Copyright © 2010 Madanes-Peysha Publishing

Leadership Module/December 10, 2010

MP: Mark Peysha

[Neil, Tara, Pearl, Adrianna, (Rahime phonetic)]

MP: Okay. We are recording. Cloe, can you hear me?

CM: Yes.

MP: Awesome. Okay. Welcome to the teleclass on the Leadership film and then the
Seven Master Steps. And today is a very, this is a fun film because you get to see four
interventions side by side. You get to really see the variety of ways that Tony works on
the seven master steps and I have been working on some frameworks for you to help
understand how the seven master steps work in yet another way because it is important to
explain something and understanding something in many different ways.

And we have gotten quite a few questions of late from folks who are doing coaching and
intervention work with others and sometimes it is, when you are working with people and
you have the capability of going through all these different areas of their life at a deep
way, sometimes it can become difficult to navigate because you know you can be
working on this problem and because you have a systemic view you can be able to help
them with the relationship or another area or their six human needs where that maybe, but
it is important to kind of keep a master map in your head of what you want to accomplish
with the person and understand what the biggest priority is for the person to solve.

So, one point I want to start off with quickly is that in strategic intervention and coaching
we are outcome focused so it is important for you to get very used to the idea that when
you are working with someone you are there to get the person a result – a specific
outcome. And the reason that this is important is that we live in a culture of self-help and
new age and some forms of therapies that are very focused on process. So, for instance,
this is a cliché but it is a good example to give as an example here is that the idea of
getting in touch with your inner child. I know this is a joke like in the 90s and it is a silly
example but it is an example of an approach that is about doing something that is not
outcome oriented.

So people can go to workshops on how to get in touch with their inner child and might
feel great and it might be healing. Who knows? I mean it can be what the person needs
and some people do need that for instance and it might feel nice but some people get
stuck in that kind of frame where it is processed and they are not solving problems or not
improving relationships or not working on their life stage, they are not helping other

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people, they are not growing. And you may have clients sometimes who expect this kind
of process oriented work. The other keyword you know people have manifestation and
you know they want to manifest something and this has kind of been a bit of a plague for
coaching because there is all these secret, you know that move into secret and
manifestation type metaphor that has gotten into coaching and it is somewhat of a
magical type of thinking and people – the reason that you need to know about this is
people come to you for results and they are expecting to go do something like that.

CM: Yeah, let me add something here, Mark. Do you mind if I interrupt?

MP: Yes.

CM: In every approach, there is always the pitfall of getting into the process instead of
the outcome. And in our approach for example, the six human needs could be used in that
way so that the coach get stuck in encouraging a different order of the human needs, or
the priority of one need over another, or in changing some vehicle when that is not what
the person really wanted to change.

MP: Yes. Or yeah, or they can get stuck on trying to figure out which are the really the
top two needs?

CM: Right. Exactly.

MP: And you start kind of picking needle out or a haystack rather than thinking these are
all tools to help that person make a change in their life, a positive change, a result that
they want. Okay? So, in other words, you may have someone for instance a young man,
we have one person here, a coach, who has a young man who is coming and he in his 20s
and he is very accomplished but he wants to get in touch with his emotions. And so that
is fine but some people want to – it can sometimes lead to a never-ending spiral with the
guy who is trying to get in touch with his emotions and he cannot and so forth. Maybe
because he is a guy in his 20s and he should be focusing on something other than his
emotions. You know that might be the possibility but what you want to do is you have to
be very clear that I need to deliver this person a change, a result and sometimes the
person is in a restrictive mindset in terms of the expected go through this processes
forever rather than going at maybe forgetting how to contribute to other people and heal
that way.

So, after reviewing this film, I have some basic questions for you to help you orient
yourself. These are kind of a common thread between all four of these interventions. So
you can think about how to most effectively help a person. Now, we will go through this
once as a list and we will go through them again in greater detail afterwards.

So these are seven questions. One question is – the first one is: What is the nature of the
presenting problem? So the presenting is what the person comes to you for? And it is
important to address the presenting problem and obviously to know that sometimes the
person will come with the presenting problem that they are thinking about it in a limiting

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way or they are giving you a problem that cannot be solved and needs to replace it with
one that can be. So the question of the presenting problem is what are they asking for
and what do they really need? Right?

Second question is: What were they trying to do? And what needs were they trying to
meet? So for instance in the case of Michelle, which is the first intervention from the
film, she wanted to figure out how to get closer to her husband and support him in his
work and maybe that will get her love. Right? That was the example of what she said
that she wanted to do.

Question three is: What were they doing to meet that need? What is working or not?
Right? So in Michelle’s case for instance, she was maybe making some gestures to be
nice or something like that.

The fourth question is: Why was it not working? What shift is needed for it to become
effective? Right? And that is where Tony gave her another way of looking at things.

Question five is: What could they do to meet that need more directly and enjoyably
within themselves? And what they need to adjust in terms of their mindset, their beliefs
and their rules in order to succeed at that endeavor that they have, that problem they want
to solve?

Six is: What do they need to do within themselves to be able to approach this problem in
a different way from now on? So how do they shift the way the way that they approach
these things habitually?

And seven is: How can you make sure when this new solution creates problems or
conflicts in the person’s life as they will, because all solutions always lead to problems
even though the problems are a high quality? How will this person be able to handle it?

So those are seven questions and now what I would like to do is link those seven
questions to the seven master steps here. So that we get a little bit more of a sense of the
purpose of the seven master steps. So the first step is to understand the person. And so
that goes with the question: What is the nature of the presenting problem? And what are
they asking for? And what do they need? Now, I am sorry. I should back up a little bit.

One of the things that you need to understand when you are understanding a person and a
problem and the situation is what role you are going to take with the person. What kind
of problem I am going to help this person with? Right? And so there are three basic
categories and there may be more but these are a good start for understanding what your
role would be with the person. Right?

So one would be information based. So for instance, the person’s problem is information
based, it is to be typically – I want to become a strategic interventionist and I do not
know how. Can you show me? Right. And so when someone has an information based
problem, your role is as an advisor and an expert and the question they often have is I do

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not know how to do it and how do I do it. And what you do is you help them get oriented
to define what needs to get done.

So many of you are not maybe full time coaches. You might have another specialty or
you may be a consultant and you know maybe 75% of your work has to do with helping
these people with an outcome that they have that is very specific and what they need from
you is information and guidance on how to accomplish that.

The second basic category here is logistics based. So in other words, I know what I have
to do but it is not getting done and I am not doing it. And this could be from a specific
outcome that they have in business or in their career but it can also be with their health.
You know they need to lose weight. They know that they need to make the relationship
better and they never do anything. And so in these or very often for instance, parenting
ends up being a logistical breakdown, or someone they want to accomplish this but they
think, whoa, I am a parent now. I have got little kids, and all these things they cannot do.

So your role here is as a performance experts and the logistical solution creator. And the
question they often have is it is not getting done and so what you need to do is help the
person get organized, define an action plan, define the things that are on the way, and
find the way to be accountable and make sure that they are taking action.

So the third category here is conflict based. And this is one where we teach a lot in terms
of the intervention work which is there is a confusion or an inner conflict that is
preventing this person from taking effective action? Or is there an external conflict with
someone else in their life that is preventing them to take an action? And of course, the
internal and the external conflicts are always married to each other so if someone has an
internal conflict, they often have an external conflict with the real person where a person
from the past and so when people have these conflicts they go into non function. It
prevents the person from applying their full creativity and their resources and their
presence to solving a problem and this is when people go into learned helplessness or
they say, “I just do not know how I can do anything, I do not know how I can approach
this problem.”

A typical question for this when people are in conflict is usually not a question. They are
in such a reactive state or in learned helplessness but they are not asking a question and
that is sometimes the clue. When someone is just frustrated and they are stuck, they are
not asking the question because they have a conflict that is preventing from saying, you
know what, I began this problem; I am going to solve this.

And so this is where your role as a strategic interventionist and where you use the seven
master steps and you reconfigure what they are going for, why they need it and what they
need to do to get it. So when you are working with someone, you will often be working
between these three zones so the information where you are giving the person
information that they need to be able to move forward, the logistics where you are
helping the person clear the obstacles and get things done and schedule things and break
things into steps and create action plans and making sure that they do the actions. And

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then the (phonetic conflictual) or the (phonetic conflictory) helping them remove the
internal and external conflicts that human beings get into so that they can be receptive
and more empowered to take up their energy, to take up their creativity, to take up their
determination and be able to carry out what they need to carry out in life.

So you will be shifting between those three and sometimes you will shift very typically.
For instance, if you watch the intervention with Tony someone will come up and they
will say I have something that is not getting done and then Tony will investigate it and
they will find out oh, that they had this conflict like well, I am not doing it because, and
they get into physiology or Tony notices that the person is kind of tied up in a knot about
it and then he does an intervention with the person where they clarify what they really
want, what their needs are, what they are trying to accomplish, what their mindset needs
to be, right? And then, once that is resolved the person is okay, so what do I do? And so
then it is logistics based and information based and it is clear, then Tony is just giving
them information and helping them to find a way to get things done. Does that make
sense, Cloe?

CM: Yes, totally.

MP: Great. So let us go through the remaining questions and the remaining master steps
quickly. I have put that under the first master steps. By the way, I can send you guys this
outline. I know it is outline formed. It is a little bit complicated to hear it on the phone.
So that is step one is understanding your role and understanding a person and the nature
of the presenting problem.

Step two is create the base and get leverage, so we are all familiar with this. The question
we associate is: What were they trying to do? And what needs were they trying to meet?
So when you are building leverage and a base, you are bonding with them about what
they want. You are building on their desires and needs in the way that they could grow
those. And so I just want to make a quick caveat about when you were watching Tony do
this especially in these four which are very quick interventions. But the way that Tony
gets leverage in many of these is contextual in the sense that he has had an event, people
have been at several days and so he often will use a short hand to get leverage at people
by showing them how they need to grow and give.

So for instance, with Michelle is a good example. He just very quickly points out to her
that she is giving to get and that she is horse-trading in order to get her husband’s
attention and he did not have to say very much more because there is a whole context to
the event and she said “Oh, I am doing that,” you know and she gets it. So when you are
actually working with someone one on one then you are building a basic relationship.
You may need to take more time to create a base and get leverage and it is really about
making sure the person understand, feels understood that you put yourself on their shoes,
you understand what they want and that you are taking all of your communication from
the perspective that you are side by side trying to reach your client’s goals with them.
That is like how you build leverage one on one.

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The third master step is define the real challenge and the question with it is: What were
they doing specifically to meet that need? So you want to define what is not working.
So, this is where you say, you know you define what is not working, you back up away
from the problem to get a broader view of things so in Michelle’s case for instance from
the interventions, from the film, Michelle said, Tony pointed out to her the real challenge
is you are not going to be more supportive of your husband if you do not feel you are
getting anything out of it. So he said as soon as she started talking about how she was
going to be supportive of this husband and maybe she will get love out of it, he says well,
I think I understand your problem. You are not really convinced. Right? So he could
redefine the real challenge.

With Gary, Gary stood up and said you know at one point he was saying that what he
really wanted in life was love but Tony saw the problem was that Gary was not going to
be able to experience love if he has this intensity and this blame and this kind of black
and white mentality about things and of course then Tony understood why Gary felt that
way it is because he had all this blame from this tragedy he had been through but so Tony
redefined the challenge that way.

In the case of Ken who felt like he was stuck in the past and thinking about what he had
done and what the teacher had done and so forth, Tony was redefining the challenges of
how can you be who you are now and empower yourself. In the case of Olivia, the real
challenge was that she was mourning the turns that her life had taken and going into
learned helplessness because she was forgetting that she was a Garzon. Right?

So I hope this is clear. The step four is: Interrupt and annihilate the limiting pattern. So
when you are doing that what you are doing is you are explaining to the person why it is
not working in a shift that will be necessary. So what you want to identify as an
interventionist is identify the mindset or the assumption or the belief system behind the
way that they are trying to deal – the way that they are trying to solve the problem.

So usually the challenge lies – if people come to you and say, “I have this problem.” You
know, Michelle will come up and say, “I have this problem. I want to do this with my
husband but it is not working.” Right? And so when you interrupt and annihilate after
you have defined the real challenge you say, you know Tony said, “It is of course
because you are not convinced this is going to work at all and then when you interrupted
a limiting pattern you take them into a different frame where you often point out that the
challenge lies in the way that the person is trying to solve the problem, the way they are
trying to solve their needs.

And usually the reason that things are not working in general is because the person is not
thinking big, they are not thinking about other people’s realities and they are not focusing
on growing because they are trying to get this one thing done in a way that it is not big.
They are not thinking big. I do not know exactly how to phrase that better. Maybe they
are egocentric about the way that they are trying to solve the problem rather than
thinking, “Okay, how am I going to make my husband feel so out of his mind happy with
what I could contribute to him so that we are going to have a great relationship?” Right.

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Instead she is thinking, “Oh, so what crumbs can I give him so that I will get something
back?” Right?

So what you do with this when you interrupt and annihilate the limiting pattern, you are
explaining what is not working and the shift will not be necessary. You will present a
different mindset for approaching the problem. So with Michelle, Tony pointed out
“Look, you are giving to get. That is your problem.”

With Gary, Tony pointed out, “You are making everything black or white,” right? And
with Ken, he pointed out, “Look, you are trying to go back to some story and instead of
looking at what is the power that you really have right now.” And with Olivia, he said,
“You are trying to be someone who you are not. You are trying to be this helpless person
as the wife of [Hanich] rather than being the Garzon,” which – and really and drawing
into your family about legacy.

And so step five is create empowering alternatives and the question you are answering
there is what could the person do to meet that need more directly and enjoyably within
themselves and what would they need to adjust in terms of their mindset, the beliefs and
the rules. So you want to inspire and encourage the person. And so this is again the step
five when you are creating empowering alternatives, it is important to be very expansive,
be very cheerful, optimistic and creative in the way that you will have to be able to give
the person half a dozen different ways that they can solve the problem. So what happens
is most people when they have a problem, they get all constricted around it and about
they do one thing repetitively over and it does not work and then they say, “I have tried
everything.” So you need to show them look, if you can do this, you can do that. I know
this about you. You can try this. I know that you have that relationship. You can help
that person that way. You have to give them a ton of ideas.

So step six is condition and test for ecology and at this point, we are focusing on how to
help the person make this change when this intervention last. So the first way is to
condition the person within themselves and within the simple interactions they may have
so making sure that they are aware of what is required to solve that problem with that
new mindset. Now you are dealing with the internal conflict in the person so just
practicing with some repetition on how to get out of the conflict conditions the person.

So, you can do this explicitly as in the case of Michelle where Tony demonstrated the
difference between what works and what does not work and remember he had her go be
Michelle and then he had her be Cinnamon and he did it with her husband and asked the
husband who is he more attracted to – Michelle or Cinnamon? Right? That is a way of
explicitly demonstrating the contrast between what you need to do to get the results and
what you used to do to get the results.

And you can also do this implicitly where you ask the person questions so you ask them
“what if” questions or what would you know, now that you are in this state what do you
think of that person who was so helpless with me an hour ago and did not know how the
– did not think about solving you know the problems in such a small way rather than the

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more robust way that you are doing it now.

So the seven steps is what communication – the seventh step is what is it? I am sorry I am
just blanking on what the language is for it. But it is basically on what communication or
relationship shift would enable the person to keep the change going. So in this case you
are thinking about resolving not only the internal conflict but the external conflicts that
they have with other people and so you might rehearse conflicts with other people so like
someone so for instance if there was a young lady who was having trouble with her father
and she was just shown her, walk her through the steps for how she can make the
decision that she needs to make and then you will be preparing her for going to her father
and talking to him and so step seven would be so what if he says this? What if he
criticizes you know? What if he does this? And you will basically coach her and her
responses, right? So you want to strengthen this person when they go back to the other
relationships so that they cannot only be strong within themselves but they can also have
some idea of how they can be effective with those people.

So, I hope these frameworks are helpful. I know it is a lot of content and very dense but
we will release that as a – if you have any questions about this and definitely ask them
and Cloe if you have any thoughts on it?

CM: Well, one thought. Oh, just a small thing. Sometimes you want to just give one
directive, one alternate behavior not a whole bunch of them because with some people
when you make a lot of possible suggestions, they will not do anything, whereas if you
just give one they will grab that one.

MP: Got it. So we are talking about step five when you are giving them many creative
decision, creative ways of doing it and you will be more inclined to give them one thing
that you have kind of.

CM: Yes, I know sometimes I do give a lot but it depends on what kind of person I am
working with.

MP: Got it.

CM: Some people will immediately jump at the idea. Well, I did not think of that. It is
true. I could do this, I could do that. I could do the other one and they will not get
paralyzed by many alternatives and some people just cannot handle that much variety.

MP: Yes, yeah, definitely.

CM: All right.

MP: Great.

CM: Very good, now we can take some questions. I have some questions in writing.

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MP: And so yeah, I mean one of these. If you have any questions, why do not we have if
people have questions about these presentations stuff first so we can get cleared because I
know this is a lot of stuff. So if you have any questions, press star two for the phone and
then we will get into the questions that are written down. I have a question here from the
webcast and the question is: “What is the difference between these steps and the seven
master steps?”

They are the same. I am basically trying to show you another way of looking at the seven
master steps. So what I just went through was the seven master steps and they are paired
with these seven questions. So, basically think of this as another way of understanding
the seven master steps. How to understand, how to create a base and create leverage,
how to define the real challenge, how to interrupt or annihilate the limiting pattern, how
to create empowering alternatives, how to condition and test for ecology and then – I am
sorry I am blanking on the language for the last step.

CM: It is how to condition the change.

MP: Yeah, how to create an empowering environment.

CM: That is right.

MP: Okay.

CM: Okay, we have a bunch of questions in writing, can I do some of them?

MP: Yes, although hold on I have a question here from… Okay. “In the third
intervention there was a stage where Tony started playing music and having everyone
clap their hands in a unique way. Please explain that part.”

Okay. So that is in the Ken intervention, Tony had everyone clapping and basically what
he was doing there is he was challenging the guy to take on more of a masculine energy
and basically to build up the determination and Tony will sometimes do this. It is almost
like clapping as if you were to sport or something like that, just kind of build up the
energy like clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. So, that is something that you can do if you feel
comfortable with it. It is not something that I would necessarily choose just because of
my personality type is different. But it is one way that Tony used to build up the person’s
determination and men sometimes challenge each other in that way.

CM: Okay.

MP: Okay, so we have some live questions quickly, Cloe. Let us just, so we that we can
stay on this topic that we just have two questions here and then we will go to the ones
that are written down, okay?

CM: Okay.

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MP: All right. We have Neil.

Neil: Hey, guys. Hi, Neil.

CM: Hi, Neil.

Neil: Hi. Yeah, I just wanted to point out that Mark I really liked the framework that
you offered and I think that I guess this is more of a comment and a question and it is sort
of ironic because the common is it is a hopeful reminder to ask questions as a way of
proceeding through the seven master steps. It includes you feeling like you have the
answer or you are commenting on a person’s situation.

MP: Yes. Yeah, definitely. So I mean the seven master steps is not something you just
march through. It has to be interactive and you need to understand which questions you
are answering for yourself and for the other person with each of those. It is a great point.
Awesome.

CM: Okay, thank you.

MP: Great and here is another one from 973 area code.

Pearl: Yeah, hi, Mark. Hi, Cloe. It is Pearl.

MP: Hi, Pearl.

Pearl: Hi. The last email I have got is about the teleclass. The first teleclass, a Monday.

MP: Yes. So Pearl, you know what happened is in my haste I guess I sent out a last
minute email to everyone here and I am glad you are bringing this up. I want to
announce it. I accidentally invited everyone, the new class to this call course, which is
today’s teleclass so just think of this as a little bonus or a preview or something. It is
going to be more complex and then we are going to start off more slow. Just right now in
the last minute before we started I accidentally checked box the December class so my
apologies for any confusion but –

Pearl: Oh, no, no. That is okay. I just so happened turned on the computer at 3:06 and
said, “Whoa! There is a class (0:28:26 inaudible).”

MP: Yeah, I goofed. That was rushing so sorry about that.

Pearl: That is quite all right but we still will have Monday class?

MP: We still have Monday.

CM: Yes.

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Pearl: Okay, great and also that will be module one?

MP: That will be module one.

Pearl: Okay and before I go, oh, my God what do I want to talk to you? You know what
I want to talk just went over my head.

CM: Okay, you will have an opportunity on Monday.

MP: Yeah, you can email me if you have any question.

Pearl: I know if I do I will just send an email to you.

CM: Thank you very much.

Pearl: Thank you. Thank you so much.

MP: Right. Thank you.

CM: Okay. So here I have a question in writing that is a good one. “How can we
enhance our study buddy sessions for maximum benefit?” And this is someone that has
been using Skype and the Google calendar and Google chat and so on. As you go
through the modules for the study buddy, for example, with what we reviewed today, you
can take one aspect. Let us say that you take Olivia Garzon and you could role play the
coach and the client and you can ask the client, you know you are the product of two
families getting together. Which family do you really belong to? Who are you really?
And get a little bit into the source of the identity whether it is one side of the family or the
other or is it the family of the spouse or not? For example, in the case of Michelle –
Michelle and Cinnamon, what are the different hats that you wear? Are you a father but
also a son and also a husband and what different names you would give to all those
different characters? So with the study buddy you are practicing these different
techniques. Does that make sense Mark?

MP: Yeah, it is perfect and it is important to be creative. I mean flex your creative
muscles. So sometimes the study buddy assignments are very short, but as a coach one of
your skill set is going to be how to expand and how to go through something and think of
how to make it a bigger experience with the person or just find new ways to use
something.

CM: Yeah.

MP: Great.

CM: Okay, here is another one. One second here. I just lost it.

MP: I have one here if you want.

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CM: “What about people that are very focused on variety? And they are married and
have children and they stuck of the idea of variety and freedom. How can you move
them to be more into connection, love or certainty?”

Yes, this is an issue and so I would help them to introduce variety in their life as a
husband, as a parent, as a wife, as a mother so that the variety is something to be enjoyed
with the rest of the family and then limit the enjoyment of individual variety experiences
to a certain time and a certain place. For example, one time a week, three hours for an
experience of variety that is individual and separate.

MP: Yes, that is great. I think it is great when someone is very focused on – this is
especially when someone is really focused on the need that is out of synch with the needs
of the group or people that are responsible for us such as their family that it is better for
them to schedule intense really fully satisfying variety for themselves at one point during
the week rather than trying to grope after little crumbs of variety here and there. Does
that make sense?

CM: Yes, that makes sense totally so here is a question. It is a little bit longer but it is
interesting. “I have a Muslim Indian family I work with. They are very wealthy and
incredibly kind. They have a son who is 28 at home still, socially isolated, is going
through steps to become more independent. He feels worthless and a failure. He is
creative but jumps around to different things never mastering anything. The parents
support him still but really with his own money because he has a trust fund. He does not
work so it is clear that the parents are enabling this kid” – he is not a kid, he is 28 – “in
ways that are keeping him down. So he feels like a loser, the father is very successful.
He wants to pursue acting and the father is not supportive of this.”

Well, it seems to me this is a leaving home problem so I would think of who he is trying
to help by staying attached in this way to the family and to the parents. Probably there
are marital issues and this is a case similar to Scott where he is maybe keeping the mother
company. I would think about whether there are other siblings and why has he been
chosen for this role and it seems to me another way that you can look at it is that he is
leading a rather boring life and so how can his life be enhanced to where it is a more
interesting life. But this is a general problem of young people who have a trust fund. It
is very difficult to get motivated to do anything when you have this security of that kind
of money coming in regularly. So Mark, I do not know if you want to add something to
this.

MP: Yeah, I mean you know at that stage, that is the stage of life where you take risks,
where you make commitments based on – you know you do not have expertise but you
decide on something that you want to do, you need to put your heart and soul into it so
sometimes if someone is used to the certainty of getting that cash or that income then
they just become addicted to the certainty and they do not develop the ability and the risk
taking behaviors and the commitments to actually develop in the way that actually create
value because basically at that age you have to be focused on not only what interests you
but how are you going to create value in the world so you can grow as a person.

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So I think in addition to talking about how it is kind of boring, I would talk to the kid and
talk about how, you maybe talk about some examples of people how, what that life stage
is like. The life stage of when you are in your 20s is when you go out there and you
figure out what you are interested in and then how you can learn it so that it becomes
valuable to other people and then you have relationships, you have respect, you have
jobs, you have projects that you can work on and using that money as a nice little – it is
nice to have a safety net but you do not rely on it like it is a way of preventing yourself
from doing anything. But I think the only thing about the boredom, being boring is a
really good way to approach people in that phase like are you sure that you want to spend
your 20s like this?

CM: Right, right and you can talk also about the sacrifice that he is making staying at
home sort of watching both the parents instead of doing interesting things out in the
world.

MP: Yeah, when you talk about these other people or have in their 20s. Yeah, you do a
paradoxical thing where you say it is so kind of you to dedicate your life to sitting with
older people.

CM: That is right. That is what I do. I talk about that.

MP: Yeah, that is great.

CM: And I even go to the extent of saying, you know you probably you are a much
better person than I ever was because I love my parents but I was interested in my life
and what I was going to do, what fun I was going to have. I was not going to sit around
at home and watch them.

MP: Yeah, that is great.

CM: Yeah, so here is an interesting one. “If the belief of the fear of not being enough is
universal and we all have it, what is a direct way, a general way of approaching it?”

Well, yes, we all have the fear of not being enough but it means different things for
different people so that for someone the fear of not being enough will drive you to a need
to always get As in school, to prove yourself by doing the most difficult work possible or
by studying the most difficult thing or by being the best parent, and for other people, the
fear of not being enough just leads them to a sense of defeat where they give up and they
do not even try so you have to meet the person at where they are at so there is a whole
bunch of gray areas in between. So the idea of the fear of not being enough is just to
guide you to the question of how does this fear really appear? Is it that I am not kind
enough to be loved? Or I am not funny enough, I am not entertaining enough, I am not
pretty enough? What is it and what does it mean for that particular person?

MP: Yeah, and basically you should think about that not being enough is the fear, is that

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the fear that prevents people from working on quality problems that move them forward
in their life stage rather than developing safe problems that prevent, that protect them
many risks.

CM: Yes.

MP: Great.

CM: And then here is a big question: “How to rebuild trust then help people to forgive
and forget? Move the energy to a direction that is not the past.”

You know I have used a variety of techniques for that but one – I imagine that this refers
to a couple’s relationship. One that I find very useful that I have described before to this
group is the idea of the executive meeting where you have one meeting at a neutral place
outside of the home once a week for an hour, an hour and a half and that is the only time
that resentments and criticisms and negative issues from the past can be expressed. So
for the rest of the week, the conversation has to be positive and any negative thoughts
have to be just recorded in a notebook that is going to be taken to that executive meeting.
So what you are doing is that you are focusing on enclosing the negativity and the lack of
trust and so on to one space and time.

MP: Yes, also it is very nice to point out to people there is something that John Gottman
discovered and promotes in terms of relationship communication that in order for a
relationship to stay the same, for not to get worst, there needs to be five times as much
positive communication as negative communication so that is just to keep the equilibrium
not even to improve a relationship, so to help –

CM: Oh that is so important. I am glad that you remembered that. Think about that in
any relationship just to keep it stable not even to improve it, you have to have five times
more positive communication than negative. If people would practice that and actually
have eight or ten times more positive communication than negative, relationships would
improve drastically and negative communication is any kind of criticism. It is even
veiled criticisms like “You are not a great talker” or “You do not like to share your
feelings.” Those kinds of comments are all negative.

MP: Yes, yeah absolutely so appreciating the person, saying something nice. We can get
into more detail about this later but you know the –

CM: Also the positive comments saying, “I really like the way you are dressed today” or
“I really enjoy your comments on the movie that we saw last night.” Something,
anything like that is positive.

MP: And sometimes they do not have to be direct by the way, positive communication is
when someone says, “The weather is turning up,” and you say, “Yeah, it is.” That is
positive also. It does not have to be direct but it is if you are like giving the person a
positive response you are training with them and you are saying yeah, that is great or that

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is a good idea or that is true. That is positive as well. Okay?

CM: Okay. So here is one, this is a coach who has a client who is totally focused on
certainty, terrified of the unknown so she is stuck in a routine and even though she craves
a relationship, she does not engage enough with friends or dating and so on because it is
unknown to the point that she freaks out because the sister invited her to a place where
she would not know what the food would be like so she has to know everything in
advance.

So, this is interesting. I probably would focus more rather than her need for certainty on
the fear that is holding her back. So walk her through the steps what if she went to a
restaurant and she thought she knew the menu but it turns out that they changed it and
now everything is completely different. What would happen? And just have her have
small situations where she can get the pleasure from the surprise even if it is just reading
a story where she does not know the ending or watching a movie that she does not know
how it is going to end, but I think that there is some fear that is holding her back that you
really need to find out how that originated and she is not living in the present so I would
put the whole focus on living in the present because in fear either there is a real and
present danger or the fear is imaginary. So all these needs for control are totally
imaginary. Does that make sense Mark?

MP: Yeah, I was thinking. It was interesting what you are talking. I was thinking
originally how when people are so certainty focused and they are so afraid of the
unknown, they are always creating consequences for themselves that are known that are
also really negative. Right?

CM: Yes.

MP: And so you know you are pretty certain that you are going to go some place and
have a bad time rather than a fun time you know as an example. But also with someone
who is afraid though you do not want to kind of take leverage or make them even more
afraid so I think it is really interesting how you point it out that it is more important to
open their eyes to what is nice to what other people that are doing that is great and –

CM: Maybe you could get her to go to a restaurant and ask the waiter to pick what she is
going to eat.

MP: Oh.

CM: Little things like that. I used to do that.

MP: Little micro ones that are not really threatening.

CM: I like variety so I will say to the waiter, “What is your favorite dish here?” and
whatever they will say I would say, “Okay, I will have that.”

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MP: Yeah, I mean the other thing is obviously that it is dangerous to be completely
afraid because the point of being afraid is the reason that we have all have fear is to
protect us from danger but if you are always afraid it is like you have a car alarm that is
always going off. Well you never know when your car is actually being stolen. That
defeats the purpose of this.

CM: That is right. All right. Here is another one. He says, “I talked to a lot of people
who have children who have committed suicide. There is a large range of emotions from
guilt to anger at the child to suicidal ideation themselves. What is the best overall
perspective to shift someone in these cases?”

I think you have to focus the person on honoring the dead child in a special way with a
special contribution. So maybe on the birthday of that child they will do something
special to help other children who want to live and who are underprivileged so I would
focus on that and I would focus like Tony did with Carol on the other children that are
still alive.

MP: Yes.

CM: But the idea of a ritual once a year to honor the memory of that child is a very
important one.

MP: And yeah, you have to think that that must not go in vain. That it must be used to
help other children as well or prevent suffering for others. But I think what you also
Cloe, I think even better what you said is that something that that person really cared
about so you are honoring what the person really cared about so it may not have anything
to do with suicide or like that just something that they cared about.

CM: Yeah.

MP: Great. All right. Do you have any more questions? I have a whole bunch that got
sent through email and we have a couple of about…

CM: I have a lot through email. Yeah.

MP: Okay.

CM: So that I will read. I am summarizing it.

MP: Sure.

CM: Okay, so this is a relative of the person writing. “This is an uncle and his family.
The son is 36 years old, still lives with them, he has been totally out of control, does not
work, picks on the father, has gone an outrageous and broken windows. He was taken to
the hospital for two weeks. Now he will not take just medications. The parents are
exhausted and helpless and even worst the other son that left his family with three

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children for a young woman and behaves like he never had a family and the uncle who is
60 plus years old has to work to pay back the debts created by the son.”

So, you know in a situation like this one time what I did and the father was a psychiatrist
and he was a very competent psychiatrist, the director of a hospital actually and he really
could not control this young man that was causing havoc in the home. So it was a family
with many children and they had I think like four boys that were all difficult and two girls
who were younger and very nice. I had the parents leave. I had the parents just move out
with the girls and leave the home to the troublesome son to fend to himself. It seems to
me that some drastic action has to be taken here. So when the son is creating this kind of
threat within the family, either he has to go, or the parents have to go. Something has to
be done because I can envision that this man who is 60 something now can be 80
something years old and still being tormented by this son.

MP: That is a severe issue because that is why – I mean moving someone out would be
justified if the means preventing the young son from having to go to breaking the law and
getting into the judicial system or the parents are getting hurt, the risks are very high so –

CM: Yeah, and it is very difficult to solve this from within your own family so I would
find the best possible referral in your area to help them take the steps necessary to control
this situation.

MP: Okay.

CM: All right and I will be happy to help with that so if you want to email me and tell
me where they live maybe I can make some suggestions.

MP: Great.

CM: Okay, so here is another one regarding the Carol film, the part where Tony’s rituals
with Carol. We said that we did not recommend doing that with a client. Why? It seems
to me this is the ultimate pattern breaking technique. It is a perfect place where Carol got
her internal questions changed so she could get new answers. Oh, it is just that the reason
we said that we recommend not using it is that you have to be experienced to do this.
You have to be very careful because it could turn into a mockery of the other person.
You have to do it juts right so that it is serious but not too dramatic and where it cannot
be interpreted as making fun of the problems of the person. So if you feel confident that
you can do it, by all means do it. I am just saying that it is a very delicate difficult
technique.

MP: Uh-uh. Good point.

CM: Okay. Are there any live questions, Mark?

MP: Yeah, let us take some live ones here. We got one from 323 area code. One
second. Okay, you are on.

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Tara: Can you hear me?

CM: Yes.

MP: Yes, hey.

Tara: Hey, it is Tara.

MP: How are you?

Tara: Hey, good. Thank you. I am wondering. Are there resources that you recommend
like books or whatever that will help us understand how different cultures communicate
some of the stuff that we have discussed has been really helpful like in terms of
understanding other cultures especially in the work place and I want to know if there are
some books out there that you can help buy or?

CM: Yes.

MP: I have just heard about some interesting materials so I will look those up for you.

CM: Yes, I will look it up also. It does not come to mind. I think that there are specific
materials to specific cultures. For example, there are books on how to do business in the
orient? I was just having an interesting conversation with somebody recently about this.
For example, the idea that Americans see giving a gift to a business relationship like a
bribe and in many cultures it is the minimum politeness to bring a gift when you meet
someone. And so you know these differences are huge, but I do not know of any book
that summarizes many cultures. They are usually on a specific culture.

MP: There are some elements or dynamics in cultures so for instance some cultures in
terms of their communication are more context driven and others are less context driven
so some cultures very small where you are totally changes the way that you interact with
other. And other ones, anywhere you go, you act the same way. It is not such a big deal.
Or you have some cultures where people do not, where they under communicate and
Malcolm Gladwell dealt with that really well. I think it was in – was it in Blink, Cloe?
You know the airplane pilot?

CM: Oh, yeah, that is a great book. The Malcolm Gladwell books have a lot about these.
All of the books.

MP: Yeah, so they basically did a study of airplane crashes and they discovered there is a
huge cultural component in airplane crashes and it became because the captain and the
first officer of the plane the way that they communicated about problems. In some
cultures, when you have a problem, you go out and you very directly say, “There is a
major problem. I need your attention.” In other cultures, people are circumspect and
they will say, “Well, looks like our altitude could be a little better.” They said that before
they crashed you know. So the communication does not get in.

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Tara: I need that before I fly the next plane. I will do a screening checklist.

CM: Oh, no. Now it has been changed. The first thing that they did was that they made
English the mandatory for all the pilots and first officers and so when they communicate
with a control tower, they use English because it is a more assertive language than other
languages. And now they are training all the pilots in being very assertive and direct in
the communication instead of being polite and they reduced the number of crashes
dramatically like you know.

Tara: Wow.

CM: Yeah.

Tara: Thank you.

CM: You are welcome.

MP: We will take a look. There is a film

CM: Yeah, we will take a look.

Tara: Happy holidays.

MP: Yeah, same to you.

CM: Thank you. You too.

MP: Great. So we have a question from the 505 area code.

Adrianna: Yeah, hi, this is Adrianna.

MP: Hey, Adrianna.

Adrianna: Hi, Cloe. Hi, Mark.

CM: Hey, Adrianna. How are you?

Adrianna: Good, good. Okay. I have a question. I am trying to understand the coach
training a little bit more. I am done with the intervention intense class and I only have
the bonus modules left. What is next after that?

MP: What we have next this January and February. We are going to be working on two
things. The marketing and business plan for coaches and how to design your practice and
how to understand kind of what your strengths are, who you want to serve and how do
you set up a practice and then how do you market or how do you attract clients and the
second part is going to be the workplace intensive for people who are not full time

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coaches but maybe work some place where they want to be able to do interventions to
bring their situations, their problems or challenges and their goals where we will work
through those to talk about ways that you can apply strategic intervention to different
very specific situations so for instance if, those are going to be a kind of how to apply
things and we are also going to work on some kind of quick start guide for you to have
kind of a step by step guide for your first sessions so you have a sense of how to go
through.

CM: Okay, yeah but this is a good question Mark because there is a bunch of people that
are really ready to finish and graduate and so you know we know some of you better than
we know others but what will be required for everyone is some way of showing us that
you have actually put some of these techniques into practice, that you have actually done
some coaching. It could be in the form of little vignettes about interventions that you
made. It could be an audio or a video of you coaching somebody. Something that
interests you in your particular niche with the kind of people that you want to work with
showing us that there is something practical, that there is a way that you are putting this
into practice. Does that make sense?

Adrianna: Yes, actually I already started last week because my coach that I had with
Tony Robbins challenged me and told me to get to work so I already have my first client
last week.

MP: Great.

CM: Great.

Adrianna: And my husband’s business managers because they are paying for my school
anyways so I already am working with his company. He said I can go ahead and work
with the managers so I started that but I feel like I want more training so are you going to
offer even more training? Like more intensive training?

CM: Yes, we are. We are going to offer a more advanced training.

Adrianna: When is that?

CM: You want to say something about that, Mark?

MP: Yeah, I think – I do not have the details for you at this moment but we are preparing
to send a communication to the folks who completed the first program so you can know
how to go forward. We have a lot of great materials that we are working on so yes.

Adrianna: So bonus module is the last one right? Is that the last class?

MP: The bonus module is now in terms of the marketing plan and the workplace
intensive are next for the founding class.

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Adrianna: Okay.

CM: You finished all 30 something modules, Adrianna?

Adrianna: Yes, that is what I do when I am washing the dishes and the laundry and you
know.

[Laughter]

MP: That is right.

Adrianna: Stuff like that.

CM: Okay. That is wonderful. Congratulations.

MP: Good job. Yes, perfect. I think Cloe and I just want to confirm before we kind of
announce it but we have something to announce for you.

CM: Yes, very soon. Very soon.

Adrianna: Oh, I am so excited. So now can I ask a question about feeling like you are
not enough? Can I change the question? Can I ask the question? It is kind of
embarrassing for me but I am going to do it anyways.

CM: Okay.

Adrianna: Okay, here we go. My question is: How can you feel like you are enough as
far as you have sex with your husband, with your mate? How can you feel like you are
enough? Enough but like you are not enough.

CM: Do you mean feel like you are not enough sexually with your mate?

Adrianna: Yes, not feel like, you know, I am not enough. How can I feel like I am
enough? Because I feel like I am not enough. And I think that has been my challenge
since the last time we met Cloe. I think it has been my challenge.

CM: Uh-huh. Well, I think that you need some affirmations in that. I think and that you
need to look at yourself in the mirror every morning, every night and say, “Adrianna, I
am more than enough.”

Adrianna: Oh.

CM: I am a bombshell, Adrianna.

[Laughter]

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Adrianna: Okay. That is funny. Okay.

CM: All right.

Adrianna: All right. I will do that. Okay.

CM: All right and then do a little dance to just anchor that feeling. Okay?

Adrianna: Okay.

CM: All right.

Caller: That is funny. Thank you.

CM: Let me know how it goes. You take care.

Adrianna: Okay, I will do that.

CM: Bye-bye.

Adrianna: Bye.

MP: That is great.

CM: All right.

MP: I have an email question from Rahime who wanted to follow up on her question.

CM: Yes.

MP: Rahime, I just need you to raise your hand so I can see you. I am not sure which
phone number you had here. Let me see quickly if there are some typed in questions
here.

CM: Okay.

MP: One moment. I am waiting for them to refresh here.

CM: Okay, I have some questions here.

MP: Go for it, go for it

CM: Okay. No more live, huh?

MP: I am waiting for the live written question.

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CM: “I still find it difficult at times to get leverage and commitment. How can you
create something and make it a habit?”

Yes, you know that that is the ultimately the issue and what is important is to have an
interaction of view because if you create something and the person gets a positive
response from the most important relationships then it you increase in inordinately the
chances that it will became a habit so.

MP: Yeah, in terms of habit building this is a principle that I found very helpful. You
have to realize that you wake up every morning with all this energy and all of these
things that you do. You only have about a teaspoon worth of will power so like the part
of yourself that has a focus, that has the will power, that has the determination, that has
the wherewithal to really build a new habit and so you have to build one habit at a time,
and try to do it first thing in the morning as early as you can while you still have that bit
of energy that will allow you to build a new habit, and it takes 30s days to build it.

And so if there is something that you can do even if it is like a behavioral habit like a
reaction to someone even if it is just a session that you put yourself under the state of
mind and you visualize how you are going to do it, or you put yourself like Cloe has just
spoken with Adrianna. You cultivate a relationship with yourself about one thing that
you are going to do in a specific way with a ritual and that will help you develop the
habit. So but you have to think that one habit at a time. You do not want to be saying
five different habits and you have to do it every day for 30 days.

CM: Uh-huh.

MP: Okay, perhaps there is – I am waiting for Rahime to –

CM: Her phone number is 949.

MP: Yeah, I am not seeing her there. Oh, there we go. Okay. Here we go. You are
unmuted now, Rahime.

Rahime: Okay, sorry about that. Can you hear me?

CM: Yes.

Rahime: Okay, it has been a long time since I have been in school. I forget how to raise
my hand.

[Laughter]

Rahime: I could not remember for the life of me what the number was. I apologize.
Okay, so the Indian family is the family that I am working with and everything you both
said fits and that is – we are dealing with family dynamics. There is a lot of stuff going
on with Mom and there is not really a whole lot of couple of issues. He is not necessarily

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an identified patient in that way but I think, I think he is a sort of if you had imagined a
high functioning (inaudible 1:05:15) type kid who is very sensitive and had a lot of social
issues when he was young and the family has just kind of compensated for him a lot.
And they really did not understand some of the needs that he has so I actually think some
of it are (phonetic 1:05:23 character logically) the kid but I do think that Mom has gotten
so used to taking care of him and prioritizing him and I do think that he is also – takes a
lot of the projections of a negative experiences on the family on to him by the Dad
specifically and they are a wonderful couple and they are really, really working very
hard. I have only seen them about; we did an intensive 3-hour session so already there is
some huge movement. My question specifically is if we get more clarity and I need to
know the family a little bit more and understand this a bit better but I might, my suspicion
is that they are certainly off financially enabling his disempowerment. Are there any I
mean – my ideas would be for example if he crashes the car and Dad had him pay 50%
out of his trust. So yes, he sees his trust fund money reduced but I suspect that they are
so wealthy that the kid really –

CM: I do not think that matters. I think that it is better to think in a more elevated way.
For example, I would send him on a pilgrimage to visit the sacred places or in an
adventure trip, something completely different instead of staying home with his mother
all the time. They have the means to do that. They could send him to for two months to
Paris to study French; something that will be a total adventure away from home.

Rahime: Okay, so if the kid wants, right now his primary – and I understand what you
are saying so that is very helpful. He wants to be engaging in this, I think create a
program. He is on L.A. And he is really, really wants to move out and is beginning to
really express that. They just feel like –

CM: That is great. So they could rent him an apartment and he could move out and
study acting or whatever he wants to study.

Caller: Are you saying then it would be in line with – I mean if they paid for his –

CM: Yes I think that…

Caller: So he is not working and he is not contributing that would be okay.

CM: No. One of the problems of the rich is when they try to have their son live outside
of their social class. They are wealthy. They have to accept that. So instead of trying to
get him to work or to pay for the car or whatever, rent him an apartment and put him out.

Caller: Oh, they actually bought him a condo.

CM: Well, great. So then let him go to the condo.

Caller: Right. But, yeah, they have bought him a condo but he still lives at home and I
do not know too much about this because like I said we just met but they have rented him

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a condo and he is renting – he is in the process of trying to rent it out so that the money
for the condo would then pay for his schooling.

MP: Oh, now I get it.

CM: No, they should pay for the schooling and he should live in the condo. It is not
using money intelligently, this way of doing things.

MP: How much control does he have on his trust fund?

Caller: He goes through his dad from what I gathered. He goes through dad when he
needs –

CM: So it is not really a trust fund. It is just the father manages the money. I think it is
very important for a wealthy family to use the money intelligently so what they want is
for him to be at his, with his peers at the right developmental stage, and they have the
resources to put him there. Paying for the car or having him pay for his studies is not
realistic in that family.

MP: It sounds to me also that maybe if he is 28, he has gotten used to, he does not have
any other way of getting money except through his father, and his father, it is probably
getting filtered to the father’s personality his judgments.

Caller: Oh, absolutely.

MP: And when people are getting doled out money like this and it is not in reciprocity
for what they create or something like that they get into that kind of playing the spread
where well you were going to pay for my school but instead I going to have you do – you
know you are going to allocate it his and I am going to allocate it there. It is almost like –
they have become very cheap with and so I wonder whether there will be a pattern to
interrupt Cloe or another way of dealing with money so that he had certainty about what
money he was getting and what he wanted to spend money on and they could have a plan
where they could talk about what would be, you know, come to agreement on what the
budget was going to be for him, what would matter to him.

CM: Absolutely, and use the parent’s resources.

MP: Because that maybe that the son wants to do things and then he is discouraged in
subtle ways by the father and the father will only pay for the condo and the son is trying
to get money from the condo and put it into this other thing and end up becoming like
money laundering rather than being straight forward about how the family resources are
to be used for that son to do what he wants to do.

CM: Yeah.

Caller: So it is important to allow him to have access to the resources and really support

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him in what gives him passion and drive even if that does not necessarily return any you
know, the return, in other words if he is not working in making money we are still taking
about empowering him and then utilizing their funds and their resources to be able to do
that and that is the priority.

CM: Yeah, it looks like he wanted what he likes in life, yeah.

MP: He is getting stuck in a life stages that is old and it is like the stage of a 12-year-old
who is still relying on their allowance from their parents.

Rahime: Absolutely.

MP: Instead of thinking I am 16. I am going to get a job; I am not going to sit around
and waiting for my dad’s money. I can go do it myself.

CM: Yeah, but Mark that is unrealistic in a wealthy family. He should be able to use
whatever funds he needs to pursue what he wants to pursue in life.

CM: No, yeah. I am not saying he should work. I am saying that what we should do is
they should make a plan and maybe even put a trusted family friend in charge of the
dispensation of the money and have it be unconditionally released for those things that
they agree on so they do not, it is not dependent on the father-son issue, or the
relationship, or on the father is on a bad mode that day so the son is not going to get to
schooling.

Rahime: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, got you, I totally got it.

CM: All right. Well, good luck with that.

Rahime: Thank you so much.

CM: Okay, Mark. I think it is…

MP: Okay.

CM: …time to end.

CM: All right. You know, I am having trouble with the Q&A questions and so I
apologies because for some reason they are not refreshing so I am trying to recover these
so we can answer them later but they are not, for some technical reason they are not
coming up. So we are on at 75 minutes and so I think we should, we should go ahead and
say goodbye and meet together.

CM: There were great questions. I want to thank everybody, really good questions.

MP: Yes, and if you have any more questions just go ahead and email them to

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[email protected]. You can write at length and we will save them

CM: Yes.

MP: Okay. All right everybody. Let us unmute and say goodbye to each other. We will
see each other next time. Thanks everyone.

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