Talking

Miniatures
Or how the Lincoln Model Railway and
Wargames Society changed the world

Volume 1
Talking Miniatures

Copyright © 2023 by Robin Dews and John Stallard

This publication is completely unofficial and is in no way affiliated with, or endorsed by, Games Workshop Limited. The authors of this
book have no legal connection or relationship to Games Workshop Limited.
GW, Games Workshop, Citadel, Black Library, Forge World, Warhammer, the Twin-tailed Comet logo, Warhammer 40,000, the ‘Aquila’
Double-headed Eagle logo, Space Marine, 40K, 40,000, Warhammer Age of Sigmar, Battletome, Stormcast Eternals, White Dwarf,
Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Space Hulk, Battlefleet Gothic, Dreadfleet, Mordheim, Inquisitor, Warmaster, Epic, Gorkamorka, and all
associated logos, illustrations, images, names, creatures, races, vehicles, locations, weapons, characters, and the distinctive likenesses
thereof, are either ® or TM, and/or © Games Workshop Limited, variably registered around the world. All Rights Reserved. Used
without permission. No challenge to their status intended.
All images of Citadel Miniatures and of pages from Games Workshop publications showing Citadel Miniatures or Games Workshop
products are used without permission and are included for the sole purpose of illustrating the points made by our interviewees in the
accompanying text.
No challenge whatsoever is intended to the status of any intellectual property rights of Games Workshop Limited, including, but not
limited to trademarks and copyrights of Games Workshop Limited.
All other trademarks referenced in this book are the property of their owners.
Dungeons & Dragons is a trademark of Wizards LLC, a division of Hasbro Corporation.
Fighting Fantasy is a trademark of Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone
While every effort has been made to trace the owners of copyright material reproduced herein, the publishers would like to apologise
for any mistakes or omissions and will be pleased to incorporate missing acknowledgments in any further editions.
Wherever possible, we sought and obtained the permission of the copyright holders of photographs and other material used
in this publication. There remain a very small number of images whose copyright holders it has not been possible to identify
despite best efforts; the holders of the copyright in any such photographs or other material are invited to make themselves
known to the publishers.
In all cases, photographs and images have been included for the sole purpose of illustrating the points made by our interviewees in
the accompanying text.

First published in Great Britain in 2023 by Shaggy Dog™ Publishing

The right of Robin Dews and John Stallard to be identified as the Authors of the Work has been asserted by them in accordance with
the Copyright Designs and patents Act 1988.

2 4 6 8 10 9 7 5 3 1

All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be copied, reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or
by any means without the prior written permission of the publisher, nor be otherwise circulated in any form of binding or cover other
than that in which it is published and without a similar condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser.

A CIP catalogue record for this book is available from the British Library.

ISBN – 978-1-915319-73-9

2
 Talking Miniatures

Contents
Volume 1 Volume 2
Foreword. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 The Miniatures Painters
How this book came about. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 Mike McVey. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 240
Why Talking Miniatures?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 Paul Robins . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 272
Acknowledgments. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
The White Dwarf Editors
The Miniature Designers Paul Sawyer & Robin Dews. . . . . . . . . . . . . 288
Alan & Michael Perry. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
The Salesmen, Craftsmen and Cat Herders
Bob Naismith . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42
Alan Merrett . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 316
Trish Carden . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 72
Anthony Epworth. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 352
The Game Designers Tim Pollard. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 374
Rick Priestley. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98 Richard Ellard. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 402
Andy Chambers. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 134 Chris Harbor. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430
Jervis Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 166 Andy Jones. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 448
Helen Morley. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 476
The Artists
Tony Ackland. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 198 Epilogue – into the future. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 490

Dedicated to
Mike Brunton
John Ellard
Paul Elsey
Wayne England
Richard Halliwell
Duncan MacFarlane
Andy ‘Pank’ Szczepankiewicz
Tim ‘Silverfox’ Wilson

And all the others who were part

of this story, but whose voices now
only echo in our memories

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Talking Miniatures

Foreword
The past is a foreign It is worth remembering too, Citadel of
country, as Hartley the ’70s and ’80s was a youthful company
writes in The Go- − there was no cadre of experienced
Between, and as I management to guide us, no tradition
was to be reminded of practice to draw upon, no ‘rulebook’
time and time again of how to do things. It is perhaps not
whilst reading the therefore surprising that our interviewees
many and varied often describe Citadel’s progress in terms
interviews in this of constant trial and error − of madcap
book. I suppose adventures into realms as diverse as music
I must have been publishing and live action roleplay − only
there too − a entrenching in the 1990s as the company
photograph cannot behind ‘Warhammer’.
Rick Priestley 2022 lie after all − but
memory is a tricksy Whilst not among our list of interviewees,
thing: a palimpsest John’s voice is ever-present as interviewer
overwritten by decades of reflection. Well, alongside that of Robin Dews, who also
here we have personal commentaries from compiled and edited the transcripts of the
some of the key people behind the story of many hours of recordings that make up the
Citadel Miniatures: folks who were there at conversations in this book. It was Robin who
the inception of a small model manufacturer also trawled through hundreds of old copies
under the roof of the Newark Folk Museum, of White Dwarf, begged or borrowed early
including some who would go on to spur Citadel Journals, mail order sheets and other
Citadel’s growth beneath the umbrella of hard-to-find publications and documents
Games Workshop, and others who would in order to perfectly illustrate those
oversee the company’s transformation into conversations. John’s own observations form
today’s multinational hobby business known an integral part of the overall account none-
and celebrated the world over. the-less, and offer a unique window onto the
operations of the sales and marketing arm
John Stallard has long wanted to make so vital to the growth and success of Citadel
some kind of record of the early days of Miniatures and Games Workshop.
Citadel Miniatures, and many is the time he
and I have sat down with a pint of ale and Together, we tell what we can of a collective
talked about how such a thing might be journey, only too aware of the lacunae that
achieved. John very quickly came to realise still remain as well as the missing voices of
that no one person could hope to tell that those no longer with us. This account must
story in its entirety. The perspective from serve as a tribute to all, past and present, and
the Citadel Studio forms a lengthy yarn in to a time that really was a ‘foreign country’.
itself, but it would be incomplete without an
account of manufacturing developments, Rick Priestley
the contribution of the sales teams, and March 2023
the hands-on steerage of managers
themselves, barely older than their often
wayward charges.

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 Talking Miniatures

How this book came about

This book started life
in a humble way, with
a casual conversation
between co-authors,
Robin Dews and John
Stallard, over a cup
of tea in John’s back
garden in the late
summer of 2016. We
were chatting about the
creative and commercial
success that Games
Workshop had become
as it roared into its
fourth decade. We
also remarked, with no
little sense of disbelief,
how, like so many other
people who’d joined
Robin and John visit the old Citadel factory and offices
the fledgling company
in Victoria Street Newark – August 2021
in the late 1970s and Photo: ERD Visual Media
early 1980s, we were
now on the verge of drawing our pensions! idea at the time, and given that between
Two old curmudgeons, ruminating on the the two of us we had worked for over sixty
passing of time. years, first at Citadel (in John’s case) and
then for Games Workshop (in both cases)
If memory holds true, I believe it was John and were personal friends with many of the
who first suggested that “someone ought early staff members such as Tony Ackland,
to write all this down before we all become Rick Priestley, Jervis Johnson, Alan and
too old and decrepit”. It seemed like a good Michael Perry, Bob Naismith, Trish Carden
and so on. We decided
that there was probably
no one better placed than
the pair of us to get this
done. So there and then,
under early autumn leaves
and fuelled by tea and
digestives, the idea
of Talking Miniatures
was born.

At around the same time,

or shortly afterwards, we
became aware that Games
Workshop’s original
founders, Ian Livingstone
and Steve Jackson, were
already working on a
book of their own – Dice
Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone in the mid-1970s Men: The Origin Story of
© Ian Livingstone and Steve Jackson Games Workshop.

5
Talking Miniatures
of gratitude to those
two young, maverick
entrepreneurs. Thank
you both for changing
our lives as well!

But what John and

I had in mind was a
slightly different story.
The Games Workshop
that exists today, to the
delight of its hobby
fans, still shares its
name with Steve and
Ian’s original 1975
London founding,
but back in the late-
1970s several new
East Midlands genes
began to intermingle
Citadel Miniatures’ first home at 48 Millgate, Newark in 2021 with its DNA.
Photo: ERD Visual Media
In Lincoln, two bright
That is indeed Steve and Ian’s story, and we schoolboys called Rick Priestley and Richard
wish to take nothing from them. They have ‘Hal’ Halliwell decided that they could write a
both rightfully earned their place in British better set of wargames rules than the rather
gaming history. Anyone who has ever rolled worthy ‘Wargames Research Group – Fantasy
a handful of weirdly faceted dice, battled Magic Supplement’ that they’d been using to
their way into the depths of a dungeon, or moderate their own fantasy battles.
gazed in awe at the shimmering jewel-like
quality of a beautifully painted miniature, Around the same time, not far away in
owes an enormous and enduring debt Nottingham, another toy soldier enthusiast,
designer, sculptor
and entrepreneur
called Bryan Ansell,
was looking for the
opportunity to set up
a business and make
some money out of
the rapidly growing
interest in fantasy
games and miniatures.
Bryan co-founded a
company called Asgard
Miniatures, with two
friends, and began to
assemble an eclectic
cast of designers,
sculptors, artists and
non-conformists
that included Jes
Goodwin, Nick Bibby,
Citadel Miniatures’ second home at Victoria Street, Newark in 2021 John Blanche and
Photo: ERD Visual Media Tony Ackland.

6
 Talking Miniatures
Then a couple of years later,
in 1979, Bryan left Asgard to
set up Citadel Miniatures as
the figure design and casting
division of Games Workshop.

Citadel retained Asgard’s

East Midlands base,
establishing its miniatures
casting foundry, sales and
mail order operations
in Newark-on-Trent. This
enabled Bryan to retain and
expand his circus troupe
of characters, to include
other such notables as Bob
Naismith, Dave Andrews,
Trish and Aly Morrison and a
young John Stallard.
Citadel Miniatures’ third home at Chewton Street, Eastwood, Nottingham in 2021
Four years later, in Photo: ERD Visual Media
1983, Citadel published
Warhammer – The Mass Combat Fantasy produced and sold has been either an
Role-playing Game. Written by Bryan, Hal iteration of Warhammer or Warhammer
and Rick, and illustrated by Tony Ackland 40,000, or an extension of those game-
with box art by John Blanche, it marked the worlds into new realms. From this
genesis of the modern Games Workshop. perspective, there should have been little
Four years later, in 1987, the company surprise when Games Workshop embarked
presented Rick’s Warhammer 40,000 – Rogue on a re-branding of its retail chain a few
Trader to an astonished gaming public, and years ago. Its more than four hundred
the transformation was complete. global stores are no longer called Games
Workshop. Visiting customers and hobbyists
Over the subsequent thirty-five years, every are now met with a single word above the
game or miniature that the company has door – ‘Warhammer’.

Games Workshop and Citadel Miniatures global HQ and home since 1997 in Willow Road, Nottingham
Photo: Robin Dews 2023

7
Talking Miniatures

Why Talking Miniatures?

Having decided to tell this story, of how a small In the end, the answer to how best to tell this
group of wargame and toy soldier enthusiasts story simply presented itself. Indeed, it was
came to evangelise the world, we were then there staring us in the face the whole time. As
faced with the problem of how to tell it? soon as we started to chat to our friends and
former colleagues about their memories of
For reasons far too mysterious to fathom, for
the early Citadel, their stories and recollections
the past one hundred years or so, the UK has
started to flow…
always been home to at least one major toy
soldier company that has delighted generation Our first ‘interviewee’ was the irascible Rick
after generation of young and not so young Priestley, way back in early spring 2017, and
enthusiasts. From the beginning of the 20th we immediately knew we’d struck gold. This
century, through to the late 1950s, this position was not so much an interview as three old
was held by a company called Britains. Later mates, sitting around, chewing the fat about
on, as plastic injection moulding changed the good old days. A comment from one of
the face of the industry, Airfix became the us would trigger an avalanche of memories
dominant player, entrancing children of the from the other two, often leaving us helpless
1960s and ’70s with their HO scale model kits with laughter. This was the only point at which
and matching boxes of plastic soldiers. And I harboured any doubts about our chosen
from the late 1970s, as the explosion of interest method. I simply thought that no one would
in science fiction and fantasy gaming took hold believe any of this, it was just too hilariously
in the popular imagination, this UK toy soldier improbable! Our heartfelt thanks go to all of
baton was picked up by Citadel, and surged the people who sat down and gave freely and
forward under the name Games Workshop. generously of their time. These are your stories
and so this is your book as much as ours.
John and I are storytellers rather than
historians, and so neither of us had an appetite In the end, and as with all good tales, truth
for a straightforward narrative timeline. often mingles with fiction and the realities of
Indeed, what makes the origins of Citadel so the early years of Citadel are almost, but not
interesting is the tale of how a small group quite, lost to memory. The simple truth is that
of enthusiasts, entrepreneurs and creative when folk are getting on with making a living
designers turned their passion for collecting – designing games and miniatures, figuring
and gaming with model soldiers into a out how to manufacture and distribute them,
business that would not only keep them fed opening stores and trying to increase sales in
and clothed, but also allow them to avoid order to pay the bills – there are far too many
getting proper jobs! other urgent tasks to get on with to consider
that in ten or twenty or even fifty years’
time, people will be fascinated to know and
understand how this all came about.
So that is how Talking Miniatures was born.
Pour yourself a nice cup of tea, put another log
on the fire, and draw your cloak around you.
My friends, we have a tale to tell…

Robin Dews & John Stallard

July 2023

Robin cracks up, as John attempts to keep a straight face!

© ERD Media 2021

8
 Talking Miniatures

Acknowledgements
We are completely and totally indebted to Helen Morley is our heroine, who took
the following people for generously giving our rambling sound recordings and Zoom
us their time, their voices, their memories conversations, and transcribed them into
and recollections and unfettered access to intelligible documents.
their personal collections of wonderful old
photographs, games, magazines, books Dylan Owen: graphic design and layout.
and miniatures.
Lyndsey Priestley our eagle-eyed
Alan and Michael Perry, Bob Naismith, proof-reader and editor.
Trish Carden, Rick Priestley, Andy Chambers,
Jervis Johnson, Tony Ackland, Mike McVey, Eric Revill-Dews who followed us around
Paul Robins, Paul Sawyer, Alan Merrett, with his camera and captured so many
Anthony ‘Ep’ Epworth, Tim Pollard, wonderful images.
Richard Ellard, Chris Harbor, Andy Jones,
Helen Morley and Ian Henzell David Wood for his love of model soldiers.
http://www.deartonyblair.co.uk/
Without the following people, this book
would have simply not been possible. Lost Minis Wiki
http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/
Trish Carden for the ‘Shaggy Dog’ logo.
Plastic Soldiers Review for their passion for
Steve Casey of Airfix. http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/
Collecting Citadel Miniatures
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/ Realm of Chaos Blogspot:
http://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com/
Richard Hale of The Stuff of Legends
for treasuring and preserving our past. David Soper
http://www.solegends.com Golden Demon Slayer Sword winner

Miniatures from
the stuff of legends
collection painted by:
Richard Abbot Roy Scorer
Giuseppe Chiafele Richard Scott
ex-Forgeworld painter Otherworld Miniatures
Mike Curry Adam Skinner
Martin Legg Andrew Taylor
Finlay Light Dee Taylor
Steve Mussared Steve Yates
‘Eavy Metal team

9
Alan & Michael
Perry
Robin and John take tea and jaffa cakes with the fabulous Perry Twins.
Talking Miniatures

A lan and Michael are twin

brothers, sometimes
referred to either as the
Perry brothers or the Perry twins. They
have played wargames since they were
young boys and are avid collectors of
antique armour, weapons and other
militaria. They studied art at A-level,
and started sculpting freelance for
Games Workshop in 1978, while still
at school. They joined the company in
1980 and became the longest-serving
members of the Games Workshop
Design Studio.

The pair have a passion for military Alan and Michael Perry – The Perry twins in 2022
history and love to recreate it. They Photo: ERD Visual Media
were members of Sir Marmaduke
Rawdon’s Regiment of Foote, which is a Royalist foot regiment of the King’s Army, part of the
British historical re-enactment group, the English Civil War Society. They have also belonged
to other re-enactment groups. With the help of John Stallard, they published a full-colour
facsimile of a unique officer’s handbook – The Art of Martial Discipline – which had been in
their collection for some years.

Aside from facial hair they look virtually identical, except that Michael lost part of his right arm
in 1996, following an accident loading a reproduction cannon during a re-enactment of the
Battle of Crécy in France. This was a very serious injury for a right-handed model sculptor and
illustrator, but he subsequently re-taught himself to sculpt and paint with his left hand.

Their own company – Perry Miniatures – currently produces twelve ranges on different
historical themes and they have also sculpted a range of 54mm World War I ANZACs for film
director Peter Jackson’s private collection.

Both brothers live in Nottingham, England.

RD: Hi, Alan and Michael, thanks for

sitting down with us, and providing
tea and biscuits to boot! Just to get
the conversation started, I want you
to go way back, way before there
was a Games Workshop or even a
Citadel Miniatures. When did you
guys first start to make toy soldiers?
Tell us that story.

AP: It goes back to when we were

maybe five or six years old, and we
started to make pipe cleaner men.
These were basically bent pipe
cleaners, with the wire wrapped
around for the head and pipe
cleaner arms and legs…
Left to right: Michael (obscured), Alan, Robin and John chat in Alan’s garden in 2022
Photo: ERD Visual Media RD: Literally using pipe cleaners?

12
 Alan & Michael Perry
AP: Yes. And we used to make hundreds of them with little felt tip faces.
Hundreds and hundreds of them, but they would never properly stand
up or anything. I don’t know how we managed to get them to stand up…

MP: It was just by bending the legs…

AP: That’s right, yeah. And they used to have little posable arms.

JS: Were they military models? Would you form them in units?

Both Perrys: No, not really!

Pipe cleaners are made of felted
AP: In our heads, they probably were, but no, not really. cotton with a flexible wire core. They
were used for, well… cleaning pipes!
JS: It was more of a skirmish kind of thing… Photo: Robin Dews

AP: Well, yes, kind of loose...

MP: It was the loose skirmish effect that we were going for…

JS: And were they warriors or creatures?

Both Perrys: Definitely warriors!

AP: Well, they didn’t have any headgear, and they didn’t have any kind of uniform. They were
just naked, obviously.

RD: Did they have weapons?

Both Perrys: No, they were just pipe cleaner men…

MP: But I think at the time, I think we were just getting into Airfix as well.

RD: So, when was this? Mid to late 1960s?

AP: Well, we were born in 1961, and so it would

have been the late ’60s.

MP: Yeah, late ’60s. So then Airfix took over for a

number of years really…

AP: We just collected them. A box every week.

RD: Like all kids at the time…

AP: Yeah, like all kids did.

MP: I think we still occasionally went back and made

plasticine figures and so on. But again, they weren’t
necessarily military.

RD: And was this collecting Airfix figures? I mean, Airfix Infantry Combat Group
was it just the boxes of soldiers, or was it the kits as John Stallard Collection
well, the whole Airfix hobby? © Airfix 1960

13
Talking Miniatures
AP: Yeah, it was the kits as well, the whole thing…

MP: Yes, and of course, Airfix only released

something like three or four boxes of model soldiers
a year, and so it was always quite a big event when
something new was released. You saw them in the
catalogue, but you never knew when they were going
to arrive. The Waterloo French Infantry, for example…

RD: I remember that was so exciting. I was twelve or

thirteen when they did the first Napoleonics. I almost
wet myself!

MP: Yes, but then there was a big gap between

that first French Infantry release and the Highland
Infantry, and so they had nothing to fight against… Airfix Waterloo French Artillery
I think it was a couple of years. John Stallard Collection
© Airfix 1972
AP: It’s the same with most manufacturers even now.
Their ambition exceeds their ability!

JS: But isn’t it odd that you guys, as Perry Miniatures,

now bring out more plastic toy soldier sets than
Airfix did at their height?

AP: No, it’s about the same…

MP: We bring out about four new sets a year.

JS: Well, it always seems like more to me!

MP: Well, I think it’s about three at the moment, but

four when we really get going.
Airfix Waterloo Highland Infantry
John Stallard Collection RD: So, let’s go back to where we were… You
© Airfix 1969 mentioned plasticine?

AP: Yes, after the pipe cleaners! But then, some time… It would have been the early ’70s…

MP: …going over to Milliput…

AP: Well, we were first introduced to...

MP: ...wood putty. The first thing we used when we started sculpting with something a bit
more permanent than plasticine was wood putty – the yellow stuff you get out of a tube. And
at the time, we must have put it on a mannequin. I can’t remember exactly what we used:
it might have been wire. But it was a long time before we realised, when we got to using
Milliput, that you had to have a wire armature, a skeleton, underneath.

AP: Well, a long time… It was about two or three models, I think.

MP: We just thought, “We don’t like the way they keep flopping over, they need something
in them.” I think, before then, it was probably cocktail sticks that we modelled our stuff on…
Cocktail sticks and wood putty. That was probably around 1973.

14
 Alan & Michael Perry
AP: Yeah, something like that. But also, around that time we were just getting interested in
proper metal toy soldiers. We used to go to a shop called Mike’s Models in North Finchley to
buy our miniatures. And one day, we were in the shop, when we saw this chap called Steve
Atwood sculpting figures behind the counter. And he was using this plumber’s putty called
Milliput, which was really intriguing.

At the time, we used to paint up large-scale Poste Militaire figures, and occasionally sell them
in the shop. But we never thought about actually making them ourselves out of this Milliput.

JS: So, were you two London boys then?

Both Perrys: Yeah, yes. North London…

AP: Palmers Green originally.

MP: So, Finchley was just a bus ride away, and we used to go into the shop every Saturday.

JS: The owner of Mike’s Models must have rubbed his hands with glee when you two turned
up every Saturday morning…

MP: Yeah, we used to go in there to buy Minifigs models, because it was the only shop that
stocked them that was within a bus ride of our home. Before then, we’d bought Hinchcliffe
figures, but only sparingly, because we didn’t really like the way the anatomy worked on
them. We always felt sorry for the Hinchcliffe horses, because their legs bent in so many
places – so many joints. So, we progressed to Minifigs, because you always knew what you
were going to get. Left foot forward, right foot back, and always the same size. Which, for
some reason, we really appreciated. Anyhow, we bought lots of Minifigs from Mike’s Models...

AP: And we’ve still got them in the garage…

MP: Yeah, still got them.

JS: It’s interesting… In the late ’70s or maybe early ’80s, there
was a bit of a geographical divide. Minifigs was a southern
company based down in Southampton, wasn’t it?

Both Perrys: That’s right.

JS: In fact, they were originally located in

Nottinghamshire… Newark, I think, which is a weird
twist of history. But then they moved to Southampton.
On the other hand, Hinchcliffe was up in Yorkshire.

MP: Yeah, yeah.

You Dirty Rat! – Hand-sculpted
JS: And there was definitely a North-South divide. If I’m Milliput model – Alan Perry
a northerner, then I’m collecting Hinchcliffe. Photo: ERD Visual Media

AP: I don’t think we were aware of that.

JS: Well, we Midlands boys were! It was

certainly a northern thing – Hinchcliffe.

AP: Well, you could tell, couldn’t you...

15
Talking Miniatures
JS: I couldn’t possibly say…

AP: Swiftly moving on… So, when we began to properly make models, we started out
using Milliput.

JS: Just for our readers… What is Milliput?

AP: Milliput is a two-part epoxy putty. It’s quite harsh, but it does work, and for twenty years,
maybe longer, it was the main sculpting material we used.

RD: It was originally developed for use in plumbing, wasn’t it? For sealing pipes and gaps in
water tanks and pipework.

AP: Yeah, that’s right. But when you are making miniatures, it’s best to leave it a little while to
cure, after you mix the two parts together. When you first mix it, Milliput is a bit sticky, but after
a while, it becomes more leathery, and is easier to work

MP: It’s still useful for some things but I wouldn’t really want to make miniatures with it
these days.

AP: We used it when we used to make these…

[At this point, Alan got up and wandered away from the table and came back a few minutes
later with a large, beautifully hand-sculpted cavalry model.]

AP: That’s one I made…

MP: We used to make these 90mm military models… Ye Old Hand-Gun – Hand-sculpted
Milliput model – Alan Perry
RD: So that’s not a casting, it’s just Photo: ERD Visual Media
pure Milliput?

MP: Yes, that’s all Milliput, and bits of

broken plastic…

JS: Crikey!

[Alan then produces a second

exquisite figure.]

AP: We made these in the mid ’70s…

MP: Yeah, out of Milliput.

JS: There are a couple of cavalry models

we’re looking at here, and they’re
really very splendid. Very dynamic,
incredibly dynamic and…

RD: The horses are

just fabulous…

JS: Yes, the horses are very

spirited, aren’t they?

16
 Alan & Michael Perry

The Router – Hand-sculpted

Milliput model – Alan Perry
Photo: ERD Visual Media

RD: Yeah, the poses…

MP: We used to enter competitions for the British Model Soldier Society, and these are just a
couple of examples. We have lots of them in the garage.

AP: Yes, loads of them, but they are a bit dusty…

MP: …and a bit dated now.

RD: Wow! They are amazing. OK, so you’d discovered Milliput and were starting to use
wire armatures?

AP: Yeah, I think it was Steve Atwood who said, “You need to put an armature in, it needs to
be a bit stronger.”

MP: I don’t remember that. I thought we just figured it out through trial and error…

AP: Was it? Anyway, one of the first figures I made using a wire armature to support the
Milliput was a little demon, a fantasy figure, which ended up looking a bit like… What’s his
name, the 1930s’ dancer?

MP: Fred Astaire…

AP: Yeah, Fred Astaire. It looked just like Fred Astaire. I don’t know why, I hadn’t got him in my
head or anything…

JS: A Fred Astaire demon?

AP: Yeah, a little green demon…

17
 Talking Miniatures
RD: So, you were making all these as
one-off models? The idea of casting them
hadn’t come yet?

Both Perrys: Oh, no. Not at that stage.

RD: So, all of these were actually unique

one-off sculpts.

AP: Yes, and of course, they were nearly always

bigger than the miniatures we make now…

RD: So larger than 28mm?

MP: Yes 90mm, 54mm or 75mm. All the

standard sizes for the competitions at the time.

RD: So, these were all created as entries into

military modelling competitions? Poste Militaire Catalogue – Alan and Michael Perry Collection
© Ray Lamb – Poste Militaire
AP: Yeah, we used to enter maybe two or three
a year, or something like that.

JS: Did you ever win?

Both Perrys: Yes, quite often.

JS: I am not surprised!

AP: Yeah, actually one model I particularly remember

was your Zulu War diorama…

MP: Oh yes. I did a Zulu warrior leaping over a

downed Boer, with his horse flailing about beneath
Ju I Ju I Ju I – him. And I was quite pleased with it, as I like making
Hand-sculpted Milliput horses. And I was pulled up by one of the judges…
model – Michael Perry
Photo: Robin Dews AP: …it was quite dramatic.

MP: Yes it was. The judges all went off

together, and there was a hushed
conversation, and then they cleared the
room. One of the judges then called
me in and said: “This is supposed to be
a scratch-built category, Michael, but
it appears that you’ve used the head
of a Poste Militaire horse. It looks
like you’ve chopped it off and
added it to your model?” And so,
of course I replied, “Well, that’s a
great compliment but no, it was all
sculpted by hand.”

18
 Alan & Michael Perry

1st Madras Fusilier –

Hand-sculpted Milliput
model – Alan Perry.
Photo: ERD Visual Media

AP: Because Poste Militaire and their sculptor Ray Lamb were absolutely top-notch at the time.

MP: And I just thought to myself, “God, that’s amazing!” But what I said was, “If you scrape
some paint off the horse’s head, you’ll see that it’s all Milliput.” And he just replied, “Oh, it’s
all right, I don’t need to do that.” And so, he believed me. And yes, as I remember, I won first
prize in that particular category. But what was really nice, was to have my work compared to
Ray Lamb’s at Poste Militaire. It was very flattering.

RD: And how old were you, Michael?

MP: Oh, I think that was in the mid ‘70s, and I would have been fifteen or sixteen. Something
like that…

RD: How brilliant was that?

JS: And what did your mum and dad think about all this?

Both Perrys: Of course, they both loved it.

JS: And where did it all come from? Your mum and dad, are they talented?

AP: Mum is a very good… Well, she wouldn’t have said she was a good artist, but she was a
very good artist.

MP: Yeah. And dad was an electrician by trade… Originally, he wanted to be a carpenter, but
ended up being an electrician. When he left the RAF, he wanted to do carpentry, but they
said, “Oh no, people won’t want that in the future. You need to be in something else.”

19
Talking Miniatures
RD: This is post-war England with lots of construction work?

MP: Yeah. So, he said, “OK, I’ll be an electrician then.”

RD: And your mum, you said she was an artist, was that a painter?

AP: She only just dabbled in it. But yeah, I think she was a lot better than she always claimed.

RD: Right, so she was an amateur painter.

AP: Yeah, so there might have been a bit of a spillover. Dad couldn’t paint. The best thing he
could draw was an aircraft in a cloud!

RD: So, your mum and dad were delighted that you were making these models, entering and
indeed winning competitions…

AP: Yeah. I don’t think our dad was particularly happy about taking us to the competitions.
Sometimes they were in deepest darkest Norfolk, so he had to drive us there. But they were
incredibly happy when we won!

MP: We also did quite a lot of painting at the time, as kids, as teenagers. We did oil paintings.
And although we didn’t really sell any, we gave loads away as presents to relatives. Mum was
always happy that we painted as well.

White Dwarf 3 – Tally Ho Games advert White Dwarf 6 – Dalling Road store advert
Robin Dews Collection Trish Carden Collection
© Games Workshop 1977 © Games Workshop 1978

20
 Alan & Michael Perry
JS: And so, there’s quite a few Perry originals
knocking about, somewhere in the world.

AP: Oh yes, there are...

RD: OK, that’s how you started making toy

soldiers. So how did this turn from a hobby that
the two of you had, into something professional?
How did you then make contact with… I guess it
must have been Bryan Ansell?

MP: Well, that all happened at Mike’s Models

in Finchley. There was another shop next door,
a games shop. I can’t remember the name of it
now.

AP: It was Tally Ho Games…

MP: Yes, that’s right… Tally Ho Games had just

opened their shop, selling purely fantasy games
and miniatures. And Steve, the sculptor we’d
met at Mike’s Models, had been chatting to
them about this and that, and they told him that
they were looking for sculptors who could make
fantasy figures for them. So, he told us about
this conversation, and at the time, we didn’t care
whether we made fantasy or historical. So, we
said, “Yeah, OK, we’ll do that. What do we need Citadel 54mm range – Michael and Alan Perry
to do?” And Steve just said, “Well, they have Citadel Miniatures catalogue 1980
to be smaller. About an inch and a half tall, the Lindsey Priestley Collection
same size as Minifigs.” © Games Workshop 1980

And so, we just made a bunch of various kinds of random fantasy models, you know – goblins,
warriors, wizards – that sort of thing…

AP: …all loosely based on the Minifigs ranges.

MP: So, we got the address where we needed to take them, and we phoned up and they
said, “Oh yeah, come down to Hammersmith – Dalling Road in Hammersmith – and we’ll take
a look at what you’ve got.” So, I think we sculpted… I can’t remember now, probably half a
dozen figures each or something like that…

RD: And you took them over to Games Workshop in Dalling Road?

MP: Yes. We went over with these miniatures and were taken up to the offices above the
shop. We’d already been gobsmacked by the set-up in the store downstairs because it wasn’t
at all like Mike’s Models. They had all of these wonderfully painted miniatures in cabinets,
loads of games on the walls and everything, it was just amazing.

AP: And John Olsen was working downstairs.

MP: Tim or John. It might have been John…

AP: The two American brothers…

21
Talking Miniatures
MP: Yes. the Olsen brothers. Tim Olsen and John
Olsen. They were both very friendly and jolly…

JS: Yeah, genuinely nice guys…

MP: Yes, so we went upstairs and met with a

guy called Albie Fiore. And Ian Livingstone and
Steve Jackson were also there, together with
around three or four others.

RD: This was in the Games Workshop office

above the shop?

Both Perrys: Yeah…

AP: It was pretty cramped up there really.

MP: Yeah, it was. So, we sat down and showed

them the figures and they seemed quite excited
by them. I think that up to that point, Bryan
Ansell had made a few figures for them, and
they’d also worked with a sculptor with the
splendid name of Humphrey Leadbitter. I think
he was their first proper paid designer.

And so, yeah, they said that they loved the

models and they wanted us to make more. And
Citadel Dark Ages range – Michael Perry we then agreed a price. We told them that we
Citadel Miniatures catalogue 1980 were spending about five hours to make each
Lindsey Priestley Collection figure, and so they said, “OK, so how does £3 an
© Games Workshop 1980 hour sound?”

AP: And we thought, “Ooh, that’s big money…”

MP: Well, it was. We were both sixteen, so £15 a figure was a massive amount. I mean, before
then, we’d both been doing a paper round, for which we were paid £1.20 per week! We soon
stopped that!

So, pretty much there and then, they said, “Great, we’ll take you on as freelancers.” I mean, it
was amazing, we were both still at school at the time.

RD: Apart from the money, this was also a big transition. Up until then, the figures you’d
been making had all been one-offs. The models you now started designing were going to be
moulded and cast.

Both Perrys: Yeah, that’s right.

RD: How did you adapt to that?

AP: Trial and error, mostly error!

MP: Yeah, we didn’t really know or understand what the restrictions were really…

AP: Nobody told us.

22
 Alan & Michael Perry
MP: That’s right, nobody told us, we weren’t instructed and so we just learned by error. So
obviously, with Milliput, when you get it back, after it’s been crushed in a mould press, there’s
really nothing left, it’s in pieces… With green stuff, you do get back the original, near enough
intact. But there was one occasion, I remember, when I got a call from Bryan Ansell, who was
by then at Citadel, in charge of all the actual mould making…

AP: We’d previously met Bryan, maybe the second or third time we went to Dalling Road.

MP: Yes, that’s right. So, Bryan was in charge of Citadel Miniatures at the time, running the
factory up in Newark. And I got this angry phone call from him where he said, “What the hell
did you put in that tusker?” I’d given them a goblin tusker – a boar rider – which was one
of the first things I’d made. And although it was sculpted in Milliput, I’d modelled it over a
plasticine centre…

AP: It was a little bomb!

MP: And I hadn’t told Bryan, because I didn’t know it would be a problem. So, when he put
the mould into the vulcanising press, the tusker exploded!

RD: The plasticine boiled out…

MP: Yeah, I’d sculpted the tusker with a thick crust of Milliput, then there was this gap in the
centre filled with plasticine. So, when Bryan put the mould in the press, under what is it? One
hundred and fifty degrees, and a few tons per square inch? Well, all of a sudden, bang! It
blew up. So Bryan is yelling down the phone, “Don’t ever do that again!”

MP: So, we didn’t. We learned by bitter trial and error.

RD: So, at this point, you’re working freelance, you’re making these fantasy models, you’re
handing in the masters at Dalling Road, and you are getting paid! Tell me how you began
to develop your relationship with Bryan, who’s up in Newark, running Citadel Miniatures at
this time.

AP: Yeah, well… We were

introduced to Bryan for the first
time at Dalling Road. And then
one day, Ian Livingstone said
to us, “Do you want to go up
to Newark, and take your next
batch of models straight to the
factory?” And of course, we
both went, “Yeah!” so all three
of us crammed into his tiny
sports car…

MP: I don’t know what it was, it

was a fantastic-looking car, some
kind of Corvette or something.

And so, we climb in there, and

Alan and I are crammed in the
back, and we thought, “It looks
great from the outside, but Alan and Michael tell tall stories to Robin and John, 2022
there’s not much room in here…” Photo: ERD Visual Media

23
Talking Miniatures
AP: And I think it was possibly the first time Ian
had been up there as well, because he was quite
fascinated by the factory, which was at Millgate
at the time, above the Newark Folk Museum.
This was a really old Victorian building, and so
there were great gaps in the floorboards. All of
the casting machines were located on the upper
floor, and so whenever there was a spillage,
molten lead would drip through onto the heads
of the unsuspecting Museum visitors below!

MP: Actually, I think that by the time it hit the

floor, it would have cooled… It would be solid
by then…

RD: Just like a shot tower.

AP: Yeah, exactly. And I remember, when we

were driving back, we were all quite buzzing
about what we’d seen, and Bryan had let us
pour some metal, he’d let us do some casting as
well. And then Ian saw one of those raspberry
picking sites by the side of the road. So, he
stopped and said, “Come on, let’s get some
raspberries.” So we all jumped out of the car
and started picking raspberries.

MP: Which was a relief, as the car was very

Citadel Miniatures Catalogue 1983
Lindsey Priestley Collection cramped and it was good to get out, stretch our
© Games Workshop 1983 legs, and get some fresh air.

AP: I know we’re both quite small, but Hammersmith to Newark and back is a three-hundred-
mile round trip, and we are not THAT small!

RD: Excellent. So, you’d gone up and met with Bryan. And I guess that you’d learned a little
bit more about the moulding and casting process.

Both Perrys: Yes!

RD: And what was the effect of that? How did that knowledge flow back into your designs?
Did you change the way you were working?

MP: Yeah, they all became flat, all the figures! Yeah, we lost all the animation…

JS: I’m told in the industry that it’s a fight to the death between designers who want to
make interesting, animated, figures, and the damned mould makers, who insist you make
everything dull, or flat if possible. No detail, everything smoothed off…

AP: Yeah, exactly. For them, an egg would be the ideal figure.

JS: Yes, and it’s even worse because the casters love to get their hands on big models,
because they’re easy to cast, and they also get a big bonus for doing it. And so, they’re
working all the time against finely detailed miniatures. So, it’s quite a game, isn’t it, to get your
designs through into production?

24
 Alan & Michael Perry
MP: Yes. Of course, we have always tried hard
to push the boundaries as far as we can. And
then obviously in time they’ll rip the moulds…
I don’t think the casters particularly appreciated
the Imperial dragon I made in the 1980s.

JS: The enormous dragon…

MP: Yeah, the really big one, the chicken dragon…

JS: It did look like a chicken…

AP: Yes, well It was the size of a chicken!

JS: It was huge...

Both Perrys: Yeah.

JS: And expensive, almost fifty pounds, but very

wonderful. It had to have paper wings, didn’t it?

MP: Tin foil. I used tin foil anyway, but I

suppose you could use paper. It was way
too heavy to have metal wings, it would have
just collapsed.

JS: It was a bonkers kit, it really was. But

sometimes a company has to do something Citadel Miniatures Catalogue 1983
outrageous. That dragon made a big statement Lindsey Priestley Collection
about Citadel and its ambitions. © Games Workshop 1983

Citadel Imperial Dragon

Painted by Lindsey Priestley
Lindsey Priestley Collection
© Games Workshop 1983

25
Talking Miniatures
MP: Even as I made it, I kept thinking to myself, “I just don’t know
how we are going to be able to cast this.” The master was first of all
chopped up into slices, like a Swiss roll, but even then, the sections
were too wide for the mould. I seem to recall that it was Hal who cut
the mould in the end, and who got it all to work.

JS: The same Hal that wrote the first edition of Warhammer –
Richard Halliwell?

AP: Yeah, he was mould making and casting at the time and
solved the problem. Even so, I still think that it was a pain to cast,
and he hated doing them.

MP: I think Alan Merrett had a go at casting it as well, and he

swore at lot!

JS: Alan swearing, surely not…

MP: And then Bryan said, “Can you write out some instructions
on how to put this thing together?” So I drew up a set of assembly
diagrams and made a list of the tools you’d need. And in amongst
the Araldite, saw, files, pin-vice and so on, I also included ‘a large Citadel Giant. Sculpted by
Alan Perry – Painted by Dee Taylor
hammer’. But when Bryan saw it, he went mad, and shouted, “You
Photo Courtesy of The Stuff of Legends
can’t put that in!” So it was sadly edited out.
© Games Workshop 1983

AP: And you did indeed need a hammer!

JS: I used to sell it in mail order, as I had just joined

Citadel when that came out. It was in a big box with a
printed loose-leaf cover on top…

JS: And the Citadel giant was another one that

possibly you two made?

Both Perrys: Yeah.

JS: It was a charming piece, and I imagine you can still

get them on eBay…

Both Perrys: No, not really, they only come up

very rarely.

AP: You’ve got one, haven’t you, Mike?

MP: Yeah, I’ve got one. Yeah.

JS: Good for you.

MP: Yeah, I’m sure I’ve got another one in bits

somewhere as well, probably still in its original box.
Citadel Giant. Sculpted by Alan Perry
– Painted by Adam Skinner RD: And how would a commission like that come
Photo Courtesy of The Stuff of Legends around? I mean, would somebody just say we need a
© Games Workshop 1983 really big dragon or a giant! How would that happen?

26
 Alan & Michael Perry
MP: I can’t remember really, they just seemed like a good idea at the time…

RD: Because everything we’ve just talked about is pre-Warhammer, isn’t it? Hal and Rick have yet
to start work on the first edition, so it’s still the glory days of D&D and other roleplaying games.

Both Perrys: That’s right…

AP: The thing is, because we’d started out making very large-scale military models, like the
Poste Militaire stuff, making giants and big monsters was quite fun for us to do.

RD: Because everything else you were sculpting for Citadel was 25-28mm?

AP: Yeah, so for us, it was just fun to do. I don’t think anyone actually told us to do it. I
can’t remember…

MP: I mean a lot of the time, we would just make up figures… A good example was the
fanatics. You remember, the goblin fanatics swinging their ball and chain? We originally made
those while on holiday, we weren’t even working. It was just something we did for fun. Then,
when we got back to the Studio, we showed them to Rick, who immediately said, “Oh, yeah,
that would be fun. I can see how that
might work.” And that’s how they
made it into the game.

RD: That’s a cool and crazy idea…

We’ll do that!

JS: And they were hugely popular.

Whimsy and wit is what you were
putting into the models, and you two
were well known for it. You’re not too
serious, you like a laugh… You can
do the extremely serious, historically
accurate button-counting stuff, or you
can just go barmy and make things like
goblin fanatics, which are hilarious.

AP: Later on, Kev Adams remade the

fanatics as part of the night goblin
range and he did a really good job
with them.

RD: We’ve just gone on a long,

meandering, but hugely entertaining
diversion but I want to pull the
conversation back onto some sort of
timeline. You were talking about how
you first met Steve and Ian in the late
1970s and then started working as
freelance sculptors for Citadel, while
both still at school. Can you tell us what
happened next? How did you make the
transition from freelancing schoolboys White Dwarf 153 – Night Goblins advert
to working full-time for Citadel Robin Dews Collection
Miniatures? How did that come about? © Games Workshop 1992

27
Talking Miniatures
AP: Well, we left school. It was literally that simple. We
left school and they said, “Do you want a job, a full-time
job?” So, we said, “Yes please.”

MP: I can’t think of anything better to do and we were

both very happy to say, “Yes.”

JS: How wise you were…

RD: And where were you working? Were you still working
from home as freelancers or were you in an office?

MP: No, we were still living at home at mum and

dad’s. They had moved by then, to Goff’s Oak in
Hertfordshire, the other side of the M25, so we sort of
took over the conservatory at the back of the house as
our sculpting den.

AP: Yeah, we did that for about five years.

RD: Actually, when we sat down for our chat with Alan
Merrett, he told us a great story about coming down to
visit you at your mum and dad’s.

Both Perrys: Oh, yes?

Alan and Michael in the mid ‘80s RD: He recounted driving down to this lovely, rural
Photo: Trish Carden Collection Hertfordshire home, and then being shown through
to the conservatory by your mum. And there were
the two of you, sitting either side of a table, piled high with bits of modelling putty, parts of
figures, heads, limbs, weapons, all manner of stuff. And then your mum brought in the tea and
biscuits, as if this was all perfectly normal.

AP: Well, it was for us. That’s how we worked, including the mounds of bits…

RD: So, you were living at home. You were working from home. And you were getting paid a
wage by Citadel?

AP: Yeah, it was great, it was

perfect. We didn’t want to do
anything else!

MP: Yeah. Of course, we still kept

going into Dalling Road, where
the Games Workshop head office
was at the time. You know, to take
in our sculpts and so on. I can’t
exactly remember when it all
shifted, and the HQ moved up
to Nottingham.

AP: Well at that time, Citadel was

still in Newark and we were going Left to right: Bob Naismith (out of shot), Nick Lund, Michael and Alan at an early Games Day
up there for many years. Photo: Trish Carden Collection

28
 Alan & Michael Perry
MP: Yes, that’s right, that’s true.

RD: Citadel must have moved

from Millgate to Victoria Street
by that time?

AP: Yeah, I think they were only

at Millgate for two or three years.
And then, after that move, when
we went up to the new place in
Victoria Street, they would give
us a bit of space in the office…

MP: Well, a spare desk…

AP: So we could also design

and make figures up there.

MP: They kept asking us

to move up to work. Bryan
would say, “Can you move up?
White Dwarf 221 – John Stallard, Michael Perry, Alan Perry and Jim Butler roll dice! Everything would be easier
Robin Dews Collection if you came to work up here
© Games Workshop 1998
in Newark.”

AP: And so we kept having to say no…

MP: We were simply happy where we were. We were very comfortable at home, all of our
mates were down there. Obviously, we did have some other mates in Newark but…

AP: Well, I’d say, that after about ten years, we actually knew more people in the Nottingham
area than we did down there, and so…

MP: Yeah, it was only later, in 1987, when my girlfriend got a place at Nottingham University,
that we decided to move up here permanently.

RD: And it was in this time period, the early 1980s, that the first edition of Warhammer was
published. That must have had a huge impact on everyone working at Citadel?

Both Perrys: Oh yes, yes of course.

MP: Yeah, we never really got involved in the operations of the business. We lived in our
own miniature world, so to speak. But of course, we realised that the whole thing was getting
bigger, and that there were more and more new people coming into the company. You’d just
see someone you didn’t recognise, and say, “Who’s that? What do they do? When did they
start?” And the answer would always be… “Oh, a few weeks ago!”

AP: But when Warhammer was being developed, we always tried to get involved. If we were
up in Newark and they’d be doing some playtesting, we would always try to join in…

RD: And this would be with Hal and Rick?

MP: Yeah, and sometimes we’d meet up and playtest games at John’s house, or the house he
shared with Ep and Rick, to try out new ideas with Warhammer.

29
Talking Miniatures
JS: Yeah, that’s right…

MP: And occasionally

have dinner…

RD: It sounds like

the perfect evening
– dinner and toy
soldiers, just like HG
Wells…

AP: Yeah, and

afterwards, there
would usually be a
party somewhere…

Landsknecht Knights JS: Oh, there was

Library Image always a party! We were all so
young… So, tell me, what would be
a working day for the Perry twins?
How would your day be set, once
you’d moved up to Nottingham
and joined the Design Studio?
Would you know what you would be
making that day?

AP: Well. We moved up in 1987 and

so by then, yes, it was very much
more organised…

MP: …far more established

really, yeah.

MP: Obviously, with a lot more

publications coming out, we had to
make everything to tie in with the
release schedule. Before then, we still
had to work to a product plan, but
we also had a bit more leeway…
You know, if we thought of an idea,
and then it got the OK, we could
just go ahead and make it – make a
sample figure.

JS: And so, would your idea be OK’d

by Bryan, or Alan, or a combination
of the two?

MP: I seem to remember the first

one would go to Alan, and then he
would normally take it to Bryan. But
White Dwarf 149 – Empire advert. Miniatures by Alan and Michael Perry sometimes, Bryan would just walk
Robin Dews Collection into our office for a chat, and an idea
© Games Workshop 1992 would come out of that conversation.

30
 Alan & Michael Perry
AP: A good example is the Warhammer
Empire range. You know, we just started
working on some fancy Landsknechts.

MP: Well, they weren’t that fancy… They

were mostly historical.

JS: So, could it be said that you were just

sneaking some historical miniatures into
Warhammer through the back door?

AP: Mmm, yes, you could say that, yeah.

MP: Yes, but Bryan always realised that we

preferred making historical stuff to pure
fantasy and so he didn’t mind.

JS: Well, they sold very well.

AP: Yes, they did, they were quite a

popular army.

MP: And then there were the

Warhammer Bretonnians. That was
another one, which although I don’t
think they sold quite as well as the
Empire, were almost entirely historical.

RD: And then amongst your most loved Codex Imperial Guard – Cover Art Dave Gallagher
figures, have got to be the Catachan jungle Jervis Johnson Collection
fighters for 40K. © Games Workshop 1995

MP: Oh yeah. That was all a bit later and it was all a bit weird! I don’t mean weird in a bad way.
It’s just that none of the Imperial Guard models were selling particularly well at the time. The
designs were all a bit over the place, weren’t they?

RD: Yeah, there was no strong central image, it was all a bit generic sci-fi, you know, ‘Starship
Troopers’ and the like.

MP: So, I think it was maybe Alan Merrett, or Rick or somebody who basically said, “We need
Imperial Guard regiments that are recruited from different planets, and different campaigns.”
I’m not sure where Catachan came from or if it was it was in the background beforehand…

RD: Well, it was… Rick had included a couple of references to Catachan in the ‘Age of the
Imperium’ section at the back of 40K – Rogue Trader. One of these was for a creature called a
‘Catachan face eater’ which was another of Rick’s gags.

AP: Yeah, that sounds like Rick…

MP: And then I remember Alan Merrett saying, “I’m looking for something like a Rambo kind
of figure.” And so, I thought, “Mmm OK, so wearing a bandana, and dressed in a vest… very
muscly.” And I remember doing a few sketches, and then I was walking around the Studio,
and I saw one of the miniature painters, one of the ’Eavy Metal team, I can’t remember his
name. One of the painters was wearing these really heavy boots, kind of almost military boots

31
Talking Miniatures
but with metal plates on, the sort that Goths
and Metal Heads wore back then. And so I
said, “Oh, can I just draw those?” And that’s
how the Catachans got their boots…

And we just could not believe it when

they were released. You’ll remember, at
the time, that all the miniature designers
were still receiving royalty payments. In
addition to our salaries, we were also paid
a percentage of the sales of the miniatures
we’d designed as a bonus. Well, when
those models went out, we received
some very nice cheques indeed! And it
was not long afterwards that the senior
management decided to eliminate those
extra royalty payments!

JS: They caught the mood, didn’t they,

particularly in America, as they probably
looked like Vietnam veterans…

MP: Yes, exactly…

JS: And they certainly gave a huge shot to

the Imperial Guard, and made it a genuinely
exciting Warhammer 40,000 army, with all
the other regiments that followed.

MP: I also made a 54mm female Catachan

jungle fighter. White Dwarf 194 – ‘Eavy Metal Masterclass female Catachan fighter
Robin Dews Collection
RD: I remember that... © Games Workshop 1996

MP: Yeah, I just made it for myself, as a one-off. It was coming up to Games Day in 1996,
and GW employees were not allowed to enter the normal Golden Demon competition,
with a chance of winning the slayer sword. Instead, we’d created the Open Category, into
which anyone could enter, including staff, and which was a showcase for brilliant models
and dioramas.

Anyway, I finished the sculpt and I was going to paint it myself, when Mike McVey saw it, and
said to me, “Do you mind if I paint that?” And so, I said, “Oh, but you’re going to be one of
the judges. If you paint it, then I can’t put it in the competition.” But he was so insistent that in
the end, I just gave in and said, “OK… go on then.” And so, he painted it, and then of course, I
couldn’t enter it into the Open.

AP: Well, no, you couldn’t, no…

MP: Sadly no… But I’ve still got it at home.

RD: I remember that model, we must have published a photo of it in White Dwarf.

AP: Yes, that’s right, you did. It appeared one of Mike McVey’s ’Eavy Metal Masterclass
features in White Dwarf.

32
 Alan & Michael Perry
RD: So, just to jump back a bit… The first edition of Warhammer had come out in 1983, and it
had been, for the time, a big success, it sold out. And then interestingly, Bryan didn’t say, “Oh
quick, let’s reprint it.” Instead, he decided, “Right, that seems to have worked. Now let’s do
another edition, we’ll publish a second edition.” So, we had the ‘Harry the Hammer’ edition,
with the John Blanche cover. And that was then followed with a second edition, the red box
version, a year later in 1984, that contained not only the rules and magic books, but also
some cardboard cut-out figures.

MP: Oh yes, the original slann drawings.

RD: Yeah, that first early stab at Lustria, with Rick’s jokes about Skeggi and all the rest of it.
And then at some point around there, 40K must have happened. I think that Rogue Trader
was released around that time, just after the third edition of Warhammer which, of course,
was also a book.

MP: I remember playtesting it, at Bryan’s house…

AP: Yeah, that’s right. We went over to playtest 40K at Bryan’s,

and I remember that he didn’t have any sci-fi scenery…

MP: So, he went off to the kitchen cupboard and started

taking out all these tins of baked beans and other cans. Then
he ripped all the labels off and started placing them on the
table to use as buildings and cover…

JS: Well, he couldn’t afford decent terrain, could he?

MP: And Diane was just standing there going, “What on earth
are you doing? How will we know what’s what?”

AP: In the end, there were about twenty different cans on

the table…

JS: Space Marines… Assault the Fray Bentos corned beef!

MP: Yeah, and so for the next couple of weeks, I think that
they probably had a few very unusual meals.

RD: Brilliant! So that was playtesting 40K. Was Rick also

around that evening?

MP: No, he wasn’t there on that occasion, it was just us

and Bryan…

AP: And somewhere, I’m sure I’ve got it somewhere… I still

have those original 40K rules sheets with Bryan’s hand-written
amendments on them.

RD: Oh, really?

MP: Yes, because at the time, Rick was still working on the
manuscript, and he’d given a version of it to Bryan so that Alan and Michael adopt ever more subtle disguises!
he could red pen it. That was the rules draft we used that Enfield Chambers – late 1980s
evening. The ‘baked bean can’ version. Photo: Trish Carden Collection

33
Talking Miniatures
RD: So that must have been late ’86 or early ’87, because 40K or
Warhammer 40,000 – Rogue Trader, was first released in 1987.

AP: Yes, but the strange thing is, we were not aware of a lot of what
was going on at the time, because we were still working from home,
but not our mum and dad’s house. You see, when we first came up to
Nottingham, instead of being invited to work at the Studio, which we
thought had been the whole reason for coming up, Bryan said, “Oh no,
you can work at home!”

RD: And the Design Studio had already been established at Enfield
Chambers at this point?
The twin-headed Michael and Alan
Both Perrys: Yes. Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader
Rick Priestley Collection
RD: So, the whole business had relocated from Newark to Eastwood, © Games Workshop 1987
which was where the factory and sales offices were based. But Bryan
decided to deliberately keep the Studio separate, and away from the rest of the business,
because he wanted the Studio to be kept…

JS: …to be kept pure!

RD: …away from the demon salesmen.

JS: Well, somebody has to sell all this rubbish!

RD: And so, you were told, “You don’t need to come into the Studio.” I am confused.

AP: Well, so were we. When we finally arrived, they said, “Oh, you don’t need to
come in here.” And we thought, “Oh right, wasn’t that the whole reason for us moving up
to Nottingham?”

JS: Do you remember what you were working on back then?

MP: When we first moved

up, it was just figure ranges,
all a bit random…

AP: And we are talking

about thirty years ago, over
thirty years…

MP: But I don’t think that

we’ll ever forget that period
working at the Design
Studio. It really was just
an amazing place to work,
with an extraordinary
combination of people and
talent. To start off, there
were about six of us, all
miniature designers and
Alan and Michael in Alan’s wargames room and armoury! 2022 sculptors, all working in one
Photo: ERD Visual Media room together.

34
 Alan & Michael Perry
AP: Yeah, with our desks all in a
circle, facing the walls at the edges
of the room. There was Aly and Jes
and Bob Naismith and Kev Adams. It
was great.

RD: Inside, the Studio was a

complete maze of winding corridors
and tiny rooms and offices. Bob
Naismith described it to us as a bit
like a shop in Diagon Alley from
Harry Potter.

Both Perrys: Yes, that’s exactly right… Wayne England and Dave Gallagher – Enfield Chambers, late 1980s
Photo: Trish Carden Collection
RD: There were basically a couple
of management offices on the ground floor. Bryan had one, Tom Kirby had the other, and
there was also a production office that was shared by Phil Gallagher, Alan Merrett and Steve
McGowan – the print buyer.

AP: Yes. The miniature painters also had a room on the ground floor next to John Blanche.

RD: And then upstairs, there was the editorial office, with the writers and editors: Rick, Jervis,
Mike Brunton, Graeme Davis, Sean Masterson, Nigel Stillman and so on.

MP: Yeah, right.

RD: And Hal had a little office on his own, because he was a bit bonkers… And then right
at the front was the camera room for photographing miniatures and artwork and so on.
Originally that was Phil Lewis’ job, but when he left, Chris Colston took over. And then up the
stairs again, on the top floor, was the production area, where all of the finished artists worked,
plus Brian George and Bill Sedgwick.

AP: Oh yes… I remember them.

RD: Yeah, they were the guys responsible for all

the page layouts and graphic design. And right at
the front was Lindsey with her huge Compugraphic
typesetting machine.

And then all the figure designers were also working on

that top floor, the production floor, right at the back.
And that was Enfield Chambers.

MP: But all that of course, was just before the ‘fuzzy felt’
massacre, in 1989.

JS: I think that you are going to have to explain what the
‘fuzzy felt’ massacre was, for the sake of our readers…

AP: Some new technology took over. Just as in the

Luddite rebellion, which also took root in Nottingham,
the Studio got hold of a couple of early Apple Editor Mike Brunton catches up on White Dwarf, late 1980s
Macintosh computers. Photo: Trish Carden Collection

35
Talking Miniatures
Seeing what they could do, Bryan decided that we didn’t need to
employ so many production staff. He thought it would be much
better if the writers and editors could produce their own finished
pages. And, of course, in the long term he was right. Computers
could do the work faster and easier than paste-up artists.

RD: That’s all true, but let me provide a little bit of context here.
Fuzzy felt was a popular kids’ toy in Britain in the 1960s and it
involved sticking bits of re-usable coloured felt down onto a
felted board to create pictures. And there were loads of different
sets, with different pieces. Every kid had one at the time. Anyway,
I don’t remember who coined the term ‘fuzzy felters’, it might
have been Tom [Kirby], but it was used in the Studio to rather
disparagingly refer to the people who took the layouts from the
graphic designers and turned them into finished pages ready for
Designer Richard Halliwell finds reproduction and printing.
something amusing in Wargames
This is all going to sound a bit crazy to anyone under forty or so
Illustrated – Enfield Chambers, late 1980s
Photo: Trish Carden Collection who doesn’t remember when page layout was done by hand and
not using a computer. But let me try to explain, as this method
was used for almost every box, book and magazine that came out of the Enfield Chambers
Design Studio. This includes Warhammer editions 1-3, Rogue Trader, the first Realm of Chaos,
Space Hulk, Adeptus Titanicus and many others, including all of the early White Dwarfs.

At the time, all the writers and editors were working on early Amstrad PCW computers. These
were the ones that you had to re-load the operating system, off a floppy disc, every time you
turned on the machine, because they had no hard drives to store anything.

Once the writers’ and editors’ words had been signed off, they would be passed to Lindsey
[Priestley] who would do a final spelling and punctuation check, and then put the discs into
a Compugraphic typesetter. With this machine, Lindsey could create section headers, and
change the typeface or font, but only by entering a series of quite complex control codes, a
bit like writing in html.

This machine used a photographic process, involving developing chemicals, to output the
text on long thin strips of paper, that
were each one column of text wide.

This text, together with any artwork,

photos, tables and illustrations,
would then be passed to one of
three graphic designers, who would
photocopy all of these elements
and use them to create a visual
layout of how they wanted the
finished page to look.

In the final stage these layouts

would be passed to a finished artist,
a ‘fuzzy felter’, who would create the
actual page layout. Any lines would
be drawn in by hand, using Rotring
pens, and Letraset tone bars could White Dwarf Editor Sean Masterson gets all arty – Enfield Chambers, late 1980s
be laid across tables, and so on. Photo: Trish Carden Collection

36
 Alan & Michael Perry
And at the end of all this, you would have two pages
of a book, complete, in what was known as ‘camera-
ready-copy.’

I know, this all sounds quite mad now, when anyone

with a computer, printer and a scanner could design
and lay out a book at home.

This camera-ready-copy would then be sent out

to a reprographic house. We mostly used a local
company called Sherwoods Photo Litho, owned by
a very patient man called Dennis. And in a couple
of days, he would return with these pages quite
literally turned into films, that could then be used
by a printer to make photolithographic plates, from
which a book, catalogue or magazine could finally
be printed.

As I’ve said, to most people under forty, who’ve

grown up with computers, this must all sound
like banging rocks together, but it was how it was
all done.
Left to right: Phil Lewis, Alan Perry and Colin Dixon
Anyway, soon after I arrived in the Studio, in 1989, – Enfield Chambers, late 1980s
we got hold of first one and then a couple more, Photo: Trish Carden Collection
Mac SE30 machines. They were early all-in-one Apple computers, with an integrated screen
and a mouse. Using them, you could not only lay out a page of text and leave spaces for the
artwork, but you could also change the fonts and the header sizes instantly. They felt like
magic. Not only could you edit and lay out text, but you could then send the pages straight to
a high-end printer and you were almost there.

Anyway, Bryan was both very bright and also a sharp businessman. Having looked at what
these machines could do with images and text, he just decided, “Oh, we can dispense with
all of these finished artists now. They’re just troublesome and expensive, and we don’t
need them.”

AP: It was the very next day, wasn’t it?

RD: Yes indeed, it was the very next day. One by one, each of the
finished artists were called downstairs to the production office
and told that they no longer had a job.

AP: And this was done at about 5.00pm as I remember…

RD: Yes, we all worked from 9.00am till 5.30pm in those days.
And so, in the last half an hour of the day, all the graphic
designers and production staff, with one or two exceptions, were
fired by Phil Gallagher, who was studio manager at that time.
And as they came back up, to collect their things, the next one
would be called down. It was awful, no one knew if they were
going to be the last man standing…
Apple Mac SE30
AP: And then they all went out to the pub, to the Bell Inn, in the Library Image
Market Square, because we both went with them… © Apple Inc

37
Talking Miniatures
RD: Well, I was supervising the production floor at the time, and I was only told that this
was going to happen about an hour before it started. I somehow survived that purge and
was then put to work at Flame Publications up on Derby Road, with Tony [Ackland] and Carl
Sargent for a year or so.

Trish, Aly and Colin from Marauder Miniatures were also based upstairs in the same building.
When I came back to the main Studio in 1990, it had re-located to Castle Boulevard and the
Enfield Chambers days were over. Anyway, that was the massacre of the ‘fuzzy felters’.

AP: It certainly was. Yeah.

RD: But just as with the Luddites, it was an essential technological change that Games
Workshop needed to embrace, and that I later really pushed forward with the White
Dwarf team.

JS: That’s progress…

RD: It was a technological revolution, but a lot of skills were lost. Many of which we had to
re-learn at a later point.

AP: Within about a week…

RD: It was always going to happen. The reason we are still talking about it is not because of
what was done, but the way in which it was done.

Both Perrys: Yeah.

RD: But as we’ve said, there were also many, many wonderful moments in that Studio… Trish
[Carden] has talked to us about how Bryan had this idea that the Design Studio should exude
cool, just like a rock band and…

MP: Yeah, that’s right, and it was around that time that Brian May – the guitarist with Queen –
first came up to visit us. Andy Jones heard that Brian’s son Jimmy was really into Warhammer,
and used to go into the Hammersmith store with his dad to buy miniatures. So, Andy asked
the manager to let Brian May know that if he ever wanted to visit the Nottingham Design
Studio, he’d be more than welcome. It was just a friendly invite…

AP: And we all knew nothing about this of course… Nobody mentioned who was coming in?

MP: Yes, so late one afternoon, it was around twenty past five or something like that. Alan had
already gone home, and I was just finishing some bits on a figure I’d been working on that
day, when I became aware of someone coming into the office behind me.

So, I turned around and there was this tall, fuzzy-haired bloke standing there with Andy Jones.
And I thought, “Oh blimey! That’s Brian May from Queen!”

And he was just lovely. We chatted for about twenty minutes, and I showed him what I’d
been working on and how we sculpted miniatures. He was genuinely interested in how they
were made. Meanwhile, his son Jimmy, and another friend, who’d come up with them, were
running around on the production floor and talking to all of the finished artists.

JS: What a great story.

AP: Yeah, I was just sorry I missed him.

38
 Alan & Michael Perry
RD: Well, the heavy metal connections all got a bit crazy at times, like the Sabbat flexi-disc
on the cover of White Dwarf 95 and so on. This was all driven by Andy Jones, with Bryan’s
agreement of course.

There was another time when Andy invited this insane American metal band, called Gwar,
into the Studio. And they all arrived wearing these completely over the top, latex and leather
costumes that they wore on stage! It was like having a group of Chaos demons running round
the offices.

JS: They were known for spraying their fans in blood and wearing these outrageous kind of
Chaos warrior suits. I went to see them at Rock City with Andy…

RD: You went to see Gwar?

JS: Yeah, and there was blood spraying everywhere. Everybody in the venue was just covered
in fake blood. We came out of the concert and then walked home across Nottingham, past
Police officers, thinking… Hmmm, just keep walking…

MP: And how was the music?

JS: It was… it was alright. But the show was completely outrageous and very entertaining.

RD: So, after that interesting diversion into Rock ’n Roll, let’s go back to 1987.
Rogue Trader has come out, the
business is booming and you’re both
making toy soldiers?

AP: Yeah, but even after 40K, life didn’t really

change much for us really.

MP: I genuinely preferred making fantasy

miniatures to sci-fi. I think that in the whole
of my time at Workshop, I only made two
Space Marines.

AP: And I’m going to say that I’ve never

made a Space Marine in my life. I’m very
proud of that.

MP: I made two. A lot of effort.

JS: And which ones were they?

MP: I don’t really remember… It actually

might have been three models. One was
a general or Space Marine commander,
sitting on a throne, with his legs together,
or as close as you can get them, when you
are wearing power armour! And the other
two were his personal guards, holding their
weapons, their boltguns, up to attention. I
don’t think they ever got released, and so White Dwarf 98 – Imperial Commander by Michael Perry
they are probably still out there sitting in a Robin Dews Collection
drawer somewhere… © Games Workshop 1988

39
Talking Miniatures
RD: So finally, jumping forward, I’ve got to ask
you the question about the Chaos dwarfs and
those hats!

AP: Oh, well, that was… I’m going to blame

Rick for that. He said, “Can you make them look
like Babylonians?”

JS: Babylonians… Right! I am so sorry to interrupt,

but I have to say these miniatures are still loved
today. They are adored and loved.

AP: Well, it was just great fun making them,

because he said, “Could you make them like
Babylonians, curly beards and everything… but
with really tall hats?”

So, I made a few with big hats, tall hats, and he

said, “Oh no, I think the hats need to be a lot
bigger than that…”

And I just thought, “Really? Well okay.” And

so, as you know, the hats ended up being
taller than the actual dwarfs wearing them.
And we made lots of different shapes, like
crazy tiered wedding cakes, but they were great
fun to make.

JS: Were you having a laugh and just pushing it

a bit?

AP: Well, I was, yeah, but then Rick was playing

along as well. Every time I’d show them to him,
he’d giggle and go: “No, bigger! They need to
be bigger!”

JS: Well in truth, I think he was under pressure to

make them bigger…

MP: Oh, yeah. I can imagine somebody else who

would say make them bigger…

RD: Well, Bryan was based over in America at the

time, and Rick had to keep him informed as to how
the Chaos dwarfs were progressing. And the way
Rick tells it… He would be on the phone to Bryan
in the US saying, “Well, the hats are actually quite
big, Bryan.” And Bryan would just push back and
say, “Nonsense, I know it’s the Perrys. They’ll make
them traditional; they’ll make them historically
accurate. Tell them to make the hats bigger!”
White Dwarf 161 and the arrival of the big hats!
Robin Dews Collection And Rick tried to explain, “Well, they are quite
© Games Workshop 1993 large already, Bryan.” But Bryan wouldn’t have

40
 Alan & Michael Perry

Old friends Alan Perry, Jervis Johnson, Rick Priestley and Michael Perry,
show off their quick play Napoleonic rules – Valour and Fortitude
Photo: Perry Miniatures 2022

any of it, and he insisted that Rick instructed you to “Make the hats bigger!” And after all this
to-ing and fro-ing, this whole crazy saga ended up with Rick faxing photographs of the Chaos
dwarfs to Bryan, who immediately got on the phone and shouted down the line: “What the
hell is going on with those hats? Are you all taking the piss?”

AP: That would be Bryan all over, and then of course, he’d say, “I never told you to make
them bigger!”

JS: Thank you both so much, guys. That’s more than enough for now. I am sure we could fill a
book with you two alone.

RD: Yes, thank you, it’s been great.

41
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