don't believe he ever told me about that meeting, no.

14 Q All right. Ms. Cheney just asked you a little bit about the tweet from

15 November the -- excuse me -- December the 19th. It's exhibit 21. Let me just show it

16 to you and see if you have any recollection of it. I think you said you didn't know about

17 it or didn't have any involvement in it.

18 But the President says, "Peter Navarro releases 36-page report alleging election

19 fraud 'more than sufficient' to swing victory to Trump. A great report by Peter.

20 Statistically impossible to have lost the Election."

21 And the reference then to January 6th: "Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be

22 there, will be wild!"

23 Did you have any idea about how this came about, the President for the first time

24 publicly talking about the January 6th event in D.C.?

25 A No.
 218

1 Q All right. You didn't have any role in whether or not he should talk about

2 January 6th in the days before?

3 A No.

4 Q Okay. Were you familiar at all, Ms. Trump, with any discussion of potential

5 leadership change at the Department of Justice or other agencies in the end of December

6 or early January?

7 A No.

8 Q You have any idea about whether the President considered replacing Acting

9 Attorney General Rosen after Attorney General Barr had resigned?

10 A I don't know.

11 Q Did you ever have any discussion with him or others about the possibility of

12 other personnel changes at the senior levels of executive agencies in the days in

13 December and January?

14 A Not that I recall.

15 Q Okay. Did you ever hear anything about outreach to Members of Congress

16 encouraging them to object to the certification of the election in particular States?

17 A No.

18 Q Did you ever reach out to Members of Congress before January 6th to talk

19 about the certification proceeding?

20 A No.

21 Q And do you know whether or not your father or others on his behalf had

22 those discussions?

23 A I don't know.

24 Q Okay. It's been reported there was a meeting on December the 21st with

25 the President and the Vice President and a number of Members of Congress to discuss
 219

1 raising objections on January 6th.

2 Do you have any memory of either attending or hearing about that meeting?

3 A I didn't attend that meeting and I don't recall hearing about that meeting.

4 Q Okay. We've talked a lot about the Vice President and the dispute that he

5 had with the President about the scope of his authority.

6 Did you have any recollection prior to the heated conversation that you talked

7 about earlier about their respective positions about the Vice President's authority in the

8 days before January 6th?

9 A No.

10 Q Do you know John Eastman?

11 A No.

12 Q Had you ever -- did you ever meet him? Have you ever met him to this

13 day?

14 A I don't believe so.

15 Q Okay. So you certainly don't recall any conversations with him about the

16 Vice President's authority?

17 A No.

18 Q Okay. Did you have any discussions with anyone about the extent of the

19 Vice President's authority with respect to the certification procedure, what he could or

20 couldn't do before January 6th?

21 A Nothing. No.

22 Q Okay. There are a couple of conversations, face-to-face conversations,

23 between President Trump and the Vice President in the days before January 6th.

24 Prior to the phone call that you witnessed on this topic, do you remember being

25 present for, either sort of coming or going, the President and Vice President meeting face
 220

1 to face in the White House about this topic before the phone call that you witnessed?

2 A I don't.

3 Q Do you know whether or not they had disagreements, additional

4 disagreements beyond the phone call, on this topic in those days?

5 A I don't.

6 Q Did you ever talk to Marc Short or any others who worked for the Vice

7 President about that, about this dispute about the Vice President's authority?

8 A No.

9 Q Do you remember getting any emails or messages about the Vice President's

10 authority, what he could or couldn't do in the days before January 6th?

11 A I don't believe so.

12 Q Let me just show you one. It's exhibit 24. It was an email that was sent to

13 you, along with a number of others, on December 23rd of 2020, from Ivan Raiklin.

14 Do you know Ivan Raiklin?

15 A I don't think so.

16 Q Any recollection of who that is or what role he may have played?

17 A No.

18 Q Okay. Well, he, on December 23rd at 2:43 p.m., sends to a number of

19 people, which includes [email protected], which I assume is you, a message with some

20 links, and then a memo that is entitled, "Operation 'Pence' Card."

21 Do you remember receiving this message from Mr. Raiklin?

22 A I don't.

23 Q Do you have any recollection about Operation Pence Card or any discussion

24 of what the Vice President could or couldn't do on January 6th?

25 A No.
 221

1 Q All right. And Mr. Raiklin then, it looks like at the very top, later that day

2 sends it on to Mr. Meadows.

3 Again, did you ever talk to Mr. Meadows about Operation Pence Card or the Vice

4 President's authority?

5 A No.

6 Q There's one particular account of a face-to-face meeting between the

7 President and the Vice President that occurs in the Oval Office on January 5th. And I

8 just want to read it to you and tell you if you have any recollection of hearing about it.

9 believe it's from the Woodward and Costa book "Peril."

10 And the book just reads, "Referring to Trump supporters gathering outside the

11 White House on January 5th, Pence remarked that they love the President, but they also

12 love our Constitution. Trump said that that was true, but they agreed that Pence could

13 and should throw Biden's electors out. 'Make it fair, take it back."' Meaning they, the

14 people outside, agreed that Pence could throw the electors out.

15 And it quotes the President as saying, "That is all I want you to do, Mike. Let the

16 House decide the election. What do you think, Mike?"

17 "And Pence reportedly returned to his mantra: He did not have the authority to

18 do anything other than count the electoral votes.

19 "The President's reported to have asked, 'Well, what if these people say you do?'

20 gesturing to the folks outside. 'If these people say you had the power, wouldn't you

21 want to?"'

22 And the Vice President responds, "I wouldn't want any one person to have that

23 authority."

24 Do you remember ever hearing about any discussion between the President and

25 the Vice President about whether or not people wanted him to have authority or whether
 222

1 he does or doesn't believe he has that authority?

2 A No.

3 Q Did you have any information, Ms. Trump, about the nature and extent of

4 the President's face-to-face conversations with the Vice President on January 4th or 5th?

5 A The only conversation I heard half of -- because I couldn't hear the Vice

6 President -- was the phone call on the morning of January 6th, which I heard a portion of

7 and I testified to extensively earlier.

8 Q You have, and I won't go over that again. I'm just trying to get a sense as to

9 whether that was kind of out of the blue and a surprise to you or whether you were

10 aware before that phone call, half of which you witnessed, that there had been a sort of

11 an ongoing difference of opinion between those two?

12 A I had not overheard or participated in any discussion relating to that.

13 Q Had anybody ever shared with you that there was such a disagreement,

14 anyone inside or outside of the White House?

15 A Not that I remember.

16 Q All right. And then later the night of January the 5th, after these

17 face-to-face conversations but before the one in the morning that you heard of, the

18 President issues a public statement in which he says, "The Vice President and I are in

19 agreement that he has the authority to put" -- "to reject certain slates of electors."

20 Do you remember being aware of that statement that the President put out on

21 the night of January 5th?

22 A No.

23 Q Okay. And that was met with a very surprised and angry response from

24 Marc Short and he conveyed that to Jason Miller.

25 Do you remember any discussion about the statement being inconsistent with the
 223

1 discussion between those two men earlier that day?

2 A No.

3 Q All right. So when you witnessed the conversation, Ms. Trump, is it fair to

4 say you had no prior awareness whatsoever of a difference of opinion on the Vice

5 President's authority until that moment when you heard the conversation?

6 A I believe there was some public dialogue about this, but you've told me

7 earlier that this testimony is not related to that, but only conversations that I was privy

8 to, and I don't recall anyone having spoken to me about those matters.

9 Q Okay. Well, let me make sure I understand that.

10 Had you been aware yourself prior to January 6th -- through reporting, not

11 necessarily from conversations -- that there was a difference of opinion?

12 A I can't today tell you when I became aware. If it was public reporting, as

13 I'm deducing since you said there was a public statement saying that they were aligned,

14 which I'm accepting as -- but I don't recall the specifics around that timing. So then I'm

15 assuming there was public discussion.

16 Q Yeah. Again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth; I'm just trying to

17 get a sense as to when you heard this heated conversation, whether that was the first

18 indication you had of there being a disagreement or whether, from some source,

19 reporting or otherwise, you were aware that they had a --

20 A This is the first time I had experienced a disagreement between them on this

21 topic, yes.

22 Q Okay. All right. After January 6th, were you privy to any discussions

23 about whether or not the President should pardon people who were associated with the

24 January 6th events?

25 A No, and I was involved in most of the pardon discussions and commutation
 224

1 discussions after that point. But I saw that reported, but it was never raised in any

2 meeting that I was in.

3 Q Okay. So you were involved in lots of discussions about pardons or

4 commutations, but none of them involved whether or not he could -- should pardon

5 people that were involved in events at the Capitol?

6 A Correct.

7 Q Okay. How about discussions about whether the President should pardon

8 himself or members of his family? Were you involved in those discussions?

9 A I also saw that being speculated about in the media, but that was never

10 something that he discussed with me or that I sought or discussed with anyone else.

11 Q Okay. I appreciate that.

12 How about any members of his legal team or his advisers? Any discussions

13 about pardons, prospective pardons, to Rudy Giuliani or Steve Bannon or Members of

14 Congress or White House staff with respect to election-related matters?

15 A Well, Steve Bannon was one of the individuals who ultimately was pardoned,

16 as part of many pardons in the final weeks, but the pardon didn't relate to election

17 matters. It was a separate case.

18 I wasn't involved in adjudicating that particular case, but I know that the President

19 did issue that pardon.

20 Q Yep. All exactly right. They had to do with an unrelated matter. I'm

21 talking more about discussion of a pardon of Bannon or others with respect to

22 election-specific activities.

23 A No.

24 Q Okay. We understand that there was a meeting on January the 16th of

25 2021, just a few days before the administration ended, in which you were personally
 225

1 involved, with President Trump, with Jared Kushner, with Eric Herschmann, and with Pat

2 Cipollone, where you were going through the prospect of pardons.

3 Do you remember a specific discussion on that date?

4 A We held many meetings that included those individuals and others as well

5 who were involved in the pardon process, and so it makes sense that one would take

6 place around that time. Up until our last day, we were advocating for what we believed

7 were worthy cases.

8 Q Okay. And it's just been reported that during that meeting there was,

9 again, some discussion about the President issuing certain pardons related to the election

10 and that Mr. Cipollone and Herschmann pushed back on that idea because the President

11 would have to list specific offenses or crimes for which he was issuing those pardons.

12 Do you remember any specific discussion about, "Hey, pardons have to be for

13 particularly articulated offenses and you shouldn't identify any of those," something like

14 that?

15 A Typically, the structure of those meetings was sitting down in a large group

16 with the President, going through individual cases pretty exhaustively, where he'd ask

17 questions about the file, someone would be championing the case or would be a

18 detractor and not in favor.

19 But they were not not high-level conversations. Those conversations may have

20 occurred, but not -- I wasn't present for them. And I don't think they would've occurred

21 in a context like this.

22 It was really very specific. There was a list of individual names. There

23 was -- the cases had run through a process and had been adjudicated by White House

24 Counsel's Office, DOJ, and were being presented for consideration.

25 Q I completely understand that, and my guess is there were a number of

 226

1 meetings on this topic. But I'm just asking if you remember any specific discussion in

2 which Mr. Cipollone or Mr. Herschmann indicated that certain pardons would place the

3 President in a legally perilous position, that it would convey the appearance of guilt,

4 potentially make him more vulnerable to reprisals.

5 Any discussion about whether or not pardons might convey that there's a

6 consciousness or acknowledgement of guilt, something like that?

7 A Those discussions may have taken place, but I don't recall them.

8 Q Okay. All right. It's been -- do you know whether or not since the

9 conversation that you helped facilitate, Ms. Trump, between the President and the Vice

10 President, that they've had any subsequent contact?

11 A I don't know. I felt they may have this spring, but I don't know specifically.

12 Q Okay. What, if anything, do you know about any subsequent

13 communication between the President and the -- former President and the former Vice

14 President?

15 A I don't have any knowledge on what those conversations have been, if there

16 were conversations.

17 Q Yeah. We've been told that they haven't had any communication at all

18 since the end of the administration. Do you know whether or not that's accurate?

19 A I don't.

20 Q Have you heard the President say anything about the Vice President, either

21 with respect to his actions on January 6th or statements that the Vice President has made

22 about why he did what he did on January 6th, any time since then?

23 A No.

24 Q How about after the Vice President's speech that you referenced earlier in

25 response to Ms. Cheney, the speech he gave where he talked about what -- the President
 227

1 was wrong, I think was the term he used in his speech? Did you ever talk to your father

2 about his reaction when Vice President Pence made that speech?

3 A I didn't, no.

4 Q Okay. Has he made any statements to you about Vice President Pence

5 since the end of the administration that you recall?

6 A No.

7 Q How about the select committee, what have you heard the President say?

8 I understand what he said publicly, but I'm wondering whether he said anything to you

9 privately about the work that the select committee here is doing.

10 A No.

11 Q Have you asked him about it or talked with him about it, about this

12 investigation that the select committee is conducting?

13 A It was public that a letter asking for me to voluntarily come in and

14 participate was issued, but I did not tell him that I was coming in today.

15 Q Why not?

16 A No reason. I just -- I've been -- I guess there's no reason. I'd

17 prefer -- yeah. I'm not sure actually, but I didn't make him aware of it.

18 Q Okay. Well, then I was about to ask whether or not he'd given you any

19 advice about what you should or shouldn't do when you came here to voluntarily

20 cooperate with us. It sounds like you didn't even talk to him about the fact that you

21 were coming.

22 A I -- after the letter was made public inviting me to attend, I was actually

23 traveling with my children at the time. So I was -- I was not -- I was not in Florida. But I

24 remember him saying something in a subsequent conversation to the effect of, "Great,

25 you should do it," or something -- something like that. It was sort of very casual.
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1 Because I told him immediately upon receiving it, I indicated my willingness to

2 participate in these hearings and be as forthright as possible, and he didn't discourage

3 that in any way.

4 Q Yeah. Okay. Did he ever talk about his own desire to speak with the

5 select committee, if asked?

6 A I don't think so, no.

7 Q Have you ever heard him say privately about what his response would be if

8 invited to provide information to the select committee?

9 A My guess is he'd welcome the opportunity. But I've never heard him say

10 one way or the other.

11 Q What makes you say that he'd welcome it? What has he said or done that

12 gives you that impression?

13 A I think he's very forthright with his opinion and perspective as it pertains to

14 all of these issues.

15 Q But he hasn't made any specific statement about his potential approach to

16 the select committee to you?

17 A Not outside of what's public.

18 Q Yeah. Okay. All right.

19 I think you indicated before, I wrote down, that you spoke to Charlotte Pence.

20 Do you remember when that was, when you actually spoke to the Vice -- the former Vice

21 President's daughter?

22 A In the days following January 6th.

23 Q Okay. So it was still when Vice President Pence was in office, it was before

24 the end of the administration?

25 A Correct.
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1 Q I see. Did you speak to her by phone or in person?

2 A By phone.

3 Q And did she tell you about her experience? She was with her father in the

4 Capitol complex that day. Did she tell you about her experience?

5 A I called to check in on her and to see how she was doing.

6 Q Yeah. What, if anything, do you remember her saying about her

7 experience or how she was doing?

8 A I remember her -- I remember thinking she was very courageous and quite

9 brave. And, obviously, it was not a great experience, but -- for her. It was -- it would

10 be an understatement, obviously.

11 But she was -- I remember her being very resilient and strong in her tone and the

12 way we talked about it and appreciative of the call.

13 Q She must've appreciated your outreach to call and check on her?

14 A She articulated that she did. And I've seen her since. So I like her very

15 much.

16 Q Yeah. And did you ever talk to your father that day about whether he

17 should call and express concern or check in on the Vice President?

18 A I don't know if I spoke to him about it specifically prior to the evening that I

19 relayed tonight. I may have. I just don't know.

20 Q Do you know why he did not reach out to the Vice President at any time on

21 January 6th?

22 A I don't.

23 Q All right. Ms. Trump, is there anything at all that I haven't asked you that

24 you want to make sure we know? Anything at all that you think might be relevant to the

25 select committee's work that my question didn't prompt, but you think is important?
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1 A I think this was incredibly comprehensive, so no.

2 Okay. All right. Let me see if any members who are on have any

3 additional questions before we stop. I see Ms. Cheney is still on. I don't know if any

4 other members are.

5 How about you, ? No?

6 I don't have anything.

7 ~ Okay.

8 All right. Ms. Trump, it's 3 minutes before 6. So, like you, I try to be punctual.

9 I appreciate your indulgence. I appreciate your willingness to voluntarily provide

10 this information, this important information to the select committee. Thank you very

11 much.

12 And at this point, I'll let you get to your kids and your family.

13 Ms. Trump. Thank you. Have a good evening.

14 Thank you. Thank you. You as well.

15 [Whereupon, at 5:57 p.m., the interview was concluded.]

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1 Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee

4 I have read the foregoing _ _ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the

5 answers made by me to the questions therein recorded.

10 Witness Name

11

12

13

14 Date

15