Two Barns Transcript
Two Barns Transcript
I'm just going to get you. At 10 in the morning, all the Polish men gathered here
in the village square. The mayor of Krolak and the local gendarmerie split up to
go up and drink, but the people came from the house in jackets and jackets.
Suddenly, from there, a scream was heard. A group of young people approached
the square. They ran.
Gita Lena Dolny, the young daughter of the Jewish student, was born in the city
as a beautiful woman. One of them apparently raped her, the others cut off her
head, and they came here, when they fell on their feet, on the head of a crow.
They called Gita Lena Dolny.
Witness: [00:01:00] They killed her, and with her head they threw a ball.
Narrator: And she was close to you? To her mother's aunt. To her mother's
aunt. He found me and my mother in
Witness: the Kubzhański Hill. We settled down. We settled down. Rosa Perley.
Karot Aseri Le Yuli. Yuli 1941. Yuli 1941. and everyone ran away so they
wouldn't get to Kiev.
And then they somehow [00:02:00] organized themselves, like a gang. They
went one after the other, like a battle, and went to all the cemeteries. Poles with
sticks, and with kettles, and they drank, and everyone went. The Poles prayed to
the Jews. And they beat the Jews. They will not hear the rumors, One went with
germonia and one with flax seeds, They will not hear that.
We decided that we are going to Yitzhakna. After the 2nd and 3rd of February,
We were already on the wheel, And we start to smell, Burn and smell of, uh,
Narrator: I's Father wanted to join his brothers and their families who fled to
Y, but in the outskirts of Y he realized that disaster had struck.[00:04:00]
He did not fear the soldiers of any war machine. He feared Joseph
Habashevsky, his neighbor, whom he knew since birth. It's
Witness: very intimate. It's very intimate. You know, in the memorial book, for
example, of Yad Vav Nehru, they have very good memories of their lives in
Yad Vav Nehru before the war, alongside Polish neighbors.
So, it was very intimate. People were sharing a lot of things. These people knew
each other and were so close. Striking. For example, already in the Vaser Stein's
testimony, when he describes and gives names of, of, uh, uh, half a dozen
perpetrators, he, what was striking to me was that he would use diminutives of
first names.
I don't know what was going on in the barn. Generally speaking, of course, this
is inconceivable. That's why it took me four years to, to, uh, to come to terms
with this stuff. But, uh, In some other sense, it kind of gets chopped into small
episodes, each of which is perfectly conceivable. I mean, you can see I have a
bunch of hoodlums throwing and pushing with me.
Witness: night. They closed the tunnel, poured gasoline and set it on fire. And
then they took us away They took us away for two days They took away the
gasoline and set it on fire. And the Jews were
Witness: us away. Yaakov Levin, my great grandson, and we were in the same
class. It was back in 1910. So we went to dinner together, but I didn't know
what to do with us. We weren't sure, Mr. President. And that's all. This is his
father. He had a very big dream. Like all these children, [00:07:00] he was also
in a dream.
They wanted to get closer to the other one. Maybe he would run away. So they
started fighting. No one knew what was going on. When he was in the cell, they
were playing with
Witness: Sarah Mentshkovsky. We did lessons together. One time around the
house, and one time at her house. The whole family, father, mother. From
Israel.
The
what was incredible is [00:08:00] that the entire Jewish community of this town
would have been killed, uh uh, on the dead.
Narrator: The atrocity lasted many hours and was all recorded in detail.
I'm.
Witness: his knife, killed 18 Jews. If we don't burn, he'll come. Nich[00:09:00]
ni ku. The fire took, uh, not just one, but the smoke that was in the air, they
were extinguished. Kubryansky says that from his hideout, where he was, he
heard the cry, suddenly silence. The Rabbi, Rabbi Gideon Bialystowski, said
with the Jewish people, What is this doing? And
Narrator: that day, when night fell over Jedwabne, the town's centuries old
Jewish heritage was obliterated. It was a mass murder in every sense. Masses
murdered, and masses were
[00:10:00] murdered.
It's all that was left. It was such a drama. They were strangled, then they were
taken through the walls, even teeth could be seen, golden teeth. It was very sad.
I don't know why
Witness: we are connected to this, but I will [00:11:00] try not to talk about it. I
just want to mention the fact that there were children in
our time. How did they die? How did they get killed? It's hard, it's hard to
explain it. And I can't explain it either. I can't explain it.
Re-enactment Actor: You, you were born here. You're a masochist. You're
born in
Witness: a million, but you're a pig for the planet, that you don't want to be
with the others. You're a masochist.[00:12:00]
I lived in Poland for how long? 11 years. From then on, 3 years in Poland.
Either in Kirkaful or
Narrator: in
Witness: Martef.
Narrator: Szefach Weiss survived the horrors of the war thanks to brave, noble
Polish Catholics. Little did he know that the story of his rescue is Would enable
poles to cope with the revelation of the brutal massacre in.[00:13:00]
60 years later, after finishing his term as chairman of the Knesset Prime
Minister, Barak offers him the desirable position of Israeli Ambassador to
Moscow or Berlin. Sheva states that he's willing to serve as ambassador to only
one country.[00:14:00]
Witness: Professor.
Witness: Yaz nam in estu do etesh. Ani makir gam asamim acherim. Yaz nam
in estu do etesh. Chamesh minim. Yitro etesh. K'yatza yadeh hama? Sot ha emet
ha istavit.
It
Commentator: was very noble from, uh, professor. To give us a hand in this
difficult, uh, trauma, which, which was caused by this shocking information.
But you know, this is not a shopping where you can put on a wage, you know,
uh, uh, uh, monies and goodness. It's not, you know, to be balanced. It doesn't
matter. It's even more else. For me, it is necessary to talk about it, to name it.
Because this monster, which is evil, if it is named, it is identified and then we
know
In [00:17:00] Jablonski's daring movie, Aftermath, the hero Franek returns from
Chicago to the village where he was born in Poland. In this village, all the Jews
were murdered. Fran and his brother Ek feel, they must dig up and find out
exactly what happened there, and especially why they want to understand the
roots of the hatred.
la.
Witness: know that all the Jews, in general, lived better than the Goyim. It
came to
Narrator: light. In Yedvabne, of the [00:18:00] three grocery stores, two were
owned by Jews. The Jew who awoke at dawn to pray Shacharit, Opened his
shop at 7:00 AM The Pole came to work at 10.
When the
Narrator: Polish farmer couldn't pay his debt to the Jewish grocer, it was
agreed between them that the farmer's wife would work at the Jews' house to
pay off the bill.[00:19:00]
Most of the tradesmen in were Jews, the doctor, the shoemaker, the man who
salted the fish, the carpenter, and the blacksmith.
Witness: the garden. He didn't drink much, because he ate a lot of onions. The
onions weren't very good. He smoked too. Yes, we smoked. Mr. Pluny. Maybe
it's Rabin, Rabin, I haven't said it yet, but it's Rabin Kazavist. I didn't explain
[00:20:00] to myself that they would do such things.
It was, in every way, we lived with them together, but not so much that we were
murderers.
Hate, I would still understand. What people do when they are hating someone.
But these murders were done in cold blood, without much anger even. In cold
blood, greed, I would say, was a very, very important reason. Now, why the
Jews? Most of these Jews were dirt poor. They were just as poor as other
peasants in the area.
However, these little town people, For decades and decades, they have been told
that Jews are associated with gold, that each and every Jew has gold. There will
be a little prize for you if you kill him. There will be a little prize, two kilos of
sugar, but you can take off the body of the killed Jew, you will receive his
pants.[00:21:00]
Sometimes in poor areas, pants are something you really want to have. The
Jews, when they went to the barn, they didn't take anything with them, mostly a
bundle of what they tied up. And all of that was left in the barn. The Poles took
it. In Jedwabne, I
Witness: know, that many came from the villages. So they came not only to
burn the Jews, to kill them, they also came to harvest.
And they took full bags, and they gave it to him. It was told to me, uh, It was
told to me after the war. The Poles. You're talking about Jedwabne. Jedwabne is
in the area of Lomza. The hegemon of Lomza, the bishop of Lomza, was, one
after the other, an extreme anti Semitic. Anti Semites, in general, It is not a
phenomenon that is explained, as the Marxists claim, by social [00:22:00]
economic factors.
Social factors are certainly important, but the source of the evil is, to a large
extent, a theological source. He simply knows that his religion is, as it were,
based on the Jewish faith. As they
Narrator: passed the church in Y on the way to the barn, several Jews cried out
to the local priest begging him to save them
Witness: to.
What is crucial here is the attitude of lower clergy at that time, because these
people could have stopped the violence to an extent if they wanted, and not
always they wanted to stop it. Antisemites are transmitting
It doesn't take very much for, for hatred. Grounded in ethnic, religious, uh.
Cultivated, uh, [00:24:00] antagonism to be stirred up and just turned into, into
this sort of very personalized, uh, brutality.
There are no Jewish Christians without the help of non Jews. There is no such
thing. The non Jewish neighbor is the key to salvation or to non salvation. You
ask why the Messiah, he took his life and held it for two and a half years. He, he
threw his life, all his family. So how? He is not the Messiah. He is not the
Messiah.
the beginning of the endlosung, in 1942, Jews are theoretically allowed still to
live. Killing the Jews is still rather an exception than a rule. The thing changes
dramatically in early 1942, the Jews lose the right to live.
Narrator: At that moment, the other barn was the only chance for the Weisses
in Borislav.
Narrator: Yulia Lasotova, a devout Catholic. Late that night, they knocked at
her door. We
I started crying, sugar, sugar. I loved these sugar cubes, the typical ones. And
Dad told me then,
Narrator: if you cry again, we'll have to cut you, Zadushitchi. And her Polish
neighbors, but from her own son music
After the war, music was tried and hanged by the poles in wartime Poland. The
situation was utterly different.[00:27:00]
And from the moment that this click is heard on the door, the life of a Jew who
knocks on the door, and the life of a
Witness: Pole who stands behind this door will change for the world. The first
pogrom, we ran away and hid in front of Mrs. Nasutova. The second pogrom,
through the school, on the date. We had such a small tunnel, and we ran to Mrs.
Gurelova. Mrs. Gurelova, she was a friend, at school, with my mother. Inna
schva pod ushkami, a [00:28:00] potem stayni. Jest tu staynia? Ale
Re-enactment Actor: gdzie
Witness: remember the first night, at the end of the storm, of the storms, of the
storm in Kash. And the next day, she took us to Assam.
There was a search for the Germans. They climbed on the roof. And Jews, Jews,
Jews were searched. And she said, Nicht Jews. She didn't know exactly who the
Germans were. And they, like that, felt their weight. It was completely clear to
me that we could be destroyed at any moment. Many times we relate to
Narrator: Mrs. Afraid that the Germans would search the barn again. Move the
vice to a small temple in her yard, a personal church where she used to pray.
Witness: Late
Narrator: in the evening when Concern grew that they would be discovered.
They came to the house of their neighbor, Mrs. Potel, and knocked on the door.
[00:30:00]
Narrator: The Polish woman recruited her 12-year-old Tik on a mission to hide
the Jews in their house. He
Witness: was,
Witness: in Dla'im. He
Narrator: took
Witness: out the 8 souls spell and turned it into a palm tree. A child between 12
and 13. This is a kind of heroism. You see, he was I'm not even talking about
the physical side of this deed.
He understands that if they take him and capture him, and that His way will lead
to his mother.
Narrator: Who would have believed that 60 years later, the boy who was
hidden in the false wall would award Tik the righteous Gentile Medal of Honor.
[00:31:00]
Witness: These are the only people who were in danger of death because their
solitude is their personal God. And I say this because most of the world's
hasidic nations, at least mine, were very Catholic, very religious. Okay, this is
their personal interpretation, so don't kill
Narrator: In the movie Aftermath, the villagers don't like Franek and Józek
snooping around, insistently asking who murdered the Jews.
In the movie Aftermath, the villagers don't like Franek and Józek snooping
around, insistently asking who murdered [00:32:00] the Jews.
Witness: Absolute lie, untruth. This, this is not what has happened. And, uh,
there is no evidence of any kind. And we know, we know that for sure that this
is not the way it has happened.
No.[00:33:00]
He was taken to Siberia. He was there for six years. When I found out that the
Jew had captured him, I said to myself, that Jew is such a disgusting thing. He
took my family away. Everywhere, in all these places, including Yervavna,
there are no Germans. But the German authority The one who allows this thing
and pushes it and wants it.
What it means basically is that the Germans proved that Jewish life is absolutely
worthless. You can kill them like dogs. This is
Witness: July 1941. If you think about the history of the Holocaust, it's very
bizarre, very strange. Even the Germans at that time were not killing all the
Jews that they found. [00:34:00] The thought that you have the entire
population of the village in July of 1941.
brought in and, and killed off entirely for historians of the Holocaust was still in
Koblenz.
Commentator: I've thought that this script in certain elements is going too far.
And then I went to the historians and I said, please make me a very honest
opinion, historical opinion, if this is a credible script.
And then I was shocked. They said, every element in the script you can find in
[00:35:00] real story somewhere, somewhere. I have to tell that the examples
which I got from these historians. were even more shocking than the script
And it might have been the case of Jedwabne. You might say that Jedwabne is
even an easier case to explain because it already happened in Radziwiłł. Do
Woman: I remember.
Yes? So
Woman: in
Narrator: They left. The same thing happened in her village la.
The Poles hitched Jews to wagons as if they were horses, and on these very
streets [00:37:00] while whipping and stabbing them. They led them to a barn
that was prepared in advance
using pitchforks and iron rods. The Polish hooligans pushed 150 Jews of Rajeev
into a barn and set it on fire. According to witnesses, there were Germans here.
One of them was even seen filming the occurrence. In their reports, the Gestapo
agents mentioned the polls cruelty towards
It was a hunt. It was a normal hunt. I am talking about slow manhunt of day
after day after day after day until the very last day of occupation.
People were, were hacked to, to death. It was just, I don't know. This was all an
affair, uh, much more kind of individualized and, uh, I think carried out very
quickly.
Moshe Rezner and his wife, who managed to escape, were captured and hanged
to death when their screams were heard by other Jews
Witness: who hid in a closed area. The Poles sent all the bodies to a large
grave. Witnesses say [00:39:00] that after he sent Moshe's body to the grave, his
daughter, who was with him, died. The Polish people, who were so united, did
not even notice that they were
Suddenly you hear the voices last sentences of people who beg for, who plead,
who beg.
Why do you do it? We went to one class together. We went to, well, we went to
dances together, and the problem is they are pleading normally with people
whom they know personally. [00:40:00] On a B. We saw Shades. On a she was
On a
You have two huge volumes. One of the of studies, the other of documentation,
the stories of really, of the entire area, not simply of . And in these volumes it,
it's stated for the first time. Uh, that, [00:41:00] uh, in, uh, in some two dozen
villages in the vicinity there were episodes of mass murder of Jews, uh, at the
hands of their
neighbors.
This hunt is not one county, it's, it's going all around wherever the Jews are on
the run. The amazing
Narrator: thing is that the story of the mass murder of Jews in the villages,
shtetls, and small towns is only coming up now, over 70 years later, when the
study of the Holocaust Seems like a closed book.
I had no idea that there were structures, structures in rural Poland which allowed
people to hunt Jews down.
Narrator: Only now are the historians stating unequivocally, the story
[00:42:00] of Yedvabne wasn't an exception to the rule. It was the rule.
And the deeper you dig, the more horrible the story becomes. And when we say
that the blood was flowing through the streets, it's not a licensia poetica, it's
precisely what happened.
Blood was flowing through the streets, they had to pour sand in order to make it
passable. Okay, so now you have Jews being murdered in the middle of cities,
towns, shtetls, on the streets. A spectacle of death is common sight. This is my,
my own interpretation. Perhaps something breaks in people's minds, in their
souls, that for, to some people, the Jews simply killing them is no longer a
crime.
It doesn't carry, and what is surprising, you don't see it. Feeling of guilt.
[00:43:00]
Narrator: Professor Jan Tomasz Gross doesn't let up, and he publishes another
book in which he presents the Poles as murderers of Jews After the war as well.
Witness: This is why I wrote the book because it's the, the, the, the spectacle of
killing Jews after the war to me is, uh, is just inconceivable, especially in a
place where people have witnessed, uh, the, the, the incredible brutality of, of
the Holocaust.
Narrator: The Poles made Gross a persona non grata, even though his mother
was a A Catholic Pole, an underground member, helped the Jews in Warsaw.
There, in the besieged ghetto, she met a young Jew who was to become Jan
[00:44:00] Tomasz's father.
Witness: This is how they met. By then, her first husband was also Jewish. Uh,
was killed.
And she helped him, she took him out of Warsaw after the collapse of Warsaw
Uprising. And, uh, uh, then he became a couple.
Witness: hatred to Jews after the war was derived from the evil that had been
done to Jews during the war. You hate people that you have injured. This is the,
this is an old formula. I was very glad to find it in Tacitus in which he quotes it
always in ancient
Commentator: Professor Gross was brave enough to, to, to go into it and to, to
write it in this non compromised way.
If you find this kind of details, this kind of stories, you have to do revealing
because this is your duty. Uh, as a human being. Franek [00:45:00] and
Narrator: Józek refused to give the old people of their village a break. How
could you be so cruel, they demand.
How, asks one who was there. Ask what your very own father did.
He was the one who murdered her.[00:46:00]
And when the brutal truth hits them in the face, understanding that the two
barns are part of their heritage Polish President, K. With Ambassador Vice by
his side, comes to and there where the barn stood. He asks for forgiveness.
[00:47:00]
And a day after the presidential ceremony, the memorial was desecrated.
Witness: I see this picture and I say, If I have stayed alive with all these
[00:48:00] children, I do it in order to prosper them.
Narrator: Yitzhak tries to come to the barn in Yedvabne every year to recite
Kaddish. I'm
Witness: not a basic person, I'm not a writer, I'm not a poet.
Narrator: Here with the son of his Polish savior and his children, Tali and.
Witness: The dog was better, we were better off than we were. I had to go back
to Israel. This is our country, why do we [00:49:00] have to go back to Israel? I
can't go on like this. It's getting worse, it's getting worse, I can't go on like this.
It's getting worse, it's getting worse, I can't go on like this. Jews in these small
towns, in the villages, they didn't have this kind of happiness.
Narrator: One day a letter came to the Israeli Embassy. Dear Mr. Vice, my
name is Y from Bois Love. I heard that you spoke of a Polish family in love that
saved you. I wonder if you are the boy from my grandmother's stories. The fact
that I
Witness: am here, the fact that I live, the fact that I am an ambassador in
[00:50:00] Poland is because of his grandmother, his grandfather had the
courage to start it.
Shevach Weiss,
How
I was trying to answer the same question that you asked. Now, what happens to
some people in these circumstances that suddenly, in this case, Jewish life, can
be taken with absolutely no remorse?
Witness: This is a kind of a test to which people should not be subjected. If you
subject people to the test of this sort, then uh.
Uh, then it, it, uh, kind of a devilish things happen. We are able to do both of
these things, yes? To the most extreme pleasure, and to the worst of the worst,
even to the worst. It only means
The more I read about this, the less I have trust in human nature. My role is to
leave the documentation on the table. That's my role. That's my duty. And what,
uh, what the next generation will do with it
Witness: No. Chciałabym nie Nie wiem jak To strasznie trudne. I can't answer
so quickly. We want a difficult answer. I know, but we have to formulate it
nicely. Nicely. And at the moment I can't formulate it nicely.[00:53:00]
Present Day Man: Panie Gros, jest pan przestępcą! Jest pan oszustem
finansowanym przez Żydowski Kongres! Nie damy odsie wyłudzić naszych
pieniędzy, naszej własności![00:54:00]
Narrator: Poland, the year is 2001. Professor Jan Tomasz Gros publishes his
book Neighbors, which describes the burning of all the Jews of the town of
Jedwabne by their neighbors. The book opens a Pandora's box that shakes
Poland.
Narrator: the end of the war, a hasty trial was held for a few of the participants
of the Jedwabne massacre.
All the testimonies, documents and details were put in an archive with a note.
These materials should be burned after 30 years. Someone forgot to burn them.
And 60 years after the Jedwabne incident, Professor Gross got his hands on
those documents. Before I [00:55:00] came
Witness: to Jedwabne, I wrote two books on the experience of, uh, of the Poles
during the war.
And then, while reading documentation, I came across the story of the
Jedwabne murder. And at the very beginning, it didn't make sense to me, really,
fully. It seemed crazy. It seemed just out of proportion to what we knew about
the period.
Narrator: For 800 years, here in Jedwabne, Catholics and Jews lived side by
side. With one church and one synagogue. Until one day On July 10th, 1941,
1,600 Christians burned to death, their 1,600 Jewish neighbors.[00:56:00]
Witness: I had this document in hand four years before I actually later on
turned it into a book. But it stuck in my mind, you know, for, for a long period
of time. And I remember also discussing it with my wife at the time. I was
writing some essays on the story of, uh, Soviet occupation of Eastern half of
Poland.
And I was thinking of ending this essay with the story of the B murder just put
in there. With a big question mark, did it happen? And she said to me at the
time, uh, uh, you know, What you write in this essay is [00:57:00] already done.