An Interview with James Tenney

Author(s): Brian Belet and James Tenney

Source: Perspectives of New Music, Vol. 25, No. 1/2, 25th Anniversary Issue (Winter -
Summer, 1987), pp. 459-466
Published by: Perspectives of New Music
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 A Tributeto JamesTenney 459

AN INTERVIEWwrH JAMESTENNEY*

BRIANBELET

IN DECEMBER OF 1985 I visitedJames Tenneyat his home in Toronto.I hopedto

clarifythefocusof mydoctoraldissertation on Tenney'srecentcompositions, discuss
musicwithhimandgettoknowhimbetterasa composer, theorist,and human being.By
thetimeI leftToronto myhopeshadbeenfuifiled toa csiderble degree.
My visitcoincided witha dressrehearsal andperfrmance ofthefirstsixteenstudiesof
his newcomposition Changes: 64 Studies for Six Harps. The concertalo included
threelecturesandanotherworkfor multipleharps-Postcardfrom Heaven, byJohn
Cage-andBenJohnston's StringQartet No. 5. All threecomposerswerepresentfor the
concertandgaveprefatory remarks about theircopositions.
In additionto attendingthe dressrehearsal and concert,I spenttwoeveningswith
Tenneydiscussing music and his recentcompositions. Whatfollowsis a transcriptionof
sectionsofourconversation. All itemsplacedwithinbrackets aremyowninterpolations
andclarifications.
Pd liketobeginbyaskingyouaboutyouraesthetics andphilosophy of music.In this
worldthatveryseriously doesn'tneedanyofus, whydoyoucompose?
Curiosity,I think, is the strongestmotivatingforceof almosteverythingI do.
Like yourselfI have a kind of passionateinterestin science. (When I say "like
yourself' I'm assumingthat from your earlierletters.)I'm fascinatedby science
and I think I spend more time readingabout mattersscientificthan I do reading
about music.And the way I see it as a consistencyis that they aretwo manifesta-
tions of a curiosity.I often think about the piecesthat I compose: I write them
becauseI want to know what they aregoing to sound like.
That'sto put it positively.Maybeit could be articulatedeven morecarefullyif
I wereto saysome ofthe thingsthatit's not. It's not self-expression,asfarasI'm
concerned.It's not communicationeither,not forme. Communicationis some-
thing that I certainlydo with the music-afterwards,that is. I wantother people
to hearit. I enjoy havingother people hearit again,and so forth, but I'm not
communicatingsomething to them when I write a piece of music. That's an
irrelevantnotion for me. So, I sometimesthink that what I am doing is none of
the thingsthat it used to be that musicwas doing, but rather,satisfyingmy curi-
osity, or tryingto.
Regarding communication in a nineteenth-centurymanner,canyounotbeattacked
the
by criticsfor noring thefunction of music?

*JamesTenney, BrianBelet.
460 Perspectives of New Music

Well, it's too easy to attackthe critics,but I think they're a hundredyears

behind in terms of what it's all about. They haven't been able to learnwhat
we're doing.
What'stheroleofthecomposer in thisworldsociety?
Well, that'sa more difficultquestionto answer,but it's an extremelyimpor-
tant one. It's more difficultbecauseit's so hardto see a clearanswer.Music, for
me, is moreakinto philosophyor mathematicsthan it is to entertainment.And,
whateverthe role of the philosopheror the mathematicianis in societymay be
the roleof the composer.
If I'm satisfyingmy own curiosityby makingsome music of a certainkind,
then it seemslikelyto me that therewill be otherswhose curiosityis alsosatisfied
by the music. Now, maybecuriosityis too simple, but I'm usingit as a term to
cover a lot of things there. Whateverit is; that need to know, that need to
understand,that need to perceivemore of these ideas .... And there will be
othersthat want that.
So I don't know what the role of the composeris. But what do I get from
CharlesIvesor Varese,or anyof the composerswho havebeen veryimportantto
me?I get a lot. And I think this would be an awfullycruelworld if that wasn't
there, availableto me. I'm gratefulthat they existed. I'm gratefulthat they did
theirwork, becauseit gives me something. But I haven't been ableto translate
allof that yet into a clearkind of definitionof the roleof the composer.
Maybeit's notreallypossible to makea cleartextbook definitionof thisrole.I inten-
these
tionallyvoice questionsas a criticmh btvoice them asfriendlyquestions notas
attackingquestions.
Right. Sometimes I have had thoughts of other frames of mind-other
momentswhen it comes at me somewhatdifferently.I thinkwe're involvedin a
processof evolution of our powersof perception.Something'sgoing on in the
human capacitiesfor hearingand perception, and the artssomehow relateto
that. And I see it evolving, it's perfectlyclearthat it's evolving. How, I'm not
sure. That is, it almostseems to happenin mysteriouswaysthat I don't under-
standfroma scientificstandpoint.Forexample,why is it thata studentensemble
can pick up the music now for PierrotLunaireand rehearseit for a couple of
weeks and put on a performanceof it that is passable,when the firsttime it was
done, with the composer'sdirection,it took so many rehearsals? Something's
going on there. We'reevolving.To what end?I'm not sure.Why?I'm not sure.
I'd liketospecifically
discuss
youruseof microtones. First,howdoyoufeelaboutthe
terms"microtone" and "microtonal music"?
Well, "microtone" sort of can't be avoided. It's inadequate in a lot of
respectsbecauseof implicationsthat don't alwaysapply. It can be misleading
almosteverytime you use it. I tryto use it when I'm referringto the smallnessof
the intervalsthat may be involvedin a given situation.In my own writings,if I
don't mean to specificallyreferto the smallnessof the intervals,then I don't use
it. Then I will referto the existenceof a specificinterval.
 A Tributeto JamesTenney 461

So, I guessmy firstansweris not quite as criticalof it as I reallyam, and will

end up being. That is, I don't use the term "microtone" except in a restricted
way, a way that is etymologicallymore accurate.I used the term yesterdaywith
Ben [Johnston]. Specifically,I was talking about my harp piece [Changes].2
When listeningto the harp piece, one very seldom hears"microtones" even
though thereareseventy-twopitchesin eachoctave. It's organizedin sucha way
that you very seldom hearadjacentpitches in that scale, so the sense of small
intervalsis not veryprominent.
Also, a term that you have used in your letters relatesto this: the phrase
"non-temperedsystems." Around Ben that's an appropriateterm. In relation
to my work, it isn't as applicablebecauseI have written for temperedsystems
just as often as for non-temperedsystems.
But the issueis not fundamentally"just" versus"tempered"in my mind. I
believe it is for Ben, as it was for Partch. Fundamentally,for me, the issue is
harmony.And, to go anywherewith harmonyleadstowardsnew tuning sys-
tems. Not just becausea new tuning system will give us new harmonies,but
ratherbecause we need new tuning systems to give us some other just rela-
tionships. I think of the just relationshipsas referentialones. They'reas crucial
and essentialas they were for Partch,or as they arefor Ben. However, I also see
temperedsystemsas perfectlyviablewaysof working.In fact, that'sjust reality,
if it's not tempered,it's a human being approximatinga just notation, which is
no differentin practice.It's different,but there'slots of overlap.
This is a tremendous adventure. One of the exciting things about being
involved with new tuning systems is that it is relativelynew, again. And,
although there are more and more people workingin this area,it's still in that
experimentalstage.It's not stuck,it hasn'tbecome rigid.And I reallyam gladof
that. I'm also glad that nobody has found a perfectnotation, becausethen I'd
feel compelledto use it. I'm gladBen's got his, which does a certainthing, and
does it beautifully.I've used several,dependingon the natureof the piece. It's
an exciting situation, because these are notations that are innate to the com-
posers,but they'renot just arbitrary personalsignatures.Eachof us hasthought
throughthe problemsandworkedout a solutionthatseemsto workforus. And
eachaccomplishescertainthings, maybebetterthan another'sbecauseyou have
developedit for your own work.
So, sinceCage'srevolution,we havea situationnow wherenotationis a com-
positionalvariable.3And now intonationis a compositionalvariable.
Howdoyou usethe term "microtone" In yourpiecesthat are "micro-
specifically?
tonal,"doyouhaveanygeneral definition,oris itpiecebypiece?
It variesfrom piece to piece, becausetherearedifferentemphases.Severalof
my pieces are basedon the harmonicseries.In the firstpiece that I remember
that uses the harmonicseries,about 1972, I hardlyused any specialnotation at
all.41was usinga verycasualapproximationof the harmonicseries.I can't abide
that anymore,and I'm almostembarrassedto look and see what I was doing in
1972. I was reallycarelessabout it.
462 of NewMusic
Perspectives

Whatareyourthoughtsnowregarding harmonicoranizationandtherelationship
ofjust and tepered interals?For example,howaretheseideashandledinyourrecent
composition Changes?
My hypothesisis that our earswill interpretthingsin the simplestway possi-
ble. Given a set of pitches, we will interpretthem in the simplestway possible.
This can be translatedinto harmonicspace terms by sayingthat it will be the
most compactarrangementin harmonicspace. Well, I think compactness,in
that sense, could be measuredsomehow, and could be made very explicitby
speakingof the sum of harmonicdistancesamong these variouspoints. So you
could go througha pieceand say, "Alright,we've heardin the beginningof the
piece two pitches. You take the simplestratiorepresentationof that interval-
tempered.Now we hearthe third pitch. What specific,rationalintonationfor
thatapproximatepitchwillgive us the simplestconfigurationin harmonicspace,
the most compactconfigurationin harmonicspace?Let's callit that." And then
analyze the music on that basis. It leads to some very interestingharmonic
discoveries.
Evenif thatmeans,onceyouhavethethirdpitch,re-evaluating thefirsttwopitches?
I believeso. Of course, you have to do that with a lot of sensitivitytowards
how we hearand to what extent we referbackwards,and reviseour interpreta-
tions aswe go on. The notion is thatwe're going to interpretit, again,as simply
as possible.This processcould be developedinto an analyticaltool.
The next piece I'd like to work on would be much simpler,much more ele-
gant. Elegant,because I would like to just let the music freely move in har-
monic space according to certain tendencies. Harmonic space is not
symmetrical.It clearlyhas an up and down. In each dimension, in fact, except
between the octaves, there's an asymmetry,which is what leadsto roots and
tonics. And moving to the left along that three-to-twodimensionis a verydif-
ferentmannerfrom moving to the right. It's as if one is uphill and the other is
downhill. And what I would like to do in the next piece is just let it move
freelydownhill. Because,to my ear, those downhill progressionsare the ones
that sound,I guess, because they reallypresent new information. When you
move uphill you're moving into a regionwhich you're alreadyexpressingwith
the harmonicseries,which is alreadypresent. But when you move downhill,
you're alwaysmoving into an areathat containswhere you've been. The har-
monic structurecould move down a majorthird. And that, to my ear,is only a
little less powerful than down a fifth. That's a strong harmonicprogression.
The piece could be designedto just drift, as though in a responseto a magnetic
field, or a gravitationalfield that was drawingit downwards-a random walk
but with the gravitationalfield pulling it in that direction. It would be quite
natural.Of course, this exampleof the pitch-classprojectionis presented[here]
in only two dimensions. There's a downwards directionalityin the other
dimensions, too. It's alwayslike from 3:2 to 1:1, and 5:4 to 1:1, or from 1:1
down to 4:3-moving in the subharmonicdirection.There is a power in that
 A Tributeto JamesTenney 463

P5
A

, "uphill"

> M3
"downhill. /

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EXAMPLE 1: A PORTION OF HARMONIC SPACE

DEPICTED IN A 3,5 TWO-DIMENSIONAL LATTICE
464 of NewMusic
Perspectives

direction.It, itself, is new. That, to me, explainsthe sense of what Schonberg

callsstrongroot progressions.5
Incidentally,in my writings, the word "hierarchy"is often used-I don't
like it any more. I want to replaceit with the word "holarchy." Because, in
looking up the etymology of hierarchy,it has to do with orderingsof power
and value. And I don't perceivewhat I was callingthese hierarchicalformal
structuresas havingto do with power or value. They're simply hierarchiesof
inclusion.So, a better term would be "holarchy,"which means an organiza-
tion of wholes; an organizationof gestaltunits.6
So, it's not going to actually, literally happen, but I'd like to go back
twenty-fiveyearsand examineeverythingI've everwritten, and whereverI've
used that word hierarchy,I wish I could replaceit with holarchy.
Are thereanygeneralorglobalaspects of Changesthatyou'dliketo mention?
Well, there is one other thing I suppose I could mention about it. Some of
the motivationfor doing the piece goes back to the fact that it's dedicatedto
Udo Kasemets.7And I thought of it from the beginningas havingsomewhat
to do with this energeticcomposer.The way it relatesis that I triedto organize
the piece so that therewere as few arbitrarydecisionsas possibleinvolvedwith
these studies. I wanted to find a way to let the hexagramsfrom the I Ching
define as much as possible.8For example,I had a formulain the programfor
figuringout the durationof the study. Why?I also had a formulafor defining
somethingabout the averageverticaldensityfor each study. Why-again? The
answeris that I wanted the formulasto referonly to things that have already
been determinedby the hexagramitself.Again, these were things that still had
to be determined,so I workedout a way that seemed reasonable,that different
statisticalpropertiesin the studiesmight suggestdifferentoperations.A denser
texture would then be applied to a shorterstudy, and a sparsertexture to a
longer study. And similarlywith verticaldensity, certain propertiesalready
determinedby the hexagramwould then, in turn, determinethe generalaver-
age verticaldensity.The ideawas to makeit some kind ofsyergeticmechanism,
all somehow self-determining.9

NOTES

1. My warmestthanks are due to JamesTenney for sharinghis thoughts on

music with me and for welcoming me into his home and allowing me
accessto his scores.Thanksare also due to Ben Johnston, who firstintro-
duced me to the work of JamesTenney; to LarryPolansky, who gener-
ously shared his Tenney materials with me during an earlier trip to
 A Tributeto JamesTenney 465

Oakland; and to the University of Illinois Graduate College, which

financed part of the travel expenses to Toronto through a Dissertation
ResearchGrant.
2. Changes:64 Studies for SixHarps(1985): each harp,diatonicallytemperedin
relation to itself, is tuned a sixth of a semitone apart from the adjacent
harps,thus creatinga temperedmacropitch set of seventy-twopitchesper
octave, which allowsfor very close approximationof all the importantjust
intervalswithin the 11-limit (i.e., just frequencyvalueswhose ratioscan be
representedwith no prime numbers largerthan eleven). The tempered
majorthirdin the 72-set is three cents off when comparedto the just ratio
of 5:4 (383.3 c. vs. 386.3 c., respectively),the temperedperfectfifth and
minor seventh are two cents off when compared to their respectivejust
ratiosof 3:2 and 7:4, and the temperedaugmentedfourth is only one cent
off when comparedto the just ratioof 11:8. It is the composer'sintention
to explore the harmonicaspectsof this tempered tuning system through
this composition. For more information,see Tenney's own articleabout
this piece, in this issue.
3. Cage'srevolutionis markedby the compositionof Musicof Changes(1951)
for solo piano. This work marksCage's first compositionaluse of chance
procedures(via the I Ching). Cage has written on the significanceof this
step:

It is thus possible to make a musicalcomposition the continuity of

which is freeof individualtasteand memory (psychology)and also of
the literatureand "traditions" of the art.... Valuejudgments are
not in the nature of this work as regardseither composition, per-
formance,or listening.The ideaof relation(the idea:2) beingabsent,
anything(the idea: 1) may happen. A "mistake"is besidethe point,
for once anythinghappensit authenticallyis.

John Cage, "Composition:To Describethe Processof Composi-

tion Used in Music of Changesand ImaginaryLandscape No. 4," in
Silence(Middletown, CT: WesleyanUniversityPress, 1961), 59.
4. Clangfor orchestraandQuintext(especiallymovement 5), 1972.
5. Sch6nberg describesstrong root progressionsas those progressionsthat
resultin greatchangesin chord constitution. For example,a root progres-
sion of up a perfectfourth (or down a perfectfifth) createsa situationin
which the root of the first chord is degraded to the fifth of the second
chord; a root progressionof down a third createsa situationin which the
root of the firstchord is furtherdegradedto the thirdof the second chord.
466 of NewMusic
Perspectives

Both of these moves are termed strong root progressions.In contrast,the

progressionsof down a perfectfourth (or up a perfectfifth) and up a third
aretermedweak progressionsbecausethey promote inferiortones, that is,
the fifth of the firstchord becomes the root of the second chord, and the
thirdof the firstchord becomes the root of the second chord, respectively.
The progressionsof either up or down a second are termed superstrong
progressionsbecause the first chord is entirelyeliminatedby the tones of
the second chord. ArnoldSchoenberg,Structural Functions
ofHarmony,rev.
ed. (New York:W. W. Norton & Co., Inc., 1969), Chapter2, "Principles
of Harmony," 6-9.
6. Tenney defines "gestalt units," or more accurately, "temporal gestalt
units" (TGs)as structurednetworksof moments, incidents,episodes,peri-
ods, etc., that areorganizedon severalhierarchical
levels.Time is therefore
viewed as a structuralnetwork of hierarchicalevents rather than as an
undifferentiatedcontinuum as defined in theoretical physics. The aural
boundariesof a TG are simply its beginning and end; a TG is described
(and comparedto other TGs) by its parametricstates, topologicalshape,
and structureof anyinterior,lower-levelTGs. Detaileddescriptionsof TGs
can be found in Tenney'spaper "[Hierarchical]TemporalGestaltPercep-
tion in Music [: A 'MetricSpace'Model]" (with LarryPolansky,Journalof
Music Theory,24, no. 2 (Fall1980): 20541) and in LarryPolansky'sarticle
"The EarlyWorksof JamesTenney," Soundings13 (The Music of James
Tenney) (1984).
7. Udo Kasemets,Canadiancomposer. See discussionbetween JamesTen-
ney, Udo Kasemets,and others in Mwicwrks 27 (Spring1984).
8. The "I Ching":orBookof Changes,trans. [Chineseto German]by Richard
Wilhelm, trans. [Germanto English]by CaryF. Baynes, 3rd ed. (Prince-
ton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1977). Tenney divides each six-line
hexagramfrom the I Chinginto three two-line digrams,each respectively
correlatedwith the specificmusicalparametersof pitch, temporaldensity,
and dynamiclevel. Eachparameteris furtherdefinedas havingone of four
states (low, high, medium, or full) accordingto the specificdigramforma-
tion. Each of the sixty-fourstudies in Changeshas a hexagramassociated
with the beginningof the study and anotherhexagramassociatedwith the
end of the study; this defines initial and final parametricstates for each
study. During the course of each study, Tenney's composition program
interpolatesbetween the two terminalparametricstates.
9. Synergeticsystems are those systems whose combined actions aregreater
than the sum of the effects of their individualcomponent parts. (These
partsare intimatelyrelatedthrough cooperativeaction.) The principleof
synergy-the understandingof the behaviorof whole systems-was pro-
moted by scientist-philosopher-inventor BuckminsterFuller(1895-1982).