Polyvagal Informed Therapy Master Class Transcripts Modules 15
Polyvagal Informed Therapy Master Class Transcripts Modules 15
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Zach Taylor (03:51):
So if what I hear is that understanding where your client is in their nervous system is sort of a
foundation for working for all of the other things. Their thoughts, their stories, their personal narratives,
their habits they're trying to break. Understanding what part of their nervous system that comes from is
pretty key.
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more than that, in your own daily living, that you can never again not see the world through that lens.
So for me, I read Steve's book. Steve and his wife Sue, who is also a researcher in oxytocin, came to
Maine and did a two-day presentation for my group and my colleagues. From that point on, it was, ooh
how do I bring this into work with my clients? Because I love theory, I love science, and then it's like,
what do I do with it? And so for me, that's always the next step. It's sort of, what do I do with this?
That's where my work was born.
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Deb Dana (10:15):
It starts in the brain stem, and then moves down your body. It does have some interactions going
upward to your cortex, so it does communicate that way. But basically, it is a below the level of the
brain. It's a brain stem and down system. So it's working in the background.
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inherently longs to be and tries to have us be, in-ventral. And when we move out of ventral because of a
challenge to us, a challenge in the environment, something that feels too big, we go to sympathetic.
That's the next stop on this hierarchy into mobilization and fight and flight, or aggression or escape. And
if that then doesn't solve the problem through this hierarchy, you know where you go next. You go to
dorsa to disappear to an immobile place and then you collapse.
That's the joy of the hierarchy, is it shows you the pathway. We each travel that pathway at
different rates of speed and for different amounts of time, but that's the pathway that humans travel.
And then as you can see, because of the hierarchy, to get back, we go back up the hierarchy from dorsal,
to sympathetic, to ventral.
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Sympathetic impacts our heart rhythms, our breathing rhythms, our movement of our limbs. It's a vital
part. But when they go into adaptive survival modes because neuroception has said, ooh danger, then
we move into either the immobilization or dorsal, or the mobilization, fight-flight or sympathetic.
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Deb Dana (20:47):
Okay. Perfect. Good.
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this personal profile map is something I do in the very, very beginning of therapy. It really brings the
hierarchy alive for clients. And what is lovely about it is, it's not serving abstract thought. This is your
nervous system that we're getting to know. People often go, "Oh that's what happens there."
So imagine you've had some of that thought as you flipped over this map. If you were going to
fill the map in, one of the rules in polyvagal informed therapy is that whatever you're doing with your
client, you always want to end in ventral. So if we did this map fully, we would do sympathetic, and then
dorsal, and then end in ventral. Why we do that is we're reminding the nervous system that it has
flexibility to find ventral and be in ventral. So if we were starting in sympathetic... We're just going to do
the two questions that come into each. But if we were doing it fully, you'd be bringing a moment of
sympathetic alive in your system. We'll just be dipping a toe into it, because we don't want it to fully tick
you over. We just want to have enough of it so you can get a flavor of it. And you'd write in that middle
section of the ladder what happens in your body, what are your thoughts, what do you feel, what do
you do, what do you think.
So we would get all that described there but then the two sentences we're going to fill in. I'm
going to ask you, so when you are in that sympathetic state, what did you fill in for "the world is."
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We haven't even talked about an example, and I can feel it.
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going to that dorsal place of being trapped and immobilized. It's what keeps you moving. Two very
different landscapes. Two very different stories, right? So, let's come to ventral.
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Zach Taylor (33:06):
Being in the fire.
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Deb Dana (36:08):
Steve actually named this the vagal brake. The vagal brake is one certain pathway that is the ventral
vagal pathway, that goes to the sinoatrial node of your heart, which is your heart's pacemaker. And so
the role of this ventral vagal circuit is to regulate your heart rate. If the circuit was not there working,
your heart will be dangerously fast all the time. And so what it does, is it helps us keep an anchor... I call
it an anchoring ventral... so that we can engage with the sympathetic nervous system. We can feel the
beautiful mobilizing energy of the sympathetic nervous system without going into fight and flight.
Without going into a survival response. Because once we go into it and adapt a survival response and
sympathetic, cortisone and adrenaline begin to flood our system. And we know the outcome of that.
So the vagal brake really is what we're exercising when we do therapy because we're helping
our clients be able to regulate, to have a reflective response rather than an automatic reaction. And it's
the vagal brake that allows us to do that sort of movement of more energy, less energy, more energy,
less energy.
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For me, and we're in the middle of February right now as we record this. But, it's skiing. I was always
afraid of skiing. I didn't really learn as a little child, and I've never had a single lesson. Watching others,
and I guess, watching my wife who's a great skier, and sort of learning from her by osmosis, I've learned
that there's no slope that's really too steep, I mean, within reason, that I now can't navigate because I
learned to slow my skis. For me that triggered the image of a vagal brake because it's really not about
the situation alone that dictates how I feel in that situation but about my skill in navigating it, and my
ability to slow myself down. And engage my vagal brake or engage my ski in a particular way as I go
down the hill so I can go down and feel safe as I do it.
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brake when it goes away, you go to sympathetic and then it's gone. It has nothing to do with dorsal. So
the vagal brake's job is to help us move between ventral sympathetic in a regulated way, being able to
use the energy of our system. When it goes away, we're in full sympathetic fight-flight, and then end up
in dorsal. That's the hierarchy in action.
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Module 2: Mapping & Mastering the Three States of
Our Nervous System: Ventral, Sympathetic, & Dorsal
Deb Dana, LCSW
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Exactly, right. The second concept is what we're being perceptive of, and that is these three states of our
nervous system. There's essentially, and what Steve Porges's theory really proposes there are these
three basic states. We learn that neither of them are necessarily good or bad, but they're all different
states that are useful to us. You call these three states a hierarchy of states, and often put them on this
ladder as a metaphor.
Just remind us, because these are big words that it's easy to forget, just remind us what these
three states are called and how we work with them, and how we're going to work with them today.
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Good and you're right, it does look a lot of different ways. We're going to see it several ways in this
session, so I encourage people to look for it. One way you co-regulate is that you actually invite this
client. When they go to these different states that are quite scary to him, you offer to go with him and is
that a form of co-regulation?
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Deb Dana (00:09:08):
Sure, so this session is with Steve and Steve is an old ...
Steve (00:10:16):
This is okay.
Steve (00:10:20):
Because of my bubble.
Steve (00:10:20):
Yeah.
Steve (00:10:34):
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You're good. No further back.
Steve (00:10:38):
Yeah.
Steve (00:10:42):
Further forward. No further.
Steve (00:10:44):
You're good.
Steve (00:10:44):
Yeah.
Steve (00:10:47):
And me?
Steve (00:10:58):
Yeah, this is good.
Steve (00:10:59):
Yeah.
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Deb Dana (00:11:00):
Settled in a bit?
Steve (00:11:01):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Steve (00:11:23):
Yup.
Steve (00:11:26):
[inaudible 00:11:26].
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Good, so you're doing something else too that actually we can't see and that's, you're anchoring yourself
in ventral. Okay, that's probably a new word for people, a new phrase, anchoring yourself in ventral.
Break that down for us, what does that mean?
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Yeah, so for me ventral is an embodied experience here in a sort of this state of curiosity and interest
and a willingness to go wherever my client's nervous system wants us to go. Provide the anchor for my
client's nervous system, so a real trust in that.
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Zach Taylor (00:18:24):
Great. Okay, good, so with that, let's jump into clip number two.
Steve (00:18:34):
Me?
Steve (00:18:36):
Wow!
Steve (00:18:47):
Lower sympathetic some dorsal.
Steve (00:18:51):
I'm kind of firmly in it.
Steve (00:18:56):
Yeah.
Steve (00:19:11):
It's overall calm.
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Steve (00:19:17):
Yeah.
Steve (00:19:34):
Yeah, so I get stuck in terms of parts because it's just such [inaudible 00:19:39]. Anyway, so I'm aware
of-
Steve (00:19:42):
... I don't know if it's dorsal or sympathetic that's no.
Steve (00:19:53):
Getting too close.
Steve (00:20:03):
Probably both, but you and something inside.
Steve (00:20:20):
Connection to the known.
Steve (00:20:25):
To feel the connection.
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Deb Dana (00:20:28):
Your system says connection is dangerous in some way?
Steve (00:20:28):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Steve (00:20:37):
Yeah.
Steve (00:20:50):
First to sympathetic, run.
Steve (00:20:53):
Yeah.
Steve (00:20:56):
Right.
Steve (00:20:59):
Well I can't run.
Steve (00:21:01):
We're on video.
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Deb Dana (00:21:09):
Let your nervous system hear, if you need to mobilize, we will do that. You are not trapped here. Okay?
Steve (00:21:19):
So noted.
Steve (00:21:25):
Yeah, and there's this contradict, this whatever, part of me gets that.
Steve (00:21:38):
Another part of me won't let me, so there's a way in which I'm trapped based on me.
Steve (00:22:54):
Sympathetic has definitely settled.
Steve (00:23:00):
Yeah.
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Well, in the beginning we're just getting to know, where are we going to do some work today? What's
the pattern that comes up and what's the story around that pattern? He talks about, my question
usually is for a client as was with him, where are you right now? I want to know in this moment where
are you, and then he begins to talk about he's sympathetic and the fear of connection. We end up with
wanting to run.
One thing I did want to mention that you can see in this clip and hopefully in the other ones too,
that there's humor woven in. It's playful at times, which I really believe is important in this work as well.
It's powerful work, but playfulness is a part of it too, because at one point near the end of the clip, he
says, "Well, I can't run," because I'm reminding him, "You can always come back." He said, "I can't, we're
on video, we're taping this."
It's interesting because the nervous system when it doesn't have choice, brings a survival
response. For him that was a cue of danger, "I can't run." I said, "Of course you can, we can get up and
go anytime." Again, it's offering choice, understanding that, that's a cue of danger and offering choice,
we can get up and go.
The other piece that I really loved that came in the very beginning was, we had done an exercise
in the workshop earlier on the vagal break.
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that sympathetic but not go totally into sympathetic. So we came back to that a few times, I think, to
really feel what's it like when your sail is adjusted just the right way? That flow, that sense of safety and
regulation. You know?
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Yeah. So... Interesting. When you work in this way, when somebody is feeling a lot of sympathetic or
dorsal that we're going to see later in the demo with Steve. Rather than coming back to ventral
immediately, I like to say, "How about if we bring a little ventral to the state you're in, rather than
leaving that state?" It's a different experience. Sometimes we want to leave the state and come back to
ventral, and we do that a few times, too. But let's bring some ventral into the state you're in and see
what happens, which is a different kind of navigating the nervous system. And it's amazing what
happens when you bring a little bit of ventral. You could see, at the end, when we trimmed the sails just
right. And Steve said, "Oh, my sympathetic has calmed." Right? Right. Because we have a little more
ventral there with it. So that's really what I like to do with my clients rather than saying, "Well, let's
escape that place you are." No, no. Let's find a way to safely inhabit that place you are. Let's bring a little
ventral.
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Because we were truly trying to be just in this Polyvagal place. But parts come in all the time. And for
me, what I say, and I will acknowledge the part and then go back to the state because for me, what
happens is the state arises. And then all of the parts that are connected to that state find the door open
for them to come and appear and be felt, seen, recognized and impact. So, again, it's like I'm getting
underneath the part to the environment that part lives in. So Steve would say a part, "Uh-huh. Of
course." Right? And then we just gently go back to the...
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your ventral landscape, where are you? What's the image? Are you out on the water? Are you by the
water? Are you at the top of a mountain? Where would you be?
Steve (00:34:50):
Of the exercise that we just did?
Steve (00:34:56):
There was a moment after the... Oh, what day? Whatever.
Steve (00:35:07):
It was Sunday. Suzanne and I had been out all day, doing this and that.
Steve (00:35:13):
Seeing all these places. And at the end of the day, we were kind of killing a little time before dinner and
went to Wellfleet, sat on a bench on the beach. Water, sun, the afternoon sun. And my feet burned. And
she said, "Put them up." And she rubbed my feet, just laying there. The bench was just so ventral.
Steve (00:35:43):
It really was, just hanging out. Yeah. Connected.
Steve (00:35:50):
Yeah, yeah.
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Steve (00:36:28):
Just someone other than her asking for connection.
Steve (00:36:41):
And mostly, especially, actually, it's connection that's not protected by support. Like those connections
[crosstalk 00:00:36:55].
Steve (00:36:54):
It's the ones that are...
Steve (00:36:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Steve (00:37:15):
Just coming into any kind of interaction.
Steve (00:37:23):
Yeah. Who want to talk to you.
Steve (00:37:23):
Yeah.
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So it's like this in sympathetic.
Steve (00:37:29):
Yeah, it is.
Steve (00:37:33):
I always say, "Avoid the talkers."
Steve (00:37:40):
It's a little hard in my work, in the personal world.
Steve (00:37:47):
Yeah.
Steve (00:37:52):
Yeah.
Steve (00:38:12):
I don't know.
Steve (00:38:21):
So, mentally, if I'm there, I just mentally go back.
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Deb Dana (00:38:22):
So you leave, and you come back to the bench.
Steve (00:38:25):
I go back to the bench, just sort of reactivate the memory.
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So he said, "It's when anyone asks me for connection outside of some kind of formal work boundary.
Like a friendship, or maybe somewhere in public." I'm sure there's many other situations, but he
identified that right away.
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But right there is that place of safety and connection, and it's not that far away. So then we have to
figure out, well, how do we then get there? Right?
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Zach Taylor (00:44:35):
What an interesting way to close this out because in our next clip, we're going to see him actually having
some doubt in your statement that he can go to this place of sympathetic fight and flight and not get
stuck. He's not quite sure he trusts you quite yet, but that's the case.
Steve (00:45:33):
So, yeah. I get that neurologically, through memory, that state is always there. Physical reality is that
state's not always there.
Steve (00:45:52):
I have. Yeah. Yeah. And because the dynamics change, depending on the situation.
Steve (00:46:49):
It knows how to get back to ventral.
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Steve (00:47:03):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Steve (00:47:05):
In the professional [inaudible 00:22:10].
Steve (00:47:10):
Okay.
Steve (00:48:00):
My dorsal's activated. But I can perceive warmth, genuineness, invitation.
Steve (00:48:41):
Yeah. It can perceive you.
Steve (00:49:01):
It's impressive how the story [inaudible 00:24:10].
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whenever you want. It's just here to go on that journey with you, wherever your system wants to take
us. Okay? What is your system doing right now?
Steve (00:49:45):
It's cautiously calm.
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So that's that choice. You know, we talked about context, choice and connection, that's the -
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Yes.
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And you hear him, you ask him what he's actually perceiving, and he says, "Yes, it can perceive safety
right now."
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Mm-hmm (affirmative) yes.
Steven (00:58:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Steven (00:58:33):
It's dangerous.
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Deb Dana (00:58:33):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Steven (00:58:41):
It's emotionally dangerous.
Steven (00:58:53):
It's Stranger Things. It's dark-
Steven (00:58:59):
It's scary.
Steven (00:59:00):
It's reality... like there's a dizziness.
Steven (00:59:09):
Like you got your head on a swivel, you just got to watch.
But from a real, withdrawn place, like looking out from the head of a cave.
Steven (00:59:25):
Yes.
Steven (00:59:31):
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Yes.
Steven (00:59:49):
Wow.
Steven (00:59:51):
[inaudible 00:59:55].
Steven (01:00:21):
Yes, both.
Steven (01:00:59):
It's weird.
Steven (01:01:01):
Yes.
Steven (01:01:08):
Kind of almost too much.
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Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Steven (01:01:11):
Like I get the sense of... sensory [crosstalk 01:01:22].
Steven (01:01:13):
Like just-
Steven (01:01:18):
... close up [inaudible 00:11:20].
Steven (01:01:23):
Yes.
Steven (01:01:29):
Yes, better?
Steven (01:01:39):
Yes.
Steven (01:01:39):
Yes.
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Steven (01:01:41):
Yes.
Steven (01:01:54):
Sort of like you're in the mouth of the cave. You're not outside-
Steven (01:01:54):
... you don't have to be out-
Steven (01:01:56):
... but you're not in.
Steven (01:02:34):
It's such a foreign idea.
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Zach Taylor (01:03:21):
He describes it using words, "dark," "scary," "I got to watch out," "I'm withdrawn." "It's too much
sensory overload." Is this pretty typical language for someone in a dorsal state?
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Do you think that's part of why he's able to do this?
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And he tells you, very clearly, you're over there.
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Deb Dana (01:07:38):
Yes.
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Zach Taylor (01:08:49):
"I've never thought that, felt that."
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Deb Dana (01:10:17):
Let's do it.
So let's just really resource the resource and say, "That exists," and it's always there. That one
nerve sending that energy. Just stay with that for a minute, and feel it, and notice what happens when I
recognize that?
Steven (01:10:35):
It's like you stood up.
Steven (01:10:54):
Like it doesn't have to stay there.
Steven (01:11:06):
Mixed.
Steven (01:11:09):
One aspect wants to leave the cave.
Steven (01:11:12):
The other one is not so sure.
Steven (01:11:20):
But, standing up.
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Steven (01:11:22):
Yes.
Steven (01:11:34):
Definitely more active.
Steven (01:11:49):
Yes. The thought wants to go, now I have to go with one of the talkers.
Steven (01:12:03):
Yes.
Steven (01:12:28):
The sense of having some control over it.
Steven (01:12:38):
Yes.
Steven (01:12:44):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
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Deb Dana (01:12:45):
The system took you to that collapsed cave because that was the only option.
And now you're saying, "I can go there. I have some options. I can begin to regulate my nervous
system."
Steven (01:13:00):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Steven (01:13:05):
Oh, this idea of not being trapped there, being able to leave-
Steven (01:13:12):
Being able to go back. Yes. Both ways.
Steven (01:13:14):
Yes.
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And I loved it when he said "I have to go through the talkers." Well, we don't really have to go
through talkerville because your mobilization by standing is your nervous system's version of going
through talkerville.
And then we can keep going up to the ventral. And again, if you have a vagal break metaphor in
place-
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Zach Taylor (01:15:16):
Or you don't have to get stuck. It will pull you through. All the way.
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Zach Taylor (01:16:40):
Mm.
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Stephen Porges (01:17:52):
You can.
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Stephen Porges (01:18:25):
It is, yes.
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Go into that entry way.
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Deb Dana (01:20:15):
Beautiful. So we're standing together. Shoulder to shoulder.
Group (01:20:19):
[Group laughter 00:05:28]
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Deb Dana (01:21:55):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
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Zach Taylor (01:22:52):
And you're both standing there. He's not shielding his eyes as he was before. It's not overstimulating.
He's actually looking out with you by his side.
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experience around dorsal. So yeah, it was a really lovely, powerful moment. And that shift can happen
so quickly because his biology is supporting the difference.
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Zach Taylor (01:25:58):
This happened once. But if we did this again, would you be there next time?
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Deb Dana (01:27:07):
And let's just put it the distance and let's just look at it. And just know that we don't have to do anything
with it right now. We just know it's there.
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Stephen Porges (01:28:21):
See the scary stuff.
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Right now your system is learning, "I don't have to do this, the survivor response anymore. I can bring
my ventral nerve energy down. I have choice. I can look out there and see all those possible connections
and say, not today. And that's perfectly okay."
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People want stuff from you. You're going to disappoint. You're going to get mad. You're going to get in
trouble.
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Stephen Porges (01:32:19):
It's what you've wanted.
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All worthwhile. Yeah.
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Yeah. That's a lovely way to put it. That empowered to, not just be at the mercy of my nervous system,
but to actively engage with my nervous system is a very different experience. You know?
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Module 3: Using Polyvagal Theory with Anxiety, Fears, & Phobias from Past
Experiences
Deb Dana, LCSW
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again? We showed this with the last session, but we clipped it for this one just because it was repetitive.
But could you just describe what you do there?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
There's experiences of anxiety that I have often, related to driving, due to a history of some serious car
accidents that still happen occasionally. I'd like to be able turn down the volume on that.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
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Yes. So there's a map for, if I am driving, and then there's a map if I am passenger and my husband's
driving.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
For me, when I am driving, there's a sense of control because I'm behind the wheel and I'm choosing the
paths that I can take to get to my destination. The sympathetic nervous system feels not as
overwhelming. It feels like it can stay, like keep doing this, like in a more manageable level.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yes, definitely.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Thank you for putting that language to it. Yes. That's what it is.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Then if there's other extenuating things, it may shift or change, but-
Speaker 3 (07:18):
When I am passenger, because I don't want to put all this on my husband, when I am passenger, there's
not that control. The sympathetic nervous system starts to feel over-
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Like it's in control.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so, the logical brain may be telling the story of judging this experience, and it
doesn't matter what my logical brain is saying.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Yeah. I know, right?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Giving myself permission to explore it this way, I can notice my system settling-
Speaker 3 (08:29):
... just in the experimentation.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
So even doing this compared to this, the sympathetic nervous system's not reacting to-
Speaker 3 (08:41):
... to either of this.
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This is an interesting way of assessing a client's problem. The first thing that jumped out at me was that
she told you she'd had a series of car accidents and now she's developed kind of a fear of driving a little
bit, but mostly if you're riding in the car. And rather than asking her, "Oh, when were the accidents? Tell
me about what happened," getting into the story, you didn't do that at all. You just asked her what it felt
like right now. Tell us about your decision making here and the way you assess this problem.
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and you've already started to help her move between the states and know what those movements feel
like.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
It feels really focused and honed in on being in a car. Front passenger seat of the car. So I can be
passenger in the back seat, right?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
And the experience is very, very different.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I'm much more calm.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
It's the more manageable, like this, right?
Speaker 3 (13:31):
It's the-
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Deb Dana (13:31):
Yeah. So when you're driving or when you're in any other seat besides front side passenger, this.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Yeah. Typically, this is...
Speaker 3 (13:49):
As far as related to the experience of driving particularly or...
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah. More generally in my life, I think this is where I like to be. And there's some sympathetic energy
mixed in. There have been times in my life where maybe it's not been like that. I've been more
collapsed. Right?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
But yeah, and this is where I like to be.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
I feel alive there.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
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Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Passenger side-
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah. And it's not the whole time. It may be speed, it may be traffic, it may be high rate, maybe
weather. There's these other-
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yes. Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
This isn't necessarily a cue of safety, but I'm aware sometimes I want to close my eyes, where I'll look
down or try to look out the window at the passing landscape. I think it's my attempt to ensure some
sense of safety. I don't know that it's really a cue of safety. I don't know. I don't know what a cue of
safety... Distance, how much traffic is on the road. That's a cue of safety for me. I think distance
between cars.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
He is a cue of safety. He really, really is. And he's a competent driver. So he will talk or, "Oh, look at that
going down the road." And then like, "Please..." that's telling my system you're not paying attention to
the road.
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Deb Dana (15:36):
Right. Right. So your system gets a little activated in the story is-
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yes. The story picks it.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
And then for him he's saying he is. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Then the stories start going back and forth.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Exactly. Exactly.
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Yeah. It's interesting because since she's a little more comfortable in that slightly activated stay, does
that mean her vagal brake is pretty good at working in that slightly heightened state? And is that why
you're a little more comfortable that she's not going to collapse into dorsal very easily?
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There's one phrase you said at the end of this clip that I think is just worth pulling out. "We have dueling
stories because we have different states." This goes back to the personal profile map, how depending on
what state you're in, you have completely different narratives about how the world is and how you are.
Can you just kind of unpack that a little more and how you used it here?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
That's a great question. At the end of the continuum, far end of the continuum, there's an
expansiveness, and a joy, and openness.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Very relaxed, and alive-
Speaker 3 (22:45):
... at the same time.
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Speaker 3 (22:50):
When I just have a flavor of ventral are the cues that I get that indicate that that's what's turning on and
coming in. My breath, I will notice, that will be one of the things on there. This is my breath seems to
have a nice rhythm to it.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I'll notice ease up as a slight smile.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
They're often the indicators for me.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Yeah. In that moment, I felt like I could feel that. I could feel an awareness of some gratitude in my eyes
or your presence.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Okay, good.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
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Where are we?
Speaker 3 (24:19):
It's interesting. A couple of places would speak to me, the beach with the ocean. And there is something
though about standing on a mountain or hill and just taking in the vista, that really speaks to me too.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Yeah, it's an openness in my breath and around my lungs.
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work of signs that, oh yeah, she really is anchored or has a foothold in ventral. And an important
experience for clients to be able to say, "Oh, here is how it comes alive for me."
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah. It feels like a drop, so something that... So I don't know whether it is repelling or... It feels there's a
suddenness to it.
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It's a sudden drop. So before we make that sudden drop, we want to figure out, how are we going to
stay anchored in ventral and drop down to sympathetic. So what does your system bring you for a
solution to that? What would you like?
Speaker 3 (28:57):
That's a great question. I'm drawing a blank at the moment.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
So going back to when you were saying repelling, when I closed my eyes. In my mind's eye, I could see
sort of a harness-
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:24):
And being attached to some strong tree or something, so that-
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Okay, we're going to do it together, right?
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Speaker 3 (29:44):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
All right.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Yeah, I can feel the edges of it.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yeah. Holding on to the sense of feeling that strength and around my-
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Okay. A little bit of a slip, right?
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Speaker 3 (30:42):
There's this, and it doesn't feel as erratic as I when sharing about it before.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
A little. Right.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Right. But it's still there with this kind of like, "Oh, it's like-
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yeah. Right. Right. Right.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it's a climb, some footholds in the pooling.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Okay. Kind of just really pulling myself back up, and-
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Yep. Beautiful. And now we're back in ventral because we just want to remind your nervous system it
can do this. We can drop to sympathetic and come back to the safety of ventral. Just notice that feeling
now.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Yeah. The smile comes with it.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Yeah. This is...
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stay connected to ventral and take some of that ventral energy with me as I gently descend and see
what's here in sympathetic?
So the first experience of that really is, so how do we? Concretely, what's the image that keeps
you connected to ventral? And for many clients, there is some sort of a tether, a rope, an energy
channel, something, because it is not that we're leaving there and know how to get back. It's that we're
taking the pathway with us. This is a pathway between ventral sympathetic that keeps some of that
energy there, and I'm going with her. You could see that, that thought, "Are you coming with me?" Yes,
I'm going with you because what's our client's experience of going to these dysregulated states? They're
on their own. They're alone. They're in survival. And so, this is a very different experience of using that
principle of co-regulation and going with. So the client is having a new experience of what is it like to be
there? Yeah.
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explore sympathetic but not to get hijacked by it. So yeah. And I liked what you said, that we're working
with the driving phobia, but we've sort of forgotten that we're working with it. It's like we could be
working with anything, which is the beauty of this way of working, that we are not simply working with a
driving phobia. We're working with her nervous system, which will then, as you'll see at the end, help
with this driving phobia. But also has benefits beyond the driving phobia.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Eyes got wide.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
All right. You're going to go with me?
Speaker 3 (37:48):
All right. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Okay. It feels a little deeper. Not as noisy.
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Speaker 3 (38:30):
I want to be safe, safe enough.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
And so, then the voice maybe is, "I'm not feeling safe enough."
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
I can feel the gratitude. I feel tears stinging behind my eyes. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Yeah. Works really hard.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Okay.
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Yeah. So let's climb back up to ventral. Find our place under the tree.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Right. So again, it's this sense of, there's something about feeling the strength-
Speaker 3 (39:47):
... in my arms, right?
Speaker 3 (39:50):
To pull myself back up.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
It's empowering.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
I want to say grounded and shimmer. Shimmer.
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Deb Dana (40:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Shimmer of the sympathetic nervous system, right?
Speaker 3 (40:37):
And it's interesting because more towards my back than my front.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
I can definitely feel the energy, and I can be with it.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
Again about safety and feeling empowered.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Feeling agency maybe. Agency is the word.
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state, which is very interesting. What is going on here that she comes here again and it's a different
experience than the first time?
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Speaker 3 (45:06):
Okay. Okay.
Speaker 3 (45:26):
I'm safe enough. I can trust myself, and I can trust my husband, poor guy.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
We'll figure it out together.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Not a separation. We're coming together.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Yeah. It's a ventral experiences, is the best way that I can describe it, just in the embodied openness. My
shoulders relax.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
The openness in my chest.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Less tension.
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Deb Dana (46:34):
So as you move ahead and you're going to test this out, let's just create a way to really bring this with
you as you leave here and go out into the world and actually get in the passenger side seat of a car.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Happens quite often.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
I think, for me, I'm a little surprised. Then I think, for me, the visual component of taking that with me,
knowing those, exploring those spaces from that visual image where it feels some support of...
Speaker 3 (47:24):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Yeah. It's like I know where to go. There's the map.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
Versus feeling lost.
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Deb Dana (47:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. Yes. So you have your map-
Speaker 3 (47:40):
I do.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Yeah.
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You started as imagery with this, and all of this, and kind of climbing back to ventral with our hands, and
now with the image.
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You can email us directly or call customer service. Just let us know what you think. We're always
wanting to hear this feedback. We hope you learned a lot today, and we'll see you again very soon, as
soon as you choose to start the next video in the next module. Thanks everyone. Thanks Deb.
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Module 4: Polyvagal-Informed Therapy with Clients in Crisis: Working with Grief &
Loss
Deb Dana, LCSW
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because of the work we had done, she dipped into dorsal for moments of time during this ending with
Novia, but she was able to keep coming back to ventral and be present and be with Novia for this ...
what she described as a really beautiful transitioning of Novia from here to wherever she was going
next. So yeah, it does have that beautiful ending to it that I do want listeners to hear.
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and engaging my ventral in a more active way to support her, and something to just look at as we go
through the clips.
Speaker 3 (00:08:53):
Yeah, me too. I think it's the universe holding me, taking care of me, bringing me here.
Speaker 3 (00:09:34):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:09:37):
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I'm dropping into dorsal.
Speaker 3 (00:09:49):
Yeah, I feel it. I feel it. I feel-
Speaker 3 (00:09:55):
Well, the language I've had this morning is, "It's okay."
Speaker 3 (00:09:58):
It's okay.
Speaker 3 (00:10:01):
Okay. Good to know.
Speaker 3 (00:10:06):
Oh, gosh. It's so weird, but I feel it right here.
Speaker 3 (00:10:16):
My smile sort of feels ... I can feel it. And I can feel my heart, too.
Speaker 3 (00:10:33):
Yeah.
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Deb Dana (00:10:38):
I know your ventral, I know how strong it is.
Speaker 3 (00:10:39):
Yeah, it is. It's very strong.
Speaker 3 (00:10:43):
And my dorsal has weakened around this subject.
Speaker 3 (00:10:47):
I don't know if that's the right language.
Speaker 3 (00:10:54):
I'm not as afraid of dorsal as I used to be about this particular subject.
Speaker 3 (00:11:15):
It immediately comes down and I just ... I'm just going to miss her so much.
Speaker 3 (00:11:23):
I can be really grateful for so many things she's brought to my life, but the enmeshment that I have with
her ...
Speaker 3 (00:11:33):
Oh, gosh. The co-regulation. It's ridiculous.
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Deb Dana (00:11:36):
Yeah. I know, I've heard about it for months now.
Speaker 3 (00:11:39):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (00:11:41):
I'm so in love.
Speaker 3 (00:11:43):
And she's in love with me.
Speaker 3 (00:11:47):
She's suffering, and I can cognitively ... I don't know, in a ventral way or not, but I can very peacefully
offer her her next life and do what I need to do for her. And then ...
Speaker 3 (00:12:08):
... shot to hell, right down the black tube of hell of being without her.
Speaker 3 (00:12:24):
Yeah, it sure is.
Speaker 3 (00:12:38):
Immediately.
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Deb Dana (00:12:39):
Good. Good. So it's there for you, whatever way you need it.
Speaker 3 (00:12:44):
I just want to hold it.
Speaker 3 (00:12:52):
I feel like for dear life kind of hold it.
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Deb Dana (00:15:38):
Exactly. Exactly. That's that co-regulation that is exquisitely important in this session, throughout the
whole session. Excuse me. And there was one point where she said she's so enmeshed with her dog, and
I said, "No, co-regulation." But again, it's that ... Because enmeshed, it has a very different feel than co-
regulation, right? So even in those moments whenever you can think, "Oh yes, co-regulation," to bring it
back to ... That's a mammal-to-mammal experience that has been going on for a long time with you.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:16:54):
I said yes, but my system said, "No, don't do that to her."
Speaker 3 (00:16:58):
"Don't do that to her."
Speaker 3 (00:17:01):
"No, it's too bad down there." It's awful.
Speaker 3 (00:17:08):
Please.
Speaker 3 (00:17:27):
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Yeah. I hear, "It's going to be okay."
Speaker 3 (00:17:34):
Yeah. It feels better.
Speaker 3 (00:18:02):
There's an emptiness. I feel like I'm sympathetic fatigued. It's likely from the mourning. [crosstalk
00:18:10]
Speaker 3 (00:18:17):
Yeah. And I got some answers, too. From the vet, I just have some clarity about what's going to happen.
That uncertainty was ... Oh my God, my sympathetic. My heart was pounding out of my chest. I
completely lost the ability to be reasonable, and the fear just got me.
Speaker 3 (00:18:45):
Yeah, it did. Yeah, it actually ...
Speaker 3 (00:18:48):
Just like that.
Speaker 3 (00:18:48):
Like a window shut.
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Yeah, how nice.
Speaker 3 (00:18:52):
The curtain just goes down from the wind.
Speaker 3 (00:18:59):
Yeah, "I'm done."
Speaker 3 (00:19:02):
"I'm done." And ventral's like, "Okay, good, because you also have lovely things in your life and it's going
to be okay." I'm in dorsal.
Speaker 3 (00:19:21):
That's a hard one.
Speaker 3 (00:19:22):
That's just a hard one. I want it to go and it just won't. Just as soon as you said it, it's like, "No thank
you."
Speaker 3 (00:19:31):
"No thank you. I'm all set."
Speaker 3 (00:19:45):
Okay. Got a deal.
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Deb Dana (00:19:46):
Okay. So let's go. Let's go to dorsal.
Speaker 3 (00:19:49):
Oh, God. I'm like, "No."
Speaker 3 (00:20:01):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (00:20:03):
Yeah. I can do this.
Speaker 3 (00:20:18):
My whole body just relaxed.
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feel how anchored I am in ventral and how unwavering that energy is for her and that it's perfectly safe
for us to go visit dorsal together. Again-
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Yeah. And when you mentioned ... Other clients you just take there and you stay there a while, but you
made this clinical judgment that we're just going to dip the toe in, we're just going to go there and
bounce right back. She was able to do that and she ended this clip with this kind of sigh and everything
sort of released. What did that tell you?
Speaker 3 (00:26:38):
Just empty. Just empty.
Speaker 3 (00:26:57):
It's not so bad.
Speaker 3 (00:26:57):
No.
Speaker 3 (00:27:05):
And things change. Or life goes on. There's something there.
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Speaker 3 (00:27:24):
Yeah. Transitions were a real problem for me as a kid. They were very dangerous.
Speaker 3 (00:27:33):
They were dangerous.
Speaker 3 (00:27:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:28:02):
It just feels different instantly. Well, because it doesn't make sense anymore. There's nothing dangerous
about honoring my dog's life. And practically speaking, there is a new baby in the family. There's a
seven-month-old baby that's going to be climbing on top of me, getting me into ventral. But that
dangerous part, it's like, "I won't get off the couch."
Speaker 3 (00:28:38):
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yep.
Speaker 3 (00:28:43):
Yeah. It's the same. It's the same thing around dating or having a relationship. The breakups just ruin
me, even though they're well intended and kind and even loving. It's just the endings are just dangerous
and just floods me and ... collapsing.
Speaker 3 (00:29:14):
Yeah.
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Deb Dana (00:29:15):
That even though you do it from a regulated place, the aftermath takes you right to dorsal.
Speaker 3 (00:29:20):
It's exhausting.
Speaker 3 (00:29:21):
It's exhausting. And it's just me. Or it has been just me.
Speaker 3 (00:29:30):
It has been just me, yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:29:37):
It just feels like a different story.
Speaker 3 (00:29:58):
I can feel literally my system doing the changing.
Speaker 3 (00:30:05):
There's easy. There's flowers in my heart right now.
Speaker 3 (00:30:11):
It's painful, but it's not scary and dangerous.
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Right. So let's ...
Speaker 3 (00:30:15):
Yes. I see that.
Speaker 3 (00:30:48):
It's so different.
Speaker 3 (00:31:04):
It's literally life altering because it's really hard to carry around scary and dangerous all the time.
Speaker 3 (00:31:15):
It's exhausting to constantly look for safety, constantly looking for cues of safety when all you know is
cues of danger. And everything looks like cues ... It only looks like danger all the time, so it's hard to go,
"Retrain, retrain, retrain, retrain."
Speaker 3 (00:31:37):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (00:31:45):
Yep.
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her all her life, which for her, part of it is around the danger of transitions. What are you seeing in this
clip here?
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Speaker 3 (00:35:17):
It's not going any further. I'm not triggering a move.
Speaker 3 (00:36:04):
That wasn't so bad.
Speaker 3 (00:36:12):
Yeah, so I literally sort of imagined my chakras.
Speaker 3 (00:36:19):
And then there literally is ... There's a floor that's black, and then there's a tube that, like ...
Speaker 3 (00:36:32):
I didn't go down the tube this last time.
Speaker 3 (00:36:38):
I was in the tube at the beginning, and now I just went to the floor and it was like a ballerina, just
landing, pliéing, and ... we're going to go back up.
Speaker 3 (00:36:53):
Okay.
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Deb Dana (00:36:58):
We'll be the ballerina. We'll leap and we go down through sympathetic and we find the floor of dorsal,
and then we rise.
Speaker 3 (00:37:07):
My ballerina wants to now hip hop and roll around on the black floor ...
Speaker 3 (00:37:14):
... because she knows she's like, "No, this ... can't just leave that there."
Speaker 3 (00:37:19):
"You've got to experience this sadness."
Speaker 3 (00:37:25):
And then she's going to come up again.
Speaker 3 (00:37:30):
Yeah, I guess so.
Speaker 3 (00:37:33):
Yeah, I guess so.
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Speaker 3 (00:38:18):
It feels more flexible. More doable.
Speaker 3 (00:40:56):
It'll be so interesting and profound, I think, for me to be away from her because my system is, "Where's
Novia? How's Novia? Where's Novia? How's Novia?" for nine years.
Speaker 3 (00:41:14):
"Where's Novia? How's Novs?" So there's a bit of relief, right?
Speaker 3 (00:41:23):
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Where it's like I'm not chained to anything. And then there's, like, "No."
Speaker 3 (00:41:55):
Yeah. I just love that, the place that she's okay, because she's rarely been okay.
Speaker 3 (00:42:05):
And it's been on me to make sure she's okay and I've chosen that. But you're never really secure about
that. I think that's where the relief is, just knowing. Knowing that she's okay. Yeah, that's going to be
weird.
Speaker 3 (00:42:25):
No. I have a feeling that it's going to collapse a little bit, right?
Speaker 3 (00:42:32):
It's going to collapse a little bit, and I don't think I'm going to really understand that everything can be
okay in my life and that there's no danger.
Speaker 3 (00:42:45):
That's incredible. I don't know what that is. I've learned a little bit.
Speaker 3 (00:42:52):
I am. There's no doubt about it. But boy, wow.
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I remember the last time we did a session in the training and it was this really new idea around, "Wow,
I'm choosing a transition and it's a safe one."
Speaker 3 (00:43:07):
It's going from one good thing to even a better thing. When's that happen? That's crazy.
Speaker 3 (00:43:28):
Yeah, that's interesting. Sad, painful, and safe. I don't think I've ever said those three words together.
Speaker 3 (00:43:38):
We just saw. They're cut off. There ain't no tube down there anymore.
Speaker 3 (00:44:02):
Oh, God. Right. Yeah. And I was alone. There's such a big thing about ... That tube is not big enough for
anyone but me.
Speaker 3 (00:44:14):
I was the only one.
Speaker 3 (00:44:16):
And I had to wait until my system would be like, "All right, [Chewy 00:44:19]. Pull up your bootstraps.
Let's do it again. Now I don't have to do that alone. There's no tube.
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There's no tube, so you're not stuck in there alone. And look around your world inside there and see the
people who are there with you. Just let your nervous system connect with other nervous systems and
feel that safety. With mine, with the people from the training, with your friends.
Speaker 3 (00:44:51):
Oh God, I love them.
Speaker 3 (00:44:56):
It's totally different.
Speaker 3 (00:45:00):
There's movement, so it brings me to sympathetic.
Speaker 3 (00:45:07):
Yes. Oh, definitely. Definitely. I think, yeah, that happened this morning when I called a friend and told
her what was happening, and it just ... her being there. Nothing got solved in that phone call, but just
her being with me.
Speaker 3 (00:45:39):
That's just so different to move through life in that way. It feels so much less risky. Right?
Speaker 3 (00:45:53):
There just is.
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Speaker 3 (00:46:06):
Yeah, totally. Yeah. A lot of my Buddhist principles are showing up for me, as well.
Speaker 3 (00:46:24):
Impermanence, and death and dying is just part of the path.
Speaker 3 (00:47:11):
I love my system.
Speaker 3 (00:47:15):
She's so good. She's just there for me.
Speaker 3 (00:47:31):
She's so grateful that I have this simple map, because it just doesn't only make sense. It's just I can
literally feel the visceral changes in my body as you're guiding me. And like my porch swing, I just want
to stay there.
Speaker 3 (00:48:03):
May it be so.
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all these different situations. Very interesting, this way of working with the nervous system rather than
the specific stories or events. What do you see emerging here around transitions?
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Deb Dana (00:52:36):
Before we end, what do you need to be able to hold on to this tonight, tomorrow? Just explore that.
What would help to stay anchored in this knowing?
Speaker 3 (00:52:52):
I feel full, and I was planning on doing some journaling this afternoon and making sure that I really just
savor time with my little girl. It's playing with all her friends for a few days and I wanted to really connect
with Nov ...
Speaker 3 (00:53:16):
... and be in my system and write in my journals and bawl my eyes out and just do whatever feels right.
Speaker 3 (00:53:40):
Just cuddling Novia.
Speaker 3 (00:53:42):
Just being on the couch and really cuddling.
Speaker 3 (00:53:45):
We do face to face.
Speaker 3 (00:53:47):
So whether her face in my ... it doesn't matter.
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Speaker 3 (00:53:50):
We're just face to face.
Speaker 3 (00:53:52):
We also hold paws.
Speaker 3 (00:53:54):
I know, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (00:54:20):
I wish for myself to be grateful for myself and proud of myself that I did everything I could and have
been a good mom.
Speaker 3 (00:54:33):
Because I've been really hard on myself around that.
Speaker 3 (00:54:38):
And I hope that comes up. I want to give myself a break.
Speaker 3 (00:54:58):
Yeah. Okay.
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Speaker 3 (00:55:09):
Yeah. I've got to work on that doubt. It's so stupid.
Speaker 3 (00:55:25):
I don't know. I think it's sort of like, "You're not good enough," doubt, but I just don't buy into that.
Speaker 3 (00:55:32):
Somewhere.
Speaker 3 (00:55:42):
You know what? That's just very, very old stuff wanting some approval and saying that I'm a good kid.
Speaker 3 (00:55:55):
Yeah. That's old stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:56:14):
Yeah, that felt totally like ventral. Yeah. That love for her, yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:56:28):
Yeah.
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So Deb, this is a great example of closing up a fairly complicated and raw session, and you close it out by
asking her a few questions. Number one, how are you going to take this with you? What are the
takeaways here? Let's discuss that a little bit.
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Yeah. I'm glad that we included this session in the series. I think it was a powerful session, and it really
shows how working with a client who is a complex trauma survivor can go in lots of different directions
and can have dysregulation, regulation, some humor, some intense emotion, everything all rolled into
one, and can end in a place that feels safe and regulating. So however long the session was ... an hour or
something in total ... a lot happened, and client is taking away ... is now inhabiting a new nervous
system, a nervous system that is shaped in some new way. Yeah.
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Module 5: A Re-Cap and Analysis of the Three Polyvagal-Informed Therapy
Sessions
Deb Dana, LCSW and Steve Porges PhD
Zach Taylor (00:18):
Welcome everybody to our final session of the Psychotherapy Networkers Polyvagal Informed Master
Class. And I'm so delighted to be here this morning with Deb Dana, who has been guiding us through her
sessions as well as Steve Porges, the originator of the Polyvagal Theory. Steve and Deb, welcome to both
of you, welcome back.
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It's interesting with clients in the beginning, because they might look at you like, "No, no. That's
not what I want to do." You have to use the trust in the therapeutical relationship to invite that to
happen. But I think, as you saw in the demos, as soon as you start diving into that, a client is really
curious about how their system works. And they forget about that problem as they begin to explore
their own system. And then, as the problem comes back into view, it's very different. It's a very different
experience for them. I would just encourage therapists to give it a try. And I think you'll see that it's a
pretty ... I don't like to say magical. But it has that feel to it sometimes, that wow, something very
interesting has happened.
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Steve Porges (07:35):
Physiological state. And I'm saying that, even if we [inaudible 00:07:39] and have a real commitment to
learning theory as our basis for therapy, we have to incorporate physiological state in the model. I would
say the most obvious one would be something like behavior modification. And you have to ask questions
with what population is it least effective. It's least effective when people have severe behavioral
regulation issues, meaning that their physiological states that are not responding to punishment or
reward. And that is a true SOR model. If behavior modification incorporate an understanding of
physiological state, it would work ... the first mode of intervention would be onto the physiological
state. And this does not mean pharmaceutical manipulations of physiological state, it means co-
regulation, cues of safety, enabling the body to go out of a state of defense.
Once the body is out of that state of defense, then the portals are open for S-R relationships to
be built. The issue with trauma, is a really, I would say very difficult and profound one, because the
conditioning or learning is so visceral that it's a ... I like to equate it to single trial learning and the ones
that people might know about are taste aversion. You eat something once and you're nauseous. And it's
very resistant to extinction. Trauma has some of these same features, because they're very adaptive in
survival. And we have to understand that if we can go in manipulate the physiological state through a
co-regulation, through breathing, through cues of an awareness of one's own body, then the S -R
relationships become much more malleable. And that's really part of what therapy is about. I don't see
Polyvagal Theory as contradictory to learning theory, I see it as a way of informing and optimizing S-R
relationships.
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Deb Dana (12:04):
For me, when I'm working with clients, I'm trying to help them stay really connected to the autonomic
nervous system. And understand that this is their biology that is enacting a response, is sending them a
message, that we want to listen to the system. And you'll find when clients begin to connect with their
system, in that way you might even hear some of them talk that way. In the demos, they talk about their
system. They catch on fairly quickly to that, that there's a real release of shame and self criticism that it
becomes a biological response, an adaptive survivor response, a system response, rather than
something that they're choosing to do, a cognitive experience.
And for me, working in this Polyvagal informed way, keeping the focus of attention on the
nervous system is the important piece. Then, clients begin to look through the lens of the nervous
system and they begin to talk about their system and hear the story their system is telling them. Then,
they connect with their system. Just as in many of the demos, you saw that their system and my system
were in connection and yes, my client and I are in connection. But, our systems are in connection, which
is a different embodied experience. And I think that was important to bring out as well in the sessions.
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Zach Taylor (17:02):
That's good. That leads to my next question and that's something Deb's said, I think, in each session.
And she said before that story follows state. I think one way she put it, in one of the sessions, we have
dueling stories because we have dueling states. I think that was in the third session. Let's talk a little
about this, because personally I continue to be amazed at how when I'm in a different state, I'm almost
a different person sometimes. And just to know ... there's so much shame wrapped around that
sometimes for some people. So much shame around, it's like, "Why can't I just behave the way I want to
behave, why can't I think the way I want to think and why can't I act the way I want to act right now? As
soon as I'm around that person, as soon as I'm in this situation, as soon as I'm triggered I think
completely differently, I act completely differently." Let's talk a little bit more about Deb, how you
remove shame and work with and teach clients about how they have different stories for different
states.
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And the language Deb seems to use around that is, let's bring ventral with us. I've heard it a few
different ways, but let's see if we can bring some ventral energy to the sympathetic state. Let's see if we
can bring ventral to the dorsal state. I'm wondering, is this just language or what's going on
physiologically?
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educate individuals to become more aware of the bodily reactions and more respectful of both the
positive attributes that it gives to enable interactions. But, also these unique and powerful defensive
strategies that are wired into it, that often are lifesaving at times. It can interfere with co-regulation if
the system is literally stuck in these defensive modes.
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because of their trauma history. And that's interesting in itself, it means that they can take part of the
ventral with them, but not with another human being because the associations. This is now a learning
theory construct of trust being violated by a human created such a profound retuning in their autonomic
reactivity and that they can be safe or trust. The core point of being able to take ventral with you, is the
construct of safety and trust.
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What I like to work with my clients with, which speaks to what you were talking about is, there's a
difference between being alert which has some ventral component to it and alarmed, which is your
sympathetic nervous system going into it's survival state. It's lovely to play with that subtle difference
and feel it.
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Deb Dana (38:44):
I think for me, when I do that it's really this offering my clients to have an autonomic experience that
they haven't had, or have not often had. That particular client talked about how everything is dangerous
growing up. Not a lot of autonomic connections that were safe, not a lot of experiences of feeling I can
trust this person that I'm with to keep me safe. Not only to not harm me, but to keep me safe. Both
experiences are needed. She probably felt that I was not a danger to her. But I also needed her to feel
that I was a safe restorative resource for her. And that was the nervous system to nervous system
experience. And then offering that experience, she got to taste what that was like. And you could see
that, her nervous system taking that in and beginning to shift in really interesting ways, just from tho se
moments of feeling that what I say is this predictable ongoing ventral holding of clients
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rates are 60 to 80 beats per minute. It's more like a governor, it's keeping our heart at a slower rate, a
more comfortable rate, a more calming rate. But the vagal brake has this capacity to be removed
rapidly, instantaneously, which is how we could adjust our metabolic demands if we need to move
without stimulating the sympathetics. Because the sympathetics are in a sense a l ittle more sloppy, they
start recruiting their own chemical changes and we could functionally lose it. Meaning we go into
tantrums or get very angry. A person with a good vagal brake is both resilient and well regulated.
We have to think of this vagal brake as coming on and off as awe adjust to the demands of our
context. A person with a good vagal brake, a functional vagal brake, they're going to adjust the cardiac
output, their heart rate, primarily through that vagal brake through the whole day. And they won't have
the consequences of the sympathetic nervous system coming onboard.
In my research, we've also come up with another metric, which I call vagal efficiency. And that's
how effective and reliable that vagal brake is. You might have a strong vagal brake, but it may be very
unreliable. What we're looking at is a linear relationship between the expression of that vagal brake and
the heart rate. It's just telling us how efficient moving that brake on and off. Your metaphor of skiing and
adjusting it, in our own mind as you describe it, it sounds like a very efficient vagal brake.
A person who may be in Deb's clinic or office, may not have that efficient vagal brake because
they haven't really recruited it. And they haven't gone through the sufficient numbers of neural
exercises for the system to be working, because they really want to push it to the side and get into
defense. That's why it has to be done slower. The metaphors may be different. They may not be moving
down a ski slope,[inaudible 00:46:07] the sails, the winds, or the ability to pull a brake. And they have
this sense of confidence that it doesn't work and Stop.
But the vagal break is really how we keep calm. And it's also the mechanisms through which we
link the neuro regulation of our face and our voice to our heart. It's through that ventral vagal pathway
and when it's really communicating through the silent [inaudible 00:46:38] our heart slows up, calms us
down. If you go into other techniques like slow exhalation, that will recruit the vagal brake. And of
course when people get anxious, they take a deep breath where they push their diaphragm down and
they exhale slowly. And that enables that vagal break to be calmly. When people sing, they're exhaling
slowly.
We've also may find in a clinical situation, people may just start wanting to talk and keep talking
and talking and talking. But as they increase the duration of their phrases, they're using available break.
In a sense, the expelling of lots of words that may be meaningless, may have a very adaptive function in
calming the client. We need to witness not really what they're saying, but in a sense, the neuro
biological consequence of their expressions.
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Steve Porges (48:47):
Well, there's another important point that is embedded in your response and that is visualization. And
we really haven't emphasized too much top down influence on the vagal break. But if we, in a sense, p ut
electrodes and monitor people's heart rates as they visualize events, whether they're safe exuberant
events or dangerous events, or even visualizing being on a roller coaster, which has a degree of safety
and also visual challenge, you'll get [inaudible 00:49:16] reaction. The top down as well as bottom up is
great in fact. And part of therapy is, in a sense, empowering the top down to be a container for this
physiological reactivity.
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