RETRACTION

Understanding Retraction on World Cup

Look anyone can use a camera, it doesn't mean you know what you are seeing. Some people see leg extension and early pressure creation and pivoting, wherever they look. I hate to have people mis-interpret great skiing and denigrate it with personal bias, misuse and misunderstanding of the basic tenants of physics. Here in this montage is a perfect PMTS application of skiing at the highest level. In this montage, I can, as can many other educated skiers, describe exactly what this skier is making happen. in contrast: The uneducated coach, flounders around, trying to explain their bias and by justifying their impoverished skiing, with the likes of pivoting, leg extension, pressuring and hip rotation, non of which are demonstrated by this skier. Frame 1. Perfect balance, counteracting and counter balancing, and pole tap. Frame 2. Flexing to release, this is not deep retraction, as you often see in WC slalom. Frame 3. From 2 to 3 there is tipping off the edges when the lower body and skis are light, upper body is following tipping of lower body. Leading the tipping is the free foot creating a classic PMTS "O" frame. Frame 4. This is an important moment and change in the body relationships. The new inside ski is pulled back, the outside leg maintains snow contact, (not pressure) the outside foot is held back and as a result reentering of the hip, or CG is already occurring. Since there is no outward ski tail movement and the tail of the ski is following the tip of the ski, pure carving with ski tipping occurs.
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h.harb

Posts: 4356

Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:08 pm Location: Dumont, Colorado

e: Understanding Retraction on World Cup

Geoff, What is really funny is that two years ago they would have never acknowledged that retraction even existed, and they openly stated that World Cup skiers didn't retract, they said retraction was wrong, and everyone on the WC extended. Now, out of nowhere, they are experts on retraction, but don't know how to ski it. This is only part of a continuous chain of stories by the Epic crowd, as they have to more and more acknowledge that they are wrong about everything in skiing. Let's look back at their lengthy trail of misconceived, misdirected and misunderstood, concepts in their skiing and teaching. Epic Standards: Wide stance is everything, can't ski without a wide stance. Every racer should widen their stance, Harb skis with feet to narrow. Lifting the ski to release, no way, no one on the world cup lifts a ski, that's so out. Extension is the only way WC skiers release, rotation is king in racing. Hip steering is how you turn the ski. Pressure and extend the top of the radius. Retraction is not used by the best WC skiers. I don't know how anyone can take the time to even read their posts, or take these guys seriously, as they are always wrong and their posts and ideas are filled with misinformation, and it takes them at best 5 years to catch up with what we are already practicing in PMTS and at worst, ten years before they retract their old ways of thinking. It's been ten years and they have not realized yet, the movements we use in PMTS are what the world cup skier uses now. The other aspect that is obvious from the Epic crowd, is their constant disavowing and attempts at disproving what they don't know, or can't do in their own skiing. For example, I can carve turn after turn with retraction without a pivot and still stay forward on my skis. I have taught many everyday skiers to do it. Yet, Epic posts say this is not possible. If they can't carve turns with retraction and flexing, because they don't know how to get forward they justify it by saying it's impossible. They say they can't carve with retraction without a pivoting beginning, so just by that description, their turns or arcs are not carved to begin with. They Park and Ride, because they still don't believe in "Tipping" and they call Park and Ride Carving. It's not caving and neither is a pivot turn, the way they do it, has nothing to do with carving. They also believe that "Hockey Stops", are the same movements that are used by WC skiers. This is as ignorant a display of ineptitude as possibly can be conceived. Rather than learning how to ski efficiently themselves and become effective instructors with effective teaching approaches, they aspire instead to tear apart world cup skiers. They have no business in this arena, that's obvious.
Whatever you aspire to or dream, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic. Why waste your energy, time and funds practicing incorrectly when the right way is known? HARB SKI SYSTEMS, The Leader in Modern Ski Technique and Instruction!
h.harb

Posts: 4356

Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:08 pm Location: Dumont, Colorado

e: Understanding Retraction on World Cup

I'm with you, I used retracting when I was racing, as we all know I still use it. When I was training with the Canadian Ski Team I used to also train with J.P. and J.N.Augert, Werner Bleiner and Andre Bachleda all World Cup Winners. These guys we retracting, we all did or you didn't survive. I don't understand this fascination with pivoting. All top level World Cup skiers try to reduce, eliminate and control pivoting. Over on Epic they talk about it like it was something useful, desirable and required. This guy Rick is not only misinformed, he's wrong, and he can't ski. The nerve of a guy, who skis like he does, gives skiing advice and analyses World Cup skiing, and they listen to him and agree. How far down does that forum have to go before it discovers how off they are? The only way I used the word pivoting in my coaching years, was in this context, " You are pivoting, that's why you can't hold an edge".
Whatever you aspire to or dream, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic. Why waste your energy, time and funds practicing incorrectly when the right way is known? HARB SKI SYSTEMS, The Leader in Modern Ski Technique and Instruction!
h.harb

Posts: 4356 Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:08 pm Location: Dumont, Colorado

by Randall Pitt Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:09 pm

Rick H wrote:Big E,

Look at frame 2 and 3 of Hischer. Frame 2, his femurs are parallel, sorta. In frame 3, the left femur is diverging. Is it a result of a massive tip, or is it an intentional movement of the knee/femur? Rick H

Keep it close to the snow. Excellent example of free foot ankle eversion with delay of stance foot ankle inversion to buy time for center of gravity to seek optimal alignment for a strong skeletal stacked engagement of the long stance foot.
Randall Pitt

Posts: 28 Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:34 pm

by h.harb Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:54 pm

Excellent example of free foot ankle eversion with delay of stance foot ankle inversion to buy time for center of gravity to seek optimal alignment for a strong skeletal stacked engagement of the long stance foot.

Actually, the new free foot, (fig. 3) tipping toward the little toe edge, that makes the knee look bow-legged, is inverting and the new stance foot, is trying to evert, in transition, (fig. 2) it's not there yet. In figure.4 the stance foot is everted in the boot.

Re: Understanding Retraction on World Cup

Yes, using the knees has rarely demonstrated the feel and sensitivity needed to have finesse with the ski edge engagements. When you see a WC skier like on the thread about the Austrians at Adelboden, it looks violent, however the skier has an amazing sensitivity to what the edges are doing during this ramble with speed and direction changes. These sensitivities are available to the recreational skier, if they are taught the right awarenesses and use of the lower body. This is a huge weak point in teachings that focus on leg and foot, steering and extension.
Whatever you aspire to or dream, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic. Why waste your energy, time and funds practicing incorrectly when the right way is known? HARB SKI SYSTEMS, The Leader in Modern Ski Technique and Instruction!
h.harb

Posts: 4356 Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:08 pm Location: Dumont, Colorado

Re: Understanding Retraction on World Cup

h.harb wrote:

Actually, the new free foot, (fig. 3) tipping toward the little toe edge, that makes the knee look bow-legged, is inverting and the new stance foot, is trying to evert, in transition, (fig. 2) it's not there yet. In figure.4 the stance foot is everted in the boot.

My mistake. As you correctly point out, inversion and eversion should have been switched in my statement. Still think it's one of the best examples of delayedeversion of the stance foot while actively inverting the free foot. Nice to have PMTS movements demoed by one of the best slalom skiers in the WC. The movements are clear to see with no celebral posturing needed.
Randall Pitt

Posts: 28 Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:34 pm

Re: Inside Moves the Outside

by WNYSkier Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:43 am

John, What a great post! Simple and direct - this is the essence of PMTS. I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more of a response. I would go past tipping in your analysis of the role of the inside: The inside is predominant in almost all of the PMTS essentials. CB - raise the inside arm and/or the inside hip CA - advance the inside hip Flex into the turn - flex the inside leg Fore/Aft balance through the turn - pull back the inside foot Flex to release - OK that's the outside.... I am still amazed at how many coaches are focused on the outside leg. They always talk about wanting "parallel shins" as opposed to "A-frame", but when you mention starting edging movements by tipping the inside foot, which virtually guarantees parallel shins, they immediately dismiss the concept.
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WNYSkier

Posts: 43 Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:59 am Location: Western New York

Re: Inside Moves the Outside

Parallel shins through Transition to engagement is the goal. Free foot inversion and stance foot eversion engage the edges- in a word Tipping. Tipping and flexion of the inside leg increase to a point where flexion should track the thigh toward the mid line of the body (between the arm pit and sternum); resulting in non-parallel shins at the deepest range of inside leg flexion. The parallel leg shaft alignment is key in transition but it fades as flexion of the inside leg deepens through the arc. Trying to keep the shins parallel through the entire arc produces an awkward alignment of the free leg; abducted and externally rotated to the extream. Stance foot eversion is the key to edge hold. Foot Inversion may be the single most important move in skiing but in the "sequential switch" eversion can not be overlooked while emphasising LTE during the release and engagement.

I do not think this is contrary to PMTS. Any thoughts?

JR

Bolter

Posts: 328 Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:33 pm Location: Timberline WV

Inside Moves the Outside

Not at all, parallel leg shafts should only be the goal in the release and transition phase, until you use up femur rotation range. After that you develop a long leg/short leg relationship, where it's impossible and you should not have parallel leg shafts.
Whatever you aspire to or dream, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic. Why waste your energy, time and funds practicing incorrectly when the right way is known? HARB SKI SYSTEMS, The Leader in Modern Ski Technique and Instruction!
h.harb

Posts: 4356 Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:08 pm Location: Dumont, Colorado