8/1/2021 How is P delta effect is different from combination of lateral load and dead load, floor Finish, live

nation of lateral load and dead load, floor Finish, live load?

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Question Asked 2nd May, 2018 in the project Derivation of Analytical Models for the Effects of
Nonlinear Second-order P-δ Moments on the Inelastic Response of Slender Reinforced
Concrete Columns
Tejus Jain
Datta Meghe College of Engineering
How is P delta effect is different from combination of lateral load and dead load, floor Finish, live
load?
Without P - Delta effect, when we check model for different load combinations we also check for
lateral load+dead load. Then what is different in the analysis of p delta effect in etabs?

ETABS Laterality

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Most recent answer

Vikhyat Sujay Katti 17th Oct, 2019

Gogte Institute of Technology

To add to Mohammad Mahdi Gholami 's answer, software applies each load case individually to the
structure and computes the analysis results (displacements, forces, etc.). When the user asks for
results from the software for design load combinations like DL+LL or DL+LL+EL (with load factors of
course), the software simply adds the results obtained from analysis for individual lad cases. For
example, let the two load cases be gravity loads (L_gravity) and seismic loads (L_seismic). The
software imposes these load cases separately on the structure and analysis the structure twice, once
for L_gravity and second time for L_seismic and computes deformation D_gravity and D_seismic
https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_is_P_delta_effect_is_different_from_combination_of_lateral_load_and_dead_load_floor_Finish_live_load 1/13
8/1/2021 How is P delta effect is different from combination of lateral load and dead load, floor Finish, live load?

during each analysis. when the user now asks for total deformation due to design combination of
L_gravity + L_seismic, the software simply produces the result D_gravity + D_seismic. the fact to be
remembered here is that the software imposes L_gravity on the un-deformed shape of the structure
and again imposes L_seismic on the un-deformed shape of the structure. In reality these two loads
act simultaneously, where L_seismic actually acts on the structure that has already undergone
deformation due to L_gravity and vice-versa. this effect of one load acting on the deformed shape of
the structure due to another load is not captured in the simple first order analysis. only when the
software is asked to perform second-order analysis (P-delta analysis) does it impose the two load
cases together and not separately, as is the case in first order analysis

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Popular Answers (1)

Ata Babazadeh 4th May, 2018

Rice University

First, P-delta is a second-order effect that can be only captured via a second-order analysis. This
means that the equilibrium of the external loads and internal forces is satisfied on the deformed
configuration of the structure. Second-order analysis is different from a first-order analysis in which
the load combination is applied to the undeformed structure. Defining a load combo does not
necessarily capture the p-delta (or any other second-order effect) because all the loads (lateral,
dead, and live) are applied to the undeformed structure all together and the displacements are
computed in one step at the end of analysis. A second-order analysis would use the displacements
(deformations) from the previous step, update the geometry of the structure, which is deformed due
to incremental loads, and satisfy the equilibrium on the deformed geometry. A new set of
displacements are then computed and added to the ones from the previous step. In short, linear first-
order analysis is a one-step calculation, but second-order one requires an iterative process in which
the loads are applied by small increments, the geometry is continuously updated according to the
computed displacements and the iteration continues until the equilibrium is reached on the deformed
structure.

Second, P-delta is a geometrically nonlinear effect. That is, the stiffness of the structure is no longer
constant (which is the case in linear analyses) as the structure deforms due to the applied loads.
Deformations caused by the loads, e.g. bending of a beam-column due to the internal moments,
affect its stiffness in a way that the initial stiffness calculated based off the undeformed column is not
representative of its true stiffness. Therefore, the stiffness of the structure keeps changing during the
https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_is_P_delta_effect_is_different_from_combination_of_lateral_load_and_dead_load_floor_Finish_live_load 2/13
8/1/2021 How is P delta effect is different from combination of lateral load and dead load, floor Finish, live load?

analysis and as a result, the Force-Displacement response of the structure is no longer linear. This
type of nonlinearity is merely caused by the deformation of the structure and should not be confused
with the material nonlinearity and plasticity.

I am not sure about Etabs, but I know how to implement a second-order analysis in SAP2000, which
is developed by the same company as Etabs and should be similar to Etabs. In SAP2000, you are
given the option to choose the "analysis type" in "Load Case Data" window. The options are linear
(First-order), which is chosen by default and "Nonlinear", which is the one that needs to be selected
for P-Delta (and P-delta) analyses. Once nonlinear option is selected, you will be provided the option
to choose "P-Delta", or "P-Delta + Large Displacements" (Deformations to be precise). The
difference between the two options is that the former only captures P-Delta (capital Delta) while the
latter captures both P-Delta (Capital Delta) and P-delta (small letter delta).

Here is a link that I found for Implementing P-Delta in SAP2000:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzWocAtK03I

Cite 8 Recommendations

All Answers (11)

Ibrahim Aydogdu 2nd May, 2018

Akdeniz University

P Delta effect involves the equilibrium and compatibility relationships of a structural system loaded
about its deflected configuration. If your structure is higher, the difference becomes higher. I am not
sure which methods Etabs uses for calculation of P Delta analysis but you can get more information
from CSI America ( Etabs) web page. https://wiki.csiamerica.com/m/view-rendered-page.action?
spaceKey=kb&title=P-Delta+effect

Cite
Tejus Jain 2nd May, 2018
Datta Meghe College of Engineering

Sir, my doubt is not cleared. Even we consider equilibrium and compatibility relationships, there has
to be different calculation for p -delta as p delta is effect of deflection due to lateral force and dead
weight. Due to lateral load column deflects, but due to self weight extra deflection takes place. But if
https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_is_P_delta_effect_is_different_from_combination_of_lateral_load_and_dead_load_floor_Finish_live_load 3/13
8/1/2021 How is P delta effect is different from combination of lateral load and dead load, floor Finish, live load?

we consider combination of lateral load and dead load we should get same effect, shouldn't we? My
doubt is that only how the load combination and p delta is different?

Cite
Ibrahim Aydogdu 3rd May, 2018
Akdeniz University

I mean P-Delta effect is analysis method and its efficiency is related to the deformation of the
structure. If you consider self weight, deformation will change. Therefore, P-Delta effect changes.

Cite
Ata Babazadeh 4th May, 2018
Rice University

First, P-delta is a second-order effect that can be only captured via a second-order analysis. This
means that the equilibrium of the external loads and internal forces is satisfied on the deformed
configuration of the structure. Second-order analysis is different from a first-order analysis in which
the load combination is applied to the undeformed structure. Defining a load combo does not
necessarily capture the p-delta (or any other second-order effect) because all the loads (lateral,
dead, and live) are applied to the undeformed structure all together and the displacements are
computed in one step at the end of analysis. A second-order analysis would use the displacements
(deformations) from the previous step, update the geometry of the structure, which is deformed due
to incremental loads, and satisfy the equilibrium on the deformed geometry. A new set of
displacements are then computed and added to the ones from the previous step. In short, linear first-
order analysis is a one-step calculation, but second-order one requires an iterative process in which
the loads are applied by small increments, the geometry is continuously updated according to the
computed displacements and the iteration continues until the equilibrium is reached on the deformed
structure.

Second, P-delta is a geometrically nonlinear effect. That is, the stiffness of the structure is no longer
constant (which is the case in linear analyses) as the structure deforms due to the applied loads.
Deformations caused by the loads, e.g. bending of a beam-column due to the internal moments,
affect its stiffness in a way that the initial stiffness calculated based off the undeformed column is not
representative of its true stiffness. Therefore, the stiffness of the structure keeps changing during the
analysis and as a result, the Force-Displacement response of the structure is no longer linear. This
type of nonlinearity is merely caused by the deformation of the structure and should not be confused
with the material nonlinearity and plasticity.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_is_P_delta_effect_is_different_from_combination_of_lateral_load_and_dead_load_floor_Finish_live_load 4/13
8/1/2021 How is P delta effect is different from combination of lateral load and dead load, floor Finish, live load?

I am not sure about Etabs, but I know how to implement a second-order analysis in SAP2000, which
is developed by the same company as Etabs and should be similar to Etabs. In SAP2000, you are
given the option to choose the "analysis type" in "Load Case Data" window. The options are linear
(First-order), which is chosen by default and "Nonlinear", which is the one that needs to be selected
for P-Delta (and P-delta) analyses. Once nonlinear option is selected, you will be provided the option
to choose "P-Delta", or "P-Delta + Large Displacements" (Deformations to be precise). The
difference between the two options is that the former only captures P-Delta (capital Delta) while the
latter captures both P-Delta (Capital Delta) and P-delta (small letter delta).

Here is a link that I found for Implementing P-Delta in SAP2000:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzWocAtK03I

Cite 8 Recommendations
Georgios Baltzopoulos 4th May, 2018
University of Naples Federico II

As mentioned above, P-Delta implies (geometrical) non-linearity, where equilibrium and compatibility
must be satisfied at the deformed configuration of the structure. In the linear-elastic case we can use
superposition (forces and displacements due to many effects are the sum of these quantities
calculated for each effect separately), precisely because we satisfy equilibrium/compatibility at the
undeformed configuration (thus common to all effects and their combinations).

Once the calculation becomes non-linear, this is no longer the case and the calculation must be
conducted with all loads acting on the structural model; if P-Delta is non-negligible in the specific
case, the resulting deflections are not comparable to the sum of deflections when some effects are
considered separately.

Cite
Muhammad S. Elfeky 4th May, 2018
National Research Center, Egypt

Dear colleague

Simply the P-delta is a second order non linear iterational effect. Where the load combination you
mentioned is capturing only the first point to start p-delta analysis with. Thank you

Cite

Nguyen-Trong Ho 16th Oct, 2018

https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_is_P_delta_effect_is_different_from_combination_of_lateral_load_and_dead_load_floor_Finish_live_load 5/13
8/1/2021 How is P delta effect is different from combination of lateral load and dead load, floor Finish, live load?

VŠB-Technical University of Ostrava

Dear colleague,

There is regulation about P-delta analysis for seismic load but not for wind load. Do you know any
standard or theory consider this load in P-delta analysis ?

Thank you.

Cite
Ibrahim Aydogdu 17th Oct, 2018
Akdeniz University

LRFD manual presents approximate formula for frame structures using P-Delta analysis in chapter C

Cite
Hussam Ali Mohammed 8th Nov, 2018
Al-Furat Al-Awsat Technical University

Good question.. Please share me the best answer might you trust...

Regards…

Cite
Mohammad Mahdi Gholami 8th Oct, 2019
Amirkabir University of Technology

When a structure is investigated without considering P-Delta effects and resulting deflections are
small, the load-deflection relationship is linear. By considering P-Delta effects and utilizing secon-
order-analysis, effect of loads on deformed structure will be investigated. If one of the loads or
resulting deformations are large, load-deflection behavior may become nonlinear. Please see
chapter XXII of the following book.

http://docs.csiamerica.com/manuals/misc/CSI%20Analysis%20Reference%20Manual%202011-
12.pdf

Cite

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8/1/2021 How is P delta effect is different from combination of lateral load and dead load, floor Finish, live load?

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