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DAS23CoverCope 2/28/14 1:22 PM Page 1

VOLUME 23 THE COMPUTER MUSIC AND DIGITAL AUDIO SERIES

VOLUME 23 THE COMPUTER MUSIC AND DIGITAL AUDIO SERIES

Hidden Structure
Hidden Structure

Hidden Structure
Music Analysis
Using Computers Music Analysis
David Cope
Today’s computers provide music theorists with unprecedented opportunities to analyze
Using Computers
music more quickly and accurately than ever before. Where analysis once required several
weeks or even months to complete—often replete with human errors, computers now pro-
vide the means to accomplish these same analyses in a fraction of the time and with far

Music Analysis Using Computers

more accuracy. However, while such computer music analyses represent significant improve-
ments in the field, computational analyses using traditional approaches by themselves do
not constitute the true innovations in music theory that computers offer. In Hidden Structure:
Music Analysis Using Computers David Cope introduces a series of analytical processes
that—by virtue of their concept and design—can be better, and in some cases, only accom-
plished by computer programs, thereby presenting unique opportunities for music theorists to
understand more thoroughly the various kinds of music they study.
Following the introductory chapter that covers several important premises, Hidden Struc-
ture focuses on several unique approaches to music analysis offered by computer programs.
While these unique approaches do not represent an all-encompassing and integrated
global theory of music analysis, they do represent significantly more than a compilation of
loosely related computer program descriptions. For example, Chapter 5 on function in post-
tonal music, firmly depends on the scalar foundations presented in chapter 4. Likewise, chap-
ter 7 presents a multi-tiered approach to musical analysis that builds on the material found
in all of the preceding chapters. In short, Hidden Structure uniquely offers an integrated view
of computer music analysis for today’s musicians.

Of Related Interest
The Algorithmic Composer
By David Cope
DAS 16 ISBN 978-0-89579-454-3 (2000) xiii + 130 pp. (with CD-ROM) $49.95

Hyperimprovisation: Computer-Interactive Sound Improvisation

By Roger Dean
DAS 19 ISBN 978-0-89579-508-3 (2003) xxvi + 206 pp. (with CD-ROM) $49.95

New Digital Musical Instruments: Control and Interaction Beyond the Keyboard
By Eduardo Reck Miranda and Marcelo M. Wanderley
DAS 21 ISBN 978-0-89579-585-4 (2006) xxii + 286 pp. (with CD-ROM) $49.95

David Cope
I S B N 978-0-89579-640-0
A-R Editions, Inc. 90000
8551 Research Way, Suite 180
Middleton, WI 53562
800-736-0070
608-836-9000
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Í David Cope
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page i

HIDDEN STRUCTURE
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page ii

THE COMPUTER MUSIC AND DIGITAL AUDIO SERIES

John Strawn, Founding Editor
James Zychowicz, Series Editor

Digital Audio Signal Processing Knowledge-Based Programming for

Edited by John Strawn Music Research
John W. Schaffer and Deron McGee
Composers and the Computer
Edited by Curtis Roads Fundamentals of Digital Audio
Alan P. Kefauver
Digital Audio Engineering
Edited by John Strawn The Digital Audio Music List: A Critical
Guide to Listening
Computer Applications in Music: Howard W. Ferstler
A Bibliography
Deta S. Davis The Algorithmic Composer
David Cope
The Compact Disc Handbook
Ken C. Pohlman The Audio Recording Handbook
Alan P. Kefauver
Computers and Musical Style
David Cope Cooking with Csound
Part I: Woodwind and Brass Recipes
MIDI: A Comprehensive Introduction Andrew Horner and Lydia Ayers
Joseph Rothstein
William Eldridge, Volume Editor Hyperimprovisation: Computer-
Interactive Sound Improvisation
Synthesizer Performance and Roger T. Dean
Real-Time Techniques
Jeff Pressing Introduction to Audio
Chris Meyer, Volume Editor Peter Utz

Music Processing New Digital Musical Instruments:

Edited by Goffredo Haus Control and Interaction Beyond
the Keyboard
Computer Applications in Music: Eduardo R. Miranda and
A Bibliography, Supplement I Marcelo M. Wanderley, with a
Deta S. Davis Foreword by Ross Kirk
Garrett Bowles, Volume Editor
Fundamentals of Digital Audio
General MIDI New Edition
Stanley Jungleib Alan P. Kefauver and David Patschke

Experiments in Musical Intelligence Hidden Structure: Music Analysis

David Cope Using Computers
David Cope
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page iii

Volume 23 • THE COMPUTER MUSIC AND DIGITAL AUDIO SERIES

HIDDEN STRUCTURE

Music Analysis Using Computers

David Cope

Í A-R Editions, Inc.

Middleton, Wisconsin
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page iv

Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data

Cope, David, 1941–

Hidden structure : music analysis using computers / David Cope.
p. cm. — (Computer music and digital audio series : v. 23)
Includes bibliographical references and index.
ISBN 978-0-89579-640-0
1. Music—Data processing. 2. Musical analysis—Data processing.
I. Title.

ML74.C69 2008
781.0285—dc22
2008019352
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page v

Pulchritudo est Splendor Ordinis.

Beauty is the splendor of order.
Saint Augustine (345–430)
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page vi
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page vii

Contents

List of Figures xi

Preface xxi
Description of CD-ROM xxvii
Chapter One Background 1
Principles and Definitions 1
A Brief History of Algorithmic Analysis 7
A Brief Survey of Computational Music Analysis 22
Musical Examples 39
Program Description 41
Conclusions 43

Chapter Two Lisp, Algorithmic Information Theory, 45

and Music
Lisp 45
Definitions 50
Musical Algorithmic Information Theory 62
Musical Examples 74
Program Description 90
Conclusions 97
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page viii

Chapter Three Register and Range in Set Analysis 99

Basics of Set Theory 99
Register 112
Ranges and Vectors 118
Comparisons 120
Musical Examples 127
Program Description 139
Conclusions 144

Chapter Four Computer Analysis of Scales in 145

Post-Tonal Music
Mathematical Sequences 145
Scales 148
Vector Classes and Metaclasses 153
Varèse’s Density 21.5 160
Schoenberg’s Six Little Piano Pieces, op. 19, no. 1 (1911) 169
Other Musical Examples 172
Program Description 182
Conclusions 188

Chapter Five Function and Structure in Post-Tonal 189

Music
Object-Oriented Programming 189
Definitions 197
The Acoustic Theory of Chord Roots 201
Musical Tension 205
Context and SPEAC 210
Function 215
Form and Structure 217
Musical Examples 225
Program Description 225
Conclusions 228
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page ix

Chapter Six Generative Models of Music 231

Modeling 231
Recombinancy 234
Probabilities 249
Rules and Markov Chains 252
Musical Examples 269
Program Description 269
Conclusions 274

Chapter Seven A Look to the Future 275

Principles 275
Mathematics 277
Artificial Intelligence 290
Muse 295
Musical Examples 305
The Future 310
Conclusions 316

Bibliography 321
Glossary 331
Index 337
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page x
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xi

List of Figures

Chapter 1
Figure 1.1 From Aristoxenus, The Harmonics of Aristoxenus, trans.. Henry S.
Macran (New York: Oxford University Press, 1902), 249.
Figure 1.2 A woodcut of Boethius with an instrument designed for methodologi-
cally deriving tunings (an algorithm).
Figure 1.3 An example of Gregorian chant, Parce Domine, notated in neumes; the
second staff is a continuation of the first.
Figure 1.4 An example of medieval organum.
Figure 1.5 The Guidonian hand, in which a specific note is assigned to each part
of the hand. By pointing to a part of the hand, the conductor can indi-
cate to a group of singers which note to sing.
Figure 1.6 An example of three-voice counterpoint around the time of Tinctoris.
Figure 1.7 The division of the octave according to Zarlino.
Figure 1.8 An exercise by Beethoven for his student Archduke Rudolph based on
Fux’s Gradus ad Parnassum.
Figure 1.9 Two diagrams from Rameau’s Treatise on Harmony describing (a) the
major (perfect) triad and its inversions, and (b) the dominant (funda-
mental) seventh chord and its inversions.
Figure 1.10 First published after Mozart’s death in 1793 by J. J. Hummel in Berlin,
this musikalisches Würfelspiel instruction page shows the first two
phrases of number selections (chosen by throws of the dice) that were
keyed to measures of music. Also shown, an example page of music by
Haydn for this own musikalisches Würfelspiel.
Figure 1.11 A sample Schenker analysis of Bach’s organ prelude Wenn wir in höch-
sten Noten sein.
Figure 1.12 Charles Babbage’s first Difference Machine (1833), a forerunner of the
modern-day computer.
Figure 1.13 The author, Horizons for Orchestra, in graphic format. Time moves left
to right.

xi
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xii

xii HIDDEN STRUCTURE

Figure 1.14 From Experiment 2 from Hiller and Isaacson, Illiac Suite, using the
Illiac computer at the University of Illinois, ca. 1956.
Figure 1.15 Flowcharts for MUSANA and its analysis module.
Figure 1.16 Ten commands found in Humdrum.
Figure 1.17 Bach Chorale 002 from the Music Theory Workbench, version 0.1
(http://pinhead.music.uiuc.edu/~hkt/mtw/pdf/), by Heinrich Taube
(accessed 24 July 2007).
Figure 1.18 An example of the OpenMusic visual programming environment of mu-
sic for composition and analysis.
Figure 1.19 The first few measures of Stravinsky, Three Pieces for String Quartet
(1914), 3rd movement.
Figure 1.20 Two screens from the Sets and Vectors program on the CD-ROM that
accompanies this book.
Chapter 2
Figure 2.1 The first 2000 digits of π.
Figure 2.2 Morse’s code for English letters and numbers.
Figure 2.3 An example of the kind of three-dimensional modeling of musical style
by Böker-Heil.
Figure 2.4 Cellular automata output generated by the code in the text.
Figure 2.5 Examples of retrograde (b), inversion (c), and retrograde inversion (d)
of a motive (a).
Figure 2.6 Two matrixes of the four-note motive of Figure 2.5. The first matrix
provides the motive and its eleven transpositions (down from right
to left) along with its retrograde and its eleven transpositions (read
right to left). The second matrix provides the inversion and its eleven
transpositions along with its retrograde inversion and its eleven
transpositions.
Figure 2.7 A simple downward scale beginning on different pitches, thus produc-
ing different arrangements of whole and half steps.
Figure 2.8 Brief monophonic samplings of music by (a) J. S. Bach, Suite no. 1 in G
Major for Violoncello Solo (1720), Minuet, mm. 1–8; (b) W. A. Mozart,
Symphony no. 40 in G Minor, K. 550 (1788), 1st movement, mm. 1–5;
(c) Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony no. 5, op. 67 (1808), 1st move-
ment, mm. 1–5; (d), Johannes Brahms, Symphony no. 1, op. 68 (1876),
4th movement, mm. 30–38; (e) Anton Webern, Variations for Piano, op.
27 (1936), 2nd movement, mm. 1– 4; (f) Ernst Krenek, Suite for Violon-
cello, op. 84 (1939), 1st movement, mm. 1–4; (g) The author, Three
Pieces for Solo Clarinet(1965), 1st movement, mm. 1–3.
Figure 2.9 Bartók, Mikrokosmos, no. 81.
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xiii

LIST OF FIGURES xiii

Figure 2.10 AIT structural analysis of the music presented in Figure 2.9.
Figure 2.11 A simple graph showing four parameters of a melody by Brahms (pre-
sented at the top of the figure).
Figure 2.12 Pitches reduced to intervals for pattern matching.
Figure 2.13 Bartók, Mikrokosmos, no. 81, from Figure 2.9, in a Dynamic Musical AIT
graph.
Figure 2.14 Multigraph output for the beginning of Stravinsky, Three Pieces for
String Quartet (1914), shown in Figure 1.19.
Figure 2.15 Two mazurkas in the style of Chopin for analytical comparison.
Figure 2.16 Two DMAIT graphs representing the Chopin mazurkas shown in Figure
2.15.
Figure 2.17 A prelude by Chopin comparable in length to the pieces in Figure 2.15.
Figure 2.18 A Dynamic Musical Algorithmic Information Theory graph of the Cho-
pin prelude shown in Figure 2.17.
Figure 2.19 Sample Multigraph output.

Chapter 3
Figure 3.1 Symbols representing several ways in which sets can be more formally
compared.
Figure 3.2 A Venn graphic of set theory logical deductions.
Figure 3.3 Root positions of triads have a smaller range between their outer notes.
Figure 3.4 A clock face arranged to allow clearer visualization of pitch-class
relationships.
Figure 3.5 The [1,6,t] pitch-class set does not resolve to the pitch-class set
[0,5,9] (9 distance when rotated to 0) because of the smaller range of
[6,t,1] (7 distance and equating to [0,4,7] when rotated to 0).
Figure 3.6 A straightforward example of the use of set theory to find similarities
in post-tonal music.
Figure 3.7 (a) [e,0,2,5,7,8] is [0,1,3,6,8,9] when rotated one number clockwise;
(b) [6,7,9,0,2,3] is [0,1,3,6,8,9] when rotated six numbers clockwise;
(c) [7,6,4,1,e,t] is [0,1,3,6,8,9] when rotated seven numbers counter-
clockwise; (d) [0,e,9,6,4,3] is [0,1,3,6,8,9] when rotated twelve num-
bers counterclockwise.
Figure 3.8 The opening 4 measures of Schoenberg, Six Little Piano Pieces, Op. 19,
no. 6.
Figure 3.9 The opening measures of Claude Debussy, La cathédrale engloutie
(The Sunken Cathedral), 1909.
Figure 3.10 A conversion chart relating decimal to duodecimal notation.
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xiv

xiv HIDDEN STRUCTURE

Figure 3.11 A more understandable and musical way to think in terms of duodeci-
mal notation.
Figure 3.12 Conversion methods used for decimal to duodecimal numbers and
vice versa.
Figure 3.13 Subtraction, addition, multiplication, and division using arbitrary
numbers in duodecimal notation.
Figure 3.14 Two two-set progressions showing pitch classes (first), t-normal form
(second), and prime (third).
Figure 3.15 Same reduction as Figure 3.14 but with registers intact in the form of
duodecimal notation.
Figure 3.16 Range notation shown to the lower right.
Figure 3.17 Arnold Schoenberg, Suite for Piano, op. 25 (1923), Gavotte, mm. 1–6,
with groupings circled and numbered.
Figure 3.18 Computer analysis of Schoenberg‘s Gavotte by tetrachords and tri-
chords as shown circled and numbered in figure 3.17.
Figure 3.19 Webern, Variations (1936), mm. 1–7.
Figure 3.20 Webern analysis by dyads (a) and trichords by hand (b) as shown
circled—dyads by solid line and trichords by dotted line—in Figure
3.19.
Figure 3.21 Nine measures from Boulez, Structures (1952).
Figure 3.22 Boulez analysis by tetrachords by hand as shown circled in Figure
3.21.
Figure 3.23 Webern, Concerto for 9 Instruments, op. 24, 1st movement, mm. 1–7.
Figure 3.24 (a) Calculations of registral information in Webern, Concerto for 9 In-
struments, op. 24, 1st movement, mm. 1–3.
Figure 3.25 Webern, Concerto for 9 Instruments, op. 24, 1st movement, last 7
measures.
Figure 3.26 Calculations of registral information from Figure 3.25.
Figure 3.27 Boulez, Second Sonata for Piano (1948), 2nd movement, beginning.
Figure 3.28 Calculations of registral information in mm. 1–6 in Boulez, Second
Sonata for Piano (1948), 2nd movement.
Figure 3.29 The author, Triplum for flute and piano (1975), beginning.
Figure 3.30 Calculations of registral information in the author’s Triplum for flute
and piano (1975), mm. 1–7.
Figure 3.31 The author, Triplum for flute and piano (1975), mm. 98–104.
Figure 3.32 Another passage from the author’s Triplum for flute and piano (1975),
m. 43.
Figure 3.33 The 97 possible origin sets for [0,2,6].
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xv

LIST OF FIGURES xv

Chapter 4
Figure 4.1 Beethoven, Piano Sonata in C Major, op. 53, beginning.
Figure 4.2 The numbers of iterations per pitch of the 298 pitches present in
Beethoven, Piano Sonata in C Major, op. 53, beginning (C, 48; C-sharp,
1; D, 26; E-flat, 11; E, 17; F, 57; F-sharp, 2; G, 52; A-flat, 16; A 13; B-flat,
31; B, 24).
Figure 4.3 A list of all 77 linear interval vector classes.
Figure 4.4 Four sets of scales related by symmetry (a, b, and c) and repeating
pattern (d).
Figure 4.5 Beethoven, Piano Sonata op. 7, mm. 97–105.
Figure 4.6 A series of possible scales, with each successive scale possibility lack-
ing one of the previous scale’s notes, the one with the shortest overall
duration. Each line here represents the scale’s transposed pitch-class
set beginning on 0, its linear interval vector, and the original pitch-
class set in ascending order.
Figure 4.7 Varèse, Density 21.5 for solo flute.
Figure 4.8 Computer scale analysis of the phrases of the three sections of Varèse,
Density 21.5 (see Figure 4.7), with author’s determination of best scale
possibility in boldface.
Figure 4.9 Computer analysis of Varèse, Density 21.5, by complete section with
author’s determination of best scale possibility in boldface and sec-
ondary possibilities marked by “*” and “†.”
Figure 4.10 Unordered but nontransposed scale pitch classes for each section in
Figure 4.7.
Figure 4.11 The first section of Varèse, Density 21.5, with non-scale tones circled.
Figure 4.12 Schoenberg, Six Little Piano Pieces, op. 19, no. 1 (1911).
Figure 4.13 Computer readouts from a three-phrase analysis of Schoenberg, Six Little
Piano Pieces op. 19, no. 1.
Figure 4.14 Computer analysis of the entirety of Schoenberg, op. 19, no. 1.
Figure 4.15 From the author’s Concerto for Cello and Orchestra (1994).
Figure 4.16 The author, Concerto for Cello and Orchestra (1994), computer analy-
sis by phrase.
Figure 4.17 Computer analysis of the excerpt from the author’s concerto in Figure
4.15, by section.
Figure 4.18 Computer analysis of the entirety of the excerpt from the author’s
concerto shown in Figure 4.15.
Figure 4.19 Selected measures of the solo cello part of the author’s concerto. The
scale used in the third movement has a related complement used
much as the dominant key might be used in a tonal concerto.
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xvi

xvi HIDDEN STRUCTURE

Figure 4.20 A scale analysis of Stravinsky, Three Pieces for String Quartet (1914),
3rd movement (opening), as shown in Figure 1.19.
Figure 4.21 A pitch field that covers a span of two-plus octaves and contains two
exclusionary hexachord pitch-class sets.
Figure 4.22 A scale with a range of two-plus octaves for the example shown in Fig-
ure 4.21.
Figure 4.23 An example where the notes C-sharp, G, and B appear only in the up-
per register and the notes E-flat, F, and A appear only in the lower reg-
ister (Arnold Schoenberg, Das Buch der hängenden Gärten, II).
Figure 4.24 The scale differences between a one-octave representation and a two-
octave representation of the music in Figure 4.23.

Chapter 5
Figure 5.1 One possible overview of the structure of a work of music that is at
one and the same time a visual/musical representation and an OOP
representation.
Figure 5.2 Examples where (a) roots remain the same but tensions change and
(b) tensions remain fairly equal but roots change, demonstrating how
neither process alone can determine function in post-tonal music.
Figure 5.3 The overtone series from the fundamental C.
Figure 5.4 (a) Interval derivations from the overtone series along with their root
designations, and (b) interval root strengths shown in order of strength.
Figure 5.5 Six groupings to serve as examples of the root-identification process.
Figure 5.6 A list of intervals weighted according to their tension levels.
Figure 5.7 Figuring interval weights from the bass note by using the chart in Fig-
ure 5.6 produces 0.3 (M3 at 0.2 + P5 at 0.1), .5 (m3 at 0.225 + m6 at
0.275), and 0.8 (P4 at 0.55 + M6 at 0.25), respectively. The minor triad
and its inversions produce 0.325 (m3 at 0.225 + P5 at 0.1), .45 (M3 at
0.2 + M6 at 0.25), and 0.825 (P4 at 0.55 + m6 at 0.275).
Figure 5.8 The augmented triad at 0.475 (M3 at 0.2 + m6 at 0.275), the diminished
triad at 0..775 (m3 at 0.225 + A4 at 0.55), the dominant seventh chord
at 1.0 (M3 at 0.2 + P5 at 0.1 + m7 at 0.7), and the diminished seventh
chord at 1.125 (m3 at 0.225 + A4 at 0.65 + M6 at 0.25).
Figure 5.9 Four chords producing tensions of 1.2 (M3 at 0.2 + P5 at 0.1 + M7 at
0.9), 1.25 (m3 at 0.225 + P5 at 0.1 + m7 at 0.7), 0.55 (M3 at 0.2 + P5 at
0.1 + M6 at 0.25), and 2.0 (M3 at 0.2 + P5 at 0.1 + M7 at 0.9 + M2 at 0.8).
Figure 5.10 Chord tensions adding to 1.0 (M2 at 0.8 + M3 at 0..2), 1.225 (m2 at 1.0 +
m3 at 0.225), 1.8 (m2 at 1.0 + M2 at 0.8), and 1.475 (P4 at 0.55 + m7 at
0.7 + m3 at 0.225).
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xvii

LIST OF FIGURES xvii

Figure 5.11 A simple lookup table of metric tensions for principal beats in twelve
different meters.
Figure 5.12 (a) J. S. Bach, Chorale no. 42, demonstrating the same chord in differ-
ing contexts; (b) Schoenberg, Six Pieces for Piano, op. 19, no. 6, open-
ing measures, demonstrating the same types of contextual differences.
Figure 5.13 SPEAC analysis of the music in Figure 5.12a and b.
Figure 5.14 An example of a unification as derived from Schoenberg, Three Piano
Pieces, op. 11, no. 1: (a) the unification, and (b) the first 8 measures of
the work from which the unification was drawn. Note the other unifi-
cations present here as well.
Figure 5.15 Two patterns, a target pattern and a potential matching pattern. If the
*intervals-off* controller were set to 2, the two patterns would
not match. However, if the *intervals-off* controller were set to
3, the two patterns would match.
Figure 5.16 A phrase of music by Mozart (a); a machine-composed replication (b);
the meta-pattern that binds them together (c).
Figure 5.17 Various levels (gradient map) of music revealed by applying filters.
Figure 5.18 The opening few beats of a graphical analysis of Stravinsky, Three
Pieces for String Quartet (1914), 3rd movement.
Figure 5.19 A root analysis of Stravinsky, Three Pieces for String Quartet (1914),
3rd movement.
Figure 5.20 SPEAC analysis (by chord change) of Stravinsky, Three Pieces for
String Quartet (1914), 3rd movement.
Figure 5.21 A structural graph of a section from the author’s Triplum for flute and
piano.

Chapter 6
Figure 6.1 (a) Mozart, Piano Sonata K. 279, 1st movement, mm. 1–3; (b) results of
the Melodic Predictor; (c) Mozart, Piano Sonata K. 533, 1st movement,
mm. 1–4; (d) results of the Melodic Predictor.
Figure 6.2 Recombination process leading to the completion of a new Bach-like
chorale phrase.
Figure 6.3 An example of differing types of internal patterns causing problems in
recombination: (a) and (b) originals, (c) a recombination without re-
gard to texture sensitivity.
Figure 6.4 An example of Experiments in Musical Intelligence output: the begin-
ning of the Rondo Capriccio for cello and orchestra arguably in the
style of Mozart.
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xviii

xviii HIDDEN STRUCTURE

Figure 6.5 An example of allusion in (a) an Experiments in Musical Intelligence

replication; and (b) a Beethoven bagatelle Op. 119, no. 1 (1820), upon
which it is partially based.
Figure 6.6 A Bach chorale as example of a jigsaw puzzle.
Figure 6.7 The Bayes rule.
Figure 6.8 A state-transition matrix for a first-order Markov chain involving all
twelve notes of the chromatic scale.
Figure 6.9 The upper left-hand corner of a second-order Markov chain state tran-
sition matrix.
Figure 6.10 (a) Original, Bartók, Mikrokosmos, no. 71, transposed to begin on G;
(b–f) five computer extensions beginning five notes from the end of
the passage.
Figure 6.11 (a) Original, Bartók, Mikrokosmos, no. 77, transposed to begin on D;
(b–d) three computer extensions beginning five notes from the end of
the passage.
Figure 6.12 A simple two-voice counterpoint in which each voice moves stepwise
in various directions.
Figure 6.13 A post-tonal example, where the various two-note groupings do not
have clear functionalism.
Figure 6.14 Two possible nonidentical computer extensions (b and c) to the origi-
nal by Bartók (Mikrokosmos, no. 80) presented in (a).
Figure 6.15 Three different forms of analysis provided by Alice.
Figure 6.16 The rule (((3 3) 2 1) ((5 1) -2 2) ((0 0) 2 3) ((8 5) -1 4)) in music
notation.
Figure 6.17 Extending voice-leading rules.
Figure 6.18 Several student-created extensions (b–d) based on Bartók (a),
Mikrokosmos, no. 81.
Figure 6.19 The rule (((19 16) -3)) in music notation.

Chapter 7
Figure 7.1 The top ten levels of Pascal’s triangle.
Figure 7.2 Pascal’s triangle shown stacked to the left and modulo 2 with the ze-
ros identifying the Sierpinski gasket (a), and zeros removed (b) to
make the graphic more readable.
Figure 7.3 A simple 5 × 5 magic square in which all horizontal ranks and vertical
columns sum to 65.
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xix

LIST OF FIGURES xix

Figure 7.4 A magic square containing intervals that equate (when added to-
gether) to 5 in top-to-bottom and left-to-right directions, along with
musical examples.
Figure 7.5 The author, Concerto for Cello and Orchestra, 2nd movement
(excerpt).
Figure 7.6 A magic cube with both incremental numbers and music intervals
(with directions).
Figure 7.7 A formal analysis of the first 89 measures of Bartók, Music for Strings,
Percussion and Celeste (Lendvai 1983, p. 74), based on the golden
mean and the Fibonacci series.
Figure 7.8 The first 14 measures of Varèse, Density 21.5, with much the same
pitch classes as the silver variation.
Figure 7.9 A simple model of a neural network.
Figure 7. 10 A simple example of an association network.
Figure 7.11 An example of Muse’s grouping process.
Figure 7.12 All of the possible permutations of a six-note list of nonrepeating num-
bers not including the original arrangement ([0,2,7] [1,5,8]) and its ret-
rograde ([1,5,8] [0,2,7]).
Figure 7.13 A view of the listener window after the completion of one analysis by
Muse.
Figure 7.14 Muse’s program includes a function called sleep.
Figure 7.15 The Eine Kleine Stück arguably in the style of Arnold Schoenberg by
Experiments in Musical Intelligence.
Figure 7.16 Schoenberg, Three Piano Pieces, op. 11, no. 1 (opening).
Figure 7.17 The first page of the score to Beethoven, Symphony no. 5, revision.
Figure 7.18 Dies irae, a medieval Latin sequence and the first words of the Re-
quiem Mass.
Figure 7.19 (a) A passage from the Mystic Circle of the Young Girls in Stravinsky,
The Rite of Spring ; (b) a passage from Stravinsky, Three Pieces for
String Quartet.
Figure 7.20 (a) A passage from the 3rd movement of Stravinsky, Three Pieces for
String Quartet; (b) a similar passage in the Symphonies of Wind Instru-
ments.
Figure 7.21 A post-tonal work by the author resembling Stravinsky’s style.
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xx
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xxi

Preface

Today’s computers provide music theorists with unprecedented opportunities to

analyze music more quickly and accurately than ever before. Whereas analysis once
required several weeks or even months to complete and was often replete with hu-
man errors, computers now provide the means to accomplish these same analyses
in a fraction of the time and with far more accuracy. However, although such com-
puter music analyses represent significant improvements in the field, computational
analyses using traditional approaches do not in themselves constitute the true inno-
vations in music theory that computers offer. In this book, I introduce a series of an-
alytical processes that—by virtue of their concept and design—can better, and in
some cases only, be accomplished by computer programs, presenting unique oppor-
tunities for music theorists to better understand the music they study.
As an example, when comparing computational and human analysis, we need to
distinguish between time differences of minutes or hours and of months or years.
Analyses that may take a human minutes, hours, or days may still be undertaken
by hand. Analyses that require a human months or even years may not even be
considered feasible. Without these latter analyses, however, our range of choices of
analytical processes becomes arbitrarily limited. With computers able to reduce
our months or years to fractions of seconds and accuracy to near perfect, music
analysts must rethink many theories that they may have previously dismissed as
impossible due to the magnitude of the undertaking. Computers can not only re-
duce our fatigue and increase our accuracy, but they can open whole new worlds
previously considered unachievable—if considered at all.
Many readers of a book like this might value an annotated bibliography of cur-
rently available software for tonal and post-tonal music analysis, but most would
find this kind of listing woefully out of date the very day it became available; the
field simply changes too rapidly to make this kind of offering practical. Instead, this
book—with the exception of the broad introductory first chapter—focuses on sev-
eral unique approaches to music analysis offered by computer programs. Although
these approaches do not represent an all-encompassing and integrated global
theory of music analysis, they do represent significantly more than a compilation of
loosely related computer program descriptions. Chapter 5, on function in post-
tonal music, for example, firmly depends on the scalar foundations presented in

xxi
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xxii

xxii HIDDEN STRUCTURE

Chapter 4. Likewise, the logic of Chapter 7’s presentation of a multi-tiered approach

to musical analysis depends on the material of all of the preceding chapters. In
short, this book represents an integrated view of computer music analysis.
Hidden Structure also centers on post-tonal rather than tonal music for several
reasons. First, as we shall see in this chapter, tonal music analysis has a long and
distinguished history that details approaches to melody, harmony, counterpoint,
form, and structure. Although the advent of computer technology can certainly add
tools and allow the discovery of new concepts, the range of potential for truly new
approaches is, I feel, somewhat limited compared to the potential for analytical
possibilities in post-tonal music. Second, many diverse and useful programs for
tonal music analysis already exist. In fact, most early computer computational ex-
periments with music analysis involved tonal music. On the other hand, although
many computer pitch-class set programs exist, little beyond this easily created soft-
ware is currently available. Third, and possibly most important, post-tonal music
represents the lingua franca of today’s concert music, the music in which I am most
interested and to which I wish to devote my research time.
The ideas described in this book are ordered from simple to complex, and from
more traditional to possibly more innovative. Chapter 2’s focus on information
theory mirrors the work done by early music theorists using computers, while
Chapter 6’s concentration on computer modeling parallels more recent work in
computer composition using rule acquisition. Most of these ideas also share com-
mon perspectives. For example, they have the same post-tonal focus, use similar
artificial-intelligence approaches, and share the same computational foci. Thus, this
book represents an integrated view of music analysis rather than a potpourri of
interesting but unrelated analytical perspectives.
Although this book is meant for a general audience, with the only prerequisite
being the ability to read music, it is particularly intended for both musicians inter-
ested in the application of computers to the understanding of music and computer
scientists—both professionals and those amateurs who enjoy the sport of benign
hacking—wishing to use their expertise to better understand music. Given my sus-
picion that many of these individuals do not share a great deal of common ground,
I have attempted to educate each group in the territory of the other. I therefore
define the terms and concepts used very carefully. For example, music theorists
will require an understanding of information theory, programming, and so on. Like-
wise, non–music theorists will require an understanding of musical set theory,
chord roots, and so on. By doing this, however, I fear that both will consider many
of the chapters here uneven, at least in the sense that computer scientists, for ex-
ample, understand set theory, just not musical set theory, and vice versa for musi-
cians. Thus, readers may find themselves in shallow water for one section of a
chapter and then suddenly in deep water. I apologize for the lack of uniformity that
may result. Hopefully, the chapter subheadings will allow those already familiar
with one or more of the concepts described to skip to the next section relevant to
01_DAS_FM_ppi-xxx 1/29/09 1:06 PM Page xxiii

PREFACE xxiii

their interests if they so desire. I believe that those who stick with this book, despite
its bumpy ride, will gain a new appreciation for the views of music offered here.
Chapter 1 begins with principles and definitions, followed by a survey of histori-
cal algorithmic analysis processes and a broad overview of the computer music
programs in use today. This overview does not just list the many different imple-
mentations of particular analytical processes, but describes representative exam-
ples of them. For example, pitch-class set analysis programs in Java can be found at
dozens of Internet sites at present, the variations between them limited primarily
to differences in graphical user interfaces. Therefore, the coverage here is relatively
limited. Other programs, such as the Humdrum Toolkit, that provide more univer-
sal algorithms are discussed in more detail. Chapter 2, on music and algorithmic
information theory, describes how a form of compression (replacing redundant ma-
terial with signifiers to conserve space) can reveal important statistics about post-
tonal music. It also proposes an analytical technique that incorporates a dynamic
integrative approach to aspects of pitch, rhythm, texture, and dynamics in an at-
tempt to understand the constantly changing foci of musical works.
Chapter 3, on set analysis of register and range, introduces a duodecimal nota-
tion for representing pitch-class sets, a notation that, by virtue of its having a base
(radix) of twelve, allows both register and pitch class to share one relatively simple
notation. Integrating these two interrelated aspects of musical pitch in a pitch-class
abstraction enables the comparison of equivalent prime-form sets with significant
registral differences, revealing contrasts as significant as those between prime-form
sets that share very similar registral arrangements. Chapter 4 presents a computer
analysis of musical scales and describes a method for generating all possible equal-
tempered scales and an approach to efficiently discovering and cataloging these
scales, particularly in post-tonal music. Because scales have scale degrees that in
tonal music signify musical functions, the concept of post-tonal scale analysis
has far-reaching implications. This is the subject of Chapter 5, which more fully
explores the implications of discovering function in post-tonal music, defining and
analyzing potential musical progressions, cadences, chromatic harmonies, hierar-
chies, and so on.
Chapter 6 focuses on generating rules from music itself, rather than imposing
user-prescribed rules. I end in Chapter 7 with a possibly brazen (but hopefully use-
ful) look to the future at some of the areas of musical analysis I feel will develop
over the next few decades thanks to the availability of new computational tools.
I have chosen commonly analyzed musical examples for this book so that read-
ers will be able to better compare the results of the analytical processes I describe
here with the results of other, more standard analytical techniques. I have also in-
terpolated examples of my own music here and there in order that readers may
more directly ascertain how the techniques described further prove valuable in the
creative process. I explicitly used the analytical processes described in these com-
positions, and these works represent the best cases I can prove of such usage.
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xxiv HIDDEN STRUCTURE

I have limited the scope of study for this book to classical post-tonal music.
Other genres of music might serve equally well. However, classical post-tonal music
provides a comprehensive range of music over a significant historical period. As
well, my own background consists almost exclusively of classical tonal and post-
tonal music, and hence I lack the expertise to intelligently discuss other genres of
music. Readers may offset this shortcoming by applying the techniques defined
and described here to whatever style of music they know best.
The various computer programs discussed in this book, along with MP3 versions
of all of the book’s musical examples, are available on the CD-ROM that accompa-
nies this book. The programs are written in Common Lisp, of which two versions
are available: (1) Macintosh platform, or (2) any platform that supports Common
Lisp. To ensure that these latter programs will perform in different environments
requires the omission of platform-dependent code such as all Musical Instrument
Digital Interface (MIDI) and graphical user interface (GUI) functions. Full documen-
tation and operating instructions are included with each program.
As time permits, I will provide code updates for new versions of the Macintosh
operating system on my Web site (arts.ucsc.edu/faculty/cope). However, if history
proves accurate, as soon as I write new platform-dependent programs, system
hardware or software changes will once again render the code almost immediately
obsolete. Furthermore, the software for the programs in this book, although very
helpful in demonstrating the principles of each chapter and in clarifying the ana-
lytical principles proposed, is not critical to the understanding of the material
presented.
Whenever possible in this book, I have included the thoughts of music theorists,
musicologists, mathematicians, computer scientists, and cognitive scientists whose
work complements or poses the greatest challenges to the ideas presented here.
My apologies to those whose work may seem relevant, but to which I have not re-
ferred here due to space limitations.
Many individuals have advised me in this study of computer music analysis, par-
ticularly graduate students and colleagues at the University of California at Santa
Cruz (notably Paul Nauert, Ben Carson, and Daniel Brown). I also owe immense
gratitude to Nico Schüler for forwarding a copy of his dissertation (2000), without
which I would have floundered more than I already have in the first chapter’s his-
tory of computer music analysis. Keith Muscutt, Eric Nichols, and Irene Natow pro-
vided much-needed advice (editorial and otherwise). Many of the ideas in this book
originated from my teaching over the years, and I thank the many classes of stu-
dents who acted as guinea pigs for my theoretical explorations. Without support
from colleagues and students such as these, this book could not have been
completed.
Hidden Structure describes a few of the ways in which I believe computer pro-
grams can contribute significantly to the analysis of music, particularly to the often
difficult-to-understand post-tonal music of our time. Although computer programs—
Exploring the Variety of Random
Documents with Different Content
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what we know; yes. I don't think
anybody knew anything at all. All of a sudden they arrived on the
horizon. And, actually, who discovered them for the first time, I don't
even know that.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I cannot even tell. I would like to know,
myself, now, how it came about.
Mr. Jenner. They were brought to your attention?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And your recollection is it was George Bouhe?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. My recollection is that he finally—we were
sort of ashamed of ourselves that we still didn't meet her, and we
still didn't do anything, you know, for that girl. So, finally—I don't
remember how, but either we drove, or whether they brought her to
us for the first time. That is how it happened.
Mr. Jenner. And this was in the late summer of 1962?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. And I told him, Bouhe, at that
particular time, we were financially not very well off, and I could not
contribute any money, but I had time and a car, and I could take the
baby to the clinic, and I could take her with her teeth, and anything
of that sort I would be glad to do.
Mr. Jenner. We might digress a moment. In the summer of 1962
you and your husband were not as financially affluent as you had
been?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we were draining pretty well,
because for a year we didn't make any money, on our trip.
Mr. Jenner. I am not criticizing. All I am doing is seeking the
facts.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.
Mr. Jenner. Well——
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not enough to be charitable.
Mr. Jenner. By the way, your husband, he is a fine geologist and
petroleum engineer. He is not a man who likes to concentrate on
business, finances, is he?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I would say he is pretty good with
money. I am the one—I made money too easily, so I squandered
money. He doesn't. But you see I always had a steady income. He
doesn't have a steady income. He has an assignment for 2 or 3
weeks, he has very good money for it, and then we never know
when it is going to come in.
He may have within a year two or three fantastic things—go to
Ghana, go somewhere else, and he makes quite a lot of money.
But then maybe a year that he has nothing at all coming in. So
he learned when he has something to hold onto it.
Mr. Jenner. So there were periods when his financial situation was
good, so he was high?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. That is how we took our trip,
because we were very fortunate before our trip—he had an
assignment in Ghana, and he made some money, and I was making
very good money, so we thought we can afford it. Besides he almost
lost his mind. We had to go on that trip.
Mr. Jenner. Then there were valleys, financially, in which you
were not as affluent?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Of course.
Mr. Jenner. But you folks were at no time wealthy people?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Real wealthy, no.
Mr. Jenner. You made——
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I could have been if I saved the money,
but I didn't.
Mr. Jenner. You made a comfortable living, and that is about it?
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is it.
Mr. Jenner. But at this particular time, you were not in a position
to assist the Oswalds financially in any material sense?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly; none at all.
Mr. Jenner. But you were in a position that you could afford them
time?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And attention?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Not them—actually with Marina,
because we couldn't do much for Oswald—just talk to a couple of
people about him, and maybe get him a job. But even the job he
had—I don't know who got it—I think it was an agency that got him
the job he had.
Mr. Jenner. At Leslie Welding?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the name of the firm. He
worked in a darkroom.
Mr. Jenner. That was later.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't even know the name of it.
Mr. Jenner. You are not clear in your mind, I take it, that when
you first met the Oswalds; you don't know whether you went to their
home or——
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I really don't remember.
And, believe me, I had enough time to think about it. I was trying to
remember every little detail that can be useful. I cannot still
remember exactly how it came about—whether they were brought
to our house. I don't think we drove and got them for the first time.
Maybe we took them back, you know, to Fort Worth. It could be. I
don't know.
Of course, they had the baby with them. They always had to
bring the baby—couldn't leave the baby with anyone.
 Mr. Jenner. But in due course you did enter their home in Fort
Worth?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I never entered their home in Fort Worth.
George, I think, did once. George walked in, because Lee was
asleep, I think, when we brought Marina—so he maybe walked in
the house—because he went out to the door. I never did. They lived
somewhere—there was a tremendous store, Montgomery Ward or
something.
Mr. Jenner. Sears?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I think it was Montgomery Ward. I
don't remember. That is where they lived. It was a miserable-looking
house. That is what I saw. A wooden building.
Mr. Jenner. You found them to be in destitute circumstances, did
you?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I wouldn't say they were completely
starving, but they were quite miserable—quite, quite miserable, you
know. Even if they were not destitute, the personality that Lee had
would make anybody miserable to live with.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Tell us about Lee Oswald.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. What I think of the fellow?
Mr. Jenner. Your impressions of him, what you thought of him.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Disagreeable. He was very, very
disagreeable, and disappointed. He is like a puppy dog that
everybody kicked. And he was sort of withdrawn within himself. And
his greatest objection was that people helped them too much, they
were showering things on Marina. Marina had a hundred dresses
given to her. The baby had a crib. My daughter didn't have it when I
came to the United States, and I didn't have one-hundredth of what
Marina had, because I didn't know anybody, and I didn't want to
know anybody when I came over. I was in such circumstances. So,
anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because Marina was
throwing it into his face.
 Mr. Jenner. She was?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely—see people, how nice they
are? And she is always telling me—the people are nice, giving all
these things, and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with
the people. And I can understand why, and maybe I was the only
one that understood him, while he was offensive, because that hurt
him. He could never give her what the people were showering on
her. So that was very difficult for him, no matter how hard he
worked—and he worked very hard. He worked overtime, he used to
come in at 11 o'clock, she said, at night, and when he come home,
he started reading again. So he was not running around.
He didn't drink, he didn't smoke. He was just hard working, but
a very difficult personality.
And usually offensive at people because people had an offensive
attitude to him.
I don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we
did, he could have killed us.
Mr. Jenner. What did you do?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife
physically. We saw her with a black eye once.
Mr. Jenner. And did you talk to him and to her about it?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own
kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up,
you cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such
things to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live
with each other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you
should separate, and see, maybe you really don't love each other."
Marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she
separate from Oswald—what is she going to do? She doesn't know
the language, she had nobody to turn to. I understand they didn't
get along with Oswald's family.
 Mr. Jenner. Now, this is what you learned in talking with them?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes; through them actually, by facing
them.
Mr. Jenner. I want you to identify your sources of information.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.
Mr. Jenner. You learned through Marina and Oswald, also, that
they didn't get along well with their——
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I cannot say through them, because
maybe people talked about it, you know. She couldn't live in her
sister-in-law's home, they didn't get along. And I understand that
later on somebody mentioned that the reason was that she was just
too lazy. She slept in the morning.
Mr. Jenner. What was your impression?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She is lazy. You see, there are people that
actually are no good, but still they have something very nice about
them, that you cannot really be furious with them or mad, you really
can't. She is lazy, and I know it, because she stayed once overnight.
Mr. Jenner. Where? At your home?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; with the baby. And I tell you—if I
stay with somebody overnight, I will jump up the first thing in the
morning, see what I can do to help, knowing I will be doing
everything.
She didn't. She slept. I actually had to waken her up. She did
the same thing—she stayed in our daughter's home overnight.
Because when her teeth were pulled, she was not in condition to go
back. She was the same way—very lazy. And I just couldn't
understand it—a young person. Maybe she was ill. We talked about
it—maybe we have just too much energy. For a young girl to sleep
late, and not to be active.
The proof of her laziness is that she didn't do much about
learning English, in spite I gave her the records, and we gave her
one of our little phonographs. I had beautiful records to learn
English—I bought them in New York when I arrived.
Mr. Jenner. Is it that she was lazy that she didn't pursue learning
English, or did Oswald object to her learning English?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. According to her Oswald objected, and he
also told us himself that he wants to speak with her in Russian,
because he doesn't want to forget Russian.
But then we got onto Oswald.
Mr. Jenner. Tell me about it now.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He didn't want to forget his Russian. That
was his reason—not to let his wife learn English—because she was
the only person he could speak Russian to.
Mr. Jenner. He could still speak Russian to her, even though she
learned English, couldn't he?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Of course, that is what we told him. We
said, "You are crippling her, she has to learn English. She cannot live
in this country without the language, she cannot do anything."
He was strange in many, many ways.
But he never appeared to be violent or anything. He was a little
violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking
your wife and child away. That is the only time he showed real
nastiness.
Mr. Jenner. Please.
You reached the point where you and your husband took Marina
and the child out of the home and away from Oswald against his
objections.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Against his objections. Actually, we talked
him into doing it peacefully.
Mr. Jenner. And where did you take Marina and June?
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We took Marina and June to the house of
Meller.
Mr. Jenner. Anna Meller?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Anna Meller, yes. Very poor people—they
put the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. That is
how nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be
temporary until we find another place where she could live with
somebody for 2 or 3 months. We were trying to put her with Ford,
with Declan Ford's wife, because she had a big house, and she had a
newborn baby. But she is not a very easygoing person. She refused.
I was furious with her that she refused, because she really could
take Marina very nicely.
And I believe finally she was talked into it, and she had Marina
maybe for a little while with her. I don't know. I am not sure.
Mr. Jenner. In October or November?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe, yes. I don't even know.
Mr. Jenner. But why did you take Marina from the home?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Because he was beating her, and we
didn't think it was right. We thought that a separation for them—
they will decide whether they really love each other, they cannot live
without each other, or they forget about each other. But that was
absolutely useless to continue to live the way they were.
In fact, Bouhe had the same idea, but he was afraid to do it. He
was always afraid of Lee. Naturally, being a bachelor—perhaps,
Bouhe's type of person is afraid of his own shadow—there are
people like that.
Mr. Jenner. Well, he is an older man.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think he saw a lot in his life, maybe.
Mr. Jenner. He is not a man of great physical stature, like your
husband?
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is it. Lots of things contribute to the
personality.
Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, you had discussions with
both Marina and Lee about their difficulties?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we had them at the same time, in
the same room.
Mr. Jenner. Now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to
any—as to her dissatisfaction?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. What was the reasons what?
Mr. Jenner. What were the reasons she said why she was
dissatisfied with him?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, there was quite a few reasons. And I
tell you—it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to
speak so, how you say it—so boldy, about sex, for instance. I was
shocked by it, you know—because in my times, even I was twice as
old as she.
Mr. Jenner. Will you please tell me what she said?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy
her. She just—and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay
enough attention to her.
Mr. Jenner. That was one reason?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is one of the main reasons, yes.
And the second reason, he was cruel with her—for instance, she
likes to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. Any little
argument or something—like once something—she didn't fill his
bathtub, he beat her for it. And, also, he didn't like for her to have a
drink of wine. She liked wine very much. She wasn't a drunk or
anything, but she likes to drink wine. And he would object to that,
too. And that was their main disagreements.
 And then with the baby, he was absolutely fanatical about the
child. He loved that child. You should see him looking at the child, he
just changed completely. He thought that she was not too good with
the child. The child was already spoiled to no end. Every time the
child makes a noise, she picked it up. If she is not there in a second
to pick the child up, Lee is after her—why is the baby crying? And
the baby is extremely difficult, because it doesn't know anybody but
her or Lee. Nobody could pick her up. And she is constantly with her.
She had the child with her all the time, from our observations. She
just couldn't take it. It was very, very difficult. And still at the same
time, she didn't do much to free herself from it.
Mr. Jenner. What were Marina's personal habits? Was she clean
and neat? Did she keep her home clean and neat? Or did her
laziness spill over into those areas?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, it was halfway, because it seems to
be neat, and still not very—she was not a woman to arrange the
home or make a home. I don't think so. And I don't know enough
about it, because they had so few things, and they were so poor. So
what can you make a home out of, nothing. You cannot really judge.
You cannot. I am sure if she has things to do it with, I am sure she
will.
At that particular time, she could not. She didn't have enough
things to make a home. The apartments they were living in in Dallas
were miserable, very, very poor.
Mr. Jenner. Give me your opinion of——
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. One thing I want to tell you.
When they were planning to move in Dallas, from Fort Worth,
when I took her—the baby to the clinic, I was trying to find for them
a little apartment somewhere closer to us, within the same area,
University Park, or somewhere, knowing that I cannot race every
time she needs something with the car to help them.
Lee insisted for some particular reason to live very, very far from
everybody, from all these people. They lived in Oak Cliff—God knows
where from us. Maybe he didn't want it because he didn't want other
people to put their nose in his home. I don't think he had anything
against us because we were with Marina. But I don't think he liked
very much that Bouhe was showering her with things, and the other
people give her so many things. Maybe that is why.
Why did he live so far?
We were very mad about it, too.
I said, "For God sakes, if we are to help them, I cannot race to
Oak Cliff to help them with this or that"—if she had to go to the
doctor. Why wouldn't they take a little place near us, it will be much
easier for me to help her.
He had some reasons to live far away.
I don't know if anybody else mentioned that to you. That was
everybody's impression. For some particular reason, he moved all
the way out.
Mr. Jenner. Tell me of her personality.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think I told you as much as I can. At the
same time, in spite she is lazy—well, it is her upbringing, that is the
way she was brought up. But she was a very, very pleasant girl. And
she loved life, and she loved the United States, absolutely. We would
drive on the streets, she would just—oh, that is the United States.
That is maybe why I like her, because she give me the
impression she felt like I felt when I came in. She said she was
always dreaming to come to the United States. She looked at those
pictures with big, big houses and everything.
Did I tell you how she met Oswald, according to her?
Mr. Jenner. What did she say?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was in the town of Minsk. There was
some kind of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good.
And she saw that house and thought, "How wonderful if I just go
there to visit in that apartment house."
 And Lee happened to be living there. And I think Lee was sick.
And she sort of nursed him out, or something like that. That is how
they met.
And I don't know—but it is very possible that she was very much
influential in making them come back.
Mr. Jenner. Come to the United States?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Come to the United States.
Mr. Jenner. That was the impression you obtained from her?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.
On the other hand, he was also disappointed. He wasn't as
excited as he was when he went over there, from the impressions
we get from him.
Mr. Jenner. From your contacts with him, you had the impression
he had been disappointed in Russia?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I asked him, "Why did you come back, if
you were such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?"
And as she told me, "In the American Ambassador's face in
Moscow."
He said, "Here is your passport, now I am going to be a Soviet
citizen."
And I said, "How come you are back?"
He said, "I didn't find what I was looking for."
Mr. Jenner. Oswald said that?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was Oswald's answer. "I didn't find
what I was looking for."
So, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be
obnoxious, and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and
learned the hard way, burned himself, and decided to come back,
and our Government was wonderful to help him at the time. And he
was very conscientious about paying the debt, very conscientious.
He paid it back, I think, the first thing, out of the first salary, in spite
how hard it was for them to live. Those are the things.
And I don't know of anybody saying anything good about him.
And that made me a little mad. Nobody said anything good about
him. He had a lot of good qualities. He had a lot of terrible qualities,
but certainly to compare him with that horrible Ruby—Oswald had a
lot of good qualities. And if people would be kinder to him, maybe,
you know—maybe he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do
anything like that. I don't know whether he did or not, anyway. But
he would not be involved in it.
But I have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed,
pushed, and she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging.
Mr. Jenner. You found her to be a nagger?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; oh, yes; she ribbed him even in front
of us.
Mr. Jenner. She did?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She did. She ribbed him so, that if I would
ever speak to my husband that way we would not last long. I would
not do it. Because I could see——
Mr. Jenner. What did she say? You see——
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, big hero, or look at that big shot,
something like that.
Mr. Jenner. When you say she ribbed him in front of us, that
doesn't mean anything to us. That is a conclusion.
What did she say to him?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Let me try to remember exactly. Don't
forget, I am telling right now impressions. It is very difficult to
remember exact words. But certain things led to leave that
impression in my mind.
 Mr. Jenner. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, it happens that you and
George, having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of
people you are, you saw more of the Oswalds than anybody else.
And what I am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your
impressions, but how you came by them.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. But what I want to tell you—I don't
think it is correct. We didn't see them more than anybody else. In
fact, we saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us—she
stayed once overnight. And they have been very, very seldom at our
house, very, very seldom. I cannot exactly tell how many times. But
you can count it on your fingers how many times. And usually it was
when finally I find the time and I said come over and I will make
dinner for you, or something like that, because I knew they were not
eating very well.
He didn't care for it at all, but she did. She liked to eat well, and
good things. So that was the only occasion we saw them.
So I think other people saw them even more. For instance, the
people that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and
visit her.
Mr. Jenner. Well, you were more direct with her and with him,
you and your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak
his mind, and Oswald respected your husband.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He did. He respected him, and he
respected me. And maybe that is what makes the difference with the
rest of the crowd. He never was respectful. Once, as I said, he was a
little—showed a little violence, and he said he will break all the
baby's toys and tear her dresses if we take her away from him.
I said, "Lee, where will that get you? If you really love Marina
that is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." And
he sort of boiled and boiled. He sat quietly, you know. And he said,
all right, he would not do it.
 Mr. Jenner. Now, I asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and
you related them. Did she twit him about his inability to make
enough money so that she could live better?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. That was one complaint. Another
complaint, sexwise, he wasn't satisfactory for her. In fact, she was
almost sick that she wasn't getting enough sex, which I never heard
of before, I didn't know such things can happen to people, you
know.
We saw, ourselves, he was a little difficult—for instance, with the
baby. I also objected that he didn't let her smoke. After all, she is
supposed to be a grown woman. He was definitely domineering—it
has to be just like he said and that is it. He always had a feeling that
he is the boss, and she has to—just nothing, just wipe the floor with
her. This man. So we objected to that.
Mr. Jenner. Now, you were going to tell me the basis on which
you formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. You used the
term "ribbing." This was not jocular, was it—not joking? It was
irritating?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was irritating. That he was a big shot,
reading, reading, reading.
Mr. Jenner. Would say that in your presence?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. She would ridicule him, in other words?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, in a way, yes. She said things that
will hurt men's pride. That definitely was.
Mr. Jenner. Try and recall more of that.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to think what else she said.
Also, she objected violently that he was rude to the people that
helped her. That was very important. Because—and I know—I told
you the reasons why he objected to that, which are understandable,
also.
 But still, on the other hand, for instance, one incident was—I
remember the Clarks invited them for dinner, and Lee answered the
phone, and he said, when they invited him for dinner, we have other
plans. He probably didn't want to go there. That is all it was. But you
don't talk like that to people. So Marina objected to that. She told
that to me.
There were several other occasions similar to that. For instance,
he could not stand George Bouhe. He just could not stand him. And,
in a way, I don't blame him. I can't stand him, either—that type of a
person. He is okay, he is supposed to be a friend. But I don't like
that type of personality. He absolutely could not stand him.
You know, some people do charity, and they expect for you to
kiss their hands for it. And some people do charity, and they are very
glad to do it and forget about it, don't expect anything. This is the
kind of charity I believe in. Bouhe likes to help, and then he keeps
those people like slaves, he is a little king, and they do anything for
him after that. But Oswald didn't.
And that is why there was tremendous antagonism there. Bouhe
asked Marina never to come to his house at all, because he was
afraid that Oswald will follow her and will cause him a scandal, or
God knows what. He was that kind of person. I think that was the
main thing, that Oswald was rude to people helping him.
Mr. Jenner. Did Oswald ever talk about his political views in your
presence?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In which way? Overall political, or any
particular incidents?
Mr. Jenner. Politics with a capital P. His views on government.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think definitely he was a Marxist,
ideologist Marxist. I don't think he was a Communist from the way I
would understand a Communist. We didn't know if he did or he
didn't belong to any party at all. I don't think he even belonged to a
party in Russia, because that was—oh, this is very important.
 His objection—the things that he didn't like in Russia was those
horrible meetings, constant meetings, party meetings. He said that
you have to work, and you have to go to those meetings—they drive
people crazy, those party meetings, worker meetings. They have to
go and listen to speeches and bla, bla, bla. So I don't think he was—
according to that, I don't think he was interested in a party, or
belonging to anything.
It was a complete surprise to us when we learned after all this
that he was actually involved in doing something for Castro, selling
leaflets or something, in New Orleans.
Mr. Jenner. Passing them out?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely. Because we never had——
Mr. Jenner. You were in Haiti by that time?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; we saw them last time Easter,
1963.
Mr. Jenner. Now, something occurred in Easter, 1963 when you
went to visit them?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Was this Easter Sunday or the day after?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, to my best recollection it was
Saturday before Easter. By the way, the first time they talked to us
about it, I completely mixed all the dates. I thought it was in the fall.
But it was the day I remember when we come over with the big pink
rabbit for the baby.
Mr. Jenner. Did you arrive there during the day?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; it was in the evening. I think we were
playing tennis, and then we were somewhere, and then I decided
we will be busy tomorrow, and I wanted to take the rabbit to the
baby.
 And we came over late at night. It was 10 o'clock, or maybe
later. And I remember they gave us something to drink.
Mr. Jenner. You arrived there. Were they—had they retired for the
night?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think they were halfway in bed already,
because the house was dark. I remember we banged on the door. It
was dark.
Mr. Jenner. And Lee came to the door?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember who came to the door,
Marina or Lee.
Mr. Jenner. They turned the light on. And where were they living
then?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was their last apartment—not
Elsbeth, but the other one. I have the address, Elsbeth address. But
the other address I don't have. It is just around the corner.
Mr. Jenner. 214?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the address.
Mr. Jenner. Was it upstairs or downstairs?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Upstairs. There was a little terrace, and a
big tree growing right next to the terrace.
Mr. Jenner. Had you been there before?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr. Jenner. That is the first time you had ever been there?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. Maybe I was. I don't
think so.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so.
Mr. Jenner. You got there. Now, just relax——
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to think hard, because every
little fact could be important.
Mr. Jenner. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything
that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You
came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and
you and your husband went in the home?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Then, go on. Tell me about it.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And I believe from what I remember
George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina
was showing me the house—that is why I said it looks like it was the
first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been
there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the
closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun
doing over there?
Mr. Jenner. You say——
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. A rifle.
Mr. Jenner. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In the closet, right in the beginning. It
wasn't hidden or anything.
Mr. Jenner. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle
that you saw?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It looks very much like it.
Mr. Jenner. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. You want me to show you how it was
leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle
was leaning something like that.
 Mr. Jenner. Right against the wall?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and the closet was square. I said,
what is this?
Mr. Jenner. It was this rifle?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know. It looks very much like it,
because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it
was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road,
we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw
something here.
Mr. Jenner. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because
when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the
closet—you saw a rifle?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. That surprised you, first?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Of course.
Mr. Jenner. And then other things that arrested your attention, as
I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.
Mr. Jenner. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because
it was something new and strange to you?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You were accustomed to your husband having
weapons?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip.
But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.
Mr. Jenner. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you
have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not
seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle
with the bolt action that this has?
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt
action, but I would not know.
Mr. Jenner. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking
out?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't recall. The only thing there
was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or
something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth,
plain rifle. This is for sure.
Mr. Jenner. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were
you concerned about it?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I just asked what on earth is he doing
with a rifle?
Mr. Jenner. What did she say?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I
said, "Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When
they lived in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at
leaves and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny,
because I personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I
adore to shoot at a target, target shooting.
Mr. Jenner. Skeet?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I just love it.
Mr. Jenner. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say
he is going in a public park and shooting leaves?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. But he was taking the baby out. He goes
with her, and that was his amusement.
Mr. Jenner. Did she say that?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing
in the park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any
time I go to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting.
So I didn't find anything strange.
 Mr. Jenner. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these
amusement parks?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Little .22?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know what it was.
Mr. Jenner. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be
walking around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like
this, shooting leaves?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I
had no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle?
Or just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it?
Mr. Jenner. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I didn't know that. What caliber is it?
Mr. Jenner. 6.5.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That I don't understand. We had 16—
shotgun with us.
Mr. Jenner. Had anything been said up to this point in your
acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a
shotgun, in Russia?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr. Jenner. No discussion of any hunting in Russia?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In fact, we never even knew that he was
a sharpshooter or something. We never knew about it.
Mr. Jenner. No discussion of that?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No discussion at all. She just said, we are
so short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. This is what
she told me. And you know what happened after that.
Mr. Jenner. Please. Tell me everything she said on this occasion.
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think the most important thing is, that
crazy lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other
things.
Mr. Jenner. And she also said he took it out in the park and was
shooting it?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Something like that; yes.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some
other part of the house?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only
two rooms. And then I returned back, and told George—do you
know what they have in the closet? I came back to the room, where
George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what
they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And
George, of course, with his sense of humor—Walker was shot at a
few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at
Walker by any chance?" And we started laughing our heads off, big
joke, big George's joke. And later on, according to the newspapers,
he admitted that he shot at Walker.
Mr. Jenner. Now, when George made that remark in the presence
of Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice
any change——
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We were not looking for any. I wish I
would know.
Mr. Jenner. Please—I want only your reaction. Your husband has
told me his. You noticed nothing?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I didn't notice anything.
Mr. Jenner. Were you looking to see whether he had a change of
expression?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; none at all. It was just a joke.
Mr. Jenner. As far as you were concerned, it was a joke?
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Sure.
Mr. Jenner. But you did not look at him to see if he reacted?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't take it seriously enough to
look at him.
Mr. Jenner. You didn't?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I didn't.
Mr. Jenner. How long did you remain after that at their home?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not very long. I think we went on the
terrace. And I don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft
drink, or not. And we left. She got me some roses. They had a big
rose tree right by the staircase. And she got me a lot of roses, and
we went home. The baby was asleep.
Mr. Jenner. Did you see the Oswalds on any subsequent
occasion?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr. Jenner. Never saw them?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I don't think so. What
day was Easter, by the way? Do you remember—1963?
Mr. Jenner. No; I don't.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Because the 19th of April, we left.
Mr. Jenner. You left for New York on the 19th of April?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Nineteenth, from what I recall. I think so.
Mr. Jenner. I think Easter was late that year, but I am not certain.
In any event, it was the day before Easter?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter.
Mr. Jenner. When you left for New York, you were in New York a
few weeks, a couple of weeks?
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We spent about 6 weeks between New
York, Washington, Philadelphia.
Mr. Jenner. And you returned to Dallas in May?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. End of May.
Mr. Jenner. Did you call the Oswalds?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; we didn't. We heard that they were
already gone. I wanted to see them before we went to Haiti. But I
understood that they were gone, or they were going. I had no time.
So we didn't get in touch with them. But we had a card from them
from New Orleans, with their address. But I don't think we ever
wrote to them. I don't remember writing. We were going to send
them a Christmas card.
Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall an occasion in February of 1963
when there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or
apartment of Everett Glover?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you and your husband take part in that?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we were showing our movies to
Everett's friends.
Mr. Jenner. How did that party come about?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you know, we have this quite
unusual film, and quite a few people interested to see it. And, in
fact, we showed that film—the film so many times, at clubs and
gatherings. And he had still quite a few friends that wanted to see it,
and we had a couple of friends. So we decided to have it. And then
he mentioned he knew a woman, Ruth Paine.
Mr. Jenner. You are talking about Glover?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and he said that would be very nice.
I was sort of looking for American couples to introduce Lee and
Marina to American people—not to Russian refugees—to get her out
of that. So he mentioned that it would be very nice for Marina to
meet this girl, and it was. She was a young woman, she was
interested in Russian.
Mr. Jenner. What was her name?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Ruth Paine. And that we thought was very
good, because she could help Marina in English and Marina would
help her in Russian, that it would work very well. From what I
understand later on from the papers, she did help a lot, Marina. She
did a lot for her.
Mr. Jenner. Did you talk to Marina about this in advance?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I think maybe I did. I
don't remember. I really don't remember.
Mr. Jenner. A few weeks before this, Marina and Lee had visited
in your home, isn't that correct?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Very possible, very possible. I don't
remember.
Mr. Jenner. Had you known Ruth Paine at all prior to this time?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Met her the first time that evening, and
we liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and
wonderful person. I thought that would be terrific for Marina to be
close to somebody because I didn't have time. I just couldn't, and I
don't have any patience. When I see somebody is clicking right away
I respond to advice, but she wasn't, you know. She was too slow,
and we have too much problems with our own children.
Mr. Jenner. Who is too slow?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Marina. We had too many problems with
our own children, and I was just tired of it, you know. After all, she
was not my child. I did everything I could, so let somebody else take
over and do something else because I was too busy, and we were
planning this trip. George—through next month to Haiti actually to
seal this contract. We had our heads busy with other things.
 Mr. Jenner. What occurred during that evening? The movie was
shown?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We just showed the movie and discussed
it, and the people asked different questions, peculiar questions
about the life of Indians—or——
Mr. Jenner. About your trip?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. About our trip, and that was all.
Mr. Jenner. Weren't these people interested in Marina and
Oswald?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Some were.
Mr. Jenner. Who was present?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what I recall at that particular time,
it was just Ruth Paine that we noticed was the most interested in
her. I don't even remember who was there besides. I don't
remember who was there.
There were some young people from a mobile research
laboratory that worked with Everett.
Mr. Jenner. From Everett Glover's place?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; there were people there. I do
believe, I think we invited the person that owned the apartment
house. This time we showed movies twice at Everett's house, I
believe. I think we showed it twice, and we invited the people that
own the apartment house because they were interested in that.
Mr. Jenner. What are their names?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. She is teaching in a
university, in Dallas University now. They like to travel a lot, too. I
am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from
Everett.
Mr. Jenner. Did Lee have a good time at this party, or meeting?
 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know, because it was always dark
when the movies were shown, so I wasn't observing anybody.
Mr. Jenner. Did you bring Lee and Marina to the party?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't believe so. I think somebody else
got them, because I think we had people, out of town guests, and in
fact we came in very late, I think. We arrived quite late that day.
Mr. Jenner. You arrived at the party late?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; once we were late. I forgot which
showing it was. We had a couple of people out of town. We invited
them for dinner, and then we brought them over.
Mr. Jenner. That was the only purpose of the meeting that you
have indicated?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The only purpose of?
Mr. Jenner. The meeting, the only purpose was the one you have
indicated?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you attend a combination Christmas and New
Year's party in December of 1963 at the Fords?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the date.
Mr. Jenner. 1963.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the date, but there was a
party, and we attended it.
Mr. Jenner. Please, when you say you don't know the dates, was
it in December? Was it in the holiday period?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was in the holiday period, but was it
December or was it early January, I don't remember.
Mr. Jenner. And who was at that party?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. There were quite a lot of people from this
Russian colony and among them there was a little Japanese girl. Do
you know about Yaeko?
Mr. Jenner. Y-a-e-k-o?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Did you know Yaeko before?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we knew Yaeko before.
Mr. Jenner. What was her last name?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember her last name because
we always called her Yaeko.
Mr. Jenner. Where was she working?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know whether she was working at
the time or not, but she was imported by some American family. She
came with the family. She is supposed to be from a very fine
Japanese family. She was wealthy. It was strange she worked almost
as a servant in some family. I know she had only one day off,
because I remember when we wanted to invite her it was only one
day, Thursday, that we could invite her. Then she did some work
with Neiman Marcus.
Mr. Jenner. Neiman Marcus?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Then she was a musician. She played the
Japanese special long, long instrument, and she was playing with
the Dallas Symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, Neiman
Marcus gives exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was,
that fall, and she was participating in it. That is what we know about
Yaeko. But then we heard that she was in New York.
To tell you frankly I never trusted Yaeko. I thought there was
something fishy, maybe because I was brought up with Japanese,
you know, and I knew what treachery it is, you know. I just
somehow—she was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the
way she was floating around, you know, and everything. There is
another strange thing happened, too, with that Yaeko.
 Mr. Jenner. Involving the Oswalds?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Tell us.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was very funny because they
practically spent all evening together at that party, and Marina was
furious, of course, about it. And the party that brought Yoico to the
party was furious about it, too, and I don't blame him for it. And
from what I understand, Marina told me that Oswald saw Yaeko
after, which was very unusual, because I don't think Oswald wanted
to see anyone, let's put it that way. He would rather just sit by
himself and—locked in a house, not to see anyone. And, in fact,
Marina was jealous of it, from Yaeko. She was the only person we
know that Oswald really liked.
Mr. Jenner. Can you recall the names of the family with whom
Yaeko—by whom Yaeko was employed?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; but I can find out very easily.
Mr. Jenner. How?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Through Dallas. They know the people
that actually introduced Yaeko. It will be Henry Rogatz who knows
Yaeko very well.
Mr. Jenner. Spell that, please.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Two people who can give you everything
about Yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the
time. Henry Rogatz, also in——
Mr. Jenner. Henry Rogatz, R-o-g-a-t-z, and Lev Aronson, A-r-o-n-
s-o-n?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and I believe I have Lev's address in
my phone book, if I need it. I can phone you. I don't know if we
have Henry's address now. They are both very nice people, charming
people.
 Mr. Jenner. Would you do this. Call my hotel, The Madison?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Call later on?
Mr. Jenner. And leave a message at my hotel as to Mr. Aronson's
address and telephone number, if you have it?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and maybe we have Henry's address.
Maybe somebody sent it to us because we asked. We didn't have it
with us when we left. We just moved. Voshinin liked Yaeko.
Mr. Jenner. Voshinin?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I think Henry can tell you much
more than anybody.
Mr. Jenner. How, otherwise, did Oswald act at this Christmas
party. He paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to——
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
Mr. Jenner. To the Japanese girl?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; what did they talk about, I don't
have the slightest idea. But everybody remarked and we were
laughing about it. We were teasing Marina how he had a little
Japanese girl now, you now. That was just as fun, of course, you
know. But evidently they not only talked because she said he saw
her later and he liked her. That is what she told me. He really liked
Yaeko.
Mr. Jenner. Did you bring the Oswalds to the party?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think we brought them. In fact, I had a
fight almost to get them to that party because Cathy didn't want
them and we weren't giving any parties. We gave a big party before,
and I wanted Marina to be at some Christmas party because it was
her first Christmas in the United States, she could have some kind of
fun, so I talked her into it finally. She objected, because she could
not bring the baby because the baby would wake up.
 I said okay, I'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. So
I have another friend which I talked into babysitting for the baby. So
we went, we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and
then we took them to the party, and then we went back to the
friend, picked up the baby. It was midnight or whatever it was, and
took them back.
Mr. Jenner. Earlier in raising this Christmas party matter with you,
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, I stated that it was in December of 1963.
That was a slip of the tongue, and it was in December of 1962,
because in December of 1963 you were in Haiti.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was after this.
Mr. Jenner. Of course, it couldn't be December of 1963.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He was dead already.
Mr. Jenner. By that time, he was not alive. You took the Oswalds
home that evening?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe we did. We just had to, because
we had to go pick up the baby. The baby was crying all evening.
That poor woman was up with her all the time. It was just
impossible, that baby was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her
mother, or with Lee, because so few people came to see them. They
lived like mice, you know. That is why we were so sorry for them.
I wanted for them to meet American couples to get out of it. We
tried to get Marina friendly with George's daughter because she had
a little boy, too.
Mr. Jenner. With whose daughter?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. With George's daughter.
Mr. Jenner. Alexandra?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand
her. She thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is
true she doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she
was lazy, also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that.
 Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean.
Alexandra was complaining about her. So Alexandra—it didn't hit off
exactly with Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to
visit them after, and I think they helped them to move, even.
Mr. Jenner. Gary Taylor?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul,
a good boy, you know. He is nothing at all.
Mr. Jenner. You mean he is not a man of attainment?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really
good, so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just
a child's prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I
was sorry for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to
start with. I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped
them quite some and maybe the kids consoled them after.
Mr. Jenner. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband
that she sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United
States?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so. It is just impressions we
had.
Mr. Jenner. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did
anything come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have
Marina return to Russia?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. None at all.
Mr. Jenner. That is entirely new to you?
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I
shouldn't ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious
about the whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10
times more than we ever knew about them.
Mr. Jenner. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the
press, as well.
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